TRIGGERnometry - “We need to stop relying on the government to solve our problems”

00:00:00.480 We often talk about being poor as if there's an honour in it, right?

00:00:04.800 Being poor is grinding. Let's release people from that.

00:00:08.080 And capitalism has set many more people out of poverty than any other system we yet know of.

00:00:13.760 Have you noticed that black people on the right don't abuse black people on the left?

00:00:18.400 But black people on the left abuse black people on the right.

00:00:21.280 You know what I mean? We're not black enough. We're the wrong kind of black.

00:00:23.760 We're coconuts. We've given in the slaves.

00:00:26.240 It means that white people on the left feel that they can abuse you as well.

00:00:29.280 So I remember I had a Labour MP call me a token ghetto boy.

00:00:34.640 Imagine a Republican or a Conservative MP, Senator, whatever, said those words.

00:00:40.240 People would be calling for their head.

00:00:42.800 You might hate your boss, but he was the one who risked the money to make your job.

00:00:46.800 It wasn't you. You're going to have to...

00:00:48.640 As we explain to our staff every day.

00:00:51.920 We owe tons of money to China,

00:00:54.880 where we should have probably built that financial partnership elsewhere in the world.

00:00:59.120 with people who are much more aligned with our thinking,

00:01:01.760 who are much less out to dominate the world.

00:01:04.480 I think the difference between India and China say India want to be a big powerful country.

00:01:09.200 They don't want to be your boss. China wants to be your boss.

00:01:21.360 Hey Francis, are you worried about inflation?

00:01:23.840 Absolutely mate. Every time I eat dairy, it smelts me right up.

00:01:30.320 That's bloating, not inflation.

00:01:32.160 What's the difference? Neither is good for you, and they both leave you feeling devalued.

00:01:38.480 Bosh!

00:01:39.600 Absolutely atrocious.

00:01:41.280 If you are worried about actual inflation and need impartial advice as to how to survive the economic crisis,

00:01:48.480 then Fortune and Freedom is for you.

00:01:51.360 Fortune and Freedom is published by South Bank Investment Research and is for the investor

00:01:57.200 looking to access a wide range of informed opinions on lots of different investing opportunities.

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00:02:34.400 The link is in the description.

00:02:36.960 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

00:02:40.880 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:02:42.160 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:02:47.520 Our brilliant guest today is a former mayoral candidate for this very city of London, Sean Bailey.

00:02:52.320 Welcome to Trigonometry.

00:02:53.280 Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.

00:02:55.200 It's really great to have you on, man. So I'll let people in on a little bit of insight into how we met.

00:03:00.640 We were doing TV together and we got chatting in the green room.

00:03:04.160 And we don't really have politicians on this show because we don't believe that they're going to be honest, honest conversations.

00:03:10.800 We don't think that's likely to happen with a politician.

00:03:13.200 But you and I had a very blunt and straightforward chat about some interesting things.

00:03:17.840 And I thought this guy's got some really cool things to say and he's actually prepared to say them.

00:03:22.480 Before we get into them, though, tell everybody who are you, how are you, where you are?

00:03:26.640 What has been your journey through life that leads you here?

00:03:28.800 Before I answer that question, I'll tell you why.

00:03:31.920 I'll tell your audience why politicians aren't real, because we punish them when they are.

00:03:36.480 True.

00:03:37.200 And everywhere in the world, we have the politicians we deserve.

00:03:40.400 And if we want better politicians, we shouldn't punish the ones who try to tell us the truth.

00:03:44.080 I think that's an important thing in the Western world in particular.

00:03:48.080 What we've done is give so much of our responsibility to politicians that we then can get away with stuff like the state of our children is not our politicians fault as our fault.

00:03:57.920 And we need to take responsibility for that by abusing them.

00:04:00.960 It means that we can we can put our hands up and sort of walk off and say it's not our fault.

00:04:04.320 And I think it's really important that especially younger generations realize you have to take responsibility for the world that you want.

00:04:11.280 If you look at Britain, for instance, Britain is a great nation and has been great for a very long time.

00:04:16.880 It wasn't politicians that made Britain great.

00:04:19.280 It's actually civic activity that made Britain great.

00:04:22.080 And civic activity means that the civilians in the peace have to get involved.

00:04:26.160 But that's my rant.

00:04:27.120 So just before you go on, though, I couldn't agree with you more.

00:04:30.480 It's the ethos of how we think about these things as well.

00:04:34.000 And I think people are now getting the sense of why this is going to be a great conversation.

00:04:37.440 Anyway, who are you?

00:04:38.640 Apart from that, so what's been going on in my...

00:04:40.880 So I'm a father of two.

00:04:42.000 I'm married to Ellie.

00:04:42.880 I have Aurora and Joshua as my children, 13 and 15.

00:04:46.400 I'm a Londoner born and bred.

00:04:47.920 I come from West London, Labyrinth Grove, around that area.

00:04:51.280 I grew up in a single parent family.

00:04:53.040 We were very poor, but very happy.

00:04:56.560 I never really realized I was poor until I was sort of into senior school.

00:05:01.920 And then because everybody around me was poor, none of us had anything.

00:05:04.480 And we were so ecstatically happy most of the time.

00:05:07.200 I didn't realize.

00:05:08.160 It's when you went to school and you started thinking, I can't afford a cap or jumper.

00:05:12.240 Those boys are wearing Farrah's.

00:05:13.600 They're like, Mum, could I have Farrah's?

00:05:14.640 Absolutely not.

00:05:15.360 You're going to have the plastic school trousers and you're going to love them.

00:05:18.720 And that experience was very important for me because it gave me a slightly different take

00:05:22.400 on the rich, poor thing.

00:05:24.080 I had much less envy about it.

00:05:26.800 It just felt like a problem that needed to be solved.

00:05:29.440 I'd like to believe what's driving me is good outcomes for people, including myself and my

00:05:34.560 family, but not just pure money, because I think that changes how you interact with the world.

00:05:38.880 It delivers a different kind of fear.

00:05:40.960 And I say all those things because that let me do what I really wanted to do.

00:05:45.280 So as I grew up, I got very involved in youth work.

00:05:48.480 I then went on and set up my own youth work charity.

00:05:52.160 And I was able to have the conversations with my local community that the social services and

00:05:57.120 the local council either couldn't have or didn't know they needed to have.

00:06:00.400 And I really enjoyed that.

00:06:01.840 The greatest things I've ever done is family therapy.

00:06:04.480 And basically, I just delivered people to family therapy.

00:06:07.120 My job club, because it gave the people around me an income to do with what as they pleased.

00:06:12.800 And I ran a football club.

00:06:15.360 I literally don't know the rules of football even now.

00:06:19.120 But what it meant was I could get at the time, which was our biggest issue to my mind,

00:06:23.440 fathers and sons, and by extension, families together to build their own resilience,

00:06:29.520 their own stories to pass on.

00:06:32.400 And I really, really enjoyed that.

00:06:34.080 And it looks like my community did.

00:06:36.320 But all of those activities were what pushed me to politics.

00:06:39.760 Yes, I'm an elected conservative politician.

00:06:41.920 I've stood for parliament twice.

00:06:43.280 I ran for mayor the year before last.

00:06:46.400 But I would like to believe if you spoke to me for more than 30 seconds,

00:06:51.200 I'm not what you think a conservative politician is.

00:06:53.520 But actually, I am what a conservative is.

00:06:56.160 I believe in country.

00:06:57.040 I believe in family.

00:06:58.080 I'm a church goer.

00:06:59.280 I mean, I pray and run around and sing hymns and all that jazz.

00:07:02.880 And I do those things because I live in a country where you're allowed to.

00:07:06.640 And I believe that you should be allowed to do that.

00:07:08.400 My neighbor is a Muslim.

00:07:09.520 And me and him have great fun.

00:07:11.280 Our neighbor across the road is a Hindu.

00:07:14.160 And we celebrate all of our holidays, as it were.

00:07:17.760 And we do that because we're in this country, which is a Western country,

00:07:21.040 that allows you to do that.

00:07:23.120 My son, who's 11 at the time, said something really great to me.

00:07:27.120 He said, I love Tuvali.

00:07:28.240 I said, why is that?

00:07:28.800 He says, and have a party.

00:07:29.760 Do you know what I mean?

00:07:30.960 And it's the whole idea that because we're rolling around in other people's culture,

00:07:36.080 we can take some of the strength from that.

00:07:38.480 And I like that.

00:07:40.720 But I wasn't born in that situation.

00:07:45.760 I grew to that situation through going through life.

00:07:48.160 But my first mentor was a man called Baron Hume, who was an absolute socialist.

00:07:54.160 He's a socialist.

00:07:55.120 But he's one of the greatest people I've ever met because he wasn't trying to make me a socialist.

00:08:00.160 All he ever used to do is point out why he's a socialist.

00:08:03.280 And he used to ask me questions that he thought needed solving poverty, redistribution,

00:08:08.800 and ask me how I would want to solve them.

00:08:11.120 He challenged me to do that rather than tell me his political belief is the way.

00:08:15.680 And I forever am grateful for that.

00:08:18.000 Forever grateful.

00:08:19.280 And what you were talking about there is so interesting, Sean, because you're a conservative politician,

00:08:25.840 but I would think that if you ask most conservative politicians what conservatism is,

00:08:32.320 I don't think they'd be able to answer you.

00:08:34.400 And if they do give you an answer, it's not going to be an honest one.

00:08:38.240 Well, let's check if I can answer.

00:08:42.080 Look, for me, conservatism has two, potentially three areas that you need to focus on.

00:08:47.680 One is the technical conservatism, small government, freedom of speech, freedom of expression.

00:08:54.720 I believe in things like marriage.

00:08:56.800 I believe in things like education.

00:08:58.880 I believe in capitalism, for want of a better term.

00:09:03.120 Now, do I think capitalism has all the answers?

00:09:05.200 No.

00:09:06.000 I remember a guy saying to me, are you a factorite?

00:09:08.480 No.

00:09:08.800 But I believe she did the right thing in the wrong way.

00:09:11.600 Making a strong community, both family and financial, gives you the freedom to explore things.

00:09:18.720 Like, being poor, we often talk about being poor as if there's an honour in it, right?

00:09:26.800 Being poor is grinding.

00:09:28.400 Let's release people from that.

00:09:30.080 And capitalism has set many more people out of poverty than any other system we yet know of.

00:09:35.440 And that's why I think conservatism, small government, innovation, entrepreneurs,

00:09:40.000 letting people keep their money, all of that stuff's important.

00:09:43.120 And if you flip over to the social side,

00:09:45.520 I would say that conservatism is about the responsibility of adults.

00:09:49.200 If you see what's happening in most of the Western world,

00:09:51.200 they're infantilising adults.

00:09:52.720 And by turn, we then infantilise our children even more.

00:09:55.840 The strongest communities in the world have a few things in common.

00:09:59.600 One is they're financially stable.

00:10:01.760 Two is they're far away from the government.

00:10:04.000 They don't need the government.

00:10:06.160 Basically, most of their interaction with the government's around tax and the law.

00:10:10.640 And I think, thirdly, they take responsibility for the education of their children.

00:10:15.120 Now, I don't mean you should educate your children in a vacuum,

00:10:17.760 but you should make sure your children are being educated and you should check,

00:10:21.440 and you have the right to check what that education is.

00:10:25.040 You know, I sometimes worry that in the Western world,

00:10:27.840 we are taking all of that education into the formal system,

00:10:33.200 which means that parents have no say on how their children are educated,

00:10:36.560 which is wrong because in our tradition and in our legal system,

00:10:41.120 you are legally responsible for your children.

00:10:43.120 So therefore, you should be intimately wrapped up in what they're learning.

00:10:46.320 And sure, you touch on something that I've been present to for a long time now,

00:10:53.680 which is I kind of feel like whenever anything happens in our country,

00:10:57.680 whatever that problem is now, we always now, as a society,

00:11:01.680 look to government to solve the problem.

00:11:03.280 And I'll tell you where that's a problem.

00:11:06.160 So I had a very interesting conversation with a guy on a bus.

00:11:09.520 I love randomly speaking to London.

00:11:11.200 It's great.

00:11:12.000 It's half the reason I ran for mayor of London.

00:11:13.520 The more people recognise me and are willing to have that conversation.

00:11:16.560 And we were talking about, you know, what has the government done?

00:11:20.080 What has the government done? What has the government done?

00:11:21.600 We actually talk about drug dealing or is that.

00:11:23.440 And I said, the government's relationship with drug dealing is law enforcement.

00:11:27.680 That's it, right?

00:11:28.800 Your relationship with drug dealing is do you buy drugs?

00:11:31.280 Do you have the people in your family buy drugs?

00:11:33.280 What about the children in the world?

00:11:34.240 So I said to him, what have you done about drug dealing in your area?

00:11:37.680 And he said, nothing.

00:11:38.480 And you see the bell go on in his head.

00:11:40.080 Oh, he's like, what do you mean?

00:11:41.200 And I said, exactly.

00:11:41.840 If we, as the adults in our own world and in our children's life, don't do something about the

00:11:48.400 prevalence of drug dealing, nobody can.

00:11:50.880 Nobody can.

00:11:51.440 And he said, yeah, you're right.

00:11:52.240 And we had a big conversation about nobody grasses and all the rest.

00:11:54.800 I said, exactly.

00:11:55.840 So if we're to save our children and our neighbourhoods from something like that,

00:12:00.240 we have to do something about that.

00:12:02.080 I remember when I used to be special advisor to the prime minister, I probably should have mentioned that.

00:12:08.160 I used to be special advisor to the prime minister.

00:12:10.800 In what area?

00:12:11.920 In youth and crime and just across the piece because David Cameron was very interested in my take on most

00:12:19.360 things because he saw I have no white middle class skill, which helps in certain situations because

00:12:27.360 I'm looking at it purely from the effect.

00:12:30.400 And my politics, I'd like to believe, is of poorer people.

00:12:34.560 How do people who need to work keep working, get ahead, have a life?

00:12:39.520 So I was often asked, what do you think about this?

00:12:43.440 Should the government be doing that?

00:12:45.040 And the government should do plenty.

00:12:47.120 But it should always remember that it's there to enable, not deliver.

00:12:51.920 And I used to say to David, if we seek to do everything for families, we will weaken those communities.

00:12:59.840 The community you come from, David, does mostly everything for itself.

00:13:03.520 Now, we all think that's because it has financial means, and that is true.

00:13:06.640 But it's also because it has the confidence and the historical timeline of doing it itself.

00:13:13.040 Because you can get the poorest immigrant communities in this country,

00:13:16.960 and they do almost everything for themselves.

00:13:19.520 And then you look at second and third generation, and then you have to figure out how much has this

00:13:24.720 idea that the government should do everything infiltrated that community.

00:13:28.080 And when you've indexed that, you can directly see how well that community has performed.

00:13:33.200 So I'll give you an idea.

00:13:34.160 The Indian community generally, particularly in London, is very independent, very go ahead.

00:13:38.880 And you've seen that in their level of sickness, in their level of income, everything.

00:13:43.040 They are a strong, cohesive community going ahead because they have taken charge.

00:13:48.000 They haven't fallen into that left-wing thing of, well, we'll wait for the government to save us.

00:13:52.000 Because the government isn't going to save you.

00:13:53.840 And the other thing I'd say to people watching this, no government has any money.

00:13:58.240 It's your money, your money, not theirs, your money.

00:14:02.720 And when you view it in that way, it makes you ask different questions.

00:14:06.640 In my world, I would send everybody a bill of what the government has been paying for with their tax return and see how happy they are.

00:14:16.880 I bet you the public would ask significantly different questions.

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00:14:50.480 And you say that you don't have white middle class guilt, which means that you can approach subjects in, I'll say, probably a far more honest and objective way.

00:15:02.480 What does white middle class guilt stop us seeing or stop us, what problems does it stop us dealing with effectively?

00:15:09.780 The general reality of white middle class guilt means that you're so busy from a right, from a sort of place of trying to help, trying to do things for a community that you wouldn't do to your own.

00:15:19.560 You know, and you make provisions for a community that feel good, but you don't have that problem in your community.

00:15:26.040 So I'll give you an example.

00:15:27.280 I remember when Tony Blair changed the law that your 14-year-old daughter could have an abortion without you knowing.

00:15:32.500 That is absolutely mental. Mental, mental, mental. You're responsible for this child morally, physically, legally.

00:15:40.980 They're going through one of the biggest situations that any human being can go through, and they're allowed not to tell you.

00:15:46.440 So if your daughter got up that morning and said she's not going to school, you're a discriminator, still get to school, she's had an abortion, you don't know. I mean, come on.

00:15:52.720 But the reason he could do that, because someone had convinced them all that, you know, children are sexually active, things have happened, you can't number them with a child.

00:16:01.700 But he hadn't realised that the children in his community, that doesn't happen to them.

00:16:06.640 Children in other communities, it does happen to them.

00:16:08.960 And by divorcing them from their parents, you increase the likelihood that that will happen.

00:16:13.460 You don't decrease it.

00:16:14.700 So it's a difference between dealing with the symptom or the unintended consequences of something that you've done.

00:16:22.780 I'll give another example.

00:16:24.460 I remember when Black Lives Matter came to prominence.

00:16:27.580 White middle class guilt meant that white people didn't scrutinise what Black Lives Matter was about, a Marxist organisation.

00:16:34.900 And that's great if you agree and you've looked at it.

00:16:37.500 And I remember when I said I'm not really on board here, black and white people freaked out.

00:16:41.940 And I distinctly remember, and I use the word, a brother stopped me in the street because he said it to me, that he's a brother.

00:16:48.760 And why I liked the way he approached me, because he was basically saying, look, as black people, we need to come together.

00:16:54.620 We've got a fight here.

00:16:55.820 I said, that's great.

00:16:56.980 But do you feel like these people are forwarding the fight?

00:16:59.620 I said, what do you mean?

00:17:00.520 I said, as far as I'm concerned, if I had a magic wand and could do anything for any community, particularly the black community, I would strengthen family structure.

00:17:09.200 Now, family, as you know, the sort of 2.4 children version of it, is the single strongest financial institution we've ever had on this planet thus far.

00:17:18.900 Mental institution as well.

00:17:20.960 And quite frankly, fun.

00:17:22.360 Everybody, black, white, young, old, gay, straight, come from some version of a family.

00:17:27.440 In the black community in particular, particularly in Britain, our family structure has been decimated.

00:17:32.300 More than 60% of black children grew up in a single parent family.

00:17:36.600 And that's important for many reasons.

00:17:38.780 But one I'll highlight is, if you come from a single parent family, you're that much more likely, significant more likely, five times more likely, to grow up in poverty.

00:17:47.760 Right.

00:17:47.940 So for me, that's enough of a reason to try and eradicate that.

00:17:51.040 Yeah.

00:17:51.520 Forget what that was.

00:17:52.160 And I said, on the Black Lives Matter website, their stated aim is to destroy the nuclear family.

00:17:59.500 And I said to him, do you agree with that?

00:18:02.620 And he locked in my boat.

00:18:03.800 He was stunned because, believe you me, he knew his stuff because he was coming from a place that I recognised of righteous black.

00:18:09.840 And I get that.

00:18:10.520 I understand that.

00:18:11.880 But he just, he was like, well, what does that mean?

00:18:15.780 I said, it means what it says on the tin.

00:18:17.860 And unless somebody else says it means something different, I can't support that.

00:18:22.500 Because you and I know that we, collectively and individually, we do better if our family structure better.

00:18:27.940 So either they don't understand our problems or their goal is not for us.

00:18:32.120 But either way, I'm not on board.

00:18:34.240 And his reaction to me was so emotional that he made me feel right.

00:18:43.180 Let's be clear.

00:18:43.680 He didn't tell me I was right.

00:18:45.260 But his reaction made me feel confident because in the newspaper, I was being destroyed on that.

00:18:49.760 But it's a case of, sometimes in public life, you have to be brave.

00:18:56.400 So the decision is, do I be brave?

00:18:59.240 Do I hide?

00:19:01.000 Or do I absolutely just, you know, join in?

00:19:04.360 And this, for me, was so important.

00:19:07.740 I kind of decided to be brave.

00:19:09.100 But he gave me the opportunity to test, to go a bit further with that.

00:19:12.980 Because then subsequent weeks, months, and year, I was continually asked the question.

00:19:16.780 Because obviously, people are now trying to use that to trip me up.

00:19:20.340 Because Black Lives Matter was gaining great prominence.

00:19:23.400 But what was interesting in, what was really interesting to me, black people would question me about it.

00:19:28.660 They wouldn't just destroy me.

00:19:29.840 So those who just destroyed me about it, they were never coming my way.

00:19:33.900 In that instance, they were never going to vote for me.

00:19:35.560 But I was interested, it was a sort of 80-20 thing.

00:19:38.980 20% of people just immediately destroyed you.

00:19:41.000 80% of people wanted to know why.

00:19:43.400 And I think myself and other people challenging Black Lives Matter has changed what they've had to do and changed people's orientation to it.

00:19:50.720 It's really, really interesting, Sean, the point that you were making there.

00:19:55.500 The thing that I don't get is just when you see a black person or an Asian person,

00:20:02.680 basically an ethnic minority come out and espouse conservative values and say,

00:20:07.400 I'm conservative, this is the way that I think.

00:20:10.300 The racial abuse that they get from the left is worse than anything that I've seen in years.

00:20:16.120 And bear in mind, I grew up in London, South London in the 80s.

00:20:18.600 So I've seen when race, when, you know, BNP pub down the road and, you know,

00:20:22.900 going with my cousin to watch a football and we got chased because he's brown.

00:20:26.440 I've seen that.

00:20:27.020 But, look, I mean, where do I start?

00:20:32.280 I remember someone, so I've had, if you watched my Twitter feed,

00:20:36.000 I remember someone from the press writing a thing about Twitter and racist games on Twitter.

00:20:40.840 And she said, I looked at your Twitter feed and I'm astonished.

00:20:43.040 You get as much racist abuse from black people as you do.

00:20:45.740 Why?

00:20:46.040 She was stunned by this.

00:20:47.740 And I said, there's two ways of looking at this, right?

00:20:49.880 One, a black person who's desperate to rent your, you know,

00:20:54.280 rent you sort of emotionally in a direction knows that our race in the context of Britain,

00:20:58.780 in the context of the Western world is very important to us

00:21:00.740 because it has defined a great deal of our history.

00:21:04.100 And another black person won't realise that they've been trained to do it by people on the left.

00:21:09.220 So I remember saying to a group of students,

00:21:11.740 have you noticed that black people on the right don't abuse black people on the left,

00:21:16.440 but black people on the left abuse black people on the right?

00:21:18.800 You know what I mean?

00:21:19.660 We're not black enough.

00:21:20.680 We're the wrong kind of black.

00:21:22.660 We're coconuts.

00:21:23.500 We've given them as slaves.

00:21:25.600 And there was a bit of a revelation in the room and then everybody's testing it,

00:21:29.280 tried to prove it, tried to find people doing it and all the rest of that.

00:21:32.000 And I said, look, it's the kind of really insidious, powerful racism

00:21:36.780 that makes black people useful idiots.

00:21:39.200 Because what white people can do,

00:21:40.660 they can stop us as a group of people having any kind of decent conversation, right?

00:21:44.740 Because they can get you to tell me that I'm the wrong kind of black or I'm not black.

00:21:49.580 I don't understand what it is to be black, right?

00:21:51.620 What black people should be able to do is what white people do.

00:21:54.460 Russians, Spanish, I don't know, Italians, everybody does.

00:21:57.500 They'll have a conversation about themselves and about anybody else

00:22:00.720 without the influence of other people.

00:22:04.120 And having that conversation, that is an ongoing cross to bear.

00:22:09.320 It's been, it's left a real big footprint in my public and political life

00:22:20.240 because what it also means is,

00:22:22.340 it means that white people on the left feel that they can abuse you as well.

00:22:25.420 So I remember I had a Labour MP call me a token ghetto boy.

00:22:30.660 Yeah, imagine for a second, anybody watching this, right,

00:22:33.740 who understands, you know, Conservative Labour politics

00:22:37.000 or maybe Republican and Democrat politics.

00:22:41.120 Imagine a Republican or a Conservative MP, Senator, whatever, said those words.

00:22:46.740 People would be calling for their head, yeah?

00:22:49.080 She said it's fine.

00:22:50.220 But white's really, really disgraceful.

00:22:53.560 Because what it says to young people, black or otherwise,

00:22:57.700 in the public sphere is it says,

00:23:00.960 if you're black, yeah, don't you dare go towards the right.

00:23:07.020 If you go towards right, we will separate you

00:23:09.260 from the people you love and care for.

00:23:12.140 So what it then means, if you're black,

00:23:13.900 it's much easier to just keep to yourself,

00:23:16.680 not expels any of you,

00:23:17.840 and it cuts black people off from half

00:23:21.360 of the sort of political theory and belief systems in the world.

00:23:25.520 And I'm one of those people who think no one system has it all right.

00:23:30.400 So therefore, you need to scrutinise them all to cherry pick.

00:23:32.540 And they're cutting you off from half.

00:23:34.000 They don't have the right to decide how you think.

00:23:36.720 That is terrible.

00:23:37.880 Yeah.

00:23:38.060 Absolutely terrible.

00:23:38.820 I agree completely.

00:23:40.400 And Sean, it's funny you were talking right at the beginning

00:23:45.340 about things that you don't often hear politicians talk so much about,

00:23:48.560 which is Britain's a great country that you're proud of and you like and so on.

00:23:53.020 And I feel the same.

00:23:54.120 First generation immigrant.

00:23:55.500 I love this place.

00:23:56.280 I think it's great in many ways.

00:23:58.260 And at the same time,

00:23:59.300 we do have a lot of problems at the moment too.

00:24:02.440 So how do we make sure that we are fulfilling

00:24:07.460 on our potential as a country?

00:24:09.740 I think the big sweep of it is to,

00:24:13.800 in the first place, like ourselves.

00:24:15.260 My problem with the public discourse of the left now

00:24:18.020 is all based on the fact that we're idiots.

00:24:20.420 Yeah.

00:24:20.640 The British goings on, historical, current and future, we're all idiots.

00:24:25.940 I remember someone telling me that we can't have a British Bill of Rights.

00:24:28.160 We can't leave the ECR and all the rest of it.

00:24:30.840 And I had to point out to them,

00:24:32.520 you see, when the Europeans wanted to do something around human rights,

00:24:36.080 who did they call?

00:24:37.480 They called us.

00:24:38.140 They literally called British lawyers.

00:24:40.120 We literally invented human rights.

00:24:41.840 Now, you can tell me we may have had the biggest need in the world

00:24:44.560 to invent human rights,

00:24:45.780 but the point is we did.

00:24:46.900 And they trusted us to write that bill.

00:24:49.700 It was largely done by British judges and lawyers.

00:24:52.520 We did it.

00:24:53.500 So the idea that we have somehow forgotten that

00:24:56.640 and we won't know what to do when we're on our own is utter nonsense.

00:25:00.120 Actually, there's a good chance we'll do a much better job.

00:25:03.280 Actually, that's actually what will happen

00:25:04.760 because we'll have much less influence.

00:25:07.040 And all the conversations we're having about representation of women,

00:25:11.280 gender representation, excuse me, LGBT, race, and that,

00:25:16.620 we are basically the only people in the world having that conversation.

00:25:19.200 There is no one in Korea or Japan or even places like Italy or France.

00:25:25.220 They're not doing the hand-wringing we are.

00:25:27.480 And what that shows you is it's a live issue for us.

00:25:30.060 It probably always will be a live issue for us,

00:25:31.620 but we do the work.

00:25:33.200 We make the progress.

00:25:34.780 And that's just one arena.

00:25:36.100 And I say that because we have to believe a little bit more in ourselves.

00:25:39.720 If you look at the nations in the world like Singapore or Japan who are coming,

00:25:44.860 even the French to a certain degree, they think they're right.

00:25:47.780 They largely like each other.

00:25:50.000 French people think France is great.

00:25:52.800 They'll talk about French histories if it's great.

00:25:55.180 We need to step back and look at our history.

00:25:58.160 And our history is checkered, but no more checkered than anybody else's.

00:26:01.540 There is no nation on this wall that has more than a fiver in its wallet,

00:26:07.520 right, that doesn't have things that you could point to.

00:26:10.180 I'm not saying we avoid them.

00:26:11.440 I'm not saying we pretend they're not there.

00:26:13.040 But it's not a reason to suggest that we're not of no value.

00:26:17.120 And arguably, we've recovered at the greatest speed and have less of a distance to go.

00:26:23.560 And I think you've got to start there.

00:26:25.580 We like us.

00:26:26.580 Because if you don't like yourself, it's hard to do anything positive going forward.

00:26:30.440 And the other thing is, just trust the system.

00:26:32.440 And I go back to a statement I made early on.

00:26:35.640 The greatest thing about this country is our civil organisations.

00:26:39.680 Yeah?

00:26:39.940 Let them test it.

00:26:41.060 Let them go around.

00:26:42.040 And yes, we all hate politicians and we think parliament's nonsense and the rest of that.

00:26:45.680 But actually, our system is definitely the best in the world.

00:26:48.280 And the one very, very important thing about our adversarial system, all ideas are tested.

00:26:58.320 If you're in China and you're high enough up the political scale, you have an idea.

00:27:02.240 That's it.

00:27:03.100 Yeah.

00:27:03.420 Here, even if you're the prime minister, it gets tested.

00:27:07.840 And if you look back at our history, it's probably why we've made less lurching mistakes.

00:27:12.440 There's been less self-harm of this country than most because our ideas are tested.

00:27:16.820 And sometimes I see people on the left who want to shut down the debate, you know, push people out.

00:27:21.580 And I point them out.

00:27:22.440 If we did that as a tradition, you wouldn't exist.

00:27:25.960 Because largely this country has been conservative for hundreds and hundreds of years.

00:27:29.840 And they didn't push out the more sort of left-wing socialist debate.

00:27:35.600 They had it.

00:27:36.240 And that's why you exist.

00:27:37.660 And that's why this country is strong.

00:27:39.200 So if you push them out, what's going to happen?

00:27:43.600 What is going to happen?

00:27:44.420 And you show me any individual, any philosophy, any nation, or any organization that's been right about everything.

00:27:52.800 And I'll show you a lie.

00:27:54.940 Hey, Francis.

00:27:56.020 Do you like locals?

00:27:57.440 I live in London, mate.

00:27:58.760 So obviously not.

00:28:00.040 The only pleasure I get from the locals is when we share an intimate moment as we watch a Japanese tourist get trapped in a tube door.

00:28:08.080 Oh, that is good.

00:28:10.100 But I wasn't talking about the locals.

00:28:12.580 I was talking about our community on locals.

00:28:15.620 You mean the one where you get phenomenal behind-the-scenes content when you get to ask incredible guests like Jordan Peterson, Brett Weinstein, Bill Burr, Sam Harris, Adam Carolla, Heather Hying, and others your questions?

00:28:35.520 Not just that, you can get supporter-only benefits like trigonometry mugs, monthly calls with other top supporters, and even a regular meal with me and Francis.

00:28:45.100 You also get phenomenal behind-the-scenes footage of our trip to America, where we met a whole host of incredible guests and gave ourselves terminal indigestion.

00:28:57.140 We're also starting to do monthly giveaways for locals only.

00:29:00.460 The first one will be signed copies of Andrew Doyle's new book.

00:29:03.640 Plus, you get access to an incredible community of like-minded people who share memes, have fun conversations, and most importantly, you get to make new friends.

00:29:16.380 You can support us with as little as $7 or about £5 a month, or give us more for the higher-tier benefits.

00:29:23.120 Go to trigonometry.locals.com.

00:29:26.000 Go to trigonometry.locals.com and support the show.

00:29:30.780 Well, I agree with you completely, and as you know, you've read a little bit of my book, which we were talking about, and that's kind of my message to people here as well.

00:29:39.180 We've got to remember, we're good people.

00:29:41.660 We've done some bad—our ancestors did some bad things, like everybody else's ancestors.

00:29:46.240 But if we want to have a positive vision of our country, we're going to have to believe in ourselves, for sure.

00:29:51.700 I think that's really important, and it's great to hear you say it.

00:29:54.160 And at the same time, we've obviously got a lot of practical problems happening right now.

00:30:00.300 We've got—our national debt is greater than our GDP at a time when the government is about to give away people more money to help them with what is a legitimate crisis, you know, in terms of the cost of living and all of that.

00:30:14.360 How do you see this playing out now, particularly since 2008, when we've printed so much money, we had record low interest rates, we've got a massive national debt.

00:30:26.160 Now we're having to deal with the war in Ukraine, the cost of living, all of that.

00:30:31.400 How does Liz Truss survive, let alone thrive?

00:30:35.840 There's a couple of things I'd say.

00:30:38.000 I think the world is up for—is in line for a big correction.

00:30:42.880 Our sort of historic roundabout 5% interest rate was workable.

00:30:48.460 It was an interest rate that came from less debt, more interaction.

00:30:53.500 People—and when I say people, I mean nations, the planet—spent what it had.

00:30:58.920 Moved to the fiat system, great amounts of debt, finance, all the rest of that, and that just marching on.

00:31:05.840 It can't—

00:31:07.100 It's not sustainable.

00:31:08.020 Yeah, it's not sustainable.

00:31:08.920 And it's—I remember talking to a kid at the bus stop and trying to explain to him about debt and what we're doing and elements of the environment.

00:31:17.020 And I said, look, it's basically this.

00:31:19.320 You're on a chocolate desert island and you have a choice.

00:31:22.700 You can eat all the chocolate, not be hungry, but drown.

00:31:26.800 Or you can be hungry, but still have the chocolate to stand on.

00:31:29.680 There's a balance here.

00:31:31.300 There's a balance here.

00:31:32.160 And I think we may have gone far as a planet, not just as a nation, too far one way.

00:31:39.720 When you bring it down to the sort of nation level, we are in as good a condition as anybody to deal with it.

00:31:48.800 I'd argue if you ranked the world, we'd be in the top sort of 5%, 10% to deal with the problem.

00:31:54.120 It's going to be painful, but there's some big steps you can say, please stop printing money.

00:31:58.080 The printing of money, I mean, I've never quite—I'm never quite sure who gets that money because I didn't get any of it.

00:32:07.740 Maybe if I got some of it, I'd be a little bit less against, you know, stopping.

00:32:11.380 But that's not true, though, is it, Sean?

00:32:12.800 We all got a bit of it because we all got investment, more investment than there would have been in education and health and whatever.

00:32:18.860 Like, we are just living beyond our means as a country.

00:32:21.700 I'll tell you why I don't think we got any of it, because we're living beyond our means.

00:32:26.380 So everything that we've got, effectively, you're going to have to give back.

00:32:29.380 Well, our children were, yeah.

00:32:31.140 One of the experiences of my life, for a little while, I had bailiffs.

00:32:35.760 I owed money to people.

00:32:37.700 And somebody said to me, dude, I regret that.

00:32:40.340 And my answer is no.

00:32:41.780 And the reason I say no is because all of the debts I built up were to survive.

00:32:46.280 There was no Ferrari debt in there, as I like to call it.

00:32:48.300 There was no luxurious car.

00:32:50.460 There wasn't even a flash coat in there, right?

00:32:52.100 It was like I was unemployed for a long time.

00:32:54.360 I was homeless for a little while.

00:32:55.660 It was like, if I don't do this, I'm sunk here.

00:33:00.000 So I never regretted that debt.

00:33:01.740 I wonder, as a planet and as a country, could we say the same?

00:33:05.760 And whatever happens, my grandmother used to say this,

00:33:08.660 you're going to have to pay it back.

00:33:10.700 You're going to have to pay it back.

00:33:12.620 You're going to.

00:33:13.300 So we should always be planning our finances with that idea that it's going to have to pay it back.

00:33:18.560 And I don't wish to be political.

00:33:20.500 It's not my thing.

00:33:21.280 I have to be asked to be political.

00:33:23.300 But on the left, their response, if you see Keir Starmer's response to the cost of living crisis,

00:33:28.960 to the bill thing, is a sticking plaster.

00:33:31.400 It's going to then need to be addressed again.

00:33:34.860 I remember listening.

00:33:35.500 But it's the same with Liz Truss.

00:33:36.740 Yeah, but the difference with Liz Truss is the one functional difference that I think is important

00:33:41.500 is giving the economy, giving individuals, giving business more of their money back.

00:33:47.340 If you remember what I said at the very beginning, I believe in entrepreneurs.

00:33:53.640 Entrepreneurs make the planet in the broadest sense.

00:33:56.960 It's people who take the risk.

00:33:59.000 It's people who say, actually, I think we need rubber.

00:34:02.880 I know we could get some rubber.

00:34:03.900 It's people who say this service would be of use to people who actually put their own money in.

00:34:08.240 And by giving people back their money, we increase the propensity of people to become entrepreneurs.

00:34:14.340 From a spiritual level, we let people know that, actually, we appreciate people who take risk.

00:34:20.400 There's an economy to bother taking a risk in.

00:34:22.920 From a financial level, it's worth you doing this because you're going to get something back.

00:34:26.960 The idea that we can all have the same outcome with a different input, you might hate your boss,

00:34:36.200 but he was the one who risked the money to make your job.

00:34:38.560 It wasn't you.

00:34:39.840 You're going to have to do that.

00:34:40.300 As we explain to our staff every day.

00:34:43.000 But this is the point.

00:34:44.580 And we found, as we've done this, as you know, we have employees now,

00:34:48.520 and we are basically a small business.

00:34:50.240 This is what the show is, right?

00:34:53.940 I'm not going to lie to you.

00:34:54.920 It's not the easiest place to run a business.

00:34:56.700 But ironically, it is one of the easier places in the world,

00:35:00.920 if only because of our ability to raise finance.

00:35:03.360 But the one thing I will say, I said also in the beginning, I'm a capitalist,

00:35:07.320 but I don't believe it has all the answers.

00:35:09.140 And I try to say it like this.

00:35:12.660 Capitalism, right, works for pound coins.

00:35:15.740 Its mechanism delivers pound coins.

00:35:17.900 It's the human inside that has to make that pound coin do the right thing.

00:35:21.360 If you see what I mean.

00:35:22.340 So we see lots of businesses in the world make so much money, right,

00:35:28.400 but not involve in the profit the people who made that money, the staff.

00:35:33.120 And note that I use the word profit because you can't pay people if you don't have it.

00:35:37.640 Yeah, and one of the things that we've done a lot of is use public money to top up very poor businesses through tax credits.

00:35:44.960 Now, if you receive tax credits, and I have in the past, keep going.

00:35:48.060 I'm not suggesting we stop that.

00:35:49.220 No, but what we should be saying to people is,

00:35:51.980 you can only employ people if they actually have a viable business.

00:35:55.240 We should make that the law rather than topping it up because they don't have a viable business.

00:36:00.560 And the way to help people have a viable business is what?

00:36:02.600 Take less of their money from them.

00:36:05.180 If you're watching this now and you're a socialist, I get it.

00:36:08.360 I understand because your socialism makes you feel kind and there is elements of kindness in it.

00:36:12.940 But the unkind part of socialism is, right, the unworkable part of socialism,

00:36:17.500 the crazy part of socialism is where does the money come from?

00:36:20.960 And I remember being at a debate with a Labour MP and he and I were just on completely different ways.

00:36:27.040 Everybody knew and it was fine and he was a very decent man and we had a great chat.

00:36:31.820 But he said one of the most poignant things in the room that just made my point for me.

00:36:36.700 He said every time someone proposes a policy, it should tell us who, not only where,

00:36:42.860 who they're taking the money from.

00:36:44.700 And that's the point, isn't it?

00:36:46.200 Because what happens in our big rich Western world,

00:36:48.360 it looks like, well, you can just charge the rich.

00:36:51.380 And in many cases that might be right.

00:36:52.800 But what do they do?

00:36:53.740 They then just cut off who they employ and it does us in.

00:36:57.100 I remember speaking at a school and there was a lot of councils and stuff,

00:37:01.660 and they were all assaulting Tesco's and all the rest of that.

00:37:03.580 You know, Tesco's a big business.

00:37:04.660 They don't need me to defend them.

00:37:06.340 But I said, just one thing before you destroy Tesco's.

00:37:09.940 And they're like, what's that?

00:37:10.600 I said, they employ 300,000 people.

00:37:15.240 So you destroy one business, but how many incomes do you destroy?

00:37:18.680 I just want you to bear that in mind.

00:37:20.600 I'm not telling you Tesco's behaves ethically.

00:37:23.020 I think, particularly for small businesses,

00:37:24.880 they should pay much more quickly than their whole 90-day model.

00:37:27.880 But we are all interlinked.

00:37:31.260 And socialism often, you know, picks out a villain, pursues them,

00:37:37.580 and doesn't realise the connection that has to the rest of us.

00:37:40.820 And that for me is, I mean, it's about education.

00:37:43.900 It's about letting people know how money and finance and economies work.

00:37:48.240 Sean, you made a very profound point at the beginning of this interview

00:37:50.980 where you said, we get the politicians we deserve

00:37:54.800 because we destroy politicians who tell us the truth.

00:37:58.460 And I really agree with you.

00:37:59.620 I think you nailed it on that.

00:38:01.540 We've got this huge debt.

00:38:03.220 And the reality is, our living standards are going to have to go down

00:38:06.700 in order to pay for this debt.

00:38:08.060 That's what that means.

00:38:09.440 What politician is going to be able to tell that to the British people and survive?

00:38:14.260 None.

00:38:14.820 You can't do that.

00:38:15.520 I think it's ironic because I think the last time politics was really, really honest,

00:38:21.160 was austerity.

00:38:22.440 George Osborne basically said, if you vote for us, we're going to balance the books

00:38:26.040 and that's going to be painful.

00:38:27.420 You can vote for the other guy.

00:38:29.220 And they vote for him and Cameron.

00:38:31.380 And why that's important?

00:38:32.640 Because I really do believe in the intelligence of the swarm.

00:38:38.100 The swarm in this country, the voting public.

00:38:40.520 There is an intelligence there.

00:38:41.780 They do get it.

00:38:43.540 And I think politicians and all of us are relying on the public to understand

00:38:49.160 we've got to address this.

00:38:51.440 Ironically, I think the pandemic is helping people realise something needs to be solved.

00:38:57.220 You know, we dealt with a pandemic.

00:38:58.580 If you agree with how it was done, whatever.

00:39:00.460 But people do realise something was done.

00:39:02.680 It costs and needs to be adjusted.

00:39:05.200 And also, we need to have a conversation about what living standards are.

00:39:09.560 Because there's other things we could do.

00:39:11.200 So, for instance, if the amount of money you pay to live, food, you know, roof over your head and all the rest of that.

00:39:18.140 There's some places where a reduction in cost is so much more useful than in another place.

00:39:25.300 You know what I mean?

00:39:25.860 Like having great amounts of disposable income is nice.

00:39:28.300 And that's what people chase.

00:39:29.520 But actually having lower cost housing is probably much more important.

00:39:32.400 If someone said to me, an extra grand a month, that's fine.

00:39:35.600 As long as my housing doesn't cost me an extra £1,200 a month.

00:39:38.820 Do you know what I mean?

00:39:39.420 And I think there's things the government can do to lower the running costs of a person's life.

00:39:45.540 I mean, when I was sofa surfing, one of the great revelations for me was, this is about lowering my costs.

00:39:53.760 Like, you know what I mean?

00:39:54.220 Like making my trainers last longer.

00:39:56.520 I used to walk one way to work and all the rest of that.

00:39:58.680 I changed my shift pattern so that I could walk at night because there's just less hassle, less people, whatever.

00:40:03.540 Do you know what I mean?

00:40:04.360 All that kind of stuff.

00:40:05.320 And lowering my costs, we all know, it effectively increases what you're earning.

00:40:09.320 We might have to do that on a national scale.

00:40:11.220 And that's why I say, ironically, Boris's plan around nuclear and Liz's plan around tax for me are two of the big possibilities at repairing our standard of living as quickly as possible.

00:40:25.000 But I can't really see a version of events where it isn't painful.

00:40:27.940 And Sean, this inability to be honest with the public, is this where this counterproductive, deeply irresponsible policy of Western governments, not just in this country, but particularly somewhere like Germany,

00:40:40.540 I've been talking about this for years, man.

00:40:43.300 You can't make yourself energy dependent on your adversaries, right?

00:40:47.140 But we've done that.

00:40:48.740 We've done that in this country.

00:40:50.200 We've done that.

00:40:50.940 Germans have done it.

00:40:52.060 Lots of European countries have done it.

00:40:54.120 Why?

00:40:54.400 Why?

00:40:55.840 Why?

00:40:56.200 Why have these countries, our Western countries, made themselves dependent on Russia?

00:41:01.840 Why are we not energy sufficient?

00:41:04.320 We're shipping factories and production to China where they emit all the same carbon dioxide.

00:41:09.140 They just do it over there and we can say we're green.

00:41:12.360 But look, there's two.

00:41:14.240 One is the broader piece of liberal arrogance.

00:41:18.000 So liberals believe, you know, whoever these people are, 10 minutes with us and they'll be liberals too.

00:41:23.160 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:41:23.960 You know, we'll just tell them, but you're wrong.

00:41:26.260 You're wrong.

00:41:27.060 You know, starting a war and taking territory doesn't work.

00:41:30.440 It upsets people.

00:41:31.200 Stop it.

00:41:31.620 Stop it.

00:41:32.020 And we believe they'll think, oh, we were wrong all along.

00:41:34.300 Why don't we do it?

00:41:34.840 That's the real thing.

00:41:36.240 You often hear in politics, we should be an example.

00:41:39.500 We should be leading the way.

00:41:40.700 I really want to say to people, right, who are liberals, nobody in Russia or anywhere else in the world gives monkeys about what we do.

00:41:48.900 We could be as green as we like.

00:41:50.560 They're looking at the bottom line.

00:41:51.540 They do not care what we do.

00:41:54.280 They don't.

00:41:54.840 They might care about the green issues, but they don't care how we get there.

00:41:57.380 They're going to get there their own way.

00:41:58.780 Simple as that.

00:42:00.140 And the other piece was greed.

00:42:02.620 So what people wanted to do was lower the cost of running their country, ship out some of the pain so they could keep going back to their populace and say, look how wonderful we are.

00:42:11.180 We're keeping the cost of living down and we're making you green and not really tell the truth.

00:42:17.180 You see it with some of the Nordic nations swapping to geopower and have electric cars all over the place.

00:42:23.920 But they did that through their oil money.

00:42:25.640 All the money they have from their sovereign wealth fund was made in oil and they made themselves green.

00:42:30.580 And there is a hypocrisy there.

00:42:32.460 And, you know, that self-congratulately liberal pat on the back means that they won't acknowledge something that's going on.

00:42:40.800 And to make yourself energy dependent is to make the people of your country poor.

00:42:47.620 Governments of all stripes should have spent more time building nuclear and wind and water.

00:42:54.640 And I want to be clear to everyone, if you're watching this and you're green, right, I want to be very clear in the interim.

00:43:00.460 And that means the next 30 to 50 years, we cannot have green power without nuclear.

00:43:05.860 Because when there's no wind and when everybody turns their kettle on because EastEnders is having a break, right, yeah, solar and wind won't cover that.

00:43:15.680 Nuclear power, you turn it up.

00:43:17.020 And if somebody's telling you that nuclear power is dirty, ask them what are we going to do with all the batteries and all the mining from electric cars and solar power?

00:43:28.760 Because solar power, wind power will need some kind of storage.

00:43:31.140 That means batteries.

00:43:31.980 That means some of the most horrific chemicals we have on the planet.

00:43:35.460 And when we are producing 20 and 30 million battery powered vehicles a year, what are we going to do with all that waste?

00:43:41.700 And it changes how you look at nuclear power.

00:43:45.260 In the future, I believe we can get way, way, way down the line on fully renewable power.

00:43:52.560 But the future is a long way away.

00:43:55.320 And in the meantime, you have a lot of very poor people that you have to keep warm and clothed.

00:44:00.660 Now, if you're telling me your green credentials are worth more than their immediate comfort, I think you need to tell them that as well.

00:44:08.780 It's a very good point.

00:44:10.260 So we're looking and we're seeing an energy crisis.

00:44:13.460 And these bills that are coming out are absolutely horrendous just to look at.

00:44:19.260 We had Nigel Farage in a few months ago, just before the Ukraine war.

00:44:23.440 And he made the point, he said, I don't think people understand what is going to happen to them.

00:44:27.140 I really don't.

00:44:28.040 And it's true.

00:44:29.700 So who's to blame for that, Sean, in your opinion, for what we're seeing now?

00:44:34.260 I'd say the political firmament in general across all of Europe, Putin has always been, for want of a better word, the enemy.

00:44:44.880 It's not like last week he lost his temper and changed his mode of behaviour.

00:44:48.100 He's been like that for a while.

00:44:49.120 And I'm not sure why they thought it'd be any different.

00:44:53.700 You know, it's like when I was a youth worker, I dealt with a lot of gangs and it'd be like one gang saying to another gang, here, you have our weapons.

00:45:02.140 You hold our weapons and then let's negotiate.

00:45:04.420 Well, they have all the aces and they have, and what's important is they have a very fundamental ace, a very powerful ace.

00:45:12.800 And this idea that the rest of the world will just hang back while we deal with that.

00:45:18.880 No, if we don't buy that stuff, fine, somebody else will buy it.

00:45:22.000 So Putin's not poor because somebody else is buying that gear.

00:45:24.900 And if you run another country, I remember somebody saying to me, imagine having 145 million mouths to feed.

00:45:31.220 Of course you're going to buy Putin's gas.

00:45:32.740 Who cares what they think in Westminster or what they think it isn't?

00:45:36.140 Nobody cares because you're looking at 145 million people you need to feed.

00:45:40.320 And that's what we're seeing now.

00:45:41.980 And I think in the Western world, in Europe in particular, you know, from the Second World War to now, we felt like we'd answered the international system of behaviour.

00:45:53.660 We felt like we were so financially and militarily powerful that everybody would just do this as we said.

00:45:59.880 And in our very honest way, we were also sticking to the rules.

00:46:04.500 It's not like we're saying you do that and we didn't.

00:46:06.340 We're all going to stick to the rules.

00:46:07.600 No, we're not.

00:46:08.620 It doesn't work like that.

00:46:09.880 The human condition doesn't do that.

00:46:11.920 And what Westerners had started to do is assume that people elsewhere in the world felt the same about the outcome, felt the same about the future.

00:46:21.480 And I remember when they asked the Chinese, it's either the interior minister or the energy minister or something like that, you know, about his vision zero for 2050 and all the rest of that.

00:46:33.920 And he just turned around and said, you had 100 years of the industrial revolution.

00:46:37.480 It's our turn.

00:46:38.260 And no matter how much warm, sweet words come out of China, no matter how much they're changing, because they're changing at quite a pace, yeah, that's their driving force.

00:46:48.480 They're going to have their 100 years of getting rich.

00:46:50.480 Now, if they can do that and be green, fine.

00:46:52.100 But if they can't for them, fine as well.

00:46:54.120 And we see that.

00:46:55.320 I remember telling a green activist who was saying the government's terrible.

00:46:57.960 I said two things.

00:46:59.680 This conservative government has spent more on green relatively than any other European government.

00:47:04.360 Our CO2 output is more than, is less than half of what Germany's is, right?

00:47:09.860 So I don't agree with that.

00:47:11.140 And secondly, we're less than 1% of the world's CO2 output.

00:47:17.240 If we turned off everything in Britain yesterday, it would make no difference.

00:47:23.600 And then she said that classic thing of, but we should be leading the way.

00:47:27.240 I said, they don't care what we're doing.

00:47:30.060 Some of them are doing, you know, on a short, pure cash basis, are doing better than we do.

00:47:34.580 China is spending more on it, but obviously they've got more to do, yeah.

00:47:38.120 The Americans probably as well.

00:47:39.460 But at no point in any meeting of any significance have they said to themselves, what are they doing in this?

00:47:45.200 They don't care.

00:47:47.000 They don't care.

00:47:47.540 And unless people understand that we have to secure the poor people where we are, use some of our financial might to help the poor people elsewhere in the world, drive the conversation without the idea that people are going to follow us.

00:48:03.560 Because that, to other people, also feels like colonialism.

00:48:06.940 We will make no decent impact for the world.

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00:48:31.980 The thing is, Sean, is that the thing that I'm worried about is that we just keep kicking this can down the road, though, don't we?

00:48:48.660 That's the problem.

00:48:50.040 We're continuing to kick it down the road, and nobody wants to have the very difficult conversation.

00:48:56.560 You're completely right.

00:48:58.160 But what I will say, the history of this country needs must.

00:49:01.040 We will reach a point where we need to do it, and we will do it.

00:49:06.060 And I spoke to a group of kids at a bus stop, and this boy was telling me about, yeah, but, like, the world's in a mad state, it's all over, bruv, this, that, and the other.

00:49:13.620 And I was like, let me tell you something.

00:49:15.260 I want to give you a scenario.

00:49:16.260 He said, go on then.

00:49:16.720 I said, what do you think it felt like just before the start of the Second World War?

00:49:21.640 So not only did they think the world was over, they then had a war, a world war, and quite frankly, it was over.

00:49:28.700 He said, yeah, what's happening?

00:49:29.960 He said, but they recovered.

00:49:31.400 In fact, they recovered to a spectacular level.

00:49:34.380 If you'd said to the people who went through the Second World War that we as a nation, their grandchildren, their great-grandchildren would be in the condition they're in now, they wouldn't have believed you.

00:49:44.260 The point being this, the human spirit is resilient.

00:49:49.360 Needs must will act when we want to act.

00:49:51.440 The one thing where the Green Lobby are correct, yeah, we've got to start having the conversations and actions quickly.

00:49:58.480 And I think those things will happen.

00:49:59.980 But the problem is, because we punish politicians who tell us the truth, because we have a lot of the press are all sort of in extreme boxes.

00:50:09.380 So you're a guardian reader and everybody's evil is on the right and we must sell our children and make the world green or you're on the right.

00:50:16.800 These people are stupid and we should frack and nuclear and everything right here, right now.

00:50:21.200 Because we can't have nuanced, complicated and developmental and resolved conversations in the middle, that's what's slowing us down.

00:50:31.560 And the other thing as well, how finance, everything has become financial.

00:50:36.980 So my reverence for entrepreneurs comes from the fact that if you go back 50, 80, 100, 150 years, entrepreneurs produced things and employed people.

00:50:50.520 And I don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the service economy is ridiculous, but what we've done with the service economy is made everything about the end product, the finance, the profit.

00:50:58.260 And when you build a business, it has a much bigger social footprint than when you just finance, just finance.

00:51:06.560 And what finance did, finance in the Western world, particularly in this country, has been so successful, it sucked a lot of the talent.

00:51:12.880 So there's people in finance now who in a century gone by would have been an engineer, would have been a doctor, but now they're in finance because they fought well.

00:51:22.760 Well, most of the astrophysicists that we produce end up going into the city.

00:51:26.180 And that's a shame because it means they're not answering some of the other big problems that we as a country and we as a world face.

00:51:33.720 And do you think that is also part of the problem, Sean, in that this is my opinion, and tell me what you think.

00:51:41.280 I'd say that our calibre of politicians are some of the weakest I've ever seen in my 40 years on this planet.

00:51:48.000 So if you think about the Thatchers, if you think about the Churchills, if you think about the former big beast of politics.

00:51:55.280 Well, even Blair and Brown seem gigantic compared to what we've got now.

00:51:58.900 But the reason, there's two things I'd say.

00:52:01.400 I think every generation laments the people it's stuck with.

00:52:04.940 Like Churchill, it doesn't matter where you are, Churchill did massive things right, massive things wrong, but he was massive for the country.

00:52:12.740 At the time, they treat him like he's an idiot.

00:52:15.520 I mean, they got rid of him once.

00:52:16.460 You know what I mean?

00:52:18.180 So nobody loves the politicians they have, you know, and that's just the human nature.

00:52:23.340 I think the other thing is, well, often a big problem gives you a big hero.

00:52:28.380 If your biggest problem is what colour is your new car, you're not a hero in your home.

00:52:32.920 If your biggest problem is you're poor and you get that job, you're a hero.

00:52:36.320 And you can scale that up, can't you?

00:52:38.940 So I think actually going forward, we're probably likely to see more substantial politicians because we have more substantial issues to deal with.

00:52:50.620 Love Boris or hate Boris.

00:52:52.040 His response to the Ukraine was a big deal.

00:52:54.400 It was a big deal.

00:52:55.540 And even if you don't believe it, the people of Ukraine believe it, which makes it real.

00:52:59.300 I mean, it's a big deal.

00:53:03.860 So we'll see.

00:53:05.420 And I think the hope for Liz is that she makes enough of a change in the personnel for something different to happen.

00:53:14.680 I think sometimes the immediate history of the Conservative Party has been apologising for not being left-wing enough.

00:53:22.640 Whereas Liz seems like she's going to be a Conservative and convince you that you should join in or not.

00:53:29.240 It's a different, it feels like a different paradigm.

00:53:31.900 Sean, you mentioned Ukraine.

00:53:33.180 Do you think that was a wake-up call that the West needed to realise this airy-fairy world that you were talking about, how everyone's going to...

00:53:41.640 No, I don't think it was a wake-up call because I haven't woken up.

00:53:44.360 You are, but most people were not.

00:53:46.500 No, no, no.

00:53:47.320 I want to be very clear.

00:53:48.300 It's not the wake-up call that the West needed because they didn't respond to it.

00:53:52.800 Absolutely, it's a wake-up call.

00:53:54.400 But they needed to front Putin up properly.

00:53:58.960 You don't think we've done enough?

00:54:00.440 No.

00:54:01.560 Well, Putin's still going.

00:54:04.240 He needs...

00:54:04.880 Look, the Putin thing for me is powerful because Putin...

00:54:09.120 Treating Putin like he's some crazy moron is ridiculous.

00:54:12.380 He's been looking in this direction for a long time.

00:54:15.700 Some of the failing has been on our part.

00:54:17.360 We've kind of antagonised him, man.

00:54:18.480 He said, don't come east.

00:54:19.420 We promise not to come east and then we go east.

00:54:21.420 So he responds...

00:54:22.060 I mean, in his mind, that's a huge justification for his behaviour.

00:54:26.620 I'd argue he'd have probably done it anyway.

00:54:28.060 But that's...

00:54:28.920 He'd be sitting in meetings and said, but you said you weren't going to come east.

00:54:32.420 What am I to do?

00:54:33.860 So away he goes.

00:54:36.380 And I...

00:54:38.400 Putin was asked, how would he defeat the West?

00:54:41.380 Now, if Putin had said, I don't want to defeat the West.

00:54:44.440 That's ridiculous.

00:54:45.600 Then our reaction would be fine.

00:54:48.060 But he said, oh, no.

00:54:49.100 He didn't say that.

00:54:49.620 He said, I don't need to defeat the West.

00:54:51.300 They'll defeat themselves.

00:54:52.560 And what that comment shows you is interested in the West being defeated.

00:54:55.880 So are China and other places in the world.

00:55:00.180 And our response has made that...

00:55:03.580 It's kept that issue live.

00:55:05.240 It's kept it going.

00:55:06.340 It's made it real, if you see what I mean.

00:55:09.000 And Putin doing what he's doing in the way in which he's doing,

00:55:12.380 if he gets the outcome that he wants, will strengthen his position.

00:55:15.220 And clearly, we want to weaken his position.

00:55:17.960 And we'll have to see.

00:55:18.400 And then, of course, there's the ripple effect.

00:55:21.040 If you're China, you're probably thinking, let me see how they respond.

00:55:26.460 If there's a strong response, I might have to take my foot off the gas.

00:55:29.520 If there's a weak response, I'll charge straight through.

00:55:32.160 The belt and brace thing, what it's called, that China are doing now.

00:55:36.640 I mean, that...

00:55:37.240 Belt and road.

00:55:37.660 Belt and road, excuse me.

00:55:39.000 That is a really aggressive move.

00:55:41.220 I mean, short of a military attack, that's the single most aggressive thing you can do.

00:55:47.240 I'll just pause you right there.

00:55:48.260 Could you just explain to people who don't know about it what it is and also why it's so aggressive?

00:55:53.580 So China have taken much of their huge financial power

00:55:57.620 and they've decided to connect countries to China,

00:56:01.860 which gives them control over those countries financially.

00:56:04.980 And let's be clear, some of the contracts they're signing with countries in Africa,

00:56:09.060 countries in the West Indies, Sri Lanka, all these countries tie them,

00:56:13.540 tie those countries to China and Chinese control.

00:56:16.580 I mean, there's parts of the world where they're deliberately trying to push out

00:56:20.540 Western nations and block them in or circle us in.

00:56:24.460 Half the reason they haven't been, they haven't completed that

00:56:27.240 is because nations like India have now had to sort of push back

00:56:30.380 because India is a huge superpower in its own right

00:56:32.500 and simply can't accept that.

00:56:34.180 But the West effectively financed that.

00:56:37.400 We owe tons of money to China where we should have probably built

00:56:41.380 that financial partnership elsewhere in the world

00:56:44.260 with people who are much more aligned with our thinking,

00:56:47.220 who are much less out to dominate the world.

00:56:50.000 I think the difference between India and China, say,

00:56:52.680 India want to be a big, powerful country.

00:56:54.660 They don't want to be your boss.

00:56:56.120 China wants to be your boss.

00:56:57.500 It's a very different thing.

00:56:58.760 And just one tiny example.

00:57:01.800 So China are building railways in the world, right?

00:57:05.000 And if you're one of those smaller nations that's taken on Chinese finance,

00:57:08.060 they've financed you, signed you up to an expensive deal.

00:57:10.980 But here's the real thing that shows you where China's headspace are.

00:57:14.660 They've made the gauge of the railways unique.

00:57:18.920 So when you renew your stock, you have to go back to China.

00:57:23.680 And what they're trying to do quite successfully, to my mind,

00:57:26.760 is build dependency on them.

00:57:28.820 And that kind of international control will mean they can do all kinds of things.

00:57:32.860 It's why Taiwan is constantly worried about its status,

00:57:37.080 because China is showing that it's on the front foot.

00:57:39.800 And then you look at things like the development of supersonic weapons,

00:57:43.300 nuclear weapons, the size of their navy.

00:57:45.740 They are, I'd argue, they're being aggressive now,

00:57:48.800 but they're certainly giving themselves the ability to be far more aggressive in the future.

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00:59:02.680 Sean, let's come back to Ukraine though

00:59:04.480 because you said we should have fronted up to Putin more in the past.

00:59:08.300 And look, in 2014, the game was very clear.

00:59:10.440 Anyone who was paying attention would have known

00:59:12.580 this was going to happen later

00:59:14.040 because he was just testing the waters in 2014, right?

00:59:17.320 But what about now?

00:59:18.280 Are we doing everything we should be?

00:59:19.700 Are we doing too much, too little?

00:59:21.980 I think we're doing too little.

00:59:24.240 I think we're basically...

00:59:26.600 If you look at Russian history,

00:59:28.640 any war that Russia has won has been for attrition.

00:59:32.780 And the longer we're just where we are, right,

00:59:36.460 Putin wins and he knows that.

00:59:37.880 He is much more invested in winning that

00:59:40.580 than we are in not losing, if you see what I mean.

00:59:43.880 We have to show that we're prepared to really push back.

00:59:46.980 By energy dependency of some of the major European powers,

00:59:50.500 France and particularly Germany,

00:59:52.020 means that we just can't.

00:59:53.020 We have lost before the shooting started in some sense.

01:00:00.020 We'd have to be really brave to win anyway.

01:00:03.320 And that's why I say to people who are like,

01:00:07.280 you know, real sort of liberal softies, yeah?

01:00:10.760 They don't think like us.

01:00:12.740 They're not like you.

01:00:14.060 They don't just want everybody to get on and have a lovely time.

01:00:16.560 They want control.

01:00:17.960 And whatever they're going to do with the control,

01:00:20.000 who knows?

01:00:20.820 But they want control.

01:00:22.860 And ignoring them,

01:00:25.340 assuming that they'll stop,

01:00:27.460 is giving them that control.

01:00:28.900 Well, as a Russian,

01:00:30.240 I can tell you that's 100% true.

01:00:32.140 And by the way,

01:00:32.700 it's probably true of almost everybody in the world

01:00:34.540 outside the Anglosphere, pretty much.

01:00:37.560 Because in the Anglosphere,

01:00:38.660 we have an agreement.

01:00:40.620 We're comfortable with our agreement.

01:00:41.940 And that's fine.

01:00:43.740 The mind boggles as to why we think everybody else

01:00:46.420 will be comfortable with our agreement.

01:00:48.700 It's just, I don't get it.

01:00:51.240 Sean, you've got this lovely down-to-earth manner about you.

01:00:54.700 And I think it comes from, you know,

01:00:57.380 the way you grew up,

01:00:58.880 your experiences working with gangs.

01:01:02.280 What did you learn when you were working with gangs?

01:01:05.520 Because when most people think of gangs,

01:01:08.020 they think of, you know,

01:01:09.240 I mean, you could say older people,

01:01:10.580 West Side Story,

01:01:11.340 but it's a media image of a gang.

01:01:14.540 It's not actually what a gang is like.

01:01:17.880 So what I'm going to,

01:01:20.000 I think how I'm going to answer this

01:01:21.080 is the emotional piece.

01:01:22.440 And I'll try to give an example.

01:01:24.000 Be clear, a gang is a business.

01:01:26.500 Yeah, it's a business.

01:01:27.920 The currency is money.

01:01:29.680 The difference is psychological bullying.

01:01:33.180 Yeah, and high levels of physical risk.

01:01:36.200 Yeah.

01:01:36.840 I remember speaking to the police minister.

01:01:38.780 He's not the police minister now.

01:01:39.840 I kicked my house.

01:01:40.580 He's moved on.

01:01:42.040 But when I realised that he would be good,

01:01:45.660 he started to get it,

01:01:47.220 is when he said to me,

01:01:48.760 Sean, what I'm planning to do

01:01:49.840 is disrupt the business of,

01:01:52.360 he used the words business model of this gang.

01:01:54.960 We were talking about particular gangs in London.

01:01:56.700 And I said to him,

01:01:57.480 now you're talking.

01:01:58.900 Yeah.

01:01:58.980 Because what we've been focusing on is the crime.

01:02:02.140 That is now you stop a gang.

01:02:03.700 Gangs work because they make money.

01:02:06.180 You know, I remember talking to a kid

01:02:07.900 who's trying to explain to everyone

01:02:09.620 about recruitment to the gang.

01:02:12.080 He said, you've got these elders

01:02:13.060 who recruit youngers.

01:02:15.480 And they were like, really?

01:02:16.700 You know, is it because your family's involved?

01:02:18.720 He said, no, that's their job.

01:02:21.000 And he said, what do you mean?

01:02:21.580 And I said, look,

01:02:22.800 people who run gangs

01:02:23.960 find young, attractive people.

01:02:28.180 Pay them to go and find

01:02:30.120 young, vulnerable people

01:02:31.980 to be foot soldiers.

01:02:34.620 And they were like, but Sean, that's...

01:02:36.480 I said, listen,

01:02:37.320 short of writing a job description,

01:02:38.760 that's exactly what they're doing.

01:02:40.100 They're driving around in their cars

01:02:41.340 and they think, that kid's good looking.

01:02:43.320 He's got the gift of the gab.

01:02:44.880 If I give him a grand a month,

01:02:46.640 he can make me 10 grand a month.

01:02:48.460 It's pure business.

01:02:49.200 And when you are in and around gangs

01:02:52.100 for a bit,

01:02:52.980 some people in the gang understand that.

01:02:56.040 They tend to be the sharper ones

01:02:57.060 and tend to rise.

01:02:58.100 And the other ones are just there

01:02:59.220 for poor emotional reasons.

01:03:00.720 It can sometimes be dangerous

01:03:02.000 not to join your local gang.

01:03:03.580 I was asked to come and speak to a boy

01:03:05.500 in Croydon who had got involved

01:03:08.400 in a life incident.

01:03:09.940 Crushing at school,

01:03:10.820 really good at school,

01:03:11.580 never had no plea.

01:03:12.160 And they were like, what happened?

01:03:14.180 So I went to speak to him

01:03:15.340 and I was like,

01:03:16.820 this is a real change in your behaviour.

01:03:18.060 He's like, Sean, bruv,

01:03:19.500 it's the only way to make sure

01:03:20.800 they leave me alone.

01:03:22.680 I said, well, like, what,

01:03:23.800 does your local gang have beef or something?

01:03:25.260 He said, no, it's not a beef thing.

01:03:26.720 It's not like I'm going out

01:03:27.680 and other kids are seeing me

01:03:29.040 from an estate and saying,

01:03:30.120 where are we, let's get him.

01:03:31.340 It's the kids on my estate.

01:03:32.980 They're basically saying,

01:03:33.700 you're with us or you're against us.

01:03:34.960 So it was like much less

01:03:37.420 physically dangerous

01:03:38.500 to be with them.

01:03:39.380 And people need to understand

01:03:41.180 the complexity

01:03:41.860 and quite frankly,

01:03:43.680 the sophistication of gangs.

01:03:47.840 And when you understand

01:03:48.920 that they're human-driven organisations

01:03:52.080 in the same way

01:03:52.880 that Google or Apple is,

01:03:54.520 yeah,

01:03:54.800 it helps you understand why.

01:03:56.880 Some people will always concentrate

01:03:58.160 on the emotional piece,

01:03:59.140 which is very big.

01:04:00.200 You know, they'll say

01:04:00.760 because it gives you membership

01:04:01.620 of something bigger than you,

01:04:02.740 and all of that's true.

01:04:04.140 But you need to look

01:04:04.980 at the whole spread of gang.

01:04:07.100 And I'll tell you a small story.

01:04:09.380 I was with David Cameron once

01:04:10.440 and we were going to a meeting.

01:04:11.720 And I don't want to give the impression

01:04:12.620 I hung around with them.

01:04:13.580 I didn't.

01:04:14.460 You know, when I worked with PM,

01:04:15.580 you could go like months

01:04:16.460 without seeing him, like months.

01:04:17.820 But we went to a meeting

01:04:18.580 and he sort of asked for a briefing

01:04:19.440 what's going on.

01:04:20.300 And we're going to the treasury

01:04:21.000 and I said, like,

01:04:21.460 we're going to get jumped here.

01:04:24.520 He said, why do you say that, Sean?

01:04:26.000 I said, because, you know,

01:04:27.340 when I used to do UFO,

01:04:28.160 I used to do gangs, you see.

01:04:29.040 I said, when people are going to jump,

01:04:30.220 you don't really look you in the eye.

01:04:31.720 And these dudes are not looking

01:04:32.960 at us in the eye.

01:04:33.580 And you're the PM, like,

01:04:34.900 they're looking the eye.

01:04:36.180 He said, yeah.

01:04:36.640 And I said, they're all being like

01:04:37.940 overly polite and reserved,

01:04:41.480 if you know what I mean.

01:04:42.500 And that's when people

01:04:43.020 spring stuff on you.

01:04:43.760 And we came out of the meeting

01:04:44.760 and he said to me,

01:04:46.160 so Sean looks like

01:04:46.860 we've just been jumped.

01:04:49.160 I told you, David.

01:04:50.320 And he said, where'd you get that from?

01:04:51.320 I said, you know, the funny thing,

01:04:52.900 David, it's about gang warfare.

01:04:54.800 He said, what do you mean?

01:04:55.700 I said, this is just a different gang.

01:04:57.460 They're very clean shaven,

01:04:58.720 well educated,

01:04:59.600 but they're a gang.

01:05:00.440 They're operating.

01:05:01.260 In an emotional space

01:05:02.520 to promote their collective belief

01:05:04.880 and forward their collective wants.

01:05:07.880 And that's a gang mentality.

01:05:10.600 The only thing is,

01:05:11.320 you can guarantee

01:05:11.780 none of these people

01:05:12.260 are going to stab you.

01:05:13.860 And he was quite fascinated.

01:05:15.100 He said, it's really funny.

01:05:16.420 And I was trying to show him

01:05:17.680 that he actually had

01:05:18.740 much more knowledge about gangs

01:05:20.300 than he believed he did.

01:05:21.580 Because Eton and all that,

01:05:23.820 sort of, which group

01:05:24.720 you're a member of,

01:05:25.780 who undermines who,

01:05:26.620 who promotes who,

01:05:27.580 much of that is gang.

01:05:28.460 The special and horrific thing

01:05:30.820 about gang

01:05:31.380 is bullying and violence.

01:05:33.020 But most of it,

01:05:34.400 the personal,

01:05:35.680 emotional politics,

01:05:36.780 people would understand.

01:05:37.980 Sean, you talk about

01:05:38.880 disrupting the business

01:05:40.020 of gangs

01:05:40.860 and mostly that's drugs.

01:05:43.080 Oh, yeah.

01:05:43.420 One of the things

01:05:45.660 that I disagreed with you

01:05:46.820 most profoundly about

01:05:47.980 was when you were

01:05:49.260 running for mayor,

01:05:50.580 you were very strong

01:05:52.940 on the enforcement

01:05:55.020 and punishment

01:05:55.940 of drug users

01:05:57.600 side of things.

01:05:59.080 Whereas we've had

01:06:00.100 a lot of people

01:06:00.640 in the show home,

01:06:01.300 people like David Nutt,

01:06:02.400 for example,

01:06:03.620 who argue very strongly

01:06:05.040 that the best way

01:06:05.900 to disrupt that

01:06:06.880 is to decriminalize

01:06:08.740 the use of drugs,

01:06:10.020 to get people

01:06:10.760 who are addicted

01:06:11.340 treatment

01:06:11.840 and to attack

01:06:13.040 that problem

01:06:13.660 from that end

01:06:14.340 and to take the money

01:06:15.540 out of the business

01:06:17.560 of drugs.

01:06:19.000 What do you say to that?

01:06:19.980 So let's separate this out.

01:06:21.380 What I did was

01:06:22.460 focus on

01:06:23.720 white-collar drug use.

01:06:25.500 Yeah.

01:06:25.740 So I went on a building site

01:06:27.320 and his gears are there

01:06:28.640 and I was laughing

01:06:29.920 because he looked

01:06:30.940 like a boy I grew up with

01:06:31.820 and I said,

01:06:32.220 boy,

01:06:32.540 I grew up with

01:06:33.580 who smokes too much weed

01:06:34.400 and we love

01:06:34.860 he's like,

01:06:35.080 I love smoking in my life.

01:06:36.060 He said,

01:06:36.360 anyway,

01:06:36.520 they drug test us all the time

01:06:37.400 because I drive the crane.

01:06:39.140 I said,

01:06:39.420 yeah.

01:06:39.640 And I thought,

01:06:40.100 I'll do a second.

01:06:40.820 Why do you get drug tested?

01:06:42.360 Yeah.

01:06:42.800 Because you joined the crane

01:06:43.700 and the guy doing

01:06:44.800 everybody's pension

01:06:46.080 doesn't get drug tested.

01:06:46.980 That's not right.

01:06:47.720 And actually,

01:06:48.740 he buys shitload of drugs

01:06:50.020 which is driving

01:06:50.560 the drug scene in London.

01:06:52.040 He should get tested too.

01:06:53.220 I then found out

01:06:53.920 American banks

01:06:54.800 regularly do it.

01:06:56.160 So I just made that suggestion

01:06:57.380 because for me,

01:06:58.060 it's a matter of parity.

01:06:59.660 It's a matter of fairness.

01:07:00.920 If the working man

01:07:01.800 in the street

01:07:02.140 is getting drug tested,

01:07:03.180 so should the one

01:07:04.360 who works in a bank.

01:07:05.520 That's the thing.

01:07:06.000 And there's lots of

01:07:07.020 what I see as benefits

01:07:09.180 that flow from that

01:07:10.440 because drug use

01:07:11.080 destroys your mental health.

01:07:12.680 It creates a market

01:07:13.560 that my people

01:07:14.520 are actually dying for.

01:07:16.440 You know,

01:07:16.660 they're literally

01:07:16.940 getting murdered over it.

01:07:17.980 So I thought it was right.

01:07:19.520 Let me tell you why,

01:07:20.560 David,

01:07:20.860 I'm sure he's a lovely man,

01:07:21.840 but let me tell you

01:07:22.380 why he's entirely wrong.

01:07:24.020 Two really big reasons.

01:07:25.940 Everywhere in the world

01:07:26.820 they have liberalised drugs.

01:07:28.620 Yeah.

01:07:28.960 What has happened is

01:07:29.900 the legal market

01:07:31.080 has not gone away.

01:07:32.060 It's actually grown.

01:07:33.180 What's happened is

01:07:34.040 you get a parallel

01:07:35.480 legal and illegal

01:07:37.100 drug market

01:07:38.080 go together.

01:07:39.280 And because drugs

01:07:39.960 are legal here,

01:07:40.920 you then start to lose people

01:07:42.420 into the illegal market

01:07:43.360 because let's be clear,

01:07:44.880 imagine you legalised

01:07:45.980 weed in this country,

01:07:47.160 right,

01:07:47.380 marijuana to the uninitiated.

01:07:49.920 The government

01:07:50.680 cannot sell you skunk.

01:07:52.260 They cannot sell you

01:07:53.120 something that's going

01:07:53.720 to blow your mind,

01:07:54.780 destroy your lungs,

01:07:56.140 destroy your mental health

01:07:57.000 and kill you.

01:07:57.840 So what they'll do is

01:07:58.460 You can sell you vodka.

01:07:59.360 Vodka is more harmful.

01:08:00.420 But vodka takes time

01:08:01.320 and vodka had history

01:08:02.260 on its side.

01:08:03.140 If you invented liquor

01:08:05.040 tomorrow,

01:08:06.440 it wouldn't be legalised

01:08:07.620 in the way it is now.

01:08:08.520 And if you want to talk

01:08:09.240 about alcohol,

01:08:10.300 what's the single most

01:08:11.460 dangerous drug

01:08:12.480 in circulation

01:08:13.840 on the planet today?

01:08:14.940 Legal.

01:08:15.760 A legal drug.

01:08:16.520 Any drug.

01:08:18.100 Legal or otherwise.

01:08:20.400 I would have thought

01:08:21.260 something like heroin

01:08:22.120 and crystal meth.

01:08:23.040 No, alcohol.

01:08:23.540 Yeah.

01:08:24.080 For every one heroin

01:08:25.040 added is probably

01:08:26.460 150.

01:08:28.400 Well, it's because alcohol

01:08:29.180 is legal in most places.

01:08:30.480 But that's the point.

01:08:31.320 It's legal.

01:08:31.820 That's the point

01:08:32.220 I'm trying to make.

01:08:32.780 It's legal.

01:08:33.200 It's easily available.

01:08:34.020 Price pushed down.

01:08:34.820 All the rest of that.

01:08:35.780 What would an entrepreneur

01:08:36.460 do if they could

01:08:37.880 legalise weed?

01:08:38.680 They'd push the price down.

01:08:40.120 What is the main driver

01:08:41.320 if the only driver

01:08:42.420 around drug consumption?

01:08:44.200 Price.

01:08:44.860 So this is another reason

01:08:46.200 for not legalising.

01:08:47.040 Well, I don't go out

01:08:48.040 and get drunk

01:08:48.880 because it's cheaper.

01:08:50.740 I'll go and have a pint

01:08:52.040 because it's a Friday night

01:08:53.080 and I want to hang out

01:08:53.940 with my mates.

01:08:54.680 And you can afford

01:08:55.320 a pint.

01:08:56.040 And the reason you drink

01:08:56.820 the amount of pints you drink

01:08:57.920 is because they don't cost

01:08:58.620 50 quid a time.

01:08:59.720 If they cost 50 quid a time,

01:09:01.320 you drink these pints.

01:09:02.680 That's a fact.

01:09:03.700 Okay.

01:09:04.140 Yeah.

01:09:04.540 So the point is this.

01:09:05.900 So then you legalise,

01:09:07.300 you get this legal market,

01:09:09.300 you get an illegal market

01:09:10.440 and the illegal market grows

01:09:12.220 because people move

01:09:13.220 from something

01:09:14.080 that doesn't really affect them

01:09:15.100 to something that kicks their arse

01:09:16.140 and drugs is about an effect.

01:09:17.680 So you have to go

01:09:18.540 in that direction.

01:09:19.520 That's my first thing.

01:09:20.520 It does not eliminate

01:09:22.000 the legal market.

01:09:23.240 And the legal market

01:09:23.880 has all manner of

01:09:25.360 sex trade involved,

01:09:28.020 violence involved,

01:09:29.580 non-taxpaying.

01:09:30.400 And I bring up

01:09:30.980 the non-taxpaying bit

01:09:32.040 because the other thing is,

01:09:33.520 right,

01:09:34.040 I grew up with a lot of people

01:09:35.160 who dealt drugs,

01:09:36.220 like mostly just so they

01:09:37.340 didn't have to pay for their own.

01:09:38.540 One or two people I knew

01:09:39.400 along the way

01:09:39.740 were proper drug dealers.

01:09:41.140 And I remember bumping

01:09:42.080 into one of them

01:09:42.600 and we were talking

01:09:43.080 about legalisation.

01:09:44.200 And he said to me,

01:09:45.340 Sean,

01:09:45.940 do you think

01:09:47.080 I'm going to stop

01:09:48.320 selling drugs

01:09:49.040 just because it's legal?

01:09:51.220 And he said,

01:09:51.520 are you mad?

01:09:52.780 Of course I'm not.

01:09:54.440 He said,

01:09:54.680 I'll just sell more.

01:09:56.120 He says,

01:09:56.520 for instance,

01:09:57.100 the people who supply me,

01:09:58.800 yeah,

01:09:59.100 supply me at a very low rate,

01:10:00.200 a legal business

01:10:00.980 could never match

01:10:01.600 what I'm getting it for,

01:10:03.240 I'll start selling.

01:10:05.060 I'll start selling.

01:10:05.660 And how many legal businesses

01:10:06.900 are going to question me

01:10:07.660 as where I got my shit from?

01:10:08.680 And I use those words

01:10:09.520 because it's the words he used.

01:10:10.420 Where I got my shit from?

01:10:11.100 They don't care.

01:10:11.780 It's making money.

01:10:13.480 They don't care.

01:10:14.100 So come back

01:10:14.860 to the illegal market.

01:10:16.240 We had prohibition

01:10:17.240 in this country

01:10:17.920 and we had prohibition

01:10:19.140 in the United States.

01:10:20.300 There's been a lot

01:10:20.880 of Hollywood movies

01:10:21.560 made about that.

01:10:22.740 Is there an illegal market

01:10:24.100 in alcohol in America

01:10:25.100 that's worth talking about?

01:10:26.000 No.

01:10:26.620 But what happens

01:10:27.360 with alcohol

01:10:27.980 is very important

01:10:29.140 that you compare

01:10:29.980 apples and apples.

01:10:31.660 What happened

01:10:32.080 with alcohol,

01:10:33.360 it became legal,

01:10:35.380 right?

01:10:35.640 It was then pursued

01:10:37.400 by the biggest,

01:10:39.000 at the time,

01:10:39.460 some of the biggest businesses

01:10:40.260 in the world.

01:10:40.920 It pushed the price

01:10:41.900 down so far.

01:10:43.460 It became culturally acceptable

01:10:44.840 and everybody

01:10:46.240 drunk it.

01:10:47.780 Would you want

01:10:48.620 that situation

01:10:49.460 with weed?

01:10:50.520 I'd rather people

01:10:52.480 smoke weed

01:10:53.060 than drink alcohol,

01:10:53.880 that's for sure.

01:10:54.980 That's a whole other debate

01:10:56.180 but the point is

01:10:57.400 alcohol is

01:10:59.360 much less

01:11:01.100 physically effective,

01:11:03.980 defective rather,

01:11:05.600 than weed.

01:11:08.360 There's people now

01:11:09.220 watching this

01:11:09.840 who have a glass of wine

01:11:10.800 every night.

01:11:11.600 It probably makes

01:11:12.240 them live longer.

01:11:13.200 There's people

01:11:13.840 who are watching now

01:11:14.400 who collect whiskey,

01:11:15.740 drink the whiskey,

01:11:16.580 happy, fine.

01:11:17.840 There's very few people

01:11:18.660 who smoke weed

01:11:19.280 where it hasn't had

01:11:19.720 an effect on them.

01:11:20.520 There's very few people

01:11:21.500 who smoke the same amount

01:11:22.760 of weed now

01:11:23.480 that they did

01:11:24.380 when they started.

01:11:25.640 Yeah?

01:11:26.000 And why would you

01:11:27.600 roll the dice

01:11:28.300 with young people's health?

01:11:30.340 And I give you

01:11:30.860 something that's a bit

01:11:31.960 more of an allergy

01:11:32.920 because it's modern.

01:11:34.580 Look at vaping.

01:11:36.280 Right?

01:11:36.560 The amount of young people

01:11:37.300 that are vaping

01:11:37.860 is skyrocketed.

01:11:39.900 Skyrocketed.

01:11:40.500 Why?

01:11:40.840 Because it's cheap

01:11:41.400 because it's marketed

01:11:42.300 to them.

01:11:44.040 Marketed to them.

01:11:44.920 They can get hold of it.

01:11:45.680 And let's be clear,

01:11:46.520 it's illegal for them

01:11:47.360 to have

01:11:47.700 but they can get hold of it.

01:11:49.020 So if you give people

01:11:50.380 cheap legal drugs,

01:11:53.060 they will smoke

01:11:53.840 cheap legal drugs

01:11:55.260 which destroys

01:11:56.080 their mental health,

01:11:57.020 destroys their lungs,

01:11:58.280 generates mad amounts

01:11:59.300 of crime

01:11:59.820 because remember

01:12:00.640 that what we don't know

01:12:02.400 about alcohol

01:12:03.060 is how much crime,

01:12:04.520 you know,

01:12:04.840 theft,

01:12:05.680 burglary,

01:12:06.240 alcohol drives.

01:12:07.800 Right?

01:12:08.100 We probably know

01:12:08.680 a little bit less

01:12:09.200 about that

01:12:09.640 than we do

01:12:10.000 about how much

01:12:10.660 weed,

01:12:12.220 class A drugs,

01:12:13.020 drives, yeah?

01:12:13.720 You'd massively

01:12:14.620 be ramping that up.

01:12:15.600 And that's before

01:12:16.420 you get into

01:12:16.900 the real thing

01:12:17.540 for me,

01:12:18.360 mental health.

01:12:19.820 Sean,

01:12:20.220 this is why

01:12:21.560 people go,

01:12:22.740 are you a conservative?

01:12:23.620 I'm not.

01:12:24.080 Because what I find

01:12:25.240 funny about conservatives

01:12:26.360 is you guys,

01:12:27.960 you're all into

01:12:28.860 human nature

01:12:29.720 until it hits

01:12:30.900 things like this,

01:12:31.700 right?

01:12:31.960 Because here's

01:12:33.400 the human nature

01:12:34.240 argument

01:12:34.700 on this issue

01:12:35.980 is people are

01:12:36.940 always going to

01:12:37.500 do something

01:12:38.460 to change,

01:12:39.180 to alter their

01:12:39.800 state of mind.

01:12:40.460 Agreed.

01:12:40.780 Right?

01:12:41.160 Agreed.

01:12:41.540 And to me,

01:12:42.560 it's about

01:12:43.080 what is it

01:12:43.860 that you're

01:12:44.940 allowing them

01:12:45.820 to consume,

01:12:47.240 if we're

01:12:47.820 talking about

01:12:48.360 the level

01:12:48.680 of the government,

01:12:49.980 that you're doing.

01:12:51.400 And as you said

01:12:52.040 yourself,

01:12:52.420 alcohol is the

01:12:53.120 most damaging.

01:12:53.800 It's because

01:12:54.120 it's the most

01:12:54.560 widely used,

01:12:55.160 but also it is

01:12:55.800 much worse for you

01:12:56.800 than something

01:12:57.660 like weed.

01:12:58.560 No, it's not.

01:12:59.240 Yeah, it is.

01:12:59.740 No, it's not.

01:13:00.180 Of course it is.

01:13:01.140 Physically,

01:13:01.620 it's much worse for you.

01:13:02.660 No, it's not.

01:13:03.220 Alcohol is.

01:13:03.920 No, it's not.

01:13:04.700 Look,

01:13:05.700 to my brother

01:13:07.040 died of alcoholism.

01:13:08.600 Let's mean,

01:13:08.820 my brother drank

01:13:09.660 himself to death.

01:13:10.720 It took

01:13:11.280 a very,

01:13:12.860 very long time

01:13:14.380 for that to happen.

01:13:15.360 And the reason

01:13:15.820 it took so long

01:13:16.560 is because

01:13:20.240 alcohol

01:13:21.020 affects on you

01:13:22.440 his lower level.

01:13:23.080 Basically,

01:13:23.380 your body can

01:13:23.880 deal with it

01:13:24.200 for longer.

01:13:25.160 I was a youth worker

01:13:26.060 for 30 years.

01:13:27.360 I watched boys

01:13:28.180 destroy their mental

01:13:29.740 health by puffing.

01:13:31.480 And see,

01:13:31.840 there's two levels

01:13:32.820 of destroying their

01:13:33.520 mental health.

01:13:33.820 One was psychosis.

01:13:35.120 Like,

01:13:35.580 I can remember,

01:13:37.900 I can think of

01:13:38.420 at least four individuals

01:13:39.500 that I directly worked

01:13:40.460 with who,

01:13:41.580 this is a word,

01:13:42.640 a sort of street term

01:13:43.520 to use,

01:13:43.940 who are now walking

01:13:44.540 up and down the high street

01:13:45.260 with straws up their nose.

01:13:46.700 Like,

01:13:46.920 you know,

01:13:47.380 visibly in mental distress.

01:13:50.420 Right?

01:13:50.920 And then there's a much,

01:13:52.200 much bigger crowd

01:13:53.060 that lost any ability

01:13:54.720 to push on in life.

01:13:56.800 So they're what I call

01:13:57.420 the four o'clock boys.

01:13:58.480 They stay up till four,

01:13:59.840 sleep till four.

01:14:01.240 Only action is to come out

01:14:02.240 and get some weed.

01:14:03.300 And I remember,

01:14:03.900 I had one boy in particular,

01:14:05.060 right?

01:14:05.400 I won't,

01:14:06.280 I'll make up a name

01:14:08.060 for him,

01:14:08.300 right?

01:14:08.460 Called Sulfian.

01:14:09.700 And he,

01:14:11.280 he'd got in trouble

01:14:12.640 with the police

01:14:13.060 because he stole something.

01:14:14.020 And Sulfian's not a thief.

01:14:15.260 He's not a thief.

01:14:16.000 Like,

01:14:16.360 he wasn't a thief,

01:14:16.900 but he stole something.

01:14:17.680 It's an opportunity he stole.

01:14:19.420 And I said to him,

01:14:20.240 that was a crackhead move.

01:14:21.540 He freaked.

01:14:22.160 You can't call me a crackhead.

01:14:23.940 He freaked out at me.

01:14:25.580 And I said,

01:14:25.900 Sulfian,

01:14:26.840 what are you going to do

01:14:27.400 with that money?

01:14:29.360 Yeah,

01:14:29.640 like,

01:14:29.800 you know,

01:14:30.060 Sean,

01:14:30.280 I'm living in it.

01:14:30.960 I've got things to buy.

01:14:31.960 I've got a little pair,

01:14:32.520 a little rent and all that.

01:14:33.440 I said,

01:14:33.760 where are you going to do

01:14:34.160 that money,

01:14:34.560 Sulfian?

01:14:35.400 I said,

01:14:35.680 at least 50% of that

01:14:36.540 was going to end up as weed.

01:14:38.140 And he looked at me,

01:14:39.500 right?

01:14:39.680 He's about,

01:14:40.160 he's about to give me

01:14:41.180 both barrels.

01:14:42.480 And then he sort of went,

01:14:44.160 yeah,

01:14:44.400 shit,

01:14:44.660 you're right.

01:14:45.120 And I said,

01:14:45.480 that's why I called it

01:14:46.000 a crackhead move.

01:14:47.240 Because we don't associate weed

01:14:49.340 with poor behaviour,

01:14:50.860 we don't link the poor behaviour

01:14:52.920 that it drives.

01:14:54.100 When someone takes crack,

01:14:55.760 we link it much more easily.

01:14:57.200 Yeah?

01:14:57.600 But we leave.

01:14:58.260 And I said to him,

01:14:58.860 look,

01:14:59.440 your income needs,

01:15:00.960 back to something I said

01:15:01.660 probably half an hour ago.

01:15:03.300 One of the ways

01:15:03.860 to raise your income

01:15:04.640 is to lower your outgoings,

01:15:05.980 yeah?

01:15:06.360 Your income needs

01:15:07.300 are significantly higher.

01:15:09.300 Why?

01:15:09.660 Because you smoke weed.

01:15:11.840 I had another girl

01:15:12.600 that I worked with

01:15:13.260 and her mum was constantly

01:15:14.220 trying to kick out her brother,

01:15:15.660 right?

01:15:16.160 He joined our football team,

01:15:17.700 got into his fitness,

01:15:18.860 stopped puffing,

01:15:20.280 right?

01:15:20.720 So I started bumping

01:15:21.420 his sister every now and then,

01:15:22.480 much less agitated,

01:15:23.720 much less chatting

01:15:24.300 about her brother.

01:15:25.180 I was going to go,

01:15:25.620 yeah,

01:15:25.820 it's all right,

01:15:26.260 she's all right,

01:15:26.720 it's all right,

01:15:27.020 it's good,

01:15:27.300 it's all right.

01:15:27.960 Oh no,

01:15:28.480 what's changed?

01:15:29.060 She said,

01:15:29.220 I don't know.

01:15:30.360 And I said to him,

01:15:31.180 what's changed?

01:15:32.260 He said,

01:15:32.620 yeah,

01:15:32.840 I'll pay rent.

01:15:34.800 So I said,

01:15:35.480 boy,

01:15:35.720 I used to run a job club.

01:15:37.180 I said,

01:15:37.380 boy,

01:15:37.560 you got a job?

01:15:38.420 He said,

01:15:38.780 no,

01:15:39.040 no,

01:15:39.220 no,

01:15:39.420 but I,

01:15:39.780 he said,

01:15:40.340 I've just got a little cash

01:15:41.500 and so like,

01:15:42.020 I'll go in the house,

01:15:42.560 I'll pay rent,

01:15:42.900 my mum treats me like a big man

01:15:43.900 because I'm paying rent,

01:15:44.520 so I'm cool,

01:15:45.000 she's cool,

01:15:45.360 but it's cool.

01:15:46.300 So I said to him,

01:15:46.760 how do you pay rent?

01:15:47.360 And he said,

01:15:47.620 yeah,

01:15:47.720 because I don't bun anymore.

01:15:49.420 I don't bun.

01:15:50.720 See,

01:15:50.860 and we're not making those connections

01:15:52.700 and I make those connections

01:15:54.300 because I saw it happening

01:15:55.520 and the only difference between me

01:15:57.220 and the people I grew up with

01:15:58.200 is I don't smoke and don't drink.

01:16:00.760 That's all.

01:16:01.460 And I used to ask,

01:16:02.080 I used to ask a couple of questions.

01:16:03.860 Like,

01:16:04.060 why?

01:16:04.840 But aren't you making my point,

01:16:06.320 which is you are voluntarily choosing

01:16:08.060 not to smoke or drink.

01:16:09.580 Drinking is legal.

01:16:10.540 Yeah,

01:16:10.760 and you make my point,

01:16:12.180 right,

01:16:12.640 human nature,

01:16:13.700 you said,

01:16:14.020 because some of us are not interested in human nature,

01:16:15.200 but human nature exists

01:16:16.340 and the point is this,

01:16:17.240 at some point,

01:16:18.320 yeah,

01:16:18.560 you have to intervene

01:16:19.580 because we all pay the bill,

01:16:21.920 yeah,

01:16:22.340 when so many people

01:16:23.820 have a breakdown.

01:16:27.300 Like,

01:16:27.600 Yeah,

01:16:27.780 I agree with you on the mental health.

01:16:29.360 I agree with you on that.

01:16:29.680 We'll all end up paying for the mental health,

01:16:30.980 we'll all end up paying for the physical health

01:16:32.320 and the NHS

01:16:32.760 and we'll all end up paying for the police health.

01:16:34.820 We'll pay.

01:16:35.320 What I don't understand

01:16:36.420 is in a world where alcohol is legal

01:16:38.880 and it's perfectly acceptable in this country

01:16:41.760 and as a Russian,

01:16:43.020 even as a Russian,

01:16:44.180 it boggles my mind

01:16:45.000 how much drink,

01:16:45.800 how much people drink here.

01:16:47.480 But,

01:16:47.720 right,

01:16:48.440 that's perfectly socially acceptable.

01:16:50.800 Your guy from the building site

01:16:52.560 who gets drug tested every day

01:16:54.400 could be smashing 10 pints every night.

01:16:56.780 Yeah,

01:16:56.900 but he can't come to work drunk.

01:16:58.180 That's the first thing.

01:16:58.660 You can't come to work drunk,

01:17:00.000 but you could be smashing 10 pints every night,

01:17:02.360 waking up the next day

01:17:03.380 and going to work.

01:17:03.840 Yeah,

01:17:04.020 and he could say to his boss,

01:17:05.440 I sunk 10 last night

01:17:06.960 and they'd all laugh and high five.

01:17:08.740 But the difference with alcohol is

01:17:10.200 this is a very important point.

01:17:12.300 When somebody compares that,

01:17:13.580 and now I know they're desperately

01:17:14.360 just trying to legalise drugs,

01:17:15.980 alcohol is historic.

01:17:17.780 When we invented alcohol,

01:17:19.580 right,

01:17:19.840 we thought people were witches.

01:17:22.560 In fact,

01:17:22.860 we invented alcohol before we invented witches.

01:17:25.440 Alcohol is literally ancient.

01:17:27.140 We didn't know.

01:17:28.040 And I go back to your point,

01:17:29.300 which I think is very true.

01:17:30.620 People will always seek to get out of their minds somehow.

01:17:34.500 Right?

01:17:34.700 Yeah.

01:17:34.880 Some people do base jumping.

01:17:36.760 Some people drink whiskey.

01:17:38.120 Yeah,

01:17:38.240 right?

01:17:39.120 You can't take it all away.

01:17:41.060 So we historically have alcohol.

01:17:42.740 Let's try to control that,

01:17:43.980 keep it in or not,

01:17:44.620 and deal in it.

01:17:45.040 We don't need to add to that part.

01:17:46.540 That will just be my take.

01:17:48.040 Don't get me wrong.

01:17:48.740 I've got a lot of people who puff all the while.

01:17:50.760 Yeah.

01:17:50.880 And they're fine.

01:17:52.140 They're fine.

01:17:53.520 To a certain extent,

01:17:54.420 leave them to it.

01:17:55.100 But don't grow that group.

01:17:56.940 Because an exponential growth in that group

01:17:58.680 means an exponential growth in people

01:18:00.120 whose lives are destroyed because of it.

01:18:02.100 And Sean,

01:18:02.680 what would you say?

01:18:03.360 We touched on it briefly

01:18:04.540 about the illegal activity.

01:18:07.020 By legalising these drugs,

01:18:08.440 you take it away from the gangs.

01:18:10.700 You disrupt their business model.

01:18:13.240 And, you know,

01:18:14.560 you can tax it.

01:18:15.580 You make income off it.

01:18:16.960 Surely it's a win-win.

01:18:18.140 No, it isn't.

01:18:18.920 You legalise it.

01:18:19.880 You don't take it away from the gangs.

01:18:21.460 What you do is give them a much,

01:18:23.000 much bigger market.

01:18:25.200 Nowhere in the world

01:18:26.080 has the illegal market gone away.

01:18:27.820 What you then do is

01:18:28.720 you provide a waiting room

01:18:30.360 for their activity.

01:18:32.380 So if I'm smoking,

01:18:33.240 what the government basically

01:18:34.020 give me men full cigarettes, right?

01:18:36.040 I then meet,

01:18:36.820 said drug dealer in a rave

01:18:38.000 or my local park.

01:18:39.420 And he says,

01:18:39.800 you smoke that crap.

01:18:40.640 I'll give you something

01:18:41.120 that really set you alive.

01:18:42.720 Oh my gosh, yes.

01:18:44.180 You go there.

01:18:45.280 You go there.

01:18:45.600 And that's before

01:18:46.280 you get into

01:18:47.300 wood drug dealers

01:18:48.520 then try to seek out

01:18:49.660 legitimate business

01:18:50.860 and short circuit that situation.

01:18:52.520 Like, bruv,

01:18:53.180 you see how much you're paying

01:18:54.200 for your weed?

01:18:54.920 Yeah, I'll get you weed.

01:18:55.580 You feel like that?

01:18:56.280 Come on.

01:18:58.040 The tax man don't know.

01:18:59.440 And remember, bruv,

01:19:00.280 like,

01:19:01.020 weed's a cash business.

01:19:02.660 Yeah?

01:19:03.060 How's the government know

01:19:03.900 how much you put

01:19:04.920 through the doors this week?

01:19:05.940 I ain't got a clue, bruv.

01:19:06.680 I'll get you weed.

01:19:07.540 Don't buy that.

01:19:08.380 You're buying stuff from Unilever

01:19:09.700 when you can buy stuff from Derek.

01:19:11.240 Come on, man.

01:19:11.640 Derek set you up properly.

01:19:13.220 That's what would happen.

01:19:14.660 And anybody who doubts me,

01:19:16.600 look what happens

01:19:17.120 to all the cafes in Amsterdam,

01:19:18.500 what happened in Canada,

01:19:20.700 all those places.

01:19:21.420 That's what happens.

01:19:22.900 Drug dealers are

01:19:24.300 some of the most inventive,

01:19:27.120 fearless entrepreneurs

01:19:29.160 in the world.

01:19:29.740 I wish it wasn't the way,

01:19:30.540 but they are.

01:19:31.200 They are clever people.

01:19:32.360 And it won't cease to be clever

01:19:35.020 just because you've legalized.

01:19:36.380 So let's find a way

01:19:37.380 to wrap this up then, Sean,

01:19:38.800 in a way that we're not still arguing.

01:19:41.340 But I actually really respect

01:19:42.700 the conversation and enjoy it.

01:19:44.960 How do we solve the problem of,

01:19:46.800 I mean, because, look,

01:19:48.120 from the sort of like

01:19:49.600 middle-class suburbia point of view,

01:19:51.800 the way London looks

01:19:53.300 to a lot of people now

01:19:54.360 is just endless.

01:19:56.100 There's people running around

01:19:56.900 with fucking machetes

01:19:57.740 around the streets of London.

01:20:00.980 Like, how do we deal with that?

01:20:03.140 Look,

01:20:04.940 it is still a small enough

01:20:06.640 group of people doing that,

01:20:08.680 mostly around street life,

01:20:11.460 drug goings on.

01:20:12.440 Notice I didn't use the word gangs.

01:20:14.060 Gang behavior is part of it,

01:20:15.480 but it isn't all of it.

01:20:16.240 I don't want anybody

01:20:17.180 to just write off

01:20:17.980 it's just gangs.

01:20:18.580 There's more to it than that.

01:20:20.140 But the number is still small enough

01:20:21.740 for us to get on top of it.

01:20:23.080 London is still one of the safest,

01:20:24.580 biggest cities in the world.

01:20:25.220 That is a fact.

01:20:26.680 But boy, it needs to be safer,

01:20:28.440 for sure, right?

01:20:29.300 Particularly for people

01:20:30.040 who live here.

01:20:31.100 If you live here

01:20:32.060 and you live in certain places

01:20:33.720 in London,

01:20:34.240 it's very easy

01:20:35.280 to get caught up in it.

01:20:36.400 So we do need to work on it.

01:20:38.300 And the technical approach

01:20:41.320 would be this.

01:20:42.200 We need to have a plan

01:20:43.420 to get more and more weapons

01:20:44.800 off the street.

01:20:46.020 We need to make it

01:20:46.760 that if you've got a knife,

01:20:47.980 you feel that somebody's

01:20:48.880 going to find out,

01:20:49.340 you feel nervous about it.

01:20:50.500 That's the first thing.

01:20:51.140 Because that just lowers

01:20:51.800 the opportunity

01:20:52.360 for people to be stabbed.

01:20:53.900 It lowers the opportunity

01:20:54.820 for something to escalate

01:20:55.900 and a stabbing happen.

01:20:57.740 I dealt with a boy recently

01:20:59.220 who had stabbed someone

01:21:00.560 and he said to me,

01:21:02.380 he wished he never

01:21:02.840 had his knife on him.

01:21:04.620 I said, why?

01:21:05.100 He said, without the knife,

01:21:05.820 Sean, nothing would happen.

01:21:06.640 And he said,

01:21:06.960 now I'm sitting in jail.

01:21:07.960 It's a madness.

01:21:09.100 I said, but you stabbed someone.

01:21:09.940 He said, yeah, I know, Sean.

01:21:10.820 But he said,

01:21:11.420 I'm having to think how I...

01:21:13.040 He said, in a way, Sean,

01:21:14.140 I did it to myself,

01:21:15.380 which was a mad admission.

01:21:16.740 You know what I mean?

01:21:17.040 And he said that.

01:21:17.560 So that's sort of

01:21:18.660 where I'm coming from there.

01:21:20.040 Like, get those weapons

01:21:21.320 off the street.

01:21:24.440 The other pieces as well,

01:21:27.320 you have certain communities

01:21:28.500 who've been under such pressure

01:21:29.940 for such a long time,

01:21:31.520 who we've talked about

01:21:32.200 as victims,

01:21:33.520 who have been victimised,

01:21:35.220 so have become victims.

01:21:36.480 We need to give them a break.

01:21:38.940 And a break generally means

01:21:40.620 their young people

01:21:41.640 having some kind of future.

01:21:43.360 And I want to be really clear

01:21:44.400 about this.

01:21:44.720 It's not youth work.

01:21:46.380 I've been a youth worker

01:21:47.200 for 30 years.

01:21:48.680 In my opinion,

01:21:49.640 it's employment.

01:21:51.080 Yeah.

01:21:51.320 There is no silver bullet to this.

01:21:53.900 Youth work is brilliant.

01:21:54.680 I believe in youth work.

01:21:55.620 I've given more than half

01:21:56.640 my life over to youth work.

01:21:58.780 Yeah.

01:21:59.380 But youth work is like

01:22:01.060 an entertainment.

01:22:02.400 Yes, it can do serious things.

01:22:04.060 I've done family therapy.

01:22:05.220 I've run job clubs.

01:22:06.060 It can do serious things.

01:22:07.280 But what you want

01:22:08.120 is people to be

01:22:08.920 independent of youth work.

01:22:10.640 If you look at the communities

01:22:11.860 doing the best in London,

01:22:13.460 their children don't do youth work.

01:22:15.340 They don't go to youth work.

01:22:16.460 They do other things.

01:22:17.860 So youth work needs to be

01:22:19.360 as a channel to job.

01:22:20.580 And I just say a job.

01:22:21.560 A job is not be all

01:22:22.560 and end all anything.

01:22:23.620 But it does some

01:22:24.200 very important things.

01:22:25.500 It gives people

01:22:26.200 a wider network.

01:22:28.160 It gives them access

01:22:29.080 to finance.

01:22:30.320 And it's wonderful

01:22:31.060 for their confidence.

01:22:34.080 I've talked about

01:22:34.840 white middle class guilt.

01:22:35.540 Let's be very clear.

01:22:36.420 I respect the middle classes

01:22:37.860 because what they do

01:22:39.280 is take responsibility,

01:22:40.600 work.

01:22:41.160 And even the guilt part

01:22:42.220 is them trying to

01:22:43.200 sort of say to people,

01:22:44.600 we want to help.

01:22:45.640 We've done well.

01:22:46.320 We want to see you do well.

01:22:47.340 I get it.

01:22:48.300 But ask yourself this.

01:22:50.560 Are you preventing

01:22:51.380 a group of people

01:22:52.540 developing the skills

01:22:53.760 to have something

01:22:54.660 to teach their children?

01:22:56.340 You know what I mean?

01:22:56.680 Are you trying to

01:22:57.380 parachute yourselves in?

01:22:58.820 You know what I mean?

01:22:59.480 How comes poor

01:23:00.740 immigrant communities

01:23:01.740 have done completely well

01:23:03.300 before they got here?

01:23:04.360 Like our parents

01:23:05.280 done a massive thing

01:23:06.100 making the transition here.

01:23:07.440 It's a massive thing.

01:23:08.460 They're strong communities.

01:23:09.240 What they need is opportunity.

01:23:10.600 They don't need to be

01:23:11.560 patronised.

01:23:13.700 They need opportunity.

01:23:15.140 And then when you talk

01:23:16.400 about opportunity,

01:23:17.140 people then have to realise

01:23:18.260 opportunity,

01:23:20.500 equality of opportunity

01:23:21.680 is different

01:23:22.380 to equality of outcome.

01:23:24.300 Equality of outcome

01:23:24.960 is impossible.

01:23:26.320 You know,

01:23:26.480 your cameraman's

01:23:28.040 a better cameraman

01:23:28.640 than me.

01:23:29.200 He will get that

01:23:29.760 cameraman job.

01:23:30.800 You know what?

01:23:31.240 So what you're trying to do

01:23:32.080 is give people

01:23:32.840 some kind of roadmap

01:23:34.280 to some kind of opportunity

01:23:35.240 that they believe

01:23:35.820 they can move on

01:23:36.340 because what that does,

01:23:37.540 that transforms their community

01:23:38.740 over the long term.

01:23:40.740 And then I have things

01:23:41.640 that I'm particularly

01:23:42.380 passionate about

01:23:43.100 that other people

01:23:44.500 are somewhere

01:23:45.960 on the spectrum.

01:23:46.900 I think, for instance,

01:23:48.200 the prevalence of marriage

01:23:50.040 needs to be up.

01:23:53.140 And someone said to me,

01:23:53.660 it's just a piece of paper.

01:23:54.480 Yeah, it is just a piece of paper.

01:23:55.820 But it is a fact

01:23:56.820 that married people

01:23:57.740 live longer,

01:23:58.600 are happier,

01:23:59.660 their children

01:24:00.000 have better men

01:24:00.520 is a fact.

01:24:01.640 The institution of marriage

01:24:02.680 does something

01:24:03.440 to somebody's expectations

01:24:04.740 and their output.

01:24:05.960 So we should do more than that.

01:24:07.520 And of course,

01:24:08.680 where children are concerned,

01:24:10.120 married people

01:24:10.620 make more money,

01:24:11.560 even more than

01:24:12.840 cohabiting people.

01:24:13.760 and married people

01:24:15.260 break up three times

01:24:16.960 less than cohabiting people.

01:24:18.800 That's really important.

01:24:19.840 And when you speak

01:24:20.660 to children,

01:24:21.620 the biggest thing

01:24:22.280 that drives their mental health

01:24:23.700 is their orientation

01:24:25.580 and their parents.

01:24:26.580 Their parents together,

01:24:27.220 their mental health is bad.

01:24:27.960 That's not my opinion.

01:24:28.740 It happens to be a fact.

01:24:29.820 And I don't say that

01:24:30.800 to make people feel bad.

01:24:32.280 I don't say that

01:24:32.960 to people

01:24:33.640 have to stay together,

01:24:35.200 don't stay together.

01:24:36.220 One of the things

01:24:36.880 I think that makes marriage

01:24:37.980 valuable

01:24:38.640 is no-fought divorce.

01:24:41.080 If I had a magic wand,

01:24:42.080 one of the first things

01:24:42.740 I'd fix is

01:24:43.240 you should be able

01:24:43.780 to divorce someone

01:24:44.360 and don't have to find

01:24:45.040 who was at fault.

01:24:46.540 You shouldn't stay

01:24:47.040 with people

01:24:47.300 if you don't want to.

01:24:48.420 But if more people

01:24:49.440 had an expectation

01:24:50.200 to stay together,

01:24:51.380 more people

01:24:51.900 would stay together.

01:24:53.320 It's going to sound bizarre,

01:24:54.160 but Finland have shown us that.

01:24:55.380 The government

01:24:55.740 is supporting marriage

01:24:56.440 in many ways.

01:24:57.200 Their marriage rates

01:24:57.740 have gone through the roof

01:24:58.400 and their social output

01:24:59.220 is also going through the roof.

01:25:00.920 But that's just something

01:25:01.800 that I'm,

01:25:02.900 remember,

01:25:03.240 I come from a single-parent family.

01:25:05.000 And I've watched my community

01:25:06.940 just be

01:25:09.720 destroyed by drugs

01:25:12.040 and poor educational attainment

01:25:14.460 and gangs

01:25:15.600 and fatherlessness.

01:25:17.520 And my overriding thing

01:25:20.720 I'd say last is

01:25:21.980 do not rely on politicians

01:25:24.580 to fix your world.

01:25:25.880 I know you think you're not,

01:25:26.920 but every time you ask

01:25:27.680 what the government are doing,

01:25:29.060 that's basically doing that.

01:25:30.580 Try to find something

01:25:31.600 that in your personal life,

01:25:32.980 in your family life,

01:25:33.740 and your broader community life

01:25:35.040 does something positive.

01:25:36.800 And beyond that,

01:25:37.520 join a civic organisation,

01:25:38.640 a charity,

01:25:40.120 a think tank

01:25:40.860 that's doing the thinking.

01:25:42.380 That's how we fit the country,

01:25:43.600 not waiting for politicians.

01:25:45.760 Politicians are very important.

01:25:47.140 They have something to do

01:25:47.960 and we have the right

01:25:49.260 to push them

01:25:49.880 and cajole them to do it

01:25:51.840 and do that.

01:25:53.180 But don't rely on that.

01:25:55.720 And the last thing I'd say is

01:25:56.760 be wary of what you read

01:25:58.980 and who you believe.

01:26:01.260 One of the best conversations

01:26:02.240 I've had recently

01:26:03.000 is a woman

01:26:03.640 who only knows about me,

01:26:05.020 in her words,

01:26:05.960 through The Guardian.

01:26:06.620 So we had this long conversation,

01:26:09.920 you know,

01:26:10.160 up and down,

01:26:10.680 we disagreed,

01:26:11.320 we agreed

01:26:11.840 and we literally hugged

01:26:13.100 at the bus stop.

01:26:13.680 She said,

01:26:13.940 oh, this has been stimulated.

01:26:15.480 You know,

01:26:15.940 she said,

01:26:16.300 you're a teeny bit wrong

01:26:17.080 about everything.

01:26:17.600 I said,

01:26:17.960 I know,

01:26:18.440 you're a teeny bit,

01:26:18.880 I mean,

01:26:19.200 we high-fived,

01:26:20.060 hugged,

01:26:20.240 it was wonderful.

01:26:21.320 And she said,

01:26:22.100 now I know

01:26:23.060 where I know your name.

01:26:24.580 I read about you.

01:26:25.740 She said,

01:26:26.000 you're the guy

01:26:26.520 who ran for Mayor of London.

01:26:27.800 So remember,

01:26:28.300 we spoke for like

01:26:28.980 a clear 25 minutes

01:26:30.240 before we reached that point.

01:26:31.580 And she said,

01:26:32.160 you're nothing like

01:26:33.280 how they painted you

01:26:34.120 in the press.

01:26:35.240 And the one thing

01:26:36.000 I'd say to the country,

01:26:37.080 we are being so handled

01:26:39.440 by the press.

01:26:40.700 Now,

01:26:41.100 of course,

01:26:41.540 I'm about to tell you

01:26:42.660 we're being particularly

01:26:43.620 handled by the left-wing press.

01:26:46.000 But that's my particular

01:26:47.420 sort of orientation,

01:26:48.520 but we're being handled

01:26:49.260 by the press.

01:26:50.300 And the best people

01:26:51.340 in the world,

01:26:52.160 the most formative people

01:26:53.380 in the world

01:26:53.780 are the people

01:26:54.640 who question,

01:26:55.680 the people who test.

01:26:57.060 Not cynics,

01:26:58.120 but triers.

01:27:00.240 And I met Oliver Puddley

01:27:01.080 the other day

01:27:01.720 and he gave me a term,

01:27:03.460 GLT.

01:27:04.480 And I was like,

01:27:04.740 what's that?

01:27:05.340 He said,

01:27:05.660 God loves a trier.

01:27:07.040 He said,

01:27:07.280 get out there

01:27:07.740 and keep trying.

01:27:08.840 And that's what you've got to do.

01:27:09.640 You've got to keep

01:27:10.020 trying to grow

01:27:10.680 your intellect,

01:27:12.280 your physical self,

01:27:13.860 your relationships around you,

01:27:15.760 grow the young people

01:27:16.520 around you.

01:27:17.760 And so I keep having

01:27:18.760 the last thing.

01:27:19.220 This is my last last thing.

01:27:20.660 Someone said to me,

01:27:21.620 you know,

01:27:21.980 Sean,

01:27:22.240 you did youth work

01:27:22.760 for years.

01:27:23.520 What's the best thing

01:27:24.240 you can do

01:27:24.580 for a young person?

01:27:26.240 Inspire them.

01:27:26.680 A young person

01:27:28.000 who's inspired

01:27:28.640 will never need pushing.

01:27:30.400 Never need.

01:27:30.720 And you don't know.

01:27:31.840 And I'm trying to do

01:27:33.440 my own son now

01:27:34.460 and my daughter.

01:27:35.500 It's been a bit easier

01:27:36.220 with my daughter

01:27:36.640 because she's 15.

01:27:37.480 She's got a clear vision

01:27:38.520 of the world.

01:27:39.400 My son's only 13.

01:27:40.660 But if you have any young people

01:27:41.800 in your world,

01:27:42.500 help them figure out

01:27:43.500 what they like

01:27:44.500 and what they enjoy.

01:27:46.660 Slightly two different things

01:27:47.760 because enjoy,

01:27:49.160 for me,

01:27:49.560 has a little bit more

01:27:50.620 activity.

01:27:52.100 You're doing a thing

01:27:53.100 because if you can help

01:27:54.040 a child figure that out,

01:27:55.440 you can help them

01:27:56.100 build a future.

01:27:57.780 You can get them

01:27:58.580 to turn up for themselves.

01:28:00.400 But I'm going to stop

01:28:01.180 because I just keep going.

01:28:03.120 Sean,

01:28:03.560 it's been an absolute pleasure.

01:28:04.900 Thank you so much

01:28:05.680 for coming on the show.

01:28:06.840 If people want to find you online,

01:28:08.240 where is the best place

01:28:09.060 to do that?

01:28:09.460 I am

01:28:10.460 seanbaileyam

01:28:11.680 on Twitter.

01:28:12.800 I'm on Instagram.

01:28:15.460 My Twitter has a little bit

01:28:16.580 of politics on it

01:28:17.300 because, you know,

01:28:17.700 I'm in politics.

01:28:18.920 My Instagram is just

01:28:20.000 me and my kids

01:28:21.280 doing stuff.

01:28:22.000 But it's much more funny.

01:28:22.840 I'm nice to get into action there.

01:28:24.260 And I'm out.

01:28:24.800 I'm in the press.

01:28:25.320 I do GB News regularly.

01:28:26.400 I'm on the Dan Whitton show.

01:28:27.420 I'm very regularly.

01:28:28.660 And I just try to keep

01:28:29.660 in the public eye

01:28:30.240 and have the conversation.

01:28:31.900 And I'm constantly

01:28:33.660 looking for ways

01:28:34.940 to help people

01:28:35.620 be independent.

01:28:36.500 That for me

01:28:37.040 is the goal.

01:28:37.980 Well, Sean,

01:28:38.400 we're going to ask you

01:28:38.880 a couple of questions

01:28:39.780 from our supporters

01:28:41.120 that only they will get to see.

01:28:42.520 But as always,

01:28:43.120 the last question

01:28:43.760 we always ask on the show

01:28:44.740 is what is the one thing

01:28:46.160 that we're not talking about

01:28:47.280 as a society

01:28:48.160 that we really should be?

01:28:49.220 Thank you.

01:28:49.340 Thank you.

01:28:49.420 Thank you.

01:28:49.840 Thank you.

01:28:49.920 Thank you.

01:28:50.420 Thank you.

01:28:50.920 Thank you.

01:28:51.440 Thank you.

01:28:51.980 Thank you.

01:28:52.000 Thank you.

01:28:52.440 The state of education.

01:29:01.740 We are not.

01:29:04.180 We use school to train

01:29:05.760 and to be training

01:29:07.220 is different to education.

01:29:08.600 And we no longer

01:29:09.360 use university to discuss.

01:29:11.260 We are teaching our children

01:29:12.780 to define themselves

01:29:13.700 as one singular thing

01:29:14.620 and then to hate anybody

01:29:15.840 that isn't them.

01:29:16.780 And that is the quickest way

01:29:17.880 to destroy a country.

01:29:18.640 Very well said.

01:29:21.480 Sean, thank you so much

01:29:22.420 for coming on

01:29:23.000 and thank you for watching

01:29:24.320 and listening.

01:29:25.340 We'll see you very soon

01:29:26.480 with another brilliant episode

01:29:27.680 like this one

01:29:28.360 or Raw Show.

01:29:29.680 All of them go out

01:29:30.260 at 7pm UK time.

01:29:31.360 And for those of you

01:29:31.960 who like your trigonometry

01:29:32.900 on the go,

01:29:33.980 it's also available

01:29:34.960 as a podcast.

01:29:36.060 Take care

01:29:36.720 and see you soon, guys.

01:29:40.100 Will Sean be standing

01:29:41.080 for mayor again?

01:29:41.940 He did better than expected

01:29:43.100 last time.

01:29:44.320 Or will he be looking

01:29:45.580 to run for MP,

01:29:46.680 maybe replacing Rosendel?

01:29:49.080 Oh, yeah.

01:29:50.920 Bye, yeah.

01:29:53.080 Bye.

01:29:57.660 Bye, yeah.

01:29:58.640 Bye, yeah.

01:29:58.860 Bye, yeah.

01:30:00.780 Bye, yeah.

01:30:01.560 Bye, yeah.

01:30:02.480 Bye.

01:30:03.080 Bye, yeah.

01:30:17.600 Bye watch.

TRIGGERnometry - October 10, 2022

“We need to stop relying on the government to solve our problems” - Shaun Bailey

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