TRIGGERnometry - Zia Yusuf - I Make No Apologies For Trying To Save Britain

00:00:00.000 you said that you were quitting reform because doing that job was not a good use of your time

00:00:05.900 and then you came back two days later yeah and i regret the tweet on the current trajectory

00:00:10.900 the country's on it's not a bad outcome it's a somewhat dystopian one number one we've got to

00:00:18.460 secure the border and freeze net migration for i thought initially like two or three years i think

00:00:23.180 it's going to be longer now we think there's north of 1.2 million people here illegally in this

00:00:26.920 country we're going to deport all of them it is a national emergency you're going to drag 55 year

00:00:32.160 olds who've been here since they were young young men and women out of their houses and send them

00:00:36.960 back to a country that they don't even know yes if you are here illegally i think that does need to be

00:00:41.320 done you're gonna have 350 to 400 reform mps are you guys actually going to be able to get along

00:00:46.580 enough to to achieve results that's what i think people are asking

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00:01:20.700 dear youssef welcome to trigonometry it's my pleasure to be here it's been a long time coming

00:01:26.600 uh you were the chairman of reform you resigned uh came back very quickly uh we'll talk about that and

00:01:33.080 all the other stuff there is to talk about reform uk which you're again back in but first who are

00:01:39.300 you we often have you know people from the political world and it sort of feels like

00:01:42.960 you know you only know their views but you don't know who they are so what's your story

00:01:46.540 yeah so my story i'm a second generation immigrant my parents came to the uk from sri lanka in the early

00:01:53.020 1980s my father had recently qualified as a doctor since then my mom qualified as a nurse between them

00:01:59.960 they've done half a century service to the nhs in fact my dad has only ever done nhs work as a matter

00:02:05.800 of principle um so they didn't you know i didn't come from money um but they gave me things which i'm

00:02:11.620 very grateful for they gave me love and they worked really hard to give me a great education so

00:02:15.640 i got a 50 scholarship to attend a school called hampton which is an independent church of england

00:02:21.160 boys school and you know they i remember they were both working two jobs um and took out a second

00:02:28.260 mortgage to be able to afford even that 50 reduced amount um and i was born in scotland in a little

00:02:35.700 town called bells hill my little sister was born in truro in cornwall my elder brother went to six

00:02:40.120 different primary schools because my dad had to go wherever the work was so it was a real

00:02:44.020 uh you know somewhat archetypal immigrant story and this country you know as someone who's born here

00:02:51.740 i've raised in southwest london in a little town called hampton and incredibly grateful for the

00:02:57.020 opportunity set this country gave me um so i studied at the lsc i went to work in the city for a couple of

00:03:02.060 american investment banks and then quit that after five years started a tech company sold that nine years

00:03:07.160 later uh for quite a large amount of money to an american bank and was trying to work out what i

00:03:12.820 was going to do next and nigel said he was coming back into british politics i remember when he

00:03:17.240 originally said he wasn't i was pretty devastated and i've seen i spent a lot of time in america

00:03:22.960 you know we obviously sold to an american company uh we had a lot of employees there so i've seen quite a

00:03:29.740 lot of the world thankfully and the united kingdom remains in my view the best country in the world

00:03:35.600 and i think it can be a powerful prosperous and poised country again but it's got to get its act

00:03:40.740 together very quickly and one thing i've always been reasonably good at is spotting inflection

00:03:45.480 points and trends you know in tech there's the law of the founder is very big right you you have

00:03:52.420 um you know mark zuckerberg or elon masque or any of the bezos or any of these figures nigel is the

00:03:59.180 ultimate political founder right he's singular i think in terms of his talent and we've all seen i mean

00:04:04.920 you you um we were talking just before the cameras started rolling on one of your og uh viewers and

00:04:10.340 fans right from when you first started and you know you've been talking a long time if you think

00:04:14.680 about the world when you first started probably hence the name that the pendulum had swung the

00:04:19.840 proverbial pendulum had swung so far to the left and anyone who's read history knows that that pendulum

00:04:25.160 swings um and it had swung very far to the left nigel said he was coming back into british politics

00:04:30.400 and i saw actually there was an opportunity for something spectacular and historic to happen and

00:04:35.860 at that time if you remember june last year it feels a long long time ago it was a year ago

00:04:40.280 you know reform had no mps it was polling at around 11 10 11 odd percent and was something of it was a

00:04:49.060 pressure group basically to try to get the tories to be a bit more small c conservative and now

00:04:54.640 obviously we are well i mean what nigel has done as leaders is remarkable um he's the favorite to be

00:05:01.340 the next prime minister and i think you know for me one thing i've always been extremely passionate

00:05:05.480 about is social mobility because i think i'm a reasonably good example of that and again any

00:05:11.400 student of history knows that as soon as society loses social mobility it is very short-lived and i

00:05:17.720 wrote an op-ed in the telegraph last june when i first got involved with reform and i said

00:05:21.780 on the current trajectory the country is on it's not a bad outcome the uk is headed to

00:05:28.000 it's a somewhat dystopian one i mean i i'm my family originally from sri lanka so no reasonable

00:05:34.160 amount about sectarian politics and what that what that can do to a society um and i think we have a

00:05:40.660 real binary outcome you know that mean which way uh western you know i think that really is the case

00:05:46.260 right now and you know what reform stands for is really restoring a social contract which is

00:05:52.980 hanging by a thread i mean it's not even fraying anymore i think it is hanging by a thread as i said

00:05:57.560 my story is someone who is a second generation immigrant hugely grateful for the opportunity set

00:06:03.860 this country has given uh me my family and also like to be honest really really um aware of the

00:06:11.760 invaluable contribution immigrants have made to this country now that doesn't mean it's a country built

00:06:16.060 by immigrants or even that diversities are strained that is nonsense and really counterproductive for

00:06:20.800 people to be claiming that and deeply insulting frankly um to to to the many generations who built

00:06:26.380 this country um but obviously immigrants have made a contribution to this country and i remember you

00:06:30.480 did a video when you talked about immigration really being uh you know a quantitative point right

00:06:35.200 it's something that you know a little bit is can be good um too much is very bad when my family

00:06:41.020 came here in the early 1980s net migration was anywhere between 25 000 and 50 000 as you know

00:06:46.600 that's been trending at like 800 000 to a million always revised up by the ons i mean ask yourselves

00:06:52.820 why the ons has to revise up you know when it hit a million it was revised up from 800 000

00:06:57.620 these are legal migrants right so they're literally going through turnstiles with passports if you were

00:07:03.400 to ask any major corporation in the uk how many people are in their office at any given point they'll be

00:07:08.040 able to tell you because they've got turnstiles so the only there's only one reason why the british

00:07:11.820 government apparently can't tell you until way after the event is because they're consciously

00:07:15.320 making a decision not to so i think there are many issues with the country at the moment i do think

00:07:20.200 there is a path to i don't have kids yet i hope to have kids and i want this to be a country that they

00:07:25.100 and their kids and their kids are super excited to live in and i still think we have an opportunity

00:07:29.900 set for that which is why i work as a volunteer and have basically dedicated my life to this

00:07:35.020 come back a little bit before we get stuck into all the politics uh to you you make two simultaneous

00:07:40.940 points and i think it's the way a lot of people feel particularly people who love this country who

00:07:44.500 are patriotic you say it's one it's the greatest place in the in the world and yet we are headed down

00:07:49.920 this terrible path and we're close to disaster and the social contract is hanging by a thread so what

00:07:56.800 are the things that make this country great that you see and what are the things that we're

00:08:02.860 really ought to worry about as much as as you worry about them yeah so what makes the country great

00:08:08.960 i think obviously this country invented english common law which still is the preponderant some

00:08:14.620 notable exception sadly but is the preponderant uh legal system obviously um the people are amazing

00:08:20.980 i mean when my mom tells me stories about how when they first arrived in the uk and you know they went

00:08:26.440 from uh you know scotland and bells hill to to um darlington to truro and all over the country and

00:08:34.260 just universally incredibly welcoming lovely warm-hearted um warmth of spirit and generous

00:08:41.080 people frankly now i think taken advantage of um uh so that's the first point great dynamism great

00:08:47.280 talent i mean this is the country that played a massive role obviously in uh ending world war ii i

00:08:53.260 think about the enigma code and bletchley park and has had brilliant not only brave courageous people

00:08:57.960 but just brilliant scientists um who have contributed so much to the world or you know i gave a speech at

00:09:03.340 the rally in june last year just you know riffing through all the incredible things the jet engine

00:09:08.900 and the television and the computer and the internet all british inventions and if you fast forward to

00:09:14.520 today i mean this isn't some sort of harking back to a bygone era in an unhelpful way we still have in

00:09:21.380 this country in an era of ai which i know a reasonable amount um about we still have a

00:09:27.940 significant percentage of the talent density that exists in artificial intelligence and these people

00:09:32.280 you know that sort of 99th percentile of intellectual capital in the country more than ever in our species

00:09:37.820 history has the potential to deliver exponential incredible economic returns for the whole country

00:09:44.300 it's not really is that where the problems are though because we are chasing those people out at a rapid rate

00:09:48.500 oh i mean at a at a frightening rate yeah yeah i mean it's one reason why and we can talk about the

00:09:55.060 social contract um generally but yeah you know people sadly the people many people who have the

00:10:01.400 option to leave in fact a larger proportion who have the option and the ability to leave are leaving i'm

00:10:06.320 sure you know people like that i know people like that but come back to bring it back to a positive

00:10:10.280 so many of those people i'm telling you are leaving with a heavy heart and leaving one foot here

00:10:15.740 and to the degree that they believe reform is arriving i mean these are all people they're not

00:10:20.980 expecting it i don't believe people move to i think people move to dubai from the uk despite a lot of

00:10:26.180 dubai you know i like going there on holiday but they go they don't go there because they're excited

00:10:30.680 about going to dubai they might try and justify but it's largely because of the tax regime and because

00:10:34.660 they feel frankly persecuted in the uk i mean one of the really interesting things for me and it's much

00:10:39.960 safer over there as well a thousand percent that's such a good point because you know we're working on

00:10:44.720 some policies at the moment around um you know tax and you know how do you make this place welcome

00:10:49.840 but you're so right that's so important it's not just about the tax regime i mean if you look at

00:10:54.060 california where the richest people in the world live um you know mark zuckerberg elon musk they don't

00:11:00.140 live in dubai they don't live in monica right it's not exactly a low tax regime california but the but

00:11:05.620 but they are celebrated there those wealth creators you know they're celebrated in this country they're

00:11:11.360 being uh looked down upon and and and frankly made to feel very very unwelcome but you're so right

00:11:18.100 about that you know in dubai you can you see exotic cars and people leave their keys in the ignition

00:11:23.700 you know people leave their phone on a park bench to the good dubai has parks you know probably

00:11:28.400 but leave on the budget and it's still there when you come back or somebody hands it in that law and

00:11:33.880 order aspect i mean now when people take their phones out in london their whole they're grasping their

00:11:39.600 phones and there's data to back up that human instinct the chances of a perpetrator of smartphone

00:11:46.060 theft in london even being identified not arrested charged convicted just identified is sub one percent

00:11:52.800 right so if you have a north of 99 probability of getting away with it you create an environment

00:11:58.340 where everyone's terrified so no look these are these are really important point and we were talking

00:12:02.740 just before the camera came on about difficult conversations now needing to be had about the

00:12:07.160 social contract and i think there's the social contract around just to be real you know natives

00:12:12.760 immigrants there's a specific conversation about that secondly there's younger young and old that's

00:12:19.160 been going on for a long time and then there's also um rich and poor right um especially the people

00:12:25.740 who work and are in you know working and struggling and one of the things you're going to hear reform

00:12:30.440 talk a lot about is unapologetically nigel is going to go out and say we're on the side of people

00:12:34.440 who set their alarm clocks in the morning and i spent a lot of time in run corn and hellsby you

00:12:38.460 know trying to get sarah or some ump elected and we're knocking on doors and some of the council

00:12:43.340 estates and run corn where people were working there and they would tell me to set our alarm we

00:12:48.780 work really hard and it just feels like we're getting a much raw deal a much worse deal than

00:12:54.640 people who are just living on benefits um and they have a much better lifestyle than us they have

00:12:58.940 more time in some cases they have more money literally they have more money in some cases

00:13:02.280 and then i talked to some people who work in the city who have really sizable household incomes you

00:13:07.100 might think well not too much sympathy but the work the phrase they keep using is the same why do we

00:13:12.520 bother you know even that well-paid couple in the city and i don't mind saying this i might not score

00:13:17.300 lots of political points but you know a couple with a meaningful six-figure salary in the city is

00:13:23.380 saying our relationship is fraying at the edges because we struggle to make time for each other we're both

00:13:29.420 working you know 80 90 hour weeks we've got two kids even we can even without formidable incomes

00:13:35.820 relatively speaking struggling to be able to send our kids to the school we want to go to and then

00:13:40.280 they see dubai and they see singapore um and they just see the relentlessness of the way money is wasted

00:13:45.880 um the relentlessness at which the welfare bill it just becomes easier and easier and easier to

00:13:51.180 basically live off people who are the labor of people who are working really hard and so of course there

00:13:56.180 are people who need benefits and you know all of that caveat right but this country is rapidly

00:14:01.360 becoming addicted to it the friction level required now post-covid and this is largely a function of

00:14:06.160 what boris did post-covid you see the numbers right um the the during covid a large proportion of the

00:14:13.460 country got addicted to benefits and long-term welfare including young people i mean it's one thing for

00:14:18.160 somebody who's 70 like my parents who by the way but still work um to be on benefits at 70 it's much

00:14:24.920 more of a catastrophe for significant percentage a higher proportion than ever of our 18 to 30 year

00:14:30.120 olds are on benefits a higher proportion than ever of our 18 to 30 year olds still live at home with

00:14:34.320 their parents forget about buying a home and getting on the housing ladder just renting a home is now out

00:14:40.440 of reach which is why as i said to the degree reform has the ability to turn the country around and we

00:14:48.460 think it does it means really focusing on those points we have to create a social contract that works

00:14:53.980 again between young and old um we have to get people back into work again raise the bar at which

00:14:59.320 point people get benefits in the first place and again you know there are still thankfully a lot of

00:15:03.820 people who work in this country more than enough to win a significant majority in the first past the

00:15:07.900 post system um you know the point even about immigration is most people in this country just want

00:15:12.820 fairness right they don't care about the color of your skin which god you pray to or whether you pray to

00:15:18.920 what they take great exception to is and i talked about this on question time i call it bond villain

00:15:24.720 levels of wickedness which is section 21 notices being handed out so these are forcible so basically

00:15:31.820 saying to a tenant you have to move out by the landlord to british tenants in some cases veterans

00:15:36.840 in one case i'm aware of somebody who's suffering ptsd as a result of the service they gave to this

00:15:41.860 country turfed out therefore so that that landlord generally corporate landlords can benefit from a

00:15:48.040 five to seven year tenancy agreement from circo five to seven years i mean i don't know if you rent but

00:15:53.500 most people aren't offering up no one can compete with that and then 20 to 30 percent above market

00:15:58.560 rates so basically free money to these people in an unholy alliance between circo for the most part

00:16:04.020 and yvette cooper no say let's just put a pin in that sorry to interrupt people will hear the word

00:16:08.920 circo and not know what that is what that represents what is circo so circo is a very very

00:16:14.600 large company and look i'm using them in this particular example like my view is there's only

00:16:18.920 so much anger you can direct a private company just doing what private markets would suggest they do

00:16:23.620 we should direct our anger at the politicians at the politicians who create this environment but

00:16:28.860 look circo is largely a government contractor right make huge amounts of revenue and profit

00:16:33.920 and do all sorts of things so you might see circo you know you might see a man in a helmet and

00:16:38.680 sort of stab proof vest taking money in and out of um of a building you might see them running

00:16:44.620 i mean right now outrageously they're running army recruitment so the government is outsourced

00:16:49.520 and this is part of a broader you know my new mandate is the biggest part of my job is this doge

00:16:53.720 project and one of the things that we have seen quite clearly is this addiction to just outsourcing

00:16:59.300 everything i mean if a country like the united kingdom is outsourcing can you remember what

00:17:04.020 winston churchill would say if he found out a private company like circo was now running army

00:17:08.820 recruitment for the united kingdom returning in his grave so that's what that company says they do

00:17:12.680 they do all sorts of things um which also begs the question how can you be an expert in carrying

00:17:18.140 money securely and army recruitment and i think it's actually only very recently they stopped being

00:17:23.260 in in charge of our nuclear deterrent so i mean pretty crazy crazy stuff um all the while by the way

00:17:31.060 so you might think okay they're outsourcing lots so they're reducing the size of the civil service no

00:17:34.460 no no civil service costs ballooning 50 over you know recent years at record high costs and this is

00:17:42.000 again when you go back to social contract i don't think i've seen no evidence from talking to ordinary

00:17:47.440 people that british people have a problem with paying taxes they don't and all the polling actually

00:17:52.640 shows if you ask me would you pay more tax to get waiting lists all the way they do it the problem is

00:17:56.740 that's not what happens you see endless demands that um more taxes paid quote how many times have

00:18:03.420 you heard politicians saying tough decisions need to be made and then you go back to the social contract

00:18:08.200 and i said this on question time the other day british people throughout history have had no problem

00:18:13.040 you know sacrificing for the greater good nor more than just paying tax laying down their lives

00:18:19.640 including as civilians and what we're seeing now though is endless stream of people coming across

00:18:27.480 the channel infinite money for that right no tough decisions need to be made there no tough decisions

00:18:31.500 just infinite money um then you see can i just stop you there the news moves fast and it's not just

00:18:38.300 about keeping up it's about seeing clearly in a world where headlines are constantly shifting and

00:18:43.800 narratives change by the hour understanding how a story is being reported is just as important

00:18:49.280 as what the story is that's why i use ground news it shows you how coverage of any story differs

00:18:55.840 across the political spectrum helping you break out of echo chambers and actually see the full picture

00:19:01.260 take the recent landmark uk supreme court ruling on the legal definition of woman using ground news

00:19:07.080 we can see that cnn which leans left ran with uk supreme court says legal definition of woman

00:19:13.320 excludes trans women the spectator which leans right led with the supreme court ruling

00:19:18.380 is a victory for women same story two completely different takes ground news makes these contrasts

00:19:24.940 easy to spot by letting you compare headlines at a glance it also shows you ownership information

00:19:30.220 like the ownership status of both cnn and the spectator my favorite feature is the blind spot feed

00:19:35.600 it surfaces stories being ignored by either the left or the right stories you might not even realize

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00:19:46.460 in the description or head to ground.news slash trigonometry for 40 off their unlimited advantage plan

00:19:53.200 the same one we use more than a million people have already downloaded the ground news app if you care

00:19:58.620 about seeing every side of the story join them today there's going to be a lot of people who are

00:20:04.400 listening to this not just in the uk but across the globe's here and they're going i don't understand

00:20:10.400 why it is that we had a brexit referendum on 2016 in 2016 which was effectively a referendum to lower

00:20:16.680 immigration we can dress it up any way we want but that's really what it was time and time again the

00:20:22.740 british voter has asked yeah that immigration be lowered significantly time and time again a conservative

00:20:30.620 government has said they're going to lower it and it just hasn't happened what is going on i think

00:20:37.500 you're being overly generous to the conservatives they didn't say they were going to lower it and it went up

00:20:41.400 they claimed in five consecutive manifestos that they were going to cut net migration to the tens of

00:20:47.360 thousands and left office with that number in a million and a million i mean you struggle even if you're

00:20:51.680 deliberately trying to do that to make that kind of thing happen and you know what what happened

00:20:56.820 under boris johnson was there was a sense of you know we're going to quote take back control you'll be

00:21:03.220 taking back control and just open the gates that's basically what they did and i think that's one

00:21:07.660 reason why there is so much anger now i think justifiably directed at politicians of both parties

00:21:14.000 right i mean i said you know labor are basically doing what the tories did just faster you might

00:21:17.640 have seen that meme right that's it worked and it is true it's just objectively true almost everything

00:21:22.540 that is appalling that labor are doing you just trace back you know chagos it was the tories who

00:21:27.900 started five rounds of negotiations to hand over um the chagos let's take law and order something

00:21:33.580 that's obviously i think a real focus for people listening to this program who will feel really

00:21:37.620 unsafe and the reality is that if you keep asking why the primary problem there is prison spaces we

00:21:45.380 don't have enough space in our prisons now you can debate about who's been put in those prisons

00:21:49.380 different discussion valid to have but fundamentally we do not have anywhere enough incarceration space

00:21:54.960 to house um violent criminals right and the tories over the 14 years they were in government grew the

00:22:02.360 population by 6.5 million net new people do you know any new prison places they built for that

00:22:07.160 411 now even if those people coming had the same propensity to commit crime which they don't they

00:22:14.280 have a high but let's park that let's just say even if they're the same anyone who's looked at any

00:22:18.960 social science right and cross culturally all over the world if you have a large population

00:22:24.080 a small fraction of that sadly will be violently criminal and a small fraction of that cannot be

00:22:28.900 rehabilitated just a reality so you have to have enough prison space similarly the nhs how many

00:22:35.140 hospital beds did they build they left the country with meaningfully fewer hospital beds and that's a

00:22:41.260 key reason why tens of thousands of people in this country wait more than three days in a&e

00:22:45.300 and imagine god forbid having to go to a&e and waiting three days i mean again that's a third world

00:22:50.780 statistic right if you heard about that you'd assume it's something on a on a charity fundraising

00:22:56.260 video i know people from ukraine who came here as refugees needed medical treatment and went back

00:23:01.640 to ukraine to get it because they couldn't wait i remember you saying that yeah yeah they went back

00:23:06.760 to war zone to get medical treatment i mean look we're laughing the reality is it's diabolical right

00:23:13.320 it's tragic we're laughing because it's dark humor yeah and it's why we're so exercised um by this and

00:23:20.280 and i talk to people who have suffered from that i mean i remember actually um you know listening so

00:23:26.440 i talked about some of my speech it was actually so to be fair this one i remember listening to a radio

00:23:29.860 show um it was a man who called in who said his mother was in his in her 90s who had paid into the

00:23:35.780 system their whole lives worked here went to a&e and didn't get seen for such an extraordinary

00:23:40.080 amount of time and then passed away um and it's like it was unbelievably moving and how on earth

00:23:46.600 is that happening when as i said asylum hotels hmos or infinite money i just tweeted out you know kent

00:23:53.520 county council is paying for tv licenses for asylum seekers right now look should this country aspire

00:24:03.140 to be a united kingdom that does do some foreign aid right that does have maybe an allocation of

00:24:07.860 yes the current state of the united kingdom is so far beneath a place where you know where any of

00:24:15.220 that should be even considered i mean another data point for you this country is actively as we speak

00:24:19.960 sending meaningful foreign aid to turkey and vietnam two countries which were in which the average 15

00:24:28.080 year old has a higher educational attainment in reading mathematics and science than 15 year olds in

00:24:33.920 wales and again you can't i don't see how you can look british people in the eyes and and expect them

00:24:41.060 to accept any of that and we're going to keep exposing this stuff um and we believe we do have

00:24:47.520 a real solution and which is what because yeah let's be honest and people like to pretend this is about the

00:24:53.420 political party in charge the reality of this is when you have a stagnating economy you're not going

00:24:59.100 to be able to have the things that you want and isn't that really why this is all happening well

00:25:03.620 so two things can be true at the same time right that you know the the pie is not growing and it

00:25:09.000 needs to we'll talk about that but that's the gift of politicians make no mistake i mean this notion that

00:25:13.700 this country couldn't be growing really fast it can and we'll talk about how that can happen but then

00:25:18.140 it's also how is that pie being spent right and in terms of the social contract i sincerely believe

00:25:23.140 even if labor said look we're eliminating foreign aid we've stopped the boat all this madness is

00:25:29.340 stopping right um but and therefore we're going to need to ask you to make some sacrifice it totally

00:25:36.140 it would be a totally different reaction taking the winter fuel allowance for british pensioners

00:25:39.760 away to save 1.5 billion and then announcing climate capture initiatives in foreign countries for

00:25:46.620 billions of pounds i mean it's like the it's like the square root of stupidity right and again

00:25:51.960 to a great degree people have just felt there was no alternative you voted for the dark blue team

00:25:57.060 you got the same thing you vote for labor you got the same thing just a bit faster what reform is

00:26:02.380 doing is offering thus far people are buying into this and that's why we had the may the first

00:26:08.140 results that we did historic set of local elections are seeing a viable alternative we've already we're

00:26:14.380 now in control of 10 councils i've spent most of my time since may the first with those councils and

00:26:19.840 you know the notion that there are immediate quick fixes for everything is for the birds but there are

00:26:24.220 some quite quick fixes right so you know as i said immediately saying we're not going to spend money on

00:26:29.440 these silly net zero projects um i mean i tweeted out yesterday let's take the nhs so net zero cost

00:26:35.080 the taxpayer 12 billion pounds directly from governmental budgets you can literally go on the departmental

00:26:40.380 website but the nhs has these insane rules so they are making their suppliers into the nhs which

00:26:45.600 obviously huge line item um reach net zero by 2040 not even by 2050 which is already mad and was just

00:26:52.220 concocted by you know a bunch of lunatic tory politicians without any proper debate um they're

00:26:57.520 trying to get them to do it by 2040 and over the next few years if you're not buying into those

00:27:01.980 demands that they make which are ridiculous um you won't even be eligible to bid for a contract and

00:27:09.100 again you know we talked about this just before we came on air none of this labor cabinet have any

00:27:14.120 experience of running anything meaningful making decisions what i call like systemic decisions

00:27:19.240 where second and third order effects matter the consequences of the consequences yeah we're not

00:27:25.480 far off labor just passing legislation that makes everyone a millionaire i think we're not far off

00:27:29.620 that kind of mad no i'm serious that sort of mad well a lot of people will be looking forward to

00:27:33.440 that yeah zia can i pick up on something else that you said because it's interesting you talked about

00:27:37.300 immigration and the native population and you said you know people in this country don't care about

00:27:42.540 your skin color don't care about background don't care about which god you pray to they're very

00:27:46.820 welcoming they were with your family and i think that was all true but i think we'd have to be honest

00:27:54.240 and i think you're uniquely placed to talk about this given your background is that there is a very

00:27:58.920 quickly growing concern about what you described as sectarianism but really there is a fear yeah that

00:28:06.240 as islam becomes a prominent force in society uh you start to see things that people are genuinely

00:28:12.880 very concerned about uh a lot of people rightly or wrongly i don't i'm not convinced that it's the

00:28:18.060 right link to make but link the grooming gangs to islam and we can talk about that but more broadly

00:28:23.160 you see five mps now effectively elected on on on a gaza ticket in this country uh you see that

00:28:29.740 sometimes they're able to force certain things to happen in parliament as we saw some time ago

00:28:33.840 and more broadly i think you anyone sensible would recognize whether they agree with it or not that

00:28:39.540 there's a rising sentiment of concern about islam across europe now including within many people within

00:28:47.300 reform so is it still true that people don't care about which god you pray to because i think quite a

00:28:52.980 lot of people are starting to so i think you're right in the sense that there is growing concern about

00:28:59.140 that i think justifiably um and the way you've seen government responses to that even if they're

00:29:05.840 well-intentioned you can debate that but they've not ameliorated the situation they're exasperating

00:29:11.560 it right uh exacerbating it and um you know so so you know the first thing i'd say is that

00:29:17.640 i was a vast majority of muslims in this country law-abiding peaceful people just going about their

00:29:22.340 day-to-day lives care about all the same issues as everybody else cost of living the cost of rent etc

00:29:26.640 one of the problems we've had is the sheer volume of number of people coming it's such a short period

00:29:32.580 of time so let's distill one issue is assimilation right um and integration which is not just failing

00:29:39.060 but i think has failed full stop in certain areas of the country um so so many people have come as i

00:29:45.420 said you know when my parents came in the early 1980s and obviously my parents are moderate muslims

00:29:50.380 um it was a very small number 25 to 50 000 per year you compare that to the 800 000 to a million

00:29:55.580 so numbers do matter because they reduce the you know the propensity to to assimilate and integrate

00:30:00.760 then you have the composition of the sort of people who are coming a the sort of countries

00:30:04.420 they're coming from and then the the people from within those countries that are coming this is a

00:30:11.740 country that is still in the privileged position in which people are risking their lives to come in

00:30:17.220 now you can debate about who those people are and why they're doing that but there are still many

00:30:21.180 people who do want to come here and just like a company that has you know people want to go and

00:30:25.240 work for open ai or for google they get to pick and choose the very very very best and they have

00:30:31.160 exacting standards this country under successive governments is literally the opposite right so you

00:30:35.740 look at what's happening where it is genuinely easier for a convicted murderer to get into the uk

00:30:42.000 than a nobel laureate in science right the convicted murderer just comes across in small boats and

00:30:47.640 they'll be put up in a um at the taxpayers time whereas a nobel laureate has to fill out enormous

00:30:53.400 amounts of bureaucracy and then still somewhat random so that's the first point and where that

00:30:59.720 really manifests itself yes is in you know one of the interesting things and i you know if i talk to

00:31:05.220 muslims in this country um and muslims in the uae or in countries in the middle east they say

00:31:11.260 some of the things that people are able to get away with in this country as a result of two-tier

00:31:17.100 policing for example and two-tier justice but let's talk about the two-tier police and one in

00:31:20.540 particular um do no favors for muslims like what well look so it is on record that for example if

00:31:30.060 there is a protest which involves largely muslims for example and they um they and let me really clear

00:31:36.140 the right to protest is sacrosanct in this country you know muslims have as much right as anybody else

00:31:40.880 obviously to protest right let's just caveat what i'm saying with that but if they're waving some

00:31:46.840 flag that is an isis flag or you know some that the uh an emblem of a prescribed organization

00:31:53.680 the directive given to the police is not to move in immediately and make that arrest but to watch it

00:31:59.940 on cctv and then have a discussion or a debate and then go and move to it with it afterwards and that

00:32:06.320 is ostensibly quite different to the way that other quote groups or communities um are policed

00:32:13.040 now that breeds resentment right and anyone who knows anything about psychology or let's say child

00:32:19.200 psychology and do you do you have kids i have kids yeah so one way for sure if you want to get a kid

00:32:24.220 bullied in class what do you do get the teacher to give them obvious preferred um preferential treatment

00:32:30.340 in front of the other kids puff like absolutely that will happen and so other people look at you

00:32:35.880 know muslims even look at this and go no we don't want that we don't want that sort of two-tiered

00:32:40.900 approach and again let's even give them the benefit of the doubt and say it's well intended and you can

00:32:45.960 debate that you can really debate that um because i do think there are some dark forces on on the far

00:32:51.280 left in this country that hate the country um but even if it was well intended it is having the

00:32:56.780 opposite of effect and and if anyone wants to make the counter argument what i always say is well how

00:33:00.260 do you think do you think it's some do you think people feel better about immigration in this country

00:33:04.640 today than they did in the early 1980s on average obviously not only do they think it's worse um they

00:33:10.880 think of it as orders of magnitude worse um so and and similarly if you talk to people in government

00:33:17.260 in the uae they'll tell you some of this stuff would absolutely not be tolerated inside inside the uae so i

00:33:25.540 think there's a great deal of naivety um it has meant that and look there's sort of let's call it

00:33:30.980 the far right slash islamist sort of uh opposite ends of that gaussian distribution do exist they

00:33:40.500 basically feed off each other in many ways i mean one experiment you can actually do if you're

00:33:44.400 interested to actually did this you create two separate x accounts and you start liking different

00:33:49.540 things you you start both ends of that distribution curve that kind of bell curve get

00:33:54.840 vicariously traumatized through their social media feed with people of the opposite ends of that

00:34:00.740 community and so there's a lot of people who are let's call it in the middle of that i don't mean

00:34:05.860 centrist dad way i just mean taking the view that no i think discriminate you know having a view writ large

00:34:13.860 about an entire religion or entire skin color whatever it is based on the actions of a tiny

00:34:20.120 subsection is not appropriate and unhelpful and actually again british values i think but i don't

00:34:26.620 think that's people's concern i think people's concern is to put it bluntly is that if um a as you say

00:34:33.680 correctly as a society we are tolerating things that that even muslim countries won't tolerate yeah

00:34:38.860 and if within the agreed the large body of most mostly peaceful moderate not mostly within the

00:34:46.720 large body of moderate peaceful law-abiding muslims which are completely true are in this country

00:34:51.380 is that islamist fringe that is tolerated by our society yeah then the more muslims you have

00:34:58.800 the more of the fringes you're going to have and if you already have 40 000 jihadis on your terrorist

00:35:05.680 watch list a lot of people are saying why would we so why why because i'm not saying you're wrong

00:35:12.860 but explain why there's a causal related so why would having more muslims necessitate more fringe

00:35:18.160 well if if you have uh if you buy a bunch of apples and you know that statistically one out of 100 is a

00:35:24.540 red apple yeah and you don't want red apples you only want green apples ideally in your society yeah

00:35:29.420 why would you want to buy more apples from that supplier well um i forget what so the red the

00:35:35.580 red apples were the islamists yeah okay so yeah so they should have been green

00:35:39.600 so okay so let's let's stick with your analogy so so firstly i think we've got to from a legislative

00:35:47.780 standpoint which is all you can do if you're in politics right number one we've got to secure the

00:35:52.700 border and freeze net migration for i thought initially like two or three years i think it's

00:35:56.840 going to be longer now certainly by the time if reform when you know it's going to be several years

00:36:00.760 away for a whole number of years right i think that does have to happen um so we have to stop the

00:36:06.420 we have to halt that for a significant period of time um so that that's the numbers issue the second

00:36:12.540 point is then is the competent composition and we always hear about point systems and stuff but we

00:36:16.920 probably don't even have time to get into it but as you start to peel back the onion of just the sheer

00:36:21.380 appalling incompetence maybe even malevolence of that boris johnson kind of regime

00:36:26.940 um in terms of what was happening there basically if you lied about your qualifications nobody asked

00:36:32.400 you for evidence and you got in so there were people coming here to be working care homes with

00:36:36.280 no qualifications they just lied and to the degree people did have qualifications they set the bar so

00:36:40.480 high into but not checking that they didn't feel like they would apply so in the end we got the worst

00:36:46.280 it was not a good period um for the country now i do think if people are breaking the law

00:36:52.660 and we obviously have laws around incitement and have laws around um prescribed terrorist

00:36:58.200 organizations those people need to be arrested and they need to go to jail and to the degree by

00:37:02.880 the way i mean this is the other thing reform will do we think there's north of 1.2 million people

00:37:06.700 here illegally in this country we're going to deport all of them deport all of them i want to be really

00:37:10.560 clear about that because you get all sorts of noise on social media our plan is to deport all of

00:37:14.080 them and we'll direct every instrument of state to ensure that that happens are you really

00:37:18.620 are you really because i've just come back from the u.s yeah president trump is struggling he's

00:37:23.840 rowing back on a lot of the things because the optics of deporting people who've been in the

00:37:28.920 country all of them someone's been here 30 years you're going to deport them so if they're legally

00:37:33.760 yeah so so we can talk about the deportation thing um i think the deportation thing is important

00:37:37.780 because it is a national emergency so if you look at again the social contract having such a large

00:37:43.120 population um that is here without the right to be here um and then claiming asylum and in many

00:37:48.880 cases getting it so number one there's the social contract thing that is just deeply unfair both on

00:37:54.480 the people who are already here and the legal migrants um the second point is you know you can

00:37:59.540 always talk about edge cases and look trump is i think is different thing i don't think there's a

00:38:03.180 good corollary to have because i think those protests are about a whole number of other things i think

00:38:07.980 my point is something else you're gonna drag 55 year olds who've been here since they were young

00:38:13.260 young men and women out of their houses and send them back to a country that they don't even know

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00:39:45.720 slash trigger and use code trigger so there'll be a whole the way it's gonna so number one there'll always

00:39:54.440 always be some edge cases for sure um but we're gonna do it in a way that um prioritizes um the rule

00:40:02.040 of law that's gonna be important um but yes i mean look to be direct about that yes if you are here

00:40:08.120 illegally i think that does need to be done and british people expect it and i think there's popular

00:40:12.760 support for that one of the massive issues we have in this country unlike the us actually i mean they have

00:40:18.360 their own jurisdictional issues between states and um the executive branch but we not only have the

00:40:24.200 echr but even leaving that is not going to be enough to stop the lawfare that keeps people in

00:40:29.000 this country you also have all these un treaties the refugee treaty of 1951 so there's a even if you

00:40:34.280 were drew from the echr for example and you'll see this when we publish our plan from a legislative

00:40:38.840 standpoint there's a law that says you cannot in any way uh discriminate against somebody's asylum

00:40:45.800 application just because they entered your country illegally and that dates back to 1951 when

00:40:50.200 obviously the world was largely most people were you know clambering overboard as illegals they were

00:40:54.920 still recovering from world war ii it's totally out of date and it means you have these ridiculous

00:40:59.400 situations where you have a kenyan convicted rapist who's not allowed to be deported because

00:41:03.800 he's an alcoholic apparently and he might have a tough time in kenya you have this insanity of his

00:41:09.240 quote unquote rights being prioritized over women in this country whose rights should be not to have

00:41:14.760 to live among such a person um we and when i say use every instrument of state you know people say

00:41:20.360 oh where are you going to send them etc you know we are still sending foreign aid to countries that

00:41:26.040 are refusing to even accept the people from their country who are languishing out in our jails and are

00:41:31.400 illegal immigrants so the foreign office one of the one of the things that will happen is nigel will

00:41:36.760 say to whoever is our foreign secretary it's your number one priority to secure bilateral return

00:41:43.160 agreements right and there will be a carrot and a stick right will we pay some people to leave yes

00:41:48.360 we will too right because to your point you know that that kind of enforcement aspect um is uh is is

00:41:54.360 we'd like to minimize that but you have to enforce it and constantin if we don't do that sort of thing

00:41:59.640 now i promise you the path the country is headed to will be far far worse yeah and look we we agree

00:42:07.720 with you on that the issue is here as well is that we have had many people on this show many people

00:42:14.040 concert former conservative ministers who will always make the point we have tried to do this

00:42:19.560 but we have been blocked by the civil service they have put spanners in the works they have slowed

00:42:25.160 things down they have made the process it's it's more subtle than people think it's not a downing of

00:42:31.560 the tools but it's putting something a spanner in the works to make it seem interminably slow so that

00:42:36.920 nothing gets done yeah how is reform going to challenge the behemoth that is the civil service

00:42:42.360 in this country which is largely left-leaning so in business you have a concept of low agency and

00:42:47.400 high agency people it's quite common parlance particularly in tech so the idea of it so a low

00:42:51.480 agency person if you're if you're a ceo you're a manager you ask them to do something and you don't

00:42:56.840 really hear anything and then three days later you go how did that go into oh i sent an email no one

00:43:00.680 responded that's sort of a low low agency a high agency person you give that same instruction to

00:43:05.240 and not only do they make it happen they negotiate some new contract to build a revenue line and a

00:43:10.600 pnl and they're like building something incredible kind of on their own and and then a lot of people

00:43:15.080 in the middle of that most of those people without even needing to name names um are very much on the

00:43:20.440 low agency spectrum and i'm sorry the buck stops with the politicians so long as we're part of the

00:43:25.080 echr which the tories are never going to be able to leave because the party's so split half the party

00:43:29.800 are left wing half the party are more spiritually aligned with us um and as i said even that won't

00:43:35.000 do the trick the only reason the echr the and the human rights act are cited by these judges um is

00:43:40.840 because it's the lowest hanging fruit as soon as you take that out there's plenty of other fruit for

00:43:44.280 them to pluck on in these international treaties so what we're going to do just to be really clear

00:43:47.400 about what we'll do we will disapply specific aspects in those treaties under uk law so even the

00:43:55.240 most activist judge you know even the judiciary people say well zeer you've got these activist

00:43:59.400 judges okay let's assume every single judge is an activist it is incumbent on the politician to set

00:44:04.760 laws that mean even the most activist judge can't screw the british people over the analogy when you

00:44:10.360 hear about the british government losing lawsuits it's like playing a computer game against someone who

00:44:15.640 gets to change the rules like that's a pretty cool feature to have so the buck has to stop with

00:44:20.200 the politician not going to claim it's easy but we have got a few years we've got some brilliant

00:44:23.560 people working on when nigel wins it's obviously our goal we need to have this is why i say we

00:44:28.840 can't just have a majority of two or do some pact with some wet tories you're gonna have 350 to 400

00:44:34.920 reform mps which i encourage you people listening is you've got to go out and vote for us because

00:44:38.360 we need that working majority constitutionally you know you use the analogy of the united states

00:44:43.720 the founding fathers were very particular about spreading power across the different branches

00:44:49.880 even the whole doge thing the reason why elon got so for so frustrated was not because doge fails

00:44:55.000 because congress basically decided to pass this massive bill and the founding fathers put the

00:45:00.040 purse strings in the hands of congress the constitution of the united kingdom means and it's

00:45:04.600 unwritten but the prime minister of the united kingdom flanked by 350 to 400 turquoise blooded reform

00:45:11.160 mps who are on no uncertain terms about why they were elected with the right legislation we'll be able to

00:45:17.080 move at great speed and this is the work that we got to do and i'm not claiming it's all done yet

00:45:20.920 this is the work that we're doing we've got some great people including some some actually some

00:45:25.320 formatory ministers who just want to help us in the background some people have had contact with the

00:45:28.600 blob let's call it the blob right and yeah of course they're formidable of course they're powerful

00:45:33.720 but if we're not willing to take that on and say yes um not only we're going to take it on we're

00:45:39.400 going to give him we we have to defeat them i i think that the idea that that is impossible i mean if you

00:45:46.040 take the view it's impossible then what's what's the point everyone should just leave um it can be

00:45:49.880 done it can be done with legislation you know i gave a speech you know a few months ago i gave a

00:45:55.800 speech in which i said i was really looking forward to the first phone call nigel will make us prime

00:46:00.120 minister number 10 downing street he'll pick up the phone to the first sea lord and instruct them

00:46:05.000 that not a single so therefore the royal navy's majesty's royal navy will ensure they're not a single

00:46:10.440 unauthorized vessel crossing the english channel will make it to our shores it'll be a humanitarian

00:46:16.200 mission etc gotta beat it and somebody i know who's very senior in the navy said see i love that

00:46:22.680 speech because what you realize is that all you have these mass all of these layers that just mean

00:46:28.280 that even if the home secretary or the minister of defense gives an order you have like nine layers

00:46:32.680 of bureaucracy and you only need one and i'm quoting him quote one little communist in there to

00:46:39.400 interject and go and tweet something which is basically what happened on the toys that said

00:46:42.760 this is again some law to see you know completely unaccountable to anybody to torpedo the whole thing

00:46:49.160 metaphorically um i just said listen i i thought it was a great line in a speech but the fundamental

00:46:54.920 point is that you have these layers of bureaucracy you have way too many of them the civil service is

00:46:59.960 way way too big um and you have a massive deficiency in ministers who are willing to take

00:47:07.640 accountability and ownership and be in the detail and be high agency enough to say no no no sorry who

00:47:12.680 was that who just tweeted out that the british people are now we're going to prioritize some

00:47:17.640 law that quote unquote law of the sea and i don't know who enforces this law or which military and the

00:47:23.560 people who suffer as a result of all of this nonsense and the perpetuation of the status quo as the

00:47:28.680 british people which is why i'm saying you know we talked about this just before the cameras started

00:47:32.360 rolling the only way these situations can be resolved is by extremely competent high agency

00:47:38.680 patriotic people basically going to battle in the political arena um and that's what reform are going

00:47:44.680 to do right and look you let's just be clear about this i don't think people actually understand i'm

00:47:50.920 going to use this word fucked this country is yeah we've been kicking the can down the road

00:47:57.080 economically we're in the the astronomic levels of debt that we are in the economy is only being

00:48:05.160 kept alive through mass immigration if we took that away we would actually see what a dire straight

00:48:10.120 we're in the health service is on its knees cost of living the home the the crisis the property

00:48:17.800 crisis homes crisis it's a message from the british tory exactly come and visit but you look at all of

00:48:24.040 these things i mean and what effectively every government has done for the last 20 or so years

00:48:31.480 is kick these proverbial cans down the road i mean if you get in that is one hell of a job and it's

00:48:39.240 going to be you're going to have to go to war with a lot of people can you fight all those fronts at the

00:48:45.320 same time we have no choice we have no choice and that's why as i said preparedness will be crucial

00:48:50.680 labor came into power with like no plan and i will say this is something that's quite new to politics

00:48:54.920 you know a lot of people say i can't believe labor in opposition for 14 years and they got in and they

00:48:58.440 had no plans like no no no now i've been in politics i actually understand that's just the status quo right

00:49:04.280 most people in politics and i've said this before are just most mps most westminster they're just power

00:49:10.120 maximizing them for themselves over the next 48 hours that's literally all they care about right and

00:49:15.000 frankly in a weird way i almost despise politicians a bit less because i realize that's what the system

00:49:21.320 almost dictates you have to do do you see what i mean it's like if you if you're not doing that

00:49:25.400 you almost just get unwound and chucked out so it's almost maladaptive but we have to fight against

00:49:30.840 that right so we can go through each of each of those i mean you you named it i mean absolutely

00:49:36.120 accurately national debt closing in on three trillion um economic growth and we were celebrating

00:49:41.800 0.7 percent gdp growth still less than the population is growing um not because lots of

00:49:48.840 british people having kids but we're getting poorer per head of population gdp per capita hasn't done

00:49:52.920 anything in a long time uh real wages adjusted for inflation have basically not done anything for a long

00:49:57.320 time so a lot of people feel poor all the time they because they are getting poorer um inequality is

00:50:02.600 getting worse and we talk about that too um and yes you know immigration is basically a form of

00:50:08.200 i call it human quantitative easing that's what it is right um and in the whole idea that we should

00:50:12.440 be obsessed by gdp instead of gdp per capita it's like saying oh good news and bad news the bad news

00:50:17.160 is your wages aren't going up but the good news is the payroll for the company is going up four percent

00:50:23.000 that's not particularly interesting to you so how do we deal with all of these issues again so number

00:50:28.520 one uh we have to shrink the size of the state in terms of all the bureaucracy and and just

00:50:33.800 the blob and the bureaucracy have become a parasitic and strangulation on the dynamism of

00:50:40.680 british and anything why we can't build any homes or why there's no nuclear in this country or why

00:50:45.880 you know you want to get planning permission to just do some work to your house it takes forever

00:50:49.880 um so that's the first point the second point is um we have to attract we have to make the country

00:50:57.160 which is a great country for people who want to start a business scale a business run a business

00:51:01.000 and be unapologetic about that we've got some policies that we're going to announce in in

00:51:04.120 in the coming couple of weeks actually to try to restore that social contract where we're saying

00:51:08.040 no look um yes we need to do we need to ensure working people in this country the bottom half of

00:51:13.400 working earners um get a much better deal but the only way this country recovers actually economically

00:51:19.240 is to welcome wealth creators in this country not to chase them away which obviously rachel reeds is

00:51:23.880 doing but you shouldn't forget it was jeremy hunt and the tories who started this whole rhetoric about

00:51:28.120 capital gains being quote unearned income and all of that stuff right um largely in many ways i think

00:51:33.480 out of guilt is a rishi sunak's wife i genuinely from what i hear i think that was like a really

00:51:37.480 meaningful um driver of their decisions around non-doms and it's like what a ridiculous what an insane

00:51:43.960 way to make policy but you know when i said about power maximizing yourselves over 48 hours

00:51:48.920 so that's that piece um i don't know if you touched on law and order but that's a massive issue

00:51:53.800 as well knife crime i mean you've got sadiq khan instead of implementing stop and search which all

00:51:59.000 the evidence in the world i bet all the money in my pockets if he did that properly it would

00:52:02.360 pretty much eliminate knife knife crime in within the period of months not doing that instead he's

00:52:07.240 offering free i've seen those stands where they offer like um stab response kits or something it's

00:52:13.080 really dark he's offering these it's unbelievable so they have these stands where they sort of give you

00:52:17.560 these kits a bit like you might have a first aid kit in a car um for if you get stabbed so this is

00:52:23.240 the level of normalization now that that is happening um a lot of people claim oh but see look

00:52:28.120 the statistics the crime statistics are going down well yeah because people don't even report crime

00:52:32.680 most of the time that's so true why would you bother reporting your phone getting reported it's true

00:52:37.320 people tell you i've looked i find my iphone i've gone to the person house who's nicked it i know it's

00:52:41.720 inside and the police still won't do anything shoplifting is basically legal now below 200 pounds

00:52:47.400 so we've got to do a whole number of things and that's what we're working we've got some great

00:52:51.640 policy people we're continuing to build that team um and working with some smart think tanks as well

00:52:56.360 to come in and have a you know how like trump did have you know we don't have executive orders in

00:53:00.840 this country but he got quite a lot done quite quickly um if we have the legislation ready to go

00:53:05.560 and we have a way to ensure that the lords doesn't hold things up i mean even the lords

00:53:10.120 constitutionally the lords are not allowed to hold things up if it was in your manifesto

00:53:13.800 and that's another thing we'll do very differently to for example labor you know we're going to be

00:53:17.480 very clear about what our plans are and people will either vote for them or they won't but i

00:53:22.360 don't think you have a choice if you want to enact a pretty transformative agenda and my god we're going

00:53:27.000 to for all the reasons you just mentioned i mean talk about living beyond our means i mean sometimes

00:53:31.640 we'll get criticized oh you're you're big state are you left wing or right wing all these tories

00:53:37.640 talking to us about scolding us and finger wagging about small state fiscal conservatism and living

00:53:43.000 within your means you don't know how these people have can say this stuff with a straight face they

00:53:48.360 triple the national debt to three trillion you don't have to slate the tories on this we absolutely

00:53:54.680 despise them okay but one of the things that people are going to be looking at you and going look

00:54:00.360 you're very slick you're very sharp you talk a great game i'm looking at reform you've got about

00:54:05.160 five mps at the moment you've had the scatter you've had the fallout with rupert lowe you've had when uh

00:54:11.800 the tweet that you gave which basically offered you immediate resignation there'll be a lot of

00:54:17.320 people sitting there going hang on a second they're at this stage of the game and they're already having

00:54:23.320 fallouts and at each other's throats how are you possibly going to be able to tackle all the issues

00:54:29.640 that we've put forward yeah when even at this stage it doesn't look like it's a particularly harmonious

00:54:35.720 group yeah so i understand that perspective um you know i'd say alongside those things which are true

00:54:43.000 um and objectively true and i accept we have also assembled the political party pretty much from

00:54:48.920 scratch over the course of the last year we've launched 450 odd branches we i've gone from 14 odd

00:54:55.400 percent in the polls a year ago to 31 32 in the polls nigel's now the bookmaker's favorite to be the pm

00:55:01.560 we've got a membership now of closing on a quarter of a million i think probably already

00:55:06.040 the largest membership in the country labour have now stopped even ever reporting on their

00:55:11.000 membership numbers unlike us who got them real time and so look and then we have made the first

00:55:15.160 which i think obviously were a spectacular set of results and we've gone from 10 councillors a year

00:55:19.960 ago to north of 700 now so look we're not perfect no not going to claim that we're perfect we're proud of

00:55:25.560 what we've achieved and you know what i will say i'll say a few things though and i don't mind saying this

00:55:29.480 stuff like in order to do the things that you just talked about we do need to be united behind

00:55:36.680 a strong leader just object i don't see what the counter argument is that and and the counter you

00:55:41.960 know if you want to make the counter argument i would point you to what the six leaders the

00:55:45.960 tory has had in like eight years while they were in power most of the you know i'd never met a tory

00:55:52.520 minister before i'd come into politics now i've met a reasonable number and some of them are good

00:55:56.280 people to be fair right and their hearts in the right place still low agency in most cases but

00:56:00.200 their hearts in the right place and you know most of them it's like how could you be the prime

00:56:04.440 minister of a country when everyone in your cabinet is not just wants your job but like wants your job

00:56:09.320 ideally this week and is actively working on making that happen it's like being a platoon commander and

00:56:14.840 finding out most of your troops are going to try and take you out on that on that own mission to do what

00:56:20.840 you just like with tech companies the the most valuable companies in the world are founder led

00:56:25.800 and i know you know jeff bezos isn't technically still the ceo but he still kind of is that is the

00:56:30.520 figurehead and obviously elon is singular you have to be united behind a leader secondly to the degree

00:56:37.080 that we've made errors and i include my own error in in that tweet totally accept that and own up to

00:56:42.360 that correct them quickly well just so people know you said that you were quitting reform because

00:56:47.880 doing that job was not a good use of your time and then you came back two days later

00:56:52.280 yeah yeah and i i regret the tweet yeah 11 months of largely pretty much no day off i mean even off

00:56:58.280 the elections and the only thing i say that is it just compromises your decision making yeah but is

00:57:02.760 it is it just that those here because i imagine i'm just guessing here just spitballing you correct me

00:57:07.880 if i'm wrong that you coming in with your business-minded high agency approach yeah into a relatively

00:57:14.920 volunteer-based new political party might rub a few people up the wrong way it might feel like

00:57:21.560 you're a bit direct you're a bit harsh you're kicking ass too much and not being gentle enough

00:57:27.720 am i in the right book well look um i don't have you pissed a lot of people off by trying to get things

00:57:32.200 done um so no i don't think that's true but i do think um so look number one i think the results speak

00:57:38.440 for themselves and i certainly do not take um sole credit for at all i was a part of making that i'm not

00:57:43.720 i'm not questioning the results i'm questioning you're right no no let me answer you are right

00:57:47.320 though in the sense that generally people in business who've had successful business careers

00:57:51.960 do not even last very long in politics let alone get much done right um i've always been reasonably

00:57:57.480 pragmatic though that obviously in politics it is about you know it's obviously not about profits or

00:58:02.760 anything like that but what i will say is i've always been a very results-oriented person i'm a

00:58:06.440 practical person um and i do believe this is a time-limited mission to save the united kingdom

00:58:13.240 and return it to being an amazing country and i make no apology for saying that there really

00:58:17.400 shouldn't be anything that gets in the way of that and that means that yes reform uk is a very high

00:58:21.640 performance organization um i think you know we've we've been outraged by the tories 10 to 1 over the

00:58:28.120 last year their team is much bigger than us labor's obviously not only got a much larger team than us

00:58:33.000 um but they've also got the whole apparatus of the government the volunteers have done so much to

00:58:38.920 get this party to where it is let me really care about that millions of leaflets because we've

00:58:42.600 literally got a portal they've they've purchased and distributed millions of leaflets throughout

00:58:47.560 throughout the last year um they knock on doors so grateful um to them but i make no apology for

00:58:55.000 the fact that you know we we had to be results on let's take even candidates i mean most people unless

00:59:01.800 you've done frontline politics and you built this thing and you you actually understand how hard it

00:59:07.720 is to field 1600 candidates from a standing start you know we talk about winning seeds so in may last

00:59:12.840 year the party only uh only fielded candidates in 12 of the seats 12 right and they won three or

00:59:19.800 something seats overall absolute number this year we stood in 99.8 percent more than any of the

00:59:26.680 other parties the first time in over 100 years that's happened and then we won 42 of the seats

00:59:31.800 with 32 of the vote share hence demonstrating first past the post the thing that was supposedly

00:59:36.680 frankly has been a nemesis for nigel over the years um now is working in our favor we're really

00:59:42.120 proud of that look am i perfect no um yeah have i made some decisions that in hindsight i wouldn't

00:59:47.480 have made including that tweet for example of course um but but we're very you know we have

00:59:52.440 assembled a political party largely from scratch we've got an amazing team we're going to compound

00:59:56.840 and build on that now obviously david bull's the chairman we're going to have a deputy chairman coming

01:00:00.680 in the team is broadening exactly as would happen in in any other startup but in the end it's about

01:00:06.760 the british people and we fight you know i'm a volunteer i work seven days a week i'm still doing

01:00:11.800 that i love what i do nigel gives up huge opportunity cost for him doing all sorts of other

01:00:17.000 things pretty much the whole reform leadership team are actually quite kind of reluctant politicians

01:00:21.640 if you see what i mean um unlike a lot of let's say even labor ministers that's the best job they're

01:00:26.120 ever going to get frankly right um and so it's about the british people this is a time-limited

01:00:31.960 mission you know to quote martin luther king jr it's the fierce urgency of now um and so we have

01:00:36.840 to get those results if we didn't imagine we just stood in half the seats which would still have been a

01:00:41.480 big improvement on last year game over right mission over tories recover maybe they beat

01:00:47.720 labor next time and we get the same thing again net migration at a million the country's screwed

01:00:52.440 well i guess see neither francis or i trying to like say you are a bad person or you've done bad

01:00:58.920 things or you've made mistakes but the concern i think for a lot of people is some of them linked

01:01:04.840 your brief resignation to the fact that you sarah pochin is it is that how you pronounce her name

01:01:10.520 she made a statement about burkas and even though you support banning the burka nonetheless you were

01:01:16.840 critical of that i guess what people are getting at is are you guys actually going to be able to get

01:01:21.640 along enough to to achieve results that's what i think people are asking i don't think anyone is

01:01:27.320 like oh these people are bad people it's more like are you going to be able to deliver results

01:01:32.280 and you know you talk about a strong leader i personally agree with that view but a strong

01:01:37.800 leader also has to be able to bring people along with them uh so are you are you are you actually

01:01:43.240 going to be able to to keep some semblance of order and agreement with yeah so so look so yes um

01:01:50.520 nigel is is a great magnet for talent i mean look i would say that you know so much people go nigel

01:01:55.560 can't work with big characters i wouldn't say i'm a shrinking viola i wouldn't say lee anderson

01:01:59.560 well you did leave after 11 months but then you know but i came back i came back very very quickly

01:02:05.160 and in no small part because you know i received so many messages dms emails from people telling me

01:02:10.920 how important the reform mission was and because of nigel it just reminded me how important nigel was

01:02:15.160 not that it's a one-man band but he is obviously the singular politician of our lifetimes without whom

01:02:19.960 i don't think would be obviously wouldn't be where we are and he's crucial we've got to make him the

01:02:23.480 prime minister in terms of harmonious look all i can say and i appreciate you guys take my word from this

01:02:28.280 but you're gonna you're gonna see it over the coming months i mean my relation with sarah is

01:02:32.040 impeccable i speak to almost every day i was instrumental in selecting her she's a formidable

01:02:36.200 woman exactly the kind of person that this country needs frankly i think in the highest offices of the

01:02:41.160 land she's been a magistrate for two decades again doesn't need to be in in politics is doing this out

01:02:46.520 of a real sense of duty making a lot of sacrifice to do it i worked as hard as most people to get her

01:02:52.360 elected um and since then as i said spoken to almost every day and i'm i couldn't be more proud

01:02:57.640 of of the work that she's doing i'm on the record in my views about the burqa so i'm gonna have a

01:03:02.760 discussion about it i totally understand why um there are many arguments to the contrary about

01:03:07.720 a ban and i've been favored probably of a ban of face coverings in general we come on to wine um

01:03:13.880 but you know we got a great the vibe is fantastic if you had come to the press conference when we

01:03:18.440 announced david ball anyone who's actually in that room you'll notice actually even the mainstream

01:03:22.680 media didn't really have any stories about lots of uh discordance because it was just obviously not

01:03:29.560 true i mean we're we we love working together um look of course we're gonna have some disagreements

01:03:35.560 by the way we will have disagreements um but people will see and the proof will be in the pudding

01:03:40.680 over the coming months and years um that we are a team you know the analogy i use i don't know if

01:03:45.720 you're football fans but i always use i like the analogy of prime barcelona right so you know

01:03:49.800 leonard messi obviously arguably the best player in the world and there was no prime barcelona without

01:03:56.840 messi but and let's let's create the analogy of leonard messi and nigel i don't know how many times

01:04:01.960 that analogy has been made but there was also no prime barcelona without xavi and iniesta and all

01:04:07.800 of these other incredible players around him and the proof of that is when messi went to other clubs

01:04:11.560 like psg they didn't win the champions league or really come anywhere close and i would use that

01:04:15.640 analogy with reform so of course nigel is the brightest star in our galaxy of course he is

01:04:20.840 he's going to outshine him because nigel farage i mean it's always going to be the case right um but

01:04:25.880 but we have formidable people not just in our incredible mps richard and james and um and lee and

01:04:31.880 sarah but also i can tell you as someone who is a pretty good you know i have an asymmetry of data on

01:04:37.960 this the caliber of people who are coming forward wanting to help us from a policy perspective in

01:04:43.400 the background in some cases for doge right now but also people who i think will put themselves

01:04:48.920 forward to occupy cabinet positions and you know let's take people i mean we have this crazy situation

01:04:54.680 i've always thought i spent a long time trying to diagnose the riddle of how does this country had

01:05:01.240 so many clowns as cabinet ministers why is it that the average cabinet in our lifetimes

01:05:05.480 has not just been not great but like a cadre of the most clownish incompetence you'd ever imagine

01:05:13.240 the kind that you would never walk into a fortune 100 company and see these people it's how we how

01:05:17.400 did we end up with matt hancock as our health secretary during the greatest health emergency

01:05:22.280 since world war ii literally cost i think hundreds of thousands of lives right i don't mind saying that

01:05:27.160 on the record um you have rachel reeves and ed miliband between them spending the majority of our 1.2

01:05:33.800 trillion pound a year budget i put it you could spend a decade scouring this country and find

01:05:38.120 two people less qualified that you would feel uh you know less at ease in terms of spending our

01:05:43.560 money and i've not met enough comedians but but you just pop out to the london circuit you get a lot

01:05:52.840 of you guys are comedians richard right and you've obviously become my case but on a serious point you

01:05:57.640 guys have obviously become really important voices and a lot of people take you very seriously i don't

01:06:02.200 want to embarrass you but take you very seriously as political voices in this country same in the us

01:06:06.280 joe rogan i mean there's lots of people cases of this partly because comedians tell the comedians

01:06:10.680 the only way they can be funny is by identifying truths right um so look i realized the reason is

01:06:17.720 is because in order to become and this is why the only way i thought the country could be turned around

01:06:21.480 is through a totally new vehicle like reform um it's because in order to become the leader of one of

01:06:26.360 these legacy parties the only way to do it is to buy off the the the most senior mps and the ranking

01:06:33.880 mps with the highest offices of the land and the people who get into those positions are not there

01:06:38.040 it's almost like an anti-meritocracy right merit is the you know in many ways what happens is a highly

01:06:44.200 um competent person what happens is a load of incompetent people coalesce together and get them

01:06:50.840 out and that works so again what we're focused on is as i said one step at a time continuing to build

01:06:56.680 our support saying things we believe to be true whether people you know and willing to you know

01:07:00.840 nigel people talk about nigel they claim is a he's a populist you know someone who spends i probably

01:07:06.280 spend more time with nigel than any other human over the last year and the interesting thing is never

01:07:12.120 once i can tell you there's a decision been made based on a poll right that's something we don't look

01:07:16.440 at polls we do but the decision is never made on that and the interesting thing with nigel is he's

01:07:20.520 actually built his career and continues to build to to lead the party based on conviction around

01:07:26.440 something he believes to be true and if the polls aren't there he'll go out and make the case to

01:07:30.840 the british people whether it was brexit whether it was um immigration but you know he was talking

01:07:34.680 you know that billboard with the word invasion on you're all the flack he got from that now this is

01:07:40.200 you'd have to go some to claim i mean look at the darren jones controversy this week on question

01:07:44.120 time so we're going to keep doing that it's not going to be easy it's a long way to go before the

01:07:48.200 next general election but i think a people are so disconsolate and feel so betrayed by the two old

01:07:56.200 parties but b i think we're doing a better and better job and we've got to keep doing this

01:08:00.680 at demonstrating to people that we are a viable alternative so zia let's go back to the conversation

01:08:06.600 about the burqa because to me it feels in some ways it's not just about that what we're actually

01:08:12.680 talking about is liberal values because the liberal values that we hold in this country are

01:08:18.600 you can do what you want say what you want as long as it doesn't affect me and that is your right as a

01:08:23.800 british citizen yeah i'm going to be honest i not particularly comfortable with the banning of it

01:08:30.520 because it infringes on those liberal values that i think make this country so

01:08:35.160 yeah beautiful and precious very few countries uphold those values but on the other hand and this

01:08:43.080 is where the balance of this comes in as we discussed earlier a lot of people feel that that

01:08:47.720 is a visual representation yeah of a division a lack of integration a lack of the ability for people to

01:08:54.920 connect with each other to hear each other to see each other and so i think everyone appreciates that

01:09:01.320 we're kind of in this moment when we'd like to preserve our liberal society but frankly if you

01:09:06.520 bring in lots and lots of people from cultures who are not liberal that becomes more challenging and

01:09:10.600 that's where the conversations are i think it's a thousand percent i mean i almost don't need to

01:09:13.960 say you just laid out the so what but you you we're just talking on a podcast you are actually

01:09:19.240 planning to do something about it so what's what's the plan yeah so let me quickly firstly reform

01:09:24.200 doesn't have the policy to ban it right now i'm just talking about my own personal view on this

01:09:29.080 and the reason why it was so interesting what you both just said there is yeah this is totally a

01:09:32.840 really difficult point it's a discussion that does need to be had i mean that's the first thing a lot

01:09:37.400 of policies don't even want to talk about it um i think it is authentically a real trade-off

01:09:43.640 situation between two really important liberal values right um so freedom of religion is a really

01:09:49.640 important tenet of english common law and a really important british value undeniable um but one has to ask

01:09:57.560 why um yeah and and talking about this isn't some far-right trope thing if i mean look france

01:10:03.560 belgium bulgaria austria denmark yeah but also uzbekistan turkmenistan lots of muslim countries

01:10:10.120 totally totally yeah obviously but i'm even talking about you know unless you believe belgium is some

01:10:14.600 far-right um there are a lot of people in the british media establishment who are only convinced by

01:10:19.480 the example of uzbekistan because they think france is evil and which it is but yeah so um sorry so

01:10:27.000 uh well they do need to start stopping those boats from coming but um but you know what's

01:10:32.040 interesting is that on the one hand yes freedom of religion is really really crucial i totally

01:10:37.560 understand the slippery slope argument because you know one of the things again the founding fathers

01:10:41.480 often talk about is when you're passing legislation you always have to consider this thomas payne

01:10:46.360 who first said it whatever legislation you pass will one day be in the hands of quote unquote your

01:10:50.520 enemy at some point god forbid a non-reform government might win and then how long before that same kind

01:10:55.560 of once you infringe on that what about a star of david or crucifix you know all of these awful

01:11:00.120 things could end up potentially so i understand that argument i really do secondly but on the flip side

01:11:07.160 you know social interaction in in the public sphere and that's what we're talking about we're

01:11:11.320 not talking about in the private privacy around home but in the public sphere in western liberal

01:11:15.240 democracies is facial it is that's how you eye contact these are really really important things

01:11:21.080 um and and and and you're right it is seen as something of a lightning rod and and sort of right

01:11:27.880 in the middle of that storm of discussion around assimilation and which cultures are are um are

01:11:33.960 compatible with this and again i think it's less of a religious point and more of a cultural point

01:11:38.840 there are many muslim countries which don't encourage that don't encourage or indeed ban it in many cases

01:11:43.880 um there is a security element to it and the notion that it isn't is this not true in tunisia i think it was

01:11:49.320 2019 there was a bombing by somebody um who was wearing one so there's an element of that too

01:11:54.840 i would say to the degree that i support the ban um it would be a ban on facial coverings in general

01:11:59.880 right including you know i've seen antifa thugs threaten nigel threaten our supporters knock the

01:12:05.080 tooth out one of nigel's security detail do you know how many people were arrested zero not a single

01:12:10.120 i mean think about that one of nigel's security detail former special boat service veteran had one of

01:12:15.400 his teeth knocked out by a mast on antifa thug no arrest um so i i do think that's important i don't

01:12:22.280 you know i would never support a piece of legislation that sort of targets a specific religion again i

01:12:26.920 think that's that's not they're not the right thing to do but i do think we have to start having these

01:12:31.400 discussions constantly and if we don't start having these discussions i think with sam harris who said

01:12:36.520 if reasonable people don't secure our borders unreasonable people will and whenever you think of

01:12:39.960 sam harris i think that is true and i think that if if reasonable people don't start drawing some

01:12:44.760 lines in the sand you have to listen to voters i keep saying this you know i went on so when i talked

01:12:49.000 to some left-wing people who just sort of say universally this is a liberal values okay well you

01:12:53.560 can keep saying that in your abstract philosophy class but if you don't listen to voters they will get

01:13:00.440 angrier and angrier and angrier and i can't blame them and so again what reform is here to do is say

01:13:07.400 again we're here to speak up for the people who feel like as you were pointing out earlier

01:13:11.320 who feel like every time they vote to reduce immigration or support their borders not only

01:13:16.040 did they get not get what they voted for they get the opposite of what they voted for and then

01:13:21.560 insulted i mean darren jones on question time sort of telling the audience and telling the british

01:13:27.000 people that the majority of the people coming across on small boats are women and children

01:13:32.280 i tell you if someone's sitting next to him you don't know how they identify

01:13:37.640 well the funny thing is the numbers are even by government statistics that's obviously wrong but

01:13:42.440 we know that these people throw their passports away and just make stuff up you've seen i've seen

01:13:47.240 i've seen sort of pictorial evidence as well of sort of clearly men in their fifth

01:13:50.760 with ball who are balding and receding airlines are apparently under 16

01:13:55.720 scarily i almost think that he in a weird way he almost believed it these people are utterly deluded

01:14:00.760 my sense was not actually that he was sitting there deliberately attempting to miss he just

01:14:05.720 doesn't have a clue and how you could not have a clue when we know for a fact you know we've been

01:14:10.440 talking about it being a national security much and i've just been talking about this for

01:14:13.640 for years right we now know that iranian men came across the channel and our security services

01:14:19.640 foiled a terrorist attack right so it obviously is and you know people say oh it's relatively small

01:14:26.360 numbers relative to legal number yes proportionally because the legal number is absolutely insane

01:14:30.760 but also we know nothing about these people the majority of them are men the real number we

01:14:35.880 think is is actually closer than 90 and in several periods it was actually even by government reporting

01:14:40.440 numbers up at that level so look we've got to start listening um to voters and again i say this as

01:14:45.880 a muslim to the degree that there is resentment building um against muslims in this country which it is

01:14:51.960 i think um that doesn't mean that this country is full of people who hate muslims but i don't think it is

01:14:56.680 but but but but that resentment is growing and the way you resolve that is not by continuing to

01:15:02.360 pass you know blasphemy laws and make it i mean again so imagine you're a teacher and you said nobody's

01:15:07.480 allowed to say anything mean to constantin over here i mean it'd be the worst thing you could possibly

01:15:12.200 hear right um so look again we've got to have real conversations about this stuff yeah uh and

01:15:20.440 speaking of um uh that one of the things that's obviously had a huge impact domestically even

01:15:26.360 though it's happening in halfway across the world is the war in gaza yeah uh and now the israeli strikes

01:15:33.400 on iran and the iranian response and so on what is the reform view of that conflict well the reform view

01:15:40.600 is israel's a crucial ally has the right to defend itself hamas is a terrorist organization um the war

01:15:46.600 would have ended very very quickly had they handed back the hostages um all of that it's obviously

01:15:52.280 true um i think britain has a in listening to this labor government i think they have an overinflated

01:15:57.800 sense of sadly britain's position and standing in the world i mean israel didn't even tell the british

01:16:03.400 government about these uh about the attacks they were about you have to ask why that sort of thing is

01:16:08.280 happening uh you know even the whole arms sales thing i'm a very practical person whatever your view is

01:16:13.000 on that okay you can say we're going to restrict arms sales all that will happen is throw you think

01:16:16.440 there aren't plenty of other countries queuing up to sell arms um to israel there's one of the few

01:16:21.080 areas we still have some potentially some ability to influence and to the degree we want more influence

01:16:26.200 over such things going back to the point about economic growth we need gdp per capita in this

01:16:30.120 country growing three to four percent a year over a sustained period of time we need to reinvest in

01:16:35.320 our military but also in a smart way i mean the way military spending is currently done is still for

01:16:39.800 like wars that happened decades ago because of the powers of a lot of lobbyists so that's our

01:16:44.760 view on that um now i don't mind saying that you just look at all the polling and the data on this um

01:16:51.240 my personal view is that i think the way in which israel has prosecuted the war i think it leaves much

01:16:57.160 to be desired in some look it's a really difficult one right because you know hamas are using um human

01:17:03.240 shields obviously i think that uh and there's obviously a lot of proper propaganda but if you just

01:17:09.240 look at the polling if you're a friend of israel's right as we are then you have to be able to say

01:17:16.440 things like losing popular support amongst a large number for example british people is not in your

01:17:22.520 interest um and so i think i think two things can be true at the same time and why why should we be

01:17:26.840 friends of israel well i think one of the reasons is because it has continued it has historically um so

01:17:34.840 number one that the concept of judeo-christian values i think is important i say this is a

01:17:38.760 muslim it is um it absolutely is so that's the first point the second one is israel has and is an

01:17:46.120 important strategic ally in a region which is very susceptible still to the scourge uh and kind of

01:17:53.400 overwhelmed by islamist forces it is true right um and you know things can change in the middle east very

01:18:00.520 very quickly um so so that that would be uh you know another reason it is the only democracy in

01:18:07.640 the middle east and you know democracy as churchill said is far from perfect in fact the worst form of

01:18:11.960 government except uh for all of the others um you know it's that it is a standard bearer in terms of

01:18:17.320 how it treats its own citizens in terms of um women's rights and freedom of religion all of those

01:18:22.440 things right so those are the reasons but again i i personally my personal view is that you know some

01:18:28.440 some sort of carte blanche i think in order to be a friend of israel so i do worry that you know look at

01:18:33.480 look at all the polling around younger generations with regards to israel it's like you know we can live

01:18:37.800 in a i'm a big fan of having difficult conversations right and the way that as those pictures keep

01:18:44.040 streaming in you know of just utter devastation inside civilian areas and again notwithstanding the

01:18:50.280 argument that they're using human shield it's like it's difficult in those instances when you're

01:18:55.080 looking at those images that are so preponderant and i get it that there's propaganda and some of

01:18:59.320 it's fake but the sheer preponderance of it suggests not all of it is fake um and i think that one has to

01:19:05.640 ask just as i would say the british military right um i think rsas are being persecuted for doing

01:19:11.880 their jobs as a result of echr insanity but i would say you know you know if reform is in government

01:19:19.640 and there was evidence that british personnel were acting improperly and illegally um and you know

01:19:26.840 doing awful things then you have to ask yourselves why are you better and i think that is an important

01:19:31.240 discussion to be had so again it's a nuanced discussion um we're great friends of israel and

01:19:36.600 everything i've just said comes from a place where i want israel to have support amongst the british

01:19:43.320 people see you it's been an absolute pleasure thank you very much for coming on the show final

01:19:48.520 question is always the same what's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be

01:19:52.840 before see answers the last question at the end of the interview make sure you head on over to our

01:19:57.400 substack where you will be able to see this i'm a reform member who is struggling to forgive the

01:20:02.840 extreme actions taken against rupert lowe do you think you owe him an apology for going to the police

01:20:07.800 how can we invigorate or reinvigorate a sense of national identity pride and and allegiance i think

01:20:14.760 as the world changes it becomes more threatening we're going to need it i think it's uh ai and energy

01:20:21.800 so uh as someone who's a tech entrepreneur these frontier ai models are already um so advanced that

01:20:28.600 they are i think more powerful like powerful enough to displace a large large percentage of white

01:20:33.480 collar jobs britain is a service industry all the models that are used in the uk at the moment are

01:20:38.760 basically used from american companies i think the speed at which these things are improving there's

01:20:45.160 obviously the chinese and the and the americans at some point it is logical that those countries will

01:20:52.520 say no we're just going to keep the best models the most advanced ones for ourselves no one else gets to

01:20:57.000 use them we don't really have any of these gp data centers where they put all these nvidia kind

01:21:02.600 of basically the supercomputer clusters that cost a lot of money are built one of the reasons is we

01:21:07.000 have insanely high energy costs the most expensive energy costs in the world um and to give you some

01:21:12.440 context of how fast we are falling behind in this country as a result of madden milliband and boris and

01:21:17.320 all these guys china is installing the equivalent of the entire fleet of energy capacity in the united

01:21:24.280 kingdom every two to two and a half months

01:21:28.520 right and and so ai are the new nuclear weapons right they are it is an absolute if we carry on

01:21:36.760 the way we are for the next 15 to 20 years and this is why i keep saying like before me to win

01:21:42.120 we will basically become i think a vassal state of the ccp under some sort of horrific eye of sore on ai

01:21:48.600 capable and this is not i mean this is where we are headed what do you mean by that because there's

01:21:53.800 a lot of people who don't know lord of the rings who are just like or yeah yeah well so so ai so

01:21:58.680 so historically being an authoritarian regime was actually quite costly to like spy on everybody you

01:22:04.440 know what everybody's saying like with ai it collapses the cost of authoritarianism right so you

01:22:09.800 could have a camera up there that is able to know us by our faces exactly what we're saying you know

01:22:15.240 those ai note takers that you go on zoom and you're like how the hell did it do right so ai massively

01:22:20.520 reduces the cost basically collapses the marginal cost of authoritarianism um and if we don't have

01:22:27.080 our own data centers with these gpus low energy prices to be able to power them will number one be

01:22:32.840 totally open to cyber attacks um my view is it's obvious from what trump is doing that they're becoming

01:22:39.240 more protectionist um and because britain is focused despite being less than one percent of global

01:22:44.920 emissions and china producing 4.7 billion tons of coal last year mad and miliband's running around

01:22:50.680 you know trying to make us basically a poor country by having all these high energy costs it means

01:22:57.320 it is totally economically inept to try to open these dentist centers in the uk so we should be

01:23:02.200 investing heavily in building up that capability a as a form of defense but also unlike nuclear weapons

01:23:09.240 there is a positive use for these things um in order to deliver value for british people i think you

01:23:14.680 would automate away a lot of the uh civil service i think you'd be really helpful in areas not not

01:23:19.720 exclusively ai for the nhs but i mean my brother's a radiologist a consultant radiologist and already

01:23:25.400 you know these large language models have surpassed like you know human radiologists at scale so

01:23:31.320 that's something that i think is a not being talked about b has the prospect to totally change the face

01:23:38.520 of society and politicians are i mean to say that they're asleep at the wheel would be being kind

01:23:42.600 head on over to our sub stack where zia is going to answer your questions will you reach out to elon

01:23:50.360 for intelligence gathering on the do's and don'ts of heading your own doge or has his recent posts on

01:23:55.720 x against trump made him too untrustworthy even though you openly admire his entrepreneurial approach to

01:24:01.240 leadership

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TRIGGERnometry - June 18, 2025

Zia Yusuf - I Make No Apologies For Trying To Save Britain

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