TRIGGERnometry - Triggernometry Meets Guilty Feminist

00:00:00.000 you wouldn't say elon musk or donald trump were far right definitely not but he hasn't been saying

00:00:05.520 anything positive about gay people lately has he um has he said anything negative about gay people 0.92

00:00:10.460 we killed them yes we committed a genocide why were we able to do that 0.95

00:00:14.720 my visceral reaction yeah to a white man sitting and saying to me and why were we able to commit

00:00:23.200 genocide on them and then just pausing yes is very visceral to me it's interesting that you

00:00:28.800 brought up my skin color because it's i thought that was the exact opposite of what the point

00:00:33.040 you're trying to make in the book you're very productive i thought you're a lot more intellectual

00:00:36.120 than this i think this is very revealing so you're not reaching anyone who's listening to this

00:00:42.320 conversation by doing that well my point so you don't know that if you listen to what i was saying

00:00:47.400 it's actually perfectly logical and reasonable controlling what you're doing now well what you

00:00:52.700 said was quite significant offensive it was quite it wasn't it's not that it was offensive it was it

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00:01:13.300 would say land is a safe investment technology companies solar energy robotic pollinators might be

00:01:19.760 a thing a wrestler to face a robot that will have no have to happen so whatever you think is going to

00:01:26.120 happen in the future you can invest in it at wealth simple start now at wealth simple.com

00:01:31.560 deborah francis white of the guilty feminist podcast welcome to trigonometry thank you so much

00:01:36.300 for having me well uh this is a surprise surprising meeting of the minds because um i think it's fair to

00:01:42.600 say that your podcast is one of the kind of arch pillars of progressive thought in certainly in

00:01:48.940 our space um and you reached out to us saying you have a book out you want to come and talk to us

00:01:53.480 it's fair to say that we're not one of the pillars of the woke space in in our space uh so what are you

00:01:59.580 doing here well what a great question um uh my good friend johann harry told me i should come on your

00:02:05.380 show and i think um had it been with my book the guilty feminist i would have said probably not this

00:02:11.960 isn't the right space for it but my new book is called six conversations we're scared to have

00:02:17.360 and it's it's about how i feel about the landscape now i feel like the the political landscape now i

00:02:26.780 feel like progressive movements and people who are broadly on the left are fragmenting by

00:02:32.540 constantly having i i would say being being obsessed with trivial pursuits small level

00:02:40.680 slights this use of language that use of language meanwhile there's this huge polarizing gap that is

00:02:47.980 increasing every day and we've seen this you know in the last couple months in america and an

00:02:52.780 extraordinary chasm has opened up between the left and the right i feel like the far right which is

00:02:59.280 quite sinister is is really making gains and so my book is about how to have conversations better

00:03:08.600 both with people on your side of the divide but also reaching across the divide so i can't really

00:03:14.740 then say oh you think differently from me i don't want to come and talk to you i that's exactly what i

00:03:19.600 need to be doing and i listened to your podcast and i also felt like you guys were like reasonable who

00:03:25.340 and i could have a good chat to you what i'm not interested in doing is uh is you know when you go on

00:03:30.740 the bbc and they say oh you've got to talk to this person for balance and there's somebody that is

00:03:34.240 actually quite um like for me someone who goes i don't believe in climate change at all i uh i think 0.96

00:03:44.740 feminists are bitches and witches i'm like well it's it just would take too long in a 20 minute 1.00

00:03:50.640 interview to get there so what are we doing and then i think we're just doing gladiatorial arena 1.00

00:03:55.060 sports so but i want to talk to people who i think are intelligent who think differently from me

00:04:00.240 because otherwise what are we doing just sitting there congratulating ourselves in our little group

00:04:05.860 um and ultimately the reason i wrote this book is because when i was 14 my family joined the jehovah's

00:04:12.080 witnesses and the jehovah's witnesses are a cult um i say that because it's true yeah it is true a 0.98

00:04:20.440 useful definition of a cult is any group that won't let you leave with your dignity intact

00:04:25.280 and it's a shaming and shunning group so if the elders come around and tell you and the elders are

00:04:31.700 just some men who nominate each other in the congregation um that they have regular jobs they're

00:04:37.240 not particularly trained or anything and if they come around and tell you your skirt's too short or

00:04:42.560 you've got an attitude problem um and you don't listen you can be formally shunned it means people

00:04:50.720 cross the road to avoid you pretend they can't see you um it's a name shame shun religion it's 0.67

00:04:56.900 it's very patriarchal it's run entirely by men and i lived in that i had to get out of it and i lost all

00:05:03.600 my friends i couldn't speak to anybody i knew and loved for many years and i had to start over again

00:05:09.000 um and then i wasn't in a cult for a long time

00:05:12.660 and then in the last 10 years i have been feeling like i am in a cult again um because i think the

00:05:21.480 world is now a series of interconnecting cults where we're all in our little group and in order

00:05:27.320 to be part of this group we have to say these things repeat these things if we have questions

00:05:34.140 about these things or we think i don't think that part of it's right can i have a reasonable discussion

00:05:38.620 about that we're often going to be shouted down and i see that on both sides of the political divide i

00:05:43.680 see that on the left and i see that on the right well if you think that you're with them then and so

00:05:48.780 that's why i wrote this book that's a very good point and i think uh right now uh that is clearly

00:05:54.800 happening on the right as well like i experience this on a daily basis there's there's a whole bunch

00:06:00.040 of narratives that people on the right in america have about ukraine and anytime i'm like well

00:06:04.540 factually actually oh you're with them then i see that a lot and i think that's human behavior

00:06:09.840 what i found interesting is and this is what i'd be keen to explore as part of this conversation if

00:06:14.840 you don't mind is you said in the blurb for your book that you're not anti-woke um i don't think i

00:06:20.980 would have did i say anti-woke i don't think i would have used the word woke but maybe i did

00:06:24.340 um it says in the blurb of the book but we um i guess i guess definitely not anti-woke no yes but i i

00:06:30.660 what i was going to ask you is why is that why aren't you anti-woke um well i think what does

00:06:36.600 woke mean to you i that's my question what are all the very things that you you said are the reason

00:06:41.860 you wrote your book the reason that people would say we're anti-woke i'm certainly anti-woke i have

00:06:46.800 no issue describing it is i'm anti the oh you use this wrong phrase oh you made fun of this thing

00:06:52.200 that i don't like oh you're not sufficiently inclusive of this blah blah blah oh you know you're

00:06:57.240 a man you need to be quiet while other people talk all of this stuff i i reject this entirely i

00:07:01.540 reject the identity politics of it i reject the censorship aspect of it i reject the um the

00:07:08.360 obsession with with victimhood which i think is damaging and it's making people into victims

00:07:13.020 that's what i mean by woke and that's what i'm against uh so i so i i think the reason i would

00:07:20.060 describe myself as not anti-woke is because i think what a lot of people mean by woke and it's all

00:07:25.740 it's a soup it's a rich soup so you can take out certain things and go that's woke but i think a

00:07:32.540 lot of people see it and go well woke is you know an idea about gender or an idea about feminism

00:07:39.160 that i haven't fully explored it just sounds new or it just sounds you know like something that i

00:07:48.600 don't have any particular uh knowledge of or empathy for so that goes to the woke basket because it's new

00:07:55.560 so to name something that uh to pull something out of a hat off the top of my head um there's a lot

00:08:04.820 of uh diverse casting now so i see people getting very angry when they see um a cast on television

00:08:14.020 and they might there might be you know a couple of brown and black people in the cast and they say

00:08:19.740 well they don't need to be there or this is not historically accurate and i get very very angry about

00:08:25.140 that and i i feel very strongly that we want our television to represent the people in our

00:08:36.600 community i live in london and i have very close friends chosen family who are black and brown some

00:08:44.620 of whom are actors and i want to see them on tv they're brilliant and i really notice that when it

00:08:51.600 first happened i might have noticed it and then you get into a show and you you don't notice so

00:08:57.720 even if something's set in victorian times and you think well they might not have been black or brown

00:09:02.080 you just stop noticing and you just see that it's a great performance and then the other thing is if

00:09:07.240 when you look a bit deeper you find out of course there were black and brown people in victorian

00:09:11.600 london at that time and sometimes people say that person wouldn't have been black or brown and

00:09:14.740 historically when you look into it they actually were so that's an example of something that i think

00:09:20.060 people just go woke and i think no that that needs more analysis surely fine but i i i there's a lot

00:09:29.420 to quibble with that which we can but i guess to most people i don't think your characterization is

00:09:33.980 quite accurate i don't think most people's view of what woke is is this thing that they don't

00:09:38.200 understand but because it's new they don't like it it's more like suddenly we all have to pretend that

00:09:43.180 if you say something that about your identity now it's true like if i say i'm a woman i become a

00:09:50.240 woman in that moment and a lot of people don't dislike that because it's new a lot of people 0.95

00:09:54.300 don't dislike that because they think it's factually inaccurate sure well that's a very very big subject

00:09:59.340 there's a very very big um chunky chapter on that in my book and i think that's something that

00:10:04.380 what's your argument on that so what you just said there is uh is if someone says they're a woman 0.95

00:10:13.500 you have to accept it is that what is that yeah but that's been the line trans women are women 0.98

00:10:18.660 right and if you say otherwise you're a bigot okay so what i'm arguing in my book um is i am looking at

00:10:27.760 the the the historical fight for two other sorts of rights that has happened and i say in the

00:10:35.940 introduction actually um this is a book of ideas and i know a lot of people will go to this chapter

00:10:41.440 first it's called the conversation about gender non-conformity and i say ideally read it in order

00:10:47.660 because i'm building an argument but if you do go here first and if you are triggered to use the

00:10:55.560 the name of your podcast by this if this is something that you feel very very strongly about

00:11:00.280 um whatever side of this wherever in this kaleidoscope of this discussion you're coming from

00:11:07.240 please be aware this is some ideas in a book of ideas this is not the first first to last word

00:11:14.340 this is not a new doctrine that i'm delivering for a new cult this is some ideas in a book of ideas

00:11:22.440 so this is a complex discussion so anybody coming in and going you're not a woman that's the end of

00:11:33.340 it i don't need to hear anything more about that or anybody coming in and going you're not allowed to

00:11:39.020 ask any questions about sport that's just the end of it both of those i would i would question and i

00:11:45.280 would say this is a big complicated topic and in my book this is a book of idea this is a book of ideas

00:11:51.960 and this is some ideas about gender what are your ideas about it so i want to bed that down there okay

00:11:58.040 okay um what i'm doing is first of all looking at how the brain works and why our brain is sort of a

00:12:08.000 prediction machine it's it's the autocomplete on your phone really it's always going through the world

00:12:14.220 and it's looking for things that aren't as the brain would expect them to be

00:12:21.260 so if you got on a bus and the bus driver was dressed like a clown you would double take now

00:12:29.020 there's no reason to suspect that clown is going to hurt you or that there's anything there's nothing

00:12:33.480 pejorative about the bus driver being dressed like a clown but you would notice if you got on the bus

00:12:38.280 driver was dressed as a bus driver you probably wouldn't notice the bus driver at all if you you

00:12:43.980 know if you're in london where you get on off buses and you don't say anything to the bus driver so

00:12:46.900 many people and someone said later who was the bus driver what they look like you probably wouldn't

00:12:52.740 know but as soon as they're just like a clown your brain goes what i've got questions now the reason

00:12:58.020 your brain can't do that every time like a bus you know like toddlers go a bus a bus driver that's

00:13:04.020 because they're still learning what's normal what's what's to be expected so we can't do that our

00:13:10.160 brain's got stuff going on all the time and it needs to save itself for all this other work so if it's

00:13:15.700 what's expected it doesn't remark um so if 30 percent of bus drivers dress like clowns for a year

00:13:26.020 you would stop noticing i don't think i would know you you i would continue to notice that they're

00:13:33.220 for how long for all eternity because i know what a bus driver is supposed to look like ah

00:13:38.360 interesting that's so your brain works different from other human beings then in that case uh because

00:13:42.420 if if we accept your premise of how people's brains work yes okay my my assertion to you is that a lot

00:13:48.440 of people have a standard that they expect that they learn at a certain point and they don't stop

00:13:54.020 noticing things being different to that like if everybody started walking around naked i wouldn't

00:13:58.680 start i wouldn't at one point go actually i don't remember a time when nobody you see what i mean

00:14:03.100 uh i do but um i think there's a whole different bunch of semiotics that go with nudity that don't

00:14:09.260 go with clown costumes fine uh whatever let's carry on with you please okay here's an example

00:14:13.720 in 19 in the 1960s mary tyler moore had to fight really hard to be allowed to wear trousers on screen

00:14:22.360 because people double distilled double taking at women wearing trousers when women first started

00:14:28.100 wearing trousers women were arrested in trousers now and i'll tell you and it's because 1.00

00:14:33.380 that's a gender signifier and it repulsed people made it looked weird same as long hair um 1.00

00:14:41.040 uh think about a victorian man have you got a picture of victorian man oscar wilde in your mind

00:14:46.500 how long is his hair pretty long pretty long right um why is short hair masculine

00:14:53.360 um i any ideas take us back to the trans bit because i'm not following the connection okay so

00:15:01.420 i'm taking you somewhere trust me it's all right we're getting there okay um so the reason short

00:15:07.820 hair is masculine is because in the first world war men went into the trenches had to have short hair

00:15:14.000 because the lice and then other men who hadn't been down in the trenches wanted to demonstrate they

00:15:18.640 could be as masculine they could have survived the trenches by the 1960s hair like oscar wilde's long

00:15:24.760 victorian hair was so femme that when men walked down the street with that longer hair that came in 0.88

00:15:31.260 the 60s other men would shout oh gives you hernberg love and sort of sexist uh heckles so that's how long

00:15:39.120 it takes to get uh something to be normal or for something to be seen as femme or mask that's why i say

00:15:46.720 if for all eternity you continue to notice clowns as bus drivers even if you you know you still had

00:15:54.500 comments on them you would start to edit them out because that's because nobody now looks at a man with

00:15:59.460 this sort of length hair and double takes or looks at a woman in trousers and double takes 1.00

00:16:04.220 because as a as a society we get used to something so anything that's outside the norm

00:16:11.980 um what happens is we notice it and each generation has those alarm alerts which is this could be

00:16:21.840 dangerous because it's different and we have that with gender in you can see it again and again and 1.00

00:16:28.320 again and again and we know it's arbitrary because women were wearing trousers in asia for hundreds of

00:16:34.240 years when western women that didn't look it's not it's not something absolutely normal or natural 0.98

00:16:38.340 all so uh what we have to do then is look at is there any history of transgenderism throughout the

00:16:48.080 ages and i looked into this because i looked at indigenous societies and i i thought well there

00:16:56.340 will be some you know people fear what's different so there will be indigenous societies where there weren't

00:17:04.720 transgender people accepted and i looked and i looked and i looked and i could not find any

00:17:09.120 it was completely normal in most societies for this to be not a binary thing for it not to be

00:17:16.620 male and female but for it to be more like a scale so if you walk past a building and you know a bar and

00:17:24.040 someone says is it loud in there you understand that that person is saying yes it is loud in there but

00:17:31.520 they've been loud for them because there's loud and there's soft there's high and there's low there's

00:17:36.340 young and there's old we're all old to someone and we're all young to someone right we're all old to a

00:17:40.720 seven-year-old we're all young to an 80-year-old right so we we there's very few things where we go

00:17:47.260 it's this or it's that you might have had the american two-spirit people and a native american two-spirit

00:17:53.280 you hope you guys said that yeah um that was it created like around in the the 90s at a conference

00:18:00.760 an lgbtq plus conference when indigenous people native american people were like we have to explain

00:18:06.880 it to the westerners because they keep using it was like a a sort of slur for indigenous queer people

00:18:12.460 that was often used and they said right they see it as this and that so let's say we're two so

00:18:20.480 whenever you hear that third gender in indigenous spaces it's not really that's that's that's done

00:18:26.280 through a western framework of two and therefore a third but if you talk to people in indigenous

00:18:31.900 cultures it's usually it's like it's not a third for us because it's more like a piano scale

00:18:35.880 so if that is in indigenous cultures it seems unlikely that there are no people in the west

00:18:46.160 who also fit somewhere up and down this gender scale and i think what's happened in the west is

00:18:53.000 the legal framework is you've got to say you're male or you've got to say you're female and that's

00:18:57.160 it so if i have to be in one of these boxes in order to get any rights this is the one i belong in

00:19:03.780 because that's the one that feels more like me but if you take it back to its kind of human roots

00:19:10.560 we're so obsessed with our own frameworks that we really do think there's no truth outside them

00:19:14.940 but one of the the lenses i'm looking at this through is i'm adopted i was given away at birth

00:19:21.080 in any other time before now i would have been an orphan um oliver twist had one living parent it

00:19:28.600 doesn't necessarily mean both your parents are dead it means no one in your family can or will look

00:19:31.600 after you um and i'm i orphan rights is a fantastic something i've written about in the book if you

00:19:37.720 look at orphan rights it's absolutely fascinating orphans were massive scapegoats in victorian times

00:19:44.320 if you adopt one it will infect your children with immorality uh they're not a natural child 0.94

00:19:52.160 uh they their mothers were immoral and poor and they will be too and so if you were lucky enough to 1.00

00:19:59.760 be adopted in victoria times you were jane eyre so you had to say mr and mrs reed you didn't call

00:20:04.360 them mum and dad and so if i had been adopted even some decades earlier i couldn't have said

00:20:11.160 mum and dad and i wouldn't have thought of my brother and sister as my brother and sister i would 0.52

00:20:15.020 have been constantly told i was a charity case i was a waif i was a stray i was a bastard i was an 0.70

00:20:21.140 orphan and my parents would have been my guardians and i would have been their ward legally and if my mum

00:20:26.660 and dad had gone around saying to people this is our daughter and people had found out i was adopted

00:20:31.720 they would have thought they were fantasists or liars because you can't argue with biology now at

00:20:36.120 some point society just decided that because orphans had such terrible so low self-esteem and 70 percent

00:20:42.660 of the the um criminal population in the uk in victorian times were orphans and because of stories

00:20:48.260 like jane eyre and oliver twist yeah social activism all that just decided that children like

00:20:54.420 me should be fully endorsed and so we did argue with biology and we won and that is why i have

00:21:00.920 self-esteem and have had a good education and feel completely endorsed by society and i didn't even

00:21:05.980 realize i was an orphan until i found my biological mother and found out that from that time some of

00:21:11.460 baby newborn babies of my generation went to orphanages and i cried for like 48 hours because 0.78

00:21:15.620 i was just like fuck i'm an orphan and i could have gone to an orphanage from birth and children who 0.97

00:21:21.380 are in orphanages from birth have massive issues as you can imagine because they don't have that 0.98

00:21:25.560 attachment and that made me feel really really really sad and really like oh i would be a totally

00:21:31.720 different person and then you can parallel that with gay rights if you look at the history of gay

00:21:36.660 rights in the 60s many gay men were broken you know you watch something like the boys in the band 0.92

00:21:44.500 which is a play in a you know it's been made into a movie about gay men in the 60s in new york

00:21:49.500 and how miserable they were and how much self-loathing there was and how they kind of

00:21:53.860 went went for each other because there were two options one was be in the closet be married come and 1.00

00:22:01.100 get handjobs under the bridge the other was be out and be giving the handjobs under the bridge 0.96

00:22:04.940 and that was it and so the misery those men lived with and the suicide rate and the mental health 0.99

00:22:10.880 breakdown so we've seen what's happened since we've endorsed and legalized and for gay men who now

00:22:17.820 live in our society freely and women but it's easy to see with gay men because of criminalization

00:22:22.600 and decriminalization and so i mean you know you're my gay friends now will be you know running the pta and

00:22:31.520 you know living their living their lives on the outside and being their full selves and not living

00:22:38.900 in depression and marginalization this doesn't mean there's no homophobia but it means the legalization 0.96

00:22:43.420 and the endorsing of language has functionally changed who is capable of being productive happy

00:22:50.980 whole members of society and that's great for society as well as the individuals so i'm looking

00:22:56.360 at trans rights from both of those those avenues and saying what would happen if we realized that our

00:23:06.000 model is not the only model there is absolute precedence for human beings to be uh fluid in gender 0.99

00:23:12.980 and uh for for them to be gender non-conforming just as much with orphans um indigenous societies don't

00:23:21.460 have many indigenous societies they don't have the concept of orphan because the whole community will

00:23:24.640 look after you and your aunt is also your mum type feel and so it's a western framework that delivers us

00:23:31.360 orphans yeah do you see what i mean i see what you mean but i don't agree and the reason is that i'm

00:23:36.340 not a western person by birth and francis has experiences of outside and the idea that male and

00:23:41.760 female are western categories is just not it's not true in fact i would not just western but you see 0.58

00:23:48.320 what i mean about indigenous societies yes but indigenous societies are like 0.0001 percent of the

00:23:53.500 entire population of human beings on the planet and the more east you go the more the traditional

00:23:58.620 societies are and the more the male and female rigidity is enforced actually the west is actually

00:24:04.680 pretty loose about them the other thing that i don't understand about the argument is that

00:24:08.560 i think it sounds to me like we're confusing gender non-conformity in other words a feminine man or a man

00:24:14.580 who doesn't comply with the stereotypes of what we expect of a man and a woman who doesn't comply 0.96

00:24:19.120 and wears trousers or whatever with claiming that you are the opposite sex these are completely separate

00:24:24.700 things and the third thing is and we've obviously had a lot of people on the show to talk about this

00:24:29.080 um the gay rights model doesn't work very well as a comparison not least because

00:24:34.060 um it's actually gay people that are at the forefront of opposing trans ideology

00:24:39.840 who and say if i had been alive today as a young person people would have told me i'm trans

00:24:47.680 even though i'm gay or even though i'm autistic or even though i'm this and the fourth difference is

00:24:52.760 that um decriminalizing homosexuality was about preventing the ill treatment of gay people

00:25:00.200 when we're talking about uh transgenderism the way that we've been talking about it in our societies

00:25:05.820 until recently until we're streeting banned puberty blockers is that because we have this ideology of

00:25:11.520 compassion for people who may feel differently we then would prescribe very significant medical

00:25:16.840 treatments to young children who are not actually capable of making rational decisions about their

00:25:22.240 long-term future so for all of those reasons i don't really see the argument that you're making

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00:27:07.100 argument that i'm making you don't agree with the argument i'm making but you've made four points

00:27:10.620 there so i need to take them one by one what was the first one so the first well i don't remember

00:27:14.540 the order in which i made them uh i think the first one was that in the idea that the male female

00:27:20.780 binary is a western concept it's just not factually accurate okay so stop there yeah um i'm talking 0.92

00:27:26.860 about indigenous people who lived all over the world yeah until we had so when you when you say

00:27:33.900 the trouble the trouble with uh saying it's not western yeah is colonization did bring a lot of

00:27:40.940 more fixed ideas so i'm no hold on a second i'm sorry no i'm not gonna let that pass are you saying

00:27:46.300 people in in the duchy of muscovy 2000 years ago no no no but i only just started the sentence so i said

00:27:52.940 for example colonization did export a lot of very christian quote-unquote christian not not necessarily

00:27:58.940 christian ideals around the world so my example was i think it's hard to talk about the whole globe

00:28:04.540 but um my example was in australia um you may know australian aboriginals have the idea of brother

00:28:10.540 boys uh brother brother boys and sister girls and they are genderqueer people but of course when you

00:28:17.820 know let's be honest white christian colonizers came and turned up they said that's not a thing and

00:28:22.380 you're not allowed to do that and and said that that's that's wrong and there was a lot of

00:28:27.820 shaming that's gone on now that obviously has infiltrated into the aboriginal population now

00:28:32.220 there's still brother boys and there's still sister girls but there's a lot of homophobia

00:28:35.340 in the aboriginal population that didn't exist before it was imposed but you're not addressing

00:28:39.660 my argument my argument is not that there aren't indigenous communities where these practices exist

00:28:44.140 my argument is that that is by far and away a tiny minority of the global population of humans i

00:28:50.700 don't really understand how that matters though because it's still the it's still the archaic way

00:28:55.020 people people have behaved 99 of people do something and 0.1 of people do something

00:29:01.180 different do you know why indigenous populations are so small though uh isn't it the point i'm

00:29:07.580 trying to make do you know why this is hold on hold on a second you do you know why this is

00:29:10.700 small you're deflecting from the argument that i'm making the argument yes you are the argument

00:29:14.780 that i made to you is when you said this is a western concept i gave you examples yeah for

00:29:19.900 example the duchy of muscovy or russia 600 years ago so when i say western yeah i'm speaking because

00:29:27.020 that's where i'm having the arguments is in the west okay now obviously there are eastern places too

00:29:32.460 but i'm talking about you know western frameworks it's unlikely i'm going to come in here in kent

00:29:37.820 and start talking about you know if far eastern i think you're missing i think you're mishearing what i'm

00:29:43.660 saying you made the claim that outside of the west yeah in indigenous societies these things are very

00:29:49.980 normal and the point i'm making to you is while it it may be the case in certain tiny communities

00:29:55.580 that exist hold on hold on a second that exists in certain tiny communities bless you francis uh

00:30:01.180 outside of the west there are also lots of other civilizations outside of the west where the gender

00:30:06.300 binary that you are talking about as a western concept is actually much more firmly enforced than it is

00:30:11.740 in the west in the islamic civilization in the chinese civilization uh in in russia all over the

00:30:17.500 world in south pretty much everywhere so the bringing up tiny indigenous communities doesn't 1.00

00:30:23.180 does not prove the case but indigenous communities tend to be i think more it's more archaic it's more 1.00

00:30:29.900 what it what it was before we brought in all these religious framework frameworks you're still talking

00:30:34.940 about the the the muslim world you're still talking about an abrahamic framework what about the chinese

00:30:40.620 i don't know i haven't looked into the chinese enough about 1.4 billion sure but if you have

00:30:45.900 probably looked into indigenous chinese culture you know that archaic before we had a lot of um

00:30:51.100 um china now is not a great example i think you'll understand why because of a fairly extreme regime

00:30:57.820 with ex with not great human rights so i don't i think what i'm trying to look at if you literally look

00:31:02.780 at what i'm saying is that there are other frameworks that are perhaps more human that are more

00:31:07.580 what makes them more human well they're less they're less driven by control by controlling

00:31:11.820 regimes or controlling i get it but i don't i don't think that makes them more human if 99 of

00:31:16.620 humans do a it seems to me that a is more human you must know you're a bright man you must know you

00:31:23.260 must know you're a public intellectual you must know that 99 given the recent population boom

00:31:31.100 of of of people under draconian governments under draconian religious binary religious ideals

00:31:40.620 doesn't dwarf an indigenous culture that has been there australian aboriginals are the oldest

00:31:45.900 indigenous culture in the world do you know why there's so few of them we killed them yes we 1.00

00:31:52.140 committed a genocide why were we able to do that why were we able to do that what are you implying

00:31:59.500 i'm just asking you the question are you implying because we're better no what are you implying

00:32:03.980 we were technologically far more advanced that's what i'm implying

00:32:11.420 what's not clear about that so you're saying i'm saying we were technologically more advanced

00:32:17.820 so you're saying we're superior to australian aboriginals that's quite the opposite of what i'm saying

00:32:22.140 i'm not saying we were superior i'm saying we were technologically more advanced so how how is that

00:32:26.140 the opposite superior implies a moral quality i'm not making any moral implication what you seem to be

00:32:31.980 but okay what i'm saying is i think most people would hear it that way no again you're a very

00:32:36.380 intelligent man how would most people hear that most people would hear what i'm saying for what i'm

00:32:40.300 saying which is somebody who comes my mother's south america and i have indigenous heritage i don't see it

00:32:47.260 that way a lot of my my grandmother's ancestors were wiped out by the conquistadors whether it's by

00:32:54.220 they came in executed them or it was disease brought in by conquistadors yeah so i don't

00:33:00.220 interpret it that way so so why what's the point of this question the point of this question is is

00:33:05.500 because we came in with our better gendered binaries and therefore we were able to work a lot better if 0.51

00:33:11.500 you just hear the point i'm making instead of getting i really cannot understand what it could

00:33:15.020 possibly be other than we are better uh well let me explain it to you what it could possibly be and

00:33:19.980 what's it got to do with the gender binary uh your argument i'm we're just talking about the argument

00:33:24.780 and you seem to get quite heated about this which is completely unnecessary um do you think it's

00:33:30.700 necessary uh i i i am i'm a bit stunned by what you're implying no you you're acting in a kind of

00:33:37.420 passive aggressive way which indicates that you're not i genuinely be and being a hundred percent

00:33:42.860 authentic my visceral reaction yeah to a white man sitting and saying to me and why were we able to

00:33:49.500 commit genocide on them and then just pausing yes is very visceral to me well let's go back first of

00:33:55.740 all it's interesting you brought up my skin color because it's i thought that was the exact opposite of what

00:34:00.460 the point you're trying to make in the book but anyway let's come back to the argument you haven't

00:34:03.420 read my book so you wouldn't know what the point is you said that the point of your book is it's all

00:34:07.820 about you can't say this as of this person and whatever but anyway it doesn't matter you're very

00:34:11.500 productive i thought you're a lot more intellectual than this i think this is very revealing but let's

00:34:17.100 come back to the argument the argument you were making was that the aboriginal society and other

00:34:23.180 indigenous societies as you call them were more human because whatever reason and they were

00:34:31.580 therefore models for emulation i don't think i said more human i said there is something fundamentally

00:34:35.900 human yeah about there's something fundamentally of of how humans are before there's a whole heap of

00:34:45.500 religious imposition and a whole heap of totalitarian imposition that's what i'm saying i think we can learn a 0.99

00:34:51.020 lot from indigenous societies i don't think you can say there's fewer of them therefore they don't

00:34:56.220 count when they said when they would i didn't say they don't count what i said is if 99 of a population

00:35:03.820 if if 99 of pandas eat bamboo shoots it's fair to say that eating bamboo shoots is the standard panda

00:35:11.100 behavior it's the more panda behavior than the one percent or the 0.1 percent they eat dog turds for a living 0.96

00:35:18.700 okay so what what about if pandas had been in an artificial environment for a long time and couldn't

00:35:23.260 get bamboo shoots and we're eating something else but i could show you that pandas originally and some

00:35:29.180 pandas for thousands of years old the oldest pandas in the world live in australia and those pandas still

00:35:35.500 eat bamboo shoots and always have done that would be something interesting for you as an intellectual

00:35:39.980 wouldn't it uh so the fact that pandas at 1.8 but something other than bamboo shoots i mean your idea

00:35:47.980 that everything since the aboriginals is an artificial environment well those societies were artificial in 0.99

00:35:53.900 their own way too yeah i'm not saying anything as as rigid as what you're imposing onto me i am i'm

00:35:59.660 talking through things and around things right at the top remember when i said yeah this is some ideas

00:36:04.460 and a book of ideas in a way though what you're doing is you're going ah you've said this thing

00:36:10.540 and this thing isn't isn't everything and so i would love it if we could genuinely talk i'm trying

00:36:16.780 and you could i'm trying to address your argument right i gave you four arguments in response to the

00:36:22.700 things that you said and i we've only really got to one well yes because you got upset at me saying

00:36:28.540 something about the aboriginals but what were you meaning what i was what were you meaning by why

00:36:33.100 were we able to i already told you what i meant by that genocide we were technologically far more

00:36:38.540 and what's that got to do with it well if a civilization is able to produce things like penicillin

00:36:44.140 and the i the ability for its children not to die in childbirth i think that indicates that

00:36:49.500 that civilization has something positive about it the fact that the western civilization has created the

00:36:55.340 incredible material benefits and also other benefits of every kind that we now enjoy says

00:37:00.700 something about the utility of that civilization and that world view which is that it is very good

00:37:06.300 for human beings which is one of the reasons that millions of people travel many of them risking their

00:37:11.100 lives from other parts of the world to our societies today okay so so all okay so aboriginals didn't need 1.00

00:37:18.300 penicillin because they didn't have any of the diseases and they were living an incredibly brilliant

00:37:23.260 nomadic life so that they would what they would do is it would use a certain area then they would move

00:37:27.980 on and then they would come back so they didn't have any problems with holes and ozone layers any

00:37:31.580 problems with climate change the incredible raging bushfires across america across australia right now they

00:37:36.940 didn't have that so we brought in as more problems than we did solutions right uh well i don't know i

00:37:45.740 don't know that that's true it depends which indigenous community is talking about if you look at

00:37:50.140 native americans for example they were doing they were just as brutal as westerners in many ways they 0.98

00:37:55.340 had slavery they they murdered each other on a regular basis they went to war all of these things

00:37:59.980 existed and they had of course their own diseases it's a completely different discussion no it's not

00:38:04.700 a completely different discussion we brought the diseases that required the penicillin well i didn't

00:38:09.900 certainly not invented when we committed genocide on australian aboriginals 0.78

00:38:14.220 i don't understand your point my point is we are we were technologically far more sophisticated so

00:38:21.500 this celebration of indigenous cultures as these possessors of all things of value from which we

00:38:26.780 should now take learnings and apply them to our society and that's why we need to give 12 year

00:38:31.740 olds puberty blockers is not a very strong argument that's not anything like what i said though is it

00:38:36.220 well that was the argument that i brought up i really thought you were going to be open to me

00:38:41.020 i'm extremely open to you but you have to make a rational argument that persuades me okay so i

00:38:45.340 made lots of really interesting new arguments you'd never heard i have heard lots of those arguments

00:38:49.180 you haven't you haven't heard you haven't heard about which arguments i've heard because it's because

00:38:55.500 i live in this world and the adoption argument is i'm the first one making it that i am i don't know

00:39:01.020 that argument is not one i've ever heard and i it was interesting but that wasn't the argument

00:39:05.100 that i responded to i remember i responded to your argument about native indigenous people having

00:39:10.700 some kind of great wisdom that we should learn from that was the argument we were talking about

00:39:14.460 hold on a second you believe that i i do that's fine i don't but look at look at the if you look

00:39:20.140 if you go to if you go to peru yeah it's the indigenous people who are who are who are looking 0.99

00:39:25.740 after the amazon and who are defending it from just huge swathes of it being destroyed sure with all

00:39:32.940 with all that they can yeah i should actually take back what i said in that i don't think we have

00:39:36.620 nothing to learn from them uh but i think the implication that because they're indigenous we

00:39:41.340 should learn for everything but i'm i am suggesting this is something we could learn it is not i'm

00:39:46.620 saying it's not the only framework the only framework isn't women men it's not the only framework so i'm

00:39:51.900 i'm demonstrating to you through my research that there are other frameworks that you may be interested

00:39:57.900 in examining in case there's something interesting yes so how is it that they woke up and felt like

00:40:03.580 that but nobody now in the 21st century is going to wake up and feel like that it's impossible it's

00:40:08.620 impossible that we all fit into one of these boxes and the same people who don't like um trans people

00:40:13.820 saying i'm a woman don't like the non-binary category which is an attempt to say hey i don't

00:40:18.860 feel like either of these categories go no you can't be that either you have to be in the one box we put

00:40:23.580 you in i've never said that at all uh you may not have right so but we're having the conversation

00:40:29.100 with me so let's just stick with that the second argument i made was about you're unbelievable

00:40:33.500 like what you literally started by saying why am i not woke and i said because people these are the

00:40:38.940 kinds of things that people who say i'm anti-woke say and you might not say that but you do know a

00:40:44.860 lot of people who are anti-woke say non-binary isn't a category they do uh yes definitely so i am 0.96

00:40:52.060 suggesting that it is not possible that indigenous cultures that have survived to this day aboriginals

00:40:59.820 being the oldest in the whole of the history of the planet have people within it who have have a

00:41:05.180 tradition of gender fluidity but nobody feels gender fluid today or nobody feels gender non-conforming

00:41:11.500 today of course some people feel gender non-conforming what are they meant to do of course and if you

00:41:15.660 remember at the very beginning i said that there is some confusion i think in in our discussion here

00:41:20.700 between people who don't fit into the stereotype of what a man should be and a stereotype or a woman

00:41:26.300 should be and someone who claims to be the opposite sex that's the i think quite an important

00:41:30.860 distinction i don't see it as the opposite sex i don't think there's opposites i think that i think

00:41:34.620 it is far more fluid than that and i think you don't think there's the opposite sex so you don't think

00:41:39.100 there's male and female i i just think it is more fluid than that and i and i trust people when they

00:41:44.700 tell me that is not how they feel inside and much like the idea of an orphan which again did not

00:41:51.980 exist in the in the indigenous cultures i've researched that just didn't that wasn't really

00:41:55.740 a thing it wasn't something you could identify as it it's you were taken care of by the community it's

00:42:01.100 our framework that requires i've got to feel like one of these two and so some people have now said can

00:42:09.020 i be this third category and then people go no you've got to be one of these two and it has to be the

00:42:13.660 one you say you are and that makes people unhappy the way it made gay men unhappy to not be able to

00:42:18.860 say who they were it's making them unhappy and i don't understand why we need to scapegoat people

00:42:24.940 who say that they're telling you i definitely don't think we should be scapegoating anyone

00:42:29.420 at the same time because we treat men and women in society differently

00:42:33.580 the claim that you're a woman has consequences not only for you personally but also for the rest of

00:42:38.700 society it entitles you to certain protections that men don't enjoy and entitles you to access to 0.56

00:42:43.340 certain spaces that men don't have access to and that's really i think that the big debate when

00:42:48.140 it comes to adults when it comes to children there is a question about whether children are able to

00:42:52.860 make these decisions uh in a way that the decisions that they make which then have lifelong implications

00:42:59.180 particularly when it things it comes to medical uh sure which i talk about in my book that um uh very

00:43:05.740 very very very very very very few tiny percentage of uh of it's not children but of teens uh do ever

00:43:14.620 seek medication and even a tinier percentage of those have have gotten medication um if if

00:43:22.860 if uh puberty blockers have been given incorrectly have been pushed on anybody

00:43:28.460 um which they have then that is malpractice and that should be stopped that is that is that is

00:43:35.500 malpractice but it's a logical consequence of the claim that if somebody says that they feel a certain

00:43:40.220 way then they are that thing it's not what the it's not what doctors who prescribe them have said to me

00:43:44.940 they they've said that they only give uh puberty blockers if that child if that young person

00:43:50.300 is absolutely adamant and on the cusp of you know self-harm and they just can't live any other way

00:43:58.380 if you it's it is just not common here who did the bbc report into all of this and she was told that

00:44:05.820 at the tavistock clinic some children were given uh puberty blockers if i'm not mistaken after two

00:44:10.700 consultations yeah well i talk about the tavistock um the tavistock in my book but but what i'm saying

00:44:16.140 to you is it's a logical consequence but that's that's it's not a logical consequence it's malpractice

00:44:21.020 okay malpractice is two consultations and we give you no it's not a logical consequence it's

00:44:26.060 malpractice and if we find that there's a hospital near here and they've there's been malpractice in

00:44:32.700 you know hip surgery you don't close it down and say no more hip surgery for anyone we say we need

00:44:38.060 more safeguarding we need more training we need to make sure there's no malpractice

00:44:42.380 far more people regret surgery hip surgery than they do surgery to transition actually

00:44:49.100 all right we're about half an hour in and francis hasn't said a word so how about you this reminded

00:44:53.580 me of my childhood so thank you guys um the thing that the issue that i have with with wokeism

00:45:01.340 is i think you're very accurate in the way you describe it as a cult and by the way like we've said

00:45:05.860 before we see the same things on the right particularly when it comes to the right in america

00:45:09.820 where some very ugly thing very ugly things are starting to manifest things that we both feel

00:45:16.140 deeply uncomfortable with but let's just focus on wokeism for the moment the the thing that i have

00:45:22.220 the most the thing that wokeism really makes me feel really uncomfortable is cancel culture which

00:45:30.140 seems to be part and parcel of that particular ideology and as somebody who has seen communism and the

00:45:37.580 ultimate form of cancel culture i find it deeply sinister and the fact that it's marketed as being

00:45:43.900 kind or progressive i think is actually gaslighting it's not kind and it's not progressive i'll use an

00:45:50.780 example joe lycett the very famous uk comedian said that cancel culture has made the uk comedy industry

00:45:57.420 a kinder and better place it's done none of those things to strip somebody of their livelihood

00:46:02.380 and destroy their career and impact not only them but their families their children

00:46:07.100 i'd see nothing kind or better about that so i have a chapter about this in my book um a whole

00:46:12.540 chapter on cancel culture and um the problem i have with cancel culture is the same problem i had with

00:46:22.140 being a jehovah's witness um the wisdom is dispensed from on high if you don't agree with it you're told

00:46:31.820 to listen to apologize if you won't apologize you kind of get marked uh if you continue not to apologize

00:46:39.900 and you're even even though you know you're not really allowed to present your side of the story

00:46:44.860 and you can be completely shunned and that's the same model as a high control group

00:46:52.140 and then we have to ask the question what do we do if we know we have a predator in our midst if if

00:47:00.860 you know i'm on certain comedian whatsapp groups and women look out for each other and they say look

00:47:06.300 this happened to me it was an unpleasant experience i don't want to say anything about

00:47:09.100 it he's quite powerful comedian but i just want you to know that if you are in a car with him or you

00:47:14.300 you know you might want to get a lift with somebody else so that goes on all the time we tell each

00:47:18.220 other don't want to say anything about it can't prove it but we give each other those heads ups

00:47:23.980 and because say joe license talking about the comedy community the comedy community had has for many

00:47:28.700 years before the me too movement it was just a free-for-all there was literally nothing you

00:47:33.420 could say even if you made a sort of mild remark about i remember doing it about things being harder

00:47:40.060 for women or there being no women invited onto this bill even though so and so and so were free and

00:47:45.260 they're very well known to be good you would be i mean i was basically shunned once in edward for

00:47:51.020 saying something like that about an improv thing and people would not talk to me in the bar because

00:47:55.260 that that was the stranglehold any time you get a kind of absolute power model that power will be

00:48:01.500 abused and that power has been abused and it was abused so i think the me too movement was very

00:48:05.660 important to address that so what do we do when there's a predator in our midst and the law doesn't

00:48:10.060 really want to do anything about it or they say well there's no evidence for that or there's no will

00:48:15.020 um to do anything about it or you can't prove it what do we do and so that's what that's what that

00:48:21.260 chapter is analyzing but ultimately we there's a there's a whole section i've got on jurisprudence

00:48:28.780 and how um there's a there's a there's a lot of evidence that prisons are really they're sort of an

00:48:36.060 overhang from victorian times when when we warehoused people we didn't know what to do with

00:48:39.820 so you'd put children in the orphanage and you'd put poor people in the workhouse and you'd put 0.91

00:48:45.620 people who had mental health issues into a sanatorium and throw away the key and prisons

00:48:51.020 are sort of the only one left and certainly there are some people who need to be taken away from

00:48:57.320 society because otherwise they will really hurt people but most people are better off with community

00:49:03.380 intervention because otherwise what happens is you take someone out of the community it was causing

00:49:07.680 trouble in the community or hurting people in that community you put them in a place that is

00:49:12.320 totally lacking in empathy and so their problem was they were lacking in empathy you put them in a

00:49:18.200 place where they are brutalized where they are even if they're not physically brutalized they're

00:49:22.700 emotionally brutalized then you say okay you've done your time and we now having made you less

00:49:26.880 empathetic put you back into that community we know that community intervention is better

00:49:31.900 and crime doesn't go up so i talked to um a really interesting guy called jared bartle who's a

00:49:38.140 jurisprudence expert in um australia and he said in during covid they let a lot of people out of prisons

00:49:44.260 and gave them ankle bracelets and you know did community intervention stuff instead and the crime rate

00:49:49.300 didn't go up at all people are most people are much better off in their own communities and so

00:49:57.660 what the problem with counterculture is is we go we don't want that comedian in our midst anymore

00:50:03.280 so we shun him and he goes over there where does he go he doesn't leave earth so if he is a predator

00:50:09.740 he's now going over there to do predator predator things he's not left he's just you've moved the problem

00:50:15.180 on over there but now he's getting more and more and more and more bitter and he probably hangs out

00:50:19.800 with the two or three other guys who are in the same position they exacerbate each other they get

00:50:22.940 less empathy not more what they needed was more empathy to go don't do that that's really horrible

00:50:28.240 for them and then you've they get sidelined in the comedy community so you make the problem worse

00:50:33.680 you just shifted over there so what we need in the comedy community i think is is community intervention

00:50:39.220 if someone's done something criminal we need to act on that but if someone hasn't done something

00:50:44.760 criminal they're just uh they're just making life awful for the people around them then we need

00:50:51.380 community intervention ask 10 people to define capitalism and you'll probably get 10 different

00:50:57.340 answers it's a word that gets thrown around constantly but how many people actually know

00:51:02.220 what it means that's why i've been watching the free online course from hillsdale college called

00:51:07.160 understanding capitalism in seven lectures it breaks down not just what capitalism is but also why it

00:51:14.000 works i found the course does an incredible job of making complex concepts like the market economy

00:51:19.720 understandable you'll learn about the role of profit and loss why capitalism depends on private

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00:52:06.260 broadway's smash hit the neil diamond musical a beautiful noise is coming to toronto the true

00:52:13.520 story of a kid from brooklyn destined for something more featuring all the songs you love including

00:52:18.780 america forever in blue jeans and sweet caroline like jersey boys and beautiful the next musical mega hit

00:52:25.800 is here the neil diamond musical a beautiful noise april 28th through june 7th 2026 the princess of

00:52:33.060 wells theater get tickets at mirvish.com but i think the problem is and we've had many psychiatrists

00:52:41.500 talking about this when it comes to sex-based crimes it is pathological it's very likely that if you are

00:52:47.800 a sex offender you're a sexual predator you're a rapist it escalates and you will remain like that

00:52:53.520 for the rest of your life we had dr steve peters talk about this so if somebody is a rapist 0.99

00:52:59.740 i don't think that's the same as i'm not saying it's difficult they're they're they're there were

00:53:06.340 lots of men in comedy before me too and some of them still do but who were kind of predatorial i

00:53:12.720 think that's a totally that's what i said if it's something criminal we need to work on that we need to

00:53:17.380 we need to actually get that sorted and get that solved that person does need to be removed

00:53:23.080 uh and whatever rehabilitative work can be done should be done i think that our whole justice

00:53:30.720 system is screwed in that way and our whole idea of prison making anybody get better is absolutely

00:53:36.800 screwed on that i think um but that's a whole dismantling of a system but there are all sorts of

00:53:44.500 things on the spectrum there again it's a spectrum it's not you are or you aren't you're in or you're out

00:53:49.900 and so i think cancel culture a lot of people who are abolitionists and want to you know don't don't

00:53:59.560 like the way don't like prisons don't like the way the police operate are really really happy to have

00:54:04.560 some quite brutal cancel culture moves made and i think they they are at odds aren't they yeah to me

00:54:10.860 and this was my problem with me too not at the beginning but where it ended up where i had a friend

00:54:16.520 who was in the comedy community who was in the comedy industry he's no longer in the comedy industry

00:54:20.460 and i'm not using his name but he was effectively cancelled because women said that they felt awkward

00:54:28.260 around him female comedians did because he stood too close to them and talked to them he had autism 0.60

00:54:34.300 that's what he did to everybody that's what he did to me and this entire campaign was then started

00:54:39.480 his reputation was destroyed he nearly had a breakdown he nearly lost his job because he's socially

00:54:45.080 awkward well if that's the case that's terrible like i i don't know that i don't know the details

00:54:49.840 of that case or what else what else women were saying so i don't want to no i don't want to overly 1.00

00:54:54.080 you know you can't say his name and i don't know the details but if that's the case that's terrible

00:54:58.940 and so i the thing is i i am a progressive person who's known to be a public feminist yeah and i am

00:55:09.140 i it got to the point where i couldn't do the kind of work i'm doing anymore in that space

00:55:13.900 without saying what's going on with council culture because at the beginning of me too it was

00:55:21.000 really writing historical wrongs and drawing attention to something and shining a light

00:55:25.840 but like anything any any tool in the world can be used as a weapon and will be used as a weapon

00:55:33.680 that's how human beings are so someone can have a you know great tool to get the weeds out of the

00:55:40.540 garden or plant tomatoes or whatever but that can be used as a weapon and me too is an incredible tool

00:55:46.180 that has been used for great things otherwise harvey weinstein would still be out

00:55:51.040 destroying careers and and sexually assaulting people 0.96

00:55:54.960 but like any tool it can be used as a weapon and if we don't want the baby

00:56:01.220 to be thrown out with the bathwater we are going to have to let the baby grow up 1.00

00:56:05.000 i agree and then also there was this and it's still happy now let's take the case of alfie brown

00:56:11.760 do you remember do you remember that case of alfie brown so i'll explain to you what happened to alfie

00:56:16.300 and then we can and then we can discuss it and i'm going to be factual alfie was doing a preview

00:56:21.080 at a comedy club of his show he did a number of jokes basically jives very funny actually jokes about

00:56:28.660 corbyn the corbyn easter government insinuating that he was anti-semitic

00:56:33.280 it then went on to twitter there was a back and forth on twitter people then started to dig up

00:56:39.840 old interviews of alfie during in podcasts they also an old routine was dug up where the premise

00:56:47.580 of the routine was i think that if you wanted to have a good slur you needed a hard consonant a good

00:56:56.060 racial slur you needed a hard consonant that's why all the racial slurs had hard consonants in them

00:57:01.600 and he just went through all of them and he said and that's that is why all all slurs have

00:57:08.800 hard consonants he didn't execute it particularly well this was a routine that was over eight years

00:57:14.900 old it was then dug up and it was then used to prove that he was a racist and then it was then

00:57:21.040 used to cancel him his shows got pulled lost opportunities blah blah blah i have a real issue

00:57:27.980 with that and people claiming that they were offended and that's the reason as somebody who

00:57:32.720 has been called many of those slurs as someone who uh looks jewish i get more than my version of

00:57:38.760 anti-semitism online and as someone with a latin american background i also get that as well online

00:57:45.120 twitter x whatever you want to call it social media is accessible as we all know

00:57:48.680 and i have a real issue with that i have a very very real issue with that that suddenly

00:57:55.020 you can claim to be offended by something by something that happened years before and then

00:58:00.760 use it to destroy somebody's career just because you felt offended well i'm gonna go on a large limb

00:58:07.420 here and say i don't think alfie's career is is destroyed alfie's a working company he's doing all

00:58:12.220 right no he lost a lot of opportunities at the time gigs were cancelled sure i'm sure it was i'm sure it was

00:58:18.100 unpleasant but i don't think it's in the realm of it's it's not in the realm of a louis ck who is

00:58:24.920 also back and has won a grammy so i think that's the other thing we do need to contextualize

00:58:29.000 that's an unfair comparison because alfie did nothing wrong and louis ck did do something wrong

00:58:34.560 but i'm that's what i'm saying it's a spectrum so like let's talk about it as a spectrum it's not

00:58:39.600 it's not a it's not a kind of black and white i think if people are going to go back in time and

00:58:46.100 dig stuff up and um uh you know with with an agenda um it's because they know what they're

00:58:54.700 doing and that's a decision they're making and that is a that is a part of modern life

00:58:59.140 um that it's unpleasant in terms of i'd say it's more than unpleasant it's more than unpleasant it's

00:59:08.660 reputation destruction that is no i understand what you're saying i'm just trying to think it through

00:59:12.780 i think i think it's uh as i say alfie's working and alfie's alfie's very successful i don't think

00:59:21.620 it's i think it's it's not as um it's it's not like a permanent cancellation but i also think

00:59:29.180 so i have a book i have a chapter in the book called freedom of speech in comedy

00:59:33.240 and one thing that i say in that because i i'm a i mean i think people always you know sometimes the

00:59:39.180 bbc will ring me up and say they can't you know uh they they uh baby it's cold outside is being

00:59:46.580 banned on the radio um and uh we want you as a feminist to say that that's a good thing basically 1.00

00:59:53.200 is what they're saying and i'm like i'm not going to like what why do you think they want me to be

00:59:57.300 mary whitehouse and i'm like i'm a gen x comedian i'm not in for banning stuff it's just not who i am

01:00:02.520 but they misunderstand they see feminist and they go you'll want to ban baby it's cold i won't want 0.71

01:00:06.660 maybe it's cold outside and when you look into it it's not being banned it's uh they've it's you

01:00:11.140 know it was the me too era where they were like let's curate something else this year let's just

01:00:15.080 do jingle bell rock instead it's probably a little tone deaf at this particular time in history is all

01:00:20.100 that's going on um but uh i don't want to ban stuff i don't want to dig stuff up on people i also find

01:00:27.680 it slightly disturbing when i see uh but you know this guy's going to be booked on snl but 10 years ago he

01:00:33.800 did this tweet that was clearly an edgelord joke but it also i don't think that that man is genuinely

01:00:40.640 gets up every morning is motivated by racism so it's a it's it's a it's an area where i go i feel

01:00:47.940 like it's it's it feels like a really unpleasant part of modern life that people are on line trying

01:00:56.580 to be private detectives to try and destroy you over this because i really want to get you for that

01:01:02.340 and i don't i don't like it i don't endorse it i also think comics

01:01:08.060 some comics say stuff that

01:01:14.760 they don't really understand or care how how what they are saying might land as every tool is a weapon

01:01:27.140 right so a joke can be a tool can also be used as a weapon um so i would say jimmy carr's joke

01:01:34.240 did you see that big thing about jimmy carr so in his big netflix special yeah in his netflix

01:01:40.500 special it's called his dark material and it's specifically it's about being able to do dark

01:01:45.760 material about edgy stuff that's what it is and he really contextualize it he goes this is the joke

01:01:49.700 that's going to end my career and uh he i break down the whole joke in the book but it's he goes

01:01:55.340 um he's like um in the holocaust and he looks to camera like yeah i'm going to go there 0.57

01:02:01.220 in the holocaust and he's he says uh people always talk about six million jews being killed

01:02:06.340 but they rarely talk about the i can't remember what it is but the the hundreds of thousands or

01:02:12.380 millions of um gypsies that were killed and then there's a gap and then he goes because no one

01:02:17.900 wants to talk about the positives when people talk about the holocaust they talk about the tragedy 0.87

01:02:22.680 and horror of six million jewish lives being lost to the nazi war machine but they never mention the

01:02:29.140 thousands of gypsies that were killed by the nazis no one ever wants to talk about that because no one

01:02:33.460 ever wants to talk about the positives right and uh then he tries to explain why that joke is very

01:02:44.180 clever very funny while it's educational and why it's so good and of course it caused a huge fury and

01:02:49.880 even the comedians that kind of stood up for jimmy on a basic jimmy's my mate uh sort of basis no one

01:02:56.440 really stood up for the joke because the joke is not funny enough it's not it's not to be worth that

01:03:04.100 that that level of nastiness when amnesty international have said that romany people

01:03:11.340 traveling people who jimmy calls gypsies and um some people own that term some people don't so i

01:03:16.440 won't um that uh amnesty says romany people are the most disenfranchised the most overly criminalized

01:03:23.520 population in this country they have the least protections they don't have famous people standing

01:03:27.880 up for them and famous they don't have representation now that joke we know will no doubt be used in the

01:03:36.520 playground against a kid because jimmy said it the audience has laughed because it's edgy

01:03:41.580 and they've laughed in shock they can't believe jimmy said that that's where the laugh's coming

01:03:45.380 from and that's where jimmy wants the laugh to be coming from jimmy doesn't want to hurt romany people

01:03:49.060 jimmy doesn't care about that he just doesn't that's not what he's doing he's doing a shock joke

01:03:54.160 and that's his joy and that's his bliss and that's what he wants to do

01:03:57.560 but what i'm asking is um i don't want anything banned but i want comedians and i want

01:04:05.380 broadcasters to ask about what they're curating and to again like i say to the me too movement if

01:04:13.440 you're not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater let it grow up because that will be used

01:04:17.860 as a grenade for sure in the playground against you know romany kids that are there it's like oh

01:04:23.000 never one wants to talk about the positives and then the teacher comes along they go it's just

01:04:26.640 saying what jimmy carr said and if multi-millionaire jimmy carr and his amani suit standing on stage

01:04:32.780 at the home of apollo with a multi-million dollar netflix special can say it why can't this kid

01:04:37.060 so it and and that kid may come from a community where he hears a lot of racism about romany people

01:04:43.440 right so i'm asking i'm not saying ban anything but i'm just saying think about what we're saying

01:04:50.700 because yes we should be free in comedy to go wherever we want that's the art form blah blah

01:04:55.600 blah but we're also free to drive a car but we also understand there are rules and and also 0.97

01:05:03.200 conventions about not driving like an asshole if it's going to really inconvenience or hurt somebody 0.96

01:05:08.840 else we know that that's that's understandable a lot of comedians are better people driving to the 0.97

01:05:12.400 gig than they are at the gig and that just makes me go hmm i wonder why you're doing that i wonder

01:05:18.800 why you're not choosing to be as funny about something else that isn't going to probably

01:05:25.880 have a real world knock-on effect so i would say to alfie i bet you anything alfie would go that joke

01:05:31.860 wasn't good enough and i don't know why i did it and i was experimenting with being edgy i doubt

01:05:36.460 alfie would stand behind the joke or is still doing the joke about all the slurs and are they hilarious

01:05:41.420 years ago he no longer does that exactly when he was a younger man and this is incredibly pertinent

01:05:46.140 to the argument at a different time societally absolutely absolutely this is going to sound

01:05:50.460 weird coming from me but i think you're on the on the most of it you're actually agreeing so me

01:05:54.060 playing peacemaker here is strange but i i think actually what i'm hearing from debra is you agree

01:05:59.000 cancelling people is a bad idea but what i this is something francis and i have said from day one which

01:06:04.140 is i think cancel culture first of all it's a human thing anyway but also it emerges from the gap

01:06:09.860 between what we can prosecute legally and what we know is wrong and immoral behavior that can't be

01:06:15.780 punished through the legal system the legal system does not cover all forms of bad behavior

01:06:20.340 effectively right and so it was an attempt to deal with things that were sitting under the surface

01:06:25.980 that couldn't be dealt with through the criminal justice system and sometimes just aren't like they

01:06:31.540 yeah you know let's be incredibly honest about the rate the the rape rape conviction is so low most

01:06:37.820 people won't even most women won't report a rape because they just know their lives are going to be

01:06:41.920 destroyed and they will not get any satisfaction that's what prima facie the play was about it's just

01:06:47.460 so rare so yes there will be men for example in the comedy community who are you know criminals but

01:06:57.180 there's nothing we can do about it because they're not going to be convicted or we can't prove it in

01:07:01.380 a way that you know the court expects us to and actually everyone also in in the british judicial

01:07:07.620 system now has to watch prima facie before they do a rape trial to understand that is policy to 1.00

01:07:14.540 understand how difficult it is for someone to come forward and then how difficult it is to go through

01:07:21.780 that and how unlikely it is that they'll ever get any justice so um you know we are we are dealing

01:07:31.060 with an incredibly broad spectrum of from and this is the problem with it really we all know that 0.60

01:07:37.360 that man has been accused of rape by a number of women but nothing is done nothing continues to be

01:07:42.500 done and somebody made a really quite nasty tasteless joke but it was eight years ago he doesn't stand

01:07:50.300 behind it he'd like to get it taken off the internet he's happy to apologize for it and someone's dug it

01:07:55.740 up because they've got a different beef with him now yeah and can we see the kind of the spectrum that

01:08:00.980 we're playing in and this is why i think we need we just need more nuance and in all of these things

01:08:06.320 i just think we need more discussion because it's not either or and it's not this or that

01:08:12.280 it's it's crunchy stuff that we want to think it all through we want to we want to we want to really

01:08:19.340 sit with it and go what kind of society do we want to be and we want to take into account all of these

01:08:27.180 things we do want to take into account how indigenous people lived and if there's anything we can learn and

01:08:32.180 we do want to take into account that comedy is crunchy and contravening norms is something that

01:08:38.700 comedy has always done but but society has changed and now you know it used to be that lenny bruce would

01:08:45.660 say the unsayable and there was one space for that and it was a basement comedy club and now look at the

01:08:51.360 internet what is unsayable there's nothing that you're saying that's so edgy that isn't said every single

01:08:57.040 day on reddit you do not need to perform the service of saying the unsayable every day anymore

01:09:02.860 people are saying all sorts of nasty stuff and i think you know the idea that that comedy is for

01:09:11.400 you know oh we've got to all be transgressive in this space i'm like the most transgressive thing now

01:09:16.360 is to be not transgressive actually when you look at people's daily life and what they're looking at

01:09:20.540 on porn hub and and quorum quorum reddit and you know all of these different different spaces if

01:09:26.740 you if you're still on x bloody hell like everything is every unsayable thing is being said all of the 0.62

01:09:32.860 time well the left did a thing about uh it obsessed with virtue signaling for ages which is signaling how 0.82

01:09:38.800 good of a person you are what's happening on the right now is there's an obsession with vice signaling

01:09:43.140 which is uh the the more transgressive the thing you say the cooler you are and so people are 0.88

01:09:50.180 starting to say all this moronic stuff not even often because they believe it or anything else not

01:09:56.120 even if it's funny or not they're just saying it because it's transgressive and that's the only 0.99

01:10:00.620 purpose of it um which is obviously totally pointless and and a giant waste and it's made

01:10:05.820 i uh it's made a lot of social media which i actually always always enjoyed there's always been

01:10:12.680 robust debate and all of this stuff i never mind people having a go at me and whatever um but i think

01:10:18.880 it's just made the whole environment very um first the most the worst thing about it is made

01:10:24.620 a very inauthentic it's made a very inauthentic in that you're not actually talking to human beings

01:10:29.420 you're just talking to people who are trying to say something like that but anyway uh we've talked

01:10:34.240 about two of the six conversations we talked about trans as much as we could and we talked about

01:10:39.320 cancel culture what else have we not covered um so uh the first chapter there's some interesting

01:10:46.280 stuff in there about how modern life is um modeling cults um and one of the things that said a lot is

01:10:54.360 just just picking up on what you said there is that people often say uh the internet makes us less

01:11:00.200 empathetic or social media makes us less empathetic and there was in fact a study done in 2009 that said

01:11:05.820 people are getting less empathetic and actually when you look into it and i've broken it down on in

01:11:09.700 the book um it didn't really prove that at all um but it you know you can read about in the book

01:11:17.740 but what i'm arguing there's then there was another study it didn't say that the internet had made it

01:11:23.300 just posited that but it didn't actually look at that and then it was another study that looked into

01:11:27.100 it and found that social media made children more empathetic and uh so i started looking at that

01:11:33.900 and i've what i discovered and what i'm arguing is that every single day social media which we think

01:11:39.900 oh it makes you less empathetic trolls and keyboard warriors every single day it demands that you be

01:11:47.300 more and more empathetic but to fewer and fewer people yes yeah so uh i one thing i argued about

01:11:54.640 argued against in 2016 when it came up so i started the guilty feminist in end of 2015 2016 it was kind of

01:12:02.140 in full swing and this men are trash hashtag came up and i was like guys what do you think

01:12:09.400 a 14 year old boy who's just trying to figure out how to be a man just i don't know he's a nice guy 0.96

01:12:17.260 or he isn't in his little self but he's probably just a little complicated person who isn't anything

01:12:23.260 yet he's just figuring out how to be a human being and how to be a man how is that how is that landing

01:12:27.700 with him i'll be honest with you deborah as someone who was in their mid-30s at the time and has

01:12:31.680 always you know i'm not saying that i've succeeded but i've always tried to be a good person and do

01:12:36.780 my best that really pissed me off it pissed me off because i and what i was saying at the time was

01:12:42.360 okay so there's there's again it's not binary i don't really believe in this sort of it is that or

01:12:48.000 isn't that we're all on a spectrum we're all flawed we're we're all fucked we're all doing our 0.90

01:12:55.080 best there are some people probably on polar opposites who just get out of bed every day to make 0.97

01:12:59.960 other people happy or some people who are blatant sociopaths and who um you know psychopaths who are

01:13:07.160 not empathetic at all but most of us are in the middle we we've got some love we've got some fear

01:13:13.320 and all the other emotions are those two emotions in costumes um that's what i think it's just we're

01:13:19.860 all we're trying to struggle through so for me a 14 year old boy hearing that just to use the most

01:13:24.580 extreme example probably i i feel like what he's hearing is you can't be any better than you are

01:13:34.040 on your worst days and if you're on your best day and you're really trying hard or you advocate for 0.95

01:13:40.200 somebody else um it doesn't really matter because we're going to see you as trash anyway

01:13:44.660 and i said at the time and i said it on other people's podcasts i was begging people to stop using 0.77

01:13:49.860 it begging feminists to stop using it and they i think they were kind of riding high a little bit 1.00

01:13:55.220 on what was happening in the world and you know there was a time of you know a little bit of

01:14:00.820 getting our own back i think that's what was going on at that time because women had felt not listened

01:14:05.740 to not heard it was before me too um we all we'd had is a march if we'd even had a march then we had

01:14:13.480 probably hadn't even had a march then we did we have our march 2018 so we probably hadn't even had a

01:14:17.440 march it was it was so it was such a time of kind of clawing for something but i was saying at the

01:14:25.280 time that 14 year old boy that's what he's hearing and guys who are really bad who hurt women

01:14:32.280 when they are um caught i know this is true psychologists and also i had somebody in my show

01:14:39.520 from the government where they specifically work on this problem um this is absolutely true men who hurt 1.00

01:14:45.340 women when psychologists work with them truly believe that all men do it or want to do it but 0.96

01:14:55.040 just aren't man enough quote unquote that's what they think so when you tell men men are trash the 0.96

01:15:03.120 ones who do hurt women are hearing that and going yeah all men are trash so when men say to me not all 0.98

01:15:10.620 men i go yeah we know a hundred percent of the men i've been with have not killed me i i know i live 0.95

01:15:17.260 with men i work with men i get in a cab i know it's not all men i want men who are basically good guys who

01:15:24.480 wouldn't hurt women to tell the other ones not all men because the ones who do hurt hurt women they

01:15:31.040 think it is all men they're the ones you need to tell you don't need to tell me i know it's not all

01:15:35.020 men i think it is the minority of men who are violent towards women and by the way male on

01:15:41.660 male violence is a is you know much higher than male on female violence it is a male problem but

01:15:46.320 the truth of the matter is if men stop killing killing would stop very very few deaths are from

01:15:51.840 women and generally it's either women in self-defense or in coercive control situations 1.00

01:15:56.500 under the group of a man that is the that's the fact so it is not all men please tell the men it is

01:16:04.060 it's not all men because i they don't hear me because i am the other to them

01:16:08.160 we'll get you back to the interview in just a sec but first imagine this you're walking down the

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01:17:24.320 free one more time expressvpn.com slash trigger sorry do you have no no no the point that i was

01:17:33.280 going to make was that the the thing that i knew was going to happen was there was going to be a 0.99

01:17:40.700 backlash there is only so long you can tell a group of people that they are wrong evil stupid 1.00

01:17:49.660 disgusting simply through the fact that they have these immutable characteristics before they turn 1.00

01:17:55.400 around and go you know what fuck you and i see andrew tate as part of that backlash if i'm being 0.99

01:18:03.880 honest well what because and people and by the way i am no fan of tate i want to make that absolutely 0.99

01:18:09.940 clear but to me when people go this is awful of course he's awful that is a symptom of a backlash

01:18:16.780 tate isn't the problem the problem is what is underneath that that has given rise to his

01:18:22.120 prominence i would suggest that we cannot blame feminism for the manosphere the manosphere is 1.00

01:18:26.860 is far too i'm not blaming feminism i'm blaming all men are trash and that kind of punitive vengeful 0.96

01:18:33.200 those punitive vengeful movements i think have created a backlash that's my argument i would say 0.95

01:18:38.240 that misogyny is a deep and vast mine and i don't think you can really blame very recent feminist 1.00

01:18:44.520 marches and some hashtags for it it's much deeper than that andrew tate is much deeper than that

01:18:49.120 it hasn't helped i'll give you that and i was saying i was saying all through that i was going

01:18:54.880 you know those 14 year old boys now they were 16 then how old are they now going to be 24 25 yeah

01:19:00.640 and a lot of them are looking to jordan peterson a lot of them are looking to andrew tate and that to

01:19:05.160 me again is a spectrum of manosphere ideas and then that bleeds into zuckerberg going we need more

01:19:12.080 masculine energy at facebook i've worked at facebook they do not need any mom well actually 0.95

01:19:16.040 it's interesting you bring up jordan and andrew in the same sentence because i actually see the

01:19:20.280 distinction between the two of them as very telling jordan peterson was a a male role model

01:19:27.400 for men of our generation some men of our generation a very constructive figure who told

01:19:34.440 them how to be better um and taught them certain values and importance of you know there's a clip

01:19:40.620 we had the somebody on our team who had a baby recently and i sent him a video of jordan's uh

01:19:45.980 talking about uh the most important thing when your child is born is to look after your wife

01:19:51.000 uh that's your job yes your number one job so he he had a very positive impact on young men

01:19:56.760 uh the next generation's male role model is andrew tate and i think that that difference and that

01:20:03.220 negative evolution is precisely the point of francis's making i never really felt that the all men are

01:20:08.840 trash thing was an attack against me but there are a lot of young men younger than us who did feel

01:20:14.780 that and that thing you're talking about about vengefulness it's the thing that we find very

01:20:18.540 of putting about the right nowadays particularly in america uh they're like oh now we have the power

01:20:23.120 and now we're going to show them and that's exactly what men felt when a lot of men felt especially

01:20:28.440 young men who are not as advantaged as people like to pretend in our society we've just had various

01:20:34.020 reports come out about the fact that the gender pay gap now works the other way and all sorts of other

01:20:38.300 things i i would like to see that yeah you should look into i would like to see that yeah you should

01:20:42.780 look into it so uh the point i'm making is that evolution from jordan peterson to andrew tate

01:20:48.520 is exactly the thing that francis is talking about as the backlash i see i do you not think jordan

01:20:54.340 jordan peterson has missed the turnoff now i've seen him say some really unpleasant things about women

01:20:58.540 like what oh just that um men can't control insane women you know that kind of thing it's a i mean no

01:21:04.400 one can control insane women that's for sure i mean do you not find that no one can control insane 1.00

01:21:10.180 men either insane people are quite difficult to control well yeah but it's it's it's said in a

01:21:15.360 context of you know that's what they like you can find if you look if you google jordan peterson

01:21:20.280 quotes about women you'll find anyone's quotes you can find things i have seen him say stuff that i

01:21:25.580 i find unpleasant i know jordan very well uh i've been on tour with him uh i've seen 10 000 people turn

01:21:31.460 out for his shows well dressed uh who and i've seen him talk to the people who come to his shows

01:21:36.620 afterwards and all of them to a person say you've made me a better person here's the girlfriend i

01:21:41.560 met because of you etc he's made an incredible positive impact i'm not saying he has i'm not

01:21:47.060 saying he has not said anything wise i'm saying i i find it kind of a bit scarier sometimes when

01:21:55.200 somebody has this sort of um respectability element of look at all my well-dressed fans

01:22:02.020 and then they can start to say almost anything because they have jordan's done quite the opposite

01:22:07.360 though he's become far more considerate and careful over time maybe i missed that phase of jordan and

01:22:13.920 i'll i'll look back into it but i i have i've seen things that i've i haven't got them to hand and i

01:22:19.580 don't want to be misquoting okay um so but i've seen things that have troubled me about jordan peterson

01:22:25.440 oh i'm sure i'm sure but but that doesn't mean he's a bad person it just might mean that you have

01:22:31.020 a different view of things right it like you and i have a different view of things but i i doesn't

01:22:36.560 necessarily mean that i come away from this conversation thinking you're a bad person or

01:22:39.960 you hate men likewise the other way around right so uh what i'm saying the point i'm making

01:22:45.360 is not jordan's human i'm sure he said things that you don't like i'm sure he said things i don't like

01:22:50.440 but on balance he's someone who's made a huge positive impact on men andrew tay i see is very

01:22:57.000 much the opposite of that right and the point francis is making is i think there's a lot of truth to the

01:23:03.740 idea that this constant the thing that you were against the thing that you were speaking against

01:23:08.800 is what's created that shift so that now we've gone from jordan peterson to andrew tay i think it's a

01:23:14.640 lot more sinister than that i think it's i i don't think it's helped and i've i opened by saying

01:23:18.680 this didn't help this did not help and the constant uh them and us-ing the cult like them and us-ing

01:23:26.280 and i do see this on both sides i see it i see it across the board across the political scape

01:23:31.760 and i feel like my side is the progressive left yeah and therefore i want to keep my own house in order

01:23:38.200 and i also think the progressive left are meant to be empathetic and helping other people up that's the

01:23:43.500 that's the whole name of the game for us what are we doing saying anybody is trash it's dehumanizing

01:23:49.960 i don't know why we're doing it and i fought against it for years and i feel angry that it has

01:23:56.960 exacerbated the situation however um i also think when you look at project 25 and the heritage foundation

01:24:04.920 in america and the rise of the trad wife and the it's the increasing um unpleasantness of far-right 1.00

01:24:15.200 politics that is rising up and elon musk trying to buy elections across america for the far across

01:24:21.460 europe for the far right i think it's just so much more sinister the andrew tate of it all is so much

01:24:26.860 more sinister than well if you're gonna say we're trash we're gonna build a an uber misogynist i think

01:24:34.960 there's so much else driving it and going on and i think it's a little cosmetic to say so what is

01:24:39.440 the fault of um honestly i uh i think um i had a really interesting conversation which is in the book

01:24:48.400 i've got it as an interview in the book with a guy called neil data who is the head of uh the

01:24:53.860 european a forum for sexual reproductive rights um in europe so it's european obviously in europe

01:25:01.620 and so it's basically a forum and he gets all the mps that care that women have it's really that women

01:25:07.360 have um access to birth control abortion and cervical smears you know for stop cancer and you know just

01:25:15.000 basically that kind of uh package and um it it's basically he explained to me and then i looked

01:25:26.660 into it and this does check out um that around 2012 um there was i mean i don't know how much i

01:25:35.360 really want to say about this and maybe i should just let people read it in the book but basically

01:25:39.460 there was a there was some christian far-right nationalists who got very angry that they were

01:25:44.680 losing based on the fact that both the uk and france uh brought in equal marriage and it was around

01:25:52.840 that time and they went okay if it's the mad scandies the danes will marry a chair that's nothing to do 1.00

01:25:58.400 with us but when it's the united kingdom and when it's france we've got to we've got to do something

01:26:03.400 here and they came over and they had a forum in um they had a sort of conference in the uk um around

01:26:09.540 2011 2012 that time and they said we got to stop asking what what do we want and we've got to start

01:26:16.840 asking what can we get because if we come into the uk saying no abortion anti-gay rights we'll we'll be

01:26:23.720 laughed at as crackpots and one of the questions they asked was what do feminists disagree on and do 1.00

01:26:28.680 you know what they came up with trans rights but they'd always been a little bit of a uh well back 0.97

01:26:35.320 back to the 60s is that gay rights is that queer rights is this how is this related sorry i don't

01:26:41.020 follow so it's all part of the same um sort of bubbling up of uh this is this is not how we want

01:26:49.800 it to be and i think there's a real you can really draw a line between the um the kind of bubbling

01:26:57.540 up of this extreme misogyny and at the same time that heritage foundation family values um and

01:27:04.860 there's evidence that the that the the heritage foundation are funding the trad wives like you 0.99

01:27:09.340 know that but do you know that um ballet farm yeah forgive me i'm genuinely not being just like a

01:27:15.400 i don't follow how andrew tate comes from that i think it's just like a landscape well here's an

01:27:20.960 example andrew tate has now been given the he was he was uh he was here somewhere in he was in florida

01:27:29.040 florida he's been moved to florida but he was moved no no he wasn't moved to florida he went he was

01:27:33.740 granted leave by the romanian courts and he's a u.s citizen so he went on holiday to florida i thought

01:27:39.660 that was that that was somehow given to him by trump or no no it wasn't okay no no no i think deborah's

01:27:46.340 right i think um the trump administration put pressure on romania to release him to be able

01:27:52.820 to go back that's what i thought happened yeah that's what happened and that's i mean that's

01:27:56.380 what i read and you know one must always check one sources on the internet but that's what i read and

01:28:00.080 i think that is accurate um but and it just feels like a sort of rising tide to me okay let me give

01:28:08.340 you a different version because that sounds a little wishy-washy but actually what you're getting

01:28:11.900 i think is not inaccurate a right-wing person of whom i know many would say that what you're

01:28:17.920 describing is an a reaction to progressive overreach um now i don't think gay marriage is progressive

01:28:26.200 overreach uh but many of the things by the way i think uh part of the part that we've talked about

01:28:32.080 that's missing from this is the social media aspect which comes along around 2014 and you see

01:28:36.760 the rise of all of this stuff happening um but there are lots of other things that people will

01:28:41.100 describe as progressive overreach to which they're reacting and um andrew tay and all sorts of other

01:28:46.540 social movements are certainly a reaction to that which is the sense that like you know uh you said it

01:28:52.780 yourself you know we we now finally have the opportunity to get our message across and there

01:28:57.520 was a kind of crudeness to that there was a vengefulness to that there was a a but that in itself is a

01:29:02.680 response as a response to patriarchal overreach which has been intact for a very long time like you

01:29:07.920 you know you can't expect people to have no voice for so long and be then we're stuck in this doom

01:29:13.080 loop and then if no one not come out and have something to say about if no one wants to forgo

01:29:17.920 vengeance then we are stuck in this doom loop i think it's unfair to say that women took vengeance 1.00

01:29:22.940 they took some glee i would say some women took some glee but again this is some women feminists 1.00

01:29:29.700 this tiny group really when you look at the most people in this country are watching

01:29:33.500 so the far right it's just some men it's just some men but it's some very powerful men

01:29:38.820 some very powerful women look that hashtag was trending and it wasn't just a hashtag let me just 1.00

01:29:44.760 you cannot equate you cannot equate some power very powerful men so who's the equivalent of donald

01:29:49.280 trump and elon musk who can actually change our lives name me that woman and i'll tell you what it

01:29:53.320 isn't it's not hillary clinton it's not kamala harris who is that woman well set aside those two i so i 1.00

01:29:58.820 certainly wouldn't say those of those two men is far right uh but you wouldn't say elon musk or donald

01:30:03.080 trump or far right definitely not they're literally cancelling everything anything they're cancelling

01:30:08.880 they're destroying life okay perhaps i perhaps we have a different different definition of what

01:30:12.940 far right is what would you say what's the definition of far right in your head what what about them

01:30:17.100 isn't far right is i would ask you but what what is what about what they're doing isn't far right i

01:30:22.120 understand your question in order to answer your question we both have to agree on a definition of

01:30:25.780 far right they've literally said no they've taken they've taken pause just pause for a moment what is

01:30:31.220 your definition of far right it's it's far further than um fiscal conservatism okay it's uh it is social

01:30:43.240 conservatism that says there is there is one proper way to live and that way is a heteronormative

01:30:50.420 family 2.4 children women should be having babies this is all heritage foundation values this is all

01:30:57.540 project 2025 staff and this is this is well and also if you don't agree with this here's an example

01:31:05.520 of something far right that trump and musk are doing if you don't agree with this um if you go to if if

01:31:13.180 if um universities allow illegal protests by which they mean protests the students will be instantly

01:31:21.720 dismissed this is what the american government are saying if if so you you're at harvard you want to

01:31:28.240 protest that government side as a legal protest the students will be instantly dismissed if they're

01:31:33.680 foreign students they'll be sent home um they may be arrested and imprisoned no matter where they're

01:31:37.860 from and if the if the university is allowed at all federal funding will be pulled from that

01:31:42.700 university does that or does that not seem to you to be verging into fascism uh no i don't think it's

01:31:48.920 verging into fascism uh but but so uh what what what what would cause your alarms to go off then

01:31:56.200 the right the right to protest is incredibly important um and if without it what do we have

01:32:00.840 what kind of government do we have hold on a second i'm answering your question the uh the right to

01:32:05.280 protest is incredibly important i think the the interesting thing about those particular cases that

01:32:09.220 you're referring to is whether there is celebration glorification or promotion of terrorism which

01:32:14.400 is illegal both in this country and in the u.s and i think that's probably where the dividing line is

01:32:18.860 on on that issue um but uh i i'm a little bit confused please do not think for one second this isn't going

01:32:26.620 to hit uh queer people lgbtq plus people it is hitting them right now there are states where they are 0.84

01:32:34.720 arguing to take um take back the right to equal marriage and their estates which are putting in 0.83

01:32:41.600 putting forward these sort of um i can't remember what they call them now but sort of some kind of um

01:32:46.940 special trust marriages where we give you a tax break but the marriage is one from which a woman cannot 1.00

01:32:54.060 divorce a man basically without these really old-fashioned like we're literally talking about the rights

01:33:01.460 that women fought for that unless you can prove that your partner's been faithful or you can prove

01:33:06.060 that they've been significantly abusive you cannot divorce them yes i mean we are in we are heading

01:33:11.940 into gilead uh we really are that's not none of those are things that anybody here supports but um

01:33:17.860 i'm just coming back to this idea of uh trump and musk being far right uh you initially talked about

01:33:23.300 the heritage foundation traditional marriage trad all of that stuff and then we talked about fascism so

01:33:28.800 is your definition are you saying trump and musk are fascists i'm saying that the the government is

01:33:36.420 is making moves which makes anybody who is frightened of fascism which should be all of us

01:33:43.480 very scared like i feel like saying if it's an illegal protest and what kind of protest does trump

01:33:50.600 like you know trump what does he like i don't know trump well you know you've seen him in power

01:33:55.600 before if the students were all out protesting in a state where they were taking away equal marriage

01:34:03.140 and there were loads of gay year students trump is pro equal marriage isn't he and elon certainly

01:34:09.940 i would imagine they're all pro wellness social capital in it but he hasn't been saying anything

01:34:14.280 positive about gay people lately has he uh has he said anything negative about gay people i'm pretty

01:34:19.720 sure which way is the wind blowing be honest in america oh yeah but but and then who's in charge

01:34:25.980 yeah but this is the interesting thing because uh it's the worrying thing about the right now

01:34:31.620 trump seems like a moderate compared to some of the people um who are outside of the the halls of

01:34:37.800 power then in that case someone else is pulling the strings and he's allowing them to be pulled because

01:34:41.240 it is it is fast going towards i don't like neither does francis a lot of the things that are

01:34:48.800 happening uh in america in particular on the right you don't need to convince anyone here of that i'm

01:34:53.420 just i i'm kind of a bit of a stickler for definitions because i think it's important and

01:34:57.300 one of the things this is one of the big things that's happened uh that really always worried me

01:35:02.320 with wokeness and i think we're now seeing unfortunately the tragic results of that which is

01:35:06.900 when people throw around labels like fascist and nazi and and bigot and or whatever irresponsibly as

01:35:14.420 they did and they continue to do uh what then happens is there are now actual nazis actual nazis

01:35:21.560 not people who who who say you know trans woman isn't a woman or whatever but people who actually

01:35:27.020 are doing holocaust denial people who are actually uh saying oh hitler was a good guy all of this stuff

01:35:32.720 and we can't call them a nazi anymore and be credibly believed because the left spend years

01:35:37.180 calling people a nazi for you know thinking pronouns are funny or whatever do you see what i mean

01:35:41.220 i i think you can and it has no effect on the right anymore it has no effect i don't really

01:35:48.500 think you can i don't really think you can blame some young people who like the internet is a vicious

01:35:54.740 place it wasn't young people david lammy called the erg he went on national television in britain

01:36:01.580 with andrew mar and said that the erg the basically a group of conservatives who are pro-brexit

01:36:07.640 are worse than nazis it wasn't young people it was the entire left i was the entire left

01:36:13.920 we do know that boris johnson um is with steve banyan who is a white supremacist we do know that 0.75

01:36:22.060 there are links between victor orban salvini and others i'm not backing off on this never when i back

01:36:28.060 off on off on this on behalf of my constituents and the bbc should not allow this extreme hard

01:36:36.760 right fascism to flourish and often the well these are these are elected conservative mp i don't care

01:36:44.080 how elected they were so was the far right in germany they're often elected often giving a cover

01:36:51.400 for the thugs on the ground look i don't know that it was the entire left i don't remember calling

01:36:56.160 anyone a nazi and i would say myself on the left i think i think we've all got a problem that we go

01:37:01.820 on the internet and whatever the worst things that we see even though there's fewer of them than the

01:37:07.040 best things and there's fewer of them most people most people aren't even on social media in that

01:37:10.820 capacity they're just sharing their holiday snaps and then they're you know pictures of their

01:37:15.420 grandchildren and we decide that's who society is and that's who the left is true but david lammy and

01:37:21.080 prominent left-wing politicians and prominent left-wing activists and prominent left-wing

01:37:25.740 campaigners and prominent left-wing figures all used these words and threw them around

01:37:30.920 deeply irresponsibly in my opinion and now we have lost the language to describe the things that are

01:37:36.580 happening well that may be the case i'm not i'm not suggesting that people should have called people

01:37:43.700 nazis who were in fact uh who they felt a vociferous disagreement with or were perhaps in my opinion

01:37:51.860 taking steps towards the space we're in now but i don't think you can blame that for people if i hear

01:38:00.800 somebody described as a as a nazi it doesn't make me go i'll show you what a real nazi is nobody

01:38:06.460 becomes a real nazi who wasn't no no i understand you're right you're right who wasn't seething with

01:38:12.120 those thoughts that's not my argument i'm not saying we've created nazis i'm saying we now can no longer

01:38:16.720 call out nazis for being nazis because the word nazi no longer has the meaning that it did because

01:38:22.500 it got eroded that's what i'm saying but it sounds like you agree which is fine and that's why i picked

01:38:26.940 up on the far right point because i don't think donald trump is far right i just don't the guy was

01:38:32.020 a democrat he's if you look at his policies some of which i like and some which i don't like

01:38:36.420 on the scale on the broad scale of it he's a pretty moderate center right guy i don't think

01:38:42.080 donald trump has any ideology except more power and glory for donald trump i don't think i think we

01:38:48.220 you we impose we impose far more intellectual rigor on that man than then there's just nothing there

01:38:57.720 except more for me more elon musk is the same it's just more for me more money for me how could anyone

01:39:02.920 need that many more billions and still want more billions i think it's about money and take a

01:39:07.140 chainsaw no but it's about what money represents which is i'm the best i'm the biggest i'm the most

01:39:11.040 powerful take a chainsaw like lol i'm going to cut all the literacy programs i mean when you have

01:39:17.100 that much about what like one thing that i think does point to fascism is who is elon musk why is

01:39:26.660 he there why is he making these why is he making these it wasn't making any recommendations like this

01:39:31.200 is well the steel man argument would be that he is a very very very successful businessman who knows

01:39:37.040 how to run and create things very but an unelected man who is it's pretty normal for governments to

01:39:42.960 bring in business people to run certain things sure but there's certain things and there's this is my

01:39:48.300 right hand dr evil there's certain things and there's what's going on now and i i haven't met

01:39:52.440 anyone on any side of the political divide and i am a pretty um i'm a pretty um i talk to lots of

01:39:59.860 people from lots of you know i i'm open to all discussions i'm here today um i haven't met anyone

01:40:08.460 who's not scared of elon musk who isn't going oh my god that guy's unhinged that guy is uh that guy is

01:40:15.400 shouldn't be in the position of power that he's in he's he's making fast decisions about things he

01:40:22.720 doesn't understand and the economy is an ecosystem and you can't just go we'll cut every community center 0.98

01:40:29.660 in america because the government aren't funding that shit and they're not understand but the 0.99

01:40:33.820 corner shop around the corner where the kids go and buy their coke is and they're they're you know 0.99

01:40:39.380 their sandwich is now going to go out of business and the lady who lives across the road who does 0.99

01:40:45.520 the manicures and so on that where the mums come when the kids are in the community center is going

01:40:50.000 to go out of business it what are they doing what are they doing i think everyone i know is looking

01:40:55.140 at that and going this isn't wise and this is insane and this is really going to cause uh an

01:41:02.800 an terrible a terrible collapse of the economy and i don't know what an unelected person is doing

01:41:09.240 at this right hand in the white house now apparently in charge of everything um and the the way the wind

01:41:16.000 is blowing towards queer rights towards women's rights is it's is scary women are dying in states

01:41:23.680 where abortions are banned or now are virtually inaccessible they're dying and women coming in

01:41:29.600 i've talked to doctors about this women are coming in going i'm miscarrying please can you 0.99

01:41:34.540 and their doctors are saying we cannot do anything until it is life-threatening and if we do it we have

01:41:40.460 to sit there and watch and wait till the point of life-threatening or we can lose our medical license

01:41:44.600 and we can go to jail and that's a very very real fear for these doctors doctors are leaving the state

01:41:49.180 because they're like i can't do my job anymore i don't want to watch women die and watch women bleed 0.98

01:41:53.320 out and or have to prove in court she would have died so women are already dying in america and that's 1.00

01:42:02.520 this is why i would never say i was anti-woke because to me sometimes people what people lump into wokeness

01:42:10.200 is the concern that people have when people who are not they don't have representation in the big

01:42:19.140 buildings that count for people like them they don't have anyone in there going but people like

01:42:24.280 me are dying and that to me is why the word woke is misused to sort of like oh well somebody criticized

01:42:32.200 me because i forgot jenny's pronouns is not the same as this is you know i mean obviously use jenny's

01:42:41.280 pronouns what's costing you but but it's not the same as we don't need to worry about women dying on

01:42:46.540 tables of miscarriages because they're not allowed to have an abortion i've never heard anyone

01:42:50.860 make that argument you know but that's what i'm saying i'm anti-woke because i want to prevent

01:42:56.120 people from having an abortion but it's just people do categorize it people do categorize it all

01:43:01.820 the same thing it's all your kind your kind of values when people say to me that i'm woke it's

01:43:06.340 like you care about these things the main things feminist feminism should be caring about is are 1.00

01:43:12.820 are people's lives appreciably worse or appreciably better are people is there unfairness that's what

01:43:20.320 feminism should be about is that can there be justice where there is unfairness agreed agreed i think

01:43:25.640 what you when you're talking about how people categorize wokeness i think that's people who don't

01:43:30.600 actually understand what it means to be woke i think that's people who just have a very surface

01:43:35.360 level analysis of it and your definition is going to be different from mine i mean i i anyway let's

01:43:41.360 get off the topic of what because what we're doing is nuance of a word and that's what we're criticizing

01:43:44.560 other people for that's not the problem the problem is we have two ways of looking at the world and then a

01:43:51.080 million ways in between yeah and and we are reducing and reducing and reducing to them and us and we need to

01:43:58.520 understand we are the human race and our world is getting hotter my friend's house burnt down in

01:44:04.800 la my i've got friends in a cyclone in australia at the moment the world is getting worse in so many

01:44:11.200 different ways that we are at risk of war in europe we need to get on our own team and our own team is

01:44:17.340 humanity i also think as well deborah and we talk about this a lot on the show i think it's also people

01:44:23.320 need to show courage i think for for too long we've seen either side go off the deep end and a large

01:44:30.620 part of it is because people don't say we're going off the deep end part of the reason the whatever

01:44:36.900 you want to call that side of the left went off the deep end is because not enough people on the 0.74

01:44:41.960 center left went hang on a minute can we can we just calm down a bit here maybe not all men are trash

01:44:47.500 maybe we don't destroy someone for a joke they made eight years ago this is not the correct way

01:44:53.000 of doing it and it's the same on the right we need the people in the center which i see you as broadly

01:44:59.140 being center left us wherever we may identify as being we need to actually be able to hold that center

01:45:07.240 i'm pretty hard left that's what i was going to say i don't think she is

01:45:11.020 i'm pretty hard left but i'm but i also but i've been in a cult and i know when i'm in one

01:45:17.920 yeah and so i i want i want to prioritize what's important by being in the center i mean that not

01:45:24.440 these fringe little movements that i'm happy to be on the left i just want to build bridges to the

01:45:28.860 right and what i don't want to do and at least at least not burn the bridges we already have

01:45:33.600 and i feel like we have we have suffered from burning some of the bridges we already had

01:45:39.260 most people are just cracking on with their day and watching the traitors and getting looking at

01:45:44.860 what's two for one in sainsbury's and worried about where they're you know what their kids

01:45:49.820 doing at school and all of that that's what most people are doing and so for me it's those people

01:45:54.240 in the middle where i want to say hey we we are in danger in this country of losing our abortion rights

01:45:58.580 we are like there are moves here to be anti-abortion moves and bring the weeks down and then bring the

01:46:03.580 weeks down then they bring the weeks down and they want it to be like america and there are

01:46:06.560 there are forces in this country so i want to appeal to people for whom that would matter who

01:46:12.960 are not politically activated right at the moment because they're just cracking on with their lives

01:46:18.900 and they've never had the time or the you know the you know it hasn't been a priority that's who i

01:46:26.020 think we should be talking to and i think we need to be building bridges and i think if we if we want

01:46:30.620 a fairer world for people who are gender non-conforming for gay people for women who do

01:46:36.700 have different needs then we have to start building bridges to people who are in the middle and not

01:46:43.320 immediately scold them because they've come online and said something with the wrong turn of phrase

01:46:47.520 well and i think we need to be really figuring out how to build bridges to people on the on the

01:46:52.920 rights that are reachable well if you want to do that then i i have one suggestion for you based on

01:46:57.800 what you've just said which is i think the one thing that you will never reach people anywhere

01:47:02.960 outside the hard left with is the idea that we want to build a fairer world for people from this

01:47:07.660 community or this community or that community if you want to reach people across the political

01:47:11.640 spectrum should be talking about a fairer world for everybody and this is the problem that the left

01:47:16.700 has made over the last 10 years in particular which is this obsession with identity it's incredibly

01:47:22.940 divisive because anyone who listens to what you've just said what they will hear is you want

01:47:27.400 a better world for these subsets of the population okay well i'm not one of the subsets of these

01:47:32.920 subsets for the population what does that mean for me and they might and i don't know reasonably

01:47:37.680 unreasonably hold on assume from that that what you want is to take something away from them and give

01:47:44.000 it to these people that's what it sounds like um and this divisiveness along racial lines sexual lines

01:47:50.120 it's just it's not going to bring people together it's it's the reason i'm against identity politics

01:47:55.480 it's not because i want whatever my identity is to be well protected it's because i know that when

01:48:00.680 people disappear down these down these rabbit holes and only care about this group and this group and

01:48:06.160 this group that's when everybody suffers doesn't have to be only but but can you imagine a world

01:48:11.580 in which gay people have the rights that they do in this country now that you agree with where gay 0.92

01:48:18.160 people didn't get up and fight and say we don't have any rights and we're going to make that our focus

01:48:23.100 when you look at how gay people got rights in this country they had to say sure yeah for now 1.00

01:48:28.540 this is what we're focused on that was identity politics we just didn't call it identity politics

01:48:32.900 we didn't have that name how would they have got them otherwise if they'd been like but also for

01:48:36.260 straight people because straight people had rights fine then you're never going to reach the people 0.84

01:48:41.740 that you're trying to reach what do you mean fine what do you mean fine what do you mean fine

01:48:45.680 how would they have got them whatever you agree with them having them how would they have got them

01:48:49.120 see you're demonstrating and early in the interview exactly the opposite of what you

01:48:53.280 claim you're trying to do which is the moment i say something you don't like you become

01:48:56.860 aggressive and highly emotional aggressive and highly emotional i'm just having a debate with you

01:49:01.600 no i'm showing passion no not especially not at the beginning you weren't but anyway

01:49:05.680 what i'm saying to you is i didn't like one thing that you said in a way that i found unpleasant

01:49:11.700 yes and i did react to that yes but if i don't so you're not reaching anyone who's listening to

01:49:15.860 this conversation by doing that it's my point so you don't know that you don't know who i know i

01:49:20.720 know i know i know i'm pretty well i know it is pretty well i mean can i just let me just finish

01:49:26.280 but but you're asking me to sit here as if it's just entirely intellectual and and talk like this

01:49:31.740 sometimes i'm not asking you to do anything what i'm saying is your claim is you want to reach people

01:49:37.020 and i'm saying to you if you want to reach these people that you're currently probably not reaching

01:49:42.060 here's some thoughts i have about how better to do that but then you what you can't do then is just

01:49:47.620 go i just sit i just push to the side you're an intellectual you have to intellectually i'm not

01:49:54.820 pushing anything to the side i'm saying the method that you are using is not going to be effective

01:50:00.040 for reaching this particular group of people i don't really believe you i think passion is passion

01:50:04.420 is always loved i think people don't want to see people go yes and i think people want to see

01:50:10.500 people go no but how can you say that i'm not against passion i think you're misunderstanding

01:50:13.400 what i enjoy debate i don't find it i don't find it i don't find it off putting it all if i see

01:50:17.820 someone go no but how can you say that as long as they're being good not do i and that's not what

01:50:21.220 i'm saying what i'm saying is you become uh especially hysterical an hysterical woman is that 0.51

01:50:27.440 what you're saying well see you're demonstrating again now you're trying to put words in my mouth

01:50:30.760 you're trying to put me onto a template that already exists which is a man calling you yeah yeah you are

01:50:36.360 but every joke is only half joke as we all know right so you're you are doing the thing that is

01:50:41.620 going to put a lot of people off what i'm saying to you is if you want to reach across the spectrum

01:50:45.840 yeah across the spectrum okay well look let's be honest right you're very good at reaching people

01:50:52.320 on the hard left and you're very good at reaching women and that's why they love your show but a lot

01:50:56.540 of my people will turn in to see this as well and because i'll tell them it's all you're not trying

01:51:00.760 to reach them you already reach them right you claim you might be you want to reach people on

01:51:05.300 either side right that's what you're saying now i think it's fair to say that i'm probably better

01:51:10.200 than you at reaching people who are on the center and center right would that be fair um yes well

01:51:15.980 because you agree with them it's not because i agree with them it's because i articulate arguments

01:51:19.920 that resonate with you seem really pissed off i'm not i'm not i'm not even remotely pissed off i'm just

01:51:25.720 trying to make clarity on this issue right so what i'm saying to you is if you want to reach those

01:51:30.660 people who i know how to reach right so i should agree with you no you shouldn't agree with me i'm

01:51:37.260 just saying the strategy that you are displaying with your behavior is not going to be effective

01:51:42.480 for reaching i i feel like am i am i i don't know francis am i shouting am i swearing or am i just going

01:51:48.520 how can you say that i didn't i didn't say that you were shouting or swearing what is the behavior

01:51:53.380 it's just me leaning forward and going come on now that's not that's not the way you behaved early

01:51:58.500 in the interview anyway well what you said was quite significant it was quite it wasn't it's not

01:52:04.620 that it was offensive it was it scared to me okay so and so i it that that did right that did so

01:52:11.600 anytime i say something that scares you this is how you react whereas if you listen to what i was

01:52:15.440 saying it's actually perfectly logical and reasonable controlling what you're doing now

01:52:19.320 controlling the way that i operate in the interview space where i've done nothing

01:52:22.980 inappropriate i've just debated you most of the time i've agreed with you and i've agreed with you

01:52:28.220 i found masses of agreement and i found with you and where i haven't i may have shown some passion in

01:52:34.180 a debate but this to sort of say now i control your behavior i don't control your behavior remotely

01:52:39.020 you made the claim that you want to reach people on the other side and what i'm saying is this is not

01:52:44.280 a way that's going to work for the following reasons because identity politics is divisive by its

01:52:49.480 very nature that's what i'm saying to you so okay but but then i as i what i pointed out to you yes

01:52:55.060 the gay rights movement succeeded by focusing on gay rights right so i'm asking you how could they 1.00

01:53:00.900 have done it i'm not talking about how they could have done it i'm talking about now but how could

01:53:05.680 they have done it otherwise because if you can't show me any other way then you're just saying

01:53:10.460 it's divisive so sit back and take what you've got i didn't say so what what's the other way what's

01:53:16.380 the other way is what i'm asking you i did tell you what the other way is which is to emphasize as

01:53:21.080 much as possible our shared common humanity that's literally what i did i said we're all going to be on

01:53:25.800 the same side but what i literally say well i want a fairer world for this group and this group

01:53:31.140 but i do i also want a fairer word for men for men i've said okay great i've said that at other

01:53:36.020 points of this interview but there are i have i literally said i don't i i fought actively in my

01:53:42.760 feminist community against the men but i have argued on national radio many times that women

01:53:49.620 and children first is what an odd rule and what it means is if i'm in a rescue situation and i'm in

01:53:59.040 a dinghy and uh out in the ocean and there's a 19 year old young man who is got his whole life ahead

01:54:07.800 of him and is probably weighs less than me and is about i'm not going to open up another branch men

01:54:13.420 and women women and their children first is exactly the right policy anyway uh let's move on to 1.00

01:54:17.540 substack i mean say your final thing and then we'll move on to substack where we'll continue the

01:54:23.680 conversation is he always i am always like this it's very controlling um yeah it's very controlling

01:54:30.500 um no i produces laughing i um if if if if i'm if i'm if i'm if i am out in the ocean i hope i would

01:54:39.520 get out of the boat and say look you're 19 you you stay in the boat i'll drown okay but it's hard to

01:54:46.680 get out of a boat of privilege and society tells me that that's my right i don't have any children why

01:54:51.140 am i in the boat why isn't he in the boat i don't understand it but it's hard to get out of a boat

01:54:55.160 of privilege and it's hard for men to get out of their boats of privilege or even see them so there

01:55:01.200 are spaces in which i argue for men's rights all the time men's rights activists always think women

01:55:06.280 feminists don't do that i do i argue for men's rights all the time where i see that there's a 1.00

01:55:10.420 disparity and so i i am not someone who's going i'm only i'm only fighting for this i'm only fighting

01:55:17.020 for that but if you go onto the street and say more for everyone and you don't say gay people

01:55:21.580 can't get married straight people can it's never going to happen the only reason we have gay rights 0.97

01:55:26.720 in this country is because somebody got out and fought for them on a specific platform so there is

01:55:32.340 also room for specific platforms it is just not there's just there's just not a helpful way forward

01:55:40.460 by going we only feel for each other and everyone else is dehumanized

01:55:45.200 the argument with gay rights is different because what gay people wanted was equal rights with

01:55:51.180 everybody and all you have to say today is i want equal rights for everybody you don't have to talk

01:55:55.760 about this community and that community you that's that that implies that all because gay people can 1.00

01:56:02.040 get married all other rights are sorted no but if there is legal discrimination let's point it out

01:56:08.280 and fix it okay so that's what feminism is doing abortion in america okay and fight fighting to keep 1.00

01:56:14.300 our reproductive rights abortion is never a case of equal rights because it's highly specific to one

01:56:20.300 sex although as you say everything is a binary but um the it doesn't work that way okay because

01:56:28.680 it's different because men can't have children right so therefore we need to fight for a community

01:56:34.640 and that community has an identity you talk about that the more you push away everyone else which

01:56:39.300 is the point i made okay so we can't fight for abortion rights i didn't say you can't i said the

01:56:43.880 messaging ought to be as much as possible abortion is a different issue but on all the other issues that

01:56:49.720 you're talking about this marginalized community that marginalized community etc the focus ought to be

01:56:55.840 on the fact that we want everyone to have equal opportunities and equal rights sure and where where it is a

01:57:01.220 where it is a problem that all human being climate change that's all human beings would benefit from

01:57:07.120 trying collectively to fix that problem right um but abortion is specifically about women and people

01:57:16.780 of minority genders so there are times when we do have to advocate yes but but there are times when

01:57:21.640 we don't and we have been dei for example is a perfect example of this right when you push people

01:57:27.420 onto we started this conversation right with this very thing where you push people into certain

01:57:32.660 positions to increase their representation often inaccurately you make the point about london it's

01:57:38.060 true uh you know bbc in the 1980s did not look like london today but bbc today doesn't look like hastings

01:57:45.260 today either right so when we talk about representations it's much more complicated than people who live in big

01:57:50.260 cities who have a particular vision of it um and my point is the more we emphasize our shared humanity

01:57:55.700 and the need for everyone to have equal opportunity the less divisive things become the more we focus

01:58:00.580 on individual communities the more divisive things become and that's just a fact you you may say that

01:58:05.780 you need to fight for this group i may agree with you it doesn't change the fact that it's divisive

01:58:09.480 um i feel very strongly that everything is not there we're not there yet we're not at a point when

01:58:18.740 where life is so equal we can just say oh i'm not human beings for the win i feel like there are still

01:58:25.140 many many things to be fought for and a lot we've lost stuff that we had you know you look at what's

01:58:29.460 happening in america they're losing stuff hand over fist right now and so and to me dei was only ever

01:58:38.080 about trying to right historical wrongs and i feel like the gutting of it is really about supremacy for

01:58:47.600 people like musk and trump i don't really think it's anything to do with the fact that we've overstepped

01:58:52.140 if we'd overstepped the representation would be very very very different than it how it is we

01:58:57.860 haven't overstepped and we're not talking about the casting of david copperfield on itv1 we're

01:59:02.000 literally talking about who's in the house of commons who's in who's in the who's in the who's in the

01:59:06.020 senate so i would i would argue against you want to enter politics fine but it's just it's divisive

01:59:12.480 i i mean you say things so categorically like it is and then but it's what everyone has to stop

01:59:20.140 talking no you don't have to stop talking i'm just saying it's the logical conclusion of the

01:59:24.640 thing that you're saying you think dei is about writing historical wrongs so you want dei you

01:59:30.740 think that certain communities don't have equal rights and you want to focus narrowly on those

01:59:35.420 communities to bring them up to whichever position you think that they should be in you want identity

01:59:40.580 politics that's fine but you have to acknowledge that it's divisive could it not be more nuanced than

01:59:46.160 that though that's what i was saying at the beginning it's it's not it's not this or that

01:59:49.300 it's it's a big crunchy squishy huge thing where we need this but this can cause this so then we try

01:59:56.980 and do that we try and do that it's you're very binary you're very it is or it isn't and it is and

02:00:02.120 there it is because some things are or they aren't like male and female and i i am going to go out on a

02:00:07.760 large limb and say there are lots of things that are very nuanced that that there are very nuanced and

02:00:12.720 one of those is people's people's gender identities and one of those things is how we manage to fight

02:00:19.860 for people like the history of gay rights how people fight and still manage to the hard work of creating

02:00:28.640 acceptance not just civil rights in their communities it's a it's a hard long fight and

02:00:35.640 the straight community has not really done a lot the gay community has done most of the work 0.89

02:00:41.580 to make sure there's an integration so that now most people in this country go yeah paul and jack

02:00:48.980 next door they're really nice um jenny's teachers are lesbian and it's no big deal that was a big old 1.00

02:00:54.780 hard fight and i just don't think we can minimize it by going it's divisive stop talking it's it wasn't

02:01:00.660 divisive in the end it brought a lot more humanity and and harmony to to this country and now you've got

02:01:07.340 donald trump and elon musk so you're blaming you're i'm saying we talked about this with andrew tate we

02:01:14.440 talked about this with other things progressive overreach is why donald trump is in power so you

02:01:18.020 would call gay marriage no not at all i'm saying all the things that happened with see again you keep

02:01:23.860 putting words in my mouth so that you can make me sound like i've said something offensive no no i'm

02:01:27.940 not saying you've said anything offensive yes i'm trying to i interrogate what you're saying

02:01:31.880 yes and i already sometimes you do a bit of a leap where you go yeah sorry so this and i'm like oh

02:01:37.060 hold on that's yes way over there the donald donald trump was elected effectively do you know what his

02:01:42.720 most effective campaign ad was uh i think it was um the trans it was it was the caramelist for them

02:01:49.460 donald president trump's donald trump was elected because people are propaganda it is propaganda

02:01:54.660 most people don't know an out trans person hold on a second most people don't know a trans person

02:01:57.320 that was propaganda that's that's exactly what i was saying before about the far religious right and

02:02:01.840 heritage foundation and project 25 most people in america reacted to that ad in a very powerful way

02:02:08.880 which is why it was the most powerful ad right the reason that it's happening the reason that donald

02:02:14.060 trump is in power is that many many people have had enough of this identity politics have had enough

02:02:19.900 of the obsession with victim who have had enough about all of this stuff that you are advocating for

02:02:25.660 more of and my point to you is if you carry on doing what you've been doing you're going to keep

02:02:31.000 getting the results you've been getting it's as simple as that now i don't like much of the over

02:02:36.580 correction that we're about to experience and i've been predicting for many years and opposing the

02:02:41.380 woke left for this very reason that this was inevitable i i think there's something more sinister

02:02:46.420 going on and which i've written about in my book and i did a lot of research i was quite surprised

02:02:50.400 by what i found actually um overall what i'm saying in my book is we're all in a cult whether

02:02:57.860 we're on the left or the right we've got to break out of it we do need to understand that we are being

02:03:03.660 asked to empathize more and more with fewer and fewer people that lack that erosion of our empathy is a

02:03:09.880 lack of is an erosion of our humanity we need to rejig the rethink the cancellation of the past and

02:03:17.780 instead figure out what we can learn from flawed figures in the past who are never going to agree

02:03:22.100 with us they're in the past i've tried to make a very human um uh i've tried to have a very human

02:03:30.880 look at gender non-conformity and try and make some new arguments that i think haven't been made before

02:03:35.740 um i am very interested in as a comedian in in um uh the freedom of speech in comedy and i do want

02:03:45.900 freedom of speech i don't want censorship but i am also interested in how audiences do often know

02:03:52.500 the difference between the punchline of the joke and the point of the joke and i am broadly arguing

02:03:59.840 that cancel culture has needs to needs to change and um and then i've got a chapter about what we

02:04:06.020 can do about it all um it is a i suppose a book from the progressive left that says we're doing a

02:04:14.140 lot of things wrong and we need to do a lot of things right i hope you're uh we need a lot of

02:04:18.320 things better great i hope your listeners like it all right well thanks for coming on uh should we do

02:04:25.780 like i we've has this been two hours yeah it's flown by but that's because there's been a lot

02:04:32.140 of disagreement so i think we'll just do the final question mate and wrap it up there okay uh deborah

02:04:37.040 we always end the show with the final question which is what's the one thing we're not talking

02:04:40.100 about that we really should be oh what's the one thing we should i i planned something for this and

02:04:46.120 now i think we've already covered it um this happens every interview does it yes yeah um okay the

02:04:52.560 one thing we should be talking about uh that we're not is i think have you watched couples therapy

02:04:59.280 no it's a show about with a new york analyst who's talking to couples and um basically you know romantic

02:05:07.780 couples and i don't know why they've agreed to have their therapy televised but it's absolutely

02:05:12.680 riveting it's fascinating and she always asks uh sort of gets what's underneath that so one of them

02:05:20.500 saying he he's a child he doesn't he i come home and you know the table's covered with stuff and

02:05:27.600 um he's you know been playing with the baby but he hasn't done anything else and why can't he clean

02:05:34.700 the bathroom like a grown-up and then she will go it's what's under that what's the feeling and sort

02:05:40.940 of like well it's it's that i have to do everything and what is that feeling it's that i have no help i'm

02:05:46.340 alone i'm lonely and is there a time in your childhood when you were lonely yes i i my mum

02:05:51.980 left me alone i was a latchkey kid and it will sort of she'll keep going underneath that is what we are

02:05:56.800 not doing like the three of us here today it's like if you push my buttons and i go i lean across

02:06:03.860 the table and go no but how can you say that you immediately go firstly my buttons are pushed like

02:06:09.340 what's this man telling me about the way to communicate and so what's behind that well behind

02:06:14.180 that is i was in a very patriarchal cult where men told me how to do everything i don't want to be

02:06:18.820 told by a man that i'm communicating incorrectly just because i'm leaning across the table and

02:06:21.920 showing some passion and that i need to you know calm down well what's behind that it's the fear that

02:06:27.160 i'm going to be controlled and i was controlled before and i'll never be controlled again and then

02:06:30.620 you get triggered and you go you go um i wasn't particularly triggered well you claim that you're

02:06:36.840 not but there are times when you really get cross no i get cross when people misrepresent what i say

02:06:41.560 that pisses me off and what's underneath that why when why what's that feeling i don't like when

02:06:46.200 people lie about me but okay so but do you think i'm lying or do you think i'm misunderstanding or

02:06:50.840 i i think that in being uh offended or upset by something that i've said you are then lashing out

02:06:58.000 and trying to misrepresent me okay so you think i'm trying to misrepresent you rather than

02:07:02.200 rather than you what you've said has landed with me in a way that i think that's what you've said

02:07:06.800 uh i think that's interesting well the reason for that is is to win an argument the easiest thing

02:07:12.080 to do is to to effectively say that somebody said something else for example like when you said are

02:07:16.980 you being hysterical now no you were partly joking i was joking i was spawning i know but well not

02:07:21.660 quite but part of that part of the the thing there is when you do a joke like that what you're really

02:07:26.960 doing is you're hinting at a stereotype that exists in people's head which is a man dismissing

02:07:31.860 something a woman says because she's being hysterical right so you're trying to push me 0.98

02:07:36.380 into that box that's about me what's going on for you what's going on for me is i don't want to go in

02:07:40.240 that box because all i'm doing is exploring your argument and why do you want to go in the box

02:07:44.040 what's wrong with the box what's what because the box is not representing what i'm actually saying

02:07:49.720 when i'm simply taking but what's the emotion of i don't like being in a box what's what's where's

02:07:55.040 that a box it's the box that you're trying to put me in which is a man who's telling a woman

02:07:59.660 she's wrong because she's being hysterical so so that box which is you don't like things projected

02:08:04.980 upon you basically i don't like people describing me in public in a way that's inaccurate okay but

02:08:09.560 that's a pretty reasonable thing to feel okay so you're not really playing the game which is what's

02:08:13.680 beneath that what's the human thing so my thing is behind that there's you might try and control me

02:08:18.360 that's nothing to do with you right that's me vulnerably going i and if i went below that i'd be

02:08:23.360 like why don't i like being controlled that makes me feel unsafe and why does i why do i feel

02:08:28.480 unsafe that's easy for me so look as a public person yeah what people say about me is what

02:08:33.640 people will then go and believe right so people putting out false narratives about me something

02:08:39.280 that's necessarily something i'm going to be guarded against sure okay so you're not really playing the

02:08:43.620 game because the game is the sort of vulnerability piece so it's sort of like it's it's yes but i'm

02:08:48.800 not going to make something up to pretend to be vulnerable i'm telling you that like what i regard

02:08:53.760 somebody misrepresenting the core of my argument right as something that is dishonest in honest

02:09:00.260 discussion do you understand is it is it clear to you that there were times when i felt you did that

02:09:06.100 to me that i misrepresented your argument or you just misunderstood it and i don't think i have a

02:09:12.000 misrepresented your argument okay i didn't do that that's so interesting to me so when i say something

02:09:16.740 and if you you you take it in your framework sometimes you'll present it back to me yeah and i'll go

02:09:21.880 but that's not what i said or that's not what i meant so when did i misrepresent your argument i

02:09:25.640 thought we're a bunch of times if you watch it give an example um you will you will like the thing

02:09:30.600 about um uh indigenous people well they're only such and such percent they're a tiny percent and i'm

02:09:36.580 like no but that's not what it's about it's not about what the percentage but that's not

02:09:39.460 misrepresenting your argument i don't think you can i don't think you can get there watch the show

02:09:44.240 though i think it'd be really really interesting i don't think you can get to the place that i'm

02:09:47.760 trying to get it's not about going over the arguments it's about how you feel like when

02:09:52.560 you say oh i get really that so that's why i think what we're not really talking about i already

02:09:57.560 answered the question when somebody misrepresents what i'm saying okay i'm naturally not going to

02:10:03.240 like doing okay i didn't try and misrepresent anything i had a feeling of that's not what i said

02:10:08.080 or that's what you meant or that's it was a feeling so i pushed the ball back to you no one was

02:10:12.480 trying to misrepresent you know what it reminds me of we had this guy called um imran imran akmad

02:10:18.580 imran akmad on the show and we talked about online censorship and he made some very good points and

02:10:23.940 we were agreeing for about 90 of the interview yeah and then i said something he didn't like

02:10:29.740 they didn't agree and suddenly the mask came off and he instantly came out as this like

02:10:33.980 not he started calling me names and all this stuff and your sophistry right now

02:10:39.880 is both transparent it's deeply disrespectful and i warn you that most of your listeners will 0.87

02:10:45.580 think themselves actually constantine's being a bit of a dickhead right now and to me i experience

02:10:52.940 that a lot with people who are arguing from the position of high empathy that happens quite a lot

02:10:58.760 where um somebody pretends to be reasonable and they're having an agreement and whatever but the

02:11:03.860 moment i say something that makes them uncomfortable yeah as i said with the indigenous people and us

02:11:08.660 being sophisticated suddenly they show a different side to themselves yeah but that's that's normal

02:11:13.280 and human if somebody says something that that is is sort of feels um what i'm trying to say to you

02:11:22.360 the thing we're not talking about yeah is what's behind all of this and so online when people like

02:11:28.320 you said this you said this you said this you should this you did this you did this you did this i'm

02:11:31.880 right you're left you're in that box i'm in that box i'm an andrew tate fan i'm a this

02:11:35.400 what's behind it all i think is i don't feel safe or i feel hurt or i feel i feel boxed or i feel

02:11:46.880 projected upon too and i think that's what we're not talking about really deep down that's not what

02:11:51.220 we're talking about so i didn't deliberately misinterpret anything you said but it's interesting

02:11:56.580 you thought i did but i didn't i genuinely can tell you this absolute honest place i didn't

02:12:01.420 deliberation is a complicated thing though because sometimes people do things subconsciously

02:12:05.720 sure but consciously i did not misinterpret anything i i heard it and then either i felt

02:12:12.240 like hmm i don't know what territory we're going into here but this doesn't seem great to me or that

02:12:16.660 happened once or all the other times i was sort of like wanted to like passionately engage sure no and

02:12:23.980 i don't respect that i and i know what's if i if i ask those questions of you know i'll ask you

02:12:30.700 francis when you feel upset about you know i don't know what you might categorize as wokeness

02:12:39.900 can you on can you dig down and go what's the uncomfortable feeling oh absolutely yeah what's

02:12:46.880 the feeling for you well i'm half south well my mother's from venezuela i saw the rise of communism

02:12:51.280 blm had the same slogans that chavis's government used the government that means i will never get

02:12:57.920 justice for my grandfather who was murdered i had family members thrown into prison uh leaders of blm

02:13:03.940 did a black power salute with uh maduardo who is the current dictator of venezuela i see i don't i see

02:13:11.740 that side of wokeness as akin to socialism slash communism which is what destroyed my country and means

02:13:19.580 that my family now live in constant fear so you feel like this is a very personal geopolitical

02:13:27.480 experiential fear yeah that you live with so you may see other things and uh link them together

02:13:36.820 in a way that you think is human and understandable and that i think there's a there's a political logic

02:13:43.920 behind that if you see the words abolish capitalism for example which was blm slogan i've actually seen

02:13:49.100 capitalism being abolished i've seen people being i've seen people be shot at during protests by

02:13:56.760 people using the same slogans i've seen jeremy corbyn openly support chavis's government i have a

02:14:02.780 very visceral reaction to that so it's very interesting so i mean this is too long but um but i think it's

02:14:11.460 interesting do you think do you see now that capitalism unregulated capitalism has gone too

02:14:17.820 far and it's not i think you do need to regulate capitalism absolutely there needs to be checks and

02:14:21.760 balances of course there is there needs to be a monopolies commission to make sure that there's

02:14:24.840 just not one company in charge of everything but do you fear what's happening with unregulated

02:14:29.300 capitalism around the world now yeah of course i do so it's do you think that blm could be having 0.97

02:14:33.860 a response to unregulated capitalism no i think blm are communists and they want to impose a

02:14:39.020 communist order that's why they say abolish capitalism they don't want to regulate capitalism

02:14:44.280 the this the the meaning lies in the words abolish capitalism if you say if you say something it's

02:14:51.420 like if i say uh i believe the white race is superior i will take you at your face value you

02:14:58.180 should take me at my face value when i say that just like when they say abolish capitalism which to me

02:15:03.080 is communism and when they go on and take photos themselves with eduardo maduro a dictator who has

02:15:10.500 effectively destroyed my mother's country and has imprisoned members of my family i take people at 0.61

02:15:16.320 their face value when they say such things this might be a whole other podcast i think well for me

02:15:22.840 it's exactly the same i mean uh we were talking about one specific incident my my grandmother was born

02:15:28.220 in a gulag and what's more i'm a first generation immigrant to this country so when i see all this

02:15:32.880 racial divisiveness being stood up i i think it's quite natural that i would be concerned about it

02:15:37.820 when you antagonize people along racial lines we know what happens if you actually read history you

02:15:43.420 know what happens which is when people are encouraged to go retreat into their identity boxes

02:15:49.080 they see each other as other and then you begin to have conflict it's it's very difficult though for

02:15:56.480 black people in america who are suffering from a different level of state violence and have you

02:16:06.340 know we it's only a few decades ago that the civil rights movement happened and that there were hoses 0.99

02:16:11.040 and dogs turned on them and they were up the back of a bus and not allowed to go to the same schools

02:16:15.380 and not enough has been done to address that so inevitably inevitably there will be uprisings

02:16:23.520 because they're still you know huge communities of black people are still stuck in socioeconomic

02:16:28.640 boxes so can i push but can i push back against that no i've not pushed back against that i agree

02:16:34.120 with what you're saying but that doesn't mean an organization like blm is a force for good and i'll

02:16:38.480 give you an example chavis's government was elected in 1999 due to the fact that society was

02:16:44.560 desperately unequal white people or what the version of whiteness in venezuela which is different to our

02:16:49.880 whiteness but anyway uh were in charge there was a whole swathe of people who felt they didn't have

02:16:55.140 access to resources society was deeply unequal unfair if you were born in what is called los 0.80

02:17:00.980 ranchos the ghettos you're going to die there all perfectly valid criticisms he came to power 1.00

02:17:08.360 in saying things like we're going to abolish capitalism and people thought that it was going

02:17:13.040 to be better for them it wasn't it just made everything in far far worse which is what communism

02:17:18.760 does just because people have been marginalized and they have concerns and they want better outcomes

02:17:25.900 for them all perfectly natural it doesn't mean that an organization that purports to represent them

02:17:32.080 is in any way good or noble

02:17:33.760 is my argument i would suggest though if unless that the powers that be are going to create

02:17:41.920 fairness justice space and allow socioeconomic growth and prosperity amongst those communities

02:17:51.120 there will always continue to be uprising do you not see that that's exactly what the far right is

02:17:55.260 saying that's exactly what they're saying i word for word you cannot word for word is what they're

02:18:01.340 saying you you literally cannot keep people suppressed without those people that's why they're voting for

02:18:08.980 trump and that's why they follow andrew yeah i feel like that there is a different um there is a

02:18:15.540 different sort of uh marginalization for black people in america because of the not that long

02:18:22.380 ago history of slavery definitely of course you can't enslave people bring them there strip them 0.51

02:18:27.440 everything strip them of their names and then never let them get ahead and then you know in the 60s

02:18:33.520 we all know what happened this is not when the 60s is living memory definitely it's not that long ago

02:18:38.040 so what do you what do you what are you suggesting those people do what i'm suggesting is martin luther

02:18:44.060 king was right yeah well martin luther king was a complicated figure we don't have time to get

02:18:48.100 into everything i'm not saying he was right about his relations with women i'm saying he was right 1.00

02:18:51.680 about i'm not saying the core message of what he was saying which is he dreamt of a place where

02:18:57.360 everybody would be treated on the show but that's not all he said he also said that the silence

02:19:01.760 of the moderate white was uh in some ways worse than the i don't know the exact quotes i shouldn't

02:19:08.060 say it but is you know the the silence the moderate white going everything's fine now you've got what

02:19:12.420 you've got you've got that's not what people are saying when francis says he has problems with blm

02:19:17.660 he's not saying everything is fine he's saying blm is not a constructive force and it isn't and it 0.72

02:19:23.000 wasn't okay you're and it isn't and it wasn't that's not debate you can't just say isn't wasn't that's

02:19:28.880 not debate that's not debate that's not debate it's my opinion yeah in my opinion and in francis

02:19:33.040 opinion that's great isn't and it wasn't that really helps me when you say it's my opinion

02:19:36.420 okay because when you say it isn't and it wasn't the i'm making a truth claim absolutely yeah and i

02:19:42.600 feel like your truth claims close down debate so like it makes you're free to say you don't agree

02:19:49.300 you just did but i do and then you go it isn't and it wasn't and that's it's slightly um

02:19:55.320 it's a it feels against the intellectual ethos of this show how so because you just go it isn't

02:20:01.800 and it wasn't and it's not like well of course there are some ways in which and you can say

02:20:07.940 whatever you want the the intellectual ethos of this show since it's our show i can tell you what

02:20:12.160 it is is you present a set of ideas yeah we interrogate those ideas we present a set of ideas you

02:20:21.100 interrogate those ideas and we all and our viewers most importantly come away with a better

02:20:25.900 understanding of what you think and what i think and it's not necessarily to create agreement between

02:20:30.360 you and i i don't think it's possible what i think is possible is to expose my argument in all its

02:20:35.920 falsity and accuracy and to expose your argument and that's why i'm making truth claims in the in the

02:20:41.480 way that i invite you to make your truth claims okay well thanks for the truth claim opportunity

02:20:46.780 i've enjoyed it kind of um yeah well it's hard isn't it in a book you can be so nuanced and rigorous

02:20:57.300 and you can argue both sides and then as soon as you're out freewheeling you're like hold on but i

02:21:01.600 didn't say that and now i haven't got time and now we've moved past the argument so you've had more

02:21:05.640 time than any guest we've ever had on the show well that's very kind um it's more it's i know

02:21:11.600 it's my fault because i've written a book called six conversations for scared to have and there's

02:21:14.700 six conversations and most people come with a book with one conversation that's that that's what

02:21:19.380 they're talking about so i'm very sorry that i've taken up so much time and uh i hope that there's

02:21:24.240 absolutely no need to be sorry they might have tuned out by no no no no if they have they're not

02:21:29.200 hearing your apologies so you're fine it's true yeah and if we wanted it to stop we would have

02:21:33.680 stopped it and it was good it was good it was yeah it was the intention was not to harangue you

02:21:39.280 about stuff but what we do is we try to interrogate ideas and sometimes people interpret that as them

02:21:45.620 being interrogated that's not absolutely not the intention um so on blm since we you don't agree

02:21:54.980 are we done now or is this a post thing are we still recording well i think we should wrap it up

02:22:00.120 yeah i think we should wrap it up i think i think we've all okay i think we've i think we've covered

02:22:04.440 i think otherwise you end up going into this other whole big subject and i think we've both

02:22:08.020 said something about blm my that was my feeling i think yeah that's absolutely fine that's fine

02:22:12.600 we're done we're done um do you need to say goodbye or anything no no okay we'll leave it there

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TRIGGERnometry - April 30, 2025

Triggernometry Meets Guilty Feminist

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