TRIGGERnometry - Vaccine Injuries： Why Can’t We Be Honest？ with Rav Arora

00:00:00.240 To me, there's a lot of kind of love and compassion driven by extreme psychotic fear.

00:00:07.840 And I was very alarmed at how many vaccine injuries I was hearing about,

00:00:12.860 particularly the myocarditis in younger boys, younger men, the heart inflammation,

00:00:17.740 and the absolute gaslighting on that specific topic.

00:00:22.140 And so for me as a journalist at that point, that was a step way too far.

00:00:26.580 Well, what's been shocking is it was mainstream media, but also alternative media

00:00:31.500 that was kind of propping up this narrative.

00:00:34.840 We have caused irreparable harm in public trust, in people's health.

00:00:39.540 We have destroyed the reliability of these institutions.

00:00:43.440 We have actively harmed untold numbers of people, particularly young men and women,

00:00:49.800 the complete failure on the part of public health to be honest about, again,

00:00:54.800 who this product was for and who had benefited.

00:00:57.900 It was completely reckless.

00:01:09.400 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:12.160 I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:13.340 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:01:14.320 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:19.280 Our brilliant guest today is a very successful young journalist, Rav Arora.

00:01:22.320 Welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:23.300 Hey, it's great to be here.

00:01:24.800 Great to be traveling in the UK, seeing some new culture.

00:01:27.840 I mean, that is one way of putting it, mate.

00:01:29.700 Yeah.

00:01:30.320 He was in Cardiff, mate.

00:01:31.620 So what culture he saw, I don't know.

00:01:33.280 But anyway.

00:01:34.280 Feeds drinking.

00:01:34.920 It's fun, yeah.

00:01:35.520 Little cousins who are, you know, bred from the same cloth, same kind of Indian background,

00:01:39.640 but different accents, certain cultural similarities,

00:01:42.600 but still some differences in terms of just communication and outlook on life.

00:01:47.300 It's very, very, very interesting to see the differences.

00:01:50.000 Yeah.

00:01:50.320 Well, it's interesting going over to the US as well.

00:01:52.620 And because we all assume that because we speak the same language, the culture is the

00:01:56.300 same, actually.

00:01:57.060 It's very, very different in both countries.

00:01:59.740 But before we get to the stuff we wanted to talk with you about, tell everybody a little

00:02:03.820 bit more about your background.

00:02:05.040 Who are you?

00:02:05.520 How are you, where you are, what's been your journey through life that brings you to be

00:02:08.860 sitting here talking to us?

00:02:10.340 Yeah.

00:02:10.520 So I graduated from high school in 2019.

00:02:13.560 Didn't know what the fuck I was doing afterwards.

00:02:15.380 Didn't have a clear plan.

00:02:17.040 I was always kind of all over the place, kind of ADHD kid, all these big ideas and having

00:02:21.780 a very strong imagination, but not having a firm grounding of who I am and what I want

00:02:26.080 to do.

00:02:26.940 I was into hip hop music.

00:02:29.340 I was into certain kind of literary genres, like, you know, reading certain kinds of books.

00:02:35.240 I was into philosophy, but that was kind of it.

00:02:37.940 I was also into political philosophy and kind of paying attention to what was happening

00:02:42.240 in the culture.

00:02:44.500 But then it was 2020 when George Floyd happened, tragic incident, and then the BLM uprisings,

00:02:50.300 the riots, protests, and all the racial consciousness that was, you know, growing after that.

00:02:56.560 Then I published a viral article in the New York Post.

00:02:59.300 It was kind of my first entry into journalism about the fallacies of white privilege and the

00:03:04.860 toxicity of identity politics.

00:03:07.060 In that piece, I was talking about my background as an ethnic minority who has experienced racism

00:03:12.160 growing up when I was very, very young and how I view a lot of the identity politics discourse

00:03:17.360 as an extension of that, kind of in this positive, sort of misleading, kind of liberal light,

00:03:23.540 but actually reinforcing certain kinds of stereotypes and views on race that I think are actually

00:03:28.940 backwards.

00:03:29.340 And so when I started that, that just kind of opened up this new world for me to explore

00:03:34.700 these new ideas.

00:03:35.940 And then I wrote another article about BLM.

00:03:38.840 I was very much interested in policing and criminal justice.

00:03:42.380 And so that got me through to doing some reporting virtually on what was happening in Minneapolis

00:03:48.320 after George Floyd, the massive uptake in homicides and how the media wasn't covering that at all.

00:03:54.200 And then the overall nationwide homicide increase in the United States, that was kind of one

00:04:00.120 of my niche topics.

00:04:02.100 And then, yeah, that just became something that I was exploring in the New York Post and

00:04:06.700 Quillette, many of these places, criminal justice, race issues, some of the gender stuff as well.

00:04:12.700 Particularly, I was looking at differences in outcomes between, you know, quote unquote,

00:04:19.440 privileged white people and ethnic minorities and finding across the board that this simplistic

00:04:24.380 narratives of white supremacy or systemic racism were not actually in line with the data in places

00:04:30.620 like the U.S. where you have ethnic female groups out earning white men now over the past couple

00:04:37.280 of years, like, you know, women from Pakistan, Lebanon, India, Thailand, you know, now having

00:04:42.860 larger earnings compared to white men and this kind of breaking down these simplistic

00:04:47.640 intersectionality, you know, ideas and whatnot.

00:04:50.240 So that was going on for a couple of years.

00:04:52.500 And then COVID happened or COVID was already going on.

00:04:55.280 I remember that.

00:04:56.960 COVID was going on.

00:04:58.100 I'm trying to forget it.

00:04:58.900 Yeah.

00:04:59.240 And I was not paying attention at all to what was happening with COVID.

00:05:02.620 Like, you know, cases are rising, cases are falling.

00:05:04.500 I knew that I was not at any kind of grave risk and most of my family members were fine.

00:05:11.120 But then this is kind of how the new phase of journalism started during the vaccine mandates,

00:05:16.540 which we can talk about.

00:05:18.400 That suddenly when the mandate started being enforced for the COVID vaccines, that suddenly

00:05:24.940 for me was this big awakening on what was really going on.

00:05:27.940 And that kind of led to my current journalistic interests in pharma and, you know, health

00:05:35.000 policy, the FDA, the CDC and misinformation surrounding our health.

00:05:39.760 That's kind of the focus these days.

00:05:42.100 And you've launched a podcast with Dr.

00:05:44.100 Jay Bhattacharya, who's a former guest of ours, who we're big fans of.

00:05:47.400 But let's talk about vaccine mandates, because one of the things that's interesting to me is

00:05:50.900 we obviously have a global audience.

00:05:52.940 This is people all over the United States, the UK and the rest of the Anglosphere and

00:05:57.400 beyond.

00:05:58.240 And whenever you talk about anything to do with COVID, we all assume that everybody else

00:06:03.300 had the same experience.

00:06:04.560 But actually, that's completely untrue.

00:06:06.600 I mean, we have Canadian fans who are still writing into us and telling us about restrictions

00:06:10.560 that they're still having to put up with in Canada, whereas in many other countries,

00:06:14.980 obviously, it's completely over.

00:06:16.680 And that was the case throughout the pandemic.

00:06:18.440 So when you talk about vaccine mandates, where are you talking about and what actually

00:06:22.760 was happening?

00:06:23.700 Yeah.

00:06:23.920 So I was in Canada.

00:06:25.520 So that explains it.

00:06:27.540 That explains all of it.

00:06:28.360 Yeah.

00:06:28.800 You still got a bank account?

00:06:30.320 I do.

00:06:30.860 I do.

00:06:31.160 Recently, I actually heard of someone who actually also had their account frozen during

00:06:35.340 the Trekkers protests, which is very scary and very ominous.

00:06:39.520 Not if you've got the right opinions.

00:06:41.160 Yeah.

00:06:41.280 Well, yeah, exactly.

00:06:41.920 So I'm about an hour away from Vancouver, and this is August and September of 2021, when

00:06:50.080 the vaccine mandates were being introduced.

00:06:53.080 And suddenly, at that time, couldn't go to weddings, large gatherings, certain restaurants.

00:06:58.920 But most importantly, and most, for me, most troublingly, was not being able to exercise

00:07:04.880 at a gym for some period of time.

00:07:06.660 And I was actually lucky in the sense that the gym that I go to, the owner was actually

00:07:12.760 not exactly following all of the ludicrous public health decrees.

00:07:16.660 So he kind of kept things going.

00:07:18.400 But those were the mandates being shoved down our throats, was you can't go to a gym, can't

00:07:22.740 go to certain restaurants or gatherings, can't play certain recreational sports if you're

00:07:28.840 not vaccinated.

00:07:29.460 And at that point, just completely with an open mind, open eyes, looking at the data

00:07:36.220 at that point, like, okay, is this something that I need?

00:07:39.580 Is this safe and effective?

00:07:41.420 Is this something that's going to help me and grandma and grandpa?

00:07:44.500 And the conclusion at that time was grandma and grandpa, you know, get the shots.

00:07:48.920 You know, they're obese, have certain health issues.

00:07:50.760 But for me, it was like, makes absolutely no sense at that point to get vaccinated, given

00:07:55.940 how young I am, given also at that point, some of the confusing and kind of unknown, but

00:08:02.960 alarming signals on heart inflammation, myocarditis.

00:08:06.600 So I decided not to get the shots.

00:08:08.500 And as a result, I couldn't leave the country, couldn't travel to the US, the UK, couldn't

00:08:15.200 visit relatives in India.

00:08:16.340 We were just kind of landlocked and frozen because of these vaccine mandates that, you

00:08:22.340 know, these vaccines weren't stopping, you know, the transmission.

00:08:24.680 It didn't make sense to have these border restrictions when the virus was not isolated in certain

00:08:30.980 countries versus others.

00:08:31.900 It was a global pandemic and the vaccines weren't stopping transmission.

00:08:35.320 Yet, this was kind of the narrative.

00:08:37.620 And if you looked, there's some reporting done later in with Barry Weiss on her substack

00:08:43.220 revealing kind of how this happened.

00:08:45.460 It was all very telling about how this was enforced.

00:08:49.240 Like the Canadian government, if you look at some of the behind the scenes emails that

00:08:53.980 were leaked and there's some good reporting in the free press with Barry Weiss, it showed

00:08:59.840 that the, you know, the health minister, the transportation minister, like they were all

00:09:04.660 operating from we want to impose vaccine mandates and we need to find some data to justify it.

00:09:11.400 If you look in the emails like, hey, what's the data on how vaccines could help with stopping

00:09:17.100 the spread of COVID?

00:09:18.080 Like they started from that place rather than what should have been the case was here's a

00:09:22.000 really effective vaccine that could stop transmission.

00:09:24.300 Now let's, you know, it still wouldn't make sense.

00:09:26.660 But they were operating from this narrative of this is what we have to enforce and we need

00:09:31.700 compliance.

00:09:32.180 And so for me as a journalist at that point, that was a step way too far and it didn't make

00:09:39.280 sense for me, didn't make sense for my brother at that point to, you know, get the vaccine.

00:09:43.480 Then I started to go deeper and deeper into what was going on and I was very alarmed at how

00:09:50.580 many vaccine injuries I was hearing about, particularly the myocarditis in younger boys, younger men,

00:09:56.160 the heart inflammation and the absolute gaslighting on that specific topic.

00:10:02.240 I mean, real cases of vaccine injuries, people, you know, young people and older people as well.

00:10:08.840 And I can share one example on my substack of a 38-year-old law enforcement member in my area,

00:10:16.100 also of South Asian background, who after his second Pfizer shot almost died due to the adverse

00:10:23.140 cardiac impact of the vaccine. And thankfully his girlfriend called the ambulance because he

00:10:27.440 thought he was going to be fine or he ate something wrong. But the ambulance arrived.

00:10:32.140 His heart rate was something crazy, like 186 or something crazy like that. Went to the hospital,

00:10:37.140 got immediate care. It was from the vaccine, the cardiologist said. But for someone like him,

00:10:42.960 and there's many, many cases like this, didn't need the vaccine, you know, healthy guy, in his case,

00:10:48.100 very, very fit, exercising at a gym. But the mandate, top-down mandate from the

00:10:53.020 Trudeau government was all federally regulated industries, all people working for the government,

00:10:58.360 including law enforcement, had to get the shots. And that's, you know, in the US, that's early on

00:11:04.000 first where we were hearing about some of the vaccine injuries and the myocarditis signals was

00:11:10.520 from the military at first, which implemented the vaccine mandates because, you know, they're

00:11:15.620 responding to global threats and potentially have to fight. And a lot of things are on the line.

00:11:20.200 We were getting a lot of stories about the myocarditis from them because they're,

00:11:25.420 not surprisingly in retrospect, predominantly healthy, younger, you know, male individuals

00:11:31.540 serving in the military. And so when I started writing about this, and we can, I guess, get into

00:11:36.500 some of the suppression. So I wanted to write about these stories, but hearing about these vaccine

00:11:42.900 injuries and being like, hey, these are real issues and they're not being covered in the New York

00:11:48.060 Times or CNN. There's not adequate coverage. And obviously, COVID is still, you know, a real threat.

00:11:54.740 And we could talk about that, about, you know, how the public was kind of misled on kind of who was

00:12:00.900 at risk. But there were cases of vaccine injuries. And at the time, for me, again, as someone who,

00:12:06.620 you know, still has like an open mind on, you know, whatever's going on, at that point,

00:12:11.160 August, September, October of 2021, I was hearing about more cases of vaccine injuries than people

00:12:18.060 dying from COVID in my area. I was hearing about multiple young males, especially who were ending

00:12:24.340 up hospitalized or ending up with, you know, myocarditis. You know, it doesn't mean that people

00:12:29.220 weren't dying from COVID. You know, that was another issue. But there was this very real issue that I

00:12:33.740 wanted to cover as a journalist who previously has kind of covered these other issues that aren't

00:12:38.920 getting enough, you know, attention, you know, whether it's the, you know, the success of ethnic

00:12:43.320 minorities in the West, or whether it's the, you know, the utter, you know, neglect of the

00:12:50.040 inner city homicidal violence in places like Minneapolis and Philadelphia. And when I started

00:12:57.960 pitching these stories to publications that I was writing for, which I'm not going to name for a number

00:13:03.160 of reasons, but when I was pitching these stories about... Are they publications we would have heard of?

00:13:08.920 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. And what would they say in response?

00:13:12.820 Yeah. So, and this was just so shocking to me that this is the response that I was getting.

00:13:18.180 It was, time and time again, it was, we are a pro-vaccine publication. We're not going to publish

00:13:24.100 this kind of reporting. Our newspaper, our publication encourages vaccination. This may promote anti-vax hysteria.

00:13:33.600 It may promote vaccine hesitancy to actually write about these cases. You know, this may endanger people.

00:13:40.380 This may, you know, disincentivize people to get vaccinated. I mean, those are the responses from...

00:13:45.640 Do you have this in writing from them?

00:13:47.000 Yeah, so this is on my, yeah, yeah. So I quoted them on my substack, how mainstream and alternative

00:13:53.880 media outlets suppress my COVID journalism that's on the illusion of consensus with Dr. J, where I've

00:13:59.420 outlined specifically. But that's exactly what I was hearing from not only editors that I didn't know,

00:14:05.200 but editors that I had relationships with and editors who previously had published my work dissenting from

00:14:13.860 the mainstream views on race, gender, policing, criminal justice, identity politics. This was kind

00:14:20.740 of a line too far from them. And that for me was like, oh, wow. Like, I thought I'd already crossed

00:14:26.040 the line. I thought I was already, you know, uncancellable, already had taken the, you know,

00:14:31.600 the cancel culture Kool-Aid. But this time it was like, no, no, this is a line we can't cross.

00:14:38.220 This is something that we're not going to cover because we're a pro-vaccine publication and we're

00:14:43.640 not going to promote this. And that's what's kind of led to my migration on substack and being

00:14:48.160 independent, which wasn't preferred initially because I, again, I'm very scatterbrained. I have a lot of

00:14:54.500 ideas and I kind of like being in a collaborative setting and getting to write for, you know, an

00:14:59.200 editor or a publication. But for someone like me who deeply cares about the truth and wants to report

00:15:06.200 on issues that I think are important and are not being adequately represented in mainstream media,

00:15:12.400 that moment right there, you know, we're not going to publish this because it goes against the

00:15:17.480 narrative. Then I was like, okay, I'm out. And there were opportunities for many of these places to still

00:15:23.180 write about identity politics and whatnot. But I was like, no, no, this is, I want to follow the

00:15:28.380 truth and I want to go where I want to go. And if you're not happy with that, then I'll kind of go

00:15:32.360 on my own. Even if that means that I'll sacrifice, you know, financially, you know, there's certain

00:15:36.880 costs I'll have to bear, but that's kind of where I want to go afterwards.

00:15:40.740 And what do you think that actually says about the mainstream media that you can present

00:15:44.520 a well-researched piece of data and a well-written, because I've read your substats, they're very

00:15:51.880 well-written, piece of journalism, and you don't get accepted anywhere. What does that actually say

00:15:58.020 about the media that we have at the moment?

00:16:01.040 Yeah. Well, what's been shocking is it was mainstream media, but also alternative media that

00:16:06.900 was kind of propping up this narrative on, you know, vaccines being safe and effective for everyone

00:16:12.340 and there not being any kind of downside or the downside, you know, is, is trivial. It doesn't

00:16:16.880 matter. You know, that, you know, it, it begs the question of what, you know, what's leading to

00:16:23.020 that. I mean, what are the biases? What are the perverse incentives and financial interests at many

00:16:28.120 of these places? I mean, well, you said it yourself. I mean, if, if your definition of your organization

00:16:32.600 is that you're a pro vaccine publication, that's what they said. I mean, I don't see how that

00:16:37.160 conflicts with reporting that highlights some issues with vaccines, because surely you'd want the

00:16:42.100 public to be informed about the entire information about something like that, wouldn't you?

00:16:47.740 Yeah. Well, yeah, that, that's what you would expect. And that's been one of the major problems

00:16:53.060 with public health over the past couple of years, right? It has been not, you know, not being

00:16:58.080 transparent, but actively gaslighting the public on what's really going on with who's at risk

00:17:03.100 for COVID, for example. I mean, in retrospect, but this was known, you know, over the past couple

00:17:08.500 of years, you know, few months into the pandemic, that COVID was a serious problem for overwhelmingly

00:17:15.980 elderly and obese and immunocompromised people. Everyone other than that, people like myself,

00:17:22.780 people like yourself, assuming you don't have, assuming you're not dying tomorrow, hopefully

00:17:25.880 not. It, it was not the level of problem that it was being portrayed in the media. Absolutely

00:17:32.740 not. But the narrative always was, you know, you have to get the vaccine. This was, this is a big

00:17:39.880 risk for everyone, not just elderly people. And obviously, you know, taking the vaccine for, you

00:17:44.980 know, protecting other people as well. I mean, that, that alone, in retrospect, and this is part of my

00:17:51.600 collaboration with Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, is looking at some of these things and seeing that, you know,

00:17:57.260 we've known for throughout the pandemic, you know, a few months in that the infection fatality rate was

00:18:02.560 something like 0.02%, right? Dr. Jay was authoring some of these studies early on and looking at,

00:18:07.920 you know, what actually is the death rate for COVID. And in the media, you were hearing these

00:18:11.800 grossly exaggerated figures, 1%, 2%, or 0.5% infection fatality rate. But people like Jay and Dr.

00:18:19.500 John Unides, Dr. Martin Koldorf, the whole Great Barrington Declaration, they were showing that,

00:18:25.420 you know, this is, again, overwhelmingly a risk for, for certain groups, but not for everyone else.

00:18:29.960 For everyone else, it's, it's not this great big threat that is being posed in the media.

00:18:35.020 And then the vaccines come along, and then the gaslighting on vaccine injuries, and who's really,

00:18:41.540 you know, who's really going to benefit from this pharmaceutical product.

00:18:46.660 That, you know, for me as someone who, prior to that point, you know, was getting every vaccine,

00:18:55.040 you know, was listening to my doctor, it was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I thought, you know, my doctor,

00:19:00.180 I thought people in lab coats who have degrees in epidemiology and immunology that I don't have

00:19:05.580 are to be absolutely trusted, right? Because I don't know anything. I don't, you know, grade 12 biology

00:19:10.680 was a nightmare. I actually failed grade 12 biology. Probably shouldn't be announcing that.

00:19:14.120 But I did not have a good time in that class. But, but, but as someone who does not have that

00:19:19.740 experience, I, it's, it's, and this is, you know, some of the points that people have made

00:19:24.320 in opposition to some of the contrarianism is that you want to default to the experts, right? You want

00:19:30.360 to believe the experts because they actually know what they're talking about. Whereas I don't have a

00:19:34.940 degree in epidemiology. But one of the fatal problems that people in mainstream media and some

00:19:42.480 people in alternative media have made is, is thinking that the mainstream experts actually

00:19:48.440 converged on some foundational core principles on the pandemic when they absolutely did not,

00:19:54.740 right? The difference between Dr. Eric Topol, Nicholas Christakis, or Peter Hotez,

00:20:00.200 and Dr. Jay Bhattacharya and Martin Koldorf is absolutely massive. They fundamentally disagree

00:20:05.820 on the core points on vaccine safety, on vaccine effectiveness, on who's actually at risk.

00:20:12.820 They fundamentally disagree on some of these main points. Yet there's this assumption that

00:20:17.300 the mainstream scientists, they have one view, everyone else is quacks. And that's what's led

00:20:22.480 to a lot of the censorship, which we can talk about. But that kind of illusion of consensus,

00:20:26.200 which is the title of our substack, Dr. Jay and I, that's what's been such a pernicious force.

00:20:34.120 And awakening to that has been such a massive lesson for me is like, you know, these people

00:20:39.720 that I trusted so much in before in purveying the objective truth on what to do with my health

00:20:46.000 and my body actually were wrong about some very critical facts on, again, the vaccine side effects

00:20:54.380 on COVID, the death rates for COVID and who's actually being hospitalized. And that's kind of

00:21:01.920 greater informed my perspective on institutions and who to trust now, because there's been so much

00:21:07.200 manipulation and gaslighting on these very core topics.

00:21:11.360 So there's a lot to unpack there. Let's talk about vaccine injuries, because to me,

00:21:19.120 part of the problem is, it's become politicized. So I spend far too much time on Twitter. And it

00:21:25.080 seems that every time an athlete, and I'm a sports fan, has a heart attack. Now, that is something

00:21:30.180 that happened infrequently, but it has happened. I remember several athletes, several soccer players

00:21:35.260 have died, had a heart attack on the pitch. Mark Vivian Foe being a prime example a few,

00:21:39.400 well, about 20 years ago now, Czech Toyota, etc., had the same thing. This isn't an unknown

00:21:45.840 phenomenon. Now, to someone like myself, it seems to be happening more and more. The problem is,

00:21:53.220 is that it's been politicized. So some people want to see everything as a vaccine. And some people

00:21:58.540 were saying, well, actually, this could be COVID. We don't know if the COVID virus actually damages

00:22:02.940 the heart. So let's get into that. Sure. Yeah. What do we actually know? Yeah. So we do know that

00:22:09.420 for especially men under the age of 40, it's very clear now. But it's also clear for, you know,

00:22:16.760 people up to 50, 60, you know, and we can debate that. But it's very clear, at least for men under

00:22:21.600 the age of 40 or 50, the risk of myocarditis is far higher from the vaccine than from COVID.

00:22:27.460 Now, the population level, this is kind of the big gaslighting, is like, well, no,

00:22:30.480 the COVID causes higher rates of myocarditis than the vaccine does. And that's kind of true on a

00:22:35.860 population level. But that's not how you do medicine, right? You don't, you know, I don't

00:22:40.040 judge whether to get the vaccine based on overall on a population level, they're potentially being

00:22:45.340 higher myocarditis. Right. If there's 13% of the public that have diabetes, we don't treat you for

00:22:50.040 diabetes. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And there's some interesting distinctions that cardiologists like

00:22:54.920 Dr. Anish Koka, who runs a cardiology clinic in Philadelphia, have made between myocarditis from COVID,

00:22:59.920 which is very, very different and presents very differently than myocarditis from the vaccine.

00:23:04.480 Oh, really? I didn't know that. Yeah, well, because myocarditis from the vaccine is occurring

00:23:09.000 to very different people than myocarditis from COVID. And I'm not going to go into the nitty

00:23:13.940 gritty of what the differences are. But to put it kind of simply, it's the people getting myocarditis

00:23:21.420 from COVID, you know, their pneumonia, lung issues, multiple comorbidities, they might be on

00:23:27.180 death's door, serious issues going on with them. And then they also present, you know, elevated

00:23:32.400 troponin levels or other markers of cardiac injury on top of everything else going on. Right. So that's,

00:23:40.200 you know, people in their 70s or 80s, you know, they catch COVID, they're obese, they have all these

00:23:44.400 conditions, and now they're having heart problems too. Right. That is fundamentally very different from

00:23:50.520 myocarditis from the vaccine, which overwhelmingly happens. And, you know, it's hard to know what exactly

00:23:57.680 the risks are. And there's some interesting nuances, interesting nuances there that we can pick apart. But

00:24:03.560 it's, myocarditis from the vaccine is happening to healthy people who have very little to benefit from

00:24:11.360 the vaccine, people like myself, right, young males. And in terms of, you know, the uptick in myocarditis,

00:24:17.420 that's something that I've been very carefully tracking. And I wish I had kind of a bigger

00:24:22.380 platform, you know, like the New York Times or CNN to talk about this, because it's very, very

00:24:28.780 alarming. You know, early on, I was tracking different countries that have databases on

00:24:35.660 myocarditis rates year after year. Countries like, this is on my substack, France, Germany, Sweden,

00:24:43.160 Sweden, Israel, as well as some U.S. hospitals show massive upticks in myocarditis cases in 2021,

00:24:50.960 not 2020. So places like France and Germany saw 50 to 75% increases in myocarditis cases in 2021.

00:25:00.320 Okay. Sweden, also massive upticks. Like I said, some hospitals in the U.S. that have also tracked this,

00:25:06.420 and you talk to any cardiologist, and I've interviewed, you know, many of them,

00:25:09.860 they just anecdotally saw, you know, big upticks in, you know, younger patients coming in with heart

00:25:15.840 issues. And so, I mean, that's just indisputable that that was happening. There's one study that

00:25:20.680 was published in the scientific journal Nature, and that, I think that is one of the most interesting

00:25:27.600 data points, which showed, this was MIT researchers, and Dr. Rett Siflevi led the study,

00:25:33.340 and he tracked 911 calls before and after and during the distribution of the vaccine, because

00:25:41.560 Israel keeps a close database on health problems and on 911 calls. And he found just very, very clear

00:25:50.960 alarming correlations in, these are myocarditis cases happening in Israel, and then vaccines are

00:25:56.460 distributed, and then sudden spike in 911 calls for acute cardiovascular events. This is all peer-reviewed,

00:26:03.180 published in Nature. You have the first vaccine dose and the second vaccine dose, and you see

00:26:07.800 massive upticks in people calling in for cardiac arrest, acute coronary syndrome, acute myocardial

00:26:14.180 injuries, people coming in with chest pains, like massive uptick. And then there's been all this

00:26:19.020 oppositional response to the study, well, oh, it's just correlation. Well, it could have been something

00:26:23.220 else. It's like, dude, it's right there in the data. This was not happening before, and obviously

00:26:28.720 correlation is not causation. But when it's that crystal clear, right, vaccines are pushed, you know,

00:26:33.940 to the Israeli public, and then massive upticks in people calling in for acute cardiovascular

00:26:39.260 issues. I mean, that, you know, I look at facts like that, and my sort of objective, kind of

00:26:48.720 sober-minded side does not want to really believe that, and wants to kind of reject that. Like,

00:26:55.100 there must be something wrong with that. But if that is true, which it is, it's like we have caused

00:27:00.920 irreparable harm in public trust, in people's health. We have destroyed the reliability of

00:27:07.240 these institutions. We have actively, I mean, putting aside, you know, social media and the

00:27:12.100 political discourse, we have actively harmed untold numbers of people, particularly young men

00:27:18.640 and women with this vaccine, very, very clear that they did not need the vaccine, and they got it

00:27:24.440 because the FDA, the CDC, big pharma, you know, governments in Canada, the US and the UK pushed

00:27:31.340 these shots based on EUA emergency use authorization approval, cutting corners, and not actually being

00:27:38.320 honest about who this product is for and where it arguably makes sense, right? It was never that only

00:27:44.220 elderly people should get it, and here are the risks, and here are the unknowns, but it was always

00:27:48.500 everyone should get this thing, young people included, and not only dose one, dose two, dose three, but

00:27:54.100 in the US right now, the recommendation as of a few months ago, I'm sure it's still the same,

00:28:00.060 it was to get every individual the bivalent booster shot, which is shot number four, shot number five,

00:28:07.520 it depends on how you count it, but everyone, and they moved it down to six months old. Your six-month

00:28:12.500 old should get their fourth or fifth booster shot. Like, it makes no sense at all, and now the uptake

00:28:17.220 is very low too, right? The people getting their fourth or fifth shots is like five, ten percent. It's

00:28:21.580 very, very low, and among young people, it's basically zero, but this is what they're actively

00:28:25.820 pushing, and that to me is just, you know, incredibly just, you know, offensive to us as people. Like,

00:28:32.760 we want to care about our bodies, and we want to be very careful about, you know, being healthy,

00:28:37.280 and about, you know, living a long, healthy, happy life, but what's happened over the past couple of

00:28:41.860 years has been an absolute attack on our own autonomy and our own personal God-given health

00:28:48.040 that we, you know, we only have one shot at this, right? And if you're mass recommending, mass

00:28:52.760 prescribing interventions, vaccines that are harming young people's hearts, and again, this is

00:28:58.960 not, this is not everyone. It's still, if we're talking about risk ratios, it's something like one

00:29:03.100 in 2,000, one in 3,000 risk of myocarditis in young people. So, you know, so if you got 10 people

00:29:08.460 together and, you know, they all got the vaccine, I would bet that none of them got myocarditis

00:29:12.960 because it's a very small number. But when you multiply that on a population level, suddenly

00:29:18.340 you end up with hundreds and hundreds and thousands and thousands of cases of cardiac injuries

00:29:23.620 that were absolutely uncalled for and were not at all needed for the risk of the virus.

00:29:29.540 See, I agree with you on that. I think there's a slight danger when we're having this conversation

00:29:35.680 is that we talk about the vaccine. And the reality is there were lots of vaccine shots. There was a

00:29:40.520 Johnson & Johnson. There was an AstraZeneca. There was, you know, the Pfizer shot. And some of these use

00:29:46.540 different technologies. So can you tell us a little bit about each shot? For instance, the AstraZeneca was

00:29:53.080 withdrawn. Do we know which ones were more dangerous or problematic? Which ones were safer for certain

00:30:00.980 types of people, etc.?

00:30:02.080 Yeah. Yeah. So Johnson & Johnson was pulled for blood clots. AstraZeneca was also pulled for certain

00:30:08.980 side effects. I can't remember which one that one was for early on. I think it was, I think it might

00:30:15.940 have also been blood clots. But there's some interesting data by Dr. Christina Bell. She's a Danish

00:30:21.180 researcher. And Dr. Martin Kulldorff, a colleague of Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, he did this. He's one of the

00:30:27.280 foremost premier vaccine safety experts. And he did an interesting, you know, analysis of the different

00:30:33.820 COVID vaccines and what, you know, what the overall findings are. And, you know, in his analysis,

00:30:41.460 he's shown, and this is from this Danish researcher study showing that the adenovirus vector vaccines,

00:30:48.260 the AstraZeneca, Johnson & Johnson, as well as some of the other ones, they did decrease overall

00:30:56.280 mortality to some degree. But the mRNA vaccines did not. They did not decrease overall mortality.

00:31:02.540 And they did slightly increase cardiovascular issues, but there's still some confusion. There's

00:31:08.900 a lot that's unknown at this point on who actually legitimately needed the vaccine and how much,

00:31:16.120 you know, their lifespan was prolonged or reduced potentially. But what's clear, you know, Martin

00:31:23.560 Kulldorff has done great work on this, is that the mRNA vaccines, the adverse event rate was 1 in 800.

00:31:32.380 And this is from a study published in Vaccine by Dr. Freeman, Dr. Sander Greenland, who's one of the

00:31:38.700 foremost international biostatisticians in the United States, Dr. Kaplan, Dr. Peter Doshi, they published

00:31:46.300 this paper in Vaccine last year, reanalyzing the initial Pfizer and Moderna safety trials and looking

00:31:53.480 at serious adverse event rates. And they found an adverse event rate of 1 in 800 for the trials combined,

00:32:00.680 Pfizer and Moderna. And that is orders of magnitude higher than any other vaccine that we've ever seen,

00:32:05.700 according to their analysis. Most other vaccines on the market are on the scale of one or two per

00:32:11.640 million for serious adverse event rates. And previously, vaccines have been pulled for

00:32:18.220 adverse event rates far, far lower than what we're seeing with these vaccines, like the 1976

00:32:25.040 swine flu vaccine was pulled for a 1 in 100,000 serious adverse event rate. These vaccines,

00:32:32.980 according to this analysis, are 1 in 800. And that's not just myocarditis, it's menstrual irregularities,

00:32:38.740 it's blood clots, certain autoimmune issues, there's been some new reporting on potential retinal

00:32:45.240 issues with eyes and whatnot from the vaccine. But that is the overall finding is a 1 in 800 risk.

00:32:51.620 And according to their research findings, the overall serious adverse event rate from the vaccine

00:32:58.640 surpasses the reduction in hospitalizations from COVID as a result of getting the vaccine.

00:33:04.240 So on a cost-benefit analysis, they found that the vaccines actually cause more harm than benefit,

00:33:10.480 but they didn't have age-specific data from Pfizer and Moderna. So it could be the case,

00:33:16.080 and it might be likely, depending on who you talk to, that the vaccines on net for everyone over 60

00:33:21.620 could be net beneficial for that age group. But for, as you go lower down the age demographic,

00:33:28.440 it seems very, very likely, according to this rock-solid study, that the vaccines could have

00:33:33.720 been potentially net harmful for at least healthy people in their 20s, 30s, and 40s, meaning that

00:33:40.580 it's not that people are dropping dead everywhere from the vaccine, or that people are getting cancer

00:33:45.720 from the vaccine, but that on net, if you look at how many people were protected from the vaccine,

00:33:51.740 you know, let's say people, healthy people in their 20s and 30s, the actual rate of vaccine injuries

00:33:57.100 would be higher than the reduction in serious COVID outcomes. And so that study and all the

00:34:04.420 myocarditis, you know, data points, that, I mean, paint a very disturbing picture on what's been going on

00:34:12.000 with these vaccines. And again, I mean, I, you know, I'm talking to you guys about this,

00:34:17.180 and I, there's part of me that thinks, like, like, Rav, are you right about this? Is this

00:34:20.100 conspiracy theory? Is this just insanity? But it's like, no, these are peer-reviewed studies done by

00:34:24.500 the top vaccine safety experts. And I mentioned Martin Kolder, he did analysis then of, you know,

00:34:30.560 the study, and I've been looking at the sources for, you know, vaccine safety. And he's further,

00:34:36.220 you know, confirmed that, yes, these findings are fairly rock-solid. There's more research to be

00:34:41.140 done. And we're waiting on a few studies, like we're waiting on Pfizer and Moderna to release

00:34:46.420 their FDA-mandated studies on subclinical myocarditis. So myocarditis rates that aren't,

00:34:53.380 you know, falling under the official clinical diagnosis, but are subclinical, meaning, you know,

00:34:59.860 young people who have elevated troponin levels, heart palpitations, shortness of breath from the

00:35:04.820 vaccine that isn't clinical, but is subclinical and could have certain long-term implications for

00:35:10.240 you know, long-term, you know, cardiac health. And subclinical means that it doesn't need a

00:35:15.120 clinical intervention. It just needs monitoring. Yeah, well, depending on where you're at. So some

00:35:19.880 subclinical would mean, yes, monitoring, just rest. Others could mean, you know, certain kinds of

00:35:23.960 medications that you'd have to take. The standard intervention for myocarditis has been two to three

00:35:31.180 months, no physical activity, even, you know, walking, um, downstairs quickly is, um, you know,

00:35:38.960 it's recommended not to, to do those kinds of things. And then taking a variety of different

00:35:42.760 medications to, um, mitigate some of the, the side effects from, from the vaccine. Um, so yeah,

00:35:50.020 that's right. And so you, you mentioned the voice in your head that says, is this conspiracy? Am I right?

00:35:54.020 And I, I think we all have that voice to some extent, because these are serious issues that we're

00:35:57.880 talking about. And I wouldn't want people to come on our show or to go on other big shows and talk

00:36:04.060 about this stuff in a way that's, uh, unconstructive. Yeah. But what you are doing seems to me, and people

00:36:11.560 can go and check out all the studies that you're referring to. Absolutely. Is applying what is

00:36:15.940 actually the scientific method to what we're talking about here, because I was never one of these people

00:36:23.380 that thought the vaccine is unsafe, but I also never thought that it was safe in the sense that

00:36:30.600 no medical intervention is a hundred percent foolproof. And so it seems to me, it behooves

00:36:35.960 people to find out exactly what the risk benefit is for different groups, and then prescribe that

00:36:41.540 medical intervention on the basis of the trade-offs that we know to apply to those groups. Now people

00:36:47.740 will say it was an emergency, which I think is understandable actually, when you've got a global pandemic,

00:36:52.020 you might accept a risk profile that's different. But what you're talking about is something that

00:36:57.780 troubled me at the time, which is why was this pushed on everybody? And I'm curious to hear your

00:37:04.840 answer on that, because there are people who say, well, there's the profit motive, you know, it made

00:37:09.720 sense for the, for the pharmacological companies to push this out and get as many people to take it as

00:37:15.520 possible. That implies that people at those companies were prepared for people to die as a result, or,

00:37:20.580 you know, be injured as a result of these things being pushed, which is a serious allegation,

00:37:25.600 actually. There's also the potential explanation, which I am leaning to, in addition to the profit

00:37:32.080 motive being involved, is public health, it's not compatible with truth. If you want everyone to do

00:37:45.560 the thing you want them to do, which is what public health kind of is, or at least became during COVID,

00:37:51.500 you can't then go out and go on CNN when people have got five minutes a day and be like, well,

00:37:57.160 you should take this vaccine, but it might give you heart problems. A lot of people are gonna not take

00:38:02.080 it, right? So where do you think this comes from? The fact that these vaccines, which had some potential

00:38:10.740 risks, were pushed on people who, according to the research that you're talking about, didn't need

00:38:16.000 them, and in fact may have, on average, been, it may have been detrimental for them to take those

00:38:21.860 shots. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to get into the motives area, because this is where it gets very

00:38:26.460 controversial, because it's hard to get into these people's heads. Well, that's why I'm asking you.

00:38:29.300 Yeah, well, unfortunately, I don't have any, any, any mind tricks here. I can't read, you know,

00:38:33.340 Fauci's mind or Rochelle Walensky. I mean, the scale of, you know, what happened, there's been

00:38:38.840 so many revelations, even recently, of in early 2021, there's these leaked emails from a freedom

00:38:45.860 of information request, where Rochelle Walensky is asking Francis Collins and a couple of other

00:38:52.420 people about the phenomenon of breakthrough cases of COVID. So this is about January, February 2021.

00:38:59.120 They, in the email, she's acknowledging that there are breakthrough cases of COVID, meaning that

00:39:06.020 people have gotten the vaccine, yet they're still getting COVID after the point. She's acknowledging

00:39:11.060 that, yet February, March, April, May, June, she's going on CNN, MSNBC, and this is the head of the

00:39:18.560 CDC, Rochelle Walensky, and saying, you get this virus to become a dead end, it halts transmission,

00:39:23.760 when you knew a few months ago, this was not the case. And then there's other things like,

00:39:29.120 in, I believe, March or April, Rochelle Walensky, head of the CDC said, we've looked across millions

00:39:36.000 of cases of this vaccine being distributed, and we haven't found a myocarditis signal. We've looked

00:39:41.420 rigorously, but we haven't found one. And then later on, they finally acknowledged it. But at that

00:39:46.240 point, you know, it was clear that there was a signal going on if you were looking at the US military

00:39:51.100 in Israel. And so all of these things make it, you know, just very difficult not to go to certain

00:39:57.820 areas, which I would consider conspiracy. It's like, what really went on there? You knew that the

00:40:02.680 vaccines weren't stopping transmission. We didn't know it was safe. So what, you know, what was really

00:40:08.240 going on? And, you know, I'm inclined to believe some of the profit incentives. There are all the,

00:40:14.760 there are the political dynamics as well. You know, when, remember, most people may not remember, but,

00:40:21.020 you know, before Biden got elected, it was Trump pushing the vaccine under Operation Warp Speed,

00:40:28.180 trying to, you know, push FDA to approve this vaccine as soon as possible, because Trump's a

00:40:33.940 politician and he wanted everyone to get the Trump vaccine as soon as possible. It's my vaccine,

00:40:38.300 get the shots, everyone. You know, that was the whole narrative for him. And at that time,

00:40:42.380 you know, Kamala Harris, Joe Biden, even guys like Peter Hotez, if you rewind the tape, they were

00:40:46.800 saying, well, this vaccine is being approved far too prematurely. There could be safety concerns.

00:40:52.160 You know, we're not exactly sure about long-term efficacy. We should be very, very careful. Trump is

00:40:57.160 being, you know, reckless in pushing this vaccine so early. And then, you know, Trump loses, Biden gets

00:41:03.880 elected, and then suddenly everyone, Eric Topol, Peter Hotez, Kamala Harris, all these people suddenly

00:41:10.520 moved towards, well, now you have to get the vaccine. And if you don't get the vaccine,

00:41:15.100 then you're a right-wing, loony-toon idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about.

00:41:19.520 And we'll make you a second-class citizen.

00:41:21.340 Yeah, well, yeah, exactly. So, I mean, there's the profit incentives, there's the, you know,

00:41:26.460 the political side of things, which is very surprising still, because, you know, it was always

00:41:31.400 the left that was opposed to big pharma most, you know, vigorously. Yet, the political landscape,

00:41:38.100 to me, is so confusing. And, you know, I don't have as many years as you guys do. So, I mean,

00:41:43.000 I haven't seen historically what's going on.

00:41:45.940 No, but this is the thing that's happening right now, and you pointed out. The left, when I was

00:41:50.780 your age, I definitely would have considered myself on the left. In many ways, many of my views are still

00:41:56.740 on the left now. But the whole narrative of the left, it was for the ordinary person,

00:42:02.120 against big pharma, big government, big corporations. And now, these very same people

00:42:09.800 are pro-big pharma. They support banks cancelling individuals' accounts for having the wrong

00:42:16.420 opinions. And they want the government to control as much of your life as possible.

00:42:21.040 It's an extraordinary transformation that has happened in about seven years, literally.

00:42:26.180 And you would have observed it, even though you're quite young. It's happened in the last few

00:42:30.600 years. And it is remarkable. It really is.

00:42:33.500 I mean, it's actually not that hard to think about, you know, what those people believe,

00:42:40.740 people who are on the authoritarian side. I mean, the line between, you know, defending free speech,

00:42:45.900 defending freedom, and becoming authoritarian is not as big as people think it is. I mean,

00:42:50.760 it's not that hard to actually get there. I mean, you change a couple variables. Some people have

00:42:55.900 talked about hypotheticals. But it's like, you know, in many people's minds, and there were some

00:43:00.440 surveys early on during COVID, where you polled people, like, how many people are dying of this

00:43:04.720 thing? Who's dying of this thing? And it's like, early on, there were polls showing, well, 2% of

00:43:09.440 people are dying, 3% of people are dying, which are, by the way, those are appalling figures,

00:43:13.960 if that was true. But it was always 0.001%, 0.03%, something like that, with a sharp age gradient.

00:43:21.240 And then they racialized it as well, because more people of color were dying from it. And then that

00:43:25.600 became, and then the debate became more toxic. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, race got involved in

00:43:30.160 it. And so, you know, if that was true, if, you know, it's, again, it's not that hard to picture

00:43:36.580 what these people were thinking, you know, many people in the public who became tyrants overnight,

00:43:41.380 right, they're looking, oh, my God, maybe 4% of people are dying of COVID. Oh, my God, this is a

00:43:46.120 threat to me, not just grandma, but actually, you know, to young people as well. And here's a vaccine

00:43:50.400 vaccine that, you know, is being recommended by the CDC and FDA. I mean, why wouldn't you trust them,

00:43:55.680 right? Like, you know, what do I know about epidemiology or immunology? In the same way,

00:44:01.600 and this has been kind of a fundamental error on many people's parts, is, and then this is

00:44:06.780 understandable, but it's been an error nonetheless, is treating the FDA, the CDC, Pfizer, and Moderna,

00:44:13.780 you know, like you would similarly treat your dentist, right? You go to your dentist, and I never

00:44:18.300 protest, or now I'm thinking maybe I should question a little more, but, you know, I just

00:44:22.400 got dental work done recently. It's like, I don't, like, question my dentist and be hyper-skeptical

00:44:27.120 about, oh, you know, is this actually really safe, or pulling out this cavity, or, you know,

00:44:31.020 what kind of treatments am I getting for my teeth? I mean, what's really going on there?

00:44:36.140 I just kind of trust, you know, my dentist. But, you know, COVID has revealed, you know, the

00:44:42.380 fallibility of many of these experts. I mean, even like my family doctor, for example,

00:44:47.580 and this kind of ties into some of my newer work to some degree, is like, you know, I

00:44:52.140 go to my family doctor, and I'm someone who's struggled with a lot of mental health, you

00:44:56.640 know, issues, as many people have. Things like ADHD, chronic anxiety, chronic pain, certain

00:45:03.660 kind of depressive symptoms as well. It's like, go to my, you know, go to my family doctor or

00:45:08.320 go to a psychiatrist, which is, you know, the societally approved, you know, pathway to get

00:45:13.980 healing and treatment for whatever issues I'm experiencing. And I'm actually not being

00:45:18.760 served what I need, right? I go to my doctor, here's some pills for your anxiety, here's

00:45:23.080 some ADHD medications, you know, here's some stimulants, because you can't focus, right?

00:45:27.720 Which, if anyone knows ADHD, which is being, there's some interesting discussions about it

00:45:33.580 being overdiagnosed. But someone living with very, very strong ADHD, it's very, very hard

00:45:38.820 to focus and to actually kind of stay in reality and stay grounded in kind of what's happening

00:45:44.040 in the present moment and not get too lost in my head. But for these very complex psychological,

00:45:49.760 spiritual, you know, intergenerational issues, the simplistic answer and solution is, you

00:45:56.920 know, here's medications, here's something you can take to feel better, rather than what's

00:46:02.920 your lifestyle like? What kind of traumas have you lived through? You know, what are your parents

00:46:06.920 like, how have they treated you? What's your relationship to your mom? And, you know, how

00:46:10.600 are you dealing with emotions and stress? Are you actually being open to, you know, stressful

00:46:15.340 circumstances? Or are you closing yourself in? I mean, this is something that I've, it's

00:46:20.200 interesting the way this kind of personal journey that I'm on, which I've been kind of careful

00:46:25.780 and not sharing too, too much. And potentially, in a few years, I might have something to share

00:46:30.000 about kind of what's been going on. But I've been on this personal journey towards finding

00:46:34.380 truth and healing in myself, and overcoming various traumas, nothing extreme, nothing violent

00:46:40.700 or crazy, but just, you know, certain internal issues that I've been grappling with, and realizing

00:46:46.840 that the mainstream answer, whether it's scientific, or even kind of sort of religious, is not actually

00:46:54.960 what exactly I need. But it's deep introspection, and understanding of kind of where my roots are,

00:47:01.900 understanding kind of how I came to be where I am, and, you know, doing various kind of therapies.

00:47:08.960 There's, I've been taking interest in psychedelic therapies, very interesting, which is not kind of

00:47:12.820 promoted by the big pharma side of things. But there's a whole world of, you know, mind-body

00:47:18.160 connection, understanding how trauma is stored in the body, and how we can actually overcome it.

00:47:25.220 And the big pharma solution just falls so dramatically short that it's preposterous that

00:47:31.260 we're actively medicating a whole generation, increasingly with, again, ADHD, depression.

00:47:38.020 There's now the Ozempic craze, the new weight loss drug is being promoted, FDA-approved.

00:47:43.320 Ozempic or semiglutide, Wegovi, there's all these alternatives. That's being pushed now for people

00:47:49.640 who are very, you know, obese and overweight as a solution to their problems. And now it's kind of

00:47:54.800 coming out more and more. There was an article in CNN a couple days ago about how people are having

00:48:00.060 stomach paralysis, severe gastrointestinal issues from taking this weight loss drug, including,

00:48:06.380 I think it was Amy Schumer, comedian, I think, who talked about her unpleasant experiences.

00:48:12.480 But in my mind, we're moving so far away from kind of the source, kind of the basics of,

00:48:19.420 you know, emotions and, you know, the basics of, you know, healthy diets, you know, eating well,

00:48:25.140 exercising. We're moving away from that and just medicating and vaccinating our way through

00:48:29.120 everything and not being honest about, again, going back to COVID, like, who's actually at risk?

00:48:35.000 It's overwhelmingly obese people. And in the US, UK, and Canada, to a lesser extent,

00:48:39.800 obesity is absolutely an epidemic. In the US, 40% of people are obese, 10% of the population are

00:48:47.820 severely obese, meaning they have a hard time moving around. Right there, those people are

00:48:52.340 incredibly vulnerable to the flu, to COVID, diabetes, a whole host of issues. And the solution

00:48:58.720 to that, I mean, again, for some people, it may make sense to, you know, get the vaccine. But the

00:49:03.940 solution to that is losing weight, eating healthy, addressing traumas, addressing, you know, why

00:49:10.240 certain people are experiencing debilitating, you know, anxiety problems or depression, ADHD. I mean,

00:49:16.900 there's a lot of nuance to that conversation that's being completely missed by the mainstream

00:49:22.540 narrative, whether it's COVID, whether it's mental health. We're all, I think, moving away from,

00:49:28.900 from, you know, the source and kind of basic, simple solutions that are actually taking into

00:49:35.820 account the complexity of human beings and not just putting a Band-Aid mRNA vaccine or ADHD medication

00:49:41.860 on top of a whole host of personal and systemic issues in the way that we deal with health and the

00:49:47.800 way we deal with mental health problems. You know, it's such a profound point that what you're saying,

00:49:52.680 because I remember during the pandemic, you know, little things like, you know, if you have

00:49:57.540 darker, if you have more melanin in your skin, if you have darker skin, it's a good idea to take a

00:50:03.080 vitamin D supplement, because if you've got low vitamin D levels, you're not going to react well

00:50:08.040 to COVID. If you are obese, you know, you need to lose weight, because you're going to, you're going

00:50:14.760 to be at more risk of the virus. But we weren't told that. I guess the question that I really want to

00:50:23.160 ask now is, do you know how many people have died from the vaccine? How many people have been

00:50:30.080 seriously injured? How many people are in line to get compensation from their injuries as a result of

00:50:37.160 these, of these vaccines? Yeah. So for COVID, personally, I don't know anyone who's died of

00:50:42.860 COVID. And I've, you know, grandparents, you know, they got vaccinated, and I encourage them,

00:50:47.860 you know, to get the shots. In retrospect, it's still, so much is unclear, right? The vaccines were

00:50:53.840 approved under emergency use authorization, or they did not have decades of testing. So there's still

00:50:59.680 so many questions, right? And an emergency situation is very difficult, and you have to make

00:51:04.900 these pressing decisions on what to do as a public health institution. But, you know, obviously,

00:51:15.880 people died of COVID. I don't know of any personally. Again, doesn't mean they didn't.

00:51:20.140 I want to be very, very clear. There's always a voice in my head when I'm talking about this,

00:51:23.640 that's like, is this conspiracy or is this real? And it's like, no, no. I think what you should say

00:51:29.000 is, I don't think how many people you know who have died of COVID is particularly relevant to this

00:51:33.540 conversation. We know quite a lot of people died of COVID. We also know that quite a lot of people died

00:51:39.680 with COVID and were registered as having died of COVID. I mean, my aunt died of COVID, but she had

00:51:45.780 a stroke and had to be transported to hospital in an ambulance, got there unconscious. She was there

00:51:51.500 for a few days, picked up COVID and died of COVID. I think she was going to struggle anyway, with

00:51:56.980 respect. So there was a lot of those cases. However, a lot of people did die of COVID. I don't think

00:52:02.000 any of us would want to misrepresent that. But how many people, I think France's question is,

00:52:07.440 how many people, do we know how many people have been injured by vaccines? How many people

00:52:11.280 have died as a result? Yeah. To finish the loop on COVID, I mean, the best data that we have

00:52:16.520 is that among the overall death toll, so in the US, about 1.2 million people have died of COVID.

00:52:23.260 Right. From that total number, it's not all from COVID. It's about 30 to 40% of those cases are

00:52:29.800 absolutely incidental. And some of those cases that are logged in as from COVID are actually suicides

00:52:35.920 and homicides. Justin Hart on Substack has logged some of those CDC cases that, you know, people die

00:52:41.820 of a suicide, test positive for COVID. And again, it's like, I look at that and I'm like, please tell me

00:52:46.660 that's wrong. Please tell me that that is, someone can debunk that as misinformation.

00:52:50.560 No, no, it was happening. It was happening in this country as well.

00:52:52.920 Yeah. And then there's all the people, again, who, if you looked at the average, you know, age of people

00:52:59.680 dying of COVID and what their health was, it was like the average person dying of COVID had three

00:53:04.600 to four comorbidities, right? And in the ICUs, you know, 70 to 80% of people severely obese,

00:53:11.040 deficient, vitamin D, multiple, you know, comorbidities, right? Those were people that we,

00:53:16.260 you know, really should have focused on, not people like myself or people like yourself.

00:53:21.360 Glad to be left out of the conversation.

00:53:23.780 If you're listening, Ram pointed at me. He's looking at France and thinking, you might be in your borderline case.

00:53:31.760 So vaccine injuries.

00:53:33.180 Vaccine injuries. Again, the number of vaccine injuries, we don't really know. There's more and more data coming out.

00:53:39.740 There's a recent study in South Korea that proved beyond a doubt, and we already kind of knew this,

00:53:45.020 but this study really concretizes that there are, you know, potentially hundreds or thousands of people

00:53:51.740 that did die from the vaccine, from sudden cardiac arrest, from any kind of cardiac complication

00:53:58.300 that we don't really know because autopsies aren't regularly done. And so in South Korea,

00:54:03.600 they were looking at, you know, every case of vaccine injury because of their, the way their healthcare is designed,

00:54:09.200 and they were closely tracking the vaccine injuries, and specifically on the cardiac front,

00:54:15.560 and they found a very high rate of myocarditis, which we already, you know, knew. But they also found

00:54:21.160 many, many people who had died from the vaccine. I think they only found, well, only is not the right

00:54:27.660 word, but I think they officially approved something like eight cases of vaccine-induced deaths

00:54:34.980 related to cardiac issues. And that's only, the eight is only out of about, I think it was 60 to 70%

00:54:41.960 of their population used mRNAs, and they, and their population, you know, was smaller, and they excluded

00:54:49.140 a number of cases that they weren't sure about, so there were a bunch of other, you know, deaths after

00:54:52.880 the vaccine where they couldn't tell. A lot of these issues are very, very difficult, but at the very

00:54:57.340 least, there were, there are globally, there's cases in Canada and the U.S. where people did die from

00:55:05.260 the vaccine, healthy, you know, young people. That number on an absolute level is very, very small. People

00:55:12.760 aren't, you know, dropping dead like flies everywhere, but it did happen, and it happened as a result of the

00:55:19.420 complete failure on the part of public health to be honest about, again, who this product was for, and who

00:55:26.400 had benefited. It was completely reckless in the way that we, you know, imposed, you know, these vaccines

00:55:32.620 and injured so many people as a result of that. Many people still dealing with their injuries. Last I

00:55:38.600 checked- Do we know how many people? Well, I mean, it's impossible to know how many people, I mean-

00:55:43.100 You said so many people, so you must have a ballpark figure in your head. Yeah, well, so the study I

00:55:48.360 mentioned earlier, one in 800 is the rate. That is by far the most dangerous vaccine we've ever seen,

00:55:54.200 if that study is right, published in vaccine by leading researchers from Stanford, UCLA, and University

00:56:00.020 of Maryland. People can go look it up. I actually had the author on my podcast, and I grilled him for

00:56:05.540 like four hours trying to find holes in his study of like, maybe you did this wrong, maybe this was

00:56:10.140 wrong, and I couldn't find any. No one is willing to debate him. He's tried. This is Dr. Joseph Raymond,

00:56:15.860 one of the lead authors of the study. But that alone, the fact that, you know, the 1 in 800 rate,

00:56:23.740 this being the most dangerous widespread pharmaceutical intervention that's been released

00:56:29.020 to the public is incredibly scary, eerie, ominous. Like it's, this is what drives a lot of the conspiracy

00:56:37.900 thinking is things like that. Because when you've done, you know, so much harm, and you've not been

00:56:43.800 honest, you've not been transparent about the risks, people are going to question your reputation and

00:56:50.140 what you actually care about. And I'm not even willing to go to some of the darker places that

00:56:55.220 some of my friends do. And I'm not even like against that. Like there's so much that I don't

00:57:00.160 know. But there are people that, you know, believe that there were people who wanted to kill people or,

00:57:04.360 you know, you know, did want to harm others. To me, that's not likely. To me, there's, there's a lot of

00:57:11.520 kind of, you know, love and compassion driven by extreme psychotic fear, right? People who are

00:57:17.960 really, really afraid and genuinely wanted, you know, good for me and good for you. Like

00:57:23.120 so many people are dying of COVID. Here's an intervention. Just like you go to your dentist

00:57:27.980 or your family doc and you get your blood work done. This mRNA vaccine is the solution to our problems.

00:57:33.800 We don't want people dying. So everyone should get this thing. And it's, it's out of this deep,

00:57:39.340 I mean, in many cases, it is out of a deep love and compassion for other people. Like we want people

00:57:44.800 to be alive. We don't want people to, to die from this thing. But, you know, love and compassion is

00:57:51.020 nice. But when it's driven by this extreme fear and this complete, you know, disparity between,

00:57:58.040 you know, reality and what's being presented in the media. And we, and we know this, you know,

00:58:02.780 in my experience in the past with BLM and police shootings, right? And this is something that I,

00:58:07.240 I covered heavily at the time. And at that time, many of the people that I'm now very

00:58:12.180 displeased with and how they responded to COVID, you know, were aware of the, the, the, the,

00:58:20.800 the major difference between what was being presented on, say, police shootings and what

00:58:24.460 was actually happening, right? If you pull people on how many unarmed, you know, black citizens are

00:58:29.900 dying from police shootings, you know, they, they, if you, especially if you pull liberal people or very

00:58:34.640 liberal people, they, they overestimate that number by 10X, 50X, 100X, they think it's happening all the

00:58:40.320 time. They don't actually know what the facts are. And same with, with COVID, many people who,

00:58:46.820 we can talk about this more and more, you know, many people who I thought and who I still believe

00:58:52.300 are very reasonable and who I thought would be very rational and, and sober-minded in their approach

00:58:59.960 actually completely, you know, fell short. I mean, there, there was, sorry. Yeah, you go ahead.

00:59:05.140 Let me just stop you there because I think what we're doing here is we're also missing a part of

00:59:10.780 the argument. And the part of the argument is that the umbrella term of long COVID in that we don't

00:59:16.720 know what the long-term effects of COVID are going to be. There have been people who have had COVID and

00:59:22.040 it has ruined their lives to be brutally honest. They have developed symptoms, which means that they're not

00:59:28.400 been able to work, that their activities, that their way of life has been severely curtailed.

00:59:33.640 And what some people will say, and I put this question to you now is, hang on, we brought in

00:59:38.900 these vaccines because, okay, you're not, you may not die from COVID, but there are potential long-term

00:59:44.520 side effects that nobody in the medical community knows because this is a new virus. And this is one way

00:59:51.080 to ensure that you may not develop long COVID. Do you see what I mean? Yeah, you're saying the claim

00:59:57.420 that the vaccines protect against long COVID. Or reduce the chances of developing long COVID

01:00:03.800 symptoms, such as chronic fatigue, such as, you know, vascular conditions, et cetera, et cetera.

01:00:10.500 Yeah. I mean, long COVID is very complex and it's, there's been a few studies done. Dr. Marty

01:00:16.940 McCary has written about this, Johns Hopkins researcher at the Wall Street Journal, looking at the best

01:00:22.820 studies on long COVID. And there's no clear indication of, you know, infection versus getting

01:00:28.920 long COVID. And the best correlate that they found is people who are prone towards, wait for it,

01:00:35.240 anxiety, psychosomatic issues, people more prone to worrying, to overthinking things. And this is

01:00:41.140 something that I've tracked kind of in my own life as someone who actually suffers from mind-body

01:00:45.980 issues, as they call it, or psychosomatic issues, meaning you experience symptoms in your body,

01:00:52.460 whether digestive issues, chronic pains in various areas, tendinitis. And it's not actually caused by

01:00:58.300 anything structural, but it's caused by deep-rooted fears and anxieties. There's this vast literature

01:01:04.580 that's being advanced more and more. There's a great book, The Way Out by Dr. Alan Gordon,

01:01:10.540 an expert in chronic pain and psychosomatic issues, right? Many people who struggle with debilitating

01:01:16.940 fear and anxiety have severe digestive issues. Tendinitis, back pain is one of the most common

01:01:23.000 ones. And the solution to their problem is not back surgery or physiotherapy or, you know,

01:01:30.260 medications for the digestion, but it's actually to reprogram the way they perceive fear and the way

01:01:36.760 that they perceive stressful situations in life. And a lot of that is due to, you know, traumatic

01:01:42.720 experiences and, you know, behavioral conditioning from parents, right? If you have parents who, you

01:01:47.640 know, freak out very quickly and are very stressed out, then, you know, children are going to be more

01:01:51.940 prone towards experiencing reality in that same way and experiencing these issues. So long COVID,

01:01:58.900 I'm basically entirely convinced, is psychosomatic, is a psychosomatic phenomenon, meaning it's for most

01:02:05.520 people who are experiencing symptoms for weeks and weeks and months on end. Some of the root causes

01:02:12.380 are actually psychological rather than physical. But again, there's so much that we don't know.

01:02:17.520 There's a lot of research that we still need. There was one study that I should look deeper into,

01:02:22.240 but there was one study in France, I believe, where they looked at long COVID and they looked for

01:02:28.320 antibodies and they found that actually a lot of people said they had long COVID, but they actually,

01:02:33.920 you know, they weren't infected at that point or they were infected a long time ago or they had

01:02:38.800 lower or higher antibodies. Like, it really kind of spread, you know, spread across the spectrum.

01:02:44.200 There was no clear, like, these people had really bad COVID or these people had COVID recently and

01:02:49.200 they have long COVID versus people who had it a while ago. I mean, there's a lot of complexity there,

01:02:53.960 but I'm fairly convinced that it's kind of a psychosomatic disorder.

01:02:57.960 Sure. Well, Rav, we could talk for a lot longer and we will on locals, but we have to wrap up here

01:03:03.380 and ask you our final question in this section of the interview, which is, of course, as always...

01:03:08.560 Are you vaccinated?

01:03:10.240 I think we probably know the answer to that one. What's the one thing we're not talking about

01:03:14.980 as a society that you think we really should be?

01:03:16.820 Yeah. There's many directions I could go in. I mean, there are some spiritual and kind of

01:03:25.600 psychological things that I'm really tracking in my own life when it comes to, you know,

01:03:30.100 religion and the importance of that. I would say one of the things that we're not acknowledging

01:03:38.260 enough or something that I've been very, very surprised by and I'm now thinking more and more

01:03:43.600 about is to go back to our whole conversation about how so many... And we can talk more about

01:03:50.920 this on Locals if you want, but how so many reasonable people, so many rational people are

01:03:56.220 capable of becoming completely misled, authoritarian in some cases, and, you know, being quite delusional

01:04:05.520 about what's going on and then actively spreading, you know, misinformation. And there's one example,

01:04:11.420 if we can spend a minute if you want, one example of, it was Sam Harris on your podcast and he came

01:04:17.880 on and, you know, that whole interview went viral, which is very interesting. But after on your Locals

01:04:24.020 page where you were talking about COVID... Well, I said it at the time, people freaked out about what

01:04:29.340 he said about Trump and Biden. Actually, for me, the more controversial stuff was said on the Locals

01:04:35.660 topic when we were talking about COVID. Yeah. Yeah. And so that for me has been, you know,

01:04:41.120 very... So to take a quick step back, you know, again, being an open-minded person and going into

01:04:45.600 COVID and looking at, you know, what's really going on, you know, many places that I would expect to be

01:04:51.500 rational and sober-minded about COVID actually were very, very delusional. I mean, there was the

01:04:56.720 Colette phenomenon, which I've written for Colette. I have great respect for Claire. I think she's lovely

01:05:00.880 and she's a great person. But at the time, you know, Claire was writing, like, these are the

01:05:05.260 safest vaccines we've ever seen in Colette. It's like, what the hell are you talking about? At that

01:05:09.540 point, at best, we didn't know. There were suspicions to think that was wrong. At that point, there was

01:05:15.480 not enough safety testing on, you know, on efficacy. And at that point, it wasn't clear about myocarditis

01:05:21.420 to actually make those claims. And that's been vindicated now with, you know, some of the best research

01:05:26.280 showing that these are, again, the most dangerous vaccines we've seen in history. But then you have

01:05:31.380 Sam Harris on your show, who I have utmost respect for, like you, Francis. I use his waking up app

01:05:37.740 every day and recommend it to anyone, you know, really struggling with mental health issues and

01:05:43.140 interested in kind of deeper spiritual concerns. But he came on your podcast and you guys were talking

01:05:47.800 about COVID. And you asked him about, you know, the vaccines and all the disagreements with him and

01:05:53.220 Brad and Joe Rogan and all this stuff. And he told you guys, you know, whatever danger you're going to

01:05:58.600 put on the side of the vaccine, there's more danger with COVID. And for virtually all age cohorts, the

01:06:04.520 vaccine does not pose any significant danger. COVID poses more danger. And it's like, that is all completely

01:06:11.540 wrong. That is all false. There's no evidence to suggest that that is true. And I've told him, I've told him

01:06:17.960 this personally as an admirer of his, and I'm not going to reveal, you know, a private communication. But, you know,

01:06:24.400 I've went to him personally and said, hey, I love you, man. I've, you've taught me how to think. And you're someone

01:06:30.180 that I go to for reasonable, you know, interesting takes on complex topics. But this was, you know, completely

01:06:37.680 wrong. Like, you can't make statements this broad and sweeping and simplistic as, you know, whatever

01:06:43.960 danger is on the side of COVID. It's, vaccines are more dangerous. It's like, for who, first of all? For who? Are we

01:06:49.120 talking about my, you know, 65-year-old, you know, diabetic, obese grandpa? Or are we talking about me? And the best

01:06:56.140 research, again, shows that that is absolutely not the case on a population level. But people like Harris and, you know,

01:07:03.280 Colette, Claire Lehman, and many people in this alternative space that kind of become isolated and have, you know, kind of

01:07:12.460 moved away from some of the contrarianism. They, I mean, they, on COVID, it's been very surprising how

01:07:18.500 they really kind of fell off their horse and became unreasonable and delusional. And in some ways,

01:07:25.800 it's not that surprising given who they were trusting. So someone like Sam, you know, his sources

01:07:31.020 were, you know, Dr. Eric Topol, Dr. Nicholas Christakis, and to some extent, you know, perhaps the CDC or the

01:07:37.440 FDA. But those scientists got so many things wrong, right? Nicholas Christakis from Yale, you know,

01:07:43.300 he was supporting vaccine mandates. He thought 1% of people were dying from COVID when the rate was far

01:07:48.840 lower. People like Jay Bhattacharya and Martin Koldorf, they were far more in line with the most

01:07:54.980 accurate and compelling research on COVID than those people were. And still at this point, you're not

01:08:02.020 seeing the level of transparency and honesty that I would respect from some of these people, right?

01:08:06.640 And I suspect that some of that will come around, you know, to some degree. And there is the problem

01:08:11.280 of the whole RFK Jr. phenomenon and, you know, vaccines causing autism. And there's a lot of,

01:08:16.960 there's a lot that I don't know. And there's a lot that I know is bullshit, you know, when it comes to

01:08:21.240 conspiracy theories on vaccines and 5G and, you know, Wi-Fi or, you know, whatever. But I've just been

01:08:28.200 amazed at how many, you know, reasonable, trustworthy people on COVID, you know, just became completely

01:08:36.260 delusional about what was going on and have actually failed to live up to their principles of free

01:08:41.220 speech and, you know, figuring things out through conversation. I mean, that was always Sam Harris's

01:08:47.060 thing, right? It was about all you have is conversation. And that's what made someone like

01:08:51.360 Sam Harris so respected and, you know, revered by, you know, young intellectuals and thinkers like

01:08:57.280 myself was like, he'll go into the ring with, you know, a Muslim or Christian evangelist or a Black

01:09:04.760 Lives Matter supporter and talk about, well, this is what's actually going on and never being like,

01:09:10.020 well, I'm not the expert. I can't, I can't talk about this. People like Harris, the approach was

01:09:15.420 always like, we can use our reason and, you know, our cognitive faculties to actually come to some

01:09:22.160 ground truths about what's going on. But on COVID, it was this complete reversal from,

01:09:27.080 you know, engaging in conversation to, well, I'm not the expert, default to the experts. But at the

01:09:32.880 same time, these vaccines are really safe and effective and whatever danger is on COVID, you

01:09:37.740 know, the vaccines are far less, you know, dangerous and everyone should get it versus, you know.

01:09:42.860 I hear you. I hear you. I think, I think there are a lot of people who got carried away for some of

01:09:47.520 the reasons that you mentioned. I mean, fear is one of them. And I don't know about Claire or Sam

01:09:53.320 and friends and family or whatever. There may have been family or friends who are immunocompromised

01:09:58.080 or whatever. Yeah. I think I agree with you. Obviously, you know what we thought about the

01:10:03.540 whole thing. But I also think we, particularly with people like Sam and Claire, who've made a

01:10:09.120 really big contribution. Yes. Also to the way that we have conversations. I really respect them both,

01:10:14.060 even though we've had our disagreements and whatever. Yeah. There has to be a way for people

01:10:19.000 to be able to disagree, but also to get things wrong and to recover from that. And we live in an

01:10:25.720 internet age where that increasingly doesn't happen. So one of the things I'm keen to hold out for both

01:10:31.840 Sam and Claire is an opportunity to, to go, okay, well, look, we disagreed about that particular thing.

01:10:38.240 And it was a really important thing that we disagreed about. And yet you're still someone

01:10:44.040 of value. You're still someone with interesting ideas. You're still someone who's welcome in the

01:10:48.740 fold of, you know, the heterodox conversations. And maybe, you know, I know, for example, Claire

01:10:54.820 blocked me on Twitter because I criticized her over COVID and later she unblocked me and apologized.

01:11:00.240 You know, people can, can come back from things as well. And I think that's important to hold out

01:11:04.120 as a, as a thing that we all aspire to at least. Yeah. Cause you're going to get, you're 23 years

01:11:09.940 old. You're going to get things wrong. Believe me, 22, even worse. Yeah. You you've got, you've

01:11:15.000 got a lot of time to get a lot of shit wrong. I can tell you from my experience, we've got things

01:11:20.540 wrong. Everybody's going to make mistakes, no matter how smart you are, no matter how principled

01:11:24.880 you are. Sometimes you do the thing that you think is the right thing, but you were reacting

01:11:28.720 emotionally or whatever. And everyone's got their buttons, everybody. Yeah. So, uh, I hear you.

01:11:33.760 I actually agree with you on these two particular people, but I also think we really have to

01:11:39.040 try to create a space where people can come back. Uh, people, uh, absolutely people can

01:11:44.080 change their mind. People can, can be welcomed back and you know, for both Sam and Claire,

01:11:48.400 I wish them nothing but the best. And I, I really hope that they continue to make the contribution

01:11:53.280 they've been making today in this, in these conversations. Yeah. Yeah. We, we, we want to extend

01:11:57.040 love and grace and acknowledge that we're all humans. And there, and this is, you know, this,

01:12:01.520 this is why I think many people should stick to kind of what they really know. Like I never

01:12:05.600 talk about climate change. I don't talk about Ukraine, Russia. I know you do, Konstantin.

01:12:09.040 I think I saw your debate with Dave Smith. Very, very interesting. And I still don't know

01:12:12.960 what exactly is right. I was right. He was wrong. Oh yeah. Of course you were totally right.

01:12:19.840 But it's like, there's so much that we don't know. And I guarantee with absolutely everyone

01:12:23.840 listening to this, there are things that we are doing that we know that, that we don't know are wrong,

01:12:28.480 you know, and then this is from COVID on, like, what kind of water are we drinking?

01:12:32.720 What kind of shoes you're wearing? You know, what kind of health monitoring devices you should use?

01:12:36.560 Which medications, which therapies you should do? Is it, you know, veganism versus carnivore? I mean,

01:12:41.040 I got friends all across the spectrum, you know, advocating for their specific diet and their

01:12:45.840 supplements to, you know, work through their particular health problems. There's a lot that everyone,

01:12:51.360 you know, is getting wrong and that we are ultimately fallible. And, you know, we have our limited

01:12:56.160 capacities. So we have to be able, you know, on our part, as if we're talking about COVID,

01:13:01.840 certain things that have been vindicated, we have to be able to extend grace and mercy and love to

01:13:07.040 people that did get some things very wrong. But then there is that question of like, you know,

01:13:13.600 to what point when someone is so, so, you know, still grasping onto what they believe to be true and

01:13:20.080 not, you know, showing any signs of humility, it becomes more and more difficult. And it's,

01:13:25.120 you know, for me, the love is still there always for people that got things wrong and,

01:13:31.440 you know, were unreasonable in many ways. But at the same time, the clock is ticking and the

01:13:37.280 responsibility is, you know, is on them for saying, hey, I got this wrong. You know, I was wrong to,

01:13:43.360 you know, say that these vaccines were so safe and safer, you know, than COVID for everyone.

01:13:50.640 You know, you have to admit that and actually concede that those, you know, errors were made.

01:13:55.440 And you don't actually have to go all the way. I think that's some of the fear. There's some kind of

01:13:59.680 egoic attachment to, well, if I say that, well, then, you know, then I have to say ivermectin,

01:14:04.160 you know, super effective for everyone and vaccines are killing everyone and vaccines cause autism.

01:14:08.080 It's like, no, no, there is a middle way to actually take in this. There is a course you can take

01:14:13.040 where you don't have to go down the conspiracy route. You don't have to

01:14:16.800 actually, you know, believe things that are not true, but there is a need for humility. And

01:14:21.360 on COVID, unfortunately, again, many reasonable people kind of fell off their horse and were wrong

01:14:27.040 to trust very fallible and wrong experts like Eric Topol, Peter Hotez, the CDC, the FDA,

01:14:33.680 federal governments. They got that, you know, miserably wrong. And there is an opportunity to come back

01:14:38.960 from that and to acknowledge the big mistakes that were made. Agreed. Head on over to Locals

01:14:44.960 where we continue the conversation with your questions. What's the most effective way, and

01:14:50.480 you're actually quite good at this, I will say this, to communicate with someone when you happen to be

01:14:54.800 be from a different ideological divide or you're challenging the current consensus narrative.

TRIGGERnometry - August 13, 2023

Vaccine Injuries： Why Can’t We Be Honest？ with Rav Arora

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