TRIGGERnometry - November 26, 2025


Why I Exposed Anti-Trump Bias At The BBC


Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 7 minutes

Words per minute

160.78561

Word count

10,787

Sentence count

823

Harmful content

Misogyny

5

sentences flagged

Toxicity

12

sentences flagged

Hate speech

14

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, we speak to a former BBC journalist who claims to have uncovered evidence of anti-Trump bias within the BBC. She shares her story and why she believes the BBC should have done more to fight back against this.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:01.000 I was aghast. I was thinking, how can they think that they get away with it?
00:00:06.000 You're manipulating time to create a lie. And how can you do that twice?
00:00:12.000 It is election interference when the producer said, you know, how did that happen?
00:00:18.000 And there was no response.
00:00:20.000 I remember you saying about your cousins from Venezuela whispering.
00:00:25.000 Yeah, that's what we used to do at the BBC. And I'm seeing a completely different world than you are.
00:00:32.000 And you're in this bubble. And so it's true because another BBC correspondent said it's true.
00:00:38.000 It must be true.
00:00:39.000 There were conversations in the newsroom that made me think, hang on a minute.
00:00:43.000 You know, I thought we were objective here.
00:00:46.000 I'm not sure you can ever get back that trust if you tell lies.
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00:02:02.000 David, welcome to Trigonometry.
00:02:05.000 Hello.
00:02:06.000 Thanks for coming on.
00:02:07.000 In the time that we were away in the US, a massive story broke here in the UK about BBC bias.
00:02:14.000 This was covered in The Telegraph extensively.
00:02:17.000 And one of the things that a flagship BBC program did is effectively doctored a speech by President Trump around January the 6th,
00:02:24.000 which misrepresented very, very badly what he actually said on that day.
00:02:30.000 And you were the whistleblower who spoke to The Telegraph about this issue.
00:02:33.000 Thanks for coming on.
00:02:34.000 Before we get into that, tell us a little bit about your background.
00:02:38.000 How did you get into the BBC?
00:02:40.000 How long were you there?
00:02:41.000 And what did you do there?
00:02:42.000 Okay.
00:02:43.000 So the BBC part of my life was actually quite short.
00:02:47.000 I've been a graphic designer for 35 years.
00:02:51.000 I've worked at television companies.
00:02:53.000 I was head of design at Fox and National Geographic.
00:02:57.000 I've been a freelancer for probably 25 years.
00:03:03.000 And I've worked at various broadcasters like ITV and Channel 4.
00:03:08.000 And I've also done a lot within advertising agencies as well.
00:03:15.000 And so lockdown happened.
00:03:18.000 And then coming out of lockdown, I got a freelance job as a graphic designer in news and specifically Newsnight.
00:03:28.000 And I worked at Newsnight for between 2022 and 2024.
00:03:35.000 And I absolutely loved it.
00:03:37.000 It was fast paced.
00:03:39.000 But unfortunately, I have health issues and I had my fourth heart attack.
00:03:46.000 So that kind of paid to working there any longer.
00:03:50.000 Whilst I was there, I saw this thing.
00:03:54.000 Now, the Daily Telegraph broke.
00:03:56.000 Shall I talk about this?
00:03:57.000 Of course.
00:03:58.000 Of course.
00:03:59.000 So the Daily Telegraph broke the Panorama story.
00:04:02.000 And the Panorama story came from a memo, which somebody within the BBC said that there is bias within the BBC.
00:04:11.000 Specifically cited this panorama edit where it has Trump saying we're going to get to the Capitol Hill.
00:04:21.000 And then it spliced 54 minutes later and we're going to fight like hell.
00:04:28.000 We're going to walk down to the Capitol and I'll be there with you.
00:04:33.000 And we fight.
00:04:35.000 We fight like hell.
00:04:36.000 And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore.
00:04:40.000 Now it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy.
00:04:48.000 And after this, we're going to walk down and I'll be there with you.
00:04:52.000 We're going to walk down.
00:04:54.000 We're going to walk down.
00:04:57.000 Anyone you want.
00:04:58.000 But I think right here, we're going to walk down to the Capitol.
00:05:02.000 And we're going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women.
00:05:12.000 And we're probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them.
00:05:16.000 But I said, something's wrong here.
00:05:18.000 Something's really wrong.
00:05:19.000 Can't have happened.
00:05:20.000 And we fight.
00:05:21.000 We fight like hell.
00:05:23.000 And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore.
00:05:27.000 Our exciting adventures and boldest endeavours have not yet begun.
00:05:33.000 As soon as I saw that, I thought, I've seen that before.
00:05:37.000 I know I've seen that before.
00:05:39.000 So I contacted the Daily Telegraph and said, look, I've seen this clip before.
00:05:44.000 This isn't the first time they've used this clip.
00:05:47.000 And it wasn't politically motivated as it's been discussed.
00:05:53.000 You know, there's a plot to take down the BBC and it's a right-wing plot.
00:05:57.000 Yes, the Telegraph did break it.
00:06:00.000 And so I got in touch with them and I said, look, I was there.
00:06:06.000 I was doing graphics that night, not on that story.
00:06:10.000 And so it came up, the Daily Telegraph then looked for it.
00:06:19.000 And I couldn't remember when it was.
00:06:21.000 I couldn't remember that it was late in my time at BBC around about 2024,
00:06:26.000 but actually turned out to be two years earlier in 2022.
00:06:31.000 And the reason I remembered it was as they played that clip,
00:06:37.000 and it was a variation on that clip.
00:06:40.000 Trump said a little bit more like, we're going to go up to the Capitol Hill
00:06:44.000 and we're going to cheer on some of your senators or congressmen.
00:06:48.000 And we're not going to cheer so much for some of them.
00:06:50.000 And then we're going to fight like hell.
00:06:52.000 So it's pretty much the same thing that somebody had edited out,
00:06:58.000 you know, pretty much an hour and put these two things together.
00:07:01.000 Some of the events of that day are uncontested.
00:07:04.000 As Congress met to formalize Biden's election victory,
00:07:08.000 President Trump addressed a large rally of his supporters
00:07:11.000 in central Washington, D.C.
00:07:13.000 We're going to walk down, anyone you want,
00:07:16.000 but I think right here we're going to walk down to the Capitol.
00:07:19.000 And we're going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women.
00:07:28.000 And we fight. We fight like hell.
00:07:32.000 And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore.
00:07:35.000 The reason why it stuck in my memory so clearly was on the actual show that night,
00:07:47.000 there was a member of Trump's team who had actually resigned.
00:07:51.000 He wasn't in the team any longer, called Mitch McConnell.
00:07:54.000 And he said, hang on a minute, you've spliced those two things together.
00:07:59.000 And called out that edit and saying, look, this is what we're dealing with,
00:08:03.000 with American media or the mainstream media, whatever he said,
00:08:08.000 is this false depiction of Trump.
00:08:11.000 And the presenter, who I couldn't remember for the life of me,
00:08:16.000 who was on that evening, and it turned out that it was Kirsty Wart,
00:08:19.000 didn't mention anything, didn't apologize, didn't say anything.
00:08:23.000 So it was mentioned by this guy.
00:08:26.000 A bunch of different questions there.
00:08:28.000 Your video, and I'm no apologist for the president on this.
00:08:31.000 No, no, I'm not suggesting you are.
00:08:32.000 I'm not suggesting you are, but what I'm saying is that you...
00:08:34.000 Your video actually spliced together the presentation.
00:08:38.000 He said, we're going to go down and we're going to cheer on our senators
00:08:41.000 and our House members.
00:08:42.000 And then it actually goes on to saying some of them we might not be able to.
00:08:44.000 And that line about it, we fight and fight like hell,
00:08:46.000 is actually later in the speech.
00:08:48.000 And yet your video makes it look like those two things came together.
00:08:51.000 That's the type of messaging here that so many people in my country find frustrating,
00:08:56.000 is that it's hard to actually get the facts.
00:08:59.000 The young woman from BuzzFeed is absolutely right. 0.73
00:09:02.000 It was a violent attack.
00:09:04.000 Yet there were people, and there's video of people walking peacefully
00:09:06.000 through the Capitol buildings.
00:09:08.000 If we're going to have a debate about what this was,
00:09:10.000 and prevent it from happening again,
00:09:12.000 I think part of that is to make sure that we are straightforward
00:09:15.000 and our presentation will actually happen.
00:09:17.000 And the next morning, I was a lead designer, which means,
00:09:21.000 or sometimes as a freelancer, I was a lead designer.
00:09:24.000 And that means that you go to editorial meetings.
00:09:27.000 And an editorial meeting is not the VT editors, it's the editorship,
00:09:32.000 you know, the curation of the show.
00:09:34.000 And so they brought this up.
00:09:38.000 Somebody, a producer, and I tried to get in contact with somebody to find out,
00:09:42.000 because I couldn't remember who it was.
00:09:45.000 One producer said, hang on a minute, how did that clip go out?
00:09:50.000 You know, why did that clip go out?
00:09:53.000 And the editor at the time, or a senior member of staff, said,
00:09:59.000 oh, well, it's gone now, it happened.
00:10:02.000 And I just thought that was extraordinary,
00:10:05.000 that you could, you know, get away with making such a falsehood out of such a long...
00:10:12.000 Because Trump rambles, you know, we all know this.
00:10:15.000 He could have been talking about his soup.
00:10:19.000 And then they put these two things together.
00:10:22.000 And a friend of mine who was trained by the BBC said,
00:10:28.000 this is rule number one.
00:10:30.000 You know, when you're trained at the BBC,
00:10:32.000 you know, you don't falsify footage.
00:10:35.000 You don't clip footage to give a completely different meaning.
00:10:40.000 So how did it happen?
00:10:41.000 If that is the training that people at the BBC are given,
00:10:44.000 how did that...
00:10:45.000 Because that is an extraordinary thing for a flagship program
00:10:50.000 to broadcast effectively a doctored clip.
00:10:53.000 I mean, that's what it was.
00:10:54.000 It was doctored.
00:10:55.000 For that to happen is an extraordinary thing at an institution that,
00:10:59.000 let's be honest, you know, there's a lot of critics of the BBC,
00:11:02.000 but historically speaking, it is the template and the model of objective journalism.
00:11:08.000 How does that happen?
00:11:10.000 Right.
00:11:11.000 Okay.
00:11:12.000 So as I said, a friend of mine, she doesn't work there anymore,
00:11:17.000 but she was trained by the BBC to be an editor.
00:11:20.000 I cannot figure that out.
00:11:23.000 I cannot figure how you can effectively make a lie.
00:11:27.000 Your video, you're manipulating time to create a lie.
00:11:33.000 And how can you do that twice if you are objective and you are there,
00:11:40.000 you know, you're holding yourself up as the arbiters of truth,
00:11:44.000 to then put that out that, you know, and to do it twice.
00:11:50.000 But I think that there's a...
00:11:54.000 I wondered technically whether somebody who worked on Newsnight,
00:11:59.000 I don't want to cast aspersions, an editor who worked on Newsnight,
00:12:04.000 did the same thing and worked on Panorama.
00:12:07.000 Because editors move around.
00:12:08.000 There's a lot of freelance staff because the Panorama was made by October Films.
00:12:14.000 And I've worked for the BBC as a freelancer and worked on films that are produced outside of the BBC.
00:12:20.000 So I've met other editors and people move around.
00:12:24.000 So I don't know whether the editor saw that clip or it was the same editor and thought,
00:12:30.000 I'm going to use that again.
00:12:32.000 But it was fishy.
00:12:36.000 And at the time I was watching that in...
00:12:39.000 Because we'd have a live feed from the studio in the office where we produced the graphics.
00:12:46.000 And I was aghast.
00:12:47.000 I was thinking, how can they think that they get away with it?
00:12:50.000 And then Kirsty saying nothing.
00:12:53.000 And then the reaction the next day in the editorial meeting,
00:13:00.000 when the producer said, you know, how did that happen?
00:13:05.000 And there was no response.
00:13:07.000 I sort of thought, oh.
00:13:09.000 Was there not a discussion about correcting the record, issuing an apology, withdrawing the program?
00:13:15.000 No.
00:13:16.000 No.
00:13:17.000 And it went out onto iPlayer as normal.
00:13:23.000 There are a couple of times when programs didn't go onto iPlayer, but those were due to fuck-ups.
00:13:29.000 Yeah.
00:13:30.000 But that, I mean, the word you just used, the term you just used, fuck-up, I mean, that is a very generous way of describing what happened here.
00:13:40.000 Because I don't know if you, you know, people, everybody will remember this, but this is, of course, a very, very heated moment in world history.
00:13:47.000 Yes.
00:13:48.000 In American history, you have a major media organization here in the UK misrepresenting what's happening in that way.
00:13:57.000 At a time when, frankly, I don't, again, people might have sort of, time has eroded our sense of this, but the big term and discussion at the time was election interference.
00:14:08.000 Yes.
00:14:09.000 And I don't know how you would describe something of this magnitude as not being an attempt, perhaps accidental, but nonetheless, at election interference, interference in the political process through deceit.
00:14:22.000 Yeah, absolutely.
00:14:23.000 And I think that there is election interference.
00:14:26.000 Now, obviously, now Trump's taken at nuclear and said he's going to sue the BBC for a billion.
00:14:34.000 I think that's just the way he plays.
00:14:36.000 He plays big and threatens people and then, anyway.
00:14:40.000 But I think the thing, on a sort of legal issue, I think that it's gonna be difficult for him to prove that it's election interference.
00:14:49.000 It is election interference.
00:14:52.000 That program, there are Americans who live in this country who have American nationality and they are allowed to vote.
00:14:59.000 So anybody who saw that could say, well, that's, you know, that swung it for me.
00:15:06.000 I knew the guy was a Nazi.
00:15:08.000 And then you say you could legally possibly say there's election interference.
00:15:15.000 But then again, the amount of people, the radar figures of how many people are watching Newsnight is something like 100,000.
00:15:25.000 It's tiny.
00:15:26.000 It's really, it's gone down from a million at its height with Paxo down to, you know, nothing.
00:15:34.000 It's a program that's kind of lost its relevance, which is slightly sad.
00:15:38.000 I find it tragic, I'll be honest with you.
00:15:40.000 And I remember I used to be an avid watcher of Newsnight.
00:15:43.000 And I remember one particular episode where Emily Maitlis did a monologue to camera, which is what Newsnight invariably did.
00:15:52.000 But it was very interesting because she wasn't relaying the facts.
00:15:56.000 She was telling us how to think.
00:15:58.000 And I remember at that point thinking to myself, I'm done.
00:16:01.000 Yes.
00:16:02.000 And I think that's a very big mistake that Newsnight made is that it was telling you how to think.
00:16:07.000 Well, I think that Emily Maitlis is a specific case in point.
00:16:12.000 Because she's now got a podcast with Lewis Goodhall.
00:16:17.000 And it was well known.
00:16:20.000 Now, I'm not saying that everybody said, well, he's the lefty.
00:16:23.000 But it was very clear to me that Lewis Goodhall was the same kind of person.
00:16:29.000 And I think Maitlis left quite soon after that, didn't she?
00:16:33.000 That she made it very clear which side of the fence she sat on.
00:16:38.000 But I think that there were hints that other people and other people had beliefs around that they were that way aligned.
00:16:54.000 Now, that's not because I'm some kind of clairvoyant and can't read people's minds, but certain conversations that I heard around that time.
00:17:03.000 And I can't say who they were, but there were conversations in the newsroom that made me think, hang on a minute.
00:17:11.000 You know, I thought we were objective here.
00:17:13.000 And what were those conversations?
00:17:14.000 Okay.
00:17:15.000 So, a correspondent, I remember walking around as they were cogitating the script, was sort of walking around banging his fist saying, Brexit, Brexit.
00:17:30.000 And he turned to a producer and said, how can we work Brexit into this story?
00:17:34.000 And the guy who he had sort of landed up next to said, I'm not sure Brexit has anything to do with this story.
00:17:45.000 And I was thinking, this guy is shaping opinion.
00:17:51.000 And you are trying to work something in that isn't.
00:17:56.000 It isn't.
00:17:57.000 Okay.
00:17:58.000 So, there's another one.
00:17:59.000 So, there's a senior correspondent talking about, and it was, so you get in early at the BBC, you get in at lunchtime.
00:18:08.000 The stories don't really sort of solidify until around about 4pm.
00:18:13.000 You know what's kind of on the cards, but, you know, scripts aren't coming through.
00:18:17.000 And I overheard X talking to Y saying, oh, you know, the whole Trump thing, it's all to do with QAnon.
00:18:28.000 And I'm thinking, what, you know, because I had heard these rumors about QAnon and had thought that it was some sort of 4chan nonsense or some kind of meme or like Kekistan or something like that.
00:18:42.000 And I just thought it was sort of lunacy.
00:18:45.000 And I later on sort of leant over the desk and said, sorry, what was that about Trump and QAnon?
00:18:53.000 Where did you get that?
00:18:54.000 And they said, oh, it was, I heard a podcast, which was a BBC podcast about it and such.
00:19:02.000 And that was it.
00:19:03.000 And that was the truth.
00:19:04.000 The fact that somebody at the BBC had heard somebody else at the BBC explaining Trump's the Capitol Hill, whatever they called it.
00:19:14.000 What did they call it?
00:19:15.000 The insurrection or something.
00:19:17.000 As, you know, the reasons for it were QAnon, et cetera, et cetera.
00:19:25.000 And I thought, gosh, you really in a tiny ecosystem.
00:19:30.000 I'm just a lowly graphic designer.
00:19:33.000 I'm looking at sources of YouTube and Twitter and stuff like that.
00:19:38.000 And I'm seeing a completely different world than you are.
00:19:41.000 And you're in this bubble.
00:19:43.000 And so it's true because another BBC correspondent said it's true.
00:19:47.000 It must be true.
00:19:49.000 The news doesn't just tell you what's happening.
00:19:52.000 It so often tells you what to think is happening.
00:19:55.000 And these days, the biggest red flag isn't what's said.
00:19:58.000 It's what gets left out.
00:19:59.000 That's why I use Ground News.
00:20:01.000 It's the only site and app that compares coverage from across the political spectrum
00:20:06.000 and highlights which stories are being ignored entirely.
00:20:09.000 See for yourself at ground.news slash trigonometry.
00:20:12.000 Their blind spot feed is one of my favorite features.
00:20:15.000 It surfaces around 20 stories a day that are being overlooked by either the left or the right.
00:20:20.000 It's a simple but powerful way to track media bias in real time.
00:20:24.000 Like this.
00:20:25.000 NIH scientists recently published a declaration criticizing Trump's cuts to public health research.
00:20:31.000 That's a major move.
00:20:32.000 And yet only 2% of the coverage came from right-leaning outlets.
00:20:37.000 A new study found that 2024 saw the most armed conflicts globally since 1946.
00:20:42.000 A staggering statistic.
00:20:44.000 But you would have missed it if you'd only read left-wing news sources.
00:20:47.000 Ground News gives you the full picture.
00:20:49.000 Headlines, ownership, bias ratings, and context.
00:20:52.000 So you can actually understand what's going on, not just react to what you're told.
00:20:56.000 Head to ground.news slash trigonometry for 40% off their unlimited vantage plan.
00:21:03.000 The same one we use.
00:21:04.000 And start thinking for yourself.
00:21:06.000 Got PC optimum points?
00:21:09.000 Visit Shoppers Drug Mart for the bonus redemption event and get more for your points.
00:21:13.000 Friday, March 6th to Wednesday, March 11th.
00:21:15.000 Valid in-store and online.
00:21:16.000 Would you like me to tell you about another incident?
00:21:21.000 Yep.
00:21:22.000 Okay.
00:21:23.000 So this is actually specifically to do with the graphic that I did.
00:21:29.000 I did a graphic of Joe Biden.
00:21:32.000 Now, I thought it was very, very clear at the time that he was in cognitive decline.
00:21:39.000 And so he's doing the, what do you call it, gearing up for the election.
00:21:46.000 This is before he got booted out, you know, before there was a coup within the Democratic Party.
00:21:52.000 And so I picked a, it was a, I think it was a three person graphic.
00:21:59.000 No, I think it was just a one person graphic with him in it.
00:22:02.000 And I think it might've been a rally or something like that.
00:22:08.000 It was something to do with the upcoming election.
00:22:11.000 So I had a picture of Biden and he was sort of like this and he looked pensive.
00:22:16.000 He had his finger on his mouth, but I wasn't going to have him sort of, you know, strident.
00:22:22.000 I thought that's a pretty accurate picture of the man now.
00:22:25.000 And I was asked to change it for a more presidential looking.
00:22:29.000 Now I can't, again, I'm, I wouldn't like to get on the stand and say, that's what I was told,
00:22:36.000 find a more presidential picture.
00:22:38.000 But I was told, don't use that picture and find another one, you know, that's less where he's looking down.
00:22:48.000 And so I thought, hang on a minute, you know, I've just picked something.
00:22:54.000 Well, I wish I think is because the graphic designers are allowed to go on Getty and pick up the pictures that you wanted.
00:23:00.000 And I thought, what's the reason for them, you know, not accepting this graphic with that picture of Biden?
00:23:08.000 Is it because he looks like an old man in decline? 1.00
00:23:12.000 Yeah.
00:23:13.000 So, and then there was at the time in the ether.
00:23:16.000 Oh, by the way, that graphic, I did manage to smuggle in.
00:23:20.000 I found a photograph that said, let's go Brandon.
00:23:24.000 So that went out with let's go Brandon, but nobody pulled me off.
00:23:29.000 I don't know whether they knew what that meant. 1.00
00:23:31.000 Anyway, it was when they were saying, fuck Joe Biden. 1.00
00:23:34.000 Yeah. 1.00
00:23:35.000 Yeah.
00:23:36.000 So I put that on the graphic and that's not because I'm sort of right wing.
00:23:41.000 It's because I think I had a slightly anarchic side to me.
00:23:45.000 Anyway.
00:23:46.000 Yeah.
00:23:47.000 And then there was one other incident which happened at the BBC.
00:23:51.000 Oh, okay.
00:23:53.000 So there's another weird story for you.
00:23:55.000 And I don't know whether you're going to be able to use this, but I overheard a producer
00:24:02.000 talking about his son at school.
00:24:07.000 And he said, and he was talking about, they, some producers were talking about illegal immigration.
00:24:14.000 And they were talking about a man who was at his son's school, who was obviously not his son's age,
00:24:22.000 but was in the same year group.
00:24:25.000 And the children had seen him driving past.
00:24:29.000 He wasn't at school one day and seen him driving past with a taxi, in a taxi.
00:24:34.000 He was the taxi driver.
00:24:36.000 And the producers kind of joking saying, oh, well, well, me, I remember saying or thinking.
00:24:44.000 So there's a guy who's an Afghan refugee at your son's school, who is clearly not the age that he's saying.
00:24:55.000 And he's driving a taxi.
00:24:57.000 And the children at your son's school all recognize this.
00:25:01.000 Isn't that a story in itself?
00:25:03.000 You know, the fact.
00:25:04.000 But it was just in hearsay.
00:25:07.000 It was just in conversation.
00:25:08.000 And I kept thinking, that's the story.
00:25:11.000 But as I said before, I'm just, I'm just a graphic designer.
00:25:15.000 So.
00:25:16.000 No, completely.
00:25:17.000 Do you know what I think when you tell these stories?
00:25:20.000 I think that there is a complete lack of leadership at the BBC.
00:25:24.000 Because really, when these people are putting forward these stories or they're molding the stories to be a certain way with a certain bias.
00:25:31.000 No, that's fine if it's Fox News.
00:25:33.000 It's fine if it's MSNBC.
00:25:35.000 This is the BBC.
00:25:36.000 This is a publicly funded institution.
00:25:39.000 Yeah.
00:25:40.000 And in its charter, it's meant to be nonpartisan.
00:25:42.000 Yes.
00:25:43.000 And absolutely.
00:25:45.000 And I think that what's interesting is, is you can find as many people on the left who say, oh, the BBC's right wing.
00:25:53.000 And you can find as many people on the right who say it's left wing.
00:25:58.000 But in the instances that I saw, I thought, they're absolutely definitely on that.
00:26:06.000 And again, is it because I'm sort of more centrist and to the right?
00:26:11.000 Am I seeing it?
00:26:12.000 But they're not.
00:26:13.000 And I don't know whether it's lack of leadership.
00:26:16.000 I think it's kind of like group think.
00:26:19.000 That I remember being in an editorial meeting and there was a discussion about, they go through topics.
00:26:26.000 Oh, today is London Fashion Week.
00:26:28.000 Should we do a story on that?
00:26:30.000 Oh, you know, there are sort of events in the diary that they can pick on.
00:26:36.000 And there was National Women's Authors Day.
00:26:41.000 And so there's this producer.
00:26:46.000 And he said, well, why don't we do the best men's author?
00:26:50.000 And this woman producer went into meltdown. 1.00
00:26:55.000 He was just like a very contrary person.
00:26:58.000 I thought, but you need people like this.
00:27:01.000 Of course.
00:27:02.000 You need somebody to throw hand grenades in and mix things up.
00:27:04.000 And I just remember thinking the reason and the figures about Newsnight were the fact that it was a dying program.
00:27:13.000 That's what I thought anyway.
00:27:15.000 And then they ran out of money and they got rid of all the correspondence.
00:27:19.000 And now it's kind of like a talk show.
00:27:21.000 But I thought, why don't they get people like you, people like Russell Brand in and liven up and get there?
00:27:32.000 Because you guys, if you were to be on Newsnight, and I know you guys do this, you strip it out of the, you know, you clip it and you put it on.
00:27:40.000 You get more people watching their program, more people watching your program.
00:27:44.000 You are doing the kind of publicity that they can't get.
00:27:48.000 And I thought at one stage, and I've mentioned this to you, that I said, why don't you get Konstantin Kissin in?
00:27:57.000 And one of them who I spoke to said, oh, no, we're not having him in.
00:28:02.000 You know, I've done a lot of stuff on the BBC.
00:28:05.000 Yeah.
00:28:06.000 So I don't think it's a universal thing, but I definitely think there'll be some reluctance.
00:28:12.000 And, you know, it was actually Rod Little who said to me once, he said, oh, you are now on the BBC's Dial a Cunt list.
00:28:21.000 Which is, you know, you get five people, one of them has a moderately centrist opinion.
00:28:28.000 But, you know, we're joking around.
00:28:30.000 I think it's important to also be fair here.
00:28:33.000 For example, you know, your point about the Joe Biden graphic.
00:28:37.000 Yes.
00:28:38.000 I can totally see from an editorial perspective how you would also be accused of bias if you did present Joe Biden in an overtly kind of decline focused way.
00:28:49.000 Right?
00:28:50.000 Absolutely.
00:28:51.000 And there's a story around that as well, that talking about the left, right, you know, bias and anybody can see it from any angle.
00:29:00.000 There was a bit of a hoo-ha about Corbyn, Jeremy Corbyn.
00:29:07.000 A graphic went out with Corbyn wearing a hat.
00:29:11.000 He used to walk around with that sort of Beatles hat, you know, and the BBC were accused of making the hat bigger.
00:29:22.000 And there was a whole inquiry because Corbyn would get on, you know, the BBC is biased, they're biased against me.
00:29:29.000 And it was a news night thing, graphic, and they had to prove, you know, they had to do a side by side.
00:29:38.000 They had to prove to the Board of Governors that they hadn't manipulated this image.
00:29:42.000 So they are.
00:29:43.000 And as I said, I don't know why somebody rejected my graphic.
00:29:48.000 Maybe it's because he had his hand on his mouth.
00:29:51.000 Maybe they wanted, you know, the three, I think it was a three header.
00:29:56.000 I don't know.
00:29:57.000 But it might have been, you know, we want him to be looking out of screen right, or I don't know.
00:30:03.000 But, and this is the thing about trying to second guess people, you can't read people's minds.
00:30:08.000 Yes.
00:30:09.000 The point I was going to make, though, is you say, well, you know, lots of people on the left think the BBC is right wing and whatever.
00:30:16.000 A lot of people say that.
00:30:18.000 I actually think it's a little bit more nuanced than that.
00:30:21.000 Yes.
00:30:22.000 In that the people on the left who think the BBC is right wing tend to be on the extremes of the left.
00:30:28.000 They are far, far progressive way out there people.
00:30:31.000 Not really.
00:30:32.000 My uncle and aunt were saying it last night.
00:30:34.000 Really?
00:30:35.000 Well, maybe my theory is not true.
00:30:37.000 But what I was going to say is, and look, people might disagree with this, is whereas the people who think the BBC has a left leaning bias are kind of anyone who is in the center and onwards.
00:30:47.000 Yes.
00:30:48.000 And one of the arguments I would put forward in defense of that theory is that, or at least in defense of the theory that the BBC, where it leans, it leans mostly to the left, is look at what's happened since the presenters have left.
00:31:05.000 Once the presenters leave, you find out what the actual beliefs are.
00:31:08.000 Yeah.
00:31:09.000 And look, Andrew Neil, clearly center right.
00:31:11.000 Yeah.
00:31:12.000 But look at Emily Maitlis.
00:31:13.000 Look at Lewis Goodall.
00:31:14.000 I mean, look, John Sopple, who's another one.
00:31:16.000 Yeah.
00:31:17.000 Like, all of these people are very, very much on the left.
00:31:23.000 And they were not shy.
00:31:24.000 I mean, the one thing you would say about Andrew Neil during this time at the BBC is that he skewered everybody equally.
00:31:31.000 Everybody respected Andrew Neil, not for his views that aligned with their views, but for his neutrality and his principles and his doggedness in pursuing them.
00:31:40.000 But when you talk about other people, they were implementing their worldview while they were at the BBC.
00:31:48.000 And they were respected not for their neutrality, but they were loved for the fact that they were sticking it to Trump and they were sticking it to this and they were sticking it to that.
00:31:56.000 That's, I think, the difference.
00:31:58.000 Yeah, I think the thing about neutrality was very interesting after the Panorama story broke.
00:32:07.000 And then my Newsnight revelation came a few days after, and the head of news resigned.
00:32:16.000 And she called it an error.
00:32:20.000 And I think that's the difference, is you can make mistakes, but you can't make that kind of mistake.
00:32:27.000 You cannot be, and as you say that, I think even on the Today programme, and I can't remember the chap's name who presents that, but even he, there was no apology. 0.84
00:32:39.000 There was no, you know, we fucked up big time here.
00:32:43.000 You know, this should never have gone out. 0.94
00:32:45.000 This is an obvious case of bias.
00:32:47.000 It was a mistake.
00:32:48.000 It was a mistake.
00:32:49.000 Oh, we made an error.
00:32:50.000 And, and the thing is, is from what I saw from the people that I were around were pretty much seem to be of that ilk that they are, you know, nobody's going to rock the boat.
00:33:04.000 Nobody's going to, um, like around the whole, you know, Joe Rogan, Ivermectin thing that you, you, that opened my eyes to a media landscape where people are pushing.
00:33:19.000 I know it's, it's such a cliche, pushing a narrative and you get the feeling that within the BBC, they can't see beyond, you know, their own, as I said, their own bubble.
00:33:30.000 And it not only goes, it's not only in news and current affairs, that this, you know, their whole ideology, that you get scripts in EastEnders, which are sort of pushing a narrative, that you get Doctor Who, where you're having non-binary aliens and a very camp Doctor Who. 0.78
00:33:52.000 And you realise that it's, it's not the organisation that it's, you know, purported to be.
00:34:01.000 There are people within the BBC who I admire and met and met in passing.
00:34:11.000 And so let's say Frank Gardner is the, um, is the security guy.
00:34:19.000 And, but anyway, I met, um, Frank Gardner in the cafeteria one morning and I'd just seen him on in the, there's a massive, um, jumbotron.
00:34:30.000 And as you go into the reception at the BBC, I'm sure you've seen it.
00:34:33.000 And I'd just seen him in the morning as I came in for my morning shift or in the morning.
00:34:38.000 And I met him in the, and I have a great deal of affection for that guy.
00:34:42.000 I mean, who can't have affection for a guy who is blown up in Saudi Arabia by Al Qaeda? 0.90
00:34:48.000 You know, you would expect that guy to be the, but then, you know, we have affection for the BBC.
00:34:56.000 And I think that the worry is how long is that affection going to last?
00:35:01.000 How many mistakes can, mistakes can they make before people say, hang on a minute, this isn't the,
00:35:07.000 how many people are going to see fuck ups on news, social engineering on kids' programmes and entertainment
00:35:17.000 before they say, hang on a minute, this, this is not, it's not worth the, the licence fee. 0.71
00:35:24.000 And I think it was, is it a hundred thousand people last year stopped paying their licence fee?
00:35:32.000 I read that it was 300,000, 300,000 either refused or stopped paying.
00:35:38.000 Yeah.
00:35:39.000 I mean, I'm not here to, you know, to bomb the BBC and prevent them.
00:35:48.000 I would like them to get their act in order, but how long can they ask people for money in this plural,
00:35:54.000 pluralistic media landscape that you guys are getting people like Netanyahu on your show?
00:36:02.000 And he probably won't go on the BBC.
00:36:04.000 No.
00:36:05.000 That's because you know she's not going to get treated fairly.
00:36:06.000 A fair hearing.
00:36:07.000 He's probably going to be clipped, you know?
00:36:09.000 So, you know, and I find that very interesting.
00:36:12.000 How long can you effectively run a state run media organisation where you get,
00:36:19.000 and effectively tax people to own a colour TV, and you're putting out mistruths,
00:36:26.000 you're putting out lies, and you're putting out entertainment that people are saying,
00:36:31.000 hang on a minute, I just wanted to see a Time Lord travelling around.
00:36:36.000 I don't want to see non-binary aliens. 1.00
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00:38:06.000 Some say the bubbles in an aero truffle piece can take 34 seconds to melt in your mouth.
00:38:12.000 Sometimes the very amount you're stuck at the same red light.
00:38:15.000 Rich, creamy, chocolatey aero truffle.
00:38:18.000 Feel the aero bubbles melt.
00:38:20.000 It's mind bubbling.
00:38:22.000 It's quite a profound point.
00:38:24.000 I guess my question is this.
00:38:26.000 Part of the criticism of the BBC has always been, look, the reason the BBC is in the mess it's in
00:38:32.000 is because it employs a lot of people from the same type of background.
00:38:37.000 They tend to be very middle class.
00:38:39.000 They tend to be university educated, probably red brick, probably Oxbridge.
00:38:43.000 And as a result of that, you get the same type of people, you get the same type of opinion.
00:38:47.000 This isn't representative of the average person in the UK.
00:38:52.000 How much do these type of people, how much does Emily Maitlis have in common 0.99
00:38:57.000 with someone from Middlesbrough, for instance, in a council estate?
00:39:00.000 Do you think that is at the nub of this problem?
00:39:03.000 I think so.
00:39:04.000 And I saw that with, occasionally they would send a producer up in a car somewhere.
00:39:13.000 And I thought that they weren't.
00:39:16.000 Somewhere dreadful.
00:39:18.000 Go meet the plebs. 1.00
00:39:20.000 Don't stay too long.
00:39:21.000 You might catch something.
00:39:23.000 And I don't think that they were doing that enough.
00:39:25.000 And I think you're absolutely right.
00:39:27.000 There was a particular type of person.
00:39:29.000 But there were people willing to do proper investigative journalism.
00:39:37.000 Like you had Hannah Barnes, who did the trans story and the, what was that clinic called? 0.66
00:39:44.000 The Tavistock.
00:39:45.000 The Tavistock.
00:39:46.000 And going to the Tavistock.
00:39:47.000 So there are people still wanting to put out really important stories.
00:39:53.000 But there are a lot of people, as you say, who are of that ilk, as you say.
00:40:02.000 They're university educators.
00:40:04.000 You know, you have to be fairly bright to work there.
00:40:07.000 And they all have that same kind of left wing-ish.
00:40:12.000 And I think that it goes deeper, that the left see themselves as the good guys.
00:40:19.000 And that, you know, like the Guardian, we are the good guys and you're the Nazis. 0.73
00:40:24.000 And stuff like that.
00:40:26.000 So, yes, you're right.
00:40:28.000 I think they need to get out more.
00:40:29.000 I think they need to hire people.
00:40:31.000 It's that whole question, isn't it?
00:40:36.000 It's not diversity of skin color.
00:40:39.000 It's diversity of thought.
00:40:41.000 Because I don't understand.
00:40:45.000 And maybe people do have these discussions and they're having them behind closed doors.
00:40:50.000 Why are they not looking at the numbers of people not renewing their license?
00:40:55.000 Of people not coming back to the BBC.
00:40:59.000 Declining viewing figures.
00:41:01.000 And quite frankly, bricking it, going, we're all going to be out of a job here.
00:41:06.000 If we don't sort ourselves out.
00:41:09.000 I think there's a certain arrogance about the BBC.
00:41:11.000 There's a certain arrogance about people that they are the gold standard.
00:41:16.000 I'm sure you two watched TV in the 1990s and you had Paxman on, you know, Paxo on Newsnight.
00:41:26.000 You had brilliant comedy, whether it was Only Fools and Horses.
00:41:30.000 And we all have an affection for it.
00:41:32.000 And that's why it's sort of, I think, clinging on.
00:41:36.000 But they are constantly eroding that affection.
00:41:41.000 And I thought what was interesting was, in the news article about the whole Panorama thing, it said,
00:41:49.000 the BBC is still the most trusted news source.
00:41:53.000 And I thought, Google that.
00:41:55.000 Where is that coming in?
00:41:57.000 Is that true?
00:41:58.000 How long can that remain?
00:42:00.000 That they are the most trusted source if they keep doing stuff like this?
00:42:04.000 And how long are they going to realize that?
00:42:07.000 I can't remember when you said 300,000.
00:42:09.000 It's like a massive amount of money that they're missing out.
00:42:12.000 Of course.
00:42:13.000 It's almost like a billion, isn't it, or something?
00:42:15.000 You know, if you keep losing a billion a year, you know, where is that organization going to be in five years, ten years?
00:42:23.000 And why aren't they doing something about it?
00:42:25.000 And I think this is the struggle at the moment.
00:42:28.000 And I don't know the politics within all the higher ups.
00:42:33.000 I can't remember.
00:42:34.000 What do they call the...
00:42:35.000 So you've got the chairman and you've got the trustees, is it what they call it?
00:42:39.000 Board of Trustees.
00:42:40.000 What are they saying to each other in that room?
00:42:43.000 You know, are they saying, for God's sake, get it together?
00:42:46.000 You know, we need to get some right wing people.
00:42:48.000 We need to have other viewpoints.
00:42:51.000 But this is why I think the point about diversity of background is actually so important.
00:42:57.000 And Francis makes a very good point, as he always does about the working class being underrepresented.
00:43:02.000 Thank you.
00:43:03.000 But I actually, I think it's not even just about class.
00:43:07.000 Sometimes it's as simple as geography.
00:43:09.000 I remember making this point at some point while I was on the BBC about the fact that, well, diversity of skin color is really important because we have to reflect our community.
00:43:21.000 And even if you accept that as a premise, the problem is that all of these people live in big cities, which are very diverse ethnically.
00:43:30.000 And I made the point, well, what if you're watching a BBC program in Hastings?
00:43:34.000 Yeah.
00:43:35.000 Are you still representing your local community?
00:43:39.000 Because, you know, I was just in Crowborough filming protests against an...
00:43:43.000 Asylum hotel? 0.77
00:43:45.000 A military base that is going to potentially be used for that.
00:43:50.000 Crowborough, through no fall of its own, a very welcoming place, is 96% white. 0.99
00:43:55.000 Now, if I'm watching the BBC in Crowborough, that is made by people who want to represent their local community, which is inner city London, does that represent me?
00:44:05.000 Am I watching a program that reflects my community, the values of my community, the backgrounds of the people in my community?
00:44:12.000 So sending someone on an expedition to Crowborough for a couple of hours isn't enough to give you the perspective of what it's like to be living in one of those communities.
00:44:23.000 And that's why it's really actually, I think, important that the BBC is not allowed to do what it has done, which has become an elitist club for people with one particular worldview.
00:44:36.000 In a way that Rod Little, who I mentioned earlier, who was the editor of the Today program, I think?
00:44:42.000 Yeah.
00:44:43.000 Or it was in Newsnight?
00:44:44.000 No, I think it was Today.
00:44:45.000 Yeah.
00:44:46.000 Would never in a million years be allowed within a barge pole of the BBC.
00:44:50.000 Yeah.
00:44:51.000 Oh, absolutely.
00:44:52.000 And that's why it has become so closed off to differences of opinion.
00:44:56.000 So if they get me or Rod or Matt Goodwin or someone on Question Time every now and again, I think that's good and important.
00:45:03.000 But I actually think unless you deal with the staffing issue, which Francis brings up, you're always going to have this problem where you look at people who don't have your politics,
00:45:13.000 who don't have your worldview as some hostile foreign force that must be appeased instead of half the country,
00:45:20.000 whose views really have to be included and represented in a fair and balanced way.
00:45:24.000 And the other thing that they are in is they're very much in the Westminster bubble because, you know, and they're all lots of the political correspondents have got, you know,
00:45:38.000 people that people that they can talk to people that they can talk to within the political parties on pretty much on speed dial.
00:45:43.000 And I think it is that Westminster, you know, London bubble.
00:45:48.000 And when they would go to other places, I remember they went to Cardiff.
00:45:53.000 So you're taking a whole load of BBC people to another BBC location, another bubble.
00:45:59.000 So one bubble to another.
00:46:01.000 And, you know, oh, well, you know, we're being diverse in our location.
00:46:06.000 And they did, I remember they also did a, like a town hall, almost like a question time type thing.
00:46:14.000 But how are they vetting the people?
00:46:17.000 Yeah, it is absolutely.
00:46:20.000 There is this, they are living in, and even the, the edifice of the BBC, you know, this sort of palatial building.
00:46:27.000 You can't help that, obviously, but it gives you this sort of, it's almost like the castle of Mordor or something.
00:46:36.000 To me, that's a little bit extreme.
00:46:38.000 I actually think it should be the other way around.
00:46:40.000 When you go into the BBC, you should be stunned into the significance of the thing that you're working in.
00:46:47.000 Yeah.
00:46:48.000 And therefore the principles to which that organisation adheres should be burnt into your mind as the North Star by which you're operating.
00:46:56.000 So that you can never doctor a clip of a guy you happen not to like, both as an individual who did that and as the institution that oversaw that.
00:47:07.000 Because you have a greater purpose.
00:47:09.000 And that greater purpose is objective reporting of the truth and setting the standard.
00:47:14.000 This is, you know, this is why I feel so passionate about it.
00:47:16.000 Sorry that I'm ranting, but I do.
00:47:18.000 My grandfather, living in Soviet Russia, right, he freed his mind by listening to BBC World Service.
00:47:25.000 Yes.
00:47:26.000 The BBC has been an incredibly important institution.
00:47:28.000 I don't, and you know, a lot of the conversation after the story broke was,
00:47:33.000 oh, these people who want to destroy the BBC, they're using it as a weapon.
00:47:37.000 No.
00:47:38.000 Yeah.
00:47:39.000 What we're saying is the BBC should be what it's supposed to be.
00:47:42.000 And then we would be the first people to celebrate it.
00:47:44.000 Yeah, absolutely.
00:47:45.000 And I mean, and the fact is you're saying you should walk in and you should say, you know, I need to uphold my values.
00:47:51.000 I need to have values.
00:47:52.000 I need to have values.
00:47:53.000 And outside the BBC is a statue of George Orwell.
00:47:58.000 And it says if the, if the truth means anything, or I can't, I'll mangle the quote, but if something means anything, it's the ability to tell people the truth.
00:48:08.000 If freedom of speech means anything, it means the right to tell people what they don't want to hear.
00:48:12.000 Exactly.
00:48:13.000 And I think that the BBC are afraid of that.
00:48:15.000 And I also think as well, it's not that they don't, they're afraid of telling people what they don't want to hear.
00:48:23.000 It's seems to me that they, they, they, they're scared of the staff almost.
00:48:29.000 I think so.
00:48:30.000 And I think that if you were to, you're in a bubble and if you would, and as I said, there was a, there was a producer who would throw hand grenades in the editorial meeting.
00:48:41.000 And he was seen as a bit of a sort of live wire and, you know, he was seen as, you know, a contrarian, but you need people like that.
00:48:49.000 But you also need left and right.
00:48:51.000 Of course.
00:48:52.000 You need somebody.
00:48:53.000 And this is what I remember you saying about your cousins from Venezuela whispering. 0.92
00:48:59.000 Yeah.
00:49:00.000 What we used to do at the BBC was we'd be sort of whispering, you would pick your allies.
00:49:05.000 You knew who was on the graphic design team, who was on the left and who was on the right, just through their reactions to various stories.
00:49:14.000 And we'd be with whispering because you don't want to be heard.
00:49:18.000 You don't want to give yourself away that you are possibly counting.
00:49:22.000 You know, you're doing a story about somebody and you're thinking, is this true?
00:49:26.000 You know, what are they saying about this guy?
00:49:30.000 Do you think that the, the, the BBC as an institution can be saved?
00:49:35.000 I'm not the person to ask, but since I'm your guest, I will, it can be saved, but I think it's going to have to choose a different model.
00:49:47.000 I genuinely think that the days of the, um, license fee are over.
00:49:53.000 I think that it's going to have to become a, uh, what, what's Netflix?
00:50:00.000 What's that?
00:50:01.000 That's a subscription.
00:50:02.000 Subscription.
00:50:03.000 You have to become a subscription model.
00:50:05.000 I, I think if you want the BBC, you're going to have to pay for it.
00:50:08.000 And, and I, they are going to have to massively slim down and they're going to have to change their remit.
00:50:15.000 You know, they can't be everything to all people.
00:50:18.000 They're going to have to choose.
00:50:19.000 Are you going to be an entertainment channel?
00:50:21.000 Are you going to be a news channel?
00:50:23.000 They're trying to do too many things.
00:50:25.000 You know, their, their remit is too broad.
00:50:28.000 They are going to, I don't want to see them die.
00:50:32.000 I genuinely don't want to see it.
00:50:33.000 Nobody does.
00:50:34.000 Cause we all have this affection for auntie, you know, and it was the voice that we trusted.
00:50:41.000 I'm not sure you can ever get back that trust.
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00:51:46.000 I think part of the challenge that BBC faces is that you've employed all of these people who are fiercely ideological, who, let's be honest, don't really care about the truth as long as they get their message out and they smear, stop, or do their best to try and get someone elected.
00:52:06.000 I mean, what do you do when you have a whole cohort of people working in your organization like that?
00:52:12.000 Well, I think the thing is, what is interesting is it's not like you go in and everybody's wearing, you know, Palestinian flags, you know, it's not so easy to spot.
00:52:25.000 It's not a sort of rabid, like when I went to St. Martin's, you had a sort of rabid National Union of Students.
00:52:34.000 It's not like you're walking into that.
00:52:36.000 You're walking into very pleasant people talking, but you are talking to the North London set, the Islington set.
00:52:45.000 You are with those people.
00:52:46.000 And it's very, very hard.
00:52:48.000 How do you make sure you have an ideological mix within an organization?
00:52:53.000 How do you, you know, do you have to have your own struggle sessions within the BBC so that you open people's minds?
00:53:02.000 But do you, or do you police it much more?
00:53:05.000 And you have like the hand grenade thrower who says, let's do a right wing story.
00:53:11.000 Let's, you know, how do you balance?
00:53:13.000 How do you balance?
00:53:14.000 Do you have like guests like yourself more often? 0.99
00:53:17.000 The cunts on speed pedal. 0.54
00:53:19.000 I don't, the short answer is I don't know. 0.97
00:53:22.000 But that's what Francis was saying.
00:53:23.000 This is why it starts with leadership because if the, if the head of the organization says, what we are about is a mix of opinions and every editorial meeting should be fierce debate about how to cover a particular story.
00:53:37.000 That's how you get balance.
00:53:38.000 You don't get balance by having, people won't realize this.
00:53:43.000 We have fierce arguments about how to cover certain things in trigonometry.
00:53:47.000 Yeah.
00:53:48.000 And that's just between me and Francis.
00:53:49.000 And they're not, they're not, they're not arguments that are nasty.
00:53:53.000 They're, they're arguments about what the right approach is.
00:53:57.000 And the right approach is found through the bringing of different perspectives together.
00:54:02.000 Those challenges, those two things being challenged against each other, other voices coming in as well.
00:54:09.000 That's how you get some attempt to get to the truth.
00:54:13.000 Whereas if you have an ideology, if you have a worldview that you're trying to project, that's a whole different thing.
00:54:20.000 And look, trigonometry could be incredibly biased if we chose to, and we made more money doing it, but the BBC doesn't have that luxury.
00:54:28.000 The BBC is a publicly funded organization where I, I hope you're wrong.
00:54:33.000 I don't, I'm not saying you are necessarily wrong, but I hope you're wrong.
00:54:36.000 Is I think the moment the BBC ceases to be publicly funded, it will cease the, it will lose the ability to be an attempt to reach an objective coverage of the, of news.
00:54:47.000 Because that business model in the highly polarized world that we now live in, I don't think that really works anymore.
00:54:53.000 And so I do think it should be publicly funded, but in order to be a publicly funded news organization in the 21st century, you have to go up a level of integrity.
00:55:05.000 You have to go up a level of objectivity.
00:55:07.000 You have to go up a level of neutrality if you want to survive.
00:55:10.000 And I hope they do that.
00:55:11.000 Absolutely.
00:55:12.000 I mean, and they've made these strange attempts like BBC verify.
00:55:16.000 And, you know, it didn't quite work out, let's be honest.
00:55:22.000 The tragedy for me, for the BBC is that it still has this opportunity to be the gold bearer.
00:55:31.000 This, it has the opportunity to assume the mantle of high quality journalism that nobody else can do.
00:55:40.000 Nobody else can do.
00:55:41.000 Nobody else can do it in America because they've got their own declining views and they're so partisan.
00:55:46.000 There's no way back.
00:55:47.000 And we're going the same way over here.
00:55:49.000 And it's almost like seeing this hero of yours who you had right the way through your childhood and your early youth.
00:55:57.000 And you just want to shake them and go, there's still time.
00:56:00.000 There's still time.
00:56:01.000 If you do objective fact based reporting, you will be one of the few people organizations that can actually still do it.
00:56:10.000 But don't you think that you two and other people like you are the beneficiaries of this because the BBC is so biased that you can have views outside of...
00:56:23.000 No, I don't agree.
00:56:25.000 I think that, look, of course, for us to be able to say, look, the mainstream media is not covering this story.
00:56:33.000 We'll cover it.
00:56:34.000 That's beneficial.
00:56:35.000 But the BBC doesn't have to compete with us.
00:56:38.000 No.
00:56:39.000 The BBC does not have to compete with a podcast.
00:56:42.000 What the BBC could do is be the platform that everybody goes to and goes, OK, here are the facts as they've been reported.
00:56:50.000 Now we get to argue about our opinions.
00:56:53.000 And Emily Maitlis and Lewis Goodall can have their opinions.
00:56:56.000 We can have our opinions.
00:56:57.000 People who are on the right can have their opinions.
00:57:01.000 That's how it should be if the BBC was willing to act in the role that it actually has.
00:57:07.000 To say nothing of the fact, by the way, look, one of the things that's going to happen...
00:57:11.000 We've just come from America and we already see this happening.
00:57:15.000 The mainstream is going to try and start bringing...
00:57:18.000 Brett Cooper is a good example.
00:57:20.000 She's a right wing presenter formerly of The Daily Wire.
00:57:23.000 Now she has a slot on Fox News every now and again.
00:57:26.000 The mainstream media is going to start bringing people from our world into that.
00:57:32.000 Yes, into that.
00:57:33.000 And I guarantee you the BBC is not going to do that.
00:57:35.000 I guarantee you.
00:57:36.000 They're not going to bring in, you know, I don't know, I'm trying to think of...
00:57:41.000 Russell Brand.
00:57:42.000 Well, Russell Brand has got his issues, which makes things more difficult.
00:57:46.000 But I'm trying to think of a...
00:57:48.000 I was trying to think of a...
00:57:49.000 They're not...
00:57:50.000 They might bring Gary's economics to do a documentary.
00:57:54.000 But they're not going to bring me and Francis on to do a documentary.
00:57:57.000 No.
00:57:58.000 And this is the problem, right?
00:57:59.000 Because it's a lack of balance in the approach.
00:58:02.000 If they fix that, we would celebrate the BBC.
00:58:05.000 People in the middle like us would celebrate it.
00:58:08.000 Some people on the right would abandon.
00:58:10.000 And I can tell you, on the right in this country, if you speak to people, there is no appetite for the BBC to survive in the way that we have it.
00:58:18.000 And if they just did their job, people are dying now for objective journalism.
00:58:24.000 People are crying out for it.
00:58:25.000 But I also think that the messaging within drama as well.
00:58:29.000 Yes.
00:58:30.000 The messaging across the board.
00:58:31.000 I mean, I used to love Radio 4.
00:58:33.000 Yeah.
00:58:34.000 And you can't listen to it without being... 0.78
00:58:37.000 I mean, I remember switching on and there was a drama about a gay Muslim. 0.96
00:58:42.000 Now, I'm sure there are gay Muslims, but it was... 1.00
00:58:46.000 They're probably not that vocal, though. 0.95
00:58:48.000 No, they're probably not that vocal.
00:58:51.000 There's so many dark jokes in there.
00:58:53.000 I know.
00:58:54.000 I was going to say...
00:58:55.000 Yeah.
00:58:56.000 My mind went there.
00:58:58.000 Yeah.
00:58:59.000 So, I was listening...
00:59:00.000 The last time I listened, I listened to the Money Programme, what do you call it?
00:59:08.000 The Woman's Hour.
00:59:09.000 And then this drama is when I switched off.
00:59:12.000 But Woman's Hour is somebody saying, you need to get angry. 1.00
00:59:16.000 This woman's saying, you need to scream. 1.00
00:59:18.000 And I was thinking, my God, you know, this show has changed so much.
00:59:22.000 And I'm not sure whether you two do this, but I now watch BBC Four.
00:59:29.000 It's the BBC, and I know that's very old fart. 1.00
00:59:33.000 You know, you're watching old stuff.
00:59:35.000 But you watch that, and you think, my God, you know, how the mighty have fallen.
00:59:41.000 And I think that you need to do something.
00:59:45.000 You need to police the news.
00:59:48.000 You need to have somebody who is right-wing and is unashamed and is proud to be able to say that.
00:59:57.000 And I think the thing is, is in editorial meetings, after a couple of times, I stopped putting my hand up.
01:00:03.000 Not because I wanted to give stories, but I thought, well, there's no bloody point.
01:00:07.000 I know you're just a graphic designer.
01:00:10.000 You're not a, you're not a, but your opinion on things and your idea of things is so far from what they're saying.
01:00:18.000 I'm not even going to bother.
01:00:19.000 I'm not going to be listened to.
01:00:21.000 So you need to have, you need to have different editorial voices in news and current affairs.
01:00:27.000 You also need, in entertainment, you need to actually have somebody reading through these scripts and say,
01:00:34.000 what's this got to do with space aliens?
01:00:37.000 You know, what's this, you know, were there really black people who are Roman centurions who came to the UK?
01:00:43.000 Is this a proper, should we be teaching this?
01:00:45.000 There should be actual questions.
01:00:47.000 And because the BBC farms out a lot of stuff to independent production companies like October Films,
01:00:54.000 who was on that?
01:00:55.000 Who on the BBC was on that?
01:00:57.000 There's a lot of people, senior people within the BBC, correspondents,
01:01:03.000 and they come back and this is, I'm doing the story on this.
01:01:06.000 I didn't know the machinations of how stories appeared out of the ether,
01:01:10.000 but you'd have a correspondent saying, I'm going to do this story.
01:01:14.000 And, and they, you see them writing it.
01:01:16.000 Where do they get their stories from?
01:01:18.000 You know, and who's checking them?
01:01:22.000 Who's saying, you know, is this correct?
01:01:24.000 Correct. And in the Hannah Barnes, did she have somebody mentoring her?
01:01:30.000 I don't know.
01:01:31.000 Saying, you know, this is what we need to say.
01:01:33.000 There were obviously editorial meetings.
01:01:35.000 They'd have editorial meetings and discuss their shows.
01:01:38.000 But apart from that guy that I said was the hand grenade man,
01:01:43.000 there were very few different opinions.
01:01:45.000 And you need to do that across the board.
01:01:47.000 You need to do that in entertainment.
01:01:49.000 You need to do that in sort of light programming.
01:01:52.000 You need to do that for the one show, for Strictly Come Dancing, everything.
01:01:56.000 And I think it's a monumental task for them to turn the ship around.
01:02:01.000 And I think as well, look, they've also, let's also be fair to the BBC.
01:02:07.000 They're facing this major challenge, which every big organization is facing,
01:02:11.000 which is the politicization of everything.
01:02:15.000 And in particular, young people.
01:02:17.000 And I think we need to get back to a culture of, you know what?
01:02:21.000 You have your religion.
01:02:22.000 You have your politics.
01:02:23.000 If you identify as a fish from Friday to Sunday evening,
01:02:27.000 identify as a fish.
01:02:28.000 I don't care.
01:02:29.000 When you come into work, you do your job.
01:02:32.000 Just do your job.
01:02:33.000 And I saw it in teaching.
01:02:36.000 People started to bring their politics into teaching.
01:02:38.000 I'm going, why are you teaching the kids about Brexit
01:02:41.000 when they can't even write their own name and they're eight years old?
01:02:47.000 Yes.
01:02:48.000 I think you need to be the doorman on the BBC.
01:02:51.000 See, this is a classist thing because I make a point,
01:02:53.000 I've got myself on an accent.
01:02:54.000 Exactly.
01:02:55.000 I'm the doorman.
01:02:56.000 You should be the cleaner, mate.
01:02:57.000 Yeah.
01:02:58.000 You know what you'd be good at, mate?
01:02:59.000 Cleaning the bogs. 1.00
01:03:00.000 Why don't you do that?
01:03:01.000 On that happy note, David, we appreciate you coming on
01:03:03.000 and thank you for helping the story to come out the way it has.
01:03:08.000 It's really important that people like you speak up when organizations
01:03:12.000 that we all love and want to succeed go off the rails.
01:03:15.000 So thanks for coming on.
01:03:16.000 Thank you.
01:03:17.000 We're going to ask you some questions from our supporters
01:03:19.000 that they've submitted in a second.
01:03:20.000 But before we do, what's the one thing we're not talking about
01:03:24.000 that we should be?
01:03:25.000 Before David answers a final question, at the end of the interview,
01:03:28.000 make sure to head over to our sub stack.
01:03:30.000 The link is in the description where you'll be able to see this.
01:03:34.000 Was there anyone at the BBC that you could tell about your concerns
01:03:38.000 about what was going on?
01:03:40.000 Is the BBC doing any similar antics with other right wing leaders?
01:03:45.000 Will the person or persons who actually did the Trump edits
01:03:48.000 ever be sacked or identified?
01:03:50.000 Okay, this might be a bit of a curve ball,
01:03:53.000 but I think you should be producing comedy and drama.
01:03:57.000 You too.
01:03:58.000 I think the trigonometry, you should set up a division.
01:04:03.000 I think you should crowdfund original content, original written drama comedy
01:04:10.000 and start putting, you're doing this, which is great.
01:04:14.000 You're in this sphere, but people need to be producing stuff
01:04:18.000 where there isn't the ideological weight of someone like the BBC,
01:04:24.000 where you can cast the people that you want for the stories that you want.
01:04:29.000 And like your podcast, it might grow slowly.
01:04:33.000 There'll be lots of challenges ahead, but I think that you need to be starting.
01:04:39.000 People like trigonometry and other people need to be making drama.
01:04:45.000 Start by making short films.
01:04:47.000 Start trying to get features made.
01:04:50.000 Get people in who unfund this stuff and take it on the road,
01:04:56.000 because you're going to have difficulties getting it shown at mainstream TV, etc.
01:05:01.000 But we need in this country a groundswell of independent journalism,
01:05:07.000 independent drama, independent advertising even.
01:05:12.000 I've got friends who work in film and drama and also in advertising.
01:05:18.000 And some of the lunacy that we see in news and current affairs
01:05:22.000 is all there in advertising and drama.
01:05:25.000 So I think that it's, I see it as an opportunity.
01:05:30.000 I think that you guys have got a great opportunity.
01:05:32.000 You've got a wonderful, you know, you've got a growing audience.
01:05:36.000 And if you were to ask them, we're going to make a horror film.
01:05:40.000 We're going to make a series of short horror films.
01:05:42.000 Does anybody want to get involved financially?
01:05:44.000 We'll package it all up.
01:05:46.000 I think that you guys are the future of independent media.
01:05:49.000 And I think you need to be, I think you need to be, what's the right word?
01:05:54.000 Exploiting that a bit more.
01:05:56.000 All right.
01:05:57.000 We will be exploiting everything.
01:05:59.000 We are called exploitative by many people.
01:06:02.000 So we're going to lean into it.
01:06:03.000 David, thank you so much for coming on.
01:06:05.000 Thank you so much.
01:06:06.000 Head on over to triggerpod.co.uk where we're going to ask some of your questions to David.
01:06:12.000 Does the BBC intentionally publish false or unverified information about Israel?
01:06:17.000 If it does, why?
01:06:24.000 .
01:06:35.000 .
01:06:36.000 .
01:06:37.000 .
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