Dennis Prager grew up in Brooklyn, New York, went to a Christian yeshiva and went to an Orthodox Jewish high school, and then went on to become one of the most famous journalists in the world. But what led him to flee the big city? And why did he flee it?
00:01:22.300Well, and we've known each other for a while, and you were one of the people we were very keen to hear from.
00:01:28.100We want to have a very substantive and in-depth conversation about what the West is and its Judeo-Christian roots and all the things that you are very eloquent on.
00:01:37.100But before we do, we'd love for our audience to know a little bit about you and how you came to be who you are, think what you think.
00:01:44.500What's been your journey through life?
00:01:45.820So I'll give you the really big picture, and you'll tell me if you want more details.
00:02:08.920There are many wonderful people there, like everywhere, but that is the big – New Yorkers think that New York is the center of the universe, yet it is among the most provincial places I have ever been to.
00:02:27.540And I've been to 130 countries in all 50 states.
00:08:45.300So I have to justify my moral failure.
00:08:52.140So I either have to acknowledge it's a moral failure that I didn't fight communism or whatever, or Hamas.
00:08:59.020The hatred of Israel, Israel is fighting evil.
00:09:01.660So vast chunk of humanity is not fighting that evil.
00:09:07.660So they must diminish Israel's moral status and claim that, oh, yeah, well, you know, Hamas is not a wonderful organization,
00:09:17.140but the poor Palestinians, what are they going to do?
00:09:20.040So this is a mirror of what I grew up with.
00:09:24.680Israel is the anti-communist of my youth, fighting the evil of our day, which is Islamic terror, as you know, in Britain.
00:09:36.520I mean, and what we just saw in the Netherlands.
00:09:38.240I mean, it's just unbelievable that it's the Israeli press, which is not hysterical, called it a pogrom against Israel fans of an Israel team that was there.
00:09:48.460So it's human nature not to fight evil.
00:18:51.360At Trigonometry, we value expertise and integrity in everything that we do.
00:18:56.300That's why we've partnered exclusively with Augusta Precious Metals.
00:19:00.260Having met them personally, it's obvious to me why they're the best in the business.
00:19:05.760Their expertise and commitment to transparency make them the ideal partner for anyone who's serious about protecting their wealth.
00:19:12.820They help people like you protect their savings with gold, a tangible asset that has held its value through every financial storm, ever.
00:19:23.220With Augusta, it's not just about buying gold.
00:19:25.820It's about understanding why gold matters.
00:19:28.560They provide a free, no-strings-attached info kit that explains how diversifying your savings with a gold IRA can help shield your retirement savings from inflation and economic uncertainty.
00:19:44.060Augusta Precious Metals has earned thousands of five-star reviews and holds an A-plus rating with the BBB.
00:19:50.960Their commitment to trust and transparency is second to none, pulling customer service above all else.
00:19:58.420Don't wait for the next financial crisis to hit because one is coming sooner or later.
00:20:03.020Text TRIGGER to 35052 to get your free info kit on gold IRAs and start securing your financial future today.
00:20:10.780Once more, that's an SMS to 35052 and simply quote the word, trigger, because when it comes to your wealth, preparing for the future is always the smartest investment.
00:20:25.380In effect, you have the origins with the beginning of the collapse of the Roman Empire.
00:20:32.600You have in 325, the Roman Empire adopts Christianity as a state religion.
00:20:37.300And that began the long, long road to civilize the barbaric tribes of Europe.
00:20:46.280I remember listening to, this was really fascinating.
00:20:50.060I was listening to a guy give a course on the history of the Catholic Church.
00:20:53.800And he noted, and it's funny because it was like 14, 15 chapters.
00:21:02.700And the one thing I remember is, he said, there was one tribe that it was really difficult for the Catholic Church to convert to Christianity.
00:21:13.080And I'm thinking, okay, which is the Germanic?
00:21:16.520And he said, they didn't understand why it was wrong to kill.
00:24:41.460And I didn't leave my name because I'm well-known.
00:24:43.840And you never know what that could lead to.
00:24:46.780But I would have given it eventually, obviously.
00:24:48.960And she said, I just want you to know how much it meant to me that a person would leave a note that they had scratched my car or whatever, damaged my car in some way.
00:25:00.720And I told her how much her note meant to me, and I never heard from her again.
00:25:06.040All she wanted me to know was how goodness moves people.
00:25:14.840But I give you the story only to talk about human nature.
00:25:18.040It is just so much easier to do the wrong thing.
00:25:23.440I'm not talking about murder, although that's easy too, apparently, given human condition.
00:25:28.520So the West is founded, the beginnings of the civilizational aspect to civilized human beings begins with the church, which is a very flawed institution.
00:25:46.680But people who speak of its flaws, and I wrote a book on anti-Semitism.
00:25:52.160I know church anti-Semitism really well, but you have to be honest, it did a lot of good too.
00:26:02.300It's a mixed bag, but mixed means good too.
00:26:50.400The late 19th century, essentially, or parts of the French Enlightenment, but the thing I use as the example is music, because I am a musician.
00:27:03.840I conduct orchestras as an avocation, and atonal music introduced chaos.
00:27:42.340And I do happy birthday, there's no key, there's no tonality.
00:27:50.360So, Leonard Bernstein, whom I don't like, but it doesn't matter, he said something very wise, he's a great musician, said, atonal music is an oxymoron.
00:28:00.860And by the way, it's not even written any longer.
00:28:03.800It had its hundred-year take, started at Arnold Schoenberg in Europe.
00:28:08.320And, but the same in modern art, contemporary art, where, you know, you could stand on a ladder and throw paint on a canvas, and it sells for millions of dollars.
00:28:56.960And I said, I just like Maestro Gardner, I would like to bounce off a theory of mine that the death of God means we are not going to produce great music anymore.
00:32:53.140I spoke to young people in the Czech Republic a few years ago.
00:32:59.060And in front of the group, a young Czech comes over to me, said, I just want you to know, Ben Shapiro brought me to conservatism, and you brought me to God.
00:33:10.800And just a few weeks ago, I spoke at Brown University in Rhode Island, and a young student, a student at Brown comes over to me, says, hi, I'm so-and-so, I'm from India, which was apparent by his accent and his looks.
00:33:31.080And he goes, I just want you to know, I'm a Hindu, and you brought me to conservatism, and you brought me to God and Judeo-Christian values, and I'm converting to Christianity.
00:33:48.320So, this Jew got this Hindu to convert to Christianity, and it's all done because the arguments make sense.
00:33:58.060It's not, I don't have the belief, which Christians have, if you have a certain faith, you will be saved.
00:34:06.240And I respect that belief, but it's not, that's not how, that's not my approach nor my belief.
00:34:12.300I want people to adopt Judeo-Christian values to save the world, not to save their souls.
00:34:20.480That may be true, but to save the world, because we're going downhill without these values.
00:34:31.040That's what this Hindu kid came to understand.
00:34:34.280So, that's what we have, we, so you guys describe yourselves as agnostic.
00:34:46.360So, first of all, I live in the real world.
00:34:51.260Some of the greatest fighters for the values I believe in, we believe in, are secular people.
00:34:58.040You, I assume you guys are secular, given that you say you're agnostic.
00:35:03.480You know, Douglas Murray, whom I adore, I think is agnostic.
00:35:08.260I don't, I don't believe he's, he's particularly religious.
00:35:11.060So, I'm well aware, and there are a lot of religious fools.
00:37:58.420So I don't have a deference towards people who are older because of religion, but it's because of what I saw around me when I was growing up.
00:38:08.780I don't walk a woman to her car, whoever she is, in the evening because of religion.
00:38:15.940I do it because that's what my parents taught me, and so on and so forth.
00:38:20.360But I don't dispute that, you know, a very strongly held religious code is the easiest way to pass on values to the future generation, for sure.
00:39:03.240What's the argument for a religious worldview from reason?
00:39:06.960Well, I've been presenting it, and you sound like it makes sense to you that we do have moral chaos intellectually, if nothing else, but I do believe existentially as well, if there is no God.
00:39:29.400I mean, if, as, that's why I began, if God doesn't say murder is wrong, murder is not wrong.
00:39:36.240You may think it's wrong, feel it's wrong, into it it's wrong, all of that is true, but it isn't wrong.
00:39:44.440There is only opinions about what is right or wrong.
00:39:47.080And so, when this case is made, an individual may conclude, wow, look, there's no arguing against that fact, but I personally just find it very hard, I'm not saying I, Dennis, but the person may say, I personally find it really hard to believe that there is some divine presence in the world.
00:40:11.340Okay, that, and so, my answer to that person is, okay, fine, I'm not, I'm not here to persuade you there is a God.
00:40:24.920I'm here, again, as I said, I'm here to persuade you that we can't live without God.
00:40:28.680So, I would say to you, just live as if there is, and if you find it after years intellectually impossible, I'll give you an example.
00:40:40.940I mean, it just, I'm a very, I'm a big behaviorist.
00:40:44.620My book on happiness, one of my books is on happiness, and my book on happiness is totally behavioral.
00:41:07.340To take my religion, if you had Shabbat dinner, Sabbath dinner, Friday nights, for a year, it's hard for me to believe that on the 53rd Friday night, you'll be thrilled to go to the movies.
00:41:20.980Or not have the Shabbat dinner, because that's, my Shabbat dinner, the same dozen people wouldn't always invite, often non-Jews, to our basic dozen people.
00:41:37.880And we met, by the way, the entire lockdown of COVID, we missed two weeks.
00:41:42.880By the third week, we said, this is ridiculous, and we lived as if there was nothing happening.
00:41:52.220I mean, if you have that, it's like, I would say to a parent, you're tone deaf, you can't even spell Beethoven, but you should still give your kid music lessons.
00:42:12.380And a lot of, that's what parents thought in the past.
00:42:15.240Just, yeah, I don't really get into this music stuff, but I'd like my kid to at least learn about it.
00:42:25.900You should do what is valuable, whether or not you emotionally respond to it.
00:42:33.360So I always, I always tell parents, you know, okay, you're agnostic, you should take your kid to church anyway.
00:43:00.140You were, I have a strong sense, I don't know what religion your parents were, but I have a strong belief, I'm almost certain, that your grandparents had some religious commitment.
00:43:35.100But that's why I asked you about the Judeo-Christian West, because I think you, nobody honest would deny that our civilization is dependent on its religious history.
00:43:51.240But they're stupid, because if you look at it objectively, this is a system of belief, thought, let's say.
00:43:57.520Let's call it a philosophical system, even if you want to call it that, that swept the world.
00:44:03.380That millions of people fought and died to advance or defend or protect or whatever.
00:44:09.180The idea that it's not at the core of who we are, that it's not passed down from generation to generation to generation to make this world the way it is, different to other parts of the world to which, unlike most people I've been, where that isn't the case.
00:46:13.960For me, the salvation question is, and for virtually any, any Jew, is much less significant than for, for a Christian, whether Protestant or Catholic.
00:46:25.200The, the, the, um, which, which to my, my Christian listeners, the vast majority of my listeners in my national radio show in America are Christian, uh, it sounds almost bizarre.
00:46:39.940And I, and I, and I know that, and I adore these people, but I don't judge, I, I really, really don't judge people by, by theology.
00:46:49.820I, all, you know what, you know what my definition of true religion is?
00:46:56.600My definition of true religion is, do you produce good people?
00:47:00.640A religion that produces good people is a true religion.
00:47:03.760That's it, that, that, there's, it, it's, I don't know, I don't know any other way to measure what, what is a true, how, how, how can an outsider measure a true religion?
00:47:15.280I, I measure you by your fruit, which is, you know, faith without works is dead, you know, from James in, in the New Testament.
00:49:52.820So, uh, the, what happened, and, and this is, this is paradigmatic of, of non-Jews too.
00:50:04.700Jews who left the belief that the Torah was divine, uh, ended up adopting secular religions.
00:50:16.180Jews became, Jews became among the founders of every secular religion, whether it's Trotsky, uh, in, in, in the Soviet Union and communism, Marx, who was the grandson of two Orthodox rabbis.
00:50:32.480Of course, he was, he hated Jews too, but it doesn't matter.
00:50:35.960Uh, and, uh, Betty Friedan and feminism.
00:50:39.960If it's an ism, except Nazism, Jews helped found it and certainly helped lead it.
00:50:48.000As I say all the time, Jews are the most religious people in the world, but for most of them, their religion is not Judaism.
00:50:55.200And, and that, that's really, Jews don't abandon religion.
00:50:59.620They, or to use your term, they don't abandon salvation.
00:51:04.940Dennis, this is a side question, but since you brought it up, it's a question I, I, I really wanted to ask you, because I think I've, we've asked it of a number of people, both privately and publicly, and I never get a satisfying answer to it.
00:52:32.560It's the only ethnic or religious hatred that is exterminationist.
00:52:38.480Jew haters want to exterminate the Jews.
00:52:40.700Two thousand years ago, the rabbis wrote, which is said to this day by every Jew who has a Passover Seder, it's in the Haggadah, the Passover Seder liturgy.
00:52:55.300I'm debating, should I say it in Hebrew?
00:56:41.820And many, many, many non-Jews dismissed Hitler as the Jews problem to their great error because it ended up with 60 million people minus 6 million, 50, 52 million, 54 million roughly were killed by it as a result of Hitler.
00:57:02.840And the staggering ramifications of all that suffering.
01:09:56.160So there's a story in there, it's thousands of years old, that the Torah speaks about four sons, the famous four sons.
01:10:05.980Almost every Jew who knows anything about Judaism knows the four sons.
01:10:09.780So there are four sons, and this is how you speak to each of them to explain the Exodus, because Passover is about the Exodus.
01:10:16.900So there is the, let's see, there's, there's the evil son or bad son, there's the wise son, there's the son who was simple, and the son who doesn't know how to ask questions.
01:10:30.160When I was a kid, I realized there's no good son.
01:10:34.540And, and nobody pointed that out at, at the Passover Seder.
01:10:38.080There was a bad son and a wise son, not a bad son and a good son.
01:10:42.780Because the opposite of, of bad, uh, uh, isn't good.
01:10:52.160Vast numbers of people mean well and do awful things because they don't have wisdom.
01:10:56.300And there was, and here, this is a challenge to secular people.
01:11:00.400There are certainly secular people like you, and I'm not buttering you up, but like you who are wise, but there is no wise secular institution.
01:11:13.660The, the, the most secular institutions are our universities and they are the least wise institutions that we have in the Western world.
01:11:24.080There's more wisdom in, in, in, in a, in a rural Iowa church than at Harvard.