TRIGGERnometry - Why Britain Imports American Problems - Tomiwa Owolade

00:00:01.000 This kind of pessimistic narrative,

00:00:03.000 which we've mostly imported from America,

00:00:06.000 is simply inconsistent with reality.

00:00:10.000 I think it's indicative of a wider problem.

00:00:14.000 At the moment, in terms of culture,

00:00:17.000 America is the metropole and the UK is basically a colony. 0.57

00:00:22.000 There's this phrase that, again, we borrow from America,

00:00:25.000 which is, this is a country built, a nation of immigrants.

00:00:29.000 I've read British history. It's not a nation of immigrants. 1.00

00:00:32.000 It's not.

00:00:33.000 Why do we do that?

00:00:34.000 I think the reason why we do that is because we sort of

00:00:39.000 don't want to concede any point to the sort of anti-immigrant,

00:00:44.000 conservative or far-right, whatever you want to call them.

00:00:47.000 But I think the best way to do that is to do it on the basis of truth,

00:00:51.000 rather than on the basis of any sort of myth-making.

00:00:56.000 If you tell people enough times that they are the victims of racism,

00:01:02.000 they are the victims of oppression, they are the victims of discrimination,

00:01:07.000 they will inevitably see it everywhere.

00:01:10.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:22.000 I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:23.000 I'm Constantine Kisham.

00:01:24.000 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:29.000 Our brilliant guest today is a journalist and writer whose first book is called

00:01:35.000 This Is Not America, which is absolutely true. 1.00

00:01:38.000 This is why you're here, by the way.

00:01:39.000 Because I keep saying this and no one listens, right?

00:01:41.000 You're making this point now.

00:01:43.000 That's why you're here.

00:01:44.000 Let's talk about it.

00:01:45.000 But before we do, tell everybody, who are you, Tumi Oawolari?

00:01:48.000 What's been your journey through life?

00:01:50.000 How are you here?

00:01:51.000 Thank you very much for getting me on this program.

00:01:54.000 I've been a long-term listener and watcher of this show,

00:01:57.000 so it's a great privilege to be invited on.

00:02:00.000 As you said, I'm a writer.

00:02:02.000 I'm also a journalist.

00:02:03.000 I've written for various UK publications such as The New Statesman,

00:02:08.000 The Times, The Sunday Times, The Observer.

00:02:12.000 Before that, I worked as a tutor in a secondary school.

00:02:16.000 I used to teach English to kids that were struggling.

00:02:21.000 And I also did this during lockdown as well.

00:02:24.000 So I'm familiar with online teaching and the perils of that.

00:02:29.000 Before that, I was a master's student.

00:02:32.000 So I studied English for undergraduate and I did a master's as well in English.

00:02:37.000 And I thought about going into academia, being a lecturer, professor and so forth.

00:02:42.000 But I grew slightly disillusioned with academia.

00:02:45.000 I found the kind of orthodoxy that I witnessed in academia very stifling, very conformist.

00:02:52.000 And I also grew disillusioned with the academic style of writing.

00:02:56.000 I discovered that I prefer a more journalistic style of writing.

00:03:01.000 A writing that's more clear, more lucid, more concise.

00:03:04.000 So that's why I decided to do some freelance journalism on the side,

00:03:11.000 whilst also being a tutor in a secondary school after academia.

00:03:15.000 I was born in Nigeria.

00:03:17.000 And I moved to the UK when I was nine.

00:03:20.000 And I guess that's most of my story.

00:03:24.000 Yeah, absolutely.

00:03:25.000 And before we talk about the book, and I just think it's such an important message for us to get into.

00:03:30.000 You mentioned the, not the heterodoxy, quite the opposite, the orthodoxy in academia.

00:03:37.000 Yes.

00:03:38.000 What was it that you felt was stifling or sort of locked into a particular worldview?

00:03:43.000 So this actually connects to why I decided to write the book in the first place.

00:03:48.000 So a big part of the orthodoxy in academia was about social and cultural issues relating to race and identity.

00:03:59.000 So at the very start of the book, I explain why I decided to write the book in the first place, which is at UCL.

00:04:09.000 One of my, one of my, one of my, one of my alma matters, there was an open letter sent by the master's students at UCL to the English faculty,

00:04:20.000 accusing the English faculty of racism, because there were not that many black authors and black texts in the syllabus.

00:04:30.000 But in that letter, one thing struck me, which is that these UK based, mostly UK based students use the term BIPOC to describe the racism experienced by British, by ethnic minority British people in the UK.

00:04:49.000 And for those of you that don't know, BIPOC is an acronym that stands for Black Indigenous People of Colour.

00:04:58.000 Now it would make sense for somebody like Nick Griffin to talk about protecting the indigenous communities of the UK.

00:05:09.000 Nick Griffin, by the way, is a former far right politician.

00:05:12.000 Yeah, leader of the British National Party.

00:05:15.000 What I found confusing is why a 22 year old activist, left wing activist in London would use a term like indigenous.

00:05:29.000 Hitler was quite left wing. 0.84

00:05:32.000 So I was struck and I think it's illustrative, it's symptomatic of a wider problem, which is that when we think and talk about race and racism, we do it through an American perspective.

00:05:46.000 And what you mean is we download that and apply it to the British context.

00:05:49.000 Yeah, exactly, exactly.

00:05:51.000 Why is that?

00:05:52.000 Why is that?

00:05:53.000 Why is that?

00:05:54.000 Why do we do that?

00:05:55.000 Because surely we have lived the experience.

00:05:59.000 And that means we understand that things are different and the UK is different from America.

00:06:05.000 So why do we regurgitate the narratives without interrogating them in any shape or form?

00:06:11.000 I think it's indicative of a wider problem.

00:06:15.000 So it's not just about race.

00:06:18.000 Anyone that uses the internet will inevitably encounter American culture.

00:06:25.000 American culture influences the films we watch, the TV shows we watch, the music we listen to.

00:06:33.000 Therefore, it makes sense that it would also influence the way we look at politics as well in the UK.

00:06:39.000 So I think it's not just a race thing.

00:06:43.000 I think it's symptomatic of a wider problem, which is that at the moment, in terms of culture, America is the metropole and the UK is basically a colony.

00:06:56.000 I mean, it's a good point.

00:06:58.000 And also as well, lockdowns.

00:07:01.000 Of course.

00:07:02.000 The killing of George Floyd.

00:07:04.000 Yes, yes.

00:07:05.000 That must have had a huge impact on the way we talk about these subjects now.

00:07:08.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:07:09.000 I think lockdown played a key role as well because we were isolated and the only way that we could interact with other people was through the internet, was through social media.

00:07:21.000 So we became more dependent upon social media to develop relationships, to try to understand the world, basically.

00:07:31.000 And I think that's why it makes sense why the George Floyd protests accelerated the ways in which when we think about race and racism, we do it through an American perspective.

00:07:45.000 I think Rogan made this point actually the other day.

00:07:47.000 He gave us a shout out and he was talking about how the informational landscape is changing and he said trigonometry in that context.

00:07:55.000 Yes.

00:07:56.000 But I'm curious, before we talk about how Britain and America are different when it comes to race, which of course they are, I also feel like there's a lot of stuff going on at the moment where you're just going, like we keep being a dishonest about these issues, but also there's lots of other stuff going on.

00:08:13.000 So I'll give you an example. The BBC has just released a thing, which is called something like Been Here All Along or something, and it's basically trying to present the picture of Britain from 2000 years ago being massively populated with black people.

00:08:28.000 And when people pointed out how historically inaccurate this is, there's actually a quote from one of the producers basically saying, well, we've got to lie to make it work in the modern world.

00:08:57.980 We've got to make it work in the context or something. And so I never understood this. Like there's this phrase that again we borrow from America, which is, this is a nation of immigrants.

00:09:05.980 I mean, I've read British history. It's not a nation of immigrants.

00:09:09.980 It's not.

00:09:10.980 And I'm an immigrant. It doesn't make me feel better that we lie about this. Why do we do that?

00:09:15.980 I think the reason why we do that is because we sort of don't want to concede any point to the sort of anti-immigrant, conservative or far right, whatever you want to call them.

00:09:28.980 But I think the best way to do that is to do it on the basis of truth rather than on the basis of any sort of myth-making.

00:09:38.980 Right.

00:09:39.980 Because if we concede the truth to sinister, nefarious actors, we are actually doing a disservice to ethnic minority people, people from immigrant community backgrounds.

00:09:53.980 So I think we should definitely base it on the truth rather than trying to feather sort of respect for ethnic minority people on the basis of something which a lot of people without any kind of ideological bias will know to be completely dishonest.

00:10:17.980 And I was curious also what you made of the, there was a recent incident, as we said there, literally a couple of days ago, where a black woman didn't get a refund in a shop that's owned by a South Asian guy.

00:10:29.980 She basically tried to steal something. 1.00

00:10:32.980 He took it off her.

00:10:34.980 She started hitting him. 0.97

00:10:36.980 He fought back.

00:10:37.980 And now this guy's in hiding because he's part of the white supremacist. 0.97

00:10:41.980 The South Asian guy is a white supremacist. 0.83

00:10:43.980 And you're just going, what are any of you talking about? 1.00

00:10:47.980 Yeah, it's completely, yeah, it's ridiculous.

00:10:50.980 But I think that also illustrates why terms like BAME, B-A-M-E, is not really useful because it assumes that the experiences and the values of all ethnic minority people in the UK are the same when it's obviously not the case. 0.72

00:11:10.980 Asian people can be prejudiced against black people.

00:11:14.980 Black people can be prejudiced against Asian people.

00:11:17.980 And to just assume that any kind of sort of conflict between these groups is a consequence of white supremacy is extremely condescending to these groups as well.

00:11:30.980 Yeah, and it's also, it's just deeply weird.

00:11:36.980 It's deeply weird because you look at these people and you just think to themselves, what are you talking about?

00:11:44.980 It doesn't make sense when you look at where this happened.

00:11:49.980 It happened in Peckham.

00:11:51.980 And then for those people who've never been to Peckham...

00:11:54.980 Don't go.

00:11:55.980 Right, okay.

00:11:56.980 There's not a lot of white people there.

00:11:58.980 If you're going to look for white... 0.95

00:12:00.980 Don't go, but not for that reason. 1.00

00:12:01.980 It's just a shithole. 0.98

00:12:02.980 Yeah, exactly. 0.99

00:12:03.980 But you just go, you are not going to find a lot of white supremacy in Peckham.

00:12:08.980 Well, actually, there are some white people, but it's a certain kind of white people.

00:12:13.980 Yeah.

00:12:14.980 It's being gentrified.

00:12:15.980 So it's a sort of liberal, youngish, progressive type.

00:12:18.980 It's not the kind of white people you'd normally associate with white supremacy.

00:12:22.980 Yeah.

00:12:23.980 Yeah.

00:12:24.980 And this is it.

00:12:26.980 And I think this is really what we're talking about.

00:12:29.980 Where what we...

00:12:31.980 Is the people are living in a fictional world.

00:12:35.980 They're living in a world that they literally go...

00:12:39.980 They go online and they're being told that this world exists.

00:12:42.980 Yes.

00:12:43.980 And then they're living in this world.

00:12:45.980 And you go, but that is not reality in any shape or form.

00:12:49.980 Yes.

00:12:50.980 And no one's denying racism exists.

00:12:51.980 Of course it doesn't.

00:12:52.980 Yeah.

00:12:53.980 There are racist people and blah, blah, blah.

00:12:54.980 But that is not the experience of living in Peckham.

00:13:00.980 Yeah, exactly.

00:13:01.980 And I think that's one of the things that I try to get across in my writings is that all

00:13:06.980 too often when we talk about race and discrimination, it's done with...

00:13:12.980 It's done through a very abstract perspective.

00:13:15.980 It's done with a lot of theory, a lot of buzzwords, without any reference to the actual, to use

00:13:22.980 a fashionable term, lived experiences of ethnic minority people and also white British people

00:13:28.980 as well.

00:13:30.980 Because their experiences can't simply be reduced to being victims of racism.

00:13:36.980 And in fact, that kind of perspective to simply say that as a black person, as an Asian person, your experiences of living in the UK can be explained entirely through racism.

00:13:49.980 That's a completely, I think that's a profoundly damaging distortion of their actual experiences, the actual complex experiences.

00:14:00.980 And I think that also denigrates their humanity as well, to simply consider them as purely victims of racism rather than as complex, fully embodied people.

00:14:12.980 Because there are instances where you go, so take Windrush for example. 1.00

00:14:17.980 Of course, yes.

00:14:18.980 I'm not, I don't know how much of that is racist, but you could, but it's pretty obvious that these people, these immigrants at the time and British citizens were horrendously badly treated.

00:14:31.980 Yeah, of course.

00:14:32.980 Let's talk about that.

00:14:33.980 Let's talk about how we can ensure that doesn't happen.

00:14:35.980 Yes, yes, yes.

00:14:36.980 And I think Windrush is an excellent example because Windrush is something which is very much specific to a UK context.

00:14:44.980 You can't really translate the experience of Windrush to say America, for example, because you can't really call black Americans an immigrant community.

00:14:53.980 No.

00:14:54.980 Because the vast majority of black Americans are descendants from, descendants of enslaved Africans that were transported to America between the 17th and the 19th centuries.

00:15:06.980 In fact, the average black American can trace their ancestry further back than the average white American.

00:15:13.980 Because of course, most white Americans are descendants, not only from like these sorts of English founders of America, but also like successive waves of European immigration from the middle of the 19th century onwards. 0.57

00:15:29.980 So you can't really, so you can make the argument that black Americans are almost like an indigenous community to America, but you can't say the same with black British people. 0.86

00:15:42.980 Because the most, the vast majority of black British people are immigrants or the children, children of immigrants, not even from the Caribbean, because 25 years ago, the vast majority of black British people were black Caribbean people.

00:16:01.980 But over the past 25 years, there's been a massive influx of immigration from Africa, which means that the majority of black British people today are black Africans.

00:16:12.980 In fact, there are twice as many black African people as there are black Caribbean people.

00:16:17.980 But this isn't really incorporated into discussions of race and racism enough.

00:16:23.980 No, absolutely. And I was going to ask you about, you split your book into two sections, really.

00:16:30.980 Yeah, of course.

00:16:31.980 You say, this is America, and you talk about what America is.

00:16:33.980 Yeah, exactly.

00:16:34.980 And then most of the book is about this is Britain.

00:16:36.980 Yeah.

00:16:37.980 So what are some of the big differences?

00:16:39.980 Now, one of them you've just pointed out, which is the majority of black people in this country today are actually not the descendants of slaves.

00:16:46.980 Yeah, that's true.

00:16:47.980 Whereas in America, it's obviously the other way around.

00:16:49.980 Yeah.

00:16:50.980 What is different?

00:16:51.980 I think another key difference is that in the UK, we don't have that particular history of institutionalized segregation that America obviously has.

00:17:07.980 So in the UK, for example, interracial marriage has never been banned.

00:17:13.980 And in the UK, black people and Asian people have never been barred from voting.

00:17:21.980 So that particular historical legacy in America simply doesn't apply in the UK context.

00:17:30.980 I think another key difference is that in the UK, there is much more internal diversity within the black British population than there is in America, I would argue.

00:17:48.980 So in the UK, you've got black Caribbean people, black West African people, black East African people, and various other black communities.

00:18:01.980 So even to use a term like black British, we need to acknowledge that there is diversity within that term.

00:18:10.980 So in terms of education, for example, the experiences of black Caribbean people are very different to the experiences of black African people.

00:18:21.980 And from what I hear, you know, particularly at school, those two groups of kids may not get on that well.

00:18:26.980 And it's not because of white supremacy.

00:18:28.980 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:18:29.980 So in fact, it's changed now.

00:18:31.980 But when I was growing up, black Africans, recent immigrants in particular, were often looked down upon.

00:18:39.980 There was a term at school when I was growing up called freshie, to be called fresh, which means fresh off the boat.

00:18:46.980 Right.

00:18:47.980 Fresh is cool now, isn't it?

00:18:49.980 It's funny how things say.

00:18:50.980 It is cool now.

00:18:51.980 It is cool now.

00:18:52.980 And I think that's because of like things like Afro beats, which is a kind of popular West African music.

00:18:58.980 But when I was growing up, which wasn't too long ago, to be called fresh or freshie was used as an insult, often directed at black African immigrants or recent or like black African like people in general.

00:19:15.980 And I think one of the other key differences is that in terms of something like exclusion, black Caribbean pupils are more than twice as likely to be excluded from schools as black African people.

00:19:33.980 Black African people also have better GCSE grades, better A-level grades.

00:19:41.980 And I think acknowledging these differences is very important because if we genuinely care about the social inequalities in our society, we need to recognize these specific differences rather than making generalizations based on race.

00:20:04.980 And I think I should also emphasize that when I say black Caribbean pupils, I'm specifically referring to black Caribbean boys.

00:20:12.980 So black Caribbean girls tend to do much better in terms of education than black Caribbean boys. 0.99

00:20:18.980 But I should also acknowledge the fact that the ethnic minority group that does least well in education are the Roma, traveler, gypsy communities.

00:20:34.980 They tend to do least well and they tend to do least well and they're often sort of seen as white.

00:20:39.980 So it shows that when we try to, when we, when we think about inequalities in education, simply looking at it through the lens of race is completely inadequate.

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00:21:19.980 Wouldn't happen to me, mate.

00:21:20.980 Why not?

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00:22:54.980 It's such a good point.

00:22:57.980 I always remember when we were talking about this with Tony Saul.

00:23:01.980 And in preparation for the interview, I read his report.

00:23:05.980 And the education section I found particularly fascinating.

00:23:08.980 One of the highest achieving subgroups in all of education is West African girls.

00:23:13.980 They are crushing it.

00:23:15.980 Yeah, they are.

00:23:16.980 And this is what frustrates me because all we do is talk about the negatives.

00:23:19.980 Why can't we celebrate them?

00:23:21.980 Yeah.

00:23:22.980 Going, you're brilliant.

00:23:23.980 Why can't we go, that's amazing.

00:23:25.980 Or celebrate British Chinese pupils, British Indian pupils.

00:23:29.980 They also do extremely well in terms of education as well.

00:23:32.980 So this kind of pessimistic narrative, which we've,

00:23:37.980 mostly imported from America, is simply inconsistent with reality, basically.

00:23:44.980 And it's also the message that it's sending out to these kids.

00:23:48.980 Yeah, of course.

00:23:49.980 Which is, you're never going to succeed.

00:23:50.980 You're never going to achieve anything.

00:23:53.980 Racism is everywhere.

00:23:54.980 Yeah.

00:23:55.980 And then you look at the actual stats and it doesn't bear any relation to the truth.

00:24:01.980 Of course.

00:24:02.980 Of course.

00:24:03.980 Yeah.

00:24:04.980 That kind of paralyzing fatalism.

00:24:07.980 Exactly.

00:24:08.980 It's not good for the kind of self-confidence that we need to inculcate in whether black or Asian kids. 0.99

00:24:18.980 Because if you tell people enough times that they are the victims of racism, they are the victims of oppression, they are the victims of discrimination, they will inevitably see it everywhere.

00:24:35.980 That kind of self-reinforcing mechanism, they will completely imbibe it.

00:24:40.980 And they would be unable to actually acknowledge the fact that, no, this is not the case.

00:24:48.980 Of course, there's still racism in the UK.

00:24:51.980 But to define the experiences of black or Asian people entirely through the perspective of racism or race is completely inimical to what we should try to imbibe in them, which is the truth, basically. 0.99

00:25:11.980 And I think that that is one of the key aspects of my writing.

00:25:15.980 I'm concerned with what is actually going on, whether something is actually true or not.

00:25:20.980 Well, that's the most important thing, because that then allows you, if you're talking about policy or whatever, to make the right decisions.

00:25:26.980 Yes.

00:25:27.980 But I was curious at the individual level, do you think that this very simplistic, victimhood-driven worldview, do you think that is landing with people, you know, you're in your sort of mid to late 20s, your generation and younger?

00:25:41.980 Do you think that young people from ethnic minority backgrounds are being persuaded to see themselves in this way, are being persuaded to think that, you know, life here is terrible?

00:25:52.980 Sure.

00:25:53.980 Do you think they are?

00:25:54.980 It's fixed back.

00:25:55.980 It's fixed back.

00:25:56.980 So I think amongst some young ethnic minority people, they do definitely imbibe that kind of message.

00:26:03.980 And the ones that do sort of imbibe that kind of message are the ones that are often invited on to TV shows and invited on to write newspaper columns and magazine articles.

00:26:16.980 And the ones that don't really imbibe that kind of message just get on with their lives, basically.

00:26:22.980 They're not really political in that sense.

00:26:25.980 They just get on with their lives and just...

00:26:27.980 Go and get a banking job.

00:26:29.980 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:26:31.980 But I think it's great that you're here because I do think it's really important that people who don't imbibe that narrative don't just go and get a job.

00:26:42.980 Yeah, yeah.

00:26:43.980 You know what I mean?

00:26:44.980 Because they need to speak, you know?

00:26:46.980 Yeah, yeah, of course.

00:26:47.980 And it's good to have you speaking about it.

00:26:49.980 But I'm curious, you mentioned the disparities between different groups.

00:26:52.980 Sure.

00:26:53.980 And this is the question that when it comes down to this issue, no one really wants to dig into, honestly.

00:26:59.980 Yeah.

00:27:00.980 Why do different groups perform differently?

00:27:03.980 If, let's say, West African girls are doing the best in education, we can conclude from that that whatever role racism plays in people's outcomes, it's not inhibiting them as much as it's inhibiting someone else.

00:27:18.980 So why would that be?

00:27:19.980 Why would Caribbean boys be getting excluded at a rate that's crazy compared to everybody else?

00:27:24.980 And no one wants to talk about things like culture and all sorts of other.

00:27:28.980 Yeah, family formation, family structure.

00:27:31.980 And class as well.

00:27:32.980 And class.

00:27:33.980 Yeah.

00:27:34.980 So tell us about that.

00:27:35.980 What are the differences?

00:27:36.980 Yeah, yeah.

00:27:37.980 So it's all of those things.

00:27:38.980 It's family structure, it's culture, it's class.

00:27:43.980 So many West African immigrant communities, they, most of them came, as I said earlier, over the past 25, 30 years.

00:27:54.980 And they've arrived from independent African countries.

00:27:59.980 So with the Windrush generation, a lot of them arrived from Caribbean colonies.

00:28:05.980 So they were basically going to the motherland, essentially.

00:28:09.980 Whereas with recent African immigrant communities, they've arrived from independent African countries.

00:28:16.980 And many of them were already university educated in Africa.

00:28:22.980 So when they've arrived in the UK, there is that particular expectation that they want their kids to be university, at least university educated as well.

00:28:35.980 So there is that attitude of emphasizing the importance of education.

00:28:41.980 Education is absolutely critical to the way that many of these West African families conceive of themselves.

00:28:50.980 Things like education, things like religion, things like a strong family network, all of them absolutely critical.

00:29:00.980 And I think that's part of the reason why, for example, many West African families that live in southeast London are absolutely desperate to get their kids to be sent to the grammar schools in Kent.

00:29:15.980 Because if you go to any grammar school in Kent, one of the striking things is the number of West African kids in these grammar schools.

00:29:25.980 And I think that's because of that particular culture of educational aspiration.

00:29:30.980 Yeah, look, and we all know this, but why is it that we can't talk about it?

00:29:35.980 Why can't we have a simple, frank and honest conversation?

00:29:39.980 Because race might play a factor, but it's certainly not all of the equation.

00:29:44.980 Yeah, because I think when anyone makes this point, people would counter by saying, well, you're sort of victim blaming.

00:29:53.980 You're saying, oh, this is the fault of black Caribbean people.

00:29:56.980 This is the fault of black Caribbean culture. 1.00

00:29:59.980 And people also say, oh, you're denying the existence of racism.

00:30:03.980 When in fact, what I'm saying and what many people are saying is that, of course, racism might be a factor.

00:30:10.980 And of course, racism still exists in the UK.

00:30:13.980 What we're arguing is that we should not look at racism as the only factor.

00:30:18.980 We should consider other things because it simply doesn't make sense to think that race is the only thing that shapes things like educational outcomes.

00:30:28.980 Because if it did, we would not be able to explain the differences between various black groups.

00:30:35.980 Tom, here's a particularly unpleasant question.

00:30:38.980 But it needs to be asked, if your kid gets expelled, isn't it your fault?

00:30:44.980 What, you mean the fault of the parents?

00:30:45.980 You thought of the parents?

00:30:46.980 No, no, your fault.

00:30:47.980 All the children in the country that get expelled, isn't that because you didn't tutor them properly?

00:30:52.980 Yeah, but as someone who taught for many years, you know, it takes a lot for a kid to get expelled.

00:30:59.980 Increasingly so.

00:31:00.980 And something has gone wrong and somebody needs to take the blame for it.

00:31:06.980 Yeah, yeah.

00:31:07.980 An individual agency does matter.

00:31:10.980 But I think that we should also look at wider problems, wider social.

00:31:16.980 So if you've, say you're a young kid and you grew up without any sort of father figure, and you grew up in a place where there is mass poverty, in a place where the only role models in your society are basically criminals.

00:31:35.980 Or like gang people that are involved in gang communities.

00:31:39.980 If you grew up within that particular environment, it would take a lot of individual willpower to be studious, to be focused on trying to better yourselves.

00:31:54.980 So I think we should not underestimate the extent to which peer pressure plays a role, because peer pressure is one of the most powerful social forces.

00:32:05.980 And it doesn't just apply to this situation.

00:32:07.980 It applies to many other situations.

00:32:09.980 So even though I do acknowledge that individual agency is important, I think we should also consider other wider social factors as well.

00:32:19.980 Well, absolutely. I mean, environment is so important.

00:32:21.980 Yeah, exactly.

00:32:22.980 One of our previous studios was in East London, and it was like an oasis.

00:32:28.980 It was a nice building in the middle of a big council estate.

00:32:32.980 Sure.

00:32:33.980 Like a project in America, the projects.

00:32:35.980 And I remember Francis and I during, this was during COVID, we'd like go out for a walk.

00:32:39.980 And just the environment itself was so depressing.

00:32:42.980 I was like, if I lived here, I would be a different person.

00:32:45.980 Yeah.

00:32:46.980 You know what I mean?

00:32:47.980 So environment makes a big difference.

00:32:49.980 And your point about father figures and all of that is really true as well.

00:32:54.980 Yeah.

00:32:55.980 I think.

00:32:56.980 Yeah.

00:32:57.980 Absolutely, man.

00:32:58.980 The environment is huge.

00:32:59.980 It is really impactful.

00:33:00.980 Yeah.

00:33:01.980 And I think that that is something that we need to acknowledge, which is that the environment of black people, I think minority people in general are not all the same.

00:33:13.980 And it's a bit weird to sort of consider them to be the same, because the environment of white people isn't the same as well. 0.60

00:33:22.980 So why should we assume that the environment of ethnic minority people would be the same? 0.77

00:33:26.980 Isn't it a bit racist to go, you're black, therefore you are going to behave exactly like this, have these opinions, and probably be expelled from school?

00:33:41.980 I'm always reluctant to describe something as racist, but it is definitely patronizing and it is definitely counterproductive, especially if you consider yourself to be an avowed anti-racist to make generalizations based on race in that way.

00:33:59.980 I think it shows an extreme lack of curiosity on your part to not wonder the differences, whether that be cultural, socioeconomic differences in terms of religion, for example, between these various racial or ethnic groups.

00:34:19.980 Sorry.

00:34:20.980 Go for it.

00:34:21.980 Yeah, I was just going to say, you alluded to this earlier about which black voices, this is a very popular phrase now.

00:34:27.980 Of course, yes, yes.

00:34:28.980 As if they're not people, they just have their voice.

00:34:29.980 Yeah, of course.

00:34:30.980 Which black voices get promoted in the media?

00:34:33.980 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:34:34.980 And as you probably know, I've had my classes with some of these people on TV and stuff.

00:34:40.980 And it always seems to be the crazier...

00:34:44.980 The more strident ones.

00:34:45.980 The more strident is perhaps a kinder way to describe it.

00:34:49.980 The people who are really very, very extreme about what they believe.

00:34:53.980 Of course.

00:34:54.980 And I just wonder whether they're representative of the average black person because that's not been my experience.

00:35:00.980 Yeah, yeah.

00:35:01.980 And do you know what?

00:35:02.980 The media brainwashing is so powerful.

00:35:05.980 We get so many black people coming up to us saying how much they enjoy the show.

00:35:09.980 Yeah, yeah.

00:35:10.980 And obviously, this has been part of the message of the show.

00:35:11.980 Of course, of course.

00:35:12.980 That being a victim is not good for you and all of that.

00:35:14.980 Yeah.

00:35:15.980 And even I, knowing that, every now and again, I'm a little bit surprised.

00:35:20.980 I'm like, oh, wow.

00:35:21.980 A black person likes us.

00:35:22.980 Do you know what I mean?

00:35:23.980 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:35:24.980 Because...

00:35:25.980 I know that feeling.

00:35:26.980 This thing is so powerful in our minds.

00:35:27.980 Yeah, exactly.

00:35:28.980 And I just...

00:35:29.980 I wonder if you agree with me that I...

00:35:31.980 Well, forget about agreeing with me.

00:35:33.980 I wonder how representative you think the media conversation is to what ordinary black and brown and whatever people are sort of talking around the dinner table.

00:35:44.980 It's not representative at all, would be my answer to that.

00:35:47.980 Yeah.

00:35:48.980 Because I think the actual experiences of black people are so diverse that to even use a term like black voice or the black community does a massive disservice to those different values, those different points of views, those different experiences.

00:36:14.980 So I think, and the kinds of things as well that black people often discuss, the kind of values that black people often espouse are often counter to the kind of values that many of these self-appointed black pundits or intellectuals or whatever you want to call them, what they express.

00:36:38.980 Because I think one of the things about many black people in the UK, I'm thinking in particular of many black African communities, is the extent to which religion plays a pivotal role in how they see themselves.

00:36:55.980 And the kind of cultural or social conservatism, which is implied by that, is not something that we often discuss.

00:37:06.980 Well, they don't have pride flags ever.

00:37:09.980 Yeah.

00:37:10.980 It's not something that is often discussed because that would lead to many awkward conversations.

00:37:18.980 And in fact, one thing I want to emphasize is that London is the most religious place in the UK.

00:37:28.980 Really?

00:37:29.980 And London is the most...

00:37:30.980 Yeah.

00:37:31.980 And by the way, acceptance of LGBT...

00:37:33.980 It's the most conservative.

00:37:34.980 It's the most conservative in that respect.

00:37:36.980 Yeah.

00:37:37.980 And it's because of ethnic minorities. 0.84

00:37:40.980 Well, religious.

00:37:41.980 You have a different set of values.

00:37:42.980 Exactly.

00:37:43.980 Exactly.

00:37:44.980 Yeah.

00:37:45.980 And it's not just like the black or even Asian Muslims. 0.85

00:37:48.980 It's also like Eastern European immigrants as well, who often tends to be quite Catholic as well in terms of their religious background.

00:37:56.980 So that's why there is that kind of tension, which is that in the most multicultural parts of the country, you also get the most religious sensibilities which are expressed.

00:38:13.980 And yet, at the same time, the white middle class liberal expects all of these people to vote Labour and to have deeply progressive views.

00:38:23.980 But they do though.

00:38:24.980 This is the question I was going to ask you.

00:38:26.980 Yeah, they do.

00:38:27.980 Many of them do.

00:38:28.980 Why do big cities then, and it's not just London obviously, but why do all the big cities, and you see it here and in America, one of the uniting factors is they're always consistently left wing.

00:38:38.980 Yeah.

00:38:39.980 Which is interesting given what you're saying.

00:38:41.980 Yeah.

00:38:42.980 How do you explain that?

00:38:43.980 I think it's just a kind of political tribalism, essentially, rather than any sort of genuine consideration of the policies and the values that are embodied by any particular party.

00:39:00.980 So I think with voting preferences, it's often based on vibes, it's often based on any sort of pre-intellectual affiliation, rather than any genuine consideration of what the parties actually stand for.

00:39:18.980 Do you think part of it is also as well that, you know, if you all come from an ethnic minority, that automatically means that you are in the minority. 0.73

00:39:30.980 Yeah, yeah.

00:39:31.980 And therefore, you are going to, you do not want to stand out as much because you don't want to be alienated from your tribe, whatever your tribe may be, by being conservative or saying, hey guys, I think this commentator is actually talking nonsense.

00:39:48.980 I think that is a part of it.

00:39:51.980 But I also think there's another striking dimension to discussions about diversity and politics.

00:39:57.980 So one of the interesting things about the UK is that in the Conservative Party, there are many prominent Conservative politicians that come from an Asian background, including our current Prime Minister, Mr. Rishi Sunak.

00:40:14.980 But I think one dimension to this hasn't been spoken enough about, which is that many of these prominent Asian Conservative politicians didn't arrive directly from Asia.

00:40:30.980 They came through the roots of East Africa.

00:40:33.980 And I think it makes sense why their families espouse conservative points of views.

00:40:42.980 Because if you come from, if your family comes from an East African country where they were basically kicked out by the government.

00:40:54.980 They were like the Jews of East Africa. 1.00

00:40:55.980 Yeah, they were basically kicked out because they were considered parasites.

00:41:00.980 If you come from that particular background, it would make sense why you would not trust the government to solve all the issues in society.

00:41:08.980 It would make sense why you wouldn't trust the state.

00:41:11.980 It would make sense why you would emphasize the importance of family, the importance of individual striving, individual aspiration, if you come from that particular background.

00:41:22.980 And I think it does make sense why people like Rishi Sunak and the other prominent Conservative Asian politicians are Conservative because of that particular background.

00:41:38.980 And I think it also makes sense why somebody like Kemi Badenak, who's also a very prominent Conservative politician from a West African background,

00:41:49.980 because even though she was born in the UK, she actually grew up in Nigeria.

00:41:54.980 And when she was growing up in Nigeria, Nigeria was a military dictatorship.

00:41:59.980 So it would make sense why she's got many positive views about the UK.

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00:44:04.980 What have I told you about improvising?

00:44:06.980 It's in the script!

00:44:07.980 Unbelievable.

00:44:08.980 It's really interesting that you bring up people like Kemi and conservative politicians.

00:44:15.980 Yes.

00:44:16.980 And the thing that I have always found very troubling about the way ethnic minority people, in particular, 1.00

00:44:23.980 a certain subsection of ethnic minority people discuss these figures, is that they are a traitor to their race.

00:44:31.980 Yeah.

00:44:32.980 And that, to me, just seems…

00:44:34.980 It's racist.

00:44:35.980 Yes.

00:44:36.980 Oh, that is racist.

00:44:37.980 I wouldn't use racist.

00:44:38.980 That is racist.

00:44:39.980 That is definitely racist.

00:44:40.980 And it's something that some people have levelled against me as well.

00:44:45.980 So, like, anyone that deviates from that particular orthodoxy is viewed as a traitor and is demonised in that way,

00:44:57.980 just because they disagree with the view that racism doesn't explain everything in society.

00:45:06.980 It's completely absurd.

00:45:07.980 Well, I'll see you and I'll raise you a controversial issue because it's something I talked about in my book,

00:45:12.980 but I'd be curious to get your take on it, which is slavery.

00:45:16.980 And I find the way that people in Britain talk about slavery is just like…

00:45:22.980 I'm just like, what?

00:45:23.980 How are we talking about it in this way?

00:45:25.980 Because people everywhere throughout history had slaves and practiced slavery.

00:45:30.980 Now, admittedly, the transatlantic slave trade, because the Brits were the most technologically sophisticated nation in the world,

00:45:36.980 they could transport slaves across oceans, etc.

00:45:40.980 Sure.

00:45:41.980 But broadly speaking, all big empires always had slaves and used them, right?

00:45:44.980 Yeah, yeah.

00:45:45.980 And the British were the first people, one of the very first big empires,

00:45:49.980 in fact, the first empire to end slavery and committed a lot of blood and treasure and so on to doing it.

00:45:55.980 But we have this unique obsession with it as some kind of, like, uniquely evil thing that people in this country did.

00:46:02.980 Or colonialism, more generally.

00:46:04.980 Yeah.

00:46:05.980 Right.

00:46:06.980 And you're going, well…

00:46:07.980 Yeah.

00:46:08.980 And it's interesting because I went to the Museum of Slavery in Liverpool.

00:46:10.980 Great museum, except they don't tell you who captured the slaves.

00:46:14.980 Maybe we should look into that as well.

00:46:16.980 Do you know what I mean?

00:46:17.980 Yeah, of course.

00:46:18.980 What do you make of the way that we talk about that issue?

00:46:20.980 Yeah, I find discussions around slavery and colonialism extremely reductive.

00:46:26.980 Because, as you rightly say, Constantine, slavery is a part of every historical civilization and society.

00:46:38.980 It makes sense why we would try to understand various aspects of slavery.

00:46:44.980 Absolutely.

00:46:45.980 And try to understand whether those legacies still affect contemporary society.

00:46:51.980 But to focus almost exclusively on slavery, where, for instance, there are twice as many Asian people in the UK as there are black people.

00:47:06.980 And it's not clear to me how the transatlantic slave trade, for example, explains their own historical experiences.

00:47:19.980 And in the case of colonialism, of course, there are many terrible things that the British did under the auspices of colonialism.

00:47:28.980 But to simply view colonialism as just a succession of evil acts, to sort of view colonialism through the perspective of domination, I think is also historically provincial.

00:47:45.980 Really, that's interesting, because I've never taken the argument that far.

00:47:49.980 Okay.

00:47:50.980 But I guess it sounds like what you're saying is colonialism also has benefits.

00:47:54.980 Not benefits, but it was a complex thing.

00:47:57.980 So, for example, an aspect of colonialism which isn't really acknowledged enough is the aspects of the missionaries.

00:48:10.980 So, the reason why, for example, many West African leaders became anti-colonial in the first place was because many of them were educated in schools by missionaries.

00:48:29.980 So, in a paradoxical sense, there are certain aspects of colonialism that sort of fueled the seeds that ended up undermining colonialism in the first place.

00:48:42.980 And these missionary schools were, of course, Christian.

00:48:49.980 And many of the values that these post-colonial leaders imbibed in these schools, values such as opposition to injustice of any kind, they came from these missionary teachers.

00:49:07.980 So, in a sense, colonialism was paradoxical in that sense.

00:49:14.980 I'm talking about British colonialism because of that, which is not to underplay or to underestimate the many evils perpetrated by colonizing powers or British colonizing powers in particular.

00:49:28.980 It's just to say that there are nuances and there are complexities within that as well.

00:49:34.980 So, you're saying we're the good guys, basically.

00:49:38.980 But, you know, there was one, I was watching this program, it's actually a really good program, one of the few good programs the BBC does, called Who Do You Think You Are?

00:49:46.980 Yes.

00:49:47.980 And there was this beautifully, unintentionally hilarious moment where they got one of these celebrities, I can't remember who it was, black lady, and they were talking about her ancestor who was a slave.

00:49:59.980 Yes.

00:50:00.980 And obviously she was very upset by this, understandably so.

00:50:02.980 Yes.

00:50:03.980 And then she went, well, this slave won his freedom.

00:50:05.980 She was like, oh, marvellous, that's so good.

00:50:07.980 And then they went, and then he went on to own slaves.

00:50:10.980 Oof.

00:50:11.980 And she was absolutely mortified.

00:50:14.980 Yeah.

00:50:15.980 And it was, to me, it was this, it was funny in a way because it was like, it's not simple.

00:50:22.980 Yeah, yeah.

00:50:23.980 And this idea that we're presented with.

00:50:25.980 Yeah, yeah.

00:50:26.980 And this, how can I put it?

00:50:29.980 Reductive.

00:50:30.980 Reductive points, yeah.

00:50:31.980 Reductive view of history.

00:50:32.980 Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah.

00:50:34.980 It's nonsensical.

00:50:35.980 Yeah, yeah.

00:50:36.980 And I think that kind of view of history as well also explains why there is this view that there is some sort of universal black identity, that black people around the world all share the same values and the same beliefs and the same outlook.

00:50:52.980 And this is completely wrong from my own particular experience as well.

00:50:57.980 So, as I said at the very start, I was born in Nigeria. 0.71

00:51:02.980 And in Nigeria, over 99% of the population is black. 0.51

00:51:06.980 So…

00:51:07.980 You're saying you don't have diversity in Nigeria?

00:51:09.980 Yeah, not…

00:51:10.980 Have you not been told diversity is their strength?

00:51:12.980 Yeah.

00:51:13.980 Not racial diversity, other types of diversity.

00:51:16.980 So, of course, race is not at the forefront of the minds of the ordinary Nigerian.

00:51:23.980 And race is not one of the factors that divide society.

00:51:28.980 Other factors such as ethnic tribal group, religion, region or geography, those are the things that shape the divisions within Nigerian society.

00:51:39.980 And this became evident to me when, last year, my brother was getting married and my brother lives in America.

00:51:50.980 And he was getting married to an African American woman.

00:51:54.980 So, a woman whose ancestors were enslaved Africans. 0.92

00:51:58.980 And she brought along a lot of her family members and friends to Nigeria.

00:52:05.980 And I assume that many of these black Americans expected a kind of homecoming, a kind of return of the prodigal son or daughter or whatever.

00:52:16.980 But the striking thing is that what struck many of these Nigerians was not the fact that these black Americans were black.

00:52:26.980 It was the fact that these black Americans were Americans.

00:52:30.980 So, the American-ness of them was the most striking thing to the Nigerians. 1.00

00:52:37.980 Which I think just goes to illustrate that race is not at the forefront of the minds of many African people themselves.

00:52:46.980 Other things might shape the way that they look at black Americans, black British people and black people from across the rest of the world.

00:52:55.980 So, what you're saying is, and this is very controversial, is that people's skin color doesn't determine how they act and behave and think.

00:53:01.980 I mean, that's incredible, man.

00:53:03.980 Such a radical point to be.

00:53:04.980 This is a radical idea.

00:53:05.980 Radical idea.

00:53:06.980 Listen, it's a great book and it's great chatting to you as we start to move towards the end of the interview.

00:53:12.980 What would be your message to young people growing up in this country who have been, you know, they've had this stuff shoved at them from every social media and media and TV and whatever.

00:53:27.980 How should people think about, you know, being from a minority background in this country?

00:53:33.980 You know, look, everyone's got a different experience.

00:53:35.980 Yeah, of course.

00:53:36.980 What are some of the important things do you think that people should take away when they're being presented with, as you talk about in the book, a very Americanized, downloaded from Hollywood sort of narrative?

00:53:46.980 Yeah.

00:53:47.980 What's a helpful way to think about, you know, race relations in this country and so on?

00:53:53.980 By going to their neighbors, by speaking to their friends, by observing what's going on in their local community, their cities, their towns, the wider country.

00:54:07.980 Simply by looking at each individual on their own terms, rather than through the perspective of their racial background, whatever that might be, or through any kind of assumption based on race or ethnicity.

00:54:25.980 It's by acknowledging that each person is both rooted in their own particular context, their own particular environments, but also at the same time, each person is endowed with a certain kind of indivisible moral dignity, a certain kind of universal moral dignity.

00:54:50.980 And they should be looked at through that perspective as well, rather than any kind of abstract ideas about what it means to be black, what it means to be ethnic.

00:55:00.980 He's really radical. He's saying you should treat people on the content of their characters.

00:55:02.980 Yeah, not the colour of their skin.

00:55:04.980 Yeah, it's weird.

00:55:05.980 Yeah, it is.

00:55:06.980 It's outdated and frankly…

00:55:08.980 Who said that?

00:55:09.980 Yeah.

00:55:10.980 We don't care about that. 0.96

00:55:11.980 Some kind of race traitor. 1.00

00:55:13.980 Yeah, some race traitor. 1.00

00:55:14.980 A race traitor. 0.98

00:55:16.980 There will be somebody who thinks Martin Luther King Jr. is a race traitor. 0.58

00:55:20.980 Yeah, absolutely.

00:55:21.980 There probably are.

00:55:22.980 Yeah, you know.

00:55:23.980 But look, it's been a wonderful…

00:55:25.980 It's been great.

00:55:26.980 The book is called This Is Not America.

00:55:27.980 Make sure to check it out.

00:55:28.980 And the final question is…

00:55:30.980 Not the final question, because we're going to go to locals.

00:55:32.980 As we always do.

00:55:33.980 But before we go to locals.

00:55:35.980 What's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be?

00:55:37.980 Could it be on anything?

00:55:38.980 Anything at all.

00:55:39.980 Anything you want.

00:55:40.980 I think one issue is, and it's something I've been recently thinking about, is the…

00:55:46.980 I think we should be talking more about the negative impact of pornography on young men.

00:55:53.980 So one striking thing I've noticed is that many of my young male friends are being shown adverts, sort of advertising Viagra.

00:56:06.980 Really?

00:56:07.980 Which…

00:56:08.980 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:56:09.980 And this is something that…

00:56:11.980 Because erectile dysfunction, which is something we associate with older men, there's been a recent massive spike amongst younger men.

00:56:20.980 Pun intended.

00:56:23.980 And…

00:56:24.980 Definitely.

00:56:25.980 And I think that…

00:56:27.980 I don't know if pornography is definitely the factor that's inspiring, influencing that.

00:56:34.980 But I think it might well be.

00:56:37.980 And I think this…

00:56:38.980 This is, of course, a very awkward conversation to have because it speaks to something that's very intimate.

00:56:45.980 But I think it's…

00:56:46.980 I think…

00:56:47.980 In the future, I think the negative deleterious effects of online pornography is something that will be a major social and policy question.

00:56:59.980 Very interesting.

00:57:00.980 Well, appreciate you coming on the show.

00:57:02.980 Join us over on Locals where we continue the conversation with your questions and we'll probably have a few more of our own.

00:57:08.980 See you there.

00:57:09.980 Is it possible to discuss race without also discussing class?

TRIGGERnometry - October 01, 2023

Why Britain Imports American Problems - Tomiwa Owolade

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