00:03:38.000What was it that you felt was stifling or sort of locked into a particular worldview?
00:03:43.000So this actually connects to why I decided to write the book in the first place.
00:03:48.000So a big part of the orthodoxy in academia was about social and cultural issues relating to race and identity.
00:03:59.000So at the very start of the book, I explain why I decided to write the book in the first place, which is at UCL.
00:04:09.000One of my, one of my, one of my, one of my alma matters, there was an open letter sent by the master's students at UCL to the English faculty,
00:04:20.000accusing the English faculty of racism, because there were not that many black authors and black texts in the syllabus.
00:04:30.000But in that letter, one thing struck me, which is that these UK based, mostly UK based students use the term BIPOC to describe the racism experienced by British, by ethnic minority British people in the UK.
00:04:49.000And for those of you that don't know, BIPOC is an acronym that stands for Black Indigenous People of Colour.
00:04:58.000Now it would make sense for somebody like Nick Griffin to talk about protecting the indigenous communities of the UK.
00:05:09.000Nick Griffin, by the way, is a former far right politician.
00:05:12.000Yeah, leader of the British National Party.
00:05:15.000What I found confusing is why a 22 year old activist, left wing activist in London would use a term like indigenous.
00:05:32.000So I was struck and I think it's illustrative, it's symptomatic of a wider problem, which is that when we think and talk about race and racism, we do it through an American perspective.
00:05:46.000And what you mean is we download that and apply it to the British context.
00:06:18.000Anyone that uses the internet will inevitably encounter American culture.
00:06:25.000American culture influences the films we watch, the TV shows we watch, the music we listen to.
00:06:33.000Therefore, it makes sense that it would also influence the way we look at politics as well in the UK.
00:06:39.000So I think it's not just a race thing.
00:06:43.000I think it's symptomatic of a wider problem, which is that at the moment, in terms of culture, America is the metropole and the UK is basically a colony.
00:07:09.000I think lockdown played a key role as well because we were isolated and the only way that we could interact with other people was through the internet, was through social media.
00:07:21.000So we became more dependent upon social media to develop relationships, to try to understand the world, basically.
00:07:31.000And I think that's why it makes sense why the George Floyd protests accelerated the ways in which when we think about race and racism, we do it through an American perspective.
00:07:45.000I think Rogan made this point actually the other day.
00:07:47.000He gave us a shout out and he was talking about how the informational landscape is changing and he said trigonometry in that context.
00:07:56.000But I'm curious, before we talk about how Britain and America are different when it comes to race, which of course they are, I also feel like there's a lot of stuff going on at the moment where you're just going, like we keep being a dishonest about these issues, but also there's lots of other stuff going on.
00:08:13.000So I'll give you an example. The BBC has just released a thing, which is called something like Been Here All Along or something, and it's basically trying to present the picture of Britain from 2000 years ago being massively populated with black people.
00:08:28.000And when people pointed out how historically inaccurate this is, there's actually a quote from one of the producers basically saying, well, we've got to lie to make it work in the modern world.
00:08:57.980We've got to make it work in the context or something. And so I never understood this. Like there's this phrase that again we borrow from America, which is, this is a nation of immigrants.
00:09:05.980I mean, I've read British history. It's not a nation of immigrants.
00:09:10.980And I'm an immigrant. It doesn't make me feel better that we lie about this. Why do we do that?
00:09:15.980I think the reason why we do that is because we sort of don't want to concede any point to the sort of anti-immigrant, conservative or far right, whatever you want to call them.
00:09:28.980But I think the best way to do that is to do it on the basis of truth rather than on the basis of any sort of myth-making.
00:09:39.980Because if we concede the truth to sinister, nefarious actors, we are actually doing a disservice to ethnic minority people, people from immigrant community backgrounds.
00:09:53.980So I think we should definitely base it on the truth rather than trying to feather sort of respect for ethnic minority people on the basis of something which a lot of people without any kind of ideological bias will know to be completely dishonest.
00:10:17.980And I was curious also what you made of the, there was a recent incident, as we said there, literally a couple of days ago, where a black woman didn't get a refund in a shop that's owned by a South Asian guy.
00:10:29.980She basically tried to steal something.
00:10:50.980But I think that also illustrates why terms like BAME, B-A-M-E, is not really useful because it assumes that the experiences and the values of all ethnic minority people in the UK are the same when it's obviously not the case.
00:11:10.980Asian people can be prejudiced against black people.
00:11:14.980Black people can be prejudiced against Asian people.
00:11:17.980And to just assume that any kind of sort of conflict between these groups is a consequence of white supremacy is extremely condescending to these groups as well.
00:11:30.980Yeah, and it's also, it's just deeply weird.
00:11:36.980It's deeply weird because you look at these people and you just think to themselves, what are you talking about?
00:11:44.980It doesn't make sense when you look at where this happened.
00:13:30.980Because their experiences can't simply be reduced to being victims of racism.
00:13:36.980And in fact, that kind of perspective to simply say that as a black person, as an Asian person, your experiences of living in the UK can be explained entirely through racism.
00:13:49.980That's a completely, I think that's a profoundly damaging distortion of their actual experiences, the actual complex experiences.
00:14:00.980And I think that also denigrates their humanity as well, to simply consider them as purely victims of racism rather than as complex, fully embodied people.
00:14:12.980Because there are instances where you go, so take Windrush for example.
00:14:18.980I'm not, I don't know how much of that is racist, but you could, but it's pretty obvious that these people, these immigrants at the time and British citizens were horrendously badly treated.
00:14:36.980And I think Windrush is an excellent example because Windrush is something which is very much specific to a UK context.
00:14:44.980You can't really translate the experience of Windrush to say America, for example, because you can't really call black Americans an immigrant community.
00:14:54.980Because the vast majority of black Americans are descendants from, descendants of enslaved Africans that were transported to America between the 17th and the 19th centuries.
00:15:06.980In fact, the average black American can trace their ancestry further back than the average white American.
00:15:13.980Because of course, most white Americans are descendants, not only from like these sorts of English founders of America, but also like successive waves of European immigration from the middle of the 19th century onwards.
00:15:29.980So you can't really, so you can make the argument that black Americans are almost like an indigenous community to America, but you can't say the same with black British people.
00:15:42.980Because the most, the vast majority of black British people are immigrants or the children, children of immigrants, not even from the Caribbean, because 25 years ago, the vast majority of black British people were black Caribbean people.
00:16:01.980But over the past 25 years, there's been a massive influx of immigration from Africa, which means that the majority of black British people today are black Africans.
00:16:12.980In fact, there are twice as many black African people as there are black Caribbean people.
00:16:17.980But this isn't really incorporated into discussions of race and racism enough.
00:16:23.980No, absolutely. And I was going to ask you about, you split your book into two sections, really.
00:16:37.980So what are some of the big differences?
00:16:39.980Now, one of them you've just pointed out, which is the majority of black people in this country today are actually not the descendants of slaves.
00:16:51.980I think another key difference is that in the UK, we don't have that particular history of institutionalized segregation that America obviously has.
00:17:07.980So in the UK, for example, interracial marriage has never been banned.
00:17:13.980And in the UK, black people and Asian people have never been barred from voting.
00:17:21.980So that particular historical legacy in America simply doesn't apply in the UK context.
00:17:30.980I think another key difference is that in the UK, there is much more internal diversity within the black British population than there is in America, I would argue.
00:17:48.980So in the UK, you've got black Caribbean people, black West African people, black East African people, and various other black communities.
00:18:01.980So even to use a term like black British, we need to acknowledge that there is diversity within that term.
00:18:10.980So in terms of education, for example, the experiences of black Caribbean people are very different to the experiences of black African people.
00:18:21.980And from what I hear, you know, particularly at school, those two groups of kids may not get on that well.
00:18:26.980And it's not because of white supremacy.
00:18:52.980And I think that's because of like things like Afro beats, which is a kind of popular West African music.
00:18:58.980But when I was growing up, which wasn't too long ago, to be called fresh or freshie was used as an insult, often directed at black African immigrants or recent or like black African like people in general.
00:19:15.980And I think one of the other key differences is that in terms of something like exclusion, black Caribbean pupils are more than twice as likely to be excluded from schools as black African people.
00:19:33.980Black African people also have better GCSE grades, better A-level grades.
00:19:41.980And I think acknowledging these differences is very important because if we genuinely care about the social inequalities in our society, we need to recognize these specific differences rather than making generalizations based on race.
00:20:04.980And I think I should also emphasize that when I say black Caribbean pupils, I'm specifically referring to black Caribbean boys.
00:20:12.980So black Caribbean girls tend to do much better in terms of education than black Caribbean boys.
00:20:18.980But I should also acknowledge the fact that the ethnic minority group that does least well in education are the Roma, traveler, gypsy communities.
00:20:34.980They tend to do least well and they tend to do least well and they're often sort of seen as white.
00:20:39.980So it shows that when we try to, when we, when we think about inequalities in education, simply looking at it through the lens of race is completely inadequate.
00:20:52.980Hey Francis, why should you always use ExpressVPN?
00:20:56.980Uh, to stop people finding out you frequent websites like ilovepowerfulfeminist.com.
00:21:30.980Every time you connect to an unencrypted network in cafes, hotels, airports, anyone on that network can gain access to your personal data like passwords, financial details and so on.
00:21:41.980And it doesn't take much technical knowledge to hack someone.
00:24:08.980It's not good for the kind of self-confidence that we need to inculcate in whether black or Asian kids.
00:24:18.980Because if you tell people enough times that they are the victims of racism, they are the victims of oppression, they are the victims of discrimination, they will inevitably see it everywhere.
00:24:35.980That kind of self-reinforcing mechanism, they will completely imbibe it.
00:24:40.980And they would be unable to actually acknowledge the fact that, no, this is not the case.
00:24:48.980Of course, there's still racism in the UK.
00:24:51.980But to define the experiences of black or Asian people entirely through the perspective of racism or race is completely inimical to what we should try to imbibe in them, which is the truth, basically.
00:25:11.980And I think that that is one of the key aspects of my writing.
00:25:15.980I'm concerned with what is actually going on, whether something is actually true or not.
00:25:20.980Well, that's the most important thing, because that then allows you, if you're talking about policy or whatever, to make the right decisions.
00:25:27.980But I was curious at the individual level, do you think that this very simplistic, victimhood-driven worldview, do you think that is landing with people, you know, you're in your sort of mid to late 20s, your generation and younger?
00:25:41.980Do you think that young people from ethnic minority backgrounds are being persuaded to see themselves in this way, are being persuaded to think that, you know, life here is terrible?
00:25:56.980So I think amongst some young ethnic minority people, they do definitely imbibe that kind of message.
00:26:03.980And the ones that do sort of imbibe that kind of message are the ones that are often invited on to TV shows and invited on to write newspaper columns and magazine articles.
00:26:16.980And the ones that don't really imbibe that kind of message just get on with their lives, basically.
00:26:22.980They're not really political in that sense.
00:26:25.980They just get on with their lives and just...
00:26:31.980But I think it's great that you're here because I do think it's really important that people who don't imbibe that narrative don't just go and get a job.
00:27:00.980Why do different groups perform differently?
00:27:03.980If, let's say, West African girls are doing the best in education, we can conclude from that that whatever role racism plays in people's outcomes, it's not inhibiting them as much as it's inhibiting someone else.
00:27:38.980It's family structure, it's culture, it's class.
00:27:43.980So many West African immigrant communities, they, most of them came, as I said earlier, over the past 25, 30 years.
00:27:54.980And they've arrived from independent African countries.
00:27:59.980So with the Windrush generation, a lot of them arrived from Caribbean colonies.
00:28:05.980So they were basically going to the motherland, essentially.
00:28:09.980Whereas with recent African immigrant communities, they've arrived from independent African countries.
00:28:16.980And many of them were already university educated in Africa.
00:28:22.980So when they've arrived in the UK, there is that particular expectation that they want their kids to be university, at least university educated as well.
00:28:35.980So there is that attitude of emphasizing the importance of education.
00:28:41.980Education is absolutely critical to the way that many of these West African families conceive of themselves.
00:28:50.980Things like education, things like religion, things like a strong family network, all of them absolutely critical.
00:29:00.980And I think that's part of the reason why, for example, many West African families that live in southeast London are absolutely desperate to get their kids to be sent to the grammar schools in Kent.
00:29:15.980Because if you go to any grammar school in Kent, one of the striking things is the number of West African kids in these grammar schools.
00:29:25.980And I think that's because of that particular culture of educational aspiration.
00:29:30.980Yeah, look, and we all know this, but why is it that we can't talk about it?
00:29:35.980Why can't we have a simple, frank and honest conversation?
00:29:39.980Because race might play a factor, but it's certainly not all of the equation.
00:29:44.980Yeah, because I think when anyone makes this point, people would counter by saying, well, you're sort of victim blaming.
00:29:53.980You're saying, oh, this is the fault of black Caribbean people.
00:29:56.980This is the fault of black Caribbean culture.
00:29:59.980And people also say, oh, you're denying the existence of racism.
00:30:03.980When in fact, what I'm saying and what many people are saying is that, of course, racism might be a factor.
00:30:10.980And of course, racism still exists in the UK.
00:30:13.980What we're arguing is that we should not look at racism as the only factor.
00:30:18.980We should consider other things because it simply doesn't make sense to think that race is the only thing that shapes things like educational outcomes.
00:30:28.980Because if it did, we would not be able to explain the differences between various black groups.
00:30:35.980Tom, here's a particularly unpleasant question.
00:30:38.980But it needs to be asked, if your kid gets expelled, isn't it your fault?
00:30:44.980What, you mean the fault of the parents?
00:31:10.980But I think that we should also look at wider problems, wider social.
00:31:16.980So if you've, say you're a young kid and you grew up without any sort of father figure, and you grew up in a place where there is mass poverty, in a place where the only role models in your society are basically criminals.
00:31:35.980Or like gang people that are involved in gang communities.
00:31:39.980If you grew up within that particular environment, it would take a lot of individual willpower to be studious, to be focused on trying to better yourselves.
00:31:54.980So I think we should not underestimate the extent to which peer pressure plays a role, because peer pressure is one of the most powerful social forces.
00:32:05.980And it doesn't just apply to this situation.
00:33:01.980And I think that that is something that we need to acknowledge, which is that the environment of black people, I think minority people in general are not all the same.
00:33:13.980And it's a bit weird to sort of consider them to be the same, because the environment of white people isn't the same as well.
00:33:22.980So why should we assume that the environment of ethnic minority people would be the same?
00:33:26.980Isn't it a bit racist to go, you're black, therefore you are going to behave exactly like this, have these opinions, and probably be expelled from school?
00:33:41.980I'm always reluctant to describe something as racist, but it is definitely patronizing and it is definitely counterproductive, especially if you consider yourself to be an avowed anti-racist to make generalizations based on race in that way.
00:33:59.980I think it shows an extreme lack of curiosity on your part to not wonder the differences, whether that be cultural, socioeconomic differences in terms of religion, for example, between these various racial or ethnic groups.
00:35:33.980I wonder how representative you think the media conversation is to what ordinary black and brown and whatever people are sort of talking around the dinner table.
00:35:44.980It's not representative at all, would be my answer to that.
00:35:48.980Because I think the actual experiences of black people are so diverse that to even use a term like black voice or the black community does a massive disservice to those different values, those different points of views, those different experiences.
00:36:14.980So I think, and the kinds of things as well that black people often discuss, the kind of values that black people often espouse are often counter to the kind of values that many of these self-appointed black pundits or intellectuals or whatever you want to call them, what they express.
00:36:38.980Because I think one of the things about many black people in the UK, I'm thinking in particular of many black African communities, is the extent to which religion plays a pivotal role in how they see themselves.
00:36:55.980And the kind of cultural or social conservatism, which is implied by that, is not something that we often discuss.
00:37:06.980Well, they don't have pride flags ever.
00:37:45.980And it's not just like the black or even Asian Muslims.
00:37:48.980It's also like Eastern European immigrants as well, who often tends to be quite Catholic as well in terms of their religious background.
00:37:56.980So that's why there is that kind of tension, which is that in the most multicultural parts of the country, you also get the most religious sensibilities which are expressed.
00:38:13.980And yet, at the same time, the white middle class liberal expects all of these people to vote Labour and to have deeply progressive views.
00:38:28.980Why do big cities then, and it's not just London obviously, but why do all the big cities, and you see it here and in America, one of the uniting factors is they're always consistently left wing.
00:38:43.980I think it's just a kind of political tribalism, essentially, rather than any sort of genuine consideration of the policies and the values that are embodied by any particular party.
00:39:00.980So I think with voting preferences, it's often based on vibes, it's often based on any sort of pre-intellectual affiliation, rather than any genuine consideration of what the parties actually stand for.
00:39:18.980Do you think part of it is also as well that, you know, if you all come from an ethnic minority, that automatically means that you are in the minority.
00:39:31.980And therefore, you are going to, you do not want to stand out as much because you don't want to be alienated from your tribe, whatever your tribe may be, by being conservative or saying, hey guys, I think this commentator is actually talking nonsense.
00:39:51.980But I also think there's another striking dimension to discussions about diversity and politics.
00:39:57.980So one of the interesting things about the UK is that in the Conservative Party, there are many prominent Conservative politicians that come from an Asian background, including our current Prime Minister, Mr. Rishi Sunak.
00:40:14.980But I think one dimension to this hasn't been spoken enough about, which is that many of these prominent Asian Conservative politicians didn't arrive directly from Asia.
00:40:30.980They came through the roots of East Africa.
00:40:33.980And I think it makes sense why their families espouse conservative points of views.
00:40:42.980Because if you come from, if your family comes from an East African country where they were basically kicked out by the government.
00:40:54.980They were like the Jews of East Africa.
00:40:55.980Yeah, they were basically kicked out because they were considered parasites.
00:41:00.980If you come from that particular background, it would make sense why you would not trust the government to solve all the issues in society.
00:41:08.980It would make sense why you wouldn't trust the state.
00:41:11.980It would make sense why you would emphasize the importance of family, the importance of individual striving, individual aspiration, if you come from that particular background.
00:41:22.980And I think it does make sense why people like Rishi Sunak and the other prominent Conservative Asian politicians are Conservative because of that particular background.
00:41:38.980And I think it also makes sense why somebody like Kemi Badenak, who's also a very prominent Conservative politician from a West African background,
00:41:49.980because even though she was born in the UK, she actually grew up in Nigeria.
00:41:54.980And when she was growing up in Nigeria, Nigeria was a military dictatorship.
00:41:59.980So it would make sense why she's got many positive views about the UK.
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00:44:04.980What have I told you about improvising?
00:46:45.980And try to understand whether those legacies still affect contemporary society.
00:46:51.980But to focus almost exclusively on slavery, where, for instance, there are twice as many Asian people in the UK as there are black people.
00:47:06.980And it's not clear to me how the transatlantic slave trade, for example, explains their own historical experiences.
00:47:19.980And in the case of colonialism, of course, there are many terrible things that the British did under the auspices of colonialism.
00:47:28.980But to simply view colonialism as just a succession of evil acts, to sort of view colonialism through the perspective of domination, I think is also historically provincial.
00:47:45.980Really, that's interesting, because I've never taken the argument that far.
00:47:50.980But I guess it sounds like what you're saying is colonialism also has benefits.
00:47:54.980Not benefits, but it was a complex thing.
00:47:57.980So, for example, an aspect of colonialism which isn't really acknowledged enough is the aspects of the missionaries.
00:48:10.980So, the reason why, for example, many West African leaders became anti-colonial in the first place was because many of them were educated in schools by missionaries.
00:48:29.980So, in a paradoxical sense, there are certain aspects of colonialism that sort of fueled the seeds that ended up undermining colonialism in the first place.
00:48:42.980And these missionary schools were, of course, Christian.
00:48:49.980And many of the values that these post-colonial leaders imbibed in these schools, values such as opposition to injustice of any kind, they came from these missionary teachers.
00:49:07.980So, in a sense, colonialism was paradoxical in that sense.
00:49:14.980I'm talking about British colonialism because of that, which is not to underplay or to underestimate the many evils perpetrated by colonizing powers or British colonizing powers in particular.
00:49:28.980It's just to say that there are nuances and there are complexities within that as well.
00:49:34.980So, you're saying we're the good guys, basically.
00:49:38.980But, you know, there was one, I was watching this program, it's actually a really good program, one of the few good programs the BBC does, called Who Do You Think You Are?
00:49:47.980And there was this beautifully, unintentionally hilarious moment where they got one of these celebrities, I can't remember who it was, black lady, and they were talking about her ancestor who was a slave.
00:50:36.980And I think that kind of view of history as well also explains why there is this view that there is some sort of universal black identity, that black people around the world all share the same values and the same beliefs and the same outlook.
00:50:52.980And this is completely wrong from my own particular experience as well.
00:50:57.980So, as I said at the very start, I was born in Nigeria.
00:51:02.980And in Nigeria, over 99% of the population is black.
00:51:13.980Not racial diversity, other types of diversity.
00:51:16.980So, of course, race is not at the forefront of the minds of the ordinary Nigerian.
00:51:23.980And race is not one of the factors that divide society.
00:51:28.980Other factors such as ethnic tribal group, religion, region or geography, those are the things that shape the divisions within Nigerian society.
00:51:39.980And this became evident to me when, last year, my brother was getting married and my brother lives in America.
00:51:50.980And he was getting married to an African American woman.
00:51:54.980So, a woman whose ancestors were enslaved Africans.
00:51:58.980And she brought along a lot of her family members and friends to Nigeria.
00:52:05.980And I assume that many of these black Americans expected a kind of homecoming, a kind of return of the prodigal son or daughter or whatever.
00:52:16.980But the striking thing is that what struck many of these Nigerians was not the fact that these black Americans were black.
00:52:26.980It was the fact that these black Americans were Americans.
00:52:30.980So, the American-ness of them was the most striking thing to the Nigerians.
00:52:37.980Which I think just goes to illustrate that race is not at the forefront of the minds of many African people themselves.
00:52:46.980Other things might shape the way that they look at black Americans, black British people and black people from across the rest of the world.
00:52:55.980So, what you're saying is, and this is very controversial, is that people's skin color doesn't determine how they act and behave and think.
00:53:06.980Listen, it's a great book and it's great chatting to you as we start to move towards the end of the interview.
00:53:12.980What would be your message to young people growing up in this country who have been, you know, they've had this stuff shoved at them from every social media and media and TV and whatever.
00:53:27.980How should people think about, you know, being from a minority background in this country?
00:53:33.980You know, look, everyone's got a different experience.
00:53:36.980What are some of the important things do you think that people should take away when they're being presented with, as you talk about in the book, a very Americanized, downloaded from Hollywood sort of narrative?
00:53:47.980What's a helpful way to think about, you know, race relations in this country and so on?
00:53:53.980By going to their neighbors, by speaking to their friends, by observing what's going on in their local community, their cities, their towns, the wider country.
00:54:07.980Simply by looking at each individual on their own terms, rather than through the perspective of their racial background, whatever that might be, or through any kind of assumption based on race or ethnicity.
00:54:25.980It's by acknowledging that each person is both rooted in their own particular context, their own particular environments, but also at the same time, each person is endowed with a certain kind of indivisible moral dignity, a certain kind of universal moral dignity.
00:54:50.980And they should be looked at through that perspective as well, rather than any kind of abstract ideas about what it means to be black, what it means to be ethnic.
00:55:00.980He's really radical. He's saying you should treat people on the content of their characters.
00:56:47.980In the future, I think the negative deleterious effects of online pornography is something that will be a major social and policy question.