In this episode, we speak to the headteacher of a school that is being sued for a prayer room. She explains why she doesn t believe in division according to race or religion, and why she thinks there should be no such thing as a 'prayer room' at all schools.
00:02:27.840People feel that it's wrong for a child to take the school to court for this reason.
00:02:34.480I suppose people feel that schools ought to be allowed to be secular places.
00:02:43.680And we are very much a secular school.
00:02:47.360We are also a very multicultural school, multi-faith, multi-race, multi-everything.
00:02:53.360And we we are asking all the various different groups in the school to make sacrifices for the betterment of the whole.
00:03:02.560So this is what this is really about, Kat.
00:03:04.240And this is kind of why I was asking you the question, because you're someone who, because of your own background and because of the background of the kids that you've got under your leadership, essentially, at your school, you understand that in order for different races and different groups to work together, they all have to subscribe to a bigger thing.
00:03:39.840So, you know, and that obviously people, you know, there's some people who would very much want us to win it and some people who want us to lose it.
00:03:49.600And when I say the different groups, so, yes, you're right that in many schools, you'll find that there is the LGBT group or there's the black Caribbean group or there's the Hindu group and so on.
00:04:07.560We consider all our children to be British and I think often ethnic minorities are denied the opportunity to call themselves British by both the right and the left politically.
00:04:19.320The left, because they insist that actually ethnic minorities are from somewhere else, you know, when actually we're all British and we should all be able to call ourselves British.
00:04:30.080So we sing God save the king and I've added thee my country.
00:04:33.680And, you know, we we stand for the headmistress and we're very traditional in our approach.
00:04:38.480And so it isn't just that we don't have prayer rooms because people then say to me, oh, well, you don't like Islam.
00:05:14.900All of the different groups have to make sacrifices in order for us all to get on.
00:05:19.460And one way in which this showed itself right at the beginning when we opened up in 2014, we opened as a normal school with meat in the in the canteen.
00:05:28.820And we do a family lunch where all the children, they sit in groups of six.
00:16:51.620We'd gone to court and managed to get a media ban, which was then lifted last week in court, which is why suddenly we've been thrown into the press.
00:17:00.180I was desperate for it to remain because some people who criticize me say, oh, well, she obviously just wants to be in the news.
00:17:08.560Now, we were very lucky when this happened because we didn't end up in the media and it only stayed online.
00:17:15.520But even when I say online, on social media, a few blogs were written.
00:17:19.740There were some videos made on TikTok and that kind of thing.
00:17:23.560Now, because of this petition and because of the furore that happened online, we then started getting death threats and all kinds of abuse.
00:17:32.580One of my teachers, black teacher, got horribly racially abused, you know, being called the N-word, the C-word, compared to a monkey, all kinds of horrible, horrible things.
00:17:42.420And I'm talking 15 to 20, you know, commons, you know, it's not just one thing.
00:18:26.360We also had to close the school early, just before the holidays, because we were meant to go out on some school trips and they just couldn't happen.
00:18:59.400And obviously, we had some children who prayed and some of them did not.
00:19:02.120But what happened was that the culture changed over the days this was happening.
00:19:08.080And the children who were praying, some of them would then go to the break hall food table and intimidate the other ones who were not fasting because they chose not to fast for whatever reason.
00:19:22.260They're Muslim, they're Muslim, but they don't want to fast.
00:19:24.620And they were made to feel, I suppose, as if they were, you know, doing something wrong by not fasting.
00:19:31.140And so they were intimidated into fasting and they weren't able to take the food.
00:19:36.020A girl, one girl, she was suddenly started wearing a hijab, even though she didn't wear one before.
00:19:40.760One girl dropped out of the choir because music is considered haram.
00:19:45.940All of these things, more children started praying, more children started praying and so on.
00:19:50.320And the intimidation, so there was the horrible intimidation and aggression that was happening outside.
00:19:55.280But then there was the intimidation that was happening between the children.
00:19:58.760Now, the thing is, it's my duty as headmistress to protect all the children, not just one particular group.
00:20:05.120So this includes the Muslim children who are being intimidated.
00:20:08.260But it also includes everyone, you know, so that everyone can feel happy and comfortable in our environment.
00:20:14.320So the governors took the decision to ban prayer because, obviously, of what had happened.
00:20:21.340And we were in danger. I mean, our lives were literally in danger.
00:20:34.940And everything was fine and calm and lovely and everyone was mixing across the races.
00:20:41.100It was just it that incident, that time totally transformed the school into something that wasn't very nice.
00:20:49.620And so, yeah, we're fighting for, you know, the right to be able to run the school as we see fit, really.
00:20:57.060Which is, of course, and I'm fully in agreement that you should be able to do that.
00:21:01.600When did you know that there was a court case looming?
00:21:07.720Well, I suppose it was soon after the time in March that we knew that that was happening.
00:21:16.940Now, of course, all of that, it takes ages before you actually get to court.
00:21:19.780And then there was this media ban, so nobody was writing about us.
00:21:27.120I think a couple of articles appeared in the last year in the papers, but they just talked generally about a school somewhere in Britain, you know.
00:21:37.220And then on Tuesday last week, we had the case in the courts and I was there.
00:21:42.500And our barrister was arguing to keep the ban because of the death threats and so on.
00:21:50.200But, I mean, the judge has a hard job.
00:21:53.000He's trying to weigh up our interests against the interests of the public.
00:21:58.880And he was saying, well, this is of the interest.
00:22:01.360It's in the interest of the public to read about this.
00:22:04.000Various members of the press stood up and made their case for why they thought it should be made public.
00:22:08.340Our barrister made the case for why it would be dangerous for us.
00:22:11.520The judge, in the end, decided that the family should not be named and that the teachers should not be named, but that I and the school should be named.
00:22:22.800Now, I mean, ultimately, if you name the school, you name me.
00:23:53.400I also understand that it is, I certainly understand now since, you know, when the judge was saying, I was so angry with him when he lifted the ban.
00:24:03.720And I was thinking, how can it be that, you know, our lives are at stake here and that you're lifting this ban?
00:24:08.820But having seen the amount of public interest that there's been since, I sort of think, well, maybe he was right.
00:24:15.300You know, he's making a judgment without the emotion tied up in it, which I'm obviously feeling and the fear that I feel.
00:24:33.220But, I mean, it has been the case, and you guys have known me, you know, since a long time ago.
00:24:40.320I've always had to fight for the school.
00:24:42.240People have been fighting us ever since we, well, from before we established.
00:24:47.120It took us three and a half years to establish because so many detractors were stopping us from opening the school.
00:24:54.520We've been, people have protested outside before, trying to stop us from, well, having the kids when we first started,
00:25:03.300claiming that the kids were in danger in the building and all sorts of nonsense with placards insulting me and shouting abuse at me and so on.
00:25:12.240And before we opened, we would have parent evenings where we'd be telling people about this new school and people would, they would bus people in from out of London.
00:25:24.860I mean, this is the thing that was so crazy.
00:25:26.320And so we tried to open the school originally in Brixton, and we had an event at a pub.
00:25:33.160And I was handing out all these flyers to all these black mums at the market and down, you know, the various mosques and churches and so on.
00:25:40.720And they all came, and there were all these white people who were standing outside with placards, calling me a Tory teacher and shouting abuse at me.
00:25:51.900We had to hire bouncers for the possible violence that might ensue from this whole thing.
00:25:56.420And so these are the left who supposedly care about ethnic minorities, having a great education.
00:26:03.460Here we are trying to provide an excellent education, and they are campaigning against, now I say the left.
00:26:10.640You know, there's lots of very sensible people on the left.
00:26:12.380And, you know, there was one event that we had where one woman, because I had spoken at the Conservative Party conference in 2010, which is what threw me in the limelight in the first place.
00:26:51.820You know, and if you don't, people get very, very angry about it.
00:26:54.940And I remember one woman at one of our events, she stood up, because often they would stand up and shout when we were trying to talk to the parents in order to drown us out.
00:27:02.840So the parents wouldn't be able to hear what we were saying.
00:27:04.960She stood up and said, you betrayed us when you went to speak at the Conservative Party conference.
00:27:10.080And I thought, but I don't even know who you are.
00:28:02.200And these are, well, these are values that we give the kids at the school, which I think really make us what we are.
00:28:10.280Well, and it's one of the reasons I think all of these things that you're saying, Catherine, is since we met you and found more out about Michaela, I've personally found you inspiring.
00:28:19.060And you're someone I really admire because you're someone who's consistently willing to stick up for the things that she knows are right, even when it's difficult as it is in this case.
00:28:29.240And you attract a lot of negative publicity and all sorts of, you know, very unfortunate threats and so on, which, you know, I hope, obviously, we all don't materialize in any way.
00:28:38.640And obviously, it shouldn't be happening in the first place.
00:28:41.880But I think, as you say, the reason this story has attracted as much of public commentaries, it sort of feels a little bit like a test case for all the things that you alluded to earlier for both left and right, because the right has now gone into a kind of reactionary position to some extent, where it's like multiculturalism has failed, which it has.
00:29:03.120The idea that we should divide people according to the very issues that you just talked about, you know, the white person standing up and going, you betrayed us.
00:29:10.400That's not a multiracial society like ours cannot be made to work.
00:29:15.780And so you can obviously, we all understand the frustrations people feel.
00:29:19.340However, the answer to that has to be to advocate on a national level what you've instituted at Michaela, which is, look, I don't care if you're Muslim.
00:29:30.940I don't care if you're black, brown, white, whatever.
00:29:33.120We're all here under one roof, and we're all going to pull in the same direction and work together because we're all Michaela students or because we're all British or because we're all American or whatever that label is.
00:29:59.220But the thing is, like, one of the things, look, I do think for myself.
00:30:02.120So I come on a show where I know there are going to be lots of right wing people talking and I say, you know what?
00:30:06.680There is such a thing as racism because I think there is.
00:30:08.820And when I'm saying, look, I think ethnic minorities like me, there's a reason why Suala Braverman and Priti Patel and Kemi Bader not get the hatred that they get.
00:30:56.960But the left also has an issue with what you are doing for the precise reasons that they oppose the very thing that you cherish, which is everybody coming together and working together.
00:31:10.140They want to split everybody apart and say, you're this group, you're that group.
00:31:13.460We can look at your skin colour and say, these are the opinions you should have and this is your level of oppression and blah, blah, blah.
00:31:18.100But that's why it seems to me this case has got the attention that it's got because you're standing up for a very important principle against, frankly, what some people might interpret as the expression of an intolerant minority view of which there are different versions from all sides.
00:31:37.100Although I wouldn't say that it's so minority these days.
00:31:40.360I mean, what I mean is people don't sort of realise it, you know, just everyone sort of thinks in that divisive way.
00:31:45.580You know, so I would say in 1995 we had far better race relations than we do now, you know, because everybody now just sees colour because that's all anybody ever talks about.
00:31:55.780So I have people who say to me, would you like to join our board because we really need a diverse board?
00:32:01.740Do you slap them because you shouldn't?
00:32:03.420Well, and I think to myself, do you know all that I've achieved?
00:32:14.120And the thing is because the, well, I say because, look, for some people I see some of the comments on there about, you know, when I'm trying to defend us, you know, and some of the comments against Muslims or Muslim children.
00:32:45.860Now, like, because as I say, we had our year 11 parents evening and we had a group, a mixed group of people in there, Muslims and Hindus, black and white, all types.
00:33:00.040And when I say about the thing about being British, I think that's important.
00:33:03.540It's the one thing that we have in common.
00:33:05.200Now, the right can keep, you know, more of the extreme right can keep campaigning about, well, multiculturalism fails and we need to get rid of these people.
00:33:16.900We, children, look, the number one thing everybody needs to understand is the importance of schools.
00:33:21.160This is all I keep saying is the importance of schools and nobody listens to me and nobody cares about schools.
00:33:27.600People sort of think, rich people think, it's all right, I'll just get my kid into a private school and he'll be okay.
00:33:33.420People tend to panic when their child is in year six and they're worried about where they're going to get their child to for secondary school.
00:33:38.740And once he's in the secondary school and he seems okay, they leave it.
00:33:42.720People don't seem to realize that schools are not just engines of social nobility.
00:33:48.580They're also engines of social cohesion, right?
00:33:52.380And it's there that children become who they're going to be as adults and their families and their schools are what play the most important role in making them into who they're going to be.
00:34:06.180And if we want to have a future for the country, we must look to our schools.
00:34:15.680So the pundits, you know, like you and whoever, you know, we once had Jordan Peterson come to our school and I said to him, why do you never talk about schools?
00:35:12.980And the reason why critical race theory and gender studies and all this sort of stuff has been happening in schools is because children have been leading the learning for 20, 30 years.
00:35:50.360And the teacher is the facilitator of learning, moving amongst the desks, keeping the children on task.
00:35:56.160The teacher is no longer the authority leading the way.
00:35:59.180I always say the teacher should be driving the bus, and you're keeping the children on the bus with you, and you decide where you're going.
00:36:05.500You set the standards of the discipline.
00:36:07.540The leadership team at the school runs and leads the culture of the school.
00:36:13.940What people often don't understand about our school is when they're talking about the situation, about prayer, they say, well, it's five minutes.
00:36:25.480Well, look, in our school, there really is no free time in a way, you know?
00:36:31.760Yes, they're playing basketball, and yes, they're chatting to each other, but the teachers are all there, and they're all making sure that we are being socialized in a way that means that eventually, when we let the little birdies fly, they are good citizens.
00:36:45.380And they are people that we can be proud of, you know?
00:36:49.220There's one of my deputies once gave me this quote, which says, you can be friends with your children when they are children or when they are adults.
00:37:15.160And then what's happened is, because the children are leading everything, that's why they've led us straight into this madness, right, that is happening in too many schools where children are being divided.
00:37:39.180And the one thing that I've noticed, because I've worked in many schools, both academically outstanding, tough schools in places like Newham.
00:37:47.720And what I've noticed is that the individual has now become more important than the group or the collective.
00:37:55.380And when that happens, what you get is chaos.
00:37:59.000And when I was reading about your case, I was like, this is the exact same thing happening again, where one person has decided that this is unacceptable, so everybody else can go do what they need to do.
00:38:14.460But I need to do this, regardless of the chaos that it causes.
00:38:19.140The thing is, is that in any group, whether it's multiracial or not, you're going to have to make sacrifices.
00:38:48.440I mean, the thing is, I am no royalist.
00:38:50.660I do not have the king's photo on mugs.
00:38:53.720You know, I do not have royal stuff at home.
00:39:00.180I don't really care about all that stuff.
00:39:01.900But the reason why we sing God Save the King is because I know that he is a symbol of the country and therefore of our Britishness and of what we share together and what we have in common.
00:39:21.620Now, obviously, schools that have different layouts, maybe have a bit more of a free time at lunch, they may do different things, you know.
00:39:30.200But given what we do with our family lunch and all of that stuff, we would have to turn into a different type of school.
00:39:38.980And then you need to think, well, is it reasonable to ask a school to give up its whole ethos to totally transform in order for us to have prayer rooms?
00:39:48.640Is that a reasonable thing? And I don't think it is, you know.
00:39:54.180Catherine, and is this really, is there an element of this where it's just one disgruntled student, essentially, who, by the way, from what I've read, was a bit of a troublemaker?
00:40:04.280Is that where this is coming from, do you think? Or is this really somebody making a stand on principle?
00:40:09.840It's hard to say, you know, it is. It's hard to say.
00:40:12.720I don't know. I mean, at the end of the day, I understand different religious groups wanting different things.
00:40:22.780And not just religious groups, you know, there are all kinds of groups that want different things.
00:40:27.380But, you know, our small c conservative values that I was saying, what are they?
00:40:31.920We believe very much in personal responsibility, the children taking responsibility for their homework and all the rest of it.
00:40:36.620And if, you know, not to blame other people, not to see yourself as a victim.
00:40:42.100So, and that's very much part of our culture.
00:40:44.380We believe in having a duty towards other people, towards your form.
00:40:47.740So if a child comes back at the end of the day to their tutor and he's had a detention, or three or four of them have had detention,
00:40:54.420their form tutor will say, look, you've let us all down.
00:42:05.340You know, as opposed to seeing yourself as a victim, life is so hard for me.
00:42:09.560So while I say that, yes, I believe that racism exists and so on, if all you ever do is see everything through that lens and see yourself as this victim.
00:42:19.540So, you know, yes, things happen to me that might, you know, have a racist tone to them.
00:42:24.660If I went around life all the time thinking about that, well, I'd never have set up my school.
00:42:29.620I would never have succeeded as I have.
00:42:31.120And that's the thing that I often find that left don't understand.
00:42:35.920Once I went and gave a talk, this is relatively recently.
00:42:40.020I talked about what we do in exactly as I'm just doing with you.
00:42:43.680And this white woman came up to me and she said, but what about the racism?
00:42:48.580Why aren't you teaching them about the racism?
00:42:50.860And I said, sorry, you know, I mean, you know, forget the irony of this white woman telling me how terrible racism is.
00:42:57.020And she said, you must tell them about the racism.
00:43:00.080And I said, well, you know, they do know that they're black and brown.
00:43:06.200And she said, but you've got to tell them because how are they going to cope in life otherwise?
00:43:12.080And I said, OK, so we teach them how to jump over obstacles.
00:43:15.900We teach them resilience and stoicism.
00:43:18.620We teach them how to handle difficulties in life and how to make something of their life.
00:43:24.220There will be all sorts of obstacles in their lives.
00:43:25.840Some of those may be racist obstacles.
00:43:28.320Some of those may be any kind of huge numbers of obstacles.
00:43:31.480The point is, do they have the resilience and the ability to be able to get up?