00:00:08.780And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.
00:00:14.040Our terrific guest to date is a lawyer, healthcare executive and diversity leader,
00:00:18.280Funke Abambola. Welcome to Trigonometry.
00:00:20.040Hello, thank you very much for being here.
00:00:22.160Yeah, welcome to the show. It's good to have you on the show.
00:00:25.400We'll tell everybody a little bit about how this happened and all of that.
00:00:29.040But before we do, just explain to people what is your background, who are you, how do you happen to be sitting in the sea right here talking to us?
00:00:36.120Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Nigerian born. Very, very proud of that.
00:00:40.400I moved here for educational reasons many, many, many years ago now.
00:00:45.960I am from a privileged Nigerian background and that's going to be very relevant for our discussion later on.
00:00:51.660My first career is in law. I worked as a corporate lawyer for over a decade in different law firms.
00:00:59.040I then moved into the global pharmaceutical industry and worked there at senior leadership
00:01:03.700level for another 10 years. But all along, I was very, very concerned about the lack of diversity
00:01:09.940in the profession itself, that people were being excluded from entering the profession. I just
00:01:15.160thought, given what we do as lawyers, it's very important that's representative of the full
00:01:19.700population. And I started doing a lot of work around that about 20 years ago, and I've been
00:01:24.640doing that ever since. And it's interesting that you mentioned that because actually the reason
00:01:29.080that you contacted us and you wanted to come on the show and talk about it, you actually expressed
00:01:34.260some concerns to us about the way the concept of privilege is now being discussed. And I don't want
00:01:39.580to put words in your mouth, but I got the sense that you felt that some of the terms and the
00:01:43.740language around it was becoming quite divisive and unhelpful. So what made you want to talk to
00:01:49.660us about it? I wanted to have an objective platform to discuss this. And I was finding that
00:01:55.760that wasn't widely available. And I couldn't understand why. And I realized that my message
00:02:02.040is probably not as popular or mainstream as maybe the bigger media would be interested in hearing
00:02:08.560about. You know, the idea that it's not all about white privilege goes very much against the grain
00:02:14.540now. And there's such a focus on white privilege that it completely excludes other forms of
00:02:20.040privilege that could be factored into why some groups in society do better than others. I have
00:02:26.120real concerns about how simplistic it's become now with a focus on white privilege. And it's very
00:02:32.740divisive. You know, no one reacts well to that, really, if they're honest. And that's why I got
00:02:38.560in touch with you guys to see if you'd be interested in having conversation about it.
00:02:42.760So let's just get into the conversation. What do you think of the idea of white privilege and the
00:02:49.580way it's being used at the moment? I think it's overly simplistic. It's a broad brush approach
00:02:56.140that can be very, very convenient if you're trying to push a certain type of agenda. But
00:03:01.760ultimately, it's not going to lead to an inclusive society. And white privilege is a very, very
00:03:08.200nuanced concept. I mean, I'll give you a good example of my own awakening around that. You know,
00:03:13.020Nigeria is part of the Commonwealth. I was born in a post-colonial Nigeria. So the hierarchy was
00:03:19.280very, very firmly set in terms of if you saw someone white and still, you know, if you still
00:03:24.520see someone white now, you assume they're an expatriate in Nigeria and they're afforded
00:03:30.020privileges and lots of assumptions flow from that behaviours and so on. So I came to this country
00:03:35.700with that sort of frame of mind, albeit that I'm from a privileged background myself.
00:03:41.540And I realised very quickly that not everyone who has white skin has socioeconomic privilege,
00:03:48.780which is, of course, what we all assumed in Nigeria, right? And the biggest wake-up call
00:03:54.000for me was I started doing work with law firms around diversity. And I remember speaking at
00:03:59.340an event almost 10 years ago. And the senior partner of the firm stood up, welcomed everyone.
00:04:04.820I was doing a speech and in my mind I was thinking you are the problem you know you're a white guy
00:04:10.360in your 50s you're the reason why no one you know if you're black if you're you know lacking
00:04:15.960financial you know funds to get into the profession it's your fault that people can't get in if
00:04:21.220they're disabled you know all these underrepresented groups were going through my mind and that was
00:04:25.960the dialogue I immediately assumed and I thought don't act on it you know talk to the guy first
00:04:30.780but I'd be lying if I said that wasn't what I was thinking. I spoke to him and we've become
00:04:36.880the best of friends since then. He's great friends with my son, who is the same colour as me at 18.
00:04:43.140This chap is now in his late 50s, still white, you know, so that's not changed. But I made so
00:04:49.980many assumptions about him. He wasn't from a socioeconomically privileged background at all.
00:04:54.920I think he still is the first in his family to go to university he had slogged it out to reach
00:05:02.140that position it wasn't easy for him and actually was doing so much to improve the lot of others
00:05:08.500but I immediately assumed that he was the enemy and thank goodness I didn't act on that
00:05:14.200my fear is that a lot of people do act on that assumption and it leads to so much
00:05:19.800misunderstanding society and that's what I'm trying to to stop from happening. Funke what do
00:05:25.820when we use the term white privilege what do you mean by that? So what I think I think it means in
00:05:34.080some contexts is that for historical reasons and we can talk about you know the slave trade and how
00:05:40.700that set a hierarchy around the colour of your skin and imperialism and colonialism but for
00:05:46.720historical reasons, there was a clear pecking order based on the colour of your skin. And,
00:05:52.820you know, the whiter you are, the more privileges you got, you were treated better and so on.
00:05:58.160Now, that's for very, you know, hardwired historical reasons. And the media has picked
00:06:04.000up on that now, like the media just reinforces that messaging. So I think that's what the
00:06:11.000understanding of white privilege comes from, is that very, very simplistic view that on the face
00:06:16.100of it, the assumptions that are made about you will vary hugely depending on the colour of your
00:06:21.820skin. Walking around trying to get here today, you know, people would not assume, would they,
00:06:28.080that I'm a lawyer, I've done this, I've done that, because I'm a black woman. And it wouldn't
00:06:31.620immediately cross anyone's mind that I'd done all these things. So I get...
00:06:36.740Do you think that's true? Like, if you open your mouth, I would immediately assume that
00:06:40.140you're well educated from a middle class background, probably are a lawyer.
00:07:37.300But what I would say is where someone has made assumptions about me because I'm black.
00:07:41.600So my first interview many years ago for a corporate solicitor's role, I walked in, suited and booted.
00:07:47.980I'd spent a fortune on my suit. I looked the part. I walked up to reception and I said, I'm here for the job with, and I named the name of the corporate partner.
00:07:56.780And the receptionist said, oh, that's odd. I thought he already had a secretary.
00:08:00.820So it could have been because I'm female, possibly. And I said, I don't know about his secretarial status.
00:08:07.040You know, I've got no idea, but I'm here for the junior solicitor's role.
00:08:11.160She was mortified, embarrassed and so on.
00:08:13.160Now, you could think, you know, what made her assume that?
00:16:40.120And we've started to misuse that word as well.
00:16:42.440I think Mike Graham, when we had him on the show,
00:16:44.580he made the point about the Korean film Parasite.
00:16:47.760Everyone celebrated this diverse movie winning the award.
00:16:51.100it was all koreans do you think that's a word we're starting to misuse as well i think so and
00:16:58.500i have my own sort of definition i'm all about redefining terms right let's do that it starts
00:17:05.980with diversity and it's actually developed from verna myers who's the inclusion strategy
00:17:10.540um the vice president of inclusion strategy at netflix so she talks she uses this dance analogy
00:17:16.740and I'll walk you through the steps because it's really really powerful so it starts with diversity
00:17:20.980which is being invited to the party inclusion is being asked to dance so I thought actually once
00:17:26.280you've been asked to dance you want to be able to dance as if no one's watching you right at a party
00:17:30.200so that for me is stage three which is belonging and then we're working towards equity which is
00:17:36.100where you're actually on the party planning team you can decide who gets invited the mix of guests
00:17:41.780and so on the problem with just focusing on diversity is that it's actually very superficial
00:17:47.440so to your point it could be all about the visual representation without factoring some of the other
00:17:53.340aspects that are important as well we're actually working towards diversity of thought you know to
00:17:58.760be on that party planning team using my final stage analogy we want as many diverse groups
00:18:05.480around that table as possible so you're not inviting the same types of people to the party
00:18:09.640for example, that you're not, you know, having the same types of parties. I mean, it's a silly
00:18:14.260example to use, but it actually really, really gets the point across about how you might want
00:18:19.080an organisation to feel once you've got the equity part sorted out. Interviews, you know,
00:18:24.860so being invited to the party, who decides who gets invited, and making sure that's a diverse
00:18:30.400representation of society. So you're right, diversity in itself is hugely problematic as a
00:18:35.620focus. Equity is quite a quote-unquote problematic word for a lot of people because, you know, it
00:18:42.180gets used by different people in different ways. And to some people, what that means is a quality
00:18:46.740of outcome, right? It's not about your talent, which is what you were talking about before. It's
00:18:50.480about, you know, black and white people in all circumstances should have the same outcomes.
00:18:55.080And it seems, again, very blanket sometimes. What do you mean when you use that word?
00:18:59.680It's actually the equity of access to come in and be able to make decisions. That's what really drives and influences change in organisations. So it's not enough to be invited in the door. And that's why we see some organisations where at the lower end of the organisation, it is very diverse across many, many different underrepresented groups.
00:19:25.000and then the higher up you go arguably the less diverse it becomes now that is why equity the way
00:19:32.660I define it is important you know equity means something different if you're a corporate lawyer
00:19:37.320I mean it means you're getting shares in the company so I'm really really aware of what you're
00:19:41.640saying but if you don't have the quality of access the equity of access in the first place
00:19:47.460how are you going to have the outcomes at the end you do need that pipeline of the diverse talent
00:19:53.860coming in the door in the first place.
00:19:55.820Isn't that just a time thing, though, to a large extent?
00:19:58.540Just like, you know, we've got all the diversity initiatives now.
00:20:02.100They're seeming to be working, broadly speaking, right?
00:20:04.960So 20 years, 30 years from now, the senior positions are all going to be mixed
00:20:08.840and, you know, filled by different people anyway.
00:20:23.860It starts with engaging young students in schools, you know, in years nine and 10 in the local community, disadvantaged schools, getting them in for shadow work experience.
00:20:34.380And that's how you build up the pipeline. And some clients want the quick fix, you know, arguably.
00:20:41.320So they'll be looking straight away at the board appointments. And that's where it can be a problem because, you know, people can think you're a diversity hire and, you know, all this sort of very, very insulting.
00:20:51.460even if you're worthy of the position often there's real resistance to that approach i prefer the long
00:20:58.260slow steady approach where you know you're supporting young children very very early on
00:21:02.980and then they then join the firm later on and they work their way through that way
00:21:07.120and i think that's a that's probably the best way of doing it because we talk about diversity
00:21:11.820you know it's all very superficial because if you look at you know the legal profession how many of
00:21:17.900them come from a council estate in Middlesbrough? How many of them come from very, very poor
00:21:22.860backgrounds? I would hazard a guess that even, you know, the people who are Asian or black or
00:21:28.200African, whatever background they come from, are all probably quite wealthy and very privileged.
00:21:32.780Yeah, they really are. I mean, it's something like almost 50%, I think, of partners, so that,
00:21:38.920you know, sitting on the sort of leadership team, if you like, are from privately educated
00:21:43.860backgrounds when only seven percent of the children in this country have had a private education so
00:21:50.040clearly you know I mean that's a nonsense right and you know I did a research piece just on that
00:21:56.080you know just on the social mobility challenges because I could sense that that was happening
00:22:01.200like what's going on you know um how many more people from a private background do we have
00:22:06.260in this firm and you're absolutely right there's a real bias in favor of those who are privately
00:22:12.700educated even the universities that people graduate from in the league profession it's very
00:22:18.440elitist russell group you know the top 24 and for some firms oxbridge you know they really they go
00:22:25.720for the oxbridge graduates uh and and that's what they prioritize so it's an issue you know it's a
00:22:31.340real issue hey kk are you a fan of cultural appropriation of course i can't go down to the
00:22:40.200local supermarket unless I'm dressed like a Mexican bandit, or as I like to think about it,
00:22:44.820your cousin. In that case, you're going to love Beer Rebel Noodles. They make award-winning
00:22:50.020delicious ramen noodles with an Irish twist. What, bankruptcy and alcoholism? No, all their
00:22:55.440noodles are homemade using high-quality ingredients. In fact, respected food critic Jay
00:23:01.160Rainer called them deserving of poetry. What a cuck man up, Jay. Their sauces, noodles and
00:23:07.140Bross are created using skills that were developed over years of working in Michelin-starred kitchens.
00:23:12.880They're dead easy to make, the noodles take one minute to cook,
00:23:16.180and the whole dish takes only 10 minutes to put together in the comfort of your own home.
00:23:21.080I'm hungry just explaining this to you.
00:35:41.020that that's a healthy way to think about these things.
00:35:42.860I think even when you are potentially being discriminated against, there's only really one answer on an individual level, which is to work hard and to get your foot through the door, you know, somehow.
00:35:53.620Yeah. And that's the thing. You know, I did have to make 150 phone calls. You're absolutely right.
00:35:58.260And I shouldn't have had to do that because, you know, I ticked all the, you know, all the academic criteria, all the things that were priority for law firms.
00:36:06.720So it was genuinely a surprise. And when you see others getting the interviews and you're not and, you know,
00:36:11.980you just realise hang on a second I've got better grades I went to a better university or whatever
00:36:16.040but I think also it's a fact of life that we're in an increasingly competitive world
00:36:22.420you are going to face more rejection for some of these opportunities and there'll be times when
00:36:28.320it's got nothing to do with your race gender you know sexual orientation it's just that maybe there
00:36:33.980was another candidate who was better than you you know and sometimes you just have to keep trying
00:36:39.080and hope that you have support around you to keep you hanging in there which I did have thank
00:36:44.260goodness but many people don't even have that and that's why it's so difficult for some if you
00:36:50.880didn't have the support if you didn't have the family structure you know I would have given up
00:36:55.000frankly if I hadn't had my dad saying you've got to keep at this if I hadn't had my husband at the
00:37:00.160time saying there's no option for you not to keep trying you've just got to do it there are many
00:37:05.840people who don't have that and again i was very privileged to have that support you know yeah as
00:37:11.360francis always says you've got to be like the ugly guy in a nightclub just coming coming up to everyone
00:37:16.160just be respectful that's all just approach respectfully but actually you know we just had
00:37:31.400mercy marocchi on the show uh i don't know if you you watch that interview and you know you talk
00:37:35.620about the parent situation you know you talk about privilege all you want the number one privilege
00:37:41.060is to have two parents who love you yeah very important it's just and without that all the
00:37:45.580data basically shows if you don't have that your life is that much harder it's so so key i mean
00:37:50.940you know even though my my ex and i are divorced you know we co-parent we have the same values
00:37:56.200high aspirations for our son support him we're on his case i mean that you know when he wants
00:38:01.220to give up piano a few years there was absolutely no way that was going to happen he's glad he
00:38:05.660carried on right that is the most middle class thing i've heard in an interview ever giving up
00:38:10.660piano i thought you were going to say he was having trouble at school no no the poor boy just
00:38:14.560gave up piano bam there were other things you know he was lacking focus in other ways and you know
00:38:19.960the discipline of the piano exams was what he was actually resisting at the time uh so even that's
00:38:25.020more nuanced than what i said earlier but um but you know as a black boy in this country the
00:38:30.380statistics say one thing but he's got two parents a wider family you know goes to great school so
00:38:36.580he's been given every advantage to maximize his potential but the family structure is key it is
00:38:42.380so so important and anyone who glosses over that just you know it's being really simplistic actually
00:38:48.960it matters of course it does it matters a huge amount you see it right the way through education
00:38:54.200and particularly boys as well they need that stabilizing influence of a father because once
00:38:59.520they get to a certain age mum can't control them as well yeah and it needs dad to go in and go
00:39:05.180you're you're starting to take the mick now you know it really does and in situations where
00:39:10.540you know dad is absent for whatever reason you know really good mentor can plug that gap you
00:39:16.560know I was involved in David Lammy's review of the criminal justice system and he asked me to
00:39:21.500look at role modeling funnily enough you know of all things so I you know I walked into a workshop
00:39:26.820with 10 ex-offenders I mean you know it's one of the most interesting episodes of my life
00:39:33.340shall we say but it was fantastic talking to these young men because what had helped them
00:39:38.540turn the corner once they'd left prison was they'd you know aligned with organizations that ran
00:39:44.660you know focused mentorship programs that plugged the gap if you like because the father was absent
00:39:52.300and mum was having to do two or three jobs to keep the, you know,
00:44:56.620but how do you think changing that is going to be is it's just a question of time or do you think
00:45:04.620there more needs to be put in place to change the fact that people at the top still tend to be
00:45:08.940publicly school educated white and male even that is changing over time i can think of at least five
00:45:15.480managing partners in law firms who are black i could i mean 20 years ago i would never thought
00:45:22.840that was possible you know and not all from you know socioeconomically privileged backgrounds
00:45:27.740either you know one of them the lady is far from it you know very very deprived background again
00:45:33.000I won't name her but she'll know exactly who she is if she watches this so it takes time right it
00:45:38.740takes time before people become partners you know to be promoted to partner you need to have good
00:45:43.740clients and be billing a certain amount and we don't want to shortchange that in any way and
00:45:48.940patience is so important in all of this you know we just need to keep at it and slowly but surely
00:45:56.220that change will come but we must avoid divisive language in that process yeah and do you think
00:46:02.000it would be helpful to celebrate how far we've come to some extent do you think that's a good
00:46:07.700thing or do you think that's you know not doing justice to the people who are still struggling
00:46:11.220i think there's a careful balance to be struck there which is why the report you know the
00:46:16.300Tony Sewell's report, unfortunately, backfired spectacularly. I mean, there were lots of
00:46:21.740issues around how it was delivered. You know, certain race correspondents weren't invited to
00:46:26.780have a look at the report beforehand and should have been. And there's a lot of, you know,
00:46:30.500really bad mismanagement in terms of the release of the report messaging that came out, which did
00:46:35.260not help at all. What the report was trying to do in some sections was celebrating the progress
00:46:42.240that has been made but unfortunately it came across and I read the whole thing twice just to
00:46:48.920be sure it came across as playing down some of the real challenges that still persist. Like what
00:46:55.040what did you think it was played that was being played down by the report? So it was oversimplifying
00:47:00.700the family structure piece to the point where so I'm a single mother right so according to this
00:47:07.060report my son should i mean it was very simple if the father's absent from the home that that then
00:47:13.140means all these outcomes but that's not always the case statistically speaking across the population
00:47:18.060but you know so i my that immediately got my back up because i know lots of divorced moms and you
00:47:23.280know whose kids are doing well and the way that it separated out different ethnic groups as well
00:47:29.520was helpful up to a point but again was actually quite divisive as well so the point that was made
00:47:36.320about black boys that if you're black african and west african specifically your outcomes are
00:47:41.120better you know what are the solutions to that though is what really should be should have been
00:47:46.600fleshed out if the father is absent well what can we do to to support the mum who's struggling you
00:47:52.600know so reminding the mum that the father is absent which a lot of you know people i know read
00:47:57.920it's just very emotive stuff that doesn't move things forward and a lot of people are justifiably
00:48:04.760very upset by the way things like the the slave trade was sort of summarized as the Caribbean
00:48:11.820experience that I mean that is a really insulting thing to say to someone who's
00:48:17.880descended from slaves and you just don't use language like that I I'm maybe I'm not understanding
00:48:24.880it and possibly some people watching what what do you mean it's an insulting experience to say
00:48:30.260I think the distinction, if I read the report as well, obviously, was that if you're a black African like you are, first generation immigrant, I imagine your ancestors did not experience slavery.
00:48:42.120Whereas the reason potentially, and this is my opinion, that Caribbeans in the UK do less well is that they were the descendants of slaves in many cases.
00:48:52.560and also they are they came to this country not in you know 2000 or or 1995 or whatever but in like
00:49:01.3001960 when there was overt racism and discrimination i think that was the point of the report so what
00:49:07.180was insulting just to clarify so the reference to the caribbean experience was actually to the
00:49:11.340experience of slavery it wasn't the caribbean experience here in the uk okay and that really
00:49:16.460got a lot of my friends from that part of the world why i just don't because the way it was
00:49:22.460perceived was that they were playing you know they very neatly summarized what was a horrific period
00:49:27.300of history using those two words and some people felt this wasn't a cruise I mean Caribbean
00:49:33.260experience makes it sound like you went on a cruise ship and had fun in the sun and I didn't
00:49:38.100see it that way but I had to accept that of course I wouldn't because I that's not my you know my
00:49:44.140ancestors didn't have that direct experience so I had to accept that because my friends from
00:49:51.140Caribbean had very very different way of looking at it it was a far it was a very very inflammatory
00:49:58.240use of language for which some of the commissioners you know admitted that actually this is what they
00:50:03.760meant you know they publish a clarification document and they apologize for the use of that
00:50:09.540phrase so whilst I didn't read it that way and this is the point that we must remember the way
00:50:15.560the message lands for me you you know there'll be someone somewhere who their lived experience is a
00:50:20.540trigger for them and you've got to actually accept that and try and find a more collaborative
00:50:25.880inclusive way of trying to drive things through and it's a real shame about that report you know
00:50:31.780if I'd had the chance to help to write it even I would hope that I'd have phrased things slightly
00:50:37.100differently and had a bit more balance about just how tough things are for people now still in the
00:50:43.900UK from certain communities it's interesting and in particular you were saying how tough things are
00:50:50.180for certain communities could you expand upon that point a little bit more well the socio-economic
00:50:55.020point is is the biggest leveler that we we face you know if you are born into a socially deprived
00:51:00.900background irrespective of your race you are going to find it challenging it becomes a vicious circle
00:51:06.540I mean you used to be a teacher didn't you you know you'd have seen this with the kids you know
00:51:10.600it's very hard to overcome getting the top grades when you don't have the sport at home you don't
00:51:15.960have a quiet place to work at home. These are things that some of the young people I mentor
00:51:20.140tell me that, you know, my son's never had that problem, right? He has a quiet place to work and
00:51:25.240we've had to push him on occasion to actually make good use of that. But, you know, he has that
00:51:29.900support around him and it becomes very, very difficult. If you don't get the grades, then
00:51:34.420you can't get into the top universities where, you know, that's the preferred university of choice
00:51:39.680for many, many employers and on and on and on. Now, if you are born into a socially deprived
00:51:45.300background and you're also a visible minority that's a double disadvantage if you have an
00:51:52.320African name it's a lot to overcome it's a lot to overcome if you think about the many many many
00:51:58.800different steps that you need to go through to get those good grades to get the qualifications
00:52:03.880to actually stand in good stead for these really good jobs and there's a huge section of our society
00:52:10.900that is struggling with that and I think that's what the report was sort of trying to get across
00:52:16.660that there are pockets where that's not the case but actually they tend not to be those who are
00:52:23.720socially deprived in some you know I wish they'd looked a bit more into the socio-economic aspects
00:52:28.980as well you know it became too simple the nuances that were drawn were far too simple for me
00:52:35.220but it's a tough job to do right that's what I was going to say in this political climate
00:52:40.040like someone is always going to find a phrase that triggers them and i'm not saying it's it's
00:52:45.400not reasonable i don't know but it's it's a very difficult job to prepare a report like that where
00:52:52.380and i come back to the question i we started this bit of the conversation with which is
00:52:56.400how do we celebrate the progress we've made without you know dismissing the fact that some
00:53:01.200people still have a hard time with it a good tweet i think for me the way i do it is through
00:53:06.700role modelling. You know, I do all sorts of things to get the positive stories out there. You know,
00:53:12.560I'm doing a podcast series at the moment. I'm interviewing a really wide range of leaders,
00:53:16.400different sectors. Is it out already? It's out already. What's it called? It's called The Power
00:53:20.180of Privilege and Allyship. And I'm interviewing many, many different types of leaders, some
00:53:25.580actually very junior, but are still leading in their own way, different backgrounds, different
00:53:30.780races, different socioeconomic backgrounds. My son features in a few of the episodes, because
00:53:36.540he's had such positive impact if you want to call it that from some of these individuals like the
00:53:42.600gentleman I immediately assumed was the problem when I went to his law firm you know he's very
00:53:47.500good friends with my son and they talk in one of the episodes about how that relationship how
00:53:52.640they've learned from each other and you'd never I mean if you look at the two of them they couldn't
00:53:57.280look more different and yet they've supported and learned from each other and that's the magic that
00:54:03.020can happen when we open our minds to it. So it's important that we try and learn from each other
00:54:08.400as well around some of these lived experiences and open things up a bit more. Can I pick up
00:54:14.340another language thing? Allyship. Well, I wasn't going to say that, but actually, I mean, we can
00:54:20.960get into that if you want. But a lot of these words, they're like the trigger words for the
00:54:26.140left, the trigger words for the right, there's trigger words for everybody, right? So lived
00:54:30.260experience is a personal trigger for me and I tell you why because I'm like why do you need to put
00:54:34.820lived it's just your experience do you know what I mean like what why do you use that phrase I
00:54:40.060suppose lived is that you've really really felt it it's always like you need that validation that
00:54:45.340I lived through this and that was my experience um but yeah I mean I get your point you know
00:54:50.720if you say my experience was this I suppose the fear is that someone might say well was that your
00:54:55.640perception more than your experience it might get watered down but the thing is all lived experience
00:54:59.840is perception all of our experiences go through our filters and we don't really know what happened
00:55:04.060okay well you brought it up yourself let's talk about allyship how can francis and i be great
00:55:10.140allies so again this is another you know word that gets people's backs up they don't really
00:55:16.160understand what's meant by it i talk about becoming friends with people understanding
00:55:22.000where they're coming from people who aren't like you and that you happen to work with because i i
00:55:26.820do this in the workplace right it really is as simple as that and i give examples of very simple
00:55:32.640things you can do to stand up for that person calling it out you know i've been i'm a straight
00:55:37.680woman i've been in rooms where terrible jokes were being made about homosexuality and that you know
00:55:42.920we've apologized it was off camera what are you doing here but you know i will call that out and
00:55:51.220i have done and i've said that you shouldn't be that's completely unacceptable and that's what
00:55:55.620being an ally means is that you call out that behavior you know you stand up for something you
00:56:00.460know I've done often in meetings where I notice that someone's not had their say I'll make sure
00:56:05.920the person leading that meeting so you know draws out that person's opinion I'll say you know name
00:56:11.060the person or do you have any thoughts about you know that's what allyship is is about where I've
00:56:16.420enjoyed allyship uh in trying to you know the cause of getting more diversity inclusion in the
00:56:22.140legal profession corporate world is where I've I've partnered with you know white men because
00:56:27.960in some circles that partnership is really important right where you know opening doors
00:56:33.620for meetings to talk about these cultural issues that can happen in the workplace has only been
00:56:39.500possible because I've got a friend you know who's also an ally so it's you know he's put action
00:56:44.520behind it who knows the other senior partner at that firm it gives me a I suppose a bit of
00:56:50.620credibility, if you want to call it that, that we're on the same page, and we're driving the
00:56:55.140conversation together. It also means that there's less suspicion of what my motives might be, right?
00:57:00.220If I've actually allied with somebody who looks more like them, it's a joint effort then. So that's
00:57:07.220where allyship is really, really key. And that's why so much change is happening in some companies.
00:57:14.280You know, people sign up to things they can be doing, you know, actual day-to-day stuff they can
00:57:20.020be doing to drive this change and it has a real ripple effect across the whole organization
00:57:24.460well well i've got more questions mate i'm sure you have i'm getting i'm just getting warmed up
00:57:31.420no if you don't have anything i just wanted to ask a couple of more things if that's cool with
00:57:35.860you look i've loved this conversation and it's great and i wish i wish to god that when i'm on
00:57:41.460i don't know good morning britain or whatever it was you sitting there and we were having this
00:57:45.780conversation as opposed to i'm not going to name them but you know the usual people uh i just wish
00:57:50.800that was the conversation i wish this was the conversation we had in the mainstream because i
00:57:54.900think you're making good points i really do and i may or may not agree on everything but at least
00:58:00.100we're having a conversation right um i just think it's so important but one thing that's become
00:58:06.760quite contentious in recent times is unconscious bias training yes oh hello i've never believed in
00:58:14.880it I've never seen you know it's I'm so glad that if there's an area where I'm glad there's been a
00:58:23.840backlash I'm really glad unconscious bias training has been seen for what it is you know it's not as
00:58:31.140simple as that I see this as starting a conversation really I've seen magic happen from that start a
00:58:39.360conversation doing reverse mentoring you know in one firm it was a 50 something year old senior
00:58:44.920partner who's male and a black socio-economically you know deprived trainee solicitor female
00:58:50.060I partnered them you know paired them up as and the magic that happened you know she had
00:58:55.900misconceptions about him and vice versa together they came up with all sorts of solutions to drive
00:59:01.360you know things forward no amount of unconscious bias training was going to achieve that
00:59:06.520you know we need to sit down and start a conversation about these really difficult
00:59:12.020experiences I won't use the word lived anymore but by having conversations and actively listening
00:59:20.740which a lot of us don't do we're waiting to interrupt all the time you know we're just
00:59:25.180waiting to get our point across if you actively listen to that other person and listen to what
00:59:30.600they've been through you can find more common ground if they're willing to do the same for you
00:59:35.680I've seen incredible things happen so simple and yet we don't do it we don't do it enough
00:59:41.080so why do we persist with this unconscious bias training then if it doesn't work as you yeah as
00:59:46.920you've alluded to I guess it was sometimes seen as a quick fix right you bring someone in you pay
00:59:52.340them this amount of money they do it they run a session you can tick it off my approach takes
00:59:57.360longer I mean it does right you have to build trust mentality you've talked about you know but
01:00:02.380the reality is for for sustained change you need to invest the time but it's so worth it you know
01:00:09.360it really is and it is again it comes down to that quick change but isn't it also as well because
01:00:15.760it's about perceptions and perception is a reality you know look how tolerant we are we've had 32
01:00:20.680diversity trainings this month alone yeah yeah and for a lot of organizations who are you know
01:00:27.600looking at targets in that way you know the way they set out their targets is you've done this
01:00:33.060in this quarter my approach is harder to sort of quantify in that way right so I had to come up
01:00:40.680with different ways of gauging success you know hence reverse mentoring you know how many work
01:00:46.400experience schemes have you offered to year years nine and ten in the local schools you know these
01:00:51.140are the sorts of you know metrics I hate that word but you know that's what we're using in
01:00:55.440corporate circles. And that way you can measure in the same way. Companies like to have things to
01:01:01.320measure, right? They like to have figures and track things and so on. But I think we've been
01:01:06.500measuring the wrong things quite often. And I'm trying to change that mindset.