TRIGGERnometry - TRIGGERnometry DESTROYS TRIGGERnometry

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:09.960 I'm Constantin Kissin.

00:00:11.280 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:00:16.900 We have neither for you today because it's me interviewing Francis and Francis interviewing me.

00:00:21.880 So welcome to the show. How are you doing, Francis?

00:00:24.320 I'm very good. How are you?

00:00:25.540 I'm good as well. It's been a long time since we've done one of these.

00:00:29.300 So we did one which we put out to the main list only,

00:00:32.340 which was probably about a year ago.

00:00:33.780 And then we did a Trigonometry Destroyer Trigonometry

00:00:36.140 probably at our last studio.

00:00:38.840 Yep, which was over a year ago now.

00:00:40.820 A lot over a year ago when we did it.

00:00:43.180 It was probably two years ago now.

00:00:44.940 So it's the state of the disunion or whatever is going on now.

00:00:50.020 What have you made of the last year? 0.99

00:00:52.660 Well, we're all fucked, aren't we? 0.99

00:00:53.940 Get the antidepressants out for the lads, everybody. 1.00

00:00:57.000 Yeah, just get them all out.

00:00:58.040 You're going to need loads of them.

00:00:59.160 No, I find it actually very worrying what's been happening,

00:01:02.140 how we've actually seen a nation simply capitulate

00:01:06.040 to the COVID regulations.

00:01:08.040 And also as well, how we seem to have been fed a diet of fear

00:01:12.100 by this government.

00:01:13.780 And as a result of that, we have started blindly following the rules

00:01:17.840 even when the rules don't make any sense.

00:01:20.840 Like, for example, why is it, now, as we film this now,

00:01:24.820 in the Euro 2020 final,

00:01:28.100 60,000 people are going to be allowed into Wembley Stadium,

00:01:31.660 but parents can't go and watch their kids during sports day. 1.00

00:01:35.660 Yeah, but the kids are shit. 1.00

00:01:36.840 Yeah, that is true. 1.00

00:01:37.800 Nobody really wants to watch their kids.

00:01:39.880 No, look, I'm joking, but you make a very good point.

00:01:42.980 And more than that, we've got this thing,

00:01:44.860 as we're recording,

00:01:45.940 this will go out a week from when we're recording, most likely.

00:01:49.220 It's not just 60,000 people in the stadium,

00:01:52.120 which you can sort of start to go,

00:01:54.940 well, they're unlocking the country.

00:01:56.760 But they've got these 2,500 UEFA VIPs

00:02:01.680 who are coming over from other countries.

00:02:03.300 They're not subject to quarantine

00:02:05.100 and they're just being allowed in.

00:02:08.720 Yeah, but they're rich.

00:02:10.260 Yeah, and powerful.

00:02:11.780 And the truth is they're just better.

00:02:14.240 Absolutely.

00:02:15.140 They're better than you, better than me,

00:02:16.940 and they're definitely better than you.

00:02:18.460 So what you're currently seeing

00:02:20.640 is a double standards in society.

00:02:23.900 And somehow we're still being told to protect the NHS,

00:02:27.460 we're still being told to socially distance,

00:02:30.140 and it is deeply, deeply unfair.

00:02:32.340 And I feel incredibly sorry for those people

00:02:35.140 whose businesses are being affected as a result,

00:02:37.640 people who've lost their businesses and their livelihoods,

00:02:40.540 when the rules no longer make sense

00:02:43.560 and they don't apply to certain echelons of society.

00:02:47.600 You have to wonder what's going on and what's going to happen.

00:02:50.640 Now, Boris said, I think it's mid-July.

00:02:53.520 I can't remember the exact date that we're going to be on.

00:02:56.000 19th.

00:02:56.340 July the 19th.

00:02:57.900 Do you think we're going to be unlocking again on July the 19th?

00:03:00.180 I actually do.

00:03:01.360 In fact, we may be even unlocking earlier than that, in my opinion.

00:03:05.140 But I certainly think we'll be out of it by July the 19th

00:03:08.320 because it seems like, yes, numbers of infections are going up,

00:03:11.900 but hospitalisations are going up very slowly.

00:03:14.440 Very few people are dying.

00:03:15.800 Today, as we record this, 10 times more of the data has come out

00:03:19.940 for the last few months, 10 times more people have been dying from flu and pneumonia than COVID.

00:03:25.360 So I do think the government will unlock. The thing that concerns me, and we're, again,

00:03:30.580 we're recording this in the immediate aftermath of what is now being described on our locals as

00:03:35.320 the black-pilled stream, where I dropped a lot of truth bullets about what I think is going to be

00:03:39.840 happening. And just to summarize that maybe in a slightly negative way, what I think is essentially

00:03:45.580 lockdown is now a permanent tool in the public policy toolbox and what that means is whenever

00:03:53.020 anything comes up that is likely to threaten some people's lives this will be pulled out of the

00:03:59.580 toolbox and applied so uh the flu i mean the flu is being predicted now as being more dangerous

00:04:06.140 this winter than covid which actually does make sense because we've all been locked inside we

00:04:10.780 haven't been mixing we haven't been mingling our immune systems are depressed yeah so yeah that's

00:04:17.000 probably gonna happen i've been mingling uh but no seriously though like uh i think the the the

00:04:23.200 flu will be considered a bigger threat as we know the nhs is goes through a winter crisis almost

00:04:28.960 every year uh and so what i think will happen is we are now going to start to see people demanding

00:04:35.180 lockdowns they'll be renamed into something like restrictions or temporary annual you know

00:04:40.480 nhs protection measures or something it will be rephrased in some kind of orwellian way

00:04:45.760 and then you will have a lockdown almost every time anything like that happens and from there

00:04:50.800 it's very easy to see how you go further and further down the line i mean uh we know for a

00:04:55.260 fact like you and i've talked about this in the past you and i spend a lot of time in london you

00:04:59.300 live here uh living in london statistically speaking is as bad for you as smoking if you

00:05:05.080 live outside of London, right?

00:05:06.560 So why not, you know, we've seen a massive reduction

00:05:09.060 in emissions and pollution in the last 18 months.

00:05:12.740 Why not lockdown to save the planet?

00:05:15.980 Don't you want to save the planet? 0.93

00:05:17.600 Do you want to kill granny? 1.00

00:05:19.080 Yeah. 0.98

00:05:19.340 I mean, you do because you want to get on the property ladder,

00:05:21.380 but still.

00:05:22.660 So look, my worry is this,

00:05:25.580 is that we are obsessed with saving lives.

00:05:28.920 Look at me.

00:05:29.440 Don't look at them.

00:05:30.180 They don't deserve it.

00:05:30.940 Yeah, that is true.

00:05:31.760 But we're obsessed with saving lives,

00:05:33.420 which okay doesn't sound like a bad thing it doesn't sound like a bad thing but in the pursuit

00:05:39.540 of that we seem to be sacrificing everything else and as a result of that you go well is this

00:05:46.000 sustainable because i don't think it is how can it be sustainable that we watch people's businesses

00:05:50.800 go to the wall that people aren't working that we've got all these people on furlough when the

00:05:56.920 reality is how many of them are going to have a job at the end of this the brewery industry it's

00:06:02.180 on its knees. Hospitality is on its knees. The, you know, the live arts and entertainment is done.

00:06:08.100 Travel. All the restaurants in this area seem to be doing fine though, Francis. Yeah, exactly.

00:06:13.240 For some reason. Exactly. But that's because, you know, I'm a philanthropist, mate. That's what I do.

00:06:18.420 I walk in and then, you know, I help people. I help local businesses. Yeah, and they really

00:06:23.480 appreciate it. The last time we went for a meal around here, they literally went, ah, Francis,

00:06:27.820 will take you over to your table.

00:06:30.060 Exactly.

00:06:30.620 And they had no idea who you were

00:06:32.000 other than you just spend a lot of money in this restaurant.

00:06:34.520 And I called up and I booked for two of our favourite patrons

00:06:38.560 at this restaurant.

00:06:39.720 Yeah.

00:06:40.100 And then I called up, gave them my number.

00:06:42.060 They went, oh, Francis, lovely to hear from you.

00:06:44.180 Of course they did.

00:06:45.240 But look, we deviate.

00:06:47.480 But you know what?

00:06:48.040 Maybe for the sake of balance,

00:06:49.680 we should actually have a conversation about COVID

00:06:52.560 and the reaction to it

00:06:54.000 and sort of looking over the last 18 months.

00:06:56.880 You and I were, I don't know about you,

00:06:58.540 were you in favour of the first lockdown?

00:07:00.260 Yeah, I think most people were.

00:07:01.800 I was.

00:07:02.400 Yeah, most people didn't know what this was.

00:07:04.640 It could have been far more deadly than it actually was.

00:07:07.820 We didn't know how we were going to cope.

00:07:09.500 We didn't know the effects of it.

00:07:10.800 We didn't know the long-term.

00:07:11.860 I mean, you can argue we still don't know

00:07:13.060 the long-term effects of the virus.

00:07:14.800 It was a sensible thing to do in the circumstance.

00:07:17.520 Now, actually, we've both spoken with people in the NHS.

00:07:20.580 The argument was we didn't lock down soon enough.

00:07:22.960 It was the argument.

00:07:24.160 And I know people who make the argument

00:07:26.040 that if we'd locked down, shut the borders early,

00:07:29.240 not let the virus in, if you like,

00:07:31.600 or at a lower level and protected everything,

00:07:34.100 then we could have had...

00:07:34.820 Gone full Brexit.

00:07:35.940 Yeah, I actually don't think that would have happened, though.

00:07:38.580 I don't think that would have happened.

00:07:40.260 And politically, I just don't think it was possible

00:07:41.980 to close the borders because people have short memories.

00:07:44.460 But if you remember at the time,

00:07:46.040 the left was all about closing borders as racist

00:07:49.140 at that moment in time.

00:07:50.280 There was a mayor, I think, or a politician in New York

00:07:53.780 who said, go and hug a Chinese person.

00:07:56.040 He was in Italy.

00:07:57.400 He was in Italy.

00:07:57.980 There was a man of Italian town who said,

00:08:00.800 hug a Chinese person.

00:08:02.440 And somebody, a politician in America said,

00:08:04.880 yeah, go out and enjoy the Chinese whatever.

00:08:08.060 Go to Chinatown, have a meal.

00:08:10.080 So at the time, I just don't think it was going to happen.

00:08:12.720 But let me ask you this,

00:08:13.780 because I think in light of how we've changed our thoughts on it,

00:08:16.620 given that lockdown has opened up what we've just talked about,

00:08:20.700 which is the possibility of endless lockdowns

00:08:23.800 or lockdowns being a permanent feature of our lives,

00:08:27.240 do you think the first lockdown was a mistake?

00:08:29.940 No.

00:08:30.740 In retrospect?

00:08:32.220 I think it's an unfair question

00:08:33.900 because nobody at that point knew what was happening.

00:08:37.040 Nobody knew what was going on.

00:08:38.900 It's an unfair question

00:08:40.340 because when you are confronted with an uncertainty

00:08:43.120 and a new virus,

00:08:45.420 you have to do what is necessary

00:08:49.000 to protect the population,

00:08:51.320 especially when you don't have the facts or the information.

00:08:54.760 So I think at that point, no, I don't think it was necessary.

00:08:56.680 Well, the argument might be whether lockdowns actually do protect the population.

00:09:01.740 Well, Toby Young famously said that, you know,

00:09:04.420 the actual deaths were decreasing at that point.

00:09:06.560 Well, right.

00:09:07.200 And add to that the fact that lockdowns also kill people.

00:09:10.480 And we still don't know.

00:09:11.980 I made this point on GB News last week,

00:09:13.940 which is we don't know how many people lockdowns kill

00:09:16.380 and no one seems to want to find out, which bothers me.

00:09:20.620 Well, the reason is, is because then these people have it on their conscience that the

00:09:25.700 policy that they implemented has directly led to people losing their lives or dying.

00:09:30.200 But don't we want it on their conscience so that when people are making that decision

00:09:33.680 in the future, they weigh both sides?

00:09:35.340 People don't want that.

00:09:36.120 How many people on Twitter, on social media, advocated lockdown, demanded stronger, harder,

00:09:42.640 faster?

00:09:43.960 Do these people want it on their conscience that they advocated for a policy which unfortunately

00:09:48.300 meant a lot of people lost their lives?

00:09:50.620 I don't think so.

00:09:51.880 It's interesting.

00:09:52.680 And it's interesting for you and I to be talking about it

00:09:55.240 because if we wind the clock back 18 months

00:09:58.080 and think about where you and I were in February of 2020.

00:10:02.700 I was smashing gigs, guys.

00:10:04.740 That's about all you were smashing at that time.

00:10:07.160 But honestly, if you think about our lives,

00:10:11.240 your personal life, my personal life,

00:10:14.340 our work, this great thing that we're involved with,

00:10:18.040 our personal circumstances, all of that for us is better. And yet we are now simultaneously with

00:10:27.080 that two of the harshest critics of the government's policy. How has that happened?

00:10:32.760 I think the reason why it's happened, look, we did very well over lockdown. Lockdown for us

00:10:38.700 personally was a boom time. It was a boom time. It just was. Just to recap for people, before

00:10:46.120 lockdown kicked in we were doing what one interview a week we're doing one interview

00:10:49.980 a week one live stream a week we're on about 96 000 subscribers yeah yeah you know and we went

00:10:56.920 from there to where we are now which is over 250 000 and we're doing this full time we put four

00:11:02.740 raw shows out every week we do two interviews every week we you know uh we've interviewed

00:11:07.900 people like jordan peterson twice since then heather highing brett weinstein a huge ton of

00:11:15.040 really really spectacular guests and that's because we've been able you know i think lockdown

00:11:20.200 gave us permission to do remote interviews which we always resisted and there's a reason by the way

00:11:25.040 to resist them they're not as good as in-person interviews they're not as good as in-person

00:11:29.420 interviews but it also gave us a large captive audience for us to tap into the fact was you know

00:11:36.920 they cup tv production you know everybody was sat at home nobody knew what was going on

00:11:43.840 Then, you know, then you had the BLM marches and everything that happened around that.

00:11:49.340 So for us, it was a very fertile time.

00:11:51.480 But what our platform has created is an audience of 250 odd thousand people.

00:11:58.500 More when you include, you know, the audience.

00:12:00.840 So let's say 300,000 is a conservative estimate.

00:12:03.880 Now for us, and at times, I must admit, I fall into this pattern.

00:12:07.620 I've seen these as just arbitrary numbers.

00:12:09.320 but these are real people with their concerns their struggles their difficulties and when you

00:12:15.600 get these people messaging you or talking to you via the live stream and they're saying to you

00:12:20.960 you know you're good thank you you're keeping me sane some people were saying look i'm going to be

00:12:25.900 honest i can't handle your interviews i'm just not in the frame of mind but i really love the

00:12:30.740 raw shows they help me to keep me they help me to keep me laughing and you think well look that's

00:12:36.040 great and you know we're both really happy that you know we're keeping people sane but is it the 0.99

00:12:40.740 job of two idiot comedians to stop tens if not hundreds of thousands of people from losing their 0.99

00:12:47.880 minds yeah i don't think so yeah so so i i guess what you're saying is we are hearing that a lot 1.00

00:12:57.180 of people are finding it very difficult yeah we are and what you know and what you get especially

00:13:04.140 from the comedy industry where a lot of people are, you know, middle class and, you know,

00:13:08.300 the media liberal elite, if we want to use that term.

00:13:11.500 They're like, well, I don't see the problem.

00:13:13.380 You know, I'm, you know, you spoke to a Guardian Journal, you know, who's a very nice person

00:13:17.600 actually.

00:13:18.380 And she was saying, well, what's the problem?

00:13:20.100 I'm sitting in my garden.

00:13:21.160 It's lovely.

00:13:21.700 I'm drinking Shabbily.

00:13:23.120 Peter Hitchens made the same point.

00:13:24.700 But the reality is there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people in this country

00:13:30.520 whose lives have been wrecked and destroyed by this policy.

00:13:34.140 So why is lockdown so popular then?

00:13:36.240 Because the government have been giving the population financial methadone.

00:13:42.700 But the problem is you can't be on methadone forever.

00:13:45.760 Eventually, you have to get off methadone.

00:13:47.580 And then you're going to face a brutal, bleak reality of the situation,

00:13:51.500 which is we're in one of the worst economic crises

00:13:55.220 for the last however many hundreds of years.

00:13:57.760 There's very few jobs to go around.

00:13:59.820 you know how are you going to get a job if you don't have a job and the real kicker is if you

00:14:06.840 work in a particular industry let's say the hotel industry and you've had a great career

00:14:11.400 and then you wake up and let's be fair there's no jobs in the hotel industry what are you going to

00:14:17.340 do are you going to be like fatima in that government advert and retrain as a coder if

00:14:22.120 you're in your 50s and you've been a concierge most of your life no it's bollocks so covid is

00:14:28.380 lockdown is basically Margaret Thatcher just for the hotel industry.

00:14:32.220 Yeah, and the airline industry, and the travel industry,

00:14:36.860 and hospitality, and live entertainment.

00:14:40.920 It's been a disaster.

00:14:43.160 And I think one of the things, look, you could say that there's been things

00:14:47.780 that could we have handled it better, could we have done this?

00:14:51.560 Absolutely.

00:14:52.040 But one thing I think we need to take credit from is the realisation

00:14:56.400 that we've been very fortunate, it has been great for us,

00:15:00.300 but we never shied away from the fact

00:15:02.980 and we never misunderstood the fact

00:15:04.680 that for the vast majority of people,

00:15:07.140 this has been an unmitigated disaster.

00:15:09.580 When did the penny drop for you?

00:15:13.920 I think it was at some point

00:15:15.400 between the second and the third lockdown.

00:15:18.820 I supported the first lockdown,

00:15:21.680 but I asked you this question,

00:15:23.440 and as I think about it now,

00:15:26.400 I am troubled that I don't know the answer

00:15:31.140 because the first wave really was a big wave.

00:15:35.520 Yeah.

00:15:35.740 There was a tremendous number of cases

00:15:37.280 and a lot of people died.

00:15:40.580 But the precedent we've now set in terms of,

00:15:45.580 this is really the problem with lockdown.

00:15:49.200 The reason we've been saying the word unprecedented

00:15:51.720 about lockdown and everything that's been happening

00:15:54.000 for the last 18 months,

00:15:54.900 what does unprecedented mean?

00:15:56.220 Well, it hasn't happened before.

00:15:57.320 It hasn't happened before.

00:15:58.580 Is this going to be the last pandemic?

00:16:00.960 No.

00:16:01.480 Is this the last virus to come out of China?

00:16:04.080 No.

00:16:04.760 Is this the last virus to come out of anywhere?

00:16:07.040 No.

00:16:07.620 Right?

00:16:07.960 So this is going to keep happening,

00:16:09.680 but it's not going to be unprecedented anymore.

00:16:13.540 So we've had SARS, we've had MERS,

00:16:17.240 we've had swine and avian flu,

00:16:18.840 whichever one of those was SARS, right?

00:16:21.100 SARS was something different.

00:16:22.240 So all of them and dozens of others, by the way,

00:16:25.540 that have just been completely ignored.

00:16:27.040 I remember teaching through swine flu.

00:16:30.900 Right.

00:16:31.520 And the schools were, you know, there was...

00:16:33.760 No one noticed it, really.

00:16:35.360 Right.

00:16:35.920 I mean, there were kids off and then,

00:16:37.760 but, you know, we all just cracked on.

00:16:39.920 Right.

00:16:41.100 That's not going to happen again.

00:16:42.440 No.

00:16:42.760 That's never, ever going to happen again, right?

00:16:44.440 Not in the lifetime of everyone who's alive today

00:16:48.620 will it ever be the case again

00:16:50.640 that someone's quote-unquote shagged a bat in China

00:16:54.140 and we are like, oh, yeah, well, you know, they do that.

00:17:00.220 You know, the viruses happen.

00:17:02.840 That's not going to happen again.

00:17:04.600 Every time a new virus now comes out,

00:17:07.340 there's going to be a minimum of all borders closed.

00:17:10.700 Minimum, right?

00:17:11.840 And probably some form of lockdown as well.

00:17:14.940 Am I wrong about that?

00:17:16.360 No.

00:17:16.940 So the question for me then is,

00:17:20.720 in setting the precedent of the first lockdown,

00:17:24.140 we saved possibly, possibly, we may have saved lives,

00:17:28.320 we may have not, but let's say that we did.

00:17:30.180 We saved lives then.

00:17:32.660 But what is that Pandora's box that we've opened?

00:17:35.860 That's what I think about.

00:17:37.660 When I think about the long,

00:17:39.040 when I play the movie Forward, that's what I think about.

00:17:41.740 And, you know, a lot of the thinking

00:17:43.660 in this period of time in COVID has been very short-term.

00:17:46.700 We've been dealing with short-term challenges.

00:17:49.260 As you said yourself, you know,

00:17:50.500 the first lockdown was like,

00:17:51.460 you just got to do whatever you can.

00:17:54.140 sometimes when you do whatever you can, you end up pulling out pillars that underpin elements of

00:18:02.600 your society that can't ever be replaced again. And that's why I'm hesitant, very hesitant to say

00:18:10.660 the first lockdown was a mistake because we didn't know what we didn't know. And in my opinion,

00:18:17.820 and it probably did save lives, if I'm honest.

00:18:22.040 But the consequences of that over the next 50 years,

00:18:29.060 I don't know what they are.

00:18:30.820 Yeah.

00:18:31.560 And there's going to be some.

00:18:35.080 There's going to be some.

00:18:36.140 And it worries me what they're going to be,

00:18:38.820 to be honest with you.

00:18:40.200 Well, look, I found it incredible that nobody,

00:18:44.960 Well, I mean, Brendan O'Neill, one of the few people, and of course, Brendan Wood, was worried that, you know, that public protest was banned.

00:18:54.440 Even when the science said transmission in the open is practically zero and still it was banned.

00:19:04.120 So you're there thinking, hang on a second, there's something slightly nefarious going on here.

00:19:08.960 And it was only with the Women's March when that picture came out

00:19:12.680 of that red-headed woman with the police officer with the knee in the back

00:19:16.520 did everyone stop and think, hang on a second.

00:19:19.260 Maybe this is wrong.

00:19:20.360 Yeah.

00:19:21.700 That's very worrying.

00:19:23.380 That so many people gave up their right to protest

00:19:26.380 and didn't think about it for one iota.

00:19:30.340 But look, fair play to Brendan.

00:19:32.380 He was very consistent about this and spiked in general from the beginning.

00:19:35.760 And I laughed at them.

00:19:36.620 I made jokes about it.

00:19:38.960 about them being that, like, I was like, come on, guys, you know, we just need to pull together,

00:19:44.220 blah, blah, blah. Maybe they were right. Yeah. You know, I'll happily publicly apologize to them.

00:19:50.280 I think they were making some good points at the time about the fact that we have voluntarily given

00:19:55.440 up a lot of the freedoms. And what worries me now is you've got these, you know, people like,

00:20:01.440 they're not bad people. No. You know, Dan Hodges and Tom Harwood and others who basically said,

00:20:07.400 we're not in lockdown anymore the reason that you have to wear a mask the reason you have to

00:20:11.460 socially distance uh you know all of these that's just restrictions it's not lockdown

00:20:16.560 you know you well look why not you know it's just a little thing it's a you know it's just a little

00:20:21.380 inconvenience yeah sure you can't travel to almost any part of the world that you like you used to

00:20:26.540 but you know just get the vaccine that the government is essentially forcing you to take

00:20:31.340 now because they're going to make it impossible to live a normal life without it and to them

00:20:35.960 that's not lockdown and so that's what worries me is that when we talk about the new normal

00:20:42.280 that's what they're really talking about yeah the idea that these restrictions are going to be done

00:20:47.580 at some point is right it's nonsense i hate that phrase a new normal yeah because what it means

00:20:53.360 is the life that we used to have and we used to enjoy normality is done yeah it is done that's

00:21:00.600 what it means in this country it's done it's done and I I find that terrifying and for the life of

00:21:08.500 me I don't understand why other people don't find that terrifying where we as a nation have gone

00:21:15.860 from one where we see ourselves being in charge of our own destiny I mean you as a person seeing

00:21:23.220 yourself as being in charge of your own destiny making your own decisions that's the beauty of

00:21:27.780 the West. You make your own decisions, you have your own opinions, you live your own life. And you

00:21:32.460 pay the price. And you pay the price, you know, and that's life, you know, cause and effect.

00:21:37.800 And we've gone from that to wanting big brother to look after us, big government to give us our

00:21:45.300 money, you know, so that we can go to certain places, decide how and when we socialise,

00:21:50.060 if we wear a mask, how we do public protests,

00:21:55.500 how we congregate.

00:21:57.400 It's interesting you saying this

00:21:58.860 because you are generally to the left of me

00:22:00.700 when it comes to the size of government.

00:22:03.440 You're quite happy for the government

00:22:05.020 to be spending a lot of money on public services and stuff generally.

00:22:08.660 Yeah, but I don't want the government impinging on my liberty.

00:22:14.180 And I don't understand particularly,

00:22:17.180 and it's not just people on the left,

00:22:18.880 There's people on the right who are like, yeah, what's the problem?

00:22:22.280 And maybe it's because of our backgrounds, you know, Soviet Union, Venezuela, that we go, no, this isn't a good idea.

00:22:32.020 Why do you think that so many people seem to be fine with this?

00:22:35.720 Yeah, I think the lack of background is kind of part of it.

00:22:38.800 I almost think it's like an abusive relationship.

00:22:41.280 Like the first time you're in one, you don't really notice what's going on.

00:22:45.720 If you talk to women about it, they're like, 1.00

00:22:47.680 well, I just thought it was normal

00:22:48.780 or maybe I was doing something wrong or whatever.

00:22:52.460 But then the second time you find

00:22:54.640 or the third time or whatever,

00:22:56.020 eventually you work out what's going on 1.00

00:22:58.080 and you just go, the guy's an asshole. 1.00

00:23:00.100 You know, whereas if it's your first time 1.00

00:23:02.600 and you've never experienced authoritarian government,

00:23:05.000 you've never seen that every time

00:23:07.960 the government takes your liberties from you,

00:23:09.740 they never give them back.

00:23:10.800 No.

00:23:11.180 They never give them back.

00:23:12.440 Think about this.

00:23:13.800 Before 9-11,

00:23:15.740 Right?

00:23:16.920 Do you remember what it was like flying before 9-11?

00:23:19.480 Oh, it was brilliant.

00:23:20.300 You bring your own shotgun.

00:23:21.560 Yeah.

00:23:22.080 Sit there.

00:23:22.880 You know what I mean? 1.00

00:23:23.780 Yeah, shoot a couple of people. 1.00

00:23:25.020 You shoot a couple of people. 1.00

00:23:26.440 Waitress or whatever brings you a beverage. 0.97

00:23:28.620 Nice.

00:23:28.860 Yeah, occasionally shout aloha, Bob.

00:23:30.580 It was fine.

00:23:31.140 It was great.

00:23:31.900 The whole plane joined in.

00:23:33.400 Yeah, now this video is getting taken down.

00:23:35.800 But you know what I mean?

00:23:37.100 Yeah, of course.

00:23:37.660 Or before that, some guy decides to take shoes on a plane that don't even explode.

00:23:41.780 Richard Reid, yeah.

00:23:42.540 Now we're all taking our shoes off for the rest of our lives.

00:23:45.900 For the rest of our lives.

00:23:47.580 That's never going to stop.

00:23:48.840 And liquids as well.

00:23:50.020 Do you remember that?

00:23:50.600 Do you remember being able to walk into a prime with liquids?

00:23:52.740 Yeah.

00:23:53.460 You know, Islamists could be like, you know what? 0.99

00:23:55.400 We're actually going to get all our money.

00:23:58.640 We're going to fund an expedition to Mars

00:24:00.540 and we're going to build the Martian caliphate.

00:24:04.060 And all the Islamists go to Mars. 0.99

00:24:06.080 And we'd still be fucking taking our shoes off. 1.00

00:24:07.820 Yeah, of course. 0.99

00:24:08.500 And fucking sipping little bits of breast milk or whatever 1.00

00:24:11.700 just to get on the plane with your baby. 1.00

00:24:13.460 That's never coming back. 0.99

00:24:15.740 So what makes you think all this other shit is going to end? 0.99

00:24:18.580 And the thing that I've found absolutely infuriating 0.99

00:24:23.160 is vaccine passports.

00:24:24.680 And again, people who at one time I would have considered

00:24:27.420 to be intelligent, sane, reasonable, rational people

00:24:30.900 going, what's the problem?

00:24:33.680 Why not?

00:24:35.000 Why shouldn't we?

00:24:36.160 If that means I can go to a club and dance around

00:24:38.620 with 300 sweaty other strangers

00:24:40.300 like I used to be able to in 2019 and early 2020,

00:24:43.800 then why shouldn't we have vaccine passports?

00:24:46.880 If that means I can go to a theatre and go to a festival,

00:24:51.420 why shouldn't we?

00:24:54.800 And I just find it, it's not baffling.

00:24:58.740 It's not upsetting.

00:24:59.980 It doesn't make me angry.

00:25:00.960 It breaks my heart.

00:25:02.780 Because what it shows is either there's two things.

00:25:06.300 People don't understand the freedoms they have

00:25:08.340 or they don't care about them.

00:25:10.300 and I don't know what's worse.

00:25:12.280 I think it's Benjamin Franklin, it's his quote,

00:25:16.240 that those who will sacrifice liberty

00:25:19.120 for a little bit of temporary safety

00:25:20.700 will deserve neither and get neither, or something.

00:25:23.580 I'm paraphrasing.

00:25:24.820 But yeah, if you give up your freedoms

00:25:27.460 for what you perceive to be safety,

00:25:29.360 then you're never going to get the freedoms back.

00:25:32.060 And you're probably, by the way,

00:25:33.120 not going to be that much safer either in the long run.

00:25:35.360 No, it's all illusory.

00:25:36.420 Yeah, well, exactly.

00:25:37.760 So I think that's why it bothers us.

00:25:40.300 Um, and let's be honest, I, you know, I think the truth is that that's a fight that we've

00:25:46.400 lost.

00:25:47.860 It's a fight that we've lost.

00:25:49.240 I don't, I don't, I don't believe lockdowns will ever be forced out of the, of the repertoire

00:25:56.160 of government.

00:25:57.420 Uh, I don't believe there's enough opposition to vaccine passports. 0.92

00:26:01.020 They will, they'll just, they don't need to call them vaccine passports, but essentially

00:26:04.700 you're going to have to have a test or a vaccine

00:26:07.860 to go anywhere, to travel,

00:26:11.160 to go to public venues, whatever.

00:26:15.260 And I just don't see that turning around.

00:26:17.840 And look, I know that people would feel

00:26:21.420 that this is pessimistic, but this is just the truth.

00:26:24.180 And I don't think there's any use

00:26:25.440 to you and I pretending otherwise.

00:26:27.220 No, no.

00:26:28.480 But again, it's a way that people have capitulated.

00:26:30.860 The only way this ends is if there's

00:26:33.140 a mass public movement of civil disobedience, which, as you rightly say, as long as the

00:26:38.520 government is paying people not to work, self-employment grants, business grants, furlough,

00:26:43.900 whatever, that's not going to happen. I mean, I think it's something like 70% of people

00:26:48.140 in the country, according to polling, which we don't have to trust. But there are a lot

00:26:52.180 of people who I know, they support more lockdown. I was having an argument with somebody today

00:26:57.580 about this on social media, and I got them...

00:26:59.800 Doesn't sound like you, mate.

00:27:00.580 No, it doesn't.

00:27:01.480 But at the end of the conversation,

00:27:03.280 I actually got them to say themselves

00:27:05.480 that they support annual restrictions for flu.

00:27:10.800 I said to them, I said to them,

00:27:12.340 look, if you believe that COVID lockdown

00:27:14.840 is what we need to do continually,

00:27:18.520 flu currently kills more people.

00:27:20.080 Why wouldn't we have a flu lockdown?

00:27:21.620 And he went, actually, yeah, I do think we need.

00:27:23.540 So that's how people think, right?

00:27:26.180 And yeah, of course, if you give people 80% of their wages

00:27:28.760 and the chance not to work,

00:27:29.880 Like, you could get a majority in the polls 0.99

00:27:33.120 to fucking remove the statue of Winston Churchill 0.99

00:27:35.580 and replace it with one of Osama bin Laden 0.99

00:27:37.420 without any pandemic on that basis

00:27:40.700 if you paid them enough

00:27:41.640 and if you gave them a chance

00:27:42.720 not to have to get up at 6 a.m.

00:27:44.740 and get on this filled tube

00:27:46.720 next to someone's armpit. 0.62

00:27:48.400 Like, that's not appealing.

00:27:50.420 And I get it.

00:27:51.480 I understand that.

00:27:53.680 So I do think the only way that this ends

00:27:55.980 is a mass protest and mass civil disobedience

00:27:58.880 like every week.

00:28:00.480 And I don't think that's going to happen.

00:28:02.000 It's not going to happen.

00:28:02.920 I'll go to every protest that I can from now on.

00:28:05.160 That's the decision I've made.

00:28:06.600 And I see a lot of people

00:28:07.920 who don't ever go to protest doing that.

00:28:10.940 They're going to do that.

00:28:12.420 But unless that takes on a mass scale,

00:28:17.940 I don't think anything's going to change.

00:28:19.820 And by the way, look,

00:28:20.800 one of the formative experiences of my early adulthood

00:28:24.700 was the war in Iraq, right?

00:28:27.280 One million people marched.

00:28:28.700 Millions of people marched, not only in this city of London,

00:28:32.280 but around, I was in Edinburgh at the time,

00:28:33.960 and there was half a million people on the streets of Edinburgh.

00:28:37.400 Right?

00:28:38.300 And the war still happened.

00:28:40.020 And so I just don't, I don't see it changing.

00:28:43.860 No.

00:28:44.080 I don't see it changing.

00:28:45.360 The problem is, is you use the phrase, play the movie forward.

00:28:48.920 Not enough people do that.

00:28:50.780 They go, right, so we're doing this now.

00:28:52.700 Is this sustainable?

00:28:54.760 Is this way of life going to be sustainable?

00:28:58.540 Is it going to work in three to five years' time?

00:29:00.460 I don't understand why people don't ask themselves that question.

00:29:04.560 Why is that such a difficult thing to comprehend?

00:29:07.860 And we haven't even talked about economics yet.

00:29:09.580 The truth is 40% of US dollars that have been printed ever were printed in the last year.

00:29:18.500 In 2020, there was a month, I think it might have been July or August.

00:29:22.920 Don't quote me on this, but there was one month in which the U.S. government, essentially, printed more money than had been printed in the previous two centuries.

00:29:33.440 Wow.

00:29:33.920 In one month.

00:29:35.140 Now, if you think that's not going to have economic consequences, you haven't understood what I've just said, right?

00:29:41.580 So there's the economic side of it as well, which people seem.

00:29:44.420 And you know what?

00:29:45.420 I go back to our interview with Mike Driver, which almost no one watched.

00:29:48.900 And he predicted all of this, if you remember.

00:29:52.700 He is the Nostradamus.

00:29:54.520 He predicted all of this.

00:29:56.060 Yeah, he did.

00:29:56.720 And I was like, I remember him.

00:29:59.020 Do you remember the first interview?

00:30:00.880 And he was banging on.

00:30:01.960 I'm like, come on, Mike.

00:30:04.160 Yeah.

00:30:04.740 You know, put down the pipe, son.

00:30:07.880 Yeah, you know.

00:30:08.920 Maybe we should have picked up the pipe.

00:30:10.680 Yeah, because the reality was he was banging on the money about all of this.

00:30:16.080 100%.

00:30:16.480 100%.

00:30:18.080 Anyway, so that's the good news, guys.

00:30:20.100 Yeah.

00:30:20.320 So cheer up. 0.93

00:30:21.260 it's all going to be great. But actually, I think, Francis, you make, and you know how much it hurts

00:30:26.980 me to say this, but you've been making a very good point on this, which is a lot of this stems

00:30:33.140 from the modern attitude to death. Yeah. We in the West have made death a taboo subject.

00:30:44.340 We don't want to talk about it. We don't address it. We believe that our lives are going to go on

00:30:49.620 forever. And any sign of aging can be cured. Cured. We can, you know, get a facelift. We

00:30:55.440 take Botox. We have hair transplants. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. We go to Turkey. We get

00:30:59.880 our teeth done. You can see this in our celebrities with their weird, smooth, expressionless faces.

00:31:07.800 And why is that? Because we can't and don't want to accept the fact that our time here is finite.

00:31:14.760 whereas before we had religion and when you believed in religion well I'm gonna die but

00:31:20.520 at least I'm gonna go to heaven we don't most of us don't believe that anymore I thought you were

00:31:24.340 gonna say most of us don't go to heaven we go to hell yeah yeah but most of us don't believe that

00:31:28.800 anymore so we think this is all we've got then all of a sudden this plague enters our country

00:31:35.280 we have a panic because we think we've conquered illness we think we've conquered death and all of

00:31:40.920 of a sudden, nature has given us a massive wake-up call and said to us, you're not in

00:31:45.740 control. You are mortal, you are human, and you are vulnerable. And that, for the vast

00:31:52.500 majority of us who have been brought up in this country and have been insulated from

00:31:56.620 illness, disease, and death, that was a wake-up call too far, and it induced panic. And that's

00:32:03.900 what we've seen a lot of it. I think people suddenly realize, and they're human, they're

00:32:08.340 mortal, that they could contract this illness and they could die. And not only could they die,

00:32:14.200 but their parents could die. Do you remember this was our first ever interview with Simon Evans,

00:32:19.100 where he talked about what are we going to do? It was the last question we asked him.

00:32:23.840 This was before the pandemic.

00:32:24.760 This was way before the pandemic. This was in 2019. This was around about May, June 2019.

00:32:30.700 And he said, there's a lot of people in the West being kept alive with drugs.

00:32:34.940 elderly people

00:32:37.440 what are we going to do with these people

00:32:39.660 how are we going to support them

00:32:41.400 what are we going to do

00:32:43.420 maybe Simon Evans one of Britain's best comedians

00:32:45.980 did in fact leak this virus from a lab

00:32:48.220 to take care of that problem

00:32:49.340 yeah he might well have done

00:32:50.720 Simon if you're watching well done mate

00:32:52.040 but the reality is

00:32:54.280 nature or this lab or whatever it was

00:32:58.400 created a virus

00:33:01.560 that is dealing with that problem

00:33:04.520 and we couldn't bear to see people

00:33:08.980 who are elderly, infirm, sick, vulnerable

00:33:13.540 die in such swathes

00:33:16.920 because we'd never seen it before

00:33:18.220 and it was too much for us.

00:33:20.380 And look, just for the sake of not being misunderstood

00:33:23.600 I think we do want to protect people from disease

00:33:28.220 and the NHS from being filled with just so many people

00:33:32.800 that it can't actually operate as normal.

00:33:35.740 But yeah, I think you're right.

00:33:37.200 The fact that we don't have a cohesive explanation

00:33:42.240 of what is the meaning of our lives,

00:33:44.800 what is the purpose of our lives,

00:33:46.180 what happens when we die in the absence of religion.

00:33:49.760 And you and I are both non-believers, I think still,

00:33:53.440 despite everything that's happening.

00:33:55.440 I think in that situation,

00:33:57.160 it's very hard to have a moral framework

00:34:00.060 that allows you to act rationally.

00:34:04.200 Yeah.

00:34:04.680 You know, it's interesting.

00:34:05.640 I remember when the Fukushima reactor exploded,

00:34:08.320 not exploded, it got hit by a tsunami

00:34:10.740 and it was some kind of thing.

00:34:13.800 Japanese people in their 80s said,

00:34:17.920 send us in to fix it.

00:34:21.280 Don't send young people to fix this nuclear thing. 0.78

00:34:25.880 Their lives are long

00:34:27.340 and they could live a long life.

00:34:30.140 I'm in my 80s.

00:34:31.540 Okay, I'm going to get radiation poisoning and probably die.

00:34:34.360 But I've lived a long and full life.

00:34:37.760 And this idea that we would sacrifice the young to protect the old, 0.98

00:34:43.180 to me seems like it's a sign of some kind of perverse mindset to me,

00:34:50.960 that we would sacrifice young people's education.

00:34:55.000 and we had David McWilliams on the show to talk about the fact

00:34:57.700 that young people never recover from problems with education.

00:35:02.220 It's called scarring in economics.

00:35:04.720 You know, it's YouTube, so we can't get into the vaccine,

00:35:07.880 but the Joint Committee for Vaccination and Immunisation,

00:35:12.880 as we record this, says that it's not worth the risk

00:35:16.600 to inoculate and vaccinate young people, people under 18.

00:35:21.240 So there are risks with the vaccine too.

00:35:23.260 and the drive to vaccinate young people,

00:35:26.720 despite the fact that those risks exist

00:35:29.040 and the upside to me is non-existent really

00:35:32.000 because they're not vulnerable to COVID,

00:35:34.060 that is a very dangerous trend

00:35:36.360 that you would risk even a little bit

00:35:38.880 of the health of young people

00:35:40.140 to save the very old and the infirm, etc.

00:35:44.220 It's a sign of some kind of perversion

00:35:47.600 in our mindset to me.

00:35:49.460 But if you think about it,

00:35:50.720 Our entire society is biased towards old people. 1.00

00:35:55.680 They have the money, they vote.

00:35:57.460 Yeah, they have the pensions.

00:35:59.540 Well, our generation aren't going to have pensions.

00:36:01.560 I mean, that's widely accepted.

00:36:03.120 If you look, they get winter payments.

00:36:05.560 They have been the beneficiaries of the housing crisis.

00:36:10.580 What are we doing for young people?

00:36:13.640 Lockdowns happened to protect the old and the vulnerable.

00:36:17.340 What's happening for young people?

00:36:18.740 when we're not looking after them.

00:36:21.880 They've been thrown on the scrap heap, let's be honest.

00:36:25.640 I mean, you saw it with universities,

00:36:27.400 charging nine grand for a Zoom lecture

00:36:29.300 and effectively locking them in their dorms

00:36:33.080 and demonising young people for wanting to go out,

00:36:37.120 for wanting to see their friends

00:36:38.520 and for wanting to integrate back into society.

00:36:43.600 It was interesting as well, wasn't it?

00:36:45.040 There was a period when the case numbers started rising

00:36:47.840 and the narrative suddenly became

00:36:49.580 it's all these young people who are going out.

00:36:51.760 Selfish.

00:36:52.620 But it wasn't, though.

00:36:54.080 No.

00:36:54.740 It had nothing to do with young people

00:36:56.140 who were supposedly spreading it.

00:36:58.980 But the narrative was that.

00:37:00.700 Yeah.

00:37:01.680 Yeah, I hadn't really thought about it

00:37:03.440 in that level of detail,

00:37:04.560 but there's something there that's off to me.

00:37:09.460 Yeah.

00:37:09.860 That is not a trade-off that a healthy society makes,

00:37:13.700 sacrificing the young to protect the old. 0.71

00:37:16.800 You have to look after the elderly. 1.00

00:37:18.760 And these are people who've given their life to this country

00:37:22.380 and they've paid taxes and whatever.

00:37:23.720 Of course, you have to protect them.

00:37:25.420 But I'm just talking, if you were a tribe of 250 people,

00:37:29.300 hunter-gatherers, that would not be a viable long-term strategy.

00:37:32.860 No.

00:37:34.100 At all.

00:37:35.040 Do you know what I mean?

00:37:36.260 So we've gone against our nature in some way in doing that.

00:37:39.920 And, yeah, that's a...

00:37:42.380 The brunt of this is going to be borne by young people. 0.68

00:37:45.180 It's not going to be born by the elderly. 0.99

00:37:47.380 Because by the time we lift restrictions,

00:37:52.200 we hopefully get back to some semblance of normality.

00:37:55.920 Who are going to be the ones paying it off?

00:37:57.720 It's not going to be them because they're not earning.

00:38:00.680 And it's going to be our generation 0.97

00:38:02.860 and the people I feel most sorry for.

00:38:06.260 Imagine being a kid trying to get a job now,

00:38:08.380 fresh out of uni or college.

00:38:10.200 It's going to be impossible.

00:38:12.280 This has been a complete and utter disaster for them.

00:38:16.700 Well, there's another factor that I think we should talk about

00:38:19.560 as we've got about 15, 20 minutes,

00:38:22.520 which is the impact all of this has had on,

00:38:26.580 and this is very much in the context of our show,

00:38:28.400 freedom of research and freedom of speech

00:38:31.900 and freedom to discuss what the government is doing.

00:38:36.100 So the WHO set some rules for what can and can't be said.

00:38:41.360 YouTube and other big tech platforms essentially implemented them.

00:38:44.560 So, for example, for a year, it was against the rules

00:38:48.620 to discuss the idea that COVID may have leaked from a lab.

00:38:52.880 As we know from our interview with Brett Weinstein,

00:38:55.720 it is perfectly possible and quite likely that it did leak from a lab

00:38:59.540 and the big tech companies have now allowed that conversation to happen.

00:39:04.320 It was against the rules and Brett is likely to lose his channel,

00:39:08.280 quite possibly as we record this,

00:39:09.800 we're talking about various drugs

00:39:12.920 that may or may not be effective to treat COVID.

00:39:16.500 We've now seen, as of this morning,

00:39:19.040 on the BBC itself,

00:39:20.580 the ivermectin,

00:39:21.500 which is one of the drugs that we're talking about,

00:39:23.500 is being studied in the UK

00:39:25.060 as a potential treatment for COVID, right?

00:39:27.420 So it may turn out to be that it's not effective,

00:39:30.020 but it may be effective.

00:39:31.760 And yet for a year and a half,

00:39:33.420 that was not allowed to be discussed.

00:39:35.560 So that essentially means that

00:39:37.600 But YouTube is now telling scientists and researchers

00:39:42.040 what can and can't be talked about.

00:39:45.520 They are now the arbiters of what is scientifically allowed to be discussed.

00:39:50.060 What do you make of that?

00:39:51.540 I think it's a disaster for free speech.

00:39:53.300 I think it's a disaster for society.

00:39:55.880 And again, not enough people seem to be caring about this.

00:39:59.760 What about David Fuller argument from Rebel Wisdom,

00:40:03.680 who had us on his show and he challenged us

00:40:06.100 for interviewing Dr. Sucharabhakti,

00:40:09.880 who had some pretty choice things to say about...

00:40:13.260 This was before the vaccine actually came out,

00:40:15.500 but he knew how it would be made.

00:40:18.660 And when you said to him, will you take the vaccine?

00:40:21.180 He said, no, because I'm not mad.

00:40:22.940 Yeah, I remember laughing quite hard at that.

00:40:24.680 Not because it was funny,

00:40:25.660 just because I didn't know any other reaction

00:40:27.740 that would be appropriate.

00:40:28.500 Yeah, and since that moment,

00:40:30.240 Dr. Sucharabhakti is known on our channel

00:40:32.020 as Dr. Big Balls or Dr. Grossballen

00:40:34.360 in his native German.

00:40:36.100 And what about David's argument, though, that by broadcasting conversations about, you know, treatments that are not scientifically 100% verified or whatever, or the WHO says that we shouldn't talk about them, we are potentially causing people not to have the vaccine or not to do this or not to do that.

00:40:54.280 And, you know, somebody could die as a result.

00:40:56.220 I think there's a big, big difference for having someone like David Icahn, who is saying that 5G causes COVID, to have somebody on who is a chair of medical microbiology at Mines University, or to have, you know, the people on that Brett has had. These are reputable scientists. These are experts in their field having a discussion.

00:41:18.860 But his argument is you and I are not able to verify independently

00:41:22.740 whether what they're saying is true.

00:41:24.920 And if it's not true, people could die.

00:41:30.100 Do you think people aren't having these discussions day in, day out and day on?

00:41:33.880 No, but what the argument is, and I'm just playing devil's advocate here,

00:41:37.740 the argument is that by amplifying the message with our 250,000 subscribers,

00:41:42.760 we are spreading it way beyond what might be happening

00:41:45.900 around the kitchen table somewhere.

00:41:47.080 This is the whole purpose of science.

00:41:49.200 You have hypothesis.

00:41:50.580 You have people who believe one thing about a virus.

00:41:53.000 You have people who believe another.

00:41:54.900 And then they challenge each other.

00:41:56.520 And eventually, the truth comes out.

00:41:58.860 You come to a consensus.

00:42:00.560 Somebody gets disproved.

00:42:02.880 But the whole purpose and the whole process of science

00:42:06.600 is that's how it works.

00:42:08.400 And suddenly we're going, no, you can't say this.

00:42:11.020 You can't say that.

00:42:12.460 Well, what happens if one of these lone voices is correct?

00:42:15.560 There have been cases right the way from, you know,

00:42:18.440 take the whistleblowers, for instance, when thalidomide.

00:42:23.620 You know, everybody thought thalidomide was a miracle drug.

00:42:26.640 There was a few lone voices going, oh, hang on, this is going to end badly.

00:42:31.000 What, do we just silence those people?

00:42:33.740 You need the lone voice.

00:42:35.960 You need the critic.

00:42:37.160 You need the whistleblower.

00:42:38.400 They might be wrong, but it doesn't mean that we can't have hypothesis

00:42:44.560 and our beliefs challenged because if we do then we're living in a police state aren't we

00:42:50.280 well i mean i think your point about the way science works is absolutely true like as i've

00:42:56.240 said before both my parents are scientists my dad actually worked in the soviet union

00:43:00.080 making viruses and making vaccines uh and you know we had books in our house about all sorts

00:43:07.100 of crazy and strange hypotheses that turned out to be true or untrue or whatever but that's the

00:43:12.600 process of science you look at the fact you look at the hypothesis you investigate it you test it

00:43:17.700 experimentally and then most of the time it turns out that what you thought was wrong but the

00:43:21.840 discussion around it may often produce something that's valuable anyway and the other thing that

00:43:26.880 I think worries me is you know we had Brett on the show and as we speak he he's just done an

00:43:33.160 interview with Joe Rogan and so we weren't able to get him back and have the unfiltered conversation

00:43:37.620 that we wanted to because he had to reschedule.

00:43:39.860 But what if most of what he's saying is not true,

00:43:46.580 but 5% is?

00:43:48.560 Yeah.

00:43:48.740 What if, let's say, I'm not saying this is true,

00:43:51.480 just to be clear, because I don't know,

00:43:54.380 but what if the vaccine is just a little bit more dangerous

00:43:59.920 than we're being told?

00:44:00.900 Yeah.

00:44:01.660 Just a little bit.

00:44:02.680 It's only going to, let's say, cause complications,

00:44:06.660 including death for an extra I don't know five percent more people than than we thought

00:44:12.160 shouldn't people know that isn't that isn't not knowing that going to kill people

00:44:17.400 of course so to me this argument by is about how well if you've talked to this person and they say

00:44:24.840 this people will die well people will also die if we don't talk to him potentially so this very

00:44:31.760 simplistic narrative i i sort of i i play back our interview with david on his show and i i start to

00:44:38.700 think that maybe we gave in a little bit too much to this idea that it's on us to not have

00:44:47.160 conversations that could have an impact somewhere down the line because i think at the time i was

00:44:51.660 also not thinking about the impact of not having the conversation do you know what i mean yeah

00:44:56.900 it's it's a complicated thing man but but it's like jordan peterson was saying you know the

00:45:01.680 the modern world and modern technology has unlocked a thing that is way more complex than

00:45:06.800 we can understand just like the printing press did i mean the printing press essentially caused

00:45:10.900 200 years of religious warfare the right that tore europe apart and eventually you could argue

00:45:18.580 to some extent led to the creation of the united states and whatever gradually over time it was

00:45:23.360 part of the process um did it destroy people with facts and logic it actually did believe it or not

00:45:30.300 And so social media, modern technology, it's kind of like a nuclear printing press.

00:45:36.020 It's like Time's on crack.

00:45:38.540 It's a printing press on crack.

00:45:40.240 And so this is a conversation and a debate that needs to be had.

00:45:44.580 I don't covet, as David Starkey said.

00:45:48.540 I don't think we can just say, well, look, everything should be everywhere and anything

00:45:54.660 should be discussed without any rules at all.

00:45:57.720 I don't think so.

00:45:58.480 I don't think, you know, people saying

00:46:01.160 we should go and burn down 5G masks or whatever

00:46:03.380 should be on YouTube.

00:46:05.240 But then where do you set that line?

00:46:06.900 I don't really have an answer.

00:46:09.060 I think if somebody is an expert in their field,

00:46:12.840 they should be allowed to talk.

00:46:15.360 But what if they're not an expert in their field?

00:46:17.680 What if they are just someone who, for some reason,

00:46:19.800 like Brett Weinstein, he's not an epidemiologist or virologist.

00:46:23.460 He's an evolutionary biologist.

00:46:25.300 So theoretically, you could argue he's not an expert on this stuff.

00:46:28.480 but he's hosted conversations with people who are.

00:46:31.520 So have we.

00:46:32.280 That doesn't mean that we are experts on it.

00:46:34.140 I think we are.

00:46:35.980 Yeah, me and you.

00:46:36.920 Well, you're going to get all your COVID updates

00:46:39.140 from us going forward.

00:46:40.220 Yeah.

00:46:40.920 We've got another, let's say, 10, 15 minutes.

00:46:44.440 Is there anything else you want to talk about?

00:46:47.260 The thing that I find worrying is

00:46:49.540 how big tech censorship

00:46:53.100 is essentially eroding freedom of speech.

00:46:55.820 and again people aren't worried about it we saw it with trump we saw it with hunter biden

00:47:03.200 and now we're seeing it with covid but see francis you say that though and i'm gonna have a go at

00:47:08.480 you here because you weren't worried about that story with hunter biden when i told you about 0.96

00:47:13.220 initially either because because it's all it's all like this shit that we can't do anything about 0.69

00:47:17.660 when it happened i came in into this very room and i said to you and anton both like this is 0.90

00:47:23.180 one of the biggest stories ever and you were like yeah okay what's for breakfast and then

00:47:27.860 most other people also react that way to it because they feel like there's nothing they can 0.91

00:47:32.780 do so maybe from your own psychological like health point of view maybe not giving a shit 0.61

00:47:39.100 about all this stuff is the right decision you know i think about my granddad who's who's he

00:47:44.880 died many years ago but like all he wanted to do in his life was have a farm grow vegetables

00:47:52.880 have chickens, have grandkids

00:47:55.300 that he could feed the chickens to,

00:47:57.300 you know, and just do that.

00:48:00.060 And he's the happiest man I've ever met.

00:48:01.840 He was the happiest man.

00:48:03.020 I'm not as happy as my grandfather 1.00

00:48:04.500 worrying about all this shit. 0.99

00:48:06.860 Maybe that's the right decision. 1.00

00:48:08.080 Maybe we should just go and live on a farm.

00:48:10.580 Yeah, but ultimately what will happen with this

00:48:12.640 will affect you.

00:48:15.300 Look at lockdowns.

00:48:16.440 That will affect people on the farm eventually.

00:48:19.760 And that part of that is dictated

00:48:21.720 to what's happening online.

00:48:23.560 If there's a massive pushback to what is happening online,

00:48:29.380 that will affect government's decision.

00:48:32.300 We've seen that.

00:48:33.560 We've seen how things and movements and organizations online

00:48:38.220 have affected people in the real world.

00:48:41.740 So what, we're just not going to have this conversation?

00:48:45.340 We're going to strangle it right at the source?

00:48:47.700 And if we continue to do that, I really think we're done.

00:48:53.680 I think we're done.

00:48:55.380 And I find that really worrying.

00:48:57.680 I find it just baffling and again heartbreaking.

00:49:01.780 And what do you mean when you say we're done?

00:49:04.660 Because we have lost our ability to challenge.

00:49:08.560 We've lost our ability to discuss.

00:49:10.460 We've lost our ability to share ideas.

00:49:12.500 And we've lost our ability to create new solutions.

00:49:15.400 Well, what about, we're having this conversation here now

00:49:18.560 to a certain number of people.

00:49:21.220 You and I will both be on GB News, putting this point forward.

00:49:24.980 You know, Dan Wooden, whose show I'm on,

00:49:27.120 regularly challenges lockdowns and talks about it.

00:49:30.280 There are other people with big audiences.

00:49:33.440 You know, Joe Rogan has just hosted Brett Weinstein

00:49:35.500 and Pierre, I think, Corey is his name.

00:49:37.860 Like, the conversations are still possible.

00:49:41.420 They're still being had.

00:49:42.180 But they agreed.

00:49:45.400 but they can't happen.

00:49:48.860 Rogan absented himself from YouTube.

00:49:51.500 He left.

00:49:52.540 Maybe it's because he got a sweet deal,

00:49:54.040 or maybe we're not giving him enough credit,

00:49:56.260 and he saw which way the wind was blowing.

00:49:58.640 So he absented himself.

00:50:00.220 He left the platform.

00:50:02.240 GB News, right?

00:50:03.780 You are not going to be able to go into as much detail

00:50:07.600 as you can in these shows here.

00:50:10.460 And we know there's a lot more we'd like to be talking about,

00:50:14.280 and we can't because if we do

00:50:16.660 yeah lovely ones

00:50:18.440 but because if we do

00:50:20.840 we lose the channel

00:50:21.660 and that's censorship

00:50:25.060 it just is

00:50:26.080 it just is

00:50:29.720 and it's very very very worrying

00:50:31.820 because maybe the government's right on everything

00:50:34.080 but shouldn't they be challenged

00:50:36.600 and shouldn't they be challenged by people

00:50:38.800 who are experts in their field

00:50:40.140 who have medical background

00:50:41.920 the correct medical background

00:50:43.680 Look, this is the point I made when we were having that conversation about Dr. Bhakti.

00:50:49.220 Why doesn't the government, if Dr. Bhakti was wrong about every single thing,

00:50:54.600 if Brett is wrong about every single thing,

00:50:56.580 which let's just for the sake of argument say that,

00:50:59.520 how hard is it for the government to put out a video

00:51:03.980 which breaks down our interview with Dr. Bhakti

00:51:06.940 or breaks down our interview with Brett

00:51:08.840 or breaks down his interview with the other people

00:51:11.880 he's interviewed about ivermectin and vaccines and whatever and go well you are being told this

00:51:17.800 here's the medical and scientific data to counteract that point and to counteract this 0.93

00:51:23.260 point and and look you know what fuck it i mean youtube is attaching all these covid warnings to 0.77

00:51:28.940 any discussion about covid fine take our video with dr bhagdi and link that other debunking video 0.97

00:51:36.700 right there. I don't care if you run an ad every fucking 15, 20 minutes in that interview going,

00:51:42.900 here's an alternative explanation by a government approved scientist. Fine. Give people the 0.97

00:51:47.980 information. But why are you suppressing that discussion in the first place? To me, the answer

00:51:53.240 is always to educate people. I want to be educated. I want people to tell me what is wrong with what

00:51:59.720 Dr. Bakhti said. I'd love to hear that. Yeah. I'd love to get a clear, simple, scientific

00:52:07.540 explanation. Look, I'm not a scientist, but I've got a mind enough to be able to understand things

00:52:12.640 if they explain to me well enough. Let's have that explanation. Let's have the interview that

00:52:18.100 we did or the interviews that other people did be the launching pad for a genuine conversation

00:52:23.340 between scientists and let the public see how science is supposed to happen. Yeah.

00:52:29.720 This is the thing that's really been pissing me off about the last 18 months is this idea,

00:52:36.020 Francis, that we have been following the science is absurd nonsense.

00:52:40.580 Of course it is.

00:52:41.180 It doesn't mean anything.

00:52:42.120 We had a story just the other day that in this country, the restaurants and bars were

00:52:46.480 forced to put up these plastic...

00:52:48.140 And comedy clubs.

00:52:49.340 ...separators between different tables in different groups.

00:52:52.520 Turns out they helped COVID to spread.

00:52:56.220 Is that following the science?

00:52:57.920 No.

00:52:58.120 is keeping people mostly indoors for a year

00:53:00.740 when we know the virus doesn't spread outdoors, essentially.

00:53:03.920 And it actually boosts your immune system

00:53:06.900 so you're more resistant to it if you're outdoors,

00:53:08.960 if you're exercising.

00:53:09.980 And we were allowed to go out once for months.

00:53:12.620 Is that following the science?

00:53:13.880 And we know vitamin D,

00:53:15.120 if you have high levels of vitamin D...

00:53:16.960 You need the sun.

00:53:17.900 I remember how people had a go at me

00:53:19.680 when I said people should be allowed to sunbathe.

00:53:21.900 And all of Twitter piled up on me going,

00:53:24.520 you were responsible, you're killing granny. 1.00

00:53:26.320 That's not following the science.

00:53:27.580 No.

00:53:27.720 And that is the conversation that needs to be had.

00:53:31.140 But it's an infantile slogan.

00:53:33.600 There is no such thing as the science.

00:53:36.780 And this idea that there is consensus between all the different scientists is wrong.

00:53:43.200 They don't all believe the same thing.

00:53:44.900 They don't all think the same thing.

00:53:46.540 They all have their different viewpoints and beliefs. 1.00

00:53:49.180 This idea that we're all following this one magical thing called the science, it's crap. 1.00

00:53:55.900 And it's infantile. 1.00

00:53:57.280 and it's stupid and it's immature 1.00

00:53:59.440 and you're treating people like idiots. 1.00

00:54:02.220 I agree. 1.00

00:54:03.100 And people know this.

00:54:04.280 Yeah.

00:54:05.160 Oh, none of our rules make sense.

00:54:07.020 Yeah.

00:54:07.500 Why is it I can walk into a gym, right?

00:54:09.820 And I wear my mask

00:54:10.840 and then I walk up the little stairs

00:54:12.980 but then I go into the changing room

00:54:14.580 where I'm surrounded by lots of other little people

00:54:16.320 and I get out

00:54:17.400 and then I walk, songs mask,

00:54:20.280 into a room with 40 other people

00:54:23.360 and I lift weights

00:54:24.520 and I'm breathing everything out.

00:54:26.380 And you're touching objects that they then touch themselves.

00:54:28.780 Yeah.

00:54:29.420 And then I put my little mask on

00:54:31.500 and then I walk downstairs out of the gym.

00:54:35.980 That's just a nonsense.

00:54:38.180 I was walking down in the park the other day.

00:54:40.640 Somebody had cordoned off a log.

00:54:44.000 There was hazard tape around the log.

00:54:46.860 Like we're going to go and touch the log and die.

00:54:51.980 You know, one-way systems in a supermarket,

00:54:55.640 Well, like the virus is going to go,

00:54:57.080 oh, right, yeah, sorry, I have to go up this way

00:54:59.800 in order to get to the fruit and veg oil

00:55:01.900 in order to infect people there.

00:55:03.540 Yeah, or you walk into a restaurant,

00:55:05.460 you wear a mask, you get to your table,

00:55:07.120 virus stops working when you're sitting down.

00:55:08.880 Yeah.

00:55:09.260 It just operates at a high level.

00:55:10.900 Exactly, you know.

00:55:12.700 So I'm going to regret asking this question, Francis,

00:55:15.480 because this is not a question that you should ever be asked,

00:55:18.520 but are you optimistic about anything in the future?

00:55:20.860 No, no.

00:55:21.680 No, look, there are some good things

00:55:23.580 that's going to be coming out of this.

00:55:24.760 Number one, we've all had, in the words of Reginald D. Hunter,

00:55:29.940 we've all been sent to our bedrooms to think about what we've done

00:55:32.620 and some good is going to be coming out of that.

00:55:34.840 We've had moments of self-reflection.

00:55:36.780 I think we've realised that the way we had of working,

00:55:39.220 our methods and our manners of working were pretty much unsustainable.

00:55:42.760 The idea really that for the vast majority of people

00:55:45.600 that you need to commute into work every day,

00:55:48.400 I mean, it belongs in the Victorian times.

00:55:50.140 There's a lot of people who can do two days at work

00:55:53.980 in the office three days at home. You don't need to be in work all the time, all day, every day.

00:56:01.540 But I think the problem is, as you said yourself, the cat's now out of the bag. We've done this,

00:56:09.100 we've set a precedent, and we're going to be able to do it again. And any time

00:56:14.620 the NHS is in danger of being overwhelmed, which is every winter, you've got to be aware humans act

00:56:22.940 in their own self-interest.

00:56:25.040 Are you going to want to be the politician

00:56:26.500 who let the NHS become overwhelmed?

00:56:30.000 Do you want to be that person?

00:56:31.760 Because there's always going to be one story in the mail,

00:56:34.280 you know, little girl had leukemia, blah, blah, blah,

00:56:36.960 contracted flu and died.

00:56:38.740 All right, something like that,

00:56:39.800 which is obviously awful.

00:56:40.800 Of course it is.

00:56:41.800 No one's going to advocate that.

00:56:42.940 It's heartbreaking for her, her parents,

00:56:44.620 all the rest of her family.

00:56:47.300 But you could have saved her life

00:56:48.720 if you just locked down.

00:56:50.860 Will be the argument. 0.79

00:56:51.880 The fact that you end up killing loads of other people with cancer

00:56:54.920 doesn't really matter in that discussion.

00:56:56.720 It doesn't matter.

00:56:57.380 Yeah.

00:56:58.680 Because you are protecting your own reputation as a politician.

00:57:04.160 And they're going to do that because it's a survival mechanism.

00:57:08.200 Because they're acting in their own self-interest.

00:57:11.320 Anton, we're going to call this episode of the show

00:57:13.220 10 Reasons to be Cheerful.

00:57:15.620 Well, I agree with you.

00:57:17.000 and I actually don't want to end on a positive here

00:57:22.520 because you need to be depressed.

00:57:25.880 No, it's not that you need to be depressed,

00:57:27.480 but I think the thing you and I have always tried to do

00:57:32.280 with varying degrees of success

00:57:34.480 is be honest with people who watch the show,

00:57:36.900 whether that's when we're doing Raw

00:57:38.520 or when we're doing interviews.

00:57:39.660 We've tried our best to ask the questions

00:57:42.580 that we find interesting,

00:57:44.600 of people that we find interesting,

00:57:46.380 and to have honest conversations and the truth is this is how you and I both feel so for us I

00:57:53.800 know that for a lot of people our show is you know particularly the roars can be light relief

00:57:58.260 and it's just us taking the piss out whatever's happening and you've got to and we will continue

00:58:02.720 to do that but I also think that if there's a small chance to reverse some of this crap that's

00:58:09.800 been happening which i i'm i'll be honest i'm skeptical that there is but if there is

00:58:15.000 it's in everybody who watches the show and everybody who comes across it

00:58:20.280 understanding what's happening and writing to their mp uh going on protest whatever it is

00:58:27.680 that that's gonna prevent this from rolling and getting even worse which is where it's going

00:58:34.140 and we've got a level of people about it now people can take a different view of course they

00:58:38.740 can and and and by the way i'm not saying any of what i've said and i don't think you're saying

00:58:44.540 any of what you've said because you think you have some unique power of prediction i'm not saying

00:58:50.440 this is what will happen i'm saying this is the direction of travel and i hope it can be reversed

00:58:58.440 which is one of the reasons that you and i've had this conversation because you know in a very very

00:59:02.580 small way not to pretend to be bigger than anything that we are you know making people who who think

00:59:08.420 that what we have to say about it has some value,

00:59:11.660 making them aware of what's happening

00:59:13.200 can contribute to that.

00:59:15.840 But yeah, I don't want to end this on a cheap joke

00:59:18.980 because it's just the truth.

00:59:20.580 It's what you and I believe at this point.

00:59:22.740 You know, it just is what it is.

00:59:24.960 And birds love it.

00:59:25.920 And birds absolutely love it.

00:59:27.940 Not ending on a cheap joke.

00:59:29.680 Well, we're going to do some questions for locals,

00:59:31.560 which we're building up.

00:59:32.600 Looking forward to it.

00:59:33.800 But thank you for watching.

00:59:35.140 and remember

00:59:36.380 this is just

00:59:38.240 two comedians

00:59:38.940 talking

00:59:39.260 we could be

00:59:39.840 completely wrong

00:59:40.520 but we're probably not

00:59:41.860 we hope you've enjoyed

00:59:45.240 this incredible interview

00:59:46.960 remember to subscribe

00:59:48.080 and hit the bell button

00:59:49.740 so that you never miss

00:59:51.220 another fantastic episode

00:59:52.920 and if you believe

00:59:54.160 that the work

00:59:54.840 we do here

00:59:55.640 at Trigonometry

00:59:56.420 is important

00:59:57.260 support us

00:59:58.220 by joining

00:59:58.780 our locals community

00:59:59.840 using the link below

TRIGGERnometry - May 21, 2020

TRIGGERnometry DESTROYS TRIGGERnometry

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript