TRIGGERnometry - WW2： Why We Fought & How We Won

00:00:00.760 What we wanted to do first and foremost is actually just to get you to talk to us about World War II and explain the basics to us.

00:00:08.200 Maybe starting with, why did it happen?

00:00:10.700 One of the revisionist narratives I alluded to is the idea that actually, that he could have done that peace deal with Hitler.

00:00:19.740 You can't do peace deals with someone like Hitler. You can't.

00:00:22.440 You know, they tried in 1938 and it got nowhere.

00:00:24.760 You know, he then got into it. I mean, I can't even begin to say how totally absurd this argument is.

00:00:30.300 I know.

00:00:31.000 I know people say it, but they say it from a point of deep ignorance.

00:00:35.100 So, Britain stands alone. Not to put too fine a point in it, we're in the...

00:00:40.860 How did we manage to get out of this situation?

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00:01:15.840 James Holland, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:17.660 Well, thank you very much for having me on, chaps.

00:01:19.060 Oh, it's great. You've got a brilliant new book out, which we want to talk to you about.

00:01:22.480 But you're one of the preeminent historians in this country, of particular World War II.

00:01:27.200 And we wanted to talk about that.

00:01:28.840 I don't know how aware you are, but the subject of World War II has become contemporary again.

00:01:33.880 There's different perspectives on it.

00:01:35.660 I know historians have always argued about it, but there's quite a lot of new perspectives on it,

00:01:40.020 or perhaps old perspectives being presented again.

00:01:43.060 So what we wanted to do, first and foremost, is actually just to get you to talk to us about World War II

00:01:49.580 and explain the basics to us, maybe starting with, why did it happen?

00:01:54.920 You've got 30 seconds.

00:01:56.160 Just a really small question.

00:01:57.320 Okay, so why did it happen?

00:01:58.900 It happened because Nazi Germany had expansionist designs.

00:02:03.220 Hitler wanted to, was ideologically driven for two things.

00:02:09.500 First, he wanted Lebensraum, which is sort of living space.

00:02:11.500 He wanted to create his own kind of, effectively his own empire.

00:02:14.980 Because Germany is locked in the centre of Europe.

00:02:17.700 It isn't resource rich.

00:02:19.060 It doesn't really have access to the world's oceans, just has a bit of the Baltic coast

00:02:21.820 and a tiny bit of the North Sea, and that's it.

00:02:23.880 It doesn't historically have a large navy or indeed a large merchant navy.

00:02:27.220 So where are you going to get all the resources you would normally get from overseas?

00:02:30.900 Well, you go eastwards into Russia and Soviet Union, which is very, very resource rich.

00:02:36.620 At the same time, he developed a virulent hatred of both Bolshevism, communism, and Judaism.

00:02:46.520 And so he was ideologically driven through anti-Semitism and anti-Bolshevism.

00:02:51.680 Sorry to interrupt you, James.

00:02:53.000 Are those two linked?

00:02:54.060 Because quite a few people...

00:02:55.580 No, but they are in Hitler's mind.

00:02:57.520 Yes.

00:02:58.940 But that's what I mean.

00:03:00.120 Did he associate those two movements?

00:03:02.180 Yes, yes, he did.

00:03:03.000 It goes back to 1919.

00:03:03.740 He called it Judeo-Bolshevism, didn't he?

00:03:07.400 It's so mad, and one can only kind of laugh at it.

00:03:10.420 And yet it happened.

00:03:12.040 And it happened, you know, catastrophically and murderously,

00:03:15.120 to the tune of six million dead Jews and untold numbers of Soviet citizens.

00:03:20.020 So, you know, clearly it isn't a laughing matter,

00:03:23.320 but it was risible that he would think this.

00:03:25.560 And the reason he kind of drew this,

00:03:26.860 there was quite a lot of sort of anti-Semitism bubbling around in the late 19th century.

00:03:30.960 It always has been, to be perfectly honest,

00:03:32.260 but there was particularly sort of building into the late 19th century,

00:03:35.920 into the beginning of the 20th century.

00:03:37.140 What really seems to have triggered Hitler, though,

00:03:41.020 is a failed communist coup that took place in Munich in 1919,

00:03:46.720 of which the leaders were predominantly Jewish.

00:03:50.520 It was just pure coincidence.

00:03:52.300 He kind of put two and two together, and that became his mantra.

00:03:55.420 And Hitler was always a very kind of sort of black and white,

00:03:57.500 kind of Eva Rohr kind of guy.

00:03:59.280 And one of the things where he kind of garnered support

00:04:02.020 was by presenting a kind of us and them.

00:04:05.980 So, you know, there is us, we Germans,

00:04:09.760 we kind of true natives of Northern Europe, Herians.

00:04:13.980 And then there is them, the enemy,

00:04:16.200 in which case as Bolsheviks and Jews.

00:04:22.200 And it's warped and mad and has no basis in any kind of reality whatsoever.

00:04:27.960 But, you know, that's not really the point.

00:04:29.480 The point is, that is what he was perpetuating,

00:04:32.000 it's what he seems to have believed.

00:04:33.900 And it was very much the sort of absolute cornerstone of Nazi Germany.

00:04:37.160 Why did he get so much support?

00:04:38.540 Well, he got into power in the first place in January 1933

00:04:41.120 because of the Wall Street crash.

00:04:44.580 So the Nazis came to being because of the Treaty of Versailles,

00:04:47.900 which ended the First World War,

00:04:48.740 which is incredibly brutal on Germany.

00:04:51.420 I mean, you know, giving them reparations,

00:04:53.020 demanding reparations that they couldn't possibly ever afford,

00:04:56.320 taking huge chunks of land.

00:04:58.880 And, you know, they were extremely punitive

00:05:02.520 and led to the wheelbarrows of money and all the rest of it.

00:05:07.840 Then they were propped up by,

00:05:08.860 Germany was then propped up,

00:05:09.880 the Weimar Republic, which is democratic,

00:05:11.360 was propped up by American loans,

00:05:13.720 which were in turn paid for by repaying of debts

00:05:16.920 from France and Britain to America

00:05:18.920 from war loans during the First World War.

00:05:20.860 So it was sort of going right in a big circle.

00:05:24.500 So this kind of notion of being stabbed in the back

00:05:27.280 and the kind of sort of let down

00:05:28.860 and the kind of harshness of the Treaty of Versailles,

00:05:32.560 that is what instigated the Nazis.

00:05:34.980 But they were kind of a fringe force

00:05:36.760 and kind of, you know,

00:05:37.940 a joke by the end of the 1920s to a large extent.

00:05:41.000 But then came the Wall Street crash

00:05:42.040 and the tap of money that was propping up

00:05:44.880 the Weimar Republic was cut off.

00:05:48.020 And when you have extreme financial crises,

00:05:51.400 what you tend to do is then have political upheaval.

00:05:53.420 If you want any proof of this,

00:05:54.300 you've only got to look at the last,

00:05:55.520 you know, decade and a half

00:05:56.720 because, you know, 2008, you had a financial crisis,

00:05:59.140 then you have political upheaval,

00:06:00.560 rise of populism, all the rest of it.

00:06:01.860 You know, it's led directly to Brexit, Trump,

00:06:05.840 rise of Le Pen in France,

00:06:07.320 AFD in Germany, et cetera, et cetera.

00:06:09.340 Then you have the economic crisis of the pandemic.

00:06:11.720 Now you've got the current American administrations,

00:06:14.200 you know, doubling down on tariffs

00:06:16.600 and all the rest of it,

00:06:17.420 which is causing sort of further economic strife.

00:06:20.320 When you have economic strife,

00:06:21.360 you then have all sorts of political upheavals.

00:06:24.500 And when you have political upheavals,

00:06:25.760 you're that much more likely to go to war.

00:06:28.240 Can I just pause there for one second?

00:06:31.160 In terms of the anti-Semitism,

00:06:33.440 how popular was that?

00:06:35.800 Was Hitler open about this?

00:06:37.300 Would he do speeches in which he would say,

00:06:39.480 we will get, you know,

00:06:40.680 or was he concealing it somewhat?

00:06:43.040 No, he wasn't concealing it at all.

00:06:44.420 I mean, you know, once he got into power,

00:06:48.520 you know, Mein Kampf, his kind of sort of rant,

00:06:50.540 his kind of autobiography kind of treaties,

00:06:52.720 whatever you want to call it,

00:06:54.460 you know, was a huge bestseller.

00:06:56.400 And it's just full of this invective

00:06:58.480 against Bolshevism and Jews.

00:07:01.740 So no, he was completely up front about it.

00:07:03.520 But, I mean, what he was doing,

00:07:05.200 he was tapping into a kind of, you know,

00:07:08.040 an undercurrent of anti-Semitism,

00:07:09.740 which was also already there.

00:07:11.580 But what he was also doing was, you know,

00:07:14.400 effectively brainwashing people.

00:07:15.560 I mean, you know,

00:07:16.200 the last propaganda was very good.

00:07:18.220 Well, you know, the point is,

00:07:19.420 if you control the media, which he does,

00:07:22.500 and you just repeat stuff over and over and over again,

00:07:24.540 people start to believe it,

00:07:25.780 you know, whatever it might be.

00:07:27.280 So, you know, he was just tapping into that truism.

00:07:32.060 And what he was also doing

00:07:34.300 was getting back to the Rhineland,

00:07:36.800 you know, forming a union with Austria

00:07:40.440 and then taking us to Dayton land

00:07:42.400 and then taking the rest of Czechoslovakia,

00:07:44.800 expanding the Third Reich.

00:07:46.080 Everyone was sort of, you know,

00:07:47.660 bowing down towards the might of Nazi Germany.

00:07:50.020 And all that humiliation of Versailles

00:07:53.800 and the defeat of the First World War

00:07:55.200 seemed to be kind of sort of being pushed to one side.

00:07:57.280 As Germany emerged again

00:07:59.300 in this kind of new, the new Third Reich.

00:08:03.320 And, you know, it was very exciting for people.

00:08:05.700 There were jobs.

00:08:06.440 It was becoming more prosperous.

00:08:08.420 They were feeling good about themselves.

00:08:10.200 They were tapping into that kind of sort of

00:08:11.640 traditional Prussian militarism,

00:08:14.840 which after all had been the foundation

00:08:16.400 of modern Germany in 1870.

00:08:20.240 So, 1871 rather.

00:08:22.260 So, you know, it's, you can see

00:08:24.820 why some of the more unsavoury parts

00:08:29.440 were kind of, of Nazi ideology,

00:08:33.080 of Hitler's ideology,

00:08:33.880 were kind of sort of swept under the carpet

00:08:35.160 at best or at worst,

00:08:37.820 kind of swallowed, hook, line and sinker.

00:08:39.160 And so what we have now is Germany,

00:08:45.460 its tentacles going into Czechoslovakia,

00:08:47.800 claiming the Sudetenland.

00:08:49.620 And what was Britain doing at this point?

00:08:53.580 Well, Britain is massively rearming and has been,

00:08:56.820 you know, Britain was the number one armaments exporter

00:09:00.620 in the first part of the 1930s,

00:09:02.800 but was also struggling from the Great Depression as well,

00:09:05.940 just like everybody else.

00:09:06.800 You know, unemployment was high,

00:09:08.860 all sorts of, you know, economic problems.

00:09:11.660 The empire was in decline at that point,

00:09:14.860 so it was posing all sorts of potential problems,

00:09:17.140 not least in India, of course.

00:09:20.040 And it was spending its money,

00:09:23.800 what it did have for defence,

00:09:25.180 very sensibly on the Navy,

00:09:27.320 which after all was the senior service

00:09:28.820 and the world's largest in the late 1930s,

00:09:30.960 to upgrade, you know,

00:09:34.360 basically if you build a massive great battleship in 1915,

00:09:37.980 you want it to last 30 years

00:09:39.600 because it's a huge undertaking.

00:09:41.880 So you're just constantly upgrading it

00:09:43.280 and putting in, you know,

00:09:44.680 the latest technology and all the rest of it.

00:09:46.240 So they're doing that,

00:09:46.980 they're building more aircraft carriers,

00:09:48.860 which is just about to merge

00:09:50.280 as the preeminent capital ship,

00:09:51.880 a major warship overtaking the battleship.

00:09:55.340 They are massively increasing aircraft production.

00:09:59.240 They are creating the world's

00:10:00.260 first fully coordinated air defence system.

00:10:02.720 But Britain has always traditionally

00:10:03.700 had a very, very small army

00:10:04.940 and has a formal alliance with France,

00:10:06.340 which traditionally has a very large army.

00:10:08.080 So the, you know,

00:10:08.720 the rough plan is that should it come to it,

00:10:11.060 you know, France will do the bulk of the army bit.

00:10:14.200 Britain will do the kind of overseas defence

00:10:16.240 and naval bit

00:10:17.620 and also have the largest merchant fleet.

00:10:19.580 So we'll bring in supplies

00:10:20.860 and access to around 85%

00:10:22.740 of the world's merchant shipping.

00:10:23.760 So they'll do all that.

00:10:25.660 We'll have a burgeoning air power as well.

00:10:28.700 And we'll see how it all pans out.

00:10:31.660 You know, France and Britain

00:10:32.600 are not the aggressors in this,

00:10:34.160 you know, Nazi Germany is.

00:10:35.120 So, you know, there isn't a large army.

00:10:37.340 It's very, very small.

00:10:38.820 But it has traditionally been that case.

00:10:40.840 And at the same time,

00:10:41.680 you have to have armies overseas

00:10:42.820 to kind of, you know,

00:10:43.640 do empire policing and all the rest of it.

00:10:46.060 Colonial forces and so on.

00:10:47.700 So Britain is watching very nervously

00:10:50.100 and very anxiously

00:10:51.420 and kind of worrying about

00:10:52.600 what Hitler's next move might be.

00:10:56.400 You know, Chamberlain,

00:10:57.240 who was, Neville Chamberlain,

00:10:58.160 who was the prime minister

00:10:58.800 in the late 1930s,

00:10:59.820 gets a very hard press

00:11:01.000 for kind of, you know,

00:11:01.960 appeasement and appeasing Hitler

00:11:03.720 during the Munich crisis

00:11:04.660 of the autumn of 1938,

00:11:06.660 when basically, you know,

00:11:07.820 Hitler was threatening

00:11:08.660 to go into the,

00:11:09.540 take the Sudetenland.

00:11:10.660 You know, Britain had no legal,

00:11:14.220 you know, obligation at all,

00:11:16.120 no treaty obligation

00:11:17.140 to Czechoslovakia at all.

00:11:19.120 92% of the nation

00:11:20.440 over here in the UK

00:11:21.660 were against going to war.

00:11:23.020 You know, that's a,

00:11:23.440 you know, democratically elected,

00:11:24.900 it's quite hard to go

00:11:25.640 against the wishes

00:11:26.180 of over 90% of the population.

00:11:27.820 So, you know,

00:11:28.220 he was sort of juggling

00:11:29.280 a very, very difficult thing.

00:11:30.420 And obviously, you know,

00:11:30.960 he wants to avoid going to war.

00:11:31.980 So, he compromised

00:11:34.860 and allowed Hitler

00:11:37.080 to take the Sudetenland.

00:11:38.740 And there was a huge argument

00:11:40.100 for saying that Versailles

00:11:42.020 had been too harsh

00:11:42.920 and that a lot of those

00:11:44.200 German-speaking lands,

00:11:45.200 you know,

00:11:45.640 should go back to Germany anyway.

00:11:47.140 And then this is the whole problem

00:11:48.140 about going into Poland,

00:11:49.100 which is eventually

00:11:49.620 what triggers the war

00:11:50.360 in September 1939.

00:11:51.980 It's because basically

00:11:52.640 there was a little isolated pocket

00:11:53.960 called East Prussia,

00:11:55.500 which centres around

00:11:56.120 the Baltic city and port

00:11:58.600 of Königsberg,

00:11:59.820 now Kaliningrad,

00:12:00.680 Kaliningrad.

00:12:02.100 Or Kalin, rather.

00:12:03.080 It was Kaliningrad.

00:12:04.980 But that was separated.

00:12:09.020 It was German.

00:12:09.940 It was part of Germany,

00:12:10.820 but it was separated

00:12:11.640 by a little strip of land

00:12:13.000 from Poland

00:12:14.140 going up to the coast

00:12:15.260 around Danzig,

00:12:16.280 as it then was,

00:12:17.020 now Gdansk,

00:12:18.020 which is known as

00:12:18.560 the Danzig Corridor,

00:12:19.580 the Polish Corridor.

00:12:20.840 And this is the strip.

00:12:21.820 They're saying,

00:12:22.260 no, no, no,

00:12:22.740 you know,

00:12:22.920 we need to link Prussia again.

00:12:24.160 This was Germany.

00:12:25.100 And of course,

00:12:25.500 when Poland was created

00:12:27.400 in 1919,

00:12:28.520 it hadn't been Poland

00:12:29.360 since the 1790s.

00:12:31.120 So it had been split

00:12:32.320 between Prussia,

00:12:34.040 Austria and Russia.

00:12:35.980 So it only became Poland again

00:12:37.520 in 1919

00:12:38.920 of the Treaty of Versailles.

00:12:40.480 So obviously,

00:12:41.000 there's lots of German-speaking

00:12:41.700 people there,

00:12:42.340 and it had been part of Germany

00:12:43.920 until 1919.

00:12:45.180 So you can see why,

00:12:46.920 you know,

00:12:47.200 a lot of Germans

00:12:47.840 might be quite sympathetic

00:12:48.820 to the idea of taking it back again.

00:12:50.640 And also as well,

00:12:51.520 I think it's deeply unfair

00:12:52.880 the way that we misrepresent

00:12:54.780 Chamberlain,

00:12:55.320 in my opinion,

00:12:55.840 because we've also got to remember

00:12:57.440 this country was horrifically

00:12:59.880 scarred by World War I.

00:13:02.180 That was the Great War,

00:13:03.500 the war to end all wars.

00:13:04.680 And the amount of men

00:13:06.280 who died,

00:13:07.200 people who lost

00:13:07.840 brothers,

00:13:08.900 husbands,

00:13:10.360 cousins,

00:13:11.280 why would you want to repeat

00:13:12.360 that all over again?

00:13:13.640 Revisit that trauma?

00:13:14.780 You absolutely don't.

00:13:16.060 But the worry is

00:13:17.120 that if you let

00:13:18.100 Hitler and Nazi Germany

00:13:20.480 run amok,

00:13:21.160 then it's the thin end

00:13:22.400 of the wedge.

00:13:23.020 And once they take one,

00:13:23.960 they'll do the next one,

00:13:24.760 and then they'll do something,

00:13:25.380 and they become unstoppable.

00:13:26.340 And the more land they absorb,

00:13:27.400 the stronger they become.

00:13:28.540 You know,

00:13:28.740 you're kind of feeding the monster.

00:13:30.220 So that's the danger

00:13:31.440 of that approach.

00:13:32.800 But the problem is,

00:13:33.880 you know,

00:13:34.060 the alternative is,

00:13:34.800 well, you know,

00:13:35.600 had we had a kind of,

00:13:36.820 you know,

00:13:37.100 cast iron sequence

00:13:38.740 of alliances

00:13:39.480 the moment Hitler

00:13:41.280 gets into power

00:13:42.280 or starts flexing

00:13:43.100 his muscles,

00:13:43.920 then this would have

00:13:44.740 all been avoided.

00:13:45.800 The problem is,

00:13:46.500 is there were a sequence

00:13:47.200 of interconnecting alliances

00:13:49.260 in 1914,

00:13:50.360 which then triggered

00:13:50.880 the First World War.

00:13:51.820 So, you know,

00:13:52.280 there are arguments

00:13:52.960 against that approach

00:13:54.200 as well.

00:13:55.200 I mean,

00:13:55.820 my own view is that

00:13:57.400 however awful it was

00:13:58.500 for Czechoslovakia,

00:13:59.640 it was probably the right,

00:14:00.440 you know,

00:14:00.560 it wasn't the right decision,

00:14:01.720 but it was an entirely

00:14:02.320 understandable decision

00:14:03.440 in 1938.

00:14:05.600 And, you know,

00:14:07.880 after the absorption

00:14:09.280 of Czechoslovakia

00:14:10.460 into Nazi Germany,

00:14:11.740 that was the line

00:14:12.700 in the sand.

00:14:13.280 You know,

00:14:13.400 from then on,

00:14:14.200 Chamberlain was like,

00:14:14.760 right,

00:14:15.000 any further incursions

00:14:16.440 and that's it.

00:14:17.820 So, you know,

00:14:18.360 we do make an alliance

00:14:19.280 with Poland.

00:14:19.980 We do promise

00:14:20.960 to uphold sovereignty.

00:14:22.920 Hitler thinks

00:14:23.980 that we're bluffing,

00:14:25.000 thinks that France

00:14:25.560 is bluffing too,

00:14:26.780 and we're not.

00:14:28.140 So,

00:14:29.360 Hitler's big problem

00:14:30.040 is,

00:14:31.060 what he doesn't want

00:14:31.580 to do is go

00:14:32.720 into Poland

00:14:33.440 and not have

00:14:35.820 enough resources

00:14:37.200 and he doesn't

00:14:38.500 want to go

00:14:38.860 into Poland

00:14:39.860 and have to watch

00:14:40.900 his back

00:14:41.360 and also worry

00:14:42.560 about what the Soviet

00:14:43.340 Union are going

00:14:43.980 to do.

00:14:44.720 So,

00:14:45.040 this cynical deal

00:14:46.080 is announced

00:14:47.240 to the world

00:14:47.660 on the 25th of August

00:14:48.540 1939,

00:14:50.160 where

00:14:50.880 Soviet Union

00:14:52.920 wants to take back

00:14:53.680 the part of Poland

00:14:54.920 that had been

00:14:55.520 in the Soviet sphere

00:14:57.100 up until,

00:14:57.660 you know,

00:14:57.900 in the Russian sphere

00:14:58.700 up until 1919.

00:14:59.600 and so there

00:15:02.380 is a pact

00:15:02.860 that they're going

00:15:03.280 to divide Poland

00:15:04.160 and eradicate it

00:15:05.080 once more

00:15:05.680 and part of the pact

00:15:07.380 is giving Germany

00:15:08.540 some of the supplies

00:15:09.260 it needs.

00:15:09.980 Now,

00:15:10.100 both of them

00:15:10.520 absolutely,

00:15:11.300 you know,

00:15:11.740 I mean,

00:15:14.180 you know,

00:15:14.800 extreme right wing,

00:15:15.600 extreme left wing,

00:15:16.180 they're like the horns

00:15:16.700 of the buffalo,

00:15:17.280 you know,

00:15:17.440 they curl in,

00:15:18.440 they almost meet again

00:15:19.240 in the middle,

00:15:20.300 but,

00:15:20.400 you know,

00:15:22.740 right wing Nazis

00:15:23.740 loathe left wing

00:15:25.540 Bolsheviks

00:15:26.400 and,

00:15:26.820 you know,

00:15:27.340 the two are never

00:15:28.240 going to align.

00:15:28.980 So this was only ever

00:15:30.440 a cynical diplomatic agreement

00:15:34.040 of convenience

00:15:34.840 and was never going

00:15:36.600 to go the distance.

00:15:37.460 You know,

00:15:37.560 the one thing

00:15:38.000 that was absolutely certain

00:15:39.380 the moment Hitler

00:15:40.120 took power

00:15:40.600 in January 1933

00:15:41.460 was that at some point

00:15:43.340 there would be

00:15:43.800 a massive showdown

00:15:44.800 between the Soviet Union

00:15:45.860 and Nazi Germany.

00:15:46.880 Whether that took place

00:15:47.940 in June 1941

00:15:48.940 or 1944

00:15:51.420 or 1943

00:15:52.220 or whatever,

00:15:53.480 it was kind of

00:15:54.440 at that point

00:15:54.920 up for grabs.

00:15:56.640 No one knew

00:15:57.160 it was going to,

00:15:57.720 you know,

00:15:57.940 not least Hitler

00:15:58.620 in the autumn

00:15:59.760 of 1939

00:16:00.400 knows when he's

00:16:01.040 going to go

00:16:01.360 and attack Russia.

00:16:02.340 This is just

00:16:03.080 a temporary measure

00:16:04.260 to secure

00:16:05.060 the next bite

00:16:06.100 of land

00:16:06.500 that he wants

00:16:07.020 and by going

00:16:07.920 into Poland

00:16:08.440 and getting

00:16:09.080 two-thirds

00:16:09.640 of Poland

00:16:10.100 in September 1939

00:16:11.420 he triggers

00:16:12.220 the start

00:16:13.000 of the Second World War

00:16:13.940 but he does

00:16:14.720 get back

00:16:15.240 that territory

00:16:15.940 which enables him

00:16:17.360 to link

00:16:17.800 East Prussia

00:16:18.480 to the rest

00:16:19.060 of Nazi Germany.

00:16:20.660 And you mentioned

00:16:21.340 that the Chamberlain

00:16:22.240 position was

00:16:22.940 very democratically

00:16:24.060 popular

00:16:24.620 at the time.

00:16:26.620 Was Churchill

00:16:27.580 effectively

00:16:28.100 the long voice

00:16:28.960 attempting to

00:16:29.680 articulate

00:16:30.160 a different position

00:16:31.120 at that time?

00:16:32.940 Well, no

00:16:33.740 because Anthony Eden

00:16:34.520 who had been

00:16:35.160 the Foreign Secretary

00:16:35.860 excuse me

00:16:36.880 he'd also resigned

00:16:38.440 over appeasement

00:16:39.640 as it was called.

00:16:42.380 So no,

00:16:42.700 there's a number

00:16:43.480 of dissenting voices

00:16:44.320 and you know

00:16:45.720 what one has to remember

00:16:46.600 is all these decisions

00:16:47.420 are being made

00:16:48.020 in the moment.

00:16:49.060 Sure.

00:16:49.200 You know,

00:16:49.380 they're not being made

00:16:50.020 with the kind of

00:16:50.540 benefit of hindsight.

00:16:51.620 They're being made

00:16:52.420 in the autumn of 1938.

00:16:53.680 You can only play

00:16:54.380 the cards you've got

00:16:55.000 in front of you

00:16:55.480 and make the best

00:16:56.760 decisions you possibly can.

00:16:59.440 So you know,

00:16:59.900 that's what Chamberlain

00:17:00.520 was trying to do.

00:17:01.800 Chamberlain sort of

00:17:02.580 you know,

00:17:03.980 he's a grand old man

00:17:04.940 of British politics.

00:17:06.700 You know,

00:17:06.860 he's incredibly

00:17:07.580 politically eminent

00:17:09.000 and yet,

00:17:09.980 you know,

00:17:10.200 he doesn't have

00:17:10.800 that same sort of

00:17:11.560 geopolitical understanding

00:17:12.660 that Churchill does.

00:17:14.660 You know,

00:17:14.840 he wouldn't say that

00:17:15.600 he would say that

00:17:16.740 Chamberlain is first

00:17:17.300 and foremost

00:17:17.580 a domestic politician

00:17:18.780 which might sound odd

00:17:19.760 for,

00:17:20.500 you know,

00:17:20.780 the Prime Minister

00:17:21.280 of the largest

00:17:21.980 trading empire

00:17:23.680 the world has ever seen.

00:17:24.860 But,

00:17:24.900 you know,

00:17:25.780 he is really,

00:17:26.980 whereas Churchill

00:17:27.720 is a true internationalist.

00:17:29.480 You know,

00:17:29.700 he's an imperialist of course

00:17:31.700 but he's also

00:17:32.360 an internationalist.

00:17:34.000 That's an immense

00:17:34.600 geopolitical understanding.

00:17:35.700 You know,

00:17:35.880 this is a man

00:17:36.380 who's sort of

00:17:36.740 been to war

00:17:37.240 on four different continents.

00:17:38.800 So,

00:17:39.020 you know,

00:17:39.200 he kind of knows

00:17:39.940 what he's about

00:17:40.660 and knows his history

00:17:42.100 incredibly well.

00:17:45.080 So,

00:17:45.540 you know,

00:17:45.680 he was very,

00:17:46.380 very against

00:17:46.980 at any point

00:17:47.960 showing any kind

00:17:48.980 of latitude

00:17:51.660 to Nazi Germany.

00:17:53.700 But,

00:17:54.000 as I say,

00:17:54.480 you know,

00:17:54.900 it's very difficult

00:17:55.580 to kind of

00:17:56.140 convert the nation

00:17:57.500 when over 90%

00:17:59.080 are kind of

00:17:59.480 very against

00:18:00.400 going to war

00:18:01.620 at a particular time.

00:18:02.400 Well,

00:18:02.580 I think when we had

00:18:03.240 Randall Roberts on,

00:18:04.000 he mentioned that

00:18:04.620 Churchill at this point

00:18:05.480 was being called

00:18:06.180 a warmongerer

00:18:06.900 and people thought

00:18:07.860 he was,

00:18:08.260 you know,

00:18:08.760 way out there

00:18:10.100 and also,

00:18:11.860 given some of the things

00:18:12.760 that happened

00:18:13.100 in World War I,

00:18:13.840 he perhaps lost

00:18:15.000 some of the credibility

00:18:15.680 as well.

00:18:16.320 Well,

00:18:16.500 actually,

00:18:16.920 his credibility

00:18:17.280 was pretty medium.

00:18:18.820 Again,

00:18:19.120 you know,

00:18:19.260 he's a titanic figure

00:18:20.060 in British politics

00:18:20.720 and there's no,

00:18:21.440 you know,

00:18:21.680 even in 1938,

00:18:23.140 1939,

00:18:23.780 you can't,

00:18:24.460 before he comes

00:18:24.820 prime minister,

00:18:25.400 you can't argue

00:18:26.020 against that.

00:18:26.800 You know,

00:18:26.920 this is a guy

00:18:27.320 who's been in

00:18:27.880 politics for 40 years.

00:18:29.140 So,

00:18:29.560 you know,

00:18:29.820 he is a very,

00:18:32.900 very famous,

00:18:33.800 well-known figure

00:18:34.600 but he is on the

00:18:35.200 back benches.

00:18:35.920 You know,

00:18:36.140 his time in government

00:18:37.180 has seemingly passed

00:18:38.680 and the fact is

00:18:41.380 he's not known

00:18:42.680 to have the greatest

00:18:43.300 judgment

00:18:43.740 and,

00:18:44.220 you know,

00:18:44.660 he's pulled some

00:18:45.300 wrong ones

00:18:46.240 back the wrong horse,

00:18:48.040 you know,

00:18:48.520 without question.

00:18:50.320 You're talking about

00:18:50.760 Gallipoli?

00:18:52.020 I'm talking about

00:18:52.640 Gallipoli,

00:18:53.180 I'm talking about

00:18:53.560 being a chancellor

00:18:54.040 during the general strike,

00:18:55.160 I'm talking about,

00:18:55.820 you know,

00:18:56.160 backing King Edward VIII

00:18:57.400 in the abdication crisis.

00:18:59.780 You know,

00:18:59.940 there's lots of things.

00:19:01.000 I mean,

00:19:01.560 again,

00:19:02.100 it's not necessary

00:19:02.660 to say that he's wrong.

00:19:03.640 You know,

00:19:07.000 one can argue

00:19:07.840 and I think argue

00:19:08.700 reasonably convincingly

00:19:09.680 that the concept

00:19:10.480 of Gallipoli was fine.

00:19:11.640 It was the execution

00:19:12.360 that was the problem.

00:19:13.760 So,

00:19:14.060 you know,

00:19:14.640 but that's not really

00:19:16.360 the point.

00:19:16.800 The point is,

00:19:17.600 you know,

00:19:17.840 he's ended up

00:19:18.420 on the kind of sort of,

00:19:21.200 on some sort of

00:19:22.120 what seemed like

00:19:23.240 bad decisions.

00:19:24.540 His judgment

00:19:25.100 has been questioned

00:19:25.880 numerous times.

00:19:26.720 So,

00:19:26.920 you know,

00:19:27.140 when he stands up

00:19:28.980 and talks and says,

00:19:29.780 you know,

00:19:29.920 we mustn't appease

00:19:30.540 Nazi Germany,

00:19:31.320 not everyone's listening

00:19:32.740 by any stretch

00:19:33.320 of the imagination.

00:19:34.260 You know,

00:19:34.440 he's not the sort

00:19:35.040 of great sage

00:19:35.780 that it seems

00:19:36.900 like he was to become.

00:19:38.880 We've had our fair share

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00:21:17.920 What happens is

00:21:24.240 when Nazi Germany

00:21:25.540 invades Poland,

00:21:26.820 Britain and France,

00:21:28.520 you effectively feel

00:21:29.840 that they have to know.

00:21:31.280 Well, they have to though.

00:21:31.800 They have obligations

00:21:33.080 to a treaty.

00:21:33.820 I mean, you know,

00:21:34.260 if you break a treaty,

00:21:36.720 you know,

00:21:37.200 then you are morally bankrupt

00:21:39.040 as a nation.

00:21:40.220 You know,

00:21:40.440 your prestige,

00:21:41.920 your ability

00:21:42.920 to do business

00:21:43.840 around the world

00:21:44.680 absolutely promise

00:21:45.920 because no one trusts you.

00:21:46.900 I mean, you know,

00:21:47.720 this is what the United States

00:21:48.560 is discovering at the moment.

00:21:49.740 You know,

00:21:49.880 the moment you start

00:21:51.100 flip-flopping

00:21:52.120 and treating your allies

00:21:55.240 with disregard,

00:21:57.360 you get a drop of respect.

00:22:01.660 And one of the things

00:22:03.840 that I always found interesting

00:22:04.880 was France and Germany declared,

00:22:08.200 France and Britain declared

00:22:09.500 war in Germany

00:22:10.240 when this happened,

00:22:11.160 but they didn't actually

00:22:12.100 go and fight.

00:22:13.340 They basically went,

00:22:15.320 Poland, we're with you

00:22:16.700 and then just erected

00:22:18.920 defences on their border.

00:22:20.320 Well, France did,

00:22:21.840 I mean,

00:22:22.220 this is one of the sort

00:22:23.420 of great debating points

00:22:24.280 because France has

00:22:25.160 this huge army.

00:22:26.600 It has this ability,

00:22:27.360 it has this very,

00:22:28.120 very complex system

00:22:28.860 of reserves

00:22:29.360 where, you know,

00:22:30.240 people are conscripted

00:22:31.200 and then you're on

00:22:31.640 a reserve for three years

00:22:32.900 and eight years

00:22:33.640 and 16 years.

00:22:34.600 There's different

00:22:34.880 sort of scales of it.

00:22:36.180 So, you know,

00:22:36.700 literally overnight,

00:22:37.480 you can go from an army

00:22:38.180 of a million

00:22:38.600 to kind of four and a half million,

00:22:40.140 just like,

00:22:40.520 literally just like that.

00:22:41.380 And so it's all catered for,

00:22:43.740 had more artillery pieces

00:22:46.080 than Germany,

00:22:47.100 had more tanks

00:22:49.140 and bigger tanks

00:22:49.960 than Germany,

00:22:50.580 had parity in terms

00:22:51.600 of air power.

00:22:52.940 What it didn't have

00:22:53.560 is systems.

00:22:54.180 It didn't have

00:22:54.660 kind of communication network

00:22:56.320 that Nazi Germany had.

00:22:58.900 And so that was

00:22:59.700 this kind of big

00:23:00.420 Achilles heel.

00:23:01.520 But there is absolutely

00:23:02.420 no question

00:23:03.080 that Germany

00:23:04.900 was only just about ready

00:23:06.560 to go into Poland,

00:23:07.560 although it kind of,

00:23:08.840 you know,

00:23:09.100 got to Warsaw

00:23:09.900 in 17 days or whatever

00:23:10.920 and it looked like

00:23:11.800 a complete walkover.

00:23:14.020 It was sort of

00:23:15.060 putting sticking plaster

00:23:16.340 over quite a lot of cracks

00:23:17.780 in the whole system,

00:23:19.420 the way it's organized.

00:23:20.180 You know,

00:23:20.340 the entire German army

00:23:21.540 was trained.

00:23:22.220 It wasn't anything

00:23:22.740 like as mechanized

00:23:23.600 as it kind of,

00:23:24.440 like to kind of show reel

00:23:25.540 on the news,

00:23:26.780 et cetera, et cetera.

00:23:27.880 So it wasn't quite

00:23:29.620 the kind of

00:23:30.360 Nazi war machine

00:23:31.920 of Blitzkrieg,

00:23:33.060 you know,

00:23:33.380 superpower

00:23:33.860 that it sort of

00:23:35.300 came to seem like.

00:23:37.600 Well,

00:23:38.960 that sounds like

00:23:39.580 the perfect situation

00:23:40.540 in which France

00:23:41.220 and Britain

00:23:42.480 would be like,

00:23:43.280 well,

00:23:43.760 they've invaded Poland,

00:23:45.140 let's go and deal with them.

00:23:46.780 Well, yeah,

00:23:47.120 you'd have thought so,

00:23:47.660 wouldn't you?

00:23:48.540 So why didn't they?

00:23:49.500 Because they're French.

00:23:50.820 Well,

00:23:52.000 they did.

00:23:53.340 So they could have

00:23:54.360 absolutely gone

00:23:54.940 in through the back door.

00:23:55.600 They could have gone

00:23:56.040 into West Germany

00:23:56.600 and they'd have just

00:23:57.060 walked in

00:23:57.880 because there was

00:23:58.340 no opposition there at all.

00:23:59.780 And they didn't

00:24:01.240 because,

00:24:01.740 really because of

00:24:02.240 a lack of political will.

00:24:03.160 It's impossible

00:24:03.840 to make military decisions

00:24:05.680 about political will.

00:24:06.440 One of the problems

00:24:07.200 that France has

00:24:07.760 in the 1930s

00:24:08.720 is it's struggling

00:24:10.180 very badly

00:24:10.680 in the aftermath

00:24:11.100 of the First World War.

00:24:12.060 It's struggling economically

00:24:13.020 just like everyone else

00:24:13.840 because of the Great Depression.

00:24:15.560 And politically,

00:24:16.880 as I said before,

00:24:17.920 when you have political,

00:24:19.220 when you have economic turmoil,

00:24:20.320 you have political turmoil.

00:24:21.180 And that was absolutely

00:24:22.160 the case in France

00:24:22.960 in the 1930s.

00:24:24.200 A succession

00:24:25.360 of different governments,

00:24:27.280 all of them coalitions.

00:24:28.280 And we're not talking

00:24:28.860 about conservatives

00:24:30.000 and Lib Dems.

00:24:30.880 We're talking about

00:24:31.640 four or five party coalitions.

00:24:33.880 And communism

00:24:34.160 was very powerful,

00:24:35.200 wasn't it?

00:24:35.220 Well, communism

00:24:35.840 was increasingly powerful.

00:24:37.840 And the problem

00:24:38.560 you have with that

00:24:39.360 is it then makes

00:24:40.460 decision-making process

00:24:41.360 very, very difficult

00:24:42.820 because no one

00:24:43.600 can ever agree.

00:24:44.640 So if the senior

00:24:47.160 military figures

00:24:48.140 in a country

00:24:48.900 don't have their

00:24:49.680 political masters

00:24:50.380 going, right,

00:24:50.940 we want you to do this,

00:24:52.400 like that,

00:24:52.880 it's really,

00:24:53.700 really hard to enact.

00:24:54.760 And so that is a problem.

00:24:56.140 And the whole nature

00:24:57.000 of French military

00:24:58.700 was based on

00:24:59.280 defence, not attack.

00:25:00.620 So it wasn't geared up

00:25:01.840 for it.

00:25:02.200 And that's the

00:25:02.920 fundamental problem.

00:25:03.820 So they have

00:25:04.300 what's called

00:25:04.760 the Tsar offensive

00:25:08.320 where they go in

00:25:09.120 and basically

00:25:09.560 they cross the

00:25:10.420 German border,

00:25:11.700 there's a rattle

00:25:12.200 and machine gun

00:25:12.740 and then they

00:25:13.160 basically sort of

00:25:13.800 scuttle back again

00:25:14.460 and that's it.

00:25:15.640 And this is the

00:25:16.320 big frustration,

00:25:16.880 the big arguments

00:25:17.460 over, you know,

00:25:18.220 okay, well,

00:25:18.780 what do you do?

00:25:19.820 So Britain's navy,

00:25:21.880 as I've already

00:25:22.460 mentioned,

00:25:22.780 is the world's largest,

00:25:23.940 immediately imposes

00:25:24.640 an economic blockade

00:25:25.560 on Germany.

00:25:26.320 It's incredibly successful.

00:25:28.180 You know,

00:25:28.380 the ships are just

00:25:29.200 not getting into

00:25:29.900 Germany from outside

00:25:30.700 world from then on.

00:25:33.540 But, you know,

00:25:33.840 it doesn't have,

00:25:35.420 Britain doesn't have

00:25:36.020 huge armies,

00:25:36.460 there's a limited

00:25:36.880 amount of what

00:25:37.380 they can do.

00:25:37.940 If you're going to

00:25:38.800 do this continental

00:25:39.460 invasion,

00:25:40.340 it's got to basically

00:25:41.180 come from France

00:25:42.080 because they've got

00:25:43.420 the army to do it.

00:25:44.660 But as I said,

00:25:45.280 they don't have

00:25:45.620 a political will.

00:25:46.460 So what other

00:25:47.240 things you can do?

00:25:47.800 Well, you can do

00:25:48.140 other kind of sanctions

00:25:49.040 in the same way

00:25:49.620 that people are

00:25:50.060 condemning kind of

00:25:50.700 Russia when it

00:25:51.680 invades Ukraine.

00:25:52.360 It's the same

00:25:52.640 kind of principle.

00:25:53.820 You know,

00:25:54.060 we're at war with

00:25:55.060 them,

00:25:55.360 but what that

00:25:56.040 actually means is

00:25:56.960 we're at war,

00:25:58.120 but we're not

00:25:58.400 actually going to

00:25:58.820 do a huge amount

00:25:59.480 until we're kind

00:25:59.940 of ready to.

00:26:00.740 And, you know,

00:26:01.140 Britain,

00:26:01.440 there's an

00:26:01.700 acknowledgement

00:26:01.940 in Britain that

00:26:02.500 Britain is still

00:26:03.300 in the process

00:26:03.860 of rearming

00:26:04.420 and you don't

00:26:05.080 really want to

00:26:05.640 go on the attack.

00:26:06.440 You don't guarantee

00:26:06.940 that you're going

00:26:07.320 to win.

00:26:08.680 And there's a

00:26:09.300 kind of limit

00:26:09.700 to what you can

00:26:10.180 do.

00:26:10.420 You can threaten

00:26:11.260 with your naval

00:26:11.840 power,

00:26:12.540 but, you know,

00:26:14.500 you're doing the

00:26:15.160 blockade,

00:26:15.560 you're doing all

00:26:15.960 those things right.

00:26:16.560 So there is this

00:26:17.060 plan,

00:26:17.400 which is actually

00:26:17.700 put forward by

00:26:18.820 Churchill,

00:26:19.300 who's brought

00:26:19.540 back into the

00:26:20.000 government in

00:26:20.580 September 1939

00:26:21.480 into the Admiralty,

00:26:24.160 i.e.

00:26:24.420 sort of Secretary

00:26:25.020 of State for the

00:26:25.460 Navy,

00:26:25.720 effectively.

00:26:26.540 And he suggests

00:26:27.700 that what we

00:26:28.060 should do is

00:26:28.600 mine the Leeds.

00:26:30.420 And the Leeds

00:26:30.860 are these fjords

00:26:32.320 in the northern

00:26:32.820 part of Norway

00:26:34.080 through which

00:26:35.640 the German,

00:26:39.440 of the Swedish

00:26:40.140 iron ore mines

00:26:41.140 deliver their

00:26:42.100 produce to ships

00:26:43.600 which then sail

00:26:44.220 down the edge

00:26:44.660 of Norway into

00:26:45.380 the Baltic Sea

00:26:45.900 and into Germany.

00:26:46.920 This is the kind

00:26:47.620 of most common

00:26:47.980 way.

00:26:48.160 So he was

00:26:48.360 saying,

00:26:48.520 well,

00:26:48.780 let's try and

00:26:49.380 make it very,

00:26:49.880 very difficult

00:26:50.160 for Germans

00:26:50.880 to get that

00:26:51.340 iron ore.

00:26:53.240 The problem

00:26:53.780 is that the

00:26:54.120 French don't

00:26:54.480 agree.

00:26:55.860 So by the

00:26:57.440 time the

00:26:57.840 French and

00:26:58.140 the British

00:26:58.400 agree,

00:26:58.900 it's April

00:26:59.320 1940.

00:27:00.300 They've just

00:27:00.580 been going

00:27:00.800 back and

00:27:01.160 forth,

00:27:01.340 back and

00:27:01.580 forth,

00:27:01.800 back and

00:27:02.040 forth.

00:27:02.640 And

00:27:02.860 Chamberlain's

00:27:03.440 always blamed

00:27:03.860 for this.

00:27:04.300 But again,

00:27:05.020 they're a part

00:27:06.080 of an alliance

00:27:06.700 with France.

00:27:08.020 France is

00:27:09.080 nervous and

00:27:10.100 politically

00:27:10.500 all over the

00:27:11.920 place.

00:27:13.400 It's very

00:27:14.100 difficult to

00:27:15.080 operate

00:27:15.800 unilaterally

00:27:16.560 when you're

00:27:17.140 part of an

00:27:17.900 alliance and

00:27:18.460 the lion's

00:27:19.520 share of

00:27:19.900 the ground

00:27:20.660 operations is

00:27:21.520 going to be

00:27:21.800 done by your

00:27:22.460 partner in

00:27:23.600 that alliance.

00:27:24.940 So,

00:27:25.220 as I say,

00:27:27.000 Chamberlain will

00:27:27.380 get to blame

00:27:27.800 for it.

00:27:28.220 But by the

00:27:28.600 time the

00:27:29.160 decision's

00:27:29.580 actually made,

00:27:31.320 it's the

00:27:31.580 beginning of

00:27:31.860 April.

00:27:33.160 And at the

00:27:33.940 beginning of

00:27:34.200 April,

00:27:34.760 Nazi Germany

00:27:35.220 then turns

00:27:35.740 its attention

00:27:36.900 to Norway

00:27:37.360 and Denmark.

00:27:38.180 and we

00:27:40.420 miss the

00:27:40.740 bus.

00:27:41.680 You know

00:27:41.900 what's really

00:27:42.440 interesting is

00:27:43.260 the way that

00:27:43.760 you're describing

00:27:44.320 this is that,

00:27:45.220 look, we all

00:27:45.980 agree that

00:27:46.520 democracy is the

00:27:47.380 best form of

00:27:47.940 government.

00:27:48.700 But when it

00:27:49.100 comes to war,

00:27:50.400 actually it's

00:27:51.560 more helpful to

00:27:52.780 have a dictator

00:27:53.780 because they

00:27:54.800 make the

00:27:55.120 decision, the

00:27:56.340 wheels are put

00:27:56.820 in motion,

00:27:57.920 and boom,

00:27:59.120 you can stage

00:28:00.120 an invasion or

00:28:00.800 whatever it is

00:28:01.420 that you want.

00:28:02.320 Yes and no.

00:28:03.340 It's not quite as

00:28:04.680 simple as that.

00:28:05.180 The problem

00:28:06.020 with dictatorship

00:28:06.540 is the

00:28:07.440 dictator is an

00:28:08.200 autocrat, and

00:28:09.160 the autocrat is

00:28:09.740 surrounded by

00:28:10.120 sycophants and

00:28:10.740 people who tell

00:28:11.360 him what he

00:28:11.600 wants to hear.

00:28:12.580 So the

00:28:12.940 decision-making

00:28:13.500 process for a

00:28:14.940 dictator is very

00:28:15.700 poor.

00:28:17.580 And it's fine

00:28:19.160 when things are

00:28:19.680 going well.

00:28:20.500 Well, it's not

00:28:20.780 fine, but it's

00:28:21.340 manageable when

00:28:22.280 things are going

00:28:22.660 well because it

00:28:23.120 means you can

00:28:23.460 make things happen

00:28:24.040 very quickly.

00:28:24.840 You can be

00:28:25.220 decisive.

00:28:26.480 But when things

00:28:27.080 are going badly,

00:28:27.840 it's really not

00:28:28.860 because you've

00:28:29.360 still got people

00:28:29.860 telling you,

00:28:30.480 saying, yes,

00:28:31.180 yes, yes,

00:28:31.420 mine,

00:28:31.620 Führer, or

00:28:32.000 yes, yes,

00:28:32.360 yes, yes,

00:28:33.160 you know,

00:28:33.500 Comrade Stalin

00:28:34.860 or yes, yes,

00:28:35.760 yes,

00:28:35.980 you know,

00:28:36.600 Il Duce or

00:28:37.180 whatever it

00:28:37.520 might be.

00:28:38.720 And they're not

00:28:39.460 best placed very

00:28:40.320 often to make

00:28:41.000 these decisions.

00:28:41.740 You know,

00:28:41.880 what's brought

00:28:42.580 them to the

00:28:43.080 top of the

00:28:43.460 pile doesn't

00:28:44.120 necessarily make

00:28:44.840 them a very

00:28:45.300 good political

00:28:46.040 or military

00:28:46.820 geopolitical

00:28:47.720 leader.

00:28:48.720 And that is

00:28:49.420 certainly the

00:28:50.020 case of Hitler

00:28:50.700 and Mussolini,

00:28:52.080 who have very,

00:28:53.180 very narrow

00:28:53.580 worldviews.

00:28:54.340 I mean,

00:28:54.560 you know,

00:28:54.800 Hitler is

00:28:55.200 completely incapable

00:28:56.320 of looking at

00:28:56.880 anything other

00:28:58.000 than through the

00:28:58.460 prism of his

00:28:58.960 own worldview,

00:28:59.700 which is

00:29:00.060 obviously

00:29:00.400 incredibly narrow,

00:29:02.160 continentalist,

00:29:03.500 warped by his

00:29:04.740 very suspect

00:29:06.720 ideology,

00:29:07.780 et cetera,

00:29:08.140 et cetera.

00:29:09.080 So for him,

00:29:10.740 it's all about

00:29:11.620 land power because

00:29:12.640 he's a continentalist,

00:29:13.600 you know,

00:29:13.700 he's a land lover.

00:29:14.780 Whereas for Britain,

00:29:16.520 it's an island nation,

00:29:17.640 it's all about,

00:29:18.220 you know,

00:29:18.440 naval power is key.

00:29:20.600 So it's,

00:29:21.020 you know,

00:29:21.340 it depends on how

00:29:23.000 you're looking at it.

00:29:23.680 And I think one of the

00:29:24.620 things that makes the

00:29:25.440 Allies very fortunate

00:29:26.760 is that when Churchill

00:29:28.140 does come to power

00:29:29.040 on the 10th of May,

00:29:29.660 1940,

00:29:30.220 and when America

00:29:32.040 starts to kind of

00:29:33.080 get peripherally

00:29:34.140 involved in the war

00:29:34.660 and then comes into

00:29:35.240 the war itself,

00:29:35.820 they have both,

00:29:36.740 they have two leaders.

00:29:37.680 We have Franklin Delano

00:29:39.200 Roosevelt as president

00:29:40.520 of the United States

00:29:41.260 and Churchill as prime

00:29:42.140 minister of the United

00:29:43.180 Kingdom,

00:29:44.180 who have immense

00:29:45.340 geopolitical understanding.

00:29:46.600 I mean,

00:29:46.720 they just get it.

00:29:47.580 They get that big

00:29:48.660 picture worldview,

00:29:50.240 which is incredibly

00:29:51.000 helpful.

00:29:51.440 And both of them

00:29:52.020 are surrounded by

00:29:52.800 people who are able

00:29:54.060 to advise,

00:29:55.320 stick up for their

00:29:56.080 guns,

00:29:56.500 stick up for what

00:29:57.100 they believe in.

00:29:57.900 And the decision-making

00:29:59.740 process is way,

00:30:00.980 way better.

00:30:02.100 The problem with

00:30:02.820 France and the

00:30:03.720 problem with the

00:30:04.160 alliance between

00:30:04.680 Britain and France

00:30:05.340 in the start of the

00:30:06.080 war is that France

00:30:09.280 doesn't have that

00:30:10.500 clarity of political

00:30:11.720 thought because of

00:30:13.100 its fractured nature

00:30:14.420 of politics,

00:30:14.980 which are a direct

00:30:16.640 result of the

00:30:17.360 financial crisis born

00:30:19.420 out of the First

00:30:20.380 World War and

00:30:20.840 then subsequently

00:30:21.260 the Great Depression.

00:30:22.980 So democracy is

00:30:24.580 absolutely tops when

00:30:27.120 you are following

00:30:27.840 a single purpose

00:30:28.860 and when the

00:30:30.160 political leadership

00:30:34.520 is unified,

00:30:36.240 the problems come

00:30:36.980 when it's fractured.

00:30:38.200 Absolutely.

00:30:39.140 So there's one

00:30:39.940 thing that I want

00:30:40.420 to focus on,

00:30:41.140 which is it always

00:30:43.060 gets skipped a

00:30:44.240 little bit as to

00:30:45.100 how Churchill came

00:30:46.640 to power in the

00:30:47.320 UK.

00:30:47.960 So what actually

00:30:48.860 happened there?

00:30:50.380 So what happens

00:30:50.840 is Germany

00:30:52.140 suddenly does this

00:30:53.380 lightning attack on

00:30:54.220 Denmark.

00:30:54.620 Denmark falls in

00:30:55.340 about half an hour.

00:30:56.880 Norway takes a

00:30:57.480 little bit longer,

00:30:58.100 but this is just

00:30:59.820 at the moment

00:31:00.800 that this decision

00:31:01.600 to mine the

00:31:02.220 Leeds,

00:31:02.640 these channels

00:31:03.400 through which

00:31:04.100 Swedish iron ore

00:31:05.840 flows in the

00:31:06.500 northern part of

00:31:07.180 Norway,

00:31:08.040 is taken.

00:31:09.380 And so it looks

00:31:10.120 like, you know,

00:31:11.200 to Parliament,

00:31:13.440 you know,

00:31:13.880 they're still debating

00:31:14.640 in the Chamber

00:31:15.140 and all the rest of it,

00:31:15.700 it looks like

00:31:17.000 Chamberlain has been

00:31:18.500 faffing about,

00:31:19.620 being indecisive,

00:31:21.380 you know,

00:31:21.940 and has been

00:31:22.280 caught napping,

00:31:23.020 you know,

00:31:23.220 while he's been

00:31:23.800 fanning around,

00:31:24.720 not making a

00:31:25.340 decision,

00:31:26.200 you know,

00:31:26.420 the Germans

00:31:26.760 have gone

00:31:27.020 through the

00:31:27.280 back door.

00:31:27.900 That is the

00:31:29.080 kind of how

00:31:29.480 it is viewed.

00:31:31.420 And everyone's

00:31:32.220 fed up,

00:31:32.520 it's like,

00:31:32.780 hang on a minute,

00:31:33.240 we went to war

00:31:33.880 in 1939,

00:31:35.140 in September 1939,

00:31:36.380 we haven't done

00:31:36.760 anything.

00:31:37.420 And of course

00:31:37.760 that isn't true,

00:31:38.680 there's lots

00:31:39.160 been going on,

00:31:39.840 you know,

00:31:39.980 factories being

00:31:40.560 built,

00:31:41.220 more spitfires

00:31:41.760 being built,

00:31:42.580 more ships

00:31:43.020 being built,

00:31:43.740 you know,

00:31:43.960 more guns,

00:31:44.780 more everything.

00:31:45.680 You know,

00:31:45.860 so it's not

00:31:46.720 like it's wasted

00:31:47.360 time.

00:31:48.260 But politics is

00:31:49.220 politics of

00:31:50.000 perception,

00:31:50.580 as we absolutely

00:31:51.620 know,

00:31:52.000 it's still very

00:31:52.880 much the case

00:31:53.460 to today.

00:31:54.340 So there is

00:31:56.680 a feeling,

00:31:57.360 there is a sense

00:31:58.340 that this is

00:31:59.760 a great

00:32:00.040 humiliation,

00:32:01.060 that Britain's

00:32:02.540 been caught

00:32:02.960 napping,

00:32:03.580 so is France,

00:32:04.300 but, you know,

00:32:04.680 Parliament can't

00:32:05.080 do anything

00:32:05.320 about France,

00:32:06.060 but they can

00:32:06.600 complain about

00:32:07.100 their own

00:32:07.500 leaders.

00:32:08.240 And so there

00:32:08.600 is a vote

00:32:08.900 of no confidence

00:32:09.500 and, you know,

00:32:10.220 Chamberlain gets

00:32:10.660 ousted.

00:32:11.400 There are only

00:32:11.720 two real people

00:32:12.800 at this point

00:32:13.260 who could take

00:32:14.220 over.

00:32:14.460 One is Lord

00:32:14.840 Halifax,

00:32:15.300 who sits in

00:32:15.800 the House of

00:32:16.140 Lords,

00:32:16.800 and he's

00:32:17.140 probably the

00:32:18.980 most respected

00:32:19.680 politician in the

00:32:21.320 country,

00:32:21.640 he's a former

00:32:21.940 Viceroy,

00:32:23.300 a scion of

00:32:24.420 an aristocratic

00:32:25.020 family,

00:32:26.260 known for

00:32:28.200 his sound,

00:32:29.780 good judgment,

00:32:31.400 and very much,

00:32:32.740 you know,

00:32:33.200 a firm hand on

00:32:34.780 the tiller kind

00:32:35.500 of type.

00:32:36.260 Then there's

00:32:37.020 Churchill,

00:32:38.100 who is this

00:32:39.040 titan of British

00:32:39.780 politics,

00:32:40.280 but has this

00:32:41.040 slightly,

00:32:41.300 slightly

00:32:41.820 questionable

00:32:43.520 judgment and,

00:32:45.880 you know,

00:32:46.240 track record,

00:32:47.400 and, you know,

00:32:48.320 there's no question

00:32:48.900 that he's more

00:32:49.460 charismatic,

00:32:50.560 but is he the

00:32:51.520 right man?

00:32:53.140 And the

00:32:55.000 king,

00:32:55.860 George VI,

00:32:56.480 for example,

00:32:57.000 you know,

00:32:57.220 he knows

00:32:57.580 Halifax very

00:32:58.120 well,

00:32:58.320 he's a personal

00:32:58.700 friend,

00:32:59.760 and favours him.

00:33:02.320 Chamberlain,

00:33:02.800 who is a close

00:33:03.460 friend and

00:33:03.940 colleague of

00:33:04.800 Halifax as well,

00:33:06.540 favours him to

00:33:08.480 take over,

00:33:09.740 but Halifax doesn't

00:33:10.680 have the stomach

00:33:11.100 for it.

00:33:11.580 He doesn't want

00:33:12.520 to take it,

00:33:13.120 and says,

00:33:13.420 I just,

00:33:14.420 you know,

00:33:14.580 he feels

00:33:15.000 physically sick

00:33:16.320 all day on

00:33:17.180 the 9th of May,

00:33:18.560 and declines.

00:33:21.200 So then there's

00:33:21.760 only really one

00:33:22.420 option,

00:33:23.080 and that's

00:33:23.420 Churchill.

00:33:23.800 So Churchill

00:33:24.260 isn't elected

00:33:25.100 prime minister.

00:33:26.320 It's a kind of,

00:33:27.000 you know,

00:33:27.180 he comes to

00:33:27.800 the power

00:33:27.960 the same way

00:33:28.300 that Rishi Sunak

00:33:28.940 came to power

00:33:29.620 or his trust

00:33:30.120 comes to power.

00:33:31.640 And, you know,

00:33:33.860 he's invited

00:33:34.260 to form a

00:33:34.620 government,

00:33:35.100 and it's no

00:33:35.920 longer a

00:33:36.320 conservative

00:33:36.680 parliament,

00:33:37.080 and it becomes

00:33:37.440 part of the

00:33:37.880 deal,

00:33:38.800 which Churchill

00:33:41.420 is accepted

00:33:43.260 as the new

00:33:43.900 prime minister

00:33:44.360 is that there

00:33:44.860 will be a

00:33:45.240 new national

00:33:46.060 government of

00:33:46.820 multiple,

00:33:47.260 you know,

00:33:47.400 of all three

00:33:47.920 major parties,

00:33:48.760 Labour,

00:33:49.800 Liberals,

00:33:50.840 and Conservatives,

00:33:52.300 and there is

00:33:52.640 going to be now,

00:33:53.280 there is going

00:33:53.700 to be a war

00:33:54.100 cabinet in which

00:33:54.860 those parties

00:33:55.560 will be represented.

00:33:56.480 So suddenly

00:33:56.980 there's a

00:33:57.280 five-man war

00:33:57.860 cabinet,

00:33:58.420 which is Halifax

00:33:59.260 as Foreign

00:34:00.540 Secretary,

00:34:01.620 Chamberlain,

00:34:02.500 who is

00:34:02.880 obviously

00:34:03.440 the deposed

00:34:04.160 prime minister,

00:34:05.640 but, you know,

00:34:06.360 it's obvious

00:34:06.860 that you'd have

00:34:07.300 him in.

00:34:07.680 Again,

00:34:08.120 he's a

00:34:08.540 titanic figure

00:34:09.260 in British

00:34:10.120 politics.

00:34:11.060 And then

00:34:11.300 there's,

00:34:11.700 then there's

00:34:13.400 Attlee and

00:34:14.180 Greenwood from

00:34:14.620 the Labour

00:34:14.920 Party.

00:34:16.060 Archibald

00:34:16.360 Sinclair is

00:34:17.040 the Minister

00:34:18.340 of State

00:34:18.760 for AIR,

00:34:19.820 and he's a

00:34:20.380 liberal.

00:34:21.000 So, you

00:34:21.300 know,

00:34:21.520 it's a change.

00:34:23.260 It's a big

00:34:24.000 seismic shift.

00:34:25.180 But Churchill

00:34:25.760 on the 10th of

00:34:26.360 May doesn't

00:34:26.960 have this huge

00:34:27.640 great authority.

00:34:28.900 He's come

00:34:29.260 about, you

00:34:29.860 know,

00:34:29.960 and he

00:34:30.140 obviously says,

00:34:31.020 oh, isn't

00:34:31.260 it ironic,

00:34:31.700 he'd become

00:34:32.000 prime minister

00:34:32.440 when it was

00:34:32.760 his idea to

00:34:33.260 go and form

00:34:33.620 the Leeds

00:34:33.940 end in the

00:34:34.320 first place,

00:34:34.820 and that's

00:34:35.120 what led

00:34:36.060 to Chamberlain's

00:34:36.900 downfall.

00:34:37.440 But Churchill

00:34:38.760 had been

00:34:38.980 saying,

00:34:39.160 let's go

00:34:39.480 and mind

00:34:40.480 the Leeds

00:34:40.760 in September

00:34:41.220 1939,

00:34:42.340 not in

00:34:43.280 April.

00:34:43.820 He's saying,

00:34:44.420 let's get

00:34:44.780 on with it.

00:34:46.160 And of

00:34:46.600 course,

00:34:46.740 the reason

00:34:47.000 it hasn't

00:34:47.380 happened until

00:34:47.720 April,

00:34:48.020 for all the

00:34:48.320 reasons we've

00:34:49.300 just been

00:34:49.520 discussing.

00:34:51.280 But on the

00:34:51.800 10th of

00:34:52.080 May,

00:34:52.220 the very

00:34:52.640 same day

00:34:53.480 that Churchill

00:34:54.380 becomes

00:34:54.720 prime minister

00:34:55.180 is also

00:34:55.780 the same

00:34:56.260 day that

00:34:56.840 Germany

00:34:57.140 then invades

00:34:58.080 the low

00:34:58.320 countries

00:34:58.640 in France.

00:34:59.220 And this

00:34:59.420 is Case

00:34:59.980 Yellow,

00:35:00.900 Operation

00:35:01.520 Yellow,

00:35:02.100 the blitzkrieg

00:35:03.440 in the

00:35:03.700 West.

00:35:04.020 This is the

00:35:04.480 real proper

00:35:06.240 start of the

00:35:07.440 war.

00:35:08.440 And why

00:35:08.900 I think a lot

00:35:10.720 of people

00:35:11.040 in Britain,

00:35:11.360 I'm not

00:35:11.700 British originally,

00:35:12.720 although I am

00:35:13.120 now,

00:35:13.520 a lot of

00:35:14.060 people in

00:35:14.380 Britain love

00:35:14.980 to joke

00:35:15.340 about the

00:35:15.680 French.

00:35:16.020 I've now

00:35:16.360 adopted this

00:35:16.960 as well.

00:35:17.620 But is it

00:35:18.260 actually the

00:35:18.840 case it was

00:35:19.300 partly the

00:35:19.780 Belgians'

00:35:20.360 fault that

00:35:20.940 the lowland

00:35:21.960 countries were

00:35:22.480 overrun as

00:35:22.860 much as they

00:35:23.320 were?

00:35:23.660 Churchill talks

00:35:24.240 about in

00:35:24.640 his book

00:35:26.240 about World

00:35:26.720 War II in

00:35:27.360 that they

00:35:28.120 refused to

00:35:28.900 let the

00:35:29.540 French and

00:35:30.040 the Brits

00:35:30.420 move up to

00:35:31.560 better defensive

00:35:32.260 positions.

00:35:32.940 And so because

00:35:33.680 of that,

00:35:34.580 the whole thing

00:35:35.540 ended up

00:35:36.060 collapsing.

00:35:36.440 How much

00:35:36.940 truth is there

00:35:37.440 to that?

00:35:38.200 Is it all the

00:35:38.720 Belgians' fault

00:35:39.260 is what I'm

00:35:39.620 asking you,

00:35:40.100 James?

00:35:40.240 It's certainly

00:35:40.780 not all the

00:35:41.160 Belgians' fault

00:35:41.620 by the

00:35:41.900 imagination.

00:35:42.680 That's

00:35:42.700 disappointing.

00:35:43.760 It's the

00:35:44.220 French as

00:35:44.620 well.

00:35:44.980 All right.

00:35:45.380 A little bit

00:35:46.460 more nuanced.

00:35:47.600 So down the

00:35:48.980 eastern border of

00:35:51.660 France, the

00:35:52.740 western border of

00:35:53.380 Germany, that is

00:35:54.540 where the

00:35:54.780 Maginot line is.

00:35:55.600 And that is

00:35:56.000 this incredibly

00:35:56.860 expensive, serious

00:35:57.840 of defence

00:35:58.280 projects.

00:35:58.920 The principle

00:35:59.860 behind it is that

00:36:00.880 it will be just

00:36:01.280 like the First

00:36:01.660 World War if

00:36:02.000 there's another

00:36:02.620 conflict, i.e.

00:36:06.000 long drawn out

00:36:06.880 and static, and

00:36:08.420 he who has the

00:36:09.220 best defences and

00:36:10.220 best build-up of

00:36:11.260 armaments and

00:36:12.000 supplies will win.

00:36:13.340 He'll just grind

00:36:14.000 down the enemy.

00:36:15.020 And this is

00:36:15.340 certainly true in

00:36:15.860 case of, you

00:36:16.360 know, the whole

00:36:17.400 principle of war

00:36:18.360 that dictates how

00:36:20.380 Germany fights

00:36:21.080 this war, first

00:36:21.600 Prussia, then

00:36:22.120 Germany, is this

00:36:24.120 understanding that

00:36:26.100 Germany lives in

00:36:27.580 the sector of

00:36:28.300 Europe.

00:36:28.600 Europe, it's not

00:36:29.080 resource-rich, it

00:36:29.740 doesn't have

00:36:30.080 access to world

00:36:30.920 oceans, therefore

00:36:31.780 it has to fight

00:36:32.680 its wars very

00:36:33.400 quickly.

00:36:34.780 And this goes

00:36:35.520 back to

00:36:35.820 Frederick the

00:36:36.140 Great, it

00:36:36.700 goes back to

00:36:37.060 Frederick the

00:36:37.460 Great in the

00:36:40.320 18th century, it

00:36:42.040 goes back to, you

00:36:43.040 know, wars against

00:36:43.760 Denmark in 1864,

00:36:48.100 Austria in 1866,

00:36:50.180 Franco-Praschen

00:36:50.780 War of, you

00:36:51.540 know, 1870-71.

00:36:53.720 You know, the

00:36:54.560 idea is that what

00:36:55.540 you do is you

00:36:56.340 attack with a

00:36:58.000 two-fisted, a

00:36:58.700 punch, bam, bam,

00:37:00.440 then you kind of

00:37:01.080 encircle your

00:37:01.740 enemy, completely

00:37:02.340 destroy them, and

00:37:02.860 you do all this in

00:37:03.500 a kind of matter of

00:37:04.000 days or weeks, you

00:37:05.080 know, because

00:37:05.900 Germany doesn't

00:37:07.980 have the strength

00:37:08.560 for a long-drawn-out

00:37:09.320 war.

00:37:10.180 France knows this,

00:37:12.060 and if you want

00:37:13.300 proof of this, the

00:37:14.400 First World War is

00:37:15.060 the exact example.

00:37:16.200 You know, the whole

00:37:16.520 point about the way

00:37:17.340 the Germans kind of

00:37:18.100 invaded the low

00:37:18.640 countries in 1914

00:37:19.780 was to sweep in

00:37:20.860 very fast, you

00:37:21.720 know, it's a war of

00:37:22.640 manoeuvre, of rapid

00:37:23.940 manoeuvre, overwhelm

00:37:24.760 your enemies, get to

00:37:25.580 Paris, put the flag

00:37:26.880 up, negotiate,

00:37:28.160 win the war, off

00:37:29.480 you go.

00:37:29.980 You know, it's all

00:37:30.320 over by Christmas,

00:37:31.380 or even, you know,

00:37:32.820 all over by the

00:37:33.400 autumn.

00:37:34.020 That's the principle

00:37:35.060 behind it.

00:37:36.180 One of the reasons

00:37:36.660 why Germany loses is

00:37:37.700 because it gets

00:37:38.460 drawn into this

00:37:39.280 long, years-long

00:37:41.780 war where it

00:37:43.440 can't win because

00:37:44.500 it doesn't have the

00:37:45.540 resources and the

00:37:46.260 money to be able to

00:37:46.820 kind of maintain it.

00:37:47.420 It doesn't have the

00:37:47.760 food, it doesn't have

00:37:48.600 the supplies, it just

00:37:49.660 can't access them, it

00:37:50.740 doesn't have the

00:37:51.280 oceans, etc., etc.

00:37:52.920 So France knows

00:37:54.040 this, which is why

00:37:55.200 if they're ever going

00:37:56.060 to go to war with

00:37:57.200 France again, it's

00:37:58.060 going to make sure

00:37:58.540 its defences are

00:37:59.260 better.

00:38:00.320 So in the next

00:38:01.620 static war, it'll be

00:38:02.440 able to stop this

00:38:03.360 aggressive kind of

00:38:04.380 free-flowing German

00:38:05.380 forces, stop them in

00:38:06.840 their tracks, and

00:38:08.480 then they will kind of

00:38:10.460 be able to grind them

00:38:11.320 down by its alliance

00:38:12.720 with Britain and

00:38:13.440 access to the world's

00:38:14.200 supplies and all the

00:38:15.000 rest of it.

00:38:15.260 You know, there's a

00:38:15.920 sort of logic to it.

00:38:17.780 The problem with

00:38:18.760 that is that what

00:38:19.540 you do with a bit

00:38:20.220 that doesn't border

00:38:21.360 Germany, so that bit

00:38:23.460 is dealt with by the

00:38:24.300 Maginot Line, which

00:38:25.100 isn't a sort of like a

00:38:26.100 Great Wall of China

00:38:26.760 or anything.

00:38:27.180 This is a series of

00:38:28.180 highly fortified

00:38:29.680 fortifications, heavy

00:38:33.140 guns, minefields,

00:38:34.820 wire, interconnecting

00:38:35.840 trenches, all the rest

00:38:36.820 of it.

00:38:37.040 You know, an army's not

00:38:38.540 going to try that on.

00:38:39.440 It's not going to get

00:38:40.080 across the, you know,

00:38:41.260 the River Rhone and,

00:38:42.120 you know, and force

00:38:44.600 its way that way.

00:38:45.440 Then there's a

00:38:47.220 hinge, and the hinge

00:38:48.180 is the Ardennes, which

00:38:50.740 is this wooded area,

00:38:51.860 which in the French

00:38:52.400 bit is around the town

00:38:53.920 of kind of sort of

00:38:55.280 Sedan.

00:38:57.800 And then you've got

00:38:58.760 the northern French

00:38:59.500 border, which borders

00:39:00.260 with Belgium.

00:39:01.800 And what happened in

00:39:03.460 the First World War

00:39:04.100 was most of the war

00:39:04.980 had been fought in

00:39:05.540 that northern part of

00:39:06.440 France, which is this

00:39:07.100 industrial heartland,

00:39:08.140 and absolutely

00:39:08.700 devastated it.

00:39:09.540 The French were very

00:39:10.020 anxious for obvious

00:39:10.740 reasons not to do

00:39:11.640 that again.

00:39:12.680 So should Germany

00:39:14.880 ever invade.

00:39:15.740 The plan was to

00:39:16.340 then go into

00:39:17.080 Belgium, but because

00:39:18.040 Belgium was neutral

00:39:18.960 again, as it had

00:39:20.260 been in 1914, it

00:39:21.620 didn't want allied

00:39:23.820 forces going into

00:39:24.880 Belgium before any

00:39:26.420 declaration of war or

00:39:27.540 any aggressive action

00:39:28.440 on the part of the

00:39:29.040 Germans in 1939,

00:39:30.820 1940 or whatever,

00:39:32.060 because that would be

00:39:33.960 pinning their colours

00:39:34.820 to a particular mast,

00:39:36.260 and they didn't want

00:39:36.820 to antagonise Germany.

00:39:38.400 So that's why they

00:39:39.640 said, no, no, you

00:39:40.660 French and British,

00:39:41.280 you can't come into

00:39:42.200 France.

00:39:43.680 So the plan for

00:39:44.600 France and Britain

00:39:45.180 was, should the

00:39:46.220 Germans attack, they

00:39:47.020 would move forward to

00:39:48.020 a line, which would be

00:39:48.900 the Dial Line, which is

00:39:50.900 a canal in Belgium, and

00:39:53.180 they would hold the

00:39:54.620 Germans there, see where

00:39:56.420 the main thrust was,

00:39:57.960 then get all their

00:39:59.800 reserves up, and then

00:40:00.760 counterattack.

00:40:01.440 But all this would be

00:40:02.020 incredibly slow and

00:40:02.820 methodical.

00:40:04.040 The reason why it all

00:40:05.500 goes pear-shaped is

00:40:06.560 because they don't

00:40:07.500 anticipate a thrust

00:40:08.560 through the Ardennes.

00:40:09.280 The Ardennes is a

00:40:10.620 sort of wooded area of

00:40:11.760 Belgium and Luxembourg

00:40:12.900 and northeast France.

00:40:15.560 It's very hilly, it's

00:40:16.620 sort of intercut by

00:40:18.380 lots of winding rivers,

00:40:20.180 and a modern

00:40:21.040 mechanised force, it

00:40:22.200 was felt, probably

00:40:23.180 wouldn't be able to

00:40:23.820 effectively get through

00:40:24.780 there because of all

00:40:25.540 these little narrow

00:40:26.140 roads.

00:40:26.600 And we're not talking

00:40:27.300 about motorways

00:40:29.100 cutting through them,

00:40:29.880 we're not talking

00:40:30.460 about asphalted,

00:40:31.540 tarmac roads, we're

00:40:32.520 talking about dirt

00:40:33.400 roads, effectively

00:40:34.780 sort of country

00:40:35.560 tracks going through

00:40:36.500 this incredibly wooden

00:40:37.720 kind of sparse,

00:40:39.640 wooded, sparse area,

00:40:41.120 hilly, river-cut area

00:40:42.820 of Belgium.

00:40:43.380 And it didn't seem

00:40:44.040 very likely that the

00:40:45.200 Germans make their

00:40:46.120 main armoured thrust

00:40:47.040 through there.

00:40:48.240 But that's, of course,

00:40:48.840 is precisely why the

00:40:49.700 Germans did decide to

00:40:50.680 do that because they

00:40:51.440 knew that this was

00:40:52.540 their area of least

00:40:53.960 expectation.

00:40:55.140 So the Germans had

00:40:55.860 this plan where they

00:40:56.480 were going to do the

00:40:57.060 traditional one, which

00:40:58.380 is what they'd done in

00:40:59.300 1870 and what they

00:41:00.200 did in 1914, of cutting

00:41:02.860 through into the low

00:41:04.000 countries because that's

00:41:04.800 where the passage is

00:41:05.640 easier because it's

00:41:06.180 low and flat and easy

00:41:07.520 to sort of navigate

00:41:09.240 your way around and

00:41:11.600 draw the Allies up to

00:41:13.580 meet them and then

00:41:14.520 cut in round the

00:41:15.400 back while they

00:41:16.000 weren't looking through

00:41:16.640 the Ardennes.

00:41:17.440 And that is exactly

00:41:18.420 what they do.

00:41:19.420 The reason the Germans

00:41:20.480 were able to pull it

00:41:21.380 off is because of

00:41:24.260 radio.

00:41:25.240 And what is really

00:41:26.040 interesting is that

00:41:26.660 when the Nazis get

00:41:28.200 into power in 1933,

00:41:29.300 they immediately start

00:41:30.340 thinking about how

00:41:31.260 they're going to

00:41:31.720 totally dominate the

00:41:32.800 media.

00:41:33.480 They're going to

00:41:33.840 just sort of strip it

00:41:34.500 there.

00:41:34.720 They're going to take

00:41:35.080 it to the cinemas,

00:41:35.800 they're going to take

00:41:36.160 it to the news stations,

00:41:36.980 they're going to

00:41:37.320 take it to the

00:41:37.620 newspapers, and

00:41:38.640 they're also going to

00:41:39.340 broadcast.

00:41:39.980 And one of the things

00:41:40.440 that's really interesting

00:41:41.060 is in the 1930s, radio

00:41:42.420 was still quite

00:41:43.020 aspirational.

00:41:44.000 You know, you'd have

00:41:44.400 these huge, great, you

00:41:45.300 know, wire sets with

00:41:46.880 its kind of lacquered

00:41:47.760 fronts and, you know,

00:41:48.980 chestnut, you know,

00:41:50.520 walnut coverings and all

00:41:52.420 the rest of it.

00:41:53.280 And they're aspirational

00:41:54.300 and middle class and,

00:41:55.440 you know, expensive.

00:41:57.260 It was like a 4K TV, you

00:41:59.200 know, five years ago or

00:41:59.980 something like that.

00:42:00.480 Right.

00:42:00.820 Yeah.

00:42:01.600 So what the Germans

00:42:03.300 decided was actually,

00:42:04.640 you know, the basic

00:42:05.820 principle of radio is

00:42:06.640 quite simple.

00:42:07.360 We can make these an

00:42:07.880 awful lot cheaper.

00:42:08.640 So what they do is they

00:42:09.300 create the Deutsche

00:42:10.140 Fanger, which is a

00:42:11.740 German radio, and then

00:42:13.020 they create the

00:42:13.940 Deutsche Kleinung

00:42:14.960 Fanger, which is a

00:42:16.200 German little radio.

00:42:17.240 And this is nine inches

00:42:18.580 by four inches by four

00:42:19.500 inches, made out of

00:42:21.600 Bakelite, which is a

00:42:22.500 form of primitive, you

00:42:23.760 know, early plastic.

00:42:25.040 Incredibly simple and

00:42:26.020 very cheap.

00:42:26.920 And this was as

00:42:29.360 revolutionary as the

00:42:30.260 arrival of the iPod when

00:42:31.340 it first came into

00:42:32.420 being.

00:42:33.620 And what that meant was

00:42:35.040 that by 1939, summer of

00:42:36.680 1939, they had the

00:42:37.940 densest radio network of

00:42:39.560 anywhere in the entire

00:42:40.480 world.

00:42:41.280 They were one of the,

00:42:42.240 they were far off being

00:42:43.580 the most automotive, but

00:42:45.460 they had one of the

00:42:46.900 most dense, they had the

00:42:48.220 densest radio network

00:42:49.440 because they made it

00:42:50.800 very cheap.

00:42:52.640 Over 80% of households

00:42:54.020 had them, had a radio.

00:42:55.800 And even where you

00:42:56.880 couldn't have it, they

00:42:57.820 would put them up in

00:42:58.700 stairwells and apartment

00:42:59.820 blocks and squares and

00:43:01.440 bars and all the rest of

00:43:02.340 it.

00:43:02.680 And they would just

00:43:03.500 churn out the same old

00:43:04.580 stuff over and over and

00:43:05.920 over and over again.

00:43:07.140 So this would be, this

00:43:08.440 wouldn't just be, you

00:43:09.620 know, Hitlerian speeches.

00:43:11.120 This would be light

00:43:13.200 music, Wagner, comedy

00:43:15.800 shows, thoughtful

00:43:17.840 pieces, all sorts of

00:43:19.000 stuff.

00:43:19.360 But the subliminal message

00:43:20.600 was always saying, you

00:43:21.740 know, Jesus and

00:43:22.220 Podolsviks are bad, we're

00:43:23.360 military really strong,

00:43:24.360 we're the best, Germans and

00:43:25.460 Marians should have the

00:43:26.120 right to kind of sort of

00:43:27.180 rule the world, we're the

00:43:28.420 top dogs, we're the

00:43:29.200 daddies, we should be on

00:43:30.640 top, everyone else is

00:43:31.600 bad.

00:43:32.480 And this was just fed, this

00:43:34.080 sort of diet to the

00:43:34.960 German people.

00:43:35.560 Who swallowed it?

00:43:36.600 You know, in the same

00:43:37.460 way you could argue that

00:43:38.380 sort of MAGA supporters

00:43:39.480 kind of listen to Trump

00:43:41.060 over and over again

00:43:42.180 because they're just

00:43:42.760 spouting the same old

00:43:43.840 thing.

00:43:44.120 You know, we know that a

00:43:46.260 lot of what they're saying

00:43:46.900 is just complete lies.

00:43:48.740 But if it's said often

00:43:50.760 enough, people start to

00:43:51.700 believe it.

00:43:53.020 And this is the case with

00:43:54.300 Nazi Germany.

00:43:55.460 But the advent of these

00:43:57.800 mass-produced, cheaper

00:43:59.700 radios has a profound

00:44:01.860 effect on the military

00:44:02.620 too.

00:44:03.080 Because suddenly they're

00:44:03.780 thinking, ah, here's a

00:44:05.820 solution.

00:44:06.600 Because one of the

00:44:07.080 problems was when you

00:44:08.360 counter-attracted the

00:44:08.920 First World War was you

00:44:09.540 couldn't reinforce.

00:44:10.640 You probe away, you

00:44:11.820 suddenly have this

00:44:12.460 breakthrough, but you

00:44:13.660 couldn't reinforce the

00:44:14.400 breakthrough because you

00:44:14.960 couldn't get your forces

00:44:16.700 to that breakthrough point

00:44:18.360 quick enough because you

00:44:20.480 couldn't communicate well

00:44:21.380 enough.

00:44:21.640 suddenly you can.

00:44:23.720 So what emerges out of

00:44:25.340 that is a new concept

00:44:26.220 which is the Panzer

00:44:27.300 Division.

00:44:28.120 Now, Panzer is a general

00:44:28.900 word for tank.

00:44:29.920 It doesn't mean the

00:44:30.560 Panzer Division is

00:44:31.280 stuffed full of tanks.

00:44:32.240 What it means is it's a

00:44:33.580 fully functioning,

00:44:34.660 combined arms, mechanized

00:44:36.840 unit in which you would

00:44:38.260 have reconnaissance troops

00:44:39.980 on, you know, BMW,

00:44:43.260 motorbikes for sidecars.

00:44:44.520 You'd have armored cars.

00:44:47.480 You'd have half-tracks for

00:44:48.520 your troops, your

00:44:49.320 infantry.

00:44:50.080 You'd have motorized

00:44:51.880 anti-aircraft artillery.

00:44:53.880 You'd have motorized

00:44:54.780 anti-tank artillery.

00:44:56.320 You'd have motorized

00:44:57.100 field artillery.

00:44:58.280 And, of course, you'd

00:44:59.020 have tanks as well.

00:45:00.120 And these would all be

00:45:01.140 able to communicate with

00:45:01.960 one another.

00:45:03.000 What the French don't

00:45:04.480 have is this system.

00:45:07.100 So the unique thing

00:45:08.520 about Blitzkrieg and

00:45:10.340 where it differs from

00:45:11.420 earlier German approaches

00:45:13.340 to warfare is, one,

00:45:16.480 they now have the

00:45:17.200 Luftwaffe, which has

00:45:18.580 been created organically

00:45:20.560 to directly support

00:45:22.200 ground operations, what

00:45:23.320 we would call a tactical

00:45:24.340 air force or close air

00:45:25.820 support.

00:45:26.360 It's not a strategic

00:45:27.320 air force, which is an

00:45:28.440 independent operating

00:45:29.860 bomber force.

00:45:31.280 It is a close air

00:45:33.200 support.

00:45:34.220 And they have that and

00:45:36.500 they have radios.

00:45:37.480 And those two

00:45:39.500 developments are the

00:45:41.220 things that gives them

00:45:42.000 their edge over their

00:45:43.580 enemies in 1939,

00:45:45.100 1940.

00:45:45.600 And it's honed

00:45:46.720 substantially after the

00:45:47.780 battle for Poland.

00:45:50.320 The French, on the

00:45:51.100 other hand, have

00:45:52.420 overwhelming numbers of

00:45:53.180 guns and artillery pieces

00:45:54.460 and tanks and all the

00:45:55.500 rest of it, but they

00:45:55.920 don't have a means of

00:45:56.860 communication.

00:45:57.840 So Maurice Gamelin, who

00:45:59.960 is the commander-in-chief

00:46:02.480 of French armed forces,

00:46:03.560 for example, his

00:46:04.320 headquarters at the

00:46:04.880 Chateau de Mancène on

00:46:05.660 the edge of Paris, he

00:46:06.980 doesn't have a single

00:46:07.600 radio in the Chateau de

00:46:09.000 Mancène, his

00:46:09.520 headquarters.

00:46:11.140 And the French

00:46:11.740 structure is very top-heavy

00:46:13.380 to support this very

00:46:14.940 slow, defensive-based

00:46:17.600 military system.

00:46:19.040 The problem with being

00:46:19.620 top-heavy is it means

00:46:20.860 you've got overall

00:46:22.800 armed forces command

00:46:24.360 at the Chateau de Mancène,

00:46:25.660 then you've got army

00:46:26.780 group headquarters, which

00:46:28.480 is groups of armies, so

00:46:29.840 you have a command system

00:46:30.880 to command multiple

00:46:31.700 armies.

00:46:32.500 Then you have army

00:46:33.360 command, then underneath

00:46:34.880 that you have corps, then

00:46:36.540 you have divisions, which

00:46:37.700 is about 14,000 men, and

00:46:39.200 divisions are the unit by

00:46:40.280 which we judge the scale

00:46:41.460 and size of forces in

00:46:43.180 the Second World War.

00:46:44.660 Underneath that, you

00:46:45.740 then have regiments, and

00:46:47.940 under that you then have

00:46:48.760 battalions.

00:46:49.300 And every step of the

00:46:50.400 way, you haven't got a

00:46:52.460 sufficient way of

00:46:53.220 communicating.

00:46:54.460 So what happens is you

00:46:55.760 would pick up the

00:46:56.520 telephone, and that's

00:46:57.780 fine, so long as

00:46:58.660 Stukas haven't bombed the

00:46:59.840 telephone lines or cut

00:47:01.560 the telephone lines, and

00:47:02.640 it's fine to send out

00:47:03.900 dispatch riders as long

00:47:05.000 as the roads aren't

00:47:05.720 clogged with refugees trying

00:47:06.840 to get from A to B in

00:47:07.820 panic.

00:47:08.100 So what happens is the

00:47:11.540 army group commander

00:47:12.560 wants to make a decision

00:47:13.700 and pass on his orders to

00:47:15.840 the army, and so on down

00:47:17.480 the chain.

00:47:18.420 So he gets on his

00:47:19.400 telephone, the lines

00:47:20.200 cut, he can't get

00:47:21.020 through, so he sends out

00:47:21.740 a dispatch rider.

00:47:22.440 The dispatch rider can't

00:47:23.220 get through, gets stuck.

00:47:25.040 So that dispatch rider's

00:47:26.420 being sent out on his

00:47:27.000 motorbike at six o'clock

00:47:27.920 in the morning, he's still

00:47:28.580 not there by one o'clock

00:47:29.500 in the afternoon.

00:47:30.520 So then he sends out

00:47:31.240 another one.

00:47:31.740 By the time he gets back

00:47:32.540 at nine o'clock that

00:47:33.200 night, you've had a whole

00:47:34.080 day of events, and the

00:47:35.460 original orders have now

00:47:36.420 become redundant.

00:47:37.120 So what happens in 1940

00:47:39.380 is that Germans, because

00:47:40.880 they're able to operate

00:47:41.800 faster and quicker and

00:47:42.840 respond to situations

00:47:43.880 quicker, they have much

00:47:45.620 greater tactical

00:47:46.380 flexibility and

00:47:47.180 operational flexibility

00:47:48.060 than the French.

00:47:49.600 So the French just

00:47:50.380 stuck their rabbits in

00:47:51.340 headlights.

00:47:51.820 They literally can't

00:47:52.980 coordinate.

00:47:53.480 So the Germans are able

00:47:54.320 to take out the vastly

00:47:55.960 superior French forces in

00:47:59.760 penny packets.

00:48:00.940 They're able to take them

00:48:01.700 out one by one.

00:48:03.060 There's a classic example

00:48:04.060 of this.

00:48:04.360 So on the 15th of May,

00:48:05.680 1940, they come up

00:48:07.120 against the combination

00:48:08.860 of the 7th Panzer

00:48:10.000 Division and the 5th

00:48:10.880 Panzer Division, which

00:48:11.640 are two German units,

00:48:14.280 come up against the

00:48:14.980 French 1st Armoured

00:48:16.560 Division, mainly centered

00:48:18.420 around a village called

00:48:19.120 Dene.

00:48:19.620 It's just on the

00:48:20.060 other side.

00:48:20.460 They've already got

00:48:20.880 across the River

00:48:21.360 Meuse, the mighty

00:48:21.900 River Meuse.

00:48:22.660 So the first line of

00:48:23.520 French defense has

00:48:24.160 already crumbled.

00:48:24.700 and they come to this

00:48:27.680 area.

00:48:29.260 And overnight, the French

00:48:32.140 1st Armoured Division has

00:48:32.960 moved up and they're

00:48:36.520 fuelled by tankers.

00:48:38.020 And tankers come up and

00:48:38.680 they get hit by stukers.

00:48:39.880 So two of the tankers get

00:48:41.700 knocked out or whatever.

00:48:42.460 I can't remember how many

00:48:43.000 it is, but one of the

00:48:44.000 tankers get knocked out.

00:48:47.560 So they then have to send

00:48:49.760 up more fuel tankers.

00:48:52.540 And the following morning

00:48:53.520 they are still refuelling

00:48:55.600 because the tanker is

00:48:56.940 going to one tank, then

00:48:57.920 the next tank, then the

00:48:58.800 next tank.

00:48:59.500 Whereas the German system

00:49:00.580 is to have trucks of

00:49:01.940 jerry cans, these 20

00:49:03.420 litre fuel cans, which

00:49:04.520 are still used to this

00:49:05.340 day.

00:49:05.960 And they go up to one

00:49:06.980 tank and they go,

00:49:07.460 here's your lot, here's

00:49:08.580 your lot, here's your

00:49:09.580 lot.

00:49:09.980 And so they can all fuel

00:49:11.000 at the same, refuel at

00:49:11.940 the same time.

00:49:12.560 Such a simple thing.

00:49:13.880 But of course the speed of

00:49:14.860 operation that gives you is

00:49:16.500 far greater than those of

00:49:17.540 the French.

00:49:18.720 So first of all, they are

00:49:19.800 good to go on the morning

00:49:20.980 of the 5th, 15th of May,

00:49:22.560 and fight this battle in a

00:49:23.720 way that the French just

00:49:24.660 aren't.

00:49:25.000 So the French are caught

00:49:25.780 napping.

00:49:26.280 They're knocked out while

00:49:27.760 they're still refuelling

00:49:28.700 before they even come into

00:49:30.080 battle.

00:49:30.920 Later on in the day, what

00:49:32.460 happens is the German

00:49:33.500 tanks, which are much,

00:49:34.580 much smaller than the

00:49:35.780 French ones, much more

00:49:36.960 underpowered, much less

00:49:37.940 armoured, they go forward.

00:49:39.520 They basically sort of

00:49:40.280 stick out their tongue and

00:49:41.080 waggle their hands at the

00:49:42.840 French tanks.

00:49:43.860 The French tanks cumbersome

00:49:45.680 and slowly kind of

00:49:46.600 sort of move off towards

00:49:48.380 them.

00:49:49.860 And the German tanks then

00:49:51.640 pull back, leading them

00:49:53.580 into a screen of anti-tank

00:49:55.480 guns, which are high-velocity

00:49:57.460 tanks, high-velocity

00:49:58.820 artillery pieces.

00:50:01.100 The French 1st Division is

00:50:02.520 just completely destroyed.

00:50:04.160 You know, so it's that

00:50:05.200 agility, that operational

00:50:07.840 flexibility that wins the

00:50:10.620 Germans their victory.

00:50:12.660 And all this is done by

00:50:14.280 very, very few divisions.

00:50:17.120 There are only 17 mobile

00:50:18.720 divisions out of the 135

00:50:19.940 that are used.

00:50:21.180 All the rest are operating

00:50:22.460 with horse and their own

00:50:23.840 two feet.

00:50:24.760 So this idea that it's a

00:50:25.960 sort of big mechanised

00:50:27.580 moloch is just not true.

00:50:29.860 The French have way more

00:50:31.300 mechanisation.

00:50:32.120 The British army, on the

00:50:32.820 vote, is only tiny, as is

00:50:34.120 the most, you know, it's

00:50:34.780 100% mechanised in 1940.

00:50:36.820 The only army in the world

00:50:37.820 to be so.

00:50:39.120 They get undone because,

00:50:40.740 in the case of the

00:50:41.220 British, the British

00:50:41.720 forward, they move forward

00:50:43.440 to the Dahl, as they're

00:50:44.340 supposed to do, on the

00:50:45.620 one side, on the right-hand

00:50:46.780 flank of the French, on

00:50:47.760 the left-hand flank of the

00:50:48.680 Belgians.

00:50:49.100 When the French and the

00:50:49.820 Belgians start to pull

00:50:50.540 back, the British have no

00:50:51.620 choice but to pull back as

00:50:52.700 well.

00:50:53.200 So it's not really their

00:50:54.100 fault.

00:50:54.460 They're just not big enough

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00:52:37.840 I want to skip forward

00:52:40.140 a little bit

00:52:40.740 given the time

00:52:42.220 we have left.

00:52:43.120 One of the things

00:52:43.700 I wanted to ask you is

00:52:45.140 one of the revisionist

00:52:46.640 narrative I alluded to

00:52:47.820 this

00:52:48.160 is the idea

00:52:50.640 that actually

00:52:51.620 Hitler didn't want

00:52:53.360 war with Britain.

00:52:54.980 Well he didn't want

00:52:55.840 war with Britain.

00:52:57.020 That's true.

00:52:57.680 What Hitler wants

00:52:58.900 is

00:52:59.840 you know

00:53:00.920 he's taking care of

00:53:02.200 his interests

00:53:02.740 in Eastern Europe.

00:53:03.320 Yeah I'm a reasonable guy.

00:53:04.540 I'm just deeply

00:53:05.380 anti-Semitic

00:53:06.300 and you know

00:53:07.120 I'm anti-Semitic

00:53:08.540 and I'm unbelievable racist

00:53:09.880 and you know

00:53:10.740 it's only fair

00:53:11.620 that we Germans

00:53:12.380 should go around

00:53:12.840 conquering the whole of Europe.

00:53:14.200 Yes well I guess

00:53:15.840 I mean the idea

00:53:16.780 that he doesn't want

00:53:17.380 war with Britain

00:53:17.800 then don't be aggressive.

00:53:19.380 I mean that's just absurd.

00:53:20.760 But I guess

00:53:21.960 the reason people

00:53:22.820 are making this argument

00:53:23.780 particularly in America

00:53:24.640 is following the war

00:53:26.160 in Vietnam

00:53:26.740 following the war

00:53:28.060 in Iraq

00:53:28.560 following the failed

00:53:29.660 invasion of Afghanistan

00:53:31.040 there is a massive

00:53:32.740 appetite for the sense

00:53:34.340 in which

00:53:34.840 all war is bad

00:53:36.600 and we should seek peace

00:53:38.400 by any means necessary

00:53:39.420 and

00:53:40.000 did America really need

00:53:41.680 to get involved

00:53:42.840 in World War II

00:53:43.700 because look

00:53:44.160 Britain

00:53:44.520 it was Churchill

00:53:45.700 the chief villain

00:53:46.560 of World War II

00:53:47.120 according to some people

00:53:48.040 who could have accepted

00:53:49.240 Hitler's peace overtures

00:53:50.480 and

00:53:52.080 then everything

00:53:52.800 would be fine.

00:53:53.980 Well anyone who says that

00:53:54.940 obviously thinks

00:53:55.680 it's absolutely fine

00:53:56.500 to murder the whole

00:53:57.240 of Germans

00:53:57.640 you know

00:53:58.320 Europe's Jews

00:53:58.920 I mean that's

00:53:59.500 that's just ridiculous

00:54:00.200 and

00:54:00.720 but the thing is

00:54:03.260 we didn't know

00:54:03.860 they were murdering Jews

00:54:04.680 at the time

00:54:05.160 on the scale

00:54:05.660 that we do now

00:54:06.540 we knew

00:54:06.900 it was deeply anti-semitic

00:54:08.100 and you know

00:54:09.020 wanted to kick them

00:54:09.600 all out of the country

00:54:10.200 but if you're an American

00:54:11.240 again I'm just putting you

00:54:12.300 their argument

00:54:12.860 it's not in my argument

00:54:13.880 at all

00:54:14.680 but the argument might be

00:54:16.340 well look

00:54:16.780 if World War II

00:54:18.320 had been avoided

00:54:19.140 then

00:54:19.960 tens of millions of people

00:54:21.520 would have been

00:54:22.160 not killed

00:54:22.860 well first of all

00:54:24.600 the Japanese

00:54:25.520 have already gone into China

00:54:26.540 so that

00:54:27.180 the killing sprees

00:54:28.360 had already begun

00:54:29.260 in China

00:54:29.760 so that was already happening

00:54:31.540 in terms of Hitler

00:54:33.760 I mean

00:54:34.680 Hitler had repeatedly

00:54:36.400 showed that

00:54:37.120 he was a pathological liar

00:54:40.000 that he couldn't be trusted

00:54:41.340 that he didn't stick

00:54:42.160 to any of the things

00:54:43.140 he said he was going

00:54:43.760 to stick to

00:54:44.320 when you can't trust people

00:54:45.960 it makes decision making

00:54:47.480 process very very difficult

00:54:48.620 and therefore

00:54:49.040 you've got to err

00:54:49.600 on the side of caution

00:54:50.500 so Hitler's saying

00:54:51.980 well you know

00:54:52.460 that's it after

00:54:53.060 Czech Republic

00:54:53.480 I'm never going to go

00:54:54.060 into anything else

00:54:54.660 and obviously

00:54:55.020 I'm going to observe Poland

00:54:55.940 and then he immediately

00:54:56.720 does a deal

00:54:57.240 with the Soviet Union

00:54:57.960 and then goes and invades Poland

00:54:59.060 so it may be that

00:55:01.580 he doesn't want war

00:55:02.280 with Britain

00:55:02.720 but he definitely

00:55:03.940 wants a simpatico Britain

00:55:05.140 and if Britain

00:55:06.380 isn't simpatico

00:55:07.480 and isn't politically

00:55:09.260 aligned to him

00:55:09.940 as his strength grows

00:55:11.600 he's going to threaten that

00:55:12.500 and that would threaten

00:55:14.300 the whole order

00:55:14.780 the whole reason why

00:55:17.080 Roosevelt starts to think

00:55:18.820 from as early as 1938

00:55:20.340 we need to crank

00:55:21.660 things up here

00:55:22.320 because

00:55:23.080 you know

00:55:25.000 this guy is a menace

00:55:26.000 is because

00:55:26.480 he can see

00:55:27.620 which way this is going

00:55:28.620 you know

00:55:28.880 he can see

00:55:29.600 that Hitler

00:55:30.740 is an extremely

00:55:32.020 dangerous man

00:55:32.980 that

00:55:33.220 a victorious

00:55:36.700 Nazi Germany

00:55:37.700 will be very unlikely

00:55:39.000 to be stopped

00:55:39.760 and that the Atlantic

00:55:41.440 is no longer

00:55:42.520 the great big barrier

00:55:44.120 that it once was

00:55:45.420 that you know

00:55:45.920 Roosevelt

00:55:46.560 as much as anyone

00:55:47.780 is very conscious

00:55:48.560 that the world is shrinking

00:55:49.360 in terms of size

00:55:51.320 and scope

00:55:51.880 and that

00:55:52.500 you know

00:55:54.020 in the mid-1930s

00:55:56.680 you've got the first

00:55:57.260 you know

00:55:57.740 Boeing Flying Fortress

00:55:58.960 for example

00:55:59.460 you know

00:55:59.860 which is all silver

00:56:01.280 and shiny

00:56:01.780 you've got the kind of

00:56:02.660 you've got the Douglas DC-3

00:56:04.160 coming into being

00:56:06.140 you know

00:56:06.500 these are

00:56:07.380 only a hop and a skip

00:56:10.420 in a way

00:56:10.860 from the age

00:56:11.520 of cloth bound

00:56:13.520 biplanes

00:56:14.220 and suddenly

00:56:15.260 we've got

00:56:15.720 all stressed metal

00:56:16.820 you know

00:56:17.600 magnesium and aluminium

00:56:19.000 aircraft

00:56:20.720 that can fly across

00:56:22.260 the Atlantic

00:56:22.860 that can fly across

00:56:23.820 continents

00:56:24.340 you know

00:56:24.940 it doesn't take

00:56:25.760 a huge leap

00:56:26.320 to realise

00:56:26.920 that

00:56:27.240 Europe

00:56:29.340 is not as far

00:56:30.540 as away

00:56:30.820 as it used to be

00:56:31.440 so you know

00:56:31.940 this is why

00:56:32.340 he's preparing for this

00:56:33.160 and also

00:56:34.320 you know

00:56:34.600 Roosevelt

00:56:34.940 quite rightly

00:56:35.820 appreciates

00:56:37.180 that economic

00:56:38.480 crisis

00:56:39.780 is problematic

00:56:41.720 leads to war

00:56:42.860 and has a

00:56:44.240 very pronounced

00:56:45.080 vision

00:56:45.660 which is one

00:56:46.800 of economic

00:56:47.840 unity

00:56:48.420 and prosperity

00:56:49.140 you know

00:56:49.620 if you have

00:56:49.880 economic prosperity

00:56:51.100 and the markets

00:56:51.780 are calm

00:56:52.300 you have political

00:56:53.000 calmness

00:56:53.620 and you're much

00:56:54.500 more likely

00:56:54.860 to continue

00:56:55.820 with peace

00:56:56.280 you know

00:56:56.640 he's absolutely

00:56:57.400 correct

00:56:57.980 I mean

00:56:58.400 you know

00:56:58.820 this is why

00:56:59.380 he instigates

00:57:00.060 in 1933

00:57:00.720 the good neighbour

00:57:01.400 policy

00:57:01.760 for example

00:57:02.260 good neighbour

00:57:03.020 policy

00:57:03.420 is

00:57:03.800 an overturn

00:57:06.700 of traditional

00:57:08.300 United States

00:57:09.100 approach

00:57:09.380 to its

00:57:09.620 Latin American

00:57:10.280 neighbours

00:57:11.700 such as

00:57:12.160 Mexico

00:57:12.600 or

00:57:13.700 indeed

00:57:14.100 Canada

00:57:14.440 and elsewhere

00:57:15.200 where

00:57:15.980 you are

00:57:16.720 aggressive

00:57:17.200 in terms

00:57:18.240 of trade

00:57:18.700 you are

00:57:18.960 aggressive

00:57:19.360 in terms

00:57:20.080 of

00:57:20.460 I mean

00:57:20.920 you know

00:57:21.080 they're

00:57:21.200 occupating

00:57:21.640 Haiti

00:57:22.060 they're

00:57:22.380 occupating

00:57:22.760 Cuba

00:57:23.500 they're

00:57:23.840 involved

00:57:24.160 in

00:57:24.700 Central

00:57:26.620 America

00:57:27.060 and Southern

00:57:27.540 America

00:57:28.000 in Mexico

00:57:29.880 and what

00:57:31.300 Roosevelt

00:57:31.680 says

00:57:31.940 is

00:57:32.040 actually

00:57:32.300 we're

00:57:32.620 going to

00:57:32.980 stop

00:57:33.160 all this

00:57:33.400 aggressive

00:57:33.740 stuff

00:57:34.120 we're

00:57:34.340 going to

00:57:34.520 stop

00:57:34.700 being

00:57:34.900 this

00:57:35.100 sort

00:57:35.240 of

00:57:35.340 bullying

00:57:35.740 dominating

00:57:36.480 militaristic

00:57:38.220 overbearing

00:57:38.920 partner

00:57:39.380 we're going

00:57:39.860 to actually

00:57:40.200 treat

00:57:40.480 the rest

00:57:40.820 of

00:57:41.020 Latin

00:57:41.600 America

00:57:41.960 fairly

00:57:42.460 and squarely

00:57:43.100 and okay

00:57:43.580 there might

00:57:43.880 be a trade

00:57:44.260 deficit

00:57:44.580 but overall

00:57:45.060 we'll get

00:57:45.420 richer

00:57:45.700 on this

00:57:46.120 and also

00:57:46.940 we'll be

00:57:47.260 more secure

00:57:47.860 there'll be

00:57:48.460 more peace

00:57:49.020 which will

00:57:49.340 be cheaper

00:57:49.820 for us

00:57:50.340 we'll become

00:57:51.260 more prosperous

00:57:51.760 and then

00:57:52.220 there'll be

00:57:52.680 less war

00:57:54.020 and because

00:57:55.140 there'll be

00:57:55.400 less war

00:57:55.800 there'll be

00:57:56.080 great prosperity

00:57:56.760 you know

00:57:57.140 that is

00:57:57.540 the lesson

00:57:57.980 from the

00:57:58.680 First World War

00:57:59.460 and he

00:58:00.460 heeds this

00:58:01.160 understands this

00:58:02.080 and you know

00:58:03.260 invokes a

00:58:04.480 good neighbour

00:58:04.780 policy in

00:58:05.220 1933

00:58:05.640 out of that

00:58:07.220 then comes

00:58:07.760 notions of

00:58:08.840 extending this

00:58:09.740 to a global

00:58:11.000 economic order

00:58:12.240 which first

00:58:12.900 gets mentioned

00:58:13.520 as the

00:58:14.680 four points

00:58:18.320 in January

00:58:19.120 1941

00:58:20.100 when he's

00:58:20.880 inaugurated

00:58:21.440 for the third

00:58:21.980 time in

00:58:22.360 March

00:58:22.580 1941

00:58:23.120 sorry

00:58:23.760 March

00:58:24.280 rather than

00:58:24.660 January

00:58:24.920 1941

00:58:25.560 and then

00:58:27.540 gets further

00:58:28.120 kind of

00:58:28.680 four freedoms

00:58:30.520 rather

00:58:30.760 and then

00:58:31.520 in August

00:58:32.060 1941

00:58:32.640 there's the

00:58:33.460 Atlantic

00:58:33.940 Charter

00:58:34.340 which he

00:58:34.620 signs with

00:58:34.920 Winston Churchill

00:58:35.440 in their

00:58:35.700 first proper

00:58:36.120 face-to-face

00:58:36.540 meeting

00:58:36.900 as political

00:58:37.920 leaders

00:58:38.380 where again

00:58:40.420 you know

00:58:40.660 this is this

00:58:41.180 notion that

00:58:41.820 you know

00:58:42.140 you should have

00:58:42.480 free trade

00:58:43.080 low tariffs

00:58:43.780 that you

00:58:44.820 should have

00:58:45.400 you know

00:58:48.520 no one

00:58:48.940 should

00:58:49.220 everyone

00:58:49.760 should be

00:58:50.140 free of

00:58:51.200 fear and

00:58:51.620 want

00:58:51.940 every person

00:58:53.800 on the planet

00:58:54.160 should have

00:58:54.380 the right

00:58:54.620 to self

00:58:54.920 determination

00:58:55.340 iDemocracy

00:58:56.280 that Britain

00:58:58.660 and America

00:58:59.140 will not

00:58:59.780 aggressively

00:59:00.400 attack any

00:59:01.080 other nation

00:59:01.640 ever

00:59:02.020 all these

00:59:03.800 things which

00:59:04.160 are you know

00:59:05.020 and partly

00:59:06.240 that is about

00:59:07.100 a sense of

00:59:07.840 sort of

00:59:08.100 Christian ideals

00:59:09.020 and a moral

00:59:09.980 compass

00:59:10.380 but it's

00:59:11.340 mainly

00:59:12.000 about prosperity

00:59:13.480 because the

00:59:14.260 more prosperous

00:59:15.020 you are

00:59:15.700 the more

00:59:16.540 political

00:59:18.500 unity

00:59:19.300 there is

00:59:19.960 and harmony

00:59:21.300 there is

00:59:21.800 the greater

00:59:22.180 prosperity

00:59:22.780 there is

00:59:23.240 the great

00:59:23.540 political

00:59:23.940 unity

00:59:24.360 and prosperity

00:59:25.620 economic

00:59:26.020 prosperity

00:59:26.460 is less

00:59:27.080 like you

00:59:27.480 are to

00:59:27.740 go to

00:59:27.940 war

00:59:28.160 and you

00:59:28.820 know

00:59:28.920 that is

00:59:29.340 absolutely

00:59:29.920 irrefutable

00:59:30.680 so all

00:59:32.100 of this

00:59:32.400 comes to

00:59:32.700 so what

00:59:33.900 by America

00:59:34.940 getting involved

00:59:35.560 in the war

00:59:36.020 what they're

00:59:36.560 doing is

00:59:37.160 putting a

00:59:38.960 stop

00:59:39.660 to

00:59:40.580 aggression

00:59:41.900 to aggressive

00:59:43.280 national

00:59:44.000 ultra

00:59:44.360 nationalistic

00:59:45.160 policies

00:59:45.700 and saying

00:59:48.060 no

00:59:48.420 let's

00:59:48.820 create a

00:59:49.520 new

00:59:49.740 global

00:59:50.340 order

00:59:51.000 which is

00:59:52.020 democratic

00:59:52.560 and prosperous

00:59:53.320 we do

00:59:53.860 not want

00:59:54.220 a world

00:59:54.620 that is

00:59:55.200 about

00:59:55.540 the

00:59:56.180 triumphal

00:59:56.960 strength

00:59:57.420 over

00:59:58.120 everything

00:59:58.500 else

00:59:58.820 but with

01:00:00.360 Churchill

01:00:00.700 specifically

01:00:01.380 this is

01:00:01.860 what I

01:00:02.080 want to

01:00:02.300 get into

01:00:02.760 is

01:00:03.180 the

01:00:03.700 argument

01:00:04.340 is

01:00:04.800 that he

01:00:05.540 could have

01:00:06.200 done that

01:00:06.740 peace

01:00:07.300 deal

01:00:08.500 with Hitler

01:00:09.260 you can't

01:00:09.820 do peace

01:00:10.140 deals with

01:00:10.440 someone like

01:00:10.740 Hitler

01:00:10.920 you can't

01:00:12.780 I mean

01:00:13.780 you know

01:00:14.260 they tried

01:00:14.640 in 1938

01:00:15.280 and it

01:00:15.980 got nowhere

01:00:16.460 you know

01:00:16.880 I can't

01:00:19.120 begin to say

01:00:20.120 how totally

01:00:20.980 absurd this

01:00:21.560 argument

01:00:21.840 I know

01:00:22.360 but I'd

01:00:23.200 like

01:00:23.400 I know

01:00:23.680 people say

01:00:24.200 it but

01:00:24.500 they say

01:00:25.060 it from a

01:00:25.400 point of

01:00:25.740 deep

01:00:26.280 ignorance

01:00:26.740 it seems

01:00:27.480 I certainly

01:00:28.640 agree with

01:00:29.080 you but

01:00:29.360 I would

01:00:29.940 want you

01:00:30.400 to also

01:00:30.760 perhaps

01:00:31.120 explain

01:00:31.500 I mean

01:00:31.760 one of

01:00:32.040 the things

01:00:32.300 that seems

01:00:32.640 obvious

01:00:32.920 to me

01:00:33.320 is

01:00:33.520 the idea

01:00:35.140 that Hitler

01:00:35.580 would have

01:00:35.980 simply

01:00:36.420 stopped

01:00:37.400 there

01:00:37.900 seems

01:00:38.420 quite

01:00:38.800 strange

01:00:39.240 to me

01:00:39.520 given

01:00:39.720 that he

01:00:39.980 had a

01:00:40.160 whole

01:00:40.320 pattern

01:00:40.640 of

01:00:40.820 behaviour

01:00:41.120 prior

01:00:41.520 to

01:00:41.680 that

01:00:41.820 but

01:00:41.980 also

01:00:42.400 wouldn't

01:00:43.600 the

01:00:43.880 British

01:00:44.160 interest

01:00:44.560 be

01:00:44.720 very

01:00:44.940 significantly

01:00:45.500 affected

01:00:45.980 if

01:00:46.240 Hitler

01:00:46.460 had

01:00:46.640 continued

01:00:47.120 to

01:00:47.400 dominate

01:00:47.700 not only

01:00:48.140 Europe

01:00:48.400 but the

01:00:48.700 rest

01:00:48.860 of the

01:00:49.020 world

01:00:49.080 because

01:00:49.300 he had

01:00:49.620 very

01:00:50.200 significant

01:00:50.700 interest

01:00:51.080 in the

01:00:51.340 Middle

01:00:51.500 East

01:00:51.740 which

01:00:52.940 would have

01:00:53.320 affected

01:00:53.640 British

01:00:54.060 interest

01:00:54.500 there

01:00:54.760 he only

01:00:55.420 went

01:00:55.640 into the

01:00:55.900 Middle

01:00:56.020 East

01:00:56.200 because

01:00:56.440 they

01:00:57.940 didn't

01:00:58.120 have

01:00:58.260 any

01:00:58.420 oil

01:00:58.640 the

01:00:59.740 whole

01:00:59.940 interest

01:01:00.260 in the

01:01:00.440 Middle

01:01:00.540 East

01:01:00.680 was

01:01:00.840 equally

01:01:01.620 absurd

01:01:02.060 Middle

01:01:03.440 East

01:01:04.540 oil

01:01:04.760 was not

01:01:05.160 important

01:01:05.640 in the

01:01:07.340 1940s

01:01:08.180 it became

01:01:08.580 important

01:01:09.120 later

01:01:09.500 decades

01:01:10.260 later

01:01:10.760 the

01:01:11.420 leading

01:01:11.660 oil

01:01:11.840 producer

01:01:12.100 in the

01:01:12.320 world

01:01:12.480 in the

01:01:12.740 1940s

01:01:13.600 was

01:01:13.820 the

01:01:14.160 United

01:01:14.340 States

01:01:14.720 and

01:01:14.860 the

01:01:14.960 second

01:01:15.260 biggest

01:01:16.620 producer

01:01:17.100 of

01:01:17.260 oil

01:01:17.400 was

01:01:17.580 Venezuela

01:01:17.980 and

01:01:19.020 then

01:01:20.420 you

01:01:20.720 have

01:01:20.900 the

01:01:21.060 oil

01:01:22.040 fields

01:01:22.280 of

01:01:22.440 Baku

01:01:22.760 and

01:01:22.860 Azerbaijan

01:01:23.220 which

01:01:24.200 is

01:01:24.360 third

01:01:24.600 Middle

01:01:24.840 East

01:01:25.020 doesn't

01:01:25.300 even

01:01:25.540 really

01:01:25.820 come

01:01:26.060 into

01:01:26.240 it

01:01:26.360 at

01:01:26.460 all

01:01:26.680 Middle

01:01:27.480 East

01:01:27.680 oil

01:01:28.040 is

01:01:28.400 merely

01:01:29.140 fueling

01:01:30.500 British

01:01:31.280 efforts

01:01:31.800 in the

01:01:32.180 Middle

01:01:32.360 East

01:01:32.640 because

01:01:33.300 obviously

01:01:33.620 it's

01:01:33.800 closer

01:01:34.140 you

01:01:34.600 haven't

01:01:35.360 got to

01:01:35.580 ship

01:01:35.740 it

01:01:35.840 around

01:01:36.220 so

01:01:37.920 when

01:01:38.120 Hitler

01:01:38.340 goes

01:01:39.140 into

01:01:39.480 the

01:01:40.600 Soviet

01:01:40.840 Union

01:01:41.240 originally

01:01:41.860 it's

01:01:42.200 in

01:01:42.540 June

01:01:42.740 1941

01:01:43.320 he

01:01:43.780 does

01:01:44.040 so

01:01:44.220 because

01:01:44.480 he's

01:01:44.780 failed

01:01:45.080 to

01:01:45.280 defeat

01:01:46.620 France

01:01:48.040 that's

01:01:48.260 a big

01:01:48.420 tick

01:01:48.720 and

01:01:49.720 the

01:01:50.000 low

01:01:50.160 countries

01:01:50.520 and

01:01:50.640 all

01:01:50.700 the

01:01:50.800 rest

01:01:50.960 of it

01:01:51.180 but

01:01:51.360 even

01:01:51.740 by

01:01:52.060 Christmas

01:01:52.440 1940

01:01:53.080 the

01:01:53.340 covers

01:01:53.560 are

01:01:53.720 bare

01:01:53.980 he

01:01:55.620 doesn't

01:01:55.940 have

01:01:56.120 enough

01:01:56.280 resources

01:01:56.560 he's

01:01:56.900 completely

01:01:57.500 bled

01:01:57.960 mighty

01:01:58.900 France

01:01:59.280 dry

01:01:59.740 like

01:02:00.800 kids

01:02:01.060 in a

01:02:01.260 sweet

01:02:01.440 shop

01:02:01.700 there's

01:02:01.900 nothing

01:02:02.160 left

01:02:02.520 so

01:02:03.060 then

01:02:03.480 you've

01:02:03.680 got

01:02:03.780 to

01:02:03.940 man

01:02:04.420 your

01:02:04.760 this

01:02:05.140 new

01:02:05.380 empire

01:02:05.740 that

01:02:05.940 you've

01:02:06.240 got

01:02:06.560 which

01:02:06.780 is

01:02:06.920 incredibly

01:02:07.280 expensive

01:02:07.700 to do

01:02:08.160 and

01:02:08.360 time

01:02:08.900 consuming

01:02:09.400 and

01:02:09.800 cost

01:02:10.100 man

01:02:10.280 because

01:02:10.540 the

01:02:10.680 bigger

01:02:10.860 geographical

01:02:11.520 area

01:02:12.280 the

01:02:12.680 more

01:02:12.860 men

01:02:13.080 you've

01:02:13.240 got

01:02:13.360 to

01:02:13.500 defend

01:02:13.880 it

01:02:14.080 and

01:02:14.180 the

01:02:14.260 more

01:02:14.460 defences

01:02:15.060 you've

01:02:15.320 got

01:02:15.440 to

01:02:15.580 build

01:02:15.820 so

01:02:16.040 it

01:02:16.500 just

01:02:16.660 goes

01:02:16.840 to

01:02:16.940 figure

01:02:18.060 so

01:02:18.600 he's

01:02:19.540 got a

01:02:19.720 problem

01:02:19.900 on his

01:02:20.160 hands

01:02:20.400 but his

01:02:22.160 big

01:02:22.320 problem

01:02:22.580 is

01:02:22.820 one of the

01:02:23.380 reasons

01:02:23.560 why

01:02:23.780 Germany

01:02:24.160 lost

01:02:24.600 the

01:02:24.720 first

01:02:24.880 world

01:02:25.000 war

01:02:25.140 was

01:02:25.220 because

01:02:25.360 they

01:02:25.480 ended

01:02:25.620 up

01:02:25.760 fighting

01:02:25.960 war

01:02:26.180 on

01:02:26.300 two

01:02:26.420 fronts

01:02:26.660 eastern

01:02:26.880 front

01:02:27.160 and

01:02:27.260 western

01:02:27.540 front

01:02:27.900 and

01:02:28.120 he

01:02:28.240 was

01:02:28.400 aware

01:02:28.640 of

01:02:28.780 this

01:02:29.000 he

01:02:29.980 was

01:02:30.040 he

01:02:30.080 been

01:02:30.860 an

01:02:31.540 infantryman

01:02:32.140 in

01:02:32.280 the

01:02:32.700 first

01:02:32.860 world

01:02:33.020 he was

01:02:33.240 keenly

01:02:33.600 aware

01:02:33.800 of it

01:02:34.480 and

01:02:35.480 he was

01:02:35.800 keenly

01:02:36.040 aware

01:02:36.240 of what

01:02:36.480 happened

01:02:36.780 in

01:02:37.020 1918

01:02:37.660 when

01:02:38.660 Germany

01:02:39.180 had to

01:02:40.040 throw

01:02:40.160 in the

01:02:40.340 towel

01:02:40.560 so

01:02:41.040 he's

01:02:42.440 got a

01:02:42.620 problem

01:02:42.820 on his

01:02:43.080 hand

01:02:43.200 because

01:02:43.460 Britain

01:02:44.080 hasn't

01:02:44.540 done

01:02:44.720 what

01:02:44.860 he's

01:02:45.020 expected

01:02:45.420 it

01:02:45.620 to

01:02:45.740 do

01:02:46.000 which

01:02:46.340 is

01:02:46.720 after

01:02:47.160 his

01:02:47.320 army

01:02:47.720 got

01:02:47.900 defeated

01:02:48.200 at

01:02:48.420 Dunkirk

01:02:48.880 and

01:02:49.040 scuttled

01:02:49.240 back

01:02:49.420 across

01:02:49.620 the

01:02:49.700 Atlantic

01:02:49.920 he was

01:02:50.220 expecting

01:02:50.480 him

01:02:50.640 to

01:02:50.740 sue

01:02:50.860 for

01:02:51.000 peace

01:02:51.240 and

01:02:51.360 that's

01:02:51.580 because

01:02:51.940 he's

01:02:52.740 a

01:02:52.820 continentalist

01:02:53.560 and

01:02:53.780 for

01:02:54.080 him

01:02:54.280 the

01:02:54.460 army

01:02:54.660 is

01:02:54.840 absolutely

01:02:55.160 everything

01:02:55.520 whereas

01:02:55.800 for

01:02:56.000 Britain

01:02:56.300 it's

01:02:57.100 an

01:02:57.540 ocean

01:02:57.960 going

01:02:58.280 empire

01:02:58.760 where

01:03:00.080 the

01:03:00.440 navy

01:03:00.680 is

01:03:00.860 the

01:03:00.960 most

01:03:01.120 important

01:03:01.400 thing

01:03:01.680 the

01:03:02.060 army

01:03:02.280 is

01:03:02.540 not

01:03:03.120 it's

01:03:03.340 probably

01:03:03.580 the

01:03:04.420 third

01:03:04.780 of

01:03:04.920 the

01:03:05.020 three

01:03:05.300 services

01:03:05.980 let me

01:03:06.700 interrupt

01:03:07.060 you there

01:03:07.360 very briefly

01:03:07.980 because

01:03:08.200 here's

01:03:08.420 what

01:03:08.540 I'm

01:03:08.680 really

01:03:08.880 trying

01:03:09.100 to

01:03:09.220 get

01:03:09.420 you

01:03:09.580 to

01:03:09.760 explain

01:03:10.220 forget

01:03:11.660 look

01:03:12.200 someone

01:03:13.140 who

01:03:13.300 have

01:03:13.420 Jewish

01:03:13.680 ancestry

01:03:14.080 who

01:03:14.280 lost

01:03:14.580 family

01:03:14.940 in

01:03:15.060 the

01:03:15.120 Holocaust

01:03:15.360 this

01:03:15.720 is

01:03:15.840 a

01:03:15.980 strange

01:03:16.240 argument

01:03:16.540 for

01:03:16.740 me

01:03:16.840 to

01:03:16.960 be

01:03:17.060 making

01:03:17.320 but

01:03:17.520 nonetheless

01:03:17.820 I'm

01:03:18.180 trying

01:03:18.340 to

01:03:18.440 put

01:03:18.560 the

01:03:18.660 argument

01:03:18.920 to

01:03:19.140 it

01:03:19.320 forget

01:03:20.560 the

01:03:20.800 moral

01:03:21.180 case

01:03:21.680 and

01:03:22.260 just

01:03:22.420 look

01:03:22.580 at

01:03:22.680 the

01:03:22.840 practical

01:03:23.400 case

01:03:23.780 what

01:03:24.200 is

01:03:24.360 the

01:03:24.520 practical

01:03:25.220 rationale

01:03:25.820 for

01:03:26.280 Britain

01:03:26.700 continuing

01:03:27.800 to

01:03:28.400 fight

01:03:29.060 alone

01:03:29.620 after

01:03:30.500 1940

01:03:31.240 well

01:03:32.140 first

01:03:32.580 of all

01:03:32.840 Britain

01:03:33.040 doesn't

01:03:33.420 fight

01:03:33.600 alone

01:03:33.840 because

01:03:34.080 it's

01:03:34.220 got

01:03:34.360 an

01:03:34.500 empire

01:03:34.800 and

01:03:34.960 dominions

01:03:35.480 the

01:03:36.620 British

01:03:36.980 empire

01:03:37.300 well

01:03:38.580 because

01:03:39.220 the

01:03:40.540 alternative

01:03:41.180 is

01:03:42.080 the

01:03:43.840 new

01:03:44.120 dark

01:03:44.500 age

01:03:44.820 made

01:03:45.100 more

01:03:45.400 sinister

01:03:45.840 and

01:03:46.140 protracted

01:03:46.700 by

01:03:46.860 the

01:03:46.980 versions

01:03:47.340 of

01:03:47.540 modern

01:03:47.780 science

01:03:48.220 as

01:03:48.500 Churchill

01:03:49.140 pointed

01:03:49.460 out

01:03:49.720 on

01:03:49.880 the

01:03:50.020 18th

01:03:50.380 of

01:03:50.500 June

01:03:50.740 1940

01:03:51.340 I

01:03:52.120 mean

01:03:52.280 the

01:03:54.720 alternative

01:03:55.200 is

01:03:55.960 you know

01:03:56.540 and that

01:03:56.820 was

01:03:56.960 incredibly

01:03:57.240 pressing

01:03:57.600 because

01:03:57.880 of course

01:03:58.180 at that

01:03:58.480 point

01:03:58.740 you know

01:03:59.000 Zeitung

01:03:59.400 B

01:03:59.560 hadn't

01:03:59.920 been

01:04:00.080 used

01:04:00.300 to

01:04:00.440 gas

01:04:00.660 people

01:04:00.960 but

01:04:01.180 was

01:04:01.760 going

01:04:02.040 to

01:04:02.120 be

01:04:02.220 used

01:04:02.440 to

01:04:02.540 gas

01:04:02.680 people

01:04:02.900 so

01:04:03.060 you know

01:04:03.420 Churchill

01:04:03.940 was

01:04:04.100 absolutely

01:04:04.600 spot

01:04:05.060 on

01:04:05.280 anyone

01:04:07.320 who

01:04:08.080 doubts

01:04:08.420 the

01:04:08.560 ambition

01:04:08.880 of

01:04:09.100 Hitler

01:04:09.340 you

01:04:09.640 only

01:04:10.000 have

01:04:10.320 to

01:04:10.480 look

01:04:10.720 at

01:04:10.860 what

01:04:11.080 did

01:04:11.560 happen

01:04:12.080 Auschwitz

01:04:14.780 the

01:04:15.020 death

01:04:15.300 camps

01:04:15.840 the

01:04:16.820 concentration

01:04:17.260 camps

01:04:17.820 the

01:04:17.980 three

01:04:18.180 million

01:04:18.400 people

01:04:18.680 shot

01:04:18.940 and

01:04:19.080 chucked

01:04:19.380 into

01:04:19.520 pits

01:04:19.680 very

01:04:19.900 strange

01:04:20.200 argument

01:04:20.500 for me

01:04:20.920 to

01:04:21.080 make

01:04:21.260 but

01:04:21.420 let's

01:04:21.600 be

01:04:21.740 honest

01:04:22.040 Britain

01:04:22.540 didn't

01:04:22.900 fight

01:04:23.160 World

01:04:23.440 War

01:04:23.700 II

01:04:23.880 because

01:04:24.160 of

01:04:24.360 Jews

01:04:24.680 right

01:04:25.060 it

01:04:25.920 doesn't

01:04:27.680 but

01:04:27.840 it

01:04:28.020 fights

01:04:28.340 World

01:04:28.560 War

01:04:28.680 II

01:04:28.880 because

01:04:29.200 of

01:04:29.420 the

01:04:29.540 threat

01:04:30.240 of

01:04:30.620 what

01:04:30.960 this

01:04:31.280 monstrous

01:04:31.840 regime

01:04:32.360 might

01:04:32.860 enact

01:04:34.280 but

01:04:34.840 not

01:04:35.080 to

01:04:35.280 Jews

01:04:35.560 but

01:04:35.800 rather

01:04:36.140 it's

01:04:36.600 a

01:04:36.740 threat

01:04:37.120 Britain

01:04:37.600 never

01:04:37.900 wants

01:04:38.280 there

01:04:38.400 to

01:04:38.520 be

01:04:38.660 a

01:04:38.800 super

01:04:39.040 dominant

01:04:39.400 power

01:04:39.800 on

01:04:39.960 the

01:04:40.060 continent

01:04:40.400 it

01:04:40.620 doesn't

01:04:40.840 want

01:04:40.980 a

01:04:41.080 superpower

01:04:41.400 it

01:04:41.800 certainly

01:04:42.300 doesn't

01:04:42.660 want

01:04:42.820 to

01:04:42.900 and

01:04:43.020 that

01:04:43.160 is

01:04:43.520 an

01:04:43.700 age

01:04:44.040 old

01:04:44.380 geopolitical

01:04:46.320 so

01:04:46.680 from a

01:04:47.100 geopolitical

01:04:47.860 perspective

01:04:48.380 what is

01:04:48.840 the rationale

01:04:49.260 it's

01:04:49.720 more than

01:04:50.000 that

01:04:50.180 it's

01:04:50.520 not

01:04:50.700 just

01:04:51.280 geopolitical

01:04:51.940 it

01:04:52.180 is

01:04:52.680 absolutely

01:04:54.360 profound

01:04:55.300 that

01:04:55.940 Nazi

01:04:56.400 Germany

01:04:57.080 presents

01:04:58.260 a

01:04:59.680 dark

01:05:00.360 force

01:05:00.980 of

01:05:02.000 evil

01:05:02.780 that has

01:05:03.320 to be

01:05:03.660 stopped

01:05:04.000 because

01:05:04.320 the

01:05:04.540 consequences

01:05:05.100 are

01:05:06.140 a

01:05:07.780 shroud

01:05:08.460 of

01:05:08.960 repression

01:05:10.080 of

01:05:10.460 anti

01:05:10.860 liberty

01:05:11.260 of

01:05:11.680 autocracy

01:05:12.680 of

01:05:13.980 cruel

01:05:14.960 power

01:05:15.580 that

01:05:16.940 will

01:05:17.100 dominate

01:05:17.440 the

01:05:17.600 world

01:05:17.780 you know

01:05:20.080 I don't

01:05:20.300 think there's

01:05:20.480 any question

01:05:20.980 about that

01:05:21.380 at all

01:05:21.640 I mean

01:05:21.900 no one

01:05:22.920 is saying

01:05:23.700 we've got

01:05:24.300 to go to

01:05:24.560 war

01:05:24.720 against

01:05:24.920 we've

01:05:25.320 got to

01:05:25.480 stop

01:05:25.640 Hitler

01:05:25.820 because

01:05:26.120 otherwise

01:05:26.440 he's

01:05:26.600 going to

01:05:26.740 be

01:05:26.820 the

01:05:26.960 global

01:05:27.360 dominant

01:05:27.720 you know

01:05:28.220 there'll

01:05:28.980 be a

01:05:29.220 single

01:05:29.440 dominant

01:05:29.760 power

01:05:30.080 in

01:05:30.240 Europe

01:05:30.520 they're

01:05:30.940 not

01:05:31.060 saying

01:05:31.280 that

01:05:31.420 they're

01:05:31.600 saying

01:05:31.860 that

01:05:32.400 is

01:05:32.620 part

01:05:33.000 of

01:05:33.140 it

01:05:33.340 but

01:05:34.060 the

01:05:34.160 main

01:05:34.340 reason

01:05:34.780 is

01:05:35.020 because

01:05:35.300 of

01:05:35.620 what

01:05:35.840 Nazism

01:05:37.040 represents

01:05:37.740 and

01:05:38.920 anti

01:05:39.180 Semitism

01:05:39.780 is a

01:05:40.340 part

01:05:40.620 of

01:05:40.740 that

01:05:40.980 we're

01:05:41.320 not

01:05:41.440 going

01:05:41.620 to

01:05:41.780 war

01:05:42.260 to

01:05:42.860 save

01:05:43.220 Europe's

01:05:44.240 Jews

01:05:44.620 but

01:05:44.960 we are

01:05:47.800 going

01:05:48.040 to

01:05:48.260 war

01:05:48.680 to

01:05:49.300 prevent

01:05:49.680 the

01:05:49.920 spread

01:05:50.180 of

01:05:50.340 Nazi

01:05:50.620 ideology

01:05:51.120 so

01:05:51.500 we

01:05:52.040 are

01:05:52.400 in

01:05:52.500 a

01:05:52.580 way

01:05:52.880 people

01:05:56.440 who

01:05:56.620 say

01:05:56.800 if

01:05:57.720 only

01:05:58.040 Germany

01:05:59.520 had

01:05:59.680 gone

01:05:59.880 in

01:06:00.060 and

01:06:00.180 didn't

01:06:00.340 have

01:06:00.520 its

01:06:00.640 ideology

01:06:01.080 and

01:06:01.240 gone

01:06:01.420 into

01:06:01.560 the

01:06:01.660 Soviet

01:06:01.920 Union

01:06:02.300 you

01:06:02.540 could

01:06:02.680 have

01:06:02.760 actually

01:06:02.980 used

01:06:03.300 all

01:06:03.660 the

01:06:03.800 Ukrainians

01:06:04.300 and Jews

01:06:05.200 to

01:06:05.380 their

01:06:05.600 benefit

01:06:06.120 their

01:06:06.660 life

01:06:07.140 would

01:06:07.280 have

01:06:07.360 been

01:06:07.480 easier

01:06:07.840 but

01:06:08.060 that's

01:06:08.340 kind of

01:06:08.580 missed

01:06:08.720 the point

01:06:09.000 they are

01:06:10.020 anti-Semitic

01:06:11.040 they do

01:06:11.680 have this

01:06:12.060 ideology

01:06:12.420 that's

01:06:12.740 absolutely

01:06:13.300 part and

01:06:14.340 parcel

01:06:14.740 of how

01:06:15.580 they

01:06:15.740 operate

01:06:16.140 it's

01:06:16.420 absolutely

01:06:17.040 the key

01:06:18.160 to

01:06:18.500 understanding

01:06:19.680 Hitler's

01:06:20.440 ambition

01:06:20.920 is

01:06:21.740 his

01:06:22.080 ambition

01:06:22.520 to

01:06:22.740 fuel

01:06:23.340 and

01:06:23.660 fulfil

01:06:24.180 this

01:06:25.380 ideology

01:06:27.100 so

01:06:27.820 you

01:06:28.100 can't

01:06:28.740 separate

01:06:29.100 them

01:06:29.320 nor

01:06:30.140 can

01:06:30.360 one

01:06:30.560 say

01:06:30.940 just

01:06:31.740 part

01:06:32.000 for a

01:06:32.280 minute

01:06:32.420 his

01:06:33.120 anti-Semitism

01:06:34.060 and just

01:06:34.620 look at

01:06:34.880 it

01:06:35.000 practically

01:06:35.380 you can't

01:06:36.380 because

01:06:36.620 it's

01:06:37.160 absolutely

01:06:37.700 part of

01:06:38.220 the whole

01:06:38.460 thing

01:06:38.560 one of

01:06:38.700 the things

01:06:38.980 that always

01:06:39.460 underscore

01:06:40.520 that for

01:06:41.060 me

01:06:41.260 is even

01:06:41.660 towards

01:06:42.000 the end

01:06:42.400 of the

01:06:42.640 war

01:06:42.760 which is

01:06:43.060 where we're

01:06:43.360 now heading

01:06:43.780 in our

01:06:44.080 conversation

01:06:44.600 the amount

01:06:45.740 of resource

01:06:46.600 and

01:06:47.400 soldiers

01:06:50.160 and everything

01:06:50.840 that they're

01:06:51.280 using to try

01:06:52.000 to complete

01:06:52.620 the project

01:06:53.160 of the

01:06:53.720 final solution

01:06:54.420 while their

01:06:55.160 armies are

01:06:55.580 being wrecked

01:06:56.080 on the

01:06:56.300 battlefield

01:06:56.800 that just

01:06:57.640 shows you

01:06:58.000 how ideologically

01:06:58.780 possessed

01:06:59.160 it absolutely

01:07:00.360 does

01:07:00.880 and

01:07:01.040 they know

01:07:03.860 they're losing

01:07:04.340 the war

01:07:04.800 and so

01:07:05.420 there is

01:07:05.760 this hurry

01:07:06.540 to get

01:07:06.960 the one bit

01:07:07.880 they haven't

01:07:08.220 done is

01:07:08.500 they haven't

01:07:08.680 got Hungary's

01:07:09.400 Jews

01:07:09.660 so

01:07:10.380 how can we

01:07:11.820 speed this

01:07:12.200 up

01:07:12.360 here's an

01:07:12.940 idea

01:07:13.220 let's build

01:07:13.640 a railway

01:07:14.580 so that the

01:07:15.860 Jews when

01:07:16.240 they arrive

01:07:16.660 from Hungary

01:07:17.120 don't have to

01:07:17.700 walk across

01:07:18.380 a mile

01:07:18.820 of open

01:07:19.760 land

01:07:20.600 they can

01:07:21.260 just go

01:07:21.580 literally

01:07:22.140 straight into

01:07:23.020 the gas

01:07:23.880 chambers

01:07:24.280 let's build

01:07:24.980 an extension

01:07:25.740 to the

01:07:26.040 railway line

01:07:26.440 that goes

01:07:26.740 through the

01:07:27.140 archway

01:07:27.540 into

01:07:27.740 Birkenau

01:07:28.660 the death

01:07:29.000 camp

01:07:29.280 and that'll

01:07:30.160 speed up

01:07:30.560 the whole

01:07:30.800 thing

01:07:31.000 it's so

01:07:32.840 absurd

01:07:33.340 it's not

01:07:33.760 true

01:07:34.020 it is

01:07:35.220 ridiculous

01:07:35.740 even in

01:07:36.180 the final

01:07:36.640 weeks

01:07:37.160 of the

01:07:37.420 war

01:07:37.620 they're

01:07:38.100 still

01:07:38.340 transferring

01:07:39.140 prisoners

01:07:39.760 from

01:07:40.060 concentration

01:07:40.700 camp

01:07:40.980 so that

01:07:42.540 they can

01:07:42.820 still be

01:07:43.360 used as

01:07:43.840 slave labour

01:07:44.380 even though

01:07:44.780 they're

01:07:44.940 emaciated

01:07:45.700 and broken

01:07:46.560 and suffering

01:07:47.680 from typhus

01:07:48.380 and all the

01:07:49.080 rest of it

01:07:49.440 it is impossible

01:07:52.440 to understand

01:07:53.360 the absurdities

01:07:54.500 of the

01:07:54.720 Nazi state

01:07:55.200 and what

01:07:55.460 one also

01:07:55.860 has to

01:07:56.160 appreciate

01:07:56.440 is the

01:07:57.380 foundations

01:07:57.940 of the

01:07:58.220 Nazi state

01:07:58.700 are very

01:07:59.440 fragile

01:08:00.100 this was a

01:08:01.200 country that

01:08:01.920 was broken

01:08:02.320 in 1919

01:08:03.080 that was

01:08:04.420 broken again

01:08:06.260 in the 1930s

01:08:07.600 following the

01:08:08.040 Wall Street

01:08:08.320 crash

01:08:08.740 and it

01:08:10.740 has built

01:08:11.400 this facade

01:08:13.400 this show

01:08:14.440 of red

01:08:15.800 and black

01:08:17.160 swastikas

01:08:17.940 on a white

01:08:18.580 and it's all

01:08:19.160 very showy

01:08:20.140 and it all

01:08:21.480 looks very

01:08:22.520 impressive

01:08:23.980 but actually

01:08:24.660 it's kind

01:08:25.300 of wafer

01:08:25.680 thin

01:08:26.040 and the

01:08:27.860 foundations

01:08:28.320 of the

01:08:28.720 state

01:08:28.980 and the

01:08:29.260 economics

01:08:29.840 of the

01:08:30.140 state

01:08:30.340 are rotten

01:08:31.300 to the

01:08:31.700 core

01:08:31.960 and of

01:08:32.480 course

01:08:32.660 the

01:08:32.980 management

01:08:33.420 of it

01:08:33.880 is rotten

01:08:34.740 to the

01:08:34.980 core

01:08:35.080 it's deeply

01:08:35.980 corrupt

01:08:36.520 it's evil

01:08:38.380 in its

01:08:38.780 intention

01:08:39.220 and it's

01:08:40.360 absolutely

01:08:40.640 right

01:08:41.260 that the

01:08:42.520 Western

01:08:42.820 democracies

01:08:43.500 stand up

01:08:44.060 against this

01:08:44.540 I mean

01:08:44.780 this is

01:08:45.460 one of the

01:08:46.480 things I

01:08:46.740 think is

01:08:47.040 the real

01:08:47.520 lesson from

01:08:48.120 the Second

01:08:48.380 World War

01:08:48.780 is what

01:08:49.600 this goes

01:08:50.740 back to

01:08:50.960 your original

01:08:51.500 point about

01:08:52.220 democracies

01:08:54.380 and autocracies

01:08:55.000 is what

01:08:56.260 the Second

01:08:56.500 World War

01:08:56.760 shows is

01:08:57.200 that when

01:08:57.840 democracies

01:08:58.600 pull together

01:08:59.440 again you

01:09:01.620 know for a

01:09:02.060 common cause

01:09:02.940 they're unstoppable

01:09:04.340 but what that

01:09:06.440 requires though

01:09:07.220 is it's a much

01:09:07.960 more complicated

01:09:08.660 process of

01:09:09.460 political will

01:09:10.140 but once you

01:09:10.600 get that

01:09:11.240 political will

01:09:11.900 you can do

01:09:12.760 anything

01:09:13.100 you know so

01:09:13.980 this is the

01:09:14.620 lesson for now

01:09:15.740 as as the

01:09:17.020 enemies to the

01:09:17.780 West are kind

01:09:18.340 of sharpening

01:09:18.800 their sabres

01:09:19.340 again and

01:09:19.800 where you know

01:09:20.360 we feel this

01:09:20.900 existential threat

01:09:22.140 from North

01:09:22.980 Korea from

01:09:23.540 Iran and

01:09:24.180 of course

01:09:24.480 from Putin's

01:09:25.380 Russia is

01:09:26.580 what is lacking

01:09:27.640 at the moment

01:09:28.280 it's starting to

01:09:29.620 kind of show

01:09:30.180 signs of

01:09:30.820 galvanizing but

01:09:31.640 what you really

01:09:32.540 need is

01:09:33.760 political will

01:09:34.480 once you've

01:09:35.100 got that

01:09:35.520 political will

01:09:36.180 we'll be

01:09:37.120 fine so

01:09:38.260 you know

01:09:38.640 all our

01:09:39.700 enemies in

01:09:40.460 the world

01:09:40.680 today can

01:09:41.240 be stopped

01:09:41.660 without any

01:09:42.140 question

01:09:42.460 whatsoever

01:09:42.980 you know

01:09:43.840 compare

01:09:44.340 Russia's got

01:09:45.300 100 million

01:09:45.800 150 million

01:09:46.700 people you

01:09:47.260 know

01:09:47.360 Europe's got

01:09:48.100 750 million

01:09:49.380 it's got

01:09:50.120 great minds

01:09:50.660 it's got

01:09:50.860 resources

01:09:51.280 it's got

01:09:51.520 access to

01:09:51.980 the world's

01:09:52.260 oceans

01:09:52.560 it's got

01:09:52.920 untold riches

01:09:53.660 blah blah blah

01:09:54.260 you know

01:09:54.860 there's absolutely

01:09:55.200 no reason why

01:09:56.180 we can't stop

01:09:57.340 all these people

01:09:57.880 in their tracks

01:09:58.380 what's stopping

01:09:59.020 us is different

01:10:00.160 political systems

01:10:00.940 and that's that's

01:10:01.800 the benefit and

01:10:02.460 curse of

01:10:03.500 democracy as you

01:10:04.160 rightly point out

01:10:04.780 so Britain

01:10:07.220 stands alone

01:10:08.420 France has fallen

01:10:10.240 most of mainland

01:10:11.080 Europe has fallen

01:10:11.940 the Channel Islands

01:10:13.200 they the Nazis

01:10:15.080 are there

01:10:15.580 I mean

01:10:16.620 not to put

01:10:17.940 too fine a

01:10:18.480 point on it

01:10:18.960 we're in the

01:10:19.680 shit

01:10:20.000 how did we

01:10:20.820 manage to get

01:10:21.380 out of this

01:10:21.800 situation

01:10:22.380 well we get

01:10:23.340 out of it

01:10:23.720 because Germany

01:10:24.340 is not as

01:10:24.740 good as they

01:10:25.280 seem at the

01:10:26.660 beginning of the

01:10:27.140 war with the

01:10:27.960 Blitzkrieg years

01:10:28.720 because it does

01:10:30.500 have this

01:10:30.820 shortage of

01:10:32.300 supplies and

01:10:33.160 access to

01:10:33.580 the world's

01:10:33.800 oceans and

01:10:34.560 because Britain

01:10:35.580 is an island

01:10:37.160 nation with

01:10:38.360 the world's

01:10:38.760 largest navy

01:10:39.280 and the world's

01:10:39.700 largest merchant

01:10:40.220 fleet and

01:10:40.820 access to

01:10:41.400 over 80%

01:10:42.500 of the world's

01:10:43.300 merchant shipping

01:10:44.140 and those are

01:10:44.720 incalculable

01:10:46.180 advantages

01:10:46.820 and also

01:10:48.440 in the summer

01:10:49.120 of 1940

01:10:49.760 it has the

01:10:50.560 world's first

01:10:51.040 fully coordinated

01:10:51.760 and only

01:10:52.600 air defence

01:10:53.360 system

01:10:53.760 so in the

01:10:54.880 past what's

01:10:55.440 happened is

01:10:55.760 the Luftwaffe

01:10:56.140 has been able

01:10:56.480 to choose

01:10:56.860 when it

01:10:57.100 comes over

01:10:57.420 and destroys

01:10:57.840 people's

01:10:58.420 airfields

01:10:58.880 and aircraft

01:10:59.900 on the

01:11:00.240 ground

01:11:00.560 because

01:11:01.280 its enemies

01:11:02.680 don't know

01:11:03.120 when they're

01:11:03.480 coming

01:11:03.780 but now we

01:11:04.700 do

01:11:04.920 Britain

01:11:05.180 does know

01:11:05.580 when it's

01:11:05.840 coming

01:11:06.060 it can see

01:11:06.580 and it can

01:11:07.260 prepare for it

01:11:07.860 so A it

01:11:08.620 can take off

01:11:09.140 and make sure

01:11:09.780 its aircraft

01:11:10.340 aren't on the

01:11:10.900 airfield when

01:11:11.500 the Germans

01:11:12.460 come a calling

01:11:13.080 and secondly

01:11:13.800 they can attack

01:11:14.400 them and they

01:11:14.820 can manipulate

01:11:15.240 them and they

01:11:15.720 can control

01:11:16.200 them from the

01:11:16.660 ground so that

01:11:17.300 they're best

01:11:18.140 placed to attack

01:11:18.860 the Germans

01:11:19.220 and you know

01:11:19.960 it's often said

01:11:21.920 that the Battle

01:11:22.260 of Britain is

01:11:22.620 closer on

01:11:23.000 finish

01:11:23.140 there's absolutely

01:11:23.780 no such thing

01:11:24.380 you know the Germans

01:11:25.200 are absolutely

01:11:25.960 annihilated

01:11:26.620 well they're not

01:11:27.120 annihilated but

01:11:27.720 they're very very

01:11:28.960 badly beaten

01:11:29.760 you know in the

01:11:30.620 whole of the Battle

01:11:31.320 of Britain

01:11:31.700 they destroy

01:11:32.920 put out of action

01:11:34.220 one out of

01:11:35.140 138 airfields

01:11:36.400 for more than

01:11:36.740 48 hours

01:11:37.380 that is not

01:11:39.220 a good effort

01:11:40.000 you know when

01:11:41.000 they're used to

01:11:41.440 just coming over

01:11:41.940 and just destroying

01:11:42.700 everything in sight

01:11:43.400 so they don't

01:11:44.640 get very far

01:11:45.340 and they don't

01:11:46.940 even destroy

01:11:47.420 the RAF

01:11:48.040 not even close

01:11:48.860 their intelligence

01:11:49.860 is terrible

01:11:50.600 the tactics

01:11:51.240 are appalling

01:11:51.960 they switch to

01:11:54.020 bombing London

01:11:54.640 which is

01:11:55.240 catastrophic

01:11:55.920 and horrendous

01:11:57.380 and the Blitz

01:11:57.900 is the first

01:11:58.880 time ever

01:11:59.580 that cities

01:12:02.420 of one country

01:12:03.700 have a sustained

01:12:04.940 aerial bombardment

01:12:05.920 I mean it's

01:12:06.240 never happened

01:12:06.720 before

01:12:06.960 you know

01:12:07.200 Rotterdam's

01:12:07.640 been hit

01:12:07.960 Warsaw's

01:12:08.380 been hit

01:12:08.660 but not

01:12:09.200 in a sustained

01:12:09.740 way the last

01:12:10.320 seven months

01:12:10.780 so this is all

01:12:12.540 kind of you know

01:12:13.080 new turf

01:12:13.900 but Britain

01:12:14.860 shows that it

01:12:15.340 can take it

01:12:16.740 but my point is

01:12:18.260 they haven't even

01:12:18.640 got to the Navy

01:12:19.420 they haven't even

01:12:21.600 put a ship

01:12:22.180 in the water yet

01:12:23.060 and you know

01:12:24.220 you've got to

01:12:24.640 transfer an army

01:12:25.500 to do an invasion

01:12:26.380 well they haven't

01:12:27.420 got landing craft

01:12:28.020 there aren't any

01:12:28.480 landing craft

01:12:29.000 landing craft

01:12:29.480 haven't been invented

01:12:30.140 at that point

01:12:30.860 there's no

01:12:31.280 Higgins boat

01:12:31.900 or landing ship

01:12:33.220 or anything

01:12:33.600 so how are they

01:12:33.980 going to do this

01:12:34.380 well they're doing

01:12:34.780 it in river barges

01:12:35.660 which they've taken

01:12:36.240 from the Rhine

01:12:36.820 which is absolutely

01:12:37.980 scuppering their

01:12:39.520 internal trade

01:12:41.040 and industry

01:12:42.300 because they've got

01:12:42.800 no means of

01:12:43.300 movement

01:12:43.660 and they haven't

01:12:45.440 got enough

01:12:45.800 motorised barges

01:12:46.580 anyway so the

01:12:47.360 idea is one

01:12:47.860 motorised barge

01:12:48.620 tows the other

01:12:49.300 two

01:12:49.660 I mean can you

01:12:50.220 imagine how's

01:12:50.740 that going to

01:12:51.040 work when you

01:12:51.880 actually hit the

01:12:52.440 beach

01:12:52.740 I mean it's

01:12:53.400 just absolutely

01:12:54.220 bonkers

01:12:54.720 and even if they

01:12:56.020 had got there

01:12:56.620 then you know

01:12:57.480 they'd have been

01:12:57.960 absolutely hammered

01:12:58.680 by you know

01:12:59.300 millions of people

01:13:00.320 in uniform

01:13:00.900 you know firing

01:13:01.780 at them

01:13:02.080 so you know

01:13:03.460 Operation Sea Lion

01:13:04.240 which is the

01:13:04.640 proposed invasion

01:13:05.260 of Britain

01:13:05.760 has no chance

01:13:06.440 and it's not

01:13:07.740 going to happen

01:13:08.160 and it doesn't

01:13:09.060 happen

01:13:09.380 it's very very

01:13:10.520 difficult to do

01:13:11.380 an amphibious

01:13:11.880 invasion when you

01:13:12.480 haven't had years

01:13:13.360 of preparation

01:13:13.800 for it

01:13:14.300 what that does

01:13:16.020 do is it gives

01:13:16.880 Britain the

01:13:17.520 understanding

01:13:18.340 that any future

01:13:19.600 once it's isolated

01:13:21.620 any future

01:13:22.840 offensive operations

01:13:24.620 are going to have

01:13:25.180 to be amphibious

01:13:27.140 by their very

01:13:27.620 nature

01:13:27.920 so it does start

01:13:28.920 creating landing

01:13:29.520 craft and so does

01:13:30.180 the United States

01:13:30.820 at the same time

01:13:31.440 you know at the

01:13:32.060 same time that

01:13:32.740 France is surrendering

01:13:33.720 and Britain is

01:13:34.300 kind of taking

01:13:35.120 its navy back

01:13:35.920 from its army

01:13:36.880 back from Dunkirk

01:13:37.800 in late May

01:13:39.060 early June

01:13:39.520 1940

01:13:40.620 Roosevelt is going

01:13:42.360 ah you know

01:13:43.140 I need to do

01:13:43.600 this amazing

01:13:44.080 political volt fast

01:13:45.200 I need to

01:13:45.620 massively rearm

01:13:47.020 even though I

01:13:48.020 got into power

01:13:48.760 in the election

01:13:49.580 of 1932

01:13:50.260 on an isolationist

01:13:51.060 ticket

01:13:51.440 and anti-militarism

01:13:53.440 we now need to

01:13:54.380 change all that

01:13:55.220 and you know

01:13:56.560 we don't have

01:13:56.880 the time and space

01:13:57.480 to go into how

01:13:58.280 he does that

01:13:58.720 but he does that

01:13:59.320 very very effectively

01:14:00.220 so that by the

01:14:01.500 time that Britain

01:14:02.160 that America

01:14:03.020 comes into the

01:14:03.680 war in December

01:14:04.280 1941 actively

01:14:05.680 it has become

01:14:06.820 the arsenal of

01:14:07.440 democracy

01:14:07.880 but it goes from

01:14:08.760 kind of you know

01:14:09.260 nothing to this

01:14:10.640 to the huge

01:14:12.100 armed forces

01:14:14.060 and huge sort of

01:14:16.180 armaments

01:14:16.780 factories

01:14:17.400 that develops

01:14:19.060 in very very

01:14:20.120 quick order

01:14:20.760 you know

01:14:21.380 it's an astonishing

01:14:22.580 turnaround

01:14:23.060 but you know

01:14:24.280 Britain is doing

01:14:24.900 exactly the same

01:14:25.660 I mean Britain

01:14:26.100 produces 132

01:14:27.240 and a half thousand

01:14:27.900 aircraft in the

01:14:28.640 second world war

01:14:29.300 you know

01:14:29.620 Germany produces

01:14:30.580 maybe 80,000

01:14:31.740 United States

01:14:34.120 creates something

01:14:35.040 like over 315,000

01:14:36.560 aircraft in the

01:14:37.280 second world war

01:14:37.780 83,000 aircraft

01:14:39.380 in 1943 alone

01:14:40.500 I mean these are

01:14:41.780 astronomical figures

01:14:42.960 you know 83,000

01:14:44.020 aircraft is a thousand

01:14:44.980 more than the

01:14:45.580 capacity of

01:14:46.200 Twickenham Stadium

01:14:47.100 for example

01:14:47.660 you know imagine

01:14:48.820 what that looks like

01:14:49.620 in terms of actual

01:14:50.560 aircraft

01:14:51.020 I mean it is

01:14:51.500 absolutely incredible

01:14:52.500 but in 1939

01:14:53.860 September 1939

01:14:55.900 USA has the

01:14:57.180 19th largest army

01:14:58.280 in the world

01:14:58.900 of about 188,000

01:15:00.060 which is tiny

01:15:00.760 by 1930s standards

01:15:02.060 sandwiched between

01:15:03.080 Portugal and

01:15:03.640 Uruguay

01:15:04.100 so you know

01:15:04.900 to go from that

01:15:06.220 to kind of

01:15:06.640 six and a half

01:15:07.200 million people

01:15:07.800 in uniform

01:15:08.280 by 1945

01:15:08.940 is going some

01:15:10.160 and what

01:15:12.660 the United States

01:15:13.660 realised

01:15:14.000 what Britain

01:15:14.500 realised

01:15:14.920 is that

01:15:15.380 mass will win

01:15:16.440 you know

01:15:17.060 if you don't

01:15:17.700 lose in the

01:15:18.360 initial strike

01:15:19.280 Germany simply

01:15:20.460 doesn't have

01:15:21.560 the resources

01:15:22.600 to win

01:15:23.260 and I would say

01:15:24.040 on balance

01:15:24.960 Britain and

01:15:26.180 America

01:15:26.780 and Britain

01:15:28.260 start off with

01:15:28.960 fight a very

01:15:29.700 pragmatic war

01:15:30.760 they use the

01:15:31.700 resources to the

01:15:32.540 best of their

01:15:32.940 ability

01:15:33.300 Britain very

01:15:34.080 early on

01:15:34.500 realises that

01:15:35.160 the Atlantic

01:15:36.280 is the

01:15:37.040 battleground

01:15:37.600 which is going

01:15:38.200 to be the

01:15:38.480 most important

01:15:39.120 in the entire

01:15:40.480 war

01:15:40.860 and it is

01:15:41.500 because through

01:15:42.360 the Atlantic

01:15:42.820 all the shipping

01:15:43.660 passes

01:15:45.060 whether it's

01:15:45.600 going supplies

01:15:46.260 to the

01:15:47.560 Soviet Union

01:15:48.200 Arctic convoys

01:15:49.680 and all the rest

01:15:50.120 of it

01:15:50.400 or to

01:15:52.340 Middle East

01:15:53.720 or to

01:15:54.640 Europe

01:15:55.840 or obviously

01:15:56.560 supplying Britain

01:15:57.240 so

01:15:57.800 the Atlantic

01:15:59.560 is actually

01:15:59.920 crucial

01:16:00.260 that is where

01:16:00.900 the bulk

01:16:01.340 of Britain's

01:16:02.000 research and

01:16:02.520 development

01:16:02.820 goes into

01:16:03.560 by May 1941

01:16:06.180 so comparatively

01:16:07.000 early in the

01:16:07.760 war

01:16:08.260 Britain gets to

01:16:09.320 a point where

01:16:09.640 it is not

01:16:10.080 going to lose

01:16:10.640 the Battle of

01:16:11.060 Atlantic

01:16:11.300 it doesn't

01:16:12.020 mean it's won

01:16:12.580 it by that

01:16:12.980 point

01:16:13.180 the victory

01:16:14.360 in the Battle

01:16:14.640 of Atlantic

01:16:14.880 comes in May

01:16:15.460 1943

01:16:15.940 so two years

01:16:16.620 later

01:16:16.940 but it's got

01:16:17.560 to the point

01:16:17.840 where it's

01:16:18.080 not going to

01:16:18.400 lose

01:16:18.620 and I would

01:16:19.460 argue that

01:16:19.940 by the end

01:16:20.880 of 1941

01:16:21.700 Nazi Germany

01:16:22.940 is already

01:16:23.360 finished

01:16:23.760 which is

01:16:24.580 obviously a lot

01:16:25.220 earlier than

01:16:25.780 most people

01:16:26.160 would think

01:16:26.820 but just

01:16:27.160 think about

01:16:27.520 this

01:16:27.760 so the middle

01:16:28.440 of June

01:16:28.840 1941

01:16:29.960 Nazi Germany

01:16:31.380 has one

01:16:31.780 enemy

01:16:32.080 albeit Britain

01:16:33.680 it's Britain

01:16:34.460 plus

01:16:35.480 Dominion

01:16:36.080 Empire

01:16:36.480 but it only

01:16:37.120 has one

01:16:37.420 enemy

01:16:37.680 fast forward

01:16:38.500 six months

01:16:39.020 to the middle

01:16:39.460 of December

01:16:40.000 1941

01:16:40.760 has three

01:16:42.120 enemies

01:16:42.440 has the

01:16:42.980 United States

01:16:43.480 of America

01:16:43.900 has the

01:16:44.540 USSR

01:16:44.940 and it has

01:16:45.620 Great Britain

01:16:46.120 plus Empire

01:16:47.040 it's not

01:16:47.660 going to win

01:16:48.020 and it's lost

01:16:48.600 the Battle of

01:16:49.000 Moscow

01:16:49.260 which was

01:16:49.780 crucial as

01:16:50.660 well

01:16:50.780 that was

01:16:52.140 massive

01:16:52.520 I think

01:16:53.560 it's the first

01:16:54.060 time they

01:16:54.380 really lost

01:16:54.940 a lot of

01:16:55.320 men

01:16:55.520 and their

01:16:56.240 momentum

01:16:56.520 was stopped

01:16:56.920 they didn't

01:16:57.220 capture

01:16:57.520 Moscow

01:16:57.880 well

01:16:58.220 the truth

01:16:59.260 is Operation

01:16:59.720 Barbarossa

01:17:00.220 which is the

01:17:00.920 German battle

01:17:01.680 plan for the

01:17:02.200 invasion of the

01:17:02.600 Soviet Union

01:17:03.020 is terrible

01:17:03.560 it's a really

01:17:04.780 bad plan

01:17:05.360 it's completely

01:17:06.420 undercooked

01:17:06.880 they don't have

01:17:07.360 remotely enough

01:17:08.580 to do what

01:17:09.200 they're trying

01:17:09.580 to do

01:17:09.960 they're attacking

01:17:11.500 on three giant

01:17:12.620 for us

01:17:13.020 over a kind

01:17:13.500 of vast space

01:17:14.520 they simply

01:17:15.220 do not have

01:17:16.120 the mechanisation

01:17:17.000 the oil

01:17:18.020 the infrastructure

01:17:19.080 to be able to

01:17:19.620 carry it out

01:17:20.240 the only reason

01:17:21.040 they have the

01:17:21.420 success they do

01:17:22.060 is because

01:17:22.560 the Red Army

01:17:23.200 is even worse

01:17:23.880 and you know

01:17:25.280 this is because

01:17:25.780 of the huge

01:17:26.140 purges that have

01:17:26.820 taken place

01:17:27.220 in the 1930s

01:17:28.040 where 22,500

01:17:28.860 Red Army officers

01:17:31.440 have been executed

01:17:32.860 or imprisoned

01:17:33.520 including three

01:17:34.520 out of five

01:17:34.980 marshals

01:17:35.500 and I think

01:17:37.320 15 army

01:17:38.260 commanders

01:17:39.000 I mean

01:17:40.000 you know

01:17:40.420 they are terrible

01:17:42.120 and actually

01:17:44.260 the Red Army

01:17:45.080 continues to be

01:17:45.860 very very badly

01:17:46.680 led throughout

01:17:47.280 the Second World War

01:17:48.100 they've always

01:17:51.320 been incredibly

01:17:52.060 expensive

01:17:53.020 in manpower

01:17:54.160 and nothing's

01:17:55.500 changed

01:17:55.880 in the Second World War

01:17:56.560 you know

01:17:57.080 any Soviet

01:18:00.360 any Russian

01:18:01.340 leaders won't

01:18:02.160 like me for

01:18:02.580 saying this

01:18:03.060 but the

01:18:04.340 encirclement

01:18:05.040 of Stalingrad

01:18:06.320 the encirclement

01:18:06.900 of the German

01:18:07.280 Sixth Army

01:18:07.820 which is such

01:18:08.740 a kind of

01:18:09.180 you know

01:18:09.680 an important

01:18:10.340 moment

01:18:10.900 in the Second World War

01:18:11.660 while it's not

01:18:12.300 Germany's biggest

01:18:12.880 defeat

01:18:13.280 it is an

01:18:14.000 absolute

01:18:14.380 it is unquestionably

01:18:15.500 a big turning point

01:18:16.420 that only happens

01:18:17.980 thanks to 75,000

01:18:19.280 you know

01:18:20.100 United States

01:18:20.940 vehicles

01:18:21.340 that

01:18:21.720 Marshal Zhukov

01:18:24.140 is able to use

01:18:24.820 for Operation Uranus

01:18:25.760 so

01:18:26.400 you know

01:18:26.960 you can't do

01:18:27.480 the encirclement

01:18:28.200 unless you can

01:18:28.700 move fast

01:18:29.220 the only reason

01:18:29.600 you can move fast

01:18:30.300 is with all that

01:18:30.800 mechanisation

01:18:31.420 where does the

01:18:32.000 mechanisation come from

01:18:32.960 it comes from

01:18:34.020 you know

01:18:34.700 Lenny

01:18:35.200 yeah it comes from

01:18:35.900 Lenny

01:18:36.100 so

01:18:36.640 you know

01:18:38.960 there's absolutely

01:18:39.500 no question

01:18:40.120 that while

01:18:40.820 more blood

01:18:41.800 is spilled

01:18:42.340 on the

01:18:42.760 eastern front

01:18:43.860 that is absolutely

01:18:44.920 irrefutable

01:18:45.560 there's no question

01:18:46.420 about it

01:18:46.900 and the sacrifice

01:18:47.500 of the Soviet Union

01:18:48.260 particularly in terms

01:18:48.960 of civilian deaths

01:18:49.900 rather than

01:18:50.400 military deaths

01:18:51.180 is absolutely

01:18:52.820 horrific

01:18:53.880 and military deaths

01:18:54.580 is also horrific

01:18:55.400 military deaths

01:18:56.500 are really

01:18:57.340 to a large extent

01:18:58.600 result of military

01:19:00.320 inefficiency

01:19:00.860 I mean

01:19:02.220 you know

01:19:02.960 just take this

01:19:03.420 for example

01:19:03.920 Final Battle of Berlin

01:19:05.780 which is launched

01:19:07.280 on the 16th of April

01:19:08.380 1945

01:19:08.980 you know

01:19:09.960 they're coming up

01:19:10.680 up against

01:19:11.740 16 year olds

01:19:13.900 15 year olds

01:19:14.580 17 year olds

01:19:15.380 60 year olds

01:19:16.420 you know

01:19:17.160 Volksturm

01:19:17.800 you know

01:19:18.140 basic home guard

01:19:19.120 yes a handful

01:19:20.480 of veterans

01:19:21.000 and Waffen SS types

01:19:22.360 and all the rest of it

01:19:23.020 but you know

01:19:23.720 a massively

01:19:24.780 horrifically depleted

01:19:26.660 German armed forces

01:19:27.940 which shouldn't be able

01:19:28.780 to put up much

01:19:29.400 for a shot

01:19:29.760 against anyone

01:19:31.220 against them

01:19:32.520 they've got

01:19:32.980 thousands of tanks

01:19:34.520 tens of thousands

01:19:35.440 of artillery pieces

01:19:36.280 something like

01:19:36.620 41,000 artillery pieces

01:19:38.880 you know

01:19:39.360 millions of men

01:19:40.640 and yet

01:19:41.520 in a little over

01:19:42.540 two weeks

01:19:42.980 they managed to leave

01:19:43.600 over 900,000 casualties

01:19:45.280 that doesn't strike me

01:19:47.600 as an army

01:19:49.440 that really

01:19:50.240 knows what it's doing

01:19:51.640 very much

01:19:52.220 and the reason

01:19:53.640 they're all being killed

01:19:54.420 is because

01:19:54.940 their commanders

01:19:55.740 are incredibly reckless

01:19:56.660 with the lives

01:19:57.720 of their men

01:19:58.280 and they're very

01:19:59.040 under trained

01:19:59.560 so they're just

01:20:01.240 using mass

01:20:02.060 and bulk

01:20:02.620 to overwhelm

01:20:03.280 the enemy

01:20:03.600 but that comes

01:20:04.100 at a huge cost

01:20:04.900 whereas the western

01:20:05.840 allies are very

01:20:07.160 conservative

01:20:08.100 with men's lives

01:20:09.000 and yes

01:20:09.820 they're a bit

01:20:10.220 more cautious

01:20:10.740 and yes

01:20:11.520 that means

01:20:11.880 they might take

01:20:12.340 a little bit

01:20:12.640 longer to do

01:20:13.180 something

01:20:13.440 but the bottom

01:20:15.520 line is

01:20:15.820 what they're using

01:20:16.460 is they're using

01:20:17.040 steel

01:20:17.540 not our flesh

01:20:18.460 to do a lot

01:20:19.640 of the hard yards

01:20:20.280 in other words

01:20:20.840 they're using

01:20:21.320 their global reach

01:20:22.080 they're using

01:20:22.520 industrialisation

01:20:23.520 mechanisation

01:20:24.300 modern technology

01:20:25.560 to do a lot

01:20:26.200 of the hard yards

01:20:27.020 so that the

01:20:28.220 number of men

01:20:29.540 in the firing line

01:20:30.640 is kept

01:20:31.000 to an absolute

01:20:31.400 minimum

01:20:31.760 this is why

01:20:33.360 only you know

01:20:34.120 of allied armies

01:20:34.960 American

01:20:35.420 Canadian

01:20:36.160 British

01:20:36.500 armies

01:20:37.220 operating

01:20:37.660 in the European

01:20:38.160 theatre of

01:20:38.640 operations

01:20:39.000 for example

01:20:39.520 only around

01:20:40.200 14% are

01:20:40.960 infantry

01:20:41.400 only 8%

01:20:42.780 are in tanks

01:20:43.360 of which

01:20:43.820 that 8%

01:20:44.560 in a tank

01:20:45.280 unit

01:20:45.660 only about

01:20:46.280 48%

01:20:46.920 are actually

01:20:47.340 in tanks

01:20:48.180 the rest

01:20:48.820 are support

01:20:49.260 troops

01:20:49.460 supporting

01:20:49.880 those tanks

01:20:50.440 22%

01:20:52.200 are artillery

01:20:52.900 43%

01:20:54.300 are service

01:20:54.820 corps

01:20:55.080 and what

01:20:56.280 that tells

01:20:56.880 you is

01:20:57.320 this is

01:20:57.900 a very

01:20:58.480 very heavily

01:20:59.360 material based

01:21:01.100 heavily industrial

01:21:02.620 backed

01:21:03.240 armed forces

01:21:04.300 which is

01:21:04.920 all the more

01:21:05.500 efficient and

01:21:06.000 effective

01:21:06.320 as a result

01:21:06.900 of that

01:21:07.280 and the

01:21:09.160 commanders

01:21:09.620 because they're

01:21:10.160 from democracies

01:21:10.840 they're more

01:21:11.220 humane

01:21:11.760 and they don't

01:21:12.940 want to have

01:21:13.460 a slaughter

01:21:14.480 of a generation

01:21:15.160 like you had

01:21:15.620 in the first

01:21:15.960 world war

01:21:16.360 now the

01:21:17.580 consequence

01:21:18.000 of that

01:21:18.440 the flip side

01:21:19.260 of that

01:21:19.660 is that

01:21:20.700 if you are

01:21:23.760 unfortunate enough

01:21:24.680 to be in

01:21:25.000 infantry

01:21:25.400 your chances

01:21:26.040 of getting

01:21:26.360 through unscathed

01:21:27.040 are worse

01:21:27.540 than they were

01:21:27.960 in 1914

01:21:28.580 to 1918

01:21:29.340 but the numbers

01:21:31.020 are much

01:21:31.760 smaller

01:21:32.100 so the

01:21:33.920 casualty rate

01:21:35.480 as a proportion

01:21:36.460 of the

01:21:37.420 troops involved

01:21:38.580 is higher

01:21:39.120 but the numbers

01:21:40.460 of troops

01:21:40.780 are much

01:21:41.100 much smaller

01:21:41.560 and I think

01:21:42.280 you have to

01:21:42.920 give full credit

01:21:44.340 to the way

01:21:44.820 Britain and

01:21:45.200 America

01:21:45.480 fights its

01:21:45.960 wars

01:21:46.240 that it is

01:21:47.220 so

01:21:47.500 it's a

01:21:48.940 brotherhood

01:21:49.360 of the

01:21:50.160 three services

01:21:50.740 of brotherhood

01:21:51.400 of air

01:21:51.660 land

01:21:51.880 and sea

01:21:52.280 power

01:21:53.300 and they

01:21:54.800 are using

01:21:55.500 their modernity

01:21:56.380 and their

01:21:56.700 industrial scale

01:21:57.400 and capacity

01:21:57.880 and technology

01:21:58.500 to do a lot

01:22:00.140 of the hard

01:22:00.460 yards

01:22:00.780 what the

01:22:01.580 Red Army

01:22:02.200 is doing

01:22:02.560 is it's

01:22:02.900 using

01:22:03.220 technology

01:22:04.320 and industrial

01:22:06.640 muscle

01:22:07.140 but it's also

01:22:07.860 incredibly reckless

01:22:08.860 with men's

01:22:09.320 lives

01:22:09.540 and so

01:22:10.340 it's important

01:22:12.520 to make

01:22:13.080 and understand

01:22:13.680 that caveat

01:22:14.540 when we start

01:22:15.320 talking about

01:22:15.860 yes you know

01:22:16.460 this sort of

01:22:16.880 blood debt

01:22:17.680 to the

01:22:18.440 Soviet Union

01:22:19.060 or the rest

01:22:19.460 of it

01:22:19.640 which Stalin

01:22:20.340 and now Putin

01:22:21.060 is constantly

01:22:21.840 kind of

01:22:22.740 yes there was

01:22:23.860 a huge blood

01:22:24.380 debt

01:22:24.580 but to a

01:22:25.360 very large

01:22:25.820 degree

01:22:26.020 certainly from

01:22:26.400 a military

01:22:26.800 point of view

01:22:27.220 that was

01:22:27.520 entirely their

01:22:28.000 own fault

01:22:28.480 whereas from

01:22:31.080 an economic

01:22:31.760 point of view

01:22:32.240 and ultimately

01:22:32.740 it is economics

01:22:33.500 that win and

01:22:33.980 lose wars

01:22:34.580 for the most

01:22:35.000 part

01:22:35.320 economics

01:22:36.420 there's

01:22:36.540 absolutely

01:22:36.720 no question

01:22:37.280 that it

01:22:37.980 was the

01:22:38.280 West

01:22:38.520 that kind

01:22:38.940 of had

01:22:39.160 the decisive

01:22:39.660 part

01:22:40.040 because you

01:22:40.340 know

01:22:40.500 the fact

01:22:41.100 that Germany

01:22:41.520 lies in ruins

01:22:42.220 is down

01:22:42.640 to Western

01:22:44.420 muscle

01:22:44.880 economic

01:22:46.600 sanctions

01:22:49.080 and activities

01:22:49.900 I mean

01:22:51.180 Germany was

01:22:52.020 crippled

01:22:52.440 by the

01:22:54.300 West

01:22:54.620 and it's

01:22:55.860 also worth

01:22:56.360 bearing in

01:22:56.840 mind as

01:22:57.340 well

01:22:57.540 revisiting the

01:22:58.460 autocrat

01:22:59.040 point that

01:22:59.620 as Germany

01:23:01.420 was collapsing

01:23:02.200 Hitler

01:23:03.120 was absolutely

01:23:04.700 adamant to

01:23:05.260 keep on

01:23:05.620 fighting

01:23:06.000 to the

01:23:06.480 point of

01:23:07.020 it was

01:23:07.360 completely

01:23:07.720 delusional

01:23:08.660 but it

01:23:09.720 was always

01:23:10.100 delusional

01:23:10.580 and all

01:23:11.260 the

01:23:11.400 Nazi

01:23:12.520 commands

01:23:13.060 is delusional

01:23:13.680 and you

01:23:15.360 know

01:23:15.460 it is

01:23:15.760 really

01:23:16.080 really

01:23:16.320 important

01:23:16.580 to

01:23:16.740 understand

01:23:17.140 this

01:23:17.400 you're

01:23:17.720 not

01:23:18.100 dealing

01:23:18.540 with

01:23:19.100 normal

01:23:20.300 rational

01:23:20.880 people

01:23:21.260 their

01:23:21.460 decision

01:23:21.740 making

01:23:21.920 process

01:23:22.160 is

01:23:22.380 not

01:23:22.740 rational

01:23:23.220 it's

01:23:23.780 always

01:23:24.160 dictated

01:23:24.660 to by

01:23:25.020 ideology

01:23:25.560 and by

01:23:26.680 the fact

01:23:27.440 that Hitler

01:23:27.820 is surrounded

01:23:28.200 by sycophants

01:23:28.800 who's always

01:23:29.140 telling him

01:23:29.520 that he's

01:23:30.280 the best

01:23:30.720 that he's

01:23:31.500 the greatest

01:23:33.060 that he can

01:23:34.860 do no wrong

01:23:35.400 that all his

01:23:35.840 decisions are

01:23:36.400 right

01:23:36.700 and you

01:23:38.460 start to

01:23:38.820 believe that

01:23:39.360 nonsense

01:23:39.880 and Hitler

01:23:41.580 was starting

01:23:42.000 to believe

01:23:42.280 that from

01:23:42.600 a very

01:23:42.900 early stage

01:23:44.100 with

01:23:44.700 catastrophic

01:23:45.600 consequences

01:23:46.400 I mean

01:23:47.420 people quite

01:23:48.160 often ask

01:23:48.600 me

01:23:48.920 what was

01:23:50.320 the worst

01:23:50.600 decision

01:23:50.960 Hitler

01:23:51.280 ever made

01:23:51.700 and I was

01:23:51.980 going

01:23:52.140 invading

01:23:52.420 Poland

01:23:52.860 because of

01:23:54.080 what followed

01:23:54.880 it wasn't

01:23:55.760 entirely

01:23:56.200 inevitable

01:23:56.660 that it

01:23:57.100 was all

01:23:57.320 going to

01:23:57.480 end in

01:23:57.780 tears

01:23:58.020 but I'm

01:23:58.380 pretty

01:23:58.700 high I

01:24:00.440 think

01:24:00.740 I mean

01:24:01.460 you know

01:24:01.660 the French

01:24:05.040 were caught

01:24:05.300 napping

01:24:05.880 Barbarossa

01:24:07.360 should never

01:24:08.000 have got

01:24:08.340 you know

01:24:08.960 never have

01:24:10.380 encircled

01:24:11.000 Kiev for

01:24:11.900 example as

01:24:12.380 it then was

01:24:12.940 you know

01:24:13.660 in Ukraine

01:24:14.200 never got

01:24:15.140 close

01:24:15.700 you know

01:24:17.160 as I say

01:24:17.620 Barbarossa

01:24:18.020 was a

01:24:18.380 terrible

01:24:18.860 plan

01:24:19.380 and

01:24:20.560 a lot

01:24:22.580 of the

01:24:22.900 Nazi

01:24:23.280 successes

01:24:25.120 in the

01:24:25.520 first

01:24:25.760 part of

01:24:26.120 the war

01:24:26.620 were

01:24:28.880 because

01:24:31.080 Hitler

01:24:31.400 wasn't

01:24:31.940 controlling

01:24:32.320 everything

01:24:32.580 with such

01:24:33.060 a tight

01:24:33.380 leash

01:24:33.660 you know

01:24:35.000 there was

01:24:35.880 amongst

01:24:36.440 the better

01:24:36.920 trained

01:24:37.540 German

01:24:38.100 troops

01:24:38.600 and

01:24:38.800 commanders

01:24:39.300 there was

01:24:39.820 a

01:24:40.140 license

01:24:40.680 to

01:24:40.920 operate

01:24:41.360 which

01:24:41.560 gave

01:24:41.760 them

01:24:41.840 a

01:24:41.920 kind

01:24:42.000 of

01:24:42.100 freedom

01:24:42.420 of

01:24:42.640 maneuver

01:24:42.960 of

01:24:43.680 tactical

01:24:44.180 freedom

01:24:44.800 which

01:24:45.360 meant

01:24:45.580 they

01:24:45.720 were

01:24:45.840 able

01:24:46.280 to

01:24:46.460 respond

01:24:46.960 very

01:24:47.220 quickly

01:24:47.680 to

01:24:47.900 the

01:24:48.020 situations

01:24:48.400 in which

01:24:48.680 they

01:24:48.780 found

01:24:49.060 themselves

01:24:49.520 and

01:24:50.200 because

01:24:50.460 of

01:24:50.620 the

01:24:50.780 British

01:24:51.660 to

01:24:51.780 communicate

01:24:52.100 meant

01:24:52.720 that

01:24:52.880 you

01:24:53.000 could

01:24:53.140 suddenly

01:24:53.380 exploit

01:24:53.940 in a

01:24:54.560 way

01:24:54.720 that

01:24:54.880 you

01:24:55.040 couldn't

01:24:55.400 before

01:24:55.780 and

01:24:56.380 you

01:24:56.560 couldn't

01:24:57.140 thereafter

01:24:57.700 once

01:24:58.020 Hitler

01:24:58.220 started

01:24:58.820 to become

01:24:59.320 more

01:24:59.600 more

01:24:59.840 of

01:24:59.940 a

01:25:00.040 control

01:25:00.320 freak

01:25:00.620 but

01:25:01.240 yes

01:25:01.460 he's

01:25:01.920 completely

01:25:02.260 delusional

01:25:02.680 but

01:25:02.900 Hitler

01:25:03.540 as I was

01:25:04.740 saying

01:25:04.880 at the

01:25:05.040 beginning

01:25:05.260 he's

01:25:05.680 always

01:25:06.040 been

01:25:06.340 a

01:25:06.500 kind

01:25:06.680 of

01:25:07.500 an

01:25:07.940 either

01:25:08.180 or

01:25:08.600 us

01:25:09.300 or

01:25:09.460 them

01:25:09.780 black

01:25:10.200 or

01:25:10.360 white

01:25:10.560 kind

01:25:10.760 of

01:25:10.840 guy

01:25:11.140 he's

01:25:11.660 always

01:25:12.020 said

01:25:12.420 it

01:25:13.640 will

01:25:13.760 be

01:25:13.880 a

01:25:14.000 thousand

01:25:14.240 year

01:25:14.400 Reich

01:25:14.620 or

01:25:14.900 it

01:25:15.020 will

01:25:15.100 be

01:25:15.240 Armageddon

01:25:15.800 and

01:25:16.000 that

01:25:16.120 is

01:25:16.280 the

01:25:16.400 choice

01:25:16.660 of

01:25:16.780 the

01:25:16.900 will

01:25:17.160 to

01:25:19.260 win

01:25:20.460 this

01:25:20.760 war

01:25:21.120 this

01:25:21.360 victory

01:25:21.800 that

01:25:22.020 we

01:25:22.180 need

01:25:22.440 to

01:25:22.700 survive

01:25:23.740 for

01:25:24.640 the

01:25:24.800 Aryan

01:25:25.200 peoples

01:25:25.620 the

01:25:25.860 true

01:25:26.220 inheritors

01:25:26.840 of

01:25:27.020 the

01:25:27.140 world

01:25:27.380 to

01:25:27.580 survive

01:25:28.220 and

01:25:28.400 prevail

01:25:28.720 and

01:25:29.220 rule

01:25:29.720 the

01:25:29.900 world

01:25:30.200 for

01:25:30.900 millennia

01:25:31.540 to

01:25:31.720 come

01:25:31.980 it's

01:25:32.660 all

01:25:32.800 absolutely

01:25:33.660 twaddle

01:25:34.660 but

01:25:35.740 such

01:25:37.020 was his

01:25:37.320 hold

01:25:37.720 in the

01:25:38.400 1930s

01:25:39.120 because

01:25:39.340 it

01:25:39.540 seemed

01:25:40.080 that

01:25:40.300 he

01:25:40.420 transformed

01:25:40.960 Germany

01:25:41.480 they'd

01:25:42.040 gone

01:25:42.200 from

01:25:42.380 these

01:25:42.540 dark

01:25:43.020 years

01:25:43.280 to

01:25:43.380 suddenly

01:25:44.520 this

01:25:45.020 genius

01:25:45.880 was

01:25:46.200 taking

01:25:46.500 back

01:25:46.720 all the

01:25:46.940 lands

01:25:47.180 that

01:25:47.280 had

01:25:47.320 been

01:25:47.420 taken

01:25:47.720 so

01:25:48.160 cruelly

01:25:48.540 in

01:25:48.700 1919

01:25:49.300 without

01:25:49.680 a

01:25:49.840 shot

01:25:50.000 being

01:25:50.220 fired

01:25:50.640 everyone

01:25:51.540 had

01:25:51.780 jobs

01:25:52.120 were

01:25:52.280 shiny

01:25:53.500 and

01:25:53.680 gleaming

01:25:54.020 and

01:25:54.180 swastikas

01:25:56.320 with

01:25:58.220 a

01:25:58.380 tinge

01:25:59.580 of

01:26:00.120 old

01:26:01.880 school

01:26:02.220 Prussian

01:26:02.680 militarism

01:26:03.480 that

01:26:03.660 made

01:26:03.860 people

01:26:04.240 feel

01:26:05.560 good

01:26:05.780 about

01:26:06.040 themselves

01:26:06.540 that

01:26:07.200 was

01:26:07.360 the

01:26:07.480 principle

01:26:07.820 behind

01:26:08.120 the

01:26:08.280 elaborate

01:26:09.240 Nazi

01:26:09.840 uniforms

01:26:10.420 they

01:26:10.620 had

01:26:10.840 they

01:26:11.000 were

01:26:11.140 a

01:26:11.380 throwback

01:26:12.140 to

01:26:12.680 the

01:26:12.860 late

01:26:13.120 19th

01:26:13.760 century

01:26:14.280 militarism

01:26:15.480 lots

01:26:15.920 of

01:26:16.080 leather

01:26:16.520 jack

01:26:16.940 boots

01:26:17.360 incredibly

01:26:18.440 impractical

01:26:19.100 expensive

01:26:20.180 first of all

01:26:21.540 have proven

01:26:22.100 that canvas

01:26:22.900 is a much

01:26:23.300 better

01:26:23.500 source

01:26:23.860 of

01:26:24.120 webbing

01:26:24.960 and beltage

01:26:26.160 and

01:26:26.800 ankle boots

01:26:28.140 are much

01:26:28.400 more

01:26:28.540 effective

01:26:28.820 than

01:26:29.120 long

01:26:29.540 boots

01:26:29.800 because

01:26:30.000 they're

01:26:30.140 cheaper

01:26:30.560 etc

01:26:31.700 etc

01:26:32.040 but

01:26:32.460 that's

01:26:32.700 not

01:26:32.800 the

01:26:32.920 point

01:26:33.140 the

01:26:33.280 point

01:26:33.520 is

01:26:33.780 they

01:26:34.080 need

01:26:34.360 to be

01:26:34.620 shiny

01:26:34.940 and look

01:26:35.300 cool

01:26:35.580 because

01:26:36.140 you're

01:26:36.400 going

01:26:36.720 put on

01:26:37.620 this

01:26:37.800 uniform

01:26:38.180 and

01:26:38.560 you'll

01:26:38.760 stand

01:26:39.000 a little

01:26:39.280 bit

01:26:39.460 straighter

01:26:39.960 it's

01:26:40.120 like

01:26:40.320 the

01:26:41.080 grenadier

01:26:42.460 carsman

01:26:42.980 when he

01:26:43.200 puts

01:26:43.360 on his

01:26:43.680 bare

01:26:44.240 skin

01:26:44.440 and his

01:26:44.840 scarlet

01:26:45.300 tunic

01:26:45.620 he

01:26:45.800 just

01:26:46.060 feels

01:26:46.420 a bit

01:26:46.780 the

01:26:48.220 spine

01:26:48.560 is

01:26:48.780 straighter

01:26:49.220 the

01:26:49.320 shoulders

01:26:49.620 are

01:26:49.780 back

01:26:50.000 all the

01:26:50.260 rest

01:26:50.460 of it

01:26:50.760 and

01:26:51.640 there's

01:26:52.380 a subliminal

01:26:52.960 message

01:26:53.420 here

01:26:53.720 which is

01:26:54.280 we are

01:26:55.280 really cool

01:26:56.040 and if you

01:26:56.940 want to be

01:26:57.220 part of

01:26:57.520 our gang

01:26:58.000 come on

01:26:58.540 in

01:26:58.700 the water's

01:26:59.280 warm

01:26:59.640 look sharp

01:27:00.920 get the

01:27:01.320 fro line

01:27:01.900 what's not

01:27:02.440 to like

01:27:02.920 that's

01:27:03.700 the message

01:27:04.240 and by

01:27:05.420 the time

01:27:05.840 you've got

01:27:06.160 to 1939

01:27:07.000 and suddenly

01:27:08.080 Hitler's

01:27:08.440 invading

01:27:08.840 Poland

01:27:09.180 it's too

01:27:09.800 late

01:27:10.160 because

01:27:10.460 enough

01:27:10.880 people

01:27:11.280 have

01:27:11.480 bought

01:27:11.720 into

01:27:11.960 this

01:27:12.200 claptrap

01:27:12.760 that

01:27:13.440 they've

01:27:13.660 already

01:27:13.940 been

01:27:14.240 turned

01:27:14.640 and

01:27:15.200 at the

01:27:15.440 same

01:27:15.660 time

01:27:16.020 you've

01:27:16.220 got

01:27:16.300 a whole

01:27:16.580 generation

01:27:17.360 of young

01:27:17.820 Germans

01:27:18.220 who've

01:27:18.460 grown up

01:27:18.980 with this

01:27:19.520 so it's

01:27:20.320 absolutely

01:27:20.720 part of

01:27:21.020 their DNA

01:27:21.520 they've been

01:27:22.360 completely

01:27:22.960 indoctrinated

01:27:23.760 and they're

01:27:24.600 going to be

01:27:24.960 the youngsters

01:27:25.540 which are

01:27:25.980 then going

01:27:26.280 to take

01:27:26.600 on the

01:27:27.280 armed forces

01:27:27.800 and sacrifice

01:27:28.320 their lives

01:27:28.860 in the second

01:27:29.280 stage of the

01:27:29.800 second world war

01:27:30.400 so you've

01:27:31.120 got that

01:27:31.560 fodder

01:27:32.820 for your

01:27:34.260 aspirations

01:27:35.000 already lined

01:27:35.920 up

01:27:36.280 it takes

01:27:38.220 Armageddon

01:27:39.380 to knock

01:27:40.720 that on the

01:27:41.340 head

01:27:41.720 speaking of

01:27:42.560 Armageddon

01:27:43.000 let's just

01:27:43.800 ask this

01:27:44.480 question

01:27:44.640 we're way

01:27:45.420 over time

01:27:45.920 but I

01:27:46.200 want to

01:27:46.460 ask this

01:27:46.880 to from

01:27:47.360 again

01:27:47.680 to address

01:27:48.280 some of

01:27:48.580 the arguments

01:27:49.000 people are

01:27:49.520 making

01:27:49.840 can you

01:27:51.240 explain

01:27:51.720 what the

01:27:52.420 military

01:27:52.840 rationale

01:27:53.360 was

01:27:53.940 and how

01:27:54.480 justified

01:27:55.080 were some

01:27:55.880 of the

01:27:56.140 things that

01:27:56.520 the allies

01:27:56.960 did in

01:27:57.360 you talk

01:27:57.700 in your

01:27:57.900 book about

01:27:58.240 victory

01:27:58.560 in 1945

01:27:59.280 both to

01:28:00.740 Japan and

01:28:01.280 to Germany

01:28:01.760 in terms

01:28:02.260 of the

01:28:02.760 bombings

01:28:03.400 of the

01:28:03.680 cities

01:28:04.080 dropping

01:28:04.600 the nukes

01:28:05.060 of Japan

01:28:05.440 because I

01:28:05.880 think a

01:28:06.620 lot of

01:28:06.840 people simply

01:28:07.340 think that

01:28:07.960 those were

01:28:08.400 punitive

01:28:08.760 actions

01:28:09.300 designed

01:28:10.140 to punish

01:28:10.880 Germany

01:28:11.300 and Japan

01:28:11.780 for the

01:28:12.160 barbarities

01:28:12.720 that they

01:28:13.020 inflicted

01:28:13.660 on the

01:28:14.400 allies

01:28:14.780 was that

01:28:15.260 true

01:28:15.500 no not

01:28:16.700 really

01:28:17.000 I mean

01:28:17.500 up and

01:28:18.420 certainly up

01:28:18.920 until the

01:28:19.240 end of

01:28:19.420 1944

01:28:19.960 this is

01:28:20.860 you know

01:28:21.340 the bombing

01:28:21.900 campaign is

01:28:22.520 about stopping

01:28:23.080 Germany in

01:28:23.540 its tracks

01:28:23.940 and making

01:28:24.300 it much

01:28:24.880 much harder

01:28:25.380 for it to

01:28:26.020 protract war

01:28:27.060 and to

01:28:28.340 try and

01:28:28.820 ensure that

01:28:29.500 the number

01:28:29.900 of young

01:28:30.760 men risking

01:28:31.640 their lives

01:28:32.080 at the

01:28:32.280 front line

01:28:32.740 was kept

01:28:33.120 to an

01:28:33.340 absolute

01:28:33.580 minimum

01:28:33.940 you only

01:28:34.520 have 14

01:28:35.080 percent

01:28:35.360 infantry

01:28:35.740 if you've

01:28:36.160 got heavy

01:28:36.520 bombers

01:28:36.760 coming over

01:28:37.240 and destroying

01:28:37.720 marshalling

01:28:38.540 yards and

01:28:39.160 aircraft

01:28:39.820 factories

01:28:40.300 and you

01:28:41.040 know that

01:28:41.360 comes with

01:28:41.860 hitting cities

01:28:42.520 as well

01:28:42.900 because a lot

01:28:43.420 of these

01:28:43.660 factories

01:28:44.000 are in

01:28:44.380 conurbations

01:28:44.940 so you

01:28:45.760 know it's

01:28:45.980 unavoidable

01:28:46.580 that's not

01:28:47.200 mean to say

01:28:47.620 that there

01:28:48.980 isn't a

01:28:49.340 deliberate policy

01:28:50.020 of area

01:28:50.380 bombing

01:28:50.700 there is

01:28:51.620 but by

01:28:52.780 area bombing

01:28:53.380 you are

01:28:53.780 destroying

01:28:54.880 infrastructure

01:28:55.300 you are

01:28:55.920 destroying

01:28:56.340 civilians

01:28:56.840 you're

01:28:57.180 destroying

01:28:57.520 workers

01:28:58.220 you're

01:28:59.640 making

01:28:59.880 life

01:29:00.140 difficult

01:29:00.480 and you

01:29:01.080 are also

01:29:01.520 trying to

01:29:01.940 hit

01:29:02.160 factories

01:29:02.760 as well

01:29:03.100 at the

01:29:03.300 same

01:29:03.440 time

01:29:03.760 so you're

01:29:04.780 doing that

01:29:05.160 by the beginning

01:29:06.260 of 1945

01:29:06.800 what one has

01:29:07.460 to understand

01:29:07.940 is that

01:29:08.340 everything that

01:29:08.760 happens in

01:29:09.120 Europe

01:29:09.500 in 1945

01:29:10.520 has to be

01:29:11.460 seen through

01:29:11.900 the prism

01:29:12.340 of the war

01:29:12.740 against

01:29:13.000 Imperial Japan

01:29:13.540 and what

01:29:14.260 the war

01:29:14.500 against

01:29:14.720 Imperial Japan

01:29:15.260 has shown

01:29:15.640 is that

01:29:15.940 the closer

01:29:16.420 the Allies

01:29:18.400 get to

01:29:19.100 Japan

01:29:19.580 itself

01:29:20.160 the harder

01:29:20.720 the Japanese

01:29:21.220 fight

01:29:21.580 so in the

01:29:22.180 Battle of

01:29:22.460 Peleliu

01:29:22.760 for example

01:29:23.200 there's 10,000

01:29:24.000 Japanese

01:29:24.840 defenders on this

01:29:25.640 tiny island

01:29:26.440 of which

01:29:27.100 only about

01:29:27.580 360

01:29:28.300 pull up

01:29:30.620 their hands

01:29:30.980 and surrender

01:29:31.500 the rest

01:29:32.180 are killed

01:29:32.480 so they're

01:29:33.020 fighting to

01:29:33.400 the death

01:29:33.760 you know

01:29:34.240 on Iwo Jima

01:29:35.000 that figure

01:29:35.480 is even more

01:29:35.880 there's like

01:29:36.420 18,500

01:29:37.320 defenders

01:29:38.160 250 people

01:29:39.920 surrender

01:29:40.980 out of the

01:29:41.680 entire

01:29:42.200 you know

01:29:43.000 so that means

01:29:43.600 basically

01:29:44.100 over 18,000

01:29:45.720 Japanese

01:29:46.340 have fought

01:29:47.020 to the death

01:29:47.740 on this

01:29:48.100 tiny

01:29:48.540 island

01:29:49.180 and then

01:29:49.860 you go

01:29:50.140 to

01:29:50.300 Okinawa

01:29:52.000 which

01:29:52.220 launched

01:29:52.980 on the

01:29:53.400 1st of

01:29:54.500 April

01:29:54.700 and goes

01:29:55.220 on through

01:29:55.640 this period

01:29:56.080 of May

01:29:56.480 1945

01:29:57.600 into June

01:29:58.360 1945

01:29:58.960 which is

01:29:59.760 arguably

01:30:00.120 the bloodiest

01:30:00.700 battle

01:30:01.040 of the

01:30:01.620 entire

01:30:01.860 Second World

01:30:02.240 War

01:30:02.540 and you're

01:30:03.740 thinking

01:30:04.020 yikes

01:30:04.720 we've got

01:30:05.520 to invade

01:30:05.900 Japan

01:30:06.140 here

01:30:06.540 and in

01:30:07.620 May 1945

01:30:08.280 there's no

01:30:08.800 guarantee

01:30:09.120 the atomic

01:30:09.640 bomb is going

01:30:10.100 to work

01:30:10.540 or that

01:30:10.900 it's

01:30:11.320 practicable

01:30:11.880 or that

01:30:12.640 morally

01:30:13.480 it will even

01:30:13.920 be given

01:30:14.660 the decision

01:30:15.060 to go

01:30:15.400 with it

01:30:15.780 so

01:30:16.800 what there

01:30:18.520 is in

01:30:18.920 1945

01:30:19.820 with the

01:30:20.500 destruction

01:30:21.400 of Dresden

01:30:22.000 which incidentally

01:30:22.800 was asked

01:30:24.500 for by the

01:30:25.180 Soviet Union

01:30:25.840 because it

01:30:26.340 was a major

01:30:27.080 rail hub

01:30:27.720 and a flow

01:30:28.580 through which

01:30:29.100 German troops

01:30:30.220 were being

01:30:30.500 filtered down

01:30:31.080 to the

01:30:31.480 Italian front

01:30:32.080 and onto

01:30:32.500 the southern

01:30:32.880 eastern front

01:30:33.460 and had

01:30:34.640 lots of

01:30:35.180 something like

01:30:35.820 135

01:30:36.240 different

01:30:36.800 industries

01:30:37.280 and operations

01:30:38.640 working on

01:30:39.220 the war

01:30:39.480 effort

01:30:39.760 so from

01:30:40.800 all which

01:30:42.100 way you

01:30:42.380 look at

01:30:42.620 it

01:30:42.700 it was a

01:30:43.020 legitimate

01:30:43.500 target

01:30:44.640 it's not

01:30:45.580 necessarily

01:30:45.920 legitimate

01:30:46.320 to strike

01:30:47.460 the centre

01:30:47.940 of the

01:30:48.320 old town

01:30:49.100 but militarily

01:30:51.340 it is a

01:30:52.540 legitimate

01:30:53.060 target

01:30:53.500 and what

01:30:54.960 one has

01:30:55.220 to understand

01:30:55.620 is in

01:30:55.920 1945

01:30:56.520 Germany

01:30:57.900 is completely

01:30:58.640 defeated

01:30:59.140 you know

01:30:59.780 it is

01:31:00.140 absolutely

01:31:00.800 stuffed

01:31:01.700 and in

01:31:03.180 February

01:31:03.480 1945

01:31:04.140 the Reichsbahn

01:31:04.860 collapses

01:31:05.340 and the

01:31:06.080 Reichsbahn

01:31:06.380 is the

01:31:07.060 German railway

01:31:07.520 network

01:31:07.860 and it's

01:31:08.060 very much

01:31:08.380 the glue

01:31:08.800 that's

01:31:09.040 kept the

01:31:09.300 whole thing

01:31:09.600 going

01:31:09.820 because

01:31:10.020 they don't

01:31:10.220 have enough

01:31:10.480 oil and

01:31:10.840 fuel

01:31:11.020 to be able

01:31:11.480 to be able

01:31:11.500 to be able

01:31:11.780 to be able

01:31:12.060 mechanised

01:31:12.640 so they're

01:31:13.340 dependent on

01:31:13.820 coal power

01:31:14.340 steam

01:31:14.620 power

01:31:14.940 and that

01:31:16.240 just collapses

01:31:16.860 it

01:31:17.100 so basically

01:31:17.780 Germany is

01:31:18.580 totally finished

01:31:19.660 at that point

01:31:20.360 I mean it's

01:31:21.080 already finished

01:31:21.760 I mean most

01:31:22.220 people

01:31:22.540 most nations

01:31:23.400 surrender

01:31:23.940 because they've

01:31:24.420 run out of money

01:31:24.920 and they're not

01:31:25.260 going to win

01:31:25.660 you know

01:31:26.460 reference

01:31:27.440 November 1918

01:31:28.620 Nazi Germany is

01:31:30.520 not like that

01:31:31.060 because of

01:31:31.760 Hitler's kind of

01:31:32.460 evil or

01:31:33.040 kind of black

01:31:33.480 or white

01:31:33.860 thousand year

01:31:34.480 Reich or

01:31:34.860 Armageddon

01:31:35.280 kind of

01:31:35.600 approach to

01:31:36.200 kind of

01:31:36.660 conducting a war

01:31:37.520 so they're

01:31:38.100 still going

01:31:38.720 but there is

01:31:39.440 mounting

01:31:40.000 frustration

01:31:40.740 and anger

01:31:42.320 from the

01:31:43.340 western allies

01:31:44.140 that Germany

01:31:44.920 just won't

01:31:45.540 give up

01:31:46.060 you know the

01:31:46.760 moment you

01:31:47.340 surrender

01:31:47.720 we'll stop

01:31:48.260 bombing your

01:31:48.620 cities

01:31:48.860 it's a really

01:31:49.700 really simple

01:31:50.340 equation

01:31:50.780 and we can

01:31:51.460 get on with

01:31:51.880 things

01:31:52.100 and the reason

01:31:52.760 they're frustrated

01:31:53.280 is because they

01:31:53.780 know they need to

01:31:54.440 save as much

01:31:55.040 manpower as they

01:31:55.600 possibly can

01:31:56.080 for the

01:31:56.560 prospective

01:31:56.920 invasion of

01:31:57.520 Japan

01:31:57.840 which they're

01:31:58.600 expecting to do

01:31:59.240 at the end of

01:31:59.660 1945 into 1946

01:32:01.040 and which they are

01:32:02.100 conservatively estimating

01:32:03.160 is going to cost over

01:32:04.020 two million casualties

01:32:04.980 and that is the

01:32:07.260 backdrop

01:32:07.540 so there is no

01:32:09.100 atomic bomb in the

01:32:10.140 first half of 1945

01:32:11.200 you know the first

01:32:11.900 test is the 16th of

01:32:12.800 July 1945

01:32:13.620 no one knows

01:32:14.600 whether it's going

01:32:15.000 to work

01:32:15.420 and there was one

01:32:16.700 thing detonating it

01:32:17.720 there was another

01:32:18.080 thing delivering it

01:32:19.120 to your target

01:32:20.340 and there was another

01:32:21.340 thing having the

01:32:22.180 moral decision

01:32:23.000 to actually go ahead

01:32:25.400 with it

01:32:25.760 so these are huge

01:32:27.000 obstacles to its

01:32:28.220 operation

01:32:28.620 and this is just

01:32:29.400 not clear that this

01:32:30.340 is going to happen

01:32:30.900 so there's a Potsdam

01:32:31.920 declaration hinting

01:32:33.360 that they've got this

01:32:33.940 terrible weapon

01:32:34.600 Japan lay down

01:32:35.820 your arms

01:32:36.320 it doesn't

01:32:37.060 you know what is

01:32:38.020 the alternative

01:32:38.500 the alternative

01:32:39.220 is economic

01:32:40.860 siege

01:32:43.920 you know where

01:32:45.000 Japan is literally

01:32:46.640 starved to death

01:32:47.540 which would have

01:32:48.820 ended up with

01:32:49.400 millions of

01:32:50.160 casualties had it

01:32:50.860 gone down that

01:32:51.360 route

01:32:51.580 or you invade Japan

01:32:53.580 with millions of

01:32:54.720 casualties

01:32:55.060 or you destroy

01:32:56.680 two cities

01:32:57.280 with a

01:32:57.680 or hopefully

01:32:58.180 one city

01:32:58.880 and then a

01:32:59.360 second city

01:32:59.880 with atomic

01:33:00.380 bombs

01:33:00.720 which kill

01:33:01.300 you know

01:33:01.640 200,000

01:33:02.320 and why did

01:33:02.920 it drop the

01:33:03.280 second one

01:33:03.720 because Japan

01:33:04.540 hadn't surrendered

01:33:05.440 in fact they did

01:33:06.360 try to

01:33:06.860 and then they

01:33:07.220 had a coup

01:33:07.820 attempt against

01:33:08.420 the emperor

01:33:08.720 didn't they

01:33:09.540 that was after

01:33:10.120 the second one

01:33:10.540 after the second

01:33:11.060 one

01:33:11.440 even after the

01:33:12.240 second one

01:33:12.680 after the first

01:33:13.560 one they still

01:33:13.920 didn't believe

01:33:14.300 that it could

01:33:14.780 be an atomic

01:33:15.300 bomb

01:33:15.560 because they'd

01:33:16.460 had an atomic

01:33:16.820 policy and they

01:33:17.360 hadn't invented it

01:33:18.100 so therefore

01:33:18.480 they hadn't invented

01:33:19.360 it it couldn't be

01:33:19.940 possible

01:33:20.260 but after the

01:33:23.000 second one

01:33:23.640 the emperor

01:33:24.720 decided to

01:33:26.020 surrender

01:33:26.340 and the

01:33:26.780 military guys

01:33:27.440 were like

01:33:27.700 no no no

01:33:28.060 we're going

01:33:28.360 to keep

01:33:28.600 fine

01:33:28.780 there was

01:33:29.500 a cabinet

01:33:30.240 split

01:33:30.680 the emperor

01:33:32.000 was kind of

01:33:32.500 sort of

01:33:32.760 slightly neutral

01:33:33.340 on it

01:33:33.640 then there was

01:33:34.060 a coup

01:33:34.320 then the emperor

01:33:35.220 said I really

01:33:35.820 think we should

01:33:36.260 throw in the

01:33:36.600 town

01:33:36.800 and it was

01:33:38.440 again it was

01:33:39.060 unconditional

01:33:39.460 surrender

01:33:39.900 except the

01:33:40.300 condition that

01:33:40.840 the emperor

01:33:42.100 remain in

01:33:42.600 place which

01:33:42.940 he did

01:33:43.180 until 1987

01:33:44.120 or 89

01:33:45.380 when he

01:33:45.720 finally died

01:33:46.240 James we've

01:33:47.200 a overrun

01:33:47.960 b covered all

01:33:49.020 the questions

01:33:49.520 we were going

01:33:49.940 to ask you

01:33:50.380 from our

01:33:51.060 sub stack

01:33:51.460 supporters so

01:33:52.140 thank you for

01:33:52.580 your time

01:33:52.880 it's been

01:33:53.140 really great

01:33:53.680 I hope people

01:33:54.140 read the book

01:33:54.580 neither of us

01:33:56.160 had a chance

01:33:56.660 it's literally

01:33:57.080 just come out

01:33:57.680 don't worry

01:33:58.000 we very much

01:33:58.640 look forward

01:33:59.000 to reading it

01:33:59.540 a real pleasure

01:34:00.820 to have you on

01:34:01.540 and the last

01:34:02.640 question we always

01:34:03.420 end on is the

01:34:04.120 same which is

01:34:04.600 what's the one

01:34:05.060 thing we're not

01:34:05.720 talking about

01:34:06.420 as a society

01:34:07.280 that we should

01:34:07.700 be

01:34:07.920 how we properly

01:34:10.660 rearm now

01:34:11.720 that's what we

01:34:13.620 need to do

01:34:14.620 all right

01:34:16.420 good night

01:34:16.880 see you later

01:34:18.280 Broadway's smash

01:34:32.360 hit the Neil

01:34:33.200 Diamond musical

01:34:34.020 a beautiful

01:34:34.900 noise is

01:34:35.940 coming to

01:34:36.460 Toronto the

01:34:37.240 true story of

01:34:38.040 a kid from

01:34:38.600 Brooklyn destined

01:34:39.480 for something

01:34:40.080 more featuring

01:34:40.900 all the songs

01:34:41.640 you love including

01:34:42.760 America forever

01:34:43.920 in blue jeans

01:34:44.600 and sweet

01:34:45.360 Caroline like

01:34:46.580 Jersey Boys and

01:34:47.620 beautiful the

01:34:48.340 next musical

01:34:49.140 mega hit is

01:34:49.960 here the

01:34:50.600 Neil Diamond

01:34:51.220 musical a

01:34:52.240 beautiful noise

01:34:53.120 now through

01:34:53.680 June 7th

01:34:54.480 2026 at the

01:34:55.920 Princess of

01:34:56.480 Wales Theatre

01:34:57.140 get tickets at

01:34:58.120 murbush.com

TRIGGERnometry - June 08, 2025

WW2： Why We Fought & How We Won - Historian James Holland

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