TRIGGERnometry - ＂Victimhood is a State of Mind＂ - Ayishat Akanbi

00:00:00.000 Your full Great Outdoors Comedy Festival lineup is here.

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00:00:50.300 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:53.260 I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:54.680 I'm Constantine Kishin.

00:00:55.740 And this is the show for you if you want honest conversations.

00:00:59.000 with fascinating people.

00:01:00.900 Our guest today is a fashion stylist and writer, Ayesha Akambi.

00:01:04.300 Welcome to Trigonology.

00:01:05.340 Thank you for having me.

00:01:06.460 Oh, it is so good to have you here.

00:01:08.240 We've been waiting for this moment for a while.

00:01:09.960 We've been talking about getting you on the show for ages.

00:01:12.440 So glad to have you here.

00:01:13.540 For anyone who doesn't already know who you are,

00:01:15.560 tell us a little bit about who are you, how are you, where you are.

00:01:18.880 What has been the journey that brings you sitting here?

00:01:22.100 Well, I'm actually a fashion stylist.

00:01:24.580 and that's how most people have got to know me through the internet and maybe around 2013-14

00:01:34.020 I started using my voice a little more on the internet. I had a situation in my personal life

00:01:40.100 where someone really close to me died and that really changed my ideas and my outlook on the

00:01:45.820 world and I guess I was just sort of searching for answers in really strange places. I mean I

00:01:51.320 even did the whole kind of religious route like spent some time in like churches trying to find

00:01:55.920 lances spent some time like searching through like my family uh they're Muslim and so I spent

00:02:02.240 some time trying to kind of get my my head around Islam and things like that all kinds of things

00:02:08.060 all sorts of belief systems I traveled through um and then eventually I just kind of felt like

00:02:15.440 you know, the best thing to do is just be myself. You know, I didn't feel like I needed

00:02:21.420 any sort of belief system to express my views. And so maybe in around 2018, I think this is how

00:02:32.860 maybe you guys know me, I think it was 2018, I'd recognized there was a new sort of belief system

00:02:39.140 that was taking hold, you know, of a lot of my friends and a lot of the people that I was around.

00:02:44.820 And even when I was kind of looking for something to believe in, if you like, I just realized that a lot of those people didn't often have self-awareness.

00:02:55.340 They often weren't rooted in just, I don't know, some of the fundamental principles that I was interested in.

00:03:00.660 And then I recognized this new thing kind of taking over everywhere.

00:03:05.120 And maybe some people call it wokeness. Some people call it identitarian politics.

00:03:09.660 There's lots of different names for it. But I made a video.

00:03:12.760 it was called or I was interviewed it was called the problem with wokeness um I was just speaking

00:03:17.880 my mind I didn't know anything that I was saying was potentially controversial um and yeah here I

00:03:24.120 am and you know what we might stick a little bit of that at the front so people can see what you're

00:03:29.240 talking about but uh one of the things I wanted to talk to you about because it's fascinating to me

00:03:34.680 is you and I were having a conversation about you coming on the show and we've been talking

00:03:39.240 probably about a year now yeah we have been and we set up times and didn't quite work and and and

00:03:43.840 and in the end i kind of confronted you a little bit i was like hey how have we not managed to

00:03:48.380 make this happen and you were like you know what i've been reluctant to come on why is that

00:03:53.800 and my reluctance to come on it's funny because that's the entire reason why uh i made the video

00:04:00.540 or why i think the interview resonated with a lot of people is there's an idea now and it's

00:04:07.620 quite a prevalent idea that if you speak to someone who has the so-called wrong views then

00:04:13.720 you are wrong by adjacent um and people that's you sister well yeah

00:04:18.580 but it's a it's a really silly idea to say the least because you know if you're not talking to

00:04:29.600 people who think differently then you're speaking to the choir you know and that doesn't make sense

00:04:33.680 because the world isn't made up of people who think like us.

00:04:37.220 And so I was somewhat reluctant.

00:04:39.300 And then I kept thinking to myself, well, if you don't go on and talk to people,

00:04:44.300 then you're not being a woman of your own principles, you know.

00:04:47.800 And I will speak to anybody, anybody that's reasonable,

00:04:50.000 anybody that's open to conversation or who can hear something that they disagree with

00:04:53.840 without that meaning that someone is hateful,

00:04:56.720 without sort of deducting that that means someone is hateful.

00:04:59.260 Those are the kinds of conversations I want to have.

00:05:01.300 And so when you cornered me about it, I was like, yeah, you know what, I have to do this because, you know, there's a lot going on and we're not talking to each other.

00:05:11.140 And I think that's a huge part of the problem.

00:05:13.960 The thing that I find actually really upsetting is how if you see a person who's an ethnic minority, particularly though if they're black, the moment they come out as not having woke or liberal views, it's almost like they've betrayed their entire race. 0.99

00:05:27.660 They use horrendous racist language, smear them, all the rest of it. Why is that?

00:05:34.400 I think people think that if you don't share their views, then you are somehow letting the side down.

00:05:42.320 And you can only think this because they have a very narrow conception of what it means to be black or whatever identity it might be,

00:05:50.680 which in itself is, you know, at least a form of prejudice if you don't want to call it anything else.

00:05:55.620 and it's harmful and there are many perspectives and ways to view an issue and if we are cancelling

00:06:03.860 out all of those voices because they are inconvenient then we're cheating ourselves

00:06:08.240 out of like you know expanding our awareness. And you said it's prejudice don't you think it's a

00:06:16.460 form of racism the fact that you know somebody will look you know look at somebody of a particular

00:06:20.520 current and go oh therefore you know you're black therefore you should be this you should be that 0.85

00:06:24.600 you should be whatever else, instead of the fact that they're a human being, which being black has 1.00

00:06:29.260 nothing to do with their politics or whatever else. Yeah, well, I guess because in this sort of

00:06:34.880 ideology, if you like, you can't just be black. Being black isn't actually just a skin colour.

00:06:40.100 And maybe that's what I think a lot of people don't understand. Being black is innately political

00:06:45.260 to these people. And what they mean by that is something I understand is, you know, if you are 0.92

00:06:51.280 black in this conception because of how other people view you which may not always be positive

00:06:57.540 they feel like the response to that has to be innately political or that you have to be

00:07:01.880 political that is how that you are showing up for your race if you like um and so because they don't

00:07:07.580 think it's just a skin color they think being black means that you have to be political it's

00:07:11.700 a political statement what do you think i don't think being black is a political statement

00:07:15.200 No, I think, you know, it's an immutable characteristic.

00:07:21.640 You know, it could have been anything else.

00:07:23.360 I don't think my race defines me in any way or any aspect of my identity, really.

00:07:29.140 That's not the way that I think.

00:07:31.340 Of course, being black means that, like, I guess I might have a bit more of a vested interest in some of the issues around race and racism.

00:07:41.480 But no, I don't think beyond that, that it informs much of my interests or worldviews.

00:07:47.980 I was just going to finish this train of thought because so there's this idea that if you are an ethnic minority, that you have to be sort of liberal.

00:07:57.340 But it doesn't also take into account, like, for instance, my mother is from South America.

00:08:00.920 Everybody can drink now. But, you know, and she came to this country as a first generation immigrant. 0.71

00:08:05.600 But like a lot of first generation immigrants, she's incredibly conservative.

00:08:09.820 You know, she's religious. She's not only conservative fiscally, but socially.

00:08:13.420 It doesn't take into account that actually a lot of first generation and ethnic minority communities are incredibly socially conservative.

00:08:21.540 So thinking they're going to be woke is it's just wrong, isn't it?

00:08:24.580 Yeah, no, it doesn't. And I think it's because we have in many ways or sort of downloaded the American discourse around race.

00:08:35.600 And we've imported it here. And it's not sort of like a one size fits all T-shirt, you know.

00:08:41.360 But because we kind of use it that way, we're not necessarily embracing reality because you are right.

00:08:49.660 You know, my parents are Nigerian. I grew up with my mother and she is very socially conservative.

00:08:54.960 You know, that's very much. Yeah, that's very much her worldview, although she votes on the left.

00:09:01.400 but you know there's even there's ways to even look at hip-hop if you like you know as somewhat

00:09:07.320 conservative in its ideals if you think about the fact that it's very much about competition

00:09:12.680 you know it's very much about like you know consumerism materialism like it's it's very much

00:09:18.480 you know you can even denigrate the poor just completely you can just be out there and just 0.99

00:09:22.860 be like you're poor so you're a piece of shit you know you can actually say that i like the fact you 1.00

00:09:27.400 said that to me as well you chose the right target to address here and not to say that that's what 1.00

00:09:32.780 conservative think conservative people think but it's a very pull yourself up by your bootstraps

00:09:37.140 philosophy yes you know that's quite innate in hip-hop and so actually you know socially

00:09:42.340 conservative ideas kind of exist in in many different aspects of of different you know

00:09:48.160 black communities so i don't even know where to go i mean one you say you're a fashion stylist 0.99

00:09:56.900 and a writer but when i watch and observe what you put out there i'd say you're a philosopher

00:10:02.120 if anything that's kind that's i hope you don't think i'm overstating it but that's definitely

00:10:07.240 my feeling our producer is nodding over there so i'm right basically is what i'm saying you're

00:10:10.980 wrong about your identity i'm right i get to define what you are and you're a philosopher

00:10:15.680 we'll clip that just me telling a black woman i guess it's one of those things i think a philosopher

00:10:23.140 is one of those things you can't call yourself. You know, if you have anything like that that's

00:10:28.400 in your being, I think that should be for other people to decide. I just maybe don't get out

00:10:34.120 enough and I think too much. Yeah. So you do think a lot and very, very well about these issues. So

00:10:40.600 one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about is something my wife and I talk about all

00:10:45.300 the time, which is how much of this victimhood culture that, you know, wokeness very much has

00:10:51.900 embraced and driven forward is about people projecting their own personal shit their trauma 0.94

00:10:57.900 their the difficulties whatever and i'm not even talking about like experiences that you have as an 0.83

00:11:03.640 adult i'm talking about when you're five years old you know and then taking that and projecting that

00:11:10.120 onto the world and as we know from all the psychological research if you come into the

00:11:14.460 world with a with a with a filter then you see that reflecting back at you and this is something

00:11:20.620 you talk about very well so tell us more about that yes um and this is why in what i try to put

00:11:28.760 out in my message if i can call it that um i very much uh preach for the need for um self-awareness

00:11:36.440 just as much as we have uh social awareness i think because we have uh maybe um we're sort of

00:11:44.740 overexposed socially but we're not necessarily that engaged with ourselves to know where a lot

00:11:50.020 of our ideas are coming from. And so I do think there is, it's not surprising that let's say the

00:11:57.480 mental health discussion rose to the mainstream at the same time as wokeness. You know, I think

00:12:03.760 there's something to look at there. You know, a lot more people are, you know, acknowledging

00:12:10.240 anxiety, depression, and it's not just about, you know, anxiety and depression can also be,

00:12:16.200 It can also impact the way that you see yourself, the way that you see the world.

00:12:21.980 The reason why they can be troublesome states to be in, apart from feeling terrible, is that it can kind of, it can distort reality.

00:12:32.460 You know, it can very much distort reality.

00:12:35.180 And so there is so much.

00:12:36.740 And also there's a reason as to why the word trauma has almost become a buzzword, some people might say.

00:12:42.540 You know, I'm sure if there was some like, you know, data on like how much the word trauma comes up on Twitter, I think it would be extremely high.

00:12:51.880 And so when you don't have an outlet to to sort of deal with your issues, to process your issues, I think some people can choose an ideology or a belief system or maybe wanting to change the world.

00:13:09.380 because I guess it's a lot easier to want to change the world than it is to look at yourself,

00:13:13.460 you know, which is why we often talk about accountability.

00:13:16.080 I notice everyone is always talking about, you know, you have to be accountable.

00:13:19.440 You have to be accountable. But no one ever talks about responsibility.

00:13:23.500 You know, responsibility is a bit of a dirty word, it seems, to a lot of people.

00:13:27.500 And again, because it's easier to demand accountability from other people

00:13:31.680 than it is to take responsibility for the things that you've been through.

00:13:35.160 And, you know, the problem with victimhood. And, you know, there's a very big difference between victimized and victimhood.

00:13:41.920 You know, victimized is something we could have all felt at different points.

00:13:45.080 But victimhood is a state. It's a state. It's almost a philosophy within itself.

00:13:49.800 It's a way of perceiving the world and it comes with its own form of entitlement.

00:13:54.980 And the funny thing is, you know, is the word narcissism gets a lot of flack on the Internet.

00:13:59.620 And, you know, a lot of people talk about being victims of narcissistic abuse.

00:14:03.440 But part of narcissism is victimhood, you know.

00:14:07.420 And so I think that a lot of people, because they don't have the means or they don't have the, what would I call it?

00:14:18.220 Because I think to recognize that, you know, a lot of your ideas are driven by a certain axe that you have, you know, against the world or, you know, a gripe that you have.

00:14:28.980 I think that can be quite confronting.

00:14:31.080 and we live in a culture where everybody wants to feel emotionally safe constantly all the time

00:14:36.920 and so these two things they don't marry well you know like being honest with yourself and

00:14:42.660 wanting to feel safe they don't marry very well at all no no you know so these don't really work

00:14:49.060 and so that's why i think we're in a state where people can't truly be that honest about where a

00:14:55.500 lot of their ideas are coming from and i know this a little bit because i i guess i was in it you

00:14:59.480 You know, there was a point where I had swallowed a lot of these ideas, which is maybe why I'm quite passionate about speaking about them, because I know how blinding they can be, you know.

00:15:09.820 And we sort of glamorize anger and rage.

00:15:13.020 And the thing about anger and rage is it's blinding, you know, like a lot of people will justify the wrong things that they do because they were angry.

00:15:19.720 I was angry. I didn't mean to punch you, you know, like.

00:15:22.180 And so it's it's blinding.

00:15:24.180 And so I think anger can be maybe a an interesting place or a productive place maybe to to occasionally visit because it can make us productive and it can make us it can spark ideas and creativity.

00:15:35.280 But it can't be a final resting place. And so I think when you are swallowing ideas that, you know, it's good to be angry all the time, you know, and like everything is the fault of everyone else.

00:15:50.660 You know, everything that has gone wrong in your life is to do with this person.

00:15:54.060 These are very seductive ideas. And when I was sort of entrenched in some of these beliefs, yeah, it was completely a distortion of reality.

00:16:03.280 You know, the fact that I had worked my way and become a stylist and I guess as far as I guess as far as any sort of standard metric would go, I was fairly successful.

00:16:12.660 Maybe you could say, you know, that doesn't mean that all my problems were gone, but, you know, I was doing well, you know, but that didn't matter.

00:16:19.100 It didn't matter that I was doing well because someone else was doing better, you know, and I think this is the way a lot of people have come to conceive the world.

00:16:27.260 And do you think this identity or this ideology is addictive?

00:16:31.380 Yes, I think it can be addictive. Yes, because it's comfortable. It's what you know.

00:16:37.600 I don't think I don't necessarily I try not to demonize it too much.

00:16:41.420 And that's hard because it's annoying.

00:16:44.040 You know, it can be very annoying. But I have to remember that, you know, I've been in a similar state.

00:16:49.100 I would say I wasn't so combative when I was there because that's just not my personality.

00:16:53.060 I didn't think all disagreement meant hate. However, it can be addictive because

00:16:58.740 built into the ideology, if you like, of victimhood is innocence. If you're a victim,

00:17:05.940 then you're innocent. If you're a victim, then you're innately virtuous. And so that is,

00:17:12.480 and if you're a victim, then everyone else is the oppressor and everybody else is the aggressor.

00:17:17.060 So it's a state that's quite seductive because it's one where people don't ever truly have to look at themselves.

00:17:24.760 And as we may know, that looking at yourself is hard.

00:17:27.780 And you mentioned the word being oppressed.

00:17:30.080 And you're someone who takes a lot of care when you use words and when you think about words.

00:17:34.780 And you talk a lot about oppression versus discrimination.

00:17:39.340 Just break that down for us.

00:17:40.840 Yeah, I mean, I've always paid attention to the language that I use.

00:17:45.340 And for one, because, you know, even if I had a platform of just 100 people, that's still 100 people who were listening to me who could potentially be influenced.

00:17:54.080 And if you care about people who you may deem vulnerable or the most vulnerable, I think how you speak to them and what you allow them to believe of themselves and their reality is very important.

00:18:04.920 And so for me, I've always wondered, you know, like, is what I have faced, you know, oppression or is it discrimination?

00:18:10.960 Because the two don't seem to be the same to me.

00:18:14.480 discrimination seems to be something that anybody could face for any reason you know

00:18:19.140 probably have yeah and yeah definitely you know if you're someone who's overweight if you've got

00:18:23.980 ginger hair like when i was in school like those guys just got ripped on all the time

00:18:27.340 like yeah that's fair enough yeah you know but anything if you've got acne you know if you're

00:18:32.620 considered to be unattractive all of these kind of things can allow you to be discriminated against

00:18:38.140 your voice how you speak your accent all these sorts of things and so um and i have you know

00:18:43.820 I've definitely had people, especially when I was in school, I grew up in Southampton.

00:18:48.160 My school was predominantly white. There weren't many black people there.

00:18:52.080 And so there were people who, let's say, made fun of my hair. 0.97

00:18:54.800 I'm like, oh, you've got trolls hair. And there were people who, you know, made fun of like my features and stuff like that because they were different.

00:19:02.440 And at the time, of course, it was hurtful. But it wasn't, if I'm honest, truly different to anything that the ginger kid wasn't going through.

00:19:10.120 And I would call that discrimination. I wouldn't call that oppression. I think if you can go online and you can call out your government and you can say anything about white men and you can say anything about any people with very little repercussion, I think that might be the evidence that, you know, you might not be oppressed.

00:19:30.260 well you make that point and look it's a very i mean it's a very contentious issue to get into

00:19:36.680 but we're going to have to get into it which is you know you mentioned you can say whatever you

00:19:40.820 want about white men and let's be honest you can say things about certain groups of people that

00:19:45.520 you can't say that about others is that sustainable no i don't think it makes sense to

00:19:51.440 talk about people in a way that you wouldn't accept yourself because human psychology means

00:19:58.320 for every action, there is a reaction and there's a consequence. So if people feel like one group

00:20:04.780 is allowed to get away with a certain type of behaviour that another one isn't, that's not

00:20:10.440 going to work well. You know, it's not at all because not everybody is right. I mean, not

00:20:14.480 everybody is versed in racial history or racial politics. Not everybody cares. We can't make

00:20:19.260 everybody care. So no matter what your justification is for why you believe it's OK to completely

00:20:26.720 denigrate an entire 0.98

00:20:29.580 demographic

00:20:30.300 there will be a consequence to that

00:20:33.380 so if you want to do it, go for it

00:20:35.660 but what I would ask is

00:20:36.940 it's not constructive and if you want to be

00:20:39.080 constructive and helpful for the people

00:20:41.420 that you wish to help

00:20:43.160 this might be a way

00:20:45.280 that you are

00:20:46.960 completely sort of being self-defeating

00:20:49.640 there. Wow, so you're saying

00:20:51.060 hashtag kill all white men isn't 1.00

00:20:53.140 constructive. You know, it might not be the best PR 0.99

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00:23:41.100 be able to hide from everybody the fact that you watch this show. And the thing that I worry about

00:23:51.620 when they do things like that, or, you know, someone tweets, oh, it's just another old white 0.94

00:23:55.440 man, is essentially you're dividing the races. You're creating a divide between the races. So

00:24:02.880 there are going to be people who look at that and go, well, you know what? I'm not going to

00:24:06.480 listen to what you say anymore because I'm white, therefore I'm wrong. And then you've got a small,

00:24:10.080 very toxic minority who look at that, rub their hands with glee and go, we can create division here. 0.60

00:24:15.700 Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think people underestimate how much people want to be heard and how much

00:24:22.320 people want to belong. It's part of the reason why we have this ideology that is so sort of

00:24:28.320 dominant in the mainstream right now, because to not be a part of that is to isolate yourself

00:24:37.320 and potentially leave yourself open to accusations of fascism, racism, all of the phobias.

00:24:45.540 And so when you are telling people that they can't speak because of their skin colour,

00:24:52.100 or when you're speaking about someone in a way that you would no way have within yourself,

00:24:57.420 you don't recognise that you also are radicalising people.

00:25:01.060 You're pushing people over to a certain side.

00:25:03.720 Because if people no longer feel, let's say, that they have a voice on the left,

00:25:07.320 And people don't want to listen to them on the left. They will go somewhere else.

00:25:11.560 I mean, the argument to that is, well, I guess if they could so easily be swayed, then they were never true leftists.

00:25:15.840 And I don't think people are truly, truly appreciating human psychology there.

00:25:23.300 You know, we want to be heard. But it's also I mean, you say it's so easy if they so easily move to the left.

00:25:29.520 it's not easy it's taken some people 10 years to to make the journey from being oh i'm super lefty 0.88

00:25:36.000 to oh wait shit like on this particular issue i i'm just not wanted i mean look at jk rowling 0.83

00:25:42.000 right right little miss lefty all the time you know all the right opinions you know all the 0.98

00:25:47.280 all the right causes supporting all the stuff there's one issue and this is what i i've been

00:25:53.120 talking about for some time they will always find a way in which you don't fit and so that journey

00:25:59.380 it's not been like oh this you know it's so easy to get people to move it takes a hell of a lot of

00:26:05.880 badgering and battering and you know offending and whatever to get people to make that transition

00:26:11.520 and i i see that i think we see that happening right now a lot of people you know with jake

00:26:16.200 around as a good example a lot of people are going to be on her side now in a way that they

00:26:21.120 might not have been before because you're forcing them to to make a choice between what they know

00:26:24.780 to be true and what they think is the right thing am i no no you're right there maybe what i meant

00:26:30.360 is it's so easy as i meet so many more young people who almost see uh being on the right is

00:26:36.180 like quite a counterculture thing to do you know which is interesting because you know you know

00:26:40.940 like conservatism you know sort of symbolizes tradition and you know and and keeping thing

00:26:45.960 keeping the order so it's not necessarily the most rock star thing to do you know but

00:26:50.640 A lot of young people are sort of seeing it that way now. And so I think maybe for them it may be easier. In J.K. Rowling's case, yeah, I think people do, people who believe they have the good politics, people who believe they are the good people, they are way too quick to assume nefarious intention to anybody that doesn't share their beliefs.

00:27:15.640 and it's going to be a downfall.

00:27:17.960 It's not constructive

00:27:18.920 and it's manipulative, I think.

00:27:21.040 I think it's very manipulative

00:27:22.320 to call all disagreement hate.

00:27:25.500 You know, there used to be a time

00:27:26.760 where we would acknowledge

00:27:29.260 and accept that,

00:27:30.260 let's say if you were religious,

00:27:31.680 you probably didn't really believe

00:27:33.140 in homosexuality. 0.88

00:27:34.340 You know, you didn't believe

00:27:35.180 that those people had a right to marry.

00:27:36.700 You disagreed with them,

00:27:38.240 but you didn't necessarily

00:27:38.940 think they hated you.

00:27:40.320 You just thought,

00:27:40.900 well, this is their religion,

00:27:41.700 this is their belief, you know,

00:27:43.000 but we can't seem to do that anymore.

00:27:44.880 You know, the gender issue and the transgender discourse mainstream at the moment is complicated, for some might say, and some might say it's quite simple, you know.

00:27:55.620 But however, the idea that sex and gender, sex and gender are separate is something I think majority people probably still believe in, you know, because if you don't spend your time on Twitter and you haven't got like, you know, a gender studies degree.

00:28:11.420 And if you aren't sort of reading a lot of the contemporary gender texts, then you probably will think this. And so to assume that anybody who wants to fight for that category is hateful. Well, then, you know, you're going to be thinking about that's a lot of black people. That's a lot of Muslim people.

00:28:31.120 You know, that's a lot of people that we also on one breath say that we want to help and that we should protect, you know.

00:28:38.580 And so I think especially on that issue, as it is very contentious, people have to start listening to each other.

00:28:46.480 And I think as long as you are accusing each other and calling people names and trying to smear reputations, it's not conducive to the movement.

00:28:58.080 It's not conducive to the trans children that you believe are vulnerable.

00:29:01.840 I don't think it's it's just not productive.

00:29:04.740 You know, that's what I deal with.

00:29:05.880 I don't necessarily often care necessarily too much about like whether it's right or wrong, because that can be subjective to lots of different people.

00:29:12.600 But what's constructive? And I don't think, as we can quite clearly see, everything that's been happening in that area has been very constructive.

00:29:19.620 But there's also these people, and I've seen them myself and they're people in my industry, who have, for want of a better term, jumped on this debate, made it more toxic in order just to push their own brand, what they do, increase their followers and so on and so forth.

00:29:37.720 Yeah.

00:29:38.380 And how big an effect do you think that has?

00:29:41.400 Do you think it's just one voice or do you think that has a real sizable impact?

00:29:44.940 What's that?

00:29:45.480 So like people jumping on the bandwagon of a movement?

00:29:49.140 Yeah. And then going, you know, silence is violence. You know, people going, you know, like all white people, if you don't support every aspect of Black Lives Matter, you are part of the problem.

00:29:58.660 Yeah. Again, this is not this is not grounded in reality to me. You know, there are a myriad of issues that we are silent on.

00:30:05.740 So if we're going to say silence is violence, then let's just also keep that message and narrative consistent and acknowledge that we're all violent then.

00:30:14.940 You know, because there are lots of things that we are silent on that affect a lot of people, even black and brown people.

00:30:20.820 There was a brilliant tweet the other day.

00:30:24.380 Some people came up with the idea that silence is consent and they made T-shirts.

00:30:29.140 Silence is consent.

00:30:30.260 Someone just retweeted it and went, you might want to rethink this.

00:30:33.120 Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:30:35.760 Wow. Yeah, OK, yeah.

00:30:37.120 They didn't think that one true.

00:30:38.280 so yes i think okay so the thing that's quite different now is that um what we post on social

00:30:45.700 media can have a real life impact in our real lives you know offline and so more than ever i

00:30:52.620 think people are incentivized you want to appear to be good people i mean i i guess broadly speaking

00:30:59.480 we all want to be good people however being an honest person um is something that some people

00:31:04.860 value or prioritize on the same level you know and i think people who want to be good people

00:31:11.280 and honest people they're always going to have some tension there you know because if you're

00:31:16.300 honest with yourself you can't always be good for everyone else um and so people jumping on

00:31:23.120 the bandwagon of movements ideas uh theories that they don't understand don't know what they're

00:31:31.060 rooted in this is quite destructive um because for want of a better word you're you're you talk

00:31:38.160 you don't know what you're talking about literally you don't actually know what you're talking about

00:31:41.480 you don't know where these ideas come from um you don't know what the impact of these ideas are on

00:31:46.140 people because you're not necessarily from that community um you're not someone who's ever had

00:31:50.580 these issues um let's say with a lot of the um the trans uh discussion a lot of the people that

00:31:56.780 we would say are hateful. And I don't necessarily think that. I think hate is a word that we dish

00:32:01.040 out too easily. And again, I think we do it quite manipulatively because once you brand someone as

00:32:05.840 hateful, then you don't have to listen to them anymore, you know, and you sort of, and you

00:32:09.700 spread that idea. But a lot of the people who, let's say, have questions, if you like, about

00:32:15.460 the mainstream, let's say, transgender discussion. And I say mainstream and I really want to single 1.00

00:32:21.900 that out because that's not how every trans person feels. That's not the way that every

00:32:25.880 trans person is viewing that discussion. But a lot of those women that we're calling hateful 1.00

00:32:31.120 themselves had experienced gender dysphoria, you know, and it's from that space that they're

00:32:37.060 speaking from, you know, like someone like me who has definitely at some points swallowed a little

00:32:43.980 bit of woke ideology or at least this ideology that very much sees the world in this black and 0.87

00:32:50.020 white sense um the reason why i am um critical of it you know and ask us to reconsider those ideas

00:32:58.780 is because i i've i've had them and i've noticed how destructive they were to me how exhausting

00:33:04.000 they were how um how much i just had an inability to truly look at myself in those moments um and

00:33:12.320 the only person who doesn't benefit from that is me um and so i think that yeah i know that was a

00:33:19.960 very long what you're basically saying if i'm hearing it correctly is being woke is bad for

00:33:25.080 your own mental health and well-being i think it is bad for your own mental health and well-being 0.53

00:33:29.560 because we have to be able to embrace the gray because a lot of life exists in the gray you know

00:33:34.640 if we um if we want to say that everybody who doesn't agree with us is hateful then we have

00:33:40.580 to get rid of many of our own family members you know many of the children that we're going to

00:33:44.720 bringing it into the world.

00:33:46.040 It's just not practical or realistic.

00:33:49.340 See, Aisha, I can tell you've fully integrated into Britain

00:33:52.160 because your slogan is embrace the grey.

00:33:54.300 Yeah, exactly that, exactly that.

00:33:57.000 But look, you mentioned, I mean, you keep making this point

00:34:00.360 over and over about constructive and unconstructive,

00:34:03.380 helpful and unhelpful.

00:34:04.740 So with that filter on, what do you make of the current protests

00:34:10.200 that we're seeing and the Black Lives Matter organisation

00:34:13.940 as it's impacting the world right now?

00:34:21.780 I understand why people want to protest.

00:34:26.800 And I think if people want to protest for whatever they believe in,

00:34:31.880 they should always have the right to do that.

00:34:34.860 Do you have the right to pressure people into doing that?

00:34:37.360 I don't think so.

00:34:38.460 If people don't want to do that,

00:34:40.420 does that say something innately about their morality?

00:34:42.660 I do not think so. It's very likely that a lot of us don't necessarily know in Britain, let's say, know, let's say the plight of a, you know, a typical Pakistani woman in her village, you know, and us not knowing her plight.

00:34:58.480 Does that reflect, you know, our morality? I don't think so. Or the fact that we're not speaking for her issues. I don't think so.

00:35:04.480 People can protest when it comes to the the rioting aspects, which some people justify.

00:35:13.540 Again, I come back to, you know, constructive right now.

00:35:17.620 We are still in the middle of a pandemic and we're saying that, you know, black and brown people are more susceptible to dying as a result of this.

00:35:26.820 And people are mass gathering when before we were saying that, you know, we're not ready to go back to work.

00:35:32.800 And we're saying all of these things. It just seems to, again, it's not consistent.

00:35:38.180 And I think, you know, let's say with the writing, a lot of people, a lot of people's businesses who are minorities, they've lost their businesses.

00:35:46.040 I don't see how that can be beneficial to them.

00:35:50.600 I think if we acknowledge that there is a problem with the American police in terms of brutality and which actually does affect people of all races.

00:36:01.140 And if there's a disproportionate, let's say, a disproportionate level of violence against black men, having young black men come face to face with the police, you know, because of the riots, knowing that they use brute force.

00:36:17.560 Again, I don't know if that is constructive. Protest, it's going to happen, especially when we are not necessarily sure of all of the facts, you know, and when we are more grounded in, let's say, narrative than concrete reality.

00:36:38.100 And even when we are, you know, grounded in reality, people want to protest.

00:36:42.380 That's just going to happen. But I think the way to do it, there is a way to do it.

00:36:46.980 And I think there's a way to do it that can also be sort of undermining of your overall goals.

00:36:54.760 And why do you think it is with the Black Lives Matter movement?

00:36:58.700 People, we all agree that, of course, Black Lives Matter, of course they do.

00:37:02.520 but the black lives matter movement and the organization is very very political now someone

00:37:09.380 who comes from a country where i've seen socialism rise and fail in the most awful way possible

00:37:14.760 i read some of what they say and i'm i'm not down with it really you don't want to

00:37:20.460 you don't want to abolish the police man you know why is it that the moment i say that i'm going to 0.93

00:37:26.640 go and say to Anton, fucking cut that bit immediately. But why is that? That you can 0.90

00:37:32.200 support Black Lives Matter, but the actual political organisation, if you criticise it,

00:37:37.600 you feel like you're done. Because people have made Black Lives Matter synonymous with being 0.96

00:37:44.180 black or black people. And people have almost framed it as if if you want to not be a racist,

00:37:49.720 then you can only do it through this filter. You can only do it through, let's say, the theory of

00:37:54.680 anti-racism or through Black Lives Matter. That's not true. You know, like a lot of us can not be

00:38:01.740 racist, you know, like, you know, I'm sure you guys have managed to get here today, you know,

00:38:05.960 without necessarily perpetuating any racism, you know, and a lot of us can do this without

00:38:11.040 necessarily having to embrace an organization that might be counter to a lot of the things

00:38:20.500 that we value and that's not necessarily again you know we can't use uh racism like a paracetamol

00:38:27.460 and put it on everything you know we can't do that um it doesn't work you know and so

00:38:32.700 it's just not it's just not the case even if we want it to be that everybody who doesn't agree

00:38:39.860 with a certain way of doing things is doing it because they think that you're an inferior race

00:38:46.140 But, yeah, I think because, you know, Black Lives Matter is huge, it's global.

00:38:50.520 I think we just genuinely think that this is the only way that you can support black lives. 1.00

00:38:54.860 This is the only way that you can not be racist.

00:38:58.240 Again, I think it comes back to the fact that this ideology or this worldview, if you want to call it that, is very black and white, you know, excuse the pun.

00:39:08.940 But, yeah, I think that's why.

00:39:10.660 Do you support Black Lives Matter?

00:39:12.160 um i well not necessarily in any sort of um meaningful senses and i'm not tweeting about

00:39:21.540 it i'm not let's say hashtagging it on my instagram i didn't post the black box although

00:39:25.740 i guess the black box wasn't about um black lives matter i think we've we uh we learned

00:39:30.940 i i support black people and i support people being honest and i support people being grounded 0.78

00:39:38.000 in rationality and facts. I don't support people putting fear into people who, into people's lives

00:39:48.220 who are already vulnerable for whatever means. I support black people and there's many ways that

00:39:56.040 I can do that. I support all people actually, but I can support people through means that are not

00:40:01.480 that. That doesn't work for me. See, so let's take what you've just said, which I think is

00:40:06.260 an eminently sensible reasonable sane balanced statement if you were to i mean you might get in

00:40:14.340 trouble just for saying it here you might but if we we all know that if i i would tell francis was

00:40:20.660 to go on the radio tomorrow on the tv tomorrow and make that exact statement i i support black

00:40:26.240 i support all people actually um yeah yeah yeah like you can look at him sweating right now yeah

00:40:32.520 Well, it doesn't help the voice, mate.

00:40:33.820 Yeah, yeah.

00:40:34.280 I support all people, actually, mate, just to let you know.

00:40:37.740 You know, and you say, well, I don't necessarily,

00:40:40.460 like you're quite careful about exactly what you think,

00:40:44.420 which I think is how all human beings ought to be, right?

00:40:48.340 You don't just, you know, bend the knee

00:40:50.820 and go for whatever it is that's being shoved down your throat.

00:40:53.540 You think, well, let's look at the website.

00:40:55.900 Let's look at what the statements are.

00:40:57.220 Oh, they want to demolish the nuclear family. 0.91

00:40:59.560 Maybe that's not for me.

00:41:00.380 They want to get rid of the police.

00:41:01.580 Maybe that's not for me.

00:41:02.280 they want to abolish capitalism you know maybe that's not like you take all these things and

00:41:06.160 you go well on balance i don't support this organization but i support black people and

00:41:10.600 actually i i want all people to you know why is it that for you know for for one of us to say that

00:41:18.200 you know it it's it's over if you like because um well you know we don't know i might get in

00:41:24.900 trouble for that so i guess we'll wait and see what my my real question is why should any of us

00:41:29.700 get in trouble for that um because again we uh we have a very simplistic understanding of human

00:41:36.520 beings and this is something that that worldview very much encourages and so we do this thing

00:41:42.340 called mind reading and so what we hear so you they might you might say um well i support black

00:41:48.440 people however i don't support the aims that are listed in uh the black lives matter sort of um

00:41:55.380 Yeah, whatever. Manifesto, whatever. Yeah. I don't support their manifesto.

00:42:00.640 What they hear is I don't I don't want black people to live, you know, like, you know, we're hearing different things.

00:42:09.780 I think people don't necessarily listen to language because we think that we understand who people are.

00:42:16.060 You know, this is you must be that person if you don't believe this.

00:42:19.980 again it's just a very simplistic view of human beings because they have a very simplistic

00:42:25.540 understanding of themselves if you had a complicated understanding of yourself and if you knew

00:42:30.680 the gray that exists within you and if you knew that you had the ability to let's say understand

00:42:35.720 an idea without necessarily and maybe even yes you so if you knew you had the ability to understand

00:42:41.860 an idea but that doesn't mean that you condone an idea if they knew that then they wouldn't

00:42:49.180 necessarily think that nobody else uh had the capacity to do such a thing um right so you're

00:42:55.520 saying really is it's the simplicity of their thinking that makes them think that other people

00:42:59.920 think in such a simple way it's a projection it's a projection i hadn't thought about it like that

00:43:03.420 um because any you know the um the inability to accept uh complication i think is the inability

00:43:11.900 to accept it within yourself yeah or complexity rather i mean and the thing that i find troubling

00:43:17.840 about all of these movements

00:43:19.780 is the performative morality aspect of them.

00:43:23.240 Like, just going on my Instagram,

00:43:24.640 the number of white middle-class people

00:43:26.540 who've bought...

00:43:27.280 I can't watch it.

00:43:28.060 I can't bear it.

00:43:28.660 I can't.

00:43:29.500 Who've bought, like, 10 books on race.

00:43:31.300 This is everything that I'm learning today on race.

00:43:33.560 And you're like, who is this for?

00:43:35.840 Who is this for?

00:43:36.500 These six Instagram stories.

00:43:38.440 And it's painful.

00:43:39.340 It's painful to watch.

00:43:40.420 And honestly, ever since this has started,

00:43:42.360 I go on social media,

00:43:44.040 I reply to people,

00:43:45.080 I post if I need to,

00:43:46.000 I don't scroll.

00:43:46.760 I don't look.

00:43:47.840 I can't bear to.

00:43:49.220 And the thing is, I don't hold, I mean,

00:43:51.060 it's not that I'm frustrated with people.

00:43:54.780 I'm not angry at people necessarily

00:43:56.360 because they're doing what they're told.

00:43:58.100 Because if you don't do this, then you are a racist. 0.99

00:44:01.840 You know, if you don't do this, then you want me to die. 1.00

00:44:05.060 Come on, mate, get on your knees. 0.99

00:44:06.500 This is all directed at me.

00:44:08.720 Get on your knees, mate, come on. 0.86

00:44:10.260 This is what the viewers of Trigonometry want to see.

00:44:13.960 And so because people have bought into that idea,

00:44:17.040 this is what they think they need to do. And I can't bear it because any sort of person

00:44:25.340 of my orientation just finds it completely condescending. And, you know, but it's also

00:44:30.600 sad for those individuals because you can't actually win. You can buy the books, you can do

00:44:35.480 all of this. But as soon as you put one foot out of line, you know, they're going to attack you

00:44:39.500 and they'll do it mercilessly, you know, because it's not it's not about revolution or restructure

00:44:46.360 or anything like that, it's often just about revenge, you know.

00:44:49.860 And so you can read all the books that you like, you know.

00:44:53.780 It's not going to change, you know, your immutable characteristics

00:44:57.660 as far as people who are committed to seeing the world

00:45:00.780 in a certain way are concerned.

00:45:03.480 So that's why it saddens me as well because I get it, you know.

00:45:07.340 I'm sure it's well-intended.

00:45:09.060 And I'm sure part of it is, you know, let's say reputation control,

00:45:15.040 you know damage limitation but I'm sure you know it's coming from a place where you know this is

00:45:20.340 what I've been told to do so this is what I should do but again the problem with the statement listen

00:45:25.880 to all black people or listen to black people is the suggestion that all black people think the

00:45:31.420 same because what happens if you listen to let's say you read one book and this book says something

00:45:37.740 else then where are you what do you do now this book says something completely different about

00:45:41.760 how to counter racism or how to be as a white person in this fight against racism um there is

00:45:49.640 no genuine general consensus you know when it comes to a lot of these ideas there isn't um i

00:45:57.060 disagree with a lot of my black friends i disagree with a lot of my white friends um and that's the

00:46:02.260 way it should be you know the the goal i hope is that we can disagree respectfully and that we can

00:46:08.600 maybe ask each other why do you feel that way you know what rather than saying like you feel this

00:46:13.580 way because of this i mean it doesn't take much to ask why do you feel that way you know why do

00:46:19.480 you have this stance or you know what brought you to this stance you know that's that's not hard to

00:46:24.700 do it's interesting to me talk about this idea of listening to black people i don't i don't hear

00:46:31.200 many people like you on my television i'm not that i watch much television but you know you see the

00:46:35.760 the clips that go do the rounds on social media you see how these come you know i've been on tv

00:46:40.880 a number of times talking about some of these issues a little bit with with on the other side

00:46:45.820 of me there's people who they don't they don't sound like you yeah they don't say what you say

00:46:50.680 yeah they have a very different view and that view seems to be the only view that a black person gets

00:46:56.420 to have on tv you know you're either you know let's be honest a race beta or or you're not there

00:47:01.660 that every now and again you get somebody coming on.

00:47:05.140 But broadly speaking, that is.

00:47:07.220 So when we talk about listening to black people,

00:47:08.700 why aren't they listening to you?

00:47:10.180 Why do they have to go on YouTube and watch you here

00:47:12.760 instead of seeing you on their TV screens?

00:47:14.760 Because you've got a very interesting... 1.00

00:47:16.760 Mate, shut up. We need the views. 0.99

00:47:19.360 Well, they call people with my view tokens,

00:47:25.840 or they say that it's a privileged view to have,

00:47:28.820 or they say that, you know, this view doesn't represent X, Y, Z, you know, she doesn't speak

00:47:34.600 for us. You know, I don't actually speak for you. I speak for myself. But, you know, I'm sure there

00:47:38.760 are a lot of people who also have a similar idea. And there's going to be, of course, like

00:47:45.040 subtle differences and things. But yeah, it's because it's it's politically incorrect to have

00:47:53.280 a person like me on the show because i don't know i mean for one there is a big um there is a war on

00:48:01.700 reason you know and there is a war on what i would call common sense um you know everything i'm saying

00:48:08.660 i don't think is necessarily profound i am saying that you have to treat people how you wish to be

00:48:12.640 treated you know 101 we teach toddlers this um but you know i guess this view uh doesn't shake

00:48:22.420 as many people up you know and i guess whether it's about ratings or whether it's about pushing

00:48:28.220 a certain narrative um for whatever reason they want to make people believe uh that people like

00:48:35.000 me don't exist and if we do exist that we you know we must be tories or we must be um privileged uh

00:48:41.380 both of which i am not um or at least i did not grow up you know you know with a silver spoon

00:48:46.460 Coming over to the right.

00:48:49.240 No, no, no.

00:48:50.060 I mean, I didn't grow up with a silver spoon is what I mean.

00:48:52.800 I was just messing with you.

00:48:55.500 And so, yeah, I mean, considering, you know,

00:48:58.620 a lot of people would like to say, you know,

00:49:00.500 black people aren't a monolith.

00:49:01.980 You know, like this is a slogan, one of the slogans that I hear often.

00:49:05.980 But as soon as you act like you're not a monolith,

00:49:08.580 then, you know, they quite quickly remind you why you should be.

00:49:12.260 um so it's a very confused um way of seeing the world um i think if people have i think if a lot

00:49:21.880 of mainstream uh news channels have people on who are saying the opposite to what i'm saying then it

00:49:27.960 looks like they are doing the work you know as as they're told to do um someone like me i think they

00:49:34.020 don't think is representative the it's interesting that you say that one of the phrases that i keep

00:49:40.380 hearing and i don't know why it makes me feel uneasy uneasy is the words be an ally yeah as

00:49:47.720 if we're in this perpetual war yeah and okay maybe maybe that's my white privilege that i've never

00:49:54.200 seen this war happen it's yeah where does that come from because i guess we a lot of people do

00:50:01.260 feel like you know existing is a battlefield you know you very much hear sometimes people say

00:50:07.840 you know i've had white people say to me you know aisha as a black woman i'm sure you know

00:50:11.960 you just waking up is like you know a revolutionary act sorry really you know i woke up with you know

00:50:22.360 with ease my alarm clock just like anybody else i wouldn't have called it revolutionary

00:50:25.880 however you know there is this idea and and he says it to me trying to be complimentary and

00:50:33.580 Bless him. You know, I think he's sweet. He's just talking to the wrong person.

00:50:37.120 You know, I don't see it as complimentary, but I understand, you know, his intention.

00:50:42.920 And so when people are convinced that they are living on a battlefield for whatever reason,

00:50:48.160 because we can all we can all whip ourselves up into any false state of reality that we like.

00:50:56.740 Well, then, yeah, I guess, you know, the idea of having allies rather than friends, you know,

00:51:02.720 is is is more appealing i don't need an ally personally uh i don't want an ally um i'd like

00:51:09.640 to talk to people i like connections with people acquaintances associates friends um i don't know

00:51:15.380 what an ally is an ally to me seems to be someone who has to pander to everything i say because i

00:51:20.100 am black that seems condescending um i don't want that and also my view doesn't represent

00:51:25.380 what every black person thinks um i don't want that if you're a friend or if you're an associate 0.71

00:51:31.660 or someone that I can share a connection with,

00:51:34.240 surely that's enough, you know.

00:51:35.820 I don't need you to fight my battles.

00:51:37.840 There's nothing you can do that's going to liberate me.

00:51:40.820 Talk to your nan if you want or don't, you know.

00:51:43.520 I really don't care.

00:51:46.460 I don't, you know, it's almost, you know,

00:51:48.540 people have a democratic right to dislike me,

00:51:51.640 you know, if you want, you know,

00:51:52.660 even for my race if you want.

00:51:53.800 You don't have a right to obstruct me, you know,

00:51:56.420 and that's what I care about, you know.

00:51:58.700 but most people think that their cultures are superior you know most people feel you know

00:52:05.560 more important than the next person I guess there's a part of living where we may have to

00:52:09.820 you know which is why maybe we won't go into the fire you know like to save someone so we can

00:52:15.360 save ourselves I don't know I just I've never felt the need for an ally every time that someone has

00:52:22.180 tried to be an ally to me, I've just felt incredibly patronized. And it's okay, because

00:52:29.000 I get it, you know, I get that you're coming from a place where, for one, you've been told to come

00:52:34.020 from, and also that you want to help. But to want to help is to assume that being black is a

00:52:39.920 disadvantage to me, or is to assume that being black worse is a disability to me, you know, 0.58

00:52:45.000 and I find those ideas, again, troublesome, to say the least. So how do we make this better?

00:52:52.780 That's a shitty question. 0.71

00:52:54.080 No, I mean, it's a good question because maybe I don't quite know how to answer it, 0.98

00:52:59.520 but I'll try to answer it.

00:53:02.680 I think we need courage, you know, I think we need integrity.

00:53:08.300 These are words I don't see thrown around too much.

00:53:11.020 I see the word ally a lot, you know.

00:53:12.880 I see the word good person, I see the right side of history, you know.

00:53:16.680 I see those kind of things in the digital arena,

00:53:21.640 But I think we need to be courageous. We need to have principles, not just beliefs, you know, because I think there's a difference between principles and beliefs.

00:53:29.960 You can believe something because it's trendy to. But if you have a principle, let's say, to a principle of fairness, let's say you have a principle of fairness that.

00:53:41.620 That sort of determines how you speak to people that determines what you won't do, even though it's popular to, you know.

00:53:48.580 And so I think we need to develop principles, not just beliefs, because beliefs change with the wind.

00:53:53.400 You know, they're fads most of the time, ideological fads.

00:53:57.040 But you don't fall into these fads when you have principles.

00:54:00.580 I think we need to be able to trust ourselves to some degree.

00:54:06.020 I think we all should be more curious and interested in each other.

00:54:09.440 I think we shouldn't assign ill intent to everybody.

00:54:14.060 I think that's quite paranoid.

00:54:15.440 I think it's self-important because I think if you're living in the real world, you understand that most people are indifferent to your existence.

00:54:24.140 It's not about hating you.

00:54:25.840 And if most people even understood how much most of us hate ourselves to whatever degree, we don't have time to hate someone else for the most part.

00:54:35.520 We might have some stereotypes.

00:54:38.240 There are stereotypes that we all have about each other, and we can diminish those when we speak to one another.

00:54:43.680 so we have to speak to one another you know we can't afford to see um every conversation that is

00:54:51.220 let's say um passionate or difficult as emotional labor life is emotional labor you know existing

00:54:59.520 is emotional labor to some capacity and if these things matter to you then talk to people that's

00:55:05.160 that's all we have and this is an awful question as well i feel that things are getting worse i

00:55:12.440 I don't, and that's really sad for me because I grew up in South London

00:55:16.580 and I saw things getting better.

00:55:18.660 I saw people becoming more tolerant, becoming more open.

00:55:21.980 It feels we've taken a regressive step back.

00:55:25.060 Because let's just be clear, when you were growing up, people were properly racist.

00:55:28.420 Yeah, they were properly racist.

00:55:29.700 For instance, I grew up in a part of South London. 0.96

00:55:31.920 The pub down the road from me was a BNP pub and England fag-fying all the time. 1.00

00:55:37.080 My family, cousins who came over from Venezuela, racially abused, called the P word. 0.95

00:55:41.880 all the rest of it. And I saw London and society as a whole get better, not get perfect, but get

00:55:46.560 better. Do you think we're at real risk of going back to that place or maybe a different place,

00:55:53.940 which is equally worse? I relate to you when you say that things are getting worse. And I think

00:56:00.540 if we spend enough time online, it can be very despairing and very demoralizing and isolating.

00:56:07.780 And that's one of the reasons as to why I think this movement deserves a lot of critical analysis and interrogation, because if they believe that they are speaking for the minorities, I don't believe that they are. 0.98

00:56:25.240 I think they're speaking for an ideology, you know, because when a black brown person, gay person, trans person doesn't subscribe to these ideas, then, you know, you call them fascists.

00:56:36.460 You know, so this is a movement that is made a lot of people feel extremely alienated.

00:56:44.740 And I think there are consequences to that alienation.

00:56:48.360 And so maybe it's one of these cases where it has to get worse before it gets better.

00:56:53.880 I don't know if it's sustainable to to build a worldview on things that aren't necessarily true or at least not grounded in facts.

00:57:06.460 um but then you know when i when i meet someone who isn't on twitter you know i i do i do sometimes

00:57:14.300 you know see that glimmer of hope yeah um because yeah but you know but the problem is is that it's

00:57:19.320 very influential you know like i have um black and mixed friends from southampton uh who again

00:57:27.080 they know nothing about race nothing at all they've they are let's say you know fairly working

00:57:32.940 class like they get along with everybody they they they date every any anybody of any race

00:57:38.820 you know and I'm seeing some of them on Instagram you know just when I because like I said I am not

00:57:43.940 scrolling but you know I'll go in to check a message and then I'll see like someone from

00:57:48.380 Southampton talking about every reason why she is oppressed now you know and I and she never felt

00:57:57.800 that way before you know she never saw herself like that and i don't know if her now seeing

00:58:05.460 herself through such a lens i don't know what that does for her you know and and that's my my

00:58:10.020 real issue with this you know i think life is complicated and tough enough and we are asking

00:58:14.900 people to essentially view themselves through the lens of people that you are convinced dislike them

00:58:20.080 what about the argument which some people might make it applies less in your case because

00:58:24.860 if this person is black, you're black, then presumably you would be able to talk about

00:58:29.000 these issues before. But like if a white person, let's say, was to say, well, you know, I have a

00:58:33.880 black friend and, you know, he didn't used to think this way. And now he does. A lot of people

00:58:38.200 might say, well, actually, he did think that way. He was just not prepared to talk about it because

00:58:42.960 because what has happened is the Black Lives Matter movement has allowed a voice for people

00:58:47.400 who've otherwise not been able to speak. Well, yes, I think anybody who is a minority within a

00:58:53.200 majority, I think there are quite natural things that you could feel, you know, and this could work

00:58:58.680 anywhere in the world, you know. So there are genuine feelings, I think, of maybe sometimes

00:59:06.320 not feeling like you belong and not feeling like, and maybe, you know, some feelings of inferiority

00:59:16.820 that you've internalized through media portrayals and all of these kinds of things. I think those

00:59:21.580 things are real um however you know uh let's say a movement might like black lives matter

00:59:28.760 might might articulate let's say some of these things that you felt and didn't know how to put

00:59:34.420 words to but maybe what's not necessarily there is that like everybody is against you

00:59:40.840 you know and like everybody who doesn't understand your experience um it doesn't understand from a

00:59:47.480 place of racism as opposed to we are all occupying different realities you know so let's say if your

00:59:54.500 worldview is completely comprised of everything you've experienced why is it so hard to understand

01:00:00.380 that someone else's is you know you know and and i think once we kind of can understand that we are

01:00:06.260 all occupying uh this world in very different ways um i i think that can help it doesn't have

01:00:15.120 just because someone doesn't understand everything about you and how could they you know we don't

01:00:20.540 even understand everything about ourselves you know that doesn't mean that like they are gunning

01:00:26.260 for your downfall you know and i think again like teaching people these things to people that you

01:00:32.040 guys deem vulnerable i think i think is irresponsible do you think we're quite

01:00:39.340 patronizing the way we see ethnic minorities in this country in the sense that you know that how

01:00:45.680 we you know we can't say this because you know you've got to protect them or whatever else or

01:00:50.880 do you see where i'm going with this yeah yeah and i sometimes do your own cancellation that's

01:00:55.360 where you're fucking going mate but i just sometimes see the way that people you know 0.93

01:01:00.120 discuss these issues and you know oh you can't say it like this you've got to now say it like 0.99

01:01:04.220 this and it's like they're an adult they're intelligent they can decide on their own

01:01:08.200 evidence whether they agree or disagree yeah why do you feel that you have to protect people

01:01:12.600 yeah because i guess they don't recognize the difference between compassion and pity

01:01:17.680 you know and i think a lot of people think compassion is pit no they've mistaken their

01:01:24.120 their pity for compassion um and so when you pity someone you kind of innately see them as like

01:01:30.940 below you to some degree you know lesser intelligence and you know um a bit childlike

01:01:38.020 you know i think they they i think the the trope is like the noble savage you know they're not

01:01:43.040 they're not able to think for themselves you must protect them um and it's not something that i

01:01:48.020 notice um all english or white people doing it's people who are tethered to the idea of what it

01:01:55.340 means to be a good person or what it means to be an ally and that's why we have to be careful

01:02:00.880 anybody let's say who you know if you're if you're committed to seeing your life as a battlefield

01:02:05.820 go for it but you have to be careful that when you're asking for allyship you're not asking people

01:02:11.980 to um uh to pity you you know and to treat you like a child and to tread on eggshells around you

01:02:21.820 because nobody who if they if if someone doesn't feel like they can be honest with you they don't

01:02:28.420 respect you very much i know that in myself i mean i try to respect everyone you know a base sort of

01:02:34.000 universal level however the people that i think are most intelligent are the people that i don't

01:02:39.380 tread on eggshells around you know and you know more and more i can see people are inviting in

01:02:47.260 a worldview where they're asking for that you know and it's not the same as being thoughtful

01:02:51.620 it's not empathy you know empathy isn't pandering to your worldview you know empathy is being able

01:02:57.020 to understand where you might be coming from so yeah I do find it incredibly patronizing but then

01:03:04.500 many people don't but what I would say to a lot of people is read the room you know like in the

01:03:10.120 sense of I think if you if you speak to someone you can see who needs this sort of protection

01:03:15.880 And who doesn't, you know, but again, because people are different, it's not a one size fits all. So what one black person may enjoy and feel is like, you know, allyship or solidarity. Another person just sees as entirely condescending. 0.84

01:03:30.820 i mean we could talk for hours and uh you talk about the need for courage and clarity on this

01:03:38.880 stuff i want to acknowledge you for being courageous and coming on the show thank you

01:03:42.380 and being very clear about a lot of the stuff and it's life is complicated man yeah life is

01:03:48.780 complicated and we shouldn't undermine that to promote a narrative because if we're doing that

01:03:54.520 i just think we're harming the people that we claim to want to help um we need them to be able

01:03:59.560 to embrace the grey

01:04:00.480 and because we need them

01:04:01.680 to be able to embrace that

01:04:02.660 within themselves

01:04:03.280 or at least acknowledge it's there.

01:04:05.860 Embrace the grey.

01:04:06.620 Well, we've got one final question for you.

01:04:08.580 And it's a question

01:04:09.200 we always finish with,

01:04:10.840 which is,

01:04:11.620 what is the one thing

01:04:12.320 we're not talking about

01:04:13.380 as a society

01:04:14.520 that we really should be?

01:04:17.900 Maybe we're not talking about

01:04:19.740 how easy it is to become

01:04:22.000 the thing that we dislike

01:04:22.920 and how sometimes

01:04:24.300 the thing that we strongly dislike

01:04:27.940 in other people

01:04:28.580 is an unchecked part of ourselves.

01:04:30.040 So maybe we should be talking about

01:04:31.460 our own capacity for destruction.

01:04:34.200 That seems very apt at the moment.

01:04:35.860 Yeah, it does.

01:04:37.020 What's the Nietzsche quote?

01:04:38.400 When you're fighting monsters.

01:04:39.620 Those who fight monsters should see to it

01:04:41.860 that they do not become monsters themselves.

01:04:44.000 For when you stare into the abyss,

01:04:45.840 the abyss also stares into you. 0.99

01:04:47.340 All right, mate, no need to fucking show off. 0.99

01:04:49.940 There we go. 0.99

01:04:50.920 Aisha, where can people follow you?

01:04:52.840 My Twitter or my Instagram,

01:04:55.620 that's my name, Aisha underscore Canby.

01:04:58.100 That's A-Y-I-S-H-A-T underscore Akambi, A-K-A-N-B-I. 1.00

01:05:04.200 And you're working on a book?

01:05:05.820 Yes, I am.

01:05:07.160 So, yeah.

01:05:08.360 Well, we'll get you back on to talk about it when you've got it out.

01:05:10.840 Thank you very much for watching and listening.

01:05:12.660 We'll see you very, very soon with another interview or a live stream.

01:05:16.200 Absolutely, if we don't get cancelled and thrown into the river.

01:05:19.080 See you soon, guys.

01:05:28.100 We'll be right back.

TRIGGERnometry - June 21, 2020

＂Victimhood is a State of Mind＂ - Ayishat Akanbi

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