TRIGGERnometry - We Deserved To Lose

00:00:01.000 We got it wrong on immigration. I'm not here to tell you that actually it was all fine.

00:00:05.580 So would you leave the ECHR?

00:00:07.220 If we have to, yes. But what I'm not going to do is say, we'll leave the ECHR and then we'll work it out later.

00:00:12.360 That's what we did with Brexit and look what happened.

00:00:15.540 But what I'm not going to be arguing is, should we have 75,000 or 76,000?

00:00:19.620 But the question isn't that.

00:00:20.780 It's a fake debate.

00:00:22.220 It's not a fake debate.

00:00:23.280 It's not a fake debate because the question is, should we have 1.2 million people?

00:00:27.140 No. 1.2 million is way too high.

00:00:30.460 Let's work our way down. Should it be 800,000? Should it be 700?

00:00:34.480 Where is that line?

00:00:36.180 And what we saw at the last election, and granted, yes, we deserve to lose,

00:00:40.940 was people giving us a kicking but not liking the thing they got instead.

00:00:46.760 I think people voted for reform because they looked at the Conservative Party

00:00:51.300 and they went to quote something you said in the speech.

00:00:54.960 Talk right, but govern left.

00:00:58.600 I'm trying, but the problem is you're not answering my question, right?

00:01:01.220 I have answered the question.

00:01:02.000 No, you haven't.

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00:01:13.680 featuring all the songs you love, including America, Forever in Blue Jeans, and Sweet Caroline.

00:01:19.420 Like Jersey Boys and Beautiful, the next musical mega hit is here,

00:01:23.500 The Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise.

00:01:26.160 April 28th through June 7th, 2026, the Princess of Wales Theatre.

00:01:31.220 Get tickets at mirvish.com.

00:01:33.080 Broadway's smash hit, The Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise, is coming to Toronto.

00:01:40.420 The true story of a kid from Brooklyn destined for something more,

00:01:43.940 featuring all the songs you love, including America, Forever in Blue Jeans, and Sweet Caroline.

00:01:49.700 Like Jersey Boys and Beautiful, the next musical mega hit is here,

00:01:53.780 The Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise.

00:01:56.400 Now through June 7th, 2026, at the Princess of Wales Theatre.

00:02:00.440 Get tickets at mirvish.com.

00:02:04.600 Kermit Badenoch, leader of the Conservative Party, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:02:08.520 Thank you, Constantine.

00:02:09.440 It's great to have you on the show.

00:02:10.800 And you're frantic.

00:02:11.520 Yeah.

00:02:12.740 Been meaning to have you on the show for a while.

00:02:14.600 It's great to have you on.

00:02:15.940 Before we get into all the political chat,

00:02:18.300 you know, one of the things that always troubles us with politics is

00:02:21.100 someone just pops up and suddenly they're a person

00:02:23.420 and you don't know anything about them, you don't know their background, etc.

00:02:26.020 So, who are you?

00:02:27.860 Who am I?

00:02:28.440 So, I am someone who believes that conservatism needs fighting for in the world that we live in.

00:02:38.160 And when I talk about conservatism, I mean traditional conservative values,

00:02:43.160 the importance of family, but also things that used to be considered liberal values,

00:02:48.660 but which helped make this country great.

00:02:50.280 You know, equality under the law and treating everybody equally.

00:02:53.480 I got into politics for many reasons.

00:02:57.880 But one of them was that I hated identity politics.

00:03:02.220 And I could see that society, or certainly the state,

00:03:05.620 was beginning to create a hierarchy of groups and people,

00:03:09.360 which is not right and certainly not going to build cohesion.

00:03:13.540 And I wanted to fix that.

00:03:14.800 But I also am someone who is very worried about the West and the future of the West.

00:03:20.840 I'm worried about the next generation.

00:03:22.940 I was born in 1980, so I'm 45 now.

00:03:24.960 And I look at what life was like for me growing up.

00:03:29.880 And I grew up in two places.

00:03:31.320 I grew up here, but also in Nigeria with a brief year in the US.

00:03:38.260 And I remember the 80s being a glorious time.

00:03:41.740 You know, I was there when Ronald Reagan was president.

00:03:43.600 And it was always a good future.

00:03:46.300 I remember being in my 20s.

00:03:47.800 And if I was depressed, it was because there were so many opportunities

00:03:51.080 and I didn't know which one to take.

00:03:52.820 That is not how young people feel today.

00:03:54.940 They are despondent about the future.

00:03:57.100 They think that the climate is burning, planet is burning.

00:04:00.720 They don't have a good job.

00:04:04.180 And if they do, they still can't afford enough to, you know, get a mortgage.

00:04:08.900 Or they've got, you know, so much debt from university

00:04:12.740 that they don't even know where to start.

00:04:14.440 And we haven't been giving them hope and optimism.

00:04:16.560 We've got to start talking about the declinism, the managerialism

00:04:20.360 that I think is bringing the West down.

00:04:22.080 A lot of what I just call unseriousness.

00:04:24.340 There is a lot of unseriousness.

00:04:26.300 And we've just got to get our mojo back.

00:04:28.640 And that's why I'm doing this.

00:04:30.280 And I think everyone who watches our show would absolutely agree

00:04:33.600 with everything you've just said.

00:04:35.260 However, the massive problem, it seems to me, for you and your party

00:04:40.160 is that the immediate and obvious counter-challenge to that is,

00:04:44.560 well, your party's just been in power for 14 years

00:04:48.080 and we still have identity politics.

00:04:51.780 We have people being arrested for tweets under that government

00:04:55.360 and the new one.

00:04:56.780 And all of the things you're talking about,

00:04:58.720 they didn't really seem to get better over the last four years.

00:05:01.500 They're getting worse now, of course.

00:05:02.580 So, you know, what do you say to that?

00:05:06.180 I would say, look at Donald Trump.

00:05:08.840 When he was president, all of those things were happening.

00:05:12.120 Identity politics got worse, you know, issues with free speech.

00:05:15.780 And often it's about learning what went wrong.

00:05:19.140 My party made a lot of mistakes, but the party's under new leadership now.

00:05:22.880 I am the leader.

00:05:23.680 And when I was in government, I was fighting all of those things

00:05:26.940 which people hated.

00:05:28.260 And when I was doing it, I wasn't getting thanks for it.

00:05:30.740 I remember in the middle of COVID,

00:05:33.120 when everyone was talking about how COVID was killing ethnic minorities

00:05:37.140 and, you know, Labour MPs were shouting about how

00:05:40.060 this is a death sentence for black people.

00:05:42.680 I said, hang on, we're going to look at what's happening.

00:05:44.820 We need to stop this nonsense.

00:05:46.320 We had a report that looked at what was actually causing it.

00:05:49.100 Multi-generational households, the jobs that people did.

00:05:51.940 And also, we made sure that we got out a report that looked at what was going on

00:05:57.340 with race in the UK.

00:05:59.160 And who was really suffering?

00:06:00.720 It was white working class boys.

00:06:02.200 And I went out there and spoke up for them.

00:06:05.080 And what did I get in exchange?

00:06:06.660 Being called the black face of white supremacy.

00:06:09.420 So I fought all those things.

00:06:11.480 Self-ID would be law now in Scotland if I hadn't stuck my neck out.

00:06:15.420 People were calling me a transphobe or a homophobe.

00:06:18.140 But I don't care about those things.

00:06:19.580 I don't care about the insults.

00:06:21.200 I believe that we do the right thing.

00:06:23.260 And I can see the things that we did that went wrong.

00:06:25.840 I know why they went wrong.

00:06:27.740 And I want...

00:06:28.320 Why? Tell us.

00:06:28.900 I want a chance to fix it.

00:06:30.920 Sure. Tell us why.

00:06:31.780 It is the same thing that's been going on.

00:06:33.260 It's been going on for decades, not just in this country.

00:06:35.340 It's been going on for decades.

00:06:36.900 It is politicians telling people what they want to hear

00:06:40.440 instead of telling people the truth.

00:06:42.660 And so they make announcements without figuring out

00:06:45.800 how they're going to deliver it.

00:06:46.980 So I'm an engineer and my training is before you start saying

00:06:50.520 what you're going to do, you look at feasibility,

00:06:52.640 you have a plan, you draw it up.

00:06:54.200 But you look at something like net zero.

00:06:56.600 I was in the chamber that day.

00:06:57.800 I was a backbencher, a relatively new MP,

00:06:59.880 but I've been an MP for about two years.

00:07:02.020 And this thing is announced.

00:07:04.860 There's a 90-minute debate.

00:07:06.120 And I stand up and I ask, okay, lots of kids are going to love this.

00:07:09.120 You know, school children, my constituents,

00:07:10.800 you were always writing about it.

00:07:12.840 But how's this going to work?

00:07:14.740 And I was dismissed, waved away by the minister who said,

00:07:18.080 you know, in due course, the plans will come.

00:07:21.020 That minister I hear now works in the green sort of lobby and industry.

00:07:26.240 But we put that into legislation and said,

00:07:29.460 well, we're the first people to put this into legislation.

00:07:32.000 And then we started looking at the plans.

00:07:35.320 That's too late.

00:07:36.220 That's the wrong way around.

00:07:37.060 And that is why we now have net zero policies,

00:07:40.080 which Labour is doubling down on and making worse,

00:07:42.540 that are not going to deliver net zero

00:07:44.480 and will make us poorer or de-industrialising.

00:07:47.580 Same thing with Brexit.

00:07:49.220 I wasn't even an MP when we voted in the referendum.

00:07:52.920 I voted leave because I thought, actually,

00:07:55.340 if Europe wants to go in a particular way,

00:07:57.760 why don't we just step off here and we stay close,

00:08:00.840 but we do our own thing?

00:08:02.800 Getting to Parliament the next year, there's no plan.

00:08:05.420 Triggered Article 50, you know, lots of talk about leaving the EU

00:08:09.960 and becoming a minister.

00:08:11.960 I kept trying to force my colleagues,

00:08:14.660 let's have a plan, not just announcements.

00:08:17.560 I ended the supremacy of the European Court of Justice

00:08:20.500 in Parliament end of 2023.

00:08:24.920 I also did a whole load of deregulation,

00:08:28.860 not as much as I would have liked.

00:08:30.300 Some of it was just quite tough, needed more time.

00:08:32.940 But the criticism that I often get is,

00:08:35.820 well, why didn't you do more?

00:08:37.000 And I tell people that if I wasn't there,

00:08:38.540 we would have got a whole load of hot air

00:08:40.740 and nothing would have happened

00:08:42.260 because people kept saying,

00:08:43.600 we're going to scrap everything.

00:08:45.400 And I would ask, well, how are we going to scrap everything?

00:08:47.440 What about this thing that everyone loves?

00:08:49.180 And it's that kind of mindset that needs to change.

00:08:52.500 We need to stop making promises with no plan.

00:08:56.580 If people tell you they have a policy with no plan,

00:08:58.980 it's just an announcement.

00:09:00.180 And that's what we're seeing with Labour.

00:09:01.340 Agreed. I suppose the reason I'm putting this question to you

00:09:04.980 is not so much that I'm trying to pin you to the wall.

00:09:07.520 The bigger concern for me is the stay of the country

00:09:10.180 and the future of the country.

00:09:11.240 And the reason I'm asking this is that

00:09:12.900 if I'm a conservative voter, I'm listening to this.

00:09:16.020 I tell the story at dinner parties a lot

00:09:17.700 because people react with both shock and laughter every time.

00:09:21.120 Shortly after the last election, I happened to be...

00:09:23.540 This is 2024?

00:09:24.820 Yes.

00:09:25.080 I happened to be in a room with a bunch of people,

00:09:27.140 one of whom was a Tory MP.

00:09:28.960 And I asked him, why did you lose the last election?

00:09:32.340 And he went, oh, we lost it to the Lib Dems.

00:09:34.040 We went too far to the right.

00:09:36.140 Now, yes.

00:09:37.380 Just so you know, that's not why we lost.

00:09:40.440 I know.

00:09:41.900 And so does everybody who laughs, just as you did at that story.

00:09:45.160 But my point is, you can say you were a great minister

00:09:49.060 who did all these things, and let's accept that as given,

00:09:51.480 not even disputing that.

00:09:52.580 You're in charge of a party that's full of these people.

00:09:56.800 The people who failed to do their jobs,

00:09:59.460 the people who promised things they couldn't deliver,

00:10:01.660 the people who think they lost the last election to the Lib Dems.

00:10:05.400 How are you going to deal with that?

00:10:07.260 So a lot of people will be speaking from their own personal experience.

00:10:11.820 And there's nothing wrong with that.

00:10:13.540 But the bottom line is that I am the leader,

00:10:15.820 and the party always takes the shape of the leader.

00:10:18.420 It doesn't mean that everyone in the party suddenly becomes a zombie

00:10:21.940 who is going to agree with the leader.

00:10:23.820 But leadership is about forging a path,

00:10:26.260 taking people in a particular direction.

00:10:28.240 The party under David Cameron was very different

00:10:30.680 from the party under Theresa May,

00:10:32.560 different from the party under Boris Johnson, and so on.

00:10:34.980 So you have to look at the person at the top,

00:10:37.740 and then you will understand what's going to happen.

00:10:41.420 Of course, there are always going to be people who disagree.

00:10:44.120 But one of the things that I think the Conservative Party

00:10:46.940 did well for a long time was be loyal

00:10:49.940 and show that when a decision is taken, we all go that way.

00:10:53.680 There were many things, many, many things

00:10:56.200 that I was unhappy about in government.

00:10:58.480 But I had the battles behind closed doors, not out in France.

00:11:03.120 And what happens when you step outside

00:11:05.120 and start telling everyone how terrible it is,

00:11:07.580 is that a lot of division is created.

00:11:10.360 People then just park your party to the side

00:11:12.560 and say these people are not fit to govern

00:11:14.680 because they're always arguing.

00:11:16.000 So creating unity behind a proper purpose

00:11:19.380 is absolutely critical.

00:11:20.800 That is what I am doing.

00:11:22.140 Everybody's forgetting.

00:11:23.060 But this time last year, you know,

00:11:24.880 we were all at each other's throats.

00:11:26.260 So that's certainly what it looked like in the papers,

00:11:28.060 which over-egged things.

00:11:29.600 People talk about putting letters in,

00:11:31.980 getting rid of Rishi,

00:11:33.620 and who was plotting leadership battles and so on.

00:11:39.100 I was often named in those things, all untrue.

00:11:41.900 And we've gone beyond that.

00:11:44.500 And I think that that's not an easy thing

00:11:46.240 that should be recognised.

00:11:47.660 But I need to make sure that I take the party with me.

00:11:51.060 But the other thing that I'm going to do

00:11:52.960 is make sure that when the next batch of people come in,

00:11:55.860 that they are people who agree with this new way of thinking.

00:12:00.100 We are not the Liberal Democrats.

00:12:02.180 We are the Conservative Party.

00:12:03.720 You know, we're the oldest and most successful party

00:12:05.780 in the history of Western democracy.

00:12:08.000 But that doesn't mean we're going to be there forever.

00:12:10.360 The Liberals used to be a big party, and they died out.

00:12:14.020 And the Liberal Democrats are not even

00:12:15.620 the inheritors of that tradition.

00:12:17.360 There's something completely different.

00:12:18.980 We need to get serious, not be complacent.

00:12:21.420 And I think a lot of people assumed

00:12:23.660 that we would always be the party of the right.

00:12:26.860 And so let's try and move a little bit left

00:12:29.900 and get these other voters.

00:12:31.340 But actually, many of the people they were trying to win over

00:12:33.780 would never vote for us in, you know, a gajillion years.

00:12:37.440 You've got to look after the people who share your values first.

00:12:40.760 That, in my view, is how you rebuild a party,

00:12:43.600 rebuild that trust, and then you can get a chance

00:12:46.140 to deliver for the country.

00:12:47.680 Kemi, do you think you're going to actually be able

00:12:51.420 to rebuild that trust?

00:12:52.540 Because there are a lot of voters in this country

00:12:55.260 who are done with the Conservative Party.

00:12:58.240 People that I speak to, the people I would see

00:13:00.340 as a traditional Conservative voter, including people

00:13:03.620 like my mother, who voted Conservative all her life,

00:13:06.720 first-generation immigrant, she says that she wouldn't

00:13:10.040 vote Conservative again in her lifetime.

00:13:12.180 And for someone like me who knows my...

00:13:14.420 That is a shocking statement.

00:13:16.000 It is, and it's always depressing when I hear those things.

00:13:19.440 But I will never give up, and I will never give up

00:13:21.580 on those people, because those people voted Conservative

00:13:24.440 for a reason, and they did not see us demonstrating

00:13:28.000 the things that they were voting for.

00:13:29.720 In fact, quite often, when I was out knocking on doors,

00:13:31.960 people would tell me, I'm voting for you, not your party,

00:13:34.740 because I know you're a good egg, or because I know

00:13:36.820 you will do the right thing.

00:13:38.180 And we need to start demonstrating what that authentic

00:13:41.220 conservatism looks like.

00:13:42.820 But the other thing that I tell people is that

00:13:45.820 this is not strictly come dancing or, you know,

00:13:50.400 I'm a celebrity, get out of here.

00:13:52.200 What you vote for, you have to live with.

00:13:54.780 It's not an award for the Conservative Party

00:13:56.780 for being the right kind of party.

00:13:58.520 And what we saw at the last election, and granted, yes,

00:14:01.500 we deserve to lose, was people giving us a kicking,

00:14:06.800 but not liking the thing they got instead.

00:14:09.200 Not voting Conservative gives you some other options.

00:14:12.880 Labour, which people hate now.

00:14:15.540 Lib Dems, who are well to the left of Labour,

00:14:18.040 not a serious party.

00:14:19.780 You can vote reform, but voting reform last time

00:14:22.900 got more Labour.

00:14:23.920 And what I see in a lot of places is anger mostly

00:14:28.760 from people who were Conservative voters,

00:14:30.740 who definitely did not want the Labour Party,

00:14:34.360 voted reform to give us a kicking,

00:14:37.000 and now have things like VAT on private schools,

00:14:40.360 things we would never do,

00:14:41.900 things like the winter fuel payments being taken away,

00:14:44.960 and just all sorts of things.

00:14:47.140 You know, the farms tax, for instance,

00:14:49.200 it's just an immoral tax.

00:14:50.680 It's so wrong.

00:14:52.140 And what I want people to know is that

00:14:54.340 we are doing this not for ourselves, but for you.

00:14:57.460 And we got this wrong.

00:14:58.920 We got things wrong.

00:15:00.100 But the party's under new leadership.

00:15:02.240 We're going to tell hard truths.

00:15:03.920 We're going to do things differently.

00:15:05.280 And we're not going to shy away from tough topics.

00:15:08.060 And rebuilding trust, in my view, is like a breakup.

00:15:11.220 You know, if you break up with people,

00:15:12.360 you don't just say, oh, you know,

00:15:13.460 your next boyfriend or your next girlfriend is shit.

00:15:15.380 You come out and say, I'm sorry, and I'm going to be better.

00:15:20.300 And you make yourself better.

00:15:21.940 You make yourself a better product, in my view.

00:15:24.520 And there's no point complaining about reform or Labour.

00:15:27.740 We are in a competitive political environment.

00:15:30.720 When you're in a competitive environment,

00:15:32.320 you make sure you are the best.

00:15:33.660 And that means that we need to get cleaned up

00:15:35.340 and offer people a credible alternative.

00:15:38.040 But, Kemi, you said because people voted reform

00:15:40.460 because they wanted to give the Conservative Party a kicking.

00:15:43.240 I'm going to be honest with you.

00:15:44.360 I don't think that's the case, Kemi.

00:15:45.920 I think people voted for reform

00:15:48.240 because they looked at the Conservative Party

00:15:50.580 and they went to quote something you said in a speech,

00:15:54.420 talk right but govern left.

00:15:57.340 Yes, yes.

00:15:58.240 I think that is also true.

00:15:59.900 But this is why I say the Conservative Party

00:16:01.720 is under new leadership.

00:16:03.420 I talk right and I govern right

00:16:05.420 because that's what I believe.

00:16:06.760 I am not in any way an admirer of left-wing politics

00:16:11.960 because I've lived under what left-wing politics delivers

00:16:15.040 and it's pretty horrible.

00:16:17.860 I lived under socialism.

00:16:19.600 It didn't call itself socialism

00:16:20.820 and it was with soldiers.

00:16:23.140 Everything was run by the government.

00:16:24.780 It was terrible.

00:16:25.980 No electricity, no water.

00:16:27.480 And people assume that it's just developing country,

00:16:29.800 you know, malaise.

00:16:31.820 It is countries where there are no property rights,

00:16:34.840 no freedom of speech,

00:16:36.240 none of the things that help make countries,

00:16:38.820 especially in the West, successful,

00:16:40.820 you know, countries like Japan.

00:16:41.920 We need to start talking about what creates prosperity,

00:16:45.720 what creates a secure, high-trust country.

00:16:48.460 And that is what I'm offering.

00:16:50.940 Let me introduce you to the people I work with

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00:18:19.600 That may be what you're offering,

00:18:22.200 but I think very much now

00:18:23.760 that reform has all the energy behind it.

00:18:27.860 And I saw an opinion poll recently

00:18:29.940 which said that reform

00:18:31.100 was actually higher in the polls

00:18:33.340 than the Conservatives.

00:18:34.620 That is a massive blow, isn't it?

00:18:36.760 Considering the fact that reform was,

00:18:38.960 I mean, it was created, what,

00:18:40.560 barely a year ago, a year and a half ago?

00:18:42.880 Well, reform is a new iteration

00:18:45.140 of what was Brexit Party,

00:18:46.980 what was UKIP.

00:18:47.700 In 2019, we were at 9% in the polls

00:18:51.600 and the European elections

00:18:53.060 were won by the Brexit Party

00:18:54.780 by a country mile.

00:18:56.360 So I have seen this before.

00:18:58.460 In the 1980s, the SDP was polling

00:19:00.900 well over 50%, 50%.

00:19:03.560 And they were saying,

00:19:04.800 go to your constituencies

00:19:05.720 and prepare for government.

00:19:07.460 An opinion poll is a snapshot

00:19:09.280 of how people are feeling in the moment.

00:19:11.940 An opinion poll is not a general election.

00:19:14.120 And what I need to do

00:19:15.360 is the job that people have given me.

00:19:17.360 There's be an effective opposition,

00:19:19.460 hold Labour to account,

00:19:20.500 get them to course correct.

00:19:21.800 And we've got to do that across the board,

00:19:24.180 not just on the issues

00:19:25.760 that lost us the election.

00:19:27.520 On education, for instance,

00:19:28.800 I've been able to force a U-turn.

00:19:31.220 Not enough, but we've done that

00:19:32.660 because we pointed out

00:19:33.660 and exposed a lot of the rubbish

00:19:35.340 that they're doing to academies.

00:19:37.200 They're going to destroy education

00:19:39.120 for the next few years.

00:19:40.260 And it's going to take some fixing.

00:19:42.180 Which party is going to be able to fix that?

00:19:45.100 You know, we need to look at

00:19:46.280 what the offer from the other parties is.

00:19:48.800 I managed to get them to have

00:19:51.000 not a national inquiry,

00:19:53.140 but some inquiry on grooming gangs,

00:19:55.720 which they were not going to do.

00:19:57.040 Hold on.

00:19:57.360 Was that you or Elon Musk that forced that?

00:19:59.160 Well, it was me.

00:20:00.280 At the end of the day,

00:20:01.080 Elon Musk is not in the chamber.

00:20:02.700 And if you want to wait for Elon Musk

00:20:04.560 to make Labour do things,

00:20:06.200 I think you'll be waiting a long time.

00:20:07.800 We need to look at what happens

00:20:10.520 in Parliament in this country.

00:20:12.760 And I can't just sit back

00:20:13.880 and hope that Elon Musk

00:20:14.740 is going to save things.

00:20:15.580 There's lots that we've done

00:20:16.520 on Winterfuel, for example.

00:20:18.240 I talked about the farms tax.

00:20:19.680 One of the things that we're trying

00:20:20.800 to raise more awareness of

00:20:22.060 is what is happening with business.

00:20:24.460 Businesses are closing

00:20:25.640 at an unprecedented rate.

00:20:27.640 People are leaving the country,

00:20:29.120 not just millionaires,

00:20:30.580 young people,

00:20:31.360 all the sparky entrepreneurial young people

00:20:33.320 are saying there's no future for me here.

00:20:36.140 The tax is too high.

00:20:37.300 The national insurance,

00:20:39.120 jobs tax, as we call it,

00:20:40.680 crushing business.

00:20:41.940 Someone has to speak up for that.

00:20:43.500 Elon Musk is not going to do that.

00:20:45.320 You know, I like his tweets

00:20:46.280 as much as anyone else,

00:20:47.320 but I've got a job to do.

00:20:48.800 And I can't give up and say,

00:20:50.180 well, reform is doing all right,

00:20:51.500 so I'm just not going to do anything.

00:20:52.980 I've got to make sure

00:20:54.080 that I'm working every second

00:20:55.340 of every day to do that.

00:20:56.860 And that often means

00:20:57.820 quite a lot of stuff

00:20:58.480 that's behind the scenes.

00:20:59.600 It can't always be

00:21:00.680 in front of a camera.

00:21:02.120 A lot of the groundwork

00:21:03.160 requires deep thinking,

00:21:04.440 a lot of preparation,

00:21:05.440 a lot of meetings,

00:21:06.120 building that coalition

00:21:07.700 of support across the board.

00:21:09.060 And I agree with you,

00:21:10.060 but I also think

00:21:11.380 there is an element here

00:21:12.700 that people feel betrayed,

00:21:14.600 Kemi,

00:21:14.880 and they feel betrayed

00:21:16.020 about immigration.

00:21:17.440 Because in 2016,

00:21:19.640 look, Brexit was essentially

00:21:21.820 a referendum about immigration,

00:21:23.340 where the country said

00:21:24.920 we want immigration lowered.

00:21:27.020 A conservative government said

00:21:28.500 we are going to lower immigration.

00:21:30.620 That's the reason

00:21:31.300 we're going to pursue Brexit.

00:21:32.360 And then you've had

00:21:33.360 immigration practically doubled.

00:21:35.760 People are furious about it.

00:21:37.920 And I think that is the main reason

00:21:39.780 they're flocking to reform.

00:21:41.740 Immigration,

00:21:42.660 if you ask reform sympathisers,

00:21:45.080 reform voters,

00:21:45.780 is always the number one issue.

00:21:47.220 But it's the number one issue

00:21:48.260 for Lib Dems

00:21:49.400 and also conservatives,

00:21:50.860 surprisingly.

00:21:52.000 We got it wrong on immigration.

00:21:54.180 I'm not here to tell you

00:21:55.080 that actually it was all fine.

00:21:56.980 And we do need

00:21:58.460 to rebuild trust.

00:21:59.960 But the immigration system

00:22:01.860 went wrong

00:22:02.620 for lots of reasons

00:22:04.060 that only we know about.

00:22:05.740 Labour are bringing in a bill

00:22:07.200 next week

00:22:08.140 that's going to make it easier

00:22:10.340 for illegal migrants

00:22:12.500 if this is to gain citizenship.

00:22:14.620 So let's deal with the problem

00:22:16.220 that's in front of us.

00:22:17.200 I know that we made mistakes

00:22:18.820 in the past.

00:22:19.500 And in government,

00:22:20.720 certainly,

00:22:21.120 I was arguing

00:22:21.940 that this was going too far.

00:22:23.260 When I became a new MP,

00:22:25.120 I had, you know,

00:22:25.940 my constituents,

00:22:26.960 you know,

00:22:27.160 high-class research institutes

00:22:28.960 saying we can't get

00:22:29.920 the right people.

00:22:30.620 Can you help us?

00:22:31.580 And we lobbied

00:22:32.120 for a points-based system.

00:22:33.360 You know,

00:22:33.520 let's not have a cap.

00:22:34.280 Let's just have the brightest

00:22:35.060 and the best people here

00:22:36.580 and then it'll be great.

00:22:38.080 What happened?

00:22:39.040 Low-skilled migrants

00:22:40.300 with dependents.

00:22:41.660 And we allow our system

00:22:43.800 to be exploited

00:22:44.980 by people

00:22:46.120 who are willing

00:22:47.000 to take advantage of it.

00:22:48.120 You need very hard-nosed

00:22:49.200 people monitoring it.

00:22:50.360 And that's not just ministers.

00:22:51.500 I say this

00:22:52.100 as a former minister.

00:22:53.500 Ministers are often

00:22:54.520 the last people

00:22:55.260 to find out

00:22:55.780 what's going on

00:22:56.380 because you only know

00:22:57.420 what the civil servants

00:22:58.700 tell you.

00:22:59.640 And we had a system

00:23:00.900 that took about a year

00:23:02.260 before we found out

00:23:03.180 what had happened.

00:23:04.120 And after that,

00:23:05.020 we started tightening things.

00:23:06.240 We tightened things

00:23:06.800 in 2023 and 2024.

00:23:08.960 Not enough,

00:23:09.620 too late, yes.

00:23:10.480 But we know

00:23:11.100 what went wrong.

00:23:12.000 And that's why

00:23:12.720 I've been talking about

00:23:13.660 having a hard cap

00:23:14.640 on visas.

00:23:15.660 We need a hard cap

00:23:16.440 on visas now,

00:23:17.260 legally.

00:23:17.540 We also need

00:23:19.040 to change the rules

00:23:20.560 on indefinite leave

00:23:21.340 to remain.

00:23:22.120 This is a big loophole.

00:23:23.680 It's just a conveyor belt

00:23:25.140 for people having

00:23:26.000 the rights

00:23:26.440 to stay here permanently.

00:23:27.800 We've also got to look

00:23:28.800 at a lot of,

00:23:29.520 you know,

00:23:29.860 the legal system,

00:23:31.360 ECHR,

00:23:32.320 judicial activism.

00:23:33.460 So would you leave

00:23:34.400 the ECHR?

00:23:35.100 If we have to, yes.

00:23:36.300 But what I'm not going

00:23:37.000 to do is say,

00:23:37.840 we'll leave the ECHR

00:23:38.800 and then we'll work

00:23:39.660 it out later.

00:23:40.260 That's what we did

00:23:40.820 with Brexit

00:23:41.600 and look what happened.

00:23:43.060 That is what people

00:23:43.860 keep doing.

00:23:44.660 They shout stuff

00:23:45.680 and they have no idea

00:23:46.860 how they're going

00:23:47.340 to deliver it

00:23:47.920 and then it's too late

00:23:48.860 and then people

00:23:49.480 get betrayed.

00:23:50.120 No, no, that's fair.

00:23:51.280 I suppose the question is

00:23:52.420 what are the circumstances?

00:23:53.800 For example,

00:23:54.680 look,

00:23:55.700 I'm guessing

00:23:57.040 you were born here, right?

00:23:58.020 So you're not an immigrant.

00:23:59.880 I wasn't born here.

00:24:01.160 I'm an immigrant.

00:24:01.800 But all of us

00:24:03.140 have an immigrant background

00:24:04.100 in our family, right?

00:24:05.060 All three of us.

00:24:06.300 And I don't think

00:24:07.000 there's anyone in this room

00:24:07.920 who thinks we should

00:24:08.980 close the border

00:24:10.240 and not let anyone in.

00:24:11.900 And I agree with you.

00:24:12.940 We should welcome

00:24:13.660 talented and driven people

00:24:15.040 because we need them

00:24:15.860 and they are contributors

00:24:17.520 to our society.

00:24:18.340 But the thing

00:24:20.120 that I think

00:24:20.880 irks everybody

00:24:22.080 is the idea

00:24:23.440 that we've got

00:24:24.220 tens of thousands

00:24:25.360 of people

00:24:25.920 coming into this country

00:24:27.020 illegally.

00:24:27.480 Illegally, yes.

00:24:28.500 And so when you say,

00:24:30.760 well, we will

00:24:31.300 if we have to,

00:24:32.040 I guess,

00:24:33.380 you know,

00:24:33.820 it's an obvious question,

00:24:35.300 but what's the right level

00:24:36.240 of illegal immigration?

00:24:37.280 So the reason why I say

00:24:38.420 if we have to leave

00:24:39.980 the ECHR,

00:24:40.720 we will,

00:24:41.380 is because other countries

00:24:42.700 are able to deal

00:24:43.760 with this illegal

00:24:44.980 migration issue

00:24:46.260 without leaving

00:24:47.300 the ECHR.

00:24:48.240 And I saw

00:24:49.360 from the inside

00:24:50.720 what happened

00:24:51.460 when we tried

00:24:52.520 to cordially

00:24:53.400 leave the EU.

00:24:54.780 The level of obstruction,

00:24:56.680 all the things

00:24:57.220 that people hadn't

00:24:57.880 thought about,

00:24:58.640 Northern Ireland protocol,

00:24:59.920 and so on.

00:25:00.880 So there are things

00:25:02.240 in our domestic legislation,

00:25:03.800 like the Human Rights Act,

00:25:04.840 that we need to change.

00:25:05.920 There are things like

00:25:06.480 indefinite leave to remain,

00:25:08.000 where if we fix that,

00:25:09.660 then we will massively reduce

00:25:11.100 the number of people

00:25:11.760 who have rights here.

00:25:13.140 One of the reasons

00:25:13.840 why immigration went up

00:25:15.260 is because a huge number

00:25:16.580 of people just left work

00:25:17.800 in 2019.

00:25:19.120 We're not talking enough

00:25:19.940 about the worklessness

00:25:20.700 that's going on.

00:25:22.980 People not working,

00:25:23.960 and then businesses saying,

00:25:25.000 well, we need more,

00:25:25.980 you know,

00:25:26.240 we need more immigrants,

00:25:27.220 we can't find people

00:25:28.000 in the UK.

00:25:28.740 Let's deal with the source

00:25:29.920 of the problem.

00:25:30.700 And that's how you get

00:25:32.120 a coherent approach.

00:25:33.880 But let's also deal

00:25:34.980 with the fact that we have,

00:25:36.620 I mean,

00:25:36.860 an open border might be

00:25:37.980 an exaggeration,

00:25:39.220 but we have a porous border.

00:25:40.680 We have people coming here

00:25:42.020 on boats,

00:25:42.700 among other ways,

00:25:43.940 landing on the beaches

00:25:44.780 and ending up

00:25:45.620 in a taxpayer-funded hotel.

00:25:47.380 How are you going

00:25:48.160 to stop that?

00:25:49.220 So, we need to have

00:25:51.320 a deterrent.

00:25:52.460 That was what we were

00:25:53.740 trying to do

00:25:54.260 with the Rwanda scheme,

00:25:55.580 and the election was called

00:25:56.740 after we got

00:25:57.340 the legislation through.

00:25:58.840 I think, really,

00:25:59.840 Rishi was trying

00:26:00.340 to make the election

00:26:01.120 a referendum on Rwanda.

00:26:03.020 That's how I saw it,

00:26:04.460 and in the end,

00:26:05.520 it was too late.

00:26:06.580 But without a deterrent,

00:26:07.960 where if you come here,

00:26:09.000 that doesn't mean

00:26:09.540 you're going to get

00:26:10.140 to stay here,

00:26:11.100 we will not be able

00:26:12.360 to reduce the numbers

00:26:13.240 of people.

00:26:13.640 It was even working.

00:26:15.220 Ireland said that it saw

00:26:16.440 an increase in people

00:26:17.700 coming to Ireland

00:26:18.500 because they heard

00:26:19.200 the Rwanda scheme

00:26:19.980 was coming in.

00:26:21.200 Labour have scrapped that.

00:26:22.400 So, we have no deterrent,

00:26:23.580 and maybe it should be

00:26:25.120 a different country

00:26:25.800 like Rwanda or whatever,

00:26:27.680 but to not have

00:26:28.700 any deterrent at all,

00:26:30.180 in my view,

00:26:31.340 is just not serious.

00:26:32.280 I agree,

00:26:32.820 but your deterrent is

00:26:34.000 you come here

00:26:35.000 and then we send you

00:26:35.940 to a different country.

00:26:37.320 That's the deterrent.

00:26:38.180 Yes, for knowing

00:26:39.240 that you will not

00:26:39.880 get an automatic right.

00:26:41.300 People know how

00:26:42.060 to work the system.

00:26:43.620 Why can't we just

00:26:44.540 turn the boats around?

00:26:46.200 For several reasons.

00:26:48.160 I have spoken to people

00:26:49.320 in the Navy

00:26:50.420 who have given reasons

00:26:51.520 why they wouldn't do it.

00:26:52.960 They worry about

00:26:53.580 loss of life.

00:26:54.280 They talk about sailors,

00:26:55.460 British sailors,

00:26:56.180 or about saving lives,

00:26:57.320 not losing them.

00:26:58.660 Turning the boats around

00:26:59.680 without loss of life

00:27:00.680 is very difficult.

00:27:01.700 There might be a way.

00:27:02.820 Where are you

00:27:03.220 taking the boats to?

00:27:04.580 France.

00:27:05.060 That's their territory.

00:27:05.980 They can impound our boats.

00:27:07.740 Do we want to go

00:27:08.420 to war with France?

00:27:09.540 Not really.

00:27:10.560 It's a British tradition.

00:27:12.780 Well, that's certainly

00:27:15.160 not my policy.

00:27:16.600 But the other thing is

00:27:17.380 they also have this problem.

00:27:19.320 I was in France recently.

00:27:21.300 They have the same problem.

00:27:22.840 There should be

00:27:23.320 some cooperation.

00:27:24.240 We were paying their money

00:27:25.220 for cooperating,

00:27:26.600 not working.

00:27:27.400 But this is a problem

00:27:28.620 that needs a deterrent.

00:27:30.420 It needs us to get serious.

00:27:32.100 We shouldn't have people

00:27:33.780 having access to GPs

00:27:35.880 at the front of the queue

00:27:37.160 when they're illegal migrants.

00:27:38.620 People know how to work

00:27:40.060 the system.

00:27:40.880 A lot of these people

00:27:41.660 are not asylum seekers,

00:27:42.840 are not refugees.

00:27:43.900 So we need to crack down

00:27:45.320 on those who are

00:27:46.260 exploiting the system.

00:27:47.260 Your deterrent doesn't sound

00:27:48.280 like much of a deterrent

00:27:49.380 with all respect.

00:27:50.220 And, you know,

00:27:50.520 this is why I always bring up

00:27:51.460 the case of Australia.

00:27:52.580 As I'm sure you know,

00:27:53.960 they had a legal immigration

00:27:56.180 problem on boats.

00:27:57.820 And then in 2013,

00:27:58.860 they elected a government

00:28:00.100 led by Tony Abbott.

00:28:01.200 But last year,

00:28:02.720 I think the number of people

00:28:03.540 who came into Australia

00:28:04.360 illegally was 74.

00:28:05.860 And that's because

00:28:07.020 they have a very strong deterrent.

00:28:09.460 Yes.

00:28:09.880 And our deterrent model,

00:28:11.220 our deterrent policy

00:28:12.220 was modelled on Australia's.

00:28:14.060 But also, you know,

00:28:15.160 and Tony Abbott

00:28:15.600 is a good friend of mine.

00:28:16.520 I've spoken about this with him.

00:28:17.920 He was one of the people

00:28:18.880 who endorsed me

00:28:20.020 along with Ron DeSantis.

00:28:21.520 So I've spoken about this

00:28:22.820 with people all across the world.

00:28:24.660 Australia has places.

00:28:26.480 That's why we had Rwanda.

00:28:28.160 It's the same thing.

00:28:29.200 We don't have a little island

00:28:30.360 just off the coast of the UK

00:28:32.020 that we can just take people to.

00:28:34.080 Australia is also very far away

00:28:35.920 from almost anywhere

00:28:37.520 where the mass migration

00:28:38.880 is coming from.

00:28:39.740 So it's not exactly the same.

00:28:41.580 They also have different waters.

00:28:43.360 It's not like the channel

00:28:44.240 where it's very close

00:28:45.540 to another country's territory

00:28:47.340 and so on.

00:28:48.140 I've looked into this.

00:28:49.060 There are lots of complications.

00:28:50.300 We are working on this.

00:28:51.640 We will get a plan.

00:28:52.700 It'll be better

00:28:53.240 than what we had before.

00:28:54.580 But we need a deterrent.

00:28:55.880 The small boats crisis

00:28:57.480 is part of a global

00:28:58.840 mass migration problem.

00:29:00.620 I was in Italy two days

00:29:02.000 after the island of Lampedusa

00:29:03.700 had 8,000 people arrive on it.

00:29:05.840 That island has got 5,000 people.

00:29:07.880 So Georgia Maloney

00:29:08.740 is doing everything she can.

00:29:10.240 She's being obstructed.

00:29:12.200 You know, the issue is there in Germany.

00:29:13.800 We've got to look at this

00:29:14.800 as a global problem.

00:29:16.020 But we need to make sure

00:29:17.380 that we don't create

00:29:18.560 lots of enticements

00:29:19.580 in our country

00:29:20.420 that mean that once people get here,

00:29:22.400 they can slip away.

00:29:23.700 You know, detention centres,

00:29:25.480 for example,

00:29:26.500 do not hold people

00:29:27.820 the way I think

00:29:28.420 they should be holding them.

00:29:29.660 Some people are allowed

00:29:30.420 to move around freely.

00:29:31.640 They can disappear.

00:29:32.900 Yes, that might impact

00:29:34.060 their asylum application later.

00:29:36.440 But also,

00:29:37.340 if they know the system,

00:29:38.960 if they've got phones,

00:29:39.820 they have friends or family,

00:29:41.020 they can just disappear

00:29:42.080 into the economy.

00:29:43.640 We've got to look

00:29:44.300 at all those things.

00:29:45.360 It means more policing,

00:29:46.420 for example,

00:29:47.280 more focus on ensuring

00:29:49.420 that the people

00:29:50.740 who are here

00:29:51.920 are here for the right reasons.

00:29:54.100 And if they are fleeing somewhere,

00:29:56.300 they are genuinely fleeing,

00:29:57.680 they're not cutting the queue

00:29:59.400 and jumping to the front of it

00:30:01.240 across people

00:30:01.960 who have actually

00:30:03.100 done it the right way

00:30:04.340 and are waiting

00:30:04.880 to come to our country.

00:30:05.600 Well, I agree with you on that.

00:30:06.820 I know, it's totally not fair.

00:30:08.680 And what about legal immigration?

00:30:11.120 Because it seems to me

00:30:12.580 that we face a conundrum.

00:30:14.140 On the one hand,

00:30:14.680 as you say,

00:30:15.760 there is business demand

00:30:17.060 for more people

00:30:17.760 to come and fill jobs.

00:30:19.460 On the other hand,

00:30:20.300 I think we'd all acknowledge

00:30:21.280 that the British public

00:30:22.080 are very concerned

00:30:22.820 about the level

00:30:23.560 of legal immigration too.

00:30:25.820 What is the...

00:30:26.500 So we've had

00:30:27.160 over a million people

00:30:28.400 come into this country

00:30:29.480 in one year.

00:30:30.620 What do you think

00:30:31.540 is the right level

00:30:32.840 of immigration?

00:30:34.080 Now, I know

00:30:34.500 you don't want to commit

00:30:35.540 to, you know,

00:30:36.060 83,422.

00:30:38.520 I respect that.

00:30:39.800 But ballpark.

00:30:41.340 Okay.

00:30:41.640 Where should it be?

00:30:42.840 So...

00:30:43.360 At the moment.

00:30:43.960 Not forever,

00:30:44.760 but at the moment.

00:30:45.540 What I've always said

00:30:46.620 is that numbers matter,

00:30:49.500 but culture matters more.

00:30:51.840 We keep talking about

00:30:52.940 the numbers of people

00:30:53.760 coming in here.

00:30:54.720 We don't talk about

00:30:55.560 the people who are leaving.

00:30:56.940 And this is the thing

00:30:57.980 that terrifies me,

00:30:59.060 that, you know,

00:30:59.780 it's the ship of Theseus.

00:31:01.040 If you have

00:31:02.020 100,000 doctors leave

00:31:04.020 and you get 1,000

00:31:05.740 unskilled migrants,

00:31:07.920 your net migration numbers,

00:31:09.740 they're fantastic,

00:31:10.660 but your country

00:31:11.360 is not better.

00:31:12.220 We are not looking

00:31:13.320 at the real thing.

00:31:14.920 Who is coming

00:31:15.540 into our country?

00:31:16.420 Why do they want

00:31:17.260 to be here?

00:31:17.880 I remember

00:31:18.880 coming back to the UK

00:31:20.460 aged 16

00:31:21.140 and thinking

00:31:21.580 this is an amazing place

00:31:22.960 that why would anyone

00:31:24.500 not want to be here?

00:31:25.320 I know the pull

00:31:26.360 that the UK has,

00:31:27.900 but we have to make sure

00:31:29.260 that everybody who is here

00:31:30.680 buys into

00:31:31.660 what the UK is about

00:31:32.700 and they're not trying

00:31:33.600 to turn it

00:31:34.240 into wherever it is

00:31:35.280 they came from.

00:31:36.080 I don't want this country

00:31:37.080 to turn into Nigeria

00:31:38.600 or India

00:31:39.920 or wherever.

00:31:40.980 I want it to be

00:31:41.980 the place

00:31:42.800 that we all love

00:31:43.820 and that's something

00:31:45.020 that we don't talk about.

00:31:46.860 Once upon a time,

00:31:47.900 immigration happened

00:31:48.840 in small numbers,

00:31:50.540 slowly,

00:31:51.300 so that people

00:31:52.000 were absorbed

00:31:52.860 and assimilated

00:31:53.700 into society

00:31:54.620 and it wasn't because

00:31:55.760 they took a citizenship test

00:31:57.440 or government regulations.

00:31:58.960 Society did the integrating.

00:32:00.940 Now we're all told

00:32:01.840 you can't say this,

00:32:03.040 you can't say that,

00:32:04.140 the moral and cultural relativism,

00:32:06.100 everything is fine,

00:32:07.360 nothing is,

00:32:08.220 you know,

00:32:08.500 nothing should be criticized

00:32:09.460 and then we're seeing

00:32:11.140 the most extreme things

00:32:13.100 happening.

00:32:14.080 Manchester bombing,

00:32:16.020 hearing that the security guard

00:32:17.140 didn't want to ask a question

00:32:18.320 because he thought

00:32:18.920 it might be racist.

00:32:20.060 We're just seeing this

00:32:20.840 all over the place.

00:32:22.280 This is not how

00:32:23.420 you run

00:32:24.140 an immigration

00:32:26.020 or an integration policy

00:32:27.300 and that's where

00:32:28.320 we need to be.

00:32:29.220 Arguing about,

00:32:30.080 well,

00:32:30.160 should it be 80,000

00:32:31.160 or 70,000?

00:32:32.340 It should be

00:32:33.100 whatever we can sustain

00:32:34.340 for the long term.

00:32:35.600 It's different.

00:32:36.260 If people are having children

00:32:37.420 in this country,

00:32:38.480 we will not need people.

00:32:40.200 If people aren't having children,

00:32:42.440 then we have a problem.

00:32:43.400 So birth rate comes into it.

00:32:44.800 But what I'm not going

00:32:45.520 to be arguing is

00:32:46.320 should we have 75,000

00:32:47.820 or 76,000?

00:32:48.720 But the question isn't that.

00:32:49.880 It's a fake debate.

00:32:51.380 It's not a fake debate.

00:32:52.380 It's not a fake debate

00:32:53.280 because the question is

00:32:54.620 should we have 1.2 million people?

00:32:56.640 No.

00:32:57.260 1.2 million is way too high.

00:32:59.660 Let's work our way down.

00:33:00.780 Should it be 800,000?

00:33:02.120 Should it be 700?

00:33:03.080 Where is that line?

00:33:04.540 At some point,

00:33:05.660 we won't know.

00:33:06.860 What I'm saying

00:33:07.620 is that we know

00:33:08.560 we don't have enough houses

00:33:09.880 for people to put in.

00:33:11.260 We know we don't have

00:33:12.480 enough GPs.

00:33:13.660 We need to look at

00:33:14.760 and have a proper plan

00:33:15.800 for how,

00:33:17.100 what is a sustainable rate

00:33:18.620 of growth for the UK.

00:33:20.180 That work has not been done.

00:33:21.580 And what I'm not going to do,

00:33:22.800 as I said earlier,

00:33:23.840 is just make an announcement

00:33:24.780 and go,

00:33:25.420 well, I think it's about this much.

00:33:26.820 It's just not serious.

00:33:28.380 It's way too high.

00:33:29.820 Let's come back

00:33:30.740 to the other point you made,

00:33:31.640 which I think is a very good point,

00:33:33.000 a point not enough people make.

00:33:34.700 And I think I'm really glad

00:33:35.980 that someone like you

00:33:36.920 is able to make it, actually.

00:33:38.780 And I think we live in this,

00:33:40.440 I think it's a tragedy

00:33:41.380 that we live in this world.

00:33:42.460 But the fact that you're

00:33:43.560 a black woman

00:33:44.140 makes it easier for you

00:33:45.000 to say this

00:33:45.520 in the same way

00:33:46.040 that I'm an immigrant

00:33:46.780 makes it easier for you to say it.

00:33:47.560 But it shouldn't.

00:33:48.320 I know.

00:33:49.640 That's part of the problem.

00:33:50.000 That's why I think

00:33:50.600 it's a tragedy.

00:33:51.740 And I'm glad

00:33:52.440 you're speaking up about that.

00:33:53.420 I think it's great

00:33:54.040 that you're doing that

00:33:54.720 and using that ability.

00:33:56.760 But the difficult issue is

00:33:58.520 you're saying

00:33:59.220 we should bring in

00:34:00.140 certain people

00:34:00.760 but not others.

00:34:01.620 So the inevitable question there,

00:34:03.760 as you, I'm sure,

00:34:04.960 appreciate,

00:34:05.600 is who should we not

00:34:06.700 be bringing in?

00:34:08.220 I remember being asked

00:34:09.400 about this

00:34:09.980 on the BBC

00:34:11.120 where

00:34:12.080 the culture there

00:34:14.440 is everything is

00:34:15.100 the same.

00:34:16.340 We shouldn't be

00:34:16.980 bringing people in

00:34:17.880 who are not

00:34:20.040 interested in integrating.

00:34:21.760 And we can see

00:34:22.760 the pattern

00:34:23.280 of where

00:34:24.160 that lack of integration

00:34:25.220 comes from.

00:34:26.140 And we need to pay attention

00:34:27.020 to that.

00:34:27.380 So let's use

00:34:29.260 the grooming gang scandal

00:34:30.580 as an example.

00:34:32.500 There was a report

00:34:33.500 written in the 80s

00:34:34.560 about the group

00:34:35.640 of people

00:34:35.980 who came from

00:34:36.740 a particular region

00:34:38.580 in Pakistan

00:34:39.700 due to the floods

00:34:41.020 we needing

00:34:41.820 workers here

00:34:43.400 way back in the 60s.

00:34:44.800 But even there

00:34:45.840 they were not

00:34:46.280 integrating

00:34:46.740 in the culture there.

00:34:48.420 Very insular

00:34:49.500 backgrounds.

00:34:50.860 And I remember

00:34:51.380 describing them

00:34:52.240 coming from

00:34:52.900 peasant backgrounds,

00:34:54.060 peasant farmers

00:34:54.680 and so on.

00:34:55.480 And no one was

00:34:56.120 listening to

00:34:56.800 the story

00:34:57.660 about the victims

00:34:58.400 that I had talked about

00:34:59.660 it was all about

00:35:00.520 whether I should have

00:35:01.240 used the word

00:35:01.740 peasants or not.

00:35:02.700 This is the kind

00:35:03.260 of fake conversation

00:35:04.020 I think we end up

00:35:04.680 having in our media.

00:35:06.420 We need to look at

00:35:07.360 the pattern

00:35:08.140 of who migrates

00:35:09.220 well

00:35:09.600 or who does well

00:35:10.700 who are the good

00:35:11.600 patterns of migration

00:35:12.860 where did the bad

00:35:13.680 patterns of migration

00:35:14.420 come from.

00:35:15.220 This is one of the

00:35:15.860 pieces of work

00:35:16.460 that I started

00:35:17.060 in government.

00:35:17.980 The first report

00:35:18.580 that came back

00:35:19.140 did not answer

00:35:19.760 the question

00:35:20.280 that I wanted.

00:35:21.280 It was part of

00:35:22.360 that race and ethnic

00:35:23.740 disparities report.

00:35:25.060 We need to look at

00:35:25.900 what makes people

00:35:26.800 successful.

00:35:27.960 And yes it can be

00:35:28.860 things like whether

00:35:29.420 or not they speak

00:35:30.560 English, that's not

00:35:31.620 enough, but it's also

00:35:33.020 about what it is they

00:35:34.180 want to do here,

00:35:35.000 why they want to

00:35:35.660 come here.

00:35:36.300 Are people just

00:35:37.240 creating the same

00:35:38.160 communities that they've

00:35:38.940 come from here?

00:35:39.980 No, we don't want

00:35:41.060 that.

00:35:41.400 But that requires

00:35:42.220 everybody, teachers,

00:35:43.660 neighbours, vicars,

00:35:44.840 to be involved in

00:35:46.080 making sure that

00:35:46.820 people integrate.

00:35:48.100 What we can't do

00:35:48.940 is say, you know,

00:35:50.540 we don't want, you

00:35:52.720 know, this list of

00:35:53.880 people, no we can't

00:35:54.940 do that.

00:35:55.480 But there are

00:35:56.000 countries actually

00:35:56.840 where we can even

00:35:57.720 just look at the

00:35:58.400 reciprocal arrangements

00:35:59.320 and see that these

00:36:00.500 are not places that

00:36:01.500 think and behave like

00:36:02.420 us.

00:36:02.740 They are not places

00:36:03.640 that embrace

00:36:04.440 liberal values.

00:36:05.380 And I think that

00:36:06.360 what we need to do

00:36:07.180 is look at places

00:36:08.460 where the pattern

00:36:09.700 of migration and

00:36:10.800 integration is high.

00:36:12.340 That's a piece of

00:36:13.280 work that needs to be

00:36:14.120 done.

00:36:14.400 But it's very, very

00:36:15.280 obvious, like the

00:36:16.220 example that I gave

00:36:17.140 about grooming gangs,

00:36:18.300 where people that came

00:36:19.060 from that region ended

00:36:20.460 up carrying out these

00:36:21.540 atrocities.

00:36:22.060 And instead they

00:36:22.960 were described as

00:36:23.580 Asian grooming gangs

00:36:25.180 or Pakistani grooming

00:36:26.200 gangs.

00:36:26.900 This is how we hide

00:36:27.920 what's really going on.

00:36:28.820 We've got to do a lot

00:36:29.680 of work to really

00:36:30.940 drill down.

00:36:31.700 And we need to make

00:36:32.580 sure that we have a

00:36:33.640 policy that is

00:36:34.740 different for different

00:36:35.500 places.

00:36:36.240 We used to have that.

00:36:37.440 You know, the rules

00:36:38.220 that you have to follow

00:36:39.560 if you're coming from

00:36:40.520 countries that are

00:36:41.800 very different from

00:36:42.460 the UK are often

00:36:43.440 tougher than what you

00:36:44.420 need if you're right

00:36:45.360 next door in Ireland

00:36:46.160 or France.

00:36:47.320 But let's look at

00:36:48.720 who is coming in.

00:36:50.240 How old are they,

00:36:51.100 for instance, if people

00:36:51.860 are much older,

00:36:53.120 they're obviously

00:36:53.660 going to be less

00:36:54.920 likely to be net

00:36:55.640 contributors.

00:36:56.400 There's a whole raft

00:36:57.180 of things that we can

00:36:57.960 do.

00:36:58.440 But I've said that I'm

00:36:59.800 not announcing policy

00:37:00.840 early because we need

00:37:02.280 to do the work on it.

00:37:03.420 I have strong views

00:37:04.600 about this.

00:37:05.220 We have values and

00:37:06.060 principles.

00:37:06.740 We need to test what

00:37:07.820 works.

00:37:08.220 We need to test what's

00:37:09.060 feasible.

00:37:09.880 What could we do,

00:37:11.020 certainly initially,

00:37:12.080 within the legal

00:37:12.980 framework that we have

00:37:13.860 now?

00:37:14.180 Otherwise, we'll just

00:37:14.800 end up arguing and

00:37:15.960 fighting about things.

00:37:17.080 And when we know what

00:37:17.780 we need to do, sweep

00:37:18.700 away the things that

00:37:19.640 are causing problems.

00:37:20.360 But I'm not going

00:37:21.240 to have a list of

00:37:21.820 here are my favourite

00:37:22.340 countries, and this is

00:37:23.500 where we want mine.

00:37:24.020 But that is what

00:37:24.540 you're saying.

00:37:25.000 You're saying there

00:37:26.020 are countries who are

00:37:27.160 in our neighbourhood.

00:37:27.920 I'm saying we need

00:37:28.820 to have principles

00:37:30.100 and rules that we

00:37:31.180 can apply.

00:37:32.400 And they're

00:37:32.860 differentials depending

00:37:34.300 on where the people

00:37:35.100 are coming from.

00:37:35.780 points-based systems.

00:37:36.420 No, I agree.

00:37:37.020 I understand.

00:37:37.680 But it didn't work.

00:37:38.820 So we need to look at

00:37:39.760 why it didn't work.

00:37:40.800 All I'm trying to do is

00:37:41.980 get what you're saying

00:37:43.500 converted into more

00:37:45.460 accessible language and

00:37:46.760 slightly more precise so

00:37:48.160 that people have clarity

00:37:49.120 about what it is that

00:37:49.900 you're saying.

00:37:50.440 Okay.

00:37:50.660 What I'm reading, and

00:37:51.400 please correct me if I'm

00:37:52.180 wrong.

00:37:52.440 I just want to just

00:37:53.100 translate it.

00:37:54.180 What I'm hearing is you

00:37:55.400 would like to have a

00:37:56.420 system that's based on

00:37:57.720 points, among other

00:37:58.540 things, that

00:37:59.360 differentiates between

00:38:00.520 people who are

00:38:01.460 different ages,

00:38:03.040 different educational

00:38:03.860 backgrounds, different

00:38:05.220 geographical locations.

00:38:06.560 So people coming from

00:38:07.420 certain parts of the

00:38:08.320 world might have a

00:38:09.400 stricter regime applied

00:38:10.380 to them than people who

00:38:11.360 come from France, for

00:38:12.480 example.

00:38:12.680 Is that what you're

00:38:13.180 saying?

00:38:13.980 Is that fair?

00:38:14.680 You can't tell all of

00:38:16.060 those things at the

00:38:17.020 border.

00:38:17.700 Sometimes it's after

00:38:18.580 people arrived that you

00:38:19.840 do that.

00:38:20.280 That's why I'm talking

00:38:21.120 about how a society

00:38:22.860 integrates and

00:38:23.820 assimilates.

00:38:24.460 And you can't stop

00:38:25.960 every single person.

00:38:27.340 But if you can focus on

00:38:28.820 the majority, the problem

00:38:30.360 will get solved.

00:38:31.260 That's how migration

00:38:32.640 used to work.

00:38:33.520 And we need to look

00:38:34.800 at why it was that

00:38:36.440 years ago people would

00:38:37.900 assimilate into the

00:38:38.940 country well.

00:38:39.780 What has changed?

00:38:41.140 Do that work and then

00:38:42.360 figure it out.

00:38:43.420 That's what I'm saying.

00:38:44.440 It's not about picking

00:38:45.960 groups of people because

00:38:47.080 that just ruins the

00:38:48.040 conversation.

00:38:48.980 And what I'm trying to

00:38:49.740 do, in the same way that

00:38:50.780 you said that because I'm

00:38:52.780 black I'm able to talk

00:38:53.620 about things, I don't

00:38:54.380 think it should be that

00:38:55.180 way.

00:38:55.580 I'm trying to create the

00:38:56.840 space so that we can have

00:38:58.060 a civilised and decent

00:38:59.540 conversation.

00:39:00.500 I'm trying.

00:39:00.900 Let's heat more light.

00:39:01.620 I'm trying.

00:39:02.080 Yes, but I don't mean I

00:39:02.800 don't mean I don't mean I

00:39:03.780 don't mean I'm trying.

00:39:04.360 But the problem is you're

00:39:05.020 not answering my question.

00:39:06.200 Right.

00:39:06.400 I have answered the

00:39:06.960 question.

00:39:07.060 No, you haven't.

00:39:07.600 What's the question that

00:39:08.480 is not answered?

00:39:09.200 The question that's not

00:39:09.900 answered is, is this

00:39:10.980 points based system that

00:39:12.240 you're suggesting is a

00:39:13.240 system that effectively

00:39:14.280 adopts the mantra that

00:39:16.480 you gave us early in the

00:39:17.620 interview, which is the

00:39:18.900 idea that all cultures are

00:39:19.920 the same, that all people

00:39:20.880 everywhere have the same

00:39:21.860 views and beliefs?

00:39:22.540 No, no, no, no, no,

00:39:22.920 culture matters more.

00:39:24.080 That's what I said.

00:39:24.620 OK.

00:39:24.920 Culture matters more.

00:39:25.520 That's what I'm saying.

00:39:26.420 So if you think that

00:39:28.020 there are certain parts

00:39:28.940 of the world we should

00:39:29.680 apply different criteria

00:39:30.900 to, is that part of

00:39:32.480 Because, but that's the

00:39:33.520 reason why I said that if

00:39:35.160 you look at the region

00:39:36.140 within, if you had had a

00:39:37.780 blanket Pakistani, you

00:39:39.600 know, veto, you'd miss out

00:39:42.780 on loads of people who are

00:39:43.700 doing great things in the

00:39:45.280 country who've come here.

00:39:47.080 It's about looking deeper

00:39:48.900 than that.

00:39:49.380 These things are not just

00:39:50.600 at national level.

00:39:51.860 I think that the work

00:39:54.020 needs to be done for us

00:39:55.080 to have a policy on that.

00:39:56.680 And we don't want people

00:39:58.280 who think child marriage

00:39:59.480 is OK.

00:40:00.260 We don't want people who

00:40:01.640 think we should have

00:40:02.280 blasphemy laws.

00:40:03.300 We don't want people who

00:40:04.760 think that gays or women

00:40:06.140 are not equal human beings

00:40:07.380 and should be stoned to

00:40:08.260 death.

00:40:08.560 But you can't test for that

00:40:10.240 at the border.

00:40:11.160 So what are you going to

00:40:11.760 do?

00:40:12.180 This is what I'm saying.

00:40:13.340 You can have society

00:40:14.600 enforce it.

00:40:15.320 But the reason why you're

00:40:16.260 asking me what are you

00:40:16.900 going to do is because you

00:40:18.240 believe that government

00:40:19.360 should do everything.

00:40:20.200 No.

00:40:20.440 But this is the thing.

00:40:22.340 That's not what I'm

00:40:22.840 saying.

00:40:22.980 But that's what I'm

00:40:23.820 saying.

00:40:24.200 Government can't do

00:40:25.520 everything.

00:40:26.520 We need other people to

00:40:27.700 get involved.

00:40:28.660 We need society to do

00:40:30.080 this.

00:40:30.400 That's what used to

00:40:31.200 happen before.

00:40:31.820 I agree with you.

00:40:32.280 If you say that the

00:40:33.540 government needs to fix

00:40:34.340 everything.

00:40:35.020 That's not what I'm

00:40:35.460 saying.

00:40:35.760 You start to get people

00:40:36.380 but that's what I'm

00:40:38.000 inferring from what you're

00:40:38.820 saying.

00:40:39.160 No.

00:40:39.460 You're wrong about that.

00:40:40.300 Let's just talk.

00:40:41.260 But you start to get

00:40:42.060 people feel that it's got

00:40:43.320 nothing to do with me.

00:40:44.440 This is for the

00:40:44.880 government.

00:40:45.000 That's not what I'm

00:40:45.540 saying.

00:40:45.800 Well you said what are you

00:40:46.600 going to do?

00:40:47.480 Listen.

00:40:50.440 Chaos comes in all

00:40:51.620 shapes and sizes.

00:40:53.020 Last week a guest showed

00:40:54.300 up late because they

00:40:55.280 couldn't find the studio

00:40:56.480 and we had to juggle

00:40:57.620 schedules on the fly.

00:40:59.220 Talk about stress.

00:41:00.640 But here's the thing.

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00:42:18.820 Your point about

00:42:19.740 integration is well taken.

00:42:22.240 We have to integrate

00:42:23.780 people and encourage

00:42:24.800 people to become part of

00:42:26.440 this society.

00:42:27.220 I am one of the people in

00:42:28.720 this country who is

00:42:29.180 banging the drum for that

00:42:30.140 as much as you are.

00:42:30.980 I think that's fair to

00:42:31.900 say.

00:42:32.560 What I'm asking you is

00:42:34.040 about immigration policy

00:42:35.220 and that is the job of

00:42:36.340 government.

00:42:37.100 And what people in this

00:42:38.080 country who are watching

00:42:38.840 this interview would like

00:42:39.780 to know, I know that

00:42:41.140 you've got time before the

00:42:42.320 next election.

00:42:42.900 You're trying to work out

00:42:43.660 detailed proposals.

00:42:44.420 I really respect that.

00:42:45.980 But I'd like to know, and

00:42:47.240 I think they would too, the

00:42:48.600 direction of travel.

00:42:50.060 Are you going to attempt

00:42:52.140 to implement a policy that

00:42:53.600 looks at different places

00:42:54.900 and says, well, we want

00:42:55.820 more people of this kind

00:42:56.880 and fewer people of this

00:42:57.880 kind and we want to make

00:42:58.660 sure that they're not like

00:42:59.460 this but they're like that?

00:43:00.240 That's what a skills-based

00:43:01.200 system is.

00:43:02.060 So why wouldn't you just

00:43:02.840 say that?

00:43:03.200 I did.

00:43:03.940 I said we had a points-based

00:43:05.660 system but it didn't work.

00:43:07.580 So we've got to look at

00:43:08.640 why it didn't work.

00:43:10.120 We've got to look at why

00:43:11.000 it didn't work.

00:43:11.480 It's not just about saying,

00:43:12.620 well, this is what I'd like

00:43:13.260 to see and so on.

00:43:14.520 We need to do that work.

00:43:16.000 That's what the Conservative

00:43:16.900 Party is doing now.

00:43:18.040 But I've told you the

00:43:19.040 direction of travel.

00:43:20.220 Immigration is too high.

00:43:21.880 We need a hard cap.

00:43:23.320 Indefinite leave to remain

00:43:24.460 needs to be sorted.

00:43:26.220 Numbers matter.

00:43:27.280 Culture matters more.

00:43:28.500 We need all of society to

00:43:29.960 integrate.

00:43:30.760 That's what I'm talking about.

00:43:32.140 But if you want me to say

00:43:33.440 exactly what the border

00:43:34.540 patrol person is going to do

00:43:35.880 when someone rocks up and

00:43:37.700 which form it is, we're not

00:43:39.040 there yet.

00:43:39.540 And we're not going to be

00:43:40.600 there for a long time

00:43:41.580 because we need to fix

00:43:42.900 problems now.

00:43:44.060 We need to do the detailed

00:43:45.340 work.

00:43:45.880 We need to have an argument.

00:43:47.580 We don't talk about these

00:43:48.820 things.

00:43:49.080 You know when I say creating

00:43:50.100 the space for us to have

00:43:51.600 this conversation?

00:43:52.400 We don't talk about things

00:43:53.520 at this level.

00:43:54.720 We just, you know, well,

00:43:56.200 what's the number?

00:43:57.200 It's because I get that

00:43:58.320 question a lot.

00:43:59.140 Well, what's the number?

00:43:59.700 What's the right number?

00:44:00.300 You can't give a number.

00:44:01.240 We gave a number.

00:44:02.600 Tens of thousands.

00:44:03.480 We gave another number.

00:44:04.420 Hundreds of thousands.

00:44:05.100 Giving a number is not

00:44:06.560 solving the problem.

00:44:07.800 It is yet another

00:44:08.620 announcement, not a policy

00:44:10.180 or a plan.

00:44:10.900 And the party is under new

00:44:12.060 leadership.

00:44:12.620 I am doing things

00:44:13.320 differently.

00:44:14.140 It means that sometimes

00:44:15.160 people won't hear exactly

00:44:16.680 what they like.

00:44:17.440 It means the truth has to be

00:44:19.080 said, even when it's

00:44:20.020 difficult, that we've got a

00:44:21.120 global problem here.

00:44:22.420 UK's got to look after its

00:44:23.460 national interests.

00:44:24.320 That's what I'm about.

00:44:25.540 Looking after our national

00:44:26.580 interests first.

00:44:27.720 Not, as we see with Labour,

00:44:29.300 the international law

00:44:30.320 regime.

00:44:31.060 That's why they're giving

00:44:31.840 away the Chagos Islands.

00:44:33.900 That's why they didn't like

00:44:35.760 Brexit.

00:44:36.620 And there's still, for

00:44:37.920 instance, opportunities from

00:44:39.360 leaving the European Union

00:44:40.440 that we haven't taken.

00:44:41.780 This work needs to be done.

00:44:43.180 We've got to start looking at

00:44:44.360 the future and not just having

00:44:45.960 the same conversations.

00:44:47.760 Kemi, there's one element of

00:44:49.940 this you've touched on, which

00:44:51.860 is you talk about making the

00:44:54.060 space to make these

00:44:54.800 conversations acceptable, and

00:44:56.180 I agree with you.

00:44:57.440 Also, I think, why do you need

00:44:59.420 to do that?

00:45:00.740 When is it that every

00:45:02.700 politician of all ilk, of

00:45:05.120 practically either side, apart

00:45:06.620 from a select few, lost their

00:45:08.660 spines?

00:45:09.580 The whole purpose of

00:45:11.020 politicians was to be able to

00:45:13.200 have uncomfortable decisions

00:45:14.600 and make unpopular,

00:45:16.620 uncomfortable conversations

00:45:18.240 and make unpopular decisions.

00:45:20.360 You don't get to lead and be

00:45:22.820 liked universally.

00:45:24.660 It's ridiculous, isn't it?

00:45:26.680 It is.

00:45:27.180 And I completely agree with you.

00:45:28.760 You're preaching to the choir

00:45:29.880 here.

00:45:30.660 But why, I think the question,

00:45:32.160 the interesting question you

00:45:33.280 asked is, why did people lose

00:45:36.240 their spine?

00:45:37.660 And that, I think, is really at

00:45:39.600 the heart of what's going on.

00:45:41.960 When, in an easier age, before

00:45:44.640 parliament was televised and you

00:45:46.680 just heard it on the radio, people

00:45:48.140 didn't recognize you in the

00:45:49.240 street.

00:45:49.540 You know, the prime minister would

00:45:50.300 walk the street.

00:45:50.780 People didn't know what he looked

00:45:52.080 like.

00:45:52.340 It was a lot easier to say what

00:45:53.860 you thought.

00:45:54.820 Now, we have an extreme version of

00:45:56.960 that, where every single thing you

00:45:58.160 say almost every minute is put

00:46:00.140 out there, and the aggro, you

00:46:03.560 know, speak colloquially, comes

00:46:05.900 immediately and quickly, and it's

00:46:07.700 very difficult.

00:46:08.640 A lot of people can't deal with

00:46:10.460 that.

00:46:11.140 And so the next natural question

00:46:12.380 is, well, if they can't do it,

00:46:13.640 they shouldn't be in politics.

00:46:15.500 But people vote for, and I've seen

00:46:18.200 this happen at local level, they

00:46:19.720 vote for the nice person who says

00:46:22.220 the things that they want to hear

00:46:23.440 rather than the person who's going

00:46:25.500 to tell hard truths.

00:46:26.360 So what I'm doing right now is the

00:46:29.220 difficult path to getting, you

00:46:33.420 know, to getting us back to, you

00:46:35.180 know, higher polling numbers, more

00:46:36.840 credibility with the public,

00:46:37.960 rebuilding trust.

00:46:39.040 Telling the truth is not the way to

00:46:41.000 be, you know, to be elected.

00:46:43.120 It's often telling people what they

00:46:44.860 want to hear.

00:46:45.640 But I love that Thomas Sowell quote,

00:46:48.140 that if you want to help people, you

00:46:50.220 tell them the truth.

00:46:50.960 And if you want to help yourself, you

00:46:52.500 tell them what they want to hear.

00:46:53.420 The average person who gets elected

00:46:55.440 now is often someone, maybe, you

00:46:58.160 know, they've done some nice work in

00:46:59.340 the community.

00:46:59.980 They're not thinking about national

00:47:01.440 security.

00:47:02.060 They're not thinking about how we deal

00:47:03.620 with Russia and Iran or China.

00:47:05.300 They're not thinking about food

00:47:06.640 security.

00:47:07.220 They're thinking about potholes and,

00:47:09.720 you know, how do we fix the church?

00:47:10.860 Or if you look at, you know, you

00:47:12.060 listen to the questions that people

00:47:13.980 ask in parliament.

00:47:15.280 You know, will people celebrate, you

00:47:17.900 know, the people who ran a marathon in

00:47:19.220 my constituency and so on.

00:47:20.480 It's sort of like a little local

00:47:22.640 champion.

00:47:23.560 And that sort of thing does not

00:47:26.480 create brave politicians.

00:47:27.700 So we need space for some of that

00:47:30.660 bravery, that when people say

00:47:31.720 difficult things, they're not all

00:47:33.420 ripped down.

00:47:34.020 And when people agree with them,

00:47:35.580 they get some support.

00:47:36.820 And other people just see the things

00:47:38.680 that happen to people like David

00:47:39.900 Amos or people like Joe Cox and

00:47:42.100 think, this is too much.

00:47:43.620 I don't want any part of it.

00:47:45.000 This is what happens when you are,

00:47:47.640 as David Amos was, very pro-Israel,

00:47:49.660 for example.

00:47:50.160 Or in the case of Joe Cox, the

00:47:52.580 person who went after her, you know,

00:47:54.680 was, I don't know, I think whether

00:47:56.400 he was mentally ill or on the far

00:47:57.840 right, people think, well, maybe I

00:47:59.140 shouldn't say anything that's too

00:48:00.520 tricky.

00:48:01.220 This is wrong.

00:48:02.680 We need to be in a place where people

00:48:05.820 can speak and know that something

00:48:08.460 horrible isn't going to happen.

00:48:10.100 And even when you see these things

00:48:12.840 occur, the politicians generally will

00:48:15.860 talk about, well, social media rather

00:48:18.060 than Islamism, it's because people are

00:48:20.160 afraid.

00:48:20.920 They're afraid.

00:48:21.860 So we've got to find brave people.

00:48:24.120 And once people know the risks, they

00:48:26.340 often become afraid even when they

00:48:28.520 were brave.

00:48:28.960 So those of us who are prepared to

00:48:30.280 speak about what needs to be done

00:48:32.260 become fewer and fewer.

00:48:34.360 And I want us to stop this cycle.

00:48:35.920 I want to recruit brave people who

00:48:38.420 understand how the world works, how the

00:48:40.680 system which used to work for us 30

00:48:42.300 years ago doesn't work now.

00:48:43.600 How do we change it?

00:48:44.840 Those are the people that I'm asking

00:48:46.360 to join the Conservative Party, because

00:48:48.300 we are a party that knows not just

00:48:51.420 what's wrong, but also how to solve

00:48:52.980 them.

00:48:54.300 So in that spirit, uncomfortable

00:48:56.220 truths, what's happening with this

00:48:58.400 country?

00:48:58.980 Because the average person looks

00:49:00.880 around, they may not be political,

00:49:02.840 they may not be tapped into what's

00:49:04.180 going on, but every single person who

00:49:06.300 I talk to, who wants to talk to me,

00:49:07.800 wants to have a conversation, is

00:49:09.360 going to meet what's going on.

00:49:11.320 Things are going wrong here.

00:49:12.900 And they may not be able to put their

00:49:14.460 finger on it, but they know.

00:49:15.560 So what is going on?

00:49:17.920 We are living in an era of managed

00:49:21.600 decline.

00:49:23.040 And this is what I said to Keir

00:49:24.800 Starmer today.

00:49:26.120 It was quite interesting.

00:49:27.320 We had PMQs today.

00:49:28.560 And every time I've got PMQs, this is

00:49:30.520 going to be a long answer, every time

00:49:31.540 I've got PMQs, I get about 50 people

00:49:33.420 saying you should ask this thing.

00:49:34.500 This is the killer question.

00:49:36.460 And almost all of them will not be

00:49:38.400 killer questions.

00:49:39.020 People said, you know, ask a question

00:49:41.000 about his voice code, ask questions

00:49:44.020 about Cheir Gossi, you try and put those

00:49:45.520 things together.

00:49:46.420 But the thing that I was asking about

00:49:48.180 is the thing that really terrifies me,

00:49:51.160 that we keep making laws and decisions

00:49:53.520 that are de-industrialising the UK,

00:49:55.940 that are taking away capacity,

00:49:57.760 institutional memory, how to build,

00:50:00.000 the memories and the, you know,

00:50:01.620 the learnings that we've had for

00:50:03.100 generations, and we're making

00:50:04.620 ourselves poorer.

00:50:05.440 So today, you know, I talked about how

00:50:09.380 these oil and gas fields, which we had

00:50:11.560 approved in government, should go ahead.

00:50:14.960 There's a court case with Extinction Rebellion

00:50:17.740 and all these people have fought, and the

00:50:19.060 judges said, oh, it was unlawful for them

00:50:20.980 to have a licence.

00:50:21.720 Of course it's not unlawful.

00:50:23.140 But you have to fight these things.

00:50:24.980 And we've just got into a system where,

00:50:26.900 well, we can't do anything.

00:50:27.980 The courts have said this, the courts have

00:50:29.300 said that.

00:50:29.820 The government needs to fight it.

00:50:31.580 And when it doesn't, things disappear.

00:50:33.700 Businesses are leaving the North Sea

00:50:35.700 oil and gas sector.

00:50:36.660 We are losing money.

00:50:37.960 Jobs will disappear.

00:50:38.860 We'll see more poverty in Scotland

00:50:41.020 if these things don't happen.

00:50:42.580 That's what worries me.

00:50:43.620 And yes, we can talk about some of the,

00:50:45.420 you know, Westminster bubble issues.

00:50:47.220 But not having a job, not being able

00:50:50.020 to feed your kids, not having a house,

00:50:52.020 not being able to heat your home,

00:50:54.120 that's what really terrifies me.

00:50:55.860 And that's where the managed decline

00:50:57.260 comes from.

00:50:58.660 If you don't have a government that has

00:51:00.120 a vision of the future that is hopeful

00:51:01.720 and optimistic, that can't

00:51:03.240 fight even the tiniest thing.

00:51:05.800 I mean, I'll give you an example.

00:51:07.200 There was a band called Kneecap,

00:51:09.000 which we were giving music grants to.

00:51:11.580 Don't ask why the music grants

00:51:13.580 were a scheme.

00:51:15.400 But I became business secretary

00:51:16.720 and this was something that we were doing.

00:51:18.100 And I thought, fine, we give money

00:51:19.680 to, you know, struggling artists.

00:51:21.380 And then I found out that one of the

00:51:23.380 bands was a very anti-British,

00:51:26.700 you know, promoting violence band.

00:51:29.380 It was sort of pro-IRA,

00:51:30.840 just really, really violent stuff.

00:51:32.680 And I thought, well, OK, that's fine.

00:51:33.780 I believe in free speech.

00:51:35.420 But free speech doesn't mean

00:51:36.460 we need to pay for it.

00:51:37.400 Why is the government paying for this?

00:51:38.600 You know, let's go pay for,

00:51:39.440 you know, something nice.

00:51:41.020 And I cancelled their grant.

00:51:42.980 They took me to court

00:51:45.080 and the election happened.

00:51:47.280 What happens when Labour comes in?

00:51:48.940 They don't fight the case.

00:51:50.280 They just let it through.

00:51:51.280 We don't want to fight this.

00:51:52.580 So when you won't fight

00:51:53.520 a little thing like that,

00:51:54.740 where you're sticking up for Britain,

00:51:56.120 you're not wasting taxpayers' money,

00:51:58.340 you're defending, you know,

00:52:00.200 violence against people.

00:52:02.600 If you can't fight that little thing,

00:52:04.020 how are you going to fight a Rose Bank?

00:52:05.340 And this is what I mean,

00:52:06.120 that Labour can't negotiate.

00:52:07.660 Whether it's on reparations

00:52:09.020 in the Commonwealth,

00:52:10.280 whether it's on the Chagos Islands,

00:52:12.000 they lost this AstraZeneca investment,

00:52:13.940 £450 million.

00:52:15.400 We negotiated that.

00:52:16.760 We got a great deal.

00:52:17.940 They've lost it.

00:52:18.760 They just keep messing everything up.

00:52:20.220 And that's what we're going to have

00:52:21.500 over the next four or five years.

00:52:22.960 It's managed decline.

00:52:23.860 And we have to stop it.

00:52:25.420 So what you're really saying

00:52:27.040 with the managed decline

00:52:27.840 is that this is ideological.

00:52:30.400 I think,

00:52:31.820 I don't know whether ideological

00:52:32.980 is the right word.

00:52:34.420 I don't know whether ideological

00:52:35.100 is the right word.

00:52:35.820 It's a mindset problem.

00:52:37.700 It's a mindset problem.

00:52:39.200 It's,

00:52:39.800 there are some people

00:52:41.180 who believe that the UK

00:52:42.980 is always going to be amazing.

00:52:45.160 And so we can give loads of money

00:52:47.120 to foreign countries

00:52:48.200 and we can get lots of people

00:52:49.840 and we're so rich.

00:52:50.640 Everybody come in,

00:52:51.480 come and enjoy,

00:52:52.400 come and enjoy the wealth.

00:52:53.160 It's a mindset

00:52:53.880 that is complacent.

00:52:55.460 I've lived somewhere

00:52:56.520 that's had these policies

00:52:58.700 in the extreme

00:52:59.480 and it was terrible.

00:53:01.120 So I can see

00:53:02.260 where this sort of behavior

00:53:03.780 takes you.

00:53:04.820 You look at the history

00:53:05.980 of a lot of countries

00:53:07.060 that went down the tubes.

00:53:08.600 Argentina is now

00:53:09.300 getting fixed by Malay.

00:53:10.780 They did a lot of nonsense

00:53:11.720 with public spending.

00:53:12.980 You just spend money.

00:53:14.100 You borrow endlessly.

00:53:15.340 You go bankrupt.

00:53:16.560 You don't create

00:53:17.640 freedom for enterprise

00:53:19.020 because growth

00:53:20.020 and prosperity

00:53:21.040 doesn't come from government.

00:53:23.260 It comes from business.

00:53:24.800 You crush business,

00:53:26.280 tax, tax, tax,

00:53:27.320 all sorts of nonsense regulations

00:53:29.040 where they can't do

00:53:29.840 anything normal

00:53:30.500 without getting a call

00:53:31.480 from the council

00:53:32.360 and you kill

00:53:33.400 what makes the country great.

00:53:34.780 And that's what I want to stop.

00:53:36.560 Labour does not

00:53:37.660 get that at all.

00:53:39.020 And instead,

00:53:39.940 what we see with them

00:53:40.800 where it does become

00:53:41.560 ideological

00:53:42.300 is the politics of envy.

00:53:44.020 These people are socialists.

00:53:45.420 It's socialism.

00:53:46.540 Why are they putting VAT

00:53:47.580 on private schools?

00:53:48.480 Yeah, it doesn't affect

00:53:49.300 lots of people.

00:53:50.600 But most people

00:53:51.680 who go to private school

00:53:52.960 aren't that wealthy.

00:53:54.140 You know,

00:53:54.380 I knew of a hairdresser

00:53:55.260 who took her kid out

00:53:56.100 because the 20%

00:53:57.080 was just that bit too much.

00:53:59.280 And then they're changing

00:54:00.200 what's happening

00:54:00.780 with education,

00:54:01.680 removing the freedom

00:54:02.400 for schools

00:54:03.060 to, you know,

00:54:04.160 set their own curriculum,

00:54:05.400 hire the best teachers.

00:54:06.840 It's because

00:54:07.420 they don't want the people

00:54:08.540 who know how to get

00:54:09.520 stuff working doing things.

00:54:10.840 They're listening

00:54:11.400 to the unions.

00:54:12.540 The unions are writing laws.

00:54:14.260 They're writing education bills.

00:54:15.380 They're writing

00:54:16.140 the employment bills.

00:54:17.000 That's where the ideology

00:54:17.880 comes from.

00:54:18.780 And who are they punishing?

00:54:20.220 People who don't vote for them.

00:54:21.640 They're punishing farmers.

00:54:22.960 They're punishing pensioners.

00:54:24.240 They're punishing

00:54:24.860 small businesses,

00:54:25.880 family businesses,

00:54:26.680 because they're not

00:54:27.780 traditional Labour voters.

00:54:29.240 That's where you see

00:54:30.120 the ideology

00:54:30.760 in terms of

00:54:31.380 who they're picking on.

00:54:32.600 But the rest of it

00:54:33.500 is just complacency,

00:54:34.840 this legal,

00:54:35.780 bureaucratic mindset

00:54:36.660 that creates no growth.

00:54:38.300 And when I say ideological,

00:54:40.280 I'm also thinking as well,

00:54:41.520 how much of it

00:54:42.200 is them thinking

00:54:43.080 to themselves

00:54:43.700 and putting forward

00:54:44.840 the idea

00:54:45.420 that the UK

00:54:46.160 is evil.

00:54:47.500 We are a country

00:54:48.700 which has profited

00:54:49.920 from empire.

00:54:52.060 We have made trillions.

00:54:54.260 Therefore,

00:54:54.860 we owe

00:54:55.580 to give,

00:54:56.600 for example,

00:54:57.120 the Chagos Islands back,

00:54:58.460 et cetera, et cetera.

00:54:59.760 This white guilt

00:55:01.000 that a lot of white

00:55:02.000 middle class people carry.

00:55:04.180 That's definitely there.

00:55:05.660 But it's not just

00:55:06.440 white guilt.

00:55:07.440 It's guilt

00:55:08.680 and foolishness

00:55:09.980 and just socialism.

00:55:13.460 It's just

00:55:13.780 the new evolution.

00:55:15.760 You can smuggle

00:55:16.580 socialism in

00:55:17.600 if you get it

00:55:18.480 to wear the clothes

00:55:19.260 of something

00:55:19.860 that looks nice.

00:55:21.060 A lot of socialism

00:55:21.860 now is,

00:55:23.220 you know,

00:55:23.680 a lot of the extreme stuff

00:55:25.260 that went on

00:55:25.980 diversity and inclusion,

00:55:27.800 for example,

00:55:28.620 is socialism

00:55:29.120 through the back door.

00:55:30.300 Net zero,

00:55:30.940 deindustrialization,

00:55:32.200 the government

00:55:32.600 buying all the railways

00:55:34.000 and so on.

00:55:34.380 It's socialism

00:55:35.600 coming back.

00:55:36.920 But what you're talking

00:55:37.740 about in particular

00:55:38.680 is it's just

00:55:40.780 a very peculiar thing

00:55:42.200 to certain

00:55:43.000 Western Anglophone countries.

00:55:45.600 Most countries

00:55:46.360 aren't like this,

00:55:47.020 this sort of self-loathing

00:55:48.140 of we're so terrible.

00:55:49.560 Most countries

00:55:50.180 are chest-beating

00:55:51.260 even when

00:55:52.360 they're terrible countries.

00:55:53.760 You meet people

00:55:54.500 from there

00:55:54.860 and they say

00:55:55.200 we're the best people

00:55:56.200 in the world.

00:55:56.640 We're fantastic.

00:55:57.480 There's something

00:55:58.120 particularly interesting

00:55:59.300 about the British mindset

00:56:01.120 that it's susceptible

00:56:02.120 to this

00:56:03.140 in some quarters.

00:56:04.500 I think George Orwell

00:56:05.380 wrote about

00:56:06.220 the left-wing intellectual

00:56:07.580 would rather steal

00:56:08.820 from a port box

00:56:09.720 than sing

00:56:10.100 God Save the King.

00:56:10.960 There's something there

00:56:12.000 and it does manifest itself

00:56:13.680 not just in the Labour Party

00:56:15.420 but in the Liberal Democrats.

00:56:17.260 And this is

00:56:17.620 to the point

00:56:18.300 that Conservative MP

00:56:19.360 was talking about

00:56:21.680 the one who said

00:56:23.420 it's not reform,

00:56:24.380 it's Lib Dems.

00:56:25.160 I can understand

00:56:25.980 sometimes

00:56:26.520 why some of my colleagues

00:56:27.840 talk about the Lib Dems

00:56:28.820 in that way

00:56:29.160 because there's 70

00:56:30.260 Liberal Democrats

00:56:31.420 in Parliament.

00:56:32.560 They're 14 times

00:56:33.740 as many Liberal Democrats

00:56:35.380 than reform MPs.

00:56:36.660 There are even more MPs

00:56:38.700 from the Independent Alliance

00:56:40.160 which won

00:56:40.860 on a sectarian

00:56:42.620 sort of platform.

00:56:44.180 There are more of them

00:56:44.900 than there are

00:56:45.560 on reform.

00:56:46.340 When you look at the numbers

00:56:47.440 of who is making decisions

00:56:48.960 in this country,

00:56:50.340 we now have

00:56:51.580 the most

00:56:52.460 left-wing parliament

00:56:53.800 we have ever had.

00:56:55.300 It's not just

00:56:56.320 the 400 plus Labour MPs.

00:56:58.100 So 70 Lib Dems,

00:57:00.180 SNP,

00:57:01.280 Independent Alliance

00:57:02.200 and a few others,

00:57:03.060 the Greens.

00:57:04.440 It's, you know,

00:57:05.780 it's awful in there

00:57:06.740 and we're the ones

00:57:07.960 doing the bulk of the work.

00:57:09.260 You know,

00:57:09.500 it's all very well,

00:57:10.500 you know,

00:57:10.700 popping up here and there

00:57:11.520 and sending tweets

00:57:12.240 but the work

00:57:13.140 that's going to save

00:57:13.900 this country

00:57:14.440 is hard graft

00:57:16.060 on legislation

00:57:16.900 sitting in committees

00:57:18.400 going line by line

00:57:19.960 through all of the nonsense

00:57:21.280 that Labour is doing.

00:57:22.080 There's only one party

00:57:23.400 that's doing that

00:57:24.060 and that's the Conservative Party.

00:57:25.720 You mentioned net zero.

00:57:27.560 Is that compatible

00:57:28.440 with prosperity?

00:57:30.320 It depends on what you do

00:57:31.580 with net zero.

00:57:32.680 So I think that

00:57:33.980 we need to make sure

00:57:35.700 that we leave

00:57:36.780 a great environment

00:57:38.280 for our kids.

00:57:39.060 I don't want my kids

00:57:39.920 living, you know,

00:57:41.040 in a smog fest,

00:57:42.340 you know,

00:57:42.720 polluted country or city.

00:57:45.320 So things like biodiversity,

00:57:47.080 for example,

00:57:47.800 I think that's stuff

00:57:48.500 we should do

00:57:48.900 but let's do it with farmers

00:57:49.940 not just impose

00:57:51.460 weird and random stuff

00:57:52.760 on them.

00:57:53.660 Net zero,

00:57:54.360 I think,

00:57:55.100 could be solved

00:57:55.860 by, you know,

00:57:57.680 technological innovation.

00:57:59.200 Let's see what we can do

00:58:00.000 with that.

00:58:00.700 But why 2050?

00:58:02.220 Why not 2051?

00:58:03.640 Why not 2049?

00:58:04.840 It's an arbitrary date.

00:58:06.200 So we need to look

00:58:07.020 at what's working

00:58:07.920 in my view

00:58:08.780 and we need to do it

00:58:10.640 on a no regrets basis.

00:58:13.320 So what I mean by that

00:58:14.800 is that

00:58:15.240 we don't know for sure

00:58:16.700 that if we get to net zero

00:58:18.120 all of the problems

00:58:19.120 with climate change

00:58:20.160 which are real

00:58:20.820 will be solved.

00:58:22.500 So I'm not a climate change

00:58:23.620 sceptic.

00:58:24.400 I'm a net zero sceptic.

00:58:26.380 And if we can't fix it

00:58:28.680 by getting to net zero,

00:58:30.000 what else have we got?

00:58:31.280 Have we moved to,

00:58:32.720 you know,

00:58:33.700 renewable fuels?

00:58:34.620 Because one day,

00:58:35.540 someday,

00:58:35.980 the oil will run out.

00:58:37.220 Maybe it's 500 years time.

00:58:39.120 But have we moved enough

00:58:40.720 to be able to sustain ourselves?

00:58:42.360 What have we done

00:58:42.900 for the future?

00:58:44.320 Have we created

00:58:45.200 better cities,

00:58:46.300 you know,

00:58:46.500 cleaned up a lot

00:58:47.500 of the crappy places

00:58:48.360 that are not nice

00:58:49.100 to live in?

00:58:49.820 Have we fixed air pollution?

00:58:51.260 Let's do other things

00:58:52.480 as well.

00:58:53.320 But what we have now

00:58:54.740 is this zealotry

00:58:55.880 where it sounds like

00:58:57.300 it's absolute zero

00:58:58.380 and people want to take us

00:58:59.560 to the Stone Age.

00:59:00.680 I mean,

00:59:00.860 that's just,

00:59:01.680 that's terrible.

00:59:03.440 And this stuff

00:59:04.760 about being world leading,

00:59:06.780 I find a bit disingenuous

00:59:08.320 because you're not going

00:59:09.360 to be world leading

00:59:10.020 if you bankrupt yourself

00:59:11.400 trying to get to net zero.

00:59:12.940 Nobody is going to follow us

00:59:14.360 into poverty.

00:59:14.940 So whatever net zero plans

00:59:16.540 we do have,

00:59:17.420 have to make sure

00:59:18.320 that we become more prosperous.

00:59:20.440 No one around the world

00:59:21.680 is going to copy us

00:59:22.680 into how to become poorer,

00:59:24.600 even if it is reducing emissions.

00:59:26.320 That is something

00:59:26.940 I'm very sure about.

00:59:28.100 And you can look at

00:59:28.660 what's happening in India

00:59:29.600 or in China

00:59:30.500 where they're opening

00:59:31.320 a coal-fired power station

00:59:32.540 every five minutes

00:59:33.340 and we're outsourcing

00:59:34.660 our stuff there.

00:59:35.660 We are de-industrializing.

00:59:37.160 And this is terrible.

00:59:38.200 Where are we going to,

00:59:39.220 what are we building

00:59:39.900 for the future?

00:59:41.080 What are young people

00:59:41.720 going to have?

00:59:42.220 So it's not compatible

00:59:44.000 with prosperity then.

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01:01:10.780 It's not compatible

01:01:11.780 with prosperity then.

01:01:13.280 It's how you do it.

01:01:14.420 It's how you do it.

01:01:15.360 But net zero

01:01:15.980 is just a phrase.

01:01:17.480 It's what is the plan

01:01:18.520 behind it.

01:01:19.080 Well, net zero

01:01:19.700 is not a phrase.

01:01:20.720 It's an agenda

01:01:21.340 to reduce our carbon emissions

01:01:23.200 to net zero.

01:01:24.820 Well, yeah,

01:01:25.140 well, that's what I...

01:01:25.840 And the only way

01:01:26.260 to do that

01:01:26.980 is to do what we're doing,

01:01:28.640 which is shipping

01:01:29.360 our industry

01:01:30.300 to other countries.

01:01:30.860 Well, I don't...

01:01:31.840 Well, this is the thing.

01:01:32.480 I don't think it's the only way...

01:01:33.640 I don't think it's the only way

01:01:34.460 to do that.

01:01:35.820 Is it the only way

01:01:36.560 to do that by 2050?

01:01:37.960 Maybe.

01:01:38.480 That's why I say

01:01:39.160 why the date?

01:01:40.620 Where are we trying to get to?

01:01:41.680 Do we know that it'll definitely

01:01:42.620 solve those problems?

01:01:43.780 But we've got to look

01:01:44.620 at everything in the round.

01:01:45.960 But if we just talk about

01:01:47.580 net zero, the phrase,

01:01:49.500 then there are a lot of people

01:01:50.280 who don't know the arguments

01:01:51.700 that you and I are discussing,

01:01:52.780 who just hear

01:01:53.360 climate change skeptic,

01:01:54.640 these people don't believe

01:01:55.280 in the environment,

01:01:56.080 I'm not going to vote for them.

01:01:57.660 And we need to make sure

01:01:59.000 that the platform

01:02:00.080 that the Conservatives win on

01:02:01.660 is a visible centre-right platform.

01:02:04.100 But it has to be one

01:02:05.500 that is on the common ground,

01:02:08.080 not just...

01:02:08.800 You know, this whole...

01:02:09.260 I don't buy the centre-ground thing.

01:02:10.560 It's not linear.

01:02:11.400 It's more than 3D.

01:02:12.920 It's got to be on the common ground

01:02:14.140 where the bulk of people are.

01:02:16.240 And the bulk of people,

01:02:17.800 you know,

01:02:18.340 you get outside the cities,

01:02:19.980 flooding everywhere.

01:02:22.260 Why are places getting flooded?

01:02:24.120 Many people believe

01:02:25.160 that it's climate change

01:02:26.140 and they want to see us solving it.

01:02:28.040 Now,

01:02:28.580 you could pick an adaptation strategy,

01:02:32.300 for example.

01:02:33.100 You could look at

01:02:33.760 technological strategies.

01:02:35.740 You could look at

01:02:36.080 a whole bunch of things.

01:02:37.220 So the conversation, again,

01:02:38.840 has got to expand

01:02:39.720 beyond just net zero.

01:02:41.680 Let's look at all the things

01:02:42.760 that we can do.

01:02:43.540 But let's not bankrupt ourselves.

01:02:45.040 Well, that's what I'm saying.

01:02:45.960 But if our electricity prices

01:02:47.200 are four times

01:02:47.880 what they are in the US,

01:02:48.740 how are you going to run

01:02:49.560 an industry?

01:02:49.900 Yeah, that's crazy.

01:02:50.740 But, you know,

01:02:51.580 the US also has

01:02:52.520 a net zero agenda.

01:02:54.000 No, they do not.

01:02:55.240 They do not have

01:02:56.340 a net zero agenda.

01:02:57.180 But you would have heard

01:02:58.260 Biden talked about net zero,

01:03:00.620 but they still had

01:03:01.880 their electricity prices

01:03:03.700 less than half of what ours were.

01:03:05.600 So let's look at

01:03:06.420 what we are actually doing.

01:03:07.980 Do we need a boiler tax,

01:03:09.240 for instance?

01:03:09.740 Do we need all of the...

01:03:10.820 Look at the policies in detail.

01:03:12.520 If you just look at the headline,

01:03:14.160 you won't get to the root

01:03:15.260 of what is causing the problem.

01:03:16.440 Well, in America,

01:03:17.580 they believe in producing energy

01:03:19.460 and making it cheap.

01:03:20.760 Exactly.

01:03:21.260 Right.

01:03:21.680 That's where we should get to.

01:03:23.160 That's where we should get to.

01:03:24.020 Do you believe that?

01:03:24.600 Of course I do.

01:03:25.740 That's why at PMQs today,

01:03:27.140 I'm talking about making sure

01:03:28.660 that we keep our oil

01:03:29.860 and gas fields open.

01:03:30.840 Because even if you want

01:03:32.080 to get to net zero,

01:03:33.640 gas and oil

01:03:34.640 are part of that transition.

01:03:36.640 Net zero does not mean

01:03:38.140 absolute zero.

01:03:39.320 Too many people think

01:03:40.220 that absolute zero

01:03:41.060 is where we're going.

01:03:42.160 You can still have fossil fuels

01:03:43.740 and be net zero.

01:03:44.760 But what we are doing,

01:03:46.380 where we're not thinking

01:03:47.220 about these things properly,

01:03:48.380 not having proper plans,

01:03:49.540 is the issue.

01:03:51.320 And we need to start

01:03:52.380 talking seriously about that.

01:03:54.480 Because there's also

01:03:55.780 the other element of it.

01:03:56.820 It's going,

01:03:57.500 if all you're doing

01:03:58.880 is making your country poorer,

01:04:00.920 the Chinese aren't doing that.

01:04:02.820 The Indians aren't doing that.

01:04:04.140 I was talking to an economist

01:04:05.700 who was saying to me,

01:04:06.720 if you're looking

01:04:07.200 at current projections,

01:04:09.140 Poland's going to have

01:04:10.140 a higher GDP than us

01:04:11.560 by 2030.

01:04:13.220 And for 2035,

01:04:15.360 it looks like the Romanians

01:04:16.340 are going to beat us.

01:04:17.380 And you're there

01:04:18.200 looking at this going,

01:04:19.820 well, this is just suicide,

01:04:21.360 isn't it?

01:04:21.680 That is why

01:04:22.660 all the things

01:04:23.400 I'm talking about

01:04:24.220 are about how we create

01:04:25.540 prosperity in our country.

01:04:27.580 What are we doing

01:04:28.060 on education?

01:04:28.920 Because if you let

01:04:30.000 the education system change

01:04:31.360 to where Labour's taking it,

01:04:32.860 we're going to have more people

01:04:34.000 not knowing what's going on.

01:04:35.400 What are we doing

01:04:36.080 on employment?

01:04:36.800 What are we doing

01:04:37.260 for business?

01:04:38.060 How are we getting

01:04:38.600 people back to work?

01:04:39.560 How do we stop ourselves

01:04:40.880 from de-industrialising?

01:04:42.460 Give those licence applications

01:04:44.380 to those oil and gas fields.

01:04:45.840 Keir Starmer could do it like that.

01:04:47.680 He could,

01:04:48.280 but he doesn't want to.

01:04:49.440 We are the only people

01:04:50.600 who are going to expose that.

01:04:52.240 But yes, you're right.

01:04:53.100 If we carry on

01:04:54.260 on the trajectory

01:04:55.380 that Labour are taking us on,

01:04:57.380 then yeah,

01:04:58.100 all those countries

01:04:58.800 will become richer.

01:04:59.760 And I do not want to see that.

01:05:01.420 We need to fight for our country.

01:05:03.120 And have you won these arguments

01:05:04.400 within your party?

01:05:06.140 Yes,

01:05:06.720 because I made those arguments

01:05:08.000 in the leadership contest.

01:05:09.560 And it doesn't mean

01:05:10.180 that everybody is going to agree

01:05:11.340 with every single thing

01:05:12.480 that I say.

01:05:13.700 I didn't agree

01:05:14.580 with every single thing

01:05:15.580 that every leader

01:05:16.160 of the Conservative Party said.

01:05:17.580 But if you can show

01:05:18.540 that you've got a vision

01:05:19.580 for how we're going

01:05:20.220 to make the country better,

01:05:21.380 and you can show

01:05:22.080 that you've got a plan,

01:05:23.260 here is the way,

01:05:23.920 and you do it in a way

01:05:25.380 that isn't just shouting

01:05:26.440 at people

01:05:26.960 or dictating to them,

01:05:29.020 then they will come on board.

01:05:30.340 And one of the things

01:05:31.020 I said I wasn't going to do

01:05:32.340 was just dictate things

01:05:34.780 like leaving the ECHR.

01:05:36.480 I do think on balance

01:05:37.520 we're probably going

01:05:38.320 to have to leave.

01:05:39.160 But what I wasn't going

01:05:39.960 to do was say,

01:05:40.800 we're leaving the ECHR

01:05:41.880 my way or the highway.

01:05:43.360 That would just have split

01:05:44.100 the party,

01:05:45.100 that Lib Dems would have

01:05:45.840 been the opposition,

01:05:46.820 and we could have had

01:05:47.440 a great conversation

01:05:48.220 about the ECHR,

01:05:49.420 but nobody would be

01:05:50.920 holding Labour

01:05:51.420 to account right now.

01:05:52.840 I have a responsibility

01:05:53.880 as leader of the opposition

01:05:55.320 to do the job

01:05:56.540 that I've been given.

01:05:57.820 It's not an easy job.

01:05:58.880 Everyone who's done it

01:05:59.560 before me has said

01:06:00.120 this is the toughest job.

01:06:01.220 I am actually enjoying it

01:06:02.480 because I love a challenge,

01:06:04.020 and I love an argument,

01:06:05.040 as you can see,

01:06:05.640 from the times

01:06:06.100 that we've had here.

01:06:06.900 You know, I love it,

01:06:07.480 and I love being challenged.

01:06:08.440 I don't mind you asking me

01:06:09.560 tough questions

01:06:10.100 about immigration

01:06:11.060 because it gives me

01:06:12.340 an opportunity

01:06:12.920 to talk to all

01:06:13.900 of your listeners

01:06:14.500 who can hear

01:06:15.640 what I have to say

01:06:16.880 directly,

01:06:17.900 and then they can

01:06:18.540 make up their minds.

01:06:19.680 And that's why

01:06:20.760 I'm in politics.

01:06:21.520 You know, I love fixing things,

01:06:22.800 and being an engineer

01:06:24.020 is always going to stay with me.

01:06:25.540 I want to fix stuff,

01:06:26.700 but we've got to have a plan.

01:06:27.980 We've got to do it properly,

01:06:28.920 and it's not just chit-chat

01:06:30.120 and making announcements

01:06:31.380 and striding

01:06:31.960 across the world stage.

01:06:33.040 It's hard graft.

01:06:34.620 It can often be very difficult,

01:06:36.260 and you've got to be brave.

01:06:37.680 And I'm not scared.

01:06:38.800 I will always be brave

01:06:39.680 about these things.

01:06:40.640 There's one part

01:06:41.500 of the problem

01:06:42.820 and the challenge

01:06:43.400 that you're going to face

01:06:44.500 if you get into government.

01:06:48.080 France is speaking

01:06:48.620 from experience.

01:06:49.120 Yeah, exactly.

01:06:50.500 Listen, I know.

01:06:51.440 Tell me about your experience.

01:06:53.060 What happened?

01:06:54.260 Yeah, which is

01:06:55.900 the civil service

01:06:57.720 because many politicians

01:06:59.400 that we've had

01:07:00.080 sitting in your seat

01:07:01.280 and people like Dominic Cummings

01:07:03.180 have spoken about this as well,

01:07:04.480 going, look,

01:07:05.120 it's all very well.

01:07:05.980 You get into power

01:07:06.840 and then you try

01:07:07.880 and get the civil service

01:07:09.260 to enact policies

01:07:10.440 and they simply refuse to do it

01:07:12.320 or they obfuscate

01:07:13.600 and you're going,

01:07:14.500 what is going on?

01:07:15.880 What is the experience

01:07:16.660 that you had specifically?

01:07:18.060 I was taking the piss.

01:07:20.860 Francis has zero experience

01:07:22.360 in politics.

01:07:22.920 You looked traumatised.

01:07:23.800 Yeah, no,

01:07:24.360 because I was thinking

01:07:25.360 about my teaching career

01:07:26.480 and then I got a PTSD.

01:07:27.760 Right.

01:07:27.900 So, I remember

01:07:31.180 at the last party conference

01:07:33.000 I made a joke

01:07:33.700 and I said

01:07:34.280 that 10% of civil servants

01:07:36.640 are magnificent

01:07:37.780 and the other 10%

01:07:39.320 should probably be in prison.

01:07:40.760 You know,

01:07:41.020 leaking official secrets,

01:07:42.640 obstructing ministers

01:07:43.480 and so on

01:07:44.120 and there was this big hoo-ha

01:07:45.400 that said I want to put

01:07:46.340 50,000 people in jail

01:07:47.600 and so on

01:07:48.060 but the point I was making...

01:07:49.320 We don't have the prison places

01:07:50.280 for a start.

01:07:51.600 He'd have to release

01:07:52.240 sex offenders.

01:07:53.200 Definitely not doing that

01:07:55.680 but the point I was making

01:07:56.800 is that we shouldn't put

01:07:58.560 all civil servants

01:07:59.540 in a bucket.

01:08:00.720 There are some great people

01:08:02.240 who work in our civil service

01:08:04.060 and they are more frustrated

01:08:05.980 than you or I are

01:08:07.960 by their colleagues

01:08:09.020 who are obstructing

01:08:09.920 because they have to live

01:08:11.280 with them constantly

01:08:12.140 and I remember

01:08:13.520 talking to one official

01:08:15.600 who was so good

01:08:17.160 and she was complaining

01:08:18.160 about the,

01:08:20.180 you know,

01:08:20.380 some of these

01:08:21.020 diversity policies,

01:08:22.620 how they were actually

01:08:23.400 unmeritocratic

01:08:23.800 and how,

01:08:25.700 you know,

01:08:26.000 there was a scene

01:08:26.900 in the civil service

01:08:27.720 that was very worried

01:08:28.940 about self-ID

01:08:29.760 and all the pronoun stuff

01:08:31.560 that they needed

01:08:32.180 to get promoted

01:08:32.920 and I said,

01:08:33.700 why don't you speak out

01:08:34.580 about it?

01:08:35.180 You know,

01:08:35.380 I will support you.

01:08:36.360 I will give you cover

01:08:37.180 and she said,

01:08:38.200 yeah,

01:08:38.460 but what happens

01:08:39.820 when you're gone?

01:08:40.880 The ministers change

01:08:41.740 all the time.

01:08:42.480 What if there's an election

01:08:43.860 and I get a new minister?

01:08:45.540 What's going to happen

01:08:46.360 to me?

01:08:46.880 There's not going to be

01:08:47.480 anyone to protect me.

01:08:48.680 So we need to empower

01:08:49.720 the good people.

01:08:50.860 We need to make sure

01:08:51.720 that when we have stuff

01:08:52.920 that me's doing,

01:08:54.340 we bring the good people forward

01:08:55.820 and we also need to be able

01:08:57.620 to sack the people

01:08:59.040 who are not good.

01:09:00.320 At the moment,

01:09:01.200 ministers cannot sack

01:09:02.280 because that creates,

01:09:04.200 it affects civil service

01:09:05.760 impartiality.

01:09:06.740 So the performance

01:09:07.520 management system

01:09:08.520 needs to change

01:09:09.720 to one where people

01:09:10.620 who don't perform

01:09:11.580 do get sacked.

01:09:12.740 I remember asking

01:09:13.380 my department

01:09:13.940 how many people

01:09:15.200 have we sacked

01:09:15.880 since the department started

01:09:17.840 and I was told none,

01:09:19.580 ever.

01:09:19.780 And I thought

01:09:21.300 that that was extraordinary.

01:09:22.660 You know,

01:09:22.860 people might be

01:09:23.760 encouraged to leave

01:09:24.620 or voluntary redundancies,

01:09:26.040 but actually,

01:09:26.740 if there are bad eggs

01:09:27.960 in any organisation,

01:09:29.500 and that includes

01:09:30.180 Parliament as well,

01:09:31.600 they should be removed.

01:09:32.800 You need that performance

01:09:33.780 management system.

01:09:34.620 You need incentives.

01:09:36.420 And when you have

01:09:36.960 the right incentives,

01:09:37.900 sometimes the incentives

01:09:38.740 are pay,

01:09:39.580 sometimes it's freedom

01:09:40.440 to make mistakes.

01:09:42.080 When you have

01:09:42.820 the right incentives,

01:09:43.720 you can have people

01:09:44.560 delivering.

01:09:45.380 But I also think

01:09:46.300 that we need

01:09:46.920 more politics

01:09:47.960 in the civil service

01:09:49.500 because the civil service

01:09:51.200 has already been politicised.

01:09:52.880 All of these impartial

01:09:54.060 and neutral organisations,

01:09:55.620 these quangos,

01:09:56.780 regulators,

01:09:57.300 they've all been politicised.

01:09:58.960 And politicians

01:09:59.760 have been giving power away.

01:10:01.660 You know,

01:10:01.920 we'll make this independent,

01:10:03.300 we'll make that independent.

01:10:04.340 And we have so little power now.

01:10:06.200 We certainly did as ministers.

01:10:07.380 I'd want to do things.

01:10:08.360 I thought,

01:10:08.820 you can't do that.

01:10:09.640 You know,

01:10:10.300 Bank of England,

01:10:11.680 the Competition

01:10:12.620 and Markets Authority,

01:10:13.520 we've created legislation

01:10:15.360 that's given power away

01:10:17.000 to independent organisations.

01:10:19.060 And it sounded good

01:10:20.100 at the time.

01:10:21.100 But actually,

01:10:21.840 what it means is that

01:10:22.660 the democracy is sticky.

01:10:24.740 You vote for things

01:10:25.480 and it's hard to make it happen.

01:10:26.720 If it isn't to a quango,

01:10:28.280 it's, you know,

01:10:29.000 a court decision.

01:10:30.260 You look at what we're,

01:10:31.100 you know,

01:10:31.440 what we're dealing with

01:10:32.580 on borders,

01:10:33.180 for example,

01:10:34.180 endless sort of

01:10:35.020 court obstruction.

01:10:35.940 You look at this Rosebank

01:10:36.960 and Jackdaw oilfield issue.

01:10:39.120 That's courts saying,

01:10:40.400 no,

01:10:40.660 we want to do net zero.

01:10:41.680 We've got to get

01:10:42.600 some of that power back.

01:10:44.160 And it's really important

01:10:45.160 because when you look

01:10:46.020 at Gen Z

01:10:46.580 and their faith

01:10:47.260 in democracy,

01:10:48.860 it's shaky

01:10:50.520 to put it mildly.

01:10:52.040 There's a lot of Gen Z,

01:10:53.340 I think it's something

01:10:53.900 like 52%,

01:10:54.900 who are favouring

01:10:56.440 a strongman authoritarian

01:10:58.440 in order to get things done.

01:11:00.720 And as somebody

01:11:01.320 who has seen

01:11:02.740 the effects of that

01:11:03.780 firsthand,

01:11:05.140 that is terrifying.

01:11:06.340 They might settle

01:11:06.860 for a strong woman as well.

01:11:10.100 Democratically elected.

01:11:10.940 That's the one thing

01:11:13.460 that I'll never give up on.

01:11:14.960 I lived in a place

01:11:15.640 that had soldiers

01:11:16.360 and strongmen.

01:11:17.320 And, you know,

01:11:17.800 you'd see people

01:11:18.540 strung from lampposts

01:11:20.440 to dead bodies

01:11:20.960 in the street.

01:11:23.200 The reason why

01:11:24.440 young people are saying this

01:11:25.680 is because they haven't

01:11:26.680 seen it.

01:11:27.620 And this is why

01:11:28.620 those of us

01:11:29.440 who have seen these things

01:11:30.600 need to protect

01:11:31.680 what is so special

01:11:32.600 about here.

01:11:33.560 It's very easy

01:11:34.760 to think

01:11:35.600 that, yeah,

01:11:36.300 what we just need

01:11:36.880 is a strong person

01:11:37.780 and then they'll,

01:11:38.540 you know,

01:11:38.820 they'll give them

01:11:39.360 the what for.

01:11:40.400 But what always happens

01:11:41.400 with these revolutions

01:11:42.360 is,

01:11:43.660 and we saw this

01:11:44.360 with many countries

01:11:45.100 during the Arab Spring,

01:11:46.100 we saw it in Libya,

01:11:46.920 we saw it in Syria

01:11:47.680 and so on.

01:11:48.700 So something worse

01:11:49.580 takes its place.

01:11:51.200 Democracy is the worst

01:11:52.420 possible system

01:11:53.300 until you've tried

01:11:54.200 all the others,

01:11:55.180 you know,

01:11:55.560 or there's a phrase

01:11:56.840 to that extent.

01:11:57.520 And we need to start

01:11:59.000 reminding them

01:11:59.860 of what the consequences are.

01:12:01.780 And once you lose it,

01:12:03.240 you know,

01:12:03.620 go to Iran

01:12:04.460 and see what happened

01:12:05.320 when they got

01:12:05.680 the Ayatollahs in.

01:12:07.060 Once you lose it,

01:12:08.160 it is so,

01:12:09.040 so hard

01:12:10.020 to get it back.

01:12:11.100 And we have to protect

01:12:12.140 what is special

01:12:12.740 about the UK.

01:12:13.620 There's one piece

01:12:14.380 of that that I will

01:12:15.080 disagree with,

01:12:15.780 which is the job

01:12:17.540 of, I think,

01:12:18.200 all politicians

01:12:18.900 across the board now

01:12:19.860 is to make sure

01:12:20.480 that democracy

01:12:21.140 is the least worst system.

01:12:22.820 Yes, absolutely.

01:12:23.560 And the problem

01:12:24.020 is that a lot of people,

01:12:25.440 it's not just that

01:12:26.160 they don't know

01:12:27.140 the consequences

01:12:27.880 of the things

01:12:28.440 you're talking about,

01:12:29.140 which I think

01:12:29.560 is very true.

01:12:30.460 We don't appreciate

01:12:31.500 enough in the West

01:12:32.960 how fortunate we are

01:12:34.040 to have what we have.

01:12:35.220 It's a complacency.

01:12:36.540 Absolutely.

01:12:37.180 But on the other hand,

01:12:38.300 we have got to make sure

01:12:39.440 that young people

01:12:40.160 in particular

01:12:40.700 have a stake

01:12:41.300 in our society

01:12:42.040 because if they don't,

01:12:43.580 well, they might say,

01:12:44.360 well,

01:12:45.160 maybe this is,

01:12:47.360 maybe a few people

01:12:49.220 stringing from a lamppost,

01:12:50.820 a few civil servants

01:12:52.860 hanging from a lamppost,

01:12:55.380 maybe it's worth it.

01:12:56.300 So that's why

01:12:57.080 politicians really have to.

01:12:58.280 We've got to give,

01:12:58.840 we've got to,

01:12:59.540 you know,

01:12:59.940 you're absolutely right

01:13:00.800 about that.

01:13:01.620 We have got to give

01:13:02.400 young people hope.

01:13:03.440 We have to.

01:13:04.360 It's why I say

01:13:05.200 the net zero

01:13:05.800 has got to have

01:13:06.660 no regrets.

01:13:08.040 If you're pursuing

01:13:08.520 a policy like that,

01:13:10.060 then what are you doing

01:13:11.280 on, you know,

01:13:12.440 building homes?

01:13:13.340 Where are the cities

01:13:13.860 of the future?

01:13:14.760 Where are the great jobs?

01:13:16.180 And a lot of these jobs

01:13:17.120 that we're hearing

01:13:17.940 from these net zero plans,

01:13:19.700 it's junk.

01:13:20.500 You know,

01:13:21.000 the chairman of,

01:13:22.060 you know,

01:13:22.380 Great British Energy

01:13:23.560 said that they'll get,

01:13:25.020 you know,

01:13:25.360 a thousand jobs

01:13:26.080 in 20 years.

01:13:26.740 I mean,

01:13:27.820 it's just,

01:13:28.560 it's just extraordinary.

01:13:30.960 We have to,

01:13:31.700 we have to get serious.

01:13:33.400 And I can see why

01:13:35.220 some people will say that,

01:13:36.420 you know,

01:13:36.520 they look at,

01:13:37.260 you know,

01:13:37.620 the Gulf and you can look

01:13:38.920 at the UAE or even Saudi

01:13:40.200 and they're growing.

01:13:42.040 They are taking growth

01:13:43.240 seriously.

01:13:43.900 And I remember speaking

01:13:44.740 to a Saudi minister

01:13:45.760 because I remember hearing

01:13:48.200 about what Saudi Arabia

01:13:49.080 was like

01:13:49.680 and could see for myself

01:13:52.080 last year

01:13:52.580 how it was changing.

01:13:53.540 And I said,

01:13:53.980 what made you carry out

01:13:55.280 all these changes?

01:13:56.020 And he said to me,

01:13:57.160 our young people

01:13:58.000 were not coming back.

01:13:59.440 They were going to the US,

01:14:00.800 they were going to the UK

01:14:01.660 and they were not coming back.

01:14:03.900 And we needed to make sure

01:14:05.280 that we gave them a country

01:14:06.840 that they wanted

01:14:07.440 to come back to.

01:14:08.540 That is what the UK

01:14:09.560 needs to do.

01:14:10.420 And at the moment,

01:14:11.120 we're just thinking,

01:14:12.120 yeah,

01:14:12.380 it's fine.

01:14:12.820 And you listen to Labour

01:14:13.760 and they think,

01:14:14.580 well,

01:14:14.800 you know,

01:14:15.120 don't forget to shut the door

01:14:16.640 on your way out

01:14:17.360 if you're leaving.

01:14:18.100 That is not the right attitude.

01:14:19.880 We need to make

01:14:20.600 our society attractive,

01:14:22.040 not just to asylum seekers

01:14:23.480 and economic migrants,

01:14:24.820 but also to those

01:14:25.820 people who will help

01:14:26.840 continue to make it

01:14:28.000 a great place.

01:14:30.140 We're going to go to

01:14:30.980 questions from our listeners,

01:14:32.340 which they've already submitted.

01:14:33.820 But before we do,

01:14:34.520 we always end with

01:14:35.060 the same question,

01:14:36.160 which is what's the one thing

01:14:37.160 we're not talking about

01:14:38.320 that we should be?

01:14:39.360 Before Kemi answers

01:14:40.460 a final question,

01:14:41.460 at the end of the interview,

01:14:42.800 make sure to head over

01:14:43.820 to our sub stack.

01:14:45.000 The link is in the description

01:14:46.240 where you'll be able

01:14:47.560 to see this.

01:14:49.140 Will a Tory party

01:14:50.080 work with reform

01:14:50.840 to build actual

01:14:51.660 conservative values

01:14:52.660 into the system?

01:14:53.960 When can we expect

01:14:55.540 a detailed immigration policy

01:14:57.180 from the Conservative Party?

01:14:58.640 How will you encourage

01:14:59.840 more traditionally

01:15:00.600 left-leaning voters

01:15:02.660 to view you

01:15:04.060 as the best option

01:15:05.100 for the country

01:15:05.580 at the next election?

01:15:07.340 What's the one thing

01:15:08.400 we're not talking about

01:15:09.320 that we should be,

01:15:10.440 I think,

01:15:11.120 is children on social media.

01:15:13.740 I have very strong views

01:15:15.000 about this.

01:15:16.160 And I've been reading

01:15:16.780 a lot of Jonathan Haidt.

01:15:18.620 He wrote this great book,

01:15:19.820 The Coddling of the American Mind.

01:15:21.760 And he's got a sub stack.

01:15:23.440 His sub stack is free,

01:15:24.640 just so you know.

01:15:28.440 Kemi,

01:15:28.960 that's very left-wing.

01:15:30.120 Can I just say that?

01:15:31.260 His sub stack,

01:15:32.380 it probably has advertising.

01:15:33.620 Kemi, you're right,

01:15:34.140 you're supposed to pay for stuff.

01:15:36.260 I'm not reading it.

01:15:37.440 I'm not reading it.

01:15:38.640 I'm listening to your free podcast

01:15:40.540 on the Spotify

01:15:41.500 that I pay for,

01:15:42.320 by the way.

01:15:42.780 So I am paying for something.

01:15:44.180 But the point I'm making

01:15:45.260 is that Jonathan Haidt

01:15:47.160 talks about

01:15:47.900 what is happening

01:15:48.820 to young people,

01:15:49.940 girls in particular,

01:15:51.260 what's happening

01:15:51.900 to attention spans.

01:15:53.280 And I see it

01:15:54.000 with my own children

01:15:55.220 as they're getting older.

01:15:56.680 I used to let them

01:15:57.800 watch TV in the morning

01:15:59.000 because it meant

01:15:59.400 I got like an extra

01:16:00.120 half hour,

01:16:00.680 45 minutes.

01:16:02.020 And we had to stop

01:16:04.440 the TV time.

01:16:05.580 First of all,

01:16:06.000 because they're not even

01:16:06.520 watching proper stuff.

01:16:07.400 It's all YouTube

01:16:08.060 and they're going

01:16:09.520 on the internet.

01:16:10.740 Why is she having

01:16:11.080 a girl asking me?

01:16:11.720 It was coddling.

01:16:12.760 It was not you

01:16:16.100 they were watching.

01:16:16.760 They were watching

01:16:17.120 scary stuff like

01:16:17.960 Poppy Playtime and so on.

01:16:19.280 I would go into that.

01:16:21.120 But they were watching things

01:16:22.120 and I could see it

01:16:23.400 affecting their brains.

01:16:24.420 And my husband and I said,

01:16:25.480 we're just going to have

01:16:26.580 to give up on this sleep

01:16:27.580 and just cancel

01:16:29.300 morning TV time.

01:16:30.940 And they're not having

01:16:32.280 access to the internet.

01:16:33.600 And this is not even

01:16:34.260 social media.

01:16:35.780 My son started playing chess.

01:16:37.400 He's getting good at it.

01:16:38.840 My youngest daughter

01:16:39.860 is drawing.

01:16:40.800 It's just,

01:16:41.560 it's changed.

01:16:42.360 And I thought to myself

01:16:43.500 that I'm on my phone

01:16:45.140 the entire time.

01:16:45.900 They see me on the phone

01:16:46.700 the entire time.

01:16:47.580 And they got into this world

01:16:49.440 where the screen

01:16:50.200 is everything.

01:16:51.300 They don't know

01:16:51.860 how stuff works.

01:16:52.780 And I'm hearing this

01:16:53.680 across the board.

01:16:54.660 And when I was young,

01:16:56.060 not AIDS,

01:16:57.220 but when I was young,

01:16:58.280 I knew how to fix

01:16:58.920 a computer.

01:16:59.520 I knew how stuff worked.

01:17:00.720 They think everything

01:17:01.600 is a screen

01:17:02.600 and you just touch and swipe,

01:17:03.740 touch and swipe.

01:17:04.680 And we are losing

01:17:06.180 memories of how things

01:17:07.540 used to be,

01:17:08.500 you know,

01:17:08.900 of what's real,

01:17:09.680 what you can touch.

01:17:10.360 You know,

01:17:10.800 it's scary

01:17:13.160 and we're forgetting

01:17:14.320 what used to be.

01:17:15.280 And I see myself,

01:17:16.780 certainly the 80s generation,

01:17:18.400 as the last generation

01:17:19.580 that remembers

01:17:20.180 what analogue

01:17:20.960 was really like.

01:17:22.320 And my kids

01:17:23.240 don't get analogue.

01:17:24.780 You know,

01:17:25.100 I mean,

01:17:25.820 this is so bad.

01:17:26.640 I said something

01:17:28.180 and my five-year-old said,

01:17:29.600 what's a DVD?

01:17:30.700 And for me,

01:17:31.160 a DVD is still

01:17:32.200 new technology.

01:17:33.440 She said,

01:17:33.820 what's a DVD?

01:17:34.640 And I had to draw it

01:17:35.620 and I had to go

01:17:36.500 and find a DVD.

01:17:37.360 I said,

01:17:37.600 this is a DVD.

01:17:38.560 And she said,

01:17:39.340 oh,

01:17:39.640 okay,

01:17:40.000 you play music on it.

01:17:41.000 And I was like,

01:17:41.260 no,

01:17:41.420 that's a CD.

01:17:42.360 And it's fine.

01:17:44.100 Technology changes.

01:17:45.300 But the thing

01:17:46.280 that's really worrying

01:17:46.960 about social media

01:17:47.840 is the effect it's having.

01:17:49.120 And I could see

01:17:49.680 the effect that,

01:17:50.460 you know,

01:17:51.220 internet,

01:17:52.400 TV streaming

01:17:53.140 was having on my kids.

01:17:55.220 Social media

01:17:55.840 and what it's doing

01:17:56.860 to people's sense

01:17:57.980 of self-esteem

01:17:58.760 and how they see the world.

01:18:01.080 I think it's one

01:18:01.820 of the reasons

01:18:02.200 why a lot of young people

01:18:03.300 are so despondent.

01:18:05.040 I don't think the UK

01:18:05.920 is a racist country.

01:18:07.020 But now,

01:18:07.940 if you are on social media,

01:18:09.460 you can get lots

01:18:10.540 of horrible stuff

01:18:11.840 from a small number

01:18:12.920 of people,

01:18:13.680 people who aren't even

01:18:14.380 in our country.

01:18:15.480 And you can start

01:18:16.540 to think

01:18:17.260 that stuff is really bad

01:18:19.540 when it's not.

01:18:20.220 I think social media

01:18:21.080 colours the view

01:18:22.160 of what the world

01:18:23.280 is really like.

01:18:24.760 And the addictive

01:18:26.300 side of it,

01:18:27.280 you know,

01:18:27.980 it's just not for kids.

01:18:30.360 I think that we will

01:18:31.080 lose the future

01:18:31.980 if we don't minimise

01:18:33.420 the amount of time

01:18:34.200 that they spend on it.

01:18:34.900 And it is no coincidence

01:18:36.180 that China

01:18:37.300 not just bans Facebook,

01:18:39.240 but it restricts TikTok

01:18:40.500 for Chinese kids.

01:18:42.120 I think they get

01:18:42.660 about 40 minutes,

01:18:43.880 they pump educational

01:18:44.960 programmes through

01:18:45.640 the algorithms,

01:18:46.600 and then they pump

01:18:47.700 junk,

01:18:48.460 or they allow junk

01:18:49.200 to be pumped

01:18:49.680 to the algorithms

01:18:50.320 for our kids.

01:18:51.480 That's very worrying.

01:18:53.920 All right,

01:18:54.640 head on over

01:18:55.160 to our sub stack

01:18:55.800 and make sure you pay

01:18:56.540 for it,

01:18:56.960 unlike some people.

01:18:57.880 Yeah,

01:18:58.260 we're not left wing.

01:18:59.220 No.

01:19:00.720 For,

01:19:01.320 to watch rather,

01:19:02.900 Kemi,

01:19:03.180 answer your questions.

01:19:04.900 Would you establish

01:19:07.240 an Elon Musk-style

01:19:08.280 Department of Government

01:19:09.180 Efficiency?

01:19:10.140 If so,

01:19:10.820 who should be

01:19:11.420 the British Elon Musk?

01:19:12.480 Broadway's smash hit,

01:19:27.540 the Neil Diamond musical,

01:19:28.980 A Beautiful Noise,

01:19:30.440 is coming to Toronto.

01:19:31.820 The true story

01:19:32.600 of a kid from Brooklyn

01:19:33.660 destined for something more,

01:19:35.340 featuring all the songs

01:19:36.340 you love,

01:19:37.100 including America,

01:19:38.360 Forever in Blue Jeans,

01:19:39.540 and Sweet Caroline.

01:19:40.500 Like Jersey Boys and Beautiful,

01:19:42.880 the next musical mega hit is here,

01:19:45.180 the Neil Diamond musical,

01:19:46.780 A Beautiful Noise.

01:19:47.960 April 28th through June 7th,

01:19:49.920 2026,

01:19:51.000 the Princess of Wales Theatre.

01:19:52.900 Get tickets at mirvish.com.

01:19:56.780 Broadway's smash hit,

01:19:58.460 the Neil Diamond musical,

01:19:59.880 A Beautiful Noise,

01:20:01.340 is coming to Toronto.

01:20:02.740 The true story of a kid from Brooklyn

01:20:04.560 destined for something more,

01:20:06.260 featuring all the songs you love,

01:20:07.880 including America,

01:20:09.280 Forever in Blue Jeans,

01:20:10.520 and Sweet Caroline.

01:20:12.000 Like Jersey Boys and Beautiful,

01:20:13.800 the next musical mega hit is here,

01:20:16.060 the Neil Diamond musical,

01:20:17.660 A Beautiful Noise.

01:20:18.880 April 28th through June 7th,

01:20:20.820 2026,

01:20:21.900 the Princess of Wales Theatre.

01:20:23.800 Get tickets at mirvish.com.

TRIGGERnometry - February 09, 2025

We Deserved To Lose - Kemi Badenoch

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