TRIGGERnometry - Zuby on Positive Rap, Identifying as a Woman and White Privilege

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantin Kissen. And this is a

00:00:11.120 show if you're bored with people arguing on the internet over subjects they know nothing about.

00:00:16.640 At Trigonometry, you don't pretend to be the experts, we ask the experts. Our brilliant guest

00:00:21.840 this week is a professional rapper, creative entrepreneur and podcaster, Zuby. Welcome to

00:00:27.140 Trigonometry. What's up? How you guys doing? Hey, man, it's good to have you here. Listen, before anyone who doesn't know who you are, tell us quickly what's your story, how are you, where you are, what's been the journey that has you sitting in this chair?

00:00:37.980 Okay, let's do it. So I am Zuby. I'm an independent, professional, full-time rapper and creative entrepreneur. I, wow, I'm from a lot of places. I was born in the UK. I grew up in the Middle East and Saudi Arabia, lived there for well over a decade, went to school there for a while, went to an international school, hence the

00:00:56.740 hybrid American-British accent. I then went on. I went to boarding school in the UK. I went to

00:01:01.980 Oxford University, studied computer science there, graduated, worked in London, corporate job for a

00:01:07.080 couple of years whilst juggling my music career on the side. I started making music when I was

00:01:11.060 in university. And in 2011, I went to pursue my music full-time, left my full-time job, and I've

00:01:17.760 now been doing music and a couple other creative bits, including my new podcast, Real Talk with

00:01:22.740 Zuby. Yeah, now I've been doing it full time for over seven years. So here we are.

00:01:28.280 It's good to have him. And there's so many things we want to talk to you about because

00:01:31.060 you've been in the news and there's been other stuff going on. But maybe let's start

00:01:34.700 by talking about rap because one of the things I really like about your music is you have

00:01:37.840 a very positive message. You don't talk about, you know, gangs and all that kind of stuff.

00:01:42.820 Is that a conscious decision on your part?

00:01:45.620 Yeah, somewhat. I mean, my music reflects me. I'm a very educated guy from a relatively

00:01:51.580 privileged background, which is, you know, not the typical hip-hop rapper story, so I don't ever try

00:01:57.440 to represent myself as anything that I'm not. There's a lot of negativity out there in the world,

00:02:01.720 not just in music and entertainment, but just in a lot of the messaging and in the way a lot of

00:02:06.080 people are and the way people behave. So with me, I just always try to be authentic. I don't try to

00:02:10.460 add to the negativity. I want to put a message out there that is positive, that's inspiring, that

00:02:14.580 motivates people. When people hear my music, when they're listening to my tracks, the best feedback

00:02:18.860 I can get is, man, that motivated me, that inspired me, I hit the weights harder in the

00:02:23.380 gym, it made me go and pursue that job or pursue that dream.

00:02:27.140 So that's what I'm trying to do for people, I want to be a positive light.

00:02:29.900 I also want to keep it completely real, you know, I like to be very honest and authentic

00:02:34.000 in both my music and the way I just am and the way I treat people in general, but I want

00:02:39.720 to do it in a way that's positive, yeah.

00:02:43.360 And so you're talking about positivity and rap because a lot of hip hop music, you know, especially gangster rap.

00:02:50.960 It's about negativity. It's about violence. It's about gang culture.

00:02:55.180 How much responsibility do you think these artists have to their listeners?

00:02:58.780 Or do they not have any at all? And they're just simply telling their truth.

00:03:02.440 Well, I think that everybody I think this goes beyond music.

00:03:05.020 I think that everybody has a responsibility in how they conduct themselves and the message that they put out there to the world.

00:03:11.620 I think once you're a grown adult, I mean even as a child, but certainly as an adult, whether or not you want to be a role model, especially if somebody is a public figure, you're going to be a role model kind of by default.

00:03:23.820 It doesn't necessarily mean that that's who children should be looking up to.

00:03:29.060 Like a child certainly shouldn't be having a rapper as their prime role model in life.

00:03:35.740 No, I mean, you know, it sounds obvious, nor should it be an actor or a sports person, right?

00:03:40.080 But in a perfect world, it should be their parents, family

00:03:43.180 members, older brother, whoever it is, family, teachers,

00:03:47.020 people around them.

00:03:47.940 That's really what it's for.

00:03:49.380 So I certainly don't.

00:03:51.820 So there's always that sort of argument

00:03:53.320 about how much responsibility should

00:03:56.220 be on rappers or musicians versus other stuff.

00:04:00.380 Because on one hand, I do think that there

00:04:03.060 is a responsibility, just like I said, as an adult.

00:04:06.240 But at the same time, it's also not

00:04:09.020 that argument where something bad will happen

00:04:10.900 or people behave in a negative way

00:04:12.720 and people try to blame it on music or video games or movies.

00:04:15.800 It's a much more nuanced conversation than that.

00:04:18.260 Like a lot of things, people try to make everything black

00:04:20.380 and white and very binary.

00:04:22.280 But I think coming back to that first question you asked me,

00:04:25.820 you said my music is very positive and it inspires people.

00:04:29.780 And I know for a fact it inspires people

00:04:31.260 because I've spoken to people it's inspired.

00:04:33.720 So it wouldn't make any sense to say that music

00:04:36.200 can have a positive influence, but it's

00:04:38.300 impossible for it to have a negative influence.

00:04:40.860 You see what I mean?

00:04:41.780 So there obviously is a chicken and an egg thing.

00:04:47.600 A lot of rappers who rap about gangster stuff

00:04:49.340 will say, I'm just rapping about my life,

00:04:50.900 or I'm documenting what's happening in the streets,

00:04:52.920 or whatever, which can be true.

00:04:54.740 But there's a line between documentation and glorification.

00:04:59.840 And I'd be lying if I said that there are not certainly

00:05:02.540 artists, some artists, who are trying to make it sound really

00:05:05.080 cool to go out and kill people or sound cool to take drugs

00:05:08.140 or sell drugs or whatever the case may be. 0.96

00:05:10.840 So in my personal opinion, that's

00:05:12.320 when it kind of crosses that boundary.

00:05:14.140 But perhaps a better question might

00:05:15.800 be, why does it appeal to people?

00:05:19.080 What is it that makes that music sell?

00:05:20.840 Because people are only going to supply what people demand.

00:05:23.580 So maybe a better question is, why

00:05:25.240 are we drawn to violent lyrics, violent video games,

00:05:28.380 violent films?

00:05:29.840 Why are we drawn to all these things?

00:05:31.280 I think that perhaps might be a better question, which nobody

00:05:33.500 ever seems to ask.

00:05:34.900 I love how you just criticise that question. 1.00

00:05:36.900 He's like, yeah, that was a shit question, guys. 0.99

00:05:38.880 Ask me a better question next time. 0.99

00:05:42.080 All right, Zuby.

00:05:43.540 So what does draw people to Violet Verrat?

00:05:47.700 But it's everywhere, isn't it?

00:05:48.920 It's films.

00:05:49.620 And I don't know, tell me what you think.

00:05:51.400 I guess part of that is that we are drawn to things

00:05:54.940 that we don't ourselves necessarily experience in our own lives.

00:05:57.760 So we're kind of living through someone else.

00:06:00.200 You know, like when we watch a movie about someone taking revenge with a gun,

00:06:03.780 And I would never go out and do that.

00:06:05.960 But I have thought about it.

00:06:07.040 Of course, you're rushing.

00:06:08.060 Yeah.

00:06:09.520 The racism has begun, guys.

00:06:13.140 I'm seeing you with your novichoke.

00:06:14.840 I'm hanging around Costa Coffee.

00:06:17.300 Yeah.

00:06:18.020 I think that's a factor.

00:06:19.280 I think the true reason is a bit deeper and darker.

00:06:23.000 I think human beings, particularly guys.

00:06:26.800 We're all men here.

00:06:27.700 We're all males, you know.

00:06:29.160 There is something in our brain.

00:06:30.960 Yeah, I know.

00:06:31.380 I'm assuming everybody's gender right now.

00:06:33.780 I know, sorry, I'm such a bigot.

00:06:36.780 I think there's something innately in us

00:06:40.020 from an evolutionary perspective

00:06:42.840 that is wired for sex and violence. 0.92

00:06:47.100 And the reason for that is obvious,

00:06:48.800 because in terms of survival,

00:06:50.920 we've always needed these two things.

00:06:52.780 And it's very recent that we're actually

00:06:55.740 living in a relatively peaceful, stable society.

00:06:59.780 Look at the last several hundreds, thousands of years.

00:07:02.780 Met have always been going to war. 0.74

00:07:04.080 We've been going to war.

00:07:04.900 We've been, met have been pillaging and, you know, reproducing and just that's kind of been the way forward.

00:07:10.840 So it's like now we live in a very, fortunately, a very safe, stable, civilized society. 0.96

00:07:18.120 But I still think, you know, you've still got that thing in your lizard brain.

00:07:22.340 It's kind of like a very primal thing that is drawn to violence or sex or whatever it might be.

00:07:29.260 And you'd obviously don't want to manifest that in a negative way, but I mean some people do that and we call them criminals

00:07:36.140 Right there are people who go out there and do horrible things

00:07:38.400 But I think that you know if you're playing a violent video game

00:07:41.300 And you're you're shooting people up in the game or you're playing GTA and chucking people out of cars and do it doing all this stuff that you wouldn't

00:07:47.740 Dream a dream of doing in real life. I think it's kind of satisfying that that innate craving

00:07:52.760 Yeah without actually doing anything that's gonna have a negative impact on you or on society

00:07:58.240 So that's my kind of theory.

00:07:59.560 I think the same goes with listening to really aggressive music.

00:08:03.280 I think the same goes with watching action films

00:08:06.180 where stuff is just blowing up

00:08:07.820 and people are doing all kinds of stuff to each other.

00:08:10.260 I think it's all kind of the same.

00:08:12.440 So you're saying it's essentially cathartic.

00:08:14.780 Yeah, exactly. That's what I think.

00:08:16.700 And Subi, where do you stand on the whole free speech thing

00:08:19.500 when it comes to rap music?

00:08:20.800 Do you think it's ever acceptable?

00:08:22.440 Because there were two grime artists recently

00:08:24.920 who were arrested and all the rest of it for their lyrics.

00:08:29.580 Do you think it's ever acceptable to arrest people for their lyrics

00:08:32.460 or to ban people from platforms like YouTube?

00:08:36.200 Or do you think ultimately it is free speech

00:08:38.420 and everybody's entitled to it?

00:08:41.240 Well, I'm essentially...

00:08:42.760 I'm pretty close to a free speech absolutist.

00:08:46.140 That doesn't mean I approve of all speech,

00:08:48.760 hopefully needless to say.

00:08:50.760 No, no, you need to say that nowadays, dude.

00:08:53.000 There's kind of a couple questions there in terms of should platforms be able to

00:09:00.340 You know should we be able to take someone's video off YouTube or song off YouTube? Yeah, YouTube has a right to do that

00:09:05.460 Private company, you know if if someone's putting out some

00:09:08.520 It's just like you can't put a video out of someone getting murdered on YouTube and post it up

00:09:13.000 But you know they're gonna take that down you can't put up porn on there

00:09:15.200 They're gonna take that down so YouTube already does have

00:09:18.300 Content restrictions and guidelines which is fair enough like they can do that in

00:09:22.320 In terms of the police and justice systems getting involved in stuff,

00:09:28.560 generally I think musicians and everybody should essentially have complete freedom of speech.

00:09:35.120 Of course, freedom of speech does not cover genuine calls to violence.

00:09:41.460 It doesn't cover genuine credible threats towards individuals or groups and things like that.

00:09:47.740 So there is like a very small, tiny percentage of stuff that's like, okay, that's going beyond the bounds.

00:09:55.420 But outside of that little, tiny segment, I would be hesitant of saying that there should be any kind of censorship or restrictions or anything like that.

00:10:05.300 Because with these things, it's always like, well, who sets the rules, right?

00:10:09.400 Offense is very subjective.

00:10:10.800 As we all know, you guys are comedians.

00:10:12.780 So what's offensive to one person is not offensive to another person.

00:10:16.280 And if you have a big enough audience, you're always going to have someone who's offended by something and you know

00:10:20.960 You know when you don't have a right no none of us have a right to not be offended

00:10:23.940 That's not a that's not a right the freedom of speech trumps the freedom

00:10:27.320 Sorry that yeah the right to speech

00:10:29.540 Trump's the right to not be offended because there is no right to not be offended

00:10:33.600 You know you don't want to go around living your life and just being being cruel and offensive to people for

00:10:39.660 No good reason you're probably gonna get punched, but um, I don't think many people would want to do that anyway

00:10:45.940 think I think when people talk about um an absolute right to free speech people

00:10:49.900 always panic because they're like oh they jump to really like fringe crazy

00:10:53.560 cases yeah and you're kind of like well no someone can't call for someone's

00:11:00.640 execution or harm to be done with someone because that does cross into

00:11:04.120 criminality and I'd say with music yeah it's just the same rules should cover it

00:11:08.740 really well let's move on a little bit because as I said you have been in the

00:11:13.240 news recently and it's it's an interesting thing so to tell everybody we'll put the clip into this

00:11:20.240 episode so people can see the video but just describe it describe what you did and why you

00:11:25.240 did it yeah okay so on the 26th of february uh it's just a normal day i was actually in darby

00:11:30.740 running a pop-up shop at the time for my music and such a hipster oh yeah he comes in he's got

00:11:38.980 I was running a pop-up shop

00:11:41.860 Were you eating a falafel wrap as well

00:11:44.180 No, no, no, never that

00:11:46.040 I've got to make my money, man

00:11:48.740 I'm an independent artist

00:11:49.600 I'm sorry, just the words

00:11:52.960 A pop-up shop

00:11:53.900 I don't think most hipsters even have pop-ups

00:11:58.220 Maybe they shop at them

00:11:59.700 I think Zuby is the opposite of a hipster

00:12:01.820 Except the beer

00:12:03.580 Nah, man, he's going to go out

00:12:05.760 He's going to get a vegan

00:12:06.580 bad boy. He's completely ethically sourced cookie. Sorry, carry on. Gender neutral gingerbread 1.00

00:12:15.000 person. What was I saying? So I posted up a nine second clip of me doing a deadlift in

00:12:21.580 the gym just in one of my training sessions and I tweeted it out with a caption saying

00:12:27.200 I keep hearing about how there's no biological strength difference between men and women

00:12:31.020 so watch me destroy the British women's deadlift record without trying and then I wrote P.S.

00:12:36.580 I identified as a woman whilst lifting the weight and don't be a bigot. I think the PS is really what did it, you know

00:12:42.620 And it caught fire within I want to say within about 20 minutes

00:12:47.400 It had 10,000 had over 10,000 views within a couple hours. I hadn't broken 100k

00:12:52.680 I was literally looking at my phone and the retweets and likes were just just flipping up in real time

00:12:57.800 Yeah, by the time I went to bed that same day. It had done over 300,000 views. I was seeing it

00:13:02.380 I was seeing people commenting and all these different languages

00:13:05.280 So it was going into all these different spheres of Twitter.

00:13:07.800 I saw it get retweeted by some massive accounts that had like 500,000 plus, 1 million plus followers.

00:13:14.280 And it just went nuts.

00:13:16.340 I woke up the next morning, over half a million views.

00:13:19.060 And in total, the original video is now at 1.3 million views.

00:13:25.680 Some of the interviews I've done have over a million views.

00:13:28.860 I did an interview with RT with 2 million views on YouTube.

00:13:32.200 did one with Ben Shapiro which has got like 350 K and then Tucker Carlson on

00:13:40.180 Fox News talked about it Pierce Morgan on Good Morning Britain talked about it

00:13:44.880 and showed the video it was covered in Sky News Australia and then one of the

00:13:50.060 big ones that a lot of people noticed was on the Joe Rogan experience on his

00:13:53.440 episode without Brian Callen they had like a five-minute section like a five

00:13:57.820 minute section on it where they pulled up the video and they were laughing at it

00:14:00.940 and Joe shouted me out and followed me on Twitter

00:14:03.320 and announced it to the audience in real time as well.

00:14:07.260 So, yeah, Rogan now follows me on Twitter

00:14:09.080 and sent me a message thanking me for the video.

00:14:11.580 And, yeah, it's been insane.

00:14:13.820 It was featured on BBC One, BBC Radio One, BBC Solent,

00:14:19.100 BBC Oxford, The Daily Mail, loads of places in the USA.

00:14:24.020 So why do you think it got such resonance?

00:14:26.040 Why do you think it got so much purchase?

00:14:27.620 Why did so many people seem to think it was either funny or relevant?

00:14:30.940 or topical or whatever yeah well i think the i think the timing of it i think the timing and

00:14:35.340 the execution lined up far more perfectly than i uh imagined when i first tweeted it out i mean i i

00:14:41.900 put out probably 50 tweets a day so i didn't think that much of it when i did it i was just like okay

00:14:47.260 my followers will probably find this quite funny and i had 19 000 followers at the point i tweeted

00:14:51.260 it i've now got over 40 000 so i've gained like across the board i've gained over 25 000 social

00:14:56.860 media followers just in the past month which has been kind of crazy but um yeah because so the

00:15:02.920 reason i tweeted initially was because over the last couple of years i have seen this rising trend

00:15:07.820 of biological men claiming to be women or saying they're transgender and competing against women

00:15:12.180 in sports it's happened in mma in wrestling and athletics and weightlifting in handball football

00:15:17.180 loads of different sports and several years ago i was telling people in private that this is going

00:15:23.560 to happen because there's no reason for it not to. If someone is going to say that this is the

00:15:28.180 women's league and have an asterisk next to women and say by women we mean anyone who identifies as

00:15:32.960 a woman, then why would a man not, especially if there's an incentive, why would you not have men 1.00

00:15:41.020 or boys starting to compete in that because they're obviously going to have a physical advantage. So

00:15:45.260 I'd seen that happening. There had been some really recent stories last month. I think in

00:15:49.660 some high school in America there was an athletics race and the people who came

00:15:53.620 first and second were both biological men and this is the girls race there were a 0.99

00:15:58.900 lot of questions with it around the Olympics I didn't realize quite how big

00:16:01.660 and how global the conversation was until after this thing went viral I was

00:16:05.800 kind of like oh wow this is a bigger debate that more people are more

00:16:09.520 passionate about than I initially realized but I think the video I think

00:16:13.780 One, because it displayed both the strength differential,

00:16:20.400 because it's important to keep in mind that video,

00:16:23.160 when I say I wasn't trying, I mean, I actually wasn't trying.

00:16:25.620 That weight wasn't heavy for me.

00:16:26.920 All right, mate, chill out.

00:16:27.860 No, no, no, it's a heavy weight.

00:16:30.060 Rises is just jealous.

00:16:31.860 Look at him.

00:16:32.380 Look at him. 0.98

00:16:33.240 I just got to give myself an aneurysm and die.

00:16:35.940 But the point is, I'm not a professional powerlifter.

00:16:38.300 There are plenty, there are guys who can lift

00:16:40.560 several hundred kilos more than I can.

00:16:42.780 Wow.

00:16:43.060 Okay?

00:16:43.220 All right there. I'm not I'm just a I'm a rapper who happens to go to the gym a lot

00:16:47.040 So I'm stronger than the average person

00:16:48.840 But um the fact that someone like me can just stroll in the gym on any given day and beat all the women's 1.00

00:16:55.360 records and

00:16:57.040 You know that's um that should show people because I do genuinely think there are some people who don't realize quite how big

00:17:02.860 Especially people who don't train people don't go to the gym. They don't realize just how much stronger men are

00:17:08.260 compared to women 0.92

00:17:09.780 especially at higher levels, once you've had some training in.

00:17:13.640 I mean, it can be double, triple, quadruple the strength

00:17:17.780 in some cases.

00:17:20.460 And then in strength, and then in speed stuff,

00:17:22.860 it's typically about 10% to 12%.

00:17:24.340 So there's a reason you separate men's and women's sports,

00:17:26.540 and everyone's always known that.

00:17:27.860 And it's cool, right?

00:17:29.020 You do that so that you can have women competing, 1.00

00:17:31.220 and you can have men competing, and that's always been fine.

00:17:34.620 That's what people have wanted.

00:17:36.840 So I think because the video demonstrated that,

00:17:40.420 but then also in terms of the commentary I put on it,

00:17:43.660 I think also, one, it used the logic of the people who

00:17:49.020 make those claims, people who try to say there's

00:17:51.440 no difference between men and women. 0.76

00:17:53.520 It's all a social construct.

00:17:54.520 It's all sociological, all that kind of stuff, which is absurd.

00:17:57.440 But there are people who actually say that.

00:17:59.020 I've heard people argue that if boys and girls were

00:18:01.260 socialized in the same way, then boys would not

00:18:03.240 end up stronger than girls are, which is utter nonsense. 1.00

00:18:06.840 It's I hear something like that in my brain kind of does a backflip. I'm like, are you that dumb or you? 1.00

00:18:11.600 You know, I mean like that doesn't make any sense. Have you not heard of testosterone, you know 1.00

00:18:16.720 So there was that and then finally I think the fact that it was funny. Yeah, yeah, right. It was satirical. So

00:18:23.960 but

00:18:25.320 But it was satirical

00:18:27.020 But not everyone even got that it was satirical because we live in such a topsy-turvy world 1.00

00:18:30.900 That people often can't tell the difference between something being serious and satire

00:18:34.240 So some of the flack I received was from people who were angry at me, who thought I was, who were, you know, angry at me because they thought I'd genuinely taken the women's record.

00:18:46.180 And so they were saying, this is unfair.

00:18:48.040 What you're doing is deeply unfair towards women.

00:18:51.180 You know, you're not really a woman. 1.00

00:18:53.020 All these long diatribes.

00:18:55.380 And I was like, wow.

00:18:57.000 And then, you know, there were people who thought that I was being sexist by trying to prove that men were superior to women.

00:19:03.440 there were people who said I was being

00:19:05.400 like that needs any proof

00:19:06.300 there he goes

00:19:08.620 that joke is killing in Russia

00:19:12.600 finally somebody says the truth

00:19:14.840 yeah and then of course you had

00:19:18.840 a very small percentage of people

00:19:20.740 trying to claim that it was somehow transphobic

00:19:22.760 and infer that because of this

00:19:24.860 deadlift that I somehow hate trans 0.85

00:19:26.840 people or I want them to be 1.00

00:19:28.240 I want some horrible stuff to happen

00:19:29.660 you get the typical nonsense people like to throw accusations 0.54

00:19:32.660 out with hope that it'll somehow denigrate your position because they can't argue with what you're

00:19:37.680 actually saying. But it was also funny because I responded to a lot of these things publicly

00:19:41.840 and I was just claiming that they were being transphobic, right? Because I'm like, according

00:19:45.480 to your own logic, you've said that I can identify as whatever I want. And also you have this concept

00:19:52.460 of gender fluidity, so I don't even need to. That's why I said I identified as a woman whilst

00:19:56.800 lifting the weights because I've heard people talk about gender fluidity and they've said, 0.76

00:20:00.200 You know for some people it's day of the week can depend on what location they're in what emotional state they're in

00:20:04.400 So I said well when I'm in the emotional state of breaking wanting to break a record. I do genuinely

00:20:09.600 Identify as a woman now. I'm a man, but um, you know next time I go to the gym

00:20:13.860 I might I might be a woman as well and no and nobody's supposed to deny that everybody's supposed to accept it

00:20:18.700 so I kind of kept flipping flipping that back on all the critics and

00:20:23.420 They just kind of got frustrated because they were like he knows my arguments too. Well, right, so

00:20:28.600 So, yeah, the whole thing was really funny.

00:20:31.460 It went way further than I ever thought it was going to,

00:20:35.640 but it's been an interesting couple of weeks.

00:20:37.340 Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?

00:20:38.360 Because you never know what...

00:20:39.940 People always assume, like, with that story with me earlier in the year as well,

00:20:43.100 people always assume that you made it go viral, right?

00:20:46.400 And obviously, as comedians, artists, we're all egomaniacs.

00:20:49.220 We want every tweet that we put out to go viral,

00:20:51.140 but you never know what's going to happen, right?

00:20:54.080 And that always drives me crazy. 0.95

00:20:55.440 But, you know, this point about hating trans people, 0.83

00:20:57.900 Well, we had India Willoughby on the show a couple of weeks back 1.00

00:21:01.860 who's a transgender woman who's a TV presenter in this country.

00:21:05.500 And we were talking about this very issue

00:21:07.200 about women competing against trans women in sport.

00:21:10.860 And she was like, well, no, this can't happen.

00:21:13.740 If you've gone through male puberty, biology is going to be different. 0.66

00:21:17.700 But at the same time, I have to say,

00:21:20.420 listening to her talk about her own experience and her own story,

00:21:23.740 there are people who hate trans people.

00:21:26.000 You know what I mean?

00:21:26.480 And I think they were trying to lump you in with those people all people trying to do that with everything don't they?

00:21:31.720 Yeah, you've got people who think that literally everyone who voted brexit literally everyone who voted Trump is racist

00:21:37.760 It's like really, you know, I mean like I'm sure there are racist people who voted breaks

00:21:42.180 I'm sure there's people who voted Trump Trump for racist reasons. Yeah, I'm sure there are people who voted Brexit for racist reasons, but

00:21:49.320 You know, I don't know if it's just this sound this sounds so elitist

00:21:53.260 But I just don't know if it's like some people's just don't have the intellectual capacity to understand that there's a difference between

00:22:01.300 Those two things right the fact that

00:22:04.320 Some that maybe maybe most racist people did vote for Donald Trump

00:22:08.600 But that does not therefore infer that most people who voted for Donald Trump are racist

00:22:14.100 I don't know if perhaps logically some people do not even don't comprehend that just like some people don't understand that

00:22:20.380 correlation does not equal causation they'll look at two things that are

00:22:23.320 correlated and then they automatically say boom that's that they'll see any

00:22:27.220 sort of disparity that exists in any data set and they'll assume that that

00:22:32.080 must mean there's some kind of unfair discrimination or something like that

00:22:35.120 you see this all the time the most obvious one would be the whole gender

00:22:38.500 pay gap which has been debunked for literally for about 30 years right so

00:22:43.380 people will just take all the total earnings of men all the total earnings 0.85

00:22:47.020 of women or or sometimes they'll do it by race i saw hillary tweeted about that yesterday and then 1.00

00:22:52.460 they'll just say oh look there's a difference therefore racism therefore sexism and you're just

00:22:56.540 like what like it's such a i mean you could explain to a smart seven-year-old why that doesn't

00:23:03.740 make sense but people just run with it politicians run with it people just buy it up people eat it up

00:23:08.220 and i'm it does my head in because i'm just like how are you falling for this still it doesn't take

00:23:13.900 that much thinking to be like oh no that doesn't make sense if that made sense you'd look at um

00:23:19.600 you'd look at the nba and you'd conclude that the nba is deeply racist

00:23:23.460 and asian people exactly and asian and and white people yeah it's so maybe 70 60 70 percent black

00:23:34.480 nfl you look at these things sprinting 100 meters 200 meters you'd say wow they're being 0.91

00:23:39.860 discriminatory against um non-black people you look at swimming and say man they must hate black 0.87

00:23:45.780 people because there's no black people in the in the pool in professional swimming and nobody 0.93

00:23:49.380 nobody does this anyone would understand that these are absurd arguments but then people do 0.65

00:23:54.080 it with other things they'll look at a workplace they'll look at a university they'll look at

00:23:57.860 overall pain they'll look at all these things and they'll say ah see this is evidence of

00:24:01.280 discrimination and to anyone who's thinking they're just like no which is why i don't think

00:24:06.560 I mean, the IQ argument, I think, is very generous, actually, because I think it's probably more sinister than that.

00:24:13.760 I think it's an easy way to undermine people that you disagree with.

00:24:18.060 So, you know, arguably one of the main reasons Trump got elected is that people who were living in those swing states in America were losing jobs.

00:24:25.500 And that's why there's a drug epidemic. That's why there's a suicide epidemic. 0.73

00:24:29.080 But people don't want to address that. It's much easier to just scream racist.

00:24:32.100 and I think a lot of it is intent

00:24:35.200 and we've seen it with the whole

00:24:36.780 Russia collusion thing

00:24:38.880 which I'm deeply upset about 0.99

00:24:41.260 because I've lost my best fucking jokes 0.99

00:24:43.000 as a Russian comedian 0.99

00:24:44.480 no correction he's lost his jokes

00:24:46.460 yeah I've lost all my jokes

00:24:47.740 it's just me talking about airplane food

00:24:50.360 that's all I'm down to

00:24:51.900 you know when you're on Aeroflot

00:24:54.460 and the plane doesn't crash

00:24:56.520 no

00:24:57.480 what is that about

00:24:59.300 standing ovations

00:25:01.460 all through siberia yes more yeah man so i just think a lot of it is about intent now it's people

00:25:10.740 who are pushing a particular narrative and you know a lot of people won't know this but you and

00:25:14.000 i went to school and then we kind of went our separate ways and pursued our own lives uh but

00:25:17.820 one of the the first things that may put you back on my radar was you put out a tweet saying

00:25:23.340 a lot of people have the same opinions as me and privately will tell me that but they won't say so

00:25:29.780 publicly. And I think you've intimated what some of those might be. But broadly speaking,

00:25:35.080 what do you think it is that we people are now afraid to talk about?

00:25:38.800 Wow, gosh. Anything that's important. It's true though, isn't it? Anything in society,

00:25:46.800 in morality, in culture, in ethics, even in science to some degree, that has a risk of being

00:25:53.800 controversial or contentious, right? Because, again, we were talking about people just making

00:25:59.840 really binary arguments and trying to see the world in a really simplistic worldview. I mean,

00:26:05.300 that makes some sense from a psychological perspective, because our brains do all kinds

00:26:08.500 of shortcuts to make things easier. So the way we see the world can be just as simple as it needs

00:26:15.600 to be to navigate it, right? So it's much easier to navigate the world if you just believe that

00:26:21.560 everyone who thinks differently, right? If you're a liberal, and you're looking at conservatives,

00:26:27.080 right, it's, it's much easier to understand the world. If you just believe that everyone

00:26:32.280 who disagrees with you on these policy positions or on these ideas is evil, or doesn't or doesn't

00:26:37.160 or hates poor people, or hates minority or whatever, right? And that's how a lot of people

00:26:43.880 think, or equally hates capitalism, or whatever it is, right? Or if you're someone who's very

00:26:48.920 staunchly conservative it can be easy to just be like oh all those liberals like 1.00

00:26:53.360 they're just they're just stupid or they're this or they're that right and 1.00

00:26:57.980 so many people do that and they just pit themselves in these zones people like to 1.00

00:27:02.780 define themselves and then say okay well of course everybody believes their

00:27:06.380 worldview is correct right otherwise you wouldn't have your worldview if you

00:27:09.860 thought something about your worldview was wrong if you're you know a decent

00:27:14.060 person you would try to revise it and fix it but with so many people they're

00:27:17.400 just rooted in it and that's it you know if someone is um if someone is an atheist again

00:27:24.220 it's very simple to just go all those people who believe in religion they're just uneducated and 0.95

00:27:28.580 stupid right so i'm a religious person i'm christian and i've had people say stuff on 0.98

00:27:33.140 twitter right who are atheists and they'll be like oh i'm surprised someone who went to oxford 0.99

00:27:36.300 can believe in god and i'm like i don't i don't even know what to say to that because you're just

00:27:43.340 kind of like do you are you aware even that people who founded the science that

00:27:48.320 you worship were mostly religious people you see what I mean and it's like

00:27:51.860 that's that's has nothing to do with education right it's a belief system I

00:27:55.100 can I and oftentimes I'll find maybe just the person I'm I am I'm quite good

00:28:00.000 at empathizing with other people's positions so I can completely maybe not

00:28:04.220 completely but I think I can often understand other people's worldviews a

00:28:08.840 lot better than they can understand mine or other people's but that's largely

00:28:13.040 just because I try to, right?

00:28:15.180 I try to.

00:28:15.460 It's about willingness

00:28:16.140 and it's also about humility.

00:28:17.560 It is, really, yeah.

00:28:18.160 This is why we started the show

00:28:19.540 is because...

00:28:20.420 Constantine needed to be proved

00:28:21.560 that he was wrong.

00:28:24.260 That's never going to happen.

00:28:25.960 No, but the reason we started the show

00:28:27.800 is we were starting to feel like

00:28:29.140 the world doesn't really make sense to us.

00:28:31.580 You know, we didn't necessarily feel

00:28:33.160 like we understood why Brexit happened.

00:28:34.940 Well, what I knew was that I understood

00:28:37.160 that it wasn't because this is a racist country

00:28:39.380 as an immigrant here, right?

00:28:40.820 So when that was the main message,

00:28:42.440 I was like, well, no, it's definitely not that.

00:28:44.460 So let's start talking to people who voted Brexit.

00:28:46.900 Let's start bringing in experts who understand both sides.

00:28:50.000 And I think that's what we're lacking in our culture now

00:28:52.600 is a little bit of humility to go, I don't know everything.

00:28:56.160 Let's ask other people and try and find out what they think.

00:28:59.260 And be willing to be proven wrong

00:29:01.960 and be willing to find common ground.

00:29:04.100 Because the truth is with any ideology or worldview or position,

00:29:08.220 most of them have I think some of them are quite nonsensical but most of them

00:29:13.980 have some kernel of objective truth in them right so oftentimes they'll start

00:29:20.340 with something that makes sense but then they'll read they'll greatly

00:29:22.920 extrapolate it to a stage where it's like whoa okay like the end result is so

00:29:27.420 far gone that you're kind of like that doesn't make a lot of sense but yeah you

00:29:32.760 know there's there's a lot of humility so for example like talking about the

00:29:36.700 the existence of God, for example, right? I believe in God, but I'm very, I'm humble enough

00:29:42.640 to go, I could be completely wrong, right? Maybe there's, there's probably some religious people

00:29:46.380 who won't do that, right? But there are atheists, there are atheists, for example, who I've had

00:29:50.380 conversations with, and in some way, I'll joke with them that they're more religious than me,

00:29:54.440 because they'll say, I absolutely know that there is no God, and everyone else who thinks, and I'm

00:30:00.140 like, that's, that's a, that's a harder line position than mine, because I'm like, I believe

00:30:04.620 in god and that's and i accept that's a matter of faith i i know i can't give you some scientific

00:30:09.540 mathematical proof of it and go here see but i can i can explain to you my my reasoning and my

00:30:15.660 logic and reason for my beliefs but at the end of the day i'm like you know what i could be wrong

00:30:18.900 i could be wrong you know there's loads of stuff that i believe that i think and i'm like

00:30:22.240 okay you know i could be wrong um but what's weird is when people are presented with data

00:30:29.240 people people are presented with facts which disproves them you talked about this whole

00:30:33.420 Russia collusion thing. Yeah, right the media how many people have actually said

00:30:37.860 You know what we were wrong. We blew this. We're sorry. No, they just said no

00:30:42.660 The the report is it's not right. No, there was something like it doesn't matter what that

00:30:46.560 I saw someone say it doesn't matter what that report said

00:30:48.840 We know we know he did it and it's like you've been you're presented with something that

00:30:53.760 Goes against what you believe but people don't have the humility to just be like, oh, okay fair enough

00:30:58.600 You know like um because people don't want to change their minds and that makes sense

00:31:02.220 It's like, I like being right.

00:31:03.640 Everybody likes being right.

00:31:05.100 But there are some, there's things, there's big issues

00:31:07.680 that I've changed my mind on in the last sort of five years

00:31:10.200 because I've spoken to other people,

00:31:11.780 I've seen other perspectives,

00:31:13.020 and I've had times where someone's got a better argument

00:31:16.420 and better facts, and I'm like, okay, you're right.

00:31:18.940 Do you think it might be even deeper than that

00:31:21.560 and to do with identity?

00:31:23.000 For instance, people identify as certain labels.

00:31:25.740 Yes.

00:31:26.300 So then when they're presented with something,

00:31:28.120 that not only challenges the label they attach themselves to,

00:31:31.060 you're also challenging the fundamental structures of how they see the world.

00:31:35.960 And that is, unfortunately, just too dangerous and massive a change to go through.

00:31:39.840 Yeah, it's painful. It's painful.

00:31:41.640 If you have a deeply held belief, especially if you've held it for some time,

00:31:45.560 and then someone presents something that counters it or even challenges it,

00:31:50.580 even if it doesn't completely supersede it, but it challenges it,

00:31:54.260 a lot of people are not able to deal with that for whatever reason.

00:31:58.560 So sometimes it can be hard for people to even have these conversations because not everybody is even willing to have the conversation.

00:32:07.960 And I think that's partly because maybe somewhere deep down, they might know that what they believe is nonsense, right?

00:32:14.820 They might know that the reason you can't challenge it, the reason they don't want anyone to challenge it, is because it can't stand up to scrutiny.

00:32:23.040 So if you believe in some super weird idea or philosophy or ideology.

00:32:28.760 Socialism.

00:32:30.760 It's a fantastic example.

00:32:33.360 Because, okay, no, you've got people who call themselves, who advocate for communism.

00:32:37.040 You've got people who live in the UK, the USA, capitalistic countries,

00:32:41.160 some of the most wealthy, successful, equal, best societies in the world by most measures,

00:32:47.320 and they advocate for communism.

00:32:49.480 And you'll be like, okay, so tell me where it's worked.

00:32:52.640 What about that? What about the Soviet Union? What about Vietnam? What about China? What about your Cuba?

00:32:59.020 Right. What about Venezuela right now? You'll give them all these examples and they'll well that wasn't if I they didn't do it

00:33:05.840 my way or oh that wasn't it wasn't communism that led to the fall it was it was and

00:33:10.340 This kind of cognitive dissonance. I'm just kind of I find it very bizarre because I'm like why would you?

00:33:16.940 Like most people can recognize that Nazism was a bad idea. Let's not do that again 0.96

00:33:21.280 You know people happily accept that one, but there's like something sexy about

00:33:25.520 Socialism economy communism that people just want to keep trying it and trying it and trying it doesn't no matter how many times it fails

00:33:32.400 and

00:33:33.460 Yeah, that's quite fascinating to me. That's because Russia was Soviet Union was on the ally side of World War two true

00:33:40.100 That's what began. That's why the Soviet crimes were never really exposed. Yeah, wait Stalin killed more people in Hitler 0.82

00:33:44.940 Yeah, you know, I know but but also I think and it sounds flippant

00:33:48.100 it sounds almost jokey, but I think

00:33:50.020 there's a real truth to it. Hitler 0.95

00:33:52.020 doesn't look good on a t-shirt. Shea Guevara 1.00

00:33:54.020 does.

00:33:56.920 Yeah, it might be just

00:33:57.900 branding. Yeah, Shea Guevara,

00:34:00.160 that picture, that's an iconic photo.

00:34:02.020 Everybody knows who Shea Guevara is

00:34:03.820 without him necessarily knowing his story.

00:34:06.060 Just because he looks so damn sexy and good on

00:34:08.060 a t-shirt. Yeah, I mean, some of it is just education as

00:34:10.040 well, you know, I mean, some of that might be because

00:34:12.200 as we all

00:34:13.940 know, you know, academia is

00:34:15.500 steeped, you know, it

00:34:17.880 Leans very heavily left, both in school and college and university for the most part.

00:34:21.820 So when people are learning history, I mean, how many people, I mean, I remember specifically learning about the Holocaust and the atrocities of Nazi Germany in school.

00:34:30.980 Like, I remember seeing the pictures and watching some videos, and it was steeped in your mind, Nazism, bad, right? 0.98

00:34:38.020 It was like, it was very clear, right?

00:34:40.200 No one would have come.

00:34:40.920 But I didn't learn about a lot of the stuff in the Soviet Union and whatnot until my 20s, and I actively searched it out.

00:34:47.880 And I was kind of confused because I was like, oh, how did this all go on?

00:34:53.180 There's all this stuff, all these tens, hundreds of millions of dead bodies,

00:34:57.420 and this was just glossed over completely.

00:35:01.200 And that strikes me as quite pernicious or sinister because I'm like,

00:35:04.440 well, no wonder you've got all these university students running around

00:35:08.600 waving hammer and sickle flags and thinking that, you know,

00:35:12.440 wanting to overthrow capitalism and whatnot.

00:35:14.640 This is one of the things that George Orwell actually wrote about

00:35:16.940 Because when he published Animal Farm, when he published 1984, those books were being suppressed in the U.K.

00:35:23.200 And that's what one of the things he was rebelling against.

00:35:25.640 He actually wrote a brilliant essay talking about self-censorship, about how basically at that time it was not politically correct to criticize the Soviet Union.

00:35:33.500 Because they were helping us, helping Britain win the war. 0.99

00:35:36.820 And then after they were the allies, we didn't want to poke the Russian bear with all this shit. 0.96

00:35:41.420 And that's why all that stuff essentially never got properly aired, which is why that ideology isn't as tainted as Nazism. 0.96

00:35:49.960 But, you know, talking about stuff that is difficult to talk about, one of the kind of main themes, I think, of public discussion,

00:35:59.340 certainly kind of in the Twittersphere and blogosphere and in politics now is privilege, is oppression, is structural inequality, all this kind of stuff.

00:36:06.980 Where do you come down on that?

00:36:08.300 Or what about, say, the concept of white privilege, for example? 1.00

00:36:11.420 i think it's garbage completely i think it's utter garbage i think someone could argue that 0.98

00:36:18.300 there in any given country you may have some form of majority privilege um i mean the whole thing 0.99

00:36:25.500 of white privilege is it's uh it's essentially a little essay or paper by some woman that went 0.99

00:36:32.320 that went way too far right you know they had that whole um i can't remember the name of the

00:36:36.720 woman who first wrote the paper on it and the invisible knapsack and whatever it was you know

00:36:40.660 relatively short paper just with this idea of white privilege right it's just

00:36:44.200 kind of an idea and for whatever reason over the past few decades people kind of

00:36:48.820 a refound this paper and ran with it and so now you've got politicians and you've

00:36:53.140 got actors and you've got just general people talking about this whole concept

00:36:58.480 so I don't think it exists and there's people who criticize me for that I think

00:37:03.820 I think that's a garbage concept and I think it's a harmful concept it's not

00:37:07.240 just that it's not just that I I don't believe it exists I actually think it's 0.87

00:37:12.580 a terrible concept to try to ingrain in people all these forms of privilege

00:37:16.780 right if you're trying to tell males that they have male privilege you're

00:37:19.840 trying to tell white males they have white white privilege and male

00:37:23.980 privilege and heterosexual privilege and this and you're trying to create this

00:37:28.000 whole well Jordan Peterson always refers to the postmodern neo-marxist

00:37:34.060 it's kind of become a meme by now right but um but it is true because it's it's destructive

00:37:40.680 this is the problem right i don't i don't support any one i think that yeah like one i don't think

00:37:47.340 it's true i think that factually like when i see them when someone talks about white privilege i'm

00:37:51.820 like okay tell me what exactly you mean by that the things they say generally don't have anything

00:37:57.280 to do again oftentimes they could just fall into majority privilege so they might say stuff like

00:38:02.460 oh if you buy a plaster it's the color of it's closer to a white person's skin color than 0.89

00:38:08.420 than black persons and it's like okay but if you go to Africa it's the opposite because that's the 1.00

00:38:14.320 majority or when you're watching TV you're more likely to see white faces on TV than than black

00:38:20.460 faces or Asian I'm like you're in England do you know what I mean like you're in England if you go 0.99

00:38:24.960 to Nigeria everything's like every everyone's black you look at an ad you look on TV you look 0.98

00:38:30.660 the films everyone's black it's like because you're in nigeria if you go to china same thing 0.87

00:38:34.340 you know it's not it's not rocket science um i've heard people say stuff like if you're in in the 0.53

00:38:40.900 shampoo in hotel bathrooms works better on white people's hair than it works on afro hair and again

00:38:46.620 i'm like what country are you in why why would you expect they're going to have some special niche

00:38:51.680 black afro shampoo in i don't know cambridge in a hotel and and and then and then similarly i'm

00:39:00.500 I'm kind of like, look, if these are the things people have to complain about, stuff must be pretty freaking good if this is what you are complaining about, right?

00:39:11.080 If these are your examples and this is the best you're coming at me with, then I'm like, psh, throw that thing out the window.

00:39:16.280 And then secondly, I just think that it's quite a racist idea, to be honest with you.

00:39:21.660 I think it's a very racist idea to start claiming based on people's skin color, based on people's sex, based on people's sexuality, assuming they have some kind of advantage or disadvantage that they've just inherited and that no matter what they do, you know, they need to kind of acknowledge it and atone for it and check their privilege.

00:39:43.800 and you can now kind of beat them with the stick, right?

00:39:46.920 Every time you say something I don't like, 0.97

00:39:48.780 I can say, well, you're using your white male privilege 0.87

00:39:51.060 to victimize me. 0.72

00:39:53.000 Well, let me use some of my white male privilege

00:39:55.220 to try and push back on something

00:39:57.180 just for the sake of being devil's advocate.

00:39:58.640 No, let's do it, let's do it.

00:39:59.520 Because I hear a lot of what you're saying,

00:40:01.240 but a lot of people might say,

00:40:02.900 well, if you and I were walking down the street

00:40:05.240 in this country, I am not from here.

00:40:08.480 You actually were born here unlike me, right?

00:40:10.820 But the police would treat us differently 0.98

00:40:12.560 because I'm white and you're black. 0.93

00:40:16.220 According to what? 0.99

00:40:18.260 Well, black people are more likely to be prosecuted. 0.99

00:40:21.520 Black people are more likely to get a longer sentence, 0.99

00:40:24.700 a harsher sentence for the same crime, people say. 0.97

00:40:28.500 You're more likely to be arrested, et cetera, right?

00:40:32.140 For what? Arrested for what?

00:40:34.960 Arrested for what? I mean...

00:40:36.560 You're more likely to be...

00:40:38.180 Let's say you're more likely to be stopped and searched, right?

00:40:40.820 We know that.

00:40:41.800 Okay, like in London or something?

00:40:43.440 Yeah.

00:40:44.000 Okay.

00:40:46.960 Yeah, there's a couple reasons for that.

00:40:51.280 So the whole stop and search thing, that's a complicated issue.

00:40:57.000 I mean, everything has a flip side.

00:41:01.380 So the flip side of this one is obviously in certain areas, in certain cities, in certain countries,

00:41:07.940 the breakdown of demographics who commit certain crimes is different okay so if

00:41:14.900 you were looking if you if the police are trying to sort out knife crime in

00:41:19.440 London take the obvious example right violent crime in London violent crime in

00:41:22.860 Chicago in the USA take some obvious examples vast majority of perpetrators 0.83

00:41:28.120 are young black men vast majority of victims are young black men so does that 1.00

00:41:34.340 mean that the police this is where the nuance comes in and people

00:41:37.800 try to avoid the nuance right does that mean that the police should then go out

00:41:41.700 and just target all young black men because they know that that's the 0.95

00:41:46.560 demographic that commits those crimes at a higher rate no because the vast 0.99

00:41:50.220 majority of young black men do not commit any crime so it's a it's a it's a 0.94

00:41:56.760 complex this one's a complex one right people always try to make it more very

00:41:59.940 simple because they'll say black people get arrested at higher rates or are

00:42:03.420 more likely to be stopped by police and then it's like okay yeah but that

00:42:06.960 demographic is also committing more crime so how do we and people oftentimes 0.94

00:42:13.140 people won't want to acknowledge that fact because it's not convenient to

00:42:16.500 their argument but it's like okay you need to put both these things on the

00:42:19.420 table and recognize what the facts are and then you can actually have a proper

00:42:23.580 discussion of okay well what's the given these are the stats we might not like

00:42:27.840 the stats but given these are the stats how can we now address this issue trying

00:42:32.480 to say that that in itself is indicative of white privilege I'm just kind of like no because you

00:42:38.780 can say that with you could say that with any group right men in general commit far more crime

00:42:45.000 and especially violent crime than women do so good women are better you've already gone too 1.00

00:42:52.220 yeah so if so the rate of arrest between men and women right significantly more

00:43:02.460 men get arrested than women do does that mean that females have female privilege 1.00

00:43:05.880 no you wouldn't say that would be silly for someone to make that assumption and

00:43:10.620 make that conclusion differences between men and women exactly so what so it

00:43:14.640 wouldn't make sense to make that conclusion the other way around you

00:43:18.180 can't just say okay there's a disparity there's the problem with a lot of the

00:43:21.120 discourses people just see any disparity and then they try to just say that it's

00:43:25.200 this one thing yeah but there are lots of disparities that exist that don't

00:43:29.100 have anything to do with racism, sexism, etc. Could they? Could those be factors? Absolutely.

00:43:35.480 Right? There's probably, there's certainly, not probably, there's certainly some degree of racism

00:43:41.260 in society and also in police. I think that's been shown, that's been seen. To what degree it is

00:43:50.380 would be good to know, but it's hard to even find out because people are so dug into their positions

00:43:56.560 that they just want to use the facts and the statistics

00:43:59.780 and whatever that are convenient to them.

00:44:01.620 Well, let's take what you said as the truth,

00:44:04.000 which is that there is some of that happening, right?

00:44:06.500 For example, one of our former guests was talking about the fact

00:44:09.700 that if you do an experiment where you get a guy with no money

00:44:14.300 trying to get on a bus and saying to the bus driver,

00:44:16.460 look, just let me on, I need to go like three stops, would you?

00:44:18.980 Like a bus driver is less likely to let them on the bus without paying

00:44:23.780 If they're white if they're black they're less likely to do that, right? 0.74

00:44:27.220 So if that exists, which I think you're acknowledging

00:44:29.820 Isn't that what people are talking about when they say white privilege?

00:44:32.420 I'd actually need to look at that experiment specifically and see what the factors were. Were these people dressed exactly the same?

00:44:38.940 Were they equal attractiveness? Were they the same height? There's so many factors. Was it the same bus driver?

00:44:44.540 Did you try it with a whole bunch of different bus drivers and that's a pretty I'd imagine to do that as a scientifically

00:44:52.520 Congruent argument it would be quite hard to even do the experiment period so I need to know a

00:44:58.380 Whole bunch of factors right if the white guy was there dressed in a suit and looked smart

00:45:01.940 And then the black guys in a tracksuit you've already blown up your own experiment because 1.00

00:45:06.920 You know I used class thing I used to live in London and I can say that the way people looked at me and treated me

00:45:13.560 Depending on whether I was going to work in my suit in my tie or I was coming back from the gym in my hoodie and my tracksuit

00:45:19.040 I would be treated differently and people would look at me very differently. I go into shops and

00:45:23.760 People would respond differently now, so that's not based that that's obviously not based on race because it's literally the same person

00:45:29.520 It's just how you know people have all sorts of perceptions about people

00:45:33.540 We form opinions for better or for worse quite quickly on people, you know prejudice does exist

00:45:38.720 We all we all prejudge people all the time as soon as you see someone in the street you you form a really quick opinion of

00:45:44.560 it's not not even an opinion but like a pre opinion almost of

00:45:49.040 What's their status?

00:45:50.660 How smart might this person be?

00:45:54.540 How attractive is this person?

00:45:56.360 How dangerous could this person be?

00:45:58.580 Is this person going to ask me for something?

00:46:03.320 It's immediate.

00:46:04.340 It's immediate.

00:46:04.940 And so these things happen.

00:46:06.160 And I'm sure, again, there's a sex component to that.

00:46:08.560 There's a race component to that, even as a guy.

00:46:11.060 If you are walking down the street at night

00:46:12.820 and there's a woman approaching you versus a man approaching

00:46:16.300 You you'll have a higher you'll have a heightened level of threat for the man

00:46:20.520 I'm not because not because your sex is towards towards fellow men, but because you know

00:46:27.140 It doesn't even mean that person's a threat, but you're just aware especially if it's a group

00:46:30.560 What if it's a group of guys and what if they're big what if they're what if they're rowdy, right?

00:46:34.740 What if they're you know, you'll you'll be like you'll just be on your on your guard

00:46:37.980 Especially if you're a woman right a woman would be more so on her guard whereas if it's a group of three girls 1.00

00:46:43.220 She's probably less likely to to think that thing so

00:46:46.300 Yeah, it's a complex, all this stuff is really, really complicated, but it's stuff that is good for people to discuss openly and honestly.

00:46:56.160 This is the problem with over-political correctness, when these subjects become taboo or people don't want to talk about them openly.

00:47:04.640 Because if you do genuinely want to find solutions, if that's what people want, that's what they say they want,

00:47:08.980 if it is what people actually want you have to be able to discuss these things with nuance

00:47:13.340 push the emotion to the side and look at it from a lot of different angles because

00:47:18.140 most things in the world i mean human beings are the most complicated thing that exists

00:47:22.080 you know and it doesn't also i take it back to identity again i mean that's a problem with these

00:47:27.700 types of discussions is when you make a criticism or you put forward an argument people feel that

00:47:33.880 you're criticizing their identity who they are yeah and then they respond emotionally yeah and

00:47:38.780 And at that point, any semblance of sharing of ideas or listening goes out the window.

00:47:42.600 Yeah.

00:47:43.120 Fortunately, I'm not a very emotional person.

00:47:45.720 I'm really not.

00:47:47.440 I did a personality test.

00:47:49.360 I'm in the bottom 2% of neuroticism.

00:47:52.160 So I'm like, yeah.

00:47:54.340 98% of people by default, by definition, are far more emotional than me and susceptible to this stuff.

00:48:01.260 But with me, I'm just very frank, very authentic.

00:48:03.900 and I care about the facts

00:48:06.060 because I do actually genuinely care

00:48:07.600 also about finding a potential solution, okay?

00:48:10.380 I don't like the fact that you've got violent crime

00:48:14.840 that's being, you know, again, put it simply, 0.77

00:48:17.620 you've got a lot of young black guys,

00:48:19.740 especially, who are dying at the hands 0.92

00:48:23.240 of other young black guys, 0.76

00:48:24.740 whether it's from guns, whether it's from knives,

00:48:26.900 whether it's beating people up, whatever the tool used,

00:48:29.540 and it annoys me when people are pretending

00:48:33.400 to have this discussion but they're just screaming at each other and trying to accuse the other

00:48:37.400 people of who can you get these segments on tv it's like who can be the first to accuse the other

00:48:42.820 of racism like that's literally the conversation and i'm like that's not constructive that's not

00:48:47.200 constructive if you genuinely want to help these people if you genuinely don't want to have grieving

00:48:51.700 mothers and fathers who have lost their sons you really want to get to the core of the issue you

00:48:55.240 have to be able to put it on the table and discuss it openly you want to get a range of people range

00:48:59.420 of opinions, discuss it from different angles so you don't have too many blind spots, but

00:49:04.520 too many people target the person who's making, too many people judge the argument based on

00:49:10.600 the person who is making it, rather than what the argument is.

00:49:14.660 So if a white guy, if Piers Morgan says something about knife crime happening amongst black

00:49:23.240 youth in London, people will try to demonize Piers Morgan.

00:49:26.980 rather than addressing what he actually said whether you agree with it or you have some

00:49:31.540 counterpoints whether what people want to just go on and rage on him and i'm like well you're

00:49:37.140 part of the problem then because if you genuinely care about this demographic of people you generally

00:49:42.180 people in general you you don't want nobody wants to live in a society where people are getting

00:49:46.180 checked so if you genuinely care about that you have to be willing to accept the facts

00:49:50.740 and then to try to find a solution and everybody does want a solution like i'm not aware of anyone

00:49:56.580 who wants this stuff to to be going on I'm not aware of anyone who wants their

00:50:01.620 rate of theft murder rape to rise you see what I mean no nobody wants these

00:50:07.620 things so when people try to claim that that's what someone wants and you're 0.65

00:50:12.660 just it undermines the entire thing and you just kind of end up in this useless

00:50:17.340 spin cycle we're kind of just going around and everyone's shouting at each

00:50:20.820 other around the table and it's like okay well that's not nothing's gonna

00:50:24.360 happen there. And I think part of it as well is because I do think the root cause of some of these

00:50:28.040 issues is a lot deeper. It's deep. It's deep and it's not easy to solve, right? To take a very

00:50:34.760 obvious one, I would say rising rates of single motherhood, rising rates of fatherless homes,

00:50:40.300 big problem. Yeah, we had Dr. Tony Sewell on the show to talk about that. Okay. Yeah, exactly. Do

00:50:45.560 you think the reason that this whole idea, and I agree with loads of what you said there, do you

00:50:50.440 the reason that this idea of white privilege has become so viral is that number one it's an easy

00:50:58.040 explanation of a complex problem and number two is because there's a lot of people maybe

00:51:03.160 we're so wealthy now and so comfortable that we feel guilty about it and there's like this

00:51:07.720 is white guilt basically yeah yeah there's certainly there's a self-flagellation element

00:51:12.520 of it surely because you know i've had white people get annoyed with me that i don't think

00:51:17.160 think white privilege exists and they're like you know trying to score

00:51:20.220 woke points with me by trying to I think a lot of a lot of people assume I

00:51:24.480 believe in a lot of stuff that I don't right which in its own way is a little

00:51:27.820 bit racist right people assume because I'm a black guy I'm gonna believe that

00:51:34.280 I'm a victim or that I'm oppressed and whatever and I'm like I'm like the I'm

00:51:39.240 like the least on board with that train you know most people so people will you

00:51:45.540 know kind of try to say thing frame things in a certain way and then I will

00:51:50.560 challenge them on it and they're not expecting it so they're suddenly like I

00:51:54.660 don't know but yeah I think a lot of it is you know I guess what you could call

00:52:00.000 virtue signaling so having someone in a position or whatever but you see it a

00:52:05.060 lot with like these hot these Hollywood actors and actresses it's so cringering 0.86

00:52:08.460 and they'll be there like you know accepting their reward and collecting

00:52:11.980 their million dollars and self-flagellating themselves about how we need to be more diverse

00:52:16.460 and you know fight white male patriarchy and whatever and then they'll go home and just do

00:52:21.500 their normal stuff and it's I think it's kind of their way of making penance and you know trying

00:52:27.980 to signal to the world look I care I care about all this stuff but it's like reality I don't yeah

00:52:33.220 it's whatever um when it's very interesting how when I talk I've got a friend of mine who is who's

00:52:40.460 a black comedian and I and whenever I talk to him about things because his point of view isn't

00:52:47.340 strictly liberal it's not left wing and the moment we have a frank and honest conversation

00:52:52.360 about politics the first thing he does is turn over look over his shoulder and then talk to me

00:52:59.280 oh gosh why is that why is it deemed that you are not being authentically black if you are not left 0.57

00:53:07.920 Why is it that you can't be black and libertarian in the UK and somehow you're seeing as betraying your race? 0.52

00:53:14.880 Because that's how they keep people in check and keep their power.

00:53:19.080 You cannot have...

00:53:21.680 You cannot have this intersectional left-wing politics without having oppressors and victims.

00:53:28.640 So you have to pit white people against people of color. I hate that term, by the way.

00:53:33.640 you have to pit men against women you have to have one you have to pitch rich

00:53:38.980 rich against poor the 1% versus the 99% let's tax the 1% let's tax the 1% let's 0.84

00:53:44.500 have the people saying that are in the 1% right so the whole their whole like

00:53:52.460 take the Democratic Party in the USA if you take away these narratives then

00:53:59.700 their whole everything they've been running on for decades is lost right

00:54:05.380 they've been running on this is why this is why I vehemently dislike the

00:54:09.160 Democratic Party right I don't know don't even want to get like I'm not

00:54:12.420 really even a partisan but I really dislike their methods because you know 0.83

00:54:16.600 they just run on telling forcing black people in America to buy all these

00:54:21.780 narratives okay so you need us you must vote for a look at those Republicans 0.98

00:54:25.980 they hate you they want to keep you down we're gonna look after you we have white 1.00

00:54:29.680 privilege you you you've been you're oppressed whatever you know they'll do 0.97

00:54:33.400 the same with women they'll do the same with gay people any group that they

00:54:36.940 consider an oppressed minority to what degree of truth that is or isn't their

00:54:43.080 entire base their entire platform their policies and everything are based on

00:54:47.260 people on mass accepting these ideas so someone like myself someone like Kanye

00:54:54.760 West, someone like Thomas Sowell, someone like Clarence Thomas, like those are the people

00:55:00.000 who are going to get the most racial, like everyone who, like I've experienced very little

00:55:05.940 racism in my life. The racist attacks and just the attacks in general I've received

00:55:10.940 online, almost all from liberals. Like I don't get attacked by right-wingers. It's always

00:55:16.880 liberal. It's like, ooh, this guy, he's thinking for himself. Kanye. The whole thing that

00:55:22.900 happened with Kanye West last year to me was like mind-blowing. It was mind-blowing. I was like,

00:55:28.920 wow, there were some really nasty racist attacks on him for simply not going along with the herd.

00:55:36.900 And I mean, in the States, something like 90% of black people vote Democrat, which it doesn't make 0.88

00:55:41.020 it, which is freaking weird to begin with. But yeah, it's just groupthink. It's groupthink. It's

00:55:48.440 like people have been taught this way like I to me that's like the pernicious

00:55:51.740 actual racism it's like you've taken this entire group and as soon as one of

00:55:56.240 them strays you want you to you need to lasso them and get them back on the

00:55:59.300 plantation and no seriously it's terrible it's terrible like to me in the modern

00:56:04.460 day in the modern day I find a lot more man this is gonna sound harsh but I find 1.00

00:56:09.440 a lot more racism on the left wing than on the right wing and I don't even like

00:56:13.040 to use those terms because I think that again stuff is a lot more nuanced than

00:56:17.720 that and people are individuals but I think that there's like it's like racism

00:56:22.820 with a cuddle it's like a different type it's not like the blatant like you

00:56:28.160 know racial superiority thing but it's in a way it's a it's a type of it

00:56:31.960 because it's like we're so superior that like you need your you need our help like

00:56:37.640 the Republicans just want to treat everybody equally but that's not good

00:56:40.400 enough no no you need special you need special treatment and so what did um

00:56:44.300 It's that soft bigotry of low expectations and it is because with me, I'm just like look like I oppose things like

00:56:50.780 Racial based sex based affirmative action. I oppose it. I oppose it across the board 0.99

00:56:56.300 Which also surprises a lot of people because I'm like no I don't give me like I went to Oxford University

00:57:01.060 I would hate I would hate it that I went to Oxford because I was black

00:57:06.360 There was a white guy who was smarter than me who was much better 0.57

00:57:08.940 But they only took me because they needed to hit some number like that's a terrible

00:57:12.240 You don't you don't want to be doing that you don't want to be doing that in universities

00:57:15.360 You don't want to be doing that in companies, you know

00:57:17.600 You don't want to give someone a role just because they're a woman and you you just need more women 1.00

00:57:21.580 It's like no give it, you know, I'm a believer in meritocracy. Give it to the give it to the right person

00:57:26.860 If you want to do something that encourages certain groups to apply for more positions or whatever

00:57:31.700 I'm completely fine with that, but if you're going to start messing with test scores or having I mean they're doing this in the States

00:57:38.400 They've got different test scores

00:57:40.760 that you need to get into for certain universities

00:57:42.520 depending on what race you are.

00:57:44.380 Hey, man, that's fair enough.

00:57:45.200 They're trying to compensate for Asian privilege. 0.98

00:57:48.800 That's what they're doing.

00:57:50.620 Man, I've taught in a grammar school

00:57:52.220 and those kids, the majority, they're 80% Asian. 0.79

00:57:55.000 They're just destroying everybody else. 0.93

00:57:56.500 That's right, man.

00:57:57.920 They're smashing it.

00:57:58.960 They're smashing it.

00:57:59.600 But that doesn't mean you start discriminating against them.

00:58:02.440 That's insane to me.

00:58:03.480 But that feeds so much into the point that you made earlier,

00:58:05.960 which is what you're allowed to say depends on your skin color like if we switch seats

00:58:11.080 and or maybe better if you and francis switch yeah oh gosh with his face and his voice right

00:58:19.800 my privilege is a myth break it down i oppose uh you know quotas yeah i don't think women should 1.00

00:58:27.880 get any positions at all that everybody do you see what i'm saying i've got black privilege

00:58:33.100 yeah so in a way we are well you joke but in a way we are in a position where certain people

00:58:39.020 are allowed to say certain things that other people are not it's intentional and people will 0.61

00:58:42.560 assume that you have certain positions because you're black and that is racist yeah yeah but 0.62

00:58:49.100 you know like i said i'm good at people using people's own logic and games against yeah so 0.75

00:58:53.380 if that's how they want to roll then um you know i will use my black privilege in that case and i

00:58:59.720 Look, I'm always gonna be authentic. That's my thing. That's really my one of my north stars in life

00:59:04.900 Just being keeping it real really real telling the truth being authentic. I try not to ever lie

00:59:09.880 I try not to

00:59:11.160 Disguise or mask what I think for the sake of being PC or for somebody who I don't know liking me. I don't care

00:59:16.340 You know the people who keep the people who love me love me

00:59:20.600 So I'm not really worried about those other things if someone wants to challenge any of my positions or maybe thinks

00:59:26.600 I have a blind spot or anything like that, cool.

00:59:29.000 I'd love to talk to someone who really believes in all these narratives

00:59:31.620 and explain to me their position.

00:59:36.160 I'd love to have that conversation.

00:59:37.180 But with a lot of those people,

00:59:39.180 they're the type who just want to stick their fingers in their ear

00:59:41.120 and scream and call you names and stuff like that.

00:59:43.020 If someone like that is sensible, then I'm like, cool.

00:59:45.940 If someone talks about, take some of these issues,

00:59:48.460 institutional racism, institutional sexism, systemic,

00:59:51.460 these things people talk about.

00:59:52.780 I'm like, okay, if you can, I'd like to dig into them.

00:59:55.840 right if someone just says oh institutional racism like that's not an argument okay if you if there's

01:00:00.860 something specific because i'm not even i'm not saying that there's no there might be some policy

01:00:06.720 or something or some institution or some school or justice systems there might be something that

01:00:13.060 does genuinely have that issue but we need to laser in on it to do anything about it there's

01:00:19.360 no point just going on the street and holding up a sign saying i oppose institutional racism and

01:00:23.860 and marching around and shouting.

01:00:25.660 It's like, what does that even mean?

01:00:27.120 Do you even, did the person holding that sign

01:00:28.660 even know what it means?

01:00:29.800 And it's like, you'll drill down, and you find they don't.

01:00:32.840 But it's like, if you can find a particular policy,

01:00:35.380 a particular rule, a particular institution, whatever,

01:00:38.900 that is exhibiting racist behavior, I'm like, cool.

01:00:41.600 Let's zero in on that, and people on every side

01:00:44.080 of the spectrum will want to solve that.

01:00:46.420 Because this idea that conservatives or a whole bunch

01:00:50.740 people want people to be oppressed or want people to be held down they want

01:00:55.100 they want to keep women out of this they want to keep minority it's not it's 1.00

01:00:59.920 nonsense we're not living in 1950 thank God yeah right you know there was a

01:01:03.880 time when that was the case and there was a much better case for a lot of

01:01:07.720 these ideas because it was real right if we were in 1950 and someone said is the

01:01:12.760 white privilege I'll be like yeah well look we can't do that I can't do that I

01:01:15.940 can't do that I can't get this job I can't do that because my skin color yeah

01:01:19.840 And these concepts may exist in certain countries, well, not may, they do exist in certain countries still.

01:01:25.740 I grew up in Saudi Arabia.

01:01:27.220 If someone was like, is there male privilege in Saudi Arabia, I'm like, yeah, I mean, look at the law.

01:01:34.620 Women can't drive, so of course there is. 1.00

01:01:36.200 Well, they can now, can't they?

01:01:38.180 Yeah, I think it's still like there's certain restrictions.

01:01:43.500 I'm not doing my pro-women credentials. 0.66

01:01:45.600 It probably actually would be quite dangerous considering you're just starting now.

01:01:49.840 Can I just say to the producer,

01:01:51.640 can we just get Constitutimo sick?

01:01:54.560 Put them together and just put it out there.

01:01:57.120 Well, you know, I always say people make assumptions about me

01:02:00.080 that they think that because I'm Russian, I don't respect women.

01:02:03.760 Yeah.

01:02:04.460 And that's obviously not the real reason.

01:02:08.480 Irony, guys.

01:02:09.420 Welcome to comedy.

01:02:11.300 No, man, listen, it's been a great, absolutely great interview

01:02:13.680 talking about blind spots.

01:02:15.020 So the last question we always ask is,

01:02:16.840 what is our blind spot as a society?

01:02:18.700 What do you think is the one thing that no one's talking about that we ought to be talking about?

01:02:22.200 Ooh, boy.

01:02:26.340 Ooh, boy.

01:02:28.540 This is going to be really heavy.

01:02:30.600 What, heavier than what I've just done?

01:02:32.260 Yeah.

01:02:32.940 Okay.

01:02:33.420 Yeah, yeah.

01:02:34.740 Abortion.

01:02:36.000 Okay.

01:02:36.640 Yeah, I think that needs more serious discussion.

01:02:39.060 I think it's the biggest blight on society.

01:02:41.640 And I think a real serious discussion and elevation of consciousness is needed around it.

01:02:46.340 So to make that more specific for us, I'm guessing given that you're religious, you're probably against abortion.

01:02:51.420 Yeah, not from a religious basis, but I am against it, yeah.

01:02:54.880 I mean, those are human lives and thousands are being taken every day and it's very much out of sight, out of mind.

01:03:01.040 And it's certainly not a dinner table party conversation that anyone wants to get into.

01:03:06.540 you but um the way I look at it is very similar to how I imagine the people who

01:03:12.900 wanted to abolish slavery would have felt like hundreds of years ago when

01:03:17.100 you've you've got this thing that everybody accepts and it's been going on

01:03:20.460 for thousands of years and people aren't questioning it and it's deemed as a you

01:03:25.480 know slavery was always deemed from the perspective of the slaveholders rights

01:03:29.060 right we have a right to do this we have a right to do this abortion generally in

01:03:34.560 in the Western world is very much framed

01:03:36.220 as from pro-choice people, of course,

01:03:37.740 as a women's rights issue, right? 0.99

01:03:40.160 And very few people ever think about the baby, fetus,

01:03:45.620 if you want to use the euphemism.

01:03:48.600 And it's completely framed in that regard,

01:03:51.400 not from pro-life people.

01:03:52.380 Pro-life people are like, what about the baby

01:03:54.380 that's being killed, right?

01:03:57.060 But I think that that whole conversation,

01:04:01.720 I don't know if society is yet mature enough

01:04:03.280 to have that conversation, but it's a conversation

01:04:05.860 that I do think is needed.

01:04:08.580 Like, it's something that troubles me.

01:04:09.660 It's something that troubles me every day, genuinely.

01:04:11.740 It troubles me a lot, not because it directly impacts me,

01:04:17.560 but just knowing the rates of it, you know,

01:04:20.460 and looking at the numbers.

01:04:21.340 I mean, in some parts of the US, I mean,

01:04:23.600 black babies in particular have a 50-50 chance 1.00

01:04:26.320 of being aborted, okay? 0.98

01:04:27.840 So over 50 million potential Americans have been killed

01:04:32.520 since in the past like 40 years or something like that I don't know the

01:04:36.360 exact figures in the UK but um considering how far we've come in a

01:04:42.240 society in terms of just like consciousness and treating people

01:04:45.480 decently and humanely and stuff like that that one does trouble me to know

01:04:49.260 that the most vulnerable members of the human species are not even considered in

01:04:55.620 those things and I know it's it's a very polarizing topic it's something people

01:04:58.860 get very heated on understandably on both sides um but um yeah in terms of a societal blind spot

01:05:06.700 or something people just don't want to don't want to touch don't want to talk about i do think that

01:05:11.800 it's uh to me personally it's uh it's something serious yeah i think the thing with that is that

01:05:16.880 i is such a difficult issue because i don't think it's about maturity i'm not sure that issue is

01:05:21.920 ever going to get resolved we're never going to find like a solution because it's kind of halfway

01:05:27.480 And there's always going to have to be a compromise and when you're talking about human lives compromises don't really make

01:05:33.420 This is the problem. That's the thing. Yeah, so I guess I feel like the place we're at now is

01:05:41.140 It's in this country is kind of as good a compromise as you're probably gonna get

01:05:47.180 Then again, you know the human lives and these are these are people and so we're talking

01:05:51.980 Not everybody even accepts that a lot of people don't yeah 0.97

01:05:54.740 Well, that's that's only because they're bullshitting themselves. They don't want to have the real they don't want to go. We're killing people

01:06:01.500 But maybe we we should be allowed to sometimes, you know, like that's really the compromise we're at

01:06:07.620 Because it's kind of halfway it is a woman's rights issue 1.00

01:06:10.280 It is a woman's right to show on the one hand on that hand 1.00

01:06:14.120 It is killing people and you have to be able to hold both of those in your head

01:06:17.580 Yeah, and be okay with that and that's very difficult to do. Yeah, and most people don't even accept what you just said

01:06:23.280 Yeah, right. Most people who are pro-choice would either try to say that that's not a human life or they just

01:06:29.740 Yeah, but there's millions of people who hold that position, you know

01:06:35.420 I think they're just trying to defend their argument. Yeah

01:06:38.060 No, I think so too. I think so too because at least that's an honest position if someone again

01:06:42.100 You have to at least put the facts on the table. Yeah, you know put the facts on the table again

01:06:45.500 You know, and my argument is not from a religious standpoint at all. It's not religious at all

01:06:49.980 It's just saying, you know, do you believe that it's wrong to kill innocent human beings?

01:06:53.280 99% of people will say yes.

01:06:55.880 Most people will accept that stabbing a newborn baby is wrong

01:06:59.360 and you should go to prison for it. 0.55

01:07:01.160 But a lot of people think that until that baby comes out,

01:07:05.200 you can chop it up. 1.00

01:07:07.000 So you can stab it. 1.00

01:07:07.980 As long as it's still in the womb, you can stab it. 1.00

01:07:10.100 And I'm like, how does that make sense? 0.94

01:07:13.860 Given you've just said, like, you know.

01:07:17.440 It's an unresolvable issue.

01:07:18.800 That's the problem.

01:07:19.440 It doesn't make sense.

01:07:20.880 But I'm sure everybody on the Internet is very grateful

01:07:22.920 Three men

01:07:26.700 See this is the problem

01:07:29.100 That's that's the half the problem right this whole notion that men shouldn't have yeah 0.96

01:07:33.480 Like how were babies made what about the father?

01:07:35.920 I mean each of these babies has a father. Yeah, right so and also the father's gonna be on the hook for the father's good

01:07:43.840 Yeah, no no the men made his decision when he when he ejaculated, okay, but

01:07:48.700 didn't how come the women's decision wasn't also made then right you've still got they've got an 1.00

01:07:53.160 extra well that's because they have to carry the baby and all the rest of course it's complicated

01:07:56.960 it's very complicated but yeah i think it's a conversation that should be i know why it's not

01:08:02.820 more out in the open but it's something that i think that um again it's very out of sight out

01:08:07.760 of mind yeah but i think it's something that people should uh so you would want to you would

01:08:12.040 want to eliminate it completely you would want no abortions to happen i would love no abortions

01:08:16.200 to happen ever yeah is that a realistic position that we're gonna reach tomorrow

01:08:19.980 no it's not yeah but just like I don't want children to be I don't want

01:08:27.440 infanticide ever to happen I don't want murder ever to happen I don't want rape

01:08:30.480 ever to happen but those things are all illegal so would you want to make it

01:08:34.600 completely legal that's a good question I will before before even getting there

01:08:38.440 there's no point in even having that discussion until the discussion the

01:08:44.340 wider discussion is being had, because it

01:08:46.800 affects a lot of things.

01:08:48.300 It comes down to relationships.

01:08:50.700 It comes down to people's sexual behavior.

01:08:52.680 It comes down to a whole bunch of things.

01:08:54.540 And this goes for both men and women.

01:08:56.800 A lot of people think this is trying to pin everything

01:08:59.440 on women or whatever.

01:09:00.340 And it's like, no, no, I'm talking just as much to guys.

01:09:03.240 If you're going to run around there and be sleeping

01:09:06.420 with all these women and kind of like jetting off and whatever, 0.99

01:09:09.300 it's like, again, that's why I was saying,

01:09:11.040 I don't know if society's ready to kind of have

01:09:13.680 that bigger conversation of like, OK, what's right

01:09:19.140 and what's wrong?

01:09:20.640 We've got it in a lot of the other things.

01:09:22.480 What I find weird is you've got this rise in veganism,

01:09:25.940 animal rights ideas, all these kind of things.

01:09:28.560 And with me, again, sometimes I'm like, OK,

01:09:32.040 so you're saying it's deeply wrong

01:09:34.560 to kill a chicken or a fish to eat.

01:09:38.380 But a human being, as long as it's not born yet,

01:09:43.280 it's okay to, it's ethically fine to...

01:09:46.780 Well, the Venn diagram for vegans and pro-abortion people

01:09:50.460 is going to be pretty...

01:09:51.340 Yeah, this is the thing.

01:09:53.040 That's why it confuses me.

01:09:54.540 Because it's like consciousness is rising in all these other areas.

01:09:58.060 You see what I mean?

01:09:58.760 And that's good.

01:09:59.720 That's cool.

01:10:00.840 So I'm kind of like, well, how about that one?

01:10:04.200 And I think a lot of it is people have not...

01:10:06.100 One, it's something people lie about a lot

01:10:07.820 because the people who are pro-choice

01:10:09.780 don't like to put the facts out there

01:10:11.140 because the facts aren't actually...

01:10:13.960 They're not very...

01:10:15.020 They're uncomfortable, man.

01:10:16.500 The facts are uncomfortable

01:10:17.360 and they will shift people's in the other direction.

01:10:20.620 This is what happened with me.

01:10:21.300 I used to be kind of like...

01:10:23.140 It just wasn't something I thought about.

01:10:24.820 It wasn't something I thought about

01:10:26.020 and then someone presented an argument to me

01:10:28.080 and we were talking about it properly

01:10:30.960 and I was like, yeah, that's really wrong, isn't it?

01:10:33.960 You know what I mean?

01:10:34.320 like, yeah, like, you know, like, I had to give up my position, because I was like, yeah,

01:10:39.900 you're right, you know, I was like, yeah, you're right, it just wasn't something I'd

01:10:42.960 really thought about before, I just kind of had, like, a default position, like, you know,

01:10:45.940 whatever, but then, like, I really thought about, like, I sat, and I thought about it,

01:10:49.760 and I was like, yeah, that's, that's a human life, like, that makes sense, you know, I've

01:10:53.540 got nine nieces and nephews, I know where they came from, you know what I mean, I was

01:10:57.000 born, like, if I rewinded my own life, it's like, okay, where would it have started,

01:11:00.360 didn't just magically start

01:11:02.120 when I came out and took my first breath.

01:11:04.240 It's like I was obviously still me

01:11:05.560 when I was in my mother's stomach, right?

01:11:07.760 So I was like, yeah, okay, you win, you know?

01:11:11.700 And from then on, literally,

01:11:12.860 I turned pro-life in like 20 seconds.

01:11:15.300 And yeah, so I think it's a conversation

01:11:17.600 that needs to be had.

01:11:19.740 Some people will hate me for that.

01:11:20.820 I've had hundreds of people unfollow me on Twitter

01:11:23.100 after finding out I'm pro-life,

01:11:24.340 but I'm gonna speak my truth.

01:11:26.720 And if people don't like it

01:11:28.160 or they wanna shy away from opinions

01:11:30.100 that may differ from theirs,

01:11:31.740 then that's on them.

01:11:32.980 I'm happy to talk to anybody.

01:11:34.560 You know what I mean?

01:11:35.580 And on that upbeat note...

01:11:37.000 Yeah, sorry about that.

01:11:39.080 Sorry to pull it down.

01:11:40.020 It's all about the positivity

01:11:41.040 on this podcast.

01:11:42.400 Except when it comes to women 0.99

01:11:43.700 and women's rights. 0.97

01:11:46.800 This episode has been pretty bad for us.

01:11:49.220 They're all jokes.

01:11:50.080 Ladies, our three female followers, 0.98

01:11:52.280 we love you.

01:11:53.220 We respect you.

01:11:54.420 Mate, that's just making it even worse.

01:11:55.880 I'm trying to be charming.

01:11:57.820 Was that charming?

01:11:59.040 No.

01:12:00.100 No, no, hence trying to be charming.

01:12:03.220 Just creepy.

01:12:04.020 Good old Russian creepiness. 1.00

01:12:05.940 All right, well.

01:12:06.320 I expect we don't do that.

01:12:08.640 Well, listen, guys, whatever gender you are,

01:12:10.620 if you've enjoyed us talking to Zuby,

01:12:12.640 he's a brilliant musician, very interesting guys you've seen.

01:12:15.280 Make sure you follow him on Twitter, on Instagram,

01:12:17.400 on all the social media, YouTube channel as well,

01:12:20.840 the Zuby podcast.

01:12:22.000 Tell us about that quickly before we let you go.

01:12:23.300 Yeah, sure thing.

01:12:23.840 So I do a podcast twice a week called Real Talk with Zuby 0.71

01:12:27.100 that um conversations with interesting guests very open dialogue very much pro free speech

01:12:33.700 um you can also find me on twitter at zuby music same facebook and instagram at zuby music z-u-b-y

01:12:40.220 music my website is zuby music.com and my new album perseverance is out right now and it's great

01:12:45.520 stuff yeah check it out and as always follow us on all the social media at trigger pod make sure

01:12:50.540 you subscribe to the youtube channel zuby has one as i'll subscribe to his but on our youtube channel

01:12:54.400 make sure you click that bell button

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01:12:59.560 Leave us an iTunes review

01:13:00.640 if you're a listener.

01:13:01.480 This podcast, if you don't know,

01:13:03.020 is also available in audio form

01:13:04.760 only on iTunes

01:13:05.740 and all other podcast platforms.

01:13:07.860 And we will see you again

01:13:09.180 in a week from now

01:13:09.940 with another brilliant episode.

01:13:11.140 Absolutely.

01:13:11.780 And if you please check to see

01:13:13.480 if you've been unsubscribed,

01:13:14.600 if you have resubscribed,

01:13:16.100 tell us and continue to spread the hate.

01:13:18.680 All right.

01:13:18.960 See you next week, guys.

01:13:24.400 We'll be right back.

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TRIGGERnometry - April 21, 2019

Zuby on Positive Rap, Identifying as a Woman and White Privilege

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