TRIGGERnometry - Why I'm Voting Against Labour

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00:00:30.660 What you're talking about is the destruction of British society, really.

00:00:36.060 Civil society, yes. Voting is not a sacrament. It's not even a civic duty.

00:00:40.920 And it's certainly not an emotional spasm. It's a practical act with a measurable effect.

00:00:45.760 Work out what it is you don't want, most of all, and vote against it.

00:00:50.280 And I said the thing you really don't want, most of all, is the second half of the Blair Revolution.

00:00:55.700 I think that he's a man of the pretty strong, hard left, probably wealth of left of Jeremy Corbyn.

00:01:04.500 And why have the right-wing newspapers and media not exposed this?

00:01:07.580 Because they don't understand it.

00:01:08.920 But if you are an ex-Trotskyist, you do know, because you can read the signs and you understand the code.

00:01:13.000 It's all there.

00:01:13.580 Peter Hitchens, welcome back to Trigonometry.

00:01:17.820 Now, Peter, I have to say you have outdone yourself because what I think about you, I think of you as a contrarian.

00:01:23.720 You've got to the point where you're so contrarian, you're actually disagreeing with yourself.

00:01:27.400 Because you're famous for telling people, A, to not vote Conservative, and B, to leave the country if they still can.

00:01:34.420 And here you are, in this country, telling people to vote for the Conservatives.

00:01:37.800 No, I'm not saying anybody to vote for the Conservatives.

00:01:39.780 I'm telling them to vote against Labour.

00:01:42.620 No, no, no, it's a completely different thing.

00:01:44.900 People have to learn to vote against.

00:01:46.580 What I've strove against for 20 long years was the determination of Conservative, patriotic people in this country to continue to vote for a party that hated them.

00:01:58.060 Now I have to strive against the determination of Conservative, patriotic people in this country to vote for a party which hates them even more, and not to be able to see the difference between bad and worse.

00:02:09.780 My position remains the same.

00:02:11.300 I loathe the Conservative Party, and I always offer to do this.

00:02:16.040 If you'd care to join me in a chorus of, if you hate the Tory party, clap your hands, a song I learned in Glasgow in 1972, I'm happy to join you.

00:02:23.100 I still hate the Tory party.

00:02:24.960 I still think the wisest course for anyone who could start a new life in a new country is to leave this country, but the many who cannot leave, and therefore I have to act where I can to try and avert catastrophe.

00:02:36.120 A Labour government in this country would make the past 14 years of Tory government seem quite civilised and intelligent, and therefore it has to be avoided at all costs.

00:02:45.860 Yet I'm surrounded by people who, either by actually voting Labour or voting for Reform UK, are determined to install a Labour government, and I have to argue against it.

00:02:57.640 I will not wake up on July 5th thinking there was anything I could not have done, anything I could have done that I didn't do to prevent that from happening, because it would be so catastrophic.

00:03:13.180 So?

00:03:14.060 Everything I've said remains absolutely the same.

00:03:15.920 I have to shift it from any of it.

00:03:17.140 By the way, I have to tell you that I regard the same contrarian as an insult.

00:03:21.080 Well, you do.

00:03:21.480 It absolutely assumes that I take positions for effect.

00:03:26.300 All my positions are taken on principle and after considerable thought.

00:03:30.200 Well, I certainly didn't...

00:03:30.980 It's not taken for effect.

00:03:31.840 The problem is that in a largely irrational, uneducated society, rational and educated positions annoy people.

00:03:38.400 I certainly didn't mean that I was annoyed by your position.

00:03:39.960 I know you don't mean it to be, but as I think Cardinal Newman said, no gentleman ever unintentionally insults anybody.

00:03:47.060 Are we going to recover from this?

00:03:48.280 Either way, I'm just telling you, don't bleeping well call me a contrarian and expect me to like it.

00:03:53.100 I hear you.

00:03:53.740 Thank you.

00:03:53.940 So, in terms of the Conservative Party, I mean, you say you're not telling people to vote for it, but in effect, you are.

00:04:01.080 No, I couldn't.

00:04:01.620 I couldn't conceivably tell anyone to vote for it.

00:04:03.480 The crucial...

00:04:04.700 But how do you vote against Labour?

00:04:05.880 The crucial step people have to...

00:04:06.980 Well, generally, in many cases, that would involve voting Conservative, not invariably.

00:04:11.560 In my own seat, it's pointless, for instance.

00:04:13.480 I shan't vote because the Labour Party has a majority of nearly 20,000 and it's unassailable.

00:04:17.540 And why should I vote Conservative in the face of that?

00:04:20.020 Pointless.

00:04:20.620 So, I won't.

00:04:21.520 And it was only you won't vote.

00:04:22.620 Well, I'm only saying voting.

00:04:24.940 I'm trying to extract voting from the strange, sanctified urn in which people keep it.

00:04:31.160 Voting is not a sacrament.

00:04:32.960 It's not even a civic duty.

00:04:34.320 And it's certainly not an emotional spasm.

00:04:35.980 It's a practical act with a measurable effect.

00:04:39.520 And in modern Britain, the intelligent and reasoned person knows, because he ceased long

00:04:44.260 ago to believe in Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy, that voting for things is a waste

00:04:48.820 of time.

00:04:49.260 You won't get what you vote for.

00:04:51.200 But there are definitely occasions when you can effectively vote against things.

00:04:54.860 And this is an occasion where you can effectively vote against the Labour Party and against Keir Starmer

00:04:59.720 and prevent them from coming to office.

00:05:01.560 It's still possible.

00:05:02.640 The opinion polls don't dictate the results of the election.

00:05:06.100 You don't have to be told what to do by propaganda.

00:05:08.880 You can actually use your own mind and your own will to vote.

00:05:11.460 Oh, well, the opinion polls say that Labour have won.

00:05:14.820 Therefore, I won't vote against them.

00:05:17.320 It's such a moronic position, isn't it?

00:05:19.240 Peter, the only point I'm making...

00:05:20.820 But I have to make people think.

00:05:23.020 And this is one of the most difficult things in modern Britain, because people have been

00:05:27.320 educated not to think.

00:05:30.020 So I start by saying, if you want to vote, learn to vote against.

00:05:33.760 Work out what it is you don't want, most of all, and vote against it.

00:05:37.820 And I said, the thing you really don't want, most of all, is the second half of the Blair

00:05:43.240 Revolution, which is what you're going to get if you get a Labour government.

00:05:47.140 Is this you coming out as a Liberal Democrat then, Peter?

00:05:51.140 You still don't get it, do you?

00:05:53.160 I'm not for anybody.

00:05:55.280 I'm against Labour.

00:05:56.560 I'm saying there are a few years left to us in this country where life might remain relatively

00:06:01.600 civilised and where the downward careering of the country down the slope of Avernus is

00:06:07.100 not complete.

00:06:09.180 And those years would be taken from us if we had a Labour government now.

00:06:12.960 So I kind of...

00:06:15.540 I have a personal stake in this.

00:06:16.580 I'm still alive, to my own amazement.

00:06:18.540 Here I am.

00:06:19.840 I don't want to spend the declining years of my old age under a government headed by someone

00:06:25.960 like Keir Starmer, Keir Rodney Starmer.

00:06:29.460 We should learn to...

00:06:30.320 So what is it that you object to about this Labour government?

00:06:34.780 Why is it that you're so fearful of it?

00:06:37.760 What is the havoc that they are going to reach?

00:06:39.720 It's partly a huge sense of regret that I was so powerless in 1997.

00:06:43.660 I had a column in the Daily Express, it's true, but I had no...

00:06:46.580 Anti-social media had barely developed and there was no...

00:06:49.260 I had no other platform, almost very little access to broadcasting.

00:06:53.360 And I simply didn't have the reach which I think I now possess.

00:06:56.300 And I've always regretted that because I knew, not in detail, because I didn't fully understand

00:07:01.960 it, but from friends of mine who were in the new Labour project and from my own deductions,

00:07:06.660 that a Blair government would be deeply and irreversibly damaging to the country in many

00:07:12.300 ways.

00:07:13.160 And I couldn't do anything to stop it.

00:07:14.560 And again, we had the same miasma of moronic self-indulgence.

00:07:18.240 Oh, well, the Tories deserve a period in opposition.

00:07:21.180 The Tories deserve to be punished.

00:07:22.940 John Major's awful.

00:07:23.740 Well, that's only...

00:07:24.860 He looks all right.

00:07:26.240 We don't know what he's going to do, but he says he's in favour of education and things

00:07:31.000 like that.

00:07:31.820 He says he's in favour of being tough on crime.

00:07:34.940 So let's give him a go.

00:07:36.160 And they gave him a go.

00:07:37.740 And he smashed up the United Kingdom.

00:07:39.460 He wrecked the Constitution.

00:07:40.840 He raped the economy.

00:07:42.580 He destroyed huge numbers of personal pension, for instance.

00:07:47.220 And he unleashed a wave of social, moral and cultural revolution, which still sweeps through

00:07:51.680 the country with very damaging effects.

00:07:53.200 And all of that was avoidable if people only said, well, yes, OK, John Major isn't that

00:07:56.940 good, is he?

00:07:57.460 But good heavens, it has to be better having him there than having this, a government basically

00:08:02.680 run by Alistair Campbell, which is what we got.

00:08:05.100 So now we have this exactly the same dilemma again.

00:08:07.860 The Labour Party in the intervening period has been a fairly poor, lifeless thing without

00:08:13.540 any serious leadership or purpose.

00:08:15.300 But under Keir Starmer, it now has a serious leadership or purpose, and that purpose is

00:08:19.820 the completion of the Blair Revolution and also constitutional change to make that completion

00:08:24.460 irreversible.

00:08:25.740 So I think people should realise that, oh, well, in five years' time, all right, it doesn't

00:08:29.680 matter if we get a Labour government.

00:08:31.860 As long as the Tories are smashed, that'll be fine.

00:08:34.240 In 2029, we'll be able to get the Labour out and go back to normal.

00:08:37.860 You won't.

00:08:38.960 Once these guys move in, they're not going.

00:08:41.660 So what do you mean by this Blair Revolution?

00:08:46.100 Let's actually dig down.

00:08:47.380 Let's look at the components.

00:08:49.480 What does that actually mean?

00:08:50.700 What is it that they want to achieve?

00:08:52.600 How are they going to achieve it?

00:08:54.040 Well, you see, the huge pillars of it, which people were largely unaware of in 1997 and which

00:08:59.860 in many cases only came into real force in the second Blair term, were the Equality Act,

00:09:08.920 which has fundamentally altered the whole moral and social nature of the country and changed

00:09:13.520 the way in which people think and speak.

00:09:17.680 Peter, can you flesh that out a little bit?

00:09:19.140 The enormous redistribution of the...

00:09:21.040 Peter, just flesh that point out a little bit.

00:09:22.820 Okay.

00:09:23.180 I agree with you, but it would be interesting for viewers and listeners to get a little bit

00:09:27.580 more detail on why it changed the way people think and speak.

00:09:31.200 Here's one very simple way that this country had been, you might say, officially Christian

00:09:37.360 since before the Norman Conquest.

00:09:40.960 The Equality Act, by making Christianity one among many religions, removed the primacy of

00:09:46.080 Christianity from public life and from law in a way which continues to have profound effects

00:09:52.120 on the way in which people live the contracts which they make between themselves, personal life.

00:09:56.600 And the sexual revolution, which accompanied the Blair government, has been enormous.

00:10:00.140 Whether you like it or not, no one can deny that that has changed.

00:10:04.620 So has the general predisposition towards equality of outcome in the whole social and welfare system,

00:10:15.080 which again formed part of Gordon Brown's enormous splurge in the second term,

00:10:20.600 which was a huge tranche of redistribution.

00:10:24.560 And those things are just the obvious and in some ways superficial aspects of what then turns

00:10:32.780 into a complete social, economic, and political revolution.

00:10:38.140 You must also bear in mind that people have forgotten this now because it's now so far in the past

00:10:42.580 and appears irreversible.

00:10:44.720 When Labour came into office in 1997, this was the United Kingdom.

00:10:48.540 There were no parliaments in Edinburgh or Califf.

00:10:51.580 And that's now happened.

00:10:52.980 And what's also happened is that there's been a breakup of the English part of the United Kingdom

00:10:58.400 with the formation of these mayors, which are almost mini-republics.

00:11:01.920 I mean, London is actually now the only republic in the United Kingdom.

00:11:05.700 It has an elected head of state, which is an interesting piece of testbed politics.

00:11:12.660 But it's also pretty much, it was designed to be a left-wing policy and it will always be one.

00:11:18.180 And then you look at the constitutional changes which Gordon Brown put forward in 2022

00:11:22.740 in the Leeds announcement with Keir Starmer at his side,

00:11:27.400 with a new chamber of the regions and the nations, which will make this permanent.

00:11:31.620 And the other thing, of course, which lies alongside and beneath this,

00:11:37.140 and this is partly because New Labour was a project conceived mainly by lawyers,

00:11:41.340 was the creation of the Supreme Court.

00:11:43.840 It was constitutional nonsense in a country with parliamentary supremacy,

00:11:49.000 where they created it and it continues to accrue power to itself.

00:11:51.760 And one of the main effects of the constitutional changes which were put forward in 2022

00:11:56.240 would be more powers for the Supreme Court,

00:11:59.080 more powers taken away from Parliament and particularly from the House of Commons

00:12:03.360 so that it simply ceases to be sovereign.

00:12:05.640 David Stark is very good on this if you want to ask him about it,

00:12:07.820 but it is an extraordinary, astonishing document which very few people have read

00:12:12.740 and it lies there waiting to be implemented.

00:12:14.520 I think probably given the way it's referred to in the Labour Manifesto,

00:12:18.020 which is, as I've said, a bikini in that it covers what it reveals is much less interesting than what it conceals.

00:12:31.020 But the reference to constitution in the Labour Manifesto, which I have actually read,

00:12:36.700 suggests that unless they get very lucky with a huge majority,

00:12:40.500 they'll probably wait until the second term to implement the Chamber of the Regents

00:12:44.460 and all the other changes which are in it.

00:12:46.060 But it's well worth reading in the interim because it's extremely cleverly drawn.

00:12:50.600 These people are not fools.

00:12:52.140 They understand very well how the British constitution works

00:12:54.960 and they understand that if they arrange it in the way that they wish to do so,

00:12:57.980 then any future government will be unable to undo what they've done.

00:13:02.060 This has been a preoccupation in Labour since the 1930s.

00:13:04.860 I think John Strachey was the first person to raise it.

00:13:07.420 Nye Bevan again raised it in 1945.

00:13:09.220 Labour have always felt that it was unfair that a Conservative government could come into office

00:13:14.340 and undo what they'd done.

00:13:15.760 They wanted to have some kind of ratchet by which it was agreed

00:13:18.560 that their key reforms would be irreversible.

00:13:21.420 And now, with this constitutional plan, they've got it.

00:13:25.560 And so what do you think, if Starmer wins,

00:13:30.160 what do you think are the first things that he is going to try and do when he gets in?

00:13:34.920 What do you think is going to be the main targets?

00:13:37.020 So here's the thing we cannot know.

00:13:39.120 In 1997, nobody knew, for instance,

00:13:41.240 that Gordon Brown would abolish the government control over the Bank of England

00:13:45.640 and make it independent.

00:13:46.640 It was an amazing, and in my view, extremely bad development.

00:13:50.400 Nobody knew that he was going to make this tremendous raid upon private pension funds.

00:13:54.700 And nobody knew that there was going to be the constitutional putsch

00:13:57.640 which placed Alistair Campbell and Jonathan Powell in charge of civil servants,

00:14:01.960 although they were not in any way responsible to any Chamber of Parliament.

00:14:05.740 It was an astonishing development, which was considered outrageous at the time.

00:14:09.920 None of these things were in the manifesto.

00:14:12.180 None of them had even been rumoured before,

00:14:13.760 though in fact Alex Brummer had discovered about the pension plan

00:14:17.260 when he was working for the Guardian in the period before the election.

00:14:21.580 And the Guardian disgracefully cooperated with Gordon Brown suppressing the news.

00:14:25.000 So we don't know what Starmer is suppressing about his major plans.

00:14:30.540 But all the major things which Labour did in the aftermath of its victory in 1997

00:14:34.060 were things it hadn't told anybody about.

00:14:36.420 And what makes you...

00:14:37.340 So I don't know what they might do, but I don't think any of them will be nice.

00:14:41.020 Interesting.

00:14:41.400 And what makes you suspect of Keir Starmer personally?

00:14:45.180 Starmer himself is a man of very interesting background.

00:14:47.960 I think his struggles over...

00:14:49.640 Well, I find actually the rather dull Soviet for transgender issue are interesting.

00:14:54.200 The reason why he struggles over it is because he is, by inclination and politics for a long time,

00:14:59.420 a person of the very, very far left.

00:15:01.600 He was mixed up with a tendency called Pabloism in his 20s,

00:15:05.900 which is an outward branch for Trotskyism,

00:15:09.060 named after a man whose nom de guerre was Pablo,

00:15:12.240 who's really a Greek revolutionary called Michaelis Rapsis,

00:15:15.580 who decided that the old form of revolutionary socialism was clapped out,

00:15:19.660 in which he was absolutely right,

00:15:20.760 and the seizure of the post office in the barracks by the waking class,

00:15:23.980 that that wasn't going to happen.

00:15:25.560 But the revolutionaries should concentrate on two things,

00:15:27.640 the red and the green,

00:15:28.720 and the red being the cultural, moral, and revolution,

00:15:31.700 sort of Gramscian takeover of society in every corner,

00:15:35.600 and the green bit, of course,

00:15:36.740 the fanatical and zealous pursuit of net zero and similar targets.

00:15:42.940 And the red bit is, of course, sexual politics, amongst other things.

00:15:47.080 And Starmer, I think, recognizes and has had difficulty over this

00:15:50.940 because he really believes this stuff.

00:15:54.660 Do you?

00:15:55.020 I think he...

00:15:56.320 People, when Starmer in that first debate said,

00:15:59.820 he was asked whether if a relative was suffering on the NHS waiting list,

00:16:03.000 would he go private?

00:16:04.120 He said no.

00:16:05.180 People thought he was making it up or pretending.

00:16:07.820 I absolutely believe him.

00:16:10.040 He's an extremely dogmatic person.

00:16:12.720 The other very interesting thing was when he was finally asked a political question interview

00:16:17.300 a week or so ago,

00:16:19.900 and Nick Ferrari asked him,

00:16:21.260 when he kept on referring to working people,

00:16:24.020 and they wouldn't face any more taxes,

00:16:26.320 who did he mean by working people?

00:16:28.680 And he said, in effect,

00:16:30.240 I won't try and quote exactly,

00:16:31.440 but the effect of what he said was

00:16:32.620 that people he does not regard as working people

00:16:35.100 are people with savings.

00:16:37.120 Now, there are many, many people in this country

00:16:38.480 who are not particularly well off

00:16:39.380 who do have savings

00:16:40.240 and who have managed to accumulate assets.

00:16:41.920 They will all, I think,

00:16:44.320 face very strong egalitarian taxation

00:16:47.640 in one form or another under this government.

00:16:50.460 There are other things about Stanislav Havel

00:16:51.540 which are fascinating.

00:16:52.920 The Daily Mail the other day revealed

00:16:54.980 that he'd been on a trip,

00:16:56.800 a work camp trip to Czechoslovakia,

00:16:59.380 deep in the deep frozen years of communism in 1986.

00:17:03.040 This was in the period when people like Václav Havel

00:17:04.940 were being thrown into jail

00:17:06.260 when Charter 77 supporters

00:17:09.320 were trying very hard

00:17:10.500 to draw attention

00:17:12.180 to the complete lack of freedom of speech

00:17:13.740 when anybody who opposed

00:17:15.640 the communist regime in Czechoslovakia

00:17:18.120 was either put into prison

00:17:19.140 or driven from his profession

00:17:20.280 and made to work in menial tasks.

00:17:22.360 It was a miserable Cold War time

00:17:24.840 and yet he went on this work camp.

00:17:29.000 He was also, when he was a lawyer,

00:17:31.140 a young lawyer in the 1980s,

00:17:34.140 secretary of a body

00:17:35.060 called the Haldane Society of Socialist Lawyers.

00:17:37.320 Now, there are lots of things

00:17:38.080 I could say about that

00:17:39.020 but I won't say any more than this.

00:17:41.600 The Haldane Society was the result

00:17:43.080 of a split among left-wing lawyers

00:17:44.720 in London in the 1940s,

00:17:46.740 a split largely between sympathizers

00:17:48.760 of the Soviet Union

00:17:49.640 and non-sympathizers of the Soviet Union

00:17:51.340 in which the Haldane Society

00:17:53.080 was the society of choice

00:17:54.800 for those who were more inclined

00:17:56.920 towards sympathy for the Soviet Union

00:17:58.460 and the Society of Labour Lawyers

00:17:59.860 was the society of Labour lawyers,

00:18:02.840 of normal Labour Party members

00:18:04.180 who were also lawyers.

00:18:04.880 No one who was a left-wing lawyer

00:18:07.860 in London in the 1980s

00:18:08.960 could not have known

00:18:09.640 about this distinction.

00:18:10.980 I have particular reasons

00:18:12.100 for knowing about it

00:18:12.780 but no one,

00:18:14.120 Sir Keir Starmer could not have known,

00:18:16.580 could not have been unaware

00:18:17.600 that there was this distinction

00:18:19.080 and yet he was secretary

00:18:19.920 of the Haldane Society

00:18:20.780 rather than a member

00:18:21.540 of the Society for Labour Lawyers.

00:18:23.360 You have to ask why.

00:18:24.320 I think that he's a man

00:18:26.120 of the pretty strong, hard left,

00:18:32.300 probably wealthy left

00:18:33.220 of Jeremy Corbyn

00:18:34.440 in a modern and partly Gramscian way

00:18:39.680 which is incomprehensible

00:18:41.080 to most people

00:18:41.620 who write about politics

00:18:42.320 in this country

00:18:42.800 because most people

00:18:44.240 who write about politics

00:18:44.940 in this country

00:18:45.420 are politically illiterate,

00:18:46.660 particularly about the left

00:18:47.560 and don't understand its language.

00:18:49.240 Well, perhaps I'm certain

00:18:50.980 that we are two of them

00:18:51.800 so explain it to us

00:18:53.200 because the public perception

00:18:55.520 is that Keir Starmer

00:18:56.960 is this centrist figure

00:18:58.260 who's taken on the extremes

00:19:00.360 of his own party,

00:19:01.840 who's got rid of Jeremy Corbyn,

00:19:03.740 he's got rid of Diane Abbott,

00:19:05.400 he's got rid of all this

00:19:06.580 far left progressive fringe

00:19:07.900 and he's this centre-left,

00:19:10.060 moderate, centrist dad.

00:19:12.200 Why is that wrong?

00:19:13.460 Well, because there is an old,

00:19:17.160 almost sentimentally lovable

00:19:19.600 old left, steam-powered old Trotskyist

00:19:24.540 like Jeremy Corbyn

00:19:25.640 and an open, rather noisy,

00:19:29.140 very sincere leftists

00:19:30.640 like Diane Abbott,

00:19:32.060 people of that kind

00:19:32.820 who are no threat to anybody

00:19:34.580 because you can see them

00:19:35.500 coming about 30 miles off.

00:19:37.600 And there is the subtle, smooth left

00:19:40.100 which became Blairism,

00:19:42.260 the left of Euro-communism,

00:19:43.680 the crucial year in all this being 1968

00:19:45.820 when two things happened.

00:19:47.680 One, the Soviet Union and its allies

00:19:49.300 invaded Czechoslovakia

00:19:50.500 and horrified almost everybody

00:19:53.540 on the serious left

00:19:54.560 who had up till then

00:19:55.940 had any sympathy with the Soviet Union

00:19:57.440 and broke probably forever

00:19:58.760 that connection.

00:19:59.800 So there was particularly

00:20:00.720 in the Italian Communist Party

00:20:03.480 a movement towards

00:20:04.800 some form of serious leftism

00:20:08.260 which was no longer Soviet,

00:20:09.520 no longer believed

00:20:10.260 in the complete takeover

00:20:11.940 of industry and the economy

00:20:14.440 by the state

00:20:15.140 which looked back

00:20:16.300 to Antonio Gramsci

00:20:17.360 who was in Italian Communist

00:20:18.680 who'd seen in the 20s

00:20:19.660 that Soviet socialism

00:20:21.600 wouldn't work.

00:20:23.020 And at the same time

00:20:23.680 you had this 1968 events in Paris

00:20:25.780 which were largely about sex.

00:20:28.660 They began with a quarrel

00:20:30.160 about male access

00:20:31.240 to female dormitories

00:20:32.240 at the Monterey branch

00:20:34.420 of the University of Paris

00:20:35.240 and that's what they were about,

00:20:37.360 sex, drugs, and rock and roll.

00:20:38.840 And if you go and look

00:20:39.580 at all the museums

00:20:41.480 and all those posters

00:20:42.400 that were stuck up at the time

00:20:43.380 it's quite clear

00:20:44.080 that's what it was about.

00:20:45.240 Those two channels of thought

00:20:47.300 came together

00:20:48.360 into a current

00:20:51.140 called Euro communism

00:20:52.040 which took over

00:20:54.560 the theoretical journal

00:20:55.800 of the British Communist Party

00:20:57.320 Marxism today

00:20:59.020 which became actually

00:21:01.100 the theoretical journal

00:21:02.040 of New Labour.

00:21:03.080 And if you look

00:21:03.640 at New Labour's front ranks

00:21:05.620 and this is only because

00:21:07.620 you're limited in knowing

00:21:10.420 anything about this

00:21:10.920 because all you know

00:21:12.020 is what's come out

00:21:13.000 much more may well exist

00:21:15.800 which doesn't come out.

00:21:16.740 An extraordinary number

00:21:18.040 of Blair's cabinet colleagues

00:21:19.740 had been Marxists

00:21:21.640 of one kind or another

00:21:22.460 during the 1960s

00:21:23.480 and 1970s.

00:21:25.180 Blair himself,

00:21:26.220 and this was concealed

00:21:27.060 during his entire time

00:21:28.380 as leader of the Labour Party,

00:21:29.260 Blair himself

00:21:29.740 was at Trotsky University.

00:21:32.380 And people don't necessarily

00:21:33.920 stop being revolutionists

00:21:35.860 because they stop

00:21:36.580 running around

00:21:37.200 and going on demonstrations

00:21:38.100 or believing the waking class

00:21:40.280 is about to take over.

00:21:41.480 What happened to the revolution

00:21:42.820 in the 60s

00:21:43.560 was they refined

00:21:44.480 and sophisticated

00:21:46.280 their politics

00:21:47.660 and sought a,

00:21:49.720 as I say,

00:21:50.220 a moral, cultural

00:21:50.960 and social revolution

00:21:52.060 by other means

00:21:53.280 and began a long march

00:21:54.880 through the institutions

00:21:55.500 which bore fruit

00:21:56.340 in the 1990s

00:21:57.500 and is still with us.

00:21:58.640 Peter, do you not think...

00:21:59.540 I understand this

00:22:00.160 because I was so very nearly in it.

00:22:02.040 Oh no, of course.

00:22:02.720 I was there.

00:22:03.200 I was myself

00:22:04.240 a revolutionary Marxist

00:22:05.140 in the late 60s

00:22:06.600 and 1970s

00:22:07.720 and I broke quite bitterly

00:22:08.860 with my former comrades

00:22:09.820 and I make it public.

00:22:14.520 Anyone who asks me,

00:22:15.340 I'll tell them all about it.

00:22:16.420 When I joined,

00:22:17.260 where I joined,

00:22:17.720 what I did

00:22:18.140 and all the rest of it.

00:22:19.080 They don't.

00:22:20.200 Not one of these people,

00:22:21.240 not one of these people

00:22:21.800 who rose to cabinet rank

00:22:22.880 in the Blair government

00:22:23.940 has ever sat down

00:22:25.540 and discussed in detail

00:22:26.960 what it was that they did.

00:22:28.920 Broadway's smash hit,

00:22:30.280 The Neil Diamond Musical,

00:22:31.700 A Beautiful Noise,

00:22:33.120 is coming to Toronto.

00:22:34.320 The true story

00:22:35.340 of a kid from Brooklyn

00:22:36.400 destined for something more

00:22:37.920 featuring all the songs you love

00:22:39.700 including America,

00:22:41.120 Forever in Blue Jeans

00:22:42.160 and Sweet Caroline.

00:22:43.840 Like Jersey Boys

00:22:44.800 and Beautiful,

00:22:45.660 the next musical mega hit is here.

00:22:47.900 The Neil Diamond Musical,

00:22:49.500 A Beautiful Noise,

00:22:50.720 April 28th through June 7th,

00:22:52.660 2026,

00:22:53.740 The Princess of Wales Theatre.

00:22:55.640 Get tickets at mirvish.com.

00:22:58.160 And why have the right-wing newspapers

00:23:00.000 and media not exposed this?

00:23:01.540 Because they don't understand it.

00:23:02.600 And I do.

00:23:06.580 Actually,

00:23:07.380 if you don't have any understanding

00:23:08.740 of Marxism and Leninism,

00:23:09.760 you're completely at a loss

00:23:11.140 from understanding

00:23:11.680 modern European politics.

00:23:14.620 So...

00:23:15.100 A lot of, for instance,

00:23:15.960 someone like Daniel Kern Bandit,

00:23:17.280 who ended up as a Euro MP,

00:23:18.760 the currents which began

00:23:19.860 in 1968 Paris

00:23:22.600 and the May events

00:23:24.600 of people throwing

00:23:25.360 cobblestones at the Gendarmerie,

00:23:26.600 ended up in many cases

00:23:29.600 deep in the institutions

00:23:30.820 of the European Union.

00:23:32.900 One of the main founders

00:23:34.240 of the European project

00:23:35.000 was an Italian communist scholar,

00:23:36.460 Tiaro Spinelli.

00:23:39.480 You don't know this.

00:23:41.280 But if you are an ex-Trotskyist,

00:23:42.860 you do know,

00:23:43.480 because you can read the signs

00:23:44.540 and you understand the code.

00:23:45.500 It's all there.

00:23:46.800 These things are...

00:23:47.760 This is a left-wing project

00:23:48.900 which we face.

00:23:49.580 You look somewhat

00:23:52.220 inexplicably excited

00:23:53.340 about this.

00:23:53.700 It's funny.

00:23:54.780 It's become...

00:23:55.740 It used to make me

00:23:56.780 absolutely furious

00:23:57.700 standing there and saying,

00:23:58.660 look!

00:23:59.800 People saying,

00:24:00.460 what are you talking about?

00:24:01.960 And now I just...

00:24:02.860 I've given up that

00:24:04.440 and I know no one's ever

00:24:05.520 going to pay any attention

00:24:06.360 to anything I say.

00:24:07.220 So I have to learn

00:24:08.360 to enjoy the role of Cassandra.

00:24:10.660 The original Cassandra

00:24:11.580 had a terrible time.

00:24:13.560 Poor thing.

00:24:15.180 Because she continued

00:24:16.080 to believe that one day

00:24:17.400 somebody might listen to her.

00:24:18.520 Look, that horse.

00:24:19.240 It's full of soldiers.

00:24:20.180 No.

00:24:21.200 But I've learnt

00:24:22.620 that it only makes me unhappy

00:24:24.280 worrying about that.

00:24:25.580 So it makes me laugh

00:24:26.540 watching people

00:24:27.460 who think they know

00:24:28.780 about politics

00:24:29.420 who don't.

00:24:31.880 Peter,

00:24:32.520 is there a part of you

00:24:33.840 that thinks

00:24:34.340 that this particular

00:24:35.640 Labour project

00:24:36.400 is doomed to failure

00:24:37.460 because there's

00:24:38.160 too many different

00:24:39.760 types of leftists

00:24:41.880 under one particular umbrella?

00:24:43.860 He sounds like he's saying

00:24:44.840 he's doomed to succeed.

00:24:46.380 No, no euphopian project

00:24:48.280 ever succeeds.

00:24:49.240 That's axiomatic.

00:24:52.420 But in the course

00:24:53.000 of failing

00:24:53.500 it doesn't mean

00:24:54.260 it isn't going to roll

00:24:55.160 over civil society

00:24:56.900 and any opposition

00:24:58.280 to it like a steamroller.

00:25:00.780 So what you're

00:25:02.520 effectively saying

00:25:03.580 is that this is going

00:25:04.780 to destroy our society.

00:25:06.620 It's a bit channeled for,

00:25:07.480 isn't it,

00:25:07.660 what you're really saying?

00:25:08.400 No, no, no, I would

00:25:09.820 never do that.

00:25:10.660 Kathy Newman lives.

00:25:12.620 I think both

00:25:13.600 Kathy Newman and I

00:25:14.640 are offended

00:25:15.100 by that comparison.

00:25:17.040 But what you're talking

00:25:19.320 about is

00:25:19.880 the destruction

00:25:21.100 of British society,

00:25:22.400 really.

00:25:23.080 Civil society, yes.

00:25:25.200 Of course.

00:25:26.380 Well, the Blairites

00:25:26.960 did a lot of that anyway.

00:25:27.920 Look how

00:25:28.300 almost none

00:25:29.880 of the professions,

00:25:31.080 almost none

00:25:31.400 of the institutions

00:25:32.120 remains independent.

00:25:34.580 And the real triumph,

00:25:36.680 the stealth triumph

00:25:38.300 of their transformation

00:25:39.040 of the courts

00:25:39.720 and the legal system

00:25:40.940 is astounding.

00:25:43.480 Hardly anyway

00:25:44.260 has even heard

00:25:45.180 of the Judicial

00:25:46.980 Appointments Commission

00:25:47.760 which revolutionized

00:25:48.680 the appointments

00:25:49.140 to the judge's bench.

00:25:51.040 Very few people

00:25:51.860 understand the nature

00:25:52.780 and extent of the powers

00:25:54.940 of the Supreme Court.

00:25:56.320 These are gigantic changes,

00:25:57.700 but because they

00:25:58.300 bore people

00:25:59.540 as most serious

00:26:01.340 left-wing change does.

00:26:02.620 Because they bore people

00:26:03.180 they can't bother

00:26:05.280 to concentrate on them

00:26:06.340 or think about them.

00:26:08.180 And there isn't,

00:26:08.920 there certainly hasn't been

00:26:09.940 in British conservatism

00:26:10.980 any intellect

00:26:12.840 capable of understanding

00:26:13.860 what they're up against

00:26:14.640 for a very long time.

00:26:16.480 So what do you think

00:26:17.480 of now what we're seeing

00:26:18.440 which is a populist revolution

00:26:19.940 sweeping through Europe?

00:26:22.380 Oh, I don't think

00:26:23.320 there is such a thing.

00:26:24.940 I think there's an increase

00:26:26.200 in the vote

00:26:26.780 in certain disreputable parties,

00:26:29.060 but most of the countries

00:26:30.120 involved have a electoral system

00:26:31.380 which contain that.

00:26:33.140 And we make a lot of fuss

00:26:34.720 when the ex-fascist party

00:26:38.220 in Transylvania

00:26:40.620 moves up from 11% to 16%

00:26:43.300 in a proportional representation

00:26:44.700 in the European election.

00:26:46.400 I don't myself think

00:26:47.880 the moment for panic

00:26:48.880 has yet arrived.

00:26:53.900 Emmanuel Macron

00:26:54.860 has a bit of a problem

00:26:57.200 in France

00:26:57.700 but that's because

00:26:58.280 he destroyed the French

00:26:59.460 Tory party

00:27:00.700 to get into office

00:27:03.520 in the first place

00:27:04.240 and so he now

00:27:05.780 hasn't got any defence

00:27:07.180 against a complete

00:27:08.060 left-right split

00:27:09.140 and also that

00:27:09.800 Marine Le Pen

00:27:10.640 has been quite clever

00:27:11.400 but that's the only

00:27:12.560 really serious problem

00:27:14.420 that any of the major

00:27:15.320 European countries have.

00:27:16.140 Goethe Wilders

00:27:16.760 in Holland?

00:27:18.120 Well, what's his percentage?

00:27:19.640 The key was that his party

00:27:20.840 was the biggest party.

00:27:21.620 Yeah, but what was his percentage?

00:27:23.600 I don't remember.

00:27:24.360 Well, look it up.

00:27:24.940 It's not that big.

00:27:25.980 I mean, being the biggest party

00:27:27.780 in the Netherlands

00:27:28.300 doesn't mean you're very big.

00:27:31.300 But it invariably means...

00:27:32.640 That's like being the biggest

00:27:34.040 strongman in Lilliput.

00:27:35.100 It really isn't very big.

00:27:37.920 He hasn't got

00:27:38.760 a parliamentary majority.

00:27:40.180 He has to be...

00:27:41.300 If he forms a government

00:27:42.900 he has to form it

00:27:43.620 but people who disagree with him

00:27:44.960 will get in his way

00:27:46.300 and in a coalition

00:27:49.120 which is formed

00:27:49.700 after the election.

00:27:51.620 So, Peter,

00:27:52.140 bringing this back to home then,

00:27:54.500 the one party you mentioned

00:27:56.520 that a lot of people

00:27:57.500 who are frustrated

00:27:59.080 with the state

00:27:59.840 of the Conservative Party

00:28:00.820 as you are,

00:28:01.920 the one party

00:28:02.820 that they are keen

00:28:03.600 to vote for is reform.

00:28:05.240 What are your thoughts

00:28:06.000 on Nigel Farage and reform?

00:28:08.760 I get it.

00:28:09.560 Sorry, I'm suffering

00:28:13.320 from election fever.

00:28:15.600 I thought that was

00:28:16.580 an allergic reaction, Peter.

00:28:18.100 It may have been

00:28:18.880 but we're in the realm

00:28:21.060 of the subconscious here

00:28:22.040 as we almost always are

00:28:24.540 when dealing with Nigel Farage.

00:28:26.900 I mean,

00:28:28.220 I don't regard

00:28:28.960 Nigel Farage as conservative.

00:28:31.060 I regard him

00:28:31.900 as a sort of watered down

00:28:33.380 Britain's Tizer

00:28:39.300 to America's Coca-Cola,

00:28:41.040 Britain's Farage

00:28:42.240 to America's Trump.

00:28:43.460 It's a sort of,

00:28:44.220 he is a rightish populist,

00:28:47.340 whatever that means,

00:28:49.080 but he isn't a conservative.

00:28:50.720 For instance,

00:28:51.340 he has said,

00:28:53.060 he's now

00:28:53.660 sort of scrabbling backwards on it

00:28:55.220 because I keep

00:28:55.820 drawing attention to it.

00:28:56.600 He has spoken out

00:28:58.000 in favour

00:28:58.380 of the decriminalisation

00:29:00.860 of marijuana,

00:29:01.440 for instance,

00:29:01.820 which no intelligent person

00:29:04.360 and no conservative

00:29:05.120 could conceivably support.

00:29:06.900 So he gave himself

00:29:07.920 away twice on that.

00:29:09.740 I don't think

00:29:10.560 he's got a developed

00:29:11.720 set of positions

00:29:13.640 on social

00:29:14.860 and cultural matters

00:29:16.400 at all

00:29:17.440 or understands

00:29:18.320 basically

00:29:18.900 what he's up against

00:29:19.880 in new labour.

00:29:20.860 And in many ways,

00:29:23.360 I think my description

00:29:24.060 of whatever his party

00:29:25.440 is called this week

00:29:26.280 as a Thatcher tribute band

00:29:27.480 isn't far out.

00:29:29.860 That's who it really appeals to

00:29:31.500 as Thatcher nostalgias

00:29:32.620 for an era

00:29:33.360 which has definitively gone.

00:29:36.140 So I don't think

00:29:37.200 all that much of him,

00:29:38.260 but the other point

00:29:39.020 about it is,

00:29:41.060 in fact,

00:29:41.460 there is a less famous

00:29:43.840 than it should be

00:29:44.540 encounter between him

00:29:46.340 and me

00:29:46.740 on GB News,

00:29:48.460 which I recommend

00:29:49.280 you all to watch,

00:29:50.080 which seems to me

00:29:50.840 to end rather abruptly

00:29:51.960 because he was

00:29:53.320 in control of it.

00:29:55.600 I don't know,

00:29:56.140 anybody can watch it.

00:29:57.160 It's still there

00:29:57.820 on the internet.

00:29:59.640 Pints with Nigel Farage

00:30:01.000 or something?

00:30:01.480 Yeah.

00:30:01.960 Watch it.

00:30:03.020 You'll get an idea

00:30:03.720 of what I think

00:30:04.220 of Nigel Farage

00:30:04.980 from there

00:30:05.240 better than I can give you

00:30:06.080 in our short encounter now.

00:30:08.480 But in terms of voting,

00:30:10.200 the British voting system

00:30:11.740 is very simple.

00:30:13.160 There are two parties

00:30:14.100 which can win

00:30:14.900 general election

00:30:15.740 in 2024

00:30:16.820 and neither of them

00:30:17.760 is reform.

00:30:19.020 And if you do vote

00:30:20.080 for reform,

00:30:20.560 if you were going

00:30:21.360 to vote for,

00:30:22.580 what should I say,

00:30:23.300 another party

00:30:24.260 which was more likely

00:30:25.000 to defeat Labour,

00:30:26.100 then you are effectively

00:30:26.940 voting Labour.

00:30:28.560 There isn't any

00:30:29.040 getting out of this.

00:30:29.900 I mean,

00:30:30.420 the reform spokesman

00:30:33.480 of the debate

00:30:34.460 I attended last night

00:30:35.280 had unheard

00:30:35.720 admitted it.

00:30:37.880 They can't win

00:30:38.840 this time.

00:30:39.380 It's not possible.

00:30:39.960 And they all go on and on

00:30:40.840 about how there's going

00:30:41.400 to be some catastrophe now.

00:30:43.400 They sound actually

00:30:44.100 remarkably like Trotskyists.

00:30:45.780 They're going to have

00:30:46.160 a catastrophe

00:30:46.700 out of which

00:30:47.320 will come

00:30:47.780 the revolution

00:30:49.260 in 2029

00:30:50.480 after five years

00:30:52.040 of Keir Starmer.

00:30:53.140 Then it'll be all right.

00:30:54.700 Well, that is the argument.

00:30:55.460 On our northern shores,

00:30:56.480 Nigel Farage will appear

00:30:57.560 and sweep the country.

00:30:58.420 Well, I don't think

00:30:58.880 this is very likely,

00:31:00.180 practically or politically,

00:31:01.100 not least because

00:31:01.800 it seems to me

00:31:02.440 that Labour and Keir Starmer

00:31:05.040 have no intention

00:31:05.960 of relinquishing

00:31:07.240 what they gain.

00:31:08.320 The incredible cynicism

00:31:10.560 and it is in the manifesto

00:31:12.660 of giving votes

00:31:14.360 to 16-year-olds.

00:31:15.660 And no,

00:31:16.000 it's indefensible.

00:31:18.220 He knows it's indefensible.

00:31:19.620 There's only a couple

00:31:20.140 of years since Labour MPs

00:31:21.060 voted to ban people

00:31:22.140 from getting married

00:31:22.840 at the age of 16.

00:31:24.860 And you can't,

00:31:26.360 and also they ban them

00:31:27.620 from buying cigarettes

00:31:28.420 at the age of 16.

00:31:29.240 You can't buy fireworks.

00:31:30.920 You can't go into,

00:31:32.120 you can't be put in a combat unit

00:31:33.540 in the army at 16

00:31:34.420 and yet suddenly

00:31:35.060 voting's okay.

00:31:36.700 It is boundlessly cynical.

00:31:39.000 And it comes from a man

00:31:40.240 who has in recent years

00:31:41.920 said that he would like

00:31:42.720 to give EU citizens

00:31:44.400 living in Britain the vote.

00:31:46.040 He now says

00:31:46.600 he doesn't want to do that.

00:31:47.700 But how valuable

00:31:48.720 is that as a pledge?

00:31:50.460 He makes a weathercock

00:31:52.460 look like a signpost.

00:31:55.840 He swivels around so much

00:31:57.380 on things that don't matter to him.

00:31:58.780 This is, I think,

00:31:59.680 probably because his deep,

00:32:00.980 profound, dogmatic

00:32:02.920 left-wing principles

00:32:03.660 never alter.

00:32:04.860 He feels quite happy

00:32:05.700 about swiveling around

00:32:06.580 wildly on superficial issues.

00:32:08.540 But I think that the idea

00:32:10.140 that this Labour Party,

00:32:13.900 if it gains power,

00:32:14.980 will relinquish it again

00:32:16.160 is fanciful.

00:32:17.180 They won't.

00:32:17.920 They're not proposing

00:32:18.780 to give up.

00:32:19.660 You get at least 20 years

00:32:20.600 of them,

00:32:20.900 by that time

00:32:21.340 they will pretty much

00:32:22.160 have finished their project.

00:32:23.740 So you think

00:32:24.900 that we're going

00:32:25.400 to get 20 years?

00:32:26.260 I actually think so.

00:32:27.700 Because we've spoken

00:32:28.640 to a lot of people.

00:32:29.240 They've always wanted 20 years.

00:32:30.540 Oh, I mean,

00:32:31.020 every political party

00:32:31.940 wants 20 years.

00:32:32.740 But there's a particular thing

00:32:33.740 and if you're transferring wealth

00:32:35.200 from one group of people

00:32:36.100 to another,

00:32:37.280 any form of taxation

00:32:38.880 has to be slow acting on this.

00:32:40.140 You can't do it quickly.

00:32:41.920 It has to be done slowly.

00:32:43.220 This is the point

00:32:43.580 that Nye Bevan made

00:32:44.460 in his very dangerous speech

00:32:45.620 in 1945

00:32:46.220 to do what they needed.

00:32:48.920 They needed a really long

00:32:49.820 period in government,

00:32:50.620 which they felt cheated of,

00:32:51.700 of course,

00:32:51.960 in 1951

00:32:52.580 when they were kicked out

00:32:54.400 after only six years.

00:32:55.800 If the 45 government

00:32:56.940 had lasted

00:32:57.420 as it was intended to do

00:32:58.640 probably until 1960,

00:33:00.160 the country would be

00:33:00.840 through a much more profound

00:33:01.980 social and economic revolution

00:33:03.180 than it actually suffered.

00:33:06.080 Because they finished in 1951

00:33:08.000 and what they left behind

00:33:09.120 was in many cases

00:33:10.020 quite popular.

00:33:10.960 They hadn't gone on

00:33:11.940 to the bad bits.

00:33:12.980 But I guess

00:33:14.500 when it comes to that point

00:33:15.860 about the 20 years,

00:33:17.460 every person on the left,

00:33:18.980 let's be fair,

00:33:19.960 the left is always

00:33:21.720 in this purity spiral

00:33:22.940 where they've always gone,

00:33:24.420 nobody,

00:33:25.000 you're not really

00:33:25.740 on the left because of X,

00:33:26.920 you're not really

00:33:27.360 on the left because of Y.

00:33:28.800 I haven't spoken

00:33:30.020 to somebody on the left

00:33:31.720 or in Labour

00:33:33.420 who is actually enthused

00:33:34.780 by Keir Starmer at all,

00:33:36.020 which makes me think,

00:33:36.860 is he actually going to be able

00:33:37.860 to last even a term?

00:33:39.100 Don't you remember

00:33:39.420 the saying about Blair?

00:33:40.620 No, when I remember

00:33:41.460 when Blair came to power.

00:33:42.400 Oh, yes, they were always saying,

00:33:43.000 oh, we can't stand him,

00:33:43.920 he's really a Tory

00:33:44.600 and all this stuff.

00:33:45.700 Half the Labour Party membership

00:33:48.180 say that the whole time.

00:33:50.180 But then they can't

00:33:50.900 understand it either.

00:33:52.680 And you have to have,

00:33:53.680 you had two groups of people

00:33:54.660 who didn't understand Blair.

00:33:56.720 One were the Kevins

00:33:57.940 in the working men's club

00:33:58.940 who thought Blair was a Tory

00:34:01.060 and the other were the Nigels

00:34:02.700 in the golf clubs

00:34:03.360 who also thought Blair was a Tory.

00:34:04.580 They were both equally wrong.

00:34:06.360 But to reveal to the Labour supporters

00:34:09.480 how radical Labour was

00:34:10.760 would have been to reveal

00:34:11.560 to the golf club goers

00:34:12.980 how radical they were

00:34:13.820 and they didn't want to do that.

00:34:14.640 So they were left in ignorance.

00:34:16.340 It doesn't do any harm.

00:34:16.940 They still vote Labour

00:34:17.600 when it comes to it.

00:34:18.900 Labour vote is still pretty loyal.

00:34:20.280 Peter, I think a point

00:34:22.000 I'm trying to make

00:34:22.520 and I do think it's a fair one

00:34:23.660 is the level of enthusiasm

00:34:25.440 that we saw in 1997

00:34:27.060 is simply not there for the...

00:34:29.460 Well, thank heaven for that at least.

00:34:31.180 Right.

00:34:31.540 But I mean,

00:34:32.000 they can manage without enthusiasm

00:34:33.900 provided they're organised.

00:34:36.200 Who needs enthusiasm

00:34:37.300 when you have had

00:34:38.600 this amazing business

00:34:39.980 of the opinion polls

00:34:41.000 trumpeting from the moment

00:34:42.180 the election began.

00:34:43.020 The Tories have already lost.

00:34:44.040 The Tories have already lost.

00:34:44.940 The Tories have already lost

00:34:46.180 night and day

00:34:46.900 into the earphones.

00:34:48.160 The Tories have already lost.

00:34:49.160 The Tories have lost.

00:34:49.900 The Tories have lost

00:34:50.500 every day,

00:34:51.580 every afternoon,

00:34:52.380 every morning,

00:34:53.000 every evening,

00:34:53.660 every night.

00:34:54.220 The Tories have lost.

00:34:55.060 The Tories have lost.

00:34:56.200 People believe it.

00:34:58.400 That's what you need.

00:34:59.640 This is the best form of propaganda.

00:35:02.320 If you've got an enemy army

00:35:03.980 bottled up,

00:35:04.780 you fly over

00:35:05.560 with your planes

00:35:07.180 dropping the propaganda leaf

00:35:08.300 that's pointing out

00:35:08.940 that you've lost,

00:35:09.780 you've lost,

00:35:10.200 you've lost surrender.

00:35:11.020 It's what you do.

00:35:11.880 You tell people

00:35:12.480 they've already lost.

00:35:13.240 No, that's fair enough.

00:35:14.380 They believe it.

00:35:15.460 Who needs a manifesto?

00:35:17.620 Who needs even

00:35:18.840 to win a debate?

00:35:19.760 Who needs to have

00:35:20.400 a personality

00:35:21.060 which Keir Starmer

00:35:21.880 appears to lack?

00:35:22.700 Who needs to have

00:35:23.200 any presence

00:35:23.780 which Keir Starmer

00:35:24.460 has to lack?

00:35:25.020 Who needs to have

00:35:25.860 any posters?

00:35:27.200 Have you seen

00:35:27.660 an election van?

00:35:28.620 Who needs to have

00:35:29.120 any activity?

00:35:29.780 If you've got that

00:35:30.580 going for you,

00:35:31.920 then what does it matter?

00:35:33.520 So enthusiasm

00:35:34.400 is not necessary.

00:35:35.620 No, we were talking

00:35:36.400 about enthusiasm

00:35:37.180 as in there is a lack

00:35:38.600 of enthusiasm

00:35:39.160 at the moment

00:35:40.160 which will translate

00:35:41.620 into where

00:35:42.520 in a difficult situation

00:35:43.940 economically as a country.

00:35:45.440 I don't think

00:35:46.160 many of the things

00:35:46.940 that people are concerned

00:35:47.920 about at the moment

00:35:48.700 are going to get

00:35:49.200 any better

00:35:49.640 over the next five years.

00:35:50.440 They're probably

00:35:50.720 going to get worse

00:35:51.480 and so the argument

00:35:52.700 is after five years

00:35:54.840 people are going

00:35:55.980 to be the way

00:35:57.320 that they're currently

00:35:57.960 annoyed with

00:35:58.460 the Conservative Party.

00:35:59.340 They're going to be

00:35:59.880 just as annoyed

00:36:00.580 if not more

00:36:01.080 with the Labour Party

00:36:02.000 which is perhaps

00:36:03.160 the reform opportunity.

00:36:04.260 But in five years

00:36:04.940 quite a lot of the

00:36:05.880 existing Conservatives

00:36:07.800 will have gone

00:36:08.480 to their award

00:36:09.080 and the 16-year-olds

00:36:12.080 will be able to vote.

00:36:13.280 And the number

00:36:13.740 of people,

00:36:14.300 the number

00:36:14.520 of loyal Conservatives

00:36:15.380 in this country

00:36:15.820 goes down all the time

00:36:16.960 because they're not

00:36:17.980 making them anymore.

00:36:19.900 Very few people

00:36:20.680 are growing up

00:36:21.240 Conservative.

00:36:22.660 It just isn't happening.

00:36:24.500 So the simple passage

00:36:25.720 of time reduces

00:36:26.560 the Conservative vote

00:36:27.440 and if you

00:36:29.540 enfranchise 16-year-olds

00:36:30.680 and if you enfranchise

00:36:31.520 EU citizens

00:36:32.100 living in this country

00:36:32.860 of whom there are

00:36:33.320 quite a few

00:36:34.000 then what does it

00:36:36.420 matter whether

00:36:36.840 you have enthusiasm

00:36:37.580 or enthusiasm

00:36:38.160 is not necessary

00:36:39.160 where you have

00:36:40.040 organisation

00:36:40.620 and effective propaganda.

00:36:42.420 But Peter as well

00:36:43.420 it's not just

00:36:44.520 it's also the

00:36:46.240 incompetence

00:36:46.920 of the Conservative Party

00:36:48.000 and the fact

00:36:48.560 that they have

00:36:49.140 failed to deliver

00:36:50.820 on key election

00:36:51.820 pledges

00:36:52.200 including immigration.

00:36:53.260 Of course it is.

00:36:54.140 But I mean

00:36:54.500 this is a given

00:36:57.720 like the fact

00:36:58.220 the sun rises

00:36:58.880 in the east

00:36:59.780 and the morning

00:37:00.380 comes before the afternoon.

00:37:01.400 We know this.

00:37:02.020 It's not what's discussing.

00:37:04.000 That's all that's so

00:37:05.100 but it doesn't

00:37:05.640 it doesn't affect

00:37:06.300 the here we have

00:37:07.380 probably the biggest

00:37:09.080 political economic

00:37:10.700 and social change

00:37:11.400 which this country

00:37:11.960 has undergone

00:37:12.560 in its modern history

00:37:13.940 and an election campaign

00:37:15.340 of total vacuity

00:37:16.160 in which no major issue

00:37:17.160 is ever discussed.

00:37:18.620 How's that come about?

00:37:20.320 That is the important thing

00:37:21.580 and people

00:37:22.740 and people

00:37:23.460 trotting

00:37:24.360 bleating

00:37:24.820 towards the

00:37:25.520 towards the pens

00:37:26.300 where they're assured

00:37:27.000 that they can strike

00:37:28.980 a blow

00:37:29.320 at the Conservative Party

00:37:30.460 and that's what

00:37:30.960 they're going to vote for.

00:37:31.820 That's no

00:37:32.380 what we're going to vote for.

00:37:33.660 We're going to punish

00:37:34.360 the Tories.

00:37:35.460 In fact

00:37:35.760 we're going to punish

00:37:36.260 ourselves.

00:37:37.280 Everybody who votes

00:37:38.060 to put a Labour government

00:37:40.620 in will be punishing

00:37:41.340 himself or herself

00:37:42.280 for decades to come

00:37:43.800 but for one brief

00:37:46.340 shining moment

00:37:47.100 lasting perhaps

00:37:48.120 45 seconds

00:37:51.740 and gosh

00:37:52.440 I've punished the Tories.

00:37:54.160 Great.

00:37:55.660 I've really given

00:37:56.980 a hard time

00:37:57.520 to lose trust.

00:37:58.340 I've voted Labour.

00:37:59.560 Well I haven't voted

00:38:00.060 I've voted reform

00:38:00.820 but I've actually voted Labour.

00:38:01.880 that'll show

00:38:03.520 Liz Truss

00:38:04.160 won't you know.

00:38:05.980 Nothing will show

00:38:06.700 Liz Truss actually.

00:38:09.680 It's just ludicrous.

00:38:11.360 It's mistaking

00:38:12.860 a political act

00:38:13.700 for an emotional spasm

00:38:15.020 or the other way around.

00:38:17.140 Peter it's always great

00:38:17.980 to get you on

00:38:18.540 because you really

00:38:19.140 cheer us up.

00:38:20.800 That's my job.

00:38:22.220 There's nothing

00:38:22.720 look at me.

00:38:23.520 It's being so pessimistic

00:38:26.240 accepting that we're all doomed

00:38:27.580 that keeps me so cheerful.

00:38:30.320 And I remind you

00:38:31.880 of my watchword

00:38:33.400 in between the crisis

00:38:34.280 and the catastrophe

00:38:35.240 we may as well

00:38:36.260 have a glass of champagne.

00:38:38.180 It's my view.

00:38:38.920 I can't live any other way.

00:38:40.740 If I actually believed

00:38:42.140 that I had influenced events

00:38:43.180 and that I wasn't doing

00:38:43.940 enough to do it

00:38:44.520 I would go mad with grief.

00:38:46.440 So I just cease to do that.

00:38:49.000 There's no point in making

00:38:49.920 yourself deliberately unhappy.

00:38:51.900 Which I don't think there is.

00:38:53.100 I mean there are people

00:38:53.760 obviously who have

00:38:54.700 all kinds of weird proclivities.

00:38:56.300 And this is my other point.

00:38:57.360 If you don't like

00:38:58.380 the conservative government

00:38:59.880 and you're going to

00:39:01.700 substitute a Labour government

00:39:02.900 for it

00:39:03.380 you'll like someone

00:39:04.140 who's living with a masochist

00:39:05.440 who doesn't like

00:39:07.520 all those whips

00:39:08.180 and chains

00:39:08.700 and handcuffs and stuff

00:39:09.740 and chucks out the masochist

00:39:11.500 and goes and moves in

00:39:12.220 with a sadist.

00:39:13.560 It's a ludicrous reaction

00:39:15.420 to the problem.

00:39:16.760 So

00:39:17.040 what should

00:39:19.520 the ordinary

00:39:20.560 It's reaching you.

00:39:21.120 What should

00:39:21.680 the ordinary person

00:39:22.460 do Peter?

00:39:23.460 What should

00:39:23.760 he's told you to leave.

00:39:25.140 Vote against Labour.

00:39:26.160 Give yourself

00:39:26.660 another five years

00:39:29.040 before the heavens fall.

00:39:30.580 Vote against Labour.

00:39:31.560 It won't be as bad

00:39:33.520 if you do that

00:39:34.600 and succeed in keeping them out

00:39:36.020 as it will be

00:39:36.480 if they get in.

00:39:38.200 Maybe some miracle.

00:39:40.360 Maybe we'll discover

00:39:42.500 another vast bubble

00:39:44.060 of gas and oil.

00:39:45.260 Maybe some other

00:39:45.860 fantastic thing

00:39:46.580 will happen to the country

00:39:47.400 between now

00:39:48.400 and the next election

00:39:49.040 during which we can

00:39:49.760 rescue ourselves economically

00:39:51.320 and on the basis

00:39:52.140 of that politically

00:39:52.800 and socially as well.

00:39:54.160 It's highly unlikely

00:39:55.420 but who knows

00:39:55.960 stranger things

00:39:56.560 that happen.

00:39:57.740 Maybe

00:39:58.180 but whatever

00:39:58.700 you'll at least

00:39:59.180 give yourself

00:39:59.880 a five year reprieve

00:40:01.620 from the worst

00:40:02.760 imaginable government

00:40:03.680 in modern times.

00:40:04.640 Why would you possibly

00:40:05.620 not take that chance?

00:40:07.600 Offered a reprieve.

00:40:08.960 Why not take it?

00:40:10.180 Yeah.

00:40:10.500 I mean look

00:40:11.060 your argument

00:40:11.980 sounds more and more

00:40:12.760 rational

00:40:13.180 as I become determined

00:40:15.700 to leave this country

00:40:16.520 imminently

00:40:17.060 based on your

00:40:18.440 excellent advice.

00:40:20.640 Well as you can.

00:40:22.260 If you are able

00:40:23.260 to make a living

00:40:24.200 somewhere else

00:40:25.200 as things are

00:40:26.240 I've never seen

00:40:27.260 a country

00:40:27.720 more wrecked

00:40:31.700 than this one

00:40:32.300 and more determined

00:40:33.520 to pursue

00:40:34.180 a path of wreckage.

00:40:35.580 I mean look

00:40:35.940 add to what we have now

00:40:38.440 our economic problems

00:40:39.280 that we have now

00:40:39.880 add a fanatical pursuit

00:40:41.500 of net zero

00:40:42.080 over the next 10 years.

00:40:44.040 The idea that labour

00:40:44.980 while it pursues net zero

00:40:46.120 can somehow

00:40:48.000 rather mastermind

00:40:48.780 an economic recovery

00:40:49.600 is comically impossible

00:40:52.700 and I would like

00:40:54.240 to remind you

00:40:55.020 that Rachel Reeves

00:40:57.120 the supposedly

00:40:58.540 moderate

00:40:59.040 and responsible

00:41:00.580 chancellor

00:41:01.020 has a favourite guru

00:41:02.740 in the world

00:41:03.260 of economists.

00:41:04.400 Do you know

00:41:04.700 who she is?

00:41:06.320 It's the late

00:41:06.980 Joan Robinson.

00:41:08.860 Do you know

00:41:09.200 anything about her?

00:41:09.760 No.

00:41:10.660 Well

00:41:11.020 she was a very clever woman

00:41:12.660 but she did have

00:41:15.000 a bit of a tendency

00:41:16.600 to admire

00:41:17.280 first of all

00:41:18.360 Mao Zedong

00:41:19.000 and then after that

00:41:20.580 North Korean.

00:41:22.080 Excellent.

00:41:22.480 She is the

00:41:23.080 proclaimed

00:41:23.700 favourite

00:41:24.980 economist guru

00:41:26.100 of the

00:41:28.600 chancellor

00:41:28.880 very well.

00:41:30.140 So you're not

00:41:30.760 here dealing

00:41:31.280 with unideological

00:41:32.860 people.

00:41:34.960 And so

00:41:35.880 what did this

00:41:36.880 economist want?

00:41:38.220 I mean

00:41:38.460 you've alluded to it

00:41:39.500 Jane Robinson.

00:41:40.540 Yes.

00:41:41.140 Well she

00:41:41.820 had a particular

00:41:42.720 I can't even

00:41:43.180 remember the name

00:41:43.880 of her post-Keynes

00:41:44.920 theory but

00:41:45.820 you can find

00:41:47.060 and I have

00:41:47.620 published

00:41:48.020 works in which

00:41:50.000 she loads

00:41:52.040 praise upon

00:41:53.480 the Mao Zedong

00:41:54.340 regime during

00:41:55.060 some of its

00:41:55.500 stupidest action

00:41:56.480 and that's

00:41:57.440 quite stupid

00:41:58.200 and also

00:41:59.100 a particular article

00:42:00.040 in which she

00:42:00.940 becomes extremely

00:42:02.480 lyrical about

00:42:03.740 the Democratic

00:42:05.240 People's Republic

00:42:05.900 of Korea.

00:42:06.480 Now

00:42:08.620 And this is

00:42:09.300 the named

00:42:11.100 guru of

00:42:11.760 prospective

00:42:12.860 chancellor

00:42:13.320 of the

00:42:13.540 Exegger

00:42:13.840 I wish

00:42:14.720 you joy

00:42:15.120 of it

00:42:15.420 again I

00:42:16.880 shall be

00:42:17.160 laughing.

00:42:18.680 Now

00:42:19.240 if we look

00:42:20.400 at the

00:42:20.600 Conservative

00:42:21.060 Party

00:42:21.560 what do

00:42:22.320 they need

00:42:22.960 to do

00:42:23.480 in order

00:42:24.180 to regain

00:42:25.600 the trust

00:42:26.120 of the

00:42:26.380 British

00:42:26.600 people?

00:42:27.260 Well

00:42:27.400 if they

00:42:28.400 were to

00:42:29.340 remain in

00:42:30.120 government

00:42:30.420 keep out

00:42:30.840 Labour

00:42:31.100 the best

00:42:32.420 thing they

00:42:32.820 could do

00:42:33.120 because they

00:42:33.420 won't do it

00:42:33.940 would be

00:42:35.280 to continue

00:42:36.580 to govern

00:42:37.580 the country

00:42:38.660 not as

00:42:39.680 new Labour

00:42:40.080 as they

00:42:40.340 have been

00:42:40.720 but with

00:42:41.360 a certain

00:42:41.900 amount

00:42:42.200 of

00:42:42.720 conservatism

00:42:43.320 while the

00:42:44.180 rest of us

00:42:44.780 burrowed away

00:42:45.480 to replace

00:42:45.960 them with

00:42:46.340 a proper

00:42:47.020 Conservative

00:42:47.440 Party

00:42:47.780 by which I

00:42:48.660 do not

00:42:48.960 mean

00:42:49.140 Reform

00:42:49.420 UK

00:42:49.640 I mean

00:42:50.060 a party

00:42:50.360 which

00:42:50.580 understands

00:42:51.100 the nature

00:42:51.580 and principles

00:42:52.140 of

00:42:53.040 conservatism

00:42:53.660 It would

00:42:55.540 give us

00:42:55.760 a five-year

00:42:56.320 interval

00:42:56.620 in which

00:42:56.940 we could

00:42:57.220 do that

00:42:57.600 all I

00:42:58.620 would ask

00:42:59.040 them to

00:42:59.540 do

00:42:59.620 is not

00:42:59.880 make

00:43:00.080 things

00:43:00.280 any worse

00:43:00.800 So

00:43:01.240 what are

00:43:01.440 your

00:43:01.580 predictions

00:43:01.980 for the

00:43:02.340 election

00:43:02.580 Peter?

00:43:02.860 I don't

00:43:03.580 know

00:43:03.860 I don't

00:43:05.220 think

00:43:05.340 anybody

00:43:05.600 knows

00:43:05.960 I

00:43:06.300 mistrust

00:43:06.780 polls

00:43:07.160 I've

00:43:07.580 lived

00:43:07.760 through

00:43:07.980 many

00:43:08.280 occasions

00:43:08.760 when

00:43:08.980 polls

00:43:09.220 have

00:43:09.340 been

00:43:09.460 wrong

00:43:09.900 To this

00:43:11.440 level

00:43:11.740 though

00:43:11.980 I mean

00:43:13.580 for the

00:43:14.180 Labour Party

00:43:14.780 not to be

00:43:15.420 elected now

00:43:15.960 Polls are not

00:43:16.960 what they

00:43:17.320 were

00:43:17.620 when

00:43:18.000 Mr.

00:43:19.740 Dr.

00:43:20.560 Gallop

00:43:20.920 invented

00:43:21.520 opinion polls

00:43:22.060 before the

00:43:22.520 Second World War

00:43:23.380 people lived

00:43:24.820 in houses

00:43:25.740 and he would

00:43:26.120 go and knock

00:43:26.580 on their

00:43:26.800 doors

00:43:26.980 and they

00:43:27.180 answer

00:43:27.420 the

00:43:27.880 doors

00:43:28.160 and they

00:43:28.520 working from

00:43:31.700 home

00:43:31.900 and people

00:43:34.540 answered

00:43:34.820 their

00:43:35.000 telephones

00:43:35.520 and now

00:43:36.620 you have

00:43:36.820 a completely

00:43:37.120 different

00:43:37.380 society

00:43:37.780 I would

00:43:38.480 be fascinated

00:43:39.120 to know

00:43:39.680 how

00:43:40.660 in a country

00:43:41.360 where people

00:43:41.760 rarely answer

00:43:42.440 the door

00:43:42.800 unless they

00:43:43.160 think it's

00:43:43.460 Amazon

00:43:43.780 and how

00:43:45.520 in a society

00:43:45.940 where nobody

00:43:46.740 under the age

00:43:47.700 of 40

00:43:48.060 seems to

00:43:48.460 answer the

00:43:48.760 telephone

00:43:49.100 ever

00:43:49.460 anymore

00:43:49.940 opinion polls

00:43:51.180 are conducted

00:43:51.700 and the

00:43:53.840 other thing

00:43:54.160 that I do

00:43:54.580 know

00:43:54.880 particularly

00:43:55.480 from the

00:43:55.880 2010

00:43:56.260 election

00:43:56.740 which I

00:43:57.660 looked at

00:43:58.100 very closely

00:43:58.660 because I

00:43:59.020 simply did

00:43:59.500 not believe

00:44:00.100 the constant

00:44:00.780 reports that

00:44:01.380 David Cameron

00:44:01.880 was on course

00:44:02.460 for a

00:44:03.160 smashing victory

00:44:03.900 what happened

00:44:05.140 was that

00:44:05.760 huge numbers

00:44:07.020 of people

00:44:07.380 were either

00:44:08.320 not saying

00:44:09.160 how they were

00:44:09.900 going to vote

00:44:10.220 or saying

00:44:10.600 they didn't

00:44:11.000 know

00:44:11.360 and they

00:44:12.060 were excluded

00:44:12.640 from the

00:44:13.300 tallies

00:44:13.640 which the

00:44:14.120 newspapers

00:44:14.540 then published

00:44:15.280 as if they

00:44:16.120 were tallies

00:44:17.080 of 100%

00:44:17.940 so the

00:44:18.560 newspaper would

00:44:19.000 say that

00:44:19.320 the Tories

00:44:19.700 had gained

00:44:20.260 5% or

00:44:21.000 7%

00:44:21.540 of about

00:44:25.380 40%

00:44:25.940 of the votes

00:44:26.380 so much

00:44:26.860 much less

00:44:27.380 than that

00:44:27.800 so quite

00:44:28.660 small movements

00:44:29.500 were portrayed

00:44:30.140 as big

00:44:30.700 it can be

00:44:31.540 very misleading

00:44:32.100 my view

00:44:32.880 is that

00:44:33.140 the opinion

00:44:33.800 poll

00:44:34.140 organisations

00:44:34.720 the work

00:44:35.600 they do

00:44:36.220 to the

00:44:37.620 extent

00:44:37.820 that they

00:44:38.080 can

00:44:38.580 in the

00:44:38.840 circumstances

00:44:39.280 they do

00:44:39.700 it is

00:44:40.300 good

00:44:40.540 it has

00:44:40.860 to be

00:44:41.080 because

00:44:41.220 their

00:44:41.380 basic

00:44:41.740 job

00:44:42.000 is

00:44:42.120 market

00:44:42.340 research

00:44:42.760 if they

00:44:43.580 fail

00:44:43.820 in

00:44:43.940 elections

00:44:44.320 then

00:44:44.580 their

00:44:44.780 market

00:44:45.060 research

00:44:45.360 customers

00:44:45.740 won't

00:44:46.240 come to

00:44:46.640 them

00:44:46.780 anymore

00:44:47.100 but

00:44:48.160 those

00:44:48.640 are

00:44:48.740 the

00:44:48.860 raw

00:44:49.000 figures

00:44:49.380 the

00:44:49.540 way

00:44:49.720 in which

00:44:49.940 those

00:44:50.120 raw

00:44:50.340 figures

00:44:50.640 are

00:44:50.840 then

00:44:51.160 projected

00:44:51.740 by the

00:44:52.220 media

00:44:52.440 is a

00:44:52.840 totally

00:44:53.120 different

00:44:53.400 thing

00:44:53.700 and you

00:44:53.880 have to

00:44:54.060 be aware

00:44:54.360 of that

00:44:54.600 so I

00:44:55.260 don't know

00:44:55.700 I remember

00:44:56.680 very well

00:44:57.360 when I was

00:44:58.120 at Trotsky

00:44:58.560 in 1970

00:44:59.220 I was also

00:45:00.240 18 and

00:45:00.880 just benefited

00:45:01.880 from Harold

00:45:02.280 Wilson's

00:45:02.720 cynical

00:45:03.020 granting of

00:45:04.460 the vote

00:45:04.760 to 18

00:45:05.260 year olds

00:45:05.580 standing outside

00:45:07.100 Oxford

00:45:07.380 Town Hall

00:45:07.860 at midnight

00:45:08.820 because polls

00:45:09.260 closed earlier

00:45:09.840 in those days

00:45:10.240 waiting for

00:45:11.060 the result

00:45:11.660 which I

00:45:11.960 assumed

00:45:12.200 would be

00:45:12.380 a Labour

00:45:12.600 victory

00:45:12.880 and out

00:45:13.320 onto the

00:45:13.660 balcony

00:45:13.960 of Oxford

00:45:14.340 Town Hall

00:45:14.780 on that

00:45:15.740 warm June

00:45:16.240 night

00:45:16.540 came

00:45:17.080 the newly

00:45:19.340 elected

00:45:19.700 Tory MP

00:45:21.060 the right

00:45:22.800 honourable

00:45:23.240 Monty

00:45:24.540 Woodhouse

00:45:25.220 formerly of

00:45:26.420 MI6

00:45:26.980 and it was

00:45:29.260 a great surprise

00:45:29.840 to us all

00:45:30.180 and that was

00:45:30.600 the first

00:45:31.060 inclination I

00:45:32.260 and anybody else

00:45:32.820 had that night

00:45:33.620 of a complete

00:45:35.200 failure of the

00:45:35.880 opinion polls

00:45:36.400 together

00:45:36.620 they predicted

00:45:37.160 75 majority

00:45:38.320 for Harold

00:45:38.680 Wilson

00:45:38.900 and he was

00:45:40.740 thrown out of

00:45:41.180 office

00:45:41.480 and they

00:45:42.880 famously

00:45:43.760 the swing

00:45:45.200 ommeter

00:45:45.500 in the BBC

00:45:46.020 studios

00:45:46.640 which was

00:45:47.700 then painted

00:45:48.760 on a piece

00:45:49.220 of plywood

00:45:50.620 wasn't big

00:45:52.020 enough

00:45:52.360 to express

00:45:53.940 the swings

00:45:54.360 they had to

00:45:54.700 get a painter

00:45:55.160 in to paint

00:45:55.680 a longer

00:45:56.760 curve

00:45:57.100 on the swing

00:45:57.500 ommeter

00:45:57.760 because the

00:45:58.960 polls

00:45:59.280 were so

00:45:59.940 wrong

00:46:00.260 I also

00:46:01.000 remember

00:46:01.180 1992

00:46:01.740 when everybody

00:46:02.380 thought

00:46:02.640 Neil

00:46:02.860 Kennett would

00:46:03.280 win

00:46:03.440 and recently

00:46:05.640 elections abroad

00:46:06.740 in India

00:46:07.260 and in

00:46:07.920 Australia

00:46:08.320 and in

00:46:09.960 Norway

00:46:10.440 the polls

00:46:11.060 have been

00:46:11.420 completely wrong

00:46:12.180 the polling

00:46:13.740 organisations

00:46:14.300 constantly strive

00:46:15.260 to keep up

00:46:15.840 with change

00:46:16.340 in society

00:46:16.800 so nothing

00:46:17.660 needs to

00:46:18.440 surprise you

00:46:18.840 what I think

00:46:19.560 people should

00:46:19.980 be very careful

00:46:20.620 of don't let

00:46:21.580 the polls

00:46:21.980 rob you of

00:46:22.540 your mind

00:46:22.960 and will

00:46:23.320 do you

00:46:24.980 in any

00:46:25.460 important action

00:46:26.140 you have to

00:46:26.520 look over your

00:46:27.040 shoulder

00:46:27.380 before you

00:46:28.180 decide what

00:46:28.640 to do

00:46:29.060 or do you

00:46:29.880 as a

00:46:30.100 self-respecting

00:46:30.660 person

00:46:30.920 make your

00:46:31.280 own mind

00:46:31.660 up

00:46:31.920 letting your

00:46:33.320 vote be

00:46:33.620 influenced by

00:46:34.040 the opinion

00:46:34.360 polls

00:46:34.620 is being

00:46:35.100 the pathetic

00:46:36.360 direction

00:46:38.260 this person

00:46:38.840 the nowhere

00:46:40.100 man

00:46:40.420 who can't

00:46:41.100 make up

00:46:41.440 his own

00:46:42.280 mind

00:46:42.520 why be

00:46:43.260 that person

00:46:43.840 the election

00:46:45.320 hasn't taken

00:46:45.840 place

00:46:46.240 why people

00:46:47.140 are still

00:46:47.400 going around

00:46:48.260 all the time

00:46:48.940 acting and

00:46:49.940 speaking and

00:46:50.400 thinking as if

00:46:50.840 it has

00:46:51.200 big mistake

00:46:52.240 even from

00:46:53.600 the simple

00:46:54.280 point of view

00:46:54.660 of self-respect

00:46:55.240 it's a big

00:46:55.600 mistake

00:46:55.900 and Peter

00:46:57.460 I really want

00:46:58.660 to focus

00:46:59.080 on conservatism

00:47:00.080 what do you

00:47:02.100 mean by

00:47:02.580 conservatism

00:47:03.340 because we

00:47:03.880 talk to a lot

00:47:04.380 of people

00:47:04.780 everybody seems

00:47:05.440 to have a

00:47:05.720 different view

00:47:06.200 of it

00:47:06.500 oh love

00:47:07.420 of God

00:47:07.840 love

00:47:08.340 country

00:47:08.840 love

00:47:10.520 beauty

00:47:11.000 love

00:47:12.800 of

00:47:13.200 the

00:47:14.920 family

00:47:15.960 and

00:47:17.600 of your

00:47:18.280 fellow man

00:47:19.160 and expressed

00:47:20.360 in lasting

00:47:21.500 fair institutions

00:47:23.400 an absolute

00:47:24.480 attachment

00:47:25.000 to freedom

00:47:25.880 and the

00:47:26.960 rule of law

00:47:27.480 an unwillingness

00:47:28.900 to change

00:47:29.340 where it's

00:47:29.720 not necessary

00:47:30.500 and a

00:47:30.920 willingness

00:47:31.220 to change

00:47:31.680 where it is

00:47:32.500 an ability

00:47:33.220 to tell

00:47:34.920 change from

00:47:36.600 progress

00:47:37.020 and progress

00:47:37.560 from change

00:47:38.100 one could

00:47:40.840 go on

00:47:41.380 but you

00:47:41.960 obviously

00:47:42.280 don't want

00:47:42.680 the long

00:47:42.960 definition

00:47:43.340 I'd have

00:47:43.660 to give

00:47:43.900 you a book

00:47:44.320 and why

00:47:46.560 is this

00:47:47.060 conservative

00:47:47.540 government

00:47:47.960 in your

00:47:48.460 opinion

00:47:48.740 not

00:47:49.160 conservative

00:47:49.700 well it

00:47:50.440 never has

00:47:50.860 been

00:47:51.080 the

00:47:51.240 conservative

00:47:51.560 party

00:47:51.820 has always

00:47:52.220 been

00:47:52.460 an organisation

00:47:53.000 for attaining

00:47:53.460 office for the

00:47:54.000 sons of

00:47:54.320 gentlemen

00:47:54.620 the name

00:47:56.220 has always

00:47:57.800 been misleading

00:47:58.340 and its

00:47:59.760 history is not

00:48:00.840 particularly

00:48:01.380 conservative

00:48:01.780 and indeed

00:48:02.260 it absorbed

00:48:03.900 what was left

00:48:04.560 of the

00:48:04.740 liberal

00:48:04.900 party

00:48:05.320 Winston Churchill

00:48:08.060 if you remember

00:48:08.540 spent a lot

00:48:09.000 of his

00:48:09.240 political life

00:48:10.920 as a liberal

00:48:11.300 at one point

00:48:12.220 it's never

00:48:12.520 been a conservative

00:48:13.140 party

00:48:13.400 so it would be

00:48:14.220 unfair to

00:48:15.300 accuse it

00:48:16.400 of being

00:48:16.720 a conservative

00:48:17.120 party

00:48:17.400 and indeed

00:48:17.740 since

00:48:18.080 especially

00:48:18.940 since David

00:48:19.500 Cameron

00:48:19.860 explicitly

00:48:20.400 took it

00:48:20.880 over

00:48:21.160 and turned

00:48:21.920 it into

00:48:22.160 a Blairite

00:48:22.740 formation

00:48:24.440 that he

00:48:24.720 didn't

00:48:24.900 understand

00:48:25.400 Blairism

00:48:25.800 he knew

00:48:26.200 what he

00:48:26.440 had to

00:48:26.740 do

00:48:27.040 since then

00:48:28.620 anybody

00:48:29.840 who's

00:48:30.060 voted

00:48:30.240 conservative

00:48:30.640 has got

00:48:31.060 what they

00:48:31.380 deserved

00:48:31.880 people who

00:48:32.780 say

00:48:32.960 well

00:48:33.220 I voted

00:48:33.560 conservative

00:48:34.020 in

00:48:34.420 whenever

00:48:35.020 the last

00:48:35.360 election

00:48:35.680 was

00:48:35.960 I've

00:48:36.620 lost

00:48:36.820 count

00:48:37.080 of

00:48:37.180 them

00:48:37.340 and I

00:48:38.240 didn't

00:48:38.680 get a

00:48:38.900 conservative

00:48:39.220 government

00:48:39.540 I said

00:48:39.940 well what

00:48:40.320 did you

00:48:40.540 expect

00:48:41.040 there isn't

00:48:44.280 a conservative

00:48:44.840 to be seen

00:48:45.480 anywhere near the

00:48:45.980 front of the

00:48:46.280 party

00:48:46.740 or any

00:48:47.500 conservative

00:48:47.920 sentiment

00:48:48.340 to be found

00:48:48.820 in

00:48:49.480 Tory

00:48:49.880 manifestos

00:48:50.440 why would

00:48:51.080 you expect

00:48:51.580 that

00:48:51.880 especially

00:48:52.920 after you

00:48:53.420 voted

00:48:53.700 to

00:48:54.220 ratify

00:48:55.020 David

00:48:55.380 Cameron's

00:48:56.300 Blairite

00:48:56.780 takeover

00:48:57.180 of the

00:48:57.340 Conservative

00:48:57.640 Party

00:48:57.880 in 2010

00:48:58.380 you've

00:48:59.240 got what

00:48:59.540 you asked

00:48:59.900 for

00:49:00.100 so now

00:49:01.020 to turn

00:49:01.480 around

00:49:01.760 in 2024

00:49:02.860 and say

00:49:03.400 oh gosh

00:49:04.340 the Tories

00:49:04.680 aren't very

00:49:05.060 conservative

00:49:05.460 what's wrong

00:49:06.020 with you

00:49:06.500 presumably

00:49:08.620 people who

00:49:08.980 wander around

00:49:09.460 in the rain

00:49:10.000 for three

00:49:10.920 quarters of

00:49:11.240 an hour

00:49:11.420 and after

00:49:11.880 they become

00:49:12.300 soaking wet

00:49:12.920 start complaining

00:49:14.600 about the

00:49:14.860 weather forecast

00:49:15.640 it's just

00:49:17.280 people don't

00:49:18.100 think about

00:49:18.680 politics

00:49:19.040 I can't

00:49:20.400 help them

00:49:20.760 either

00:49:21.000 I try

00:49:21.660 and they

00:49:22.140 get angry

00:49:23.120 and call me

00:49:23.500 a contrarian

00:49:24.080 well

00:49:25.300 I certainly

00:49:25.920 didn't get

00:49:26.340 angry

00:49:26.600 I just

00:49:26.940 called you

00:49:27.280 a contrarian

00:49:27.740 to wind

00:49:28.120 you up

00:49:28.400 which has

00:49:28.720 worked out

00:49:29.120 very well

00:49:29.500 because we've

00:49:29.840 had a great

00:49:30.220 conversation

00:49:30.760 but the

00:49:31.960 thing that

00:49:32.720 I guess

00:49:34.260 this boils

00:49:34.940 down to

00:49:35.360 is the

00:49:35.580 Peter Hitchens

00:49:36.000 recommendation

00:49:36.560 is you should

00:49:37.240 vote against

00:49:37.740 Labour

00:49:38.040 which most

00:49:38.840 of the time

00:49:39.180 will mean

00:49:39.440 voting for

00:49:39.980 the Conservative

00:49:40.500 Party

00:49:40.940 while knowing

00:49:41.760 you're voting

00:49:42.320 for simply

00:49:43.060 a slightly

00:49:43.500 less

00:49:43.760 Blairite

00:49:44.200 version

00:49:44.500 of the

00:49:44.740 same

00:49:44.900 thing

00:49:45.080 not

00:49:45.860 I don't

00:49:46.380 think so

00:49:46.680 I think

00:49:46.960 this is

00:49:47.260 a

00:49:47.440 I think

00:49:47.780 the

00:49:48.560 Starmer

00:49:49.060 government

00:49:49.380 will be

00:49:49.640 a major

00:49:50.180 step

00:49:50.640 previous

00:49:51.860 since

00:49:52.540 really

00:49:53.020 the

00:49:53.520 washed

00:49:54.040 out

00:49:54.360 old

00:49:54.780 Gordon

00:49:55.060 Brown

00:49:55.320 government

00:49:55.700 that

00:49:56.220 tried

00:49:57.060 to stay

00:49:57.720 in office

00:49:58.000 in 2010

00:49:59.800 to which

00:50:00.220 I would have

00:50:00.540 no objection

00:50:01.040 in many ways

00:50:01.580 Gordon Brown

00:50:01.940 was to the

00:50:02.260 right of

00:50:02.540 David Cameron

00:50:03.060 particularly

00:50:03.760 on European

00:50:04.220 matters

00:50:04.620 I think

00:50:04.960 and the

00:50:05.260 European

00:50:05.680 currency

00:50:06.200 he was

00:50:07.760 exhausted

00:50:08.520 and

00:50:09.300 played out

00:50:10.200 and

00:50:10.540 run out

00:50:11.960 of ideas

00:50:12.400 and to have

00:50:12.960 left him

00:50:13.320 in office

00:50:13.720 in 2010

00:50:14.240 wouldn't have

00:50:14.660 been a

00:50:14.880 big problem

00:50:15.280 the other

00:50:16.400 leaders

00:50:17.160 that Labour

00:50:17.560 have groped

00:50:18.940 for in

00:50:19.240 the intervening

00:50:19.640 period

00:50:20.020 have not

00:50:20.820 really been

00:50:21.240 convincing

00:50:21.700 or likely

00:50:22.160 winners

00:50:22.520 Starmer is

00:50:23.760 the first

00:50:24.160 real attempt

00:50:24.800 to bring

00:50:25.500 together

00:50:26.100 the full

00:50:28.000 force

00:50:28.880 of Blairism

00:50:30.120 again

00:50:30.660 politics

00:50:31.160 and you'll

00:50:31.640 note that

00:50:32.040 it's attracted

00:50:32.560 the support

00:50:33.180 and help

00:50:33.680 of prominent

00:50:34.680 veterans

00:50:35.180 of the

00:50:35.800 Blair

00:50:36.900 revolution

00:50:37.340 in 97

00:50:37.800 it's

00:50:39.340 much

00:50:39.760 much

00:50:40.120 more powerful

00:50:40.780 thing

00:50:41.240 than the

00:50:42.020 Tories

00:50:42.280 faced

00:50:42.820 for a

00:50:43.260 very long

00:50:43.640 time

00:50:43.840 or indeed

00:50:44.120 the country

00:50:44.580 has faced

00:50:45.020 and it's

00:50:46.280 not just

00:50:46.720 a minor

00:50:47.100 difference

00:50:47.660 the Tories

00:50:48.680 have been

00:50:49.040 caretaking

00:50:49.640 Blairism

00:50:50.220 since 2010

00:50:51.580 as I say

00:50:52.780 without

00:50:52.960 understanding

00:50:53.580 it and

00:50:53.900 therefore

00:50:54.100 without having

00:50:54.540 the initiative

00:50:55.360 to pursue

00:50:56.180 it

00:50:56.440 and sometimes

00:50:57.020 even

00:50:57.520 very slightly

00:50:58.500 restraining

00:50:59.900 and diminishing

00:51:02.140 it

00:51:02.300 nothing like

00:51:02.980 as much

00:51:03.380 as they

00:51:04.580 should have

00:51:04.840 done

00:51:05.140 but

00:51:06.240 but

00:51:06.260 what

00:51:07.280 a

00:51:07.400 Starmer

00:51:07.720 government

00:51:08.000 would do

00:51:08.280 would be

00:51:08.540 to

00:51:08.920 bring

00:51:11.860 the full

00:51:12.520 force

00:51:13.020 of

00:51:13.440 will

00:51:14.020 and

00:51:14.180 enthusiasm

00:51:14.720 and

00:51:15.420 dogma

00:51:15.880 and power

00:51:16.340 and if

00:51:17.720 what we're told

00:51:18.680 is true

00:51:19.140 a very big

00:51:20.200 and unassailable

00:51:20.780 majority

00:51:21.300 back into

00:51:23.020 the Blairite

00:51:24.400 locomotive

00:51:24.920 and it would

00:51:26.380 be capable

00:51:26.860 of pulling

00:51:28.140 immense loads

00:51:28.840 and turning

00:51:29.360 immense speeds

00:51:30.100 and that

00:51:30.580 which would

00:51:30.840 make

00:51:31.060 if people

00:51:32.060 don't like

00:51:32.580 Conservative

00:51:32.980 government

00:51:33.280 to say

00:51:33.760 then they

00:51:34.620 really won't

00:51:35.240 like

00:51:35.580 Starmer

00:51:36.040 and what

00:51:38.580 do you think

00:51:39.000 Starmer's stance

00:51:39.940 is going to be

00:51:40.520 on immigration

00:51:41.060 because he's

00:51:42.080 alluded to the

00:51:43.420 fact that he

00:51:43.880 wants to tackle

00:51:44.680 illegal immigration

00:51:45.620 or do you

00:51:47.120 think it's

00:51:47.520 going to be

00:51:47.760 very much

00:51:48.240 an open

00:51:48.700 border policy

00:51:49.500 it's a

00:51:50.500 so

00:51:50.600 I think

00:51:51.020 it's a

00:51:51.680 so

00:51:51.800 which is

00:51:52.080 in some

00:51:52.420 ways

00:51:52.560 largely over

00:51:53.280 mass

00:51:53.920 immigration

00:51:54.280 has happened

00:51:54.920 in this

00:51:55.280 country

00:51:55.540 and

00:51:56.020 irreversibly

00:51:57.060 and a lot

00:51:57.520 of the

00:51:57.740 problems

00:51:57.980 which we face

00:51:58.520 now are

00:51:59.420 going to

00:51:59.620 have to

00:51:59.920 be with

00:52:00.340 how civilized

00:52:01.200 people

00:52:01.460 we cope

00:52:01.820 with it

00:52:02.120 I don't

00:52:03.480 think he

00:52:03.780 has any

00:52:04.440 particular

00:52:05.420 policy

00:52:05.820 and I

00:52:06.100 think

00:52:06.260 any

00:52:06.600 attempts

00:52:07.160 to get

00:52:07.580 him

00:52:07.740 to

00:52:08.100 set

00:52:09.220 one

00:52:09.420 out

00:52:09.660 have

00:52:09.880 failed

00:52:10.260 because

00:52:11.380 he

00:52:11.580 doesn't

00:52:12.380 I don't

00:52:13.620 think he

00:52:13.900 has

00:52:14.160 in his

00:52:14.720 deep

00:52:15.640 heart's

00:52:16.600 core

00:52:17.060 any

00:52:18.220 particular

00:52:18.920 objection

00:52:19.360 to

00:52:19.600 large

00:52:19.800 scale

00:52:20.020 immigration

00:52:20.460 he

00:52:21.060 probably

00:52:21.560 realizes

00:52:22.100 as a

00:52:22.760 political

00:52:23.640 issue

00:52:24.180 is

00:52:25.260 possibly

00:52:26.340 one of

00:52:26.740 the

00:52:27.220 things

00:52:27.420 most

00:52:27.700 dangerous

00:52:28.080 to his

00:52:28.320 party

00:52:28.520 in the

00:52:28.720 long term

00:52:29.160 well I

00:52:30.080 don't think

00:52:30.280 he really

00:52:30.500 has one

00:52:31.000 when he

00:52:31.780 talks about

00:52:32.460 and Starmer

00:52:33.180 it's been

00:52:34.060 said by

00:52:34.940 clever people

00:52:35.520 not by me

00:52:36.340 but it's

00:52:36.680 true

00:52:37.060 that Starmer

00:52:38.160 approaches

00:52:38.680 every problem

00:52:39.540 as a lawyer

00:52:40.060 he tries to

00:52:40.680 prosecute it

00:52:41.320 out of existence

00:52:41.900 and when he

00:52:42.860 makes these

00:52:43.240 speeches

00:52:43.520 he's going to

00:52:44.000 have these

00:52:44.260 special squads

00:52:45.080 and prosecutors

00:52:45.560 he's going to

00:52:46.040 catch the

00:52:46.480 people

00:52:46.800 I think he

00:52:47.980 genuinely

00:52:48.380 believes

00:52:49.120 that he can

00:52:50.120 do something

00:52:50.500 by that

00:52:50.860 method

00:52:51.260 but I don't

00:52:52.400 think he has

00:52:52.840 any profound

00:52:53.400 idea because

00:52:54.000 I don't think

00:52:54.700 he really

00:52:56.580 knows what

00:52:57.340 to do

00:52:57.760 any more

00:52:58.760 than the

00:52:59.000 Tories

00:52:59.320 have known

00:52:59.840 what to

00:53:00.160 do

00:53:00.420 well Peter

00:53:01.900 there you

00:53:02.240 go

00:53:02.440 it's a

00:53:02.900 pleasure

00:53:03.100 having you

00:53:03.520 back on

00:53:03.980 to as I

00:53:04.680 say cheer

00:53:05.060 everybody up

00:53:05.720 right before

00:53:06.560 the election

00:53:07.000 well I like

00:53:07.660 to feel

00:53:08.120 and I bring

00:53:08.780 happiness

00:53:09.260 every home

00:53:11.520 in a manner

00:53:14.300 of speaking

00:53:14.860 the key to

00:53:16.580 happiness

00:53:16.940 is pessimism

00:53:17.680 optimism is

00:53:19.620 absolutely

00:53:21.040 the road

00:53:21.580 to misery

00:53:21.980 Peter

00:53:23.920 Hitchens

00:53:24.220 the last

00:53:25.040 question

00:53:25.340 before we

00:53:25.760 go to

00:53:26.160 locals

00:53:26.520 and ask

00:53:26.960 you

00:53:27.080 questions

00:53:27.460 from our

00:53:27.960 audience

00:53:28.320 last

00:53:28.920 question

00:53:29.220 we always

00:53:29.540 ask in

00:53:29.880 the main

00:53:30.120 section

00:53:30.420 is

00:53:30.680 what's

00:53:31.280 the one

00:53:31.540 thing

00:53:31.720 we're not

00:53:32.160 talking

00:53:32.520 about

00:53:32.800 that we

00:53:33.080 really

00:53:33.260 should

00:53:33.440 be

00:53:33.660 actually

00:53:35.400 probably

00:53:36.100 the

00:53:37.120 standing

00:53:38.400 of this

00:53:38.900 country

00:53:39.200 and the

00:53:39.480 world

00:53:39.760 our

00:53:41.000 fantasy

00:53:41.880 that we

00:53:42.380 are still

00:53:42.740 a great

00:53:43.060 power

00:53:43.400 our

00:53:44.540 fantasy

00:53:44.840 that we're

00:53:45.160 still very

00:53:45.540 rich

00:53:45.860 and these

00:53:46.960 two

00:53:47.280 fantasies

00:53:47.800 prevent us

00:53:48.500 from actually

00:53:49.360 being

00:53:49.860 in my view

00:53:50.660 a far

00:53:51.420 more

00:53:51.600 prosperous

00:53:51.980 and far

00:53:52.420 happier

00:53:52.700 society

00:53:53.120 because we

00:53:53.440 constantly

00:53:53.820 strain

00:53:54.300 to be

00:53:55.200 what we

00:53:55.480 once

00:53:55.760 definitely

00:53:56.220 were

00:53:56.580 and are

00:53:57.400 no longer

00:53:57.880 and by

00:53:59.260 straining to

00:53:59.800 do that

00:54:00.180 by continuing

00:54:01.400 to make

00:54:02.640 these pretenses

00:54:03.220 of being

00:54:03.580 a great

00:54:03.900 power

00:54:04.200 we

00:54:05.420 fail

00:54:07.280 to discuss

00:54:08.420 how in

00:54:08.840 fact we

00:54:09.240 could be

00:54:09.780 a smaller

00:54:11.480 happier

00:54:12.300 more prosperous

00:54:13.320 more contented

00:54:14.280 and more

00:54:14.540 successful

00:54:14.840 country

00:54:15.200 I wish we

00:54:16.120 could discuss

00:54:16.580 that

00:54:16.860 but it seems

00:54:18.200 to be largely

00:54:18.640 undiscussable

00:54:19.520 Peter Hitchens

00:54:20.540 thank you very

00:54:21.020 much

00:54:21.200 follow us

00:54:21.880 over to

00:54:22.200 locals

00:54:22.480 where we

00:54:22.820 ask Peter

00:54:23.240 your questions

00:54:23.940 if we want

00:54:26.400 to change

00:54:26.920 how will we

00:54:27.760 get that

00:54:28.200 by continuing

00:54:28.840 to vote

00:54:29.320 for one of

00:54:29.760 the two

00:54:30.040 parties

00:54:30.440 when neither

00:54:31.300 of them

00:54:31.640 have the

00:54:31.980 policies

00:54:32.320 we actually

00:54:32.880 want

00:54:33.260 up

00:54:34.820 tell

00:54:36.200 for one to

00:54:40.700 or

00:54:41.400 have a

00:54:41.500 like

00:54:41.940 a

00:54:42.360 bomb

00:54:42.860 to be

TRIGGERnometry - July 03, 2024

Why I'm Voting Against Labour - Peter Hitchens

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