TRIGGERnometry - World’s Strictest Teacher Sued for Banning Prayer at School - Katharine Birbalsingh

00:00:00.800 Here you are, your school is being sued all over the national newspapers.

00:00:04.480 What's going on?

00:00:05.280 We're being sued for a prayer room.

00:00:08.120 I'm not saying that no school should have a prayer room.

00:00:10.440 I'm saying it can't work for us.

00:00:12.160 We would have to abandon everything that we are.

00:00:14.960 Like, that is to divide according to race and religion.

00:00:16.960 And I will never divide the children according to race and religion.

00:00:19.320 I don't believe in that.

00:00:20.600 There were the death threats, there was the bomb threat.

00:00:22.400 The police had to come and search the school for bombs one morning.

00:00:25.360 I don't understand it.

00:00:26.640 We've all lost our minds.

00:00:27.960 I mean, we've lost our minds.

00:00:30.880 Katherine Burblesing, welcome back to the show for the nth time.

00:00:34.080 I don't know how many times you've been on here before.

00:00:36.320 I have to say, you are literally the least troublemaker of all our guests, I think.

00:00:42.040 That's not so much.

00:00:42.960 That is not... Well, I don't know about that.

00:00:44.880 I think we have some pretty controversial people on regularly.

00:00:47.440 But you are the person that I least expect to be causing trouble out there and whatever.

00:00:52.000 And yet here you are, your school is being sued all over the national newspapers.

00:00:56.240 What's going on?

00:00:57.640 Well, we're being sued for a prayer room.

00:01:02.760 One of the children would like one and we don't have one.

00:01:06.960 Although we've never had one.

00:01:08.120 We opened in 2014 and we've been going ever since.

00:01:12.640 And of course, we're known for being very strict.

00:01:14.760 Michaela is in Wembley in London in the inner city and we have a typical inner city intake.

00:01:22.400 And I'm considered to be Britain's strictest headmistress.

00:01:25.720 You admit it, you like that label, don't you?

00:01:27.520 Well, you know, if you type into Google, who is the strictest teacher in the world?

00:01:32.640 Well, my name comes up.

00:01:33.960 So, we have very strict rules and because of those rules and the building, it's just not

00:01:41.960 really possible to have prayer rooms.

00:01:44.960 Because we've got 350 Muslims, obviously one prayer room wouldn't be enough. 1.00

00:01:50.080 So, we'd have to have several rooms and because of our logistics and so on, it's just not possible.

00:01:56.080 So, we've always said from the beginning that we don't have prayer rooms because it isn't possible.

00:02:00.080 And, you know, the families understand that and they sign up anyway and they send us their children.

00:02:05.360 And why is it, sorry, just to finish this, that seems like a fairly normal thing.

00:02:11.520 Why has this become such a big deal in the public conversation now?

00:02:14.960 Why are people talking about it?

00:02:16.240 Because it seems like a fairly routine standard thing.

00:02:18.320 You sort it out, you go to court, blah, blah, blah, you know, whatever.

00:02:21.360 But it's become a big talking point in the kind of broader culture.

00:02:24.640 Why do you think that is?

00:02:25.520 Well, because we're going to court.

00:02:27.840 People feel that it's wrong for a child to take the school to court for this reason.

00:02:34.480 I suppose people feel that schools ought to be allowed to be secular places.

00:02:43.680 And we are very much a secular school.

00:02:47.360 We are also a very multicultural school, multi-faith, multi-race, multi-everything.

00:02:53.360 And we we are asking all the various different groups in the school to make sacrifices for the betterment of the whole.

00:03:02.560 So this is what this is really about, Kat.

00:03:04.240 And this is kind of why I was asking you the question, because you're someone who, because of your own background and because of the background of the kids that you've got under your leadership, essentially, at your school, you understand that in order for different races and different groups to work together, they all have to subscribe to a bigger thing.

00:03:21.600 That's right.

00:03:23.600 And you are against the idea of dividing people by skin color, religion, et cetera.

00:03:28.720 That's right.

00:03:29.280 And you know that the society we live in doesn't seem to want that to be the case.

00:03:33.920 And isn't that really why we are sitting here talking about this?

00:03:37.920 Well, possibly.

00:03:38.560 I mean, there is the court case.

00:03:39.840 So, you know, and that obviously people, you know, there's some people who would very much want us to win it and some people who want us to lose it.

00:03:49.600 And when I say the different groups, so, yes, you're right that in many schools, you'll find that there is the LGBT group or there's the black Caribbean group or there's the Hindu group and so on.

00:04:05.600 And we don't do that.

00:04:07.560 We consider all our children to be British and I think often ethnic minorities are denied the opportunity to call themselves British by both the right and the left politically.

00:04:19.320 The left, because they insist that actually ethnic minorities are from somewhere else, you know, when actually we're all British and we should all be able to call ourselves British.

00:04:30.080 So we sing God save the king and I've added thee my country.

00:04:33.680 And, you know, we we stand for the headmistress and we're very traditional in our approach.

00:04:38.480 And so it isn't just that we don't have prayer rooms because people then say to me, oh, well, you don't like Islam.

00:04:44.940 No, that's not the case.

00:04:45.920 We're trying to make everything work for everyone.

00:04:48.080 So we have Macbeth as one of our GCSE texts.

00:04:53.600 It has witches in it. 1.00

00:04:55.220 The Jehovah Witnesses don't like that. 0.98

00:04:57.200 It's against their religion.

00:04:58.540 But they put up with it because, well, that's what we've got.

00:05:02.300 Some of the Hindus have said, oh, you know, we don't like the fact that at lunch the eggs touch the plates.

00:05:08.480 We'd like our own plates, but that would mean separating the Hindus. 1.00

00:05:11.480 So I'm not doing that.

00:05:12.940 And they put up with it.

00:05:14.900 All of the different groups have to make sacrifices in order for us all to get on.

00:05:19.460 And one way in which this showed itself right at the beginning when we opened up in 2014, we opened as a normal school with meat in the in the canteen.

00:05:28.820 And we do a family lunch where all the children, they sit in groups of six.

00:05:33.180 They always have a set seat.

00:05:34.820 One serves the food.

00:05:36.380 The other pours the water.

00:05:37.520 One of them cleans up afterwards.

00:05:39.780 It's a lovely, I always call it the beating heart of the school.

00:05:42.260 It's wonderful.

00:05:43.300 And we do this with the understanding that we're socializing the children.

00:05:50.300 It's one of the things we do at Michaela.

00:05:51.940 And so people sort of say, well, it's their free time.

00:05:54.260 They can do what they want at lunch.

00:05:55.760 Well, we don't believe in that.

00:05:57.460 We believe that all of the time that they're in school, we're doing something with them, actually.

00:06:01.400 And so this family lunch, there are different children on the tables eating the food.

00:06:09.400 Some are Muslim, some are Hindu, some are black, some are white, and so on.

00:06:13.100 When we first started, we asked the children, well, what do you eat?

00:06:18.520 You know, and some said, I eat meat, but no pork, because I'm a Muslim.

00:06:21.740 I mean, I eat meat, but no beef, because I'm a Hindu, and so on.

00:06:24.740 When we placed them out accordingly in the dining hall, I looked at the space and said,

00:06:29.820 we've just divided the children according to race and religion.

00:06:32.620 We can't do that.

00:06:34.000 We're going to have to go vegetarian, and that way everyone can sit next to each other,

00:06:37.960 and we can make friendships across the racial and religious divides.

00:06:42.720 And so we've always been vegetarian for that reason.

00:06:45.060 So we're all sacrificing, because the vast majority of children would like to eat meat,

00:06:48.820 but everyone doesn't eat meat in order to make sure that we are all friends with each other.

00:06:57.900 And that's one of the things, the beauty of Michaela, is that, you know,

00:07:05.080 we don't have issues between groups.

00:07:08.360 You know, you might visit some other inner city schools.

00:07:11.240 You will find fights happening between the racial groups, between the religious groups.

00:07:15.640 You'll find big issues that happen outside of school, between these groupings.

00:07:21.200 Whereas at Michaela, they are friends across those divides.

00:07:24.860 And that is because we are socializing them in that way all the time.

00:07:28.720 And what is quite sad is that, and this is for both the right and the left politically,

00:07:34.500 the left feel that actually we should just be always celebrating diversity,

00:07:40.020 and that there's nothing to unify us at all.

00:07:42.820 And while, obviously, I'm all for some diversity, you know, we eat different foods,

00:07:49.720 we might go to churches and mosques and temples and so on, and that's fine,

00:07:54.260 but we also need to find things that unite us.

00:07:57.160 And the cohesion of a community in a school, for me, is really important.

00:08:01.940 Now, obviously, if you're in a school where things are a lot more relaxed,

00:08:06.320 and, you know, children do what they like at lunchtime,

00:08:10.980 and they roam around the corridors, and they can go in out of classrooms,

00:08:16.320 then clearly you might want to have a prayer room, and that's fine.

00:08:19.200 You know, I'm not saying that no school should have a prayer room.

00:08:22.060 I'm saying it can't work for us, given the nature of our family lunch,

00:08:25.900 given the nature of our corridors.

00:08:27.300 We walk in silence in the corridors.

00:08:29.540 The children are not allowed to roam freely.

00:08:31.300 They all go outside together.

00:08:33.760 So, and then when they're outside, we are making sure that everyone is mixing.

00:08:39.560 If there's a child being left out, we're bringing him back into the fold,

00:08:43.060 which is why, you know, bullying is an absolute minimum,

00:08:46.840 and if we were to find something, we would stamp it out immediately.

00:08:50.620 And that's why our children are so happy and why it's such a lovely place to be.

00:08:54.280 And that, for me, you know, is the beautiful thing about Michaela.

00:09:00.220 I mean, Michaela, sure, last two years we've had the highest progress eight,

00:09:03.720 meaning that we've been the top school in terms of, in the whole country,

00:09:07.100 of the 4,000 odd secondary schools there are, in the whole country,

00:09:10.360 we, from year seven right through year 11, when they take the GCSEs,

00:09:13.940 the last two years, they have made the most progress at our school

00:09:16.640 in comparison to anywhere else.

00:09:18.200 And so people say, oh, the results, the results.

00:09:20.400 And I've always said, the thing I'm most happy about, most proud of,

00:09:24.360 is not the results, it's who our children are and who they are amongst each other.

00:09:29.720 And so the left want to just celebrate this whole diversity thing

00:09:33.840 and let's separate everybody into groups and how do you identify

00:09:37.520 and which group do you belong to, which I think is the wrong way to go.

00:09:41.740 And then you've got the right, I just read this article actually,

00:09:44.300 where someone arguing from the right against us,

00:09:49.600 saying that we're having to do peacekeeping

00:09:53.240 amongst all these groups who hate each other.

00:09:56.180 That just isn't true.

00:09:57.640 You know, as adults with children, whether you're parents or teachers,

00:10:02.700 it's our role to help to socialise them,

00:10:06.340 to be good citizens and good people.

00:10:09.140 That's what we should be doing.

00:10:10.680 And that's what we are doing at Michaela.

00:10:12.920 We're not keeping the peace between groups that hate each other.

00:10:16.280 You're teaching kids not to hate each other and to be friends with each other.

00:10:20.140 That's what you're doing.

00:10:20.840 And we're teaching.

00:10:21.920 So this guy who was writing was saying, you know, we don't want multiculturalism.

00:10:26.060 You know, forget multiculturalism. 0.99

00:10:27.740 Now, multiculturalism is division, which often it is. 0.93

00:10:31.280 You know, so I understand why people on the right will say that

00:10:34.920 of some multicultural situations.

00:10:36.880 I get that.

00:10:38.560 But if we can make it so that we understand each other

00:10:42.640 and we all understand this idea of sacrificing for the whole

00:10:46.260 and that everyone sacrifices, whatever it may be,

00:10:50.780 why is this a bad thing?

00:10:53.000 What I don't understand on the right is that they just go on.

00:10:55.800 Multiculturalism has failed. 1.00

00:10:56.520 It's failed.

00:10:56.900 It's failed.

00:10:57.520 What are you going to do?

00:10:58.120 Get all of us out of the country?

00:10:59.320 I mean, is that what you're doing?

00:11:00.120 I mean, I don't understand what your solution is.

00:11:02.060 My solution is that with children, we teach them how to be kind to each other.

00:11:09.740 Because even when you have a group of white children, 0.96

00:11:12.640 they'll pick on the smaller one.

00:11:14.540 They'll pick on the one with the ginger hair. 0.99

00:11:16.580 They'll pick on the one.

00:11:17.380 Like, that's always the case.

00:11:19.980 The fact is children need to be taught how to get on with each other

00:11:23.420 and how to like each other.

00:11:25.040 And obviously you do that in the confines of what you, you know,

00:11:28.580 as the head, we are very strict.

00:11:30.680 So our very strict rules prevent wandering around classrooms

00:11:35.060 and corridors and so on.

00:11:36.700 Our ethos is such that prayer rooms simply wouldn't work.

00:11:41.680 The building is also extremely restrictive.

00:11:43.920 You can't, when we do our family lunch,

00:11:46.800 I can't dismiss all of the Muslim children upstairs to pray 1.00

00:11:49.420 and all of the non-Muslim children outside.

00:11:52.060 Like, that is to divide according to race and religion.

00:11:54.060 And I will never divide the children according to race and religion.

00:11:56.760 I don't believe in that.

00:11:57.980 Um, so that's why we're fighting this.

00:12:02.360 Um, now, and the other thing that this guy said in this article

00:12:05.160 that so annoyed me was that he was saying,

00:12:07.140 well, it's obviously failed at Michaela.

00:12:09.300 Multiculturalism obviously fails. 1.00

00:12:10.740 Like, no, it hasn't failed.

00:12:13.080 We, we've, we've been going for 10 years.

00:12:15.420 Um, yes, there is one family that's doing this.

00:12:19.480 But on the other night, we had a year 11 parents evening,

00:12:22.840 packed, 100% attendance, all of them there.

00:12:25.640 That massive hall filled with everyone.

00:12:28.320 Um, it was the day that I was on the cover of the evening standard.

00:12:32.460 The parents actually had, some of them had copies of it

00:12:34.720 and they were in their bags and so on.

00:12:36.520 Not one of them said anything about the issues

00:12:39.480 that have been going on in the press,

00:12:40.540 about the school, about the court case, about any of it.

00:12:42.800 Not one of them.

00:12:43.860 We talked about GCSEs.

00:12:45.060 We talked about working hard.

00:12:46.460 We talked about how we support our kids at home.

00:12:48.780 Um, my, my teachers were telling me how parents were hugging them

00:12:52.060 and thanking them for all of their hard work.

00:12:54.060 And this is 50% Muslim population in the, in the room, you know?

00:12:58.000 Like, so this idea that it's impossible for Muslims

00:13:02.280 to, uh, get on with other people who are not Muslim. 0.94

00:13:05.820 It's just, it's a nonsense, you know?

00:13:07.620 The fact is that our children and our families

00:13:10.940 have gone on for many years and everything's gone well.

00:13:14.480 So to just take this one situation and say,

00:13:18.140 well, there you go, it's failed.

00:13:20.040 It hasn't failed.

00:13:21.000 In fact, we succeed every single day,

00:13:23.560 not just in terms of the results,

00:13:25.220 but in terms of the people who, who they are.

00:13:27.680 And so I criticize the right for saying that.

00:13:30.900 And then I criticize the left who then say to me,

00:13:33.420 well, unless you provide all these prayer rooms

00:13:35.200 and abolish your ethos,

00:13:36.760 and we'd have to move the bags and the coats out of the rooms.

00:13:39.900 We'd have to move all the furniture

00:13:41.400 and the kids would have to be doing it daily.

00:13:43.540 We would have total chaos in my view.

00:13:46.240 In some people's view, it would be fine.

00:13:48.040 It'd be more of a normal school,

00:13:49.660 but it wouldn't be our strict school.

00:13:51.460 We wouldn't have 800 visitors coming to the school anymore every year

00:13:54.300 because we do.

00:13:55.120 We have 800 visitors coming to look, to say,

00:13:57.680 wow, this is such an amazing place.

00:13:59.560 We would have to abandon everything that we are

00:14:02.120 in order to provide these prayer rooms.

00:14:04.440 Now, I think it's wrong to expect us to do that.

00:14:07.920 I think that, obviously, look, we're a very different school.

00:14:11.640 At the beginning, when families come to find out about us,

00:14:16.900 I tell them.

00:14:17.740 I don't just tell them about the lack of prayer room.

00:14:20.260 I tell them that we have silent corridors.

00:14:22.020 I tell them that the kids have family lunch.

00:14:24.880 I tell them they all go outside and they play in this way and so on.

00:14:27.720 I explain all the differences that make us different from other schools

00:14:31.880 because, as I always say to them,

00:14:34.360 look, when you go to a shop and you buy a KitKat,

00:14:36.800 you want to get home and find a KitKat in your bag.

00:14:39.120 You don't want to find a Mars bar.

00:14:40.660 So I'm going to tell you everything that you might not like about the school

00:14:43.940 and then it's up to you, right?

00:14:47.160 And if you decide to come on board,

00:14:49.280 well, you need to come on board with everything that we are, you know?

00:14:52.220 Now...

00:14:52.540 And to me, Catherine, that seems absolutely fair enough.

00:14:56.040 And for everybody listening, they can have a drink

00:14:57.860 because I'm going to say the words,

00:14:59.040 I used to be a teacher.

00:15:00.080 I get it.

00:15:00.700 I get it.

00:15:01.420 I get everything.

00:15:02.400 I really support what you do.

00:15:04.100 I always thought that that is the most effective way to run a school.

00:15:08.040 The more structure that you have,

00:15:09.720 particularly for kids who lack structure

00:15:11.540 outside of the educational establishment,

00:15:13.860 they crave it and they need it.

00:15:16.040 And it sounds and it looks like the school is a roaring success.

00:15:20.420 At what point did you notice that you actually had a problem here?

00:15:24.300 Okay, that's a very good question.

00:15:26.040 So never had a prayer room.

00:15:28.360 The kids have always been fine with that.

00:15:30.100 There's never been an issue.

00:15:32.120 And then last year, during Ramadan,

00:15:35.220 in the yard, a few kids decided to pray.

00:15:38.960 Now, we've always said that prayer would be allowed in the yard for the kids.

00:15:43.180 These are the lower school kids.

00:15:44.500 We've always said prayer would be allowed,

00:15:46.540 but nobody chosen to pray in the yard.

00:15:49.100 And so it was always, which just wasn't an issue before.

00:15:52.680 I have to say it wasn't an issue when they first started praying either.

00:15:55.520 It's fine.

00:15:55.980 It was allowed.

00:15:56.560 We didn't, you know, it was fine.

00:15:59.580 But then there was an incident where some children were badly behaved around the prayer.

00:16:08.040 And a petition started up online.

00:16:11.660 Now, the children apparently were not involved in this.

00:16:15.280 I'm assuming people from outside were.

00:16:17.020 People could see through the gates, you know, what's going on outside.

00:16:20.740 And of course, if the children are praying in the yard, then, well, why don't they have a prayer room?

00:16:25.240 So there was this petition that started up demanding a prayer room.

00:16:28.940 Thousands of people signed it.

00:16:30.780 Now, none of this got into the main press at the time.

00:16:32.780 And we were very grateful.

00:16:35.200 You know, we had a media ban on this, actually, for all this time since those events until now.

00:16:42.120 When you say we, the judge banned this from being discussed.

00:16:45.340 Just to be clear, so people don't think the strictest headmistress in the world has banned the media.

00:16:50.760 No, no, no.

00:16:51.620 We'd gone to court and managed to get a media ban, which was then lifted last week in court, which is why suddenly we've been thrown into the press.

00:17:00.180 I was desperate for it to remain because some people who criticize me say, oh, well, she obviously just wants to be in the news. 0.80

00:17:05.640 No, no, no.

00:17:06.360 We were arguing to keep that ban.

00:17:08.560 Now, we were very lucky when this happened because we didn't end up in the media and it only stayed online.

00:17:15.520 But even when I say online, on social media, a few blogs were written.

00:17:19.740 There were some videos made on TikTok and that kind of thing.

00:17:23.560 Now, because of this petition and because of the furore that happened online, we then started getting death threats and all kinds of abuse.

00:17:32.580 One of my teachers, black teacher, got horribly racially abused, you know, being called the N-word, the C-word, compared to a monkey, all kinds of horrible, horrible things.

00:17:42.420 And I'm talking 15 to 20, you know, commons, you know, it's not just one thing. 0.51

00:17:49.420 There were the death threats.

00:17:50.500 There was the bomb threat.

00:17:52.080 The police had to come and search the school for bombs one morning.

00:17:56.120 Both that teacher of mine and me, we had to take, you know, lifts into school and so on because we were frightened to travel.

00:18:06.240 One of my teachers had her an attempted break in at her flat.

00:18:10.700 One of my teachers had a brick thrown through her window. 1.00

00:18:13.880 We had bottles thrown into the yard.

00:18:16.280 There was loads of intimidation and aggression.

00:18:18.920 That was all coming from the outside.

00:18:20.180 We had to hire security.

00:18:22.120 The police were outside often.

00:18:24.460 And it was a terrifying time.

00:18:26.360 We also had to close the school early, just before the holidays, because we were meant to go out on some school trips and they just couldn't happen.

00:18:32.860 It was awful.

00:18:35.900 When was this, Catherine?

00:18:37.380 So this was about March last year.

00:18:39.200 March last year.

00:18:39.900 And during Ramadan.

00:18:42.640 Now, what was also interesting was what happened at school, which was that.

00:18:48.660 So during Ramadan, some of the children, some of the Muslim children fast, some of them don't. 0.99

00:18:54.420 Obviously, we have Muslim children who cover their heads. 1.00

00:18:57.060 Some of them don't.

00:18:59.400 And obviously, we had some children who prayed and some of them did not.

00:19:02.120 But what happened was that the culture changed over the days this was happening.

00:19:08.080 And the children who were praying, some of them would then go to the break hall food table and intimidate the other ones who were not fasting because they chose not to fast for whatever reason.

00:19:22.260 They're Muslim, they're Muslim, but they don't want to fast. 1.00

00:19:24.620 And they were made to feel, I suppose, as if they were, you know, doing something wrong by not fasting.

00:19:31.140 And so they were intimidated into fasting and they weren't able to take the food.

00:19:36.020 A girl, one girl, she was suddenly started wearing a hijab, even though she didn't wear one before.

00:19:40.760 One girl dropped out of the choir because music is considered haram.

00:19:45.940 All of these things, more children started praying, more children started praying and so on.

00:19:50.320 And the intimidation, so there was the horrible intimidation and aggression that was happening outside.

00:19:55.280 But then there was the intimidation that was happening between the children.

00:19:58.760 Now, the thing is, it's my duty as headmistress to protect all the children, not just one particular group.

00:20:05.120 So this includes the Muslim children who are being intimidated.

00:20:08.260 But it also includes everyone, you know, so that everyone can feel happy and comfortable in our environment.

00:20:14.320 So the governors took the decision to ban prayer because, obviously, of what had happened.

00:20:21.340 And we were in danger. I mean, our lives were literally in danger.

00:20:25.660 So prayer was banned.

00:20:27.680 And, you know, it was fascinating because as soon as that happened and prayer stopped, everything just went back to normal.

00:20:33.740 The children were happy again.

00:20:34.940 And everything was fine and calm and lovely and everyone was mixing across the races.

00:20:41.100 It was just it that incident, that time totally transformed the school into something that wasn't very nice.

00:20:49.620 And so, yeah, we're fighting for, you know, the right to be able to run the school as we see fit, really.

00:20:57.060 Which is, of course, and I'm fully in agreement that you should be able to do that.

00:21:01.600 When did you know that there was a court case looming?

00:21:07.720 Well, I suppose it was soon after the time in March that we knew that that was happening.

00:21:16.940 Now, of course, all of that, it takes ages before you actually get to court.

00:21:19.780 And then there was this media ban, so nobody was writing about us.

00:21:27.120 I think a couple of articles appeared in the last year in the papers, but they just talked generally about a school somewhere in Britain, you know.

00:21:35.280 So it wasn't us.

00:21:37.220 And then on Tuesday last week, we had the case in the courts and I was there.

00:21:42.500 And our barrister was arguing to keep the ban because of the death threats and so on.

00:21:50.200 But, I mean, the judge has a hard job.

00:21:53.000 He's trying to weigh up our interests against the interests of the public.

00:21:58.880 And he was saying, well, this is of the interest.

00:22:01.360 It's in the interest of the public to read about this.

00:22:04.000 Various members of the press stood up and made their case for why they thought it should be made public.

00:22:08.340 Our barrister made the case for why it would be dangerous for us.

00:22:11.520 The judge, in the end, decided that the family should not be named and that the teachers should not be named, but that I and the school should be named.

00:22:22.800 Now, I mean, ultimately, if you name the school, you name me.

00:22:25.960 So I get it.

00:22:27.880 And so he threw us into the limelight and I have been defending our decision to ban prayer.

00:22:36.480 Because, obviously, if we don't, well, you can imagine we lose the narrative and nobody really understands why we've done what we've done.

00:22:44.280 So we've been out.

00:22:46.100 I've been out just explaining that on some of the news outlets and so on.

00:22:49.860 And that must be really quite stressful because when you look at the situation, you're talking about banning prayer.

00:23:01.140 That would significantly rile a certain percentage of the Muslim community. 0.97

00:23:09.260 Have you ever felt worried about your own particular safety now that you've been thrust into the limelight?

00:23:14.700 Yeah. So it was very bad last year.

00:23:18.040 This year, we've had one, I think, to the school threat.

00:23:24.200 Although my PA was saying, oh, Catherine, I just haven't been sending you stuff.

00:23:28.480 So I don't know what there is.

00:23:31.820 And then also online, there are things that get said.

00:23:34.240 And so, yes, when I'm on the tube and so on, I'm looking around me.

00:23:39.300 I am worried.

00:23:41.660 I do have to be careful because it only takes one crazy person, you know, and that's it.

00:23:49.740 So it's, yeah, that is a worry.

00:23:53.400 I also understand that it is, I certainly understand now since, you know, when the judge was saying, I was so angry with him when he lifted the ban.

00:24:03.720 And I was thinking, how can it be that, you know, our lives are at stake here and that you're lifting this ban?

00:24:08.820 But having seen the amount of public interest that there's been since, I sort of think, well, maybe he was right.

00:24:15.300 You know, he's making a judgment without the emotion tied up in it, which I'm obviously feeling and the fear that I feel.

00:24:24.820 So you can hear my voice is gone.

00:24:28.780 So it has been a very stressful time.

00:24:33.220 But, I mean, it has been the case, and you guys have known me, you know, since a long time ago.

00:24:40.320 I've always had to fight for the school.

00:24:42.240 People have been fighting us ever since we, well, from before we established.

00:24:47.120 It took us three and a half years to establish because so many detractors were stopping us from opening the school.

00:24:54.520 We've been, people have protested outside before, trying to stop us from, well, having the kids when we first started,

00:25:03.300 claiming that the kids were in danger in the building and all sorts of nonsense with placards insulting me and shouting abuse at me and so on.

00:25:12.240 And before we opened, we would have parent evenings where we'd be telling people about this new school and people would, they would bus people in from out of London.

00:25:24.860 I mean, this is the thing that was so crazy.

00:25:26.320 And so we tried to open the school originally in Brixton, and we had an event at a pub.

00:25:33.160 And I was handing out all these flyers to all these black mums at the market and down, you know, the various mosques and churches and so on.

00:25:40.720 And they all came, and there were all these white people who were standing outside with placards, calling me a Tory teacher and shouting abuse at me.

00:25:51.900 We had to hire bouncers for the possible violence that might ensue from this whole thing.

00:25:56.420 And so these are the left who supposedly care about ethnic minorities, having a great education.

00:26:03.460 Here we are trying to provide an excellent education, and they are campaigning against, now I say the left.

00:26:09.000 This is the extreme left, obviously.

00:26:10.640 You know, there's lots of very sensible people on the left.

00:26:12.380 And, you know, there was one event that we had where one woman, because I had spoken at the Conservative Party conference in 2010, which is what threw me in the limelight in the first place.

00:26:24.800 And I'm not a conservative.

00:26:25.900 I'm not a member of the Conservative Party.

00:26:27.480 I do call myself a small C conservative, but I would argue that many of the big C conservatives are not small C conservatives.

00:26:33.220 Yep.

00:26:33.360 But when I spoke at that Conservative Party conference, this made people very angry.

00:26:41.040 And I would argue that that has to do with being an ethnic minority woman, that you're not allowed to have views that are conservative.

00:26:49.380 You have to vote on the left.

00:26:50.580 You have to think on the left.

00:26:51.820 You know, and if you don't, people get very, very angry about it.

00:26:54.940 And I remember one woman at one of our events, she stood up, because often they would stand up and shout when we were trying to talk to the parents in order to drown us out.

00:27:02.840 So the parents wouldn't be able to hear what we were saying.

00:27:04.960 She stood up and said, you betrayed us when you went to speak at the Conservative Party conference.

00:27:10.080 And I thought, but I don't even know who you are.

00:27:13.940 What do you mean I betrayed you?

00:27:16.000 But I think what she meant was you as who you are, you're an ethnic minority woman. 0.84

00:27:20.500 You are meant to be with us on this, fighting the evil conservatives.

00:27:24.960 And then you went to their conference and you dared speak there, you know.

00:27:29.180 So, and I did dare speak there.

00:27:32.280 Because I think for myself, you know, I don't agree with the conservatives on everything, obviously.

00:27:36.380 Sometimes, I don't know, Keir Starmer says something I agree with.

00:27:38.700 I absolutely hate what Rishi Sunak is saying about the British advanced standard and getting rid of A-levels and so on.

00:27:45.880 I mean, I'm completely against that.

00:27:48.440 And I've written about it.

00:27:49.940 I mean, the fact is, if you think for yourself, then you might agree with something the Labour Party says.

00:27:58.140 You might agree with something the Conservative Party says.

00:28:00.200 You know, I am a small C Conservative.

00:28:01.660 What does that mean?

00:28:02.200 And these are, well, these are values that we give the kids at the school, which I think really make us what we are.

00:28:10.280 Well, and it's one of the reasons I think all of these things that you're saying, Catherine, is since we met you and found more out about Michaela, I've personally found you inspiring.

00:28:19.060 And you're someone I really admire because you're someone who's consistently willing to stick up for the things that she knows are right, even when it's difficult as it is in this case.

00:28:29.240 And you attract a lot of negative publicity and all sorts of, you know, very unfortunate threats and so on, which, you know, I hope, obviously, we all don't materialize in any way.

00:28:38.640 And obviously, it shouldn't be happening in the first place.

00:28:41.880 But I think, as you say, the reason this story has attracted as much of public commentaries, it sort of feels a little bit like a test case for all the things that you alluded to earlier for both left and right, because the right has now gone into a kind of reactionary position to some extent, where it's like multiculturalism has failed, which it has.

00:29:02.000 We should acknowledge this, right?

00:29:03.120 The idea that we should divide people according to the very issues that you just talked about, you know, the white person standing up and going, you betrayed us.

00:29:10.400 That's not a multiracial society like ours cannot be made to work. 1.00

00:29:15.460 I agree.

00:29:15.780 And so you can obviously, we all understand the frustrations people feel.

00:29:19.340 However, the answer to that has to be to advocate on a national level what you've instituted at Michaela, which is, look, I don't care if you're Muslim. 0.99

00:29:29.560 I don't care if you're Hindu. 1.00

00:29:30.940 I don't care if you're black, brown, white, whatever. 0.82

00:29:33.120 We're all here under one roof, and we're all going to pull in the same direction and work together because we're all Michaela students or because we're all British or because we're all American or whatever that label is.

00:29:43.040 And everyone has to sacrifice.

00:29:44.900 And it can't just be me, me, me, my group, my group over everyone else.

00:29:48.840 Right.

00:29:49.660 That's it in a nutshell.

00:29:50.680 That's it in a nutshell.

00:29:51.920 And so that's kind of where I think the right is misread.

00:29:55.020 It's not the right.

00:29:56.760 It's some people on the right.

00:29:57.900 Well, true.

00:29:59.220 But the thing is, like, one of the things, look, I do think for myself.

00:30:02.120 So I come on a show where I know there are going to be lots of right wing people talking and I say, you know what?

00:30:06.680 There is such a thing as racism because I think there is.

00:30:08.820 And when I'm saying, look, I think ethnic minorities like me, there's a reason why Suala Braverman and Priti Patel and Kemi Bader not get the hatred that they get.

00:30:17.080 But it's intense.

00:30:18.740 And it's so intense because they're women of colour who say the things that they say and they're not allowed to say them. 1.00

00:30:23.640 They're not allowed to be on the right.

00:30:25.040 And I'm not saying that I agree with everything they say.

00:30:27.120 You know, I am not part of the Conservative Party.

00:30:28.940 But the fact is that we should be able to think for ourselves.

00:30:33.680 And ethnic minorities are not allowed to. 1.00

00:30:35.180 And there's a real problem with that.

00:30:37.000 Well, actually, no one is allowed to anyone.

00:30:38.540 This was where I was going because I think so with the right, there is that overreaction where, yes, multiculturalism hasn't worked.

00:30:46.340 But the solution is to create a multi-ethnic society that works because we are a multi-ethnic society.

00:30:51.880 You're not going to get away from that.

00:30:53.160 Well, that's it.

00:30:53.580 What are they going to do?

00:30:54.180 Put me on a boat and send me to Jamaica?

00:30:55.580 Exactly. 0.99

00:30:55.760 I mean, this is ridiculous.

00:30:56.960 But the left also has an issue with what you are doing for the precise reasons that they oppose the very thing that you cherish, which is everybody coming together and working together. 0.67

00:31:08.160 And being British.

00:31:09.280 And being British.

00:31:10.140 They want to split everybody apart and say, you're this group, you're that group.

00:31:13.460 We can look at your skin colour and say, these are the opinions you should have and this is your level of oppression and blah, blah, blah. 1.00

00:31:18.100 But that's why it seems to me this case has got the attention that it's got because you're standing up for a very important principle against, frankly, what some people might interpret as the expression of an intolerant minority view of which there are different versions from all sides.

00:31:36.800 Yeah.

00:31:37.100 Although I wouldn't say that it's so minority these days.

00:31:40.360 I mean, what I mean is people don't sort of realise it, you know, just everyone sort of thinks in that divisive way.

00:31:45.580 You know, so I would say in 1995 we had far better race relations than we do now, you know, because everybody now just sees colour because that's all anybody ever talks about.

00:31:55.780 So I have people who say to me, would you like to join our board because we really need a diverse board?

00:32:01.740 Do you slap them because you shouldn't?

00:32:03.420 Well, and I think to myself, do you know all that I've achieved?

00:32:06.660 Do you know anything about me?

00:32:08.020 Like, I don't understand how you look at me and all you see is brown skin. 0.99

00:32:11.440 That's all you see, you know.

00:32:12.900 I don't understand that.

00:32:14.120 And the thing is because the, well, I say because, look, for some people I see some of the comments on there about, you know, when I'm trying to defend us, you know, and some of the comments against Muslims or Muslim children.

00:32:30.380 And I just think this is all wrong.

00:32:33.840 You know, so I'm not just saying racism comes just from the left.

00:32:36.120 It also comes from the right.

00:32:37.060 And some of the comments that I see, I just think, no, no, no, no, no.

00:32:40.380 Look, I'm the one being taken to court, right?

00:32:43.780 You can't talk like this, you know.

00:32:45.860 Now, like, because as I say, we had our year 11 parents evening and we had a group, a mixed group of people in there, Muslims and Hindus, black and white, all types.

00:32:58.280 And everybody was there together.

00:33:00.040 And when I say about the thing about being British, I think that's important.

00:33:03.540 It's the one thing that we have in common.

00:33:05.200 Now, the right can keep, you know, more of the extreme right can keep campaigning about, well, multiculturalism fails and we need to get rid of these people.

00:33:12.560 Fine.

00:33:13.300 That's not really a solution as far as I'm concerned.

00:33:14.780 That's not going to work.

00:33:15.700 Exactly.

00:33:16.900 We, children, look, the number one thing everybody needs to understand is the importance of schools.

00:33:21.160 This is all I keep saying is the importance of schools and nobody listens to me and nobody cares about schools.

00:33:27.600 People sort of think, rich people think, it's all right, I'll just get my kid into a private school and he'll be okay.

00:33:33.420 People tend to panic when their child is in year six and they're worried about where they're going to get their child to for secondary school.

00:33:38.740 And once he's in the secondary school and he seems okay, they leave it.

00:33:42.720 People don't seem to realize that schools are not just engines of social nobility.

00:33:48.580 They're also engines of social cohesion, right?

00:33:52.380 And it's there that children become who they're going to be as adults and their families and their schools are what play the most important role in making them into who they're going to be.

00:34:06.180 And if we want to have a future for the country, we must look to our schools.

00:34:14.580 Nobody cares about the schools.

00:34:15.680 So the pundits, you know, like you and whoever, you know, we once had Jordan Peterson come to our school and I said to him, why do you never talk about schools?

00:34:24.180 Because he never does.

00:34:25.420 Now, since he came, I noticed he does mention schools a little bit more.

00:34:28.660 He's probably terrified of you, Catherine, right, if you said that to me.

00:34:32.460 But he said, oh, I don't know.

00:34:34.840 I don't know.

00:34:35.200 And I said, because you don't care about them.

00:34:36.260 That's why nobody cares about schools.

00:34:37.980 Nobody talks about them.

00:34:38.640 It should be mandatory.

00:34:39.980 All of you guys should be forced to be talking about schools all the time.

00:34:42.780 Because they are the future to our country.

00:34:47.040 Absolutely.

00:34:47.640 You know, and so and the only time people get interested really in schools is when it's an issue around gender.

00:34:53.220 Then everybody's going, oh, what's going on in schools?

00:34:55.000 Or it's an issue about critical race theory being taught.

00:34:57.460 Oh, what's going on in schools?

00:34:58.820 And look, I'm glad.

00:35:00.240 I'm glad.

00:35:00.720 To be honest, I'm almost grateful for those recent changes.

00:35:04.600 I am.

00:35:05.260 I'm almost grateful.

00:35:06.120 Because people are at least paying attention.

00:35:07.240 People are suddenly looking at schools.

00:35:08.900 I have been shouting about this for 15 years.

00:35:11.820 Nobody's been listening.

00:35:12.980 And the reason why critical race theory and gender studies and all this sort of stuff has been happening in schools is because children have been leading the learning for 20, 30 years.

00:35:22.100 Now, what do I mean by that?

00:35:23.900 Child-centered learning as opposed to teacher-led learning.

00:35:27.340 We have lost who?

00:35:28.820 Where have the adults gone?

00:35:30.300 Right?

00:35:31.000 The adults need to be in a position of authority in the front of the classroom leading the learning.

00:35:35.780 For many years now, I say 20 or 30, it's actually been longer than that.

00:35:38.940 Really, since the 60s, this has been happening.

00:35:42.340 Child-centered learning has embedded itself in our schools.

00:35:45.300 What that means is children are in groups.

00:35:48.040 They are leading what they are doing.

00:35:50.360 And the teacher is the facilitator of learning, moving amongst the desks, keeping the children on task.

00:35:56.160 The teacher is no longer the authority leading the way.

00:35:59.180 I always say the teacher should be driving the bus, and you're keeping the children on the bus with you, and you decide where you're going.

00:36:05.500 You set the standards of the discipline.

00:36:07.540 The leadership team at the school runs and leads the culture of the school.

00:36:13.940 What people often don't understand about our school is when they're talking about the situation, about prayer, they say, well, it's five minutes.

00:36:21.880 What difference does it make?

00:36:23.000 It's their free time.

00:36:24.140 They can do what they like.

00:36:25.080 So what?

00:36:25.480 Well, look, in our school, there really is no free time in a way, you know?

00:36:31.760 Yes, they're playing basketball, and yes, they're chatting to each other, but the teachers are all there, and they're all making sure that we are being socialized in a way that means that eventually, when we let the little birdies fly, they are good citizens.

00:36:45.380 And they are people that we can be proud of, you know?

00:36:49.220 There's one of my deputies once gave me this quote, which says, you can be friends with your children when they are children or when they are adults.

00:36:57.360 You cannot be both, right?

00:36:59.520 And the same goes for parents.

00:37:01.340 Parents who want to be friends with their kids.

00:37:03.080 You can't be friends with your kids.

00:37:04.420 You're meant to be in charge of them.

00:37:05.660 You're meant to be role models.

00:37:06.940 You're meant to lead the way.

00:37:08.360 And the adults have left the room.

00:37:10.140 The adults have left the room at home, and they've left the room in the schools.

00:37:13.400 And I've been saying this for years.

00:37:15.160 And then what's happened is, because the children are leading everything, that's why they've led us straight into this madness, right, that is happening in too many schools where children are being divided.

00:37:25.780 And then it's become the norm now.

00:37:28.420 It's become so much the norm that, you know, if anyone tries to push back against that, then, you know, we can be vilified.

00:37:37.180 And that is what has happened to me.

00:37:39.180 And the one thing that I've noticed, because I've worked in many schools, both academically outstanding, tough schools in places like Newham.

00:37:47.720 And what I've noticed is that the individual has now become more important than the group or the collective.

00:37:55.380 And when that happens, what you get is chaos.

00:37:59.000 And when I was reading about your case, I was like, this is the exact same thing happening again, where one person has decided that this is unacceptable, so everybody else can go do what they need to do.

00:38:14.460 But I need to do this, regardless of the chaos that it causes.

00:38:19.140 The thing is, is that in any group, whether it's multiracial or not, you're going to have to make sacrifices.

00:38:27.340 You could take a group of white kids.

00:38:29.280 They're all going to have to make sacrifices in order for them all to get on with each other and in order for them to succeed together.

00:38:37.440 So we have very much a sense of team.

00:38:40.120 We talk about the team at school and there's the form group and then there's the year group and then there's the whole school.

00:38:45.760 And why do we sing God Save the King?

00:38:48.440 I mean, the thing is, I am no royalist.

00:38:50.660 I do not have the king's photo on mugs.

00:38:53.720 You know, I do not have royal stuff at home.

00:39:00.180 I don't really care about all that stuff.

00:39:01.900 But the reason why we sing God Save the King is because I know that he is a symbol of the country and therefore of our Britishness and of what we share together and what we have in common.

00:39:17.100 That is what's important.

00:39:19.120 And we find what we do works.

00:39:21.620 Now, obviously, schools that have different layouts, maybe have a bit more of a free time at lunch, they may do different things, you know.

00:39:30.200 But given what we do with our family lunch and all of that stuff, we would have to turn into a different type of school.

00:39:38.980 And then you need to think, well, is it reasonable to ask a school to give up its whole ethos to totally transform in order for us to have prayer rooms?

00:39:48.640 Is that a reasonable thing? And I don't think it is, you know.

00:39:54.180 Catherine, and is this really, is there an element of this where it's just one disgruntled student, essentially, who, by the way, from what I've read, was a bit of a troublemaker?

00:40:04.280 Is that where this is coming from, do you think? Or is this really somebody making a stand on principle?

00:40:09.840 It's hard to say, you know, it is. It's hard to say.

00:40:12.720 I don't know. I mean, at the end of the day, I understand different religious groups wanting different things.

00:40:22.780 And not just religious groups, you know, there are all kinds of groups that want different things.

00:40:27.380 But, you know, our small c conservative values that I was saying, what are they?

00:40:31.920 We believe very much in personal responsibility, the children taking responsibility for their homework and all the rest of it.

00:40:36.620 And if, you know, not to blame other people, not to see yourself as a victim.

00:40:42.100 So, and that's very much part of our culture.

00:40:44.380 We believe in having a duty towards other people, towards your form.

00:40:47.740 So if a child comes back at the end of the day to their tutor and he's had a detention, or three or four of them have had detention,

00:40:54.420 their form tutor will say, look, you've let us all down.

00:40:58.020 The team has been let down.

00:40:59.580 They haven't just let themselves down as the individual.

00:41:01.680 They've let everyone down, you know, because we are part of a collective.

00:41:06.900 We owe something to the people around us.

00:41:09.420 And so in that, there's the idea of self-sacrifice.

00:41:11.960 You know, you sacrifice things that are important to you when you recognize that it makes it better for everyone around you.

00:41:18.780 Now, that's some of it.

00:41:20.800 Also, we teach them gratitude.

00:41:22.720 So on a daily basis, we have the children give appreciations at lunch.

00:41:27.640 I would like to give an appreciation to Mr. Eastman.

00:41:31.040 To Mr. Smith.

00:41:32.240 To the guests on our table, Mr. Mayor, for coming all the way from East London to visit our school, Michaela.

00:41:38.800 So two claps on two.

00:41:40.380 One, two.

00:41:42.000 One, two.

00:41:43.400 Thank you, Madeleine.

00:41:44.360 I mean, it's lovely.

00:41:45.500 Anyone who on that day, you think, I really owe that person something today and I want to be able to say thank you.

00:41:50.680 We do it in a public fashion.

00:41:52.760 We teach them gratitude because it makes you into a happier person and because you're a better person for being someone who's grateful.

00:41:59.880 And however little you have in life, you always have more than somebody else.

00:42:04.280 So be grateful for it.

00:42:05.340 You know, as opposed to seeing yourself as a victim, life is so hard for me.

00:42:09.560 So while I say that, yes, I believe that racism exists and so on, if all you ever do is see everything through that lens and see yourself as this victim.

00:42:19.540 So, you know, yes, things happen to me that might, you know, have a racist tone to them.

00:42:24.660 If I went around life all the time thinking about that, well, I'd never have set up my school.

00:42:29.620 I would never have succeeded as I have.

00:42:31.120 And that's the thing that I often find that left don't understand.

00:42:35.920 Once I went and gave a talk, this is relatively recently.

00:42:40.020 I talked about what we do in exactly as I'm just doing with you.

00:42:43.680 And this white woman came up to me and she said, but what about the racism?

00:42:48.580 Why aren't you teaching them about the racism?

00:42:50.860 And I said, sorry, you know, I mean, you know, forget the irony of this white woman telling me how terrible racism is.

00:42:57.020 And she said, you must tell them about the racism.

00:43:00.080 And I said, well, you know, they do know that they're black and brown.

00:43:06.200 And she said, but you've got to tell them because how are they going to cope in life otherwise?

00:43:12.080 And I said, OK, so we teach them how to jump over obstacles.

00:43:15.900 We teach them resilience and stoicism.

00:43:18.620 We teach them how to handle difficulties in life and how to make something of their life.

00:43:24.220 There will be all sorts of obstacles in their lives.

00:43:25.840 Some of those may be racist obstacles.

00:43:28.320 Some of those may be any kind of huge numbers of obstacles.

00:43:31.480 The point is, do they have the resilience and the ability to be able to get up?

00:43:37.120 You get knocked down.

00:43:38.120 You pick yourself up.

00:43:39.180 You keep on going.

00:43:39.920 I said that this morning in assembly.

00:43:41.300 I say it practically in every assembly.

00:43:42.880 You know, the fact is, that's what they need.

00:43:45.780 If I go on and on about how the establishment is against them and the man is against them and so on,

00:43:50.480 well, then they give up.

00:43:51.580 Then they think, what's the point?

00:43:52.960 Because I don't belong in this country.

00:43:54.460 I'm not welcome here.

00:43:56.680 And that is what I often find the more extreme left don't understand,

00:44:00.560 is that if they're constantly promoting that kind of division.

00:44:03.720 And by the way, just to say, you know, in terms of diversity, I am the poster girl for diversity.

00:44:08.160 I mean, what I mean by that, my own family background, you know, I've got a Muslim grandmother.

00:44:11.720 I've got a Hindu grandfather.

00:44:13.980 Well, I mean, they're dead now, but, you know, I did.

00:44:16.800 I've got a black Jamaican mother.

00:44:19.580 My father is of Indian heritage, but grew up in Guyana.

00:44:24.360 You know, I mean, the fact is, I'm a mix, right?

00:44:28.780 And actually, even within our own family, I saw this.

00:44:32.400 You know, over the years, you know, how do you get the different groups to mix?

00:44:38.420 And, you know, this idea that only white people can be racist.

00:44:42.800 I mean, you know, it's just nonsense.

00:44:46.500 My father, being of Indian heritage and in Guyana, there is a big divide between the black people

00:44:53.520 and the brown people, the Indian descent people in Guyana.

00:44:57.900 And when my father married my mother, his family, you know, they stopped talking to him.

00:45:03.440 I mean, that, you know, now over the years that changed and so on, you know,

00:45:07.520 but it was a scandalous thing that he did, you know.

00:45:11.240 And so, the fact is, race and religion are difficult things to talk about and to deal with.

00:45:22.800 And children are so influenced by what they experience as children.

00:45:29.100 So that is why our jobs around socialization with children,

00:45:33.220 helping them to see beyond the confines of race, religion,

00:45:41.240 sexuality.

00:45:42.800 And what is so terrible is that these days, that's all that's being promoted.

00:45:47.360 And our humanity has been lost.

00:45:49.860 Why do we read Shakespeare?

00:45:51.280 Because there is a common thread of humanity in there.

00:45:55.060 And that whether you're black or white or Hindu or Muslim,

00:45:58.260 you understand what jealousy is.

00:45:59.900 You understand what war is.

00:46:02.200 You understand what anger is.

00:46:04.640 And all that Shakespeare does, what love is, you know.

00:46:08.040 So, that is what we should be trying to do.

00:46:13.000 And you are doing.

00:46:13.740 Yeah.

00:46:14.020 You are doing, Cashman.

00:46:14.720 You are doing.

00:46:15.720 And I'm grateful that you are doing that.

00:46:18.160 We try to talk about some of these things on our show in order to do the same thing

00:46:22.640 that you are doing in a smaller way, which is to put that idea out there

00:46:26.240 that human beings can connect as human beings instead of looking at each other

00:46:29.820 through skin color and all sorts of other things.

00:46:32.360 So, I'm really grateful that Mikel exists.

00:46:34.960 And I hope you are allowed to continue with that ethos because I think it's much needed.

00:46:39.040 When is the court case and when can we expect an outcome in your case?

00:46:42.820 Well, I mean, they say it could be a couple of months.

00:46:45.480 We don't really know.

00:46:46.520 So, we're just sort of waiting.

00:46:48.200 I have to say I wait with trepidation because whatever the press has been now,

00:46:53.220 I expect it will be 100 times more when that verdict comes out.

00:46:57.240 But, you know, we've got to soldier on.

00:47:02.340 We've got to fight for what's right.

00:47:04.540 You know, our Western values, you know, people take them for granted.

00:47:11.400 They think it's normal to have societies that mix successfully

00:47:17.140 and that you get on a bus and it works and you get on the tube and it works.

00:47:22.180 What city do you live in, Catherine?

00:47:23.580 She was about to say you get on the train and it works and it works.

00:47:30.260 No, Catherine, we joke.

00:47:31.920 You're 100% right.

00:47:32.960 They take it for granted.

00:47:33.720 They think it's normal.

00:47:34.840 You're 100% right.

00:47:35.380 And I feel like saying to them, go and travel.

00:47:37.760 You know, the thing is, it was one of the things that helped me when I was a teacher.

00:47:41.540 I was on the left, very much so.

00:47:44.820 And I changed my mind to become more of a small C conservative

00:47:47.940 because I went and visited other countries.

00:47:50.920 And I worked a summer in South Africa in schools.

00:47:53.880 I visited schools in India and China and in Jamaica and all over, you know.

00:47:58.540 And I saw what it's like elsewhere, you know.

00:48:04.160 What is it like elsewhere?

00:48:05.860 Well, groups don't necessarily mix together.

00:48:10.500 She's putting it very gently.

00:48:15.860 You know, the schools don't have the resources and the teaching quality is nowhere near what we've got.

00:48:23.200 And things that we take for granted, that a bell rings between the lessons, you know.

00:48:28.980 So it's simple stuff like that just wouldn't happen, you know.

00:48:34.680 And then, of course, the poverty that you see elsewhere, the terrible ways in which people are treated.

00:48:42.400 I went to visit this school that had been set up by a charity, by a man, an Indian heritage man,

00:48:49.620 but he was American, for Dalit children in India.

00:48:54.020 I mean, they couldn't go to the well because other people wouldn't be able, you know,

00:48:59.180 they would kick them away because that well was not for Dalit people, you know. 1.00

00:49:03.900 Like, it was racism on a level that, you know, that we are totally unfamiliar with.

00:49:09.720 We don't know what it's like.

00:49:12.760 And, I mean, I always say that Britain is such a brilliant place to live in terms of race, you know.

00:49:19.500 In terms of Europe, my goodness.

00:49:21.320 I mean, you want racism, you go and find other parts of Europe.

00:49:24.300 Forget about India and China.

00:49:26.380 I mean, in China, oh, my goodness.

00:49:27.780 I mean, racism is off the charts, you know.

00:49:30.240 But just in Europe, other places in Europe, the kind of racism that you'll find.

00:49:35.720 In Britain, we're so, we're wonderful.

00:49:38.560 We're a wonderful country.

00:49:39.720 I think.

00:49:40.580 You know, I remember watching this movie with Denzel Washington called Book of Eli.

00:49:46.380 And it's this post-apocalyptic world in which, you know,

00:49:50.580 most of the things we now take for granted don't exist.

00:49:52.780 It's kind of a Mad Max.

00:49:54.100 There's nothing works.

00:49:55.120 You have to scrounge forever.

00:49:56.940 And there's a young girl who asked him what it was like before the apocalypse happened.

00:50:01.000 And he said, oh, people used to just take everything for granted.

00:50:04.120 And the stuff that we now kill each other for, they used to throw in the bin.

00:50:07.980 And that's kind of how I think about Britain and, you know, Western countries mostly and the rest of the world.

00:50:15.260 Yes.

00:50:15.460 People in the West just so fundamentally don't appreciate what we have here.

00:50:20.300 That's right.

00:50:20.780 And they've got to go and see it with their own eyes.

00:50:22.660 Otherwise, they never will.

00:50:23.820 That's right.

00:50:24.320 Well, you know, it's funny you mentioned Denzel Washington because I did my assembly this morning partly on him.

00:50:29.420 And, you know, he gives this great speech about how you've got to keep working.

00:50:33.740 You fall down seven times, you get up eight, he says.

00:50:37.420 And he says that ease is a greater threat to success than hardship.

00:50:44.960 And I was saying to the kids, you've got to push through the pain.

00:50:48.440 You know, you've got to push yourselves till you feel it's hard, right?

00:50:53.540 Because if it isn't hard, if it's easy, then you're not really making a success of anything.

00:50:57.560 It's got to be difficult, you know.

00:50:59.800 And Denzel Washington has done more than 64 films and he's 69 years old.

00:51:03.460 And he's worth more than $280 million.

00:51:06.680 I know this because I did my assembly this morning on him.

00:51:09.020 And I was saying, look at this man.

00:51:11.320 He's so successful.

00:51:12.220 He gives his little speech and at the end he says, see you at work.

00:51:14.860 Because he works all the time.

00:51:16.140 That's how he's made over 64 films, you know.

00:51:18.400 And whatever comes at him doesn't matter.

00:51:21.080 And he understands that point.

00:51:22.760 You don't want it to be easy.

00:51:24.160 You want it to be hard.

00:51:25.540 And that's why our motto is work hard, be kind.

00:51:29.120 And we took that motto.

00:51:30.680 Your viewers might be interested.

00:51:31.640 We took that motto.

00:51:32.920 We stole it from KIPP in the United States, the charter chain there.

00:51:37.740 They used to have a motto called work hard, be nice.

00:51:41.240 And we changed it to be kind just to be different.

00:51:44.560 And when George Floyd happened, work hard, be nice.

00:51:49.120 They were accused of racism because if white teachers are teaching black children to be nice, 0.97

00:51:55.000 that means you're teaching black children to be subservient. 0.97

00:51:57.740 Therefore, it's racist. 0.97

00:51:59.520 And so KIPP had to abandon their motto.

00:52:03.520 Now, we still have our motto, work hard, be kind.

00:52:05.940 I'm not changing it.

00:52:07.300 You know, like, what is this insanity? 0.99

00:52:09.900 Why can't a white teacher teach a black child to be nice? 0.99

00:52:14.020 Lend him a pen. 0.99

00:52:15.020 Open the door.

00:52:16.240 You know, be kind to your friends.

00:52:18.260 I don't understand it.

00:52:19.580 We've all lost our minds.

00:52:20.840 I mean, we've lost our minds.

00:52:22.180 And there's something very important worth saying here, because within education, there

00:52:28.800 are some people within it who see you as a controversial figure, but there are a lot

00:52:33.780 of teachers, believe me, who I've spoken to, who've reached out to me, who's people that

00:52:39.380 I have also worked under, who see you as a guiding light and someone pushing back against

00:52:45.760 this nonsense, not because you're interested in becoming a public figure, but because you

00:52:51.860 care about the kids.

00:52:53.820 And that's what it always comes down with, with you, Catherine, which is why it's always

00:52:57.700 a pleasure to have you on the show.

00:52:59.240 It's always a pleasure to talk to you about education.

00:53:01.560 Thank you so much for coming on.

00:53:03.920 And the final question, as always, is what's the one thing that we're not talking about

00:53:08.640 that we really should be?

00:53:10.600 Skulls!

00:53:12.800 Beautiful.

00:53:13.240 And of course, it's not the final question, because we have questions from our supporters

00:53:17.140 on Locals, where we're going to head over in a second and ask them, and they all go behind

00:53:21.900 a paywall on Locals, so they can see that.

00:53:23.800 Thanks for watching.

00:53:25.020 Head on over to Locals for the rest of this conversation.

00:53:28.900 The best thing you can do for your children, and I say this to absolutely everyone.

TRIGGERnometry - January 31, 2024

World’s Strictest Teacher Sued for Banning Prayer at School - Katharine Birbalsingh

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