TRIGGERnometry - Why I Left The Mainstream Media - Andrew Gold

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00:00:31.000 They want to be replaced with somebody, anyone from a minority background.

00:00:34.060 And I was just like, well, obviously not, because I'm a journalist.

00:00:36.840 And how insulting to the person from the minority background to be told, well, you're a token.

00:00:40.880 The arrogance and the way they just sort of decide this person can't have a career because of how they look, and this person can.

00:00:47.120 So I did say to this guy who was one of the producers or whatever, you know, I'm Jewish.

00:00:51.440 And he just started laughing.

00:00:52.780 Why do you think he was laughing?

00:00:53.720 Because he probably subscribes to the view that Jews rule the media. 0.54

00:00:58.540 But I'm done accepting that this is a way that we talk about different groups. 1.00

00:01:03.080 And we're not going to put up with this shit anymore. 0.99

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00:02:28.760 Andrew Gold, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:02:30.640 Good to have you on the show.

00:02:31.660 We have so much to talk about.

00:02:33.740 You used to work in the mainstream media.

00:02:35.940 Now you do your own thing like us here on YouTube.

00:02:38.060 And there's a lot to talk about, including some recent events, Nihal Athanayaki, and a bunch of other stuff that's happened to you as well.

00:02:46.720 Before we get into all that, who are you?

00:02:49.480 Yep, Andrew Gold.

00:02:50.680 I made documentaries in a sort of Louis Theroux mold, trying to aspire to that kind of thing, with exorcists and UFOs and meeting weird and strange people.

00:03:00.240 I got told after some time that I had to be behind the camera and no longer present my own ideas and journalistic work.

00:03:06.600 Happens to all of us, mate.

00:03:08.840 Father time is undefeated.

00:03:10.520 Man, it was horrific, though.

00:03:12.520 And yeah, they wanted me replaced with anyone from a minority background.

00:03:16.740 Anyway, so that made me start a YouTube channel and get going from there.

00:03:20.160 And that's, I suppose, who I am.

00:03:22.080 Well, that's really interesting, not least because the very conversation I playfully joked about now is obviously a big part of everything that seems to be happening in the media and, frankly, elsewhere as well.

00:03:34.940 What was your experience?

00:03:36.460 You say you were basically, you needed to be replaced with somebody who's a minority.

00:03:41.760 You yourself, by the way, are from a minority background.

00:03:44.120 So that's kind of interesting.

00:03:45.320 We'll get into that as well.

00:03:46.880 Talk to us about what happened.

00:03:47.960 Yeah, so I was, right, we made this exorcist film after trying to push it to the BBC for ages.

00:03:55.760 I don't have a divine right to be able to sell documentaries to the BBC or anything like that.

00:04:00.020 But I made it with a friend, basically.

00:04:01.740 Typically, it costs £100,000 or something to make a documentary like that.

00:04:05.980 But we made it with nothing, like not even £100 or anything.

00:04:08.900 We just went and did it.

00:04:09.880 We learned as we were doing it because we were so obsessed with the idea of making this film.

00:04:13.860 We made it.

00:04:14.680 It won Film Festival Awards and it took two years to pushing the BBC, pushing, pushing, pushing.

00:04:20.080 Getting told a lot, I looked a bit too much like Louis Theroux for them to even want to watch it.

00:04:24.140 But OK.

00:04:25.380 And eventually someone said, look, if I watch it, will you stop?

00:04:27.840 You know, just leave me alone.

00:04:28.960 And I was like, yeah, please, please, please just watch it.

00:04:31.080 Please just watch the film.

00:04:32.160 They watched it, BBC, and they took it.

00:04:34.040 Didn't pay me.

00:04:34.880 Well, they paid us £6,000.

00:04:36.140 When you compare that to sort of the Gary Lineker money, you know, millions that they're getting, we made this whole film.

00:04:42.260 And they were just like, take it or leave it.

00:04:44.160 And they wanted changes and things like legal checks and things that were going to cost a lot more than £6,000.

00:04:50.360 So we ended up in debt to get this film away.

00:04:53.380 We made them aware of that and they just didn't care.

00:04:55.240 That was really frustrating because the BBC has this image or it prides itself on helping new young talent to get to a good start.

00:05:04.240 And they pretty much did everything they could to not help me and David, my director, to do that.

00:05:09.880 Film went out, did really well, well-received.

00:05:12.400 Celebrities were watching it and saying things.

00:05:13.860 It was a great moment.

00:05:14.760 You know, I would say I was really happy.

00:05:16.440 It actually made me depressed, but that's a whole other thing.

00:05:19.540 When you finally get what you want, you're like, oh, you know, you want to sort of show your teachers.

00:05:23.700 And the teachers are all dead by now.

00:05:26.120 That's it.

00:05:27.420 At least something to celebrate.

00:05:30.600 Yes.

00:05:31.740 Anyway, but the film's out.

00:05:32.720 I'm excited at this point.

00:05:33.740 It gets into 2018's best of the BBC list.

00:05:36.500 It was a whole big thing.

00:05:37.280 I was so excited and happy in that respect.

00:05:39.580 And then it's like, okay, let's go and talk to the producers.

00:05:43.620 What's next?

00:05:44.560 I had loads of ideas.

00:05:45.460 I speak five languages.

00:05:46.900 I thought if I'm going to try and do something similar to what Louis Theroux had done,

00:05:50.340 and for those outside the UK, he's a journalist who looks at weird and strange subcultures.

00:05:55.720 I want to be able to do it in different languages.

00:05:57.960 I want to be able to investigate in Spanish or German and go meet these weird, strange people 1.00

00:06:01.280 that other presenters don't have access to because it's such a competitive genre.

00:06:05.060 And you need to have something more than everyone else if you want to have a chance.

00:06:08.120 So I spent years learning languages, living in different places to do this.

00:06:12.360 And I had stories from around the world, like mad stories you wouldn't believe, just mad

00:06:16.580 things that are going on that are just bonkers.

00:06:18.720 And I took them to the BBC.

00:06:19.920 They loved them.

00:06:20.900 And we're sitting there.

00:06:22.200 They're going, oh, wow, wow, this is a people are being made to stand in anthills because

00:06:26.660 they've committed adultery in Bolivia. 0.99

00:06:28.740 It's like, yeah, they're crazy. 0.99

00:06:30.100 And they were just very lukewarm. 0.87

00:06:32.020 They wouldn't necessarily say what the problem was, but they were like, okay, let's talk about

00:06:36.540 it.

00:06:36.880 Why don't you speak to these production companies?

00:06:38.500 Because they act as intermediaries.

00:06:39.880 You get the production company in the middle, TV channel, and me.

00:06:43.440 When I spoke to production companies, I had an agent by this point.

00:06:46.020 My agent set me up with about 50 to 100 production companies over a period of five years.

00:06:51.360 Every single one of them, I'm not talking about 99%, I'm saying 100% of them, at some

00:06:56.120 point in the meeting, while everything's going very well, jovial, you're going to, oh, this

00:06:59.680 is great, love these ideas, said, unfortunately, to get this to the BBC or Channel 4, which in

00:07:05.460 many respects is even more vehement with their not wanting white people, you would

00:07:09.760 have to be from a minority background.

00:07:11.800 So are you going to be okay with being behind the camera?

00:07:15.400 And we would have a journalist from a minority background in front.

00:07:18.760 And I was just like, well, obviously not, because I'm a journalist.

00:07:21.780 And I investigated these things for years.

00:07:23.260 I learned the languages.

00:07:24.320 I built the relationships with Bolivian indigenous people who are putting people in 1.00

00:07:28.200 anthills.

00:07:28.500 I went and spoke to them to get this story.

00:07:30.600 I'm not going to like just let some.

00:07:31.940 And how insulting to the person from the minority background to be told, well, you're a token.

00:07:35.980 Come and look at this Bolivian whatever.

00:07:37.640 So that's what happened.

00:07:39.500 It was very painful and sad and upsetting because I was on minimum wage at the time.

00:07:43.780 I was scrapping as most sort of media people are until they take off or whatever it is.

00:07:47.560 You're really scrapping to, you know, how am I going to get money for the next food on

00:07:51.100 the table?

00:07:51.540 I'm living in all these different places, trying to get stories together.

00:07:54.680 And it was a difficult time.

00:07:56.200 Yes, I could have just got a job anywhere, you know, in a shop.

00:07:59.040 I was working.

00:07:59.760 But the only way to make this sort of dream of making TV work was to do things like copywriting

00:08:04.420 online and things like that, which it doesn't pay very well.

00:08:06.940 So every time I got a knockback, every time I thought, OK, this is the time this person

00:08:10.680 doesn't seem to care that I'm white.

00:08:12.100 Wow, amazing.

00:08:14.220 Eventually, it came up down the line.

00:08:15.740 You know, if they didn't say it, the next person they spoke to was like, yeah, it can't

00:08:18.520 be him, unfortunately.

00:08:19.500 So that's that's what happened.

00:08:20.640 That is so depressing.

00:08:25.020 That is so, so, so depressing, because what it's actually saying is the calibre of your

00:08:29.380 work doesn't matter.

00:08:30.500 Your talent doesn't matter.

00:08:32.180 What matters the most about you is your skin colour.

00:08:36.060 Well, and also, that's why it's typically not creative people who make these kinds of

00:08:39.660 decisions.

00:08:39.960 It's the people who are the gatekeepers of creativity, which is so sad.

00:08:44.380 So I'm sitting in meetings with people who have zero creativity, who have never in their

00:08:48.440 lives, try to go out on a limb and make something and do something, who have come out of university

00:08:52.500 and somehow been given these jobs as, as I say, gatekeepers, with the arrogance and the

00:08:57.900 way they just sort of decide this person can't have a career because of how they look and

00:09:01.280 this person can.

00:09:02.680 And they seem to not realise that it actually involves talent.

00:09:06.180 And, you know, it's not easy to do.

00:09:08.120 I mean, Louis Theroux is very good.

00:09:08.960 He's a good example.

00:09:09.560 He's very good.

00:09:10.700 People watch him because he's very good.

00:09:12.180 There's a reason people aren't watching the BBC very much anymore, because a lot of the

00:09:15.600 people on there aren't very good.

00:09:16.700 Because the creative people, sorry, the people in charge of who can be on, have lost sight

00:09:21.140 of what is the most important thing in making TV shows, which is actual talent.

00:09:25.640 And we see it.

00:09:27.260 It's not just in documentary filmmaking.

00:09:28.860 It's in comedy.

00:09:29.620 It's in dramas.

00:09:30.820 It's in film.

00:09:33.040 It just seems that whatever you want to call this thing, diversity, equity, inclusion,

00:09:37.980 it just seems to have run rampant and completely destroyed or helped to destroy entire industries

00:09:45.500 and corporations like the BBC.

00:09:47.860 Well, it looks like they are on their way out.

00:09:50.180 And we might talk about this more later.

00:09:51.340 I don't know, but I was watching Have I Got News for You the other day.

00:09:53.760 And Ian Hislop, again, it's a topical news show in the UK that's very popular.

00:09:57.700 And he talks about Piers Morgan and talk TV and said something like, well, if anyone's

00:10:02.900 even watching that show, there's pen everywhere and all that.

00:10:05.620 And I thought, are you not aware that Piers Morgan gets millions and millions of views?

00:10:09.180 And you guys are in a bubble that gets very few views.

00:10:12.360 And to not be aware of that when your entire job, your entire status as this sort of media

00:10:19.400 mogul that Ian Hislop is, is based on knowing what is going on in the media.

00:10:23.380 For him to not know that Piers Morgan is hugely popular around the world, whether you

00:10:27.380 like him or not, is a travesty.

00:10:29.500 So they just don't know what's going on outside of their bubble.

00:10:32.160 That is so fascinating to me because, as you know, Private Eye, Ian Hislop's magazine

00:10:36.660 that he edits, they did a kind of hit piece or whatever, whatever piece on us.

00:10:41.940 And then I was like, I looked up their circulation and I was like, well, of course you didn't

00:10:45.700 hit piece on us because we're so much bigger than you now.

00:10:48.280 And it was weird to me because, as you say, they simultaneously, their numbers are going

00:10:54.740 through the floor, the BBC.

00:10:56.500 They're cancelling shows left, right and centre.

00:10:59.060 I mean, with comedy, Mock the Week is gone.

00:11:01.360 MASH Report is gone.

00:11:03.020 Live at the Apollo numbers, I'm being told, are declining.

00:11:05.720 And eventually will be cancelled as well.

00:11:08.320 Newsnight has had to rejig a bunch.

00:11:10.100 I mean, we could go on and on and on, right?

00:11:12.180 So they're really struggling.

00:11:13.280 But at the same time, there's this incredible sneering smugness of like, we are the people

00:11:22.000 with all the power.

00:11:22.960 And I'm just like, you're not.

00:11:24.560 You're really, really not.

00:11:25.920 Well, all they have now is that position as the legacy media.

00:11:28.460 I remember seeing years ago, I was at a talk a YouTuber was giving where he said exactly

00:11:33.800 this at a panel.

00:11:35.840 He was at a panel with like Nat Geo and BBC and all these people.

00:11:38.720 And he was like the outside of the YouTuber.

00:11:40.860 And he was saying, oh, there's something about it that I still want to make my shows on the

00:11:43.820 BBC.

00:11:44.140 I still want to have Channel 4 and all these things.

00:11:45.920 And I think it's that my parents will be impressed.

00:11:47.640 And it's just, it's so mad because the numbers are huge on YouTube.

00:11:52.300 They're so much bigger and you can attract a much wider audience.

00:11:54.780 There is still something and it's all they have left is this idea that we are legacy and

00:11:59.080 we have gatekeepers.

00:12:00.600 The irony is it's less democratic, but they position it as somehow more valuable.

00:12:05.820 Well, the idea is that it's curated.

00:12:08.020 Yes.

00:12:08.600 And therefore better.

00:12:09.500 And I don't know that in 2023, that really is true because it's curated by gatekeepers

00:12:16.140 in the legacy media, but it's not like YouTube is uncurated.

00:12:20.520 It is curated by the public.

00:12:22.400 Whether the, if the public click on your content, it goes up.

00:12:26.400 And if they don't, it goes down.

00:12:27.940 And so the cream tends to rise to the top.

00:12:30.780 Although, I mean, some of the stuff 18 year olds watch is a bit of an exception, but you

00:12:34.660 know what I mean?

00:12:35.180 And I thought, I thought it was beautifully summed up in the last few weeks as we're recording

00:12:40.020 this by this incident with the BBC Radio 5 Live presenter, Nihal Athanayaki, who basically

00:12:46.740 went out and said, what I think is probably the most racist thing I've ever heard anyone

00:12:51.140 publicly say, which we'll get into.

00:12:53.920 And more interesting than, than him, because, you know, I have my opinions about him, was the

00:12:59.120 BBC's reaction. 0.90

00:13:00.120 This guy said that he has mental health issues because he's surrounded by white people.

00:13:04.580 And the reaction from the BBC was to apologize effectively to him and say, no, we're working

00:13:09.900 really hard to reduce the number of white people in an organization that is already massively 0.93

00:13:15.760 overrepresented in terms of minorities.

00:13:19.020 Yeah.

00:13:19.340 It just sums it up for me.

00:13:20.980 And this is a guy who makes a really, really good salary from it while probably not bringing

00:13:25.580 in as much value as he costs.

00:13:27.820 Quite, yeah, quite possibly.

00:13:29.060 I don't watch or listen to him very much.

00:13:31.180 He might be very good at what he does.

00:13:32.620 There were a lot of...

00:13:33.300 I've been on his show.

00:13:33.820 Is he what...

00:13:34.640 We had a debate about comedy in which he explained that John Cleese's opinion on comedy

00:13:38.320 is relevant.

00:13:39.360 Oh.

00:13:40.200 Well, what has John Cleese done in comedy?

00:13:41.620 Exactly.

00:13:42.180 Who's John...

00:13:42.500 What has John Cleese ever done for us?

00:13:44.180 Exactly.

00:13:45.140 Yeah.

00:13:45.660 Yeah.

00:13:46.280 Ni Hao, I...

00:13:47.480 It's a bizarre one, isn't it?

00:13:48.580 Because we've got a guy here who is, in terms of privilege, if we're going to use their

00:13:52.160 words, in terms of privilege and status and all of these kinds of things, in the top 0.0001%

00:13:56.660 of just the UK.

00:13:57.860 If you expand that to the world, people are born in bins in Bangladesh and all sorts of 0.75

00:14:02.480 places, right?

00:14:03.460 There is no number that I can go on long enough with the 0.000 that is sufficient to explain

00:14:08.320 just how privileged and status-worthy this man is.

00:14:11.580 And I think that speaks to the issues that we have with socialism and woke culture.

00:14:17.280 Because he is an example of how you get what you want and it's never enough.

00:14:21.820 So he's gotten what he wants by a million miles better than he could have ever dreamed of.

00:14:25.980 And he has it.

00:14:26.680 And now it's like, but I now also want people who look like me, around me, and I want to

00:14:30.980 start changing the numbers of different demographics.

00:14:33.080 And it's never going to be enough because we all have, as a human thing, an obsessive

00:14:36.720 compulsion, I think, to start making things neater and tidier around us.

00:14:40.940 Not me, mate, unfortunately.

00:14:43.240 Yeah.

00:14:43.740 Everyone aside from you, though, we're trying to make...

00:14:46.060 But there is that control that you have.

00:14:47.260 Yeah.

00:14:47.360 You want to create order and control of your immediate environment.

00:14:50.200 Yeah.

00:14:50.360 I think that's right.

00:14:51.080 And I don't know if he actually knows the statistics.

00:14:54.320 Maybe he doesn't know.

00:14:55.240 There's something called diamond diversity, which is like the neutral, I don't know what

00:14:59.780 you'd call it, abjudicator of TV across the UK.

00:15:03.800 So it's not just the BBC.

00:15:04.720 We're looking at Sky Channel 4 and all these different channels.

00:15:08.360 And when I was struggling, I started looking this up, diamond diversity.

00:15:11.300 And the BBC use it.

00:15:12.220 They all use diamond diversity.

00:15:13.640 No one seems to know about it in the public.

00:15:15.240 The Telegraph once ran a tiny little article about them and nobody else seems to know about

00:15:18.840 diamond diversity.

00:15:19.460 What they do is they find all the stats of minorities.

00:15:22.480 They don't include Jews, of course, but other minorities and how well they're doing in the

00:15:27.760 media industry, both on screen and off screen.

00:15:30.640 And what they've been finding for years now, even before the whole sort of woke apocalypse

00:15:34.740 started to come to the fore, is that minorities are significantly overrepresented on TV.

00:15:41.100 Now, the problem is for these people who work at diamond diversity is they need to keep their jobs, right?

00:15:46.040 Because if everything is diverse, they've done their jobs and there's nothing left. 1.00

00:15:49.120 So you can look at the latest report.

00:15:50.740 There's a new report every year or two.

00:15:52.080 It's diamond diversity six.

00:15:53.460 And you can look that up online.

00:15:55.040 And it's mad.

00:15:56.220 It is mad.

00:15:56.880 And it really is about that overused saying.

00:16:00.060 But it's true that those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

00:16:04.600 And I think you look at it's very Orwellian.

00:16:07.280 It's the first page of the diamond diversity.

00:16:08.980 They sum it up and they say, you know, we really need to work on getting women more off screen roles. 0.51

00:16:13.740 There's not enough off screen roles for women at the top in the senior roles. 1.00

00:16:16.420 So you go and have a look at the actual details.

00:16:18.960 And it's true. 0.56

00:16:19.460 There are more directors who are men.

00:16:21.000 There are more writers who are men.

00:16:22.480 Not that many more, but a little bit more.

00:16:24.400 Producers, they're pretty much equal.

00:16:26.560 When you go higher and higher, they're dominated by women. 1.00

00:16:30.320 So commissioning editors.

00:16:32.540 So the gatekeepers, the people who actually hire those male directors and writers are overwhelmingly women, which is ironic. 0.70

00:16:38.500 You know, the complaint is they're the ones deciding that.

00:16:40.840 And then the showrunners at the very, very top, the top, top people, 90% are women.

00:16:47.140 But that's how they mess with things.

00:16:48.500 That's how they try and get you to agree to their ideology.

00:16:51.740 The first page, oh, there's not enough women in the senior roles because there's not enough directors and writers who are women. 1.00

00:16:56.600 The women are the ones hiring those male directors because they are above them. 1.00

00:17:00.880 Now, with diversity, same thing happens.

00:17:04.340 Oh, we need to get more diversity.

00:17:05.860 We need to, oh, we're still working really hard.

00:17:07.880 You can see that people from BAME, which is the British way of saying minorities, black, Asian, minority, ethnic,

00:17:13.080 are about doubly overrepresented compared to the population at large.

00:17:18.280 That's huge.

00:17:19.460 That's more than a significant difference.

00:17:21.840 It's particularly true in children's TV.

00:17:24.520 I don't know why necessarily.

00:17:25.940 Comedy.

00:17:27.060 And it's particularly untrue.

00:17:28.100 The only place where there's slightly less than the actual population at large is factual.

00:17:34.360 And that's also quite funny, really, because, you know, there's a place where facts are allowed.

00:17:38.660 And, you know, that's where it's not that way.

00:17:40.980 But comedy, children's TV, all these kinds of things, significantly overrepresented.

00:17:45.240 But these people need a job.

00:17:46.440 So that's what's going on.

00:17:47.380 They're pushing and pushing because they are earning money out of telling us and making us believe it.

00:17:51.040 And Ni Hao is probably believing what he's hearing.

00:17:53.940 And he's pushing this kind of agenda.

00:17:55.020 And I don't think it's that far-fetched to say that kind of philosophy, when taken to its limit,

00:18:00.120 causes what happened the other day at the top of the universities in America.

00:18:03.240 Does calling for the genocide of Jews violate MIT's code of conduct or rules regarding bullying and harassment?

00:18:11.320 Yes or no?

00:18:12.220 If targeted at individuals, not making public statements.

00:18:16.460 Yes or no?

00:18:18.180 Calling for the genocide of Jews does not constitute bullying and harassment?

00:18:21.840 I have not heard calling for the genocide for Jews on our campus.

00:18:25.280 But you've heard chants for intifada?

00:18:27.880 I've heard chants, which can be anti-Semitic depending on the context, 0.97

00:18:32.260 when calling for the elimination of the Jewish people.

00:18:35.680 So those would not be according to the MIT's code of conduct or rules?

00:18:40.680 That would be investigated as harassment, if pervasive and severe.

00:18:46.340 Ms. McGill, at Penn, does calling for the genocide of Jews violate Penn's rules or code of conduct?

00:18:54.340 Yes or no?

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00:19:24.420 If the speech turns into conduct, it can be harassment.

00:19:32.240 Yes.

00:19:32.540 I am asking, specifically calling for the genocide of Jews, does that constitute bullying or harassment?

00:19:39.700 If it is directed and severe or pervasive, it is harassment.

00:19:45.540 So the answer is yes.

00:19:47.540 It is a context-dependent decision, Congresswoman.

00:19:50.180 It's a context-dependent decision.

00:19:52.120 That's your testimony today.

00:19:53.420 Calling for the genocide of Jews is depending upon the context.

00:19:57.320 That is not bullying or harassment.

00:19:59.740 This is the easiest question to answer yes, Ms. McGill.

00:20:03.280 So is your testimony that you will not answer yes?

00:20:08.780 If it is, if the speech becomes conduct, it can be harassment.

00:20:15.860 Yes.

00:20:16.140 Conduct meaning committing the act of genocide?

00:20:19.720 The speech is not harassment?

00:20:21.920 This is unacceptable, Ms. McGill.

00:20:23.560 I'm going to give you one more opportunity for the world to see your answer.

00:20:27.740 Does calling for the genocide of Jews violate Penn's code of conduct when it comes to bullying and harassment?

00:20:36.200 Yes or no?

00:20:39.540 It can be harassment.

00:20:41.660 The answer is yes.

00:20:43.820 And Dr. Gay, at Harvard, does calling for the genocide of Jews violate Harvard's rules of bullying and harassment?

00:20:51.540 Yes or no? 0.94

00:20:53.200 It can be, depending on the context.

00:20:55.860 What's the context?

00:20:57.740 Targeted as an individual?

00:20:59.420 Targeted at an individual?

00:21:01.160 It's targeted at Jewish students, Jewish individuals.

00:21:05.320 Do you understand your testimony is dehumanizing them?

00:21:08.080 Do you understand that dehumanization is part of anti-Semitism?

00:21:13.960 I will ask you one more time.

00:21:16.820 Does calling for the genocide of Jews violate Harvard's rules of bullying and harassment?

00:21:22.800 Yes or no?

00:21:24.820 Anti-Semitic rhetoric.

00:21:25.920 And is it anti-Semitic rhetoric?

00:21:27.760 Anti-Semitic rhetoric when it crosses into conduct that amounts to bullying, harassment, intimidation?

00:21:35.760 That is actionable conduct and we do take action.

00:21:39.540 So the answer is yes, that calling for the genocide of Jews violates Harvard's code of conduct.

00:21:46.600 Correct.

00:21:46.860 Again, it depends on the context.

00:21:51.480 It does not depend on the context.

00:21:53.620 The answer is yes, and this is why you should resign.

00:21:56.840 These are unacceptable answers across the board.

00:21:59.400 Because we have this Olympics now, because everybody is being pushed to start comparing who is where in the hierarchy of ideology, racism, all sorts of things.

00:22:08.880 And we've now got presidents of American universities basically calling for genocide of Jews.

00:22:15.560 And that's why I think this is a problem.

00:22:17.060 They weren't calling for it.

00:22:18.200 They were saying people calling for the genocide of Jews is harassment or isn't based on the context, which, by the way, we talked about this the other day on one of our Raw shows.

00:22:28.520 It's like if they'd been consistent about this throughout the last however many years, you'd sort of go, well, look, you know, universities in America are bastions of free speech.

00:22:39.040 You know, the campus is where young people go to be a bit crazy and we must give them extra leeway. 0.99

00:22:44.400 This is where they, you know, test out ideas and then eventually they go into the real world and whatever.

00:22:48.860 But that's not what's been happening.

00:22:50.120 What's been happening is for the last six years or 10 years or however long it's been, it's like you ask me where I'm from.

00:22:55.420 It's a microgram.

00:22:56.820 That's what's been happening.

00:22:58.520 So there's a massive inconsistency there, which you're pointing to.

00:23:02.180 And the thing with Nihal is, look, I don't like him. 1.00

00:23:06.540 I don't think he's particularly good at his job, but that's irrelevant.

00:23:08.760 My point is something else, which is how is it acceptable for somebody to openly be racist against white people or any people?

00:23:17.400 And then for the major institution that is funded by quite a lot of white people, by the way, in this country, to then apologize to them. 0.63

00:23:25.300 And that's why people are like asking me why I'm going at him so hard.

00:23:29.300 I'm done.

00:23:30.180 I'm done playing with these people.

00:23:31.720 I'm done accepting that this is a way that we talk about different groups because these people think that they can get away with it.

00:23:38.640 No, you can't.

00:23:39.520 You don't have a monopoly on the microphone anymore.

00:23:43.120 There are other voices now. 1.00

00:23:44.360 And we're not going to put up with this shit anymore. 1.00

00:23:46.220 We're just not. 1.00

00:23:46.700 I think you're absolutely right.

00:23:48.580 And it's something you guys have spoken about before.

00:23:50.300 I mean, the road to hell is paper with good intentions.

00:23:53.300 This idea, and I think it needs to be taught in schools a little bit, this idea that when bad people come, they're going to come and say, bad, bad, bad, and get everyone is so childish.

00:24:02.160 It's so facile.

00:24:02.820 And the reality every single time throughout history has been that people have come along with ideas that at that time seemed progressive and right and right on and useful.

00:24:12.580 And at the moment, I think it's just that humans, I am a bit nihilistic.

00:24:15.980 And I think humans in general are tribalistic and we're tribal.

00:24:19.260 And we're chimpanzees to an extent.

00:24:21.920 And we do feel anger and annoyance.

00:24:24.600 I was telling you before we came on, I get annoyed if people on the plane touch me.

00:24:28.020 I'm annoyed. 0.99

00:24:28.600 And there is a tiny bit of me going, I should kill that guy. 0.98

00:24:30.600 And I go, no, no, because I'm a real person and I'm a human. 0.98

00:24:33.520 And he's just sort of accidentally brushed my leg.

00:24:35.060 And he deserves as much right.

00:24:36.160 We live in a society, as George Costanza and Seinfeld would say.

00:24:39.060 So I think we lose track of that sometimes, that we will, when allowed, when it is permissible, we will be racist.

00:24:47.060 We actually will.

00:24:47.560 So all this stuff about Prince Harry and unconscious bias, blah, blah, blah, there is an element of that in all of us.

00:24:52.280 But it's not coming from where he thinks it is.

00:24:54.300 It's actually, where's the place in today's society where I can be racist and can be horrible?

00:24:59.100 And Nihal has found that place, unfortunately. 0.71

00:25:02.180 We'll be back with Andrew in a minute.

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00:26:57.440 Back to the interview.

00:26:58.420 It's really depressing because I thought we'd got to a place, or we're getting to a place is a more accurate way of summing it up,

00:27:06.660 where we all accepted that gender, race, ethnicity, it doesn't matter.

00:27:12.140 When you're hiring somebody, you want the best person for a job.

00:27:15.120 You're a football fan.

00:27:16.200 You don't care if the striker is a Muslim from Egypt like Mohamed Salah.

00:27:22.380 All you care about is that he's incredible at his job.

00:27:25.200 And for someone to then say they don't want this particular racial group in the office or to be surrounded by them is abhorrent. 0.96

00:27:35.340 Was it Arsenal's women's team recently that had to apologise because they had no black players?

00:27:40.640 I mean, that is taking this to the limit.

00:27:42.200 I mean, it's sport.

00:27:43.220 Sport, you just need the best of the best of the best.

00:27:46.200 And that was just absolutely bonkers.

00:27:47.760 Yeah, and I think what it also shows as well is that the institution is just completely corrupted by this ideology.

00:27:56.140 And it gives me no joy to say this because I love the BBC.

00:28:01.420 If I think about my favourite documentaries, BBC.

00:28:04.400 If I think about my favourite comedy programmes, very frequently, BBC.

00:28:08.400 The news, everything about it, the World Service.

00:28:11.500 And to see the disarray it's currently falling into, it's heartbreaking.

00:28:16.340 Yeah, yeah.

00:28:17.460 It is sad.

00:28:18.240 I mean, look, these are ideas that, if you just think about the ideas in the first place, they're not necessarily bad, taken at a very minute level.

00:28:26.240 I mean, you don't want people growing up and not being able to at all recognise, you know, there'd be no way for black people to get into media.

00:28:33.580 If it was a situation, let's say the Diamond Diversity came out and said,

00:28:36.300 actually, despite there being 18% of BAME people in the UK, only 3% or 4% are on TV.

00:28:43.840 I don't know what the answer is because I don't like the idea of forcing change like that.

00:28:48.760 Coleman Hughes is a great speaker.

00:28:50.540 And he had this whole clash recently with TED Talks because he thinks that they were dismissing him and subduing his video because he was suggesting that, you know, affirmative action in this sense is not a good idea.

00:29:02.420 And he said, look, if you want to do this, invest in communities from, you know, grassroots, help communities from the beginning.

00:29:08.880 And you should look at the communities that are the poorest, not necessarily by their skin colour.

00:29:12.060 Because we know that in like free school meals schools, some of the poorest schools in the country, that black Africans actually do significantly better, black people of African heritage, significantly better than white kids.

00:29:24.140 Black people of Caribbean heritage don't do better. 1.00

00:29:26.860 They do really badly as well as the white kid. 1.00

00:29:28.980 You know, so those are the words.

00:29:29.880 So what's going on there?

00:29:31.100 That's if you do really want to, if you really cared, if they really cared about getting that intersectionality idea right from the start and going, OK, let's look at that.

00:29:39.160 The poorest people are actually the ones doing worse.

00:29:41.200 That's how it would be done.

00:29:42.940 But I mean, African kids of African heritage do really well.

00:29:46.660 Kids of South Asian heritage like Nihal do really, really well. 1.00

00:29:50.560 That's what I think.

00:29:51.200 If they want to look at it, that's where they should be looking.

00:29:53.360 And it's not just affected mainstream broadcasting.

00:29:56.500 It's also podcasting as well.

00:29:59.060 So tell us about that, because that blows my mind.

00:30:01.520 Because the whole point to me of podcasting is that it's independent.

00:30:04.880 It's got a punk element.

00:30:06.000 There's a punk aesthetic.

00:30:07.440 Anybody can set up a podcast.

00:30:08.860 Yeah, this is punk.

00:30:11.200 Wherever independent creatives will start to make art, there will be psychopaths out there to control them and decide which of them get through.

00:30:22.560 I spoke to a punk rocker who's been cancelled recently, Louise Distrasse.

00:30:26.320 I mean, she's like a punk rocker. 1.00

00:30:27.660 And you're supposed to be able to say whatever you want. 0.65

00:30:29.380 That's a whole bloody point.

00:30:30.400 And the way that agents have treated her, the way that people have treated her, and just not giving her her money. 0.93

00:30:35.960 I mean, surely that's a significantly worse crime than worrying about her saying that trans women are not women.

00:30:41.500 That's what she said.

00:30:43.160 Sorry.

00:30:44.400 He has an allergic reaction to that statement.

00:30:46.100 Yeah, exactly.

00:30:48.740 Giving someone money?

00:30:49.880 I'm Jewish.

00:30:50.400 What are you doing?

00:30:50.900 I thought trans women are women was what it was. 0.99

00:30:55.120 Trans women are women. 0.90

00:30:55.840 No.

00:30:57.140 Anyway, so she said that, and people have just taken advantage of her and kicked her out and not paid her.

00:31:01.340 And they've basically said like, oh, well, you said these offensive things, so we don't have to give you money now.

00:31:05.240 It's bonkers, right?

00:31:06.480 The podcasting industry is the same thing.

00:31:08.880 Also, the kinds of people that go into wishy-washy careers like ours, they are wishy-washy to an extent.

00:31:13.980 They're not like proper jobs in some respects.

00:31:16.640 It's media, publishing.

00:31:17.840 Right, I had to get up at like nine this morning.

00:31:20.000 What are you talking about?

00:31:21.680 I got here.

00:31:22.300 He was just lying around.

00:31:23.320 No, we're very hardworking, but they're not the kinds of jobs that, I don't know.

00:31:28.260 I mean, my parents didn't want me to be a YouTuber.

00:31:29.640 I was just joking.

00:31:30.260 No, no, no, no.

00:31:31.200 These aren't real.

00:31:31.800 It's like when we interviewed Bill Burr.

00:31:33.840 Do you not worry that they're going to want to go into show business and you having seen like the way show business is?

00:31:39.500 No, show business is awesome.

00:31:41.540 Like, none of us have a real job.

00:31:42.860 What are we doing right now?

00:31:44.220 I'm just going to say, what is today?

00:31:45.580 Today is Tuesday?

00:31:46.520 Yeah.

00:31:47.080 Yeah.

00:31:47.720 Oh, we got jackets on and we're talking. 0.99

00:31:50.220 This isn't a fucking real job. 0.99

00:31:52.980 I love that. 0.99

00:31:53.760 No, no, you're absolutely right.

00:31:54.980 Yeah.

00:31:55.380 So you were saying these kind of industries.

00:31:58.000 They attract psychopaths who want to take advantage and want to then put their imprint on it.

00:32:02.000 But like I said before, these are not creatives.

00:32:04.220 These are not people who understand how creativity works.

00:32:06.500 So just the other day, this was a week or two ago, and it wasn't reported in the media at all.

00:32:11.240 We had, in the UK, there were two big sort of award ceremonies for podcasters.

00:32:15.620 Again, you and I, we're sort of lucky that we can be outside of that really, and we live on YouTube and we're not bothered by that stuff.

00:32:21.060 But a lot of people do rely on that because that's how they get their marketing.

00:32:24.760 Audio podcasting, unlike YouTube, has no discoverability.

00:32:27.640 It means that unless you have a big name and a good way, somehow money, to get your podcast out there, you can't really do it.

00:32:34.680 Whereas on YouTube, if it does well, YouTube pushes your video out.

00:32:37.680 So audio podcasters really rely on marketing and award ceremonies are pretty much the main way to do that.

00:32:43.820 At the Audio Podcast Awards, they had a guy get up on stage, Axel Kakutie, I think his name is, but someone can correct me later.

00:32:51.940 And he gave what was basically a call to arms against Israel just after October 7th, and really passionately so. 0.99

00:33:01.580 He was supposed to just get up and give an award.

00:33:03.200 But this is a guy who is a far left, totally untalented person, who in that podcast industry in the UK is a big deal,

00:33:10.440 but outside of it is, no one knows who he is.

00:33:13.740 He's on stage, and he was giving like a rallying cry.

00:33:16.440 Now, you won't be surprised to know that their main speaker there at the awards ceremony was one Nish Kumar,

00:33:22.300 who is always at the centre of all of this as well.

00:33:24.280 So he was also like getting them all going, yeah, genocide, they're committing genocide.

00:33:28.880 There were a few Jewish people in the audience, relatively few, despite the myth that Jews pervaded all aspects of the media.

00:33:34.700 But there were a few there who I've heard from, who were just absolutely mortified, gutted, and frightened for their lives.

00:33:42.120 But that's how far these things got.

00:33:43.420 And they got in touch afterwards with the Audio Production Awards ceremony, and they were just like,

00:33:47.640 well, you know, what can we do? It's what the speakers have said, and so on.

00:33:50.460 But imagine if someone had gotten up and said, oh, we defend Israel's right to defend itself, or something like that.

00:33:55.800 Nah, would have been absolutely killed.

00:33:58.020 So that's the Audio Production Awards.

00:33:59.700 Then you've got the British Podcast Awards, who it is just mind-boggling what they get up to.

00:34:06.100 When I first started, I didn't have any listeners or anything, so I applied for it.

00:34:10.320 But you read, they do 33% of their judging.

00:34:13.580 So they judge 33% on the quality of the podcast. 33.

00:34:17.760 66% is like wishy-washy stuff, which basically means diversity.

00:34:22.380 What does that mean, just to interrupt, judging on the quality of the podcast?

00:34:25.480 Are we talking about the audio quality, how it sounds, or the guests, or the conversations?

00:34:30.500 How did they... I don't understand what that means, Andrew.

00:34:33.260 Well, the award ceremony is ridiculous anyway, right?

00:34:35.420 Well, this is what I was going to say. 0.50

00:34:36.820 It's like, I almost don't... I'm not even that interested in this conversation.

00:34:40.040 This is no offence to you, because this is all the old-school legacy bollocks.

00:34:45.420 Yeah.

00:34:45.720 That we are all refusing to engage in, and that's why we're all doing well, right?

00:34:51.000 Because it's all fake.

00:34:52.560 The only real test of content is whether people consume it or not.

00:34:57.120 That's it.

00:34:58.000 That's it.

00:34:58.860 The fact that three people, or 10 people, or 50 people in a room sat and went,

00:35:02.740 oh, this is good, and there's a brown... 0.99

00:35:05.000 Like, no one gives a shit. 0.99

00:35:07.820 And they're all going to fail. 0.99

00:35:08.860 And this is the thing.

00:35:09.880 It's like the BBC has started podcasts, and you're going,

00:35:15.300 why don't you look at what actually works?

00:35:18.180 Look, steal our idea.

00:35:19.660 Get two people who are better looking and funnier and whatever.

00:35:22.900 Impossible.

00:35:24.000 Thank you.

00:35:24.880 Correct.

00:35:26.440 That's a good joke.

00:35:29.180 And do the same thing.

00:35:30.880 But they can't.

00:35:32.360 They can't, because they can't have the actual conversations that we are having here,

00:35:37.400 because ideologically, they can't actually face reality.

00:35:42.460 And that is all. 1.00

00:35:43.320 So, you know what, I'm just saying to you guys, let these people do their stupid awards 1.00

00:35:49.720 and do all this stupid crap, because it just helps us. 1.00

00:35:52.660 Yeah, you're right. 1.00

00:35:53.500 But not many people can get to the levels that we have gotten to.

00:35:57.200 So there are people who would like to do things like us, who are starting out,

00:36:01.180 and we've got a bit of luck as well, all of us, along the way.

00:36:04.500 No matter how good we try to be, there's an element of luck, element of starting at the right time.

00:36:08.940 If you start now, maybe it's a bit too saturated.

00:36:11.520 Maybe someone's working too many jobs to take care of people.

00:36:13.740 They can't do well in podcasting.

00:36:15.240 They're trying, and they just want to offer an alternative view.

00:36:18.320 Every single, and the marketing of that, that's why that's important for those people.

00:36:22.100 For the podcast awards, it's one of the very few ways to get your podcast in front of people.

00:36:26.240 Almost every single nominated podcast is like, Asian girls do this.

00:36:30.620 The Masala podcast.

00:36:32.560 You'd enjoy that.

00:36:33.020 Oh, mate.

00:36:33.980 I'm hungry now. 0.83

00:36:35.500 A gay and a non-gay. 0.99

00:36:36.840 They're all called things like that.

00:36:38.180 And it's just like, even in the title, does anyone care about what's good anymore?

00:36:42.880 I mean, that speaks to your point, doesn't it?

00:36:44.220 My point is, I think, look, there's no argument it's much harder to start now than when we did.

00:36:49.800 But the reality is, ultimately, the beauty of the moment we're in is there are no gay keepers. 1.00

00:36:56.120 So you can make it if you go for it, if you have an original idea.

00:36:59.640 But let's be honest, if you start a podcast called something along the lines of trigonometry now,

00:37:04.640 and you did all the same things that we did then, it wouldn't work because it has to be original to that particular moment.

00:37:11.060 There were not many people in this country doing what we do now.

00:37:13.340 So the timing was important.

00:37:15.100 You know, luck, talent, all of these things come into play.

00:37:17.580 But ultimately, if you create something that answers the need of the moment, then you will make it in the current climate.

00:37:25.200 And that's why I really think it's important for people to hear that message.

00:37:29.980 It's like all these podcasting awards, this is all bollocks. 0.99

00:37:32.920 It might help you in the very short term, but no one wants to hear, you know, two Asian gays or whatever the fuck it's called. 1.00

00:37:39.780 It's really, it's just a dead industry. 0.99

00:37:42.920 And the more people understand that, I think the easier it's going to be.

00:37:46.060 Yeah.

00:37:46.240 I really think that.

00:37:47.320 By the way, one of the things you kind of didn't bring up, you mentioned being Jewish.

00:37:51.640 When you were being told, you know, we need a different person in front of the camera, did you raise the fact that, you know, you were from what is, at least in my opinion, an ethnic minority?

00:38:04.700 I mean, some people would say Jews don't count, but.

00:38:07.380 Yeah.

00:38:07.720 Yeah.

00:38:07.980 Yeah.

00:38:08.200 And I mean, I mean, being Jewish, I've been fine.

00:38:10.440 I've had a fine upbringing.

00:38:11.560 But it's only one generation back.

00:38:13.000 My dad had to change our name from Goldstein to Gold because of anti-Semitism, because of what he had to face and go into like a rough school.

00:38:20.140 I got to go to a posh school because of the sacrifices my parents made.

00:38:23.340 It's only two or three generations ago, the Holocaust. 0.93

00:38:25.440 I know people are tired of hearing about it, but it needs to be reinforced, especially with what happened recently at the colleges.

00:38:32.000 And I did end up mentioning it.

00:38:33.780 But this was two or three years in because I was so ashamed to have to sit in front of a bunch of gatekeepers and say, you know, I've got this victimhood thing.

00:38:43.540 It was always an anathema to me.

00:38:46.040 And I felt, but I had no money.

00:38:48.680 So, you know. 0.99

00:38:49.700 Terrible Jew. 1.00

00:38:50.260 Terrible Jew. 1.00

00:38:51.820 Well, this is the problem. 1.00

00:38:52.960 Yeah. 0.96

00:38:53.080 No one likes a Jew with no money. 1.00

00:38:54.220 You know, it goes against the stereotype. 0.97

00:38:55.220 No one likes a Jew full stop. 1.00

00:38:56.740 But a Jew with no money. 1.00

00:38:58.040 Yeah.

00:38:58.400 Yeah.

00:38:58.780 Extra bad. 0.82

00:38:59.460 So I'm sitting there and I remember having like for the 500th time, well, the 50th time, we can't because you're white. 1.00

00:39:06.500 And I didn't want to say it.

00:39:08.140 I was so ashamed.

00:39:08.800 I was sitting with my director, David, as well, who's not Jewish.

00:39:10.980 But we didn't really talk about this stuff because I'm not a victim.

00:39:13.500 I hate that.

00:39:14.420 You don't want people pitying you.

00:39:15.420 And I just was like, oh, I've got to do something because David's upset by this.

00:39:18.900 I'm upset.

00:39:19.300 We're both struggling and trying to make it happen.

00:39:20.960 So I did say to this guy who was one of the producers or whatever, you know, I'm Jewish.

00:39:25.180 And he just started laughing.

00:39:26.700 And he said, I can't say what I really think about that.

00:39:30.740 And I went, oh, okay.

00:39:32.140 And that was it.

00:39:34.840 It was painful.

00:39:36.380 It was painful.

00:39:36.920 He started laughing.

00:39:37.980 Yeah.

00:39:39.580 Yeah.

00:39:40.160 Why do you think he was laughing?

00:39:41.180 Because he probably subscribes to the view that Jews rule the media and the industry and all of those things. 0.76

00:39:49.060 And that wasn't considered a minority and wasn't worthy of you, which, you know, in a sense, I don't agree with that.

00:39:55.340 But I do agree that by essence of being Jewish, I shouldn't be given a TV program.

00:39:59.580 But if I have to play his game.

00:40:01.520 Yes.

00:40:02.040 You know, so it's his rules.

00:40:03.440 Yes.

00:40:04.000 And I'm playing to his rules.

00:40:05.600 But he's laughing because, and this is the problem.

00:40:08.060 I mean, this is obviously David Baddiel's done, the British comedian's done, this Jews don't count. 1.00

00:40:12.660 Baddiel's argument is a little bit different to mine.

00:40:14.720 He looks at it as there's a whole industry around wokeness and everybody is comparing, you know, where they are in the oppression Olympics and Jews are not included.

00:40:23.800 And that plays into the stereotype that Jews are wealthy and super white. 0.71

00:40:28.520 And I agree with him about that, except I would say, so let's dismantle the whole thing.

00:40:33.720 Correct. Yeah.

00:40:34.060 We had this debate when we had David on the show.

00:40:36.540 And I did say to him, you know, you've identified all the dots, but you refuse to connect them.

00:40:41.280 And that's it.

00:40:42.620 You know, identity politics is bad.

00:40:45.080 And it's especially bad for successful minorities like East Asians in America, like certain types of Africans, like Jews, etc.

00:40:55.780 It's never going to work out.

00:40:57.380 And people need to understand that.

00:40:59.420 And by the way, I so hear what you said about not wanting to be a victim and not wanting your background to be used to your benefit.

00:41:07.700 I remember when I was at school, because I was, English wasn't my first language, they would, by the time I got to sort of GCSE, so that's 16, my teachers would be like, oh, because you're foreign, you're allowed a dictionary to do your exams.

00:41:25.440 And by this point, I spoke English as well, if not better than most of my classmates.

00:41:29.740 So I was like, I don't want it.

00:41:31.280 And they all looked at me like I was the weird one, the teachers.

00:41:34.160 And I was like, it was so obvious to me that you're not supposed to get these benefits if you genuinely don't need them.

00:41:41.560 It's like, I wouldn't want a wheelchair. 1.00

00:41:45.060 Some people would, though.

00:41:46.540 Yeah.

00:41:47.500 And they shouldn't be given one if they're not disabled. 1.00

00:41:52.080 Do you know what I mean?

00:41:52.680 They're given metaphorical wheelchairs all the time.

00:41:54.520 Right.

00:41:54.780 Yeah.

00:41:55.140 I think that's wonderful.

00:41:56.240 That's a wonderful analogy.

00:41:57.160 I like that.

00:41:58.280 It sounds like, you may not catch me if you can, two little mice or whatever, and one drowns in the...

00:42:04.160 What is it, yoghurt or something?

00:42:05.080 Cheese?

00:42:05.420 Yeah.

00:42:06.160 The other one runs so fast, he turns the butter into something solid.

00:42:11.780 I didn't write...

00:42:12.480 Milk into butter.

00:42:13.080 Milk into butter and climbs out.

00:42:15.280 And that's that.

00:42:15.960 Christopher Walken, what a brilliant scene.

00:42:17.840 I love that.

00:42:18.760 And in essence, that's the two...

00:42:20.560 What you've just said is the two sides of the culture wars, isn't it?

00:42:23.400 People who say, come on, pull your socks up.

00:42:25.880 You know, make your bed.

00:42:26.820 We did this.

00:42:27.260 We did our Jordan Peterson competition the other day.

00:42:30.860 And the other side going like, help everyone.

00:42:33.540 And, you know, obviously sometimes you did...

00:42:35.000 Some people need help, you know?

00:42:36.400 Of course.

00:42:36.760 But it just...

00:42:37.660 There are also people who will take advantage of that.

00:42:39.720 There'll be people who didn't need that dictionary who are...

00:42:42.020 Who were born in England, who speak English, who said, well, Constantine's got...

00:42:45.520 Well, if you're offering it, can I have that dictionary as well?

00:42:47.520 Because I can look up the big words.

00:42:49.040 There are people like that.

00:42:50.240 And they get to pass off, you know, under the guise of righteousness.

00:42:53.620 They get to, you know, they get all the help they want.

00:42:57.020 Andrew, when I was doing my research into this interview and I was listening to some

00:43:03.000 of your podcasts, it struck me that actually, as a documentary maker, you were really fearless

00:43:08.180 and you were prepared to tackle some subjects which a vast majority of people simply won't

00:43:13.620 want to go near.

00:43:14.820 And we talked about it...

00:43:16.180 Yes.

00:43:16.460 ...before my interview with you, particularly the subject of paedophilia.

00:43:21.100 And your work on that is striking.

00:43:26.400 So let's talk about that, honestly.

00:43:28.100 What was the work about and what did you discover?

00:43:31.380 Well, thank you, Francis.

00:43:32.880 You know, you don't think of yourself as...

00:43:35.780 You know, I'm scared of everything.

00:43:37.640 But when you're working, you've sort of got a cloak on, don't you?

00:43:40.040 And you pretend you're not.

00:43:41.400 And I guess I was also just so desperate to make it at this point.

00:43:45.340 So I was always like, OK, what's the stuff that maybe Louis Theroux wouldn't touch or whatever?

00:43:49.460 And he has actually done that topic, to be fair.

00:43:52.540 I'd moved from Argentina at this point where I'd been living for some years.

00:43:55.940 That's why I did the exorcist stuff and UFO stuff.

00:43:57.900 I moved to Germany, wanted to learn German.

00:44:00.360 God knows why.

00:44:01.240 It's horrible.

00:44:02.560 But whatever.

00:44:03.740 And while I was there, it's like, OK, what's the thing that I can do that no one else wants

00:44:07.100 to touch?

00:44:07.920 Like, no one else wants to do here?

00:44:09.560 Because that's the only way I'm going to get into the media.

00:44:11.480 So I'm still desperately pushing and trying.

00:44:13.380 And OK, Nazis and neo-Nazis and there's communists there and all these things.

00:44:17.900 OK, I'm looking at those.

00:44:19.380 And then I realized there were adverts on the train there, the metro, for something called

00:44:23.600 kind-hitter-verden, which means don't offend.

00:44:26.040 And I'm immediately intrigued as a journalist.

00:44:27.760 What the hell is this?

00:44:28.720 So I looked it up and it is, they say they were the world's only therapy for non-offending

00:44:35.460 paedophiles who want to get help, who will never report them to authorities.

00:44:40.620 Because an American doctor would have to report them, an Australian one, or they could actually 1.00

00:44:45.720 face prison.

00:44:46.900 A British one I don't think would face prison, but would be struck off. 1.00

00:44:50.380 So they've got these, you know.

00:44:51.880 So I thought, I don't know what I feel about this.

00:44:54.400 And this is going to be scary.

00:44:55.820 And obviously my girlfriend at the time now, nearly my wife in a few months, was like,

00:45:00.720 what are you doing?

00:45:01.320 And I was like, yeah, I'm going to do this.

00:45:03.120 And so I emailed the Don't Offend Clinic people and said, can I get in touch with any of the

00:45:09.660 patients?

00:45:10.500 I want to talk to them and see what's what.

00:45:12.620 And they said, we can't just give you their emails.

00:45:14.880 We don't even know them.

00:45:15.600 That's the whole point.

00:45:16.440 The doctors don't know the real names of these people, so they can't report them.

00:45:19.800 But what they do is they send out in child sexual abuse material, they will download what

00:45:25.600 they think is child sexual abuse material, and it's actually an advert, like, hey, you've

00:45:29.640 got a problem, call this number.

00:45:30.760 Which I think is great, that that's there.

00:45:35.120 And so they go anonymously and whatever.

00:45:37.340 So the clinician said, what I can do is give your email address out.

00:45:41.620 I'm like, oh, God, all these people are going to have my email address.

00:45:44.520 But OK, look, I'm desperate at this point, and I'm fascinated.

00:45:47.220 There's no topic I'm more fascinated.

00:45:48.500 I mean, what a fascinating topic it is.

00:45:50.940 So I waited a few weeks, almost forgot about the whole thing.

00:45:54.180 And then I get an email from someone who calls himself Max, from like a weird email address,

00:45:58.120 bunch of numbers and letters that I can't decipher.

00:45:59.980 And he says, hi, Andrew, I heard about what you're doing.

00:46:04.420 I can only meet today.

00:46:05.500 I'm only in Berlin today.

00:46:07.160 This is where I'm going to be.

00:46:08.500 And that's it.

00:46:09.860 And I was like, oh, God, OK, got to do it.

00:46:11.700 I cancelled going to the lake with my girlfriend.

00:46:13.540 It's like the summer, lovely.

00:46:14.460 I'm really sorry.

00:46:15.100 I've got to go meet at Peter Bell.

00:46:15.940 And she's just like, what? 0.76

00:46:19.040 And I'm like, sorry.

00:46:20.160 And so I go and meet him.

00:46:23.500 But just before going to meet him, I put the address into Google Maps, and it's a public swimming pool.

00:46:28.380 And I'm like, what the hell?

00:46:29.940 What have I got myself into here?

00:46:31.580 So my heart is going mad.

00:46:32.740 I've never met someone like this.

00:46:33.680 And I don't do well in situations where I'm scared.

00:46:35.860 So I really was scared.

00:46:37.260 Cycled down to meet him, get into this public swimming pool, and I find who he is.

00:46:43.860 And he does look like what you'd, you know, it's the stereotype.

00:46:46.320 Chubby guy.

00:46:47.220 He's got speedos.

00:46:48.140 He's got a T-shirt over, covering it almost.

00:46:50.960 And he was with a little girl.

00:46:53.180 And that shocked me.

00:46:54.420 So I said, oh, hi, Max.

00:46:55.860 And he's like, oh, hello.

00:46:57.180 I'm like, right, who's?

00:46:58.520 And she just goes off to play.

00:46:59.580 And I said, who's the little girl?

00:47:01.560 And he said, I'm babysitting her.

00:47:03.480 I go, oh, this is, what have I got myself into?

00:47:06.160 Because, you know, at that point, you're not even like some guy with the BBC, you know?

00:47:09.300 You're just a guy on your own.

00:47:10.300 Like, I'm going to be a reporter, I've decided. 0.86

00:47:12.080 So you're just a guy on your own, now at a public swimming pool with a guy you know is a paedophile who's babysitting children.

00:47:17.820 So I'm now, like, worried for myself.

00:47:19.120 Like, what have I got myself into?

00:47:21.140 And I'm pushing him, going, you can't be babysitting him.

00:47:23.340 What do you mean?

00:47:24.200 And he goes, no, the mum knows about my condition.

00:47:27.460 So that led me to go and meet the mum.

00:47:30.780 Because I just didn't believe him.

00:47:32.440 And the mum is then like, yeah, well, she was, like, super lefty.

00:47:37.240 And I'm not just having a go at left-wing people today. 0.99

00:47:39.940 I mean, there's a fucking surprise, mate. 0.97

00:47:41.840 It is a thing, unfortunately, with the far left. 0.98

00:47:43.980 It's the reason that a lot of people on the right adopt paedophilia as one of their key issues, sort of military and paedophilia.

00:47:52.380 We're going to get those guys.

00:47:54.460 It's because the far left, not necessarily deliberately, but their ideologies lead to that space.

00:48:00.080 If you really push this idea of everyone is oppressed and whatever, it can go there.

00:48:05.580 All behaviour is a product of oppression.

00:48:07.740 That's it.

00:48:08.400 That's exactly right.

00:48:09.780 And, you know, people listening will be going, oh, come on, that's not true.

00:48:13.100 We've got ample evidence of it over the years.

00:48:15.860 That's not to say that there are not just as many of these people, these criminal, horrible people who do things to children, on the right.

00:48:21.220 There are.

00:48:22.320 But there's more permissibility.

00:48:24.460 Is that a word?

00:48:24.840 Yeah.

00:48:25.240 Permissiveness, I think.

00:48:26.100 There's a permissimleness on the left.

00:48:27.240 That's the problem.

00:48:28.020 So we've seen it, firstly, with Kinkora Boys Home in Ireland, where the Green Party in Ireland were involved in allowing the royal Mountbatten, Dickie Mountbatten, to just go and do what he wanted with the children there.

00:48:41.500 And we've seen it in Berlin, where we have something called the Kentler Experiment that took place in the 80s.

00:48:45.760 It was also the Green Party, far left, who noticed there was a problem where they had too many homeless boys and too many paedophile men that they didn't know what to do with.

00:48:54.760 And so they placed the homeless boys with the paedophiles in foster care with paedophiles, because that was a solution to two birds with one stone.

00:49:03.320 This sounds like something I'm making up, but it's all there.

00:49:07.160 New York Times, I think, covered it, or one of the New Yorker covered it.

00:49:11.540 It's all out there, except Berlin. 0.96

00:49:14.160 The local government is still keeping a lot of the papers under lock and key, because a lot of the people involved are still alive who were responsible for this travesty that took place.

00:49:22.760 But those kids who were raised in those homes are so messed up by it that they can hardly speak now.

00:49:28.100 And that is just one example of one of the issues.

00:49:30.140 I know I'm just going on about the left today, but the far left, that is one of the issues that can happen.

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00:49:57.080 We'll be back with Andrew in a minute, but first, do you remember the Canadian trucker protest in 2022, where thousands of Canadians came out to protest COVID restrictions and vaccine mandates?

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00:51:30.220 And now, back to the interview.

00:51:33.180 So you meet this mother.

00:51:34.860 Yeah.

00:51:35.140 Who's a far lefty.

00:51:36.520 Yeah.

00:51:36.800 And what happens from there?

00:51:38.840 She tells me it's all fine.

00:51:40.540 She does this, like, weekly meetup with these guys who are minor attracted persons, as she calls them, who don't offend.

00:51:48.400 Now, whether you trust that or not, you know, I don't know.

00:51:50.920 I'm sure some of them don't offend, and I'm sure some of them do, and some of them watch child sexual abuse material, which to me is just as bad because it encourages it to be made more.

00:52:00.580 Without you watching it, it doesn't happen.

00:52:02.400 It doesn't get made.

00:52:03.660 I speak to her, and I push her and push her.

00:52:05.680 She actually lets three of her kids get babysat by this guy, Max.

00:52:09.000 And I said to her, you know, you might have this experiment and this idealistic idea.

00:52:13.060 And I get the idea, again, it's a nice idea of, like, these guys are afflicted with some sort of conditional illness, and they're trying really hard not to offend, and they don't.

00:52:20.860 Okay, nice idea, and maybe they need to speak.

00:52:23.140 And I think they do need to speak.

00:52:24.740 I think that will stop them offending as much.

00:52:26.420 But that's – you put yourself in danger then.

00:52:29.880 Don't put your kids in danger because that's what's happening.

00:52:34.100 That was pretty much the last I saw of her.

00:52:35.860 She didn't want to speak to me again after that because we had this real not nice conversation.

00:52:41.100 Max continued babysitting her children for some time.

00:52:44.040 I continued talking to various other paedophiles who would meet me.

00:52:49.560 Some of them, I understood what they were saying.

00:52:52.400 You know, they wanted help, and they would never touch a child, they say.

00:52:55.340 And I believe some of them.

00:52:57.180 Some of them said, oh, I did once when I was younger, and then I'm thinking, oh, I don't know what to think.

00:53:01.100 The point is, though, that the clinic, what they're saying, and I think they really do have a point, and I think it's something we need to talk about more.

00:53:07.380 We see this for all kinds of criminality, that when people are made to feel like they're monsters, they are more likely to retreat into the dark web or the dark corners of the web and tell one another that what they're doing is okay.

00:53:20.580 So we need to reach out to them in a way where they can go to therapy and realize how bad it is to abuse children because they tell each other that it's okay.

00:53:31.220 And this clinic disabuses them of that notion.

00:53:33.780 They say a good percentage of these people, there's 1% of the population, of the male population, have this affliction or whatever it is.

00:53:41.800 The clinic believes, it's very hard to find empirical evidence, unfortunately, with this kind of thing.

00:53:45.760 They believe that there are many who are psychopaths, and there's nothing they can do about those people.

00:53:50.900 There are many who will never offend because they just know it's a terrible thing to do.

00:53:54.720 And where the clinic helps is with the people in the middle who could offend if they, for example, got drunk around children, if they're around children too much.

00:54:03.780 Or if they fell in with a crowd, and there are many crowds like this who tell them that it's okay.

00:54:08.460 So for that reason, they need to come out and speak to therapists.

00:54:12.080 And at the moment, outside of Germany, that's not possible.

00:54:15.420 So that's a concern.

00:54:16.920 Because if you're worried about child abuse, and again, there's all different kinds of statistics, but some say that one in three or four kids are abused.

00:54:23.720 Some say one in six or one in nine.

00:54:25.980 But it's a lot.

00:54:26.720 I mean, even one in 100 is too many.

00:54:28.820 So at the moment, on the left, we're saying, don't talk about this because I'm getting triggered. 1.00

00:54:33.280 On the right, we're saying, lock them all up and kill them all. 0.98

00:54:35.980 And that's obviously not something we can actually do. 0.98

00:54:38.700 So I think we need to go, let's calm down and talk about this, and we can actually save children's lives, hopefully.

00:54:44.900 That's the idea.

00:54:45.400 And was a clinic effective, or is this clinic effective, in dealing with this particular issue?

00:54:52.240 They don't know.

00:54:53.060 That's the problem.

00:54:53.800 They are going on faith.

00:54:55.280 Their philosophy is it must help because they're coming in and we are talking to them and making them understand how bad this is.

00:55:02.240 And even if it just helps with one guy and stops them from committing that heinous act on one child, that's a job well done.

00:55:10.040 But they can't really go around going, hang on, was that the guy who committed that thing afterwards?

00:55:14.100 And that's the biggest criticism labelled at the Don't Offend Clinic in Germany.

00:55:18.000 And that's an issue.

00:55:19.260 I agree that's an issue, but I don't know yet what the way around that is.

00:55:22.480 Do you know what you were saying about the mother who was allowing her kids to be babysat?

00:55:28.060 Well, it's something that I talk about a lot, which is how few people in the West, and you're right, it is more one side of the political spectrum than the other.

00:55:37.280 But also I think the right is also very naive about this.

00:55:41.800 Ideology is the most powerful driver of human behaviour that I can think of.

00:55:47.380 And you can get people to do incredibly awful, illogical, irrational, self-harming, harming their own children, which is even worse than self-harming things.

00:55:58.580 Simply because they've been presented with a world view that they've fully bought into.

00:56:05.160 That's shocking to me.

00:56:07.520 Well, I started my channel, and as you guys know, I changed it to a new channel now.

00:56:12.960 But I started it as cults.

00:56:14.880 That was the idea, cults and cult ideologies.

00:56:16.960 The problem was, once I started talking about how some of the sort of lefty, woke stuff is cultish, everyone turned on me and I had to create this new channel.

00:56:24.820 That's what Francis came on, Heretics. 0.99

00:56:26.000 But the first channel is cults.

00:56:27.180 And the links between a Scientology cult and the way Scientologists feel and the way Jonestown and Heaven's Gate were and some of the political ideologies, it's the same thing.

00:56:38.080 And I've got a good friend now who's an ex-Scientologist called Aaron Smith-Levin, and he says all the time, he's such a well-rounded guy.

00:56:43.860 He was born into Scientology, so he didn't drink the Kool-Aid or whatever.

00:56:48.260 He's a good guy.

00:56:49.260 And he says, when I was in it, there is nothing you could have said to me, nothing that would have made me not believe in Scientology.

00:56:55.980 You know, Scientology believes in an interlactic warlord called Zeno, who put 10 billions of people in a volcano and all this mad stuff.

00:57:04.860 So that's how far it goes.

00:57:06.020 And I think once you've dealt with those kinds of stories, to then come back and go like, oh, maybe Nihal hasn't got it exactly right and he wants to imagine that the demographics are different for the BBC than they actually are.

00:57:15.380 That's not a stretch.

00:57:16.580 I mean, if people can believe, I mean, Heaven's Gate, they believed that they were going to go to an alien planet, they all killed themselves.

00:57:23.400 Like, it wasn't Kool-Aid, it was something else.

00:57:25.580 That was Jonestown, actually, it wasn't Kool-Aid, it was something else.

00:57:28.180 I don't know what they drunk exactly, but they all took their own lives.

00:57:31.700 That's how far people can go.

00:57:32.840 So, yeah, the idea that this woman could let her own kids be taken out by a guy she knows is a paedophile babysitter, that's how far ideology is. 1.00

00:57:41.480 That's what people, I want people to take away, exactly what you've just said.

00:57:44.740 Like, if that's how far they can go, imagine just, like, politics, how we might all be a little bit, you know, blinkered.

00:57:50.640 And what was her rationale?

00:57:51.920 Because that's the other thing I'm curious about.

00:57:53.620 Because I might think, for example, that somebody is absolutely an ex-smoker, but I wouldn't let them deliberately babysit packs of cigarettes.

00:58:06.280 Do you know what I mean?

00:58:07.420 What is the rationale behind giving your children to somebody who is hopefully a non-offending?

00:58:15.320 Why did she do this? 1.00

00:58:16.760 Well, I said to her, it's like an alcoholic behind a bar.

00:58:19.200 Right.

00:58:20.340 She says, because it means a lot to her, it's her life's work.

00:58:22.940 So that's the ideological side.

00:58:24.900 It's that very, very dangerous thing of feeling good about yourself.

00:58:27.940 And now she has a huge group of people who no one else will speak to them except her. 0.59

00:58:32.500 So she goes from being, like, Mrs. Boring, because she is, just boring, plain person, she's a boring person, to superhero among those people. 0.98

00:58:41.620 So that's what she does. 0.97

00:58:43.900 And then at that point, it's like cults, right?

00:58:46.160 So one of the first parts of being in a cult is you get love-bombed, right?

00:58:48.940 People start love-bombing you.

00:58:50.240 People are telling her how wonderful she's never heard that before.

00:58:52.880 She's having a, you know, like most of us, who's telling us how wonderful we are, apart from the three of us together?

00:58:57.080 You know, so what an amazing feeling.

00:58:59.700 That's what Scientology does.

00:59:01.280 That's what all of the cults do.

00:59:02.680 And that's what's happened, unfortunately, to her.

00:59:05.120 She's being told, wonderful, wonderful, you're thinking about things in a way that no one else is, how wonderful you are.

00:59:10.140 And so those guys going, hey, you know what I'd really love?

00:59:12.520 Like, no one would ever trust me with their kids, you know, and blah, blah, blah.

00:59:15.700 You believe us that we'd never offend.

00:59:17.560 And by the way, it might be that this guy really doesn't offend and didn't want anything to do with the kids in that way.

00:59:23.180 He's still taking them through a changing way.

00:59:24.700 Why is he babysitting kids, though?

00:59:26.120 Why at a pool?

00:59:27.580 Why a swimming pool?

00:59:28.820 Yeah.

00:59:29.100 Why anyway?

00:59:29.820 Why?

00:59:31.000 It is not a common thing for a man to want to babysit someone else's children.

00:59:37.340 I mean, someone else's children, generally speaking, are quite annoying.

00:59:40.200 Oh, it's the worst thing in the world.

00:59:41.400 Right.

00:59:41.840 They're awful.

00:59:42.160 So the fact that this is a guy that wants to do that and completely unrelated, happens to be a non-offending paedophile, it's a little bit sus. 0.71

00:59:53.420 I'm just, call me a cynic.

00:59:55.320 Like, the way it works, I think, these guys don't, okay, I'm speaking in general about a lot of the non-offenders from what they've told me.

01:00:03.240 And then listeners and viewers can make their own minds up about to what extent they should believe these guys. 0.63

01:00:06.900 They don't just have a sexual attraction to them, which is disgusting and needs to be eradicated as much as it can be.

01:00:14.240 But they also feel like they have some sort of platonic, they love being around children.

01:00:19.380 So I spoke to an 18-year-old who has this, a boy who was a school president at his school, which is, you know, bad.

01:00:29.120 I don't know his real name, I don't know the school, but we spoke just via Skype.

01:00:33.160 I didn't meet him in real life.

01:00:34.720 And he kept saying the same thing.

01:00:36.480 And he said, I'm going to go to these, I do all these clubs and after-school activities where I look after the kids.

01:00:40.660 So everyone thinks he's wonderful and amazing.

01:00:42.400 He looks after the kids like Jimmy Savile did, you know, he's really involved with the kids.

01:00:45.620 But he said to me this really weird thing.

01:00:48.060 And he said, Andrew, you need to understand, if I weren't able to do that, I would be more likely to offend.

01:00:54.660 Because it's so important to me that I can be around kids.

01:00:57.540 And I love it so much that it would screw me up so much not being around them.

01:01:01.720 And I said, but you know that doesn't make sense.

01:01:03.100 Because if you weren't near the kids, you couldn't physically do it.

01:01:06.600 And he was going, no, no, you don't get it.

01:01:08.040 So those are the cognitive biases that you need to disabuse these people of.

01:01:11.660 And this is possible that this guy, Max, who was babysitting the kids.

01:01:14.480 I mean, the other question is, he knew he was meeting me, a journalist.

01:01:17.380 And he wanted to give this, he wanted to show, it's rare that journalists want to meet one of these guys.

01:01:22.640 So he wanted to show, hey, we're all above board.

01:01:24.900 And I spent months after thinking, what was he trying to show?

01:01:28.320 Was he trying to show defiance? 0.98

01:01:30.960 Like, screw you, I would never do anything to a kid just because I have this thing. 0.99

01:01:33.780 Why would you assume that? 0.99

01:01:34.480 Here I am at a swimming pool with the kids.

01:01:36.580 And he took it too far and it had the opposite effect.

01:01:39.280 Maybe that's what he was trying to do.

01:01:41.080 These are generally not well-rounded individuals, unfortunately.

01:01:43.880 These are people that, there's a theory, there's no consensus.

01:01:47.280 People don't know exactly what causes this condition or illness.

01:01:50.640 But there's a theory that people get sort of stuck at a moment in time.

01:01:54.400 That when you look at people like Jimmy Savile, who had a terrible childhood in abject poverty,

01:01:59.840 pneumonia, things like that, that is very possible.

01:02:02.320 Michael Jackson, awful childhood of abuse.

01:02:05.920 It's often cyclical.

01:02:07.960 So that is a theory that people have.

01:02:09.980 You get stuck in that moment and it's, it's your, your development doesn't quite work.

01:02:13.580 And you still feel like a child and you like being around children.

01:02:17.660 So that's all I can, you know, that I'm strong manning why he would do that.

01:02:21.580 But the thing that I found really interesting about you talking to that 18 year old is to me quite telling,

01:02:26.380 because he was saying, unless I'm around kids, then I'm the real victim here.

01:02:33.680 Yeah.

01:02:34.600 And that to me sums up a lot of what we're talking about.

01:02:39.160 It's this desire for victimhood status, whereby if I can't be put in a position where I'm a direct threat to children,

01:02:48.120 then I'm a victim and you go, how insane is that logic and that way of thinking?

01:02:55.880 And that people would agree to that.

01:02:58.840 Yeah.

01:02:59.200 He hoodwinks, you know, himself firstly.

01:03:01.580 I believe he really believes that in himself.

01:03:02.980 And he hoodwinks this woman who now runs a whole therapy class for a bunch of them.

01:03:06.320 And she's not part, you know, what happens with this Berlin clinic, Berlin clinic, don't offend.

01:03:10.500 I think, okay, I think that there's some good here.

01:03:13.080 This is just a woman, like nothing to do with anything, who happens to be quite left wing 1.00

01:03:17.140 and who believes that this is another minority victim who needs help in that respect.

01:03:22.440 And we talk about cults.

01:03:24.340 And before, when I was younger, I used to watch documentaries on cults.

01:03:27.260 I think we all did.

01:03:28.500 And I used to think, you know, a guy with a cult, a cult would be like a guy in robes, 0.96

01:03:33.420 with long hair, talking about some ridiculous thing. 0.98

01:03:36.380 And there'd be about 200 people and there'd be some dodgy sex involved and blah, blah, blah. 0.99

01:03:40.740 And the older I get, the more I look around, whether it's wokeism, whether it's, you know, Islamists. 0.98

01:03:49.040 And I go, this is all a cult.

01:03:50.820 We are surrounded by cults in a way that I didn't understand and my eyes weren't open to before.

01:03:58.440 That is human dynamics, isn't it?

01:04:00.020 And I feel the same as you.

01:04:01.680 And that's why, you know, my old, I say old channel, it's still going.

01:04:04.580 I still go with it.

01:04:05.320 But recently I started talking about, like I say, talking about how this is really similar.

01:04:10.080 But there's an unwritten rule among sort of the people on YouTube who talk about cults,

01:04:13.620 which is that we don't get political.

01:04:15.600 And I've tried to say, like, that doesn't make sense, though, because politics is everywhere,

01:04:19.880 as Ricky Gervais, I think, said once.

01:04:21.500 But it's all part of the same thing.

01:04:23.380 And how can you possibly separate those things?

01:04:25.840 What they really mean, though, a lot of these people who are ex-cults,

01:04:28.940 a lot of them, they were in cults themselves.

01:04:31.300 And there's the zeal of the, what's the expression?

01:04:33.620 I can't remember now, the zeal of the converts or whatever.

01:04:36.320 These people who leave those cults tend to join new cults.

01:04:40.800 And that tends to be, because the cults they were in tend to have things we associate with

01:04:46.160 the rights, which is homophobia.

01:04:48.160 You can't be gay in Scientology. 1.00

01:04:49.760 Tom Cruise would not admit that.

01:04:51.740 It's apparent, there are rumors that's why Tom Cruise and John Travolta don't get on,

01:04:54.860 because John Travolta allegedly might be gay.

01:04:57.680 And that's an issue.

01:04:59.940 That's a huge issue in Scientology. 0.96

01:05:01.220 You cannot be gay in Scientology. 0.99

01:05:02.580 It suggests there is something very wrong with you. 0.99

01:05:05.140 Hasidic Judaism, evangelical Christianity, you can't be gay. 0.99

01:05:09.760 You can't. 0.59

01:05:10.460 Individual liberty is not there.

01:05:11.380 All those kinds of things.

01:05:12.640 So people leave those cults or extreme religions, and they go the other way.

01:05:17.580 And people start saying, oh, fantastic, come to our group.

01:05:19.820 I've got blue hair.

01:05:20.740 And then they've got blue hair.

01:05:22.140 And everyone's got blue hair again.

01:05:23.700 And they're like, oh, God, I hated when I was in those cults, hey?

01:05:26.780 And they're all with the blue hair.

01:05:27.800 They're all having...

01:05:28.360 And they're saying things like, trans women are women.

01:05:32.240 And I always are.

01:05:33.000 I just say, but are you saying are?

01:05:34.900 Are you using the word are?

01:05:36.400 And they're going, yes, they are women. 1.00

01:05:38.080 I'll go, what?

01:05:38.780 No, but that's not a thing.

01:05:39.820 That can't...

01:05:40.580 That has to be a slogan.

01:05:41.920 Don't you recognize this from when you were in the cult?

01:05:43.780 Just because this seems to be the other side of the ideology, can't you see it?

01:05:47.840 They don't see it, because these are people who are prone to joining cults.

01:05:52.020 So I agree with you absolutely, basically, you know.

01:05:55.060 And based on what you've noticed, I'm curious if you have any insight into whether there

01:05:59.880 is a certain type of person who has more of a predilection for joining cults and for

01:06:04.880 believing things of the nature that you've just described.

01:06:07.800 There is.

01:06:08.220 And again, you're not supposed to say it.

01:06:09.580 It's an unwritten law.

01:06:10.640 When you talk about cults, because of the victimhood mentality, that you're supposed to

01:06:14.980 say it can happen to anyone.

01:06:16.820 If you went into a cult, it doesn't say there's anything particular about you that might need

01:06:20.560 to be addressed in therapy, you're a wonderful person, and any of us could have gone...

01:06:24.020 But let's be honest, the three of us probably would never have joined Scientology, right?

01:06:28.140 It just couldn't have...

01:06:28.920 I'd never join a cult.

01:06:30.080 I might lead one.

01:06:32.260 I'll join that cult.

01:06:33.340 I think we're in it.

01:06:34.420 Yeah, you don't want to join my cult, but...

01:06:36.220 It's...

01:06:37.260 No, but it...

01:06:38.560 It's...

01:06:40.180 But you were saying it's not that it could happen to anyone.

01:06:43.180 No.

01:06:43.420 The truth is...

01:06:44.780 The truth is you need to be very vulnerable in this time of life, in a particular time of

01:06:49.120 life.

01:06:49.200 So one person is Steve Hassan.

01:06:50.500 He's known as, like, the godfather of cults, because he came up with something called the

01:06:54.280 bite model, which is how to recognize a cult, okay?

01:06:57.200 And he's an intellect, and he's an academic.

01:06:58.920 But what happened to him is that when he was in his 20s, three women in the library started

01:07:03.160 talking to him, and they were being all sexy and stuff, and they convinced him to join

01:07:08.100 something called the Moonies, which was led by someone called Reverend Moon, who believed

01:07:11.040 he was the second coming of Christ, and who are homophobic, far-right, blah, blah, blah, 0.57

01:07:15.400 blah, blah, and he just upped and joined it.

01:07:16.940 Again, no matter how attractive those three women are, I'd imagine we wouldn't have joined 1.00

01:07:20.460 the Moonies.

01:07:21.200 He's now the expert in it, and it does frustrate me sometimes that a lot of the experts talk

01:07:24.780 to it.

01:07:25.000 He wrote about the cult of Trump now, but he doesn't want to talk about the cult of some

01:07:28.200 of the lefty ideology stuff.

01:07:29.680 So I sort of want to say to him, like, well, hang on, mate, like, I didn't join a cult,

01:07:34.300 and most of the listeners didn't, and most of us didn't.

01:07:36.020 You did.

01:07:36.860 So maybe we should tell you what to do rather than you advise us.

01:07:40.000 So I think what does happen is people who need to feel special.

01:07:42.520 That's what no one wants to say.

01:07:43.660 These are people desperate to feel special, desperate to feel like they were a victim their

01:07:47.460 whole lives, and there is something special about Scientology, something special about

01:07:51.140 the Moonies or whatever.

01:07:52.540 And those people, when they leave the cult, still want to feel special.

01:07:55.740 So it's that needing to feel very special, I think.

01:07:58.620 But isn't that quite a common thing?

01:08:00.360 Like, I would have thought most people want to feel special in some way.

01:08:03.440 Like, everyone's kind of the hero of their own movie.

01:08:07.660 And I think, obviously, we've talked a lot about wokeness on this show in history, historically

01:08:13.620 speaking.

01:08:14.120 And I think it's undoubtedly the case that the worldview, which is based on oppression structures

01:08:21.360 and institutional discrimination and systemic this.

01:08:26.840 It is a worldview that says that the world is against you.

01:08:31.560 And that is a worldview that is predicated on you being special.

01:08:34.880 Otherwise, why would the world be against you?

01:08:36.380 If you're just like everyone else, right, then the world is agnostic about you.

01:08:40.640 The world doesn't care about you.

01:08:42.460 The world is what it is.

01:08:44.420 And it's your job to make the best of that.

01:08:46.600 But if you think the world is uniquely out to get you, that is a worldview that is about

01:08:51.780 being special, isn't it?

01:08:52.780 Yeah, 100%.

01:08:53.520 Well, 100%.

01:08:54.180 Well, that's why it's the same.

01:08:55.840 We all want to feel special, as you say.

01:08:58.220 Some of us realize, like, well, unfortunately, we are.

01:09:01.900 No, unfortunately, we can't have a society where every one of the 8 billion of us gets

01:09:08.220 special treatment.

01:09:09.280 And so let's try and subdue that need to feel special.

01:09:12.920 Other people go, well, hang on, what's this Scientology thing?

01:09:15.340 I get to, so Alex Barnes-Ross is someone I know, I'm friendly with him now, an English

01:09:19.240 Scientologist.

01:09:20.020 We don't get so many of them, but L. Ron Hubbard, the creator of Scientology, did spend

01:09:23.740 a lot of time in England.

01:09:25.400 And there is some, there are Scientologists here.

01:09:28.420 And he said it was really attractive to him, apart from the love bombing and feeling special,

01:09:32.160 because he didn't feel special at school or anything like that, was that he was able

01:09:35.280 to go and cure the reactive mind.

01:09:37.680 He was going to be able to go and evangelize and make other people realize that Scientology is

01:09:43.160 the true way and that they are, basically, they're the bad guys and he's the good guy.

01:09:46.980 I mean, what does that sound like?

01:09:49.140 Do you know what it sounds like?

01:09:50.540 Because to me, it sounds that people who are higher than average on narcissism are prone

01:09:56.440 to either forming cults or joining a cult.

01:09:59.560 I think so, yeah.

01:10:00.380 Which you can understand whilst looking at it, because if you think about a conspiracy

01:10:06.540 theorist, somebody who's really into conspiracy theories and eulogizes about them, what are

01:10:11.360 they effectively saying?

01:10:13.080 You don't understand the world the way that I do, and I have a very special insight, which

01:10:18.160 no one else does.

01:10:19.200 I mean, that is highly narcissistic.

01:10:21.280 Yeah, I think so.

01:10:22.360 I think so.

01:10:23.020 And you know what happens is, I mean, at the moment, the Scientologist, there's a big

01:10:26.260 ex-Scientology community.

01:10:27.260 I'm in with all these, I didn't think that would happen, and that's a thing now, I'm

01:10:30.000 in with the ex-Scientologists.

01:10:31.380 And some of them are really lovely guys I get on with really well.

01:10:33.820 But they've had what was inevitable, a huge civil war between the ex-Scientologists, who

01:10:38.860 have slightly different beliefs about how ex-Scientology should be.

01:10:42.800 It's just human beings, isn't it?

01:10:44.280 It is.

01:10:44.680 It's hilarious.

01:10:45.840 Andrew, listen, it's been such a pleasure chatting.

01:10:47.720 Before we head on over and get some of our audience questions for you, you mentioned

01:10:52.720 starting a new channel, which I'm just curious about, because

01:10:56.260 it's quite a hard thing to do, to change channels.

01:11:00.040 Why did you do it, and how have you found that?

01:11:03.680 I was a victim, a victim, a victim of life.

01:11:07.860 The system came to get you.

01:11:09.420 The system got me.

01:11:10.160 I was a victim of audience capture, which basically means I was, I wanted loads of money.

01:11:15.020 And so when I started my channel, I got very excited.

01:11:18.360 Okay, we'll talk about Scientology, then this, then that.

01:11:20.320 And I started realizing, okay, but if I've got Tom Cruise in the thumbnail, it does really

01:11:24.040 well.

01:11:24.220 Okay, let's do another one about Tom Cruise, and now John Travolta, and now Meghan Markle.

01:11:28.340 And then suddenly it went from what I wanted the channel to be, to, and it's my own fault,

01:11:32.560 of course, to celebrity stuff, a lot of it.

01:11:35.280 And then when I put out the stuff I really cared about, which is very similar to what

01:11:38.200 you guys do, not only do people not watch it, but they got angrier and angrier, because

01:11:42.340 these were people who were there for the cult stuff, and they didn't believe that the

01:11:46.040 woke stuff was a cult stuff, was a cult thing.

01:11:48.260 And recently with the Israel stuff, that just died a death.

01:11:52.260 So I can still do a live stream and say, look at what's happened to Prince Harry and Meghan,

01:11:55.640 and it will get hundreds of thousands of views just talking to the camera.

01:11:59.320 But that's not fulfilling me in my life.

01:12:01.440 And I got to interview, because of that channel, it gave me some prominence which allowed me

01:12:06.380 to interview top guests like Francis Foster, and Graham Linehan, and Winston Marshall,

01:12:11.940 and Helen Joyce, and all these kinds of people, Richard Dawkins.

01:12:14.880 Fantastic.

01:12:16.180 I'm so happy.

01:12:17.100 And what's the new channel called?

01:12:18.060 It's called Heretics.

01:12:19.020 And yeah, that's it.

01:12:20.360 And I hope people come in.

01:12:22.560 Absolutely.

01:12:23.080 Well, we'll make sure to link to it.

01:12:24.280 It's been really great to chat with you.

01:12:25.780 Let's keep in touch and do this again sometime.

01:12:27.700 Thank you.

01:12:28.460 Before we go to questions from our supporters, as you know, the last question we always ask

01:12:33.360 is what's the one thing that we're not talking about that we shouldn't be?

01:12:35.740 I was thinking about this, and I thought lookism is an interesting one, and I think that's

01:12:40.340 going to maybe be the next thing that happens, because I was reading, Ted Chiang is one of

01:12:44.540 my favorite authors.

01:12:45.500 He's like a scientist author, and he made this short story about a school where they use like

01:12:51.900 magnets or whatever to turn off the receptor in your brain that can recognize attraction

01:12:55.620 in people.

01:12:57.020 So these people grew up not knowing if they were attractive or their friends were attractive.

01:13:00.860 There are also very real experiments going on at the moment about mind reading and being

01:13:05.720 able to tell someone's attributes and things.

01:13:07.760 You don't have to give a CV anymore.

01:13:09.060 You will be able to just read their minds and know if they're going to be good at certain

01:13:11.660 things.

01:13:12.440 And I think that a lot of what we've spoken about with regards to obsession and control

01:13:16.720 among authoritarian people, I think that could be, that's one of the potentials for

01:13:21.660 a future clash where some people are saying you've got to turn off your attraction bias

01:13:26.320 in certain places and schools and things, and all these kinds of things.

01:13:30.700 So that's something that I think we need to look out for.

01:13:33.340 That's insane.

01:13:35.000 That's insane.

01:13:36.020 Anyway, if you want to hear more insane stuff, head on over to Locals or elsewhere where you

01:13:40.880 support us to get Andrew's answers to your questions.

01:13:43.840 What was your most disturbing interview or guest?

TRIGGERnometry - December 15, 2023

Why I Left The Mainstream Media - Andrew Gold

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