TRIGGERnometry - Why Digital ID Is Dangerous

00:00:00.760 This was not in the manifesto. We didn't vote for this.

00:00:04.100 They are claiming that this is about illegal immigration.

00:00:07.280 And that makes zero sense.

00:00:08.860 The government is literally brazenly lying to you.

00:00:12.140 They then gaslight you.

00:00:13.680 And another thing that's more pertinent is how safe is this data going to be?

00:00:18.120 Stam is not in charge.

00:00:19.580 We have a government by Blair who is pulling the strings in the background.

00:00:23.540 The company that is going to potentially do this.

00:00:30.620 Who's it run by?

00:00:32.100 I think it's Ewan.

00:00:33.360 Ewan Blair.

00:00:34.620 Oh, that's interesting.

00:00:35.640 Yeah.

00:00:36.460 Imagine you have this infrastructure of control and then apply it to recent events.

00:00:42.160 Well, look, let's just have some barriers at the entrance to the area.

00:00:45.240 And we'll scan everybody in for everyone's safety.

00:00:48.360 And before you know it, you've basically created the infrastructure for the government

00:00:52.120 to punish people for having a different opinion.

00:00:55.980 This is not a left versus right issue.

00:00:58.200 This is about your ability to do things that the government doesn't approve of.

00:01:03.460 It's super dangerous.

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00:01:25.520 So, Francis, we didn't plan to do one of these conversations between you and I every week,

00:01:32.080 but they are turning out very popular.

00:01:34.840 And also, the issues that we feel passionate about do come up once a week now.

00:01:40.640 And over the weekend, out of the blue, by the way, this wasn't in the Labour manifest

00:01:45.180 or anything, Keir Starmer has come out with digital ID cards.

00:01:50.000 Yeah.

00:01:50.520 And I think that's a very important point that you've raised there.

00:01:54.880 This was not in the manifesto.

00:01:56.740 We didn't vote for this.

00:01:57.920 We didn't agree to this.

00:01:59.740 And we were kind of blindsided.

00:02:02.120 I think everybody was.

00:02:03.380 Nobody really predicted that Starmer was going to raise this.

00:02:07.160 And before people go, oh, you know, the Tories would say, oh, we disagree with this.

00:02:13.960 A lot of Conservatives actually agree with this.

00:02:16.620 William Hagen, the Times, wrote a piece defending it.

00:02:19.480 Kemi said that this is a debate that we need to have.

00:02:22.060 She is against it, though.

00:02:23.920 She is against it.

00:02:24.800 From what I saw, OK, maybe.

00:02:26.340 But certainly, Chris, the Shadow Home Secretary is another one who says we need to talk about this.

00:02:32.280 So the idea that this is bipartisan isn't simply untrue.

00:02:37.260 That it's partisan.

00:02:38.000 Sorry, that it's partisan.

00:02:38.960 It's simply untrue.

00:02:39.960 And also, surprise, surprise, the Lib Dems are in agreement with it.

00:02:43.200 I don't know.

00:02:43.620 I spoke to my Lib Dem MP this morning.

00:02:45.780 He's against it.

00:02:47.480 So that's very interesting.

00:02:48.520 So there is a lot.

00:02:51.120 I don't think it's interesting that we started with this.

00:02:55.620 Let's park the politics for a second.

00:02:57.460 Let's just talk about the issue.

00:02:59.220 The issue is the thing that actually really matters.

00:03:02.500 And we should probably just talk about what it is.

00:03:08.020 They're basically proposing to have a bunch of your information in one place connected to a digital identity.

00:03:14.480 And these exist in a number of European countries, in a lot of Eastern European countries, in Romania, I think in Estonia, and a bunch of countries.

00:03:22.400 And the argument in favor of them is that they make life easier.

00:03:26.660 You can have all your stuff in one place.

00:03:29.000 It also gives the government the opportunity to keep a connection between, you know, your health records and your employment and a bunch of other things.

00:03:36.340 And it's true that, you know, if you get all the information about people in one place, it does make it easier for government to do things.

00:03:45.680 On the other hand, we have a government that locks people up for tweets, shuts you in your home because there's a bad flu going around, and thinks half the country is far right, quote unquote.

00:04:03.880 And the other thing about it is they're lying about what this is for.

00:04:10.200 And this is the biggest red flag in all of this.

00:04:12.420 They are claiming that this is about illegal immigration.

00:04:17.280 They are claiming that they will introduce these cards, and then you'll have to show them when you apply for a job or when you want to rent a house, for example.

00:04:26.700 And that will stop illegal immigration.

00:04:30.180 And that makes zero sense.

00:04:31.840 It makes actually no sense at all.

00:04:33.880 We know that there's up to a million illegal immigrants in the country, and the government knows who many, if not most, of them are, not least because a lot of them are staying in hotels and private rentals that we are all paying for as taxpayers. 0.95

00:04:48.860 So we know exactly who they are, and yet they're still here.

00:04:52.060 They're not being removed, and more are coming every day.

00:04:54.740 So the reason we have an illegal immigration problem is not that we can't identify them.

00:05:01.120 It's that we're not removing them.

00:05:03.500 And this has got, basically, they're just straight up, the government is lying to you.

00:05:07.920 That is what they're doing.

00:05:09.060 This has nothing to do with illegal immigration.

00:05:11.000 And this is the other piece about this, is this isn't a Keir Starmer policy.

00:05:15.460 That's why it's come out of the blue.

00:05:17.200 That's why it wasn't in the manifesto.

00:05:18.680 But this is something that Tony Blair tried to introduce in 2005.

00:05:22.820 He's then created a think tank, which is funded predominantly by Oracle.

00:05:26.880 And it has a budget of like $150 million or pounds, which compared to a lot of, to most think tanks in this country is like 100 times as much, maybe 300 times as much as most of them, which have a budget of like 4 or 5 million.

00:05:45.020 So it's a hugely influential thing for advancing Tony Blair's ideas.

00:05:50.440 And we basically now have, what we've realized this week is, Stam is not in charge.

00:05:55.040 But we have a government by Blair, who is pulling the strings in the background, doing this crazy thing.

00:06:01.860 So Tony Blair was still fairly popular in 2005 when he tried to pull it.

00:06:05.880 He couldn't do it.

00:06:06.800 Yeah.

00:06:08.160 And now this deeply unpopular government is attempting to do this.

00:06:14.340 This makes no electoral sense whatsoever.

00:06:17.060 It's just not that it doesn't make electoral sense.

00:06:19.120 It doesn't make any literal sense.

00:06:20.620 Because if you actually want to control immigration, illegal immigration, then what do you do?

00:06:25.040 Right.

00:06:25.420 You make sure that we don't have an open border.

00:06:27.520 We effectively have an open border.

00:06:29.100 That's what we do.

00:06:29.980 You actually design or change the legal system so that we can deport illegal immigrants. 0.99

00:06:36.000 We cannot deport illegal immigrants.

00:06:38.140 We've seen time and time again that I think the first flight deporting illegal immigrants from this country left and it was empty.

00:06:45.180 We are in a state where the systems that we have are not fit for purpose.

00:06:52.040 So this idea that you're going to somehow tackle illegal immigration by bringing an ID card, it's a fantasy, quite frankly.

00:07:00.620 And also as well, what's really interesting is this is revenue generation.

00:07:04.540 So every time a company is caught employing an illegal immigrant, they're going to be fined £60,000.

00:07:11.780 Also in 2023, April 2023, the Home Office did an investigation in which they found two out of every five fast food drivers were illegal immigrants.

00:07:22.760 So already, this is a country that has a £30 billion deficit.

00:07:29.280 We've got a £30 billion deficit.

00:07:31.200 And we've explored this right the way through Trigonometry's history as to why we've spoken to economists.

00:07:36.420 We've spoken, we did a brilliant interview with Fraser Nelson talking about the fact that so many people are unemployed,

00:07:43.640 so many people are on sick benefits, benefits, sickness, all the rest of it, unemployment.

00:07:48.740 That creates a massive hole.

00:07:52.200 There's only so many times that you can raise taxes in order to plug that.

00:07:57.140 But the reality is there's not a lot of juice left in the orange.

00:08:00.860 We have been taxed up to our eyeballs and we're getting poorer and poorer and poorer.

00:08:06.220 So what else can we do?

00:08:07.800 Well, let's bring this in and let's look at these companies that are employing illegal immigrants and let's actually then start fining them. 1.00

00:08:15.580 Because that's another way of generating revenue.

00:08:17.440 It's interesting.

00:08:18.380 I'm not convinced that that's the motivation.

00:08:21.020 I think for Blair and his institute's ideological and also from what I've read, the company that is going to potentially do this.

00:08:34.340 Who's it run by?

00:08:35.820 I think it's Ewan.

00:08:37.080 Ewan?

00:08:37.940 Blair.

00:08:38.320 Oh, that's interesting.

00:08:39.360 Yeah.

00:08:40.420 I mean, so you've got ideological personal motivations as well.

00:08:45.440 Yeah.

00:08:45.620 I don't think it's about revenue generation.

00:08:48.860 I think it's about ideology.

00:08:50.680 I think Tony Blair is a technocrat.

00:08:53.600 He believes basically that the people at the top need to decide everything themselves.

00:08:59.020 And if you could have total control over everybody, everything would be wonderful.

00:09:03.840 This is a Chinese model.

00:09:05.600 And what's wrong with that?

00:09:06.920 Exactly.

00:09:08.040 And you can get a lot done.

00:09:10.160 It's just what you're doing is you're building control infrastructure.

00:09:14.540 That's what this is really about.

00:09:15.700 It's about building the infrastructure of control so that then you can control people's behavior.

00:09:19.980 And you don't need to be a genius.

00:09:23.660 And also, you don't need to be on a particular side of the political spectrum to see what a danger this is.

00:09:31.500 So the example I would use is if you are, we have, you know, our origins are very broad from left to right.

00:09:37.320 If you are somebody who's watching this or listening to this who thinks Nigel Farage is a far right Nazi fascist, whatever, unlikely that you're listening to us.

00:09:47.360 But nonetheless, let's say you believe that.

00:09:50.080 Are you sure you want to hand over control of this to someone like him who's currently on course to be the next prime minister?

00:09:58.520 It doesn't make any sense.

00:10:00.120 It makes zero sense at all that you would want this level of power given to a government that you think is fascistic.

00:10:07.120 So that's one aspect of it.

00:10:09.720 I think it's something that people across the political spectrum can unite around.

00:10:13.260 And the other thing is just use your imagination for one second.

00:10:18.280 Imagine you have this infrastructure of control and then apply it to recent events.

00:10:24.780 For example, we just obviously I went along and filmed at the Tommy Robinson protest and rally.

00:10:33.100 And there was a lot of genuine concern, I don't think for good reasons, that that might become violent.

00:10:37.980 Now, do you not think that if this sort of thing existed, the police wouldn't say, well, look, let's just have some barriers at the entrance to the area and we'll scan everybody in to make for everyone's safety, to make sure we know who's in there.

00:10:51.340 And so people know that they've been kind of registered in.

00:10:55.420 So if they misbehave, we'll know who they are much more easily.

00:10:58.900 The general public will agree to that if the control infrastructure is in place.

00:11:04.100 And now you've got effectively all Palestine action protests.

00:11:08.840 Let's make sure that anyone goes in there.

00:11:10.740 We're scanning their identity.

00:11:13.280 Let's make sure we know who they are.

00:11:15.440 And then before you know it, basically the government's got the information of anyone who's part of any movement, really.

00:11:21.080 And they can go, OK, well, you are a Tommy Robinson supporter.

00:11:25.460 Let's make sure we pay extra attention to your Twitter account.

00:11:28.160 Let's make sure we double check your Facebook posts.

00:11:30.380 Let's make sure we look at this.

00:11:31.580 Let's look at.

00:11:32.020 And before you know it, you've basically created the infrastructure for the government to punish people for having a different opinion, to track them for having a different opinion.

00:11:41.740 It is incredibly dangerous.

00:11:44.000 Of course.

00:11:44.480 And there will be people who go, look, this isn't this a bit excessive, Constantine.

00:11:48.480 But just, I know we want to forget about the pandemic.

00:11:51.680 I know the pandemic is a hack topic to some people.

00:11:56.740 But just think back to what happened during the pandemic.

00:12:00.440 A lockdown happened.

00:12:01.620 You're meant to go for one walk a day.

00:12:03.220 That was it.

00:12:04.240 One walk a day.

00:12:05.240 Now imagine if every one of your movements is tracked.

00:12:08.520 All of a sudden, you could step out and you do your one walk.

00:12:12.220 But let's say your daughter's sick and you all just, you've had an argument with the wife or whatever.

00:12:17.660 And you just want to go for a walk.

00:12:19.540 Well, the moment you cross the threshold of your door, you're being tracked.

00:12:22.720 It could even be, and bear in mind, the bank account's linked to it.

00:12:25.800 So before you know it, boom, you're 50 quid fine.

00:12:28.760 The money's come out of your bank account by the moment you've crossed the threshold.

00:12:32.520 This is giving out to the government data and movements and whatever else, which is deeply, deeply worrying.

00:12:42.080 And the thing that always worries me when I listen to governments is they talk about convenience.

00:12:47.900 Because when they talk about convenience.

00:12:50.240 And safety.

00:12:51.000 And safety.

00:12:51.820 But also it's convenience.

00:12:53.220 Because they look, it's so easy.

00:12:54.720 Why wouldn't you do it?

00:12:55.980 They said, it's just one tap.

00:12:58.760 It's just one tap.

00:12:59.700 Hey, look, but we're just going to do one scan.

00:13:01.820 All right.

00:13:02.680 But here's the question.

00:13:03.900 What are you going to do with my data?

00:13:05.220 And another thing that's more pertinent, is even probably more pertinent, is how safe is this data going to be?

00:13:12.060 We know how safe it's going to be.

00:13:14.240 Some twat who works in the civil service is going to leave his laptop on a train like they do every week.

00:13:19.180 And then all of this information is going to get leaked to say nothing of the fact that it's all going to go to China. 0.70

00:13:24.000 It's all going to go to Russia.

00:13:25.200 And a lot of people will be like, well, your government has all your data already.

00:13:28.640 What are you worried about?

00:13:29.360 It's not actually as much about data, although this will bring all your data into one place.

00:13:33.940 So it will make it easier to steal all of it and connect all the different pieces of data to you.

00:13:39.160 The reason to worry about it is creating the infrastructure where you have to show this thing to access things.

00:13:47.560 Because what that then creates is effectively a structure in which you can be denied access to certain things based on your identity.

00:13:55.440 For example, as you say, during the pandemic, if you've been identified as a two-walk-a-day person,

00:14:00.920 or maybe you chose not to get vaccinated, well, then you are denied access to X, Y, Z.

00:14:08.300 And I don't remember.

00:14:10.160 In fact, sorry, I remember very well.

00:14:13.220 There were people, quite a lot of people during the pandemic going, well, if you've not been vaccinated,

00:14:17.480 you shouldn't be allowed into a hospital.

00:14:19.500 You shouldn't be allowed this.

00:14:20.880 You shouldn't be allowed that.

00:14:22.020 I do not want to give that power to a government that has consistently proven,

00:14:27.340 and not just this government, but an entire political class that has consistently proven itself,

00:14:32.400 not only untrustworthy, but authoritarian every time that there's been an opportunity for them to be authoritarian.

00:14:39.340 And it's not just government as well.

00:14:41.400 Think about the people during the pandemic.

00:14:43.980 The people who were like, do you know what?

00:14:45.800 Why do you need rights?

00:14:47.260 Yeah.

00:14:47.360 Well, was it 10% of people said that they wanted nightclubs shut down forever?

00:14:52.100 Permanently.

00:14:52.500 Permanently.

00:14:53.200 Irrespective of COVID.

00:14:54.460 Irrespective of COVID.

00:14:55.620 I think it was actually 18% at one point.

00:14:57.700 It went up and down.

00:14:58.860 Yeah.

00:14:59.320 So you've got this swathe of the population that are authoritarian,

00:15:04.280 that really relish telling people what to do, what to say, how to think.

00:15:10.400 And it's not just that.

00:15:11.960 They snitched.

00:15:13.040 That was the thing that I found so despicable, is that they loved snitching,

00:15:19.040 and they loved grabbing any little bit of power whatsoever.

00:15:22.640 But back then, we were relying a lot of it on human beings.

00:15:27.060 Now, you were giving all that data away to the government.

00:15:33.500 To the government.

00:15:34.860 This is a government, like I said before, that is economically compromised,

00:15:38.800 that really needs to fill this black hole.

00:15:40.860 Now, this is a way to make money.

00:15:44.980 This is another way to make money.

00:15:46.660 I really believe that.

00:15:48.200 I don't agree.

00:15:48.920 I don't think it.

00:15:49.620 First of all, it's not going to make money.

00:15:51.340 Implementing it is going to cost so much money that they'll never make it back.

00:15:55.480 I don't think this is about money.

00:15:56.860 It's worse.

00:15:57.480 It's worse than that.

00:15:58.400 It's about ideology.

00:15:59.500 I know, but I think it's also a part of it, is revenue generation.

00:16:02.520 Look, I have no problem with employers getting fined for hiring illegal immigrants. 1.00

00:16:07.020 I have no problem with that.

00:16:08.040 I think that should happen.

00:16:09.160 Absolutely.

00:16:09.520 I have no problem with the government. 0.98

00:16:11.220 And if the government makes money from that, fucking brilliant. 0.90

00:16:13.740 The problem is this isn't going to achieve that. 0.95

00:16:16.560 This isn't going to achieve any of that.

00:16:17.820 What it will do is you won't do anything about the problems they're claiming this addresses

00:16:21.740 for the reasons we've covered.

00:16:23.080 But what it will do is create the digital control infrastructure, which then lays the groundwork

00:16:29.500 for all your activities and all of your behavior to be managed by the government and for you

00:16:35.860 to be rewarded or disincentivized in relation to certain behavior.

00:16:40.200 That is the Chinese social credit system, where if you are a good citizen, quote unquote, you

00:16:46.200 can do things that other people cannot do.

00:16:49.120 And if you're a bad citizen, quote unquote, you can't even buy a train ticket to go to a

00:16:53.380 different city or you can't drive into a certain town or you can't do.

00:16:57.220 So this is where it's going.

00:17:00.400 And look, if we lived in a country in which the government had consistently proven itself

00:17:07.840 to err on the side of civil liberties, if we lived in a country where the government had

00:17:12.360 consistently proven itself responsible with rights and data that people entrust to it,

00:17:19.240 some of the arguments about convenience and health care outcomes and all of that,

00:17:24.460 they might make more sense.

00:17:26.260 But we do not live in that country.

00:17:27.540 We live in a country, like I said, in which the government and their police authorities

00:17:32.340 arrest comedians for jokes.

00:17:34.740 You want to give them the ability to control your behavior?

00:17:39.540 Uh-uh.

00:17:40.500 No.

00:17:41.320 No.

00:17:42.240 No.

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00:19:10.780 Look, I completely agree.

00:19:12.520 And if you look, actually, we interviewed a few years ago, Dr. Carissa Vellis, who is

00:19:16.860 president, she is professor of AI and ethics at Oxford University.

00:19:21.500 And she actually made the point that China are scaling back their data collection.

00:19:27.580 They're scaling back.

00:19:28.920 And why are they scaling back?

00:19:30.000 Because they realize it's a security risk.

00:19:32.720 They realize that inevitably this kind of data will be leaked.

00:19:36.940 So this idea that somehow, and you've used the word again, safety, that we're going to make 0.91

00:19:42.960 a better, safer society by giving up all of this data is, quite frankly, ridiculous.

00:19:48.640 Because it is going to be leaked.

00:19:50.880 And it will be leaked.

00:19:52.420 And if you think about this, you're going to have all your data in one central location.

00:19:57.680 What's the location going to be?

00:19:59.600 It's going to be, it's going to be on your phone.

00:20:01.600 It's going to be, I live in London, mate.

00:20:04.760 My phone's getting nicked every four days.

00:20:07.200 What's going to happen now?

00:20:08.460 And you're going to have intelligent criminals.

00:20:10.140 They take the phone, they go, they're going to be able to access it.

00:20:12.840 All of a sudden, they're going to wipe your data or take all of it.

00:20:16.120 They're going to take your data, give it to illegal immigrants who will then use your 1.00

00:20:19.060 data to get a job and to rent a house.

00:20:20.960 Yeah.

00:20:21.300 And you're not going to solve illegal immigrants. 0.99

00:20:22.760 This is another thing.

00:20:23.700 During the pandemic, I know a lot of people that got a vaccine passport,

00:20:28.900 that were not vaccinated.

00:20:30.100 Yeah.

00:20:30.640 Because it was very easy to get one of those.

00:20:33.500 Yeah.

00:20:33.740 For a few hundred quid.

00:20:34.940 So you think you're going to stop illegal immigration.

00:20:39.120 What?

00:20:39.780 People who've paid thousands of pounds to get across the channel,

00:20:42.600 they're not going to spend an extra hundred quid to get Francis Foster's digital ID on their phone.

00:20:47.540 Yeah.

00:20:47.860 What are you talking about? 1.00

00:20:49.300 It's a fucking joke. 1.00

00:20:50.460 It's a joke. 1.00

00:20:50.980 This is all a complete sham.

00:20:53.680 It's a pretense.

00:20:54.680 And it's got nothing to do with illegal immigration.

00:20:56.600 The government is literally brazenly lying to you.

00:21:00.660 I don't use these words often.

00:21:02.980 In this instance, they are simply lying.

00:21:05.880 That's what's happening.

00:21:07.080 And also as well, we need to look at history.

00:21:09.120 As you know, when was the last time we had ID cards?

00:21:11.920 It was during the Second World War.

00:21:14.280 And you look, you go, that was fair enough.

00:21:16.360 We were in a war.

00:21:17.440 It was an existential threat.

00:21:19.000 We needed to know who was here legally, who wasn't.

00:21:22.520 Security risk.

00:21:23.500 Perfectly valid.

00:21:24.200 When did it get rid of them?

00:21:26.600 1952.

00:21:27.980 Seven years after World War II ended.

00:21:30.840 And it got rid of them because, and this is a, there are people who are very cynical and go,

00:21:35.360 look, what can the average person do?

00:21:37.640 The campaign to get rid of ID cards started with a man who was driving down the road

00:21:44.680 and he was stopped by the police.

00:21:46.960 And he had a very humble job.

00:21:49.420 He was a dry cleaner, in fact.

00:21:50.940 And the police asked him to see his ID card and he refused.

00:21:55.480 And he said, we are not at war.

00:21:58.120 And from then, it was a two-year court case before it was revoked.

00:22:02.460 And that is a very powerful reminder for people, which is, it's very easy to give up your rights.

00:22:09.600 It's very easy to say, you know what?

00:22:12.100 We don't need this.

00:22:13.800 Take it.

00:22:14.420 I want to feel safe.

00:22:16.220 We're in danger.

00:22:17.620 We've got, you know, we're threat from under Islamic extremists or whatever the argument is that you want to make. 0.95

00:22:23.580 Here, have it.

00:22:25.000 It's easy to give it up.

00:22:26.160 It is desperately difficult to give it back.

00:22:29.520 Look at things like taxation.

00:22:31.340 They always bring in taxation at moments of crisis or wars.

00:22:35.240 They stay.

00:22:36.460 Look at 9-11. 1.00

00:22:37.400 You still can't take a fucking bottle of water through security. 0.98

00:22:41.840 You still have to get, like, these things do not get rolled back. 0.98

00:22:46.080 And they certainly, if they ever do, they don't get rolled back easily.

00:22:49.320 But if you introduce a digital ID card scheme, that's never going away.

00:22:53.720 It's never going to get scrapped.

00:22:54.940 Once the government has plowed, you know, 30 billion pounds into it, that is never, ever going away,

00:23:00.960 especially once you have made it convenient, quote-unquote, for people to do certain things.

00:23:06.060 People will just, that will carry on.

00:23:08.340 So I see a lot of complacency about this issue, which is one of the reasons we wanted to push back on it as strongly.

00:23:13.820 People are saying this will never happen.

00:23:15.700 There's a lot of opposition in parliament.

00:23:17.500 It'll not get through the Lords.

00:23:19.620 It'll this, it'll that.

00:23:21.640 You don't know that.

00:23:22.460 And if this goes even some way towards completion, it's super dangerous.

00:23:28.200 It's super dangerous.

00:23:29.280 And all it is, it's Tony Blair and his ID. 1.00

00:23:32.620 He climbs out of his fucking coffin every few years and comes up with some evil scheme. 0.99

00:23:39.160 Yeah. 1.00

00:23:39.620 Do you know, have you heard, by the way, I don't know if you saw this over the weekend,

00:23:42.200 there's talk about him being in charge of Gaza.

00:23:44.400 Yeah.

00:23:45.440 Yeah, as if Gaza hasn't suffered enough.

00:23:47.160 I'm all for punishing Hamas, but this is going too far. 1.00

00:23:51.540 Yeah.

00:23:52.080 Anyway, I just think, objectively, he left parliament as, and was widely seen by, certainly by our

00:23:58.980 generation, as one of the most evil men in charge of Britain ever. 0.95

00:24:03.080 Mm-hmm.

00:24:03.340 And now he's behind the scenes pulling all the strings.

00:24:06.060 And his son is set to profit from it with his business.

00:24:10.020 Like, this is completely unacceptable. 0.99

00:24:12.180 It's ridiculous. 0.98

00:24:13.200 And it has to be a person. 0.90

00:24:14.140 By the way, if Starmer tries to do this, this will be the end of him.

00:24:19.560 We are going to make this his poll tax.

00:24:21.940 Yeah.

00:24:22.080 We are going to, because this is, not only is it something that isn't massively popular

00:24:29.040 with his own party, there's a strong debate within his own party.

00:24:32.880 This is very unpopular with a lot of people across the political spectrum.

00:24:36.900 Now, if you look at the polls, you know, it's half and half, blah, blah, blah.

00:24:40.380 But that's because people don't know what this is about.

00:24:42.460 They're being told this is a way to stop illegal immigration.

00:24:45.240 I guarantee you, if we have a national debate about this issue, those polls will change very

00:24:51.000 quickly when people start to understand what this is really about, which is taking control

00:24:55.320 of your life by the government.

00:24:56.920 That's what this is about.

00:24:58.120 And when people see that, I think it's fundamentally antithetical to the British spirit.

00:25:02.000 I really do.

00:25:02.940 Yeah.

00:25:03.280 I look, and we rejected it last time.

00:25:05.840 And this is something that has always been more popular in Europe.

00:25:09.960 They've, you know, there's a lot of European countries that have had ID cards for a long

00:25:13.200 time.

00:25:13.560 It's partly, look, it's part of the reason, you know, joking aside, while we've always

00:25:18.800 been apart, we're physically removed from Europe by a channel.

00:25:23.860 Thank God.

00:25:24.240 Yeah, exactly.

00:25:25.360 And we've always kind of had that suspicion.

00:25:28.360 And you've got to remember as well, like people go always, you know, the government and

00:25:33.380 they see it as kind of benevolent.

00:25:35.120 I hope, but it sadly wasn't the case, but I hope people woke up after COVID.

00:25:42.060 It wasn't the case for a lot of them, but some of them did.

00:25:45.160 You cannot trust government.

00:25:47.420 Government acts within its own interests.

00:25:49.680 It doesn't act within yours or the individual.

00:25:53.500 And you have to think as well.

00:25:55.560 You've used the example of Farage.

00:25:57.360 But let's say if we get somebody in, because this country is going down a very dark path

00:26:02.780 economically.

00:26:03.500 It's going down a very dark path socially.

00:26:06.340 It's going down a very dark path culturally.

00:26:09.020 We know with cultures and we know with societies that when the economics start going south, when

00:26:15.800 people start really struggling, when they start really struggling to do the basics, put food

00:26:22.300 on the table, light the house, keep the house warm, they become more conservative.

00:26:26.720 And not only do they become far more conservative, they become authoritarian and they gravitate

00:26:32.080 towards a strong man because a strong man will come in and they'll say, you have been

00:26:36.340 failed, which of course I have.

00:26:37.820 The politicians don't care, which of course they don't.

00:26:42.120 I'm going to sort this out.

00:26:43.500 And in order to do that, I need to suspend your desire to be free for the next X, Y.

00:26:48.240 X, Y.

00:26:49.180 But what do you want?

00:26:51.480 And people will go for it because they're desperate.

00:26:54.840 And when you're desperate, you are going to grab at anything.

00:26:59.100 I talk to ordinary people from left, right and centre.

00:27:02.800 I talk to academics right the way through to cab drivers, to brickies, to whatever else.

00:27:07.880 Even those who are not political, they all know something is wrong.

00:27:12.320 And there is this slowly rising feeling of panic in this country because we are going

00:27:19.900 down a dark path.

00:27:21.480 And this hastens us in that direction, in my opinion, and it's going to be used for

00:27:27.020 nefarious purposes.

00:27:28.840 Right.

00:27:29.020 And that's why people need to understand this is not a trivial thing.

00:27:33.900 The petition to oppose this is over 2 million people signed as we speak.

00:27:39.980 People need to speak to their MP, write to their MP.

00:27:42.620 This is not one you can sit out.

00:27:44.400 Like on this one, you actually have to go and do something.

00:27:47.320 Talk about it on social media, write to your MP, sign the petition.

00:27:51.100 And let people know that this is not acceptable.

00:27:54.960 This is not acceptable.

00:27:55.760 And this isn't just a left or right issue.

00:27:59.000 This is...

00:27:59.560 And, you know, Carissa Valise, you mentioned our episode with her.

00:28:02.900 She talked about one of our super viral clips on our channel is her talking about why more

00:28:10.920 Jews were killed in Holland than were in France during World War II by the Nazis.

00:28:16.460 And the basic reason is the Dutch had very good records of people by ethnicity and the French,

00:28:22.920 because of their ideological view, didn't.

00:28:25.840 When you collect information in this way, you don't know who's going to be using it and you don't know what purpose they're going to be using it for.

00:28:34.860 And so when we talk about this issue, people have to be really cognizant of the fact this is very, very important.

00:28:42.140 This is very important.

00:28:43.080 So don't just think, oh, the government said it's about illegal immigration, therefore it's not about...

00:28:48.400 This has got nothing to do with illegal immigration.

00:28:51.040 If you want illegal immigration stopped, as you rightly said, you close the border and you deport people who you know are here illegally. 0.98

00:28:57.480 We're not doing either of those things.

00:28:58.880 In fact, if you speak to insiders inside the asylum system, they are now being pressured to approve a lot of...

00:29:09.180 To clear the backlog.

00:29:10.280 Do you know how they clear the backlog?

00:29:11.240 No.

00:29:12.060 They approve all applications.

00:29:13.940 I mean, that would clear the backlog.

00:29:15.040 But that's what they're doing.

00:29:16.040 Yeah.

00:29:16.820 That's been going on.

00:29:18.000 Yeah.

00:29:18.160 So what you are now having is effectively they're not dealing with the actual problem and they're using that problem to introduce things that have got nothing to do with solving the problem that they've always wanted to do.

00:29:31.300 Mm-hmm.

00:29:33.160 This just...

00:29:33.840 This can't happen.

00:29:35.360 This can't happen.

00:29:36.120 And politically, if Starmer pursues this, this has to be made the end of him.

00:29:40.980 Yeah.

00:29:41.540 And I think it's also...

00:29:42.760 Because there'll be people...

00:29:44.040 And look, it's a brilliant example by Carissa.

00:29:46.280 She was a great guest.

00:29:47.400 But people will be lying, oh, man, but it's the Nazis. 0.78

00:29:50.200 And that was really extreme.

00:29:52.300 And, you know, how many times has that happened in history?

00:29:54.300 The reality has happened a lot of times.

00:29:55.500 But let's just say...

00:29:56.540 But let's say...

00:29:57.420 Let's attack the Nazi point. 0.92

00:29:58.760 It's like...

00:29:59.200 But people...

00:29:59.760 What people need to remember about the Nazis is we call them evil. 0.91

00:30:02.800 They thought they were doing good.

00:30:03.980 They thought that actually what they were doing would bring about a better, healthier, stronger society.

00:30:12.000 This is what you needed to do in order to achieve utopia.

00:30:15.880 Right.

00:30:15.980 Utopians don't go away.

00:30:18.620 That mindset, that type of person still exists.

00:30:21.700 Yeah.

00:30:21.900 It will continue to exist right the way through humanity.

00:30:25.640 People on both the left and the right have utopian mindsets.

00:30:30.220 And so if you have that mindset and you think, well, these people are far right, shall we just say. 0.98

00:30:37.260 These Tommy Robinson supporters, they're evil Nazi fascists. 0.56

00:30:40.780 Or these Palestine action supporters. 0.97

00:30:43.420 Yeah.

00:30:43.940 Right?

00:30:44.600 Yeah.

00:30:44.740 If that's your perspective.

00:30:47.020 This is the really important thing to point out here.

00:30:49.300 This is not a left versus right issue.

00:30:51.600 No.

00:30:51.780 This is about your ability to do things that the government doesn't approve of that are perfectly your right to do.

00:30:58.440 Which is go out and protest, go out and have the opinion that people don't like, etc.

00:31:03.960 That's what this is about.

00:31:05.960 Exactly.

00:31:06.880 And so what you then have is a government to go who might genuinely believe these things.

00:31:14.580 They might genuinely believe that these Palestine protesters are, you know, they're anarchists and they want to destroy Western civilization. 0.79

00:31:22.760 We have to protect Western civilization.

00:31:24.980 Of course we do. 0.97

00:31:25.620 The people on the right, they're Nazis and fascists. 1.00

00:31:28.540 They want to beat up and kill ethnic minorities and brown people. 1.00

00:31:32.700 Well, we need to protect them. 0.98

00:31:33.900 So what better way of doing that than by tracking them and ensuring that by tracking them, no violence and no harm is caused.

00:31:43.220 Yeah.

00:31:43.400 But it's not just that.

00:31:44.560 I mean, we've just released a great episode with Catherine Porter talking about the lunacy of net zero, which I think increasingly people are starting to understand.

00:31:51.920 Not only is it bad for us, it's making us poorer and less safe.

00:31:56.740 It's actually increasing global carbon emissions.

00:31:59.840 Yeah.

00:32:00.280 Because we have to make things in other countries to a lower environmental standard and then ship them back here.

00:32:06.440 So net zero is complete lunacy.

00:32:07.720 Obviously, but the Labour Party believe it.

00:32:10.100 Ed Miliband believes it.

00:32:11.580 So wouldn't it be convenient, Francis, if you could have a digital ID that allows you to start your car so you don't need to carry around keys?

00:32:18.880 Wouldn't that be convenient?

00:32:19.820 Yeah.

00:32:20.160 Okay.

00:32:20.760 Well, so every time you use your car, wouldn't it be great if you could just tap your phone and then the car starts?

00:32:25.880 Wouldn't that be wonderful?

00:32:26.640 Yeah.

00:32:26.960 That would be wonderful.

00:32:27.580 And by the way, that would allow us to really encourage you to be green.

00:32:32.680 And therefore, we can track how much driving you're doing and encourage you not to do it.

00:32:36.940 Wouldn't that be brilliant?

00:32:38.000 Yeah.

00:32:38.640 Wouldn't it be brilliant if you apply this to everything?

00:32:41.440 You know, what if you too much meat?

00:32:42.820 What if you do this?

00:32:43.620 What if you do that?

00:32:44.540 And before you know it, the entirety of your behavior is now being controlled by the government.

00:32:50.800 That's the people need to understand that may not be the first step once this infrastructure is created.

00:32:56.820 But that is what will happen if the infrastructure is there.

00:33:01.480 Because if the infrastructure is there, there will be an endless number of ways to make use of it, to take charge of your life and to tell you what to do and what not to do.

00:33:10.240 And you have to think as well, the elite's grip on power is weakening.

00:33:15.040 We can see that through the rise of reform.

00:33:17.400 We can see that right the way through Europe with the rise of dissident insurgent parties.

00:33:23.860 So their grip on power is weakening.

00:33:26.180 They know that it is.

00:33:27.700 They can see that.

00:33:29.160 So what is somebody whose grip on power is weakening?

00:33:33.700 What do they want to do?

00:33:35.520 They want to reinstate their power.

00:33:38.340 They're going to cling on for dear life.

00:33:39.480 They're going to cling on for dear life.

00:33:41.500 And what better way to do that than to make sure that all our movements are tracked?

00:33:46.520 Because you walk down the streets of London, infrastructure is crumbling, crime is through the roof, everything is dirty, people are angry and they're frustrated.

00:33:59.480 And what is becoming more and more apparent is that governments don't have the answers to these problems.

00:34:05.880 They just don't.

00:34:08.020 So if you can't solve the problems, then what are you going to do?

00:34:12.660 You're going to solve the people who are getting angry or frustrated or protesting about these problems.

00:34:17.840 You're going to pretend to solve their problems.

00:34:19.520 Yeah.

00:34:19.700 And also deal with the people who are upset about it.

00:34:23.420 Yeah.

00:34:24.060 That's your point.

00:34:25.140 Yeah. 0.64

00:34:25.440 And you're going to deal with the people who are upset about it because it's easier to deal with, you know, people who go out, you know, wearing an England fag, you know, and arrest them, take the England flag off them or of the Palestine protesters, kettle them, throw them on the floor. 0.77

00:34:38.820 It's easier to do that than to solve a 30 billion black hole deficit or to deal with any of the other myriad problems.

00:34:45.700 So actually deal with illegal immigration. 0.52

00:34:47.560 Yeah.

00:34:47.760 Or to deal with illegal immigration.

00:34:50.060 Because either you can't, you don't want to, or whatever reason it may be, or a combination of all of it.

00:34:56.480 Look, in some ways, I actually do hope Starmer goes for this because this is suicide politically.

00:35:02.480 This is electoral suicide.

00:35:03.780 If they pursue this, it will be the end of his government.

00:35:08.360 That's what needs to happen here.

00:35:10.220 Yeah.

00:35:10.560 And we're going to keep talking about it.

00:35:12.760 Like I said, people need to write to their MP.

00:35:14.540 They need to sign the petition and they need to make themselves heard on this issue.

00:35:18.040 This is not trivial.

00:35:20.360 This is real.

00:35:22.220 It's dangerous.

00:35:23.380 And we cannot allow this to happen in our country.

00:35:26.180 Absolutely.

00:35:27.020 And, but I think you make a very good point because this could be Starmer's poll tax moment.

00:35:31.360 For those who don't know the poll tax, the poll tax came in at the end of Margaret Thatcher's government.

00:35:36.820 And that was a moment where there was riots.

00:35:39.900 People were very angry because they felt it was very unfair.

00:35:43.260 Rightly so, in my opinion.

00:35:44.360 And that signaled the end of Margaret Thatcher's government.

00:35:47.600 She was removed by her own ministers because they thought her position had become untenable.

00:35:52.160 This is a government which is just over a year into power.

00:35:55.740 There's already been a breakaway party established.

00:35:58.440 Whatever you may think about them.

00:35:59.780 And we do lots of jokes about whatever we think about, whatever you may say.

00:36:03.640 And look, they don't seem particularly well run.

00:36:05.500 But what is undeniable is they represent a swathe of the population and a significant swathe of the population.

00:36:11.960 And it's more than significant swathe of the Labour Party.

00:36:15.380 So they're getting removed.

00:36:17.400 They've been removed.

00:36:18.500 So Starmer has gone from a huge majority, what looked like anyway, when he came in, but was very precarious.

00:36:25.180 Once you started to open the proverbial bonnet of the car.

00:36:28.760 But then as well, you have people who are coming out now and being openly critical of this government.

00:36:35.940 So this is a government that is running on fumes.

00:36:38.980 So what I hope and what you hope is this is the moment where everything breaks.

00:36:45.360 Where we go, you know what, this can't carry on like this.

00:36:48.840 That's one of the two options. 0.99

00:36:50.120 The other option is they stop pursuing stupid policies and start doing good things. 0.99

00:36:54.540 That would be another good option. 0.99

00:36:55.900 I mean, you're looking at me like I'm saying something crazy because I am.

00:36:59.740 Yes.

00:36:59.960 But I'm just trying to make the point.

00:37:02.500 I am not desperate for Keir Starmer to end his premiership at this point.

00:37:10.240 Because I actually, I don't think there is a ready to go strong alternative.

00:37:15.920 Yeah.

00:37:16.740 Conservatives are in disarray.

00:37:19.320 Lib Dems are not going to be elected.

00:37:22.140 Reform aren't ready.

00:37:23.400 No.

00:37:23.960 They're nowhere near ready.

00:37:24.820 They're working towards the next election or whenever they think that is.

00:37:29.520 But they're not ready now.

00:37:31.780 So I actually, I'm not particularly desperate for Starmer to remove himself in this way.

00:37:37.420 But I just, I tell you, if they pursue this, this will produce a resistance force of the kind that they haven't seen that will be the end of his government.

00:37:47.580 You, the trigonometry audience, understand how vital free speech is.

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00:38:51.560 The platform that doesn't just talk about free speech.

00:38:54.320 It protects it.

00:38:55.520 Look, I think I actually think you make a very good point because when people go to me, what do you want Starman's government removed?

00:39:03.860 And I'm, I, people aren't going to believe this.

00:39:07.940 I wanted the government to succeed.

00:39:10.100 So do I.

00:39:10.820 I wanted that government to succeed.

00:39:12.800 I do not believe the churn of prime ministers that we have seen from David Cameron.

00:39:19.120 If you think about we had David Cameron, we had Theresa May.

00:39:22.200 We then had, uh, after Theresa May, we had, was it, was it Liz Truss who came?

00:39:28.560 No, no, it was Boris Johnson.

00:39:30.380 Then it was Liz Truss.

00:39:31.820 Then it was Rishi Sunak.

00:39:33.640 Then it was Keir Starmer.

00:39:35.340 That is not healthy.

00:39:36.980 If you look at a company, if the company, if we were to invest in a company and you did due diligence and you found out they had eight or nine CEOs in the space of however many years, a decade, you'd be like, that is a company and real problems.

00:39:51.220 That is a company that is fundamentally unstable.

00:39:55.140 I am not going to invest in that.

00:39:57.340 Why would anybody invest in the UK?

00:39:59.640 When you look at the churn of prime ministers, that shows that we have got real problems, real problems.

00:40:08.300 And the real problem you keep pointing at, and that's where I really agree with you.

00:40:11.780 The real problem is the economics of this, because one of the things that, you know, you talk about wanting the Labour Party and the Labour government to succeed.

00:40:21.260 Anyone who leads our country, I want them to succeed. 0.90

00:40:24.140 And if they're far left, I don't give a shit if they're doing things that I agree with, right?

00:40:31.580 But the problem is that the Labour government's one unique advantage that it had over the Tories is when they were attempting to deal with the welfare bill. 0.96

00:40:43.100 And you've got to understand this in context, right?

00:40:45.380 Britain, this is a statistic from 2014, so this is probably much worse now.

00:40:50.720 Europe, including Britain, is 12% of the world's population, 25% of the world's GDP, and 50% of the world's welfare spending.

00:41:02.460 That's why Europe's in economic trouble, because you cannot run an economy when you are spending four times what your percentage of the population is in welfare spending.

00:41:17.000 You just can't.

00:41:17.880 And this episode of Fraser Nelson makes that point very well.

00:41:21.380 And Labour were uniquely positioned to tackle that problem, because unlike the Tories, they're much harder to accuse of hating the poor and doing these things because they hate the poor.

00:41:31.620 But what happened is they tried to cut welfare spending, and they couldn't, because their own MPs rebelled against them.

00:41:39.660 And so what we've ended up with now is a government that promised not to raise taxes on working people that is, at the very next budget, going to raise taxes on working people.

00:41:49.740 And if they don't do that, which they will, but if they don't do that, we're probably heading for the fiscal crisis sooner than we anticipated.

00:41:58.240 If they do do that, we're still heading for a fiscal crisis, but it'll be later.

00:42:03.320 And so the fact is that they haven't solved the big economic challenge, as was obvious they weren't going to.

00:42:11.940 They haven't changed productivity, which they were not going to.

00:42:15.280 And this, on top of all of that, that will be the end of them.

00:42:21.660 And look, we need to be fair as well.

00:42:24.840 This isn't solely Labour's making.

00:42:26.500 No, of course not.

00:42:27.840 You know, this has been a long time.

00:42:30.580 This has been the proverbial kicking the can down the road for a very, very, very long time.

00:42:37.660 And nobody wanted to do it because what we have is a generation of politicians who are simply unwilling to take some very hard, unpleasant truths.

00:42:48.460 And it's like life.

00:42:50.300 You can go along in your own little delusional world, in your own, whatever it may be, not making the right choices, believing that consequences aren't going to affect you.

00:42:59.580 But let me tell you something.

00:43:01.000 Eventually, reality hits.

00:43:03.340 And the longer you put off reality with your delusions and not wanting to be honest with yourself or others, the harder reality is going to hit you.

00:43:12.360 And we've been doing this for decades.

00:43:14.800 And unfortunately, and I sometimes think that, you know, people go, oh, you enjoy it.

00:43:19.680 I don't enjoy doing this.

00:43:20.920 I'm proud to be English.

00:43:22.640 I love this country.

00:43:25.280 And I love being here.

00:43:27.000 And I've always had an affinity with here.

00:43:30.640 But I'm terrified about what's going to happen.

00:43:33.260 I'm genuinely terrified.

00:43:34.660 Because when this economic crisis comes, I'm not an economist, I think it's going to make 2008 look like, you know, a day spent in your overdraft.

00:43:46.100 Well, not least because we are not going to be able to do what we did in 2008, which has helped people out.

00:43:52.980 We're not going to be able to do that.

00:43:54.940 Nor, by the way, people keep comparing it to the IMF bailout in the 70s.

00:43:59.040 We're too big an economy now to be bailed out.

00:44:01.100 This is the point Alistair Heath made when we interviewed him.

00:44:03.240 Right.

00:44:04.140 So it's a bad situation.

00:44:06.540 And look, I completely agree with you.

00:44:09.320 But there is one group of people that you missed out in your analysis who also deserve criticism.

00:44:14.860 And that's us, the British public.

00:44:16.560 Yeah.

00:44:17.380 It's not just the politicians.

00:44:19.140 The politicians are lying to us because we want to be lied to.

00:44:22.860 That's why they're lying.

00:44:23.980 Let's be honest about that.

00:44:25.180 Yes.

00:44:26.120 The British public have to take responsibility and say, we have allowed ourselves to be deceived.

00:44:32.460 The reality is we cannot afford what we are now doing and we are going to have to rebalance our economy.

00:44:39.940 And part of that means getting welfare down to a manageable level, which will be very, very painful.

00:44:45.680 It will be very, very, very painful.

00:44:47.700 As, in your metaphor, you know, if you're an addict, isn't it really painful to finally admit to yourself that you're an addict and have to go through a recovery and all the rest of it?

00:44:59.900 It's really awful.

00:45:01.220 Right.

00:45:01.500 It's awful having to admit to yourself all sorts of things that we've all had to do at one point, admitting that, you know, you haven't been as good a husband as you should have been.

00:45:09.720 Or maybe you were dishonest with somebody that you should have been honest with.

00:45:12.860 Or maybe you were not responsible with your money and now you're in debt or whatever it is.

00:45:18.000 Those moments are always very painful.

00:45:21.120 But the only way you get out of that problem is ultimately admitting that you have one.

00:45:26.900 Britain has a gigantic problem with overspending.

00:45:30.680 And until we deal with that, we will not recover.

00:45:33.680 And to use the addiction metaphor, one of the things when you dry out or you go sober is for a lot of people, you suffer withdrawal symptoms.

00:45:43.400 Very unpleasant withdrawal symptoms.

00:45:46.100 Heroin addicts call it cold turkey.

00:45:47.700 Alcoholics call it drying out.

00:45:49.640 And those are horrendous physical symptoms that you suffer as a result.

00:45:54.540 And unfortunately, if you have a welfare bill that we have, where people have been used to not working, you know, getting money from the government, not having to get up in the morning, not having to go to work.

00:46:10.460 But all of a sudden, for that warm blanket to be ripped away from you and for you to have then to be faced with the cold, harsh realities of the employment market and what it's like to have a job, people aren't going to respond well to it.

00:46:25.620 They're going to have to learn.

00:46:26.960 They're going to have to learn.

00:46:27.600 Because the other thing is, you know, the reason this pretense has been maintained for so long is the British public have been told, oh, it's the bankers, the bonuses, the bankers, the bonuses, the rich need to pay their fair share, all of this stuff.

00:46:40.460 You and I do reasonably well after seven years of really working hard and struggling and whatever.

00:46:46.940 I just, you know, I just paid my tax bill for the last year.

00:46:51.100 I, if you include payments on account for next year, I'm paying more than 50% of what I earned last year in tax.

00:46:57.860 How sustainable, you think you can take that up to 70 and people won't leave?

00:47:02.120 It's not going to happen.

00:47:03.520 People who are doing well are already paying a hell of a lot of tax.

00:47:07.260 There is not much more you can get out of them.

00:47:10.460 And the gap is still massive.

00:47:12.840 The debt is massive.

00:47:13.660 And there's still a deficit, which means the debt is growing all the time.

00:47:16.580 So you can't fix it by, quote unquote, making the rich pay their fair share.

00:47:21.120 The rich already pay a massive share of tax.

00:47:23.560 And you're just not physically going to get a lot more out of them.

00:47:27.600 And so we just have to face reality, which is going to be very difficult for people.

00:47:31.920 But that is the problem.

00:47:33.820 That is the central problem.

00:47:35.260 It is.

00:47:36.980 And what is very, on the one hand, it's catchy.

00:47:40.800 I find it perversely fascinating and highly worrying.

00:47:44.480 So I was in a she-she part of North London. 1.00

00:47:49.460 There's posters on the bus stops for the Revolutionary Communist Party.

00:47:54.920 I was in Islington.

00:47:56.580 Very nice part of them.

00:47:57.800 There were posters.

00:47:58.140 That is where you'd put posters for the Revolutionary Communist Party.

00:48:01.800 Absolutely.

00:48:03.000 But you just go and then you look at Zora Mandani.

00:48:07.260 When these things happen, and if people don't understand why they're happening,

00:48:13.380 they become more and more vulnerable to extremists because they get angry

00:48:17.300 and they've got every right to be angry.

00:48:19.340 They feel they've been cheated.

00:48:20.420 And, of course, in many ways that they have.

00:48:22.440 So they're very, very open to someone coming on, to someone coming along,

00:48:28.100 offering simple solutions to complex problems.

00:48:31.000 And that's another danger.

00:48:33.440 That's a real danger because the young people in this country are thinking to themselves,

00:48:38.080 well, hang on a minute.

00:48:40.040 I'm working.

00:48:41.140 I don't know.

00:48:41.600 I work really hard.

00:48:42.760 I don't actually get paid a lot.

00:48:44.680 But let's say, you know, I work.

00:48:47.060 You know, I work.

00:48:48.420 I don't get paid a lot.

00:48:49.820 What does, I do get paid.

00:48:51.680 Most of it goes in rent.

00:48:53.000 Then there's bills, which have skyrocketed.

00:48:55.340 Then there's food.

00:48:57.200 And I can't buy a house.

00:48:58.840 I can't settle down.

00:49:00.420 And at the end of it all, what am I going to be left with?

00:49:03.100 And then someone comes along and goes, well, this is a fault of capitalism.

00:49:06.620 Right.

00:49:07.080 And actually, what you need to do is you need to realize that the socialist project is actually,

00:49:12.800 we are all going to be much fairer and it's going to be much better.

00:49:16.840 And then there's nobody on either side putting forward the case for capitalism, by the way.

00:49:21.060 So all you've got are these people.

00:49:23.420 And some of them are very smart.

00:49:24.600 They're very charismatic.

00:49:25.820 They're very good at tapping into people's anger and resentments.

00:49:30.080 And then that will start to mushroom.

00:49:32.100 And for people who go, oh, it's not, it can't happen here.

00:49:36.020 I've seen it happen.

00:49:37.200 I've seen it happen in another country.

00:49:38.700 Why can't it happen here?

00:49:39.880 Why can't there be a movement with a very, very, very hard left?

00:49:46.160 And then when you think about if you have a hard left government,

00:49:49.700 they tend to quite like these type of authoritarian things.

00:49:53.400 Of course.

00:49:54.340 Of course.

00:49:55.520 Rob Henderson wrote a former guest of ours.

00:49:57.960 He wrote a brilliant article of, I think, for the free press called The Revolt of the Rich Kids.

00:50:03.080 And his thesis is that people like Mamdani, they're not actually,

00:50:07.360 and this is backed by data and evidence,

00:50:09.460 they're not actually being voted in by poor people.

00:50:12.560 What they're voted in by is people who have done reasonably well,

00:50:18.940 but they thought they would do much better.

00:50:21.380 And this is a phenomenon called elite overproduction.

00:50:24.200 If you have the target, back to Tony Blair,

00:50:27.160 he had the target of sending 50% of people to university.

00:50:30.200 What you then create is lots and lots of people who have both the debts

00:50:35.320 and the expectation that they are going to get the best paying job in the country.

00:50:40.660 And they're just not because half the country can't have the best paying jobs in the country.

00:50:45.420 It's practically not possible.

00:50:47.020 So what you have is a lot of people who actually are not that uncomfortable financially,

00:50:51.920 but they're very, very uncomfortable because they don't have the status of success

00:50:56.960 that comes with being at the top.

00:50:58.780 And it's them that is driving a lot of these far left ideologies as well.

00:51:05.260 So there is that dimension.

00:51:06.440 But ultimately, you know,

00:51:07.700 the one thing that we actually can do without hurting people is Scrap Net Zero.

00:51:12.560 That was a conversation that we had with Catherine Porter.

00:51:15.440 I thought it was really, really special and wonderful.

00:51:18.560 And she's great.

00:51:19.840 And that is one way you can actually do it without hurting lots of ordinary people.

00:51:25.120 In fact, you would make it easier for them because their household energy prices would fall.

00:51:30.400 Another thing, of course, is people will say,

00:51:32.300 you know, when I had that debate with Jimmy the Giant,

00:51:34.160 we've taken it down because, you know, he wanted us to and he kind of apologized for his behavior.

00:51:39.040 But one of the things he was throwing out there is, you know,

00:51:41.820 Net Zero costs X amount of money.

00:51:43.660 Nobody knows how much Net Zero costs.

00:51:45.340 Nobody knows because nobody can measure how many businesses either failed,

00:51:50.660 left or didn't start because they knew that they couldn't function in a country

00:51:55.340 with the highest electricity prices for company,

00:51:58.000 for corporate electricity prices in the developed world.

00:52:01.400 Nobody knows what the cost of that was.

00:52:02.860 But I guarantee you it is massive, massive.

00:52:06.240 So unless we create an environment in which people are actually able to start businesses,

00:52:11.860 employ people and then pay very high taxes.

00:52:14.460 But the thing is, you know, I mentioned paying more than half of my income.

00:52:17.580 I actually don't mind.

00:52:18.920 I genuinely don't mind.

00:52:20.200 I don't mind paying 50% tax.

00:52:22.460 I don't.

00:52:23.580 I don't mind.

00:52:24.460 What I mind is that money being wasted on things.

00:52:27.540 And I mind an environment in which doing business is impossible because of everything else that's going on.

00:52:34.640 I've got no problem paying high taxes.

00:52:36.500 If the response to that is good infrastructure, good public services for myself, citizens,

00:52:42.000 a cohesive society, a properly enforced border, that's great.

00:52:47.500 Who would really?

00:52:48.560 Jane, look, there are some people who don't like paying tax at all.

00:52:51.060 I've got no problem paying high taxes.

00:52:52.440 If it is aligned with, look, I don't mind paying, you don't make, let me rephrase,

00:53:00.300 you don't mind paying a lot of money for a restaurant meal.

00:53:03.300 Yeah.

00:53:03.840 You don't?

00:53:04.560 No.

00:53:05.160 If the meal is good.

00:53:06.280 Yeah.

00:53:06.940 That's, so if you want to create a high tax economy, I'm fine with that.

00:53:12.260 Provided the high taxes are buying you something.

00:53:14.620 Right now, what they're buying you is a lot of people on the scrap heap of unemployment 0.96

00:53:18.320 and who should be in employment and lots of public projects and this fucking digital ID thing. 0.91

00:53:27.600 Again, we've spoken a lot about society works by contracts, social contracts.

00:53:34.940 To go back to the case of the students, 50% of you are going to go to university.

00:53:38.960 What's a social contract?

00:53:40.140 You're going to go to university, you're going to graduate, you're going to get a good job.

00:53:42.960 Turned out not to be the case.

00:53:44.520 We broke the contract.

00:53:45.580 When it comes to high tax society, what's the contract?

00:53:50.060 You're going to pay 50 or maybe a bit more of your salary to the government,

00:53:54.400 but the government are going to deliver world class.

00:53:56.660 They love that phrase.

00:53:57.540 World class, public infrastructure, public health, whatever it may be.

00:54:01.060 Sign me up.

00:54:01.640 I'm down for that.

00:54:02.340 Okay.

00:54:02.900 Right.

00:54:04.040 But when people start breaking social contracts, especially government,

00:54:08.360 and not just once, but twice, three times, four times,

00:54:11.720 on the most basic fundamental level, and not that they just break it.

00:54:15.780 This is what gets me really angry.

00:54:18.700 They then gaslight you.

00:54:20.400 They then gaslight you.

00:54:21.840 I had a meeting with someone, and this person is a Londoner.

00:54:28.820 She's a black woman growing up in Brixton.

00:54:31.780 And as I was all walking out of the meeting, I had my phone in my pocket,

00:54:35.360 and she went, Francis, could you just put your phone back in there?

00:54:38.760 She goes, London isn't as safe as it used to be.

00:54:42.000 And I went, Melissa, can I ask you a question?

00:54:43.440 Because you're a South London girl like me.

00:54:45.000 You grew up.

00:54:45.620 You ran about the same age.

00:54:46.960 You remember this city like I did.

00:54:50.340 It's far worse now, isn't it, than it used to be.

00:54:52.900 She went, of course it is, Francis.

00:54:54.960 Of course it is.

00:54:56.300 It's dirty.

00:54:57.220 It's dangerous.

00:54:58.060 She goes, I worry about my kids.

00:55:00.260 You go on social media.

00:55:01.960 You look at skyrocketing, the stabbings, the muggings, everything.

00:55:07.340 And those are the ones that get reported, because people are so frustrated and angry now.

00:55:11.660 They don't even report crime, because what's the point?

00:55:14.040 The only real reason to report crime is for insurance purposes.

00:55:19.300 That's it.

00:55:20.420 And then, yeah, I see Sadiq Khan say how great London is.

00:55:24.880 You're gaslighting me.

00:55:26.540 You are literally, the left love to talk about gaslighting.

00:55:29.940 Oh, you could, you know, this is gaslighting.

00:55:31.860 That's gaslighting.

00:55:32.520 And everything's, no, mate, you're gaslighting me, because I remember what my city used to be,

00:55:38.080 and this ain't it.

00:55:39.060 And I remember what our country used to be, and this really ain't it.

00:55:42.860 So we're just getting gaslighted by a generation of politicians.

00:55:46.040 Not just Labour, by the way.

00:55:47.560 We had it with, in fact, Kemi Bedenok.

00:55:50.580 We talked right and governed left.

00:55:52.560 Well, that's gaslighting, isn't it?

00:55:54.960 Isn't it?

00:55:56.040 Yeah. 0.97

00:55:56.160 And digital ID is the perfect example of that, where it's got absolutely fuck all to do with 0.84

00:56:01.460 illegal immigration, but they're telling you it is. 0.96

00:56:04.120 It's just a lie.

00:56:05.380 They're just lying to you.

00:56:06.680 That's what's happening.

00:56:07.920 They're just lying.

00:56:08.580 So, again, sign the petition, write to your MP, speak out about this.

00:56:13.360 This has to be stopped.

00:56:15.140 It's the only way.

00:56:16.480 Look, and I go back to the example of the dry cleaner who got stopped by the police in 1950,

00:56:23.800 and went, you know what, no, and said something along the lines of, this is not the done thing,

00:56:30.740 which is very British, but it just shows, because there is a cynicism amongst people,

00:56:37.740 and I understand why.

00:56:39.060 There's a helplessness where people go, what difference can I make?

00:56:42.960 I'm telling you right now, if the more people that actually stand up and say, enough is enough,

00:56:49.760 I'm not going to be gaslit, I'm not going to have these apps that are brought in to track my movements,

00:56:57.740 to make everything easier and safer, when we know it's patently bollocks.

00:57:02.160 And by the way, we haven't talked about old people.

00:57:04.080 We've got a geriatric aging population, like my parents.

00:57:08.360 How are they going to access all of this?

00:57:10.060 What, you're going to get them to do it?

00:57:11.740 It's not going to happen.

00:57:12.680 And so, all of these things, you've got a choice now.

00:57:17.620 You have a real choice.

00:57:19.200 What is it that you want to do?

00:57:21.180 Because we see the trajectory.

00:57:23.560 We see the way that this country is going.

00:57:25.680 It's undeniable now.

00:57:26.940 I don't care if you vote your party, or reform, or Labour.

00:57:30.780 We all know the direction this is going in.

00:57:32.960 So you have a choice.

00:57:34.160 You either stand up, and you say, no more, in a peaceful, appropriate manner.

00:57:39.720 Or you just give away even more of your rights.

00:57:44.280 But like we've said before, time and time again, governments will take your rights.

00:57:51.020 You're going to face one hell of a fight to get it back.

00:57:54.060 It's going to take years, and it's going to take legal action.

00:57:56.680 Because once government have got power, they will do everything that they can in order not to relinquish it.

00:58:04.020 It really is that simple.

00:58:05.320 I don't care if you're Conservative, you're Labour, you're Lib Dem.

00:58:07.900 They want power.

00:58:09.000 Well, we're going to do our best to oppose it.

00:58:11.640 We've invited Silky Carla from Big Brother Watch, who's a regular on our show, to talk about this very soon.

00:58:17.600 And I hope people who agree with us, who hear the arguments that we're making, act in any way they can to help stop this.

00:58:25.840 Because that is what needs to happen.

00:58:27.500 And no doubt, by next week, there'll be something more outrageous for us to talk about.

00:58:31.360 And if not, then we'll see if we can do this from the Gulag, mate. 0.90

00:58:34.060 Thank you.

00:58:42.560 Well, let's look.

00:58:43.520 Thank you.

TRIGGERnometry - September 30, 2025

Why Digital ID Is Dangerous

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