TRIGGERnometry - We Went to America - This Is What We Saw

00:00:00.960 Oh, these people, they really, really, really do not like Europe.

00:00:05.800 I wouldn't call it antagonism, but certainly...

00:00:08.600 Why not?

00:00:10.400 It is antagonism.

00:00:12.040 One of the reasons America is so great is that there is a legal system that allows people recourse to appeal and so on.

00:00:19.100 If the story is true, this is a human rights travesty.

00:00:23.180 Let's call it what it is.

00:00:24.260 It's a travesty.

00:00:25.500 But if it's not, then we're all being gaslit and manipulated.

00:00:28.660 And the worst thing is...

00:00:30.920 We don't know which one of those is right.

00:00:33.000 It seems to me that there isn't any logical reason why the invasion wouldn't be repeated and then the entire world wouldn't find itself right here again.

00:00:41.900 It's a story about somebody being put in a police cell because of complaints on a parent's WhatsApp group.

00:00:50.040 Like, what's happening?

00:00:52.140 We're becoming the laughingstock of the world.

00:00:55.560 Well...

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00:01:54.560 Francis, we have been in the U.S. for two weeks.

00:01:59.120 Now we're recorded about 16 episodes in 14 days.

00:02:02.220 It's been intense.

00:02:03.400 And we've learned a lot.

00:02:05.040 We have learned a lot.

00:02:06.040 We have had what I like to think is a little bit of a wake-up call when it comes to America.

00:02:11.760 Because last time we came here, talking for myself, I was like, I understand everything about this country.

00:02:18.480 It turns out I was a little bit wrong.

00:02:20.700 Well, I think one of the things that happened with the election of President Trump is that a lot of people projected their own concerns and their own things onto him.

00:02:32.420 And, of course, he, like any good politician, like any effective politician, he would have encouraged that.

00:02:38.020 So the people who were concerned about runaway wokeness thought that, you know, that's what he's going to deal with.

00:02:43.400 And he has.

00:02:44.220 The people who are concerned about the size of government thought that that's what he would deal with and that's what he's doing.

00:02:50.520 And the people who were concerned about illegal immigration, which is a lot of people, thought that that's what he'd deal with.

00:02:56.420 And he is dealing with it.

00:02:58.160 But also, he's also doing quite a lot of things that he never talked about on the campaign trail.

00:03:04.500 All of this stuff about Canada and Greenland and the Panama Canal, et cetera.

00:03:09.520 I don't remember that being an issue.

00:03:11.560 No.

00:03:11.820 That was discussed.

00:03:12.440 Another interesting thing that's happening is we had a lot of conversations with people behind the scenes, not even on camera particularly, about the rise in the impact of the religious aspect of the right.

00:03:31.080 And we hosted some conversations on camera in which that was also discussed.

00:03:35.200 But I think the main question that a lot of people don't know the answer to is there's quite a lot of stuff that the Trump administration is doing that most people would agree with, like their domestic policies and a lot of things, like dealing with mass illegal immigration, closing the border.

00:03:51.900 So tariffs is something that people kind of thought that he would do, maybe not to the same extent.

00:03:56.900 But I think the big question is, what is his overall posture towards the world?

00:04:02.600 Why is he talking so much about these territories near the United States and what he wants to do about that?

00:04:09.280 And also how he's going to deal with Ukraine, how he's going to deal with Israel, how he's going to deal with Iran.

00:04:17.200 And this is the real thing that I don't think anyone expected to be the way it has been.

00:04:22.100 How is he going to deal with Europe?

00:04:23.480 Because we have seen quite a lot of things coming out of the Trump administration with J.D. Vance, that leaked signal, those leaked signal messages, et cetera, where you go, oh, these people, they really, really, really do not like Europe.

00:04:39.280 And the way they talk about Europe is kind of similar in a way to an ex-girlfriend talking about a boyfriend at one point who let her down.

00:04:49.700 And it is sneering and it is contemptuous.

00:04:52.380 And we saw that in J.D. Vance's tones in those messages on the signal chat, which I found, on the one hand, very dispiriting and actually quite depressing.

00:05:01.960 But I also thought it was actually very valuable because people were prevaricating and they weren't sure where Vance stood.

00:05:11.540 With those signal messages, you understood loud and clear where J.D. Vance stands when it comes to Europe.

00:05:18.120 And I don't think it's just him, by the way.

00:05:19.600 I think it's a broader thing within the Trump administration now.

00:05:24.300 And it's understandable.

00:05:25.540 And you and I, I think, would agree that when it comes to defense spending, for example, Europe has been absolutely taking the piss.

00:05:33.300 Yeah. 0.99

00:05:33.720 Absolutely taking the piss. 0.96

00:05:35.020 We've been living under the American nuclear umbrella, not investing in our own defense, not investing in our armed services, running them down to completely ridiculous levels. 0.94

00:05:47.260 And while at the same time, increasing over time and spending more and more money on welfare.

00:05:54.660 And I totally understand the American position.

00:05:58.200 The American position is, look, we don't have a huge welfare state.

00:06:02.580 That's not the American way. 0.96

00:06:04.640 So why should we be paying for yours?

00:06:07.800 I completely I completely get it.

00:06:09.740 And then when you add in net zero on top of it, which, let's be fair, is just glorified deindustrialization and makes countries like Germany and the UK, but particularly Germany, more reliant on Russia for providing things like natural gas, resources like natural gas, which Germany is going to be dependent on.

00:06:29.140 So I understand the Americans going, how long you're saying Russia is the enemy, yet you're engaging in free trade with the enemy.

00:06:37.140 Make it make sense.

00:06:38.460 Well, right. That's one of the arguments people here will make about Ukraine.

00:06:41.780 It's like you guys say you want to support Ukraine, but Europe got more money, spent more money on Russian gas, rather, during the course of the war than it gave to the Ukrainians in support.

00:06:52.600 So you are telling us we've got to pay for that while you guys deindustrialize, don't produce your own energy.

00:06:59.060 Like the UK is, I think, the Chinese owner of the UK's last steel making facilities has just made the decision to shut them down.

00:07:09.080 So Britain has four times the industrial energy prices of America.

00:07:13.100 We're not able to make our own virgin steel, which is what you need for military use.

00:07:19.420 What, why would an ally like that be valuable to the United States?

00:07:24.480 So I do understand that.

00:07:25.980 I also think that there is a risk that that rhetoric becomes self-fulfilling and Europe and America do end up just kind of going in separate directions.

00:07:36.880 I think it would be bad for both countries, actually, for Europe and for America.

00:07:40.800 I think it would be disastrous for both.

00:07:42.620 We have always been allies for many, many years, and there are good reasons behind that.

00:07:48.260 America, look, let's be honest, is the dominant superpower in the world.

00:07:52.480 But it doesn't matter how strong or powerful you are.

00:07:54.800 There are going to be times where you need your friends, where you need help.

00:07:58.720 And by America pursuing this policy almost of isolationism, not to the extent of how some people in the MAGA movement want it, but certainly being very much colder to European friends, you're looking at it and you're thinking to yourself, eventually this is going to come back and bite you on the proverbial.

00:08:21.460 Because the rule is you can't do everything on your own.

00:08:25.300 You need to work with people.

00:08:27.220 It helps to work with people.

00:08:29.520 You need trade links.

00:08:30.820 You need diplomatic relations.

00:08:33.620 And if you are going down this path of, I wouldn't call it antagonism, but certainly...

00:08:39.000 Why not?

00:08:40.740 It is antagonism.

00:08:43.940 I see because I would say that...

00:08:49.040 Look, is it openly antagonistic?

00:08:53.180 Yes.

00:08:54.160 Why would you say it's openly antagonistic?

00:08:55.220 Because J.D.

00:08:57.120 Vance, and by the way, I agree with a lot of what he said in Munich.

00:09:00.300 I agree with a lot of the stuff he said the day I summit.

00:09:02.760 And I thought it was a really interesting speech that he gave her for reasons we can get into.

00:09:06.060 But if you look at what they're saying in those group chats in the Signal thing...

00:09:09.400 Okay, so this is where they are openly contemptuous and antagonistic, but they haven't shown that it's been...

00:09:19.620 There have been hints of it, but it hasn't been open.

00:09:22.980 But what the Signal group did is made their attitudes and their beliefs and their views of Europe open.

00:09:30.860 And we'll see how that plays out.

00:09:32.840 Like I say, I think I see the American argument, and I am deeply, deeply frustrated with the British government of the country that we are from, and many, many European countries that have lived...

00:09:48.360 Let's be honest, this is cloud cuckoo land.

00:09:50.180 You cannot destroy your own industry, your own jobs, for the sake of quote-unquote saving the planet, which we're absolutely not doing.

00:09:58.360 And we won't be able to do when China, India, and now the United States are completely just not pursuing those policies at all.

00:10:07.460 Those are the three countries that produce the most CO2 in the world, if that's your concern.

00:10:12.940 Clearly, this notion that Britain can save the world by leading the way on those issues is ridiculous because no one's following.

00:10:21.460 So when we suicide our country in order to reduce our contribution to global carbon emissions from 2% to 1% or even to 0%, but no one follows that, we are not helping anything and we're ruining our own economy, which means that we're not able to project our power, which means we're not a good ally to the United States.

00:10:40.940 So I think that will play out, and my understanding of many of the Trump policies is that he's going out to an extreme in order to encourage Europeans to do more, which they're doing.

00:10:53.600 And hopefully, you know, the argument we've heard about tariffs is something we haven't mentioned yet, is that the reason Donald Trump is doing this is he actually wants a zero-tariff world, which it isn't.

00:11:04.160 And the way to achieve a zero-tariff world is to make people see that when you put tariffs on American stuff, it's not good for America, it's also not good for you, so let's all go to zero.

00:11:12.820 We're not there yet. That is still ongoing, right?

00:11:16.380 But I think the other thing, and this is important because we talked about this with Joe Rogan on his show, what we also saw from the Signal group chat is the reaction to it from a lot of people in the new media and in the old media.

00:11:32.040 Where, look, obviously, the people on the left are going to jump on that as an opportunity to try and criticize the administration.

00:11:39.600 And so they should.

00:11:40.480 And so they should.

00:11:41.820 But you also see that those of us who have called out the craziness of the woke period that has been ongoing for some time, we, I think, you and I and others, try to be honest and say, look, this was not a good thing.

00:11:58.140 Like, if you add a journalist to a Signal group in which plans for U.S. attacks on Yemen are being discussed, that's not a good thing.

00:12:06.100 But you also saw that a lot of people are just partisan and they try and pretend it away, claim that this journalist is a bad person, maybe is a bad person, doesn't mean that adding him to his Signal group is a good thing.

00:12:20.900 And I think one of the things that you're about to see is a big pivot that I think this space is going to split into those people.

00:12:29.360 And look, I'll give you an example.

00:12:30.840 I've had run-ins with Glenn Greenwald online.

00:12:33.560 We've had him on our show.

00:12:34.620 I said some things about him that were not complimentary after, you know, in part of our discussions or whatever.

00:12:40.920 But he's been very principled on things like this, as have many other people.

00:12:44.280 But there's also going to be a section of people who, they never really cared about the truth.

00:12:48.720 They never really cared about being balanced.

00:12:50.600 They just care about their side.

00:12:53.420 And to them, it's like red team, blue team.

00:12:55.740 They're on team red and they'll ignore everything that team red does that's bad and focus only on what team blue does.

00:13:03.060 And I think that's going to be a big split in this space.

00:13:06.220 Well, it is.

00:13:06.960 And what you're going to see is actually people who have the integrity to come out and criticize team red and the people that don't.

00:13:14.820 And look, I think this is one of the things we need to talk about, honestly.

00:13:18.700 There's just a lot of people on both sides that this is just a power game.

00:13:22.580 And they will do whatever it takes in order to get power.

00:13:25.540 And once they get power, then they can enact the policies and the vision that they want for the country.

00:13:31.700 And however you get there, that's fair game.

00:13:35.620 It's fair game.

00:13:37.520 And that's fair game for people on the progressive left, woke, whatever you want to call them.

00:13:41.580 And there's people on the other on the other side of the right.

00:13:45.060 It's fair game to them because to them, this is a game.

00:13:49.000 That's all it is.

00:13:50.140 It's a game.

00:13:50.980 And you strategize and you do what it takes in order to get your guy in so that you win.

00:13:56.480 And hey, if you break a few eggs, then what's the problem?

00:13:59.880 But that guy is in.

00:14:01.100 And I think, look, neither of us is American.

00:14:04.340 So this is just an outside perspective.

00:14:06.420 And it's up to Americans how they run their government and blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:14:09.380 But it's 100% accurate.

00:14:11.940 But from my perspective, I would say the same thing about the UK.

00:14:15.700 If you get people into power that you think are better than the people that are there now,

00:14:21.020 you nonetheless want them to be accountable.

00:14:24.060 You nonetheless want them to admit mistakes and correct mistakes.

00:14:28.100 You nonetheless want them to have their feet held to the fire for things that they do that are fair.

00:14:34.800 And I think the strategy that the White House employed in this issue was very strange because they admitted it was a mistake.

00:14:41.860 They admitted it was real.

00:14:43.380 Several people, Tulsi Gabbard included, said it was a mistake.

00:14:47.140 I think Mike Waltz himself said it was a mistake.

00:14:50.140 But they also at the same time tried to attack the journalist for reporting being added to a signal group.

00:14:58.320 Every journalist in history would have done that, right?

00:15:01.220 Would have published that story and would have done it the way that he did.

00:15:04.080 So it's just an attempt to pretend that a mistake wasn't made, even though you've admitted a mistake.

00:15:09.560 It doesn't make any sense.

00:15:10.780 And I think the fastest way to lose credibility with sensible people, the overwhelming majority of this country,

00:15:17.520 is to pretend that you didn't make a mistake when you did, when you obviously did,

00:15:23.560 and not to admit it and not to apologize and not to say we're going to investigate this and find out what's going on.

00:15:28.760 I completely agree with you, but then you're not partisan.

00:15:31.100 So to those people, all that matters is power and maintaining power.

00:15:37.080 And what's the number one way for them to maintain power is to deny all culpability.

00:15:42.200 That's how you do it.

00:15:43.360 You deny that you've made a mistake, thereby you deny weakness, and thereby you double down.

00:15:49.020 And let's be fair to them as well, we have seen time and time again when cancellations happens,

00:15:54.880 the worst things that you can do is apologize.

00:15:56.860 Because once you apologize, that then emboldens the mob in order to get people fired,

00:16:02.980 cancel, whatever you want to call it.

00:16:04.560 So they would argue, hey, look, maybe in a different world, apologizing or saying,

00:16:11.400 hey, we got it wrong here might be the smart thing to do.

00:16:14.260 But in the world of the online, the world of the Twitter, the world of the troll and online mobs

00:16:20.180 and all the rest of it, no, double down, that's the only way we ride this out.

00:16:25.160 And I'm not saying I agree with that.

00:16:26.800 I'm saying that's what they probably think.

00:16:28.520 That's probably what they think.

00:16:29.700 But the difference is that the problem with cancel culture was people being unfairly treated

00:16:35.360 and misrepresented and lied about.

00:16:37.720 And if someone accuses you of something that you haven't done or if someone claims that

00:16:44.080 you've said something that you haven't said and you and I both had those experiences,

00:16:48.000 of course, you should never apologize in that situation.

00:16:51.020 But at the same time, if you've made an actual mistake, the best way to make that go away

00:16:55.980 is to hold your hands up and go, that was a mistake.

00:16:58.700 We're investigating.

00:16:59.700 We'll find out what happened and the right processes will be put in place.

00:17:03.060 So this doesn't happen anymore.

00:17:04.160 That's how you deal with it.

00:17:06.160 And at some point, you might have to admit culpability and some people might have to accept the consequences

00:17:11.200 of that.

00:17:11.800 But that is the way you maintain credibility.

00:17:14.260 Anyway, it feels to me like we're in an interesting moment.

00:17:17.660 But in terms of the stuff that you and I have picked up kind of on the ground here in America,

00:17:21.880 I think one other thing that is really important to say is the wave of optimism positivity that

00:17:28.820 happened in America after the last election, which we were here for.

00:17:31.520 And we did one of these conversations then.

00:17:34.160 It doesn't cover up the fact that a lot of ordinary Americans, left, right, center,

00:17:42.900 up, down, a lot of people are really hurting.

00:17:46.800 We heard this from guest after guest and ordinary person after ordinary person that we spoke to.

00:17:52.500 A hell of a lot of people are in a position where they're financially very precarious.

00:17:57.240 They're living hand to mouth.

00:17:58.360 They don't have savings.

00:17:59.300 Cost of things are going up.

00:18:02.080 And they're looking for solutions to those things.

00:18:04.940 And I think a lot of people hope that this re-industrializing America agenda, bringing jobs to America is going to work.

00:18:12.340 But at this moment in time, a lot of people are in a very difficult situation.

00:18:18.500 Well, look, we were in D.C. and we went into a sandwich shop and there was a sign on the counter which said,

00:18:26.160 due to the rise of the price in eggs, all sandwiches, which include eggs, have gone up by a dollar.

00:18:31.600 And that tells you something very, very profound, which is the steep rise in food prices, but also the fact that there's going to be a lot of people who go in to buy a sandwich, see an increase of a dollar and go, I just can't afford that.

00:18:48.260 And what that actually tells you is people are at a breaking point here economically.

00:18:53.600 People are at a breaking point.

00:18:55.340 And that is a very, very dangerous place to be in for the average American because unlike, and we've said it, you've said it yourself, they don't have the safety net of welfare that we have in Europe.

00:19:08.120 So to have a hand-to-mouth existence in America and then thinking to yourself, you know what, maybe I'm not going to be able to make health insurance this month.

00:19:19.440 What happens if you don't make health insurance and then all of a sudden you come down with something?

00:19:24.380 Then what?

00:19:24.940 Then what happens then?

00:19:26.280 What, you lose your house, your car?

00:19:29.260 And if you lose your car as an American, this is what people don't really realize.

00:19:34.440 You can't really walk in this country unless you live in New York.

00:19:38.120 So the only way that you can actually really get around is by a car.

00:19:41.640 The only way you can really get to work is by a car.

00:19:44.260 And if you lose your car, that means that you lose your ability to work and get around.

00:19:49.140 It's a death sentence.

00:19:50.700 So there's a lot of people in this country who strike by month after month after month.

00:19:59.060 And if Trump wants to make America better, that's the most important thing for me is to make America better for those people.

00:20:06.980 Because that's the vast majority of Americans.

00:20:09.780 And I, whether, whatever my personal view on, forget about President Trump, it doesn't matter which side of the political debate you're on.

00:20:16.880 I think that's by far and away the biggest issue.

00:20:19.080 And I really hope that the current administration succeeds in making more, giving more Americans access to the American dream.

00:20:26.500 Because, you know, I thought Charlemagne, who we had on the show, made this point very well.

00:20:32.100 And Andrew Schultz talked about this as well when we interviewed him, which is the reason that you're seeing support for like that Luigi guy who killed a health care company, health insurance company executive,

00:20:44.160 and other movements of that kind, is that a hell of a lot of people don't have the hope that their American dream is supposed to provide to them.

00:20:54.720 And this reflects not only in the price of food and groceries and other things, but it's also about your ability to buy somewhere to live.

00:21:02.680 It applies to your ability to have kids and provide a life for them.

00:21:07.480 And that is a big, big, big issue.

00:21:09.860 And I really hope that what the Trump administration is doing is going to be successful in that.

00:21:14.580 We haven't talked about those yet.

00:21:16.180 And we haven't talked about the immigration situation and the deportation thing, because I think on both of those things,

00:21:24.180 what you're likely to find is that the solution is right and necessary.

00:21:29.020 But when you move this quickly, mistakes are going to get made.

00:21:32.620 Things are going to get, you know, things that shouldn't really be cut are going to get cut.

00:21:38.040 People who shouldn't be deported are going to get deported.

00:21:41.060 And this does seem to be some of that going on.

00:21:43.440 Yeah, and I think the problem is, is when there are people, not of course all people, but there will be ideologues on both sides.

00:21:51.420 And once ideology becomes the most important thing in a policy, that's when things start to go awry.

00:21:59.300 Because when you start thinking to yourself, actually, what is right and what is practical?

00:22:03.520 And there's going to be mistakes made.

00:22:04.920 But on both sides of the political spectrum, there are a lot of people who like punishing those people that they see

00:22:12.800 as being in the wrong, those people as being immoral, those people as, let's say as well, as being inferior.

00:22:19.400 And it is their job to go and get a little bit of justice.

00:22:25.040 And I think one of the things that we're starting to see on the right with certain aspects and certain people is there is a little bit of a desire for vengeance and justice.

00:22:36.700 And I find myself personally very uncomfortable with that.

00:22:41.560 Look, I think I'm, you and I joke about this all the time, you are more high empathy than I am.

00:22:47.720 I'm a lot lower empathy.

00:22:48.700 And because of that, I will say that I think this is true in Britain. 0.89

00:22:52.960 I think it's true in America.

00:22:54.400 After at least a decade of open borders, deporting criminals absolutely needs to happen.

00:23:01.540 Completely agree.

00:23:02.340 I have no reservation about that.

00:23:03.800 I have no empathy for people who come here legally and murder people, rape people, commit crimes. 1.00

00:23:08.640 They should be deported. 0.94

00:23:10.060 I don't particularly care if they end up in a maximum security prison in El Salvador.

00:23:14.920 Legally, there may be issues with that.

00:23:16.520 And that should go through the proper process.

00:23:19.380 But my concern is that in attempting to deal with those issues, it's very, very important that there is due process.

00:23:26.880 And we have seen one or two instances.

00:23:28.920 And it's hard to know what you believe based on what's going on, what's being reported of people who are not fitting of that description being deported to a country they've never even been to and being stuck in a prison with the worst criminals in the world.

00:23:43.180 And likewise with those, look, I'm on record of saying this and I will say it again.

00:23:48.320 Again, reducing the size of government is a massive, massive priority for every Western country.

00:23:55.320 It needs to be done.

00:23:56.820 And I'm not just talking about eliminating waste and fraud, which needs to be done.

00:24:01.320 And I hope to God that happens and it happens quickly.

00:24:05.000 And I think part of the reason they're doing it quickly, it's the only way to do it, because otherwise the machine and the blob is going to swallow you up.

00:24:11.700 But in that process, you're also potentially going to cause issues.

00:24:14.920 And so all of these things have to be done quickly and carefully.

00:24:19.480 And that's very, very difficult to do.

00:24:21.780 So I am excited for those.

00:24:24.260 And I hope we get one in the UK and in other countries.

00:24:28.320 But again, you just worry a little bit that as that happens, some babies get thrown out with the bathwater.

00:24:35.460 Gold just exploded past $2,800 an ounce, shattering all records.

00:24:40.740 This isn't just another headline.

00:24:42.400 It's part of what experts call the great wealth shift, the largest transfer of money from the middle class to the elites in history.

00:24:49.000 Here's what's really happening.

00:24:50.060 While inflation devours your savings, the wealthy are converting their dollars into gold.

00:24:55.500 They know that every time Washington prints more money, your retirement loses value.

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00:25:56.240 Listen, there's no denying it.

00:25:57.620 The shift is accelerating.

00:25:59.040 The question is, will you be ready?

00:26:01.180 Text Trigger to 35052 now.

00:26:04.200 Yeah, and what I've seen is, look, there's nothing wrong with enthusiasm.

00:26:10.560 There's nothing wrong with wanting to get things done.

00:26:13.500 What I think is a problem is when you start to rush things.

00:26:17.800 Because when you start to rush policies and policy implementation,

00:26:22.320 that is a moment where you're not actually taking due care and taking due process.

00:26:27.740 And look, let's be honest, people make mistakes.

00:26:31.960 Every time you implement a new policy, there's going to be things that you don't know.

00:26:35.440 You're going to, there's going to be errors that you make.

00:26:37.760 That is all perfectly natural.

00:26:39.560 But when you start to rush things and policies, that's the moment where

00:26:45.560 oversights get made, people get swept up, and things like maybe gay barbers, 0.56

00:26:53.840 gay Venezuelan barbers ending up in maximum security prisons. 0.78

00:26:56.920 And here's the other thing that we've spoken about and we spoke about on Rogan. 0.95

00:27:01.800 This is the tragedy of the mainstream media going off the deep end.

00:27:06.020 I don't know if it's true.

00:27:07.920 You don't know if it's true.

00:27:09.080 So we don't know if this guy is true and or it's just been a construct of left-wing media.

00:27:16.940 And that's a horrible situation to be in.

00:27:19.760 Because if the story is true, this is a human rights travesty.

00:27:24.600 Let's call it what it is.

00:27:25.680 It's a travesty.

00:27:27.500 But if it's not, then we're all being gaslit and manipulated.

00:27:31.200 And the worst thing is...

00:27:32.660 We don't know which one of those is right.

00:27:34.680 No.

00:27:35.420 So in good conscience, we talk about this and we have to add caveat after caveat after caveat,

00:27:41.460 which means we can't hold the right accountable.

00:27:44.200 Because we don't know what's true and what's not.

00:27:46.580 Yeah.

00:27:46.740 And we've been talking about this for a long time and we're here.

00:27:50.560 We are here.

00:27:51.380 And what the left did is they destroyed language and they destroyed faith in the mainstream media.

00:27:56.580 So now words like Nazi don't mean anything anymore.

00:28:00.580 And reporting in publications like Time Magazine, which is where that story was originated, or Forbes, etc.

00:28:06.560 We don't really know what to believe.

00:28:08.420 But I do also think, I think if you're objective about this, if you're not partisan, you have to recognize that when you're rounding up hundreds and hundreds of people, it is not unlikely that one or two people are going to get caught up in it.

00:28:20.960 Who are not supposed to be there, right?

00:28:25.420 And so what you'd hope is that there is a process for making sure that the people to whom this happens have access to due process, they can appeal, etc.

00:28:34.640 Which, you know, I hope that happens.

00:28:36.920 The problem is, you know, as we talked about with the signal story, when a government does things that it shouldn't do, the incentive structure is not likely to encourage them to admit that and correct.

00:28:47.240 The incentive structure is to pretend it didn't happen to cover it up, etc.

00:28:51.540 So I just, look, I really hope that in dealing with illegal immigration, the U.S. administration, and also if we ever get to that point in our country, I hope it gets dealt with quickly.

00:29:06.300 I don't massively care about, you know, we joke all the time about there was a guy who couldn't be deported from the U.K.

00:29:13.320 because his kid likes chicken nuggets, all of this stuff. 0.99

00:29:17.240 I don't give a shit about any of that. 0.99

00:29:18.640 If you come to a country illegally and commit crime, I don't massively care about making sure you're okay in every way. 0.98

00:29:26.200 Like, if you get deported and you end up in prison, good.

00:29:29.260 Yeah.

00:29:29.800 But we can't throw away the baby with the bathwater.

00:29:32.820 And I think one of the reasons America is so great is that there is a legal system that allows people recourse to appeal and so on.

00:29:40.160 And I think that's really important.

00:29:41.060 I think that's really important.

00:29:42.480 And also, America is going to have to have a discussion about we've seen case after case.

00:29:48.960 And again, I don't know what to think of them because I don't know about the veracity of the reporting.

00:29:54.600 But we hear about these people who attended a protest, pro-Palestine protest, or, you know, who organized protests, and they've been deported.

00:30:04.760 On the one hand, that makes me feel incredibly uncomfortable.

00:30:08.420 Incredibly uncomfortable.

00:30:09.400 Because if all you did was attend a protest, and all of a sudden you're off, I'm not cool with that.

00:30:14.860 I'm going to be honest with you.

00:30:16.080 If you took part and attended and organized a protest which threatened, intimidated people, damaged public property, defacing public property, all the rest of it, I'm not particularly cool with that.

00:30:30.740 And I understand why that particular government would want you out of the country.

00:30:36.120 But America needs to have a very frank conversation about what is acceptable.

00:30:43.260 What is it that is acceptable for people, for non-U.S. citizens to do when they have a visa in this country?

00:30:51.460 Now, look, here's where I'll say something that I think is a very complicated issue.

00:30:56.400 My understanding, I don't know the law very well.

00:30:59.460 I have read a few things about it.

00:31:01.360 And my understanding is it's very complicated.

00:31:03.980 However, you and I, I think, are always going to err on the side of people being allowed to speak their mind and not be punished for it.

00:31:11.260 And so from that perspective, I think deporting people who express their lawful opinion in public, even if it's a protest, I think is totally wrong.

00:31:19.020 On the other hand, and this is not about the specific incident.

00:31:22.380 So just to be clear, I think people who say things that people don't like shouldn't be deported from the country.

00:31:27.760 Just as a matter of principle, I'm not talking about these specific cases because I don't know the details exactly.

00:31:33.220 You know, the claim is they were pro-Hamas or whatever.

00:31:36.540 I don't know if that's true.

00:31:38.100 But if they are pro-Hamas, I think that needs to be established in court as opposed to someone just saying it and then these people being removed.

00:31:44.460 On the other hand, it's not even on the other hand, that is said, and I don't take back any of that.

00:31:52.680 But you and I are visitors to the United States.

00:31:56.000 Would you go to a protest to protest about stuff in this country as a visitor?

00:32:03.060 No.

00:32:03.500 And neither would I.

00:32:06.220 And I think the reason for that is, is there's a fundamental recognition that there's a difference between a citizen, between being a citizen of a country and being a visitor there or having a visa to come there.

00:32:16.440 And, you know, we've got a conversation that will come out in a while with Barry Strauss, who's one of our favorite historians, talking about the collapse of the Roman Empire and how he sees parallels in the modern world.

00:32:28.300 And one of the things he mentioned is once you erode the concept of citizenship and the privileges and the duties that come with that, that's when you're going down a very dangerous path.

00:32:38.560 And I think that's true.

00:32:39.980 And my sense is that, again, I say I think the legal system in America in relation to this issue is quite complicated.

00:32:47.480 And so I'm not commenting on that.

00:32:48.880 I'm just saying as a matter of principle.

00:32:50.320 I think it's perfectly fine for a distinction to be made between citizens and non-citizens.

00:32:59.040 And I think actually that distinction needs to be made stronger and wider.

00:33:04.280 And I think we need to say that in order for us to have a cohesive society, you gain lots of rights and duties when you become a citizen of the country.

00:33:15.040 And until you are, you may not be subject to all the exact same rules.

00:33:19.880 And I say that as someone who was for a very long time in that position in Britain as a first generation immigrant and someone who visits the United States. 0.92

00:33:27.820 I don't feel entitled to act like a dick in America because this isn't my country.

00:33:34.980 And when we talk about American politics and policy and things that happen here, I think we both always try to do it from a place of understanding that this isn't our country and we have a respect for it. 0.74

00:33:45.580 And there's certain things we don't understand about it.

00:33:47.640 And I think if setting aside the legalistic arguments and setting aside the fact that we already said people who just express their opinion, in our view, should not be removed from a country.

00:33:59.200 But Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, makes the point that if you told us when you made your visa applications, and you and I both know that the process for getting an American visa is quite involved.

00:34:10.120 And rightly so.

00:34:10.940 You know, why shouldn't you be able to just come here?

00:34:12.940 I disagree.

00:34:13.680 All you need to do is be on an interview with Theo Vaughn, mate, and they let you straight in.

00:34:17.000 That was your experience with the embassy, but not mine.

00:34:20.260 And my point is this.

00:34:21.500 I think that if you – what he's saying is if you told us that this is what you would do on your visa application, we never would have let you into the country. 0.95

00:34:33.020 And I think that distinction is also important.

00:34:37.160 I think we have to, as a culture in Britain certainly, and I would argue in America as well as an outsider, make the distinction very clear between people who are here as visitors and people who have taken on the opportunity and also the burden of citizenship.

00:34:53.640 And when you take on the duties and burdens of citizenship, that comes with an expanded set of rights.

00:34:59.580 I don't think it is in the interest of our country or the interest of America to welcome lots of people from other countries so that they can then start basically slagging off this country. 1.00

00:35:09.820 I don't really see how that is appropriate.

00:35:14.740 And so what I'm saying is I think we really have to dial in on this idea that we can't just let loads of people in who don't like our society.

00:35:27.820 And to the extent that these people are demonstrating elements of that, and I don't know if they are.

00:35:32.420 I don't know if they are.

00:35:33.300 And like I said, I'm very uncomfortable with people being persecuted for saying things out loud.

00:35:37.420 But I do think that distinction between citizen and non-citizen needs to be expanded very significantly.

00:35:42.640 And I think overall we need to be a lot firmer with people who are not citizens. 1.00

00:35:48.520 Like, for example, in Britain, you can get access to the benefit system.

00:35:52.920 You can get social housing.

00:35:54.380 I don't understand why that's the case if you're not a British citizen.

00:35:58.440 Absolutely.

00:35:59.140 Look, I agree with you on that.

00:36:00.780 But I think what you're going to need to do, like you said, is we're going to need to have, quite frankly, an uncomfortable conversation.

00:36:07.640 And then very clear rules are going to need to be delineated.

00:36:11.720 They're just going to have to.

00:36:13.240 Because whilst you've got this grey area, the reality is it is unfair on people who are getting deported because they didn't know the rules.

00:36:22.520 Yes.

00:36:22.680 They didn't know the rules.

00:36:23.900 And if the rules didn't exist or they weren't made clear and all of a sudden you get your door kicked down and off you go, you can quite rightly say, hey, all I did was organize help to organize a few protests.

00:36:35.500 Why are you getting rid of me?

00:36:36.740 That was never explained to me because if it was, I wouldn't have done it.

00:36:41.240 So, again, it comes down to being clear because if the rules are clearly expressed, then if you break them, that's on you.

00:36:54.220 But if there are no rules or they're particularly muddy, I mean, people have a right to then criticize.

00:37:01.680 And, by the way, I'm not talking about, you know, things like defacing public property, intimidatory protests, all of that.

00:37:13.440 But we need to have this conversation because if we don't have it, we're going to continue being in this grey area and that is not good for anybody.

00:37:21.980 It's not good for the citizens and it's not good for the people who come here on short-term or long-term visas because they don't understand the rules, particularly with young people. 1.00

00:37:31.680 Who, as we all know, are far more impetuous, they're far more likely to think their decisions through, who are far more likely to get involved in activism and politics because that's what you do.

00:37:42.500 So they need to know.

00:37:43.940 Yeah.

00:37:44.820 Otherwise, it's unfair.

00:37:47.500 And I just think, I think now is the time for America to have those conversations.

00:37:54.640 Not just for America.

00:37:55.700 For all of us to have those conversations.

00:37:57.720 Because we have been living in this world where open borders, you know, we want to be open to the rest of the world.

00:38:05.880 We want to make decisions that actually aren't good, but feel good.

00:38:11.360 And a lot of good decisions don't make you feel good.

00:38:14.620 It's not nice to eat a salad, mate.

00:38:17.360 Particularly when you're in America where you've got all of these other options.

00:38:21.940 Yeah, we have enjoyed the food, as you can see from my fat faces. 0.77

00:38:24.540 Yeah, and our fat neck or my fat neck. 1.00

00:38:26.940 So the reality is we need to start having difficult conversations and we need to start making difficult decisions.

00:38:35.620 Yeah, and I'm very, very comfortable with, as I say, delineating between citizens and not citizens in a very, very, very thorough way.

00:38:45.420 Like I said, I don't think you should get access to the benefit system.

00:38:47.860 I don't think you should get access to social housing.

00:38:50.360 I don't think, I think you should only be in the country if you are a net contributor.

00:38:56.640 Absolutely.

00:38:57.040 And if you come to Britain and you spend your time on benefits and you spend on time living in social housing, why are you in the country?

00:39:04.780 I don't understand.

00:39:05.580 What is it?

00:39:06.100 Why is that in the interest of Britain?

00:39:08.180 It's not in the interest of Britain.

00:39:09.520 And that just has to end.

00:39:10.580 And I think the reason that these things are happening in America in this way is that, frankly, a lot of people in the West are saying, look, we are welcoming of immigrants.

00:39:20.320 But if you come in our house, you have to make yourself a valuable contributor.

00:39:29.340 Otherwise, why are you here?

00:39:30.960 And I think that's a perfectly fair question.

00:39:34.340 Of course.

00:39:34.820 A perfectly fair question.

00:39:36.020 So that's another conversation.

00:39:39.000 And of course, the one thing that as we sit here, we're at the end of March.

00:39:44.260 So it's been two and a half months or close to it since the new administration has come in, is some of the promises around Ukraine and Israel have yet to materialize.

00:39:58.200 So Donald Trump said he would end the Ukraine war on day one.

00:40:01.620 That isn't happening.

00:40:03.160 I'm sure we both have some thoughts on that.

00:40:05.300 And likewise, in Israel, there was a ceasefire that was broken that is not held.

00:40:10.620 And as we sit here, we saw some anti-Hamas protests in Gaza.

00:40:16.060 I just read a story.

00:40:17.420 Again, not sure if it's true.

00:40:18.620 But as we sit here, the leader of those protests has been shot by Hamas.

00:40:22.340 And what have you taken away from the conversations we've had and other things that we've noticed here about those two issues?

00:40:31.220 I think one of the things I've actually taken away from it is we thought Trump's attitude to geopolitics was going to be one way.

00:40:41.080 It was going to be a particular way.

00:40:42.460 It was going to be very Eurocentric.

00:40:44.180 We were going to be in it together.

00:40:45.780 As we mentioned at the start, I don't think that's going to be the case.

00:40:48.940 I don't think I ever thought that.

00:40:52.100 Maybe I did.

00:40:53.240 I thought he would put America first.

00:40:55.440 But in the process of that, he would seek to get the right deal in Ukraine.

00:41:00.060 He would seek.

00:41:00.860 Do you see what I mean?

00:41:01.460 Yeah, yeah.

00:41:01.780 But I always thought he was going to put America first.

00:41:04.060 But we were going to still be.

00:41:05.420 We were still going to be on very friendly terms.

00:41:07.960 It was going to be America first, but he was still going to be an Anglophile.

00:41:11.440 He was still going to want to broadly work with us.

00:41:15.640 I think what has happened and the way you've seen them talk about Ukraine and their attitude and things like the minerals deal, I think that that has shown you that Ukraine is not their priority.

00:41:30.160 It is.

00:41:30.620 And you have to accept that as as awful as it is for Europeans who understand because of the closer proximity to the war and to the Ukrainian people, the horrendous suffering that is going on there.

00:41:43.160 The loss of life.

00:41:45.760 I think the reality is it is simply not a priority for the Americans.

00:41:50.300 And we have to accept that as awful as that is.

00:41:53.800 And for them, their priority is getting a deal done as quickly as possible so they can move on to the next thing.

00:42:00.020 They're not that interested in whether the deal is going to hold for the long term is personally what I think.

00:42:06.440 I think so as well.

00:42:07.520 Well, and I think that that is that is going to be a tragic mistake.

00:42:11.100 And I don't say that because I support Ukraine or anything like that.

00:42:15.560 I say that because if the deal is not made in a way that is capable of being held permanently, in a way that Russia is prevented and disincentivized from invading again, then it will invade again. 0.60

00:42:31.480 And if that happens, we are going to be back here again, but in a worse place.

00:42:37.500 And not only that, I think that if if if the Trump administration is perceived by other countries to effectively have sold Ukraine down the river, what you're going to end up with is every country that fears Russia or any other big, powerful country will will have a very obvious incentive to pursue nuclear weapons.

00:42:59.120 I think that's inevitable. And I have to say, we interviewed our friend, Dr. Sebastian Gorka, in who I think you're very anti Putin from our previous conversations with him.

00:43:09.400 But what I heard from him did not persuade me that the White House is pursuing a policy that will ensure permanent long term peace in Ukraine.

00:43:16.720 That's not what I heard. And that is just not what I heard.

00:43:19.820 And then we listened to Donald Trump's special envoy, Steve Witkoff, on Tucker Carlson's show.

00:43:28.940 And when I watched that, look, I don't know, maybe he seems like a very nice man.

00:43:32.220 He seems like a lovely man who thinks the best of everyone, who's trying to ratchet down the rhetoric, make sure that the conversations can be had.

00:43:39.720 But I have to say, based on that conversation, he doesn't have the first clue about this conflict.

00:43:47.880 He has no idea what's going on. He couldn't name the regions that he was talking about in Ukraine.

00:43:53.520 He completely misunderstands the reason for Russia's invasion.

00:43:56.840 He completely misunderstands almost every aspect of why that conflict is going on.

00:44:01.420 And he's going to be up against people in the in the Putin government who have spent decades training for this moment.

00:44:12.680 And this is the thing, you know, he talks about how President Putin was very nice to him.

00:44:16.860 And I'm sure he was. But you've got to understand something.

00:44:21.400 You may hate Vladimir Putin. You may love Vladimir Putin. It doesn't really matter.

00:44:26.420 You have to understand who the man is. He has been in charge of Russia for the last 26 years.

00:44:31.420 And prior to that, he was a KGB man and still is. There's no such thing as an ex-KGB man. 0.53

00:44:38.020 In other words, he has spent his entire life training to deceive, to manipulate, to take advantage, to expose and to wield every tool in that toolbox to achieve the best possible outcome for him.

00:44:53.920 And he's up against a guy who doesn't know the geography of the area that he's talking about.

00:45:02.220 And my worry is, in their desire to end this as quickly as possible, and with that sort of approach, they're going to get, as we say in Britain, get taken to the cleaners.

00:45:13.920 And if that happens, that is not just going to be a bad thing for Ukraine.

00:45:19.340 It's going to be a bad thing for the world.

00:45:21.300 And I'm very, very concerned that that's where this is going.

00:45:24.520 I really don't see.

00:45:25.780 Look, the stopping of the massacre of both Ukrainian and Russian young men and increasingly old men in Ukraine is an idea that everyone should be behind.

00:45:37.140 We need a peace deal.

00:45:38.820 There is no progress being made.

00:45:40.820 Neither side is really winning, although Russia is edging forward.

00:45:43.180 But if this doesn't end in a way that ensures long-term security, this is just going to get deferred until another time when Vladimir Putin comes back for more.

00:45:54.300 That is not a good thing to do.

00:45:56.640 And increasing the risk of nuclear proliferation in the world is not a good thing to do either.

00:46:01.000 And that's where this is going.

00:46:02.260 What do you think?

00:46:04.560 Because we've had people on the show talk about this.

00:46:08.920 We have had numerous people on the show talk about this.

00:46:12.740 I've seen this narrative being discussed online that the U.S. isn't really interested in Ukraine.

00:46:20.300 It's only interested in resolving the situation with maximum speed, minimum fuss.

00:46:26.360 Because their number one priority is not Russia-Ukraine.

00:46:33.700 It's China. 0.90

00:46:34.920 China is the thing that it's worried about.

00:46:37.440 So the last thing it wants to do is antagonize Russia, because then Russia will seek to become allies with China.

00:46:44.320 And it's far more beneficial for the U.S. to ally with Russia, thereby strengthening their alliance so that they become less vulnerable to the Chinese. 0.79

00:46:58.160 That's a fair point.

00:46:59.180 And I'm not sufficiently educated about that issue to really comment.

00:47:03.440 The one thing that came into my mind as you were talking is I remember when I was on tour with Jordan Peterson last year here in America.

00:47:09.020 In one of the Q&A sessions, I think a guy asked, you know, my wife talks so much, you know, I can't handle hours and hours of talking to my wife.

00:47:21.640 It's causing a strain in our relationship.

00:47:24.040 And he went, you've got two choices.

00:47:26.320 Either you listen to your wife now or you listen to her in therapy or you listen to her in divorce.

00:47:33.280 Right.

00:47:33.920 And this is the problem.

00:47:35.260 Right.

00:47:35.800 If you try and run away from things that you don't like, but you don't address the root of the problem, you end up causing more problems down the line.

00:47:45.320 And that's my concern about this particular shift in policy.

00:47:48.480 And that's why I said, you know, what Seb said in our interview didn't reassure me because he was like, well, as long as Donald Trump's president, everything is going to be fine.

00:47:55.980 Even if we accept that that's true, that is not a long term solution.

00:47:59.700 And even if J.D. Vance has two terms after President Trump, which we don't have any guarantee of at this point, we don't know that that's a long term solution either.

00:48:09.620 Nor, by the way, do we know who the next president of Russia is going to be.

00:48:13.840 So ultimately, unless there is a Korean style demilitarized zone with a peacekeeping force of some kind on that border, it seems to me that there isn't any logical reason why the invasion wouldn't be repeated. 0.92

00:48:28.360 And then the entire world wouldn't find itself right here again, except in that time, Russia's had a chance to recover, is in a stronger position, maybe has a different leader.

00:48:39.100 Maybe the Western world is led by different people who are willing to let things happen or are too weak to prevent them.

00:48:44.720 So, yeah, I'm glad the efforts are being made to secure peace in Ukraine.

00:48:50.680 That's important and necessary.

00:48:52.460 I'm very, very concerned that the way that's going to get done is not the way that it should be.

00:48:57.440 Yeah. And that is a worry for all of us. And it's a worry for Europe. It really is.

00:49:03.520 And it's why Europe needs to step up.

00:49:05.080 It's why Europe needs to step up. And it's why Europe, quite frankly, needs to get its head out of its ass and realize that a lot of these policies that it's been pursuing are, quite frankly, they're not just self-harm. 0.98

00:49:17.280 It's self-destruction. You're obliterating your own economy. 0.99

00:49:21.380 You are weakening not only your economy, but your ability to defend itself.

00:49:25.960 Because we've been living in this Francis Fukuyama, you know, the end of history, man.

00:49:31.000 We're like, you know, we've got beyond war. It's all cool now because we're trading and, you know, you've got a McDonald's.

00:49:37.500 I've got a McDonald's. That's great, isn't it?

00:49:40.380 Yeah. But a few years ago, we woke up and we smoked the coffee and we realized that world is over.

00:49:45.760 So what are you going to do? You're going to carry on with your delusion and just like hanging out and being like, oh, this is all right.

00:49:52.240 This is fine. Or are you actually going to realize that the world has changed and we need to change with it?

00:49:58.600 The one thing for balance that I think we can be very positive about, or at least it seems like at the moment, is what's happening in the Middle East.

00:50:05.640 Because what you see, the current White House understands very well that the conflicts, not just in Israel and Gaza, but elsewhere in the Middle East, are about one thing, which is Islamists versus everybody else. 0.94

00:50:17.340 And so what I see them doing is they're attempting to align the moderate Arab governments with Israel against those forces, because the Arab rulers of those countries who are Muslims, they don't want anything to do with Islamists because Islamists are a direct threat to them. 0.69

00:50:37.420 Of course.

00:50:37.680 Because Islamists don't believe in nation states. They want a caliphate. They want to remove those people who lead those countries and replace them with one big caliphate.

00:50:46.040 And of course, we all know that that is being funded and encouraged by Iran. 0.86

00:50:51.220 So Donald Trump was able to make quite a bit of progress in his first term, and it looks like they are very clear headed about what's happening in the Middle East and are moving in the right direction.

00:51:02.460 Gaza aside, you know, that's obviously a big mess. And, you know, we hope that that ends because it's terrible what's happening there. 0.99

00:51:10.280 But I think I'm much more hopeful about their plan for the Middle East.

00:51:14.180 Yes. And when we were talking to Sebastian Gorka, he made it, he was saying, look, there's things that we can't talk about, but we are going to be tackling that head on.

00:51:26.280 And that's what Iran needs. Iran needs to be tackled head on because for too long, and we saw that with Biden, with giving a huge amount of money to Iran. 0.60

00:51:38.080 A huge amount of money, which to me, I didn't understand the first thing about why they would do that.

00:51:44.700 I'm not sure Biden did either.

00:51:46.640 God bless him. But it has been allowed to continue now.

00:51:50.860 You cannot have a nation funding terrorist groups whose explicit aim is to destabilize other countries and not just Israel, by the way, but Lebanon as well.

00:52:06.140 And, you know, in other countries, every country in every country, you simply can't have it.

00:52:10.980 So you're facing with two options. Either you kind of basically rely on Israel to hold it together, which it can't do, because eventually, like October the 7th, something will happen, something will get through. 0.78

00:52:25.460 Or you realize that the only way to do this is by tackling the problem.

00:52:29.960 And that's it. So, like you, I am more hopeful on the situation with Iran, which I didn't think I'd be saying.

00:52:40.120 I thought it'd be the other way around, if I'm being honest.

00:52:42.340 Interesting.

00:52:43.120 I thought it'd be the other way around. I thought they were going to be much tougher on Putin.

00:52:47.640 I have found that the way they have spoken, and look, people go, hey, look, these are just tactics and whatever else.

00:52:55.400 I don't agree with that.

00:52:56.560 I think words of consequences, if you call Zelensky a dictator, I'll be honest with you, I think that's over the line.

00:53:03.500 You can make legitimate criticisms. Fair enough.

00:53:07.360 You can say, I have found the Ukrainian leadership when it comes to the discussions unhelpful on X, Y, and Z.

00:53:13.700 I have found Putin X, whatever it is.

00:53:16.780 But you can't make claims like that.

00:53:19.760 Because what it does is that has a very significant impact on the populace of your country.

00:53:25.740 I have actually been shocked when in Austin I've gone to parties and people have been saying things like, you know, Zelensky's a dictator and, you know, Putin, all he's doing is trying to reclaim what's rightfully his.

00:53:38.680 That's quite a mainstream position in large swathes of this country.

00:53:45.020 And I think part of it is, like you say, the rhetoric, part of it is also, and I think Charlemagne made this point, and it made a lot of sense to me, which is people begin to care.

00:53:53.240 Let's be honest, right?

00:53:54.840 Let's be honest.

00:53:56.040 Americans don't mind spending a bit of money bombing a country on the other side of the world, right?

00:54:01.760 They've never had an issue with that.

00:54:03.780 Americans like having a powerful military and they're prepared to use it.

00:54:07.340 Yeah.

00:54:07.900 The problem is when ordinary people are hurting, that's when they suddenly start going, well, why are we sending money to this country?

00:54:13.280 Why are we sending money to that country?

00:54:15.000 And, of course, they're not hurting because they sent $100 billion worth of weaponry to Ukraine.

00:54:20.660 That sounds like a lot of money, and it is.

00:54:22.220 But that is a drop in the ocean when it comes to the United States budget, right?

00:54:28.380 The reason they're hurting is decades of government mismanagement of the economy.

00:54:33.420 And that's where, again, I'm very excited.

00:54:35.860 I think the re-industrialization agenda is great.

00:54:41.660 I really hope that happens in America, and I really hope that inspires us in the UK in particular, but elsewhere in the Western world.

00:54:48.880 But we have got to recognize that we do not live in the Francis Fukuyama wonderland.

00:54:54.700 We have to be able to produce our own steel.

00:54:57.600 We have to be able to produce our own energy.

00:54:59.820 We have to be able to make things.

00:55:01.280 And that's important not only for defense.

00:55:03.120 It's important for our people to have meaningful jobs that allow them to make money, put food on the table, have a family.

00:55:11.700 These things are very, very important.

00:55:13.140 And re-industrializing our countries is a big part of that, and it's necessary.

00:55:19.020 And we have been de-industrializing in the UK for far too long.

00:55:24.820 We have let our industries wither on the vine because we'll be like, hey, look, we can just rely on insurance and financial services.

00:55:32.360 London's making a killing.

00:55:33.840 Why does it matter?

00:55:35.700 Well, you know why it matters?

00:55:37.000 Because you go out of London and you go to some of these provincial towns and cities, which have had the literal hearts ripped out of them.

00:55:43.300 And the people, it's completely, it's heartbreak.

00:55:48.940 It's heartbreak.

00:55:49.600 You remember when we were doing comedy and you were going up and down to this moment?

00:55:52.660 That was heartbreak.

00:55:53.400 Yeah.

00:55:54.180 That was more for the audience, mate.

00:55:55.640 But anyway, but you were going to these towns and cities and it was devoid of hope.

00:56:01.840 There was no industry there.

00:56:03.940 It was miserable.

00:56:05.120 It was depressing.

00:56:06.480 It was people living a life without dignity.

00:56:09.000 Not everybody can be a recruitment consultant in London.

00:56:13.960 It can't absorb all those people.

00:56:17.380 You need to have something else.

00:56:19.440 We always had really, really great manufacturing in the UK and we just let it go because we were living in this world of going, we don't need it.

00:56:29.880 But just like with all delusions, there comes a point.

00:56:33.300 You either wake up and you live in the real world or you continue to live in the delusion until the real world wakes you up.

00:56:40.000 Well, the real world is about to wake Britain up because we're headed for bankruptcy.

00:56:44.880 And this is not an exaggeration.

00:56:47.040 Liam Halligan, who we just had on the show, he wrote about this on the Substack.

00:56:50.180 We are heading to an IMF bailout.

00:56:53.380 That's the direction we're going in.

00:56:55.440 And no amount of raising taxes is going to help that.

00:56:58.860 Right.

00:56:59.460 We've got to grow the economy.

00:57:00.900 We've got to scrap net zero immediately.

00:57:03.180 We have got to do everything possible to produce our own energy.

00:57:06.060 I don't care how much carbon it produces.

00:57:07.640 I'm sorry.

00:57:08.160 I don't.

00:57:08.980 We have to look after our people today and our children and our grandchildren who are going to be paying these debts off for the next 60 years.

00:57:16.540 If we're lucky.

00:57:17.800 So we've got to grow the economy.

00:57:19.580 We've got to cut all of these luxury beliefs.

00:57:22.440 And that is going to be a big shift.

00:57:24.980 And it's not going to be easy and it's not going to be painless.

00:57:28.220 But we our country needs to wake up.

00:57:31.040 People in America have had that wake up call.

00:57:32.980 And to the extent that they're doing good things, I think we should be inspired by that.

00:57:36.700 And we should bring that to the UK and take the best of it and do everything we can.

00:57:42.780 Because otherwise, we're just going to continue to decline.

00:57:45.440 And I don't want that for our country.

00:57:47.060 No, I don't know.

00:57:47.720 I don't want it.

00:57:48.500 It's it's you.

00:57:50.580 I'll be honest with you.

00:57:51.860 Sometimes when I come to America and they make jokes about what's going on in the UK.

00:57:58.080 And look, the jokes are good and they're fair. 1.00

00:58:00.120 And you want to tell them to go fuck themselves. 1.00

00:58:01.780 Yeah, I really do. 1.00

00:58:03.260 I really do.

00:58:04.500 Because.

00:58:04.760 But you're not in a position to.

00:58:05.900 No, because it's embarrassing. 0.98

00:58:07.840 It's like having a kid and he's fat and he's coming last at sports day and everyone's taking the piss out of him. 0.94

00:58:13.620 And you're going, well, what can I say? 0.92

00:58:18.180 I've got no comeback.

00:58:19.280 I've got nothing.

00:58:20.600 It's embarrassing.

00:58:22.000 It really is embarrassing.

00:58:24.320 When you.

00:58:24.980 We were here.

00:58:26.140 We've been here for two weeks.

00:58:28.700 There's a story about somebody being put in a police cell because of complaints on a parent's WhatsApp group because of complaints they made about a teacher.

00:58:41.100 You're going, what is going on?

00:58:43.620 There were six police officers, I think, if not more, come to arrest them.

00:58:48.740 What?

00:58:49.820 What's happening?

00:58:51.020 Did he have a license for that opinion, mate?

00:58:52.820 No, that is probably true, mate.

00:58:54.160 Yeah, that is true.

00:58:55.120 You make a strong case there.

00:58:56.900 He didn't.

00:58:57.640 What's happening in Britain is just we're becoming the laughingstock of the world.

00:59:02.060 I don't think we're becoming.

00:59:03.580 I think we are there, mate.

00:59:04.920 It's true.

00:59:05.860 It's true. 1.00

00:59:06.320 So all of that shit needs to end. 0.99

00:59:07.960 Obviously, we've got a Labour government who I'm sure are going to do everything in their power to sort that out. 0.99

00:59:13.620 But even the Labour government, I mean, if you look at the economics of it, the Labour government is making massive cuts.

00:59:20.600 They're not big enough for what we need, but they're still making cuts because everyone knows we're in a completely unsustainable situation.

00:59:27.360 So that wake-up call, and if we don't, look, and this is what's going to happen.

00:59:31.940 This much I can tell you with some confidence.

00:59:35.140 Either we heed to that wake-up call now or things are going to get worse until there's a wake-up call we simply cannot ignore.

00:59:43.240 Yeah.

00:59:43.380 That is the choice that Britain faces today.

00:59:45.940 And that's where we are.

00:59:48.440 Yeah.

00:59:49.460 That is where we are.

00:59:50.600 But look.

00:59:51.600 All right. 1.00

00:59:52.440 America's fucked. 1.00

00:59:53.280 Britain's fucked. 1.00

00:59:53.940 The world's fucked. 1.00

00:59:55.000 Thanks for watching. 0.99

00:59:55.700 Give us money.

00:59:57.520 To give us money, head on over to Substack, where we're about to answer questions that you guys have sent in.

01:00:03.060 The link is in the description.

01:00:06.000 Frederick says, how did you find the White House, and what was the feeling walking into the building?

01:00:11.360 How did I find the White House?

01:00:14.200 There's a couple of questions about whether we plan to move to America.

01:00:17.500 Yeah.

01:00:17.700 Yeah.

01:00:25.700 Broadway's smash hit, the Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise, is coming to Toronto.

01:00:34.380 The true story of a kid from Brooklyn destined for something more, featuring all the songs you love, including America, Forever in Blue Jeans, and Sweet Caroline.

01:00:43.060 Like Jersey Boys and Beautiful, the next musical mega hit is here, the Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise.

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01:00:54.660 Get tickets at murbush.com.

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TRIGGERnometry - April 04, 2025

We Went to America - This Is What We Saw

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