Why Critical Thinking Is Dead - Warren Smith
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 3 minutes
Harmful content
Toxicity
7
sentences flagged
Hate speech
6
sentences flagged
Summary
In this episode of Chickenometry, we have Warren Smith on the show to talk about his experience teaching at a public high school, and the lessons he learned about critical thinking and how it's applied in the classroom.
Transcript
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What if there was a way to make a pile of extra money that required little to no work at all?
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And what if you could include your friends, family, and co-workers to do the same?
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Sign up, refer a friend, listen for your name, and call us back when you hear it.
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it was actually a very good example of someone applying critical thinking to an issue in good
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faith this kind of environment it creates people who actually can't think which is why it's kind
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of impressive that the video you did about jk ronning with your help actually could think
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they insinuate that we'll make it so you can't teach essentially we won't give we'll give you
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a good recommendation if you sign this thing i hope you don't make any mistakes that was their
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language. It's kind of mafioso, isn't it? What did that entire experience teach you about the
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education system? There's a fear that I see at the college level and the high school level around
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the emotional impact of the students to be able to have these conversations. Many would claim
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there is no true way to run a business. It's up to me, and all interpretations are equally valid.
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How many postmodernists have a business that they run?
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Before we get into opinions and debate and all that kind of stuff,
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tell everybody your story because your story is very interesting.
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opened a door for youtube i was like oh see how far this will will go this is interesting
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i knew there was a risk but the it didn't outweigh the cost of not trying if that makes sense
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caught up kind of in a way i thought there was an 80 chance that the school given kind of skipped
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over this video and viral or we said i knew they weren't happy with that i thought there was like
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80 chance they just won't renew my contract they did a slightly different move got rid of me quickly
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midday kind of threw me into this weird limbo where now i have to focus on this i was under
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50 000 subscribers wasn't financially viable scary time worked out here we are so what was
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the what was the school and what was the video so i don't want to dox the school because it
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it would be unnecessary i mean it would take a google i imagine no people have tried oh okay
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they don't want it so nobody knows which college you were teaching at this was a high school high
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school okay okay right um so you asked me which schools what was the other part of the question
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what was the video oh the video was with a student up making the claim that jk rowling
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asking me how have your views on harry potter changed given jk rowling's bigoted opinions
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All right, let's just run through that, and he ended up changing his mind, realizing he
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didn't have the evidence necessary for the claim, and that was all it was.
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I was surprised that anyone watched it, to be honest.
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Well, it was a great video because it was actually a very good example of someone applying
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critical thinking to an issue in good faith, and you could just watch through the logical
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fallacies that the person had in their head to ask the question in that way.
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and you kind of de-radicalized almost them in that moment so why why would that be such a
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controversial thing well there were many teachers not happy about it because they disagree on jk
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rolling and word would get to me they don't say these things to your face and non-verbal
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communication is extremely important in navigating these day-to-day games that occur but i was
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working with another teacher a music teacher who had been collaborating with me on youtube in the
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in the past already, we were fascinated by the technology, the medium, and he would tell
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me, man, they're looking, they're not happy, they're looking for, just be careful, they're
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looking for any reason. And in the meantime, he and I had set up a little studio space
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that's still that bookshelf that I record to this day. Every Friday, he would come over
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and he would be the voice off the camera. And he had opposite views from Romania. And
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so it would make for really good conversations. And there was something interesting about
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not having the person on camera because i think it allowed the viewer to project themselves in a way
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but anyways so why would they not be happy also just the response i think is primarily because at
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first so the video goes viral the next day pierce morgan wants to have me on for like a 15 minute
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quick thing and i remember like man do i'm gonna have to run this through the chain of command
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with the school this is gonna be they're gonna say no so i just did it and i came in the next day
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people they already knew because i remember the day after before pierce morgan came in
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and every i wasn't going to say anything maybe they won't notice everybody knew because elon
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had tweeted it out and so they had a meeting after school and like yeah so this happened
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with warren he didn't break any rules he's not in trouble so then i do all right then i do the
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pierce morgan thing then i come into school and they're like all right we've got to meet with the
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lawyers um the head honcho the person in charge of the school who's really just this business
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person never at the school we see her maybe once or twice a year the principal was nice guy he was
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the one like this is crazy this is like and he was a little bit like look man if you're going to do
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pierce more you got to run up the chain of command and i was like okay and he's like but honestly i
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would have done the same thing so he was reasonable in that sense but this went above his head so i
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meet with the with the lawyers and they're on conference call well you didn't break any rules
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they literally said congratulations um you're probably going to want to keep making things
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you seem to enjoy it i hope you don't make any mistakes that was their language
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it's kind of mafioso isn't it there are aspects of this that are eerily like we can get into it
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if you want but very strange that people want like you're making this up it's crazy so let's
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talk about that like the i hope you don't make any mistakes you know be ashamed yeah that's what it
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was yeah so let's talk about that that aspect of it in what way well you were saying there's some
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stuff that you could share yeah that people oh that was out so after i'm thinking about this
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incident where the teacher that i've been collaborating with he was like my best friend
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at school got along really well because our content the subject matter was very similar
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we shared interest camera technology both fascinated with it and we'd be making all
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these promotional videos for the school to go online so maybe a month goes by before i get
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fired and he's warning me and warning me about all this stuff and i get fired and he it's like
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something had switched and i anticipated this as well i knew that they were going to sit him down
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like you can't keep doing this with warren like he's dead to us it was like i was deleted like
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in me it was very like you don't exist it's very strange no contact but all of his he helped me set
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up the space so a lot of his equipment's in that space and so a week goes by and he finally he
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He texted me the day after I heard the news because I was, I was like escorted out.
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You do this video about JK Rowling, but the student, they say don't make any mistakes.
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I did the same thing again with a different student, but I took more.
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So teaching media, I have a list of who has the clearances, who has signed the releases,
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And we had had another conversation, like, oh, this one's kind of interesting.
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We had been making the content in my house, because we were like, man, we've got to...
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We don't want any more heat with the school, so let's just do it all at the house.
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But this one exchange, I was like, this is interesting.
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It was about JK Rowling, a student claiming she was racist.
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And we knew the audience, this is what the audience wanted.
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had the i had the clearances and so i i shared it on x i think but i was like the lighting was
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atrocious so i ended up deleting it the school took that as evidence that i knew i was doing
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something wrong and i was trying to cover my tracks that was was the lawyer's speak that came
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at me later but they sat on that for like three weeks hoping i would do it again i found out
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later like they could have told me hey this is what we're talking about like make these adjustments
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but they want they were waiting for something to use it was clearly a tactical so that would be
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the mistake even i was like so they pulled me in the the office i was like did you talk to the
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student did you talk to his parents i did more than i've ever done like the steps like yeah
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there's this new step though you have to ask so and so the you're super and i had two sets of
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supervising principles because it's divided well you didn't check with this person so you're gone
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and um they made it very clear like you can either accept you can accept it now that we
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want to get rid of you for youtube because it's not just and i get that in a way it's like
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it's it i i get that um or we can conduct an investigation and get back to you in three days
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like you haven't talked to the parents or the student even that you're worried about like do
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they the student doesn't care like okay let's wait and then they kind of all that needs and
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anyone listening to this if you find yourself in a similar situation force them into admitting what
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they're doing be like okay you want to fight you're firing me now then i'm not giving you
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three days because what they're going to do is try and go through everything and find something
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better and then point to that so anyways a week goes by i recorded a video about it just to
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process my thoughts i was it was really psychologically uh it's one of the most
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difficult periods i've ever been through i came home that day i was just throwing up the whole
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i slept on the bathroom floor um and the next day i sat down and recorded something waited
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i didn't post it for like a week or two and then i did and jk rowling reached out which was
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a significant gesture for me meant a lot anyway so he a week goes by he needs to get his equipment
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he comes over to the house he's talking completely different he's like you you knew you weren't
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supposed to do that i was like dude i talked to you about all of these things that we you told
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me they were trying to he was like this was he was trying to like as though it's like i couldn't
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recognize him he was like trying to insinuate that i had calculated this to purposely be fired
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and it was like he was trying to get me on tape or something yeah i was gonna say it sounds like
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he was wearing a wire yeah that's what i meant by the mafia thing but if i try and tell i've only
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told the story once if i tell it people like that's this sounds like you're just making up
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a mob move or something but this is true like and he got his equipment out there and he and
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didn't say a word which is another indicator something was strange because he wasn't saying
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anything other than these things and we went outside and he had a cigarette we knew we both
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knew this was the last time we were going to talk to and we were like best friends wow yeah
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and i was like man this is i don't think you understand just the game they're playing here
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i was like and just be careful like you as well because this could happen to and i had seen people
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get taken out the principal who hired me was there for eight years devoted eight years and
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the assistant principal who hired me taken out on the same day two years prior and it was
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nonsensical reasons they just will force they have the ability because it's not like a regular
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public school they have the ability to force through outcomes however they want it creates
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a very weird environment yeah so i and he left and as he was walking out i was like hey there's
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this one device that will allow me to continue to plug a mic in this xlr adapter can i can i
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buy it from you and he just handed it to me didn't say a word got his car and and that's the last
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time i saw him and then i get a text from the school a week later saying hey that um he left
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this microphone and we had gone through great lengths to make sure all this equipment was
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personal so we're not crossing any lines school contacts me says you have our microphone so we're
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going to use that as leverage for this negotiation where they send an nda they said if you sign this
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nda will pay you the rest of what we owe you for the year we'll pay you for the end of the month
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but we'll pay to the end of the year if you sign this nda i'll prevent you from ever talking about
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this just go over with a lawyer like a person from h they're very rushed on the phone they want to
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do you have any questions yeah i have a lot of questions sorry click like that kind of thing
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i have to get a how am i going to afford a lawyer i i don't have any money like and they know that
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so they think you're just going to sign it and they may they insinuate that we'll make it so
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you can't teach essentially we won't give we'll give you a good recommendation if you
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sign this thing it would also give them control of some of the videos on the youtube channel as well
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so i did not sign sign it peter bogosian helped me get a lawyer cost me i think she went easy on
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me because she knew the predicament so she i think she gave me a break on the cost cost a couple
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four thousand probably which is probably a good deal for she negotiated with them and she's like
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she was said to me if i were you i've never said this to a client normally clients come to me with
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these offers these india they say just sign it because why do you need to talk about this she's
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like but this is strange my advice to you would be to if you can afford to not take it was like
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eight thousand dollars nine thousand but to me that was massive she's like if you can afford it
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pass on it don't do it and i'm so glad i didn't i wouldn't be talking to you right now what did that
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entire experience teach you about the education system i was talking to these guys about it too
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there's a fear that i see at the college level and the high school level around the emotional
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impact of the students to be able to have these conversations so like the sam richards who i've
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worked with and i do videos covering him sometimes where he's live streaming his college courses and
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they do very well because people find it fascinating he's very worried about getting
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shut down he just got i was supposed to i went down and spoke to his class which is 500 students
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and i was supposed to go down this month but he just texted me the other day and said he has a
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meeting he's been summoned to by the provost and he doesn't think they're going to get shut down
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but that threat is always looming and that's what they're going to use if i told him this earlier
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on i was like it's going to be over the potential for hurt feelings they will probably won't even
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be able to point to anyone where there is actual damage or anyone who really cares because he's
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careful about which students he selects they all know they all know what they're doing before they
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do it they understand it but the school can can still point to and that's one of the things the
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school pointed to with me is they said okay well yes but the student having something like yeah
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we didn't expect this to go viral and yes it doesn't break any rules but when there's millions
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of people looking at it it could take a toll on him i was like yeah but also they're almost all
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positive because he changes he was reasonable in the video he to me he i think he was a very mature
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student a very intelligent student and it's also as well you couldn't see what the student looked
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like which is a massive part when it comes to child safety right it would logically it would
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be the same thing as if that music teacher made a song with one of the students they posted on
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youtube just the audio and it goes viral so that's technically the exact it's just a voice
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wasn't your first time in the crosshairs of this kind of phenomenon because you were at Emerson
00:17:09.260
college weren't you where i think it was 2016 where you saw the real flourishings of woke
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post trump so let's talk about that because that's fascinating as well yeah i still teach at emerson
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i teach a filmmaking course and that was originally my plan was to hopefully be a professor at college
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my parents were both professors academia seemed like a great job and it it is it's got great
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benefits. And what I saw there in 2016 was, it shook me for sure. I wasn't into any, I was,
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I discovered the space as well, Jordan Peterson, and I was fascinated by it because there was
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certainly a problem with what I was encountering at school. Students, 300, over 300 students
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marched into a faculty assembly claiming that Emerson was racist and making, with literally
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a list of demands and the administration kowtowed to it they gave in and that was the next day
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the week following that i was taking a pedagogy course with the dean of undergrad
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teaching it and we had to devote the four-hour class this week to discussing the systemic racism
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at emerson and the head of the social justice center which is a literal office literal people
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um you could do uh bias anonymous bias reports they were sitting in and the white students were
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told to surrender our white privilege for the duration of the four hours and i thought that's
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so weird how does one surrender i don't know i would love to have a discussion with them
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but they won't probably they wouldn't have a discussion and it's worth bearing in mind
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to people who don't know emerson emerson is an incredibly left-wing college yeah it's extremely
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left-wing. I didn't meet a single conservative professor at the time. There was one student I
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can remember from grad school that was libertarian. So that being the case, you think,
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why is it that one of the most progressive left-wing schools in the country is suddenly
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racist or white supremacist? It just doesn't make any sense. Well, it's a captivating narrative
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that creates an emotional satisfaction. It also gives the students the ability to make demands
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their professors they couldn't otherwise make so i was asked to teach my first class screenwriting
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and the teacher that was signing it to me i was her ta she was warren okay you're about to do this
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so remember hold the students accountable so for example warren i have this one student doesn't
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show up to class doesn't do any assignments and i'm going to give her the grade she deserves you
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need to do the same thing the protest happens i'm about to teach it and we have a follow-up meeting
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remember warren i was saying about that student she got named on the website on the it was a
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facebook group hashtag emerson so racist accusing of microaggressions claiming she made a
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microaggression which doesn't require evidence because it's subconscious it's a microaggression
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yeah warren i was really wrong about that because that student i forgot how difficult it is she
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told me about how difficult it is to be black at emerson so i can't hold her it's insinuating i
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can't hold her to account for not coming to class because there's not enough professors who that
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that are Black, according to them. They don't see themselves reflected in the student body,
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even though there are many Black students and Black professors.
0.99
00:20:23.180
That's so crazy. So what it's effectively saying is you can't uphold academic standards because
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somebody is of a different color. That's what that student was pushing for,
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and many do. It allows them to push for that. So people are going to do what's in their interest
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if you give them the ability to. So it doesn't surprise me in the least that they took this
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this narrative and ran with it and why do you think colleges caved to this kind of thing
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because well so the the pressure uh the the culture that exists within this high level
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highbrow academic elite where they all need to be they all strive to be as sensitive here's an
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example one teacher didn't cave and I have the letter that he wrote he sent an email I think
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sent it to the whole school which is bold i have it though i don't remember the president he said
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we shouldn't be kowtowing to a mob essentially well articulated long email the president to respond
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yeah i'm pretty sure that teacher did not blast it he sent it to the the president of the college
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the president countered by blasting everyone's anyone with an emerson email address received
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this email so i have both letters and it was essentially applying that pressure that you are
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going to be ostracized yeah you have tenure but you're cooked if you go down this road you don't
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represent our values that we uphold and we're striving how dare you these students are brave
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enough to stand up and tell us about their victimization and the subconscious turmoil
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that they're going through every day how dare you treat it in such an insensitive way and that was
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a long email but that was that's how i would summarize it because from what you're talking
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about with emerson to what's happening in the school it just sounds like the seeds were planted
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a long time ago and the inevitable consequence is where we've reached now where any type of
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debate is shut down or seen as damaging or harmful to the students yeah i would i really enjoyed i've
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I've always enjoyed pushing back where I think it's warranted.
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And I would in class, and it was interesting to see how the professors responded.
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It was interesting to note that so many of the graduate level students, in my discipline
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at least, were direct students from China, which I didn't, I still don't, I think it's
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because they pay higher tuition as essentially business.
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But Emerson has a high representation in China.
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Every year they send ambassadors over, they would select a student ambassador to go over
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remember because the the dean also had a high presence in china she talked about how many times
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she'd been there but even but i remember bringing challenging one day in social and um cultural
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media studies i have the textbook still in chapter one is by carl marx talking about can we control
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the internet and i was like well we should ask how's it working in china like what do you guys
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think and i said it just like that he said no you can't can't talk about like that or talk about
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that's like this is a college level this is a graduate level class you want to analyze whether
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we control the internet but we can't talk about real world examples because it's culturally
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insensitive is the way he's insinuating it's a little example that one stands out in my mind
00:23:32.680
vividly but there was a lot of nonsensical encounters with professors that oh it just
00:23:37.240
gets under your skin and then that drive when you do see an alternative like jordan peterson who i
00:23:41.080
think put his finger on the source that you're describing what led to this you could describe
00:23:49.860
Well, what I find extraordinary, Warren, is that you can kind of understand that in
00:23:56.140
a society of social media and all this kind of stuff, you kind of go, well, maybe there's
00:24:01.840
some sense to people being a little bit more careful about expressing controversial things.
00:24:08.280
Maybe if you work for a big company, everyone doesn't need to know your political opinions
00:24:13.480
because you're going to come into work, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:24:16.300
The one place that you would think you would encourage people to explore difficult and
00:24:22.020
controversial ideas is university, is college, because that's what it's for.
00:24:29.100
If we're having a conversation about can we control the internet, that's not political.
00:24:35.520
And it's one thing I totally understand, especially at the high school level.
00:24:39.860
Yeah, I don't like it when I see left-wing teachers preaching about Trump in class.
00:24:44.760
I wouldn't do that from the right. It's another, if you're going to have a discussion, if a student
00:24:48.840
asks you to explain, which literally happened to me, what is the difference between the left
00:24:53.400
and the right, essentially? Or what is communism? You can do it in a fair and balanced way.
00:25:00.680
At the college level, that's what you're going to get.
00:25:03.080
Right. But I guess what I'm getting at is, I mean, I think it's obvious to anyone who
00:25:08.360
who understands the pipeline of how you go from school to college, to work, to life,
00:25:15.060
this is the one part of your life that was specifically carved out for you to think about
00:25:19.800
things, to explore different ideas, to challenge and be challenged.
00:25:24.000
And that's now been taken away effectively, right?
00:25:26.720
So what do you think the impact of that is on society?
00:25:43.080
out of that college that I've encountered personally,
00:25:51.080
And I was hired to be the personal videographer,
00:25:53.080
this is how I made money as a student, to the dean.
00:25:56.080
I was referring to with the presidents in China.
00:26:00.080
when there's a public speaker or someone coming,
00:26:02.080
And I would do a promotional video, edit it quickly, and get it out in two days.
00:26:07.060
And so I got to see, because Emerson has a very prestigious journalism program.
00:26:13.500
And I got to see the people they were coming in, they were bringing in to speak,
00:26:22.060
There was not every conservative they brought in.
00:26:24.160
I still have the video, the footage, too, of some of this.
00:26:27.420
Every single speaker was still anti-Trump, the conservatives.
00:26:31.620
they were explaining how he's not a real conservative it was incredible the most
00:26:35.860
the most nuanced interesting speaker was a trump impersonator though i have some great footage of
00:26:40.820
that where rolling stone was doing a thing on him he was getting some traction i don't know where he
00:26:44.740
went but he came in and laid into the students being like no one thinks what you're doing is
00:26:48.820
cute you all like you're striving you think you're victims and and he was a graduate of emerson
00:26:54.340
in the comedy program and that was from the most interesting speaker i saw that would be
00:26:58.900
the closest thing to a nuanced take that i and how was that received
00:27:05.060
the students were kind of left aghast yeah they just were kind of speechless but i think he knew
00:27:10.900
what he understands the nature of comedy is to be bold yeah he's not afraid to do that there was
00:27:16.100
not enough there was no i i commend them there wasn't shouted off the campus like you would
00:27:20.740
expect but had he not been in such a prestigious role or just been covered by rolling stone and
00:27:27.700
been backed as a personal friend by the dean he would have been in probably a different response
00:27:32.420
well one of the interesting things about what you're saying is this kind of environment it
00:27:37.540
creates people who actually can't think which is why it's kind of impressive that the student
00:27:42.740
the video you did about jk ronning with your help actually could think because increasingly we see
00:27:48.260
this now on the internet as well it's like people are incapable of separating ideas from people and
00:27:54.260
the way that debates are now increasingly conducted i mean as we're sitting here recording
00:27:59.620
this this won't go out for a while but there's literally some of america's most prominent
0.94
00:28:03.620
journalists calling saying that they have micro penises online and it seems to me like that i
00:28:09.380
mean that's kind of a direct continuation of this like where you you no longer discuss any of the
00:28:15.300
issues and it's just you're on the wrong side you're on the wrong side of history you're the
00:28:20.820
other and what gets lost is the actual conversation and it's deeply offensive to people from the
0.68
00:28:26.740
micro penis community absolutely i think it's largely i've been working on this book that's
00:28:32.260
coming out that kind of delves into this i think it comes back to the laws and narrative and the
00:28:35.940
fact that we can't separate the character from the narrative psychologically it's impossible
00:28:40.500
i think it's largely because their narratives are built on their their business is built on their
00:28:46.580
claims when you become wed to your ideas that becomes your brand now you're defending your brand
00:28:51.300
so you're less likely to change your mind and then it leads into these these wars that we're seeing
00:28:58.820
now so that's my approach is different because i don't find that to be there's things that i
00:29:04.820
feel strongly about still right but those are my first principles that's not what we're seeing
00:29:10.100
we're seeing how the first principles manifest into politics and frankly politics is kind of
00:29:14.900
boring to me compared to the deeper dynamics beneath all this i totally agree and it's one
00:29:21.140
of the reasons we we we have had a lot of political guests on the show but we've increasingly felt
00:29:26.580
like that we want to space them out if having any of them at all and i mean when we started we are
00:29:31.780
always we don't have politicians on the show and then you know you kind of you know things are
00:29:35.780
going on in the world you want to hear some of their perspectives whatever but over time you're
00:29:40.020
definitely right that it kind of you end up playing a totally different game and it's not the game we
00:29:45.300
want to play and by the way i think there is plenty of space and you're demonstrating i hope
00:29:49.700
we're demonstrating it for content which is not about we're on this team or on this team but more
00:29:56.500
like we are adjudicating the issues that come up as we go and we have some principles that guide us
00:30:04.020
in that but like a lot of people won't be able to tell what we think about an issue that comes up
00:30:08.900
They try to, but often they're surprised by that.
00:30:12.900
And I think a lot of people find that very discombobulating because they just want you to be on their team.
00:30:17.900
Yes. Yeah, that's been an eye-opener as well for me.
00:30:23.900
Yeah, there's been content creators where, because I do this format where I like looking at the dynamics of these interactions,
00:30:34.460
you're everyone is going to have ones that go well and because we're wrong about certain things and
00:30:39.580
sometimes even when you're right it's going to go poorly it doesn't just the nature of
00:30:44.140
debates and i don't even like thinking of myself as a debater but i've noticed that as well where
00:30:50.940
like tim pool got really pissed at me because i disagreed with him on one video and that that
00:30:55.900
whoa that took me aback and there is this sense i've had a lot of people where there is this
00:30:59.980
team dynamic where it's like, yeah, but you're supposed to be on our ideological team, but
00:31:05.580
it's important to note, there's not a single person I'm going to agree with on everything.
00:31:11.740
We were kind of referring to that. Yeah, right. Well, I mean, one of the
00:31:14.700
difficulties is if you play the team game, which I understand why people play because it's
00:31:19.500
comfortable and there's lots of money to be made and friendships and, you know, gatherings and,
00:31:23.740
you know, there's lots of advantages, network advantages to being part of a thing. I don't
00:31:29.420
think that's really compatible with having solid principles and if i mean the i'm not even that
00:31:35.900
interested in anymore but like the candace owens situation is a very good example of this where
00:31:40.700
she's making claims about the fact that erica kirk killed her husband with the connivance of
00:31:47.180
egypt or israel it changes every day right and a lot of people on the right on her team
00:31:54.220
are very quiet about it which is you know maybe she's your friend whatever you handle it whichever
00:31:58.700
way you think i'm not that's up to those people but i just know that if someone on the left
00:32:03.340
was saying well no charlie kirk wasn't killed by the guy that we think he was killed by actually
00:32:07.800
he was killed by erica kirk i mean i think those people might have had something to say about it
00:32:11.780
right so you either have consistency of party loyalty or you have consistency of thought and
00:32:18.420
ideas and you can't have both sometimes right going into this year i told myself i was finally
00:32:25.140
going to stop guessing about my health. Like most people, I want more energy, better focus and to be
00:32:30.420
still strong and sharp years from now. But every time I've gone to the doctor, I walk out with
00:32:35.440
basically nothing. Everything's fine. Drink more water, sleep a bit more. No real insight, no plan,
00:32:41.700
just vibes. That's why superpower stood out to me. Superpower makes it simple to actually
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Not to the absolute, because you're going to disagree sometimes, for sure.
00:34:00.620
For me, the way I approach it, if I'm being quiet about something,
00:34:03.540
the way I would articulate it is I haven't seen anything to...
00:34:07.620
I have not seen adequate evidence to indicate that Erica Kirk killed Charlie Kirk.
00:34:18.760
But on my point, the point I'm making is something else, Warren.
00:34:21.800
And again, I don't really particularly care about having a go at these people who are
00:34:25.860
supposed to call Candace out or those people or whatever.
00:34:30.140
I'm just making a broader point, which is if you are, let's say, on the right and someone
00:34:36.160
on the left made these comments about Charlie Kirk, the response would be immediate and
00:34:45.120
yeah and yet when someone on your team does it you you you kind of go oh you know i think
00:34:52.120
attacking charlie kirk's widow's wrong yeah that's going back to that we can't separate
00:34:56.120
the character from the narrative right that's yeah and i i guess the point i'm trying to make
00:35:00.980
is i don't think it's possible to to play a team game while also being true to the facts i agree
00:35:06.900
i don't i true i don't play even if it looks like it i don't play team i think jordan peterson
00:35:15.100
was right to call and this has always stayed with me i don't like identity politics on the left or
00:35:21.100
the right maybe it's because i was just listening to my favorite debate driving down here with um
00:35:28.380
uh stephen fry i mean it's one of the simple debate but one of the most powerful
00:35:33.660
and that was the message it's like when does the left go too far when is it yeah the right
00:35:38.220
goes too far. And it goes deep to psychology, evolutionary psychology, why we band together in
00:35:46.940
these ways, but it's a foolish game, I think. Well, one of the things that happens is I think
0.62
00:35:52.540
in the podcast and content creation YouTube space, what we're talking about, which is ideas
00:35:59.420
and politics, they get meshed together. And so you have people who are talking about ideas
00:36:05.100
and sometimes they're talking about politics and we do this too and then those two things come
00:36:09.580
together and i think it's quite confusing it's like are you talking about ideas are you talking
00:36:13.900
about politics because they're just different games and i think a lot of the the discrepancy
00:36:18.300
comes from that actually yeah you know yeah it's like the difference between the first principles
00:36:22.540
and how they those underlying dynamics versus how they manifest into politics i mean i agree with
00:36:28.060
you on that for sure yeah i think part of the worry is when we talk about education is because
00:36:34.140
I used to be a teacher so everyone can drink now. I mention it every episode. That's right, yeah.
00:36:39.580
I like it where it's like, yeah. Where's your mom from again? Anyway, two drinks. But
00:36:46.300
one of the things that you do as a teacher is you disseminate information, give them information.
00:36:51.420
Arguably the most important part of teaching is not the information aspect of it, you're teaching
00:36:56.460
skills. So when I was a drama teacher, what you were doing is you were teaching skills to kids
00:37:02.140
So they knew how to be creative. They knew how to structure and create improvisations,
00:37:06.700
long form improvisations, plays, how to be more realistic on stage, etc.
00:37:10.780
What you're doing is teaching people how to think critically. The problem comes if we don't do that.
00:37:17.900
These skills are not intuitive. They have to be learned.
00:37:21.420
That's interesting. Yes, because I think the recognition of logic is intuitive,
00:37:25.580
but you're right because this is going counter against what we were just describing about that
00:37:29.980
tribal evolutionary impulse to band together for survival and yes breaking away pattern disruption
00:37:39.580
well it's a pattern disruption most people aren't going to do it the majority i think about it like
00:37:44.060
this majority of people are going to be like water they're going to take the path of least
00:37:48.380
resistance it's easier to be foolish than wise there's risk that comes with breaking away from
0.67
00:37:53.580
the group being i sat down with peter dr peterson he described as being the the zebra with like
00:37:59.820
orange stripes right like the reason zebras blend in is because they all have the same stripes white
00:38:05.740
and black stripes aren't going to cause you to blend into the grass you're you're blending to
00:38:10.540
the herd you're i think you are on to something there that's what i'm trying to delve into
00:38:17.020
with what i've been writing and trying to put it into um to words because when i look at some of
00:38:23.580
these kids and you know you you look at some people who debate these kids on campuses and
00:38:40.900
I hold my hands up and go, it's not the fault of the kid.
00:38:58.540
but the fact that we're producing legions of people who can't think critically that's not
00:39:05.100
the people's fault who are getting produced it's the fault of the system and what we need actually
00:39:09.580
is a radical oval and it's also the fault of the adults who won't contend with them or allow them
00:39:15.260
to be contended with for fear of the emotional damage or they won't be able to handle it even
00:39:20.620
when we're talking about college students who are adults well that's why i was asking you about why
00:39:24.940
my college administrators cave to this stuff, because I think within that, there is actually
00:39:31.140
power that they don't realize they have, because those are also teachable moments.
00:39:36.800
When a bunch of kids demand some kind of readjustment of the entire system, if you have strong leadership
00:39:44.060
in that moment that communicates that that is not how this works, that can teach those
00:39:51.860
And I think there's been an abdication of responsibility on the part of the adults,
00:39:55.540
I think, which is what Francis is trying to get in that way as well.
00:40:04.240
It goes back to that, I just can't stop thinking about this example with Sam Richards and how
00:40:08.360
there's this fear of all of these problems are going to have so many variables, though.
00:40:13.900
There's the variable of liability, well, it's being streamed on YouTube, okay, well, let's
00:40:20.040
the classrooms where it's not being streamed on youtube or being shared is that occurring i have
00:40:25.000
it i'm sure it must be happening i haven't seen it personally it doesn't mean it's not happening
00:40:30.840
but i think i agree with you it's safe to say that the majority of cases it's not
00:40:36.840
it's not being fostered and it's also as well not only do we not encourage kids and young people to
00:40:44.120
think critically we also fetishize emotions so if you're having a debate and you say something that
00:40:50.760
i profoundly disagree with or you criticize a point and i get offended because i hold that point
00:40:56.440
dear suddenly it becomes acceptable to be offended or angry or upset and i'm in the one in the right
00:41:03.160
and you're the one in the wrong yeah that's how it gets weaponized i was just thinking about
00:41:08.200
And probably the next video I do is looking back at you talking to Alex O'Connor, I think.
00:41:14.600
And he was trying to make the case as though hate speech laws are justifiable, well, because
00:41:24.440
So can't you imagine, Constantine, a case in which you are actually causing emotional
00:41:29.700
distress or harm to someone because of this medical condition?
00:41:33.800
And I think you handled that well, you were kind of like, just like, what are you, they're
00:41:36.620
just two completely different things. So I thought, it just reminded me of that. I thought
00:41:41.220
that was interesting. I agree with you. I'm great. I've forgotten we had that conversation. I like
00:41:45.860
Alex. We get on very well, actually. I don't remember that bit, but it was a long time ago.
00:41:50.560
Yeah, I just stumbled on it. I hadn't seen it before. That's interesting.
00:41:53.280
And do you, I mean, you're someone who really thinks about this very carefully. Do you have
00:41:56.760
thoughts on how to develop critical thinking skills, how to teach critical thinking skills?
00:42:02.000
Yes. So with martial, in martial arts, there's this concept of the kata, right? And it's when
00:42:10.760
you're in a real street fight, or for example, you can't stop and think, it's all do, subconscious.
00:42:19.020
But the kata breaks it down into rehearsable movements like a dance. So I was trying to come
00:42:23.500
up with a methodology that could be taught for that portion of it, because there's multiple
00:42:29.160
facets to this i really more i thought about it i realized critical thinking is not just for
00:42:34.040
debates it's for navigating these daily games that we're engaging in whether or not we realize it
00:42:39.240
when i was at that school navigating what i just described to you that was a game
00:42:43.080
that was being played on multiple levels and you can anticipate what you're all and you're trying
00:42:47.640
it's not necessarily you're trying to win you're trying to achieve the ideal outcome and recognize
00:42:53.080
where the best move is on the board then i'm trying to figure out okay so and a lot of that
00:42:59.480
is non-verbal it's not it's not so that the the signals that were being sent to me for example
00:43:05.720
that were no one came up to me and said we want you to be fired for your because i disagree with
00:43:11.080
but the body language around jake here it was i noticed it there's a lot of communication that's
00:43:16.440
non-verbal perhaps even most communication is non-verbal and people don't say what they really
00:43:22.440
think at the copy machine what your colleague really thinks but they telegraph it okay so but
00:43:27.240
once we meant once we do enter the verbal what is the kata that will allow us to navigate this
00:43:32.680
so i try and formulate a method that will help with that for me i describe it as a sort of a
00:43:39.400
flaw filter where it's not so much i i come at it as though this is the least bad option i've
00:43:46.520
been able to find can you genuinely offer anything better and it's important to recognize the least
00:43:51.480
bad option because as churchill said democracy is the worst form of government except for all
00:43:56.440
the others there's going to be flaws and that's a method people take or a strategy people take
00:44:00.840
just pointing out the flaws that doesn't disprove you have a better alternative so i'm listening
00:44:04.280
for the alternative i imagine kind of this like this red light bulb go that is sitting on the
00:44:08.600
desk and i'm listening i'm just this filter i'm not really taking a strong position necessarily
00:44:13.640
depends but and when i when that light bulb goes off with the first flaw now you're ready to make
00:44:18.600
a move it's a i i lay out a strategy for that but a lot of it is demeanor how do you develop the
00:44:25.480
demeanor and then we that gets into the laws of narrative i think a lot of understanding
00:44:30.280
these dynamics you need to understand the laws of narrative to understand and think critically
00:44:36.520
about dynamics like we've been describing with why are these moves being made with people teaming
00:44:41.400
up in this way or not breaking away from their team for this they're not thinking critically
00:44:46.440
their team comes first and a lot of that perhaps it's because my i spent 10 years studying
00:44:52.280
screenwriting and filmmaking the laws of narrative but i a lot of these lessons have are relevant
00:44:58.840
and i think it gave me the basis for what i use i use today so it's the hopefully that book will
00:45:08.120
be something that people can use to develop critical things but also how to navigate these
00:45:16.160
Well, it's interesting you bring up daily games because it's kind of how I think about
00:45:21.600
Like if you think about life in general, the closer you are to the truth of whatever the
00:45:27.200
issue is, the more functionally better off you're going to be in that situation.
00:45:33.400
So if you have, if your understanding of how to run a business is as close to the truth
00:45:37.860
as possible, you're going to be better at running a business.
00:45:41.220
If your understanding of what the truth of a YouTube channel is and how to run one, you're
00:45:48.460
If your understanding of what relationships are like is closer to the truth, that's much
00:45:53.880
better for you than having your own emotional experience that drives you away from the truth
00:46:00.320
and towards confirming your own biases or whatever else.
00:46:03.640
And that's what I think a lot of people don't realize is truth has a, it's not just a like
00:46:08.320
morality thing. It has a tremendous value. And so when we argue about what the truth is about
00:46:14.160
politics or philosophy or society, that's the place from which we're coming and that's why
00:46:18.880
it's so valuable, right? Yeah. And that's interesting that you put it that way, that
00:46:22.400
there is a true way to run a business because postmodernism would claim that, which is all about
00:46:29.120
truth claims being the result of social conditioning, many would claim there is no
00:46:34.800
true way to run a business. It's up to me. And all interpretations are equally valid,
00:46:40.960
have a business that they run? Right, right. And I think that it's such an important
00:46:48.240
dynamic that when you're encountering these students, many of them are arguing postmodernism,
00:46:53.120
they don't know what postmodernism is. And try debating someone on postmodernism,
00:46:58.320
like they'll just, they'll avoid it and they'll say, I don't want to get into that.
00:47:01.680
Well, it's like trying to nail Jell-O to the wall, right?
00:47:06.080
But you see, you take any example that, I mean, you talked about martial arts.
00:47:10.000
I imagine, I'm not a martial artist, but I imagine it's true that there are different
00:47:13.700
ways to throw a punch and there are different ways to do this.
00:47:20.140
Our bones can only structure in one way, given your body composition, there's only one way
00:47:24.080
you can get the most momentum in that position.
00:47:29.420
And this is what I think a lot of this dynamic that we now have in terms of the way people
00:47:33.640
communicate is, I think they've, I think actually most people I see online are behaving like
00:47:45.940
So you spoke to Destiny the other day, I made a video critiquing it, and there's already
00:47:49.700
a response video where I compared it to postmodernism, his response.
00:47:53.740
People are claiming, well, no Warren's claiming it's postmodernism, but that has to do with
00:47:57.980
destiny says to you well what is a lot it's always changing therefore you shouldn't be concerned
00:48:04.060
about it what do you mean unprecedented like what do you even mean by when you're claiming it's it
00:48:08.200
is or it is not a lot that is a truth claim so and maybe i should have said it's similar to talking
00:48:13.920
to a postmodernist when they do that everything's always changing so we can't expect a standard
00:48:18.300
what traditions are you can you cause can you point to a single tradition that hasn't changed
00:48:24.000
traditions don't matter to a post-modernist. It's all, and it's absolutely the opposite to how I
00:48:31.160
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You know, when I got taught postmodernism at university,
00:50:08.800
I remember just sitting there and going, this doesn't make sense.
00:50:14.760
Because when I asked them to explain postmodernism, they couldn't really explain what postmodernism is.
00:50:20.860
Yes. And in my art class, required to take modern art.
00:50:24.720
We go in there. She's explaining to me, very nice professor, but she's explaining to me that the banana nailed to the wall is of equal aesthetic beauty as the David, Michelangelo or whatever it is.
00:50:42.460
Beauty is purely a social construct, which actually goes against biology, that there are actual, there has to be a yardstick that drives us to see a hierarchy of beauty so we have a target to pursue.
00:50:57.440
But the interesting thing that I find about postmodernism and why I think it's so prevalent today is that you can only really understand postmodernism if you're disconnected from reality.
00:51:11.060
And every postmodernist you speak to has these claims, what you're describing is not postmodernism.
00:51:18.620
This is the technique that I see the most often.
00:51:22.740
They claim, no, you're misrepresenting my argument.
00:51:26.260
But what will happen, Destiny, for example, he will misrepresent your argument, claim,
00:51:31.760
no, what you're describing is critical race theory.
00:51:36.240
all critical race theory is is thinking critically about the structures of uh group dynamics and power
00:51:44.600
in in the past and how that's and they make it sound completely harmless so circumvent say fine
00:51:50.980
going off the non-verbal thing then what i'm talking about call it whatever you want is what
00:51:56.880
led those students at emerson to do this and what led that professor to tell us to to uh surrender
00:52:04.660
our white privilege that's what i want to examine the ideology that leads to that you can call it
00:52:09.200
whatever you want and they're going to try and go off on this thing just keep them on the rails
00:52:13.340
absolutely because the more you investigate it you go oh you have to be disconnected from reality
00:52:20.700
in order for this to seem like it makes sense which is why discussions on twitter and social
00:52:27.920
media are so post-modern is because they're fundamentally disconnected from reality
00:52:33.000
ridiculous ideas can live in social media because they're not applied to the real world because
00:52:38.920
they're they're in the they're in the ether they're in the digital age if you know what i mean yes
00:52:43.160
yes that's why i love the format that i am playing with because it circumvents the strategy where
00:52:50.980
they'll claim no one's saying that no one is making that argument well i'll show you the
00:52:55.180
words coming out of their mouth and then comment on it and then cut to them doing it again my
00:52:59.840
favorite video I've ever made was the postmodern professor talking with Joe Rogan and it was like
00:53:04.280
you couldn't you couldn't if you described it no one would believe you so I have I can't this is a
00:53:08.600
narrative a law of narrative the central law of screenwriting show don't tell I can show I can't
00:53:14.980
tell you about it because you won't believe it I can show you though absolutely because we've had
00:53:20.280
Adam Carolla on the show many times and one of the points Adam makes is like the most sensible
00:53:24.900
people are those people who work with their hands like we can talk about postmodernism and go oh
00:53:29.400
You know, the aesthetic beauty of a banana nailed to the wall was compared to a Caravaggio, but you can't go to your carpenter and go, what is a centimeter?
00:53:39.620
Right. Find where the rubber meets the road. So like we were just doing with critical race theory, find a tangible point.
00:53:45.700
That professor said this to me in that room. Where does the rubber, the trans conversation debate?
00:53:56.840
Not the theory portion of it or how I feel about it, it's like, how are we going to actually
00:54:01.420
implement this where the rubber meets the road?
00:54:03.460
Warren, do you have any thoughts on why humanity is at a point now where this way of thinking
00:54:12.740
What is it about modernity or the condition of humanity at this moment that means that
00:54:18.200
people are capable of thinking this is a useful way to think.
00:54:22.600
We had a big transformation in the 60s, my parents' generation. The Vietnam War had a big impact.
0.82
00:54:28.600
Postmodernism introduced from France became very appealing because of that transformation. That
0.78
00:54:34.040
generation became the administrators. That's the dean at the college, that generation. That's my
00:54:38.520
parents. They're on board with all... It's fun talking to them because it quickly dismantles,
00:54:43.960
but they're still um and what was the transformation why did the vietnam war have
00:54:49.480
this well because people i think because people viewed the vietnam war right or wrong as a big
00:54:53.320
injustice in a a miscarriage of power and it put them on edge it's we had world war ii very
00:55:01.080
different that i mean the narrative has shifted drastically it's so different than from world war
00:55:07.000
ii to there that i think culturally music the counterculture and there's cool things about
00:55:12.920
all that like i like jimi hendrix on it's i think that was yes the turning point that has now led
00:55:19.560
to the the generation in control and now we're seeing a completely new generation the destiny
00:55:26.040
his audience who are pushing for literally they're literally we need to they're claiming we we need
00:55:33.080
to do what they did to hunter biden because and he i was listening to his moderator try and talk
00:55:39.960
to destiny concerned about the radicalization violent threats being like why do we need to make
00:55:46.440
things up when they're doing things wrong already they believe there's enough to point where this guy
00:55:51.080
believes they're actually if they're doing things wrong we should be able to point to it which seems
00:55:54.760
reasonable if you're going to try and arrest someone you should be able to point something
00:55:58.040
destiny's response is yet no but they're too clever for that so we have to make it up it's
00:56:03.560
literally like i'm going to make a video about it and show you him saying that again show don't tell
00:56:07.480
people won't believe it but they're saying we need to like lock them up at any cost it doesn't matter
00:56:11.880
because for the greater good essentially and that's why these skills are so important because
00:56:17.960
they are a really effective tool against radicalization and we've seen people young
00:56:24.200
people particularly be radicalized radicalized into progressive leftist movements we're now
00:56:28.520
seeing people getting radicalized on the right yes and these tools are very effective for fighting
00:56:34.280
back against that yes understanding the laws of narrative hopefully will help with that i think
00:56:38.680
but like so i just we should touch on this i hope i didn't alarm me with the death threat thing the
00:56:43.000
guy who was kind of going a little bit crazy i all right well like i don't know if you saw that
00:56:47.960
i did i have good security so i wasn't too worried about it yeah but what was interesting about that
00:56:52.280
is that i've had people since then messaging me saying this guy has been harassing me for a long
00:56:58.120
time even on the left tilly middlehurst who kind of rose to notoriety from debating charlie kirk
00:57:03.400
like the opposite emailed me the other day she's like this guy thank you for posting that this guy
00:57:08.840
has been creeping me out people are really concerned but i had no idea about any of that
00:57:15.000
but that is but you're right that is the movement that's that's happening well i mean one of the
00:57:20.440
things with the internet as well is uh i think it's created a space for activating a lot of
00:57:27.560
of people who are just mentally not very well and uh it you know people are able to develop these
00:57:34.840
kind of parasocial relationships that are both positive and inverted commas and negative in the
00:57:40.120
sense that some people think that they're in a relationship with an only fans model to which
00:57:45.000
they send money and other people think they are in a relationship with somebody who they watch
00:57:49.640
online that they don't like and um i remember what was that movie with robert de niro about
00:57:56.360
baseball was it called the fan have you ever seen that yeah i think i think it's called the fan i
00:58:02.360
think yeah i think he basically de niro is a big fan of this baseball player yeah you remember this
00:58:08.520
and and he sort of feels like they're in a relationship and he's trying to help him out
00:58:12.120
and he ends up doing all kinds of crazy stuff and i think what the internet has done is it's kind of
00:58:17.640
created a tool for weaponizing mental illness and and if you oh if you were like an alien that came
00:58:24.200
down from another planet and read the comments on the average tweet and you just went through
0.96
00:58:30.600
the comments you would just go you know schizophrenia psychosis you just go bum bum bum
0.97
00:58:35.520
because you know i always say this like there's a lot of mentally ill people and they're mostly
00:58:41.240
on the internet and and that's what i think and i'm not saying this in a disparaging a derogatory
00:58:45.860
way i just think there are a lot of people that use politics now as well to kind of fulfill all
00:58:52.180
these things and cope and deal with issues that they need real help with, to be honest.
00:58:58.680
We were talking about this just a moment ago, and I forgot a major component of this, which
00:59:04.800
When I started to get into the space of viral video, I recognized, whoa, there's little
00:59:09.820
more powerful than the ability to connect with an audience, which is one reason that
00:59:13.600
school fears it so much, because you can't buy it.
00:59:21.460
And I think there's this psychological phenomenon where if there's 10 people looking up, you're
00:59:26.060
going to look up and see that something occurs with online people, celebrities in general,
00:59:35.520
You take some, any of these personalities, they'll say something and it's because of
00:59:41.460
the surrounding narrative and we can't separate the characters.
00:59:45.000
So we're seeing it through the lens of that narrative.
00:59:47.460
And I'm just thinking like you, because I was struggling this with myself when I first
00:59:51.120
was like no one's going to care if i make such a mundane observation but the same a mundane
00:59:56.720
observation in the hand in the mouth of someone else they're viewing it through that narrative
01:00:02.000
and it it takes on a whole nother meaning i think that has something to do with it this
01:00:08.720
and there's something deeply psychological about it where we if you get out your you reach a point
01:00:14.240
where someone is famous for the sake of being famous at that point it's like a struggle for
01:00:19.280
them until then you see actors kind of break through that threshold until that point it's
01:00:23.680
all about the roles but once they cross that threshold of perceived value it's we want to
01:00:29.280
watch them because it's leonardo capro whoever it is because they're famous that's a whole nother
01:00:34.960
threshold and there's like something actually switches psychologically and do you think that's
01:00:38.720
the point at which those people now feel like they have to have opinions on stuff that probably
01:00:44.320
otherwise they wouldn't express what i think happens is that they're climbing the ladder to
01:00:48.160
that threshold by those opinions and then once they're invested that's their business and now
01:00:54.000
they are going to defend those opinions because it's not their opinions they're defending it's
01:00:57.360
their business well it's been great to have you on uh before we head to uh substack where our
01:01:02.240
audience get to ask you their questions what's the one thing you think we're not talking about
01:01:05.760
that we should be double slit experiment in quantum physics are you familiar with the double
01:01:11.440
slit experiment are you francis no i'm not i won't take up the time no no take up the time yeah well
01:01:18.640
i it is the i have this chapter in the book where logic ends and it's the one that's sticking in my
01:01:24.720
mind the most because there's so much about reality that is illogical so as someone who's
01:01:30.240
striving to be logical how do i contend with where logic ends and quantum mechanics and physics seems
01:01:35.600
to be indicating that the very nature of reality behaves in a way at the atomic level that defies
01:01:41.360
logic the double slit experiment they take an electron you would expect these two slits imagine
01:01:46.700
a paintball gun it's firing between these you would imagine the paintballs would create two
01:01:51.620
lines where they fit through the slits and it's splattering everywhere else that's not what we get
01:01:55.040
only when the electrons know they are being observed and if you this sounds crazy like it's
01:02:01.200
not logical in quantum the math like we can observe this there are many lectures on youtube
01:02:06.620
where they will you can listen to physicists break this down takes 10 minutes but or you
01:02:11.340
delve into it deeper to me it's it's and it's we can we know it's happening so there's something
01:02:18.060
about the our consciousness interacting with the very fabric of reality that is extremely exciting
01:02:26.060
to me and you're saying logic is not the only force in the universe no there's the logos i
01:02:30.780
think there is a deeper reality beyond what we can observe within the logos that's very interesting
01:02:36.940
Interesting. I was going to make a joke about anyone who's married knows logic doesn't always
01:02:40.880
work, but let's head over to Substack. Head over to triggerpod.co.uk where Warren's going to answer
01:02:47.100
your questions. Given your time as a teacher, what is one vital change you would implement
01:02:52.980
in North American high schools if you had the power to do so?