TRIGGERnometry - What's Next for TRIGGERnometry？

00:00:00.000 As we were breaking up for the Christmas period, I was sort of looking at the accounts going, this is actually really, really difficult.

00:00:08.980 And then we came back and we were like, we're really going to have to pull a rabbit out of a hat here.

00:00:14.280 I mean, talking about the rabbit out of the hat, the Oxford speech was the ultimate rabbit out of the hat.

00:00:19.600 Well, for a start, it made a shit ton of money.

00:00:22.360 Yeah.

00:00:22.600 That was the biggest thing, is like we could actually afford to pay everyone a salary. 0.95

00:00:26.140 Because if you look at our interviews, see what I have to fucking deal with.

00:00:32.600 We want to hear people's views from different sides of the political spectrum.

00:00:36.720 And there's not many places that you're going to get that variety of conversation.

00:00:42.020 If you cannot sit down and have a conversation, be friends, have a relationship with someone that you disagree with, then you're a child.

00:00:52.000 The values will always remain the same.

00:00:54.080 We are always dedicated to having the conversations with the most interesting people about the topics that people are scared to confront.

00:01:03.440 Proud of everything that we've achieved.

00:01:05.620 Oh, mate, the next, the rest of this year is going to be absolute dynamite.

00:01:11.320 We've got, I mean, the stuff we've got coming up, exciting as hell.

00:01:15.200 Hello and welcome to a very special episode of Trigonometry.

00:01:29.340 I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:30.560 I'm Constantine Kishin.

00:01:31.820 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:36.500 Today, we're celebrating the fact that we've just hit 600,000 subscribers on YouTube.

00:01:42.000 And of course, it's been an incredible first half of the year, Francis, hasn't it?

00:01:45.420 It has been an incredible first half of the year.

00:01:47.380 It has been, I think, what is euphemistically called a journey.

00:01:50.840 It has been a journey, mate.

00:01:52.200 Well, I mean, one of the things people won't know from behind the scenes, but actually at the end of last year, the end of 2022, we were having kind of a rough time of it.

00:02:01.280 Oh, yeah.

00:02:01.580 We were having a really rough time of it.

00:02:03.080 I mean, we were rapidly running out of money.

00:02:06.200 We were.

00:02:06.780 Well, what happened was we had to leave our previous studio, as is our nature.

00:02:13.340 Yeah.

00:02:14.160 And we decided to use that as an opportunity to build a proper studio from the ground up, which is where we're sitting now.

00:02:21.920 And we ramped up our studio cost by about 400%.

00:02:25.480 Yeah.

00:02:26.240 And then immediately got COVID and couldn't work for a month, basically, towards the end of last year.

00:02:31.360 So as we were breaking up for the Christmas period, I was sort of looking at the accounts going, this is actually really, really difficult.

00:02:40.140 And we had to cut the two of ours' salaries, which are not huge anyway, Anton as well.

00:02:46.500 And then we came back and we were like, we're really going to have to pull a rabbit out of a hat here.

00:02:54.400 And when we sat down at the beginning of the year, Laura, who's our chief operating officer now, basically runs everything.

00:03:02.640 We had a planning meeting.

00:03:04.680 We were like, well, wouldn't it be amazing if we could get to 500,000 subscribers this year?

00:03:10.600 That was our stretch goal.

00:03:11.600 That was our stretch goal because we were like, we're probably not going to make it.

00:03:14.720 No.

00:03:14.860 But that would be great because that would represent nearly doubling the size of the channel in a year, which is a huge achievement.

00:03:22.460 Absolutely it is.

00:03:23.520 And that is what we were talking about.

00:03:25.360 And that was a big pie in the sky, the stretch goal.

00:03:29.080 And I think it's fair to say we've exceeded the stretch goal.

00:03:32.600 Well, we're on 600,000 now.

00:03:34.420 So it's towards the end of August now.

00:03:37.340 And we've still got some incredible stuff coming later this year, which we will tease a little bit.

00:03:43.860 We never like to say exactly what's happening until it's actually.

00:03:46.720 Because every time we do, it never happens for a multitude of different reasons.

00:03:50.420 Yeah, someone gets ill, something gets cancelled, et cetera.

00:03:52.600 Yeah, exactly.

00:03:53.560 But, I mean, talking about the rabbit out of the hat, the Oxford speech was the ultimate rabbit out of the hat.

00:03:59.520 Well, for a start, it made a shit ton of money.

00:04:02.220 Yeah.

00:04:02.400 That was the biggest thing is, like, we could actually afford to pay everyone a salary.

00:04:06.200 Yeah.

00:04:06.620 Which was a relief.

00:04:07.820 Yeah, it was.

00:04:08.580 It was.

00:04:09.020 Because it gets a bit awkward and you're going to people and you're going, you know that work you've done, which has been outstanding.

00:04:13.780 Yeah.

00:04:14.180 Well, not in every case.

00:04:15.120 Not in every case.

00:04:15.880 But in the majority of cases.

00:04:18.900 Yeah.

00:04:19.360 How about exposure?

00:04:21.900 Would you like to get paid for exposure?

00:04:23.440 That old classic?

00:04:24.160 We're not in the comedy industry now, right?

00:04:25.780 Yeah, exactly.

00:04:26.260 But, yeah, so, I mean, what was it like for you to see that speech?

00:04:31.660 Well, first of all, like I say, it was a big relief.

00:04:34.080 Yeah.

00:04:34.260 Because I think when we put that clip out on our channel, it generated about 16,000 pounds.

00:04:39.700 Yeah.

00:04:39.980 Which meant that actually, as I say, first of all, our financial problems were sort of taken care of.

00:04:45.700 And then you just saw this video get 5.5 million views on the channel, bringing a huge number of subscribers.

00:04:53.900 So, for me, first of all, it's just one of the two people leading this.

00:04:58.360 It was just a big weight off our shoulders more than anything.

00:05:02.360 And really, beyond, you know, I went on Tucker again.

00:05:07.240 I did Question Time again.

00:05:08.720 I had some, in the immediate aftermath, some opportunities that I'd had before, but, again, big ones.

00:05:16.540 You went on JBP's pod?

00:05:17.760 I did, yeah, yeah, which I think we'd been planning to do it at some point anyway.

00:05:22.480 But, again, that was obviously great.

00:05:25.720 But, really, not much had changed in my day-to-day life because I don't live in a big city.

00:05:33.500 Most of it, I'm a very boring guy.

00:05:35.480 When I'm not in here working, I'm at home with my family going for walks in the local park or whatever.

00:05:41.080 And so, the only thing I noticed is I said to my wife, like, you know, when I used to go out in the local, in the small town that we live and maybe get recognized once a week.

00:05:51.940 Yeah.

00:05:52.740 Now, I said to her, I'm sort of starting to get recognized every day.

00:05:57.800 But, you know, it's one person recognizes you when you go for a walk.

00:06:00.960 It's not a big deal.

00:06:01.620 Someone says, oh, I love your show or whatever.

00:06:03.100 And, really, it wasn't until we went back to the U.S. that I started to gather the significance of what had happened.

00:06:15.000 Because we were going to the U.S. and this was our, would it be our second proper trip together, filming and doing stuff?

00:06:23.880 Or would it be the third one?

00:06:24.940 Hang on a second.

00:06:25.760 That's a really good question.

00:06:27.140 I think it was the second trip.

00:06:28.440 The second trip.

00:06:28.960 Because the first trip we did, we did East Coast and Austin and West Coast.

00:06:32.780 That was one massive trip.

00:06:34.720 And then we went back this time when we just did the East Coast, didn't we?

00:06:38.040 We went to New York, Miami, D.C.

00:06:41.980 And you went to Austin.

00:06:44.080 Yeah.

00:06:44.260 And I went to L.A. to do Bill Maher and a bunch of other stuff.

00:06:48.160 But, anyway, when we set off, I drove into Heathrow, stayed in a hotel the night before.

00:06:54.420 He's changed.

00:06:55.360 Yeah.

00:06:56.180 Yeah, I can afford a hotel now.

00:06:57.920 And between arriving at the hotel late at night and getting to, was it D.C. or New York Airport, wherever it was, I'd been recognized 10 times in the space of about, what, 24 hours?

00:07:16.860 Yeah.

00:07:17.060 And he was literally like, I went down to the pub in the hotel for a drink with my son, and a guy came over, started to, he had no idea, he didn't know my name, didn't know anything about trigonometry, anything.

00:07:30.200 Next day, I take a cab to the airport.

00:07:32.480 Cab driver's like, oh, do I recognize your voice?

00:07:35.420 And, again, he didn't know about trigonometry.

00:07:37.180 This is the thing, like, most people used to know me just for trigonometry.

00:07:40.780 And now there was a huge number of people who'd never really known who I was, who'd just seen the speech.

00:07:47.480 The guy in the airport, the guy in security.

00:07:50.980 And it started to get to the point where it's kind of, like, almost a little bit worrying because when we were in, there was a long queue when we arrived in the airport in America.

00:07:59.700 Yeah.

00:08:00.040 And me, you, Anton, and Elliot were standing around just talking about our business.

00:08:05.280 Yeah, I remember this.

00:08:05.300 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:08:05.780 And then you guys went ahead for immigration, and I stayed back.

00:08:10.240 And the moment you guys left, the guy behind us stood there for an hour listening to all our business talk.

00:08:14.820 Yeah.

00:08:15.200 Went, love your show, by the way.

00:08:16.640 And I was like, why don't you fucking tell me an hour ago so we didn't discuss private information in front of you?

00:08:20.920 I mean, that's what he wanted. 0.97

00:08:22.480 That is what he wanted.

00:08:23.480 Yeah.

00:08:23.660 And then when we got to America, I suddenly realized that, like, all the people that we'd been in touch with previously because they were guests of the show or we would have been guests on their show or whatever, they treated me very differently now.

00:08:39.120 And it was kind of eye-opening, really.

00:08:41.240 So that trip to America really changed everything for me because, you know, we arrived there, and basically I was like, all my heroes are there saying, you know, welcome, brother.

00:08:53.700 Yeah.

00:08:54.240 Come and join us.

00:08:55.340 Yeah.

00:08:55.580 It was almost an initiation into a world that I'd always aspired to be part of.

00:09:00.680 And, you know, the thing that really summed it up for me was when I went on Bill Maher's show, Eric Weinstein, who's a guy that, you know, we'd been dreaming of having on the show for ages, so much respect for him, a fascinating guy.

00:09:13.240 He asked to come and be my guest with his wife and a friend of hers in the green room of Bill Maher, whereas to me, I would have been honored to, like, have a coffee with Eric up until that point.

00:09:24.240 We used to speak every now and again on the phone, but it was just, like, amazing.

00:09:28.220 So it changed a lot, I think, for the show because we pretty much, I don't know, we would have got 150,000, 200,000 subscribers from the speech itself and then the follow-up hits that I did on various podcasts and TV and stuff like that.

00:09:45.700 But also for me, it really changed how I think I see what I'm doing and how other people see what I'm doing.

00:09:52.720 My book, I think, doubled sales in a week or something.

00:09:55.700 That's amazing.

00:09:56.440 I didn't realize that.

00:09:57.380 Yeah, it did really well, particularly on the audio book because people wanted to hear, literally hear, from the person that they'd heard.

00:10:03.820 So, yeah, it was really, it was transformative.

00:10:06.700 And I feel, you know, it took a lot of pressure off me, actually.

00:10:11.180 Really?

00:10:11.820 So it took some, you know, the truth is that I know that in the British context this might sound arrogant, but it is true. 0.99

00:10:18.460 Ever since I was a little kid, I always felt the, I always had this weight on my shoulders.

00:10:27.100 I felt that I was supposed to do something special.

00:10:31.320 And all my life, I never, I was always good at the things I did when I ran my translation business.

00:10:39.140 When I did comedy, I was good at comedy, but I never felt that I'd really slotted in.

00:10:43.480 You found your thing.

00:10:44.200 I never felt that I'd found my thing.

00:10:47.900 And with trigonometry, I always did feel like I'd found my thing.

00:10:51.140 But it was kind of like having to prove it to the outside world.

00:10:54.880 And I think what changed for me with the Oxford speech, it was like, I've proved it now.

00:11:00.520 And the way that I feel now is like, I have so much left to do, but I have nothing left to prove.

00:11:07.720 That's an amazing place to be.

00:11:09.220 And it's such a relief.

00:11:10.640 Yeah.

00:11:10.980 You know, it's a real relief.

00:11:12.340 And it shows up in the way that I am with other people, in the way that I am with my family,

00:11:17.200 in what kind of friend or husband or everything I am.

00:11:20.740 It's really allowed me to just take that, go, go, go, you know, thing off me.

00:11:27.800 And I'm free to be very driven and passionate as I always have been,

00:11:32.100 but without having this extraordinary feeling of like, I'm supposed to be something and I'm not.

00:11:36.760 Yeah.

00:11:37.880 Yeah.

00:11:38.300 And I think we've all noticed that.

00:11:40.120 And it's, I think one of the things that no one really talks about when you have success

00:11:45.220 is a relief element of it.

00:11:47.460 It's like when we, Nigel Ong, the very famous, you know, he's got that character online,

00:11:52.340 which is absolutely massive.

00:11:53.860 I think he's got over.

00:11:54.720 Hiya.

00:11:55.360 Hiya.

00:11:56.000 I think he's probably got, when we interviewed him, he had 8 million subscribers.

00:11:59.480 He's probably got something like 32 now.

00:12:01.380 Thanks to us.

00:12:02.020 Yeah, exactly.

00:12:03.180 You're welcome, mate.

00:12:04.040 Exactly, Nigel.

00:12:04.880 But, you know, when I was talking to him about the character, I was like, were you excited?

00:12:09.880 He was just like, no, I was just, I think he even said it in the interview.

00:12:13.440 I was just like, oh, thank the Lord.

00:12:15.080 Yeah.

00:12:15.520 You know, it's that feeling of relief that the work has been worth it.

00:12:18.800 Yeah.

00:12:19.080 Because there's incredible people who work all their lives and create stuff and it's great,

00:12:24.140 but for whatever reason, it doesn't pop.

00:12:26.700 So that feeling of relief, I imagine, is just a sense of calm and peace that it brings.

00:12:33.340 It is.

00:12:34.240 And also, when we went to the US, there was, we met all these incredible people.

00:12:38.700 And the mindset over there, you know, we talk about all the time, it's got downsides, of course.

00:12:45.780 Yeah, of course it does.

00:12:47.540 But I really, you know, I used to think the sky's the limit.

00:12:52.400 Now, I just think there is no limit.

00:12:54.640 You know, I'm just like, what can we do?

00:12:58.340 Yeah.

00:12:58.460 How can we be more of ourselves?

00:13:01.720 How can we create amazing content?

00:13:03.760 How can we make a positive impact on the world?

00:13:06.380 I'm not embarrassed or shy anymore about having big dreams and big aspirations for what we're building here.

00:13:14.520 And I just feel like we put ourselves on the map this year in a way that I think in the past,

00:13:20.820 we just felt like we were trying to.

00:13:23.060 Yeah.

00:13:23.440 Now, I just feel, I feel like there's no limit.

00:13:26.760 And the thing is, it's not, I know it's not a delusional thing because I meet all these people

00:13:31.540 who are hugely successful, who I respect, who we look up to, who tell us that.

00:13:36.740 They look at what we've built here and they go, there is no limit.

00:13:39.480 And so, to me, this is all, you know, all upside, all opportunity from here on in.

00:13:46.480 Doesn't mean we won't have difficulties.

00:13:47.900 Doesn't mean we won't nearly run out of money again or whatever.

00:13:50.660 But I just feel like we've got a really amazing team in place now who can allow us to just be

00:13:56.440 the on-camera personalities that we are and create things and write amazing comedy and books.

00:14:03.000 And, you know, we should talk about all of that.

00:14:04.840 Yeah, we should definitely talk about that because going forward,

00:14:09.180 the difficulty when you start something from nothing is that you literally have to do everything.

00:14:15.220 And the challenge with that is that the things that you were doing aren't really things that you know about

00:14:21.760 and aren't really your strengths.

00:14:23.880 So you're essentially doing things that you're not good at, but you are having to model your way through.

00:14:29.080 Well, an interesting example of this would be when we went on Joe Rogan.

00:14:32.680 Yeah.

00:14:32.920 And then we went on Rogan.

00:14:35.480 He got a massive blunt out, which we smoked.

00:14:38.940 And then we got driven back to our Airbnb completely off our faces, having just done Rogan.

00:14:46.280 And me and you were helping our team set up, like actually putting the light stands together

00:14:53.900 while we were completely off our nut and doing all of that.

00:14:57.360 And then interviewing one of our biggest ever guests.

00:14:59.720 And interviewing Theo Vaughn, who roasted us for an hour and a half.

00:15:03.820 And that really, you know, that's been the journey.

00:15:07.380 I mean, it's interesting.

00:15:08.400 We had a woman come into the studio yesterday who was fitting some fire extinguishers here.

00:15:12.900 And she somehow had known our story.

00:15:15.600 And she was like, oh, so you started in a shed, didn't you?

00:15:18.240 And I was like, no, we didn't.

00:15:19.680 It wasn't even our shed, you know.

00:15:22.460 And that's been how we've done it.

00:15:25.320 But, you know, something else I think would be interesting to talk about is,

00:15:28.440 do you know, it's weird how I feel like all the success that you and I have had has always been

00:15:37.100 because we always had the mentality that the only thing that could prevent us from being successful

00:15:43.480 is if you and I were to fall out and not stick together.

00:15:47.080 And that's not to say you and I have never had arguments or fallings out or whatever.

00:15:51.880 But one of the interesting things to me was when my Oxford speech happened,

00:15:55.820 so many people messaged me and they were asking me if you were all right.

00:16:00.940 And I just thought that is such an interesting way of looking at it because, look,

00:16:05.500 I understand people sometimes are resentful or whatever,

00:16:07.880 but I just feel like everything we've built, we've always done it together.

00:16:11.080 So when I wrote my book, you looked through and you helped me punch it up.

00:16:14.280 When you write your monologues, I looked through and I helped you adjust it and whatever.

00:16:18.220 We've always done things together.

00:16:19.620 Yeah.

00:16:20.080 And so the success we've had has been together.

00:16:21.980 But maybe I'm wrong.

00:16:23.180 Maybe, you know, what was it like for you when that happened?

00:16:25.660 Because a lot of people were asking me about this.

00:16:28.060 So for me, when it happened, there was a kind of surreal element to it,

00:16:33.300 which was just seeing the way that it went up.

00:16:36.180 And I just had never seen that before.

00:16:37.960 But, you know, it was that time for me personally was a very worrying time in terms of the finances.

00:16:47.420 I can't handle my success.

00:16:49.180 In terms of the finances.

00:16:51.100 Look, I've been skinned.

00:16:52.300 I know what it's like to be skinned.

00:16:53.860 And whenever you're skinned, you carry that around with you a little bit

00:16:57.680 because you know what it's like to, you know, have to bunk a train because you've literally got no money.

00:17:03.160 You know what that's like.

00:17:04.560 Like, so there was that fear.

00:17:06.460 And then when it happened for you, I was so relieved.

00:17:09.420 And I was just like, oh, he's absolutely smashed it.

00:17:12.800 He's pulled it out of the bag.

00:17:13.880 And I was delighted for you.

00:17:15.200 And I remember people going to me and going, oh, are you jealous?

00:17:18.920 And no, because this is what we built together.

00:17:24.120 This is what, this, we're a team.

00:17:27.180 And I've always compared what we do to a band.

00:17:29.540 Yeah.

00:17:30.240 We're a band, you know.

00:17:31.480 And so the fact that you went and you did this amazing thing was incredible for all of us.

00:17:37.100 It was something I was genuinely proud of.

00:17:39.080 And also as well, it is completely what you should be doing.

00:17:43.020 It's not what I should be doing.

00:17:44.920 No, no, no, no.

00:17:45.460 You know, if I went on there and I started banging on about people about what you were talking about,

00:17:51.080 people would be like, all right, it's a bit, because it's not what I should be doing.

00:17:56.120 Totally.

00:17:56.340 I think, I think jealousy, like I understand the emotion of jealousy, of course I do,

00:18:01.620 and the pangs that people feel and whatever else.

00:18:04.060 But on a deeper level, I genuinely believe that everybody is on their path.

00:18:10.580 And what somebody is doing, it's not your path.

00:18:16.120 So it's illogical.

00:18:16.900 The only thing you can take from it is inspiration, I think.

00:18:19.780 Which is, and this is why I think the fact, what people sometimes don't think about is,

00:18:24.260 it's like that famous Yogi Berra saying, it took me 10 years to be an overnight success.

00:18:28.380 Yeah.

00:18:29.660 If we don't have trigonometry.

00:18:32.360 Yeah.

00:18:32.820 If people don't already know who I am and I don't already have a significant following on social media,

00:18:38.020 I could still do that speech if I'd been invited.

00:18:40.200 Let's say, although I probably wouldn't have been invited to speak at Doxford Union.

00:18:43.120 And I'd do that speech, and it really wouldn't have the impact either on us or the world that it did

00:18:52.880 because we'd put in the work to create the foundation to launch something like that, you know.

00:18:59.480 And that's it.

00:19:00.720 Yeah.

00:19:00.940 And that's it.

00:19:01.480 It's, you know, the fact that it got us to this point.

00:19:05.060 And look, when people talk about success and they go, oh, you know, it was because of this reason or that reason,

00:19:10.900 the reality is with what we've achieved, it's everything.

00:19:16.000 It's everything and it's everyone.

00:19:17.800 And certain people played more of a part in this factor and less people played more of a part in that factor.

00:19:22.440 But it's a result of people working together.

00:19:27.040 The danger comes with any type of creative endeavor like we have is when people try to pick things apart

00:19:33.500 and say it was me who did this, it was me who did this, because that encourages the perception of we're individuals doing this.

00:19:42.140 And once you do that, you're no longer a team.

00:19:44.260 And once you're no longer a team, then you're not going to function.

00:19:47.600 I mean, it's a cliche, but look at any type of sport.

00:19:51.600 If you have a collection of individuals, it doesn't matter how talented they are, they're never going to win.

00:19:55.320 But the best groups, the best bands, the best teams are greater than the sum of their parts.

00:20:02.460 And you and I are incredibly different, which is why I think it works.

00:20:07.040 Yeah, it's a reason why it works.

00:20:09.640 Because if you look at our interviews, the way we attack our interviews are from two completely different places.

00:20:16.080 And as a result of that, you get a far more well-rounded view of the individual in front of us than you would do if it was just me or you.

00:20:23.720 Yeah. And you know what? Speaking of interviews, I mean, one of the things that I have to say I'm incredibly proud and excited about is some of the recent guests and the guests that we've got coming up.

00:20:36.200 You know, we have got everybody from Nigel Farage through to Mark Steele, who's a lefty firebrand comedian, to Aaron Bastani, the founder of hyper-lefty media organization, Navara Media.

00:20:48.140 And this is what we set out to do when we started.

00:20:50.660 Yes, we have our own points of view. Yes, we are not pretending to not have them.

00:20:57.460 But we want to speak to everybody. We want to hear people's views from different sides of the political spectrum.

00:21:03.060 And there's not many places that you're going to get that variety of conversation, including Navara Media.

00:21:09.520 Yeah, you're not going to get it at Navara Media.

00:21:11.680 I mean, they had Matt Goodwin on, but that was like a massive scary thing for them.

00:21:15.240 And look, good on them for having him.

00:21:17.020 I'm just saying, I think that in terms of pioneering a new media organization that is going to have a range of voices on it that you might agree with or you might disagree with,

00:21:28.100 but they've got to be heard and they've got to be discussed in an open and honest way.

00:21:31.760 We're really, really plotting quite a unique course, I feel.

00:21:36.300 And that's something I think we should be very proud of.

00:21:38.580 Absolutely, we should.

00:21:39.960 And this is the thing as well.

00:21:43.620 There are interviews that we know are going to get more views.

00:21:47.500 You just know that.

00:21:48.440 You know that if you bring, and I love him to pieces, he's one of our finest interviewees.

00:21:53.700 He's a brilliant mind.

00:21:55.180 He's great fun.

00:21:56.460 Douglas Murray.

00:21:57.200 If we bring Douglas Murray on, we know it's going to crush on every platform.

00:22:02.440 It's going to be amazing.

00:22:04.260 Douglas is a star.

00:22:05.940 He's a star.

00:22:07.000 But we also know that if you bring certain other people on, it's not going to do as well.

00:22:13.880 But it's important for the mix that you get all these voices.

00:22:20.140 Absolutely.

00:22:20.560 Because I, and neither do you, want to be one of these platforms where we just talk to people that we agree with.

00:22:27.620 Because number one, and the most important thing about it, it's just boring.

00:22:33.140 If you cannot sit down and have a conversation, be friends, have a relationship with someone that you disagree with, then you're a child.

00:22:43.160 And it really is that simple.

00:22:44.460 And I don't understand why we don't talk about this more.

00:22:46.800 Yeah.

00:22:47.600 Well, I think we've found ourselves in a very, very locked in world where, look, it's very gratifying, isn't it, to just hear your opinion regurgitated back to you.

00:23:00.040 And this echo chamber thing, it exists for a reason.

00:23:03.380 It's really, you know what?

00:23:04.600 One of our former guests, actually, Sean Walsh, he probably won't even remember this bit of material that he used to do.

00:23:10.580 He's a comedian.

00:23:11.300 When I was starting our comedy, I saw him do a show.

00:23:14.580 And he, at the time, this would have been 2014, believe it or not.

00:23:18.860 And he was saying, you know what?

00:23:19.940 I don't know that we need other people.

00:23:21.540 We just need a robot where you just talk at it.

00:23:23.860 And then it says, I agree, you are absolutely right.

00:23:26.120 And so many people just want that.

00:23:30.220 Whereas, look, there are things that I think you and I both feel very strongly about that we've kind of worked out for ourselves as a result of the conversations that we've had on the show and lots of things.

00:23:41.100 But there are so many things that we do not know about the world, about all the different things that we talk about on the show that are worth discussing, that are worth debating, that are worth chiseling away at things and working out exactly what it is that we think.

00:23:57.760 And we live in a world that lacks that.

00:24:00.120 And I think that's, again, another of the reasons for how far we've been able to come and how far we're going to go, because we are going to retain that attitude always.

00:24:09.000 We are not going to get locked into a particular worldview and a side, which makes it difficult sometimes.

00:24:16.180 I think we all know that if we pick the team and started batting for that team, we'd probably be further along in terms of numbers and revenues and whatever.

00:24:25.920 But it's just not – I don't think you can be successful being truly successful, being something that you're not.

00:24:33.280 No, you can't.

00:24:34.160 You can't.

00:24:34.600 And that's why your speech worked, because you were absolutely you.

00:24:39.000 It was you distilled.

00:24:41.240 You weren't trying to be something else.

00:24:43.480 You weren't saying something that you didn't wholeheartedly believe in.

00:24:48.580 And there's a very famous playwright, and I say it all the time, David Mamet, words that come from the heart go to the heart.

00:24:54.160 And that's why that speech connected, and that's why it was brilliant, and that's why it worked.

00:24:58.640 And I don't think people actually really understand that, because so many people are trying to be something in order to achieve something.

00:25:09.340 But you're never going to get there if you were trying to be something, because immediately you're inauthentic.

00:25:15.080 And the moment you're inauthentic, it's when you become – people don't believe in you, because they know it's fake.

00:25:20.640 You know, well, I think the truth is for us both, what we've been doing for the last five and a half years is chipping away at the persona that we thought we were supposed to have.

00:25:33.900 Yeah.

00:25:34.120 And actually getting to the core of what we are and who we are and what we believe.

00:25:38.720 That's really been the journey, is like talking to people to try and understand what the truth is about certain issues, but also being free to speak our minds.

00:25:47.240 Because not that we want to bang on about it too much, but when you are on the comedy circuit and your livelihood depends on people in the industry liking you, in a very punitive industry where if you have the wrong opinion, people will ban you from clubs or not book you or whatever, we had to really watch our steps all the time.

00:26:08.180 And it creates this kind of eggshell walking experience that's just – it's the worst thing.

00:26:14.400 It's not the worst thing, of course, but it's really, really terrible.

00:26:17.520 It's a terrible way to live your life.

00:26:19.080 And it's how most people live.

00:26:21.620 And it's why this show is so successful.

00:26:24.080 It's because we don't live like that.

00:26:26.380 And when we have conversations which are open and honest, which we say what we think and we feel, that's for people, that's revolutionary.

00:26:35.400 Because most people in their lives, both in their professional and their private lives, walk on eggshells.

00:26:41.860 I get people messaging me going, oh, I really admire your bravery.

00:26:45.540 I'm like, what?

00:26:46.980 And they're like, yeah, I couldn't say that.

00:26:48.700 I'm terrified of what my kids will think.

00:26:51.760 And I'm thinking, you're in your 50s and your 60s.

00:26:55.520 I mean, let's be brutally honest.

00:26:56.880 You don't know how much life you've got left.

00:26:59.180 And you're going to walk around worried about what your kids think?

00:27:02.340 Like, to me, that's just really sad.

00:27:07.980 It's really sad that people live like that.

00:27:10.120 It is.

00:27:10.680 It is.

00:27:11.120 And you know what? 0.95

00:27:12.300 I have, like, I mean, I have a very fucked up motivation system personally. 0.67

00:27:17.300 But one of the most inspiring and powerful things that I know and think about often is you say you're in your 50s and 60s, you don't know how much longer you've got left. 0.77

00:27:33.300 It doesn't matter if you're in your 20s.

00:27:34.940 You don't know how much longer you've got left.

00:27:37.320 And the reality is as well, man, is, you know, I think people, I don't know if it was true for you, but for many people, I think we kind of live through life waiting for something to happen, for someone to come and save us somehow.

00:27:52.940 And the truth is no one's coming.

00:27:55.200 No one's coming to save you. 0.99

00:27:56.280 No one gives a shit. 0.98

00:27:57.380 People are busy living their own lives. 0.99

00:27:59.140 They're not sitting there judging you and wondering what your opinion is about this or that most of the time.

00:28:04.040 Another thing is you don't know when you're going to die, but when you do, all that's going to happen is they're going to put you in the ground, throw some dirt on top and go and eat some food.

00:28:14.200 Yeah.

00:28:14.440 That's it.

00:28:15.440 That's it.

00:28:15.880 There's no big glory.

00:28:17.460 Okay, look, you're famous, whatever.

00:28:19.080 There'll be lots of people at the funeral.

00:28:20.400 But that's it.

00:28:21.620 Nothing happens.

00:28:24.200 And so you might as well make the most of what you've got.

00:28:28.420 You might as well say what you think.

00:28:30.260 You might as well be yourself.

00:28:31.520 And, you know, when we, it's, and people will be watching this, go, oh, look at these guys.

00:28:37.140 They've got a big YouTube channel there.

00:28:39.080 We started trigonometry for precisely this reason.

00:28:41.620 We were not prepared to pretend to be people that we were not.

00:28:46.560 Yeah.

00:28:47.280 And also we started this with nothing.

00:28:51.040 Yeah.

00:28:51.240 And one of our best recent interviews that we haven't released yet is with a chap called Tim Urban.

00:28:57.700 And he was talking about risk and he was talking about the scale of risk.

00:29:02.160 So one being no risk, 10 being a high level of risk, the highest level of risk.

00:29:08.420 Most people live their lives between one and three.

00:29:10.360 But if you live your life between four and seven, that's really the sweet spot right there.

00:29:15.960 That's really where you can actually maximise risk and you can take risks.

00:29:23.080 And that's one of the reasons for me where, you know, I was genuinely proud of what you did with the Oxford speech.

00:29:29.760 It's because you went out there and you took a risk.

00:29:32.720 Not a huge, I'm going to put everything, don't worry, darling, everything is going to go on the Grand National, you know, on Punky Horse.

00:29:41.780 I've got a feeling.

00:29:43.000 But it was in that space.

00:29:45.000 And then when it went big, you deserve every single thing you got because you were willing to stand up and say that thing that nobody else had said.

00:29:55.020 And that's why it went big and that's why it worked.

00:29:57.480 And watching that made me realise, look, when it comes to your own comedy, you need to go out and say the thing.

00:30:03.840 You need to go out and say the thing that you want to say.

00:30:06.880 And if people get pissed off and people don't want to work with you, well, thems are breaks.

00:30:12.560 Well, and for us, we're in a fortunate position now where reality is people can dislike you or ban you from their comedy club.

00:30:20.500 You're still going to find a way to get your message out there to go and do the comedy that you believe.

00:30:25.320 And if you look at the comedy greats, the people that you respect, that's what they all did.

00:30:33.420 Absolutely.

00:30:34.180 And if you think about the people that we all respect, the people who we look up to, who we idolise, who we say, you know, whoever it may be, the writers, the thinkers, the poets, the philosophers.

00:30:47.100 When they were around, they pissed a few people off.

00:30:50.300 They weren't exactly Mr. Popular.

00:30:52.140 You know, these were people who were controversial in their own times.

00:30:57.740 So if you want and if you would aspire to be great, then you have to walk that walk.

00:31:04.020 And it ain't easy.

00:31:06.300 And it's not going to be every day you wake up and it's going to be plain sailing and it's going to be relaxed.

00:31:13.240 No, it's going to be tough and people are going to criticise you and people aren't going to invite you to things and people are going to misrepresent you.

00:31:19.560 But that is the path.

00:31:22.600 And you have to accept that.

00:31:24.160 And if you don't want to accept that, then you have to accept living a life where you're going to be inauthentic, which to me is the greatest punishment ever.

00:31:33.500 Yeah.

00:31:34.520 It's true.

00:31:35.280 Because you don't want to do that.

00:31:38.080 You don't want to do that.

00:31:39.100 I mean, we've both lived a life where we weren't everything that we could be.

00:31:45.220 And as a result of that, it's, I can't remember who said it, it's a life of quiet despair in many ways.

00:31:52.940 Because you're not saying what you're thinking or feeling.

00:31:55.500 You're not being true to yourself.

00:31:56.940 Yeah.

00:31:57.120 And that's the greatest luxury that we now have is the ability to say what we think and be ourselves.

00:32:04.560 I would say a Ford State.

00:32:07.580 But yeah, but that's what it is.

00:32:09.460 That's what it is.

00:32:10.280 And you know what's really lovely?

00:32:12.360 It's what I love so much.

00:32:15.760 It's just being able to be ambitious without shame.

00:32:20.540 And not think that ambition is a bad thing and it means you want to screw people over and, you know.

00:32:26.900 You can tell we've been spending time in America, haven't you?

00:32:29.160 Yeah.

00:32:29.540 Can't you?

00:32:30.120 And it's Machiavellian.

00:32:31.620 It's none of these things.

00:32:32.600 It's wonderful.

00:32:33.500 Do you know what, man?

00:32:34.280 That is such a, look, you know how much I love this country.

00:32:38.200 Yeah.

00:32:38.380 But that is such a thing that, that thing always used to bother me here.

00:32:42.660 I remember we, we went to a comedy show, me, you and someone else.

00:32:47.620 And we met a fellow comedian outside who had just opened for Ricky Gervais.

00:32:53.700 Yeah.

00:32:55.000 And I was like, mate, that's amazing.

00:32:57.440 That's so great.

00:32:58.200 You've been slaving away on the comedy circuit for 10 years.

00:33:00.880 Now you're opening one of the biggest acts in the world.

00:33:03.520 And he went, oh yeah, I've been really fortunate. 0.99

00:33:05.300 And I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? 0.99

00:33:08.960 Yeah. 0.99

00:33:09.520 But everyone here sort of feel, or most people here, sort of feel like they have to pretend

00:33:15.240 that their success is not largely, look, luck always plays a part, but largely down to their

00:33:21.000 own hard graft.

00:33:21.840 And this guy is a brilliant comic, been working away in relative obscurity in terms of global

00:33:27.140 comedy for years and years and years. 0.99

00:33:29.280 And he's fucking earned it. 0.99

00:33:30.800 Yeah. 0.98

00:33:31.020 And that, that thing that they have in the U.S. where everyone you talk to in the U.S.

00:33:36.640 is like, look, we might not get to work together, we might not do this, but I want to see you

00:33:40.280 win.

00:33:40.740 Yeah.

00:33:41.260 And they mean it.

00:33:42.120 Yeah.

00:33:42.580 And I'm like that with people now as well.

00:33:44.260 When people come in here.

00:33:45.780 And they look at you like you're weird.

00:33:47.040 They're like, what?

00:33:47.700 Yeah.

00:33:48.060 They look at you like you're weird, but they also love it.

00:33:50.780 Yeah.

00:33:51.020 They like, you know, that attitude of seeing other people win and other people do well.

00:33:56.800 It's the best thing.

00:33:58.000 And it's such a, it's so good to be that way for you.

00:34:02.580 Yeah.

00:34:03.000 Because you feel great.

00:34:04.680 Yeah.

00:34:06.120 Of course.

00:34:07.020 Of course.

00:34:07.440 The worst thing.

00:34:08.980 I mean, there's a saying in AA, which is, people have heard it, you know, resentment is

00:34:14.380 drinking poison and hoping the other person dies.

00:34:17.420 Do they say that when they fix your time?

00:34:18.860 They do indeed.

00:34:21.400 They give you a little bit of philosophy and then they get you on your way.

00:34:24.980 But it's true, man.

00:34:26.860 It's true.

00:34:27.500 That way of thinking where, you know, you don't deserve something.

00:34:31.000 If you get something, you don't deserve it.

00:34:33.040 And you're worried about what other people perceive about you.

00:34:35.580 But yet, if somebody else gets something, then you're resentful.

00:34:38.560 Living like that, it's just, it's not good.

00:34:41.600 I don't have time for it anymore, man.

00:34:43.000 No.

00:34:43.180 And we are surrounded, the beauty of the work that we do is we're surrounded by incredible

00:34:49.840 people.

00:34:50.440 Yeah.

00:34:50.720 You know, we've become very good friends with Winston Marshall over the last couple of years

00:34:55.100 and he's such a great guy.

00:34:56.380 And so many others, so many other people that we...

00:34:59.680 Terrible taste in glasses.

00:35:01.220 In glasses?

00:35:02.100 Yeah.

00:35:03.020 I'm joking, Winnie.

00:35:04.140 What's wrong with his glasses?

00:35:05.460 It's got the, you know, the kind of, it just reminds me of my dad's in the 80s.

00:35:09.040 I'm sorry, Winnie.

00:35:13.220 But no, you're right.

00:35:14.920 You're right.

00:35:15.400 Just to be around people who are ambitious and want to achieve things is such a tonic.

00:35:20.240 Yeah.

00:35:21.320 And, you know, something Eric Weinstein said when he was in here made me think a lot, which

00:35:26.560 is he talked about how, you know, I'd never flown on a private plane until I got cancelled.

00:35:31.000 Yeah.

00:35:31.240 The truth of it is that all of the energy, all of the excitement, all of the really like

00:35:40.720 stuff that makes you feel alive is in our space now.

00:35:44.000 Yeah.

00:35:44.300 You know that?

00:35:45.000 Yeah.

00:35:45.520 All the people that we have on our show, that we get to hang out with, that's where the interesting

00:35:51.100 conversations are happening.

00:35:52.960 Everything else is kind of stale.

00:35:54.360 I mean, if you look at the party political system in this country, especially, we get

00:35:59.720 someone on the right in here and we ask them what they think of the Conservatives.

00:36:04.200 We get someone on the left in and we ask them what they think about Labour.

00:36:07.520 No one's excited about any of it.

00:36:09.960 But this space is exciting.

00:36:12.760 This space is exciting.

00:36:14.220 This space is where things are happening.

00:36:16.600 And this space is where interesting, fascinating conversations are happening.

00:36:21.460 And it's sometimes I have to stop and I have to go, appreciate what you have.

00:36:28.820 Because there are times you have this amazing conversation and then you go and chat to someone

00:36:35.240 or a friend or whatever else and you just relay what this person said.

00:36:38.820 And they're like, that's so interesting.

00:36:40.320 I've never thought of the world like that.

00:36:42.080 Who said that to you? 0.64

00:36:43.020 How did they say that?

00:36:44.820 But because it's our job, we get exposed to it all the time.

00:36:49.380 And it's an amazing thing to be part of.

00:36:52.380 It is.

00:36:53.040 And we're going to go back to the US. 0.90

00:36:55.620 Indeed we are.

00:36:56.320 In a month or so.

00:36:57.800 We've got some very big plans.

00:36:59.640 We can't say yet.

00:37:00.600 Other than we're going back to Austin and LA.

00:37:03.360 Yeah.

00:37:03.620 And maybe Vegas as well.

00:37:04.980 Yeah.

00:37:05.440 For work.

00:37:06.280 Yes.

00:37:07.240 Strictly speaking.

00:37:07.880 Everything on black.

00:37:09.160 Like my dating history.

00:37:12.320 So that will be really exciting.

00:37:13.940 And we're working, you know, people can already see that we are slowly starting to expand the range of what we do here.

00:37:20.800 So in addition to interviews, you and I put out pieces to camera regularly.

00:37:26.040 We've got other creators who will be coming through under our umbrella over time.

00:37:30.360 And, you know, we are going from a YouTube show and podcast to a media organization, a new media organization.

00:37:36.280 And people are going to see some very big changes here over the next six months, which is obviously very exciting.

00:37:44.500 And we'll talk more about that when the time comes.

00:37:46.820 But we've got a brilliant US trip coming up with some massive guests and some big appearances for us as well.

00:37:53.560 So that should be fun.

00:37:54.560 It should be really fun.

00:37:55.540 And what is also important is that when people see the change, they realize as well that our values will always remain the same.

00:38:04.100 We will always be dedicated to having these conversations, the important ones.

00:38:09.440 Unless we sell to a billionaire, in which case Francis's values are going to change rapidly.

00:38:14.360 Yeah, exactly, mate.

00:38:15.300 Head over straight over to Italy and drown myself in carbs.

00:38:18.360 But the values will always remain the same.

00:38:21.580 We are always dedicated to having the conversations with the most interesting people about the topics that people are scared to confront.

00:38:30.060 Because it's only when you talk about a topic honestly, all different facets of that topic, can you possibly hope to have an honest conversation.

00:38:39.340 And that's why the mainstream is dead.

00:38:41.000 And that's why no one cares.

00:38:42.580 And that's why Louis Theroux went on at the, I think, the Edinburgh TV Festival and did an hour's speech all about this.

00:38:49.340 Yeah.

00:38:50.220 Because the smart people know.

00:38:53.220 They know what is happening.

00:38:55.920 Well, Louis watches trigonometry.

00:38:57.240 He does indeed.

00:38:58.560 You know, we look alike.

00:39:00.180 You know, he knows a sexy man when he sees one. 0.80

00:39:02.000 But, and that's the exciting thing.

00:39:05.000 And that's the exciting thing.

00:39:05.980 And whatever happens and whatever we do, we will always retain those core values.

00:39:10.400 Because that's what makes the show great.

00:39:12.580 Yeah.

00:39:14.480 It's been amazing to come to this point.

00:39:16.860 It's been amazing to work with you.

00:39:18.480 It's been amazing to work and spend time and share and grow and develop and just see you develop and to see you improve.

00:39:28.300 It's been a privilege.

00:39:29.260 It's been a privilege because it's been a privilege to see you get better.

00:39:33.500 And it also makes me want to get better.

00:39:35.640 And it makes me want to improve.

00:39:37.360 And you're crushing it, man.

00:39:39.140 I mean, you're doing lots of TV now.

00:39:41.280 We've got your clips coming out on the channel that are doing really well.

00:39:44.340 You've been doing your comedy monologues, which are improving and growing over time as well.

00:39:50.080 So, you know, I'm really excited to see.

00:39:52.900 I've always said to you, and people won't know this, but I've always pushed you along.

00:39:58.760 Sometimes too much maybe or too forcefully at least.

00:40:01.700 But I've always really believed in you.

00:40:04.480 And the one thing I've always said to you is, about your comedy, but about life in general, is like you've got the handbrake on.

00:40:11.980 Yeah.

00:40:12.280 And you've got to take that handbrake off.

00:40:14.000 Yeah.

00:40:14.440 You can't be driving with the handbrake.

00:40:15.840 And when you really take that handbrake off with your comedy, it's going to be incredible.

00:40:20.780 Yeah.

00:40:21.400 And it's that realisation of living in a state of discomfort.

00:40:26.940 If you crave comfort, if you crave security, you are never going to achieve what you want.

00:40:30.940 It's overrated, man.

00:40:32.140 It's overrated, and it's not real.

00:40:35.900 Because even if you feel comfortable, you ain't safe.

00:40:38.960 You may feel safe, but you ain't safe.

00:40:41.460 No.

00:40:42.080 And I think that's a great problem of our age.

00:40:44.360 I think that's why people don't achieve what they want.

00:40:46.940 I think it's why they don't go after their dreams.

00:40:49.140 And I think it's why, ultimately, they don't live the life that they want.

00:40:52.720 You know, it's so interesting that this conversation has been popping up quite a lot in relation to depression.

00:40:57.160 Because I see a lot of people saying something which I believe to be true, which is the way that we treat male and female depression is the same, even though they're caused by very different things and require very different solutions.

00:41:08.420 And I think particularly for men, the answer to a lack of fulfilment, a lack of meaning, and all the other things that are likely to make a person depressed, is actually stepping in to that risk and danger.

00:41:22.340 And building something or doing something that scares you, but inspires you at the same time.

00:41:28.940 And I've always, since I was quite young, actually, I've always, people won't believe this, perhaps.

00:41:34.340 I did public speaking when I was at school.

00:41:36.840 But then when I left school, you know, like you get those 18-year-old footballers, they've come on the pitch, they've got no fear, because they don't have any concept of what's happening.

00:41:45.840 Oh, yeah, they've got no idea how high the stakes are.

00:41:47.920 No. And then you kind of get to your mid-twenties, and suddenly you feel a little bit more protective and whatever.

00:41:55.060 So by the time I was in my mid-twenties, I was actually, it's probably fair to say that I was very nervous about speaking in public.

00:42:01.080 I would have been very nervous about being on camera.

00:42:04.480 And I ran towards that, and I started, I forced myself to do public speaking.

00:42:09.520 I forced myself to train and learn and whatever.

00:42:12.800 And I think for men in particular, this may be true of women, I don't know, because I'm not a woman, although I could be.

00:42:19.420 Yeah.

00:42:19.860 Yeah, exactly.

00:42:24.500 I think for men, mental well-being comes first and foremost from a feeling of, it's not power exactly, but it's the ability to make an impact and the ability to take charge of your life.

00:42:40.180 That really is what will offset any anxieties or, you know, depressive tendencies or whatever you have, because you are inspired and you feel like you are actually, you've got some measure of control over life, which isn't true because you don't have full control of your life.

00:42:59.020 But there are different gradations of control.

00:43:02.600 And I think often the reason people feel lost is that they haven't really taken charge.

00:43:09.180 And you've been doing that in a really impressive way.

00:43:13.060 And by the way, you know, I used to, on Roars, I used to jokingly fat shame you.

00:43:17.440 You've lost tons of weight.

00:43:18.760 You're pursuing your comedy in a different way.

00:43:20.560 You're starting to write a book now.

00:43:21.960 You've got a great book proposal.

00:43:23.220 Like, you've really taken charge of your life in the last few years.

00:43:27.820 And it's really impressive to see, man.

00:43:29.260 Now, thank you very much.

00:43:30.320 And what I want is for people to listen to this and to watch this and realize that I ain't special.

00:43:40.380 You ain't special.

00:43:41.480 None of us are special. 0.99

00:43:43.320 What the fuck is he talking about? 0.98

00:43:44.520 Everyone can do this. 1.00

00:43:47.500 Everyone can do this.

00:43:48.940 All it requires is you make that first step.

00:43:51.940 Courage is a muscle.

00:43:53.460 The more you work the muscle, the more courageous you will be.

00:43:57.860 And you are never going to stop feeling fear.

00:43:59.880 You're never going to stop feeling scared.

00:44:01.840 You're never going to stop all of those feelings.

00:44:04.040 You're just going to get better at acknowledging them, accepting them, working through them, and then moving forward.

00:44:11.760 That's all it is.

00:44:12.720 This idea that you're going to get to a place where, you know, you have somehow overcome all of these emotions and fear, that ain't never going to happen.

00:44:21.820 You're just going to get better at dealing with it.

00:44:23.480 I will say, though, I mean, you can get a lot closer to, like, I, for example, the first time I did TV ever, I remember pacing up and down the hallway.

00:44:38.380 I was sweating buckets.

00:44:40.260 I was nervous, et cetera.

00:44:41.400 Now I go on that very same show, and it's – and actually, it freaks – especially if I'm doing, like, TV debates.

00:44:49.560 Yeah.

00:44:50.200 When I did – the last time I was on Good Morning Britain, it freaks the other guests out how calm I am.

00:44:57.680 Yeah.

00:44:57.900 And that's not because I'm pretending to be anything.

00:45:00.600 I'm just like, I've been here.

00:45:03.700 I've done it.

00:45:04.480 I know what it's like.

00:45:05.700 And so you will still feel many of the same things, but over time, you get comfortable in scary situations.

00:45:14.620 Absolutely.

00:45:14.980 And then you go to the next level, and you find, oh, okay, this is good.

00:45:17.960 So with my Oxford speech, it was fascinating because someone asked me, were you, like, nervous before you did it?

00:45:22.820 And when I was driving over to Oxford to do it, I was completely calm.

00:45:29.100 Yeah.

00:45:29.260 I knew I had – I knew exactly what I was going to say.

00:45:32.720 I knew exactly how I was going to say it.

00:45:34.660 I knew that it would look great on camera and that it would do well, really, really well.

00:45:41.200 And afterwards, when I'd done it, I knew that it would do really well.

00:45:45.060 It'd go super viral.

00:45:46.120 It was a great speech, whatever.

00:45:47.200 But the hour before, I was – it's not even that I was nervous.

00:45:55.400 It's just your body goes into that I'm about to be in front of loads of people's stage in the new context.

00:46:03.160 So the first time I did Question Time, which is the biggest show we have in this country, basically.

00:46:08.100 Political show.

00:46:08.920 Political show.

00:46:09.780 I remember being completely calm, and then I sat down, and the show started,

00:46:15.100 and I literally felt I could not move my body except my head.

00:46:19.020 I was that locked in.

00:46:21.340 And I had to like – I had to really breathe.

00:46:24.580 Yeah.

00:46:25.280 But then when it got going, I was fine.

00:46:27.100 Second time, completely calm, none of that.

00:46:30.020 So as you have these experiences, whatever it is that you are nervous about or anxious about or whatever,

00:46:36.300 you learn over time.

00:46:37.600 And so, you know, all the big shows that we get to do when we go back on them,

00:46:42.260 we're going to feel completely different.

00:46:43.480 Yeah, absolutely.

00:46:44.340 And look, if it goes – and I'll tell this story.

00:46:46.960 So I presented a show on GB News, which is Headliners, and they got me in,

00:46:53.080 and I was very happy, and they gave me the clicker, and I went to start,

00:46:57.260 and the clicker froze, and everything went wrong.

00:47:00.720 Let's take a look at those front pages.

00:47:03.440 The Daily Mail are going with Make Coward Letby Face Us.

00:47:10.540 This is to do with Nurse Letby, who is refusing to actually face the judge when she is being sentenced.

00:47:24.920 The Times is now going with Letby Police fear that she attacked 30 more babies.

00:47:34.740 And I stumbled through it, and I didn't look very professional, and there was a few comments on Twitter and people saying this and that and whatever else,

00:47:42.660 and we muddled through.

00:47:44.900 And that's it.

00:47:45.780 You wake up the next day and everything's fine.

00:47:48.600 Everything's fine.

00:47:49.780 No one cares.

00:47:50.900 You move on with your life.

00:47:52.860 And I think people need to realise as well that the things that you think are huge deals,

00:47:59.340 and in the moment they may be, and they may feel like it.

00:48:02.300 And then everything just moves on.

00:48:05.660 You know, comedy is such a great training for things going wrong in life in that way,

00:48:12.260 because how many times have you and I, particularly when you're starting out,

00:48:16.740 you go on stage, you don't do very well, or you do really badly, which can happen occasionally. 0.98

00:48:22.100 But the thing is, the next day, no one gives a shit. 0.99

00:48:24.360 No one remembers who you are. 0.98

00:48:25.840 Most of the people in that audience go, oh, that guy wasn't very good on it.

00:48:28.500 Whatever.

00:48:28.620 Yeah.

00:48:28.740 But it feels so scary in the moment.

00:48:33.120 Oh, it does.

00:48:33.860 It does.

00:48:34.380 It feels like the world is ending.

00:48:36.340 It feels like you're being judged, and everything is falling apart in front of your very eyes.

00:48:41.940 But it's just a moment.

00:48:43.480 That's all it is.

00:48:44.620 That's all it is.

00:48:45.520 And that's more than anything what, for me, this journey has been part of.

00:48:51.820 It's just accepting the moment.

00:48:54.680 Whatever the moment is, whether you're interviewing Eric Weinstein.

00:48:57.640 I remember the first time we interviewed Douglas Murray, I was intimidated.

00:49:02.200 I was like, oh, this guy's so intelligent.

00:49:03.940 He's so smart.

00:49:05.460 But now I'm smarter than him, so it's all good.

00:49:08.240 No, but you just go, look, this is a guy.

00:49:10.960 He's really smart.

00:49:11.820 He knows his stuff.

00:49:13.700 Let's have fun.

00:49:14.660 Yeah.

00:49:15.180 And we do.

00:49:15.800 And I think it shows in the interviews.

00:49:17.200 Yeah.

00:49:17.420 And, you know, also, we've become better interviewers.

00:49:20.460 One of the things people don't realize is it's kind of hard in our game, in the new media world, where, you know, you've spent months chasing a guest.

00:49:30.980 Yeah.

00:49:31.280 And then they come on and they say something you don't necessarily agree with.

00:49:34.700 Initially, when you're starting out, it can be tempting to just let it go.

00:49:39.200 Whereas now, I think we feel much more confident about challenging people when they say things that don't make sense to us.

00:49:45.300 And you've seen that in, you know, we go into every interview with a ton of good faith.

00:49:50.340 Yeah.

00:49:50.580 But also, if someone is saying something that's not quite true, we are going to get to the bottom of it.

00:49:58.220 And, you know, for all the concerns we had about how that interview got spun and whatever, our interview with Sam Harris last year is a good example.

00:50:06.080 And when we go back to America, we're going to interview Sam again.

00:50:09.960 Yeah.

00:50:10.480 And I'm really looking forward to it.

00:50:11.780 So am I.

00:50:12.420 And so, you know, that's the other thing that's exciting is as we grow, we have the opportunity to get better.

00:50:19.360 Yeah.

00:50:20.100 Yeah.

00:50:20.280 And that's, you know, it's the opportunity to get better.

00:50:24.280 It's the opportunity to talk to people who are the people that you really want to talk to, the people you've always dreamed of talking to, the people you've always dreamed about having a conversation with and just finding out who they are, what makes them work and what you can take from them.

00:50:43.360 You know, and the beautiful thing about the America trips is that it's all, you know, to sit opposite someone like Bill.

00:50:49.940 But it's a thrill.

00:50:50.960 It's a thrill to sit opposite Sam Harris.

00:50:53.300 I listen to Sam's app every morning when I meditate.

00:50:56.180 Of course I do.

00:50:56.920 I meditate. 0.99

00:50:57.440 I'm a dickhead. 0.99

00:50:58.280 Right. 0.98

00:50:58.780 But to talk to somebody like that, it's a privilege.

00:51:03.640 Yeah.

00:51:03.940 It's a privilege.

00:51:04.400 And to go on Joe Rogan and Bill Maher and all these other incredible opportunities, it's insanity.

00:51:09.960 I remember when I went to LA, I was just that, LA is such an interesting place, man.

00:51:15.740 It's deeply weird and fascinating.

00:51:18.120 And fascinating.

00:51:18.680 But I just remember standing there in the streaming sun.

00:51:22.460 Yeah.

00:51:22.740 Just thinking what an amazing opportunity, what an amazing ride this has been.

00:51:26.380 Yeah.

00:51:26.860 You know.

00:51:27.440 And that, you know, we've been talking about gratitude for a long time here.

00:51:31.700 But I just think for us, it's really easy to be grateful.

00:51:36.480 Yeah.

00:51:37.040 Because we started this and basically in someone else's shed effectively as we talked about.

00:51:41.620 And now, you know, we're doing this incredible stuff.

00:51:44.780 How could you not appreciate every moment?

00:51:47.300 Yeah, you have to.

00:51:48.920 You have to take every moment and appreciate it and realize as well that the difficult moments are going to teach you far more than the good moments.

00:51:58.140 The good moments are wonderful and you should savor them and you should treasure them.

00:52:02.760 And you should put them away and lock them away and just remember them.

00:52:06.500 But it's the moments when they're tough.

00:52:10.060 That's the moment where you are forged as a human being.

00:52:15.000 And the fires of when things were really tough and you carried on pushing through, that's how you became the person that you are.

00:52:23.720 Because there's a lot of people in that journey who would have turned around and given up.

00:52:28.680 Whatever the challenges are.

00:52:30.780 Yeah.

00:52:31.040 And one of the things I'm incredibly grateful for is the, you know, amazing people who watch and support the show.

00:52:37.560 Yeah.

00:52:37.780 Our locals community has grown a lot and it's how we fund the show.

00:52:42.480 It's the biggest single source of revenue that we have.

00:52:45.000 So when people sign up to locals and, you know, some people give us $200 a month, some people give us $7 a month, wherever it is, that is what allows us to do what we do and to keep going.

00:52:55.200 So, you know, every time we go on there and we chat with people, I just feel so immensely grateful that we live in a world now where people can find each other.

00:53:05.200 They can find content that they enjoy.

00:53:06.780 They can go, you know what, I really believe in this.

00:53:09.060 And there have been people at every step of the way.

00:53:11.680 You know, there's a guy called Tom who knew that we were struggling when we were still in that shed, quote unquote.

00:53:17.460 And he really liked the show, so he bought us new cameras and microphones.

00:53:22.680 He just bought them for us.

00:53:23.740 Yeah.

00:53:23.960 And there were other people who came along at different points and gave us money or people who give us money regularly.

00:53:29.480 We've got top dog people who come and, you know, have lunch with us every now and again and whatever.

00:53:34.380 And without those people, this would be pointless.

00:53:37.820 We'd just be talking to ourselves.

00:53:39.380 Absolutely.

00:53:40.720 But the reason the people helped is because they could see us working and metaphorically pushing that car up the hill.

00:53:48.220 And if you do that, in whatever path or whatever industry you work in, there will always be people who will be like, I'll help.

00:53:58.200 Because people respect people who are trying, who are trying to achieve something, who are striving for something.

00:54:05.940 Because to me, that's a human condition.

00:54:09.140 When you stop striving for something, that's a moment when you effectively give up.

00:54:14.980 You're no longer achieving.

00:54:18.860 And I think a lot of the reason why people get depressed or they feel depression is because they're not striving.

00:54:25.700 They're going for something else.

00:54:27.420 They're living in a state of fear.

00:54:29.220 They're wanting comfort.

00:54:31.400 But if you strive, if you want to achieve, it's not going to be easy.

00:54:36.320 You may fail.

00:54:37.020 Things may go sideways at some point.

00:54:40.080 They're going to be unforeseen difficulties.

00:54:45.560 But it's the only way to live.

00:54:47.560 It is.

00:54:48.140 And I'm just very grateful that we have that opportunity.

00:54:51.400 So give us your money.

00:54:53.940 Absolutely.

00:54:54.900 I'm proud of everything that we've achieved.

00:54:58.020 I'm excited.

00:54:58.720 Oh, mate, the rest of this year is going to be absolute dynamite.

00:55:04.660 I mean, the stuff we've got coming up is exciting as hell.

00:55:10.840 In terms of what the media organization that we're building is going to look like, we'll be talking more about that when the time is right.

00:55:18.300 But also some of the stuff we're going to get up to in America, some of the brilliant guests we've got lined up here.

00:55:22.980 You know, you and I are going to continue putting out comedic and satirical stuff.

00:55:29.220 It's just, like I said, there is no limit anymore.

00:55:33.680 There is no limit to what we can achieve.

00:55:36.660 There is no limit to what the organization can achieve.

00:55:40.700 And also for the people at home, there's no limit to what you can achieve.

00:55:45.020 What we want to do with this is fulfill our dreams.

00:55:49.200 But also as well, we want to make an impact so that people who watch our show can think to themselves, well, I don't want to create a YouTube channel, but I want to do X or Y or Z or whatever it may be.

00:56:01.280 And that they can go ahead and do that.

00:56:03.180 Because it's by doing that that actually you're empowering other people, which will then come back to you.

00:56:09.060 Well, I agree.

00:56:09.880 And I think, you know, when you talk about I'm not special, you're not special, I know exactly what you mean.

00:56:15.640 Because we were two circuit comedians, neither of whom had had massive success.

00:56:23.340 We had nothing.

00:56:24.280 We had no money.

00:56:24.860 We had no studio.

00:56:25.560 We had no producer.

00:56:26.240 We had no cameras.

00:56:27.420 We had no microphones.

00:56:28.520 We had no experience with any of that.

00:56:31.220 But we had an idea and we went for it.

00:56:33.260 Yeah.

00:56:33.540 That's really it.

00:56:34.680 And we worked incredibly hard and we stuck together through very difficult things.

00:56:38.680 And I feel like we're right at the beginning of our journey.

00:56:45.560 This is for all the enjoyment and the success that we've had and how great we feel about where we are.

00:56:50.920 This is just the beginning.

00:56:52.480 Like I said, we've got an incredible team as well of people that are working really well together.

00:56:57.780 They're going to drive this whole thing forward for us and allow us to just be the creative people that we started out being.

00:57:05.020 And that's, you know, there's so many things.

00:57:09.020 And look, the impact that we want to make on the world is that we live in these very, very superficial times.

00:57:17.760 This culture of everything being condensed into a tiny little tweet or whatever.

00:57:24.360 That's not the way human communication is supposed to be.

00:57:28.660 And it's almost a tragedy in the sense that even in our own lives, you and I,

00:57:35.520 the conversations like this that you and I have and the conversations we have with our guests are probably one of the few times in our lives,

00:57:46.460 in all of our lives, that we actually get to sit down and connect with another human being for an hour uninterrupted by phones or whatever.

00:57:54.700 And that is quite extraordinary that we get to do that for a living and that we get to share that with the world and people can join in those conversations

00:58:02.940 and see people who are actually communicating in a way that human beings are supposed to communicate, you know,

00:58:10.600 in a world that really, really very rarely has the opportunity for people to do that.

00:58:16.060 Yeah. And that's why it's so important that we do what we do, because we live in this world and it's been said many times,

00:58:23.960 but it's true and it makes people miserable because you don't sort anything out.

00:58:30.400 You don't discover anything. You don't play on social media or doing these little soundbites or watching TV,

00:58:38.280 which is why no one watches it anymore, because it's inherently fake, every single thing about it.

00:58:42.720 Yeah. So as we move forward, we're going to be doing more interviews, more conversation and talking to people who are going to be even more exciting.

00:59:00.820 Can't wait.

00:59:02.000 So follow us on social media, head on over to Locals and subscribe there,

00:59:05.780 and we'll see you very soon with more amazing content. Take care.

00:59:12.720 Bye.

TRIGGERnometry - August 30, 2023

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