TRIGGERnometry - What's It Like to Work for Jeremy Corbyn？

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00:00:30.000 People on the left are like, why are you still a member of the Labour Party?

00:00:32.860 Why would you vote for the Labour Party?

00:00:34.560 The reason I would vote for it is to destroy it.

00:00:47.220 I was a spokesperson for Jeremy Corbyn between 2016 and 2017.

00:00:51.080 I'm off.

00:00:54.960 One of the things I really like about you is you, you know,

00:00:58.620 whatever your ideological leanings you're someone who tries to work across different lines and you

00:01:03.200 you're interested in talking to people with different points of view and trying to persuade

00:01:06.520 people as opposed to you know screaming shouting the way we do politics nowadays right um and uh

00:01:12.700 how do you reflect on your time in politics does it allow for that sort of thing have we got worse

00:01:17.640 at doing that better at doing that what were your experiences like uh well um i've i've slowly come

00:01:23.600 to terms with the realization that uh maybe we're not going to build uh socialism in britain

00:01:28.480 anytime soon how did you realize that that's a genuinely interesting question

00:01:35.080 or was that just a joke uh no no i mean look obviously the corbyn project uh went the way

00:01:40.540 the way it went and uh had its many different structural challenges that were he's gone into

00:01:47.440 political speak now isn't it it didn't work out it didn't work out um and look i mean i i think

00:01:55.860 that there's a lot of areas where i public policy and governance can be improved and i'm willing to

00:02:05.840 and quite enthusiastic about working cross-party and working with whoever wants to deliver those

00:02:11.240 things and improve those things and quite pragmatic so if people share my objectives and

00:02:18.140 perspective on particular policy areas which like i think gambling cuts across political lines

00:02:22.380 obviously there are ideological elements to it of course as we've touched on but i think

00:02:26.400 fundamentally like it does cut across political lines and and their scope to work collaboratively

00:02:32.320 and i think that there are other such areas um and i think that that's kind of where

00:02:37.340 i'd prefer to spend my energy because the labor party and the internal politics can sap

00:02:44.700 a person's energy quite quickly and create a level of despondency that isn't productive yeah so yeah

00:02:51.680 well i wasn't getting it at it actually from a sort of left right point of view i think

00:02:56.280 actually there's there's increasingly this is also happening on the right this sort of

00:03:01.620 tribalism and you believe this therefore you must be outcast and we're going to cancel you 1.00

00:03:06.560 from this tribe you don't belong uh like we had david starkey on the show uh some time ago and he

00:03:13.500 said that he's pro-mandatory vaccination which to me is an abhorrent view but david starkey has a

00:03:19.440 right to say it and i'm still going to be uh you know polite and have that conversation even though

00:03:24.200 i massively disagree and then someone wrote an article saying david starkey is not one of us

00:03:29.400 you know and I'm just like you're not you're not going to get very far in anything you're

00:03:38.100 trying to solve in the world if your attitude is this person has a position I fundamentally

00:03:42.620 disagree with therefore you you can't be spoken with and had a conversation yeah did you see that

00:03:49.620 that is that a new thing in politics or is that has it always been like this in your in your

00:03:53.240 experience i think i think um it's a relatively new phenomenon and i think it's from brought about

00:03:59.580 by social media and the kind of silos that people create and the echo chambers and positive

00:04:07.900 reinforcement that people get from like-minded people and i think that that that's part of the

00:04:13.780 issue yeah um i mean david starkey may be a slightly controversial example um given some

00:04:21.420 of his comments in the past um but like yeah i mean i think that it's it's a relatively new

00:04:26.380 phenomenon i think it's part of the social media era and and um yeah i mean it's interesting i

00:04:33.880 think like because like a political strategy particularly for like a left populist or even

00:04:41.120 any any kind of populist movement would be to mobilize the base and move the middle as a result

00:04:46.560 and a lot of emphasis goes on mobilizing the base

00:04:50.900 and keeping the base on side and happy

00:04:53.440 and as a result of that, you know, dictating the terms of debate.

00:04:56.500 So I think populism as well as a political strategy

00:04:59.820 is probably fed into that.

00:05:02.100 I think a lot of parties and successive political leaders

00:05:04.800 have adopted that approach,

00:05:07.200 which does, I think, polarize people more.

00:05:10.900 And Matt, looking at the future of politics

00:05:13.700 and in particular the future of the Labour Party.

00:05:17.420 Do you think that it's got any real future in a party as a whole?

00:05:21.660 Because the reality is, look, you would probably identify

00:05:23.980 as a left-wing progressive, is that fair?

00:05:26.020 Yeah, a Social Democrat, yeah.

00:05:27.020 Yeah, and then you look at Keir Starmer,

00:05:30.160 your values in Keir Starmer's are completely opposite

00:05:32.920 and I can't imagine you being on board with what Starmer does.

00:05:37.340 Can the Labour Party really hold these broad coalition of people together?

00:05:41.220 Yeah, I think it's quite illustrative of how polarised the Labour Party is, given you've got a situation where a new leader has kicked out the previous leader.

00:05:55.780 I mean, I know that there's a context and I know that there's other, you know, factors.

00:05:59.040 But that is quite like a Stalinist thing to do, isn't it?

00:06:02.240 Exactly, yeah. It's like, and, you know, I just noticed that poster up there.

00:06:07.140 The audience can't see it, but we've got the poster,

00:06:09.540 which actually is in our merch store,

00:06:10.920 which says cancel culture is a myth

00:06:12.240 and it's Joseph Stalin's face on it.

00:06:14.300 Yeah.

00:06:14.740 That is the sort of thing that happens generally in dictatorships, right?

00:06:17.640 You come in, you get rid of the previous people.

00:06:19.580 The previous guy, yeah.

00:06:20.560 And that's kind of, yeah.

00:06:22.740 So it does show.

00:06:23.580 Look, I mean, I think one of the best things

00:06:26.960 that could happen to the Labour Party

00:06:28.200 is proportional representation

00:06:30.320 and the Labour Party to split into its various different factions

00:06:34.300 and form two or three different parties.

00:06:38.520 And then everyone goes their separate ways

00:06:40.260 and we can all live in peaceful coexistence.

00:06:43.460 He really didn't have a good time, did he?

00:06:47.080 In the day of a party.

00:06:49.240 See, I agree with you and I disagree with you.

00:06:53.280 I agree with you that actually it would be far more harmonious.

00:06:56.420 People could get their views properly represented.

00:06:59.420 You know, it would be far more effective as a party

00:07:02.700 and people would look at it,

00:07:04.120 the left-wing progressives would go,

00:07:05.280 well, I'm going to vote for the Momentum Party,

00:07:07.120 you know, the centre-left people,

00:07:08.840 the centrists, you know,

00:07:10.220 the people who are pro-Remain, etc., etc.,

00:07:13.420 would vote for this party.

00:07:14.820 But doesn't that mean that

00:07:15.860 you're never going to get a left-of-centre

00:07:18.280 or a left-wing party ever be elected ever again?

00:07:20.600 Well, under PR, the Tories would end up being split as well,

00:07:23.040 I think is Matt's point.

00:07:24.200 I think so. I think that's right.

00:07:25.500 The point, and it's interesting that David Starkey has come up,

00:07:28.840 not entirely by design,

00:07:30.180 but actually the point that he made when we had him on

00:07:32.060 and we were talking about this,

00:07:33.080 he said one of the benefits of the first-pass system

00:07:36.180 is it prevents extremists from getting a voice

00:07:40.440 in the conversation.

00:07:41.500 And he was talking then about the right extremists.

00:07:44.600 But I am someone who's seduced

00:07:49.660 by the idea of proportional representation,

00:07:51.480 but I'm also increasingly aware that it's got trade-offs

00:07:54.360 that may not be what we want.

00:07:56.400 I can see why from your position, though,

00:07:58.400 breaking up the Labour Party would be a good thing.

00:08:01.360 yeah so the only way you're going to bring that about is is if there's a minority labor government

00:08:06.900 yeah so people say to me on the left like people on the left are like why are you still a member

00:08:10.580 of the labor party why are you still why would you vote for the labor party the reason i would

00:08:13.780 vote for it is to destroy it i would i would vote for it so we have a minority labor government 0.60

00:08:21.040 that passes proportional representation in a confidence and supply deal with the smp or

00:08:26.000 whatever yeah and then uh and then we all go our separate ways really so so what you're you're

00:08:31.840 saying is that you don't see any future in the labor party uh no i don't i don't i don't look

00:08:38.300 i think it's a completely unstable coalition between democratic socialists like me uh you

00:08:45.900 know the social democrats even and blairites now who control the party who are free market

00:08:52.320 neoliberals who

00:08:54.760 don't want to change the fundamentals of the economy

00:08:57.100 which

00:08:57.920 you know the fact that they can

00:09:01.240 be in the same political party

00:09:02.640 it would only ever happen under first past the post

00:09:05.220 both parties are I think

00:09:07.160 unstable coalitions

00:09:09.420 of many different factions

00:09:10.720 and you're right I think they'd split as well the Tories

00:09:13.300 yeah do you think there's also I mean one of

00:09:15.360 the things we explored because look the reason we started

00:09:17.400 trigonometry is we were two remain

00:09:19.360 voting comedians quite

00:09:20.940 you know sort of center left of center and then brexit happened and we were trying to understand

00:09:26.360 what had happened and why because the one thing that i found very unpleasant about that particular

00:09:32.840 conversation was i'm a dark-skinned russian first generation immigrant and the idea that half the

00:09:37.960 country voted for brexit because they hated dark-skinned people or they were racist was

00:09:41.680 that to me is just a lie and it's a smear and it's slanderous and to say that is just

00:09:45.840 to me that was just awful the way that that conversation was being had

00:09:50.940 But one of the things we learned in exploring and talking to a lot of people who were former Labour or members of Labour or Blue Labour or whatever who'd voted Leave was the fact that the Labour Party no longer represents the very people it was founded to represent, right?

00:10:05.380 At least that's how they feel. You might disagree. I don't know if you do. But do you think there's also a class issue within the Labour Party?

00:10:12.460 There are some people who are, you know, university educated and very progressive in their thinking and they've read a lot of the right books and whatever.

00:10:19.540 and there's also quite a lot of people who just you know they thought the Labour Party was about

00:10:23.880 representing them in employment relations and regulating certain things that the free market

00:10:28.560 doesn't regulate and making sure the state looks after people and they are not on board with

00:10:32.980 identity politics they're not on board with some of the more sort of new ways of thinking let's say

00:10:38.300 do you think that's also a big split I think the the the culture split is interesting if that if

00:10:45.080 I mean, I don't know enough about whether that does cut across economic lines.

00:10:51.640 So I feel like our way of conceptualizing class now is quite outdated.

00:10:59.080 I think, you know, we do it along the lines of education

00:11:03.000 and we do it along the lines of like what job people have

00:11:07.500 and all that kind of stuff.

00:11:08.680 When actually, I think if you look at class on the basis of someone's income,

00:11:13.720 there are a lot of consistencies across like i'd say like there's there are a lot of consistencies

00:11:21.840 across like who they vote for so people who are on lower incomes overwhelmingly vote labor still

00:11:28.000 even in 2019 um but if you had if you have like a self-reporting way of conceptualizing class like

00:11:36.740 asking for example retired homeowners who have a few buy-to-lets in the red wall whether they

00:11:42.760 consider themselves working class they'll probably say yes because they had a working class job

00:11:46.940 when they were working because they had a job that didn't require a degree when they were working

00:11:51.500 so there's lots of ways that i think we conceptualize class that's quite unhelpful

00:11:56.100 in the kind of broader sense but how quote unquote the working class people who identify still as

00:12:03.920 working class even though their material circumstances perhaps tell a different story

00:12:07.440 might perceive some of these culture the culture issues um i think is very different to

00:12:14.120 how how i would perhaps define the working class the low-income workers who were often very often

00:12:21.140 also graduates you know like people who went to university and work in grad jobs in london in

00:12:26.480 their early 20s and are paying like 50 of their income after tax in rent you know these are also

00:12:31.340 the working class i from my perspective so i i find yeah basically the way that we conceptualize

00:12:37.080 it's quite it's quite interesting that is difficult for me matt because like we on the

00:12:41.740 comedy circuit you meet people who went to oxford who are very well educated who both whose parents

00:12:47.180 you know are wealthy um and they make 10 grand a year on the comedy circuit now by your definition

00:12:53.920 they'd be working class right well if they're from wealth and they don't need to earn a lot 1.00

00:12:59.340 of money no they do need to they just don't because they're comedians and they're idiots 1.00

00:13:02.560 oh okay 1.00

00:13:03.380 I mean

00:13:09.700 there are

00:13:12.240 lots of different factors I think that can

00:13:15.380 you know

00:13:16.140 contribute to how we

00:13:18.620 conceptualize it but I think the

00:13:20.840 income is like the primary

00:13:22.900 one I think like that is

00:13:25.060 probably the thing that we should be foregrounding

00:13:27.220 whereas I think

00:13:28.940 like what job you do is sort

00:13:31.040 of whether whether you need a degree to do your job or whether you don't it's kind of i don't

00:13:36.020 think that's as relevant as how much money you earn yeah it's an interesting point and the 0.99

00:13:40.220 realignment is happening for sure you're right i got you with that idiot yeah you did yeah 0.99

00:13:46.780 because they are um but the do you know you're not worried matt where we are politically 0.99

00:13:51.540 because i would place myself in a different space to you in the political spectrum but i look at 1.00

00:13:59.540 Labour, they're fucking useless. I look at Tories, they're imploding, they've got a fat buffoon in 1.00

00:14:04.380 charge. You look at competency on either side of the political spectrum, there's a dearth of it. 0.99

00:14:11.840 Do you not worry and think to yourself, where is the left, you know, where are the new left's

00:14:18.580 ideas? Where are the new right's ideas? And if you don't have good ideas on the left and you don't

00:14:23.280 have good ideas on the right, they're not going to be able to challenge each other and we're not

00:14:27.180 going to be able to move forward as a nation yeah i think there is a real problem with a lack of

00:14:34.040 vision and agenda i don't think we've had a government with an agenda for quite a while

00:14:39.700 in this country i mean the only thing that i can really remember in the last 12 years is get brexit

00:14:46.820 done and it's done and like there's no kind of there's no vision for the country where the

00:14:53.360 country needs to go we've got leveling up now which is like a computer game i don't no one

00:14:58.680 knows what it means but we're leveling up it's it's like there's a there is a lack of ideas and

00:15:03.480 i think that we are in an in an era now where there are so many different challenges that need

00:15:08.460 to be confronted and there are different ways of confronting them obviously but you know the

00:15:13.040 housing crisis climate change lots of different things that are happening that need big idea

00:15:18.520 politics and everyone lots of people criticized jeremy obviously for their own reasons and

00:15:25.400 he at least did have a vision and big ideas and when he said after we lost the last election that

00:15:33.540 we won the argument what he meant by that was he was able to define and dictate the terms of debate

00:15:44.080 everything was around you know that agenda and lots of things that are now coming out of leveling

00:15:51.180 up as a concept um but because of you know jeremy corbyn putting that on the agenda so

00:15:57.060 for me there's a role of for the opposition to try to influence the agenda of government

00:16:02.600 absolutely and starmer isn't doing that he's just sort of hoping that they collapse

00:16:06.580 i think that that's quite high risk because no one knows what starmer stands for

00:16:11.940 If all of the problems can be pinned on Johnson,

00:16:14.220 which by the looks of it, the Tory party is going to do,

00:16:17.560 then the new leader is a clean skin and they can just move on

00:16:21.420 and they might well have an agenda.

00:16:25.320 So, yeah, I mean, I think it's disappointing that in this moment,

00:16:28.760 the Labour Party could be making some quite compelling arguments

00:16:31.140 for how to reform the energy sector, you know,

00:16:33.940 lots of different things that they're just not on the playing field.

00:16:37.080 Do you not think that Jeremy Corbyn, by the way,

00:16:39.340 Jeremy Corbyn, I agree with you completely. He was a person who had vision of what he wanted.

00:16:44.620 Now, I personally don't agree with what he wanted on most things, but he had a vision and there's

00:16:48.680 no denying it. But isn't Jeremy Corbyn exactly the example of why our politics is so broken now?

00:16:54.080 Because he had a vision when he was on the back benches. He came into the leadership and the

00:16:59.580 fundamental issue on which he was clearly Eurosceptic. If you're trying to convince me,

00:17:04.240 he voted remain. I mean, come on. Right. But because of the way the party politics works and

00:17:10.560 the way that the media works and the way that our brains work, where someone has said something we

00:17:15.200 don't like, that means that person is over. We don't care what else they believe. But as long

00:17:19.440 as they, you know, in his case, if he just came out and said, well, look, I've always been a

00:17:23.660 Eurosceptic. I'm a man of principle. I know that my party doesn't share my vision, but this is what

00:17:28.420 I believe. But even someone who I genuinely think Jeremy Corbyn is a principled man. I really,

00:17:33.340 really do. But he couldn't do that. He could not have the courage of his convictions once he

00:17:39.960 actually had some measure of power influence within the party. And I think that's why you

00:17:45.820 see it on all sides. The moment you commit to a vision, people start attacking you. And in our

00:17:50.800 world, we just, we can't handle it. We don't want it. It's too toxic, whatever. And I think that's

00:17:54.920 why politics is broken yeah i think when i was there um 2016 2017 uh uh we did feel i think the

00:18:04.320 whole project felt much more insurgent and we took more risks and because we felt like we had nothing

00:18:09.940 to lose and then but it changed yeah after 2017 you think okay we might get into government and

00:18:17.460 i think you start taking less risks and i think that that was one of the things that really changed

00:18:22.760 after 2017 was you know in that election we did accept the result the referendum and you know it

00:18:30.420 was very much on domestic issues and then after that it was like okay we need to sort of keep

00:18:34.280 this coalition that we've managed to build together we don't upset anyone and then when

00:18:40.160 you get into that frame of mind that's kind of it that's it you're trying to placate people

00:18:44.340 and then it's just like then he was just like any politician yeah it became like he was exactly

00:18:50.560 that's how people saw him

00:18:51.560 like

00:18:51.780 so

00:18:52.400 yeah

00:18:53.940 so that was

00:18:54.500 and that wasn't his game

00:18:55.560 he's not good at that

00:18:57.420 no

00:18:57.660 he's not good at being

00:18:58.700 and you're right

00:18:59.840 it's the same

00:19:00.380 like if we did this

00:19:01.320 and we didn't want to upset anyone

00:19:02.660 we couldn't do it

00:19:04.100 it wouldn't be honest conversations

00:19:05.380 because

00:19:05.680 an honest discussion always

00:19:07.260 will offend and upset some people

00:19:09.240 yeah

00:19:09.960 and that's why we like doing this

00:19:11.260 Matt

00:19:12.680 do you think

00:19:13.320 do you look back at your time

00:19:14.680 with Corbyn

00:19:15.620 and think

00:19:16.240 you missed the real

00:19:18.580 not you personally

00:19:19.600 but the Labour Party missed a real opportunity.

00:19:23.360 If only they'd been a little bit braver,

00:19:25.140 if only they had a little bit more integrity,

00:19:26.920 if only they'd come out and said,

00:19:28.340 look, Brexit means Brexit.

00:19:35.360 Yeah, I mean, Theresa May stood in 2017.

00:19:39.480 She didn't have a domestic agenda. 1.00

00:19:40.600 She said, give me a strong hand in negotiations,

00:19:42.680 I'll deliver Brexit. 1.00

00:19:43.740 And she couldn't do it.

00:19:44.900 So at that moment, Corbyn should have said,

00:19:47.060 I'm the only leader.

00:19:48.740 prime minister who could deliver brexit so that that should have been the message

00:19:53.860 and then failing that when she brought the deal back which was criticized by everyone and probably

00:20:02.040 needed labor's um well it needed labor support to pass it should have been uh they should have

00:20:11.040 abstained on it and just let it pass you know as and then brexit becomes the tory's problem

00:20:17.500 but then what happened was the deal was blocked it looked like Labour was blocking it because it

00:20:22.780 was voting against it therefore it looked like Labour was blocking Brexit and then we had

00:20:27.100 two years of or whatever whatever it was a year of wrangling over a people's vote and the salience

00:20:33.180 of Brexit was suddenly at the top of the agenda and that's not an election that we want to fight

00:20:39.820 or we want to or we're going to win and that's what happened so yeah that there were successive

00:20:44.380 areas i think that that happened um obviously it's easy in hindsight but there were some of us at the

00:20:50.360 time that were saying you know we we should be saying we're the only party that can deliver

00:20:54.260 brexit because it's true we would have been able to do it and matt whenever i see the labor party

00:21:01.260 and and i see their policies i just don't think they understand ordinary working class people

00:21:07.120 i look at brexit they didn't get it really they didn't get really why people voted for it while

00:21:12.300 people were frustrated by it. I look at their attitude to lockdowns and I just think you're

00:21:17.120 crippling ordinary working people. They didn't seem to get it. They wanted more lockdowns. 1.00

00:21:23.340 Don't you think the fundamental problem is that realistically you look at this party and they just

00:21:27.500 don't get what working people, who they are and what they represent? I think for the first time

00:21:33.160 in quite a long time i think well i i would argue since 1997 in in 2017 we had

00:21:40.400 an offer to the majority the vast majority of working people people you know that would have

00:21:49.000 credibly uh improve their material circumstances and there was a you know a blueprint of how that

00:21:56.740 was going to happen and it was as i say people bought into it and it was popular agenda even

00:22:02.180 they didn't win so that's where the labor party should be in my from my perspective it's like

00:22:07.440 what policies are going to improve the material circumstances of people who are living and the

00:22:13.820 most people are living paycheck to paycheck yeah and uh that's where it should be yeah and i mean

00:22:19.900 i i agree i think on the civil liberties stuff around the pandemic uh things like vaccine

00:22:27.200 passports and supporting the government in the restrictions that came in particularly towards

00:22:32.640 the end I think was a mistake it's not where the Labour Party should have been yeah Matt I feel bad

00:22:37.780 because you were here to talk about gambling and we did you can just see we're really interested

00:22:42.500 in what you have to say on this so this it wasn't like we sat down and we went you know what we'll

00:22:46.860 do 20 minutes on gambling and we're hitting with the Corbyn stuff like that wasn't the plan it just

00:22:51.360 it's really great to have the conversation and as I said you know earlier on I think it's

00:22:56.320 the people that we always are interested in

00:22:59.520 are people who are not tribal

00:23:01.620 and who are not attached to a particular tribe.

00:23:04.300 Now, you have your own politics and your own vision,

00:23:06.160 but you're interested in the conversation.

00:23:07.680 So we really appreciate you coming on.

00:23:09.920 Thank you so much for that.

00:23:11.380 We're going to ask you our final question

00:23:13.220 and then we'll do a couple of special questions

00:23:14.900 for our locals-only supporters.

00:23:16.620 Great.

00:23:16.900 But thanks very much for coming on.

00:23:18.640 And the last question is always,

00:23:19.960 what's the one thing we're not talking about,

00:23:21.620 but we really should be?

00:23:23.020 We're not talking about fan ownership of football clubs.

00:23:26.320 And getting the billionaires out of, well, not out of the Premier League necessarily,

00:23:31.520 but, you know, at least reducing their power.

00:23:34.260 Football clubs are community assets.

00:23:36.340 And I feel like that has been undermined by the marketization of football.

00:23:42.220 And, yeah, fans need to have more of a voice.

00:23:45.440 Finally, a socialist policy I agree with.

00:23:47.300 Thank you, Matt.

00:23:47.840 Seize the means of production.

00:23:49.980 You have nothing to lose but your chains and your football club.

00:23:52.780 Matt, thank you so much.

00:23:54.180 Guys, thank you so much for watching and listening.

00:23:56.320 where we're going to ask Matt a couple of very special questions from you

00:23:59.120 for our locals only.

00:24:00.920 But in the meantime, we will see you very soon

00:24:02.920 with another brilliant episode like this one or Raw Show.

00:24:06.160 All of them go out at 7pm UK time.

00:24:08.020 And for those of you who like your trigonometry on the go,

00:24:10.220 it's also available as a podcast.

00:24:12.140 Take care and see you soon, guys.

00:24:16.080 Tony Blair has a lot to answer for.

00:24:26.320 Broadway's smash hit, The Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise, is coming to Toronto.

00:24:33.320 The true story of a kid from Brooklyn destined for something more, featuring all the songs you love,

00:24:38.840 including America, Forever in Blue Jeans, and Sweet Caroline.

00:24:42.860 Like Jersey Boys and Beautiful, the next musical mega hit is here, The Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise.

00:24:49.660 Now through June 7th, 2026 at the Princess of Wales Theatre.

00:24:53.880 Get tickets at mirvish.com.

00:24:56.320 You

TRIGGERnometry - March 07, 2022

What's It Like to Work for Jeremy Corbyn？

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