TRIGGERnometry - ＂We're not thinking, we're emoting＂ - John Anderson, former Deputy Prime Minister of Australia

00:00:00.000 I look around and I see a desperate lack of hope.

00:00:03.780 It really, really troubles me.

00:00:06.180 But I think what we're missing is that when we say our politicians are behaving disgracefully

00:00:10.580 and that it's all so broken, they're just reflecting the society that's voting them in.

00:00:15.760 We're missing that.

00:00:16.800 It's telling us something about our own society.

00:00:20.420 So if you don't engage respectfully, if you don't think through the issues,

00:00:25.060 if you don't grapple with the facts rather than the emotions,

00:00:30.080 there's your civilisational moment.

00:00:32.440 We're not thinking.

00:00:34.120 We're emoting everything.

00:00:36.660 And that's your classic with social media.

00:00:39.300 I think there's another aspect.

00:00:40.680 There's the old Edmund Burke thing.

00:00:42.460 You know, all it takes for evil to prosper is good people to remain silent.

00:00:45.660 So you've got a huge number of people who are disengaged from politics,

00:00:48.980 from public life, from the public square,

00:00:52.200 and they're frightened of going on social media.

00:00:54.820 And what we actually need is more people of balance in the middle,

00:00:57.360 being prepared to say, you know, I don't like all this stuff out there

00:01:01.360 and I'm just going to go online and say, hey, listen, calm it.

00:01:03.800 Let's think this through.

00:01:04.740 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:17.520 I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:18.800 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:01:19.940 And this is the show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:25.200 Our terrific guest today is a former Deputy Prime Minister of Australia

00:01:28.400 who's now become a YouTuber.

00:01:29.760 How far he has fallen, John Anderson.

00:01:32.040 Welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:33.360 It's fantastic to be with you both.

00:01:35.460 Oh, it's so great to have you on the show.

00:01:36.960 You've interviewed me a couple of times.

00:01:38.580 We've met.

00:01:39.120 We know each other well.

00:01:40.520 Welcome to the show, first of all.

00:01:42.440 For anyone who's not familiar with you,

00:01:44.200 you host a brilliant YouTube show called Conversations,

00:01:47.080 which is what we tried to do here.

00:01:48.900 But tell everybody, who are you?

00:01:50.540 How are you?

00:01:51.060 Where you are?

00:01:51.380 What has been your journey through life?

00:01:52.760 Because you've done a hell of a lot of things,

00:01:54.720 many of them very interesting.

00:01:56.580 Well, I'm actually a farmer by background.

00:01:58.240 Under an Australian farming terminology,

00:02:00.460 I suppose I'm a farmer and grazing cropping and animals.

00:02:05.040 And, you know, I sometimes quip that when I'm out on the farm,

00:02:08.140 people say, I can't see you in a suit.

00:02:09.520 And when I look like this, they say, oh, you're not a farmer.

00:02:12.340 You know, you're something dreadful like a banker or a lawyer or whatever.

00:02:15.500 So I'm a bit schizophrenic.

00:02:17.620 But I'm a sixth generation on the land in Australia,

00:02:21.140 Scottish extraction and a product of the University of Sydney,

00:02:27.140 a lover of history and of public life, fascinates me,

00:02:31.360 a great devotee of the democratic tradition and, frankly,

00:02:35.700 of a mixed market economy, controlled capitalism, I suppose you'd say.

00:02:41.820 I found myself in public life more by accident than design.

00:02:46.000 I'd never gone looking for it.

00:02:47.120 I was talked into it, literally talked into it.

00:02:50.020 And if you'd told me when I was young,

00:02:51.740 I'd end up having ten years as a cabinet minister

00:02:54.540 and six as deputy prime minister,

00:02:56.080 I would have said you had rocks in your head

00:02:58.480 and a lot of people would probably still say it should never have happened,

00:03:01.820 but it did.

00:03:03.320 And I left at a time when Australia was in a purple patch.

00:03:07.560 It was going really well.

00:03:09.360 And I'd had enough of public life.

00:03:11.140 I wanted some family life back.

00:03:12.860 I wanted to go back to farming.

00:03:15.160 And then the great financial crisis hit.

00:03:18.000 And I saw the fissures in Western society because,

00:03:21.560 A, it should never have happened and, B, when it had,

00:03:23.780 we wouldn't accept our responsibilities to clean up the mess,

00:03:27.100 pay down all the debt, engage in good policy to restore our strength.

00:03:31.620 And I'm talking the West generally.

00:03:33.300 I'm, frankly, talking about my own country.

00:03:35.100 I'm talking about America, Canada, Britain in particular,

00:03:37.980 Europe as well.

00:03:38.660 And so a friend and I started our series of conversations.

00:03:44.720 And the idea is more than anything else is just to provide a conduit

00:03:50.040 for good thinking so I don't have a model where I sort of interrupt

00:03:54.380 or try to interfere or play any entrapment games.

00:03:58.400 Let the audience, let those who listen do their own interpreting.

00:04:02.160 What's the idea?

00:04:02.880 It's to encourage thinking because we're doing too much emoting at the moment.

00:04:08.940 Well, that's something we're definitely going to get into.

00:04:11.400 But, John, one of the things that you and I have often talked about

00:04:14.120 and Francis and I were very keen to ask you about is we've talked many times

00:04:18.920 about the fact that there's a culture of victimhood wallowing

00:04:22.600 in terrible, bad things that our countries did

00:04:25.520 and also in our own personal lives.

00:04:27.060 And you're actually somebody who as a child experienced an awful lot

00:04:30.340 of tragedy, didn't you?

00:04:32.140 I did, yes.

00:04:33.440 Yeah.

00:04:33.960 Would you mind telling us about that and how you overcame that

00:04:36.520 and how you went on to be who you are?

00:04:38.740 Well, that's really a story of personal faith.

00:04:40.540 So if you're up for it, I'll give you the encapsulated version.

00:04:43.460 We are, so we're going to get the punishment we deserve.

00:04:46.260 Yeah.

00:04:46.400 I suppose in a way the point of the story is to say we're very judgmental

00:04:52.940 when we say you're a victim and you're not a victim because we don't know

00:04:55.760 what other people have been through, you know?

00:04:58.220 I mean, I don't know what tough times and, you know,

00:05:01.000 I know a little of your story back in Russia.

00:05:03.200 That wasn't easy, you know?

00:05:04.280 And people could say, oh, look at this privileged Westerner in London

00:05:06.800 living it up and he's got millions of followers.

00:05:09.200 So in my case, my parents' lives badly interrupted,

00:05:12.880 badly by the Second World War.

00:05:15.200 So marriage was very delayed for them.

00:05:17.300 I was born ten years after the war.

00:05:18.800 I'm a mid-baby Burma.

00:05:20.120 My mother died very shortly afterwards of undiagnosed stomach cancer,

00:05:24.520 leaving my sister and me as very young.

00:05:27.180 And that was very tough for my father, really tough.

00:05:29.940 I mean, we lived in a fairly isolated part of Australia.

00:05:33.620 Anyway, we were sent off to boarding school because that's what you had to do

00:05:37.820 when you got to age 11 or 12 in Sydney.

00:05:40.520 And home on holidays.

00:05:41.580 My father was a very gifted sportsman.

00:05:46.880 So every afternoon, he was a good dad in this sense.

00:05:50.320 We'd go off target practising.

00:05:52.940 We had a rabbit plague in Australia.

00:05:55.180 So we'd be popping off rabbits along the creeks.

00:05:58.560 Or we'd be boxing.

00:05:59.620 He was a brilliant boxer.

00:06:01.040 Or we'd be playing cricket because he was a brilliant cricketer.

00:06:05.060 Staggeringly good eye for a ball.

00:06:06.840 And as a teenager, we were practising cricket during one Easter break

00:06:12.440 and I was belting my father all over the place.

00:06:17.000 And he had that smile that a father gets when he sees his kids really latched

00:06:21.320 on to something.

00:06:22.440 And then it all went horribly, horribly wrong.

00:06:24.740 And I hit a six and my slightly younger sister, we were very close in age,

00:06:32.040 was watching from the sidelines a long way away playing with a cat.

00:06:35.720 And she looked up and saw my six-stitcher coming straight for her

00:06:38.700 and instinctively turned away.

00:06:41.540 And the ball caught her in the back of the neck.

00:06:43.700 And she staggered a few feet towards my father and cooled out and died.

00:06:49.800 And that was an extraordinary experience that very few people go through

00:06:53.960 where you've been the innocent cause of someone else's death.

00:06:58.600 And I was innocent.

00:06:59.740 And I don't say for a moment I had a guilt-hub hangover.

00:07:02.200 Just the utter misery of going to a place where you think,

00:07:06.220 no matter how nice people are to me, they don't know what this is like

00:07:08.640 because so few people have been there.

00:07:10.380 And where your childhood just ends and it impacts your sense of humour.

00:07:15.140 So I love other people with a sense of humour.

00:07:17.020 But I'm very aware that I didn't practise mine very well as a young person.

00:07:20.960 And I had to go looking for answers to the big questions.

00:07:23.720 I couldn't avoid them.

00:07:24.620 They were there.

00:07:25.440 And I thought this is either going to sink me or I'm going to find a resolution,

00:07:29.460 find a way through.

00:07:30.880 And for me that was the source really, from a thoroughly secular family,

00:07:37.280 I suppose you'd say, of me coming to personal faith as a Christian believer

00:07:40.360 Wow.

00:07:42.140 And was that then, your faith, a platform for you to be able to go and succeed in life?

00:07:50.020 Has your faith always been the bedrock for you?

00:07:53.560 I think the answer to that is yes.

00:07:55.820 And I think in many ways the thing it's done most for me,

00:08:01.000 against the grain of my own nature,

00:08:02.880 I think is to say that my neighbour matters and that I should be careful,

00:08:13.180 not about so much judging their actions sometimes.

00:08:15.900 I think you can be as tough as you like in saying to others,

00:08:18.660 I think that's a bad thing to do, but not to write them off as people

00:08:22.280 and to say that if I matter,

00:08:25.300 because part of this journey for me was to discover that this was not the way

00:08:28.880 it was meant to be.

00:08:29.620 God intended things to be better.

00:08:31.520 That's my belief.

00:08:32.680 That's standard Christian belief.

00:08:34.260 We broke it by our own selfishness.

00:08:37.140 But as part of that, the deep desire to see others flourish

00:08:43.340 and to participate in a society where you're building,

00:08:47.220 not tearing down, became a very strong motivation for me.

00:08:51.880 And I sometimes think to myself, I feel the hurt of unwarranted,

00:08:58.080 I've never had much trouble coping with deserved criticism.

00:09:01.160 But when it's undeserved or unfair or unjustified

00:09:03.840 or people impute wrong motivation for me,

00:09:06.620 I've always found that hard because quirkily enough,

00:09:10.300 I've actually been very deeply committed to the idea

00:09:12.660 of trying to help build a better world.

00:09:14.360 I find that response quite surprising, John,

00:09:17.480 because you're saying that you find undeserved criticism difficult

00:09:21.260 to deal with and yet you went into politics.

00:09:25.580 Yeah.

00:09:26.480 Well, it's a good point.

00:09:29.220 Yeah.

00:09:29.720 But I think the point I would make is that when I copped flack

00:09:32.840 for something I'd got wrong, you know, I'd be remorseful

00:09:36.640 and tail between the leg and what have you,

00:09:38.520 but I could cope with it better than when somebody made an accusation

00:09:43.320 that was just false or wrong or imputed to me, you know,

00:09:48.600 motivations that I felt were unfair, you know, base motivations.

00:09:53.840 And sometimes I'd have to pull myself up and say,

00:09:56.060 actually, this is saying a lot more about them than it is about me.

00:09:59.360 And, John, as we sit here recording this,

00:10:01.100 we've just spent a few weeks in America,

00:10:02.820 and in America people are very comfortable expressing

00:10:06.400 their religious faith openly.

00:10:09.100 But with you I sense a hesitation.

00:10:10.620 Is that just because you're sitting here with two filthy agnostics?

00:10:14.280 Or is there, are we now, you know, in Australia and Britain,

00:10:18.020 are we a little bit more hesitant perhaps to talk about things like that,

00:10:22.100 do you think?

00:10:22.920 Look, it is a fair bit of that.

00:10:24.140 No, it's not you guys.

00:10:25.080 I know you and trust you and care enough about you to know

00:10:27.940 that anything you throw at me will be good-natured.

00:10:31.420 It will, won't it?

00:10:33.900 He doesn't know you that well.

00:10:35.220 No, he doesn't.

00:10:36.120 I've got a division here, you know.

00:10:37.460 Politicians always look for division.

00:10:39.120 I'm an ex-politician.

00:10:40.040 Yeah.

00:10:42.800 Look, I'm just aware that my story can be, you know,

00:10:45.980 it's a hard one to tell.

00:10:48.080 It is, to talk about those things openly.

00:10:50.120 I'll tell you partly why I do it.

00:10:52.520 More recently, it's because I've seen Jordan Peterson addressing packed houses

00:10:57.460 of mainly younger people.

00:10:59.440 And I've noticed that young men in particular respond when he tells them

00:11:03.400 that life's tough and it's gritty and don't pretend otherwise and that truth,

00:11:10.260 I think his line is, truth is the antidote to suffering.

00:11:12.680 And as I've watched in Australia those young men responding to him,

00:11:16.380 I'm thinking they're wanting what I would say is a real steak, not thin gruel.

00:11:21.140 They're wanting to know other people's experiences.

00:11:24.840 They want to know the unvarnished truth.

00:11:28.100 And I suppose that's part of why I tell it.

00:11:33.880 But the other part of it is that I know that a lot of people particularly,

00:11:36.960 not so much in America but in Australia and in Britain,

00:11:39.480 will say, oh, we've moved on from that.

00:11:42.600 You know, John, you're just being superstitious.

00:11:44.480 It's rubbish and so forth.

00:11:45.480 But to me it is the core of my being.

00:11:47.760 I had to answer three very tough questions after that.

00:11:50.380 What is this suffering?

00:11:51.700 Why is suffering so real, you know?

00:11:56.000 And secondly, does anybody care?

00:11:57.860 Does anybody understand?

00:11:59.740 And thirdly, will the wounds be bound up?

00:12:02.680 Will there be joy?

00:12:04.940 And I think the answer to those three questions in short or other is,

00:12:08.700 no, this is not the way it was meant to be but we broke the world.

00:12:12.800 And people will sort of say, what are you talking about,

00:12:14.780 original sin?

00:12:15.520 And I suppose, yes, I am.

00:12:17.640 And it's not a complete explanation.

00:12:19.340 In my case, why did I live and my sister not live?

00:12:21.940 I don't know.

00:12:22.920 I hope I may know one day.

00:12:24.560 But here's the point.

00:12:26.340 What would really kill me would be the idea to think it was just totally random.

00:12:30.000 No purpose.

00:12:30.740 You just have all this pain because that's the way life is

00:12:33.260 and that was the way it was always meant to be.

00:12:35.260 No, I don't believe it was meant to be like that.

00:12:37.700 Secondly, can it be restored?

00:12:39.080 Does anybody care can it be restored, second part of the triangle?

00:12:42.660 Well, I believe yes.

00:12:43.700 I do believe the Christian message of redemption.

00:12:46.700 I do believe that the most central figure in history is Christ

00:12:52.260 and he suffered in every way, in a way that's beyond anything I might suffer.

00:12:58.640 A new alienation and rejection by his friends more than anything I might know.

00:13:02.400 So he can identify.

00:13:05.900 And because of his actions, I do believe the words can be bound up

00:13:10.960 and that there is hope.

00:13:12.560 And I look around and I see a desperate lack of hope.

00:13:16.060 It really, really troubles me.

00:13:18.280 I used to see it all the time as an MP in the really disadvantaged parts of my electorate,

00:13:23.100 including, and this is a sensitive issue in Australia, amongst Indigenous kids.

00:13:26.780 And I'd see them in the school and their lives being, you know, pissed up against the wall

00:13:32.100 by what was happening at home, in their community, and I'm sorry to say it,

00:13:37.520 even in the schools, despite well-meaning teachers,

00:13:39.900 and you think this is just a dead-end street.

00:13:41.920 No wonder they've got no hope.

00:13:43.920 And hope is so important.

00:13:45.260 We don't talk about it enough.

00:13:46.480 No, we don't.

00:13:47.100 And with that religious bit that we just did, we lost all our British audience.

00:13:51.640 But welcome, Americans.

00:13:52.740 It's good to have you on board.

00:13:54.120 There must be some Brits that have started.

00:13:55.640 I'm kidding.

00:13:56.560 Six of them.

00:13:57.840 Exactly.

00:13:58.760 Name them.

00:13:59.840 You can just write a list down.

00:14:02.060 But, you know, the other thing I think about, you know,

00:14:04.120 I don't know if I'm projecting this onto you,

00:14:05.880 but I think you come from a generation, us less so,

00:14:09.220 but still where the idea of talking about difficult things that you've experienced,

00:14:13.120 it wasn't really the done thing.

00:14:14.900 No, that's right.

00:14:15.960 But I do start to get the sense that, as you say, Jordan Peterson and others,

00:14:20.040 and, you know, I tried to do a bit of this in my Oxford speech as well,

00:14:22.660 which we've talked about privately,

00:14:24.120 to give some examples that are much more real rather than sort of theory

00:14:28.240 and talk about the difficulties that we all go through.

00:14:31.620 See, it's very easy for people to look at me and my wife and my kids

00:14:34.860 and grandkids and say, it's all picture perfect.

00:14:37.140 That's right.

00:14:37.720 That's where I was going.

00:14:39.260 Sorry.

00:14:39.780 No, no, that's where I was going.

00:14:41.020 Tell me more.

00:14:42.400 Well, that's partly why I want to say to people,

00:14:45.100 look, can we draw alongside?

00:14:49.700 And I want to acknowledge that you're doing it tough

00:14:52.760 and I don't want you to think that I haven't known what it is

00:14:55.540 to have to ask the big questions just because, you know,

00:14:59.520 I, in many ways materially, I've never wanted for any of you.

00:15:03.060 You know, I've been very fortunate in that regard.

00:15:04.720 But life's about much more than that.

00:15:08.040 And, you know, this business of creating victims selected,

00:15:11.960 very carefully selected victims who are then weaponised,

00:15:15.300 that is such a feature of our modern so-called progressive society.

00:15:20.520 And we say we care.

00:15:21.940 Do we?

00:15:22.320 And when we carefully select our victims and we say,

00:15:27.760 this is the Jordan Peterson thing,

00:15:29.120 so when you see him in front of an audience of hundreds

00:15:31.240 and hundreds of young people and they're all there

00:15:33.800 because he's not saying, your masculinity's toxic,

00:15:37.100 you're toxic just because you're a young Australian male,

00:15:40.920 which is the message they're getting.

00:15:43.920 You know, that's what they're hearing.

00:15:45.740 And he's saying to them, you know, that's not right.

00:15:47.980 A, I don't think a victim culture is going to fix your problems.

00:15:51.120 And B, life is tough.

00:15:53.980 Let me acknowledge that.

00:15:56.020 So then we can talk.

00:15:58.460 Because life does present us with big challenges,

00:16:01.640 not just material.

00:16:03.080 I agree with you.

00:16:03.820 It presents us with huge challenges.

00:16:05.440 And one of the big challenges that it's presenting us with

00:16:08.500 is politics does seem to be broken at the moment, John.

00:16:12.360 And as somebody who used to work in politics,

00:16:15.000 what's going wrong with it now?

00:16:16.900 We had a member when I was in the parliament

00:16:18.700 and whenever a constituent asked him something,

00:16:22.900 he'd say, I'll bring it up in the house.

00:16:25.180 So they called him Spiri.

00:16:26.620 And when they realised that he realised he was being called Spiri,

00:16:29.980 he changed it.

00:16:30.620 He said, I'll look into it.

00:16:32.380 So they called him Mirror.

00:16:35.700 Now, what's the point of that yarn?

00:16:37.280 The point of that yarn is that what I think we miss

00:16:39.760 is that in the democratic tradition,

00:16:42.860 which I say we're privileged to live in,

00:16:45.460 in the West, I know people are losing confidence in it.

00:16:47.740 Now, young people especially, democratic capitalism,

00:16:51.060 they're not invested in it anymore

00:16:52.160 because it's not working for them well.

00:16:53.840 And there's a bit of truth in that

00:16:55.020 and we ought to be honest about it.

00:16:56.560 But I think what we're missing is that when we say

00:16:58.820 our politicians are behaving disgracefully

00:17:01.040 and that it's all so broken,

00:17:03.200 they're just reflecting the society that's voting them in.

00:17:06.200 We're missing that.

00:17:06.960 It's telling us something about our own society.

00:17:10.600 And I'll tell you one of the biggest things it's telling us.

00:17:12.400 We're raising our kids in contradistinction to the way

00:17:16.560 that I was raised.

00:17:17.440 Not all that.

00:17:18.120 I mean, I know I've got grey hair and I'm older than you guys,

00:17:20.280 but in the great scheme of things,

00:17:21.600 it's not all that long ago.

00:17:22.500 I was educated in the 60s and 70s.

00:17:24.700 And a big part of the education was don't think you're more special

00:17:28.420 than the person sitting on the desk next to you in the classroom.

00:17:30.860 Now it's you're the centre of your universe, if not the universe.

00:17:35.240 You know, it's all about you.

00:17:37.200 You know, the whole radical autonomy idea.

00:17:40.780 And find yourself from within and go out and be your own God.

00:17:44.860 But when we see it in our leaders up on the stage

00:17:47.320 and we say they seem to think it's more about them.

00:17:49.360 No, it's not.

00:17:49.960 They should be serving us.

00:17:52.240 Hang on.

00:17:53.460 They're actually mirroring us.

00:17:55.860 That's what we've become.

00:17:56.580 Why should we be surprised?

00:17:57.840 And look at the way the Queen's Memorial Service,

00:18:01.900 I don't know how they work these things out,

00:18:03.400 but apparently it was watched by four billion people.

00:18:05.760 She's hugely admired.

00:18:07.680 How would you describe her leadership?

00:18:09.240 It was servant leadership.

00:18:10.940 And when we see it, we say, yeah, that's right.

00:18:13.160 That's the way it ought to be.

00:18:14.700 She was committed to working hard for us.

00:18:18.020 A lifetime of dedicated service to others.

00:18:20.560 You can't escape it.

00:18:21.780 And we admire her hugely for it.

00:18:23.780 And we're not seeing that in enough of our politicians.

00:18:26.140 I'm not going to blackguard them all.

00:18:27.520 I know some very good ones, I really do,

00:18:30.240 who are genuinely trying to make a difference.

00:18:33.400 But there are too many of them now that are there about power.

00:18:38.280 And that's the other problem you have.

00:18:39.940 You know, when you've got no God over government,

00:18:41.660 government becomes God and the people in it become about power

00:18:45.080 and principle disappears.

00:18:47.540 So we used to argue on principle sometimes for minority groups increasingly.

00:18:52.560 And unfortunately, it hurts me to say this a bit,

00:18:56.860 but I think it probably applies to politicians on both sides of the aisle all too often.

00:19:01.180 It's really about power.

00:19:04.020 And that's, we don't like that.

00:19:05.400 And we shouldn't like it.

00:19:06.780 We should be worried about it.

00:19:08.440 That's why our forebears set all these checks and balances in place.

00:19:14.000 As one person said of democracy in America,

00:19:17.700 we're so good we had to give ourselves the vote.

00:19:19.880 You know, we recognise the dignity and the worth of everyone.

00:19:22.600 We're so bad we had to give ourselves the vote.

00:19:25.100 We need a peaceful means of breaking up power and ensuring that no one can hold it for too long

00:19:30.060 that we can arrange for changing our leaders at the point of a pencil, not a gun.

00:19:35.360 And we ought to be in love with that system.

00:19:38.760 But we've got this double-sided problem.

00:19:41.580 We keep promoting the wrong people and then they keep doing the wrong thing

00:19:44.580 and we all get more and more cynical.

00:19:46.540 But isn't it also the problem as well, John,

00:19:48.660 in that we have become a society that is pleasure-seeking.

00:19:53.540 We love pleasure.

00:19:54.300 We don't want to endure a moment of discomfort.

00:19:56.720 But that being the case, what do you do as a politician

00:20:01.560 when you've got some uncomfortable truths you need to tell people about their society

00:20:06.500 and particularly, let's be honest, about the economic situation we find ourselves in?

00:20:10.320 I couldn't agree with you more.

00:20:11.920 I think this is a really serious problem.

00:20:13.880 That was hard.

00:20:14.540 I didn't pad it out much.

00:20:15.740 But back home I've got this conversation series and, Constantine,

00:20:19.280 you've been on it and we've just loved having you.

00:20:21.120 And, you know, we've got this whole sort of problem of trying to get people

00:20:27.700 to think a little bit more deeply about tomorrow.

00:20:33.100 And this business of living way beyond our means, you know,

00:20:38.740 we're borrowing not just against our children but against the unborn

00:20:42.000 as that doesn't matter.

00:20:43.620 We matter more than they do.

00:20:45.340 That's not what our forebears said.

00:20:47.160 They were prepared to say we've got to take a long-term view just like parents do.

00:20:52.740 You've got a little boy now, Constantine, which I think is fantastic.

00:20:56.900 Try and convince him to have some kids.

00:20:59.520 Yeah, Britain, you need to get your population rate up, you know.

00:21:02.660 Nobody's worked it out yet but there's a depopulation bomb about to hit most of the world,

00:21:06.440 not Africa and not some parts of the Middle East, maybe South America,

00:21:09.460 but everywhere else.

00:21:10.980 And it's going to be a real problem.

00:21:12.620 But we're not invested in the future.

00:21:15.740 And being invested in the future means family and kids actually matter.

00:21:19.000 And you now know very deeply what you'd do for your boy.

00:21:23.540 And that other-person-centeredness is something that we really need to learn

00:21:28.900 very deeply if cultures like ours are to survive and thrive.

00:21:32.220 Isn't that amazing, John, that, you know, the vast majority of people in this country,

00:21:38.700 in Australia, in America, where this is happening, are parents.

00:21:42.580 And yet we are consciously, as a society, saddling our own children and, as you say,

00:21:48.540 unborn grandchildren with...

00:21:50.600 If you said to me, Constantine, are you prepared to saddle your son

00:21:54.900 with hundreds of thousands of pounds of debt

00:21:57.920 for your own immediate satisfaction, pleasure, whatever,

00:22:01.640 so you can have a nicer house?

00:22:03.260 I don't think there's a parent in the world who would do that.

00:22:05.740 Very few, I imagine, I hope so.

00:22:08.000 Yet, as a society, that is exactly what we're doing.

00:22:11.400 Yeah, but this is part of the problem.

00:22:12.440 We're emoting everything.

00:22:13.780 I feel I need more support from the government.

00:22:16.520 But I don't think, on the other hand, that it's actually other taxpayers' money.

00:22:20.640 And that it's now being borrowed.

00:22:22.920 And that that money's got to be serviced.

00:22:24.780 The fastest-growing area...

00:22:26.840 I was part of a government that left Australia with no debt

00:22:29.240 and money in the bank.

00:22:31.700 I was one of the five people co-opted by the then Prime Minister in 1996,

00:22:36.160 going, wind back the deficits, and then we'll see if we can pay down the debt.

00:22:39.160 We got rid of the lot over 11 years, left money in the bank.

00:22:42.540 And now that's been largely squandered, and so we've got a big debt again.

00:22:47.540 And I find that extraordinary because it is really impacting on taxpayers today

00:22:54.420 and our children because the fastest-growing area of expenditure in Australia

00:22:58.280 is the interest on the debt.

00:22:59.720 So the taxpayers have got to find a whole heap of money before you build a hospital

00:23:04.560 or pay nurses or provide police or buy a destroyer for the Navy.

00:23:10.380 Before you do anything, you've got to fork out a whole lot of hard-earned money.

00:23:16.140 And our kids and our grandkids, if we don't rein this in,

00:23:20.500 we'll have to fork out even more.

00:23:22.180 And it says something very profound about our culture

00:23:27.300 that we've reached that point where it doesn't matter.

00:23:29.780 I couldn't agree more.

00:23:30.780 And this brings us to a question I was going to ask you

00:23:32.940 because the government that you were part of and your political career

00:23:36.200 all happened pre the social media age.

00:23:39.220 Yeah.

00:23:39.420 And I can't help thinking that social media has been a huge part

00:23:45.920 of what you're talking about

00:23:48.360 because social media rewards things that sound good but don't work in practice.

00:23:54.000 Social media encourages not just, you know, politics has always been adversarial,

00:23:59.300 and that's a good thing in a liberal society.

00:24:01.560 You want different points of view.

00:24:03.720 But it's not adversarial anymore.

00:24:05.960 It's now hostile.

00:24:08.220 You are the enemy because you're on the right,

00:24:10.360 and I am the enemy because I'm on the left.

00:24:12.140 And the point of speaking in public now in a parliament

00:24:16.880 is no longer about persuading or articulating a principal point of view.

00:24:22.320 It's about getting a good clip for social media

00:24:24.520 which shows you destroying the evil, bigoted or stupid or whatever the other side.

00:24:29.280 How much of this do you think is a product

00:24:31.180 of the changing technological landscape?

00:24:34.200 I have in the past often just said,

00:24:36.600 look, all it's been is an amplifier of trends that were there.

00:24:39.460 But I'm increasingly thinking that it's been a part of the problem,

00:24:42.400 a bigger and bigger part of the problem in its own right.

00:24:45.920 And an example that really occurs to me is the issue of free speech.

00:24:49.680 Now, they tell me in America that majority support for free speech

00:24:54.140 on American campuses, you can actually went to minority speech

00:25:00.680 about 10 years ago, about 2013, 14.

00:25:03.440 How on earth can you say it was such a narrow period of time,

00:25:07.200 leaving alone the questions of why it happened?

00:25:09.780 It's got to be largely social media because so many people use that ability

00:25:13.360 to hit others without a sense of responsibility and respect

00:25:16.740 that suddenly people are saying, I've been destroyed

00:25:20.360 or my friends have been destroyed or I'm terrified of being destroyed

00:25:23.340 by the way people use this thing.

00:25:25.900 Therefore, let's abandon free speech and say it should only be appropriate speech.

00:25:32.140 And in a way, you can understand it.

00:25:33.560 An old cynic like me says, good grief, don't you understand?

00:25:36.060 That means some Orwellian vision and someone out there

00:25:38.840 will determine what's appropriate.

00:25:40.380 But they're not thinking that, many of them.

00:25:42.280 They'd be thinking, I just want some protection from the possibility

00:25:45.900 of being torn apart.

00:25:47.080 So we're not using the technology wisely.

00:25:49.660 We're using it to feed our worst instincts in an age

00:25:52.860 when we've lost respect for one another.

00:25:55.640 And it's the old, you know, the old, it's clichéd, I know,

00:25:59.840 and it's attributed to Voltaire and it wasn't him.

00:26:02.120 But, you know, I may disagree with you, but I'll defend

00:26:04.460 to the death you're right to say.

00:26:05.700 It's now, if you dare to disagree with me, I'll do everything I can

00:26:08.700 to destroy you.

00:26:09.560 And they are polar opposites.

00:26:13.000 And until we can recover some common understanding

00:26:16.740 of our shared humanity.

00:26:19.200 You see, one of the things that I've really noticed

00:26:21.420 in politics in Australia, I used to have some really spirited

00:26:26.960 but enjoyable conversations with people who had a totally

00:26:29.580 different worldview to me.

00:26:31.040 But in their own way, they were noble.

00:26:32.660 They wanted to build a better way as they saw it.

00:26:34.800 And I'm talking about, you know, people from the serious left.

00:26:38.820 As the left was then, it was about universalism.

00:26:41.840 Let's lift the disadvantaged up so they're part of the family.

00:26:45.300 And some of those people will say now their own movement is so distorted.

00:26:49.140 It's now about creating an aristocracy of victims

00:26:51.540 and then weaponising them.

00:26:53.320 It's never about solving their problems.

00:26:54.860 Because if you solve their problems, they're not victims.

00:26:56.600 And you've lost your weapon.

00:26:57.400 And what a terrible thing to do to other people.

00:27:01.640 And somehow we've got to rebuild that respect.

00:27:05.040 And it's the same with something like private property.

00:27:08.140 We should respect, I mean, the four freedoms, free speech,

00:27:10.820 to my way of thinking, freedom of conscience and belief,

00:27:13.040 freedom to associate, and freedom to own private property,

00:27:16.280 including your intellectual prowess, you know?

00:27:20.520 You're using yours highly.

00:27:21.660 In fact, it's yours.

00:27:22.600 It's not for a government to come along and shut you down

00:27:25.900 or take away your private property or whatever.

00:27:28.920 It's yours to use wisely.

00:27:30.880 Well, you know, weaken any of those freedoms and you weaken them all.

00:27:34.460 It's like a four-legged stool, you know?

00:27:36.140 You break one and the stool will fall over.

00:27:39.340 But we don't talk like that anymore.

00:27:41.620 And Australia in particular has fallen victim to this,

00:27:45.020 which I know, because when I was growing up,

00:27:47.260 I saw these Aussie blokes as being these kind of ruggedly masculine,

00:27:51.580 dare I say, too masculine, right?

00:27:54.320 Loving a punch-up and a beer and whatever else.

00:27:57.020 And now you've got Melbourne, which, I mean,

00:27:59.860 is it the wokest place on earth practically?

00:28:03.740 Well, there are regional differences in Australia.

00:28:07.480 I don't live in Melbourne, all right?

00:28:10.140 The politicians come out.

00:28:12.420 No, I don't think that's it.

00:28:13.920 I'm kidding.

00:28:14.520 I'm kidding.

00:28:16.420 Yeah, well, you know, it is extraordinary.

00:28:18.400 I was in America recently and I had a two-hour interview

00:28:21.720 with Patrick Bette-Davis in Miami and he called the show

00:28:26.280 Whatever Happened to the Australians.

00:28:29.040 And I don't know how many Australians understand that, you know,

00:28:32.660 that we've got this image now around the world of the most severe lockdowns

00:28:36.600 and you're going to only walk for an hour a day.

00:28:38.520 Well, why not, you know, an hour and one minute, you know?

00:28:41.060 And why not five and a half kilometres away from home instead of five kilometres

00:28:44.620 and then, you know, pregnant women being dragged away by police and what have you.

00:28:48.740 One Facebook post and this pregnant woman is now in deep trouble.

00:28:53.720 You're under arrest in relation to incitement.

00:28:56.820 Incitement?

00:28:57.320 Yeah.

00:28:57.920 What the...

00:28:58.520 What on earth?

00:28:59.620 Excuse me, what on earth?

00:29:01.600 Just put your phone down.

00:29:02.820 Can you, like, record this?

00:29:04.340 I'm in my pyjamas.

00:29:05.080 What's this?

00:29:05.540 I had an ultrasound in an hour.

00:29:06.820 Yeah, she's pregnant, so...

00:29:09.020 I'll take it easy.

00:29:10.300 What's this about?

00:29:11.180 I had an ultrasound in an hour.

00:29:13.680 Let me finish and I'll explain.

00:29:14.980 In relation to a Facebook post, in relation to a lockdown protest,

00:29:19.320 that's why I'm arresting you, in relation to...

00:29:21.420 How can you arrest her?

00:29:22.900 In front of my two children.

00:29:24.460 She could face a jail sentence of up to 15 years.

00:29:28.660 But they voted for more of it.

00:29:30.220 Sort of Stockholm Syndrome, you know?

00:29:31.900 The regime that put it in place has been subjected to an election

00:29:35.640 and they won it again, partly because the opposition

00:29:38.040 didn't stand for enough, but partly because people...

00:29:41.460 Who was the American forefather?

00:29:42.740 I think it was Benjamin Franklin, that people who become afraid

00:29:45.880 and go looking for security over freedom are worthy of neither.

00:29:49.760 I think we've lost sight of how valuable freedom we are,

00:29:53.480 which is why I've enjoyed my conversation so much, Constantine,

00:29:56.740 with you as we've talked in the past about your home environment

00:30:02.160 and you've written this marvellous book, which I really...

00:30:06.820 You sent it to me and I really...

00:30:08.520 You know, it survived the British and Australian mail system.

00:30:11.180 It arrived at home on my farm in north-west New South Wales

00:30:13.960 and I read it and I thought, isn't this terrific?

00:30:16.820 Because you can see, as so often those who are sitting in the luxury spot

00:30:21.540 when everything else seems comfortable,

00:30:23.980 how our own slothfulness is placing at risk the very things that we enjoy.

00:30:29.360 Well, it's very kind of you and I've just started writing my second book,

00:30:32.560 so I look forward to sending you that as well.

00:30:34.920 It may not arrive after this conversation.

00:30:36.600 It may not.

00:30:37.400 But come back with me to the social media conversation

00:30:40.180 because you're one of the few people...

00:30:41.540 We avoid having politicians on the show

00:30:43.200 because increasingly it's hard to get a straight answer out of them.

00:30:45.760 So do I.

00:30:46.460 Well, I'm sure you do.

00:30:47.540 And I have been on.

00:30:48.020 Tell us why.

00:30:48.680 Tell us why you avoid having politicians.

00:30:50.500 Look, in my case it's largely because if I have one on,

00:30:53.060 there'll be others who will want to and I don't particularly...

00:30:56.300 Because, you know, I'm obviously very close to some of them still.

00:30:59.360 And I have, you know, people that I talk to all the time

00:31:01.920 and they kindly ring and say, you tried.

00:31:04.380 Some of them are wise enough to actually say,

00:31:06.300 there's nothing new under the sun, John.

00:31:07.740 I think you might have tried this.

00:31:09.020 What happened?

00:31:10.300 You know, if only more of them did it.

00:31:12.360 Because very often it's not me being clever.

00:31:14.100 I was just saying, yeah, sure, we tried that

00:31:15.500 and here's where it went wrong.

00:31:16.620 Right.

00:31:17.140 And all that experience is washed out of the system.

00:31:19.040 We used to listen to...

00:31:20.620 Can I call myself an elder?

00:31:22.140 I'm old.

00:31:22.760 I don't know whether I can call myself an elder.

00:31:24.040 I certainly wouldn't.

00:31:24.760 Well, no, rather, what, the old bit or elder?

00:31:28.520 Anyway.

00:31:30.760 But, you know, the other reason is that, you know,

00:31:35.160 I'm trying to provide a service to some of the good politicians

00:31:37.260 and their staffers because I know a lot of them do listen in in Australia.

00:31:40.960 There'll be a surprising number of people on the hill in Canberra

00:31:44.240 who will listen to this conversation.

00:31:46.500 And that's good.

00:31:49.280 But part of it is I want to be a bit bipartisan about it.

00:31:52.880 So I've spoken to quite a few number,

00:31:54.700 quite a number of ex-politicians that I really respect from both sides,

00:31:59.440 including one from an old-fashioned hard left perspective.

00:32:04.580 But maybe they're just delighted on balance that I don't want them on.

00:32:07.900 Well, that makes sense.

00:32:09.440 For us, the reason we don't is it's hard to get a straight answer

00:32:12.340 out of them quite often.

00:32:13.760 But you are one of the few people that we've ever spoken to on the show

00:32:17.740 who's actually been in a senior leadership position in running a country, right?

00:32:22.740 And the reason I want to talk about social media is, to me,

00:32:26.260 it's the central conundrum, until AI takes over and makes things even worse,

00:32:30.500 the central conundrum of the age that we're living in.

00:32:33.660 And I don't really understand how you might go about addressing that

00:32:38.660 because we talk about free speech,

00:32:41.420 and Francis and I, as you know, are huge believers and I think it's essential.

00:32:44.760 But I'm also increasingly convinced that a free internet

00:32:47.540 of the sort that we had in the early days of the internet

00:32:50.400 is never coming back.

00:32:51.800 It's not going to happen because the technology is too powerful.

00:32:54.720 We saw it during the pandemic when, you know,

00:32:57.140 David Icke says something about how COVID is caused by 5G masks.

00:33:00.620 The next day, you've got people burning things down.

00:33:03.360 Better to be safe than sorry.

00:33:04.500 He's joking, YouTube.

00:33:12.680 But you see what I mean?

00:33:14.340 Yeah.

00:33:14.820 The technology is very powerful.

00:33:16.680 Yes, it is.

00:33:17.180 We saw it, some people would argue, January the 6th is an example of this, right?

00:33:21.840 A thing that's whipped up on the internet,

00:33:24.800 whatever you think happened on that day was not a good thing to have happened,

00:33:28.160 happens in the real world.

00:33:29.800 And it's been happening in Australia on a regular basis.

00:33:32.780 There's a little show somewhere that suddenly gets blown out of all proportion

00:33:36.480 and everyone's polarised and nobody's understood what truly happened.

00:33:39.900 Right.

00:33:40.600 And the politician instinct, I imagine, is to go,

00:33:44.240 well, we must do something about this, right?

00:33:46.960 But what do you do?

00:33:47.920 The moment you start interfering it,

00:33:49.740 some people are going to say, well, you're restricting our free speech.

00:33:52.280 The moment you don't restrict free speech,

00:33:54.700 other people are going to say you're allowing things to happen

00:33:57.200 that are damaging in the real world.

00:33:58.880 You know, suicides and terrible tragedies and, you know,

00:34:03.260 protests that go violent and all of this stuff.

00:34:05.820 How does a political operative look at this problem

00:34:10.760 and actually try to address it?

00:34:12.880 I wish I knew.

00:34:13.960 I don't have a glib answer.

00:34:15.420 I just don't.

00:34:16.680 Because I think, like all technology, the technology itself is neutral.

00:34:20.280 It's morally neutral.

00:34:21.780 It's what you do with it.

00:34:23.140 So that comes down to our sense of responsibility.

00:34:25.900 But we don't talk responsibility anymore.

00:34:28.040 We only talk freedoms and rights.

00:34:30.420 So somehow the answer is – I mean, the only parallel with this

00:34:34.700 is the printing press, which threw Europe into chaos for 100 years.

00:34:38.500 Let's hope this modern version doesn't do the same thing,

00:34:42.780 a modern version of upgraded communications,

00:34:45.100 if I can put it that way.

00:34:46.220 Let's hope we can find a resolution faster than that

00:34:48.280 because it's a fast-moving world and it's very dangerous.

00:34:50.540 And for a long time my view was very much the tech company should be told,

00:34:55.580 well, you're like the postal service and this is a bomb in it, you know.

00:35:00.140 It's got nothing to do with you, what's written in those letters.

00:35:02.900 Nothing to do.

00:35:03.520 You're the carrier.

00:35:04.780 But that's too simplistic as well because the bombs now can be embedded

00:35:08.420 in bad ideas.

00:35:09.960 Who decides what's a bad idea?

00:35:14.580 You're into Orwellian territory before you know it.

00:35:18.420 So I think I'm too old to answer the question.

00:35:21.400 That's a cop-out, I know.

00:35:22.440 There you go.

00:35:23.080 You're probably half expected.

00:35:24.300 But I think the answer long-term has to lie in us accepting –

00:35:28.600 because I think this is a civilisational moment, frankly.

00:35:31.160 I think it's that serious.

00:35:33.140 Why do you think it's a civilisational moment, John?

00:35:36.340 Because I think we're so cynical about the values of the past

00:35:39.340 or so disengaged from them and we've not found any guiding values

00:35:43.060 for the present and this is one of them.

00:35:45.540 And I think a big part of the common cause we made in the past

00:35:49.580 was the respect for people that you disagreed with.

00:35:52.560 The genius of Western society – and Constantine, you know about this

00:35:55.980 because of your own background – was our capacity for people

00:36:00.020 who had very different world views to coexist and to resolve their differences

00:36:05.760 through the political process, through the parliaments and what have you.

00:36:10.440 And the public square, I suppose, it went from being a literal public square

00:36:14.120 and the Aragopolis, if I've said that right, you know, in ancient times,

00:36:18.620 through to our parliaments, then added to by newspapers, then radio, then television.

00:36:24.400 And now the public square is just a chaotic global thing,

00:36:27.820 that the very thing we're talking about, social media, has developed

00:36:31.340 and we have not managed to find some rules for it.

00:36:35.160 But we can draw some principles from the previous ones.

00:36:37.820 If you don't engage respectfully, if you don't think through the issues,

00:36:42.340 if you don't grapple with the facts rather than the emotions,

00:36:47.760 there's your civilisational moment.

00:36:49.700 We're not thinking.

00:36:51.980 We're emoting everything.

00:36:54.460 And that's your classic with social media.

00:36:56.300 We're not thinking about what will it mean if I put this stuff up there.

00:37:01.080 We're thinking about will it give me a hit?

00:37:02.860 Will it make me feel good?

00:37:03.960 Will it destroy someone else?

00:37:06.420 Rather than will it build a stronger society based on respect

00:37:09.800 and regard for one another.

00:37:11.900 It's a pretty boring answer, I know.

00:37:13.500 A little bit.

00:37:14.120 But on the other hand, it's something I increasingly have come to.

00:37:18.480 You know, when we started this, I was quite readily trolling people

00:37:22.900 and making fun and whatever, you know, satirically that's kind of what you're supposed to do.

00:37:26.960 But the longer we go, the more I see the way the world is going

00:37:30.440 and also the bigger my audience grows, I've become far more responsible.

00:37:34.860 And that was the word that you said there, which I think, you know,

00:37:38.160 we always look to government to solve these problems.

00:37:40.180 Actually, it sounds to me like the biggest solution is within every human being,

00:37:44.000 which is to say I am responsible for the things that I'm communicating.

00:37:47.260 And, yes, this device makes me angrier and more hostile and whatever,

00:37:51.580 but it is my duty as a human being to seek to be careful about the way

00:37:57.440 that I use this neutral technology.

00:37:59.900 I think that's right.

00:38:01.140 I think there's another aspect.

00:38:02.440 There's the old Edmund Burke thing, you know,

00:38:04.420 all it takes for evil to prosper is good people to remain silent.

00:38:07.340 So you've got a huge number of people who are disengaged from politics,

00:38:10.740 from public life, from the public square,

00:38:14.240 and they're frightened of going on social media.

00:38:16.340 And what we actually need is more people of balance in the middle,

00:38:19.720 being prepared to say, you know, I don't like all this stuff out there

00:38:23.120 and I'm just going to go online and say, hey, listen, calm it,

00:38:25.560 let's think this through.

00:38:27.100 Because I think there's a bit of a tendency now for people

00:38:29.480 who want to win the battle at the risk of losing the war.

00:38:33.800 You know, we're turning every battle into I've got to win this

00:38:36.460 even if I destroy the other person.

00:38:38.960 But often that's very counterproductive to a harmonious society

00:38:42.820 in which we can all flourish.

00:38:44.180 John, we have now been made to feel guilty

00:38:49.000 for the sins of our ancestors.

00:38:51.740 Yeah.

00:38:52.160 And that has been a recurring theme

00:38:53.680 and it has just erupted over the last couple of years.

00:38:58.580 How has that affected Australia,

00:39:00.240 particularly when it comes to the Indigenous communities?

00:39:02.780 We have the same disease.

00:39:04.500 It's very bad policy to hold someone responsible

00:39:07.320 for what their forebears have done.

00:39:08.680 When you start going down that road, there's no end to the misery

00:39:14.620 we will inflict on one another.

00:39:16.840 And in many ways the greatest problem with it is that you start

00:39:19.960 to withdraw agency.

00:39:22.300 We're talking responsibility.

00:39:24.180 So people fall into, you know, this is your victim culture again.

00:39:27.500 It's identity politics.

00:39:28.480 Oh, it's not my fault that, you know, I'm an abusive man in my home

00:39:34.380 and I'm doing appalling things to, you know, my own children

00:39:38.900 and to the neighbour's children and what have you.

00:39:40.880 I'm a victim of frontier violence or whatever.

00:39:45.140 And just when we're making tremendous progress on,

00:39:48.340 this is the Douglas Murray point, isn't it?

00:39:50.040 Mm-hm.

00:39:50.280 Tremendous progress on a whole lot of these issues.

00:39:53.120 You know, we have moved an incredible distance on the issue of,

00:39:57.600 if you like, overcoming racism, embedded racism and so forth.

00:40:01.340 Incredible distance in my own country.

00:40:03.760 I genuinely believe that.

00:40:06.640 Suddenly, in the eyes of the activists, it's as though, goodness me,

00:40:11.720 as Douglas Murray puts it, the train's coming gently into the stations

00:40:14.880 about to slow down.

00:40:15.980 We've got this all wrong.

00:40:16.980 We've got to put our foot on the throttle and take the train off faster

00:40:20.300 and say that we're more racist than ever.

00:40:23.840 And I do think that's a big part of the problem

00:40:28.020 and it's very easy for people to say, well,

00:40:29.840 I don't have to accept responsibility for my reactions.

00:40:32.100 I'm like this because of what someone else has done to my ancestors,

00:40:36.500 what their ancestors have done to my ancestors.

00:40:39.880 That's hopeless.

00:40:42.100 That's hopeless.

00:40:42.900 We all need to be accountable for the way we treat our fellow human beings now.

00:40:48.760 Because there's a lot of people who go, and there's not even ancestors of people,

00:40:53.160 Aborigines or people from that community will go, look,

00:40:56.660 it's not even that far into the past that we were treated appallingly.

00:41:01.120 So let's, can we have an honest discussion about this?

00:41:03.640 And also let's explode a few myths because there's this perception

00:41:07.280 that Australia is a deeply racist culture and country and et cetera, et cetera.

00:41:11.640 And I think the vast majority of people who say those views

00:41:14.700 don't really know what they're talking about.

00:41:17.320 Well, you could say the same of America.

00:41:19.400 Now, there is racism.

00:41:20.920 I mean, you find it everywhere.

00:41:22.140 But what is racism?

00:41:23.700 It's hatred of another person.

00:41:26.820 What's the difference between hating somebody of your same skin colour

00:41:29.820 and somebody who's not, by the way?

00:41:31.340 And a lot of the people who bandy around this very, very pejorative sort of,

00:41:36.760 you're a racist if you say that, or if you go anywhere,

00:41:39.280 or if you raise that question, they're actually displaying their own level

00:41:43.760 of vitriol and hatred towards another person by refusing to engage with the mind

00:41:49.420 and looking to appeal to raw emotion again.

00:41:53.840 Now, I think that's a real problem.

00:41:55.920 The second thing I would say is that if you look at the amount of resources,

00:42:00.660 the amount of effort, the amount of land title and so forth in Australia

00:42:05.760 that's been made available to Indigenous people.

00:42:08.500 And I want to say, this, Matt, it's quite raw for me.

00:42:11.020 I actually really do care.

00:42:12.820 My family have been enmeshed with Aboriginal people for a long time.

00:42:15.940 One of Australia's most prominent Aboriginals calls me co,

00:42:19.640 which is short for cousin, because he says to me,

00:42:21.900 our families have been intermeshed for so long,

00:42:25.120 and I value his friendship enormously.

00:42:27.160 But, and, you know, I went to school with Aboriginal people

00:42:32.920 and I represented a lot of them.

00:42:35.440 So I actually, I really do care.

00:42:38.220 But what I'm worried about is what our most prominent Aboriginal leader,

00:42:43.760 I suppose you'd say, I think, Noel Pearson,

00:42:45.700 and he and I disagree on a lot of things.

00:42:47.220 But he says, you know, welfare culture has actually destroyed his people.

00:42:50.700 So, but what's that tell you?

00:42:53.820 It means that we've actually been almost too generous.

00:42:57.280 His words, not mine.

00:42:59.280 Secondly, he would say, I don't think I'm misrepresenting him here.

00:43:03.460 You've got to restore agency.

00:43:05.960 You can't indulge the idea that you're a victim

00:43:09.680 of what somebody else's forebears did to your forebears.

00:43:14.660 We are each responsible, you know,

00:43:16.540 and we should be prepared to give account for the way we behave

00:43:20.020 towards other people.

00:43:21.840 So I don't see a lack of generosity in Australians.

00:43:24.480 I see just the opposite.

00:43:26.360 You know, a willingness to spend a very large amount of money,

00:43:29.640 and often it's been misdirected.

00:43:31.500 We know that now.

00:43:32.300 You can't get away from it.

00:43:33.760 Often it's made problems worse.

00:43:36.680 One of our best thinkers,

00:43:38.520 from a very different political perspective to mine,

00:43:42.260 is a man called Peter Sutton,

00:43:43.560 and he wrote recently that the determinant of bad outcomes

00:43:49.000 is to do with family and community environments,

00:43:54.700 not the colour of skin in Australia.

00:43:57.340 And I do believe that to be true.

00:44:00.200 Not to say there aren't major issues.

00:44:02.100 There are.

00:44:03.460 But I think it requires all of us to accept that denying,

00:44:09.600 you know, blaming others all the time.

00:44:13.660 Well, you have a justice system,

00:44:15.260 if it's true, to try and sort it out.

00:44:18.320 But we have to be responsible for our own actions.

00:44:23.380 That being the case,

00:44:24.640 what do you think about this referendum

00:44:26.420 that's appearing on the horizon?

00:44:28.040 I think it's in October, November 2023,

00:44:30.900 which is Aboriginal voice, is it not?

00:44:33.920 Yeah.

00:44:33.960 So just explain to people what it is

00:44:35.660 and whether you agree with it,

00:44:37.320 whether you disagree with it, etc.

00:44:38.580 Well, for a start,

00:44:39.980 it's very hard to define what it is

00:44:41.360 because, in fact,

00:44:43.100 the Prime Minister says it's a modest proposal.

00:44:45.300 It just recognises Aboriginals in the Constitution,

00:44:47.540 for example.

00:44:48.400 The people who have put it together say,

00:44:49.760 no, it's a major proposal

00:44:51.000 which will empower us in a way

00:44:52.980 that we haven't been before.

00:44:55.020 The lawyers are having a picnic

00:44:56.880 because some lawyers are saying this is sound law.

00:44:59.780 Others are saying it will lead to endless activism.

00:45:01.980 I'm simply reporting the facts there.

00:45:03.620 It's very easily checked.

00:45:04.800 There's no agreement on what it is

00:45:06.320 or what impact it will have.

00:45:07.540 But I am opposed to it for three reasons.

00:45:13.160 The first is the reasons I've just given,

00:45:15.460 the denial of agency and what have you,

00:45:17.260 means, and I've had a lot of experience with this,

00:45:19.280 I have had a lot of experience,

00:45:21.100 and I've seen it on the ground.

00:45:22.920 And Aboriginality is not a nation.

00:45:25.500 There are, in fact, three to four hundred nations.

00:45:27.660 And they are, many of them, proudly individualistic.

00:45:32.440 So I don't know how 54 people are going to represent 300 plus nations

00:45:36.220 and have a special voice that no other Australian has.

00:45:40.480 The second thing is that the debate has been highly emotionally charged

00:45:43.940 and there have been the put-downs.

00:45:46.060 If you're against this, you're a racist.

00:45:48.580 Well, I'm against it because I don't think it's going to work.

00:45:52.040 And for the third reason, I don't think constitutions,

00:45:55.000 I think good constitutions, they only work in the culture.

00:45:58.660 I mean, Russia had a great constitution.

00:46:00.480 You would know that.

00:46:01.700 But it wasn't the free country.

00:46:03.920 They only work in the culture in which they're embedded.

00:46:06.320 That's right.

00:46:06.680 But our constitution was put together.

00:46:10.180 I mean, we're one of the oldest democracies in the world, Australia,

00:46:12.800 and we were able to draw on the absolute best internationally,

00:46:16.900 particularly from the American Declaration of Independence

00:46:20.180 and everything that came out of, sorry, out of the, well,

00:46:23.740 out of that process and drawing on the British model as well.

00:46:27.080 But it was late in the peace.

00:46:29.380 And I am on record as saying, and I repeat here,

00:46:32.120 that in my view, a constitution should be a dry, dusty document

00:46:36.780 that draws no distinctions at all based on wealth,

00:46:41.240 where you live, gender, position in society,

00:46:45.500 or the colour of your skin.

00:46:47.100 The very model of equality is to ensure that no one's singled out.

00:46:53.280 Now, John, one of the things that I think we would massively benefit

00:46:57.720 from in this country is Australia's understanding

00:47:02.140 of how to deal with immigration.

00:47:04.480 Because we don't seem, we are completely paralysed,

00:47:08.640 as I'm sure you've noticed, in this country and in America.

00:47:12.480 But this country particularly interests me

00:47:14.360 because the similarities are so strong.

00:47:16.620 I mean, how an island is incapable of ensuring

00:47:19.160 that it has borders is, frankly, beyond me.

00:47:22.300 And you were part of a government under John Howard

00:47:25.160 that actually addressed this issue.

00:47:27.820 Not an easy issue to address,

00:47:29.400 but some very unpleasant and difficult things to do.

00:47:32.700 We have the Home Secretary in this country

00:47:34.560 attempting to deal with it,

00:47:36.260 being called racist and all the rest of it.

00:47:40.000 Tell everybody, first of all, how you guys did it

00:47:42.420 and what are some of the lessons that you think

00:47:44.400 people in this country who want to see immigrants like me

00:47:48.220 come in and make their contribution,

00:47:49.840 who don't want to see people discriminated against,

00:47:51.980 but also don't happen to think

00:47:53.440 that people coming illegally in boats is the right approach.

00:47:57.200 How does one navigate that?

00:48:00.280 With enormous difficulty

00:48:01.560 and with a lot of misunderstanding being bandied around,

00:48:05.560 I think, as part of the process.

00:48:07.120 And I don't take it lightly at all

00:48:08.800 because I don't want to be seen as somehow

00:48:11.560 not concerned for humanitarian values.

00:48:15.980 But the first thing I'd say is that

00:48:17.700 I think it's important

00:48:19.280 that countries maintain their cultural cohesion

00:48:24.300 and I think your former Prime Minister Blair

00:48:30.020 was on to something when he said,

00:48:31.660 was it Blair?

00:48:32.100 It may not have been Blair.

00:48:33.040 One of your former Prime Ministers

00:48:34.040 made the interesting observation

00:48:35.160 that there should be a bigger effort

00:48:40.180 to try and help the people

00:48:41.120 who are wanting to escape their own countries

00:48:42.720 to develop better, more coherent societies of their own,

00:48:48.240 to try and encourage them to build democratic models

00:48:50.660 that respect differences and don't squeeze people out

00:48:53.220 and that create wealth and jobs and opportunity.

00:48:57.000 And in many ways,

00:48:58.400 it'll often be economic immigrants,

00:49:02.020 you know, that become, if you like, boat people

00:49:04.100 and they're needed at home.

00:49:05.700 Their skills and abilities are needed at home

00:49:07.440 and can't we find better ways to support them?

00:49:11.500 I always believed that Australia

00:49:13.380 should take in a lot of refugees

00:49:15.220 and we're never given much credit for that.

00:49:17.860 We actually have one of the highest,

00:49:19.600 on a pro rata basis,

00:49:21.100 refugee intakes in the world,

00:49:23.000 far above politically correct New Zealand.

00:49:25.720 It's always painted as a hero in this matter.

00:49:28.080 Who actually does the heavy lifting on compassion?

00:49:31.080 It turns out to be Australia,

00:49:32.720 not the more politically correct,

00:49:34.720 as in public perception,

00:49:36.260 a country not far away from us.

00:49:39.020 Sorry to have to say that to my New Zealand friends,

00:49:41.160 but, you know, you've got to look at the facts.

00:49:42.920 The facts matter.

00:49:44.960 No, they don't.

00:49:46.620 Not anymore.

00:49:47.440 It's 2023.

00:49:48.720 I thought we'd found some common ground here.

00:49:52.320 And I do think it's incredibly important, though,

00:49:56.620 to recognise that it's really, you know,

00:50:04.380 with porous borders ultimately countries can't survive.

00:50:07.800 So if you want beacons of light,

00:50:09.700 if you want countries that are coherent enough,

00:50:11.900 that are prosperous enough,

00:50:14.040 that are strong enough

00:50:15.080 to then do good works abroad,

00:50:18.000 you can't have them in a situation

00:50:20.020 where there's massive social unease

00:50:22.200 of the sort of shore in Germany,

00:50:23.920 where there's serious economic disruption

00:50:26.220 and disruption to the orderly management

00:50:32.760 of people in genuine humanitarian crisis

00:50:35.940 through a properly coordinated approach

00:50:38.780 of refugee management around the world.

00:50:41.100 And there are far too many of them.

00:50:42.400 And that tells a terrible story about ugly regimes.

00:50:45.140 You've written about that.

00:50:46.860 Well, what do we want to try and do?

00:50:48.680 Escape, help them escape their terrible regimes

00:50:51.320 in their own homelands.

00:50:53.620 Build better homes.

00:50:55.620 You know, we were societies once

00:50:57.540 that none of us would have wanted to belong to.

00:50:59.100 Why do they want to come to our societies?

00:51:01.220 To help them build democratic and prosperous societies.

00:51:05.280 And I don't think you can do that

00:51:06.920 if you so weaken and divide your own communities,

00:51:09.460 if you make them so incoherent

00:51:10.980 that they can't be a beacon of light

00:51:12.740 or a source of finance and aid

00:51:17.580 and export of knowledge.

00:51:19.560 Okay, however, you've skipped over

00:51:22.800 a really big part there, John,

00:51:24.300 and I'm sure it's unintentional.

00:51:25.700 But the chances of us building

00:51:28.020 a democratic regime in Syria

00:51:29.600 and in Afghanistan,

00:51:30.760 which we, by the way,

00:51:31.560 the West has destroyed, et cetera,

00:51:34.400 are quite slim.

00:51:35.240 We do have a lot of people also coming

00:51:37.100 who are, as you say, economic migrants.

00:51:38.980 I mean, one of the biggest sources

00:51:40.100 of people into the UK at the moment

00:51:41.820 is Albanians.

00:51:42.580 Albania is a safe country.

00:51:44.500 But we don't seem to be able

00:51:46.340 to deal with the fact

00:51:47.500 that the people are coming

00:51:48.900 and they're not following the rules.

00:51:51.020 So, for example,

00:51:51.740 my mum wanted to come

00:51:53.320 and visit my wife and I

00:51:55.500 for our son's first birthday

00:51:56.900 in a few weeks.

00:51:58.540 Her visa application was denied

00:52:00.340 because the person in the home office

00:52:02.620 decided she doesn't have enough money

00:52:04.140 or the visa centre or whatever,

00:52:05.980 which is fine.

00:52:06.640 You know, you make an application,

00:52:07.940 whatever.

00:52:09.100 But at the same time,

00:52:10.160 there are 50,000 people a year

00:52:11.360 who are coming in on a boat

00:52:12.400 without any of those checks.

00:52:13.600 We don't know who they are.

00:52:14.740 We're paying for them

00:52:15.440 to stay in hotels.

00:52:16.880 That is, I put it to you,

00:52:18.300 completely unsustainable.

00:52:20.000 And that also,

00:52:20.760 we have to have a solution

00:52:22.100 to that part of it as well, right?

00:52:24.360 The illegal immigration

00:52:25.500 that's happening.

00:52:26.540 And that's what you guys

00:52:27.920 had to deal with.

00:52:31.720 Yeah, well, we did.

00:52:33.480 And it was controversial

00:52:35.540 in Australia at the time.

00:52:37.300 But we sent them.

00:52:37.840 And of course,

00:52:38.220 you've got to remember

00:52:38.660 in Australia,

00:52:39.740 they were coming through

00:52:40.440 bad waters and leaky boats

00:52:41.840 and a staggering number

00:52:43.000 of people were drowning.

00:52:43.900 So it was very inhumane.

00:52:45.240 You had people smuggling

00:52:46.200 going on.

00:52:47.660 No doubt about that.

00:52:48.740 Quite corrupt

00:52:49.400 and very cruel

00:52:50.620 and dangerous.

00:52:52.220 And so we were able

00:52:53.360 to stop that

00:52:54.180 by simply ensuring

00:52:55.540 they did not get

00:52:56.340 onto the mainland.

00:52:57.200 They were processed offshore.

00:52:58.720 What people miss

00:52:59.720 when they say

00:53:00.340 Australia's been terrible

00:53:01.320 is the very high

00:53:02.960 refugee immigrant.

00:53:04.160 Your point.

00:53:05.060 We bought it

00:53:05.660 in an ordered way

00:53:07.040 based on properly

00:53:08.820 assessed need

00:53:10.200 to give those people

00:53:12.040 some hope

00:53:12.640 from the really

00:53:13.460 troubled parts

00:53:14.180 of the world.

00:53:16.200 So I'm not pretending

00:53:17.140 it's easy.

00:53:17.660 I'm not trying

00:53:18.020 to duck it either.

00:53:18.700 You seem uncomfortable

00:53:19.480 about this.

00:53:20.500 Are you?

00:53:21.140 Oh, yeah.

00:53:21.940 Yeah, I am uncomfortable

00:53:22.620 about it.

00:53:23.240 I can't stand the thought

00:53:24.140 of people suffering.

00:53:25.080 Yeah.

00:53:25.300 But I also know

00:53:26.020 that, you know,

00:53:26.520 you've got to keep

00:53:27.200 your own culture coherent,

00:53:29.020 your own economy coherent.

00:53:30.620 You've got to stand

00:53:31.580 against evil regimes

00:53:32.820 and you've got to

00:53:34.800 somehow or other

00:53:35.700 despite what you say

00:53:37.020 and you're right

00:53:37.660 in some parts of the world

00:53:38.620 this is nearly

00:53:39.160 an impossible dilemma

00:53:40.180 and I think we've got

00:53:41.460 40 million refugees

00:53:42.580 in various camps

00:53:43.580 and staging posts

00:53:44.440 around the world.

00:53:45.580 Maybe we need

00:53:46.180 to all take more

00:53:47.580 but it's got to be

00:53:48.800 an orderly process.

00:53:50.600 It has to be.

00:53:52.000 Otherwise you're so

00:53:52.980 weak in our societies

00:53:54.060 both socially

00:53:54.860 and economically

00:53:56.360 that they start

00:53:57.520 to lose their ability

00:53:58.480 to really insist

00:53:59.500 on change

00:54:00.120 and to finance

00:54:00.900 that change

00:54:01.620 and to make it all

00:54:03.260 if you like

00:54:04.060 as coherent as possible.

00:54:06.360 I think that discomfort

00:54:07.420 you experience

00:54:08.120 is actually

00:54:08.720 a much more honest position

00:54:10.100 than the vast majority

00:54:11.520 of people on both sides.

00:54:12.640 You have people

00:54:13.300 here at least

00:54:14.720 who say

00:54:15.720 well, you know,

00:54:17.000 these people are suffering

00:54:17.880 and we must help them

00:54:19.220 which of course

00:54:19.760 we want to.

00:54:20.960 On the other hand

00:54:21.520 there are people on the right

00:54:22.420 who say no,

00:54:23.040 keep everybody out

00:54:23.940 and your conflict

00:54:26.640 internally

00:54:27.220 is actually reflective

00:54:28.160 of I think

00:54:28.540 where the majority

00:54:29.480 of the people are

00:54:30.260 which is they think

00:54:31.020 people should follow

00:54:31.740 the rules

00:54:32.180 and they also think

00:54:33.360 the rules should allow

00:54:34.260 people who are

00:54:35.300 in genuine need

00:54:36.060 to be able to come.

00:54:37.240 The problem is

00:54:38.120 once you get into

00:54:38.960 the practical side of it

00:54:40.380 it's all hard choices

00:54:42.020 all the way down.

00:54:42.280 It's very hard choices.

00:54:43.660 But here's a fundamental problem.

00:54:45.360 We don't believe enough

00:54:46.500 in our own cultural values

00:54:47.880 to say that we've got

00:54:48.880 to keep them coherent

00:54:50.000 and together

00:54:50.760 if we're to be a beacon

00:54:51.960 to the rest of the world.

00:54:53.560 And I think that's

00:54:54.200 a big part of it.

00:54:55.500 We don't draw a distinction,

00:54:56.980 enough of a distinction

00:54:57.880 between

00:54:58.480 I'm going to use

00:55:00.520 this word

00:55:00.820 the nobility

00:55:01.500 of the democratic ideal

00:55:02.920 and the appalling

00:55:05.060 nature of the regimes

00:55:06.300 that these people

00:55:06.960 are trying to escape

00:55:08.100 and that's my point.

00:55:09.420 I put it poorly

00:55:10.040 but one of your

00:55:11.180 former prime ministers

00:55:12.120 was very big

00:55:13.040 on this idea.

00:55:13.920 I heard quite a cogent

00:55:14.940 argument from him once

00:55:16.200 and I just can't remember

00:55:16.940 who it was

00:55:17.460 about how we have

00:55:18.680 to redouble our efforts

00:55:20.320 even if we've got

00:55:22.340 to take them

00:55:23.020 into a staging camp

00:55:25.180 somewhere

00:55:25.560 to pick up

00:55:27.440 those people

00:55:27.980 who have skills

00:55:28.580 and abilities

00:55:29.100 and then somehow

00:55:29.800 try and feed them

00:55:30.760 back wherever we can

00:55:31.680 into their own country

00:55:32.640 to rebuild those

00:55:34.340 and of course

00:55:34.740 it's happened

00:55:35.220 from time to time.

00:55:36.720 There are countries

00:55:37.340 that have found

00:55:37.800 their way out of me.

00:55:38.680 You could argue

00:55:39.180 that of our own culture.

00:55:40.180 I'm of Scottish background.

00:55:41.640 I mean there were

00:55:41.920 about five warring tribes

00:55:43.360 that murdered one another

00:55:44.440 across Scotland

00:55:45.140 until probably really

00:55:46.940 the coming

00:55:47.440 of the Christian Reformation

00:55:48.740 and they all started

00:55:49.880 to recognise

00:55:50.620 that it's not a very

00:55:52.300 Christian thing to do

00:55:53.620 to slaughter one another

00:55:54.720 and they gradually

00:55:56.100 began to change

00:55:57.080 their behaviour.

00:55:58.540 This does happen.

00:56:00.400 Once upon a time

00:56:01.120 you would have said

00:56:01.600 we were not good candidates

00:56:03.000 to live in peaceful

00:56:04.020 democratic societies.

00:56:05.960 We need to keep sight

00:56:07.600 I think of the essential

00:56:09.240 beliefs and values

00:56:10.540 and not to cry

00:56:11.920 and to base them

00:56:12.720 so much time

00:56:13.340 that gave us

00:56:14.640 those things

00:56:16.120 and then redouble

00:56:18.120 our efforts

00:56:18.720 to extend them

00:56:19.720 but because we don't

00:56:20.700 believe in them anymore

00:56:21.560 in 30 years

00:56:23.560 since the fall

00:56:24.120 of the Berlin War

00:56:24.860 when we thought

00:56:25.400 democracy had won out

00:56:27.060 and it was on the advance

00:56:28.340 it's now in the retreat.

00:56:30.260 We need to redouble

00:56:31.420 our confidence

00:56:33.020 in ourselves

00:56:33.780 I think

00:56:34.360 and our commitment.

00:56:35.800 I'm deeply invested

00:56:37.220 in trying to help people

00:56:38.160 in the majority world

00:56:39.100 and help them

00:56:40.040 find their way

00:56:40.600 out of poverty

00:56:41.140 through food production

00:56:42.180 for example.

00:56:43.360 And Australia

00:56:43.780 is one of the biggest

00:56:45.300 heavy hitters

00:56:45.920 in this regard

00:56:46.580 because we know

00:56:47.320 about farming

00:56:47.840 in tough environments

00:56:48.700 one Australian farmer

00:56:50.060 now we're told

00:56:50.800 feeds 700 people

00:56:52.040 and exporting

00:56:54.040 some of that knowledge

00:56:55.520 has helped us globally

00:56:57.960 Australia's just been

00:56:58.860 one of the players

00:56:59.780 Britain's been another

00:57:00.840 we don't give ourselves

00:57:02.200 enough credit

00:57:02.700 for this stuff

00:57:03.300 along with the Gates Foundation

00:57:05.580 the big hitter

00:57:06.320 heavy hitters

00:57:06.900 we're feeding

00:57:07.640 five billion mouths

00:57:09.240 a day more now

00:57:10.200 than we were

00:57:11.020 50 years ago

00:57:12.240 and proportionately

00:57:13.640 the number of people

00:57:14.440 who are malnourished

00:57:15.540 and stunted children

00:57:17.620 and so forth

00:57:18.160 they're still too high

00:57:19.080 but proportionately

00:57:20.040 they're way down

00:57:21.320 they're good news stories

00:57:23.060 about what we can do

00:57:24.520 to help lift people

00:57:26.220 out of short

00:57:26.900 nasty brutish lives

00:57:28.400 if we have enough

00:57:29.820 confidence in ourselves

00:57:31.180 and our opportunity

00:57:32.540 to help others

00:57:33.360 and enough respect

00:57:34.300 for their humanity

00:57:35.180 to do it in an orderly

00:57:36.820 and sensible way.

00:57:38.800 John

00:57:39.180 we're talking about regimes

00:57:40.800 there's one regime

00:57:41.820 that Australia

00:57:43.000 is uncomfortably

00:57:44.000 enmeshed with

00:57:44.580 and that's China

00:57:45.400 how worried are you

00:57:46.560 about that?

00:57:48.160 Very worried

00:57:48.880 I'm extremely worried

00:57:50.660 about it

00:57:51.140 just as I'm worried

00:57:51.860 about the Ukraine

00:57:52.680 and I'd love to hear

00:57:53.620 your views

00:57:54.120 and we can talk

00:57:54.580 about that later

00:57:55.260 you know

00:57:55.660 we have no exit plan

00:57:56.820 we don't seem to know

00:57:57.640 whether it may escalate

00:57:59.200 what it may ultimately become

00:58:00.740 you'll know more about that

00:58:01.680 than me

00:58:02.620 I want to say

00:58:03.880 first up

00:58:04.580 this is so important

00:58:05.820 I admire the Chinese people

00:58:09.360 I think what they've achieved

00:58:11.300 is incredible

00:58:12.180 the West has been

00:58:14.440 responsible for a lot of that

00:58:15.760 we've been great markets

00:58:17.300 we've given them

00:58:17.980 a lot of technology

00:58:19.000 the democratic

00:58:20.760 and capitalist model

00:58:22.000 has been applied

00:58:22.580 to their economy

00:58:23.300 and that has lifted

00:58:24.280 a lot of people

00:58:24.900 out of short

00:58:25.380 nasty brutish lives

00:58:26.460 that's all good stuff

00:58:27.940 but they've got another

00:58:29.420 export from the West

00:58:30.440 a thing called communism

00:58:31.520 in Beijing

00:58:32.460 and of course

00:58:34.760 the communist thing

00:58:35.840 is about

00:58:36.280 you know

00:58:36.720 it's a flawed model

00:58:38.080 people say

00:58:38.580 oh communism's

00:58:39.380 a great deal

00:58:40.040 again

00:58:40.940 Constantine

00:58:41.520 you'll know more

00:58:41.980 about this than me

00:58:42.800 but it's just never

00:58:44.600 been properly applied

00:58:45.480 no it's a flawed concept

00:58:46.600 because it says

00:58:47.340 that we human beings

00:58:48.240 will give our first

00:58:48.960 loyalty to the party

00:58:49.880 you've got a son

00:58:51.400 you're not going to

00:58:52.240 give your first loyalty

00:58:53.000 to a political party

00:58:54.060 over your loyalty

00:58:54.780 to your son

00:58:55.540 but it's got this model

00:58:57.940 that demands

00:58:59.040 all loyalty to it

00:59:00.260 and as part of that

00:59:02.160 seems to have to expand

00:59:03.200 its power

00:59:03.860 and its influence

00:59:04.540 everywhere

00:59:05.260 and that's a real dilemma

00:59:08.080 and we need to be

00:59:09.400 very very conscious

00:59:11.180 of the dangers

00:59:13.260 of a regime

00:59:14.320 that wants all power

00:59:16.140 under itself

00:59:16.780 that's engaged

00:59:17.560 in the most rapid

00:59:18.620 armaments build up

00:59:19.580 certainly in my lifetime

00:59:21.960 and what are they up to

00:59:24.160 well certainly

00:59:26.200 massive interference

00:59:27.500 technological

00:59:28.380 political

00:59:29.120 social

00:59:30.580 everywhere

00:59:31.540 they now have

00:59:33.220 more ships

00:59:34.220 in their navy

00:59:34.840 than the American navy

00:59:36.040 who would have thought

00:59:36.660 that possible

00:59:37.220 a few years ago

00:59:37.780 the Americans

00:59:38.560 I suspect

00:59:39.140 still have greater tonnage

00:59:40.220 and greater sophistication

00:59:41.440 on that sort of front

00:59:42.840 they are determined

00:59:44.180 I think

00:59:44.640 to find a way

00:59:45.280 to reunify Taiwan

00:59:46.580 well I don't believe

00:59:48.180 that a people

00:59:48.620 should be denied

00:59:49.420 the right to self-determination

00:59:50.860 the Taiwanese people

00:59:51.700 have decided

00:59:52.180 to be a democracy

00:59:53.060 just like the people

00:59:55.100 in Hong Kong did

00:59:55.900 and we should defend

00:59:59.040 that principle

00:59:59.700 that's freedom

01:00:00.580 that's the right

01:00:02.200 to determine

01:00:02.900 the sort of lives

01:00:03.820 and society

01:00:04.460 that you want to live in

01:00:05.200 these things are

01:00:05.940 of immense value

01:00:07.720 and we should treasure

01:00:09.100 them more in the West

01:00:10.240 you've written a book

01:00:11.060 about it

01:00:11.580 although I could also

01:00:13.320 play the devil's advocate

01:00:14.340 argument

01:00:14.980 which is

01:00:15.780 I mean

01:00:17.980 democracy great

01:00:18.980 but you've got to be able

01:00:19.760 to defend it

01:00:20.440 and if you can't

01:00:21.680 you know

01:00:21.980 do you want America

01:00:23.280 deep into

01:00:25.420 China's backwater

01:00:27.420 interfering

01:00:28.460 in what the Chinese

01:00:29.340 see as their own

01:00:30.280 internal affairs

01:00:31.100 would the Americans

01:00:32.680 like if the Chinese

01:00:33.740 got involved

01:00:34.380 in a you know

01:00:35.120 in an equivalent thing

01:00:37.380 in the United States

01:00:38.920 do you see what I'm saying

01:00:39.580 look I've heard the argument

01:00:41.620 quite often

01:00:42.280 I'm sure

01:00:42.720 but I still say

01:00:43.960 that Taiwan

01:00:44.640 the Taiwanese people

01:00:46.300 have determined

01:00:46.780 that they want

01:00:47.300 to be democratic

01:00:47.980 I still say

01:00:50.800 that whoever

01:00:51.980 controls

01:00:52.780 in the end

01:00:53.220 of the South

01:00:53.720 China Seas

01:00:54.760 will control

01:00:55.400 things like

01:00:55.840 the internet

01:00:56.260 for example

01:00:56.820 because there are

01:00:58.840 hundreds of cables

01:01:00.020 through that region

01:01:00.800 are we going to

01:01:02.760 keep it free

01:01:03.380 for the exchange

01:01:04.160 of information

01:01:04.820 and commerce

01:01:05.400 and the free

01:01:06.720 flowing of a world

01:01:07.800 where we thought

01:01:08.800 we were building

01:01:09.860 a better model

01:01:10.900 for peaceful

01:01:11.460 coexistence

01:01:12.320 and trade

01:01:12.920 and interaction

01:01:13.860 or are we going

01:01:14.920 to hand control

01:01:15.860 to a regime

01:01:16.720 that is plainly intent

01:01:17.780 upon dominating

01:01:18.620 the region

01:01:19.180 so what does

01:01:21.620 Australia do

01:01:22.360 then John

01:01:22.840 because Australia

01:01:23.640 has got very rich

01:01:24.860 with Chinese investment

01:01:26.380 with Chinese

01:01:27.540 buying your products

01:01:29.020 buying your minerals

01:01:30.200 how do you break away

01:01:32.540 from that

01:01:32.920 can you

01:01:33.420 well only by

01:01:35.640 I mean you know

01:01:36.340 we must not wish

01:01:37.480 the Chinese people ill

01:01:38.680 and that trade's been

01:01:39.480 very important to them

01:01:40.300 it's helped lift

01:01:41.600 a lot of those people

01:01:42.580 out of those short

01:01:43.580 British lives

01:01:44.120 sorry to repeat the term

01:01:45.000 and we want to build

01:01:46.520 a cooperative model

01:01:47.320 and keep it

01:01:47.980 you know we should play

01:01:49.100 with a straight bat

01:01:49.780 at all times

01:01:50.400 and we should try

01:01:52.140 to be good citizens

01:01:52.940 but we also need

01:01:54.440 to club together globally

01:01:55.560 Lee Kuan Yew

01:01:56.340 from the Singapore

01:01:57.380 miracle story

01:01:59.720 you know wrote

01:02:00.220 20 years ago

01:02:01.000 that in the end

01:02:02.580 China will have

01:02:03.420 the ability

01:02:03.800 to simply flex

01:02:04.680 economic muscle

01:02:05.680 and bring everybody

01:02:06.780 to heel

01:02:07.320 unless we club together

01:02:09.280 and you are seeing that

01:02:11.120 and it's really important

01:02:12.640 that in our region

01:02:13.600 Japan and Australia

01:02:14.840 in particular

01:02:15.760 have said look

01:02:16.600 we do believe

01:02:17.780 in our values

01:02:18.600 and so we talked

01:02:19.520 a little while ago

01:02:20.100 about COVID in Australia

01:02:21.720 and Australians being a bit

01:02:22.980 but give us some respect

01:02:25.120 I think for being

01:02:26.000 pretty straight up and down

01:02:27.760 and saying no

01:02:28.540 we do

01:02:29.180 we are willing

01:02:30.080 to defend our way of life

01:02:31.200 and we're not going

01:02:31.940 to have Chinese interference

01:02:33.060 in our universities

01:02:34.020 our political parties

01:02:35.400 and yes we are going

01:02:36.980 to take army seriously

01:02:38.580 and we are going

01:02:39.800 to club together

01:02:40.460 under AUKUS

01:02:41.100 with the Brits

01:02:41.780 and the Americans

01:02:42.960 to share technologies

01:02:44.560 and to upgrade

01:02:46.060 submarine capacity

01:02:47.980 and those sorts of things

01:02:49.100 and you are now seeing

01:02:51.780 that model flow through

01:02:53.720 into a greater willingness

01:02:54.880 across Asia

01:02:55.780 to say

01:02:56.240 well we don't have

01:02:57.720 to subject to a regime

01:02:59.260 that doesn't look like

01:03:00.800 it's particularly interested

01:03:01.860 in open democratic models

01:03:03.740 so the Philippines

01:03:04.520 have stepped up

01:03:05.220 for example

01:03:07.080 India is engaging

01:03:08.640 and India will supplant

01:03:09.920 China over time

01:03:11.680 as a bigger country

01:03:12.760 and probably a bigger economy

01:03:14.000 China in many ways

01:03:15.600 is peaking

01:03:16.260 you know

01:03:17.780 they've got massive

01:03:18.600 problems with debt

01:03:19.400 their population

01:03:21.040 is about

01:03:21.480 it is leading

01:03:22.460 the depopulation bomb

01:03:23.860 it's extraordinary

01:03:25.420 it's anticipated

01:03:26.340 that it

01:03:26.780 its population

01:03:27.740 may go from

01:03:28.440 1.3

01:03:29.180 1.4 billion

01:03:30.320 down to 5 or 600 million

01:03:32.080 by the end of this century

01:03:33.280 and so I think

01:03:35.740 again

01:03:36.460 I really stress

01:03:37.640 yes

01:03:39.240 our relationship

01:03:40.040 with the Chinese people

01:03:41.180 and their trade

01:03:42.480 has been good for them

01:03:43.400 good for us

01:03:44.220 yes

01:03:45.800 we do have some differences

01:03:46.940 with the communist model

01:03:49.060 of governments

01:03:49.600 and their intention

01:03:50.500 on domination

01:03:51.360 we'd rather

01:03:51.980 cooperation

01:03:53.120 but

01:03:55.080 at the same time

01:03:56.380 recognise that

01:03:57.060 we do still believe

01:03:58.400 in our own bad

01:03:59.060 it's just as you've done

01:03:59.920 in Europe

01:04:00.300 in relation to the Ukraine

01:04:01.500 that's what it's been about

01:04:03.600 and that must have

01:04:04.520 given great pause

01:04:05.520 certainly in Moscow

01:04:06.860 but in Beijing

01:04:08.060 as well

01:04:08.440 they wouldn't have

01:04:08.940 expected this level

01:04:09.740 of cooperation

01:04:10.460 economic as well

01:04:11.380 as military

01:04:11.900 and so presumably

01:04:14.320 that's caused

01:04:15.640 something of a rethink

01:04:16.620 I hope it has

01:04:17.460 John

01:04:18.600 we're going to

01:04:19.040 continue the conversation

01:04:20.200 on our locals

01:04:21.500 with our paid supporters

01:04:22.720 with their questions

01:04:23.820 but for now

01:04:24.680 thank you so much

01:04:25.620 for coming on the show

01:04:26.420 it's always a pleasure

01:04:27.860 to speak with you

01:04:28.600 and our last question

01:04:30.420 is always the same

01:04:31.200 which is

01:04:31.580 what is the one thing

01:04:32.520 that we're not talking about

01:04:33.720 as a society

01:04:34.560 that you think

01:04:35.080 we really should be

01:04:35.840 I'll surprise you there

01:04:37.880 I actually think

01:04:38.640 it's fatherlessness

01:04:39.620 that doesn't surprise me

01:04:42.920 yeah

01:04:43.780 no I think

01:04:44.500 it is an absolute crisis

01:04:45.640 and I think

01:04:46.980 we have caught

01:04:47.800 our children up

01:04:48.860 in the culture wars

01:04:51.040 in a way

01:04:52.440 that frankly

01:04:53.100 reflects very

01:04:54.120 very poorly

01:04:54.800 on Western society

01:04:55.860 I think it's a real blight

01:04:57.360 and I think

01:04:58.320 we need to lift

01:04:59.040 our game

01:04:59.560 and say

01:05:01.200 our children

01:05:03.160 who are relatively

01:05:04.340 voiceless

01:05:04.900 need to come first

01:05:07.300 in our considerations

01:05:08.180 as to what their needs are

01:05:09.320 not our conveniences

01:05:10.360 and what suits us

01:05:11.320 because I think

01:05:12.920 particularly for young men

01:05:14.220 right across the West

01:05:15.200 fatherlessness

01:05:16.400 the lack of good role modelling

01:05:18.060 the lack of

01:05:19.580 demonstration

01:05:21.060 of how to respect

01:05:22.460 women properly

01:05:24.480 and so forth

01:05:26.280 and all the raw figures

01:05:27.560 are there

01:05:27.940 with the young men

01:05:29.700 who drop out

01:05:30.460 who end up

01:05:31.120 traumatised

01:05:31.840 depressed

01:05:32.540 anxious

01:05:33.020 self-harm

01:05:34.260 and prison

01:05:35.020 and just dropping

01:05:36.380 out of the system

01:05:37.180 it ought to be worrying us

01:05:38.760 and if one sex

01:05:40.240 is not doing well

01:05:41.000 neither sex

01:05:41.780 is doing as well

01:05:42.440 as it ought to

01:05:42.920 in my view

01:05:43.500 John

01:05:45.080 it's been

01:05:45.580 absolutely brilliant

01:05:47.100 thank you so much

01:05:47.840 for coming on the show

01:05:48.760 where can people

01:05:50.520 find you online?

01:05:51.840 No

01:05:52.060 johnanderson.net

01:05:53.560 au

01:05:54.040 but

01:05:55.100 it's very kind of you

01:05:56.900 you've been able to understand

01:05:58.080 my Australian accent

01:05:59.000 have you?

01:05:59.380 Yes

01:05:59.700 just a little bit

01:06:00.660 just a little bit

01:06:01.680 got the odd word

01:06:02.580 and of course

01:06:03.300 your YouTube show

01:06:04.140 which is Conversations

01:06:05.220 with John Anderson

01:06:06.000 head on over to Locals

01:06:07.420 for the bonus questions

01:06:08.300 we'll see you there

01:06:09.100 Emma says

01:06:11.500 what has shocked you most

01:06:13.260 about the trajectory

01:06:14.160 of Australian politics

01:06:15.220 since you left office?

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01:06:29.820 navigate change

01:06:30.680 with confidence

01:06:31.380 visit

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01:06:32.580 slash kyc

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01:06:34.840 to discover how

01:06:35.700 the everything

01:06:37.980 so

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01:06:40.960 so

01:06:43.220 you

01:06:43.440 you

01:06:45.660 you

01:06:46.980 you

01:06:59.640 you

TRIGGERnometry - June 18, 2023

＂We're not thinking, we're emoting＂ - John Anderson, former Deputy Prime Minister of Australia

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