TRIGGERnometry - Triggernometry Employee Speaks Out - Sophie Spital

00:00:00.720 If I were born 10 years later, you know, but for the grace of God,

00:00:05.680 there's no doubt in my mind that I would have transitioned.

00:00:09.300 I got really involved in, like, feminism about, like, 10-odd years ago.

00:00:15.480 I think what sucked me into it in the first place was this kind of revelation of, like,

00:00:19.460 everything is socially constructed.

00:00:21.640 And it became quite clear to me that it's just like, no, that's not the case.

00:00:25.240 The fact that I was autistic getting diagnosed was what helped me.

00:00:28.360 I think there is a link.

00:00:30.080 I think it's something like 40% of girls who transition are autistic.

00:00:35.720 Why are we not talking about this?

00:00:37.820 Letting children do whatever they want is not kind.

00:00:40.160 No, and it might make you feel like you're doing the kind thing,

00:00:42.560 and the whole society can tell you it's kind.

00:00:44.400 But what we're doing now is, like, the least kind thing that could ever be done to children.

00:00:58.360 Hello, and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:01.120 I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:02.420 I'm Constantine Kissinger.

00:01:03.540 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:08.720 Our fantastic guest today is somebody you have not seen on the podcast circuit.

00:01:13.160 She is, in fact, the first person that we ever hired to work with us here at Trigonometry.

00:01:17.260 She edits most of the videos that you guys see,

00:01:19.980 and she has a very interesting story to tell about some of the things that we talk about regularly on the show.

00:01:24.700 Sophie Spital, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:26.060 Thank you. It's nice to be here. A bit weird, but yeah.

00:01:28.540 A bit weird to be on the other side of the camera.

00:01:31.140 Yeah, exactly.

00:01:31.860 It's great to actually have this conversation.

00:01:34.140 You've been building up to it for a long time.

00:01:35.920 We'll get into the stuff that you want to talk about and we want to ask you about.

00:01:39.820 Before we do, though, what has been the journey that's taken you to be sitting here?

00:01:43.360 Because you were the first person we hired, as I said.

00:01:46.400 You emailed us saying, hey, are you looking for anybody?

00:01:49.700 And it kind of took off from there.

00:01:50.940 What's been your journey through life?

00:01:52.140 Yeah, well, I come from Chelmsford in Essex.

00:01:56.580 That's where I was born.

00:01:57.720 I moved to Brighton, which is, for anyone who doesn't know, it's like the Portland, Oregon of the UK.

00:02:04.800 So it's a very, very progressive place.

00:02:07.120 I got really involved in feminism about 10 odd years ago because I was trying to do the right thing.

00:02:17.620 At the time, it was that kind of liberal feminism of that sort of intersectional. 1.00

00:02:22.840 It's totally different from the feminism. 1.00

00:02:24.320 And then she met us.

00:02:26.540 But yeah, so I was really involved with that.

00:02:28.900 And I would have considered myself at that point woke.

00:02:32.920 Like I actually, like I've found diary stuff from that time.

00:02:36.740 And I actually did call myself woke.

00:02:38.100 It's like not a pejorative, just actually, you know, and I was proud of it.

00:02:41.260 And I was very like into that progressive stuff.

00:02:43.160 And then, well, long story short on that one, I got very disillusioned with it when I saw that it didn't actually marry up with like reality.

00:02:51.720 And there was a bit, there were some good, good seeds, seeds of truth in there.

00:02:56.240 But I moved away from that.

00:02:58.060 But I was really, really passionate about the truth and doing the right thing and doing what's good and right in the world.

00:03:03.660 And that's kind of why I never really kind of make fun of or, you know, I don't think people are stupid on the other side,

00:03:12.420 because I'm like, I know a lot of them are really well meaning.

00:03:15.560 And a lot of them, they just, they want to be, they want to do the moral right thing in their lives.

00:03:20.580 And that was what was given me at the time.

00:03:22.440 Anyway, so I, then I got really into listening to Douglas Murray, he was the gateway drug to basically leaving behind a lot of the leftism that I had at the time.

00:03:38.440 I was really passionate about, yeah, getting to the truth.

00:03:41.500 And I just saw these people, that a lot of people have been on the show, speaking this truth that I realised just wasn't, wasn't marrying up with what people said about what these people are. 0.98

00:03:54.680 Like, these people are evil, racist bigots. 0.84

00:03:56.600 And I was like, well, if I actually listen to what they say, that's not the case. 0.98

00:03:59.740 And so I kind of flipped from being on the far left to being, well, not on the far right.

00:04:04.860 I'm not sure I like that analogy.

00:04:06.500 Onto the legitimate right.

00:04:10.100 And then I'm a bit, I'm a bit like that.

00:04:12.280 I go to extremes and I've been finding, finding, finding my place on, on that stuff.

00:04:17.380 Anyway, but then, so I started listening to a lot of this stuff and then I found trigonometry in, during the lockdown, actually, the first lockdown.

00:04:25.580 And I was just like, someone said, my friend Ruth was like, oh, just check this out.

00:04:29.600 I think you'll like this.

00:04:30.260 And I looked through the feed and I was like, oh my gosh, it's like all the people I love and listen to.

00:04:34.100 And so I got hooked on that.

00:04:36.820 And then I messaged you guys being like, you know, hey, can, is there anything I can do to help?

00:04:41.240 And unbeknownst to me at that time, young, sweet Anton, who's the producer, was completely inundated with stuff.

00:04:49.060 And so I stepped in and pretty much took over from there.

00:04:52.680 You absolutely did.

00:04:53.840 And look, actually, the thing that we want to talk to you about isn't wokeness necessarily.

00:04:57.740 No, no, not at all.

00:04:58.380 But I was curious that you said that you were, obviously, we've talked about this before.

00:05:04.300 She's spilling water on herself.

00:05:05.860 She's got coffee and classic soap. 1.00

00:05:07.660 Yeah.

00:05:08.420 You were talking about the fact that you were in this kind of liberal feminist mindset. 1.00

00:05:13.980 Yeah.

00:05:14.140 And then you mentioned that it didn't marry up to reality, which is what sort of shook you out of that to some extent.

00:05:21.560 Yeah.

00:05:21.940 What was it that made you think that it didn't marry up to reality?

00:05:26.460 Like what were some of the clashes between reality and ideology that you experienced?

00:05:31.460 Good question.

00:05:32.540 There was a lot of stuff like, I think what sucked me into it in the first place was this kind of revelation of like everything is socially constructed.

00:05:42.100 So, for example, you look at things, people come to you and they say, well, why do we have blue as the boy color and pink for the girl color?

00:05:50.580 And you go, oh, yeah, they're just arbitrary colors.

00:05:53.120 They, you know, but we've assigned this to them.

00:05:54.880 And then a lot of stuff was you see stuff and I still see online about like children's clothes.

00:06:01.780 And it's like all the boys clothes are like building and fighting and, you know, triumphing.

00:06:06.940 All the girls clothes are like be kind, you know, be sweet, lovely. 1.00

00:06:10.460 And at the time, the narrative was everything is socially constructed.

00:06:15.560 So there's no difference between men and women at all.

00:06:17.580 It's literally just how we socialize them in society.

00:06:20.060 And I've really bought into that even to the extent where I didn't believe that there was such thing as someone being subjectively beautiful.

00:06:25.540 Like I remember arguing with someone being like, are you only think she's beautiful because, you know, you've been socialized that way and all this kind of stuff.

00:06:32.260 Really?

00:06:32.580 Yeah, legitimately.

00:06:34.280 So I was like online in line with the thinking, even like the kind of thinking you see now, which is like, no disrespect, but people being like obese with a shaved head and like loads of piercings.

00:06:46.300 But saying like, I'm, I'm a 10 and I'm just as attractive as this person.

00:06:50.560 You just don't understand it because you've been, you know, anyway, but, but the crack.

00:06:54.360 So, so, sorry to interrupt.

00:06:55.460 You know what?

00:06:55.940 That makes your point so well about, you know, the people on the other side of there is such a thing.

00:07:01.340 Yeah. 0.95

00:07:01.520 And not stupid because you're an incredibly smart person and you're very intelligent, but for you to believe something that factually incorrect is quite incredible, right? 0.98

00:07:13.860 Because our standards of beauty are based on biology and hip ratio and all of that. 0.99

00:07:19.560 Symmetry and all of that.

00:07:21.060 Yeah.

00:07:21.200 So it's, it's so interesting that, that you could have been dissuaded to think that way.

00:07:27.480 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:07:27.880 Well, the thing is, I'm a bit of an all or nothing person.

00:07:31.500 And so when I was, saw the seed of this, I jumped into it and I started seeing everything through that lens.

00:07:36.360 And actually quite quickly, because I went into it full throttle, like I, I saw the, the faults in it very quickly as well, because, you know, it was just like, it's a sort of a blessing and a curse because it kind of means that I can throw myself into something and I can be in it, like fully in it.

00:07:57.580 And then see the problems like very quickly as well.

00:08:00.280 But yeah, so I started to see how this just doesn't marry up with reality.

00:08:03.720 And I started to understand, well, actually, you know, there are reasons.

00:08:08.500 I started learning a little bit more about the differences, like between men and women, like neurologically and, you know, in terms of our bodies and everything.

00:08:17.440 And it became quite clear to me that it's just like, no, that's not the case.

00:08:21.300 And again, even with the thing about, as I said, school, sorry, not school, clothing in like shops, it's the message that you get at the time was, you know, boys and girls are blank slates. 0.70

00:08:33.220 And we've socialized girls to be into flowers and pretty things and the boys into this.

00:08:38.440 But the reality is, is that the market is following the response.

00:08:43.920 The market isn't interested in like churning out like strong boys and weak girls or whatever.

00:08:49.500 The market is just following what people like.

00:08:52.200 And yes, there is probably an element.

00:08:54.260 Well, there's definitely an element of girls get socialized into it because that's the majority thing. 1.00

00:09:00.140 But it's also like the reason that, you know, if they started, you know, putting loads of, if they put them boys clothes stuff on a lot of the girls clothes stuff, you know, when they're old enough to choose their own, they're not going to choose it.

00:09:14.200 They are, the girls are more likely to choose the kind of princess dress over the Spiderman outfit, like, you know, most girls. 0.92

00:09:22.120 So, yeah, I just realized it's more complicated than that, than what I'd initially thought.

00:09:28.260 And there are other things, but yeah.

00:09:29.300 Sophie, you've always been a fascinating person to me.

00:09:32.820 She is, darling.

00:09:33.980 Genuinely, you have.

00:09:35.060 And one of the things that I really enjoy talking with you, about with you, is autism, being neurologically atypical.

00:09:42.280 When did you realize that you were autistic and you saw the world in a different way? 1.00

00:09:47.340 Yeah.

00:09:48.340 Well, that was around, well, actually, I always kind of knew it because I had sensed it in many ways.

00:09:56.260 Actually, funnily enough, a lot of the things I've discovered about autism, I had no idea, were connected to autism at the time when I got diagnosed.

00:10:02.440 So I was diagnosed when I was 25.

00:10:04.240 So that's, so that's 2015.

00:10:07.060 It's not actually, it's not actually that uncommon to get diagnosed that late in life.

00:10:13.300 For most girls, actually, that's changed now because people are thinking about it a lot more.

00:10:17.780 But most women who are diagnosed were diagnosed in adulthood because they manifest differently in terms of the boys tend to kind of act out and have meltdowns and are very explosive in school.

00:10:29.440 And the girls are just kind of like, I like rules and just like working and like high achievers. 1.00

00:10:35.100 And so I was like that.

00:10:36.000 I was like that all the way through school.

00:10:37.300 It's like achievement, you know, and I did my school, my, you know, college, uni.

00:10:43.500 And then, but the problems didn't really arise until after uni because everything up until that point was very structured.

00:10:52.100 And then you finish uni and it's like, I literally have the entire world of choices and I don't know what to do.

00:10:57.820 And like the paralysis of that and other problems that I had with not being able to respond to change, executive functioning skills, so life management skills, just got me to a place of complete breakdown, really.

00:11:13.960 Like I literally, like just not being able to function in the world.

00:11:16.700 And I was very ashamed of that because at the time I didn't know it was autism.

00:11:19.280 And so I just thought, I don't get it.

00:11:22.060 Like I'm really high achieving and get high grades and, you know, a good degree and everything, but I can't like do the washing up.

00:11:28.060 And, you know, and a lot of that's due to sensory issues as well.

00:11:33.440 But yeah, so there was a lot of shame that I had attached to that and for other reasons, which we'll go into.

00:11:39.300 But yeah, the warning signs were always there.

00:11:41.220 But it is the black and white thinking and the kind of really extreme thinking, you know, which leads you to sometimes call me an extremist.

00:11:48.340 But also as well, I mean, you tell that story from your PE lesson and obviously tell it because you're going to tell it a lot better than me when it comes to identification and gender ID.

00:12:01.300 So, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:12:02.700 So, yeah.

00:12:03.580 So another part of my experience.

00:12:07.400 Let's just set the context a little bit.

00:12:09.100 Yeah, go for it.

00:12:09.680 Sorry to interrupt because I think the issue that we've talked a lot about on the show, as you well know, is how I, I mean, and this is why I asked you about wokeness because it just shows you how ideology is so powerful.

00:12:24.540 Yeah, for real.

00:12:25.000 That it can convince you, even a very smart person like you and like me and like everyone, really, of things that are just patently not true.

00:12:34.920 Yeah.

00:12:35.120 But ideology is a very powerful thing.

00:12:36.980 And one of the things we've talked a lot about on the show is the rise in transgenderism and young children in particular identifying out of their gender and so on.

00:12:48.540 Yeah.

00:12:48.680 How that marries up to, you know, a lot of the other stuff, particularly in relation to autism.

00:12:54.320 I mean, there's a clear link between people who are autistic and people who are transitioning.

00:12:59.560 And a lot of people essentially are making the argument that the overwhelming majority of the increase in recent years is basically autistic and gay children.

00:13:09.820 Yeah.

00:13:10.800 Sort of looking for an answer to why they're different.

00:13:13.700 Yeah.

00:13:13.960 And ending up in this new thing.

00:13:16.300 Yeah.

00:13:16.620 And the reason we wanted to have you on is that that is actually, to some extent, your experience.

00:13:22.000 So tell us that now that we've set that up.

00:13:24.500 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:13:25.320 Yeah.

00:13:27.120 Yeah.

00:13:27.860 It's weird that I'm about to tell my story to however many people.

00:13:31.620 Two.

00:13:32.580 Yeah, two.

00:13:33.360 Yeah.

00:13:33.520 The cameras are off.

00:13:35.700 Yeah.

00:13:36.060 I always experienced thinking that I was a boy from a young age.

00:13:43.140 And it's hard to explain what that means, because it's like, what does that mean?

00:13:48.400 Like, and it wasn't that I wanted to be a boy or like I was telling people, I'm a boy.

00:13:55.560 I'm actually a boy.

00:13:56.360 I actually genuinely thought I was.

00:13:58.260 And I didn't realise that I was a girl until something would come along and remind me.

00:14:08.500 So I think what you were referring to, maybe, Frances, was, yeah, like, I think when I was in assembly in primary school.

00:14:13.880 So I don't know how old I was, maybe like five or something.

00:14:15.880 So, um, and the teacher asked us, asked every, well, no, sorry, the teacher asked the boys specifically a question.

00:14:23.960 And I started answering.

00:14:25.480 And I just remember the boys next to me being like, why are you answering?

00:14:28.860 You're a girl.

00:14:29.540 And I was like, oh, yeah, I'm a girl.

00:14:31.540 Yeah.

00:14:31.800 Yeah.

00:14:32.120 Got to remember that.

00:14:32.880 Got to remember that.

00:14:33.740 Um, and it was kind of like that all the way.

00:14:36.080 Like I default into thinking that I was male and that other people saw me as male.

00:14:41.840 Um, and that carried on all the way through my life really pretty much until, well, until some stuff happened later that, you know, has alleviated that.

00:14:54.620 But, but yeah, like I had that all the time.

00:14:56.780 And like, um, and even when I was like 25, like, um, my friends, um, I had my hair cut and my friends were like, oh, you know, you should get some lipstick.

00:15:09.980 Um, cause at the time I, I, I don't think I'd really worn makeup apart from when I'd been forced to for a special occasion.

00:15:15.180 But, um, I didn't like, you know, girls stuff at all. 1.00

00:15:19.220 I was completely like, I was just always with the boys and I was just a massive tomboy.

00:15:24.940 And I didn't like that stuff anyway.

00:15:27.940 Um, yeah, my friends were like, oh, let's get you some lipstick. 0.98

00:15:32.320 And they sort of marched me down to boots.

00:15:34.260 And, uh, I mean, obviously I love lipstick now.

00:15:38.280 I love it now.

00:15:39.420 Like it's actually, it's quite fun.

00:15:40.840 It's like a little sort of coloring in book at the start of the day, every day, which is fun for me.

00:15:44.940 But like the, we went there, they, they put the lipstick on me and I just genuinely felt like just really like ashamed.

00:15:54.020 Because I just felt, well, I felt like a clown, first of all.

00:15:58.220 Um, and then when I walked home wearing the makeup, I was just like expecting everyone to look at me like, you know, like, you know, cause I thought that they were seeing a man.

00:16:09.560 The way people might look at a man wearing obvious makeup.

00:16:12.380 Yeah, exactly.

00:16:13.080 And I thought that they were, they would see a man walking down the street in drag.

00:16:17.560 So I thought I'd draw, you know, stairs, but then I had to remind myself, oh no, you're a woman. 1.00

00:16:23.520 And so they're seeing a woman wearing lipstick, which is normal for them. 0.96

00:16:27.140 Um, and so like, and that was, as I say, when I was 25, before I was diagnosed.

00:16:30.820 So, um, that was kind of my story all the way through life.

00:16:35.140 And, and it wasn't the done thing back in those days to, especially not for girls to, um, do anything about it because you don't, you just, you just say, I'm a tomboy and I'm comfortable with these things.

00:16:47.660 And I just carry on.

00:16:48.780 Also, there's no, like the reason why, um, up until very recently with the whole explosion of girls identifying as trans, it was pretty much all boys.

00:16:58.280 And I think the reason for that, one of the reasons for that is that there's no socially safe way for a boy to sort of, um, gender bend, as it were.

00:17:07.740 Like for me, I just wore shorts and t-shirts and whatever.

00:17:12.960 So I could wear boys' clothes, but it didn't look like I was cross-dressing.

00:17:16.600 Whereas if you're a little boy and you, you hate being a boy and you want to be a girl, you know, you, you, you'll start wearing dresses and then, you know, you're going to very quickly, it's going to be evidence to everyone around you that there's some incongruity going on there.

00:17:28.860 And Sophie, did you feel, apart from this one instance with the makeup, did, did this cause you particular distress?

00:17:34.520 Did you feel a sense of discomfort or disgust for your own body, which is what some people talk about?

00:17:39.880 Yeah.

00:17:40.640 Um, well, actually, interestingly, I feel like the pressure almost like in terms of fitting with the narrative.

00:17:46.600 The narrative is to say, yeah, I, I really, you know, had a problem with my body.

00:17:50.060 I actually, I actually didn't.

00:17:52.060 I had, because when you, when you don't have a choice to opt out of your gender, as so many teenagers are given the choice now, you just get on with it.

00:18:01.620 And, you know, realistically speaking, there's not too many moments in one's life where your sex actually comes into play.

00:18:11.460 And so, you know, you learn to use the bathroom with this symbol on it, the lady symbol.

00:18:18.080 Um, and that's it really.

00:18:21.740 And, and when people said, referred to me as a woman, it was just a little reminder.

00:18:25.460 Oh yeah.

00:18:26.060 I mean, there was a bit of a, there was, it did hurt not being able to join in with the boys.

00:18:34.620 And like, so I explain when I talk about gender dysphoria now, which is what it is, you know, it's the, it's defined as the persistent discomfort and distress associated with your, your sex.

00:18:45.840 I think that's the right definition.

00:18:48.460 Um, when I, yeah, when I experienced that, I talk about it in terms of like two separate categories.

00:18:57.260 There's, there's the actual thinking I was a boy and then there's the wanting to be.

00:19:02.700 So as I, the wanting to be wasn't there when I was young, but when I got older and I would have a reminder that I'm a woman, I would then have feelings of.

00:19:13.040 Oh, my life would be so much better if I were a man and everything would be, I don't know.

00:19:20.080 Like I just got really annoyed with the seemingly arbitrary things that were foisted on me as a girl to, to, that seemed to be valuable to other people.

00:19:33.100 Like in terms of looking after your appearance or whatever, like, I mean, like.

00:19:38.840 I have to wash my face every morning.

00:19:41.020 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:19:42.140 No, but seriously, it's just like, I mean, like I didn't like wash my hair, do my hair.

00:19:46.880 And I've talked about it before and I feel, I think my mum feels quite bad about it.

00:19:49.800 But, and you know, she basically said to me when I was like 13 or something, like you need to start washing your hair.

00:19:57.360 And if you don't wash your hair, like I will cut the whole lot off.

00:20:00.900 And because it genuinely got to the stage of being like matted and horrible and, and I was just so not bothered about that stuff. 0.82

00:20:10.760 And I saw it as such a waste of time and such a stupid imposition that I just, I just couldn't care less. 0.66

00:20:16.360 Anyway, she did cut all my hair off. 0.98

00:20:17.460 So she was a woman of her work.

00:20:20.480 She was.

00:20:21.040 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:20:21.560 And she feels bad about that because she thinks people will think that, you know, that she's an evil mother. 0.73

00:20:26.520 But I think it was the right thing to do, to be honest, because it did make me buck up my ideas a little bit.

00:20:30.380 But, but, but yeah, so, so there, there were, sorry, there were like those, those feelings.

00:20:38.600 But I think one of the interesting things is I see a lot of people who are going through gender dysphoria online talking about their hatred for their bodies.

00:20:46.000 But I was different in that I, I never thought about my body.

00:20:49.880 Like, I don't think I realised I had a body till I was like 23 or something, which is obviously that's a little bit exaggerated because of course, you know, you have a body.

00:20:58.700 But what I mean is I never thought about it.

00:21:01.460 Like, you know, I probably thought about my body as about as much as you think about your capillaries.

00:21:07.280 Do you know what I mean?

00:21:07.940 Like, I know they're there or, or maybe like choose something that you can actually physically see.

00:21:12.580 Like, I don't know, the crook of your elbow or something.

00:21:14.500 It's like, I know it's there, I can see it, but I never think about it.

00:21:17.860 And I didn't think about, yeah, so I actually, you know, contrary to, yeah, what a lot of people kind of experience.

00:21:28.700 With their sort of hatred of the body, I was just completely disassociated from it.

00:21:32.300 And I actually, so I had the blessing of never being in any way dissatisfied with my body because I just never thought about it.

00:21:40.280 So I was just like, it's working, it's functioning, it's fine.

00:21:43.400 Do you think that's part of the problem now is because of social media and gender ideology that kids are now being encouraged and in fact could be argued, manipulated into an obsession with their own bodies?

00:21:54.400 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:21:55.560 I mean, like, I'm showing my age, but we didn't really have social media when I was growing up back in the day.

00:22:03.300 Impersonating us.

00:22:04.060 Yeah, exactly.

00:22:06.380 Yeah, so we didn't really have social media.

00:22:08.180 So it was, there wasn't that fixation on, I mean, girls around me were always kind of, you know, especially in school, the girls were like, you know, doing their hair and makeup and stuff.

00:22:20.620 But, I mean, I actually, yeah, I think I developed quite a lot of sexism really against women because of, because of that, because I didn't understand the value of it.

00:22:34.060 And I, yeah.

00:22:36.780 Do you think they were vain or something?

00:22:38.340 Yeah.

00:22:38.700 Yeah.

00:22:39.100 Like I had a, I, when I was working through, so obviously we will come to like how, because, you know, basically there was an alleviation of my gender dysphoria.

00:22:49.980 Um, due to.

00:22:53.280 We'll get there.

00:22:53.860 Yeah, we'll get there.

00:22:54.520 But, but yeah, I realised that because of the autism and my black and white way of thinking, there just wasn't any space for like, um, there wasn't any space for nuance.

00:23:06.740 Autists don't do nuance. 1.00

00:23:08.480 I mean, I try really hard to do it now because like, I care so much about the truth and the truth is nuanced.

00:23:15.020 And so you have to, like, I have to actively go against the type to really, really work on that because it's important to me.

00:23:21.880 But I basically would just look to the girls were like, like, you know, why would you rather play with a Barbie than an action man?

00:23:31.220 An action man abseils and shoots missiles and, you know, does cool stuff, you know, rock climbing and whatever.

00:23:40.140 And, and the Barbie is literally just standing there with like a mirror.

00:23:42.620 And I was just like, and so it blew my mind that other girls would choose this.

00:23:47.080 And, you know, like now, as I say, with a bit of nuance, I understand that, you know, dolls and things like that are very good, like, um, social tools for learning many things as, um, and they're very, very useful.

00:23:59.360 And there's nothing wrong with choosing a Barbie.

00:24:01.620 But at the time I just had so much disdain for girls and that made me disassociate even further to the point where I didn't even consider myself one of them.

00:24:11.380 Um, and so I had, when I was working through trying to get over my gender dysphoria, I met with one of the, um, pastors of my church, um, Stephen, and he, you know, I was talking about it and I was like, ah, like, what, I don't want to be a woman.

00:24:29.720 Women are so, um, boring and just airheaded and all they care about is their appearance. 1.00

00:24:36.160 And, you know, like, and I'm, I'm really like, um, passionate about like philosophy and, and, and history and all these important intellectual things. 0.96

00:24:45.160 And, you know, and they're just, they're just not on my level.

00:24:48.380 And, and he was like, yo, you're being really sexist.

00:24:52.340 You need to repent, um, genuinely.

00:24:55.800 And I was like, that really just really hit me.

00:24:59.780 Cause I was just like, yeah, I am.

00:25:02.400 I'm being sexist.

00:25:03.300 And what I'd done is I'd conflated all of the worst things I'd seen about, um, this sort of picture of femininity I built up in my mind to almost make an enemy.

00:25:15.380 So if you've got an enemy, you can run away from it or fight it or whatever.

00:25:19.100 Um, and then I just realized that, I mean, obviously that was sexist.

00:25:25.180 And I'm, and I'm being a bit over the top about it, but so, but yeah, I had to work through that because I realized that there's just so many, that's so not true.

00:25:36.380 And like some of the things that I had a problem with are just women, just being women in the same way that a lot of people have problems with the things that are masculine.

00:25:47.600 And they, they, they just, you know, it's just men being men a lot of the time.

00:25:51.580 And it's like, it's not, it's just, it's just that I was an outlier on the bell curve that I resented that.

00:25:57.700 Yeah. So can we come back chronologically a little bit because, um, one of the narratives in the modern world is that a lot of, uh, young people experience all of these sort of feelings and thoughts around puberty because that's when the shock of reality of their biology comes in.

00:26:17.700 Yeah. I know it's an intimate question, but I think it's relevant to this conversation.

00:26:21.860 You would have gone through, did that not have an impact on puberty?

00:26:24.940 Yeah. Literally not at all.

00:26:26.980 Like I don't remember when I started my period. I don't remember my body changing.

00:26:30.520 I don't really literally, I couldn't give you any insight into that at all.

00:26:36.580 That's so interesting.

00:26:37.240 It was like, yeah, I have not one memory of thinking that.

00:26:41.420 That is fascinating. That is so interesting.

00:26:43.500 I think I noticed, I think once when I was in PE, when I was in high school, I noticed that I had hair on my legs for the first time.

00:26:50.680 That's the only memory I have.

00:26:52.520 Yeah. Um, okay. Well, moving on then.

00:26:56.980 From the hairy legs conversation. Uh, I'm just curious to, uh, to, to talk about the link with autism.

00:27:05.700 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:27:05.980 Because this is something you've done a lot of looking into.

00:27:09.140 For real.

00:27:09.420 How, how, how do these things connect?

00:27:12.020 Yeah. Yeah.

00:27:12.760 Well, this is the thing that I think a lot of people, people know now that it does connect.

00:27:17.300 I think several years ago I was tearing my hair out because I was just like finding out about my, how the, the, the fact that I was autistic, getting diagnosed was what helped me to, which was, which helped me to heal really from gender dysphoria.

00:27:31.760 Maybe not heal wasn't the right word, but like it alleviated it as I understood my autism because it just explained it all.

00:27:37.800 And, um, yeah, so I was looking into, um, when I found out that I had autism, when I got diagnosed, I started looking into the neuroscience of it because obviously autism is a neurodevelopmental condition.

00:27:54.520 And so I started looking into neurodevelopment. Um, I read this brilliant book by, um, Professor Sir Simon Baron-Cohen of Cambridge University.

00:28:04.620 He's like the, he's like the world leading, uh, authority on, on autism really, or one of them.

00:28:10.420 Um, but he's also like, um, world leaning in, uh, cognitive sex differences.

00:28:15.880 So the way men and women's brains work differently.

00:28:18.580 So he's about five minutes away from getting cancer.

00:28:20.320 That's true enough. Yeah. Um, so.

00:28:23.400 Uh, I was reading his book. He wrote a book called The Essential Difference, which, um, if it was brought out, if it all brought out 10 years ago, probably would have been torn to shreds.

00:28:31.980 But it was about, I think it's about 20 years old now, but he basically distills all of the scientific literature on the differences between the way men and women think into this, you know, very readable book.

00:28:42.840 And I'd recommend anyone to read it.

00:28:44.100 But, um, one of the things that I learned in that book, um, was, um, the differences between men and women in terms of, uh, what's called, um, empathy, empathizing and systematizing skill sets.

00:28:59.220 And so, like, this is kind of, this is just putting the scientific label on what we already know, which is that generally speaking, uh, the majority of men are more interested in things and concepts and systems and like problem solving and that.

00:29:13.380 And the majority of women are less interested in that and more interested in, uh, the kind of, um, emotional side of life, uh, uh, relationship building, uh, looking after children, nurturing, um, building that kind of thing. 1.00

00:29:26.880 Um, so yeah, I think summed up really, it's that most men are more interested in things and most women are more interested in people.

00:29:34.680 And, um, those, those are the bell curves.

00:29:36.860 And obviously there's outliers, which we'll come back to.

00:29:39.560 But anyway, so, um, then I learned about, uh, the extreme male brain theory of autism, because the amazing thing that, you know, that, you know, the combining is two fields of autism and cognitive sex difference.

00:29:56.880 Is that if you look at the, uh, brain of someone with autism, their brain is like an exaggerated version of the male brain, right?

00:30:08.580 So, um, really high systematizing, really low empathizing.

00:30:13.800 Um, and, um, that's, that's the same for men and women.

00:30:19.280 I mean, I've got a little graph that I can put up, but it shows the differences that, you know, you've got the men and the women.

00:30:25.880 The men are less empathic and the women are more empathic, but they're quite similar.

00:30:30.660 And then down the other end, you've got, um, really unempathic, uh, men and women with autism.

00:30:37.600 Anyway, um, obviously to learn that the autistic brain is like a male brain on crack, you know, started to answer my questions. 0.68

00:30:51.320 Because I think at that, before that I'd, I'd thought there was something wrong with me, you know, like I was, I was deeply ashamed because I, I felt like a failure as a woman before, which was one of the reasons I ran away from it.

00:31:06.660 Because I had such low levels of empathy.

00:31:11.620 I'm in like the second percentile for compassion.

00:31:15.280 So, you know, a hundred people in a room, there's like one person with less compassion than me.

00:31:19.320 Um, and that's way lower than the average for a male, um, let alone a female.

00:31:23.240 And so I'm a Christian, as you well know, a top level chrizo, as you call me.

00:31:30.080 And for me, one of the really important things to do is to love people and to, to be loving.

00:31:36.940 And, and I think I, again, like that's probably why I got involved with feminism. 1.00

00:31:41.600 Cause at the time I was like, I want to fight.

00:31:43.200 I want to do the right thing.

00:31:44.020 I want to make the world better for women. 0.99

00:31:46.720 Um, but yeah, so this injunction to be loving was so important to me, but I didn't feel loving feelings, right?

00:31:57.260 Cause I didn't have these compassionate, empathic feelings.

00:31:59.380 And I was surrounded, particularly in the church with loads of amazing, um, compassionate, like pastoral women.

00:32:06.880 And they were just, and I just felt nothing, you know?

00:32:09.940 And so I felt really deeply ashamed of that.

00:32:15.020 But then when I, so I thought I was defective.

00:32:17.020 I thought I was a failure really as a woman.

00:32:19.940 And then when I started learning about the extreme male brain stuff, I was like, well, like I'm autistic.

00:32:27.760 I'm not, I'm not, you know, I realized that I was just, um, I wasn't a man, you know,

00:32:34.160 I realized that I was just a rarer type of woman.

00:32:37.020 Um, and, and that was the key really, that just unlocked everything, you know, because, uh, I mean, it was gradual.

00:32:44.020 It was like the key turned and then the door opened really slowly.

00:32:48.240 Um, because I, yeah, I did move quite slowly into appreciating that, but it, it started to explain everything because I was like, well, okay.

00:32:55.880 Um, I don't need to, I, I was, I did try, I went for a few years of trying really hard to sort of be what I thought a woman should be, um, in terms of, I try, some of it stood me in good stead now in terms of like helping people.

00:33:14.260 But I, I, I took a lot of like lessons and training and like pastoral care.

00:33:19.160 And so like, I can, I know the right things to do.

00:33:22.080 Like if someone is in distress or like, I'm not, you know, if someone is grieving or stuff.

00:33:26.940 So I, I, I've learned actually a lot of practical skills, but it doesn't mean the feelings there.

00:33:31.100 But anyway, um, another one of my elders or, you know, pastors, same thing at church really helped me with that.

00:33:36.360 Because before I was diagnosed with autism, I went to him and I was saying, you know, I, I feel really bad because I haven't got these loving feelings and I want to be loving and I want to, you know, you know, following Jesus' footsteps and, you know, love people.

00:33:49.020 Um, but I don't feel these feelings.

00:33:50.500 And he said, you know, like, um, you know, that he basically said, you're, um, perhaps you could be the one person in a room where there's like a crisis and everyone else is overwhelmed by their emotions.

00:34:06.360 And, you know, you know, but you can be like, see through it and, you know, be like really, um, helpful in that situation and just use your gifts.

00:34:17.840 And, um, uh, yeah, that really helped me.

00:34:21.580 That really stuck with me because I realized that, that, yeah, I, I was, I was trying to, you know, I was trying to be the opposite of what I was.

00:34:33.240 Um, and now I see actually that the love primarily isn't about feelings.

00:34:41.340 Um, like any parent knows or, you know, you have to be a parent, but you were a teacher.

00:34:47.660 Um, I think you mentioned it once or twice.

00:34:50.240 Um, and also isn't your mom from Venezuela?

00:34:52.300 Exactly.

00:34:53.020 Nailed it.

00:34:53.780 Nailed it.

00:34:54.740 Um, yeah.

00:34:56.920 What was I saying?

00:34:58.180 So you.

00:34:59.120 The love isn't necessarily about feelings.

00:35:01.020 It's about actions I'm guessing.

00:35:02.640 Well, not even necessarily like you can, this is a problem I think that we really just kind of messed up with over the last few years that we, we think to be loving to someone is to just go along with everything they want.

00:35:16.740 And, you know, like if you're a loving parent and your child wants like chocolate, like just before bedtime or whatever, you just say, no, you can't have that.

00:35:27.440 And that's being loving in the moment.

00:35:29.380 Um, and they feel like, you know, you hate me or whatever.

00:35:32.400 Like you want me to die or, you know, and, but it's just like, you actually know what's best.

00:35:37.280 And what you're doing is loving and you're the, but I think at the moment we are so, I think that the, one of the only values that we, that we kind of hold to in this kind of sort of post-Christian-y sort of fade, failing liberal kind of Western project is one of the only things we have is be kind.

00:36:01.520 We just have to be kind and nice.

00:36:03.660 And that's how we know we're good people.

00:36:05.420 And I think because we, everyone wants to be good.

00:36:09.060 I think, I think most people care about it.

00:36:11.400 They want to be good.

00:36:12.100 They want to be on the right side of history.

00:36:13.780 And what they're told now is the loving good thing to be is to be kind, is to be really kind.

00:36:22.340 And so, but it isn't tempered by truth.

00:36:25.900 And, you know, I think, so here's some chrizo stuff, just pre-warning, but like the Bible says of Jesus that he was full of grace and truth. 0.81

00:36:39.240 And I think that the Western project has only flourished in as much as it's held to those, that Christly balance of grace and truth.

00:36:49.240 I want to say grace.

00:36:49.960 I mean like, you know, grace, compassion, mercy, tenderness.

00:36:53.960 We need, it's nice to show grace to someone, but you also need to do the right thing and the thing that is true.

00:37:02.820 Your point is letting children do whatever they want is not kind.

00:37:06.220 No.

00:37:06.520 And it might make you feel like you're doing the kind thing and whole society can tell you it's kind.

00:37:10.340 But what we're doing now is like the least kind thing that could ever be done to children.

00:37:14.500 And I often think about this with pronouns because like, if I were born 10 years later, you know, but for the grace of God.

00:37:24.920 And there's no doubt in my mind that I would have transitioned, that I would have gone the whole hog.

00:37:31.440 And that's the thing about autistic people is like, we go the whole hog.

00:37:34.780 You know, like if you notice.

00:37:36.200 Yeah, just a little bit.

00:37:37.520 It's just like, I got into Star Trek and like two weeks later I'd bought like a full uniform.

00:37:42.180 And like, that's just, that's just me, but that's just autists. 0.99

00:37:46.000 Like, that's what we're like.

00:37:47.140 And, and, and, and, you know, there's some beauty to that and some craziness, but going the whole hog, I would have done that with transition.

00:37:58.420 I would have had a mastectomy. 0.99

00:37:59.820 I would have, you know, it would have been, it just wasn't a solution at the time.

00:38:03.760 But like, I look back at that, I'm just like, I can't believe that, I can't believe that we're getting to, we've gotten to a place in society where we think, oh, it's okay.

00:38:17.320 Like, that, that's the loving thing to do.

00:38:19.380 Just give them what they want.

00:38:20.960 Um, when they're children, the literary children, the brain doesn't finish developing until like 25 anyway.

00:38:27.040 But to, to give, you know, puberty blockers and, and, you know, medical intervention to, to children, it's just like absolutely insane.

00:38:37.440 It's like, how do we get to this place?

00:38:39.620 And I do think it's this lack of, of like truth and like the, the value of like freedom and being loving just seems the ultimate value.

00:38:50.100 And why do you think as well?

00:38:51.980 Because I think that there must be another reason.

00:38:53.740 I accept your point.

00:38:54.600 I think that's a major part of it.

00:38:55.940 But the link between autism and gender dysphoria, why is it that we, that we are not looking into that?

00:39:04.980 Why are we not studying that?

00:39:06.620 Because that, that is, there is, there is a link.

00:39:10.560 I think it's something like 40% of girls who transition are autistic.

00:39:16.020 Why are we not talking about this?

00:39:18.060 The, the, the, the figures are scary.

00:39:20.940 Like the Tavistock, like the CQC report on the, the Tavistock, the JIDS clinic for the, for child gender transition is like 50% had autism or ADHD, which is very similar in some ways.

00:39:38.980 And there's also a report, an article written by two of the previous JIDS members of staff that say that 50% of their, like they did a strategic sort of analysis and 50% of them are autistic.

00:39:50.500 There are so many reasons why it's such an appealing prospect to autistic people.

00:39:59.400 Um, yeah, one of them is, you know, like obviously on the female side of things, you've got that kind of, yeah, that neurological shift to the male direction. 0.99

00:40:09.840 So of course, all your interests are going to be similar to your male peers, all of everything you see, like everything that's expected of you, which is kind of, again, as I say, it's, it's, it's natural.

00:40:21.320 And it's based on the, it's based on the majority, like everything we have in society is based on the majority.

00:40:26.000 So it's like, um, if you're an outlier, that's, that's going to affect you badly.

00:40:30.320 But so, uh, I think Francis' question was more about why is it that we don't look at this obvious thing that's staring us in the face as a society dealing with this issue and we're not going, well, look, if autism is, let's say it's a comorbidity.

00:40:47.040 Yeah.

00:40:47.280 So is that maybe something we should look at? Maybe we should, you know, think about that.

00:40:52.560 Do you see what I mean?

00:40:53.860 Yeah, 100%.

00:40:54.380 Um, the only thing I was just going to say about the, uh, the other side of it, which is the boys thing is that, cause you could say, oh, well, the boys are getting an extreme male brain.

00:41:02.280 So surely they should be more manly, but there's so many other things that come along with autism that are, that are gonna affect you in terms of your social impairment.

00:41:12.080 Like if you are, um, if you're just socially delayed and, and autism is a delaying thing, you know, like I was like the last in my class to learn to read.

00:41:23.000 I was, um, yeah, say I didn't know about my body until I was, you know, in my twenties, I, I, I didn't, um, yeah, I didn't make a friend until like I was 10 or something.

00:41:36.520 Um, so, um, there's, there's that delay.

00:41:40.300 And if you've got that delay and you're, and you're a boy and you're gonna be socially less confident as well.

00:41:45.520 And the girls would tend to, uh, make friends with you more like the autistic guys I know, you know, like they, most of their friends are girls because they're more accepting of your quirks or your, your, your uncoolness or whatever.

00:41:59.420 And so they take you under their wing in a way. Um, and so you, you kind of get on the boy side. Um, why don't we recognize it as a problem in society?

00:42:08.500 I mean, we are saying, oh, it's one of the many comorbidities. You say, oh, you know, a lot of people, um, who are transgender, they are some, you know, a lot of them are, you know, ADHD or a lot of them have autism. 0.68

00:42:22.000 Um, but it's just like, we've totally neglected to understand that there's a difference between having a comorbidity and something being the cause of something.

00:42:30.340 Um, so like there was a study in 2019, um, with that, that showed that of, um, what was it?

00:42:41.680 Of those who identified as trans and non-binary, 42% met the criteria for an autism diagnosis.

00:42:47.920 Um, and, you know, obviously the normal rate of autism in the general population is about 2%.

00:42:54.680 So, um, and Dr. Stagg, who led the study was like, you know, I don't know if he was a whistleblower, so to speak, more probably just following the outcome of his study.

00:43:06.260 But it was just like, we need to be screening people for autism.

00:43:10.400 Anyone who comes in to ask about gender stuff.

00:43:13.840 And yeah, as I say, the tragic thing is that we haven't looked into it, but I think I know the reason why we've been so rubbish at looking into, um, all of the comorbidities and problems and causes.

00:43:28.800 I mean, like, if you look at the, like the stats on the Tavistock from Hannah Barnes' book, um, Time to Think, which is excellent piece of journalism.

00:43:37.320 Um, the stats are just terrifying.

00:43:40.400 It's like 2.5% or something of the intake didn't have any kind of major, like, um, issue with, uh, like abuse or, um, uh, yeah, neurodivergence or, uh, I think 25% of them had been in care compared to 0.67% of the population.

00:44:02.740 Like, a lot of them had had, like, 10 times more likely to have experienced, um, abuse, like sexual abuse, I think.

00:44:10.180 Um, there are all these things, like, there's self-harm, there's OCD, there's, there's all these different things, and they weren't looked at, but I think I know the reason.

00:44:16.480 Um, and the reason is, like, well, I, I split society, I split life, as we know it, history, into two eras.

00:44:26.240 So I think there's the era of old trans and the era of new trans, and the era of old trans goes up to about 2017, I'd say, around that period, and then new, the era of new trans is everything after that, and these are two wildly different, uh, ways of looking at, uh, the trans experience.

00:44:46.360 So, um, up until 2017, um, the way that we thought of the trans experience was, like, if you, it wouldn't have been, like, because I lived in Brighton, as I say, I live in Brighton, and you would sometimes see a fella in a dress 10 years ago, 15 years ago.

00:45:08.160 Um, and, but if you'd spoken to him at the time, and you said, like, um, oh, you know, why you, why you wearing a dress, he might say, well, I know I'm a man, but, like, I feel more comfortable in women's clothes, and I've always related to women, and I always, you know, I've always identified with women.

00:45:25.020 Um, but then, when this shift happened around 2017, people went from saying that they identify with women, to identify as a woman.

00:45:37.200 And so, we went from saying, I feel like something, to I am something, and the repercussions of that, that little shift, affect literally everything.

00:45:50.520 Like, it is all, the entire problem that we have now is all down to this shift, and I can give you myriad examples, but, like, the, so, I mean, we had Marcus Evans on the show, a whistleblower from the Tavistock.

00:46:05.240 Like, he'd been there for, like, 35 years, um, you know, consultant, psychotherapist, I think, and he said, you know, like, in the old days, you know, before this big shift and everything, if someone comes in saying, you know, I'm really distressed, you know, like, I feel, like, trapped in the wrong body or whatever, the treatment pathway for them was exploratory therapy.

00:46:26.140 So, it's like, um, let's look at your life in the round, let's look at, um, you know, your relationship with your parents, relationship with your peers, um, has there been any abuse, any trauma, um, what are your expectations of what actually means to be a man or a woman in the world?

00:46:44.160 Well, you know, talk us through that, um, and all these different things, and they explore those things, but when this new kind of way of thinking of saying it's your identity, and it's who you are, rather than just feelings that you have, came in, you can't do that anymore.

00:46:59.160 Because if your gender is who you are, um, and you, it's not that you feel like a boy, you can't treat something that you are.

00:47:10.320 Yeah, quite. Yeah. I mean, if it's like, it, because it would be transphobic, it'd be like, or it'd be like someone with Down syndrome going into the doctor, they don't try to cure your Down syndrome, or they try and cure you of being black.

00:47:23.960 Like, it's just like, um, because it's, that would be, yeah, well, no, it's not even your identity. It's who you are. It's intrinsic to your, so this is the thing. So like, there's, in the old days, it was seen as, again, the reason I'm giving this 2017 cutoff point is because something strange happened there.

00:47:46.000 I think it might be to do with people needing to shore up their sense of being a good person in the wake of Brexit and Trump. Very, very polarising year 2016, and people were desperate to kind of, I think, know, convince themselves and others that they were on the right side, and this was the thing that came along.

00:48:05.160 And, and you have certain things that came along around that time, like India Willoughby, former guest of the show, was on Celebrity Big Brother in 2018.

00:48:13.400 I'm a real woman, Amanda. I want you to know that. A real woman. Okay. I'm glad that's sinking in. I'm going to say one more time, so it really penetrates. I am a real woman. Okay.

00:48:25.080 And then obviously, around that time, you see the emergence of the phrase, like, trans women are women. And, and so, and in fact, if you think about it, when was the last time you heard someone say, identify as a woman? They don't do it anymore. They don't even say that anymore. So it, so the identify as a woman dropped. So, so now it's, it's who you are. And as I say, so once, yeah, I thought, so when I read Time to Think, the book about the Tavistock, I thought, I had this idea in my head that

00:48:51.720 the kids are coming along to the Tavistock being referred and there must be some, like, it, it can't just be that they rubber stamp them and said, oh, you know, puberty blockers.

00:49:03.500 There's adults in the room. It's all not the way that people say in the media. It's all being properly looked into.

00:49:08.140 And you would think that because you're like, this is a place of clinicians. It's on the NHS. It's, it's being overseen. There's no way. And you read the book and you're like, oh, flip, it actually was like that. Like there was so much intervention from, from like mermaids

00:49:21.500 and other like politicized bodies and such a culture of fear, um, that they were literally just being like, okay. Uh, what they had this thing called, this model called gender affirming care, which is, um, you know, an Orwellian sort of, uh, uh, twisting of words really, because, you know, it's like, you know, the, to really affirm someone who would be to say, you're, you're brilliant just the way you are.

00:49:47.500 You don't need to change, you don't need to try and fit into these sex stereotypes and, you know, you go for it. But anyway, so this affirming care, which comes in with this idea of it's who you intrinsically are, um, that just made everything a problem.

00:50:03.280 It sort of solidified it and it became the gold standard, not just the gold standard of care, but like the American Psychological Association and all these top bodies said, this is the way to care.

00:50:13.420 And if you're not doing that, if you're just exploring it, like in the old days, you're kind of casting down their problems, uh, sorry, you're casting down on their identity and who they intrinsically are.

00:50:24.580 And it's not that they've got a problem. They've just discovered the truth of who they are. Um, and, but, but this, this problem, this shift from, I feel like to, I am this old trans way of thinking and this new trans way of thinking has affected everything else as well. 0.71

00:50:38.660 So it's not just, um, you know, autistic and gay and other vulnerable children being, um, treated because of this, um, you know, in my mind, a massive medical scandal, um, and that medical neglect, but it's also, um, we see it in every area, like in terms of women's spaces.

00:50:59.820 Um, because it's, again, it's like old trans, you've got a man who, you know, he feels like a woman, he feels comfortable in the clothes, fine, but it's not going in the women's change rooms because he's not entitled to, he's not a woman. 0.94

00:51:11.820 But now it's like, well, he is a woman and therefore, you know, he's entitled to that, that space. And this is why, this is why I think people, a lot of people just think, I don't get this trans argument.

00:51:24.900 Like, why can't we just live and let live? And why can't they just reconcile? Because it can't be reconciled.

00:51:31.900 It's a conflict of rights.

00:51:32.920 It's a conflict of rights. And so the only way that we can deal with these problems is by going back just a few years ago, just what, like seven, eight years ago, whatever, to, you know, live and let live, wear what you want, call yourself what you want.

00:51:52.760 Like, that's fine. And I don't mind, I don't care. Like, no one cares how someone dresses and chooses to live there, you know, express themselves.

00:52:00.640 But, but I'm sorry, we can't overreach into the area of you actually are this. And we just, but this is, this is, this is the great news.

00:52:10.320 Because, as I said before, like, the, I think the trans experiment has failed, because we are seeing all these dominoes fall, when people are suddenly realising that the negative results of what's happened. 1.00

00:52:25.960 People are suddenly realising that the negative results of what's happened, because it started, as I say, 2017, 18, started building up online, then we go into lockdown, everyone's in their homes or online for a few years.

00:52:42.280 Because the real world implications of this new trans worldview aren't manifested. We come out of lockdown, we try to apply those, that, that new way of thinking in the real world, and it's an absolute catastrophe in so many areas. 1.00

00:53:01.500 And so you see people starting to backtrack. And, and like, so in the last few months, we've seen like, in terms of women's sports, we've seen great, like changes in that in terms of like world athletics, like world cycling, world aquatics, pardon me, all deciding, you know, look, we want to be nice.

00:53:21.840 But at the end of the day, we do have to recognise that your bodies, you know, are different, isn't talking about male athletes. And so they've said, look, we don't want to discriminate, but we're gonna have an open category. So it's going to be female category, and an open category. So the, you know, the dominoes, dominoes have started to fall in the sports area.

00:53:42.240 You know, we've seen public backlash to the gender self ID stuff, like, in terms of the double rapist that was put in a women's prison in Scotland, you know, caused this great, you know, people didn't realise this was going on. And again, even someone like me, who's really involved in it, I still had to say, I need to check the sources here and make sure that this is actually happening. Are actually men being placed in women's prisons?

00:54:10.020 Because I thought, no, it sounds like a sort of Daily Mail made up thing. No disrespect to Daily Mail. But you know what I mean? It sounds like one of these sort of like...

00:54:18.360 I think there's quite a lot of disrespect to the men in the Daily Mail in that statement.

00:54:21.500 Okay, sorry, sorry, Daily Mail. But you know, I mean, it sounds like they're putting men in women's... But they actually are, like, around the world, and they have been doing so. And so there's been pushback on that. This rapist has been moved out of the women's prison. And that's, you know, people are calling for more of that.

00:54:39.540 That's taking a turn. That's taking a tumble. Then you've got, like, changing rooms and stuff, like Primark Institute, gender neutral changing rooms. And then, you know, surprise, surprise, people are coming on, you know, TikTok.

00:54:55.020 Sophie, and I think you're making great points, by the way.

00:54:58.720 For real.

00:54:59.000 You know, and what you're saying is, it's true. But don't you think this says something deeper about society as a whole?

00:55:08.160 Yeah.

00:55:08.480 That we, as a society, have come undone from our mooring, so to speak.

00:55:13.180 Yeah. 1.00

00:55:13.740 Where we will say things like, her penis. 1.00

00:55:18.140 Yeah. 1.00

00:55:18.440 And no one bats an eyelid.

00:55:20.120 Yeah.

00:55:20.320 I mean, to put it bluntly, that is mental.

00:55:22.100 Yeah.

00:55:23.020 The thing is, I understand why you say it's mental.

00:55:27.060 But I don't actually think it is mental.

00:55:29.420 Because I think if you do, if you, like, as I said, when I was a feminist before, if you accept that everything is a construct and everything is up for being constructed, then, because what they've done is they've said,

00:55:42.980 we're going to expand the categories of the word man and woman.

00:55:49.820 They're not saying, I think people think, oh, someone's saying that someone can become the opposite sex.

00:55:53.840 They're not saying that.

00:55:54.480 They're literally just saying that the word woman used to be, you know, like, hogged by biological women.

00:56:02.280 And now we're expanding it to what it truly should be, which is to include, you know, women, biological women, and men who want to be women or call themselves that.

00:56:12.980 I think the big problem here comes from the invention of the concept of gender itself.

00:56:17.000 Well, yeah.

00:56:18.300 Feminists don't like hearing this because they're the one that popularized this aspect of it. 1.00

00:56:22.360 But it was kind of created as a way of being able to opt out of femininity so that you could say, well, I am a woman, but I'm not going to behave in the stereotypical ways that women are expected to behave.

00:56:36.500 And I understand the need or at least a desire to do that.

00:56:41.040 But if you invent the concept of gender, everything else follows.

00:56:45.380 Gender isn't a word that applies to human beings. 0.92

00:56:47.720 I mean, animals don't have gender.

00:56:49.520 Yeah.

00:56:49.780 Right.

00:56:50.300 And neither do human beings.

00:56:52.140 But once you create the idea that there can be a difference between your sex and this other thing, this is where you end up inevitably, which is why you say it makes perfect sense.

00:57:02.900 Because it makes perfect sense.

00:57:03.740 It does make perfect sense. 1.00

00:57:04.580 Because if you have gender, then a woman can have a penis. 1.00

00:57:07.920 Yeah, absolutely. 1.00

00:57:09.120 Yeah.

00:57:09.300 And so this is why I say to people, because I do speak about this stuff and I try and help people to understand it.

00:57:15.020 And I say, like, I don't use the word gender because it means different things to different people.

00:57:21.260 But also because of what you said.

00:57:23.520 And I say to people, when you hear the word gender, just replace it with feelings because that's what they are.

00:57:30.520 Yeah.

00:57:30.620 And so what I was saying, so it used to be the case that obviously sex and gender were synonymous.

00:57:38.660 So if you had a form and it asked you for your gender in the 70s, you knew they just meant sex.

00:57:43.760 Yeah.

00:57:43.940 Like, and so you'd write male or female.

00:57:46.940 But then, as you say, like, it started to be used in different ways.

00:57:49.680 And it started to be talking about your roles and your expression and things like that.

00:57:53.680 And I think there is some utility to that.

00:57:55.800 But there's also problems with it.

00:57:57.120 And then, but now, as I say, like, if you add identity onto it and you're saying it's an inherent, like, innate thing about someone that they have an identity.

00:58:08.280 Sorry, that they have, like, a sort of a gendered soul, as people have talked about. 0.98

00:58:12.640 But then, yeah, that causes all these problems.

00:58:18.240 And so I was chatting to the boys, production boys, and I was trying to work this out.

00:58:24.560 And I was saying, well, look, if the word gender didn't exist at all, right, but you wanted a word to explain what gender is,

00:58:35.060 which is basically, ultimately, I think it's about your feelings and how you fit in with your sex.

00:58:41.780 That is it, really, because it's dependent on your sex, like, by definition, because it's in relation to your sex.

00:58:50.740 So it's like, you know, if you're transgender, the idea is that you, there's a transition from, you know, your sex. 0.51

00:59:03.220 So I said, like, if we didn't have the word gender, which is confusing so many people because people think sex, gender, same thing.

00:59:09.360 And we just use the word fit thing, as in how you fit in and feelings.

00:59:16.060 And you just said, I have a fitling and everyone has a fitling, right?

00:59:20.260 OK, so or fitling, if you want to pronounce your T's, but I'm from Essex, so I don't pronounce my T's.

00:59:26.300 But yeah, so and if you said, you know, no form is going to ask you for your fitling.

00:59:33.020 Every form is going to ask you if it's relevant for your sex and the word gender doesn't exist.

00:59:38.180 So and then you come along and you say, well, you know, I really feel that I have a blue fitling or I have a pink fluffy fitling.

00:59:45.680 It's OK, that's fine.

00:59:47.460 But it doesn't affect anything.

00:59:48.480 Whereas, you know, I think the reason it's so confusing is that people actually think that because it's the word gender, which they know and associate with something that's real in their mind, they can, they sort of, I think it confuses a lot of ordinary people that, do you see what I mean?

01:00:08.640 Yeah, I absolutely do see.

01:00:09.300 It'd be so much easier if we just got rid of the word gender.

01:00:11.560 Well, that we can agree on.

01:00:13.260 That we can agree on.

01:00:14.880 Unfortunately, it's now running rampant, as it were.

01:00:19.000 It is the monster that was created and now it's running rampant.

01:00:22.340 Yeah.

01:00:23.120 We are starting to see changes, positive changes.

01:00:26.060 I think we can all agree on.

01:00:27.860 What else do we need to do?

01:00:29.580 Because for me, one of the most worrying things as a former teacher, everyone can drink, obviously, is gender neutral toilets in schools. 1.00

01:00:36.120 And when I saw this come in, my head was in my hands because I just thought, these are people who have no understanding about what it is like to be a teenage girl going through puberty and the vulnerability that these people, that these women feel, girls feel.

01:00:53.340 Everyone except for me, but yeah.

01:00:55.120 Yeah, no, I acknowledge that most girls feel some kind of vulnerability when they are in puberty.

01:01:02.880 That's a very good impression.

01:01:03.740 I'll go with the tumble.

01:01:04.340 Well, we've got a lot in common, me and Gretz.

01:01:09.380 Yeah.

01:01:10.520 Yeah, no, I agree.

01:01:12.060 What can be done?

01:01:12.940 Yes.

01:01:13.320 Well, actually, I, while there's a lot of mental stuff going on, I'm actually incredibly encouraged right now.

01:01:23.080 I don't think, I think, I have a very strong sense that this whole thing is coming crashing down right now.

01:01:30.060 I mean.

01:01:30.780 It's because you haven't been to America.

01:01:32.640 Well, yeah, okay, fine.

01:01:33.760 I know.

01:01:34.340 I know.

01:01:34.660 So, obviously, in America, it's different.

01:01:36.500 It's very different.

01:01:37.400 I know.

01:01:38.280 And they've got this massive profit incentive that we don't have over here, which is, you know, one of the main reasons why I think that it's continuing to go along there.

01:01:46.320 But I think people are starting to push back.

01:01:48.600 And, you know, we are seeing, we've seen so many things.

01:01:50.920 This is like, I was talking about these dominoes falling or if you want to think about it in terms of a Jenga block, you know, like all these things are being pulled out.

01:01:58.660 Like you've got, you know, like the Tavistock being closed down and like the massive public shaming of what happened at the Tavistock and everyone's realizing it's such a scandal.

01:02:09.060 And then you've got over 1,000 families suing the Tavistock.

01:02:12.960 I don't even think, I think it only saw about 10,000 people in the last five, six years or something.

01:02:20.720 And like over 1,000 families are suing it.

01:02:24.380 And this is Britain.

01:02:25.420 It's like we're not like in America where they just sue anyone at the drop of a hat.

01:02:28.980 You know, we're not a litigious society.

01:02:31.580 But 1,000 families suing the Tavistock.

01:02:34.700 Very public, lost coverage, you know, stories of like, you know, you actually see in mainstream newspapers like The Times and Telegraph, Richie Heron, the detransitioner had his story out, Kira Bell, like these things.

01:02:49.180 So that's one gender block. 0.99

01:02:50.960 We've had the self-ID gender block taken away, but people being like, it's mental.

01:02:55.760 And people, normal people being mobilized, as it were, to kind of get together and say, actually, we're not having this, actually.

01:03:06.340 And yeah, as I say, then you've got the sports thing, you've got the changing rooms.

01:03:10.140 What I was going to say before about Primark is that they, so many people came on TikTok being like. 0.90

01:03:14.720 So I was just in Primark in Cambridge and I feel really stupid being emotional about this.

01:03:23.980 But yeah, I was trying on some clothes and it was a unisex changing room, which I'm really full.

01:03:31.900 And I love that because, you know, it makes everyone feel included.

01:03:34.480 But twice, two men walked, opened the curtain, walked in on me.

01:03:43.840 Luckily, both times I had, I was wearing fully clothed, but I could easily not have been.

01:03:50.320 And I, yeah, it was two different people, clearly from the same group.

01:03:55.940 And there was nearly, like, probably like a hundred changing rooms available.

01:04:01.060 And so it's not like, you know, it was like, oh, is someone in here or not?

01:04:04.120 It was, you know, clearly.

01:04:06.680 And both times, like, I was so shocked and I was like, oh, sorry.

01:04:09.360 Like, as if it was my fault.

01:04:12.140 But yeah, I have to say, though, Primark have been amazing.

01:04:17.280 They were really, really good about it.

01:04:19.680 But yeah, they have walked me back to my car and everything because I was scared.

01:04:26.240 Apparently, it's not the first time it's happened.

01:04:28.540 And security are watching back the tapes and seeing if they can find who it is.

01:04:32.640 But yeah, I just want to say to people, please be careful.

01:04:36.960 And if you go in the changing room, try not go on your own.

01:04:40.500 I will never be doing that again.

01:04:42.000 I would rather take it home, try it on and then take it back and get refunded.

01:04:46.220 So yeah, stay safe.

01:04:47.440 So many people came on TikTok being like crying and saying, oh, someone was filming me in the changing rooms that they did a U-turn and they reinstated, you know, single sex spaces for changing.

01:05:00.520 All these things are falling into place.

01:05:03.640 And I think we are going to come out of this in almost like a dreamlike state in a few years being like, I can't believe that we let a very, very small minority of incredibly political voices just, yeah, as you say, run rampant.

01:05:19.600 And we thought, well, you know, they're progressive and we want to be progressive and good people and they seem to know what they're doing and they've got degrees in like gender theory and queer theory and stuff.

01:05:29.740 And, you know, I want to, you know, you know, I'm a liberal person and, you know, I love gay people and, you know, and I don't care if someone wants to wear a dress.

01:05:37.780 So, you know, people think they outsource their thinking of this and they assume the experts, especially someone like the NHS, they assume that they will be, you know, competent enough.

01:05:48.540 And then you realise, like you did a brilliant like Twitter thread in the video about like why we've lost trust in institutions.

01:05:56.020 Turns out all these institutions just didn't have, you know, the backbone or the principles to stand on.

01:06:03.900 This is why I said before about truth.

01:06:05.900 Well, it comes back to the other thing you said, actually, which is about children, because you talked about how it's all about kindness.

01:06:12.440 But what you didn't mention is as part of the demonisation of men, it's not actually about men.

01:06:20.740 It's about what masculinity is.

01:06:23.280 And part of that is strength and authority, which we fear more than anything in modern society.

01:06:29.160 And to exercise strength and authority is seen as, I mean, quoting Jordan Peterson here, but it's seen as automatically being conflated with tyranny.

01:06:37.620 Right. And so to say to somebody, well, we understand that you have these feelings, but we are a medical profession.

01:06:46.240 We don't just cut bits off children.

01:06:48.100 That's not what we do is a sign of tyranny.

01:06:51.580 It's a denial of your identity.

01:06:53.800 It's a denial of medical treatment that you need out of the kindness that we're supposed to act with.

01:06:59.280 And so I think part of what you're talking about societally, where this comes from, is an unwillingness of people to essentially be adults.

01:07:06.880 Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:07:09.220 I was thinking about this yesterday.

01:07:13.720 I think that something's happened in the millennium generation or slightly before that, maybe, where we all kind of communally took a puberty blocker.

01:07:25.560 And we literally, like, I think a couple of decades, we just decided, I mean, like, the trans identifying thing is a way of opting out of reality at the end of the day. 0.99

01:07:38.460 It's, it's your, there's something about yourself that you don't like, and you're trying to disassociate yourself from it.

01:07:46.600 And I think that's what we've done.

01:07:47.980 I think we've, I think we saw reality, like, life is difficult.

01:07:54.440 I have to take responsibility.

01:07:57.160 But we were given this kind of opt out of adulthood.

01:08:00.820 And, and that's where you get a lot of adolescent, adolescentish men who are kind of your age.

01:08:07.620 And you're, you're not in this, this camp at all.

01:08:10.360 But it's like, instead of like, instead of the puberty blockers, we've got like, porn and just weed and gaming and just casual sex and like.

01:08:23.540 All the things we enjoy.

01:08:24.660 Yeah, indeed.

01:08:25.480 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:08:30.400 Or not at all.

01:08:32.560 Yeah, so, but you know, I mean, it's like, we've.

01:08:35.720 There's a way you can be that doesn't require you to grow up and take responsibility.

01:08:40.140 And one of the things about being a man is eventually getting to a point where you have to be the authority.

01:08:45.820 And it's very uncomfortable, particularly if you haven't been properly socialized to be in that position.

01:08:50.160 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:08:50.680 I mean, I, you know, the story, because I've told you, but I was dreading hiring, not you specifically, although you specifically as well, but just hiring anyone.

01:08:57.600 Because I was like, we're going to have to manage this now.

01:09:00.360 We don't really know how.

01:09:01.740 So I know what I mean.

01:09:02.440 So we're running out of time.

01:09:03.760 So before we go to locals, and we'll do a good chunk on there for people, because your, your story actually raised a lot of interest.

01:09:10.900 Tell us very quickly, before we ask the last question, but very quickly about how you got peace with who you are.

01:09:20.140 Yeah, yeah, that's, that's a good point.

01:09:23.500 I'm just very, very grateful for people in my life who...

01:09:26.980 You're welcome.

01:09:28.540 Not you!

01:09:31.020 Largely Christians, actually, who had what I talked about, that balance of grace and truth.

01:09:40.560 You know, as a society, we can go too far towards, you know, truth at the expense of, of being gracious.

01:09:48.920 And, and we have done that in the past, and Christian societies have done that in the past.

01:09:53.280 You know, if you look at sort of Dickensian Britain, and you know, it's just like, you know, if the poor would rather die, then they better do it and decrease the surplus population.

01:10:01.300 You know, if anyone thinks I'm smart for knowing Dickens, that's straight from Muppets Christmas Carol.

01:10:08.940 But you know what I mean?

01:10:09.700 It's like, so we have done that.

01:10:10.840 And so I'm not saying Christianity is perfect, but that's why I'm saying, like, if you do it right, like, and so Christians are speaking to my life being like, doing what, what the gender clinics were doing back in the day, which is exploratory therapy, and being like, okay, so there's a reality of who you are. 0.51

01:10:25.940 And so it, so it really helped me to be like, so I knew with the help of other people, and with the help of the scripture as well, because I, that, you know, it was, it's evident to me, there's just no concept of gender identity in the Bible.

01:10:40.820 It's like, you know, you get amazing characters like King David, and he was like this amazing king.

01:10:47.300 And he was also like, he was a warrior, but he was also a poet and a musician and a harp player.

01:10:54.760 And there's nothing in the Bible about like, well, he was being really manly when he was being a warrior, and he was, but he was exploring his feminine side.

01:11:01.420 It was just like, no, he's just a man.

01:11:03.260 And so like, you know, there was that, but the kind of holding on to grace and truth really, really helped me to come to peace in that,

01:11:15.600 because I realised that I was a woman with a mind that was disconnected from reality at times.

01:11:27.800 So a woman. 0.82

01:11:29.100 Yay! 0.99

01:11:35.120 What an ending.

01:11:37.600 Classic Francis.

01:11:38.920 But no, I'm just going to say, my mind needed to be brought into alignment with the reality of my body.

01:11:45.300 As opposed to the other way around.

01:11:46.180 As opposed to a body that needs to be brought into alignment of the reality of your mind.

01:11:51.340 And the Bible is very sceptical of our feelings as being the true north.

01:11:55.700 So in our society, we're like, your feelings and your sense of identity is like the main thing.

01:12:01.080 Whereas the Bible always says the exact opposite.

01:12:03.240 It says that the heart is wicked and deceitful above all things, and it can, you know, who can understand it?

01:12:08.600 And that is why it must be cancelled.

01:12:11.880 Now, Soph, it's great to have you on the show.

01:12:15.460 Please keep up the amazing work you're doing, obviously.

01:12:17.720 But as any guest on the show, you have one final question before we go to locals, which is, of course,

01:12:24.080 what is the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be?

01:12:26.660 I think the whole trans thing is a microcosm of a much broader problem. 0.98

01:12:41.800 So, you know, I was saying about just a failure to bring the truth and reality into alignment

01:12:51.300 with the way you want things to be, or the way you think things should be.

01:12:55.020 So the whole problem of the trans identifying, you know, movement is I want my life to be like this. 0.99

01:13:05.020 I really, or it should be like this.

01:13:09.220 Like, as I say, when I was a feminist, it's like, it should be like this. 1.00

01:13:13.200 But reality always bites back.

01:13:16.760 And so you're always going to be at odds, like with reality, and you're never going to find peace while you're trying to live outside it.

01:13:26.100 I mean, we've got a whole world and social media telling you, you can, you can, you can, you can.

01:13:30.380 Well, you can't.

01:13:32.480 And, you know, the many detransition is a testament to that and the people who've been betrayed by that.

01:13:38.380 But I think it's a microcosm of a broader human problem.

01:13:44.380 So, like, I think, again, like what I was saying about us taking puberty blockers, like, over the last best part of a century,

01:13:52.340 and Peter Hitchens writes about this brilliantly in The Rage Against God, brilliant book.

01:14:00.040 He talks about how, how have we gone from being this kind of country with this massive Christian heritage,

01:14:09.060 and then suddenly, like, all of the institutions and all of things in society, and that's all just fallen away.

01:14:17.400 And he sort of charts brilliantly, like, certain events that happened during the last century that really kind of,

01:14:24.640 it's kind of like, you know, what you were saying in your thread about how people lost trust in it, in institutions.

01:14:32.500 The same thing happened with Christianity over the course of, you know, a few decades, you know, 0.77

01:14:37.580 with the wars and the Suez crisis and the female affair and all these different things.

01:14:41.200 So, the point is, I think we said around the 60s, given some of these crises,

01:14:49.460 I think the world should be like this, and I don't like the reality of the way the world is,

01:14:56.120 and I'm going to live in accordance with that.

01:15:00.000 And then you see the sexual revolution, obviously, which we've covered with brilliant people like Louise Perry

01:15:05.240 and Mary Harrington, just doing such a brilliant job.

01:15:08.000 And Mary Eberstadt, too.

01:15:09.160 Yeah, Mary Eberstadt, yeah, top-level chrizzo.

01:15:13.760 Yeah, loads of people have been writing about this now, which is, again,

01:15:20.020 they tried the trans experiment, it was so extreme, it's failing, it's crumbling. 0.83

01:15:24.540 I think what we're seeing now is what's happening in the wake of that last best part of a century of just,

01:15:31.880 let's do things our way, let's completely reject God and the way he says that things,

01:15:40.020 that life should be ordered in accordance with thriving.

01:15:43.240 Let's say that, you know, let's throw out marriage, let's throw out people taking responsibility for children, 1.00

01:15:49.180 let's take, let's throw out, you know, sex is just, you know, it's just a pleasure activity at the end of the day

01:15:55.900 and we should be able to have that and placing that as the highest good in society,

01:16:00.780 the highest value is like freedom and sexual, you know, fulfilment.

01:16:05.400 And then the repercussions of that, you know, downstream are massive in terms of like, you know,

01:16:13.800 people, women's unhappiness in terms of the dating market, trying to have sex like men,

01:16:18.820 as it were, in terms of no strings attached and, you know, trying to be this empowered sexual being

01:16:24.380 and they don't, inside a lot of them, don't want that.

01:16:28.620 They want to be with a man who's committed to them and have a relationship and have children

01:16:34.660 and build a family and build a home and a community.

01:16:36.960 That's what most women want. 1.00

01:16:38.160 And I think probably a lot of men want as well.

01:16:41.100 And then you've got, you know, the other downstream consequences, which are really sad,

01:16:44.540 like abortion and just like, if you say the highest value in society is that I should 0.84

01:16:50.580 be able to have sex, whomever I want, and, you know, that's the most, that's the highest 0.54

01:16:55.520 priority, that's the highest value, then, you know, it's almost like obligatory then that

01:17:02.220 a child's life should be sacrificed because of that, because it's like, well, that's my right,

01:17:07.480 that's the most important thing, comes before responsibility and anything else.

01:17:09.940 So we're seeing all these, you know, repercussions come out of it.

01:17:14.400 And I'm sure that many people will disagree with me and that's fine.

01:17:18.000 I don't mind talking and debating with anyone.

01:17:20.220 But what I'm saying is we tried an experiment of rejecting God, I think, and rejecting,

01:17:27.080 you know, the inheritance of Christianity that had been brought down over hundreds and hundreds

01:17:31.700 of years.

01:17:32.420 And I think that's failing in many ways.

01:17:34.180 But again, in the same way I'm encouraged about the trans thing failing. 1.00

01:17:38.760 I think I've seen a lot of people interested in Christianity again.

01:17:44.340 And I think that we've seen a lot of people talking about it more freely and more openly.

01:17:49.160 And I think a lot of people interested in pursuing it in a way that they weren't before.

01:17:55.020 And I've seen a lot of people coming to Christ who have a completely no background in it whatsoever.

01:18:00.960 And I think, if you'll permit me to have one more minute, the, so I talked about the trans thing

01:18:12.900 as a microcosm of like what's happened over the last century.

01:18:16.100 I think that is a microcosm of the human experience, the human problem, which is, you know, if you

01:18:23.260 want to look at history, if you want to look at the Old Testament, if you don't know what the

01:18:27.700 Old Testament is in the Bible, pretty much the story of the Old Testament is, God gives

01:18:35.140 people like, says, this is what, you know, this is what's good and right.

01:18:38.980 And everyone's like, yeah, let's do it.

01:18:40.320 And then after a while, they're like, actually, we're not going to do that.

01:18:43.800 They start doing their own thing.

01:18:46.180 Everything goes wrong.

01:18:47.520 They repent and turn back to God.

01:18:49.180 And the cycle goes on and on and on.

01:18:50.600 That's like the human problem.

01:18:52.460 And I think that we're seeing that come around again.

01:18:55.860 There you go.

01:18:56.240 Sodom and Gomorrah is coming, but it's going to be fine after that.

01:18:58.740 Yeah, exactly.

01:18:59.880 If you give your life to Christ.

01:19:02.060 That's terrifying.

01:19:03.880 Anyway, Sophie Spittel, thank you so much.

01:19:06.180 Do you want people to follow you online?

01:19:07.780 Yeah, yeah.

01:19:08.460 Where should they do that?

01:19:10.780 Just Twitter, probably.

01:19:13.100 You need to tell them.

01:19:14.380 Yeah.

01:19:15.000 Sophie Spittel, S-P-I-T-A-L, like hospital without the ho. 1.00

01:19:20.600 Okay.

01:19:21.420 Okay.

01:19:21.920 Great.

01:19:22.660 Follow us on Locals where we will continue the conversation.

01:19:25.920 Also, I've got a sub stack in it.

01:19:28.280 Perfect.

01:19:32.320 Lemming Jr. asks,

01:19:34.240 is there anything which can persuade autistic people that transitioning isn't the answer?

TRIGGERnometry - July 16, 2023

Triggernometry Employee Speaks Out - Sophie Spital

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