Ayesha Akambi is a fashion stylist, writer, podcaster and podcaster. In this episode, she talks about her journey to becoming a podcaster, how she got her start on the internet, and why it s important to speak your mind.
00:01:24.580and that's how most people have got to know me through the internet and maybe around 2013-14
00:01:34.020I started using my voice a little more on the internet. I had a situation in my personal life
00:01:40.100where someone really close to me died and that really changed my ideas and my outlook on the
00:01:45.820world and I guess I was just sort of searching for answers in really strange places. I mean I
00:01:51.320even did the whole kind of religious route like spent some time in like churches trying to find
00:01:55.920lances spent some time like searching through like my family uh they're Muslim and so I spent
00:02:02.240some time trying to kind of get my my head around Islam and things like that all kinds of things
00:02:08.060all sorts of belief systems I traveled through um and then eventually I just kind of felt like
00:02:15.440you know, the best thing to do is just be myself. You know, I didn't feel like I needed
00:02:21.420any sort of belief system to express my views. And so maybe in around 2018, I think this is how
00:02:32.860maybe you guys know me, I think it was 2018, I'd recognized there was a new sort of belief system
00:02:39.140that was taking hold, you know, of a lot of my friends and a lot of the people that I was around.
00:02:44.820And even when I was kind of looking for something to believe in, if you like, I just realized that a lot of those people didn't often have self-awareness.
00:02:55.340They often weren't rooted in just, I don't know, some of the fundamental principles that I was interested in.
00:03:00.660And then I recognized this new thing kind of taking over everywhere.
00:03:05.120And maybe some people call it wokeness. Some people call it identitarian politics.
00:03:09.660There's lots of different names for it. But I made a video.
00:03:12.760it was called or I was interviewed it was called the problem with wokeness um I was just speaking
00:03:17.880my mind I didn't know anything that I was saying was potentially controversial um and yeah here I
00:03:24.120am and you know what we might stick a little bit of that at the front so people can see what you're
00:03:29.240talking about but uh one of the things I wanted to talk to you about because it's fascinating to me
00:03:34.680is you and I were having a conversation about you coming on the show and we've been talking
00:03:39.240probably about a year now yeah we have been and we set up times and didn't quite work and and and
00:03:43.840and in the end i kind of confronted you a little bit i was like hey how have we not managed to
00:03:48.380make this happen and you were like you know what i've been reluctant to come on why is that
00:03:53.800and my reluctance to come on it's funny because that's the entire reason why uh i made the video
00:04:00.540or why i think the interview resonated with a lot of people is there's an idea now and it's
00:04:07.620quite a prevalent idea that if you speak to someone who has the so-called wrong views then
00:04:13.720you are wrong by adjacent um and people that's you sister well yeah
00:04:18.580but it's a it's a really silly idea to say the least because you know if you're not talking to
00:04:29.600people who think differently then you're speaking to the choir you know and that doesn't make sense
00:04:33.680because the world isn't made up of people who think like us.
00:04:39.300And then I kept thinking to myself, well, if you don't go on and talk to people,
00:04:44.300then you're not being a woman of your own principles, you know.
00:04:47.800And I will speak to anybody, anybody that's reasonable,
00:04:50.000anybody that's open to conversation or who can hear something that they disagree with
00:04:53.840without that meaning that someone is hateful,
00:04:56.720without sort of deducting that that means someone is hateful.
00:04:59.260Those are the kinds of conversations I want to have.
00:05:01.300And so when you cornered me about it, I was like, yeah, you know what, I have to do this because, you know, there's a lot going on and we're not talking to each other.
00:05:11.140And I think that's a huge part of the problem.
00:05:13.960The thing that I find actually really upsetting is how if you see a person who's an ethnic minority, particularly though if they're black, the moment they come out as not having woke or liberal views, it's almost like they've betrayed their entire race.
00:05:27.660They use horrendous racist language, smear them, all the rest of it. Why is that?
00:05:34.400I think people think that if you don't share their views, then you are somehow letting the side down.
00:05:42.320And you can only think this because they have a very narrow conception of what it means to be black or whatever identity it might be,
00:05:50.680which in itself is, you know, at least a form of prejudice if you don't want to call it anything else.
00:05:55.620and it's harmful and there are many perspectives and ways to view an issue and if we are cancelling
00:06:03.860out all of those voices because they are inconvenient then we're cheating ourselves
00:06:08.240out of like you know expanding our awareness. And you said it's prejudice don't you think it's a
00:06:16.460form of racism the fact that you know somebody will look you know look at somebody of a particular
00:06:20.520current and go oh therefore you know you're black therefore you should be this you should be that
00:06:24.600you should be whatever else, instead of the fact that they're a human being, which being black has
00:06:29.260nothing to do with their politics or whatever else. Yeah, well, I guess because in this sort of
00:06:34.880ideology, if you like, you can't just be black. Being black isn't actually just a skin colour.
00:06:40.100And maybe that's what I think a lot of people don't understand. Being black is innately political
00:06:45.260to these people. And what they mean by that is something I understand is, you know, if you are
00:06:51.280black in this conception because of how other people view you which may not always be positive
00:06:57.540they feel like the response to that has to be innately political or that you have to be
00:07:01.880political that is how that you are showing up for your race if you like um and so because they don't
00:07:07.580think it's just a skin color they think being black means that you have to be political it's
00:07:11.700a political statement what do you think i don't think being black is a political statement
00:07:15.200No, I think, you know, it's an immutable characteristic.
00:07:21.640You know, it could have been anything else.
00:07:23.360I don't think my race defines me in any way or any aspect of my identity, really.
00:07:31.340Of course, being black means that, like, I guess I might have a bit more of a vested interest in some of the issues around race and racism.
00:07:41.480But no, I don't think beyond that, that it informs much of my interests or worldviews.
00:07:47.980I was just going to finish this train of thought because so there's this idea that if you are an ethnic minority, that you have to be sort of liberal.
00:07:57.340But it doesn't also take into account, like, for instance, my mother is from South America.
00:08:00.920Everybody can drink now. But, you know, and she came to this country as a first generation immigrant.
00:08:05.600But like a lot of first generation immigrants, she's incredibly conservative.
00:08:09.820You know, she's religious. She's not only conservative fiscally, but socially.
00:08:13.420It doesn't take into account that actually a lot of first generation and ethnic minority communities are incredibly socially conservative.
00:08:21.540So thinking they're going to be woke is it's just wrong, isn't it?
00:08:24.580Yeah, no, it doesn't. And I think it's because we have in many ways or sort of downloaded the American discourse around race.
00:08:35.600And we've imported it here. And it's not sort of like a one size fits all T-shirt, you know.
00:08:41.360But because we kind of use it that way, we're not necessarily embracing reality because you are right.
00:08:49.660You know, my parents are Nigerian. I grew up with my mother and she is very socially conservative.
00:08:54.960You know, that's very much. Yeah, that's very much her worldview, although she votes on the left.
00:09:01.400but you know there's even there's ways to even look at hip-hop if you like you know as somewhat
00:09:07.320conservative in its ideals if you think about the fact that it's very much about competition
00:09:12.680you know it's very much about like you know consumerism materialism like it's it's very much
00:09:18.480you know you can even denigrate the poor just completely you can just be out there and just
00:09:22.860be like you're poor so you're a piece of shit you know you can actually say that i like the fact you
00:09:27.400said that to me as well you chose the right target to address here and not to say that that's what
00:09:32.780conservative think conservative people think but it's a very pull yourself up by your bootstraps
00:09:37.140philosophy yes you know that's quite innate in hip-hop and so actually you know socially
00:09:42.340conservative ideas kind of exist in in many different aspects of of different you know
00:09:48.160black communities so i don't even know where to go i mean one you say you're a fashion stylist
00:09:56.900and a writer but when i watch and observe what you put out there i'd say you're a philosopher
00:10:02.120if anything that's kind that's i hope you don't think i'm overstating it but that's definitely
00:10:07.240my feeling our producer is nodding over there so i'm right basically is what i'm saying you're
00:10:10.980wrong about your identity i'm right i get to define what you are and you're a philosopher
00:10:15.680we'll clip that just me telling a black woman i guess it's one of those things i think a philosopher
00:10:23.140is one of those things you can't call yourself. You know, if you have anything like that that's
00:10:28.400in your being, I think that should be for other people to decide. I just maybe don't get out
00:10:34.120enough and I think too much. Yeah. So you do think a lot and very, very well about these issues. So
00:10:40.600one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about is something my wife and I talk about all
00:10:45.300the time, which is how much of this victimhood culture that, you know, wokeness very much has
00:10:51.900embraced and driven forward is about people projecting their own personal shit their trauma
00:10:57.900their the difficulties whatever and i'm not even talking about like experiences that you have as an
00:11:03.640adult i'm talking about when you're five years old you know and then taking that and projecting that
00:11:10.120onto the world and as we know from all the psychological research if you come into the
00:11:14.460world with a with a with a filter then you see that reflecting back at you and this is something
00:11:20.620you talk about very well so tell us more about that yes um and this is why in what i try to put
00:11:28.760out in my message if i can call it that um i very much uh preach for the need for um self-awareness
00:11:36.440just as much as we have uh social awareness i think because we have uh maybe um we're sort of
00:11:44.740overexposed socially but we're not necessarily that engaged with ourselves to know where a lot
00:11:50.020of our ideas are coming from. And so I do think there is, it's not surprising that let's say the
00:11:57.480mental health discussion rose to the mainstream at the same time as wokeness. You know, I think
00:12:03.760there's something to look at there. You know, a lot more people are, you know, acknowledging
00:12:10.240anxiety, depression, and it's not just about, you know, anxiety and depression can also be,
00:12:16.200It can also impact the way that you see yourself, the way that you see the world.
00:12:21.980The reason why they can be troublesome states to be in, apart from feeling terrible, is that it can kind of, it can distort reality.
00:12:32.460You know, it can very much distort reality.
00:12:36.740And also there's a reason as to why the word trauma has almost become a buzzword, some people might say.
00:12:42.540You know, I'm sure if there was some like, you know, data on like how much the word trauma comes up on Twitter, I think it would be extremely high.
00:12:51.880And so when you don't have an outlet to to sort of deal with your issues, to process your issues, I think some people can choose an ideology or a belief system or maybe wanting to change the world.
00:13:09.380because I guess it's a lot easier to want to change the world than it is to look at yourself,
00:13:13.460you know, which is why we often talk about accountability.
00:13:16.080I notice everyone is always talking about, you know, you have to be accountable.
00:13:19.440You have to be accountable. But no one ever talks about responsibility.
00:13:23.500You know, responsibility is a bit of a dirty word, it seems, to a lot of people.
00:13:27.500And again, because it's easier to demand accountability from other people
00:13:31.680than it is to take responsibility for the things that you've been through.
00:13:35.160And, you know, the problem with victimhood. And, you know, there's a very big difference between victimized and victimhood.
00:13:41.920You know, victimized is something we could have all felt at different points.
00:13:45.080But victimhood is a state. It's a state. It's almost a philosophy within itself.
00:13:49.800It's a way of perceiving the world and it comes with its own form of entitlement.
00:13:54.980And the funny thing is, you know, is the word narcissism gets a lot of flack on the Internet.
00:13:59.620And, you know, a lot of people talk about being victims of narcissistic abuse.
00:14:03.440But part of narcissism is victimhood, you know.
00:14:07.420And so I think that a lot of people, because they don't have the means or they don't have the, what would I call it?
00:14:18.220Because I think to recognize that, you know, a lot of your ideas are driven by a certain axe that you have, you know, against the world or, you know, a gripe that you have.
00:14:28.980I think that can be quite confronting.
00:14:31.080and we live in a culture where everybody wants to feel emotionally safe constantly all the time
00:14:36.920and so these two things they don't marry well you know like being honest with yourself and
00:14:42.660wanting to feel safe they don't marry very well at all no no you know so these don't really work
00:14:49.060and so that's why i think we're in a state where people can't truly be that honest about where a
00:14:55.500lot of their ideas are coming from and i know this a little bit because i i guess i was in it you
00:14:59.480You know, there was a point where I had swallowed a lot of these ideas, which is maybe why I'm quite passionate about speaking about them, because I know how blinding they can be, you know.
00:15:09.820And we sort of glamorize anger and rage.
00:15:13.020And the thing about anger and rage is it's blinding, you know, like a lot of people will justify the wrong things that they do because they were angry.
00:15:19.720I was angry. I didn't mean to punch you, you know, like.
00:15:24.180And so I think anger can be maybe a an interesting place or a productive place maybe to to occasionally visit because it can make us productive and it can make us it can spark ideas and creativity.
00:15:35.280But it can't be a final resting place. And so I think when you are swallowing ideas that, you know, it's good to be angry all the time, you know, and like everything is the fault of everyone else.
00:15:50.660You know, everything that has gone wrong in your life is to do with this person.
00:15:54.060These are very seductive ideas. And when I was sort of entrenched in some of these beliefs, yeah, it was completely a distortion of reality.
00:16:03.280You know, the fact that I had worked my way and become a stylist and I guess as far as I guess as far as any sort of standard metric would go, I was fairly successful.
00:16:12.660Maybe you could say, you know, that doesn't mean that all my problems were gone, but, you know, I was doing well, you know, but that didn't matter.
00:16:19.100It didn't matter that I was doing well because someone else was doing better, you know, and I think this is the way a lot of people have come to conceive the world.
00:16:27.260And do you think this identity or this ideology is addictive?
00:16:31.380Yes, I think it can be addictive. Yes, because it's comfortable. It's what you know.
00:16:37.600I don't think I don't necessarily I try not to demonize it too much.
00:16:41.420And that's hard because it's annoying.
00:16:44.040You know, it can be very annoying. But I have to remember that, you know, I've been in a similar state.
00:16:49.100I would say I wasn't so combative when I was there because that's just not my personality.
00:16:53.060I didn't think all disagreement meant hate. However, it can be addictive because
00:16:58.740built into the ideology, if you like, of victimhood is innocence. If you're a victim,
00:17:05.940then you're innocent. If you're a victim, then you're innately virtuous. And so that is,
00:17:12.480and if you're a victim, then everyone else is the oppressor and everybody else is the aggressor.
00:17:17.060So it's a state that's quite seductive because it's one where people don't ever truly have to look at themselves.
00:17:24.760And as we may know, that looking at yourself is hard.
00:17:27.780And you mentioned the word being oppressed.
00:17:30.080And you're someone who takes a lot of care when you use words and when you think about words.
00:17:34.780And you talk a lot about oppression versus discrimination.
00:17:40.840Yeah, I mean, I've always paid attention to the language that I use.
00:17:45.340And for one, because, you know, even if I had a platform of just 100 people, that's still 100 people who were listening to me who could potentially be influenced.
00:17:54.080And if you care about people who you may deem vulnerable or the most vulnerable, I think how you speak to them and what you allow them to believe of themselves and their reality is very important.
00:18:04.920And so for me, I've always wondered, you know, like, is what I have faced, you know, oppression or is it discrimination?
00:18:10.960Because the two don't seem to be the same to me.
00:18:14.480discrimination seems to be something that anybody could face for any reason you know
00:18:19.140probably have yeah and yeah definitely you know if you're someone who's overweight if you've got
00:18:23.980ginger hair like when i was in school like those guys just got ripped on all the time
00:18:27.340like yeah that's fair enough yeah you know but anything if you've got acne you know if you're
00:18:32.620considered to be unattractive all of these kind of things can allow you to be discriminated against
00:18:38.140your voice how you speak your accent all these sorts of things and so um and i have you know
00:18:43.820I've definitely had people, especially when I was in school, I grew up in Southampton.
00:18:48.160My school was predominantly white. There weren't many black people there.
00:18:52.080And so there were people who, let's say, made fun of my hair.
00:18:54.800I'm like, oh, you've got trolls hair. And there were people who, you know, made fun of like my features and stuff like that because they were different.
00:19:02.440And at the time, of course, it was hurtful. But it wasn't, if I'm honest, truly different to anything that the ginger kid wasn't going through.
00:19:10.120And I would call that discrimination. I wouldn't call that oppression. I think if you can go online and you can call out your government and you can say anything about white men and you can say anything about any people with very little repercussion, I think that might be the evidence that, you know, you might not be oppressed.
00:19:30.260well you make that point and look it's a very i mean it's a very contentious issue to get into
00:19:36.680but we're going to have to get into it which is you know you mentioned you can say whatever you
00:19:40.820want about white men and let's be honest you can say things about certain groups of people that
00:19:45.520you can't say that about others is that sustainable no i don't think it makes sense to
00:19:51.440talk about people in a way that you wouldn't accept yourself because human psychology means
00:19:58.320for every action, there is a reaction and there's a consequence. So if people feel like one group
00:20:04.780is allowed to get away with a certain type of behaviour that another one isn't, that's not
00:20:10.440going to work well. You know, it's not at all because not everybody is right. I mean, not
00:20:14.480everybody is versed in racial history or racial politics. Not everybody cares. We can't make
00:20:19.260everybody care. So no matter what your justification is for why you believe it's OK to completely
00:22:12.040what you've been watching or listening to.
00:22:15.500Your internet service provider knows what you do.
00:22:18.400That's right, you're listening to this
00:22:19.820and you've got a lovely little blush on your cheeks.
00:22:22.340And that's why, even when I'm at home, I never go online without using ExpressVPN, right?
00:22:29.640So it doesn't matter who your internet service provider is.
00:22:33.640If it's Verizon, Comcast, or any other of the myriad of options,
00:22:38.180in the US, it is absolutely legal for them to sell your search history to advert providers.
00:22:44.860So everybody in the corporate world will know what a dirty little so-and-so you are.
00:22:50.540ExpressVPN is an app that reroutes your internet through their servers so that your internet service provider can't see the naughty little sites that you visit.
00:23:02.700And ExpressVPN also keeps all of your information secure by encrypting 100% of your data with the most powerful encryption tools available.
00:23:13.520So nobody will notice the naughtiness.
00:23:15.120All you need to do is visit my exclusive link, expressvpn.com slash trigger, and you get an
00:23:23.240extra three months on a one-year package. That's E-X-P-R-E-S-S, vpn.com slash trigger.
00:23:33.540To find out more, simply go to the website, expressvpn.com slash trigger, and then you'll
00:23:41.100be able to hide from everybody the fact that you watch this show. And the thing that I worry about
00:23:51.620when they do things like that, or, you know, someone tweets, oh, it's just another old white
00:23:55.440man, is essentially you're dividing the races. You're creating a divide between the races. So
00:24:02.880there are going to be people who look at that and go, well, you know what? I'm not going to
00:24:06.480listen to what you say anymore because I'm white, therefore I'm wrong. And then you've got a small,
00:24:10.080very toxic minority who look at that, rub their hands with glee and go, we can create division here.
00:24:15.700Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think people underestimate how much people want to be heard and how much
00:24:22.320people want to belong. It's part of the reason why we have this ideology that is so sort of
00:24:28.320dominant in the mainstream right now, because to not be a part of that is to isolate yourself
00:24:37.320and potentially leave yourself open to accusations of fascism, racism, all of the phobias.
00:24:45.540And so when you are telling people that they can't speak because of their skin colour,
00:24:52.100or when you're speaking about someone in a way that you would no way have within yourself,
00:24:57.420you don't recognise that you also are radicalising people.
00:25:01.060You're pushing people over to a certain side.
00:25:03.720Because if people no longer feel, let's say, that they have a voice on the left,
00:25:07.320And people don't want to listen to them on the left. They will go somewhere else.
00:25:11.560I mean, the argument to that is, well, I guess if they could so easily be swayed, then they were never true leftists.
00:25:15.840And I don't think people are truly, truly appreciating human psychology there.
00:25:23.300You know, we want to be heard. But it's also I mean, you say it's so easy if they so easily move to the left.
00:25:29.520it's not easy it's taken some people 10 years to to make the journey from being oh i'm super lefty
00:25:36.000to oh wait shit like on this particular issue i i'm just not wanted i mean look at jk rowling
00:25:42.000right right little miss lefty all the time you know all the right opinions you know all the
00:25:47.280all the right causes supporting all the stuff there's one issue and this is what i i've been
00:25:53.120talking about for some time they will always find a way in which you don't fit and so that journey
00:25:59.380it's not been like oh this you know it's so easy to get people to move it takes a hell of a lot of
00:26:05.880badgering and battering and you know offending and whatever to get people to make that transition
00:26:11.520and i i see that i think we see that happening right now a lot of people you know with jake
00:26:16.200around as a good example a lot of people are going to be on her side now in a way that they
00:26:21.120might not have been before because you're forcing them to to make a choice between what they know
00:26:24.780to be true and what they think is the right thing am i no no you're right there maybe what i meant
00:26:30.360is it's so easy as i meet so many more young people who almost see uh being on the right is
00:26:36.180like quite a counterculture thing to do you know which is interesting because you know you know
00:26:40.940like conservatism you know sort of symbolizes tradition and you know and and keeping thing
00:26:45.960keeping the order so it's not necessarily the most rock star thing to do you know but
00:26:50.640A lot of young people are sort of seeing it that way now. And so I think maybe for them it may be easier. In J.K. Rowling's case, yeah, I think people do, people who believe they have the good politics, people who believe they are the good people, they are way too quick to assume nefarious intention to anybody that doesn't share their beliefs.
00:27:44.880You know, the gender issue and the transgender discourse mainstream at the moment is complicated, for some might say, and some might say it's quite simple, you know.
00:27:55.620But however, the idea that sex and gender, sex and gender are separate is something I think majority people probably still believe in, you know, because if you don't spend your time on Twitter and you haven't got like, you know, a gender studies degree.
00:28:11.420And if you aren't sort of reading a lot of the contemporary gender texts, then you probably will think this. And so to assume that anybody who wants to fight for that category is hateful. Well, then, you know, you're going to be thinking about that's a lot of black people. That's a lot of Muslim people.
00:28:31.120You know, that's a lot of people that we also on one breath say that we want to help and that we should protect, you know.
00:28:38.580And so I think especially on that issue, as it is very contentious, people have to start listening to each other.
00:28:46.480And I think as long as you are accusing each other and calling people names and trying to smear reputations, it's not conducive to the movement.
00:28:58.080It's not conducive to the trans children that you believe are vulnerable.
00:29:01.840I don't think it's it's just not productive.
00:29:05.880I don't necessarily often care necessarily too much about like whether it's right or wrong, because that can be subjective to lots of different people.
00:29:12.600But what's constructive? And I don't think, as we can quite clearly see, everything that's been happening in that area has been very constructive.
00:29:19.620But there's also these people, and I've seen them myself and they're people in my industry, who have, for want of a better term, jumped on this debate, made it more toxic in order just to push their own brand, what they do, increase their followers and so on and so forth.
00:29:45.480So like people jumping on the bandwagon of a movement?
00:29:49.140Yeah. And then going, you know, silence is violence. You know, people going, you know, like all white people, if you don't support every aspect of Black Lives Matter, you are part of the problem.
00:29:58.660Yeah. Again, this is not this is not grounded in reality to me. You know, there are a myriad of issues that we are silent on.
00:30:05.740So if we're going to say silence is violence, then let's just also keep that message and narrative consistent and acknowledge that we're all violent then.
00:30:14.940You know, because there are lots of things that we are silent on that affect a lot of people, even black and brown people.
00:30:20.820There was a brilliant tweet the other day.
00:30:24.380Some people came up with the idea that silence is consent and they made T-shirts.
00:34:40.420does that say something innately about their morality?
00:34:42.660I do not think so. It's very likely that a lot of us don't necessarily know in Britain, let's say, know, let's say the plight of a, you know, a typical Pakistani woman in her village, you know, and us not knowing her plight.
00:34:58.480Does that reflect, you know, our morality? I don't think so. Or the fact that we're not speaking for her issues. I don't think so.
00:35:04.480People can protest when it comes to the the rioting aspects, which some people justify.
00:35:13.540Again, I come back to, you know, constructive right now.
00:35:17.620We are still in the middle of a pandemic and we're saying that, you know, black and brown people are more susceptible to dying as a result of this.
00:35:26.820And people are mass gathering when before we were saying that, you know, we're not ready to go back to work.
00:35:32.800And we're saying all of these things. It just seems to, again, it's not consistent.
00:35:38.180And I think, you know, let's say with the writing, a lot of people, a lot of people's businesses who are minorities, they've lost their businesses.
00:35:46.040I don't see how that can be beneficial to them.
00:35:50.600I think if we acknowledge that there is a problem with the American police in terms of brutality and which actually does affect people of all races.
00:36:01.140And if there's a disproportionate, let's say, a disproportionate level of violence against black men, having young black men come face to face with the police, you know, because of the riots, knowing that they use brute force.
00:36:17.560Again, I don't know if that is constructive. Protest, it's going to happen, especially when we are not necessarily sure of all of the facts, you know, and when we are more grounded in, let's say, narrative than concrete reality.
00:36:38.100And even when we are, you know, grounded in reality, people want to protest.
00:36:42.380That's just going to happen. But I think the way to do it, there is a way to do it.
00:36:46.980And I think there's a way to do it that can also be sort of undermining of your overall goals.
00:36:54.760And why do you think it is with the Black Lives Matter movement?
00:36:58.700People, we all agree that, of course, Black Lives Matter, of course they do.
00:37:02.520but the black lives matter movement and the organization is very very political now someone
00:37:09.380who comes from a country where i've seen socialism rise and fail in the most awful way possible
00:37:14.760i read some of what they say and i'm i'm not down with it really you don't want to
00:37:20.460you don't want to abolish the police man you know why is it that the moment i say that i'm going to
00:37:26.640go and say to Anton, fucking cut that bit immediately. But why is that? That you can
00:37:32.200support Black Lives Matter, but the actual political organisation, if you criticise it,
00:37:37.600you feel like you're done. Because people have made Black Lives Matter synonymous with being
00:37:44.180black or black people. And people have almost framed it as if if you want to not be a racist,
00:37:49.720then you can only do it through this filter. You can only do it through, let's say, the theory of
00:37:54.680anti-racism or through Black Lives Matter. That's not true. You know, like a lot of us can not be
00:38:01.740racist, you know, like, you know, I'm sure you guys have managed to get here today, you know,
00:38:05.960without necessarily perpetuating any racism, you know, and a lot of us can do this without
00:38:11.040necessarily having to embrace an organization that might be counter to a lot of the things
00:38:20.500that we value and that's not necessarily again you know we can't use uh racism like a paracetamol
00:38:27.460and put it on everything you know we can't do that um it doesn't work you know and so
00:38:32.700it's just not it's just not the case even if we want it to be that everybody who doesn't agree
00:38:39.860with a certain way of doing things is doing it because they think that you're an inferior race
00:38:46.140But, yeah, I think because, you know, Black Lives Matter is huge, it's global.
00:38:50.520I think we just genuinely think that this is the only way that you can support black lives.
00:38:54.860This is the only way that you can not be racist.
00:38:58.240Again, I think it comes back to the fact that this ideology or this worldview, if you want to call it that, is very black and white, you know, excuse the pun.
00:53:12.880I see the word good person, I see the right side of history, you know.
00:53:16.680I see those kind of things in the digital arena,
00:53:21.640But I think we need to be courageous. We need to have principles, not just beliefs, you know, because I think there's a difference between principles and beliefs.
00:53:29.960You can believe something because it's trendy to. But if you have a principle, let's say, to a principle of fairness, let's say you have a principle of fairness that.
00:53:41.620That sort of determines how you speak to people that determines what you won't do, even though it's popular to, you know.
00:53:48.580And so I think we need to develop principles, not just beliefs, because beliefs change with the wind.
00:53:53.400You know, they're fads most of the time, ideological fads.
00:53:57.040But you don't fall into these fads when you have principles.
00:54:00.580I think we need to be able to trust ourselves to some degree.
00:54:06.020I think we all should be more curious and interested in each other.
00:54:09.440I think we shouldn't assign ill intent to everybody.
00:54:15.440I think it's self-important because I think if you're living in the real world, you understand that most people are indifferent to your existence.
00:54:25.840And if most people even understood how much most of us hate ourselves to whatever degree, we don't have time to hate someone else for the most part.
00:55:29.700For instance, I grew up in a part of South London.
00:55:31.920The pub down the road from me was a BNP pub and England fag-fying all the time.
00:55:37.080My family, cousins who came over from Venezuela, racially abused, called the P word.
00:55:41.880all the rest of it. And I saw London and society as a whole get better, not get perfect, but get
00:55:46.560better. Do you think we're at real risk of going back to that place or maybe a different place,
00:55:53.940which is equally worse? I relate to you when you say that things are getting worse. And I think
00:56:00.540if we spend enough time online, it can be very despairing and very demoralizing and isolating.
00:56:07.780And that's one of the reasons as to why I think this movement deserves a lot of critical analysis and interrogation, because if they believe that they are speaking for the minorities, I don't believe that they are.
00:56:25.240I think they're speaking for an ideology, you know, because when a black brown person, gay person, trans person doesn't subscribe to these ideas, then, you know, you call them fascists.
00:56:36.460You know, so this is a movement that is made a lot of people feel extremely alienated.
00:56:44.740And I think there are consequences to that alienation.
00:56:48.360And so maybe it's one of these cases where it has to get worse before it gets better.
00:56:53.880I don't know if it's sustainable to to build a worldview on things that aren't necessarily true or at least not grounded in facts.
00:57:06.460um but then you know when i when i meet someone who isn't on twitter you know i i do i do sometimes
00:57:14.300you know see that glimmer of hope yeah um because yeah but you know but the problem is is that it's
00:57:19.320very influential you know like i have um black and mixed friends from southampton uh who again
00:57:27.080they know nothing about race nothing at all they've they are let's say you know fairly working
00:57:32.940class like they get along with everybody they they they date every any anybody of any race
00:57:38.820you know and I'm seeing some of them on Instagram you know just when I because like I said I am not
00:57:43.940scrolling but you know I'll go in to check a message and then I'll see like someone from
00:57:48.380Southampton talking about every reason why she is oppressed now you know and I and she never felt
00:57:57.800that way before you know she never saw herself like that and i don't know if her now seeing
00:58:05.460herself through such a lens i don't know what that does for her you know and and that's my my
00:58:10.020real issue with this you know i think life is complicated and tough enough and we are asking
00:58:14.900people to essentially view themselves through the lens of people that you are convinced dislike them
00:58:20.080what about the argument which some people might make it applies less in your case because
00:58:24.860if this person is black, you're black, then presumably you would be able to talk about
00:58:29.000these issues before. But like if a white person, let's say, was to say, well, you know, I have a
00:58:33.880black friend and, you know, he didn't used to think this way. And now he does. A lot of people
00:58:38.200might say, well, actually, he did think that way. He was just not prepared to talk about it because
00:58:42.960because what has happened is the Black Lives Matter movement has allowed a voice for people
00:58:47.400who've otherwise not been able to speak. Well, yes, I think anybody who is a minority within a
00:58:53.200majority, I think there are quite natural things that you could feel, you know, and this could work
00:58:58.680anywhere in the world, you know. So there are genuine feelings, I think, of maybe sometimes
00:59:06.320not feeling like you belong and not feeling like, and maybe, you know, some feelings of inferiority
00:59:16.820that you've internalized through media portrayals and all of these kinds of things. I think those
00:59:21.580things are real um however you know uh let's say a movement might like black lives matter
00:59:28.760might might articulate let's say some of these things that you felt and didn't know how to put
00:59:34.420words to but maybe what's not necessarily there is that like everybody is against you
00:59:40.840you know and like everybody who doesn't understand your experience um it doesn't understand from a
00:59:47.480place of racism as opposed to we are all occupying different realities you know so let's say if your
00:59:54.500worldview is completely comprised of everything you've experienced why is it so hard to understand
01:00:00.380that someone else's is you know you know and and i think once we kind of can understand that we are
01:00:06.260all occupying uh this world in very different ways um i i think that can help it doesn't have
01:00:15.120just because someone doesn't understand everything about you and how could they you know we don't
01:00:20.540even understand everything about ourselves you know that doesn't mean that like they are gunning
01:00:26.260for your downfall you know and i think again like teaching people these things to people that you
01:00:32.040guys deem vulnerable i think i think is irresponsible do you think we're quite
01:00:39.340patronizing the way we see ethnic minorities in this country in the sense that you know that how
01:00:45.680we you know we can't say this because you know you've got to protect them or whatever else or
01:00:50.880do you see where i'm going with this yeah yeah and i sometimes do your own cancellation that's
01:00:55.360where you're fucking going mate but i just sometimes see the way that people you know
01:01:00.120discuss these issues and you know oh you can't say it like this you've got to now say it like
01:01:04.220this and it's like they're an adult they're intelligent they can decide on their own
01:01:08.200evidence whether they agree or disagree yeah why do you feel that you have to protect people
01:01:12.600yeah because i guess they don't recognize the difference between compassion and pity
01:01:17.680you know and i think a lot of people think compassion is pit no they've mistaken their
01:01:24.120their pity for compassion um and so when you pity someone you kind of innately see them as like
01:01:30.940below you to some degree you know lesser intelligence and you know um a bit childlike
01:01:38.020you know i think they they i think the the trope is like the noble savage you know they're not
01:01:43.040they're not able to think for themselves you must protect them um and it's not something that i
01:01:48.020notice um all english or white people doing it's people who are tethered to the idea of what it
01:01:55.340means to be a good person or what it means to be an ally and that's why we have to be careful
01:02:00.880anybody let's say who you know if you're if you're committed to seeing your life as a battlefield
01:02:05.820go for it but you have to be careful that when you're asking for allyship you're not asking people
01:02:11.980to um uh to pity you you know and to treat you like a child and to tread on eggshells around you
01:02:21.820because nobody who if they if if someone doesn't feel like they can be honest with you they don't
01:02:28.420respect you very much i know that in myself i mean i try to respect everyone you know a base sort of
01:02:34.000universal level however the people that i think are most intelligent are the people that i don't
01:02:39.380tread on eggshells around you know and you know more and more i can see people are inviting in
01:02:47.260a worldview where they're asking for that you know and it's not the same as being thoughtful
01:02:51.620it's not empathy you know empathy isn't pandering to your worldview you know empathy is being able
01:02:57.020to understand where you might be coming from so yeah I do find it incredibly patronizing but then
01:03:04.500many people don't but what I would say to a lot of people is read the room you know like in the
01:03:10.120sense of I think if you if you speak to someone you can see who needs this sort of protection
01:03:15.880And who doesn't, you know, but again, because people are different, it's not a one size fits all. So what one black person may enjoy and feel is like, you know, allyship or solidarity. Another person just sees as entirely condescending.
01:03:30.820i mean we could talk for hours and uh you talk about the need for courage and clarity on this
01:03:38.880stuff i want to acknowledge you for being courageous and coming on the show thank you
01:03:42.380and being very clear about a lot of the stuff and it's life is complicated man yeah life is
01:03:48.780complicated and we shouldn't undermine that to promote a narrative because if we're doing that
01:03:54.520i just think we're harming the people that we claim to want to help um we need them to be able