TRIGGERnometry - Why Men & Boys Are Struggling and No One Cares - Dr Warren Farrell

00:00:00.000 I have no problem with society opening up the option of more feminine behavior on the part of 1.00

00:00:09.520 men, as well as having opened up the option of more masculine behavior on the part of women. 0.99

00:00:17.240 But we're not just doing that. We're making the feminine behavior as the superior behavior 1.00

00:00:23.660 and the masculine behavior as the toxic masculinity. 0.99

00:00:30.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:37.600 I'm Constantine Kishan.

00:00:38.840 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:00:44.460 Our brilliant guest today is a political scientist, an activist, and a prolific author,

00:00:49.240 including of his latest book, The Boy Crisis. Dr. Warren Farrell, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:53.860 Thank you. I'm looking forward to being with you both.

00:00:55.960 It's such a pleasure to have you on the show. We're going to talk about some subjects that are

00:00:59.800 fairly controversial in our society at the moment and fairly difficult to discuss. So I think

00:01:04.120 before we get into them, it's important for people to understand your background because

00:01:08.480 you were actually one of the first men to be involved with the women's movement all the way

00:01:12.740 back when. And it's been quite a radical journey for you since. So talk to us a little bit about

00:01:18.080 your life story. How are you, where you are? What's been the journey that brings you to be

00:01:22.360 here talking to us about the boy crisis? Sure. I guess it was about 1969. I was in New York

00:01:29.140 doing my doctorate at NYU. And the women's movement surfaced, and I took an interest in it.

00:01:35.480 And I was teaching also at Rutgers at that time, Rutgers University in New Jersey. And the students,

00:01:41.320 when I was talking about the women's movement, they were really saying, you know, you have fire

00:01:44.980 in your belly, Warren, when you're talking about the women's movement. And they said, well, what

00:01:49.900 are you doing your dissertation on? And I said what it was. And they said, you should think about

00:01:53.680 changing it to something on the politics of the women's movement, because my doctorate was in

00:01:58.100 political science. And so they, I ended up convincing my, my, the people, the, my doctoral

00:02:07.420 committee was very reluctant. They said, you know, oh no, this is, you know, this is just a fad. It's

00:02:13.680 going to go away very soon. And I said, no, I disagree with that. I think that it's, that there's

00:02:18.820 an evolutionary shift happening. And the shift is that, you know, up until this point in history,

00:02:23.340 in most developed nations, we were concerned with survival. And when you're concerned with

00:02:28.800 survival, you have to have very strict roles to be able to do whatever helps your generation

00:02:35.420 survive. Women's role is raise children, men's role is raise money. And so I think that that's 1.00

00:02:41.100 going to become much more flexible for both sexes. And they sort of rolled their eyes. But at that

00:02:46.300 point, I had been also appointed to be assistant to the president of NYU. So I was in some ways

00:02:52.540 is their boss at that point as a student. And so they sort of backed off and said, and let me do

00:02:59.760 my thing. And, and that got me immersed in the women's movement. And, and then I, as part of my

00:03:06.800 research, I joined now the National Organization for Women in New York City. That led, long story

00:03:12.860 short, to my being elected to the board of directors of the National Organization for Women in New York

00:03:17.500 City. And that led to my speaking around the world on women's issues. And that lasted a few years,

00:03:27.180 a number of years, about half a decade. But then in the mid-70s, early mid-70s, I began to see that

00:03:35.100 there were a lot of divorces. And I began to see the first bit of research that was suggesting that

00:03:40.500 children who did not have fathers, a lot of father involvement after divorce, were not doing very

00:03:47.120 well. And so I brought this up to the board of now. And they responded, well, you know, Warren,

00:03:53.740 women who are joined now, they want the option of being with their children full time or not, 0.70

00:04:00.240 if they divorce, and they want the option to divorce and the option of being with their

00:04:03.400 children full time if they divorce. And so I said, well, but don't you care whether or not

00:04:10.940 it's the best for the children? And, and they said, listen, you know, we do care that it's

00:04:15.780 best for the children. However, there's a bigger issue here, which is that we have lots of fish to

00:04:25.900 fry. It's not just custody issues. And we have equal pay issues and sports issues and so on.

00:04:31.980 And so we can't afford to lose membership. And so I'm saying I can understand this politically,

00:04:36.820 but to sacrifice our children because it's best politically is not a good trade-off from my

00:04:44.180 perspective. And I said, you know, women, I'm 100% in favor of women having the option to have

00:04:50.020 children or not have children, of course. But once a woman chooses to have a child, that's like me 1.00

00:04:57.220 choosing to take on a job. I make a commitment to that job. I show up every day. And if I make

00:05:02.820 a commitment to have a child, I put the child before me. And if it looks like the child does 0.71

00:05:08.120 best when there's fathers and mothers both involved, then I have to pay attention to what

00:05:13.220 is best for that child and not what is best for me, primarily, unless it's so not best for me,

00:05:20.220 so to speak, that that would end up hurting the child. And so we went back and forth on this,

00:05:27.640 but I could see that, you know, I had said that, you know, the research wasn't thorough at that

00:05:33.120 point, because, you know, in order to find out whether something's best for the child, you have

00:05:37.240 to not only look at one point in history, you have to wait for the child to get to be 15, 20,

00:05:42.220 25, 30 to see how that child longitudinally does well or poorly. And so I acknowledged that that

00:05:48.900 was not something we had enough longitudinal data to prove one way or the other. And they sort of

00:05:54.220 basically said, well, you know, Warren, we thought you were really a big supporter of us. And, you

00:06:00.480 know, you realize that all over the world, the reasons you're speaking all over the world and

00:06:04.520 on all these TV shows and, you know, and getting famous is because, you know, is the recommendations

00:06:09.920 of us. And so why don't you continue doing your research? You acknowledge yourself that, you know,

00:06:15.580 that it's, you don't have enough longitudinal data. Well, I can see the handwriting on the

00:06:20.040 wall was basically, you know, it's going to be the end of my career, the, you know, the income I was

00:06:27.380 producing, et cetera, et cetera, if I chose to, you know, just follow the research without regard

00:06:32.720 to the politics. And, but I did choose to just follow the research. And, but increasingly the

00:06:39.440 research to a much greater degree than I would have even predicted at the time, show that children

00:06:44.260 who were growing up with, that were dad deprived, those children were doing worse in all countries

00:06:52.340 where there were significant percentages of children that were being raised without their

00:06:58.680 dads. The UK, the United States, to a slightly lesser degree, Germany, all of this was being, 0.84

00:07:05.880 you know it became very clear so I did start speaking up about that and you know everything

00:07:11.120 that you know that was part of my infrastructure for producing income and every article I used to

00:07:17.500 write for the New York Times used to be published and once I started to explain boys and men's

00:07:22.540 positions they were not published anymore for the next 29 articles and you know and the all the TV

00:07:29.300 shows, the operas and so on that I would be on. They stopped calling me, et cetera. And so it was,

00:07:37.260 you know, I went from doing extremely well financially to, you know, doing much more

00:07:42.000 marginally. But fortunately, I'm a reasonably decent business person and was able to invest

00:07:46.880 the money I had made during the women's movement in order to support myself being able to share

00:07:51.020 a more full story of what was happening with boys and men.

00:07:54.480 And in your book, you detail in excruciating detail some of the things that are happening and have happened since those days, particularly, obviously, to boys and men.

00:08:06.380 For people who haven't yet read the book, I'm sure lots of people will go out and buy it after this interview, but for people who haven't read it, in a nutshell, what is the boy crisis?

00:08:15.020 What is it that is happening to boys and men in our society, in your view?

00:08:19.340 In all 53 of the largest developed nations, boys are falling behind girls in every single

00:08:27.000 academic subject, but especially in reading and writing, and reading and writing are the

00:08:31.520 two biggest predictors of success or failure.

00:08:34.540 And so I started looking at why that was the case, and I'll get back to that in a moment,

00:08:40.160 but the key word is developed nations.

00:08:43.480 The second thing I was noticing is that boys in all the developed nations were having,

00:08:49.900 they were having mental health problems.

00:08:52.400 They were, so when boys and girls, for example, are nine years of age, they're very rarely

00:08:57.200 likely to commit suicide.

00:08:59.360 But when they do commit suicide, it's about equally.

00:09:03.560 Between the ages of 10 and 14, boys commit suicide at twice the rate of girls.

00:09:08.880 between the ages of 15 and 19 it's four times the rate between the ages of 20 and 24 it is

00:09:16.680 five times the rate of girls and so very few people know that and or ask the question why

00:09:24.460 is that the case on the mental health level boys are far more likely to get in feels depressed

00:09:32.480 to feel that they have no option but to get involved with being addicted to drugs

00:09:39.120 or being addicted to opioids, about the opioid deaths for boys versus girls is about four to one

00:09:44.900 in the United States, about five to one in Canada. Boys are far more likely to be addicted to porn,

00:09:50.780 be addicted to video games. Video game involvement is actually healthy up to a point,

00:09:57.540 but the point to which men do it, males are more likely to do it, especially certain types of males.

00:10:02.480 that it becomes addictive, that it becomes destructive. And so that's just the mental

00:10:09.220 health. The physical health problems very manifest. Boys are far more likely to be obese.

00:10:14.920 They're more likely to not attend school fully. They're more likely to have to drop out. Their

00:10:20.580 grades are worse. They have to drop out of high school to a much greater degree than girls do. 1.00

00:10:25.480 Boys who drop out of high school are far less likely to be employed in their 20s.

00:10:29.560 boys who aren't employed are more likely to live with their parents boys are 66 percent more likely

00:10:35.800 in the united states to live with their parents between the ages of 25 and 31 and the average

00:10:41.500 girl that i know who you know goes out looking for a guy is not looking at unemployment lines 0.97

00:10:46.340 or you know and searching out parents basements for boys to boys to have children with

00:10:54.660 And so these boys are feeling not only like they're losers living with their parents, but they're also feeling like they're deprived of sexual intimacy. 0.69

00:11:07.040 And they feel like if they reach out, they're always going to be rejected. 0.96

00:11:10.680 That often makes them depressed.

00:11:12.400 That often makes them get into porn because porn is access to a variety of attractive women without fear of rejection at a price that they can afford. 1.00

00:11:20.920 And since they're not earning money, that's the price they can afford.

00:11:24.080 so they get into porn but the problem with one of the problems with porn aside from it objectifying

00:11:28.340 women is that it also it uses men because it gets men addicted to beautiful women's bodies 1.00

00:11:36.560 first it's just the body that he sees it gets him excited but after he's seen a few hundred bodies

00:11:43.340 he needs to move to some type of sexual behavior and then more advanced sexual behavior or more

00:11:49.140 you know challenging sexual behavior like like watching a guy come in a woman's face and then

00:11:55.540 he gets finally he gets to meet a real life woman and he's so addicted to what porn has

00:12:01.760 addicted him to in order to keep his excitement up that the woman feels like she's a porn object 1.00

00:12:09.220 and she feels and so she and because she is a porn object and so she withdraws from him which 0.83

00:12:15.040 only reinforces his feelings of being sexually rejected and therefore addicts him more to the 0.88

00:12:21.580 porn. So there's so many vicious cycles like this that I talk about in the Boy Crisis book

00:12:27.320 that boys are involved with. And so obviously this is the academic health, the academic lack

00:12:36.240 of academic success leads to a lack of economic success. Lack of economic success means that

00:12:42.320 girls aren't interested in you, leads to depression, leads to sometimes suicide, leads to 1.00

00:12:47.760 boys acting out. So, you know, when I started researching the mass shooters who were school

00:12:54.820 shooters, so for example, in the United States in the 21st century, there are only five school

00:13:01.160 shooters who have killed more than 10 people, but whose family backgrounds we know of, and all five

00:13:07.140 of them, 100%, are dad-deprived. The ISIS recruits in the United States are almost all

00:13:15.880 dad-deprived children, including girls. The ISIS recruits, smaller percentage of ISIS recruits who

00:13:21.220 are girls. And so the prisoners in the United States are 93% men. But of those 93% men,

00:13:29.520 about 90% are dad-deprived. And I base this on my research going around from prison to prison

00:13:35.340 in California when I ran for governor of California and asking prisoners how many had

00:13:41.800 involved dads when they were growing up. And about 10% did, but the other 90% did not.

00:13:49.900 And so on and on. And so I began to look at why were boys having so many problems? And it really

00:13:56.300 wasn't all boys that were having problems. It was the percentage of boys who were dad-deprived.

00:14:03.760 they were the ones that were having problems and so I found out that the boy crisis resides

00:14:10.040 where dads do not reside so that was the beginning of my exploration of what you know what is the

00:14:17.260 connection between dad deprivation and the boy crisis you know why what's what is the importance

00:14:23.320 of dads what and then I found that dad's parent very differently than mom's parent not all dads

00:14:30.560 And, you know, and I want to make it clear also that many children grow up with single

00:14:35.080 mothers who are, I mean, almost all single mothers that I know of are devoted to their

00:14:39.720 children and they're overwhelmed in the work that they do and they care enormously.

00:14:44.920 And many children grow up with single moms that do do well, boys as well.

00:14:50.900 But where you see the boys who don't do well, the great majority of those are deprived of

00:14:58.200 their fathers. And so I started asking the question, you know, what is their dads do that

00:15:03.820 moms, that is different from what moms do? And that's what really fascinated me about the 0.79

00:15:10.340 differences between dad-style parenting and mom-style parenting. And my findings in the

00:15:16.140 boy crisis that made me, where I was able to report that the children who do the best by a

00:15:22.120 long shot, are boys and girls who have what I call checks and balance parenting. They have two

00:15:29.520 parents that are actively involved, even if they're divorced. They have two parents that

00:15:33.940 are actively involved about 50% of the time. They live close to each other. They communicate well

00:15:39.660 with each other. They don't badmouth each other. And if the children who are of divorce have those

00:15:45.240 four must-dos, 50% time with each parent, parents that live close to each other, parents that are

00:15:52.440 involved with communication and counselling, so that they get on the same page with each other

00:15:56.840 and see each other's best intent, and children that do not hear any bad-mouthing from mother

00:16:02.140 to father or father to mother. Those are the children I found of divorce that do the best,

00:16:08.060 and the rest of them that do the best are ones that are in intact families.

00:16:12.480 Warren, we're having this conversation, and you're telling me all these things. Now,

00:16:17.620 I used to be a teacher. I was a teacher for 12 years. But to me, this seems like common sense.

00:16:23.760 Everybody would listen to us, would go, that makes absolute sense, of course. But why is it taboo?

00:16:30.160 Why is it taboo to suddenly say that children need fathers? That if you come from a broken home,

00:16:36.700 you're going to do less well. Your chances are that you're not going to be as successful. You're

00:16:40.600 not going to stay in education as long. Your grades aren't going to be as good. Your life

00:16:44.900 outcomes aren't going to be as positive. Why is that suddenly become a taboo thing to say?

00:16:50.740 Because it reduces the, well, I'll give you an example. In both the last two major elections,

00:16:58.700 I went out to Iowa where the presidential candidates are beginning to try to make their

00:17:04.160 mark. And I interviewed at one point all Republicans and another point all Democrats.

00:17:10.600 and the Republicans tended to agree with me on this issue, and they said, yeah, this only makes,

00:17:16.220 as you said, common sense. And I was able to talk to Andrew Yang, who was a leading candidate at

00:17:22.600 that time, and John Hickenlooper, who was a candidate at that time as well, who is now a

00:17:26.920 U.S. Senator. And after I talked with Andrew Yang, who really understood the importance of fathers,

00:17:32.920 the importance of families, and the fact that boys were in crisis, the campaign manager overheard me.

00:17:40.600 And, and Andrew Yang was, she could see Andrew Yang was really excited. And the campaign manager pulls me aside and says, you know, Dr. Farrell, we have a problem here because if, if, if Andrew Yang speaks up about these boys issues, that's going to make many of our feminist followers feels, feel like he's pro male and anti female.

00:18:07.420 and if he's and we're to lose a lot of our feminist base and it's also it's going to make 1.00

00:18:12.200 a lot of single mothers feel like they're not adequate and that's going to lose a single 1.00

00:18:17.120 mother base and our single mother base is largely a democratic base and um and our um and and the

00:18:24.480 and the women who um want to raise children um by themselves that's they're largely a democratic 0.96

00:18:31.240 base and the feminists will turn against us if we start losing our feminist base there's no way 1.00

00:18:36.380 were going to win the Democratic nomination. And after that, Andrew Yang did not speak up.

00:18:43.280 And I had the same experience with John Hickenlooper, very understanding, very compassionate,

00:18:47.800 wonderful man, really understood these issues very well and had a good hour-long interview

00:18:54.020 with him, educating him about this. But the same reaction from the campaign manager.

00:19:01.940 Whereas I went to the White House under the Trump administration to brief them on the

00:19:06.600 boy crisis book, and there's 14 people sitting around, not just from the White House, but

00:19:11.760 also from HHS, Health and Human Services, also from the Department of Justice, and they're

00:19:17.100 all going, you know, my God, you know, on some level, everything you're saying is obvious.

00:19:22.440 On another level, you're giving us precise data as to understand why we understood that

00:19:28.720 fathers were important, but we didn't understand what the value of roughhousing was, for example.

00:19:35.260 And we would never have suggested that the value of roughhousing among its values was postponed

00:19:42.100 gratification. Among the values of postponed gratification is that it's postponed gratification

00:19:47.620 is the biggest predictor of success or failure. And we never would have predicted that roughhousing

00:19:52.900 was a predictor of empathy and and when you're telling us why and how it's a predictor of empathy

00:19:59.560 all that makes sense but that's you know we couldn't no man that we know says to his wife

00:20:06.600 you know I'd like to rough house with the children so it'll help them be more empathetic

00:20:11.840 the connection is counterintuitive and this is what this is what we're learning from you and so

00:20:17.940 So it was it was these types of seven major differences and a number of minor differences between dad style parenting and mom style parenting that really were the eye openers that I think I was able to find when I researched the boy crisis book as to know exactly what the dynamics were that lead to so many children doing so much better when they have both dad style parenting and mom style parenting in their life.

00:20:43.700 Warren it seems to me that we don't take this crisis seriously enough and I'll give you an

00:20:50.020 example a few weeks ago I was reading about education results in the UK and they were saying

00:20:57.720 what you were saying girls far outperform boys and the Times in the UK wrote this quasi jokey

00:21:05.040 piece about how maybe girls were just smarter and they couldn't have done that the other way around 1.00

00:21:12.200 Because if they did that the other way around.

00:21:13.440 I would love to see them try.

00:21:16.780 Maybe men are just smarter. 0.99

00:21:18.660 That would make a great time.

00:21:20.020 Yes, exactly.

00:21:21.400 Maybe men have achieved more and earned more money 0.85

00:21:24.940 because even if they're not intellectually smarter,

00:21:27.860 they know how to balance all of the parameters of life

00:21:32.440 better than women do. 1.00

00:21:33.920 Can you imagine a headline like that?

00:21:36.980 But my question is,

00:21:38.920 Why is that acceptable to do that? And, you know, we talk about, you know, male mental health, you know, suicide rates going through the roof, you know, more and more men feeling displaced from society, feeling angry, the rise of the incel culture. 1.00

00:21:56.520 But yet it's acceptable to write a piece about that. I don't get it.

00:22:00.360 Here's why. And this is not an easy answer to hear. And it's going to take us deep.

00:22:06.080 And the brief reason, the headline reason, is that the reason we males exist as humans and as animals, all the way from insects to human beings, is we exist to be willing to die to protect women.

00:22:26.220 The essence of masculinity is the preparation for disposability.

00:22:30.520 in every war men were told you will be a real man if you um if you know in the united states

00:22:40.480 we said uncle sam needs you boys you know grew up and they saw their you know the uncle joe

00:22:47.160 with a marine uniform on and everybody talked about uncle joe as a hero who died when he was

00:22:52.820 17 or 18 in world war one and he um you know and when the boy is being criticized by his mother

00:23:00.200 his father and mocked by other kids at school, he says, all right, there's a way I can be a hero.

00:23:05.540 And that way that he can be a hero is to be willing to be disposable in that generation's war

00:23:11.840 and to think that he will be a hero, that he will be respected. And he's disposable

00:23:18.200 in order to be able to save all the women in the society and the children and other males that

00:23:27.280 aren't in in that war or weren't courageous enough to join that war and if he's if it's not wartime

00:23:33.540 he's learns that he also needs to be um historically um in the last in previous generations

00:23:39.420 he needed to learn that he learned that he needed to be the primary breadwinner that he needed to

00:23:44.540 earn money and so he learned to climb the ladder of um of success and not to ask himself what do

00:23:54.180 should I do what I want to do what do I want to do but what do I need to do to earn more money

00:24:02.080 when I was when it was apparent when I was in high school that I might be a decent writer

00:24:07.600 my my father you know took me aside and said Warren you are a good writer but you know

00:24:13.820 only about one out of a hundred you know writers even get a publisher and if you can't find a

00:24:19.760 publisher, you'll never find a wife, at least not a good wife, not one that's not worthy of you.

00:24:24.780 And so you've got to drop this little dream, Warren, of being a writer. And even after I

00:24:31.360 published my first book and got a very good advance for it, he said, that's right. You got

00:24:36.080 a good advance. You lucked out. But supporting a family is not about lucking out once and then

00:24:44.180 taking a chance with your family. After that, it's about doing what you need to do, Warren.

00:24:48.800 is not doing what you want to do. So get out of your mind the focus on doing what you want to do

00:24:55.140 or what you're, quote, gifted at. Do what you need to do, which is raise money that's predictable

00:25:01.580 and dependable so you can support a wife and children and family. Now, fortunately, in the

00:25:06.460 last generation or two, women have shared a lot more, many women have shared a lot more of that

00:25:10.940 burden. But even women who do share more of that burden are usually looking for men to marry if 0.97

00:25:16.720 they want to have children. If they want to have children, they're looking for men to marry who 1.00

00:25:20.840 are earning at least as much or more than they, or soon will have the potential for earning as

00:25:25.680 much or more than they, to give them the option of being full-time with the children, part-time

00:25:30.460 with the children, or full-time in the workplace. And so men learn, men are still learning today

00:25:37.820 that if they're not doing what they need to do, they're not going to be wanted by women.

00:25:44.200 And so we often hear that the pay gap is about men earning more than women for the same work.

00:25:49.860 That's not true.

00:25:51.160 What the pay gap is about is dads who do earn more than moms, but not for the same work.

00:25:59.040 Men will tend to give up. 0.98

00:26:00.680 If you have a young German male who's on the next train to be the next Beatles, well, he 0.97

00:26:07.900 may not know he's on the next train to be the next Beatles practicing in Germany, whether

00:26:13.060 he's in England or in Germany. And it's a risk that he will be only about one in 10,000 will

00:26:19.840 become the next Beatles. That's probably an exaggeration in terms of the percentage that

00:26:25.520 will become. So he's worried that he's not going to be able to make a good living doing that.

00:26:31.540 Or let's say he's an elementary school teacher and he's passionate about teaching his children.

00:26:36.660 Children come along and he says, you know, I can make twice as much money as a superintendent of

00:26:41.220 schools or a principal of schools. I'll have to work much more. I hate administration, but I will

00:26:47.300 give up what I want to do, being a great elementary school teacher, being an artist, a writer, an actor

00:26:53.740 or a musician, and I'll do what I need to do to earn more money to be able to give my wife the

00:26:59.920 option of working as much or as little as she wants while the children are being raised. And so 0.97

00:27:05.060 therefore those men end up earning much more money doing but and what we in the feminist 1.00

00:27:11.080 movement did is said ah men earn more money therefore they they have more privilege they

00:27:17.300 have more power in fact men were forfeiting privilege and forfeiting power because the road

00:27:23.040 to high pay is a toll road men were willing to pay more tolls to get more money to give up the

00:27:29.060 things they wanted to do which is not power it is the sacrifice of power and the sacrifice of

00:27:34.740 privilege. And so because nobody, virtually nobody understands this, and I think I explained

00:27:40.560 this best probably in both the boy crisis and the myth of male power, because nobody understands

00:27:47.360 this, that it becomes taboo to write about the privileged as if they're not privileged. And that

00:27:54.880 has seeped into our culture at the elementary school level. I hear kids telling me in fourth,

00:28:00.980 fifth, sixth, seventh grade, that their teachers are talking about men who have power and men

00:28:05.920 who have privilege and women who are living longer and living to be older and not having

00:28:13.760 enough Medicare and not enough social supports when they live older, particularly in the United

00:28:19.360 States, without any turning to the fact that, wait a minute, what about the people dying sooner?

00:28:26.120 Who has more advantage? Is it an advantage to die sooner?

00:28:30.980 rather than just have certain disadvantages

00:28:34.980 when you are living longer.

00:28:37.120 Warren, let me ask you something

00:28:38.640 because when Francis asked you about

00:28:40.720 why things have become taboo,

00:28:42.940 it seems to me that there's a thing underpinning all of this

00:28:47.480 that I find incredibly wrong and distasteful,

00:28:50.760 which is we've somehow ended up in a position

00:28:53.080 where the relationship between men and women

00:28:56.540 is seen primarily through the prism of competition

00:28:58.980 when that is frankly absurd historically isn't biologically evolutionarily historically to to

00:29:06.640 suggest that men and women should be in competition with each other instead of in collaboration

00:29:10.700 it's the most self-destructive way of looking at this whole thing that you could possibly imagine

00:29:16.140 isn't it i could not agree more um the you know part of what i say in the boy crisis is that you

00:29:22.820 So rather than think about competition between men win, men win, women lose, basically we are all in the same family boat.

00:29:33.640 When only one sex wins, everybody loses.

00:29:36.620 And this is something that we in the feminist movement, and as you know, my background was as a, you know, speaking around the world as a male feminist.

00:29:46.220 And this is a huge mistake that we made.

00:29:50.680 it was like you know women are put down men women must be oppressed by men men are earning more

00:29:57.700 money we must be the oppressors as opposed to understanding everything I was just mentioning

00:30:02.480 to you a few moments ago that that biologically and historically if you look at the earning money

00:30:10.340 as a toll road very frequently and yes it if you if you're one of the one percent or so that earns

00:30:16.940 a great deal of money. You've usually sacrificed your life to do that. You usually will go to your

00:30:22.500 deathbed saying, I wish I spent more time with my family. You'll be usually disconnected from

00:30:27.460 your feelings in order to be able to repress your fears and your feelings of inadequacy in order to

00:30:34.220 prove yourself, in order to not acknowledge any weakness that other people can take advantage of

00:30:38.980 in order to become, quote, successful. And you're successful at work, but you're often successful as

00:30:44.520 a human doing, not as a human being. We often said, you know, if women go to a party and they're 0.99

00:30:50.660 single and they're looking for a future husband, the other woman at the party says, oh, you know,

00:30:57.680 go over there to Warren. His books are selling really well. Go over there to, you know, Joe.

00:31:03.820 He's a doctor. He's so-and-so. He's in law school. He'll be making a lot of money. He's really sharp.

00:31:09.760 They don't say, you know, there's a sensitive, loving, you know, Francis guy. Look at how sweet

00:31:14.220 is, why don't you go over and make contact with Francis? He really listens better than most people

00:31:19.700 do. And you'll feel really heard by him. And so it's really destructive to see men and women

00:31:26.600 as opponents because, you know, great, you know, in my couple, I do couples communication workshops

00:31:31.720 around the United States. And in my couples workshops, about a third of the people are there

00:31:37.600 on the verge of divorce. And yet I have people make secret little notes to write in a piece of

00:31:46.360 paper. If your partner's life was in jeopardy and there was a hundred percent chance that they will

00:31:53.200 die, but you knew that you could save them and you'd have a hundred percent chance of saving

00:32:01.340 them, but a 50 percent chance that you would lose your life in the process, would you do it?

00:32:06.400 Now, remember, a third of the people in the workshop are considering divorce, and between 90 and 95% of the men say, nevertheless, that they would be willing to risk their life at the 50% level if they had 100% guarantee that they could save the life of this woman that they might be divorcing or breaking up from, as well as the ones who are there just to improve their relationships.

00:32:35.780 when women are asked the same question, and this is all done secretly, the partners never find out

00:32:41.640 what the answers are. It's about 75, 80% of the women still feel that way as well. And so mostly 1.00

00:32:50.340 men and women will forfeit an enormous amount to save their partner, to be connected with the

00:32:58.040 other one. And yet, as you mentioned, we're treating men and women as if they're competing

00:33:02.720 with each other. And the gain of one is the loss of the other. Warren, do you think, and you touched

00:33:10.620 on this in your book, that society has become more and more and more feminized, especially when

00:33:17.860 you compare it to 50, 60 years ago? Definitely. And I have no problem with society opening up

00:33:28.320 the option of more feminine behavior on the part of men, as well as having opened up the option of

00:33:36.720 more masculine behavior on the part of women. But we're not just doing that. We're making the 0.97

00:33:43.420 feminine behavior as the superior behavior and the masculine behavior as the toxic masculinity. 1.00

00:33:50.720 And there is a lot of toxicity in both sexes, both sexes that took their femininity or masculinity 0.87

00:33:58.220 to the extreme, both sexes became toxic in the process. And so women who were not ever comfortable 1.00

00:34:07.900 taking a sexual initiative directly had to learn to take sexual initiatives indirectly. If they

00:34:15.580 didn't learn to take sexual initiatives indirectly, which is a type of manipulation,

00:34:20.800 then they didn't get a man that they wanted. They didn't get a man that they wanted. They 0.85

00:34:28.120 were often very unhappy. And so women developed a lot of toxic behavior if they weren't able to 1.00

00:34:35.060 express a more masculine side of taking the risk of asking a man out, taking the risk of sexual

00:34:41.220 rejection, taking the risks of starting a business that might fail. And so it was very helpful for

00:34:49.280 women to learn male skills, but either gender skills taken to their extreme became toxic. 0.97

00:34:57.840 On the male side of the coin, men, in order to be loved, had to be willing to risk their

00:35:05.800 lives like dying in war, risk their lives in a different way by, you know, working either

00:35:11.140 if they're a working class male in the hazardous jobs, as I'm sure is true in Europe, there 1.00

00:35:17.680 is about 93% of the people who die in hazardous jobs are males. And those are the ones that just 0.88

00:35:26.980 die in hazardous jobs, ones that die in jobs that have what is called remnant deaths, like black 1.00

00:35:35.260 lung disease from working in coal mines, where you don't, or as a firefighter, you don't die

00:35:40.440 right away on the job. You die much earlier after you leave your job because of the black lung

00:35:46.560 disease, et cetera, those are almost all men. So if you're in a boot camp and you learn that your 1.00

00:35:54.660 job is to be willing to die for your country and the sergeant or the person above you, the officer

00:36:02.920 in the boot camp says, you know, make some anti-Semitic comments or some anti-female or

00:36:09.420 anti-male comments and you're, let's say, short. He makes a comment about being, you know, a little

00:36:15.960 a pygmy or a midget and you say that's you know really racist or that's sexist or 0.99

00:36:20.920 you know or that's anti-semitic the the job of that officer in the army is to tell you 0.96

00:36:27.860 oh you sweet little boy you're going to make a really wonderful soldier worrying about what's

00:36:33.860 anti-semitic your job is to die to be part of the war machine your job is to be a cog in the war

00:36:41.560 machine. The war machine does not work well with squeaky wheels like you. Get down and do five 0.98

00:36:48.780 push-ups. Get down and do 20 push-ups if that doesn't work. Get down and do 40 push-ups. Guys,

00:36:54.360 you have permission to mock this guy until he straightens up and he stops being concerned about

00:36:59.760 who he is and what his sensitivity is and focuses on recognizing that he's here to be willing to die

00:37:07.960 so this country can survive and to live.

00:37:11.740 And now does that develop toxicities?

00:37:14.680 It certainly does.

00:37:15.920 It means men learned to not be even in touch 0.73

00:37:20.200 with their feelings.

00:37:21.580 It wasn't that we just learned

00:37:22.980 to not express our feelings.

00:37:24.920 We learned that men are very bottom line people.

00:37:27.660 And we learned that if expressing our feelings

00:37:30.480 doesn't get us anywhere,

00:37:32.280 it really doesn't help to be in touch

00:37:33.980 with feelings we can't express.

00:37:35.280 So we might as well repress even getting in touch with those feelings.

00:37:40.220 And that's toxic.

00:37:41.620 When you can't get in touch with your feelings, it comes out in different ways.

00:37:45.760 You act out.

00:37:46.640 You hurt people.

00:37:47.800 You become hurt inside of yourself.

00:37:50.340 And, you know, hurt people hurt people.

00:37:52.900 And this is, and so you see almost all your mass shooters are very hurt people, usually

00:37:58.700 not just dad deprived, but usually deeply hurting inside.

00:38:02.400 And they act, they act it out.

00:38:04.440 And so both sexes have toxicities. But we have framed the world in the last 50 years as there's, you know, there's toxic masculinity and there's sort of, if you will, superior femininity. And that's just a miscalculation of the understanding of both sexes.

00:38:22.780 And Warren, another thing that I found really interesting was the point that you made in the

00:38:28.400 book where you were talking about the men who felt unheard. These were liable to be your Brexit 0.84

00:38:33.460 voters, your Trump voters, because the only way that they had of actually making themselves heard

00:38:38.860 was at the ballot box. Yes. Yes. And Trump was sort of like, he was articulating without worry

00:38:48.680 about what he said. And just sort of like, you know, I'm going to lambast, it's going to land

00:38:54.400 where it does. I'm going to tell the truth from the way that a lot of people in the United States

00:38:59.300 who felt left out, who felt unheard, especially the more developed the woke culture became,

00:39:05.740 the more canceling the cancel culture became, the more junior high school teachers were saying the

00:39:11.680 future is female and boys were feeling that, you know, I'm a male and I'm hearing that the future

00:39:17.340 is female, that doesn't inspire me very much to do really well in school and to really, you know,

00:39:22.240 watch out for my future. Because if I succeed, I'll be told, I'll be told it's because I have

00:39:26.900 male privilege. If I fail, I'll be, you know, I'll be ignored. And so a lot of people felt

00:39:34.260 caught between a rock and a hard place. And it appeared to them like Trump, you know, for all

00:39:40.060 the bully that he was, was just cutting, you know, cutting right through that rather than sort of

00:39:44.620 what they would think of as namby-pambying around, saying everything with precise sensitivity and precision

00:39:52.540 that so many politicians did on the part of both the left and the right.

00:39:57.260 And so, yes, there's so much that the political left was not hearing about what the average experience was of the average person.

00:40:08.240 The average family felt that they saw the father going out early in the morning, becoming that firefighter, becoming the logger, doing the hazardous job, making more money at a career, but also sacrificing, being away from the children, experiencing what I call the father's catch-22, the dad learning to love his family by being away from the love of his family.

00:40:35.040 most women got this most families got this but they didn't feel that the political left got this

00:40:41.960 and so when when trump was willing to speak about these things without

00:40:45.740 any fear of stepping on toes it felt like finally they had a champion

00:40:51.600 that's that's very interesting and you you alluded earlier when you were talking to

00:40:57.560 to the kind of angry bitter young men who often find themselves in positions where they're so

00:41:04.400 angry that they start acting out. And obviously the extreme end of that is the mass shooters that

00:41:09.280 you talk about. But there's a bigger, seemingly a bigger culture, a bigger movement or a bigger

00:41:15.660 group of people who've been enabled by social media and technology to congregate, to share

00:41:21.020 thoughts, to kind of talk to each other, whether it's incels or whatever that is. What should

00:41:28.700 society's attitude be to those people? Because I have to say, as a man who's always tried to

00:41:36.460 embody the traditional qualities of masculinity, which is you strive, you work hard, you have

00:41:42.020 ambition, you have drive, etc. I do struggle to have empathy. I mean, just in general, because

00:41:48.740 I'm Russian, but in particular to that group of people, because I always, there is a kind of

00:41:54.280 what now is fashionably termed victim-blaming in my psyche, which is like, well, why don't you get

00:42:00.180 up off the couch and go and try and do something? And of course, I recognize that factually,

00:42:06.860 based on what you've said, it's a lot more difficult for them than it maybe was for me

00:42:11.100 when I was growing up. Well, it's a very good question. So let's look at the words like

00:42:15.920 incel incel for the novice tuning in here it means involuntarily celibate involuntarily celibate 0.68

00:42:25.840 so these people these men are saying that i don't want to be celibate i'd like to be sexual with a

00:42:34.520 woman but i'm involuntary but i i have to prevent myself from doing it because you know for example 0.99

00:42:42.040 if I put my penis in a woman's body, I'm putting my life in her hands. She can choose to have an 1.00

00:42:47.720 abortion or she can choose to sue me for support. If she decides to not abort and to have the child,

00:42:57.620 I am sued and I'm sued for support. From that one sexual experience, I put my life in her hands.

00:43:03.860 If I want to have equal access to that child, because even though I didn't intend to have the

00:43:09.240 child, I nevertheless feel like I want to help raise that child because I know children do best

00:43:14.860 when raised by both parents. And I feel it's only fair for me to be equally involved. And I'm being

00:43:20.960 told that I don't have an option to be equally involved in that child's life. I only have an

00:43:26.600 option to pay for that child's support. And I see that in court after court, I don't have more than

00:43:33.700 a little chance of winning. And if I had a chance of winning, I'd at least have to spend the

00:43:38.800 equivalent of 150,000 US dollars to hire lawyers, hire expert witnesses, hire people to convince

00:43:46.960 the judge to allow me to be a good father. That feels like too much of a risk for sex.

00:43:53.620 So you and I are programmed, Constantine, to work our rears off and to do what we need to do. You 0.62

00:44:00.480 wouldn't be doing this podcast if you were that type of male. I wouldn't be writing books if I

00:44:06.160 wasn't that type of male but not every male is like that some men do not have you know they may

00:44:11.900 have been brought up by them you know by without a dad themselves they may not be as motivated

00:44:16.160 they may but they still are heterosexual they still care for women but but it's too complex

00:44:22.920 it's too dangerous to be involved it's like somebody wanting to desiring enormously to ride

00:44:31.840 a motorcycle and take risks riding that motorcycle, but then reading and understanding that it's

00:44:38.760 36 times more likely that you're going to get into an accident per mile of motorcycle riding.

00:44:44.820 So you give up what you want to do because it's too dangerous to do it. That's incels. And basically

00:44:50.820 that's the same psychology behind men going their own way. However, there's two types of things that

00:44:56.220 can come out of that. When men going their own way or incels meeting together and get together

00:45:02.940 and sharing feelings and sharing their pains and sharing their anger and sharing sometimes hatred

00:45:08.220 of women because they're so, that either can be very healing because for moments when we're angry

00:45:16.900 and we feel vulnerable, anger is vulnerability's mask. And in any therapy group, every therapist

00:45:26.140 knows, that sometimes the anger of a woman or the anger of a man will be exaggerated. 0.94

00:45:32.360 I hate my husband. 1.00

00:45:33.340 I wish he was dead. 1.00

00:45:34.780 I wish I had never met him. 1.00

00:45:36.140 I wish I'd never married him.

00:45:37.860 Well, that is anger, of course.

00:45:41.480 That is a hatred of the moment, of course.

00:45:44.740 But almost always, I learn this again and again from doing my couples communication

00:45:50.120 workshops, anger is vulnerability's mask.

00:45:54.320 if you ask what's the vulnerability behind this anger you have a totally different feeling about

00:46:02.480 what's happening usually what happens is the anger is a stage and having a chance to vent feelings

00:46:09.620 is therapeutic as it is in a therapist's office and this is a very healing men like this getting

00:46:16.980 together and venting can be very healing and occasionally it can be very destructive if they

00:46:23.660 don't get off the venting and move into a more constructive life. Now, for me, a constructive

00:46:29.300 life is not withdrawing from women or withdrawing from society. For me, a constructive life is

00:46:35.300 learning how to listen, learning how to interact, learning how to work things through. And I can

00:46:43.340 write about what I feel and talk about what I feel, and I'm able to make a living doing that.

00:46:49.140 and but let's open our hearts to the people who can't make a living doing that they're not saying

00:46:54.220 they're not saying I want to destroy women I want to hurt women I don't want women good things for 1.00

00:47:01.180 women they're just saying it's too complex for me to be out there with women I need to withdraw

00:47:08.320 and be by myself and Warren the the thing that really struck me when I was reading your book

00:47:14.960 which I really loved actually and it was very very powerful was a fact that really hit home

00:47:22.060 which was more people would prefer to have a girl than have a boy and that to me really hit home

00:47:29.580 where the problem is and that it seems to be as a society we seem to prefer girls now. Yes yes 1.00

00:47:36.280 absolutely and what I think is at the beginning of the boy crisis I sort of talk about this and

00:47:41.160 You know, one of the ways this came up was I was, you know, with a number of people in a dinner party and and, you know, one was a strong feminist and another one was, you know, a minister.

00:47:53.860 And the other one was a former governor of a state in the country who's pretty well known.

00:48:00.840 And and so and there were six of us around there.

00:48:03.940 And so Sam Keene, the fellow that wrote the book on masculinity, he just asked the question, if you were having a boy or a girl today, which would you prefer?

00:48:20.500 And five out of the six of us said a boy.

00:48:22.800 and so I started asking myself I wonder whether this is true more than in a cherry-picked anecdotal

00:48:28.800 type of way and was able to see that you know the data on now today the great majority of mothers

00:48:35.060 and fathers would prefer to have a girl even though the fathers say oh I feel like I could

00:48:41.720 have a lot more fun with a boy I'd have a lot more permission to play soccer or football or

00:48:46.160 roughhouse with them and you know really tease them and stuff like that but so they if I asked

00:48:53.960 the question with whom would you feel like you'd have more fun raising the fathers would say a boy

00:49:01.860 but if I asked them who would you rather have a boy or a girl the fathers and the mothers both

00:49:10.300 said a girl and the reason the father said that when I questioned the fathers on that and confronted

00:49:15.820 of them, they said, because a girl will have an easier option, more options in the world at this

00:49:22.320 time. They'll be more supported. They'll be more loved. I don't want to, I'm afraid to bring a boy

00:49:27.980 into the society at this time. And so this is statistically what both females, mothers and 0.98

00:49:35.080 fathers, future mothers and future fathers would both today prefer to have a girl because they

00:49:42.420 feel the girl will have more options, more support emotionally, more support economically

00:49:50.280 in this society at this time and for the future of their life.

00:49:56.140 Warren, that's an interesting point.

00:49:57.400 We're almost out of time, but I want to just, before we ask you our last question, just

00:50:01.100 pick up on that issue because I hear that and that makes sense.

00:50:06.900 But there's also a part of me that thinks, if you have a boy in modern society and he's,

00:50:12.140 smart and talented and he's got the right education, whatever, surrounded by boys who've

00:50:18.700 not had the same thing. We see increasing breakdown of the family, increasingly boys 0.64

00:50:25.140 being encouraged not to act like boys. But at the end of the day, I also see around me,

00:50:30.780 particularly among young people, that masculine men, I mean, they're cleaning up, right? They're

00:50:36.400 doing very well uh because they are such a contrast to the rest of of their peers if you like

00:50:42.900 so isn't there also a truth to like if you have a boy and he happens to be hard working and driven

00:50:49.400 and have the kind of traditional male qualities uh they will do very well isn't that also true

00:50:55.120 well on the attraction of the other gender level if he's um if he has both mother and father and

00:51:02.560 is bringing him up to be able to have that checks and balance parenting that leads to

00:51:07.400 postponed gratification, combination of empathy, emotional intelligence, and hard work intelligence

00:51:14.480 as well. And if you want him to be attractive to the sex, he has to be also tall, at least as tall

00:51:21.440 as the average male, because females reject shorter men very, very frequently. Sorry, mate.

00:51:29.220 I'm tall enough, mate.

00:51:32.320 So the, you know, or that, you know, the shorter man has to work even harder to be even more successful to compensate for his height.

00:51:40.360 Exactly.

00:51:40.760 And so the good news about children being raised by both parents, especially if they're really involved with them and they're balanced people themselves, is that the boy will make it through this enormous maze of challenges and probably be all the stronger for it.

00:52:00.460 But the males, particularly those without dads, really have a huge amount of challenges before them.

00:52:10.700 And that is deeply sad.

00:52:13.440 And we really need to have.

00:52:16.320 And so let me spend a moment talking to the single mother that's listening here. 0.97

00:52:20.820 So, you know, you may become depressed if I'm talking about the importance of both parents being involved.

00:52:25.660 And so the first thing to do if you are a single mom is to make sure that you look at the parts of the boy crisis that focus on what are the differences between dad-style parenting and mom-style parenting and what's the value of each of those differences.

00:52:43.500 And so when you value what dads can contribute and you let the dad know why you value him and why you need him in the child's life, remember, almost all throughout history, when men were told they were needed, like Uncle Sam needs you, the government needs you to fight this war,

00:53:06.560 men are willing to die if they feel they'll be needed and be of value contributing. So if you

00:53:14.700 understand what men, dads contribute, and you communicate that effectively to the dad,

00:53:20.600 the chances of having him involved are great. However, if for whatever reason, the dad cannot

00:53:27.300 be involved, make sure you get your children involved in what I call in the Boy Crisis book,

00:53:34.020 the liberal arts of sports. Pick up team sports, team sports, sports like gymnastics or tennis,

00:53:41.020 which are largely based on the development of your own skills. Discover why all those are

00:53:47.700 necessary. Get your son involved in the equivalent of scouting. Find in each of the sports good

00:53:55.360 male coaches who are willing to support him emotionally, but also prod him on and expect

00:54:02.340 more of him, get mentors for him, and have him read in the Boy Crisis book why being a mentor

00:54:12.120 is even more important for your son than being mentored. Both are important, but a boy who

00:54:19.420 has somebody to mentor begins to take on psychologically responsibilities that make

00:54:26.100 him feel like he's needed if he succeeds as a role model to the boy he's mentoring.

00:54:31.900 So look at, there's many, many things you can do

00:54:34.260 if you have the equivalent of Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts

00:54:36.580 in your country, get them involved in that.

00:54:40.060 If you have a faith that you care about,

00:54:42.680 get them involved in a faith-based organization,

00:54:45.100 but make sure the faith-based leader

00:54:48.160 gets your son involved in private conversations

00:54:52.460 and group conversations with other boys his age

00:54:55.280 so that your son can discover

00:54:57.920 that all boys feel very similar vulnerabilities, that he's not alone, he's not out, he doesn't

00:55:04.340 need to withdraw and be depressed because he feels nobody will understand him. These are just a few

00:55:09.420 of the many things that a single mom can do, both to get the biological father involved, 1.00

00:55:16.360 the stepfather, spend time reading why the stepfather is very rarely a substitute for the

00:55:23.080 biological father. So all those things are important if you're a single mom to know in order

00:55:28.440 to have the best, your child, your children have the best chance of doing well. This is almost

00:55:33.860 everything I'm mentioning is true for our daughters as well, but it's just more true, intensely true

00:55:40.020 for our sons. Warren, I would have happily have spoken to you for another hour. However, our time

00:55:45.520 is up. Before we go, we always have one final question, which is always what's the one thing

00:55:50.440 we're not talking about but we really should be well sort of sadly everything we've talked about

00:55:59.640 on this podcast are is sort of a way the one series of things we should be talking about that

00:56:07.720 we are not talking about for the reasons i mentioned we need to do with boys issues and

00:56:14.100 the importance of fathers particularly the importance of fathers and the understanding

00:56:19.260 what the differences are between dad and mom-style parenting. We need to make that the equivalent of

00:56:25.280 what the Green Party made the environment 40, 50, 70 years ago when nobody would hear

00:56:33.840 about the importance of the environment and the Green Party lost election after election

00:56:39.160 articulating that. But now most of the world understands the importance of paying attention

00:56:44.100 to the environment. We need to be the political leaders, the school leaders. We need to petition

00:56:50.660 and make sure our schools have good male role models so girls and boys don't go from

00:56:57.420 an all-female home to an all-female school. And then we look quizzically at why they get 0.99

00:57:03.460 attracted to a gang or why they get attracted to selling drugs. We need to look at what we need to

00:57:10.800 do take responsibility politically and in our schools and at home for having children be raised

00:57:19.120 by both parents in a completely equally involved way. Dr. Warren Farrell, thank you so much for

00:57:27.140 coming on the show. We will ask you a couple of questions very quickly for our supporters.

00:57:32.260 But in the meantime, thanks so much for coming on. The book is called The Boy Crisis.

00:57:36.040 I thoroughly recommend

00:57:37.440 everybody gets it

00:57:38.600 and thank you all

00:57:39.460 for watching at home

00:57:40.320 we will see you very soon

00:57:41.780 with another brilliant interview

00:57:42.860 like this one

00:57:43.440 or a raw show

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00:57:49.100 take care

00:57:49.980 and see you soon guys

00:57:51.280 we hope you've enjoyed

00:57:54.100 this incredible interview

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TRIGGERnometry - September 27, 2021

Why Men & Boys Are Struggling and No One Cares - Dr Warren Farrell

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