TRIGGERnometry - What We Get Wrong About Race

00:00:00.640 One of the shifts that we've seen in recent years is that diversity has become a synonym for equality.

00:00:08.740 Yes.

00:00:09.220 They're very different things.

00:00:10.780 We tend to look at minorities as belonging to communities.

00:00:16.540 And that class is something that applies largely to the white population.

00:00:22.520 You can have a diverse society, but we've got a diverse society, which is deeply unequal.

00:00:27.720 And a diverse elite is still an elite.

00:00:31.820 We live in a world where politicians, activists, corporations are happy to talk about political equality, but don't want to do anything about economic inequality.

00:00:40.760 And the point is that that affects minorities, because minorities are disproportionately working class and poor.

00:00:48.480 Those deep fundamental questions about the kind of societies we live in no longer get asked.

00:00:54.020 How do we fix this?

00:00:55.080 Can we fix this?

00:00:57.720 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:08.700 I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:09.940 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:01:11.040 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:15.860 Our terrific guest today is a writer and broadcaster who's written very interesting things, but particularly about the issue of race.

00:01:21.840 His latest book on the same subject is called Not So Black and White, From White Supremacy to Identity Politics.

00:01:27.900 Ken and Malik, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:29.660 Thank you.

00:01:30.120 Thanks for having me.

00:01:30.960 It's a real pleasure.

00:01:31.940 It's been a long time coming.

00:01:33.060 We've been keen to have you on the show for ages.

00:01:34.920 You kept saying, I'll come on when I've got my book out.

00:01:36.960 I'll come on.

00:01:37.700 Here you are.

00:01:38.300 Now, before we get into the conversation, which we're both really excited to have with you, tell us, who are you?

00:01:44.100 How are you where you are?

00:01:44.980 What has been the journey through life that's led you to be sitting here talking to us?

00:01:48.220 Well, if I was to tell you my journey through life, it'll take the whole programme.

00:01:52.500 So let me just say, I'm mainly a writer these days, and I've come into writing out of social and political activism.

00:02:03.160 And much of my writing is about putting contemporary social political issues in a broader frame, a broader historical frame.

00:02:13.720 So we're a tendency to look at issues as they are at the moment.

00:02:20.260 And that tells us actually very little about it, because you need to know not just where you are, but how you've got there.

00:02:27.020 And so you need to tell the backstory, as it were.

00:02:30.200 And my latest book, the one you talked about, Not So Black and White, does that in relation to race.

00:02:36.060 That it, in a sense, at the heart of it, is a paradox of contemporary society, which is that, on the one hand, most societies, there's a great abhorrence of racism.

00:02:50.500 Not that racism has disappeared.

00:02:53.200 It still disfigures the lives of many.

00:02:55.540 But there's a, at a moral level, most societies abhor racists.

00:03:01.060 Even racists say, I'm not racist, but.

00:03:02.980 At the same time, we are, we continually put people into racial and ethnic boxes.

00:03:12.500 We define people by the box, their needs, their aspirations, the policies that should apply to them, according to those boxes into which they've been put.

00:03:24.820 And it's as if the more we uphold racism, the more we're drawn to that kind of racialisation.

00:03:30.980 And the book is an attempt to address that by looking at how we've got to where we are.

00:03:38.440 So it's partly a history of race, the idea of race.

00:03:42.920 And it's partly a history of the challenge to racism and to racial categorisation.

00:03:49.200 And mostly it's about the intersection of those two, because it's the intersection of those two histories that tell us a lot about the contemporary world and where we are, how we've got to where we are, and why we are where we are.

00:04:06.920 And I would argue there is another dimension or another paradox, perhaps, which is certainly I came to this country in 1995.

00:04:15.580 I would argue the transformation in our attitudes to minorities of all kinds in that period of time has been remarkable.

00:04:22.720 And starting from, by global standards, quite a high base already.

00:04:27.680 I mean, by global standards, Britain was quite a tolerant society anyway.

00:04:32.140 It got more tolerant or welcoming or whatever the right word is.

00:04:35.140 I'm not saying it was perfect, of course.

00:04:37.360 Yet the conversation that we have about that issue has only seemed to intensify in pitch and volume and sort of screaming, particularly in the last six to seven years.

00:04:46.700 Would you agree with that?

00:04:47.380 It certainly, Britain has improved and become far more relaxed about issues of race and of immigration than it was when I was growing up.

00:04:57.600 I wouldn't say it was particularly tolerant when I was growing up.

00:05:00.760 I mean, I grew up in a very different Britain where racism was visceral and vicious and where fire bombings and stabbings were routine.

00:05:12.400 Where, you know, it'd be rare for me to come back home from school without having been in a fight.

00:05:21.700 It was a largely white school I went to.

00:05:25.120 And we live in a very different Britain today.

00:05:29.060 It's not that racism has disappeared, but that kind of in-your-face vicious racism is thankfully very rare.

00:05:36.520 Yeah. And yes, there is a paradox that the more relaxed Britain is, the more tolerant it is in relation to race, the more we talk about it.

00:05:48.920 And I think it's part, again, it's part of what I try and address as to the reasons why.

00:05:57.680 And it actually has very little to do with race itself.

00:06:01.180 I mean, it's partly to do with race in the sense that even though that kind of in-your-face racism is largely gone.

00:06:14.100 Nevertheless, for those who live today, today's generation, the kinds of issues they face, to them is material.

00:06:26.180 And a lot of them would feel that, for instance, we know that in the job market, there is structural racism.

00:06:36.200 In the sense that study after study has shown that if you send out CVs, identical CVs, but with different names in it,

00:06:47.000 so one appears white, in inverted commas, other appears Asian, Muslim, whatever,

00:06:54.160 that you get very different responses to identical CVs.

00:06:57.660 So if you're seen to be white, you're more likely to get interviews, more likely to get a job.

00:07:06.200 And we've seen the report on the Met, for instance, the recent report on the Met.

00:07:12.500 So we should not ignore all that.

00:07:15.820 Of course.

00:07:16.320 But at the same time, I think the reason that race seems to figure so much in people's lives,

00:07:29.600 or to shape the way we think about the world, has actually little to do with race itself.

00:07:35.740 It's to do with the broader decline of what I'd call the radical universalist tradition.

00:07:43.720 Now, again, when I was growing up, the racism was fierce, but the left held on to a universalist position.

00:07:54.080 The idea of equal rights for all, that racism was about, or anti-racism,

00:08:02.860 was about challenging the failure to treat people equally.

00:08:09.160 Over the space of just a decade, perhaps, through the 80s,

00:08:18.360 the left lost much of its universalist perspective.

00:08:27.780 It became much more drawn towards a particular, its identitarian viewpoint.

00:08:34.320 And the reason for that has to do with the broader context of the left.

00:08:43.720 There have always been identitarian strains within anti-racist, anti-colonial movements.

00:08:48.300 If you go back to the 19th century, you had the Back to Africa movements.

00:08:52.500 You had Garveyism in the early 20th century, Pan-Africanism, Negritude, and so on.

00:08:57.940 But these movements were largely relatively marginal.

00:09:03.920 That the main motive of the struggles for equality, against colonialism, against racism,

00:09:13.820 those struggles were driven by a universalist perspective.

00:09:17.760 And all the great movements that made the modern world,

00:09:21.340 from anti-colonial movements, anti-apartheid movements,

00:09:24.400 the battles for gay rights, and so on, battles for women's rights, and so on,

00:09:28.840 were driven by that sense of a universalist perspective.

00:09:35.760 But that kind of radical universalism depends on,

00:09:40.160 rests on the idea, on the belief that you can transform society,

00:09:45.360 that change is possible.

00:09:47.000 And that belief is ebbed over the past 40, 50 years,

00:09:53.160 because the radical social movements have disintegrated,

00:09:57.820 the labour movements have decayed.

00:10:03.000 Organisations such as trade unions have lost influence,

00:10:07.520 the left has lost influence.

00:10:08.760 And so people have been drawn more and more

00:10:12.340 into their own much more narrow identities,

00:10:17.880 as a kind of refuge almost.

00:10:20.740 And the more you're within that box,

00:10:24.540 within that cage of identity,

00:10:26.660 the more the whole world can only be seen through that box or that cage.

00:10:33.960 And so that more and more,

00:10:35.580 it feels as if that's the only way to understand the world.

00:10:38.760 And it seems to me that the rise of identitarianism

00:10:43.980 has actually much less to do with what people talk about

00:10:49.540 in terms of identities or race,

00:10:51.900 much more to do with the decline of that broader sense

00:10:56.540 of possibilities of social change.

00:10:58.980 That's such a profound point, Kenan,

00:11:00.660 because when you looked at 2020 and the killing of George Floyd

00:11:05.700 and then the rise to prominence of the BLM movement,

00:11:08.760 and you looked at what they stood for,

00:11:11.640 it was hardline Marxist agenda,

00:11:14.180 abolish capitalism,

00:11:15.760 you know, the nuclear family, etc, etc, etc.

00:11:19.760 And people who espouse those sort of views

00:11:23.760 are effectively saying,

00:11:25.260 society isn't working for me,

00:11:27.080 and the only way it can work for me is if we get rid of everything

00:11:30.900 and then start again.

00:11:33.500 Well, we can have a discussion about Black Lives Matter

00:11:38.300 and what it stood for.

00:11:42.580 My critique would be different from yours.

00:11:44.920 But I think there is a kind of...

00:11:50.140 What happens is that that kind of anti-capitalism,

00:11:54.840 that kind of against the system,

00:11:57.480 tends to be more gestural, rhetorical,

00:12:00.480 than there being any reality to it.

00:12:04.140 Because the kinds of movements that once existed,

00:12:08.300 that gave those kinds of rhetoric reality,

00:12:11.920 no longer exist.

00:12:13.400 And so it becomes largely rhetorical.

00:12:17.260 And what effect do you think that has on society,

00:12:19.780 that we have gone from this universalist position,

00:12:23.260 which you explained so beautifully,

00:12:24.980 to where we are now,

00:12:26.520 which is a far more identitarian?

00:12:28.520 Is that a positive?

00:12:29.780 Are there elements of it that are positive?

00:12:31.420 Is it largely negative?

00:12:32.320 It's largely negative.

00:12:36.280 Because that sense of social pessimism I was talking about,

00:12:41.240 that belief that you can't overcome the fissures of race and identity,

00:12:47.900 that those divisions are too great.

00:12:51.960 If you believe that,

00:12:53.540 then inevitably the meaning of anti-racism changes.

00:12:58.400 It changes from being a movement for material change

00:13:04.760 to a movement for symbolic, representational change.

00:13:09.000 It becomes a movement that relies on making white people feel guilty,

00:13:18.400 rather than actually bringing back change for minorities.

00:13:23.400 Going back to this Black Lives Matter movement,

00:13:26.560 my critique,

00:13:28.720 at the level of the slogan,

00:13:34.960 it's an important slogan.

00:13:37.100 Well, no one in the world would disagree with that, of course.

00:13:39.420 It's not saying that only Black Lives Matter,

00:13:41.960 but that in a world in which George Floyd was killed,

00:13:45.600 in which there are disproportionate killings

00:13:48.080 of Black people in America by the police,

00:13:53.860 then the idea is Black Lives Matter

00:13:56.980 means Black Lives also matter,

00:14:00.420 that should matter equally.

00:14:02.960 But the real problem, it seems to me,

00:14:04.980 with Black Lives Matter

00:14:06.620 is that it confuses the fighting racism

00:14:11.740 with building racial solidarity.

00:14:15.700 And they're two different things.

00:14:16.740 The idea of a global Black family

00:14:24.600 is a confected unity.

00:14:27.740 There is no such thing,

00:14:28.900 because Black communities,

00:14:30.800 as much as any other community,

00:14:33.000 are broken down, fractured,

00:14:36.860 by class, by gender,

00:14:40.820 all sorts of things.

00:14:42.060 By culture and geographical origin.

00:14:43.900 I mean, the Afro-Caribbean to African differences

00:14:46.420 are very stark.

00:14:47.700 Yeah.

00:14:50.460 And so one of the stories they tell in the book

00:14:53.080 is about a strike,

00:14:55.060 a sanitation workers' strike in New Orleans.

00:15:01.760 Sanitation workers in New Orleans,

00:15:03.360 and if you know anything about the history

00:15:04.700 of American labour relations,

00:15:08.100 you'll know the importance of sanitation workers' strikes,

00:15:11.360 they kind of play an important part in American history,

00:15:15.420 and including American black history.

00:15:17.360 It was a famous sanitation workers' strike in Memphis

00:15:21.380 in the 1960s,

00:15:24.280 which Martin Luther King was visiting

00:15:28.200 to give support,

00:15:30.480 one of the most important strikes

00:15:31.880 in the 60s in America.

00:15:35.740 He was a visiting member when he was shot,

00:15:38.560 when he was assassinated.

00:15:40.640 Anyway, the New Orleans strike,

00:15:42.740 sanitation workers' strike,

00:15:44.000 began in early 2020.

00:15:48.180 And virtually all the workers were black.

00:15:52.240 And they came out on strike

00:15:54.260 because of poverty wages,

00:15:56.380 because of a lack of equipment,

00:15:58.900 protective equipment during COVID.

00:16:00.720 And because of a refusal to be allowed to unionise.

00:16:06.480 But if all the workers were black,

00:16:10.120 it was also a black-owned company.

00:16:12.820 Because as part of his anti-racist drive,

00:16:16.420 New Orleans had subcontracted out

00:16:18.260 its sanitation work to a black company,

00:16:21.900 a black-owned company.

00:16:24.440 And what Black Lives Matter meant

00:16:28.460 was very different

00:16:30.100 on the two sides of the picket line.

00:16:32.560 It was very different

00:16:33.620 what Black Lives Matter meant to the black workers.

00:16:37.400 It was very different

00:16:37.860 from what Black Lives Matter meant

00:16:39.340 to black employers.

00:16:41.180 So the workers came out on strike

00:16:44.020 about three weeks, I think,

00:16:45.360 before George Floyd was killed.

00:16:46.960 That was the summer of,

00:16:49.500 when Black Lives Matter

00:16:51.140 and the idea of racism

00:16:55.700 and the need to fight against racism

00:16:57.500 became a global issue.

00:17:00.600 And they were on strike

00:17:01.720 right throughout that summer,

00:17:04.420 forced back to work

00:17:05.560 that September,

00:17:08.280 having won virtually none of their demands,

00:17:11.220 despite racism being at the top

00:17:14.020 of people's agenda.

00:17:18.020 So what does that mean?

00:17:20.140 It meant that the black employers won,

00:17:23.460 the black workers lost.

00:17:26.300 In other words,

00:17:26.960 Black Lives Matter

00:17:27.880 cannot be understood

00:17:30.360 in terms,

00:17:31.880 simply in a kind of global sense,

00:17:33.800 because it depends on

00:17:34.900 where you stand in your class.

00:17:37.060 Are you an employer or a worker?

00:17:39.040 Are you well-paid

00:17:39.900 or are you badly paid?

00:17:40.920 And what it suggests

00:17:45.740 or what it shows

00:17:46.720 is that if you create

00:17:48.800 this kind of false unity

00:17:50.500 of a black community,

00:17:53.820 it helps the black middle class.

00:18:00.320 It helps those within

00:18:02.600 the black community

00:18:03.240 who are already privileged.

00:18:04.660 But it does very little

00:18:05.960 for black people

00:18:08.660 at the bottom of the part,

00:18:09.860 African-Americans

00:18:11.220 are disproportionately

00:18:12.220 working class.

00:18:13.940 But because

00:18:14.680 our sense of

00:18:21.060 what we need to do

00:18:23.840 is defend the black community

00:18:25.200 as a whole,

00:18:26.640 then actually

00:18:27.420 their aspirations,

00:18:29.560 their needs

00:18:30.200 get lost.

00:18:31.560 And the needs

00:18:32.580 and aspirations

00:18:33.160 of middle-class blacks

00:18:34.340 are the ones

00:18:35.540 that are catered to.

00:18:36.420 So it sounds like

00:18:37.740 your critique is that

00:18:38.940 as we abandon

00:18:40.120 a more class

00:18:41.040 and economics-based analysis

00:18:42.480 and move towards

00:18:43.480 a more identitarian one,

00:18:45.200 that leaves out

00:18:46.720 the complexities

00:18:47.380 of how people live.

00:18:48.620 And so actually

00:18:49.320 the poorest people

00:18:50.240 in the black community

00:18:51.200 in this case

00:18:51.760 get left behind

00:18:52.660 because no one

00:18:53.740 is advocating for them

00:18:55.000 because they're poor.

00:18:56.360 They're being advocated for

00:18:57.980 because of the colour

00:18:58.800 of their skin,

00:18:59.320 but it's not very effective

00:19:00.220 at getting them

00:19:01.680 further up

00:19:02.660 or improvements

00:19:03.380 in their lives.

00:19:03.900 Is that broadly

00:19:04.360 what you're saying?

00:19:04.860 To a large extent.

00:19:06.780 I mean,

00:19:07.100 one of the shifts

00:19:09.460 that we've seen

00:19:10.200 in recent years

00:19:11.380 is that diversity

00:19:14.460 has become a synonym

00:19:15.860 for equality.

00:19:16.940 Yes.

00:19:17.600 And they're very different things.

00:19:19.320 Quite a great.

00:19:19.900 I mean, people

00:19:20.580 talk about diversity

00:19:23.620 for very good reasons.

00:19:25.940 There are lots

00:19:28.560 of marginalised groups

00:19:29.540 that have been

00:19:29.940 left out of society,

00:19:31.800 left out of the gains

00:19:32.840 of society,

00:19:34.660 and it is necessary

00:19:35.820 to bring them

00:19:37.760 into those gains

00:19:39.540 of society.

00:19:41.340 But you can have

00:19:43.900 a diverse society,

00:19:44.960 but we've got

00:19:45.700 a diverse society

00:19:46.640 which is deeply unequal.

00:19:49.760 And so by talking

00:19:51.260 about diversity

00:19:52.640 rather than equality

00:19:54.060 or reducing equality

00:19:57.220 of diversity,

00:19:58.940 what you do

00:19:59.760 is actually make

00:20:00.820 the possibilities

00:20:01.840 of equality

00:20:02.560 that much more difficult

00:20:03.620 because it becomes

00:20:05.160 ignored.

00:20:08.080 And a diverse elite

00:20:09.880 is still an elite.

00:20:12.460 And so it's important

00:20:14.560 that we recognise

00:20:16.080 that equality

00:20:18.160 is not just about

00:20:19.320 political equality,

00:20:20.340 it's about economic equality too.

00:20:23.000 And we live in a world

00:20:23.800 where people are,

00:20:24.940 where politicians,

00:20:26.300 activists,

00:20:26.920 corporations

00:20:27.400 are happy to talk

00:20:28.780 about political equality,

00:20:29.860 but don't want

00:20:31.720 to do anything

00:20:32.120 about economic inequality.

00:20:34.300 And the point is

00:20:35.160 that that affects minorities

00:20:36.980 because minorities

00:20:39.080 are disproportionately

00:20:40.380 working class

00:20:41.540 and poor.

00:20:42.500 And therefore,

00:20:43.120 if you don't address

00:20:43.800 that question,

00:20:44.920 then you don't address

00:20:46.020 the actual needs

00:20:48.940 of the majority

00:20:50.760 of black or Asian people

00:20:53.640 in Britain or America.

00:20:55.660 Why are we not talking

00:20:59.660 about the economics?

00:21:00.640 Because to me,

00:21:01.740 it seems a completely

00:21:02.740 ridiculous discussion

00:21:03.860 to talk about something

00:21:04.720 like race

00:21:05.220 and we go,

00:21:06.060 you know,

00:21:06.420 people of colour.

00:21:07.460 Well,

00:21:08.000 people of colour

00:21:08.560 can be anything

00:21:09.020 from Rishi Sunak

00:21:10.180 to someone of Pakistani

00:21:11.580 origin growing up

00:21:12.640 in Bradford

00:21:13.300 in a desperately poor,

00:21:14.680 deprived part

00:21:15.440 of the UK.

00:21:16.380 Why are we having

00:21:17.280 such a,

00:21:18.240 if I can put it bluntly,

00:21:19.720 a ridiculous conversation?

00:21:22.420 Because to have

00:21:24.100 a conversation

00:21:25.140 about economic inequality,

00:21:27.520 you have to ask

00:21:29.540 some fundamental questions

00:21:30.920 about the way

00:21:31.960 society is run,

00:21:33.400 about the nature

00:21:34.560 of markets,

00:21:35.480 about the nature

00:21:36.480 of profit,

00:21:37.140 about putting profits

00:21:38.000 before people's needs.

00:21:39.080 You have to ask

00:21:39.580 those kinds

00:21:40.080 of difficult questions.

00:21:42.020 And few people

00:21:44.260 want to ask those questions.

00:21:46.040 And the kinds

00:21:46.940 of broader movements

00:21:49.480 that raise those questions

00:21:51.500 have disappeared.

00:21:54.040 It's what I was

00:21:54.900 talking about before,

00:21:55.920 that the collapse

00:21:59.340 of broader radical

00:22:01.620 social movements

00:22:02.620 of working class movements

00:22:05.880 of trade unions,

00:22:06.840 the loss of power

00:22:07.620 of trade unions,

00:22:08.840 have all played

00:22:10.220 a role in it.

00:22:12.620 Trade unions

00:22:13.360 are hugely important.

00:22:17.460 Where trade unions

00:22:18.700 are strong,

00:22:19.480 inequality tends

00:22:20.620 to be much lower

00:22:21.660 than where trade unions

00:22:23.560 are weak.

00:22:24.900 Inequality in Britain

00:22:25.960 and in America

00:22:26.620 shot up in the 1980s

00:22:28.160 when trade unions

00:22:29.120 were smashed.

00:22:30.640 And they've stayed

00:22:31.760 pretty high

00:22:32.760 ever since.

00:22:34.860 There is a

00:22:36.920 relationship

00:22:37.940 between

00:22:38.500 the strength

00:22:39.860 of trade unions

00:22:40.580 and inequality.

00:22:42.180 and so

00:22:45.260 the answer is

00:22:47.660 because

00:22:48.680 the kinds

00:22:49.620 of

00:22:49.860 those

00:22:51.140 deep

00:22:51.940 fundamental

00:22:52.400 questions

00:22:52.880 about the

00:22:53.360 kind of

00:22:53.700 societies we live

00:22:54.540 in

00:22:54.900 no longer

00:22:55.960 get asked.

00:22:57.060 And it's much

00:22:57.460 easier then

00:22:58.200 to talk about

00:22:59.600 rights at a

00:23:01.560 political level

00:23:02.300 than to talk about

00:23:03.880 equality at an

00:23:04.640 economic level.

00:23:05.340 And Kenan,

00:23:06.480 I think that may

00:23:07.340 answer the question

00:23:08.200 I was going to

00:23:08.840 ask you.

00:23:10.080 Just let me

00:23:10.940 feed this back to you

00:23:11.660 and tell me if I'm

00:23:12.340 hearing you correctly.

00:23:14.080 One of the

00:23:14.860 questions I had for you

00:23:16.120 was where does the

00:23:17.540 pessimism come from

00:23:18.660 given the progress

00:23:19.640 we've made on race?

00:23:20.480 And by the way,

00:23:20.920 I should add,

00:23:21.700 I wasn't suggesting

00:23:22.580 that Britain in the

00:23:23.300 80s was this beacon

00:23:24.380 of cultural

00:23:25.740 universalism at all.

00:23:26.840 I mean,

00:23:27.060 I remember I came

00:23:27.800 to school here

00:23:28.360 in 95 and I

00:23:29.600 remember me being

00:23:30.300 called a Paki,

00:23:31.420 right?

00:23:31.800 And I'm from

00:23:32.520 Russia.

00:23:32.960 So I'm totally

00:23:34.300 aware of what

00:23:34.860 you're talking

00:23:35.220 about and I

00:23:35.560 certainly wasn't

00:23:36.140 suggesting that it

00:23:36.900 was, you know,

00:23:37.500 perfect.

00:23:38.220 But by global

00:23:39.060 standards,

00:23:39.640 actually,

00:23:40.760 pretty good.

00:23:41.800 However,

00:23:43.220 are you suggesting

00:23:44.160 that the pessimism

00:23:45.380 about which you

00:23:46.020 talk is not the

00:23:47.760 product of the

00:23:48.520 lack of progress

00:23:49.340 we've made on

00:23:49.960 race relations,

00:23:50.640 it's a product of

00:23:51.660 the inequality and

00:23:53.580 the lack of

00:23:54.080 progress we've made

00:23:54.840 on that front

00:23:55.600 and therefore

00:23:56.600 people feel like,

00:23:57.740 well,

00:23:57.840 there's nothing

00:23:58.200 we can really do

00:23:58.940 to change our

00:23:59.520 material circumstances,

00:24:01.200 therefore let's

00:24:01.920 pursue this more

00:24:03.800 representative,

00:24:04.820 more symbolic

00:24:05.400 agenda.

00:24:05.920 Is that what

00:24:06.200 you're saying?

00:24:06.980 I'm saying that

00:24:08.100 to believe,

00:24:11.180 to have a radical

00:24:11.980 universalist

00:24:12.840 perspective,

00:24:13.500 to believe in

00:24:15.120 universalism in

00:24:17.240 any kind of

00:24:19.160 material sense,

00:24:21.900 you have to have

00:24:23.220 belief that it is

00:24:24.320 possible to

00:24:25.100 transform society.

00:24:26.600 But this is my

00:24:29.240 point,

00:24:29.580 we have.

00:24:30.180 And the movement,

00:24:31.520 well...

00:24:32.060 This is my point,

00:24:32.780 right?

00:24:32.920 In terms of race,

00:24:33.920 right, we have

00:24:34.540 transformed society.

00:24:35.780 Yes.

00:24:35.940 So why are people

00:24:36.620 pessimistic about our

00:24:37.800 ability to make

00:24:38.540 progress?

00:24:39.140 because we have got

00:24:43.360 societies where we've

00:24:46.560 made progress when it

00:24:47.400 comes to race,

00:24:48.480 but which are still

00:24:49.440 deeply unequal,

00:24:51.420 where the impact of

00:24:55.120 poverty,

00:24:57.040 the impact of lack of

00:24:59.260 resources,

00:25:00.680 bites very deeply.

00:25:02.480 and the kinds of

00:25:05.940 movements,

00:25:07.120 organisations,

00:25:08.080 politicians,

00:25:09.100 that used to

00:25:10.840 defend

00:25:11.740 the working

00:25:14.880 class,

00:25:15.700 that used to

00:25:16.140 defend the poor,

00:25:17.460 have disappeared.

00:25:19.020 So the Labour Party

00:25:20.220 now says,

00:25:20.960 in this country,

00:25:21.560 Labour Party says,

00:25:22.800 we're not going to get

00:25:23.680 rid of the

00:25:25.100 two-child limits

00:25:27.780 on benefits,

00:25:28.600 even though that

00:25:30.560 very week,

00:25:32.160 when Keir Starmer

00:25:33.500 made that

00:25:34.000 announcement,

00:25:35.240 there was a report

00:25:36.520 which came out

00:25:37.500 which showed that

00:25:38.240 the impact of

00:25:40.120 the two-child

00:25:42.000 limits on

00:25:43.420 benefits was to

00:25:45.200 hugely increase

00:25:46.920 poverty among

00:25:48.120 certain sections of

00:25:49.540 the population.

00:25:51.920 So while it's a

00:25:57.020 good thing that

00:25:57.740 we've made

00:25:58.260 progress,

00:25:59.860 that kind of

00:26:02.780 progress has

00:26:03.720 been for a

00:26:04.140 very small

00:26:04.500 section of

00:26:05.420 society.

00:26:08.320 And those

00:26:10.100 who most

00:26:10.660 benefited from

00:26:11.860 the kinds of

00:26:12.900 progress we've

00:26:13.360 made in race

00:26:13.940 have been

00:26:14.760 middle-class

00:26:17.240 minorities.

00:26:19.660 Working-class

00:26:20.400 minorities have

00:26:22.020 benefited much

00:26:23.460 less from

00:26:24.840 that.

00:26:25.700 Just as

00:26:26.140 working-class

00:26:26.720 people as a

00:26:28.060 whole have

00:26:28.600 benefited much

00:26:29.320 less over the

00:26:30.700 past 30-40

00:26:31.520 years.

00:26:32.560 So it's

00:26:33.700 the way that

00:26:36.720 the politics

00:26:37.540 and the

00:26:38.160 economics have

00:26:38.740 become separated

00:26:39.660 and our

00:26:40.720 discussion about

00:26:41.560 political equality

00:26:42.600 has become

00:26:43.080 separated from

00:26:43.980 our discussion

00:26:44.600 about economic

00:26:46.220 equality or

00:26:46.880 inequality.

00:26:47.840 That's part of

00:26:48.780 the problem.

00:26:49.200 the thing that

00:26:51.900 I find

00:26:52.480 frustrating about

00:26:53.680 this speaking of

00:26:54.880 identitarianism and

00:26:56.220 this identitarianism

00:26:57.420 movement is how

00:26:58.020 reductive it is.

00:26:59.500 So for instance,

00:27:00.300 it will talk about

00:27:01.080 white and they

00:27:02.420 will say,

00:27:03.080 for instance,

00:27:03.740 to me,

00:27:04.060 you're white.

00:27:04.800 My mother's

00:27:05.220 Latin American,

00:27:05.980 a woman of

00:27:06.400 colour.

00:27:07.980 My grandfather

00:27:08.740 was an Arab.

00:27:10.000 My grandmother

00:27:10.700 was descended from

00:27:11.660 South American

00:27:12.280 native.

00:27:13.040 Yeah, but look

00:27:13.560 yeah, exactly

00:27:14.400 mate, and I've

00:27:14.940 got the accent

00:27:15.460 and I've got

00:27:16.040 tattoos, so

00:27:16.780 you know,

00:27:17.580 therefore equals

00:27:18.400 racist.

00:27:18.980 But the thing

00:27:20.320 that I find

00:27:20.980 really frustrating

00:27:22.020 about it is

00:27:23.100 that it seems

00:27:25.000 to me that it

00:27:25.700 was a way to

00:27:26.800 demonise the

00:27:28.580 white working

00:27:29.180 class as well,

00:27:30.140 and if I'm

00:27:30.460 going to put it

00:27:30.860 bluntly, because

00:27:32.580 it was like,

00:27:33.020 well, you've got

00:27:33.520 white privilege,

00:27:34.260 and I always was

00:27:35.140 like, hang on,

00:27:35.800 somebody born in a

00:27:36.640 council estate in

00:27:37.500 Middlesbrough who

00:27:38.440 is a product of a

00:27:39.360 single mother,

00:27:40.540 what privilege do

00:27:42.420 they have?

00:27:42.740 They have no

00:27:43.220 privilege, and

00:27:43.840 yet they have

00:27:44.260 somebody who is

00:27:45.640 an ethnic minority

00:27:46.700 who grew up in a

00:27:47.360 very nice part of

00:27:48.140 London lecturing

00:27:49.240 this person, which

00:27:50.080 to me, I mean,

00:27:51.660 it's abhorrent, if

00:27:52.480 I'm being honest.

00:27:53.700 Yeah, again, you

00:27:54.440 have to separate

00:27:55.100 two things.

00:27:56.200 One is, why has

00:27:58.060 it become the

00:27:58.860 case that racism

00:28:01.840 has been reduced

00:28:03.640 to the quest of

00:28:04.260 white privilege?

00:28:06.140 And secondly, what

00:28:08.040 are the consequences

00:28:09.020 of that?

00:28:09.620 And if you look at

00:28:13.740 how, why racism

00:28:17.100 has become reduced

00:28:18.380 to the quest of

00:28:18.940 white privilege,

00:28:19.920 again, you go back

00:28:21.140 to what I've been

00:28:22.060 talking about, which

00:28:23.560 is that sense of

00:28:24.460 social pessimism.

00:28:26.240 Take something like

00:28:27.120 critical race theory.

00:28:28.240 There are lots of

00:28:29.720 different discussions

00:28:31.100 and critiques of

00:28:32.500 critical race theory,

00:28:33.840 some of which are

00:28:34.440 good, some of which

00:28:35.100 are bad.

00:28:37.920 But one thing

00:28:38.620 that is rarely

00:28:42.060 talked about in

00:28:43.760 thinking about

00:28:44.580 critical race theory

00:28:45.420 is that it's the

00:28:46.280 kind of the broader

00:28:47.480 political, social,

00:28:49.380 economic context

00:28:50.480 in which critical

00:28:51.760 race theory becomes

00:28:53.000 significant.

00:28:56.080 One of the key

00:28:56.800 figures of

00:28:58.820 critical race theory,

00:29:00.740 someone that very

00:29:02.260 few people know

00:29:03.000 about, but who

00:29:03.740 is very important

00:29:04.640 in developing,

00:29:05.780 it was a guy

00:29:06.420 called Derek

00:29:06.980 Bell.

00:29:08.560 Bell was an

00:29:10.820 African-American

00:29:13.440 lawyer who

00:29:16.200 has played an

00:29:16.800 important part

00:29:17.560 in legal

00:29:22.360 circles within

00:29:23.380 America, who

00:29:25.260 began as a

00:29:28.700 lawyer working

00:29:29.400 for National

00:29:31.980 Association for

00:29:32.980 Colored People

00:29:34.080 America,

00:29:35.140 challenging

00:29:36.460 segregation in

00:29:37.340 the South

00:29:37.760 and working

00:29:39.240 to desegregate

00:29:40.360 schools in

00:29:41.040 particular in

00:29:42.100 the South.

00:29:43.340 And he

00:29:44.220 became largely

00:29:46.500 disenchanted by

00:29:48.320 the lack of

00:29:48.980 progress in

00:29:50.140 that.

00:29:51.180 And he came

00:29:52.040 to see the

00:29:52.760 belief that

00:29:54.560 racism was

00:29:56.360 ineradicable,

00:29:58.000 that it was

00:29:58.540 there, it

00:29:59.600 was, there

00:30:01.980 was equality,

00:30:03.620 black people in

00:30:04.160 America would

00:30:04.560 never win

00:30:05.100 equality.

00:30:07.040 And in a

00:30:09.000 sense, that

00:30:09.620 underlayed many

00:30:11.920 of the

00:30:12.180 arguments of

00:30:13.000 critical race

00:30:14.060 theory, that

00:30:14.860 sense of

00:30:16.100 racism being

00:30:18.060 ineradicable.

00:30:19.340 Now, few

00:30:20.140 people,

00:30:22.520 however

00:30:23.040 influential Derek

00:30:24.040 Bell is,

00:30:24.420 few people have

00:30:24.980 so fallen down

00:30:26.180 that pit of

00:30:27.120 existential despair

00:30:28.040 as Bell did.

00:30:30.000 Nevertheless, he

00:30:30.860 has been hugely

00:30:31.920 influential on

00:30:33.420 figures from

00:30:34.960 Barack Obama

00:30:37.140 to

00:30:37.560 Michelle

00:30:38.160 Alexander to

00:30:39.160 a wide range

00:30:40.820 of figures.

00:30:41.260 And if you

00:30:46.240 take a figure

00:30:47.100 like Ta-Nehisi

00:30:48.160 Coates, who

00:30:49.440 you may know

00:30:49.940 about, he's

00:30:50.340 possibly the

00:30:51.180 most influential

00:30:52.000 African-American

00:30:54.120 essayist in

00:30:54.940 America,

00:30:56.700 just the most

00:30:58.300 influential

00:30:58.700 essayist in

00:30:59.360 America.

00:31:00.680 He sees, for

00:31:01.920 instance, that

00:31:02.680 racism, he

00:31:05.180 compares racism

00:31:06.100 to a natural

00:31:08.120 disaster, like a

00:31:09.940 typhoon or an

00:31:10.980 earthquake.

00:31:12.180 And he says,

00:31:12.800 justice, social

00:31:14.220 movements or

00:31:15.080 laws will

00:31:16.000 never stop a

00:31:18.120 typhoon or an

00:31:19.540 earthquake, nor

00:31:20.680 will it ever

00:31:21.300 eradicate racism.

00:31:24.100 And once you

00:31:25.180 kind of come to

00:31:26.760 believe that,

00:31:29.520 then there are a

00:31:30.920 number of

00:31:31.400 consequences of

00:31:32.120 that.

00:31:32.340 First, you

00:31:32.760 come to see

00:31:34.020 race as

00:31:35.920 something fixed,

00:31:37.620 and racial

00:31:38.300 divisions as

00:31:38.980 something fixed.

00:31:39.760 you essentialise

00:31:43.800 them, you

00:31:44.260 kind of say

00:31:44.820 that.

00:31:45.780 And so, even

00:31:47.620 though your

00:31:48.540 starting point is

00:31:49.780 that race is a

00:31:51.160 social construct,

00:31:52.680 your end point is

00:31:53.720 that it is

00:31:54.540 unmovable.

00:31:55.700 Racial divisions

00:31:56.600 are unmovable, and

00:31:57.740 you come to almost

00:31:58.600 the same position as

00:31:59.720 those on the

00:32:01.360 right, who argue

00:32:02.300 that race is a

00:32:05.540 biological reality,

00:32:06.500 and racial

00:32:06.920 differences, our

00:32:07.620 biological realities

00:32:08.520 and policy should

00:32:09.520 be related to

00:32:11.460 that.

00:32:12.340 It also means

00:32:13.140 that, going back

00:32:14.400 to what we were

00:32:14.940 talking about

00:32:15.220 before, that

00:32:15.780 the struggle

00:32:20.680 against race, if

00:32:21.480 you struggle against

00:32:22.360 racism at the

00:32:23.300 same time as you

00:32:24.040 believe that racism

00:32:24.740 cannot be overcome,

00:32:26.660 then you shift

00:32:28.240 from what we were

00:32:29.180 talking about

00:32:29.480 before, from a

00:32:30.740 view of material

00:32:31.880 change to a view

00:32:34.600 about symbolic

00:32:35.720 change, and what

00:32:36.600 matters then becomes

00:32:37.680 symbolism, and

00:32:39.260 anti-racism becomes

00:32:40.860 a kind of

00:32:41.880 performative act.

00:32:45.320 And so, a lot

00:32:46.920 of what we're

00:32:47.460 talking about, a

00:32:48.780 lot of the kind

00:32:51.700 of critique of

00:32:52.920 anti-racism,

00:32:55.040 contemporary

00:32:55.700 anti-racism,

00:32:57.100 stems, I think,

00:32:59.460 not from, you

00:33:01.000 know, malice or

00:33:02.840 a desire to

00:33:07.280 be racist, or

00:33:09.140 you know, all

00:33:10.500 the things that

00:33:10.940 people express,

00:33:13.800 it comes from

00:33:14.560 that sense of

00:33:15.320 social pessimism,

00:33:16.460 the pessimism about

00:33:17.520 being able to

00:33:18.340 overcome racism.

00:33:20.660 And as you say,

00:33:21.580 I mean, part of

00:33:23.320 the irony of

00:33:26.100 that is that,

00:33:27.120 you know, if

00:33:28.880 anything, the

00:33:30.360 last 40, 50

00:33:31.240 years has shown,

00:33:32.440 it is the

00:33:33.220 possibilities of

00:33:34.580 overcoming racism,

00:33:36.280 of, not that we've

00:33:37.780 overcome racism, but

00:33:38.780 certainly we've

00:33:39.560 ameliorated racism

00:33:40.780 to an extent that

00:33:42.300 would have been

00:33:42.720 unimaginable 50

00:33:45.220 years ago, 60

00:33:45.920 years ago, 70

00:33:46.480 years ago.

00:33:47.720 So, again, it

00:33:50.040 comes back to my

00:33:51.360 point that you

00:33:53.240 have to understand

00:33:54.540 this in the

00:33:55.720 context of the

00:33:56.460 wider shifts

00:33:57.600 in society, and

00:34:00.140 the wider sense

00:34:01.440 of social

00:34:01.960 pessimism that

00:34:02.700 has ripped

00:34:06.080 many sections

00:34:06.780 of society.

00:34:07.940 Which, in

00:34:08.280 your view, comes

00:34:08.880 from the

00:34:09.240 economic dimension

00:34:10.040 of all of

00:34:10.500 this, basically,

00:34:11.520 right?

00:34:11.800 And political.

00:34:12.600 And political.

00:34:14.180 It's very

00:34:14.860 interesting.

00:34:15.520 Sorry, I was

00:34:15.820 going to say

00:34:16.020 political, because

00:34:16.760 if you have,

00:34:17.780 for instance,

00:34:19.360 social democratic

00:34:21.320 parties in

00:34:23.420 Europe, Democrats

00:34:24.880 in America,

00:34:26.500 and,

00:34:27.600 essentially cutting

00:34:30.620 themselves off

00:34:31.340 from their

00:34:31.760 working-class

00:34:32.300 space, from

00:34:32.780 their old

00:34:33.120 working-class

00:34:33.640 space, then

00:34:36.080 that becomes

00:34:36.920 a, and

00:34:38.960 re-founding

00:34:39.600 themselves, or

00:34:40.740 think largely

00:34:41.660 about middle-class

00:34:47.060 support, then

00:34:48.740 you can see

00:34:51.760 where that sense

00:34:52.760 of betrayal and

00:34:53.860 abandonment comes

00:34:54.860 from.

00:34:55.000 Well, right.

00:34:55.560 Whatever your

00:34:56.280 skin colour, there's

00:34:57.040 no one you can

00:34:57.680 vote for that's

00:34:58.380 going to challenge

00:35:00.000 authority on

00:35:01.200 your behalf and

00:35:01.920 represent your

00:35:02.560 interest in the

00:35:03.540 conversation about

00:35:04.680 how resources are

00:35:05.480 distributed and so

00:35:06.300 on.

00:35:06.440 Yeah.

00:35:06.820 So that makes

00:35:07.360 sense.

00:35:08.720 The question I

00:35:09.580 wanted to ask you

00:35:10.360 is, how much of

00:35:11.300 this, particularly

00:35:12.560 the way we think

00:35:13.440 about it in the

00:35:14.080 UK, is imported

00:35:16.560 from America?

00:35:18.020 Because I feel

00:35:19.520 that many of the

00:35:20.660 conversations that

00:35:21.540 we have in this

00:35:22.260 country, they just

00:35:23.380 don't seem to map

00:35:24.320 very well onto the

00:35:25.860 history and culture

00:35:27.000 of this country and

00:35:27.840 the society that we

00:35:28.700 have here.

00:35:29.600 Do you think there's

00:35:30.340 a dimension where

00:35:31.180 we're sort of living

00:35:32.100 in this increasingly

00:35:33.140 unified informational

00:35:34.380 field and so

00:35:35.340 whenever a

00:35:36.160 conversation starts

00:35:37.200 in America, and

00:35:37.920 BLM is a good

00:35:38.500 example of this, it's

00:35:39.700 sort of imported

00:35:40.460 wholesale here and

00:35:42.100 is applied in a very

00:35:43.480 top-down way to a

00:35:44.880 society that actually

00:35:45.700 is remarkably

00:35:46.440 different to

00:35:47.220 America?

00:35:47.560 Yes and no.

00:35:50.580 I mean, yes, in the

00:35:51.540 sense that you're

00:35:53.000 right that the

00:35:54.540 economic, social,

00:35:56.240 political heft of

00:35:57.000 America means that

00:35:58.580 what happens in

00:35:59.520 America, the debates

00:36:00.480 you have in America

00:36:01.400 necessarily apply to

00:36:03.840 other countries or

00:36:06.580 get imported in other

00:36:07.620 countries.

00:36:08.080 The most remarkable

00:36:09.400 expression of that

00:36:10.440 I've seen is that I

00:36:11.960 remember being in

00:36:12.560 South Africa where

00:36:15.400 there was a Black

00:36:15.980 Lives Matter march.

00:36:17.560 Now, anybody who

00:36:19.420 knows South Africa

00:36:20.100 will know that the

00:36:21.440 policing of Black

00:36:22.800 people in America,

00:36:24.020 in South Africa, is

00:36:25.560 far more vicious, far

00:36:27.540 more brutal than

00:36:29.040 anything that goes on

00:36:29.960 in America.

00:36:30.480 I mean, it's brutal

00:36:31.040 in America.

00:36:31.800 There goes the

00:36:32.400 Observer column,

00:36:33.180 Kenneth.

00:36:33.840 It goes far more,

00:36:36.420 you know, the

00:36:37.800 shooting dead of

00:36:39.120 strikers by the

00:36:42.120 police.

00:36:43.100 And yet, the

00:36:45.180 march was not about

00:36:46.340 police brutality in

00:36:48.360 South Africa.

00:36:48.940 It was about police

00:36:49.680 brutality in America.

00:36:51.800 And that kind of

00:36:53.720 shows that there's a

00:36:55.720 tendency when we think

00:36:58.100 about it in American

00:37:00.940 terms, to ignore what

00:37:02.640 is actually happening in

00:37:03.840 front of our eyes, on

00:37:05.120 the ground, where we

00:37:06.240 are.

00:37:07.280 So, yes, in that sense,

00:37:08.920 I agree with you.

00:37:09.720 But in the broader

00:37:11.560 sense that we've been

00:37:12.280 talking about, that

00:37:13.760 what this, and

00:37:16.380 this applies to

00:37:18.180 Britain, of course,

00:37:18.880 that the character

00:37:21.240 of race and racism in

00:37:24.120 Britain, and the

00:37:26.440 relations between

00:37:27.140 different racial

00:37:30.600 categories, racial

00:37:31.500 groups, is very

00:37:32.440 different in Britain

00:37:33.540 than it is in the

00:37:34.700 nature of immigration,

00:37:35.800 all sorts of things.

00:37:36.500 They're very different

00:37:36.960 in Britain than it is in

00:37:38.060 America.

00:37:39.100 At the same time,

00:37:40.080 going back to what

00:37:40.820 we were talking about

00:37:41.360 before, the importance

00:37:45.740 of what I call social

00:37:47.340 pessimism in shaping

00:37:49.080 the way we look at

00:37:51.540 race and identity is as

00:37:55.840 significant in Britain

00:37:57.240 as it is in America.

00:38:00.100 So, which is why, yes,

00:38:01.720 I agree with you, but

00:38:03.120 also that we need to

00:38:04.860 take the wider frame

00:38:06.200 into account, too.

00:38:07.040 Yeah, it's a really

00:38:08.980 interesting point that

00:38:09.960 you made there.

00:38:11.180 I guess one of the

00:38:12.300 frustrations that I have

00:38:14.520 is, you know, for

00:38:15.560 instance, we say sex is

00:38:17.440 a spectrum, and we're

00:38:18.460 obviously not going to

00:38:19.120 get into that, but race

00:38:20.660 is a spectrum.

00:38:22.200 You know, nobody is

00:38:23.220 completely white.

00:38:25.020 You know, nobody, you

00:38:26.140 know, there's this

00:38:27.620 conversation right now

00:38:28.700 happening in America,

00:38:29.640 are Latinos white?

00:38:31.420 You know, Asian people,

00:38:33.040 should they be

00:38:33.620 discriminated against when

00:38:34.840 they come when they

00:38:35.980 apply for universities

00:38:37.500 because, you know,

00:38:38.480 they're overrepresented,

00:38:40.580 particularly in STEM

00:38:41.480 courses.

00:38:42.400 And so it just seems to

00:38:44.680 me that we just tend to

00:38:46.520 think of these people as

00:38:47.440 homogenous blobs almost,

00:38:49.720 whilst not actually

00:38:51.180 drilling down.

00:38:52.860 And I just wonder, do you

00:38:54.540 think we're ever going to

00:38:55.240 go to that point where

00:38:56.360 we're ready to have a more

00:38:58.760 honest and a more

00:39:00.040 authentic conversation

00:39:01.280 conversation about race,

00:39:02.660 or do you think it's

00:39:03.660 just going to be

00:39:04.300 dominated by what we

00:39:05.440 see at the moment?

00:39:07.140 Well, I think the view

00:39:09.660 of racial communities

00:39:13.080 as being homogenous

00:39:14.400 groups has been

00:39:16.860 disastrous because the

00:39:20.880 people that, again, go

00:39:22.480 back to our Black Lives

00:39:23.360 Matter discussion, the

00:39:24.760 people it abandons are

00:39:29.500 those at the bottom

00:39:30.360 because you tend to

00:39:34.040 see minorities as

00:39:38.160 being single,

00:39:40.140 homogenous communities.

00:39:42.600 The most, first, the most

00:39:43.600 conservative voices often

00:39:44.820 get

00:39:45.620 seen as representative of

00:39:50.280 those communities.

00:39:50.880 So, I mean, this is most

00:39:53.240 visible in Britain in

00:39:55.500 Muslim communities that

00:39:57.200 somehow...

00:40:00.240 The Muslim Council of

00:40:01.500 Britain speaks for

00:40:02.380 Russian Muslims.

00:40:03.780 Yeah, conservative

00:40:04.900 Muslims are seen as

00:40:06.300 represented, and liberal

00:40:07.820 Muslims are seen as

00:40:08.740 somehow not authentic,

00:40:10.320 not of that community.

00:40:11.680 So, I think that view of

00:40:14.660 communities as minorities

00:40:16.800 as forming homogenous

00:40:19.240 communities has been

00:40:20.760 disastrous.

00:40:22.040 And we live in a world

00:40:23.440 in which we tend to

00:40:25.640 look at minorities as

00:40:28.340 belonging to

00:40:29.080 communities, and that

00:40:31.480 class is something that

00:40:32.800 applies largely to the

00:40:34.620 white population.

00:40:36.620 And so we have to, you

00:40:37.580 know, the white...

00:40:39.480 But what that does is...

00:40:40.480 But you're right, you're

00:40:41.280 right.

00:40:41.300 What that does is

00:40:42.620 racialise the concept

00:40:45.180 of class.

00:40:46.160 And so you have, you

00:40:46.900 know, notions like the

00:40:48.460 white working class, where

00:40:50.300 the whiteness seem to

00:40:53.220 matter more than their

00:40:54.220 class location.

00:40:56.220 And again, that is

00:40:58.240 really disastrous for the

00:41:02.280 white working class, as

00:41:03.300 it were.

00:41:04.220 To view their

00:41:07.280 problems in terms of

00:41:10.420 race or ethnicity or

00:41:12.060 culture, rather in terms

00:41:13.380 of class, is

00:41:15.720 deeply problematic.

00:41:18.000 And, for example, in

00:41:20.280 education, which is where

00:41:21.320 I used to work, the

00:41:23.600 lowest achieving

00:41:24.640 subgroup in education

00:41:26.980 is white working class

00:41:28.100 boys.

00:41:29.700 Yeah, I think education

00:41:31.580 is quite interesting,

00:41:32.300 because if you take

00:41:32.880 another issue in school,

00:41:34.480 that of school

00:41:36.240 exclusions, this is

00:41:40.280 seen as something that

00:41:41.780 affects particularly

00:41:42.600 black pupils.

00:41:45.700 But actually, it affects

00:41:47.340 pupils of

00:41:48.960 Caribbean descent.

00:41:52.520 Those who are of

00:41:54.640 black African descent

00:41:55.940 are actually far less

00:41:57.140 affected.

00:41:58.600 And that's because

00:41:59.480 it's a class difference

00:42:00.360 again.

00:42:04.080 Until relatively

00:42:05.220 recently, most

00:42:06.660 people of

00:42:09.200 black African descent

00:42:11.200 in this country

00:42:12.340 were more middle

00:42:14.160 class than those who

00:42:15.340 are of Caribbean

00:42:16.160 descent.

00:42:17.340 And so, it's not an

00:42:19.980 issue of

00:42:21.160 simply of

00:42:23.720 black pupils

00:42:24.740 being excluded.

00:42:26.000 It's a particular

00:42:26.920 set of black

00:42:28.820 pupils who

00:42:29.720 tend to be

00:42:31.100 more working class

00:42:32.780 who are excluded.

00:42:35.260 And as it

00:42:36.140 so happens,

00:42:37.600 white working class

00:42:38.520 boys are also

00:42:39.520 excluded.

00:42:40.020 Not to the same

00:42:40.940 extent, but

00:42:41.460 certainly more than

00:42:43.680 pupils of

00:42:47.560 African descent.

00:42:50.060 Black African descent.

00:42:51.340 So, what is a

00:42:53.540 complex situation?

00:42:54.920 What is a complex

00:42:55.760 picture?

00:42:57.280 Then becomes

00:42:58.420 seen in the kind

00:42:59.720 of narrow,

00:43:01.020 rigid

00:43:01.380 racial terms,

00:43:03.960 which doesn't actually

00:43:04.540 tell you much about

00:43:05.540 what is happening,

00:43:06.760 what is going on.

00:43:07.640 Absolutely.

00:43:08.600 And one of the

00:43:09.340 highest achieving

00:43:09.960 subgroups in

00:43:10.640 education is

00:43:11.500 West African

00:43:12.060 girls.

00:43:13.520 Girls of

00:43:14.020 West African

00:43:14.500 heritage.

00:43:15.480 They're absolutely

00:43:16.320 crushing it in

00:43:17.080 exams.

00:43:17.500 You can see they're

00:43:18.140 the ones who are

00:43:18.560 going on to be

00:43:19.100 doctors, scientists,

00:43:20.360 lawyers, etc.

00:43:21.500 They're doing

00:43:22.200 fantastically well,

00:43:23.580 yet nobody talks

00:43:24.520 about this.

00:43:25.920 And it just

00:43:26.520 seems to me,

00:43:27.380 again, that

00:43:28.020 the problem is

00:43:30.220 when you have a

00:43:31.180 conversation that is

00:43:32.000 not honest,

00:43:32.640 Kenan, you're not

00:43:33.420 discussing all facets

00:43:34.640 of the problem.

00:43:35.780 And when you're

00:43:36.160 not discussing all

00:43:37.000 facets of the

00:43:37.640 problem, you're

00:43:38.780 never going to

00:43:39.320 solve that

00:43:39.820 problem, which

00:43:40.760 is my concern.

00:43:41.920 Yeah, it's not

00:43:43.860 a question of

00:43:44.440 honesty.

00:43:45.720 I think it's a

00:43:46.440 question of the

00:43:47.080 way we've come to

00:43:48.160 view the world.

00:43:49.940 I think it's wrong

00:43:51.940 to see this as

00:43:52.820 somehow people

00:43:53.420 being dishonest

00:43:54.280 about it.

00:43:55.980 But we've come

00:43:56.760 to view the

00:43:58.060 world and view

00:43:59.600 the categories that

00:44:00.720 matter in certain

00:44:02.140 ways.

00:44:02.720 and those

00:44:04.540 tell us actually

00:44:05.280 very little about

00:44:06.200 the world as it

00:44:08.520 is.

00:44:09.060 So again, you

00:44:09.660 know, we talk

00:44:10.100 about Asians,

00:44:12.220 but Asians in

00:44:13.100 the American

00:44:13.600 context, we talk

00:44:14.200 about Asians in

00:44:14.780 the British

00:44:15.060 context.

00:44:16.780 And Asian means

00:44:17.540 slightly different.

00:44:17.980 For our American

00:44:18.620 view, as an Asian

00:44:19.420 person in this

00:44:20.120 country, someone

00:44:20.740 from the Indian

00:44:21.400 subcontinent or

00:44:22.280 whose ancestry is

00:44:23.680 from that region.

00:44:25.060 But if you look

00:44:26.680 at social outcomes

00:44:28.040 or educational

00:44:28.840 outcomes, you

00:44:30.500 find it's very

00:44:31.040 different from

00:44:31.540 those of India.

00:44:32.720 background to

00:44:34.100 those of

00:44:34.540 Bangladeshi and

00:44:35.300 Pakistani

00:44:35.580 backgrounds.

00:44:36.800 And that, again,

00:44:37.760 has a lot to do

00:44:38.660 with class, because

00:44:40.120 those from Indian

00:44:41.520 background usually

00:44:42.260 come from, a

00:44:44.900 majority of them

00:44:45.500 come from middle

00:44:46.500 class families.

00:44:47.360 Those from

00:44:48.320 Pakistani or

00:44:49.820 Bangladeshi backgrounds

00:44:50.900 come from

00:44:51.840 working class or

00:44:52.940 rural families.

00:44:53.820 and so just to, the

00:44:59.100 categories we use to

00:45:01.560 think about these

00:45:02.460 issues themselves

00:45:03.760 obscure many of

00:45:05.160 the problems we

00:45:05.940 face.

00:45:06.680 And again, Asian

00:45:08.460 in the American

00:45:09.260 context, I mean,

00:45:10.360 we're talking about

00:45:11.000 a huge, wide range

00:45:13.400 of different

00:45:14.780 communities, some

00:45:16.200 of whom are very

00:45:16.820 poor and do very

00:45:18.500 badly in things like

00:45:20.060 educational attainment,

00:45:21.040 some of whom are

00:45:22.340 much wealthier and

00:45:24.460 do very well in

00:45:25.360 educational attainment.

00:45:27.280 And to kind of put

00:45:28.760 all of them into a

00:45:29.760 single category,

00:45:30.780 Asian, and look at

00:45:34.460 how Asians are

00:45:36.520 doing in different

00:45:38.540 social, is to

00:45:40.540 misunderstand the

00:45:44.040 roots of many of

00:45:44.820 the problems that

00:45:47.040 we face.

00:45:48.620 I mean, taught

00:45:50.500 my American

00:45:50.940 affirmative action.

00:45:53.100 There's a, I

00:45:54.060 don't know if you

00:45:54.440 saw, there was a

00:45:54.980 paper that came out

00:45:55.800 last week, which

00:45:56.920 looked at how, at

00:45:59.440 top colleges,

00:46:01.680 Ivy League and

00:46:02.760 top colleges in

00:46:03.800 America, pupils with

00:46:06.820 the same SAT

00:46:08.960 score, but

00:46:12.560 different income

00:46:14.500 levels did.

00:46:16.240 And what they

00:46:16.680 found, not

00:46:17.580 surprising, but

00:46:18.460 it's quite stark

00:46:20.400 in the way it

00:46:21.220 showed it, is

00:46:21.740 that with the

00:46:23.320 same score,

00:46:25.340 those who are

00:46:26.500 in the top

00:46:27.720 1% are, I

00:46:31.060 think, twice as

00:46:32.060 likely to be

00:46:34.900 offered a place

00:46:35.740 at a top

00:46:36.640 university than

00:46:37.880 those who are

00:46:39.300 at the bottom

00:46:41.600 income these

00:46:43.900 are.

00:46:45.240 In other

00:46:45.860 words, this is

00:46:46.380 affirmative action

00:46:47.120 for the very

00:46:47.600 rich.

00:46:49.260 And so, those

00:46:51.100 kinds of issues

00:46:51.840 get missed out

00:46:53.080 when the

00:46:56.160 categories we

00:46:57.100 use to

00:46:57.460 understand the

00:46:58.180 world and how

00:46:58.900 it works

00:46:59.480 actually don't

00:47:00.980 serve as well

00:47:01.580 at all.

00:47:02.080 I think that's

00:47:02.500 a very good

00:47:02.920 point, actually.

00:47:03.800 And I think

00:47:04.280 what Francis

00:47:05.000 meant was that

00:47:05.900 because we are

00:47:07.060 quite often

00:47:07.560 misled by a

00:47:08.460 different worldview

00:47:09.080 and misinformed

00:47:10.100 about the right

00:47:10.760 way to look at

00:47:11.300 it, we end up

00:47:12.300 having fake

00:47:13.040 conversations, even

00:47:14.160 if no one is

00:47:15.120 being actively

00:47:16.020 dishonest.

00:47:17.160 People might not

00:47:17.940 be going into

00:47:18.720 it going, well, I

00:47:19.540 know the truth, but

00:47:20.480 I'm going to say

00:47:21.040 this.

00:47:21.680 But we are having

00:47:22.440 the wrong

00:47:22.820 conversation, which

00:47:23.540 I think is what

00:47:24.080 you're saying as

00:47:24.680 well.

00:47:25.520 And actually, I

00:47:27.040 mean, if you look

00:47:27.680 at what you're

00:47:28.060 saying, it's the

00:47:29.280 most obvious thing

00:47:30.060 in the world because

00:47:30.940 there is a reason

00:47:31.940 why people in

00:47:33.280 society compete for

00:47:34.520 resources.

00:47:35.160 They want to make

00:47:36.040 more money.

00:47:36.580 They want to raise

00:47:37.400 their status.

00:47:38.040 And that is

00:47:38.420 because deep down

00:47:39.140 we all know that

00:47:39.800 the more money you

00:47:40.460 have, the better

00:47:41.400 you and your

00:47:41.940 children are going

00:47:42.940 to do in life.

00:47:43.680 That's kind of how

00:47:44.620 it works.

00:47:45.040 That's why we want

00:47:45.720 more money.

00:47:46.200 That's why we want

00:47:46.760 more resources.

00:47:47.520 So you're saying

00:47:48.540 something very, very

00:47:49.940 accurate and obvious.

00:47:51.920 And the late

00:47:52.620 motif through this

00:47:53.360 entire conversation,

00:47:54.440 Kenan, has been

00:47:55.140 the need to

00:47:56.960 address the

00:47:58.500 inequality that we

00:47:59.340 see in our

00:47:59.780 societies now.

00:48:00.820 And we've got

00:48:01.380 about 15 minutes

00:48:02.140 left.

00:48:02.440 I'd love to spend

00:48:03.160 talking about that

00:48:04.240 with you because

00:48:06.240 you are on the

00:48:07.000 left and I sense

00:48:08.000 that you are quite

00:48:09.060 in favour of

00:48:10.000 strong intervention

00:48:11.860 in that, in the

00:48:14.920 market, if you like,

00:48:15.880 or in the world in

00:48:16.700 order to address the

00:48:17.800 disparities between

00:48:18.780 people at the bottom

00:48:19.900 and people at the

00:48:20.640 top.

00:48:21.140 How do we fix

00:48:21.720 this?

00:48:24.520 How do we fix

00:48:25.320 this?

00:48:27.240 Can we fix this?

00:48:28.340 Well, I think

00:48:30.500 the first, I

00:48:31.540 mean, it's

00:48:32.280 to have a

00:48:34.620 debate about

00:48:35.300 the market

00:48:36.500 and the

00:48:36.720 capitalism.

00:48:38.060 We don't need

00:48:38.800 to have a

00:48:39.100 debate.

00:48:39.440 I think the

00:48:41.860 first thing is

00:48:42.880 that we live

00:48:43.960 in a world

00:48:44.280 where profit

00:48:47.020 comes before

00:48:47.580 need.

00:48:48.940 So wherever

00:48:49.940 you look at

00:48:50.900 issues, whether

00:48:52.520 you look at

00:48:53.060 energy or

00:48:54.160 whether you

00:48:55.620 look at

00:48:56.260 education,

00:48:57.740 profit comes

00:48:59.200 before need.

00:49:00.520 And we

00:49:01.640 need to

00:49:03.040 reverse that,

00:49:04.580 to think about

00:49:05.520 people's needs.

00:49:07.860 So if you're

00:49:09.320 talking about

00:49:10.720 income, for

00:49:15.640 instance,

00:49:17.020 one of the

00:49:20.620 big shifts

00:49:21.680 over the

00:49:22.220 past 40

00:49:23.220 years has

00:49:24.520 been the

00:49:25.300 removal

00:49:27.000 curtailment

00:49:36.040 of the

00:49:37.280 rights of

00:49:38.060 trade unions,

00:49:39.840 it's been

00:49:41.460 made more

00:49:42.280 and more

00:49:42.760 difficult for

00:49:44.020 trade unions

00:49:44.520 to come out

00:49:45.160 on strike,

00:49:46.720 for trade unions

00:49:47.660 to show

00:49:49.160 solidarity with

00:49:50.300 other trade

00:49:50.960 unions,

00:49:52.120 to have

00:49:52.980 secondary

00:49:54.100 action,

00:49:54.480 and all

00:49:54.780 those things

00:49:55.160 have gone.

00:49:59.580 And if

00:50:00.320 we're serious

00:50:01.440 about

00:50:03.100 wanting to

00:50:05.080 defend those

00:50:07.760 at the

00:50:08.020 bottom,

00:50:08.580 if we're

00:50:09.040 serious about

00:50:10.080 wanting to

00:50:10.700 defend the

00:50:11.020 poor,

00:50:11.520 if we're

00:50:11.820 serious about

00:50:12.460 wanting to

00:50:13.940 undermine

00:50:16.340 inequalities,

00:50:17.480 then you

00:50:18.940 have to be

00:50:19.320 serious about

00:50:20.680 opposing those

00:50:24.780 kinds of

00:50:25.400 restrictions on

00:50:26.680 trade unions.

00:50:27.800 Because if

00:50:30.380 you look

00:50:30.900 throughout the

00:50:32.640 20th century,

00:50:34.260 those times when

00:50:35.240 trade unions

00:50:35.800 were strong,

00:50:36.960 inequality was

00:50:37.920 low.

00:50:38.300 when trade

00:50:40.640 unions are

00:50:42.100 weakened,

00:50:42.720 inequality

00:50:43.280 shoots up.

00:50:46.280 It's not

00:50:46.960 true just of

00:50:47.720 Britain,

00:50:48.520 you can see

00:50:49.580 the same

00:50:49.900 picture in

00:50:50.360 America.

00:50:52.040 So one

00:50:54.120 of the

00:50:54.700 things that

00:50:55.820 always strikes

00:50:59.420 me is that

00:51:00.960 the quest of

00:51:02.380 class is now

00:51:03.160 something that

00:51:03.680 the people on

00:51:04.740 the right

00:51:05.140 take up,

00:51:05.800 conservatives

00:51:06.180 take up.

00:51:06.880 It's an issue

00:51:07.560 but to

00:51:09.520 me it's

00:51:10.000 as

00:51:10.280 performative

00:51:11.280 as

00:51:12.500 much of

00:51:14.280 left-wing

00:51:14.560 anti-racism,

00:51:15.920 right-wing

00:51:16.640 defense of

00:51:19.000 class,

00:51:19.520 because they'll

00:51:20.740 talk about

00:51:21.240 class,

00:51:22.280 but they

00:51:22.760 won't do

00:51:23.380 any of the

00:51:23.960 things necessary

00:51:24.880 to defend

00:51:26.080 working-class

00:51:26.820 people.

00:51:27.220 The moment

00:51:27.600 working-class

00:51:28.520 people go

00:51:28.940 out on

00:51:29.220 strike,

00:51:32.220 their

00:51:32.560 argument is

00:51:35.140 that we

00:51:35.820 must do

00:51:36.140 something to

00:51:36.800 restrict

00:51:37.260 the rights

00:51:38.620 of trade

00:51:38.960 unions even

00:51:39.440 more because

00:51:40.040 they're still

00:51:40.460 going on

00:51:40.920 strike.

00:51:42.420 So it

00:51:42.760 seems to

00:51:43.120 me that

00:51:43.520 if we

00:51:45.300 want to

00:51:45.760 take seriously

00:51:46.600 questions of

00:51:47.420 class,

00:51:48.380 if we want to

00:51:48.800 take serious

00:51:49.320 questions of

00:51:49.880 inequality,

00:51:50.900 if we want to

00:51:51.600 take seriously

00:51:52.460 questions of

00:51:53.320 poverty,

00:51:54.880 then one

00:51:55.960 starting point,

00:51:57.260 there are a lot

00:51:58.780 of starting

00:52:01.600 points,

00:52:01.900 things,

00:52:01.960 but one

00:52:02.440 starting point

00:52:03.080 has to

00:52:03.920 be the

00:52:06.320 removal of

00:52:08.620 nearly 40

00:52:09.560 years of

00:52:10.180 restrictions on

00:52:11.520 trade unions

00:52:12.200 to defend

00:52:12.760 their rights.

00:52:15.200 Let me just

00:52:16.200 push back on

00:52:16.760 that at this

00:52:17.680 point,

00:52:18.100 Kenneth,

00:52:18.260 because there'll

00:52:19.180 be people

00:52:19.600 sitting down

00:52:20.100 watching this

00:52:20.720 going,

00:52:21.180 hang on a

00:52:21.580 minute,

00:52:22.140 1970s,

00:52:23.460 the unions

00:52:24.640 were very

00:52:25.080 strong,

00:52:25.680 we had a

00:52:26.080 three-day

00:52:26.500 week,

00:52:26.880 the UK

00:52:28.080 economy was

00:52:29.240 quite frankly

00:52:30.360 decimated,

00:52:31.920 we were

00:52:32.220 known as

00:52:32.520 the sick

00:52:32.880 man of

00:52:33.240 Europe,

00:52:34.040 Thatcher

00:52:34.340 came in,

00:52:35.560 reduced the

00:52:36.160 power of

00:52:36.480 the unions,

00:52:37.060 broke the

00:52:37.440 power of

00:52:37.740 the unions,

00:52:39.400 Britain became

00:52:40.140 a far wealthier

00:52:41.080 and far more

00:52:41.640 successful country.

00:52:42.500 And what

00:52:42.700 happened to

00:52:43.020 inequality?

00:52:47.740 Isn't that

00:52:48.360 really the

00:52:48.740 conversation,

00:52:49.480 Kenan?

00:52:49.700 Because I

00:52:51.180 think both

00:52:52.960 sides of this

00:52:53.660 discussion always

00:52:55.100 want to pretend

00:52:55.960 that they have

00:52:56.820 a solution,

00:52:57.400 whereas if

00:52:57.800 you're a

00:52:58.280 neutral and

00:52:58.980 honest observer,

00:53:00.520 what you see is

00:53:01.080 there are trade-offs.

00:53:01.820 So for example,

00:53:02.860 when you talk

00:53:03.480 about we need

00:53:04.400 to put need

00:53:04.960 above profit,

00:53:05.700 I lived in a

00:53:06.300 society that put

00:53:07.100 need above profit,

00:53:08.420 didn't work out

00:53:09.020 very well,

00:53:09.840 right?

00:53:10.420 But that's not

00:53:11.320 to say we

00:53:11.740 should put profit

00:53:12.960 above need in

00:53:13.540 all circumstances,

00:53:14.600 there is a

00:53:15.320 balance between

00:53:15.940 the two and

00:53:16.520 we must look

00:53:17.120 for the right

00:53:17.880 place where that

00:53:18.620 balance is,

00:53:19.280 whereby we

00:53:20.200 still have

00:53:20.820 profit and we

00:53:22.360 still generate

00:53:23.260 enough revenue

00:53:24.300 or stuff or

00:53:25.620 goods for

00:53:26.060 people to

00:53:26.800 enjoy in

00:53:27.260 society while,

00:53:28.680 as I think

00:53:29.060 you're right

00:53:29.420 to say,

00:53:30.120 making sure

00:53:30.760 that in the

00:53:31.360 pursuit of

00:53:31.940 that we do

00:53:32.660 not leave

00:53:33.120 people behind

00:53:33.860 because I'm

00:53:34.800 very persuaded

00:53:35.380 by the

00:53:35.820 evidence on

00:53:36.340 this which

00:53:36.700 is the

00:53:38.620 well-being of

00:53:39.360 a society and

00:53:40.540 there's a lot

00:53:40.880 of statistical

00:53:41.400 evidence for

00:53:41.980 this depends

00:53:42.400 not so much

00:53:43.100 on its

00:53:43.400 absolute income

00:53:44.540 but on the

00:53:45.220 distribution of

00:53:45.960 that income

00:53:46.400 across society

00:53:47.340 and I think

00:53:47.800 the concern

00:53:48.660 about inequality

00:53:49.340 is something

00:53:49.760 that I really

00:53:50.400 share actually.

00:53:51.880 but the

00:53:53.580 question I was

00:53:54.080 going to put

00:53:54.480 to you is

00:53:54.700 slightly different

00:53:55.300 which is in

00:53:57.260 the 70s,

00:53:58.360 yes, the

00:53:59.100 unions were

00:53:59.780 largely dismantled

00:54:01.180 by a political

00:54:02.720 force but isn't

00:54:04.300 the reason that we

00:54:05.020 don't have powerful

00:54:05.820 unions now more

00:54:06.820 about the fact

00:54:07.520 that the

00:54:08.340 industries which

00:54:09.340 lent themselves

00:54:10.420 to unionization

00:54:11.640 and that sort of

00:54:12.960 power don't

00:54:13.920 really exist.

00:54:14.620 There isn't a

00:54:15.140 million miners in

00:54:15.980 this country now.

00:54:16.720 There aren't,

00:54:17.340 you know,

00:54:17.840 that many bus

00:54:18.660 drivers.

00:54:19.060 Yeah, there

00:54:20.640 are some but

00:54:21.540 you're not going

00:54:22.460 to get the

00:54:23.340 working class

00:54:24.280 united around

00:54:25.300 this stuff because

00:54:25.960 the working class

00:54:26.700 doesn't really

00:54:27.360 exist in the

00:54:27.980 same way that

00:54:28.520 it did 40,

00:54:29.140 50 years ago.

00:54:30.420 There is a

00:54:31.480 large element

00:54:32.260 of truth in

00:54:32.780 that but then

00:54:33.940 partly it's

00:54:36.320 also because

00:54:37.500 one way of

00:54:41.920 looking at what

00:54:42.420 you're saying is

00:54:42.840 that work has

00:54:43.640 to become

00:54:43.900 fragmented and

00:54:45.840 that many of

00:54:47.160 those who

00:54:47.580 work,

00:54:49.060 the kinds of

00:54:50.120 jobs they

00:54:50.520 have are

00:54:51.520 jobs which

00:54:52.400 in which

00:54:54.140 employers make

00:54:54.800 it very,

00:54:55.600 very difficult

00:54:56.040 to unionize

00:54:56.920 the gig

00:54:58.740 economy.

00:54:59.580 So if you

00:55:00.080 look at what's

00:55:01.120 happening with

00:55:01.480 Amazon now.

00:55:03.140 Or Uber

00:55:03.360 drivers or

00:55:03.860 whatever.

00:55:04.200 Yeah.

00:55:04.820 But there is

00:55:05.740 a drive now

00:55:06.560 to unionize

00:55:08.360 Amazon workers

00:55:09.840 and to

00:55:11.820 improve their

00:55:16.100 wages and

00:55:16.900 conditions.

00:55:18.360 Which anybody

00:55:19.680 who defends

00:55:22.940 the need to

00:55:27.100 improve the

00:55:29.960 conditions,

00:55:33.560 the wages of

00:55:35.360 those at the

00:55:36.220 bottom of

00:55:36.580 society who

00:55:38.020 want less

00:55:39.280 inequality has

00:55:40.160 to support.

00:55:40.840 Just as an

00:55:42.980 aside,

00:55:43.440 we had

00:55:44.300 James

00:55:44.780 Bloodworth on

00:55:45.360 the show to

00:55:46.080 talk about his

00:55:46.780 book about

00:55:47.480 conditions at

00:55:48.880 Amazon warehouses.

00:55:49.980 So I know what

00:55:50.560 you're talking

00:55:50.880 about.

00:55:51.980 But it's not

00:55:52.800 just Amazon.

00:55:53.300 I mean,

00:55:53.940 that's where the

00:55:55.080 focus is now.

00:55:55.940 Yes.

00:55:56.380 But there is

00:55:57.020 the,

00:55:58.180 we've got to

00:56:00.460 a point where

00:56:01.360 it's very

00:56:02.700 difficult to

00:56:04.200 unionize,

00:56:04.980 where it's

00:56:08.900 very difficult

00:56:09.360 to go out

00:56:09.920 and strike.

00:56:12.280 And that

00:56:13.000 kind of

00:56:13.420 collective

00:56:13.900 action that

00:56:16.000 used to be

00:56:17.740 part and

00:56:18.500 parcel of

00:56:19.220 working class

00:56:19.760 life has

00:56:20.680 gone,

00:56:20.980 has disappeared.

00:56:23.200 And again,

00:56:24.220 if we're

00:56:24.860 talking about

00:56:26.140 defending

00:56:28.060 working class

00:56:28.920 interests,

00:56:29.580 if we're

00:56:29.860 talking about

00:56:30.340 defending the

00:56:31.380 interests of

00:56:31.780 the poor,

00:56:32.380 then we have

00:56:33.060 to also defend

00:56:33.960 their ability

00:56:35.960 to act

00:56:36.660 collectively

00:56:37.400 as a

00:56:39.920 group.

00:56:41.140 Because

00:56:41.820 as

00:56:46.120 individuals,

00:56:48.260 workers have

00:56:48.720 very little

00:56:49.840 power.

00:56:52.040 The only

00:56:53.060 way that

00:56:53.700 they can

00:56:54.280 express their

00:56:54.880 power is

00:56:55.700 through

00:56:56.000 collective

00:56:56.940 action.

00:56:57.840 And yet,

00:56:58.200 it's collective

00:56:58.760 action that,

00:57:00.040 you know,

00:57:00.340 we live in a

00:57:00.800 world where

00:57:01.280 we fear

00:57:01.880 collective

00:57:02.400 action.

00:57:02.800 in that

00:57:03.180 sense.

00:57:04.380 So,

00:57:04.980 to defend

00:57:05.520 collective

00:57:05.960 action,

00:57:07.080 to defend

00:57:07.720 the idea

00:57:09.340 that

00:57:09.920 something like

00:57:12.040 the water

00:57:13.180 companies

00:57:13.760 shouldn't rip

00:57:14.840 off the

00:57:15.800 public,

00:57:16.520 to defend

00:57:17.320 the idea

00:57:18.300 of a

00:57:19.160 well-resourced,

00:57:20.600 well-funded

00:57:21.120 national health

00:57:21.860 service,

00:57:22.180 it's not

00:57:22.460 for us to

00:57:23.420 live in

00:57:23.700 Russia.

00:57:24.660 It's to

00:57:25.400 look at the

00:57:27.520 problems we

00:57:28.300 have now

00:57:29.000 and say

00:57:30.320 that if

00:57:31.160 we're

00:57:31.660 serious

00:57:32.320 about

00:57:32.680 addressing

00:57:33.140 these

00:57:33.440 problems,

00:57:34.880 then there

00:57:36.300 are certain

00:57:36.740 things we

00:57:37.080 have to

00:57:37.380 do.

00:57:38.840 And

00:57:38.960 Kenan,

00:57:39.540 it's

00:57:40.780 looking more

00:57:41.420 and more

00:57:41.620 likely,

00:57:42.280 as the

00:57:42.640 Conservatives

00:57:43.300 are imploding

00:57:44.380 in front of

00:57:44.860 our eyes,

00:57:45.360 that we're

00:57:45.720 going to get

00:57:45.960 a Labour

00:57:46.240 government.

00:57:47.160 Keir Starmer,

00:57:48.760 are you

00:57:49.020 hopeful?

00:57:50.020 No.

00:57:51.680 Why not?

00:57:52.740 Because

00:57:53.220 I think it's

00:57:56.100 made it

00:57:56.480 clear that

00:57:58.280 even minor

00:58:03.020 changes to

00:58:05.400 improve the

00:58:07.020 lives of

00:58:07.500 those who

00:58:09.200 are poorest

00:58:09.780 is off the

00:58:11.080 agenda.

00:58:13.200 I mean,

00:58:14.080 we'll wait

00:58:15.540 to see if

00:58:16.980 there's a

00:58:17.540 Labour

00:58:18.200 government,

00:58:18.680 if there's a

00:58:19.160 Labour

00:58:19.340 government,

00:58:19.780 and we'll

00:58:20.120 wait to see

00:58:20.660 what happens

00:58:21.500 then.

00:58:22.300 But no,

00:58:22.900 I'm not

00:58:23.440 particularly

00:58:24.100 hopeful that

00:58:26.080 things will

00:58:26.500 change.

00:58:26.920 I mean,

00:58:27.440 everything

00:58:28.340 from

00:58:28.920 benefits

00:58:32.640 to

00:58:33.280 immigration,

00:58:35.180 the

00:58:36.140 policies

00:58:37.040 that Labour

00:58:38.160 follow

00:58:38.580 are not

00:58:41.300 that different

00:58:41.780 from the

00:58:42.040 policies that

00:58:42.780 the Tories

00:58:43.460 pursue at

00:58:44.040 the moment.

00:58:44.700 It's so

00:58:45.380 interesting,

00:58:45.840 because you're

00:58:46.600 not the

00:58:46.900 first person

00:58:47.800 on the

00:58:48.420 left that

00:58:48.780 we've had

00:58:49.140 on the

00:58:49.400 show who

00:58:49.840 Francis has

00:58:50.500 asked that

00:58:50.880 question about

00:58:51.620 the Labour

00:58:52.340 Party coming

00:58:52.980 in, and

00:58:53.340 the answer

00:58:53.680 usually is

00:58:54.560 very much

00:58:54.960 the same.

00:58:55.340 there's

00:58:56.120 almost

00:58:56.360 certainly

00:58:56.740 going to

00:58:57.000 be an

00:58:57.240 incoming

00:58:57.560 Labour

00:58:58.040 government

00:58:58.420 under

00:58:58.800 Keir

00:58:59.020 Starmer,

00:58:59.600 by the

00:58:59.920 looks of

00:59:00.240 the

00:59:00.400 politics

00:59:00.820 today as

00:59:01.640 it is.

00:59:02.520 Are you

00:59:02.800 excited,

00:59:03.600 from your

00:59:04.220 perspective,

00:59:05.160 where you

00:59:05.740 sit on the

00:59:06.240 left,

00:59:06.540 about that

00:59:07.200 prospect?

00:59:08.740 No.

00:59:10.440 What's

00:59:10.880 interesting as

00:59:11.460 well is,

00:59:12.080 when we have

00:59:12.540 people from

00:59:12.980 the right

00:59:13.400 on the

00:59:13.760 show,

00:59:14.020 and we

00:59:14.240 ask them

00:59:14.580 about the

00:59:14.920 Conservative

00:59:15.380 Party,

00:59:15.880 they feel

00:59:16.260 exactly the

00:59:16.880 same way

00:59:17.260 about the

00:59:17.620 Conservative

00:59:18.020 Party.

00:59:18.440 So it's

00:59:18.760 almost like

00:59:19.240 the Labour

00:59:20.560 Party doesn't

00:59:21.280 represent the

00:59:21.900 left,

00:59:22.400 and the

00:59:23.020 Conservative

00:59:23.380 Party doesn't

00:59:24.020 represent what

00:59:24.640 people want

00:59:25.100 on the

00:59:25.340 right.

00:59:25.840 Which comes

00:59:26.540 back to

00:59:26.940 your point

00:59:27.480 about social

00:59:28.700 pessimism,

00:59:29.260 because if

00:59:29.540 you can't

00:59:29.880 vote for a

00:59:30.320 party that

00:59:30.680 actually represents

00:59:31.440 what you

00:59:31.760 want, why

00:59:33.300 would you be

00:59:33.680 optimistic about

00:59:34.320 the future?

00:59:35.000 Sure.

00:59:35.660 I completely

00:59:36.820 agree.

00:59:37.480 Yeah.

00:59:37.940 It's a weird

00:59:39.100 place for us

00:59:39.840 to be in a

00:59:40.360 society.

00:59:41.720 Do you think

00:59:42.320 something like

00:59:42.880 proportional

00:59:43.260 representation would

00:59:44.300 help?

00:59:44.720 As in,

00:59:45.700 we'll get

00:59:46.100 lots of

00:59:46.800 more fragmentation

00:59:48.320 and there'll be

00:59:49.080 lots of smaller

00:59:49.780 parties, which

00:59:50.640 would then,

00:59:51.380 the argument is,

00:59:52.240 represent people

00:59:52.980 better.

00:59:53.540 If you want

00:59:54.180 the progressive

00:59:54.740 left, you can

00:59:55.340 get, for

00:59:55.680 example, the

00:59:56.140 Momentum Party.

00:59:57.020 If you want

00:59:57.360 the old school

00:59:58.280 left, you get

00:59:58.840 something like

00:59:59.240 the SDPs, for

01:00:00.260 example.

01:00:01.660 I don't think

01:00:02.420 the answer, I

01:00:03.940 mean, we can

01:00:04.780 have a debate

01:00:05.300 about proportional

01:00:07.600 representation, good

01:00:09.540 or bad, and there

01:00:10.360 are arguments, I

01:00:11.960 think, either way on

01:00:12.700 this.

01:00:13.240 But I don't think

01:00:13.840 the problem is the

01:00:15.640 mechanisms of

01:00:17.080 politics.

01:00:18.420 I think it's

01:00:19.680 at a more

01:00:22.620 profound level

01:00:24.400 of ideas

01:00:25.200 and of

01:00:26.440 organisations

01:00:28.080 that can

01:00:29.560 bring, and

01:00:30.360 belief in

01:00:31.320 change.

01:00:32.340 It's at that

01:00:33.180 level that

01:00:33.800 the problem

01:00:34.940 lies.

01:00:35.660 But how do

01:00:36.300 you get people

01:00:36.720 to believe in

01:00:37.380 change if they

01:00:38.020 can't vote for

01:00:38.720 it?

01:00:39.580 Because change

01:00:40.740 isn't simply

01:00:41.600 about voting.

01:00:42.400 I mean, being

01:00:47.200 able to organise

01:00:49.740 collectively to

01:00:51.080 bring about

01:00:51.440 change, whether

01:00:51.940 it's to change

01:00:55.120 one's housing

01:00:56.320 conditions, to

01:00:58.540 change one's

01:01:00.860 conditions of

01:01:04.200 work, to

01:01:05.860 improve one's

01:01:06.460 wages.

01:01:07.140 All those

01:01:07.860 things are part

01:01:08.600 and parcel of

01:01:10.240 bringing about

01:01:11.340 change.

01:01:11.620 democracy isn't

01:01:12.560 simply about

01:01:13.460 putting a cross

01:01:14.400 on a ballot

01:01:15.540 paper every

01:01:16.200 five years.

01:01:17.480 It is about

01:01:18.180 all that

01:01:18.680 happens in

01:01:19.400 between.

01:01:20.480 It is about

01:01:21.160 civil societies,

01:01:22.220 about the

01:01:22.540 organisations of

01:01:23.520 civil societies,

01:01:24.400 it's the ability

01:01:25.880 to be able to

01:01:26.540 protest, it is

01:01:29.080 the ability to

01:01:30.120 take action

01:01:31.060 collectively.

01:01:31.720 All those

01:01:32.200 things are

01:01:33.740 central to a

01:01:35.420 democratic society.

01:01:37.360 And too

01:01:37.680 often we kind

01:01:38.680 of think that

01:01:39.460 democracy is only

01:01:40.640 about elections.

01:01:41.620 and forget

01:01:42.400 about all the

01:01:43.040 rest.

01:01:43.680 And you

01:01:43.960 know, at a

01:01:44.740 time when

01:01:45.440 there are

01:01:46.640 increasing

01:01:47.160 curbs and

01:01:47.720 protests, I

01:01:50.480 think we

01:01:51.400 should remember

01:01:52.360 that, you

01:01:54.900 know,

01:01:55.060 authoritarian

01:01:55.520 countries don't

01:01:57.960 often don't

01:01:58.840 stop people

01:01:59.340 voting, but

01:02:00.840 they stop

01:02:01.300 people protesting.

01:02:02.820 They stop

01:02:03.360 people being

01:02:03.960 able to

01:02:05.040 express their

01:02:06.180 views.

01:02:06.760 They lock

01:02:07.620 people up

01:02:08.240 for doing

01:02:08.980 that.

01:02:09.620 So it's

01:02:10.400 important to

01:02:11.040 recognise that

01:02:12.200 the issue is

01:02:13.880 simply about

01:02:14.600 voting.

01:02:15.240 It is about

01:02:16.160 all the

01:02:17.680 tumult of

01:02:20.080 civil society

01:02:20.980 and our

01:02:21.580 capacity to

01:02:23.820 to get

01:02:25.300 together and

01:02:26.740 to organise,

01:02:29.080 whether it's

01:02:30.720 a union or

01:02:31.520 a housing

01:02:32.120 committee or

01:02:33.040 whatever.

01:02:34.280 It is in

01:02:35.360 that the

01:02:35.940 democracy

01:02:36.360 lies.

01:02:37.300 I think it's

01:02:38.000 a beautiful

01:02:38.320 point to end

01:02:39.000 this section

01:02:39.480 of the

01:02:39.720 interview on.

01:02:40.220 It's been

01:02:40.440 really refreshing

01:02:41.180 to hear your

01:02:41.880 take on it.

01:02:42.420 The book is

01:02:42.820 not so black

01:02:43.460 and white.

01:02:44.120 We're going to

01:02:44.500 go to your

01:02:44.960 questions on

01:02:45.580 locals in a

01:02:46.160 second, but

01:02:46.580 before we

01:02:47.480 do, we

01:02:47.840 always finish

01:02:48.400 the main

01:02:48.920 interview with

01:02:49.460 the same

01:02:50.020 question,

01:02:50.560 which is,

01:02:51.400 what's the

01:02:51.740 one thing

01:02:52.080 we're not

01:02:52.540 talking about

01:02:53.120 as a society

01:02:53.980 that you

01:02:54.300 think we

01:02:54.600 really should

01:02:54.960 be?

01:02:55.760 Well, we

01:02:57.080 talk about

01:02:58.200 immigration

01:02:58.880 obsessively,

01:03:00.800 incessantly,

01:03:01.680 probably too

01:03:02.200 much.

01:03:03.580 But despite

01:03:04.260 our obsessive

01:03:05.560 talk,

01:03:06.200 discussions

01:03:07.100 about

01:03:07.540 immigration,

01:03:08.960 we actually

01:03:09.340 have very

01:03:09.700 little

01:03:09.920 understanding

01:03:10.520 of how

01:03:11.920 the

01:03:13.060 policies

01:03:17.020 that are

01:03:18.280 being enacted

01:03:18.920 to stem

01:03:20.460 immigration

01:03:21.120 into

01:03:23.920 Europe,

01:03:26.180 into Britain,

01:03:26.860 into America,

01:03:27.600 into Australia,

01:03:28.220 and so on,

01:03:28.760 how they're

01:03:29.840 changing the

01:03:30.540 geography of

01:03:31.420 the world.

01:03:32.960 And what I

01:03:33.420 mean is this,

01:03:33.900 you take

01:03:34.180 something like

01:03:34.620 the EU,

01:03:35.060 over the

01:03:37.080 past 20

01:03:38.200 years,

01:03:39.220 the EU

01:03:39.860 has

01:03:40.700 created a

01:03:44.800 set of

01:03:45.700 deals with

01:03:47.860 just about

01:03:48.300 every coercive

01:03:49.400 force in

01:03:50.940 North Africa,

01:03:53.440 in the Sahel,

01:03:54.120 in East Africa,

01:03:55.480 in the Horn

01:03:55.980 of Africa,

01:03:57.100 from malicious

01:03:58.640 to dictators.

01:04:00.120 It began with

01:04:01.000 a deal with

01:04:01.860 Gaddafi when

01:04:02.600 he was in

01:04:03.020 power in

01:04:03.920 Libya.

01:04:04.940 It's made

01:04:05.500 a deal

01:04:05.860 with

01:04:06.440 Omar al-Bashir,

01:04:07.840 the former

01:04:09.420 Sudanese leader

01:04:10.540 who's wanted

01:04:11.340 for war crimes

01:04:12.760 by the

01:04:13.020 International

01:04:13.260 Criminal Court.

01:04:17.480 And it's

01:04:17.820 effectively

01:04:18.360 created,

01:04:19.260 and it's

01:04:19.760 made these

01:04:20.180 deals with

01:04:21.580 all these

01:04:22.140 coercive forces

01:04:23.120 to stop

01:04:25.320 migrants from

01:04:26.500 coming to

01:04:27.220 the Mediterranean

01:04:28.560 to cross

01:04:30.380 over to

01:04:30.840 Europe.

01:04:32.980 And what

01:04:33.640 it's really

01:04:34.120 done is

01:04:34.500 created a

01:04:35.380 huge

01:04:35.860 kidnap and

01:04:37.080 detention

01:04:37.520 industry right

01:04:38.720 across the

01:04:39.240 region.

01:04:41.460 And in so

01:04:42.340 doing,

01:04:42.720 it has

01:04:43.320 trampled

01:04:45.800 over the

01:04:47.220 rights and

01:04:48.000 the sovereignty

01:04:48.540 of many

01:04:49.820 of those

01:04:50.140 countries.

01:04:51.560 Because

01:04:51.700 for EU

01:04:54.480 cash,

01:04:55.140 they have

01:04:55.340 to put

01:04:55.560 the interest

01:04:56.000 of EU

01:04:57.760 migration

01:04:58.400 before they

01:04:59.520 put the

01:04:59.860 interest of

01:05:00.220 their own

01:05:00.540 peoples or

01:05:01.320 their own

01:05:01.780 economies.

01:05:02.180 It has

01:05:02.280 destroyed

01:05:02.580 economies,

01:05:04.280 it has

01:05:04.620 turned lives

01:05:08.300 of people

01:05:08.720 in places

01:05:09.400 like Niger

01:05:09.860 upside down,

01:05:11.420 a country

01:05:11.860 most people

01:05:12.980 haven't

01:05:13.500 probably even

01:05:14.180 thought about.

01:05:17.080 And it's

01:05:17.740 not just

01:05:18.120 the EU,

01:05:18.540 we can

01:05:19.160 see it's

01:05:19.520 similar

01:05:19.800 processes

01:05:20.500 in America,

01:05:22.060 in Australia,

01:05:22.980 in Britain,

01:05:25.000 of using,

01:05:26.760 and the

01:05:27.120 irony is

01:05:27.720 that the

01:05:29.980 argument

01:05:31.940 for these

01:05:34.400 policies is

01:05:35.300 that we

01:05:35.560 need to

01:05:36.020 protect our

01:05:36.540 borders from

01:05:37.600 immigration.

01:05:39.920 But in

01:05:40.400 so doing,

01:05:41.920 what rich

01:05:43.300 countries are

01:05:43.760 doing is

01:05:44.080 trampling

01:05:44.760 over the

01:05:45.300 sovereignty and

01:05:45.920 borders of

01:05:46.860 poorer

01:05:47.140 countries.

01:05:47.740 and that's

01:05:49.160 something

01:05:49.440 that we

01:05:50.240 rarely talk

01:05:51.280 about,

01:05:53.340 that the

01:05:54.200 way that

01:05:55.020 the

01:05:57.020 immigration

01:05:57.460 policies of

01:05:58.320 the rich

01:05:58.800 countries

01:05:59.380 are making

01:06:01.700 poorer

01:06:02.460 countries

01:06:02.940 subservient to

01:06:04.100 their needs,

01:06:04.900 their immigration

01:06:05.520 needs,

01:06:06.360 and undermining,

01:06:09.000 overturning

01:06:09.680 local economies

01:06:11.660 and the

01:06:13.420 needs of

01:06:13.780 people.

01:06:14.440 And I

01:06:14.580 think it's

01:06:15.380 a scandal.

01:06:16.440 And the

01:06:17.920 fact that

01:06:18.260 we're not

01:06:18.620 talking about

01:06:19.300 it is also

01:06:20.160 a scandal.

01:06:21.380 Well,

01:06:21.620 we've got more

01:06:22.160 questions for

01:06:23.040 you from our

01:06:23.620 audience.

01:06:24.000 Head on over

01:06:24.380 to Locals

01:06:24.960 Guys where

01:06:25.440 we will

01:06:25.780 follow up

01:06:26.340 with more

01:06:27.340 of your

01:06:27.620 questions for

01:06:28.220 Kenan.

01:06:29.900 Why do the

01:06:30.620 far left and

01:06:31.240 the far right

01:06:31.800 hold very

01:06:32.300 similar opinions

01:06:33.000 on Israel

01:06:33.640 and Jews

01:06:34.220 in general?

01:06:34.740 Why do the

01:06:38.540 people

01:06:41.180 need

01:06:43.300 to

01:06:44.520 ust

01:06:46.280 them

01:06:48.300 1

01:06:51.760 2

01:06:51.920 1

01:06:53.800 2

01:06:54.260 2

01:06:55.800 2

01:06:56.220 2

01:06:56.260 3

01:07:00.440 3

01:07:01.740 4

01:07:01.780 5

01:07:02.440 6

01:07:02.480 6

01:07:03.660 6

01:07:06.620 6

01:07:07.520 7

TRIGGERnometry - August 09, 2023

What We Get Wrong About Race - Kenan Malik

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