TRIGGERnometry - October 11, 2023


Truss Advisor： ＂We Squandered a Huge Opportunity＂ (Colin Bloom)

Topics
backbone politicians faith literacy in gov places of worship government relationship forced marriage make-believers Sikh extremism within community black nationalist groups in prisons
Hosted by
Francis Foster Konstantin Kisin
Mentioned
Boris Sikh Colin Bloom Brexit Liz Truss David Cameron Theresa May Corbyn Rishi Francis Constantine George Osborne Ronald Reagan Andrew Capasso Lee Anderson Trudeau Macron Alcoholics Anonymous Danny Alexander Kwasi Kwarteng Cinder Ardern and 28 more
The State of the World Economy with Liam Halligan The Truth About Race Relations in the UK - Rakib Ehsan

Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 10 minutes

Words per minute

170.79

Word count

12,121

Sentence count

896

Harmful content

Misogyny

7

sentences flagged

Toxicity

40

sentences flagged

Hate speech

27

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode of Trigonometry, Francis and Constantine talk to Colin Bloom, a recently retired government advisor and author of The Bloom Review. Colin talks about his time in government, including his time working for the Prime Minister, Liz Truss.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.580 Liz Truss, whether people like her or not, was offering a different set of ideas about 1.00
00:00:05.620 how the country should be run, and she actually attempted to put them in place.
00:00:11.520 Why was she not able to actually stay in power long enough to even see some of those ideas
00:00:16.880 being implemented?
00:00:18.120 There is a social and economic orthodoxy which exists.
00:00:22.000 If a government was to dare go against it, they would be closed down pretty quick.
00:00:27.780 But it did feel a bit strange that, you know, we were up against the White House,
00:00:32.640 we were up against the World Bank, the IMF, the Bank of England, the opposition.
00:00:38.160 There was a huge opposition to everything that she was doing.
00:00:43.580 You know, when you see this lack of leadership, the lack of spine that we have across all parties,
00:00:50.080 you've got to blame the candidates to Parliament.
00:00:51.640 You know, where are they finding these people?
00:00:52.920 A third of our parliamentarians are unemployable.
00:00:55.520 You know, where do we find them?
00:00:59.640 You know, they couldn't run a bath half of them.
00:01:11.320 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.
00:01:14.000 I'm Francis Foster.
00:01:15.240 I'm Constantine Kissinger.
00:01:16.400 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.
00:01:21.520 Our fantastic guest today is a recently retired government advisor, so you can be honest,
00:01:26.380 and the author of the Bloom Review.
00:01:28.120 Colin Bloom, welcome to Trigonometry.
00:01:29.520 Thank you for having me.
00:01:30.280 I will say that the review you are the author of, you've got here, you worked on it for four
00:01:34.180 years as a review to faith in the UK.
00:01:37.000 Very interesting subject, some difficult and also interesting questions within that.
00:01:40.980 And, of course, you were most recently an advisor to OneList Trust.
00:01:46.780 So we'll talk about all of that.
00:01:48.520 But before we do, tell everybody a little bit more about your background.
00:01:52.120 How are you, where you are?
00:01:53.080 What's been your journey through life?
00:01:54.800 Thank you.
00:01:55.420 Fantastic to be on the show.
00:01:56.920 And I've been listening to Trigonometry since, I think, the very, very beginning.
00:02:02.600 Black Curtain Room?
00:02:03.900 Yeah, I remember.
00:02:04.720 I mean, I remember, I think, probably 50 episodes ago, something like that.
00:02:09.120 I remember when this was built.
00:02:10.760 So, you know, and congratulations on all the amazing progress that you've made in this,
00:02:16.680 with the podcast.
00:02:18.400 So, a bit of background to me.
00:02:20.720 I spent some time in industry.
00:02:22.820 I spent some time working in the not-for-profit sector.
00:02:24.820 But probably the best part of my life, the most productive part of my life,
00:02:28.900 has been in politics.
00:02:30.900 And I was International Secretary for the Conservative Party,
00:02:34.580 Director of the Conservative Party.
00:02:36.000 I ran the Conservative Christian Fellowship for a number of years.
00:02:41.420 Boris appointed me to be the government's faith advisor in 2019.
00:02:44.900 I wrote this report.
00:02:46.420 And then last year, I worked for Prime Minister Truss for all of seven weeks.
00:02:52.620 And then the report came out earlier this year.
00:02:56.180 And then, you know, I've now taken a step back and will be focusing on other things.
00:03:01.620 And obviously, I mean, look at me.
00:03:02.700 I'm far too young to retire.
00:03:04.000 So, yes, I have retired from government.
00:03:05.760 But I've not retired from life.
00:03:10.020 That's really good to hear.
00:03:11.500 We'll do things, I suppose, in that order.
00:03:13.820 We'll come to the report and faith later.
00:03:15.980 I think a really important subject, actually.
00:03:18.380 But before we do, you mentioned the seven weeks of the Liz Truss Premiership.
00:03:23.800 And I'll ask you the question that I think everybody wants to know,
00:03:26.400 which is what happened?
00:03:28.200 Well, it was fairly chaotic.
00:03:30.640 I mean, that's not a, you know, I won't be breaking any secrets there.
00:03:37.620 Look, and on a personal level, I like Liz. 0.81
00:03:39.500 I've got, you know, I'm not going to say a bad word about her.
00:03:42.820 I think she's a, you know, very decent, very kind person.
00:03:49.580 I would consider her a friend.
00:03:52.340 The time that she had, remember, it came at the end of a very gruelling two months of campaigning for who was going to get the leadership of the Conservative Party.
00:04:07.440 That came after all of the chaos of, is Boris going to resign?
00:04:12.860 Is he not going to resign?
00:04:13.980 You know, is he going to stay in office?
00:04:16.220 What's going to happen to the Boris administration?
00:04:19.300 And that came after all of the COVID and the, you know, and we've had, so it wouldn't be fair to say that just those seven weeks were chaos.
00:04:29.120 I mean, I've been around since 2010, working either in CCHQ or in number 10 or elsewhere.
00:04:37.400 It's been chaos pretty much since 2015.
00:04:40.760 I mean, I would say that when, no, 2016 was when Brexit happened.
00:04:46.120 And things were fairly well ordered and pretty well run then.
00:04:50.620 After Brexit, when Theresa May came in and then Boris came in and then COVID and then Liz and then Rishi, that was chaos.
00:05:00.300 I mean, it was literally just fighting fires one day to the next.
00:05:05.720 And I think in the future, when the history books are written, we will look back and just, as certainly I'm a, you know, I'm a centre-right, conservative, free market capitalist.
00:05:17.580 You know, I mean, that's kind of, I'm not, I'm not ashamed of that.
00:05:21.580 We will look back and go, we squandered, not just a huge majority since 2017 after that election, but we squandered the opportunity to govern, I think, really well since 2016.
00:05:34.800 But what happened with Liz Truss specifically, the reason I ask is, I think on the day that she was elected, Lord Frost was sitting in the chair that you're sitting in.
00:05:44.980 And do you remember that he came in all chipper, he was excited and we were excited because, you know, any change is exciting.
00:05:51.300 And also Liz Truss, whatever, whether people like her or not, was offering a different set of ideas about how the country should be run. 1.00
00:05:59.260 And she actually attempted to put them in place.
00:06:02.440 Why was she not able to actually stay in power long enough to even see some of those ideas being implemented?
00:06:09.660 Well, I mean, look, my take on it is that in August of last year, of 2022, I think it was fairly obvious that she was going to win the leadership election.
00:06:21.320 So, you know, those of us that were working on her campaign could see that, you know, the numbers were very strong.
00:06:26.880 And as it turns out, you know, she won reasonably convincingly.
00:06:33.800 Now, that vote was only with the conservative members.
00:06:38.240 So there was a campaign that, you know, Rishi's team were going up and down the country trying to get conservative members to vote for Rishi.
00:06:48.560 And Liz's team were doing the same.
00:06:51.120 And the numbers were pretty healthy for Liz.
00:06:55.140 So, you know, I suspect, as I don't know for sure, but I suspect they knew the gig was up when we did.
00:07:04.080 That was sometime in August. So they went through the motions and said, OK, you know, yes, they, you know, they drove to the line and they fought to win.
00:07:14.280 You know, they thought that they were they had to put in a good showing, but they probably knew it was a death march from the beginning of August.
00:07:21.860 Then September comes. The announcement is made. Liz wins. 0.97
00:07:26.060 She goes to see the Queen, I think, on the was it the 5th or the 6th of September?
00:07:31.820 I think the Queen dies. I think was it the 8th of September?
00:07:35.620 And then we have 10 days of not very much.
00:07:40.100 And then chaos, even more chaos than we've ever had before.
00:07:44.780 And I don't necessarily blame Liz for that.
00:07:46.720 Those will probably get me into trouble with some of, you know, my friends who don't agree with me on this.
00:07:51.300 But I think I think it was inevitable when you've got somebody who is stepping outside of both the economic and social orthodoxy that is was expected of her.
00:08:04.500 And I make this point, you know, if you were to take all of the G7 leaders of Macron, Trudeau, Biden, Schultz, Albanese in Australia, which is Cinder Ardern, as it was in New Zealand.
00:08:21.120 There's not any real difference in either social policy or economic policy between any of them.
00:08:26.940 And this and they're all, by the way, on on the centre left.
00:08:29.800 So here you've got a centre right member of the G7 who's saying, no, we're going to, you know, we're going to cut spending.
00:08:36.820 We're going to lower taxes. We're going to grow the economy.
00:08:39.700 We've got to break with the economic orthodoxy.
00:08:42.200 And I'm no economist, but I mean, it sounded good, you know, that actually we're here.
00:08:47.160 We can't carry on printing money.
00:08:48.680 We've got to, you know, we've got to do something different because I think as everybody accepts,
00:08:55.780 there is an economic tsunami which is about to hit the West, which we're, you know, which we're not ready for.
00:09:02.620 And so, you know, that would have upset some pretty powerful people around the world and locally, of course.
00:09:12.740 One second, Colin. Who are these pretty powerful people?
00:09:15.260 Sorry to interrupt, because there'll be people of a conspiratorial nature who say, well, this is the World Economic Forum.
00:09:20.540 There'll be people, you know, talking about shadowy figures.
00:09:23.420 I mean, who are we actually talking about?
00:09:25.680 Well, look, there are shadowy figures everywhere, even in the comedy circuit.
00:09:30.480 Thank you for addressing that, have you?
00:09:32.780 But let's not pretend that, you know, that shadowy figures don't exist.
00:09:36.380 Yes.
00:09:37.200 It's not a conspiratorial thing to say that there are shadowy figures.
00:09:42.200 There are shadowy figures everywhere.
00:09:43.520 Health, education, politics, comedy, wherever.
00:09:48.380 But that's not what you mean.
00:09:49.880 When you talk about comedy, you're not talking about somebody who's puppeteering in the background.
00:09:53.960 You're talking about someone else.
00:09:55.040 I'm not saying that there is, like, I don't think there's some sort of, you know, Geppetto who is a, I don't think that there is one person who is pulling all the strings.
00:10:04.340 And I'm certainly no conspiracy theorist.
00:10:06.540 But I'm saying that there is an orthodoxy and that orthodoxy may be unspoken.
00:10:12.200 It may be unwritten, but it exists and you have to stick to it because if you step outside of it, you know, you feel the pain of it.
00:10:21.840 So, and that orthodoxy, I think, you know, is largely economic.
00:10:28.180 But I think it's also, as I said, I think a social orthodoxy in terms of, you know, progressive beliefs.
00:10:36.280 And I think that, you know, when you have a prime minister that says, no, I'm going to do something slightly different, it upsets the markets.
00:10:44.000 It upsets that orthodoxy, it upsets individuals.
00:10:48.220 And you can see what, and it becomes a bit of a feeding frenzy.
00:10:50.860 I mean, the last days of trust was, when she was prime minister, was, you know, I mean, it was, everybody was against her.
00:11:01.020 I mean, and maybe, because as I said, I'm not an economist.
00:11:04.720 Maybe they're right.
00:11:06.040 Honestly, you know, Francis Constantine, maybe they're right.
00:11:08.880 Maybe I'm wrong.
00:11:09.860 But it did feel a bit strange that, you know, we were up against the White House.
00:11:13.780 We were up against the World Bank, the IMF, the Bank of England, the opposition, you know, other people within the Conservative Party.
00:11:22.300 You know, there was a huge opposition to everything that she was doing, which seemed to me out of kilter with what would be normal.
00:11:36.380 I mean, it was just such a robust response, to the point that, you know, I think on the Friday, the Chancellor, Kwasi Kwarting, had to fly back from Washington.
00:11:49.800 And he was fired, I think, on the plane on the way over.
00:11:53.960 Jeremy Hunt was brought in.
00:11:55.040 It was too late by then.
00:11:56.180 You know, the game, the gig was up.
00:11:57.420 But, so I'm not suggesting any conspiracy.
00:12:02.700 What I'm saying is that there is a social and economic orthodoxy which exists.
00:12:07.220 If a government was to dare go against it, you know, they would be closed down pretty quick.
00:12:13.200 And honestly, tell me where is the social and economic difference between this government and that of Biden or Trudeau or Macron or Keir Starmer, for that matter?
00:12:23.720 I suppose the only one that I can think of off the top of my head is Maloney in Italy. 0.95
00:12:27.380 In Italy, yeah.
00:12:28.860 But that's pretty much the only one.
00:12:30.720 But the point is…
00:12:31.440 Well, you've got Hungary as well.
00:12:32.760 Yeah.
00:12:33.660 So Viktor Orban in Hungary, he's definitely stepping outside of that orthodoxy.
00:12:38.220 But it's a country with 10 million people.
00:12:39.780 I love Hungary.
00:12:40.500 I love Hungarians.
00:12:41.940 It's not going to rock the planet if they step outside of the orthodoxy.
00:12:46.940 When the United Kingdom, still the fifth biggest economy in the world, still the sixth largest manufacturer in the world, London, the, you know, probably the greatest capital city, the greatest city on the planet, when that steps outside that economic orthodoxy, you know, it's going to make waves.
00:13:03.220 And as much as I love Rome and as much as I love Italy and as much as I love Hungary, you know, we're not talking in the same league.
00:13:10.200 No, good point taken.
00:13:12.200 When did you know that things are not going well?
00:13:16.500 Was there a particular moment where you thought to yourself, hang on?
00:13:20.360 Yeah.
00:13:21.620 Mid-August, I think.
00:13:23.940 No, I would say sometime.
00:13:25.560 It was very shortly afterwards.
00:13:30.040 And, you know, and I thought that, you know, we were just fighting fires all the time.
00:13:37.600 And party conference came around early October 2022.
00:13:42.100 And by then it was very clear that, you know, we were constantly just putting out fires.
00:13:48.460 And no matter what the party chairman did, what the chief whip did, what the, you know, what the prime minister's chief of staff was doing, what the other cabinet ministers were doing, it was all, you know, it was all just getting a bit too much.
00:14:01.700 And what were these fires in particular, Colin?
00:14:03.920 Well, you know, so we had, let's say, personnel issues with some members of parliament.
00:14:11.020 Some of them were legacy problems that had come over from Boris's time as prime minister.
00:14:18.180 But, you know, just getting the support across the back benches was, was, was, was pretty difficult.
00:14:25.700 So you're fighting your own party at this point?
00:14:28.260 Yeah, I don't think that's, I don't, and I don't think that's necessarily controversial.
00:14:31.460 I think the party was fighting itself pretty much during COVID as well.
00:14:37.060 And Brexit.
00:14:37.480 Yeah, well, and certainly Brexit.
00:14:39.820 I mean, the party's position on Brexit was neutral, although the prime minister, Cameron, obviously was, you know, he was in favour of staying.
00:14:47.540 And I often think about, you know, David was a, was a great prime minister and I really, really like and admire him.
00:14:55.700 You know, I, I wish he had stayed out of that argument.
00:14:59.080 I wish he had said, you know what, I'm not going to campaign for one thing or the other.
00:15:03.920 I've got to be the prime minister.
00:15:05.040 The rest of you go and campaign and fight for your lives, fight for what you believe.
00:15:09.900 And then when the votes come in, I'll implement what, you know, what you had.
00:15:15.300 But by, by this time he'd already done, I think, two, you know, we'd, we'd had two big, you know, national elections.
00:15:27.060 And so we had the, the first past the post one, and then we had the, what was the, what was the, what was the other, the Scottish, the Scottish referendum.
00:15:37.860 We hadn't had referendums for as long as anyone could remember.
00:15:41.740 And then suddenly three come along at once.
00:15:43.420 And David supported, you know, remaining.
00:15:50.180 And it cost him his premiership.
00:15:52.160 And I think actually, you know, he, he was a very, very good prime minister.
00:15:56.500 He was.
00:15:56.960 Why do you say that?
00:15:57.720 Because I don't think that's how people will remember him.
00:15:59.620 And I don't really know what I think about it.
00:16:01.800 Why do you say it was a good, because I'll be honest.
00:16:03.980 You strike me as a guy who's worked in a conservative party for a long time.
00:16:07.480 You're very nice.
00:16:08.400 You're nice about other people.
00:16:10.040 Are you just saying that because you're being nice?
00:16:12.580 Or, or was he actually a good prime minister?
00:16:15.300 And if so, what was it that made him a good prime minister?
00:16:17.740 So, look, he's, he's, his personal values were, were fantastic.
00:16:22.580 I mean, there was no scandal around David Cameron whilst he was in office.
00:16:26.560 And there's been one little thing subsequently with Greensill.
00:16:29.560 But when he was in office, you know, no hint of any scandal around him at all.
00:16:36.140 He's a good family man.
00:16:37.220 He was a decent man.
00:16:39.140 He was very clear about what he wanted to do, what he wanted to achieve.
00:16:42.380 I thought the coalition, and again, this will get me in trouble with some of my, some of
00:16:45.940 my friends.
00:16:47.400 But I actually thought the coalition did a pretty good job.
00:16:49.680 I quite, you know, I quite like Nick Clegg as deputy prime minister and Danny Alexander.
00:16:54.080 There was, those were like glory times.
00:16:55.760 That was a, you know, there we had a, what felt like a center right political coalition
00:17:03.400 that was doing things.
00:17:04.440 But when then Brexit came along, and of course, we've not had stable government since.
00:17:09.400 So when I said Cameron was a good prime minister, you know, he did have an air of stability about
00:17:14.160 him.
00:17:14.980 You know, there wasn't the rocking of the boat.
00:17:17.460 There wasn't the major scandals.
00:17:18.600 There wasn't the issues that we, you know, that we had.
00:17:21.940 If you remember, he had a, you know, pretty good foreign secretary in William Hague to
00:17:25.920 begin with.
00:17:27.080 And then he won a first time in, I don't know how many years, probably 25 or 30 years.
00:17:31.680 He actually won a majority for the Conservative Party.
00:17:34.300 We didn't win a majority in 2010.
00:17:36.580 That's why we had the coalition.
00:17:39.820 And the then party chairman, Lord Feldman, fantastic, fantastic man, great boss.
00:17:48.160 And, you know, we're bringing about the kind of reforms that a grown up political party needed.
00:17:54.040 And then, of course, it all just sort of changes overnight.
00:17:58.960 And Theresa May comes in in 2016.
00:18:01.800 And then, you know, there were a lot of people who were very, very against her and against
00:18:07.180 what she stood for.
00:18:08.340 She didn't help herself. 0.88
00:18:09.420 And then we had this ridiculous election in 2017. 0.98
00:18:12.820 I mean, just ridiculous. 0.97
00:18:14.760 We should never have done it. 0.89
00:18:16.100 Colin, do you think part of the problem was, I look at that, the Conservative Party, the majority
00:18:20.460 that you want in the 2019 general election is huge, particularly from the Red Wall.
00:18:25.040 And we've covered that on the show ad nauseum.
00:18:27.300 But the problem is, is that when you then have a Prime Minister like Liz Truss saying things
00:18:34.180 like, we need to shrink the government, we need to lower taxes, we need to cut public
00:18:40.380 sector, et cetera, et cetera.
00:18:42.400 That is a message that, by and large, ain't going to fly in the Red Wall, which means that
00:18:47.700 you are therefore putting these MP seats in jeopardy.
00:18:51.040 Therefore, if they act in their own best interest, they're not going to want to go for it.
00:18:55.900 So I disagree with you, Francis.
00:18:57.500 I think the Red Wall, if you said to them, do we want to have more efficient government?
00:19:04.440 Do we want to cut waste?
00:19:05.620 Do you want to have more money of your own in your own pocket?
00:19:08.800 Do we want to cut taxes?
00:19:10.120 The Red Wall, if you want to put it like that, those northern sort of Labour seats that
00:19:16.700 became Conservative, that's their language, okay?
00:19:21.000 We won such a massive majority in 2019 because we had the three Bs.
00:19:28.340 Sorry, the three Cs, not the three Cs, right?
00:19:31.760 We had, no, I was right the first time.
00:19:35.080 We had BBC.
00:19:38.340 I don't know, three Bs, three Cs.
00:19:39.600 It was BBC.
00:19:40.700 We had Boris.
00:19:42.960 Enormous charisma.
00:19:43.800 I mean, you know, so much charisma.
00:19:45.840 He shifted the dial on every campaign he's ever been in.
00:19:49.060 And he's, you know, he's a, the most once in a generation charismatic, charismatic politician.
00:19:58.160 Love him or hate him, he's going to move the dial.
00:20:01.500 We also had Brexit.
00:20:02.780 At that time, Brexit was not done.
00:20:04.720 A lot of people were very frustrated.
00:20:06.200 And we had Corbyn, you know.
00:20:08.100 So we had the BBC.
00:20:09.480 We had Boris.
00:20:10.500 We had Brexit. 0.81
00:20:11.000 And we had Corbyn.
00:20:12.160 That led to that huge majority that Boris won in 2019.
00:20:19.560 I think if we were to have the election with that, if Corbyn wasn't the leader of the opposition,
00:20:23.940 the majority wouldn't have been as big.
00:20:25.640 If Brexit had been sorted, the majority wouldn't have been as big.
00:20:29.040 And if Boris wasn't Boris and didn't have that magnetic charisma that, you know, that made him so famous,
00:20:35.820 then the majority wouldn't have been that big.
00:20:37.780 There may not have even been a majority at all, you know, for all I know.
00:20:41.460 But those were the three ingredients that meant that we had this weird landslide that happened.
00:20:49.700 And those issues of more efficient government, smaller government, lower taxes, going for growth, building jobs,
00:20:57.180 those are exactly the sort of things that people in those northern seats want.
00:21:02.320 Sorry to interrupt, Colin.
00:21:04.820 I mean, Matt Goodwin, who's a regular on the show, who I'm sure you're familiar with,
00:21:08.440 his argument is that the Liz trusts economic position, which, by the way, I really am a fan of.
00:21:14.760 I do think we need to shrink the size of the state, et cetera.
00:21:17.660 It represents sort of about 7% of the British public.
00:21:20.780 Most people want, you know, high taxes because they want high spending.
00:21:24.780 Are you sure that that's really what people in the Red Wall want?
00:21:27.560 Well, I mean, if you say, do you want your resources to be wasted in the way that they have been wasted on?
00:21:37.660 Yeah, I mean, you're leading the witness a little bit.
00:21:40.540 Maybe.
00:21:40.980 But, you know, you've got to think we are printing more money than we can.
00:21:47.680 God knows.
00:21:48.260 I agree with you.
00:21:49.240 I'm just saying, does the Red Wall agree with you?
00:21:51.180 We are borrowing more money.
00:21:52.240 But I think these are mostly pretty down-to-earth, common-sense people, you know, like Jeff Norcott.
00:22:00.860 You know, what do most people think?
00:22:01.880 I think most people think this.
00:22:03.400 You know, most people think you shouldn't live beyond your means.
00:22:06.680 You shouldn't have a government that's bigger than what you can afford.
00:22:09.560 But we have been literally, you know, high on printing money and borrowing money that we don't have.
00:22:18.320 And who are we saddling?
00:22:19.280 We're saddling your children and we're saddling my children and our grandchildren with, you know, just unpayable debts.
00:22:28.480 And we have to get to grips with this.
00:22:30.340 So Liz was right.
00:22:31.480 We have to have smaller government.
00:22:33.300 You know, we have to have a low-tax economy.
00:22:35.880 How many politicians have you heard, how many people have you had sitting in this chair saying, we wish the British economy was like, you know, or London was like Singapore on Thames?
00:22:45.980 Do you know how you get Singapore on Thames?
00:22:47.740 Is that you have a much more mature approach to immigration.
00:22:50.640 You have smaller government.
00:22:52.620 You probably pay your politicians a bit more.
00:22:55.000 You root out corruption.
00:22:56.460 You deal with law and order in a much more stringent way.
00:22:59.100 You deal with asylum in probably a different way than what we're currently doing.
00:23:04.460 So they say the soundbites, this is what we want, but they're not prepared to then do what's necessary to achieve it.
00:23:11.460 And what will be necessary to achieve it, you know, we'll be having a smaller government with a much more, you know, much more focused government, taxing less.
00:23:19.760 Putting corporation tax up is a crazy thing to do.
00:23:23.300 You want to drive businesses out.
00:23:25.620 You know, I just don't understand where is the conservative in taxing businesses more than they've ever been taxed before.
00:23:33.420 We should be competing in a global stage by having, no, come to the UK.
00:23:38.920 You know, if you're a billionaire somewhere in the world, you've probably got a flat here in London or you've got a house in London, right?
00:23:45.700 We get precisely zero of their income tax.
00:23:50.880 Well, why would you pay 50% or 45%?
00:23:54.320 You know, better to have 5% of everything than 40% of nothing. 0.91
00:23:57.760 I mean, any idiot knows this, but we make life very, very difficult for ourselves if we don't use the assets that we have, like London, you know, like, you know, the stability that we are famous for in a successful way.
00:24:17.140 And I think that, you know, we are in danger if we don't make some big changes pretty quickly, then I think we're in danger of, you know, creating irreversible problems for ourselves if we haven't done so already. 0.96
00:24:33.460 So you're saying all of these things, which I agree with from an economic point of view.
00:24:37.940 Why aren't we doing it then?
00:24:40.720 Well, you see, that's the $24 million question, right?
00:24:44.300 You know, it's hard.
00:24:46.120 It requires political leadership.
00:24:48.100 And I say this in my report.
00:24:49.540 There are certain things that, you know, we need to tackle as a nation that is going to require political leadership.
00:24:55.880 It's going to require courage, bravery from our politicians, more than just fine words.
00:25:01.680 They are going to have to see something through to the end.
00:25:04.200 The problem is, is that at the slightest pressure, most of them cave in.
00:25:10.080 You know, you saw this recently with the Ministry of Justice, and I can't remember what exactly the issue was.
00:25:14.600 It might come to me where it was obvious that they were going to have to, you know, change, change tack.
00:25:21.220 It was it was I remember it was the guy who had been convicted and sent to prison and he was innocent and he had to repay the money that he got compensation.
00:25:35.520 And then they tried to charge him for bed and board for the 20 odd years he was in prison.
00:25:40.860 And and, you know, the newspapers sort of said, this is outrageous.
00:25:45.980 And the Ministry of Justice put out a statement which said, we have no plans to change this.
00:25:51.880 And I was listening to this on the radio and I and I turned to my wife and I said, of course, they're going to change this. 0.88
00:25:57.300 I mean, just like this is ridiculous. 0.90
00:25:58.980 This is typical of what I'm talking about. 0.73
00:26:01.640 And sure enough, within a week, the Justice Minister had announced, yes, we're going we're going to change it.
00:26:07.340 So what do they lose on all counts? 0.98
00:26:09.940 Because they look idiotic to begin with for not saying not reading the political runes and saying, yes, of course, we're going to have to change this. 0.99
00:26:18.880 This is, you know, it's offensive that you would charge this guy this. 1.00
00:26:21.540 And of course, we need to look at it.
00:26:24.880 But then they'd already put the press release out to say that they weren't going to look at it.
00:26:29.680 And then, of course, then they have to U-turn.
00:26:31.460 There's nothing more obnoxious to an MP that has to, you know, grab hold of the handbrake and do a 180 degree U-turn in the middle of the skid pan, which is exactly what they did. 1.00
00:26:42.220 So they just look stupid. 0.99
00:26:44.040 And this is it's going to require bravery for them to say this is what we're going to do and we're going to stick to it. 1.00
00:26:49.580 And we don't see much bravery, I'm afraid, in public life.
00:26:54.440 We don't see it from either of the two main political parties or any of them.
00:27:01.060 And, you know, I remember I'm old enough to remember my political hero is Ronald Reagan.
00:27:07.780 And if you ever come to my house, you'll see that we have our downstairs toilet is is it's got all of the Reagan memorabilia in there.
00:27:16.440 And he used to sit in front of a TV screen and talk to the nation.
00:27:21.200 And he was known as like the great communicator, you know, the Gipper.
00:27:24.080 And he would say this is why we're going to be cutting taxes because, you know, we're cutting taxes because, in fact, we will raise more money.
00:27:32.280 And he would talk about things like the Laffer curve and when the when the shuttle exploded and he went straight onto the TV.
00:27:38.680 And he spoke to a nation that was in shock about us not hiding our, you know, our mistakes.
00:27:45.000 But we do things in, you know, making a clear contrast between Western American values and the values of the of the of the Soviet Union.
00:27:54.160 And, you know, he had great political bravery.
00:27:57.180 You know, he's a great communicator.
00:27:59.240 And we don't have anyone like that, you know.
00:28:01.340 But here you come to the question that I always ask in this situation, which is, well, I mean, the obvious counter to what you're saying is just from a devil's advocate perspective is list trust show bravery.
00:28:12.960 And look how that ended.
00:28:14.160 Number one.
00:28:14.960 But there's a broader thing going on that I really wanted to ask you about, which is I am very concerned about what you're talking about.
00:28:22.560 Not only the lack of leadership, but also particularly on the economic issue, we are not willing to be honest with ourselves.
00:28:30.720 And all we're doing is pushing the problem down the line onto people who are not yet born.
00:28:36.840 That is irresponsible.
00:28:39.120 But the question I want to ask you is in a world in which any time a prime minister says I intend to cut spending, I intend to lower taxes,
00:28:49.320 what the media do is they come out and say, well, when you do this, you will kill people.
00:28:54.840 You are killing people. 1.00
00:28:56.020 You are a murderer. 1.00
00:28:57.180 Right. 1.00
00:28:57.580 George Osborne.
00:28:58.400 I was on TV the other day arguing with some woman who called George Osborne a murderer.
00:29:03.740 I asked her when he was convicted.
00:29:05.520 She didn't have an answer.
00:29:06.520 But my point is we live in a world in which I don't really know how a politician is ever going to cut spending again,
00:29:15.120 because if you make that decision, you will be saddled with those images that people will be given in their heads by the media.
00:29:24.840 Yeah.
00:29:25.160 Yeah.
00:29:25.380 It's a tough job, right?
00:29:26.500 And it shouldn't be for everybody.
00:29:28.460 And, you know, we have this phrase amongst some friends of mine and I, I, B, T, C, D.
00:29:34.340 You know, I blame the candidates department.
00:29:35.860 You know, when you see this lack of leadership, the lack of spine that we have across all parties,
00:29:43.460 you've got to blame the candidates department.
00:29:45.120 You know, where are they finding these people?
00:29:47.080 You know, I would say I'm being very generous now.
00:29:50.200 A third of our parliamentarians are unemployable.
00:29:53.360 You know, like, you know, where do we find them?
00:29:57.240 You know, these people we run, we are trusting to vote on our behalf to run things.
00:30:01.780 You know, they can run a bath half of them. 0.93
00:30:03.220 So, you know, we've got to be much clearer eyed, much more focused about what candidates we're choosing.
00:30:11.380 You know, and then when they're in government, they need to know that their political leaders,
00:30:17.000 those people who are currently either shadow ministers or ministers or secretaries of state or shadow secretaries of state,
00:30:22.980 have got the spine and have got their back, you know, to see something through.
00:30:27.320 And they need to explain to the public why they're doing it. 0.96
00:30:29.620 The public aren't stupid. 0.99
00:30:31.180 You know, they're not stupid. 0.98
00:30:32.400 If you explain to them, this is why we have to do it and stick to their lines, 0.89
00:30:37.860 I'm sure that, you know, you won't win over some.
00:30:41.700 Of course you're not, you know, but you're never going to win over everybody.
00:30:45.140 But you just need to be able to say, this is why we're doing it.
00:30:47.780 And you know what?
00:30:48.160 It might be unpopular, but you do all that at the beginning of a parliament.
00:30:51.680 You don't, you know, you might not want to do that at the very end of a parliament,
00:30:54.020 but you need to make these big, difficult, tough decisions and take people with you. 0.94
00:30:58.880 I think the public are sick of being taken for fools and, you know, having wishy-washy here today, 0.97
00:31:05.280 gone tomorrow politicians that, you know, have no spines. 0.98
00:31:09.960 I think they're looking for political leaders.
00:31:11.620 There's a guy, there's a conservative member of parliament, northern fellow.
00:31:18.840 He was Labour.
00:31:19.600 He was a coal miner.
00:31:21.400 Lee Anderson?
00:31:22.040 Lee Anderson.
00:31:23.600 He's phenomenally popular, you know.
00:31:26.580 Well, where did he suddenly spring from?
00:31:28.660 What a guy, you know.
00:31:30.240 Common sense, says it as he sees it, takes on that book with the megaphone outside parliament
00:31:35.720 every time he sees him.
00:31:36.800 So, you know, now we need more people with that kind of backbone.
00:31:41.040 I'm not saying, I don't know him and I don't know his politics.
00:31:43.600 I'm sure he's a fantastic fellow.
00:31:45.980 But we need more people with that kind of conviction who are going to stick to their guns
00:31:50.960 and not get pushed around by the latest, you know, fancy Dan, you know, opinion polls
00:31:57.020 that might come to the left or to the right.
00:31:59.480 Well, I hope that that happens.
00:32:01.040 Let's move on to something slightly less controversial, which is, of course, religion.
00:32:03.880 You are the author of the Bloom Review, which is a review into faith in this country and
00:32:11.800 a lot of the issues that surround that.
00:32:14.900 Before we get into your findings and some of your conclusions, what is faith and how
00:32:19.820 is it different from belief?
00:32:22.440 What is faith and what is the purpose of faith in society?
00:32:25.620 That is a great question.
00:32:27.400 So I've done quite a few interviews about this report already.
00:32:29.700 No one's ever asked me that.
00:32:30.760 But the definition between faith, belief and religion, I think is misunderstood.
00:32:37.640 And so in my report, I make a very clear recommendation that government, for the purposes of, for the
00:32:44.540 purposes of government, there should be some working definitions of what is religion, what
00:32:48.620 is faith and what is belief.
00:32:50.700 In simple terms, we've all got beliefs.
00:32:53.920 You don't have to have a faith to have a belief, but you do need to have a belief to
00:32:56.940 have a faith.
00:32:58.500 And religion is, you don't necessarily have to have a faith to have a religion.
00:33:02.880 Or a belief.
00:33:05.080 Yeah.
00:33:08.040 We have sort of institutionalized religious organizations in the UK and around the world.
00:33:18.520 And then you've got people.
00:33:19.800 So there's a lot more people who are very spiritual.
00:33:22.660 So they would say, I don't, I have a faith, but I don't have a religion.
00:33:25.520 A lot of people would say that.
00:33:27.260 You know, a lot of people believe in God.
00:33:29.640 I mean, still, the vast majority of people still believe in God.
00:33:33.280 What's the percentage in this country?
00:33:34.820 I think it's in the 80s.
00:33:36.260 In the 80s.
00:33:36.820 Interesting.
00:33:38.160 Who said that they believe in God.
00:33:39.460 But it might not be the God of, you know, Islam or the God of Judaism or the God of Christianity 0.85
00:33:45.880 or Hinduism or Sikhism.
00:33:48.540 But it might just be something.
00:33:50.120 They believe in something.
00:33:51.520 But they certainly have a belief in something more than they can see, more than they can
00:33:55.780 touch, something supernatural.
00:33:57.920 It may be well-founded.
00:33:59.120 It may be not.
00:33:59.720 You know, it's not for me to say.
00:34:00.980 Is that faith?
00:34:02.660 That would be a faith.
00:34:03.980 That would be a faith.
00:34:05.260 It would also be a belief.
00:34:06.160 Because I say, you have to have a belief to have a faith.
00:34:07.960 You don't have to have a faith to have a belief.
00:34:11.320 So the humanists, and by the way, Andrew Copson, if you ever want a good guest for your show,
00:34:16.820 get Andrew Copson from the humanists.
00:34:18.260 I like him.
00:34:19.040 You know, we get on well.
00:34:20.500 He was very helpful when I was looking at these definitions.
00:34:24.100 I don't think he necessarily wanted to be as helpful as he was.
00:34:26.920 He was very helpful because, you know, he did help me understand that, you know, you
00:34:31.620 can have profoundly worldview beliefs that are not rooted in anything supernatural.
00:34:40.740 They're not rooted in anything that requires faith.
00:34:44.600 You know, people joke that, you know, humanism is, you know, it's the religion for people
00:34:50.320 that have no faith.
00:34:51.140 You know, it's kind of, because they do have their, they have an orthodoxy in it, in that
00:34:56.440 sense.
00:34:58.160 But yes, still, the majority of people in the UK have a faith.
00:35:03.480 It's for the first time, according to the 2021 census, it's less than 50% now are Christian.
00:35:09.920 7%, nearly 8%, I think, are British Muslims.
00:35:14.660 And then you've got, you know, Hindus and Sikhs and Jews and Buddhists and others that
00:35:21.000 sort of make up that difference.
00:35:22.440 But from memory, I think it's in the sort of 70s of people who say that they have a faith.
00:35:29.760 And, you know, that's very interesting.
00:35:31.500 So when you've got that many people who say faith is important to them, their faith shapes
00:35:36.180 who they are and what they do and why they do what they do.
00:35:41.320 And yet government is so illiterate when it comes to understanding, well, what is it that
00:35:47.360 makes these people tick?
00:35:48.620 You know, even the basics of what's the difference between a Hindu and a Sikh?
00:35:53.120 If a government official, if a civil servant, somebody who's responsible for enacting a writing
00:36:00.480 policy and then administering it, doesn't know the difference between a Hindu and a Sikh,
00:36:04.960 then there's something wrong.
00:36:06.180 And what I found was that faith literacy in government, in the police, in the National
00:36:11.440 Health Service, in prison service, in education, was woefully inadequate.
00:36:17.780 You know, and when faith is more important to, there are more people with faith than any
00:36:23.420 other protected characteristic.
00:36:25.220 So you've got more people who have a faith in the UK than are pregnant, than are male or
00:36:30.820 female or LGBTQI or disabled or, you know, I'm trying to remember what all the protected
00:36:39.580 characteristics are.
00:36:40.680 But, you know, more people have a faith in any of them.
00:36:43.400 And yet faith is the Cinderella protected characteristic when it comes to these things.
00:36:48.920 And so my argument from the very beginning, and, you know, Boris asked me to do this, because
00:36:54.860 I think he understood from his time as mayor that, and London is, by the way, has more
00:37:00.580 people of faith than the rest of the country as a percentage.
00:37:03.920 It's just much more diverse, that I think he kind of had that instinct.
00:37:08.940 Now, Boris is many things.
00:37:10.080 A lot of people will criticise him, you know, from here to eternity.
00:37:13.300 But he does have an intellectual curiosity, and he does have an instinct, which very few
00:37:18.820 other politicians will have.
00:37:20.940 And he, I think, had this sort of instinct, well, look, there is something that there's
00:37:24.560 a disconnect, both as my time as mayor, and now as, you know, as Foreign Secretary, and
00:37:28.680 now as Prime Minister, that people, faith is important to some people.
00:37:32.100 And yet we don't understand, you know, we don't understand it as either government or
00:37:35.900 as in public life.
00:37:38.260 So my report is 65,000 words long, you know, it's a big report, 22 recommendations.
00:37:48.100 We did a call for evidence, we had 21,000 responses to it, you know, there's a lot of
00:37:52.700 work that went into it, an excellent team supporting me from academics as well as some civil servants.
00:38:00.520 And we produced these recommendations, which hopefully, if either this government or the
00:38:08.620 next, whatever that might look like, you know, will adopt.
00:38:12.480 And I think it will go some way to improve the relationship between government and faith,
00:38:18.980 people of faith and places of worship.
00:38:22.160 I mean, just take, for example, places of worship.
00:38:24.020 We have tens of thousands of them.
00:38:29.040 And nearly all places of worship in the UK are schools of virtue.
00:38:33.700 You know, whatever your faith, if you go to a place of worship, you will come out of it
00:38:37.420 a better version of yourself, we hope, right?
00:38:41.400 They contribute to the public good, whether it's in the mosque or the synagogue or the church
00:38:46.360 or the temple or the gurdwara.
00:38:47.880 They contribute to the public good enormously.
00:38:50.460 And yet it kind of runs parallel to everything.
00:38:52.320 Government's oblivious to it.
00:38:54.420 Think of all the youth clubs and the food banks and the self-help groups and the, you
00:38:59.320 know, Alcoholics Anonymous and the Cocaine Anonymous and all these other groups that are
00:39:02.720 run out of places of worship.
00:39:05.120 They do phenomenal work.
00:39:07.280 And I'm very excited by the work that they're doing.
00:39:09.560 You know, I want to champion them.
00:39:12.580 But, you know, government are oblivious to it for the most part.
00:39:15.620 And it seems to be an afterthought whenever they just think, oh, gosh, you know, we need to,
00:39:19.140 we saw that in COVID, this afterthought, you know, COVID suddenly happens.
00:39:24.280 We need to close down places of worship.
00:39:26.400 Well, we had no way of communicating with, you know, well, who are the, how do we get hold
00:39:33.880 of all the imams and the rabbis and the bishops and the temple elders?
00:39:41.260 How do we get hold of it?
00:39:42.020 Well, you know, it was a, it was an interesting time because you just saw immediately at a
00:39:49.400 time of crisis, we needed these people.
00:39:51.900 We needed the places of worship to access vaccine centers and to do all these other things
00:39:55.720 that they were doing.
00:39:58.140 But there was no communication.
00:39:59.820 There was no relationship.
00:40:01.320 Colin, a lot of people have come on this show and they've been speaking about the decline
00:40:05.840 of Christianity and the fact that it's having in our society.
00:40:09.340 So would you be able to tell us a little bit about that?
00:40:12.720 Is Christianity declining?
00:40:14.760 And if so, how quickly?
00:40:16.700 Well, it is and it isn't, right?
00:40:19.000 So within the different denominations within the Christian church, you know, you'll have,
00:40:24.860 I mean, I always think of it a bit like a candle, you know, when you get to the very
00:40:27.960 top of the candle, very high church, and then you've got kind of different denominations
00:40:31.960 down the bottom.
00:40:34.540 Evangelical church is growing.
00:40:36.200 The evangelical church is growing, particularly the Evangelical Church of England churches,
00:40:40.880 the Pentecostal churches are growing, the, you know, so some of the more recent immigrant
00:40:50.040 communities that have brought their particular flavor of Christian expression, they are, you
00:40:58.680 know, they're big.
00:40:59.600 The Catholic church is doing pretty well.
00:41:01.040 I mean, largely, I think, driven by one, some people in the Church of England feeling
00:41:08.260 that they are, Church of England no longer speaks for them on, you know, certain issues
00:41:12.580 of what they see as morality, and also because we had lots of Eastern Europeans come to the
00:41:17.940 UK and they started going to Catholic churches.
00:41:23.300 But it's a mixed bag.
00:41:24.720 So overall, we have a, you know, we have a, a, a state religion, if you like, in that
00:41:32.180 we have the, the Church of England.
00:41:35.780 And, and yes, it would be fair to say that fewer and fewer people are probably identifying
00:41:44.500 or definitely fewer and fewer people identifying as being Church of England.
00:41:48.060 However, within that, if you were to have a look at it from a, from a segmented point
00:41:56.880 of view, the different communities that within that, some are growing like crazy.
00:42:02.880 So if you go to St. Helens Bishop's Gate, just take London, we've got St. Helens Bishop's
00:42:07.540 Gate, we've got Holy Trinity Brompton, packed, absolutely heaving.
00:42:11.120 And they've got lots of satellite churches around London.
00:42:12.980 Both of them are doing, you know, incredible work and their churches are full.
00:42:19.000 And yet, you know, you can go to some little parish churches not far from here.
00:42:22.480 You might only get a dozen people in there.
00:42:24.580 So it's a really mixed picture.
00:42:27.580 But what we are seeing is a lot of, particularly Gen Zs and millennials are saying, well, I might
00:42:33.140 not want to be religious, but I do want to have a faith.
00:42:35.600 And so they are finding a home in some non-conformist or evangelical churches where it is, you know,
00:42:48.080 perhaps more welcoming.
00:42:49.060 It's certainly very different to, you know, a priest and, you know, the liturgy that might
00:42:55.720 go on.
00:42:57.180 I mean, some churches are like mini rock concerts.
00:43:01.260 I mean, there would be, you know, the production values, and I love your set, but I mean, they
00:43:06.500 would make your set look positively cheap.
00:43:08.700 Well, I mean, chill out.
00:43:11.340 It gets like not fair, mate.
00:43:12.960 And so when you're, you know, when you look at it in the round, I think in the round, you
00:43:18.780 would say, I would say, and I say so in my report, that actually faith is in pretty good
00:43:22.440 health.
00:43:23.260 But it's just not what it used to be, you know.
00:43:26.440 And it's certainly not what I think some people in the media would want it to be.
00:43:32.620 You know, there is a, let's talk the church down.
00:43:34.640 Let's talk faith down.
00:43:36.180 You know, it's dying out.
00:43:37.260 There is a sort of a, you know, an orthodoxy of, you know, secularism.
00:43:46.680 Do you think that's because the elite classes are populated disproportionately by people who
00:43:54.360 are of that secular worldview?
00:43:57.140 Well, that's an interesting point.
00:43:58.800 Many, many civil servants that I spoke to.
00:44:00.840 And if you take our civil servants and the BBC, if you just take those two, people who
00:44:07.460 work at the BBC and civil servants, they pretty much come from the same stock, you know, red 1.00
00:44:11.640 brick universities from the home counties, you know.
00:44:13.780 But many of them have a faith.
00:44:15.540 And this is the infuriating thing.
00:44:18.440 Many of these people would have a faith, but it would be very private.
00:44:21.900 They would go to their church on Sunday or they would go to their synagogue or they'd
00:44:26.460 go to their mosque and they wouldn't bring it to work with them. 1.00
00:44:30.560 But they would bring other aspects of their life, you know, wanting to be very modern and
00:44:36.100 they would bring their whole self to work, whatever that might be.
00:44:39.440 But faith does seem to sort of, there was a, there's a sort of a feeling where you've
00:44:43.240 got to privatize it.
00:44:44.340 And that may or may not be the right thing.
00:44:47.540 But I mean, I'm not convinced that, that these people necessarily are devout secularists.
00:44:55.540 But they certainly, many of them go along with a secular worldview, probably just to
00:45:01.040 keep the peace.
00:45:01.560 No one wants to get fired, right?
00:45:02.840 For stepping outside of, goes back to what I said earlier, you don't want to step outside
00:45:06.740 the orthodoxy of the, the, the, what you're in.
00:45:11.120 But, you know, faith is, as I say in the report, and I think I've demonstrated both, you know,
00:45:17.240 empirically and evidentially that, you know, faith is actually in pretty good health.
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00:46:46.780 So what were some of the key recommendations in terms of things that we need to change in
00:46:52.220 relation to faith?
00:46:53.080 Well, I mean, look, one of the key things, I mean, I've said this in other interviews,
00:46:56.800 but if there was only one, there are 22 recommendations, if there was only one recommendation that this
00:47:01.840 government should introduce and do it quickly, and that is to tackle forced and coercive marriage.
00:47:07.420 So we have thousands and thousands of typically women, but not exclusively, British women who are
00:47:18.460 forced or coerced into marrying someone against their will.
00:47:23.800 And it's like, it's just as, it's like in the too difficult box.
00:47:29.920 We can't deal with it.
00:47:30.800 You know, it's, it's just too hard.
00:47:32.860 If we accept that it goes on, that somebody is forced to marry someone that they don't 0.82
00:47:39.980 love, who they may have never met before, then we accept that they're going to be raped,
00:47:44.820 sexually assaulted, and all other kinds of travesties will happen to them. 0.89
00:47:49.140 And that should not happen in this country.
00:47:51.760 Every prime minister, as far back as I could find, said something really positive.
00:47:56.360 We must tackle the scourge of forced marriage, you know, and we will do something.
00:48:02.820 Nothing's happened.
00:48:04.520 Nothing?
00:48:05.540 Hardly anything.
00:48:06.620 The dial hasn't moved at all.
00:48:08.460 The unit sits between the Home Office and the Foreign Office.
00:48:11.520 And anyone that works in government knows as soon as you've got a department that has two bosses,
00:48:15.280 it has no boss.
00:48:17.160 Civil servants work to a minister, right?
00:48:19.560 And a minister works to a secretary of state.
00:48:21.880 And if the secretary of state says, this is a priority, then it happens.
00:48:27.000 If they're suddenly working to two ministers or two secretaries of state, it becomes somebody
00:48:32.300 else's problem and they don't tackle it.
00:48:35.020 And I make a very, very clear recommendation in the report that government have to get to
00:48:39.860 grips with this.
00:48:40.640 It happens in all communities.
00:48:43.420 There's not, I mean, you know, there will be, I think, some lazy people that will say,
00:48:47.120 oh, it's all in one community.
00:48:48.480 It's not, happens in lots of communities.
00:48:50.060 Can you flesh that out, Colin?
00:48:53.860 Because I think you say it will be lazy people, but I think people who are not that well educated
00:48:59.300 about faith would likely jump to assumptions.
00:49:01.780 So there's an assumption that it would always be within the British Muslim community.
00:49:05.360 And it does happen within the British Muslim community.
00:49:07.740 It also happens in the Gypsy Roma community, the Traveller community.
00:49:11.400 It happens in the Jewish community, particularly with the ultra-Orthodox Jewish community.
00:49:16.520 It's particularly prevalent in the Haredi community there.
00:49:22.880 And there are some very small, and the numbers are tiny, but in some very small Christian groups
00:49:28.140 it will happen in.
00:49:29.220 And then in other communities where you've got the traditions of arranged marriages.
00:49:35.700 Now, there's a distinction between what is an arranged marriage and what is a forced
00:49:39.220 or coercive marriage. 0.98
00:49:41.220 But I personally passionately believe that if there is any coercion at all, it's a coercive
00:49:48.460 marriage.
00:49:49.700 So if a dad or a mum says, I really would like you to marry this person, you know, for whatever
00:49:56.520 reason, and the daughter or the son says, no, I like, you know, I like so-and-so, no, but
00:50:03.780 this would be really good for you.
00:50:04.860 That is a coercion that is happening.
00:50:07.520 We've also got child marriage that is happening, particularly within the Gypsy Roma Traveller 1.00
00:50:11.640 community.
00:50:12.600 And how old are these children?
00:50:13.800 Well, some of them are like 13 years old.
00:50:16.160 And it's happening here in this country.
00:50:18.520 And government know it's happening, but it's kind of like, it's just too difficult to deal
00:50:22.960 with.
00:50:23.220 And why is it too difficult to deal with?
00:50:24.840 What's difficult about it?
00:50:25.800 Well, because you are opening yourself up to customs and practices, which are both, some
00:50:34.180 will argue are religious, therefore you're not arguing with humans, you're arguing with
00:50:38.320 the Almighty, in whatever shape he comes.
00:50:43.380 And they are practices that in some cases will go back hundreds, if not thousands of years.
00:50:47.240 And, you know, there will be some groups that say, we've been around a lot longer than this
00:50:52.700 government, you know, governments come and go, but our faith, our way of life stays the
00:50:57.600 same.
00:50:58.900 And the impact that it has on women is absolutely obscene.
00:51:03.780 And, you know, I am, some of the evidence that we found and some of the testimony that
00:51:09.700 we received was absolutely heartbreaking from British women who have been forced and trapped
00:51:15.220 in marriages, you know, raped, abused, and no one could do anything, seemingly no one could
00:51:22.180 do anything, even within their local communities.
00:51:24.880 And in some cases, their own mothers empowering it almost, you know, becoming enablers of this
00:51:32.200 crime because it happened to them.
00:51:34.920 Now, I mean, it's adjacent to the issue of FGM, female genital mutilation.
00:51:41.320 I don't cover that in my report because it's not really a religious thing, it's more of a
00:51:44.440 cultural thing.
00:51:45.720 But, you know, it's horrendous that it happens.
00:51:49.260 And there are laws against it, but it still happens.
00:51:52.160 And what's even, you know, makes it more incomprehensible to me is that there are some
00:51:56.280 mothers that are enabling it because it happened to them and it happened to their sisters.
00:51:59.800 Well, it's going to, you know, and we have to tackle these thorny subjects.
00:52:02.960 And that requires bravery.
00:52:05.540 You know, it requires our politicians to be brave and courageous.
00:52:09.040 They just need to find a spine.
00:52:11.400 Look, I think everybody here is in agreement with you.
00:52:14.580 The thing is, with this particular issue of coerced marriage, is that if the, I imagine
00:52:21.620 it's normally women, if these women report it to the police, they put their lives in danger. 1.00
00:52:26.660 And not only that, they're going to be essentially excommunicated from their community, aren't
00:52:32.340 they?
00:52:32.620 Yeah.
00:52:33.300 And that sense of shunning and excommunication is a very powerful weapon to keep people trapped
00:52:41.040 within coercive, you know, faith-based harm or religious harmful environments.
00:52:48.000 And, you know, that's, there's a whole chapter on harm that is done within faith communities. 0.64
00:52:57.600 Look, the vast majority of places of worship are amazing.
00:53:01.640 The vast majority of people of faith are amazing.
00:53:04.280 They do tremendous work.
00:53:06.660 There are some very, very small minorities.
00:53:09.220 I say there are three types of believers.
00:53:11.260 I say this in the report.
00:53:12.280 There are three types of believers.
00:53:13.100 There are true believers.
00:53:15.380 We love true believers.
00:53:16.460 We can work with true believers of all faiths, right?
00:53:19.360 Good, decent, generous, kind, peaceful people.
00:53:22.800 And you've got non-believers.
00:53:24.060 And most non-believers are fine, decent, kind, generous people.
00:53:27.000 We can work with them.
00:53:28.520 The third group are the make-believers.
00:53:30.880 And they're the ones that cause us all the problems.
00:53:33.160 It's the make-believers who use their faith as a vehicle to promote themselves or their agenda. 0.94
00:53:38.800 You know, they do it for pride or for, you know, for money, ego or status or whatever it might be.
00:53:44.740 And they use faith as a vehicle for these things.
00:53:47.420 And government needs to be really discerning, not cynical, but they need to be really discerning about who they engage with, who they talk to within the faith space.
00:53:55.900 Not just going for the first person that puts their hand up and says, hi, I'm the local community leader.
00:54:00.760 Talk to me.
00:54:01.820 You know, they need to say, no, we're going to be much more discerning about who we're talking to and what we're dealing with.
00:54:07.220 Because there are so many make-believers out there.
00:54:10.880 And again, without, you know, turning the tables on you guys, there are make-believers in the comedy industry.
00:54:15.880 How many people use their comedic skills for, you know, for non-comedy reasons?
00:54:24.140 Yeah, well, quite a lot of them, unfortunately.
00:54:26.400 The thing that I found really interesting about your report is you were saying that there are certain topics or aspects of religion that we don't talk about, we don't focus on.
00:54:37.780 One of them is Sikh extremism. 0.99
00:54:39.680 There was black nationalism in there.
00:54:41.680 So let's talk a little bit about that because I don't think, I mean, that to me was completely surprising.
00:54:48.520 So, look, number one, when it comes to faith-based extremism, by far and away, both in destruction, quantity, impact, Islamist extremism is still the biggest. 0.99
00:55:06.900 And I make the point in my report that we have to acknowledge that by far and away, the biggest victims of Islamist extremism are Muslims.
00:55:18.880 And I don't think we're quick enough to say, look, yes, it affects us.
00:55:23.180 You know, if there's a tragedy, if there's a, you know, if there's a terrorist attack, you know, in one of our cities or something, of course, that all affects us.
00:55:30.660 But the day-to-day grind of ongoing Islamist extremism doesn't affect me.
00:55:36.660 It doesn't affect you too.
00:55:37.880 It affects the majority of British Muslims.
00:55:41.740 Just that chilling effect, that corrosive effect.
00:55:45.420 And I think we need to be, we need to acknowledge that.
00:55:48.960 And we need to say that, you know, that they are, I think, they are the biggest victims of this.
00:55:56.280 And Islamist extremism has been done to death by lots of other people.
00:55:59.760 So I didn't go into it in too much detail because I only wanted to put my energies where I felt I could say something different, where I could add something or contribute something that others hadn't done.
00:56:12.140 The second biggest group is white supremacists, neo-Nazis, who will very often use faith as a, they're make-believers, right, as a vehicle to promote their very sinister and very racist approach. 0.56
00:56:31.140 And so you have the case of some white supremacists and neo-Nazis literally running into mosques, eating bacon sandwiches, leaving Bibles in the mosque, barricading the doors where women are supposed to be coming out of, and just generally being really vile and horrible. 0.95
00:56:54.220 And worse examples of this. There are many, many worse examples of this. 0.92
00:56:59.260 So, and I'm pleased to say, you know, when Priti Patel was Home Secretary, she prescribed a number of these white supremacist neo-Nazi groups as terrorist organizations.
00:57:10.080 And she did a brilliant job at doing that. And I applaud her for her courage in saying, I'm not going to part up with this.
00:57:16.780 Because we had lots and lots of Islamist terrorists and extremist groups that were prescribed as terrorist organizations.
00:57:22.880 And she took, I think, a really courageous decision of saying, no, we're going to go after some white supremacists as well, because what they're doing is, you know.
00:57:31.080 Colin, why is that courageous? That seems pretty normal thing for government to do, to go after neo-Nazis.
00:57:35.540 Yeah. I mean, when you put it like that, it ought to be, but she did it. You know, she did it.
00:57:43.900 So who was the Home Secretary from 2010 to 2016? Remind me. It was Theresa May.
00:57:51.260 Those groups like the Sonnenkrieg division and the Luftwaffe or the Atomwaffe division and all these other groups.
00:57:58.860 They're not very, they don't conceal themselves well, do they?
00:58:02.640 They don't. But no, Priti did. And, you know, I'm a good friend of hers. And I think she did. I think, you know, she was magnificent.
00:58:09.900 And she stepped up. 0.96
00:58:11.220 So white supremacists are the second biggest. 0.99
00:58:12.820 They're second biggest. And then I think there's a massive, massive, massive gap then between the third biggest group in terms of who are they in the UK.
00:58:21.760 And I do say in the report that they are Sikh extremists. Now, the vast majority of British Sikhs, they're a relatively small population.
00:58:30.180 The vast majority of them are the best of British.
00:58:34.100 They are overrepresented in almost every positive indice you could look for.
00:58:40.420 Home ownership, family staying together, academic results, you know, starting businesses.
00:58:45.300 You know, they're just brilliant, brilliant people. They're very charitable. They're very kind.
00:58:50.960 They are some of the loveliest people I've ever met.
00:58:54.300 Hiding amongst them is a tiny minority who want and are fighting for an independent Sikh state in India called Khalistan, which is roughly the Punjab.
00:59:07.580 Now, look, I'm almost a free speech absolutist, right?
00:59:12.820 So I take this view and I say in the report, people can believe whatever they want to believe.
00:59:17.500 You can encourage people to believe what you believe.
00:59:20.380 You can raise money. You can, you know, you can teach and educate.
00:59:24.500 You can do whatever you like. But what you can't do is be coercive.
00:59:27.700 What you can't do is threaten.
00:59:28.600 And this group, there are plenty of Sikhs that, you know, have some vague notion that, yes, Khalistan would be quite nice.
00:59:38.780 You know, they would perhaps argue, you know, the Jews have got Israel.
00:59:43.840 The Christians have got the West. 1.00
00:59:46.600 Hindus have got India. 1.00
00:59:47.840 You know, Muslims have got the North Africa and the Gulf and Pakistan. 0.97
00:59:55.540 Pakistan, the Buddhists have got Sri Lanka and Myanmar. 0.97
01:00:04.720 Where's our where's our homeland?
01:00:06.340 You know, we would.
01:00:07.400 And I think there might be some small view that that might be the case, but they wouldn't dream in a million years of causing pain or suffering or being aggressive.
01:00:17.580 They certainly wouldn't terrorize anyone.
01:00:19.700 They certainly wouldn't be extreme in their behavior.
01:00:22.760 And that's fine.
01:00:23.600 You know, you can believe in that if that's what you want.
01:00:25.720 I mean, you know, it's not my business.
01:00:28.400 I'm not Indian.
01:00:29.000 I'm not Sikh.
01:00:32.200 There is a tiny minority who are extremists.
01:00:35.920 And I call them PKEs, pro-Khalistan extremists. 1.00
01:00:40.340 And they are aggressive.
01:00:42.680 They are threatening.
01:00:46.040 I mean...
01:00:46.360 Who are they aggressive towards and who are they threatening?
01:00:48.480 Other Sikhs, primarily. 0.71
01:00:49.820 I mean, this is kind of...
01:00:50.640 Like with Islamists? 1.00
01:00:51.840 Yeah.
01:00:52.000 It's kind of hermetically sealed within the Sikh community.
01:00:54.120 I had so many...
01:00:55.720 When we were doing the evidence gathering, so many Sikhs come to me under the promise of anonymity to say, you know, our lives are being made of misery. 1.00
01:01:02.900 You know, our gudwaras, that's the gudwara is the Sikh temple.
01:01:06.640 You know, are being taken over by these extremists.
01:01:09.020 You know, they're kind of using our local sort of democratic means to become, you know, take over the running of our charities, of the Sikh charities, of the Sikh gudwaras. 0.99
01:01:20.980 And they're poisoning our young people with some, you know, some really hardline extremist things.
01:01:27.020 And, you know, they've come after me.
01:01:28.600 They're really upset with me.
01:01:29.800 And they've written all kinds of stuff and nonsense.
01:01:32.560 So usual suspects saying that my report's flawed and they don't like what I had to say.
01:01:36.780 You know, that's fine.
01:01:37.680 But they can't deny that there are lots of Khalistan extremist and terrorist organizations that have been prescribed by the UK, by France, by Canada, by America, that some of the stuff that you can find quite easily on YouTube and other social media will make a hair curl.
01:01:58.880 I mean, it's really obnoxious and violent stuff.
01:02:02.500 And so, you know, they're on thin ice if they think that there isn't a problem.
01:02:07.780 There is very much a problem.
01:02:08.900 It was the Khalistanis that blew up the Air India flight over, you know, until 9-11, the Khalistani extremists were the world's worst aviation terrorists, which is why they were prescribed as a terrorist organization. 0.91
01:02:21.920 I mean, they don't like being reminded of these things.
01:02:25.220 It was, you know, it was Sikh extremists that assassinated Indira Gandhi.
01:02:31.340 It was Sikh extremists that tried to, you know, cut the throat of General Bra, a Sikh, I think he was a general in the Indian Army, who was shopping in London.
01:02:44.000 You know, they tried to cut his throat.
01:02:45.540 This is like 10 years ago.
01:02:47.880 So, you know, they can't deny that there's an issue.
01:02:50.780 So we've got a few of them.
01:02:51.940 Yeah.
01:02:52.260 Quite a few.
01:02:52.880 Quite a few.
01:02:53.820 When you say how many, quite a few, yeah, very same question.
01:02:57.400 Well, I've been surprised at just how many.
01:03:01.340 So if you were to look up, even as recently as this year, protests outside the Indian embassy, hundreds and hundreds of Sikhs with the Khalistani flags wearing, you know, Khalistan Zinzabad T-shirts and things like this.
01:03:21.920 Hundreds of them protesting outside the Indian embassy, even pulled down the Indian flag outside the Indian, caused a huge diplomatic uproar because they, you know, the Indian embassy said, you know, our police didn't do enough to sort of intervene.
01:03:37.000 I think pulled down the Indian flag and replaced it with a Khalistani flag.
01:03:41.160 I mean, it would be like, I mean, I don't know what it would be like.
01:03:44.540 Imagine back in the 80s, some Irish nationalists going to Delhi and going to the British embassy in Delhi and pulling down the British flag and replacing it with the Irish one or the, you know, the IRA flag.
01:03:57.820 I mean, it would have that same emotional kind of response that we would have.
01:04:02.380 That's exactly how they're having it.
01:04:05.920 And it's a very live issue.
01:04:08.040 And, you know, I know that my report was probably the first to really put that in the public domain to say, here is a big issue.
01:04:17.560 Now, to answer the second part of your question, yes, there is an issue with black nationalists.
01:04:22.060 No one likes to talk about it, but there are some really wacky groups.
01:04:28.900 And they, interestingly, prisons are quite fertile places for these groups.
01:04:35.180 Nation of Islam, who you'll be familiar with, mainstream Muslims would say they're not Islamic.
01:04:43.040 Then there's a group who, they believe pretty much the same thing, but think that they're Jewish.
01:04:50.500 I think they're called the...
01:04:51.820 The black Hebrew Israelites or something.
01:04:54.120 Black Hebrew Israelites.
01:04:55.220 Yeah.
01:04:56.520 Mainstream Jews would say they're not Jewish.
01:04:59.280 And then there's a Christian group.
01:05:01.420 And they all pretty much believe the same thing.
01:05:03.300 And most mainstream Christians would say, but they know they're not. 0.99
01:05:06.020 And they're pretty racist and they're pretty obnoxious. 0.98
01:05:10.400 And, look, I'm not a psychologist. 0.95
01:05:12.180 I can have an armchair view of perhaps why some of this might happen.
01:05:17.840 But, you know, they're in there.
01:05:19.340 I mean, again, all I'm saying in the report is it's not a major problem,
01:05:23.040 but it's something government just needs to have their eyes on, particularly in prison,
01:05:26.220 because there's a lot of...
01:05:27.260 Well, this is what I was going to ask you.
01:05:28.360 We've got to wrap up because we're running out of time.
01:05:30.120 But one of the things that does seem to be a problem,
01:05:33.620 and this isn't specific just to Islamism, but forced conversion,
01:05:37.680 you know, the prison population seems to be disproportionately very religious,
01:05:42.440 and that is kind of suspect to me in many ways.
01:05:45.300 So talk to us about that.
01:05:46.500 Yeah, so it is.
01:05:47.780 If you were to take the prison population as a whole,
01:05:50.100 it is much more religious and has a much higher number of faith than the rest of the country.
01:05:57.420 Which goes counter to your argument about how faith is good for society.
01:06:00.980 But, Karen, I'm just joking.
01:06:02.600 I think some of them will do it because they want to have belonging when they're in prison. 1.00
01:06:12.700 It was a shit joke. 0.99
01:06:13.640 That's all that it was. 1.00
01:06:14.640 That's all that it was.
01:06:14.920 And I think...
01:06:15.720 But when they're in prison...
01:06:18.200 So there's this idea, there are some wings,
01:06:20.020 and I did a lot of prison visits when I was doing the evidence gathering.
01:06:25.080 And they're grim places.
01:06:26.440 I mean, you know, prisons are not nice places at all, you know.
01:06:29.220 And the prison staff, I mean, it's a horrible job,
01:06:32.640 and I'm, you know, I'm glad that someone's doing it.
01:06:36.100 But you go on some wings, and it will be like a Muslim wing, 0.85
01:06:38.560 and it will be a convert or get hurt.
01:06:40.440 You know, there will be a...
01:06:42.440 And most, by the way, most...
01:06:45.440 The vast majority of mainstream British Muslims would be, you know, horrified by this.
01:06:52.340 They would say, these people are not...
01:06:53.880 They're not speaking for us, you know.
01:06:56.440 And I buy that.
01:06:58.760 These are...
01:06:59.420 It's basically gangs.
01:07:00.760 These are, you know, you're in the Muslim gang, 1.00
01:07:02.720 and you'll get protection from... 0.94
01:07:05.180 Or, you know, you're in the Islamist gang, 0.88
01:07:06.540 and you'll get protection from the others. 0.91
01:07:10.920 These are horrible, horrible places.
01:07:12.640 But convert or get hurt.
01:07:13.960 There'll be a copy of the Koran on your bed,
01:07:15.600 and you'll be expected to, you know, succumb.
01:07:19.100 And they're not the only ones.
01:07:20.300 I mean, so there will be other...
01:07:22.160 As I say, you know, there is some evidence to say that, you know,
01:07:27.740 some of the black supremacists will be doing similar, you know, similar exercises. 0.71
01:07:33.380 But the whole notion of...
01:07:36.360 You know, I'd encourage your viewers and your listeners to download the report and read it.
01:07:42.060 It'll take about eight hours because it's quite a big thing.
01:07:45.080 But there's quite a lot that I have to say about faith in prisons and, you know,
01:07:53.620 how chaplaincy in prisons can be a really positive force for good.
01:08:00.020 And I'd like to see government make some, you know, make some changes to that as well.
01:08:04.980 Colin, it's been an absolute pleasure.
01:08:07.300 The hour has flown by.
01:08:08.360 We always end our interviews with the same question,
01:08:10.840 which is what's the one thing we're not talking about as a society that we really should be?
01:08:15.320 Now, I have pondered this, and there were two answers I was going to give.
01:08:19.540 So I'm going to give you two, okay?
01:08:21.720 Allow me.
01:08:22.320 I think the first is the issue of critical minerals, rare earth and critical minerals.
01:08:28.000 This is the new oil, right?
01:08:32.240 Like 70% of Europe's critical minerals, the stuff that we need for our mobile phones
01:08:38.060 and for, you know, our technology and the big wind farms and things like this,
01:08:46.580 70% of them are on the eastern border of Ukraine,
01:08:51.940 just, you know, I'm not surprised Russia wants it.
01:08:57.280 So critical minerals, rare earth minerals and the supply chain of them.
01:09:02.860 China have got us by the short and curlies on this, not just us, the whole of the West. 0.96
01:09:09.620 America has been asleep, Europe has been asleep, we have been asleep, we need a healthy supply chain of these critical minerals to make stuff.
01:09:23.060 And at the moment, nearly all of that supply chain, 90% of it comes through China, either the processing or the mining of it.
01:09:31.060 And that's a massive problem, because it means that they want to turn it off, we've got a problem.
01:09:36.180 And then the second one is similar.
01:09:40.980 It's state-sponsored industrial espionage.
01:09:45.960 You know, the amount of IP that we have in this country, whether it's in pharmaceuticals or whether it's in defence or whether it's in, you know, high tech or that kind of thing.
01:09:55.140 Intellectual property.
01:09:55.920 Yeah, intellectual property, that is being stolen by other states, is eye-watering.
01:10:03.940 And, you know, my next report is actually on this subject, on state-sponsored industrial espionage.
01:10:10.920 And the more I've looked into it, the more I get into it, the more I think this is a massive, massive problem, and people should be talking about it.
01:10:16.920 But, no, we're going to fixate with, you know, the latest, I don't know, whatever tabloid issue there might be.
01:10:25.180 There are really big, important issues that are happening right under our nose, whether it's critical minerals, whether it's state-sponsored industrial espionage and other things.
01:10:33.960 A lot of your guests have said other interesting things as well.
01:10:36.560 And we've got to focus on that.
01:10:38.060 We've got to get to grips with it.
01:10:39.460 Colin Bloom, thank you very much.
01:10:40.900 Head on over to Locals, where we continue the conversation with your questions.
01:10:44.460 I think this imam said.
01:10:52.600 Leo's got the video of it.
01:10:54.800 I'm glad this is on your, um, this is only your...
01:10:57.080 A little bit.