TRIGGERnometry - Zuby - The Problem with Black Lives Matter

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00:00:30.000 hello and welcome to trigonometry i'm francis foster i'm constantin kissin and this is the

00:00:41.020 show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people our amazing and returning

00:00:47.140 guest this week is a rapper and social commentator zuby welcome back to trigonometry happy to be

00:00:51.980 here guys good to see you both it's good to see you man um anyone doesn't know you will just

00:00:55.980 remind them that we've interviewed you before so they can go and check that out but you're a rapper

00:00:59.700 president of the social commentator. You've got quite a big audience now. And it's a good time

00:01:05.000 for people with a sane voice like yours to be saying what they think. So what have you been

00:01:10.080 up to? How's life? What's going on with you? Yeah, things have been good. You know, as we record this,

00:01:14.380 we are coming towards the end of this weird lockdown period we've had over the past couple

00:01:19.060 of months. So I think this year has been a little bit weird for everybody. In terms of my career and

00:01:23.160 business, things have been going very well since we last spoke. I mean, things have just started

00:01:28.400 to go viral when we last spoke but since then um i spent a couple months out in the u.s last year

00:01:34.820 i was on a lot of big podcasts the joe rogan experience the ruben report ben shapiro show

00:01:40.760 obviously this one was a highlight but anyway man the trigonometry was still one of my favorites

00:01:45.560 yeah so things things have been crazy um getting love all over and my audience has grown from i

00:01:52.960 think about 50,000 across the board on social media to approaching 400,000 now in just over a

00:01:58.640 year. So it's been crazy. It's been amazing. Things have been good. And yeah, I'm now in a

00:02:06.760 sort of brand new position that I've never been in in my life before. So I'm sort of navigating that

00:02:12.320 now independently. And it's a new challenge, but it's very exciting. And why do you think that

00:02:17.600 you've managed to grow so phenomenally well? I mean, obviously, part of it is the fact that

00:02:21.420 that you're on these podcasts. But the reason you're on these podcasts is because you're quite

00:02:26.760 a unique voice, aren't you? In terms of what's happening now. Why do you think that you've

00:02:32.520 grown so fast, so quick? To put it simply, I think that people are looking for sane and honest

00:02:38.060 voices. And I've always been a sane and an honest voice. I haven't done something massively different

00:02:45.320 from what I did previously, apart from showing more of myself and being more willing to participate

00:02:51.140 in some of the conversations that I used to only have privately and start putting some of those on

00:02:55.720 Twitter and other social media, talking about them on my own podcast and other people's.

00:03:01.020 And yeah, I think in the past five years, things have gone so sideways and people are just,

00:03:06.580 a lot of people are feeling silenced. A lot of people are feeling fearful. A lot of people are

00:03:10.900 just feeling like, whoa, the world is going crazy. What's going on in society? We need sane voices.

00:03:16.160 So just like yourselves with this podcast, I think that people are looking for people who are reasonable, people who are rational, willing to have conversations and not just yell at each other.

00:03:26.360 And yeah, I think I fit that.

00:03:28.640 And I also think with my background and my experiences and my personality, I'm just able to bring something different to the table than sort of your standard down the line on whatever side commentator.

00:03:41.680 Having the perspective, having grown up in Saudi Arabia, having family background originally

00:03:45.820 from Nigeria, going to an American school for a while, living here in the UK, just being

00:03:50.400 able to come at things from different angles and not being afraid to put my thoughts out

00:03:55.880 there, even if they might be deemed edgy or controversial or people disagree with them

00:04:01.620 or whatever.

00:04:02.720 One of the most common things people say to me multiple times a day is, I don't agree

00:04:07.060 with everything you say, but I massively respect you.

00:04:09.780 And I love the fact that you say it and you're not, you know, and it's reasonable.

00:04:13.880 It's rational. It's not just trying to rile people up for no reason.

00:04:17.740 Well, talking about all of those things and what's happening right now across the world, the Western world, at least the situation with George Floyd and Black Lives Matter and all the rest of it.

00:04:28.120 I actually saw you talking about George Floyd long before most people were talking about it.

00:04:33.900 And you were saying, look, this is clearly murder. This is clearly, you know, police brutality.

00:04:37.740 This guy, the police officer, needs to be prosecuted, et cetera.

00:04:41.880 And there was some debate around it at the time.

00:04:43.900 People were arguing with you, et cetera.

00:04:47.000 But you've gone from being almost contrarian initially on that issue

00:04:51.960 to now saying you don't support Black Lives Matter

00:04:54.680 and you never have and you never would.

00:04:57.260 So just take people like, don't you care about black people, Zubi?

00:05:04.040 You know, it's a given.

00:05:05.620 Um, yeah, obviously, obviously I, I care about black people. I, every, as 99.9% of people do. Um, I, last time I checked, I was still black. I might need to check with Joe Biden.

00:05:19.520 Last time I checked, I was still black as was the majority of my family. Um, so the, the thing here is, so firstly, talking about the George Floyd situation, um, unequivocally, you know, I, I saw, I saw the video when it came out.

00:05:35.240 I saw it early. I was talking about it before I even knew his name was George Floyd.

00:05:39.740 I just saw this video of this policeman kneeling on this man's neck until he passes out and saying he can't breathe and people are shouting.

00:05:46.800 I watched the video, and it was one of the most egregious.

00:05:50.540 I think that one and you guys know the Daniel Shaver shooting, if you're familiar with that.

00:05:55.720 I'd say those two of all the unfortunately I've watched quite a lot of police violence videos from the USA that have emerged over the years and I'd say the George Floyd one and the Daniel Schaefer one were the two that I thought were most egregious that were just clearly murder right not like okay I'm not sure this is a bit debatable there was a fight or something like that it was just clear this guy was helpless.

00:06:19.400 you didn't have to do that to him. I think that's one of the things that makes it so

00:06:23.060 visceral is that this is a helpless person in handcuffs. It is. And someone is just kneeling

00:06:29.080 on his neck. For a long time. And people are asking him to stop and George Floyd. And that's

00:06:33.260 what makes it so deeply, deeply disturbing. Yeah, it's very disturbing. And I don't think

00:06:37.900 anyone watched that and could see anything other than that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so,

00:06:43.780 yeah, I felt, I just felt morally compelled to speak on it. You know, I see a lot of stuff and

00:06:49.660 I don't, I can't speak on everything. Otherwise I'd be spending all day, every day, just speaking

00:06:54.540 out on all of these issues. Um, but this one was particularly egregious and I thought it was

00:06:58.940 important to actually amplify it and let more people know, Hey, have you guys seen what has

00:07:04.060 happened here? Um, and I did a YouTube video on it. I just made a 16 minute video, which I think

00:07:08.940 over 50,000 people have watched now. Um, it's just called George Floyd was murdered. I just

00:07:13.140 shared my view on it. And then, so coming around to what you were asking about more recently is

00:07:20.200 in regards to the Black Lives Matter thing. So there's, I mean, I know why they've called

00:07:28.240 themselves Black Lives Matter because it's, the name is incredibly powerful, right? Because no

00:07:33.740 one disagrees with the statement. No one disagrees with the slogan itself. However, Black Lives Matter

00:07:39.560 BLM is an organization. And some people may not know this. There's a difference between BLM,

00:07:47.800 Black Lives Matter, the organization and the different chapters that they have,

00:07:51.980 and someone just saying the sentence or the slogan, Black Lives Matter, or perhaps putting

00:07:56.260 it on a sign without necessarily representing the organization. So in hindsight, I clearly could

00:08:02.080 have worded the tweet that I put out there more carefully. I did clarify it in a second one.

00:08:06.380 Um, but I was saying that the, the organization itself is not what it says on the tin, right?

00:08:16.000 It's not simply, okay, we are trying to save black lives or we are working against injustices

00:08:23.660 or, you know, racial inequities, anything like that, that, that can be a part of it.

00:08:28.940 And that's the, that's the sort of Trojan horse that they're using for the rest of it.

00:08:33.480 But there are some very bizarre parts of the ideology in there.

00:08:37.620 The people who founded it, the people who promote it, it's run by some pretty radical black women in America.

00:08:46.080 And there are things in there about, you know, wanting to dismantle capitalism, wanting to disrupt the nuclear family structure, wanting to defund and ultimately abolish the police.

00:08:58.300 There's all three of those, which are very, very, very bad ideas and which would, in fact, probably disproportionately affect black American communities.

00:09:09.160 And then there's also not not strictly on their website, but from a lot of the people in that organization.

00:09:15.660 There's also a lot of race baiting, a lot of anti white rhetoric, a lot of, you know, it's it's it's pretty Marxist stuff in reality.

00:09:25.180 And what they've done is they've sort of taken that ideology and those views and called themselves a title that no one can argue with.

00:09:33.300 So if you criticize Black Lives Matter, people are like, oh, my gosh, but it's called Black Lives Matter.

00:09:37.400 You know, it would be like, I don't know, if I ever created a terrorist organization, I'd call it the, you know, peace, love and harmony or something.

00:09:44.560 Don't kick puppies.

00:09:46.920 Yeah, exactly.

00:09:47.840 Yeah.

00:09:48.280 And it's I mean, I see straight through stuff like that.

00:09:51.280 And I think as someone who does and who looks into these things in detail, I can miscommunicate with people because I almost assume accidentally that other people kind of have my eye and my brain to see through the matrix a little bit and go beyond what the slogan is and see what's going on behind here because I think it's quite insidious.

00:10:15.720 So that was the reason for that comment.

00:10:19.040 Most people got it, actually.

00:10:20.660 I mean, the majority of people who saw it, I believe, understood it, but a lot of people

00:10:23.940 definitely did not.

00:10:25.200 Got, you know, some blowback from places, including, you know, places a little bit close

00:10:29.880 to me, which I wasn't expecting because I didn't expect millions of people to even see

00:10:34.120 the tweet.

00:10:36.140 But yeah, I mean, in terms of what I was getting at, I know why I said it.

00:10:40.360 I probably would have, to be honest, I wouldn't have tweeted it.

00:10:43.080 I probably would have done like a whole video on it, you know, a 30-minute video explaining

00:10:46.620 my position.

00:10:47.140 Oh, and also in terms of the BLM as the organization, also it's largely a vehicle to fund Democratic presidential candidates in the U.S. as well.

00:10:56.320 So if you go and you donate to them, it takes you to a website called ActBlue, which is a company and website where if you trace the donations, the donations often go to Bernie Sanders and Pete Buttigieg and all the Democratic candidates, etc.

00:11:12.880 So in that sense, it's even more dodgy that they're getting these donations, tunes of hundreds of millions of dollars, by the way.

00:11:21.520 I think, you know, this is not even a conspiracy theory.

00:11:24.020 I think George Soros himself put $100 million into BLM.

00:11:27.460 And, yeah, it's just not what people think it is, at least as the organization.

00:11:33.460 so people need to parse those out but they've intentionally made it very difficult to do

00:11:39.460 by calling the name something very noble i mean it's really interesting you say that because

00:11:46.020 when i was doing my research on it and i was reading through with some of the things that

00:11:49.820 they were saying alarm bells were going off but because like you said they've marketed it so

00:11:54.520 brilliantly especially as a white dude going uh actually guys i'm not sure i'm on board with it

00:12:00.000 It's like, you know, you're taken away.

00:12:02.420 But what you cannot argue is that they have made this particular issue resonate across the globe.

00:12:09.180 You have demonstrations, Australia, Brazil, all the rest of it.

00:12:12.460 How have they been able to do that so brilliantly?

00:12:15.120 Well, they have got a lot of funding.

00:12:16.740 They've got hundreds of millions of dollars in funding.

00:12:20.500 So they've got a very big megaphone.

00:12:23.500 And I don't think we can underestimate the power of slogans.

00:12:27.200 slogans this is something i've kind of i've always known that slogans are important but

00:12:32.340 in the past few months i'm kind of like wow people are really like no one was talking defund the

00:12:38.520 police two weeks ago now defund the police is like a it's like a catchphrase really defund the

00:12:44.800 police defund it and it's just weird how people what what did i say the other day how did i word

00:12:51.980 it. Something like human beings are herd animals who believe we are individualists, which is really

00:13:00.140 the case. I think that the vast majority of people, all of us to some degree have some element

00:13:05.500 of herd mentality, but I think that the people who sort of stand outside of that and don't kind

00:13:12.980 of just get swept up in the wave of it, which I believe includes everybody here, we're actually

00:13:17.840 minority. That's something I've really learned. It's a minority position. And so, yeah, I think

00:13:25.860 the slogans have been super duper powerful. And I think there's no question that there is an element

00:13:33.800 of good in what they're promoting. Of course, it's called Black Lives Matter, right? It can't

00:13:40.640 all be bad. Of course not. It's extremely opportunistic because they seem to pop up

00:13:48.520 every election year. You know, 2016 gets big, 2020 gets big. And one of my biggest criticisms

00:13:54.640 of the movement of BLM is the fact that they focus on 0.001% of black lives. So it's funny

00:14:03.860 because if I criticize BLM, someone will try to suggest that either I'm racist or I'm caping

00:14:09.240 for racists or something. And one of my biggest criticisms of them is why do you only care about

00:14:15.580 black lives when they are killed by a white police officer in dubious circumstances, right?

00:14:22.240 If the movement is going to be called Black Lives Matter, why is all the focus on the 0.001%

00:14:29.220 of black people who are killed in a very certain specific way at a specific time by a specific

00:14:35.080 type of person, right? Why can't we talk about the wider issue, right? Why aren't we talking about

00:14:41.460 homicide is the biggest killer of black American males who are under 40, I believe, right? And

00:14:50.140 that's only true for that demographic, right? Homicide is the biggest killer. So can we have

00:14:57.620 a conversation about that? Like, if it's Black Lives Matter, can we talk about that whole thing?

00:15:02.820 Can we talk about even nutrition and diet and people dying of heart disease and diabetes?

00:15:08.500 Why can't we talk about the whole thing?

00:15:10.660 Why are we only talking about it in these very, very specific scenarios?

00:15:14.340 I also think that if you wanted to solve the police brutality issue and you wanted to stop

00:15:19.900 these unjust police killings, and I differ from a lot of people on this one.

00:15:24.820 I've spoken with friends, family about this, and I don't think everybody understands or

00:15:28.420 agrees with my position on this, but I think you need to widen the scope.

00:15:32.320 Right. Some people say, OK, they want to do Black Lives Matter because they want to focus on that specific demographic first.

00:15:38.040 But it's like, look, the majority of people killed by police in the U.S. are not black.

00:15:44.300 Right. And people will say, yeah, but it's disproportionate to the popular.

00:15:47.500 But I'm like, yes, but overall, only 25 to 30 percent of these police killings are black victims.

00:15:54.340 So this is clearly not just, sure, there can be a racial bias problem here, but it's clearly

00:16:02.120 not just this narrative of the police are riding around in the USA, hunting down, lynching

00:16:08.560 black people, like some people are trying to say, you know, you can't go outside your

00:16:11.240 house without fearing for your life, all that really hyperbolic emotional stuff, which I'm

00:16:16.940 no fan of because I think it distorts it and it prevents people from finding actual solutions.

00:16:21.720 So I'm keen for I would I'm not an American, but I would love for them to find a solution to this problem.

00:16:28.240 I don't think anybody black, white, Latino, Asian should be gunned down or choked by a police officer totally unnecessarily.

00:16:38.180 I mean, it's interesting with this George Floyd case, because there was a case a few years ago with a white man called Tony Timpa who died in a very, very, very similar situation.

00:16:47.480 no media outrage no protests no rioting no looting no nobody to this day like most people if you say

00:16:54.680 that name most people don't don't know who that is people i was mentioning daniel shaver earlier

00:16:58.940 the most egregious police shooting i've ever seen you know white police officer um white victim

00:17:05.760 totally unjustified and people don't even know these cases right i mean and i used to you know

00:17:13.140 Four or five years ago, I got caught up in this loop too.

00:17:16.760 Right.

00:17:17.180 I was going to ask you about that because you have personal experience of this.

00:17:20.060 Yeah.

00:17:20.320 Oh, I wasn't even going to say, I wasn't even talking about that.

00:17:22.280 We will get to that.

00:17:23.140 All right.

00:17:23.400 Yeah.

00:17:23.700 But I used to also believe the narrative that what was going on in the U.S. with these police killings was primarily and very specifically targeting black people.

00:17:35.460 You used to think that?

00:17:36.300 I used to believe that.

00:17:36.980 Why?

00:17:37.700 Because that's all you see.

00:17:40.220 Even in the U.K.

00:17:41.100 Wait, you were an intelligent educator.

00:17:42.660 You went to Oxford, you look at the data, you think about stuff.

00:17:46.000 I thought you were going to say you look at the Daily Mail.

00:17:48.740 Yeah, well, which stories do you hear about on social media?

00:17:53.880 Which stories do the British press talk about?

00:17:56.040 Have the British press ever covered a white American being killed by the police?

00:18:01.380 He's got privilege, mate.

00:18:03.200 It happens more than black people kill.

00:18:05.160 You wouldn't know that, right?

00:18:06.440 And so because I could name those names, I knew about Philando Castile,

00:18:11.780 Walter Scott, Michael Brown, that one's a different situation. Eric Garner. Eric Garner.

00:18:18.100 I could name these names. Yes, people know the names. And that's what Beyonce, say their name,

00:18:24.760 say their name. And so I sort of got swept into that whole narrative. And I thought, okay, this

00:18:29.840 is very, very specifically targeting black people. And then when I did look at the data, I was like,

00:18:34.600 oh, how come I'm not hearing about the other 70%? That's weird. And I looked into some of

00:18:41.760 cases. I even watched some of the ones that had videos. And I was like, whoa, how do people not

00:18:45.480 know about this? I was like, okay, this is bigger than the scope here is a bigger problem than what

00:18:51.500 I thought it was. This is a state violence on citizens issue. This is a police brutality issue.

00:19:00.080 This is a training issue. This is a not having high enough standards issue. It's not simply

00:19:04.700 a racial issue. And everyone is trying to view it purely through that lens. And I think as long as

00:19:10.100 people are trying to do that, I, you know, I fear that they won't actually be, won't really be

00:19:16.840 resolved properly because that's not, you're diagnosing the wrong problem. And like I said,

00:19:23.720 I think racism can be a part of it and it likely is in some situations. But for example, in the

00:19:28.620 George Floyd killing, people jump straight to the race, the race narrative. We don't yet have any

00:19:35.000 evidence that that was a racially motivated killing. And some people will even get angry

00:19:39.380 me for saying that right how of course zuby it's obvious like what do you mean it's obvious

00:19:43.800 right just because someone a white person kills a black person or vice versa that does not mean

00:19:49.900 it was a racially motivated killing could it be sure it could be but we don't have any we don't

00:19:55.020 have any evidence you know some people and then people say oh well you know he wouldn't have done

00:19:58.800 that to a white guy i'm like i've watched a video of them doing that to a white guy so i don't know

00:20:03.720 i don't know what's in derek chauvin's heart but the idea that this never happens to white people

00:20:09.040 is a lie. It's just wrong. It's factually incorrect. It's ignorant. And so I think

00:20:15.380 people need to be willing to have that whole wider conversation. I feel about this on every

00:20:21.540 issue. People are so bogged down with trying to maintain certain narratives and fit their

00:20:27.280 own confirmation bias and only look at cases which fit their narrative and just cherry

00:20:31.800 pick things. And it makes people feel good and it makes people feel like they're righteous

00:20:37.320 and they can shout at other people who don't want to do the same.

00:20:40.160 But fundamentally, I'm just like, man, we can't have such a myopic view

00:20:43.680 on these issues if we actually do want to resolve them.

00:20:48.180 We've got to be able to talk about the whole picture

00:20:50.400 and speak about this honestly.

00:20:52.420 And what do you think that this particular incident,

00:20:56.700 what do you think the impact it's had on society?

00:20:59.600 Do you think it's been, I mean, it must have had some positive impacts.

00:21:03.000 For instance, one of our friends, he talked about what it was like

00:21:06.320 bit growing up and being black in South London, sharing his experiences, that was really rewarding.

00:21:10.260 You go, oh, I get it. I understand a little bit more. But there's also been some negative

00:21:15.080 things as well, I imagine. Yeah, definitely. I think, yeah, the problem with society right now

00:21:21.740 is that I call it emotional incontinence, right? Like emotions just spray and fly out everywhere

00:21:28.700 in all these directions. And we're really prone to over-corrections and over-reactions, right? And

00:21:36.320 The problem is when it just swings immediately too hard one way or the other.

00:21:42.840 I mean, again, in the light of this killing, there was a rare moment for like 24 hours where everybody, 99 percent of people, Republican, Democrat, black, white, even police officers, were on the same page, which is actually super duper rare.

00:22:00.600 The George Floyd case was actually very, very peculiar.

00:22:03.320 People act like, oh, this is just another one in a string.

00:22:05.520 And I'm like, no, this one is actually, this one's not contentious.

00:22:08.880 This is clear.

00:22:09.900 We've got video.

00:22:11.020 It's not going on what people are saying.

00:22:13.600 Anyone can watch that video.

00:22:15.260 And I'm like, man, if you watch that video and you don't come to the conclusion that that was not totally unjust, you might be a psychopath.

00:22:23.740 Right.

00:22:24.000 It doesn't matter your political views and biases.

00:22:26.260 Even police officers were like, that was out of order.

00:22:29.220 Like, that's not how.

00:22:30.760 Well, it's completely against that training for a stop.

00:22:32.840 Yes, exactly.

00:22:33.500 And we all know that police protect their own, you know, and a lot of, especially in the U.S., especially a lot of sort of more right-leaning conservatives who tend to be very pro-police and tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, even they were like, no, like, no, that's clearly a problem.

00:22:50.940 So it was sort of that watershed moment. And that's why I feel quite dismayed how quickly it went from that agreement to disagreement and chaos. And now people are talking about riots and looting and talking about statues now and talking about it was like, can we keep our eye on the ball for a moment?

00:23:10.140 Like, let's try to resolve this one so that cases like that don't happen again.

00:23:20.240 It's good to be, we should be angry, you should be outraged, but let's channel that in the

00:23:25.320 right direction.

00:23:26.640 And the right direction is not burning down your neighbor's store or looting Target or

00:23:33.280 just causing all this random chaos.

00:23:37.940 And I think with a lot of these issues, what people need to do is sort of take it up a level.

00:23:42.760 I think people get lost in the weeds all the time.

00:23:45.480 And it's like, look, everybody agrees that police brutality is wrong.

00:23:52.760 Everybody agrees that racism is wrong.

00:23:55.920 Okay.

00:23:56.360 So people may differ in what they think are the causes of police brutality or how much

00:24:02.720 institutional or systemic racism exists or what exact the numbers are and the figures are.

00:24:08.920 But look, actually, everyone agrees on the core thing. So there need to be some changes made

00:24:15.160 in the police, right? There needs to be some reformation in terms of the training. Perhaps

00:24:18.620 you need to look at how much these people are getting paid. I think it takes as long to be

00:24:22.840 a police officer as it does to become like a worker in certain shops or it doesn't take a

00:24:29.180 long time. I think you can become a, you know, it might take longer to become a personal trainer

00:24:32.520 than to become a police officer. And that should not be the case, right? If you're going to get a

00:24:36.520 gun and a badge. And keep in mind, in the U.S., everything is escalated because it's such an

00:24:40.420 armed society. So in the U.K., the police can afford to be a bit more chill. In the U.S., they

00:24:47.680 know every time they go out there, they don't know what they're dealing with. Every time they

00:24:51.280 do a traffic stop, that's the most dangerous thing for police to do in America, traffic stops,

00:24:55.740 right? That's the position where most of them get shot.

00:24:58.480 Well, it's like Coleman Hughes said when we had him on last week,

00:25:01.900 a police officer gets shot every day.

00:25:04.200 Every day, yeah.

00:25:04.740 So, of course, they're walking around on edge.

00:25:06.760 They're on edge.

00:25:07.380 And not necessarily wrongly so.

00:25:09.560 Yeah, yeah, they're on edge.

00:25:11.440 And so you need people of a certain character

00:25:14.060 and a certain personality type to begin with.

00:25:16.860 And then you need to reward those people.

00:25:19.120 They need to be compensated well.

00:25:20.660 And they need to be trained very, very well.

00:25:22.160 Well, Zuby's going to be very popular with black people now.

00:25:24.400 He's going to say, give police officers more money.

00:25:27.500 Yeah, that's going to be the title of the episode.

00:25:29.620 Refund the police.

00:25:32.220 This is the reality.

00:25:33.800 This is where it comes to the logic and emotion thing, right?

00:25:37.360 Because some people who are wired a certain way emotionally will take an issue with me saying something like that.

00:25:42.880 But they're not thinking logically, right?

00:25:44.820 If you defund the police or you abolish the police, what is going to happen?

00:25:48.940 And who is it going to hurt the most?

00:25:51.440 It's going to be utopias, Ruby.

00:25:52.500 It's not going to be the rich celebrities who have private security and live in gated communities.

00:25:57.500 and are, you know, it's easy for them to be anti-border walls and anti-guns when they're

00:26:01.580 surrounded by border walls and guns, et cetera. But for the people who are actually in communities

00:26:08.100 with high crime and in places where they can't afford private security and all that kind of

00:26:13.720 stuff, that's where they need the police. You want the police to be good. You want the police to be

00:26:18.160 good. But the idea that you just get rid of them and that's somehow going to, the criminals are

00:26:24.100 just going to stop because there's no police it's like what kind of what kind of logic is that that's

00:26:29.640 that's crazy and you've seen this in different places like when the authority goes when the

00:26:34.080 police goes what happens you get these the bands of militias and you know like vigilantes and stuff

00:26:41.020 and it's like look that's not that's really not the way forward it's very it's very knee-jerk

00:26:45.160 and it seems like right now everything is everything's just running on emotion everything's

00:26:50.600 running on emotion and i can understand that to a degree but as to someone who is very low on the

00:26:56.260 emotional scale i'm kind of like look okay we need some adults in the room and this needs to be

00:27:00.680 discussed honestly openly thoroughly and we can get to the bottom of this i agree with you just

00:27:07.680 to say it's not going to be a problem for me because i'm going to go live in chairs

00:27:10.180 i'm not sure how long you'd last to be honest with you um but i the worry for me is and i think

00:27:19.780 you're absolutely right about finding a constructive way forward the worry the worry for me is how much

00:27:24.700 of this is counterproductive and i'll tell you why because uh when you started talking about

00:27:30.420 george floyd i actually didn't comment on it initially and the reason i didn't comment is

00:27:35.820 i had a friend six or seven years ago who was one of the people who founded or co-founded black

00:27:43.580 lives matter okay and we my wife and i went to visit them around the time of the michael brown

00:27:49.880 shooting and she was talking about it a lot at the time so i thought well we're going to go and

00:27:54.300 spend two weeks with them i better do the reading yeah right because i want to understand what's

00:27:58.420 going on so i read every word of the grand jury in whatever it's called the process that um

00:28:07.060 document no as in like you really didn't help that you just took it down one more level no but

00:28:13.680 i mean you just you read the document from the case it was the the deliberations of the grand

00:28:18.340 jury investigation um and the truth is that the original claim in that situation was hands up

00:28:25.420 don't shoot michael brown was on his knees with his hands in the air pleading for his life having

00:28:29.780 done nothing wrong the reality isn't black witnesses and white witnesses and ballistic

00:28:34.320 evidence and all the evidence in that case showed that he attacked the police officer. He was moving

00:28:39.460 towards the police officer when he was shot, right? So complete mismatch. And so in my mind,

00:28:44.360 I'm like, well, I don't know what's true anymore. So I'm going to be extra careful before I comment

00:28:48.660 on stuff. And that's my worry with a lot of the stuff that you talk about being emotionally

00:28:53.260 incontinent is if you create a narrative and then people find out that big gaps in that narrative

00:28:59.160 aren't accurate, well, people are going to start to doubt the whole narrative.

00:29:03.380 Yeah, that's true.

00:29:04.360 Is that a concern, do you think?

00:29:05.760 Yeah, definitely.

00:29:06.440 I mean, in most cases, I don't speak on stuff immediately.

00:29:09.740 I've learned not to do that.

00:29:11.180 The reason I felt I could and felt compelled to on this one is because of the video.

00:29:16.600 It's so obvious.

00:29:17.440 Right?

00:29:17.860 I watched the whole video.

00:29:19.140 It wasn't edited.

00:29:20.400 It wasn't like I just saw a 20-second clip maybe of just, you know, the picture of, you

00:29:25.340 know, the guy's knee on his neck or something.

00:29:26.900 It's like, no, I watched it.

00:29:28.340 And I was like, okay, there is nothing, there's nothing that can come out here that makes me go, okay, that was justified.

00:29:36.080 Like there's no situation.

00:29:38.580 I've seen other ones where, you know, you don't really see what happens.

00:29:42.500 And those situations, I stay quiet, at least initially, because, you know, one, I don't speak on everything.

00:29:50.360 Like it's too much.

00:29:51.960 But in those ones, it's like, I don't know.

00:29:54.700 Like, let's see, let's see what happens.

00:29:56.820 I think in this social media age, of course, this part of the problem is that there's this rush for people to quickly cast judgments and to get the likes and get the retweets and get the shares by being the first person to just say something and denounce it and probably say something super hyperbolic like, you know, this is this is the reality of black men every day in America.

00:30:15.740 You can't go outside your house without fearing the police and being lynched.

00:30:19.800 And you see people making these kind of statements normally with a blue check and it'll have 100,000 likes and retweets and it gives them some juice.

00:30:26.820 But ultimately, stuff like that doesn't help.

00:30:30.800 It really doesn't help because, you know, and it doesn't help the other way either when you get people who are like so pro-police that the police could like shoot someone in the face who's completely defenseless and they'll still be like, well, you know, this is a statistical anomaly.

00:30:44.180 And it's like, look, that shouldn't happen.

00:30:46.400 There are some things that should never happen.

00:30:48.140 A situation like George Floyd should never happen.

00:30:49.940 100%.

00:30:50.160 You can reduce those to zero, right?

00:30:53.020 There are some cases, you know, majority of police shootings are justified.

00:30:56.460 You know, I don't like to see anybody die in any way.

00:30:59.800 But majority, you don't hear about them.

00:31:02.500 Over 1,000 last year, I think, in the U.S., but you don't hear about them because it was, you know, someone was trying to shoot them or someone was in the middle of committing a felony or something like that.

00:31:12.620 But, yeah, I just, what I miss, this is what I'm all about.

00:31:17.860 I'm about honesty and authenticity.

00:31:19.960 And I wish people would just stop lying.

00:31:22.460 I wish people would kind of just, this goes for so many things.

00:31:26.400 People are not being honest and authentic.

00:31:29.740 The narrative has become more important than the truth.

00:31:32.980 But don't you think we've come to a point in society where if you stand up and tell the truth on a wide range of particular issues, it is not going to end well for you?

00:31:43.980 Well, I think it will in the long term.

00:31:46.360 And I think people are too myopic with this.

00:31:48.380 This is what I was just, funnily enough, talking about on my social media earlier today, which

00:31:52.680 is that in terms of people silencing themselves and no one cancel culture and no one wanting

00:31:57.820 to voice opinions that don't toe certain lines and narratives, it's extremely short-term

00:32:02.820 thinking.

00:32:03.820 It's very, very myopic.

00:32:05.600 And it's like, sure, it might make you feel safe for now, but what about in five years,

00:32:12.380 10 years, 15 years, 20 years?

00:32:13.880 People say, ah, but you know, I've got kids.

00:32:15.440 I'm like, yeah, well, what kind of world do you want your children to inhabit?

00:32:19.560 What kind of society and culture do you want them to grow up?

00:32:21.920 And do you want your children not to be able to express any view or anything in 20 years

00:32:29.140 because we've become so rigid and we've literally got the thought police out there and no one

00:32:36.940 can do anything?

00:32:37.920 No, it's supposed to be a free country.

00:32:39.720 And if you're in a free country that's supposed to have freedom of speech, then people need

00:32:43.300 to exercise that.

00:32:44.740 It can't be taken for granted.

00:32:47.560 So, yeah, sure, you might have to deal with a couple of mobs or, I say mobs, I'm not even talking a real mob.

00:32:55.540 I'm not talking about people coming with pitchforks and burning down your house.

00:32:58.940 Unless you're Dominic Cummings.

00:33:01.180 You know, like that's pretty rare.

00:33:03.040 It's normally like an online thing and it's very temporary.

00:33:06.760 I'm sure you guys have faced this before.

00:33:09.400 And, yeah, you might get some level of professional criticism or, you know, things even in your own family or amongst your friendship might cause certain rifts and things like that.

00:33:19.200 But ultimately, honesty is truly the best policy in the long run.

00:33:24.900 If you look at it, most people, I think, who have been stood by honesty and stood by authenticity and told the truth, whether that's, you know, a huge range of podcasters, whether that's, you know, myself, whether that's, you know, the Jordan Petersons of the world, right?

00:33:40.620 They just stood on their principles.

00:33:42.500 Same with us.

00:33:43.520 But there's a privilege there, and it's not white or black.

00:33:46.580 It's a self-employed privilege, isn't it?

00:33:48.980 Because if you work for an institution or you stock the shelves in Asdaq, there was a guy who got fired from his job in Asdaq.

00:33:57.640 He shared a comedy routine from Billy Connolly about religion.

00:34:01.100 You got fired.

00:34:03.460 I think the reason a lot of people are scared is they're scared that they're going to lose their source of income because they're going to get fired.

00:34:09.680 And people are getting fired left, right, and center over this current discussion.

00:34:14.140 So what do you say to those people?

00:34:15.860 I'd say it's temporary.

00:34:18.100 And I'd say to the people who are not fired, I'd say to everybody else, to society as a whole, we need to stick up for each other.

00:34:24.380 People need to stick up for their friends, for their colleagues, et cetera.

00:34:26.860 If you work in a business and one of your colleagues is under pressure for liking a tweet or sharing a joke or something silly, I'm not talking about something super egregious, then people as a whole, rather than letting that person proverbially catch the bullet,

00:34:45.500 they need to surround that person and support them and say no like talk back to the company because

00:34:51.100 you know companies are run companies are just groups of people right and they're trying to

00:34:55.220 protect their bottom line but everything is rooted in cowardice it's all cowardice it's just collective

00:35:00.680 cowardice it just takes people collectively go you look enough of this this cancel culture stuff

00:35:05.660 like stop like we're not we're not having this right you you can't just de-platform people and

00:35:10.240 fire people and keep you know for having basic because they voted for brexit because they support

00:35:14.840 this because they don't support that, et cetera, that's not what this society is supposed

00:35:19.920 to be like.

00:35:20.920 And it's important for people to not be passive and to actively push back against that and

00:35:24.800 not just expect people like myself, people like yourself, certain people to sort of carry

00:35:30.440 that entire burden and to do the whole thing for them because you can't outsource all elements

00:35:39.940 of courage.

00:35:41.680 And sure, in the short term, the boat might rock a little bit.

00:35:44.860 I don't doubt that.

00:35:45.700 I don't question that.

00:35:46.700 This guy who works in Asda, stacking shelves, in the short term, okay, that kind of sucks.

00:35:52.460 But firstly, I think that wouldn't happen if his colleagues backed him up, right?

00:35:58.580 If people en masse backed him up, I think that wouldn't happen to begin with.

00:36:02.060 Maybe it was just a dick.

00:36:03.820 I don't know the whole story.

00:36:06.240 Finally, we've got a reason to get rid of Jeff.

00:36:08.540 Get him.

00:36:08.900 because it's like

00:36:11.480 you know it's like dominoes

00:36:14.020 yeah right

00:36:14.520 it's this crescendo

00:36:16.860 and it needs to reverse back

00:36:19.760 the other way

00:36:21.160 because the vast majority of people

00:36:23.520 who feel like this

00:36:24.220 who feel cowed

00:36:24.960 who feel like they can't speak

00:36:25.900 we're not talking about people

00:36:27.300 who have like legitimately

00:36:28.700 like extreme

00:36:29.920 we're not talking about actual Nazis

00:36:31.700 and actual fascists

00:36:32.680 we're just you know

00:36:33.320 oh I voted Brexit

00:36:34.620 oh actually I voted Boris Johnson

00:36:36.900 you know

00:36:37.860 or i i believe this or i believe that oh you know i've had people who just they're they're just

00:36:42.600 christian you know what i mean it's like yeah i'm a christian but like i can't really i'm like what

00:36:48.280 do you what's going on like this is not some you know it it's it's bizarre it's it's very very

00:36:56.060 strange and it's not just in the uk like when i was in the u.s last year i kept having the same

00:37:00.640 conversation with people because i did meetups in different cities and i had people you know

00:37:04.260 whether they were students at university or, you know, they were working at this job or working

00:37:08.240 there or people in entertainment. And they're just like, man, like, you know, this is kind of

00:37:13.020 speaking in whispers almost. I'm kind of like, guys, this is not, this is not sustainable. And

00:37:17.920 I'm glad you're, I'm glad you appreciate me being someone who speaks up and who tells the truth,

00:37:23.820 but I'm just one person. I'm one guy. And I'm not, I'm not even the best person in the position to

00:37:31.700 do this. I think some people think I've just got like, you know, multi millions in my bank account

00:37:35.420 and so I can kind of do it. It's like, no, that's not the case. I just believe in honesty and

00:37:40.460 authenticity. I don't put all of my thoughts out there. I'm not saying you have to, you have to go

00:37:43.560 like super crazy, but if it's a basic, a basic principle, look at what's been happening with

00:37:50.320 JK Rowling recently, right? On one hand, there's a bit of schadenfreude because she's catered so

00:37:56.480 hard to that audience and sort of helped to create this beast that's now trying to eat her.

00:38:00.240 but at the same time it's like yeah big up to her because she just is stating she's stating a fact

00:38:06.600 she's stating truth um and even if she were just stating her opinion she's in she's entitled to

00:38:12.260 that right and it's like what kind of world are we living in where a woman says that people who

00:38:19.600 menstruate are called women and this is some huge controversy Nazis come in many different shapes

00:38:28.380 misinformed like what is that that's crazy and that's going to get worse if people don't and

00:38:33.640 one thing i i would say as well on the jake around anything i think it's really important

00:38:37.980 for all of us who are on the side of honest discussion and whether you agree with her

00:38:43.520 frankly or not just whether you're interested in in having a conversation versus just canceling

00:38:48.140 people if you don't agree you might want to check biology i know i know i know i'm trying to keep

00:38:53.380 abroad man and keep people in the boat and you're just like get out get out of the boat

00:38:57.600 but i guess what i'm saying is the schadenfreude i can totally understand we had graham lindahan

00:39:04.920 on the show who you know he was involved in canceling people yeah significantly and we were

00:39:10.920 very happy to have him on the show and jk rowling the same we're trying to get her on as well because

00:39:16.280 when people let go of that mentality we have to welcome them in and we have to say you've let go

00:39:22.840 of that you're welcome yeah yeah we welcome you you're not out in in the desert because of your

00:39:28.140 past behavior you you fucked up in the past you did you made mistakes but now you get to come back

00:39:34.100 into civil society and have a conversation with people i think that's really important that

00:39:38.300 forgiveness that we always talk about yeah i know you're big on it we're big on it we actually have

00:39:42.500 to practice it as well yeah definitely yeah i'm i'm with you 100 on that and um and just it's

00:39:47.980 funny it's like in some ways it feels like being liberal has become a conservative position

00:39:53.120 yeah yeah and and it's odd i mean there are people who call themselves liberal and you know

00:40:00.420 that's how they identify and i'm like i am more liberal than you in terms of actually like

00:40:06.800 upholding the value what are classically liberal things freedom of speech ability of people to to

00:40:13.460 dissent, to meet and talk to who they want, to not be sort of ostracized permanently for

00:40:20.080 their views or their opinions, all this kind of stuff. There's tons of stuff in the world I do

00:40:25.020 not agree with. There's a lot of stuff I do not agree with. But people have a right to their

00:40:30.620 views. They have a right to their opinions. I would never try to de-platform someone off of

00:40:35.220 social media or come for their job or try to cut out their sponsor because they said something in

00:40:41.200 a podcast, I disagree. That's crazy. How can you support anything along those lines and consider

00:40:47.940 yourself liberal? I mean, it's bonkers. And people are waking up to this. Like I said,

00:40:54.700 people are waking up. I just think that collectively, and I do try to give people

00:40:59.180 courage and encourage people in different ways to just be like, hey, whatever situation you're in,

00:41:06.480 if you're in school, if you're at university, if you're, you know, in your workplace, just online,

00:41:12.220 et cetera, just be willing to, you know, if you, even if I don't agree with your, all of your

00:41:19.020 principles or values, right, just, you have a right to them. And that's okay to, to express them. And

00:41:25.840 I'm on your side, I'm on the side of anyone who can agree to that basic tenet. It's, it's really

00:41:33.320 that simple. But Zuby, you were talking about cowardice, and there's something I want to focus

00:41:37.280 on in particular, because I don't think it's just the cowardice of individuals. I also think it's

00:41:40.980 cowardice of the press. Yes, yes, you're right. And you know, you see that with the Black Life

00:41:45.560 Matter demonstration, Dominic Cummings, you know, evil, get rid of him, destroy him, let's literally

00:41:50.400 burn his house. But then everyone goes out on a mass demonstration during a pandemic, and suddenly

00:41:54.960 that's okay. And I'm like, is it? Am I racist for thinking it might not be? No. And a week,

00:42:00.440 it's not like it happened 10 years ago

00:42:02.700 and the standards of society have changed.

00:42:04.960 It's literally last week.

00:42:07.240 I mean, just yesterday, I don't know,

00:42:08.960 I can't remember what, was it NBC?

00:42:10.580 It was one of the US newspapers, Twitter.

00:42:13.560 And an hour before, they were talking in happy terms

00:42:17.820 about thousands of people gathering

00:42:19.280 for Black Trans Lives Matter rally and demonstration.

00:42:24.100 Thousands of people, you know, you can see the pictures.

00:42:26.240 And then an hour later, the same account tweeted,

00:42:29.600 condemning the fact that Trump was going to restart his rallies

00:42:34.480 and that health experts are saying that this is a terrible idea.

00:42:38.740 Within an hour, the same account.

00:42:41.360 And you're just like, come on, dude.

00:42:43.560 Come on, you know.

00:42:44.600 And it's just, you're totally right.

00:42:47.420 When I'm talking about cowardice and I'm talking about honesty

00:42:50.380 and I'm talking about authenticity, I'm speaking across the board.

00:42:53.840 I'm talking to individuals.

00:42:55.120 I'm talking to the media.

00:42:56.660 I'm talking to corporations.

00:42:58.200 I'm talking to world leaders.

00:42:59.600 if everyone just told the truth or at least tried to, so stuff would just be so much better.

00:43:08.560 Right. Just just do that and allow other people to do the same, be willing to have conversations

00:43:13.380 and just actually be liberal in the in the in the proper sense of that word. And it'll also,

00:43:19.820 you know, one thing that part of the reason why I feel compelled to to do what I do and to talk

00:43:25.500 to people on all sides, et cetera. I get quite a lot of, sometimes, not that often, some people

00:43:31.100 give me a little bit of flack because, you know, I will talk to people across the board. And some

00:43:36.020 people are like, oh, you shouldn't be talking to those MAGA people or you shouldn't be talking

00:43:39.780 that. I'm like, look, guys, firstly, don't tell me who I should talk to because you don't own me

00:43:44.760 and I'm my own man. And I'm not telling you who to talk to. So like, you know, courtesy.

00:43:49.140 And then secondly, it's like, you want to understand people, right?

00:43:54.620 You want to, whether I disagree, agree, disagree, right?

00:43:57.500 If I meet a raging communist, I want to talk to you too, because I'm like, why are you,

00:44:01.840 you know, what's going on here, right?

00:44:03.760 We need to talk to each other and understand each other, even if you still disagree.

00:44:08.360 And then ultimately, and then also, this is the one that I don't think people talk about

00:44:11.740 a lot is it's important to keep people remotely moderated and to stop people from people are

00:44:19.360 already fracturing. You hear a lot of people talk about political polarization and division. And

00:44:23.300 if you don't want that to get like really bad, you need to hold the middle. The middle needs

00:44:30.080 to be held, whether someone considers themselves like a, you know, a conservative or liberal or

00:44:35.140 centrist or moderate libertarian, all these people, we need to hold the middle, right? We

00:44:41.020 may have differing views between us, but we're all sort of in the same tent. So that needs to

00:44:45.780 be held because otherwise people run off in more extreme directions, right? If you refuse to talk

00:44:52.800 to anybody here or you refuse to talk to anybody there, then the only people they'll talk to are,

00:44:58.940 you know, the people who might be a little bit more radical than them, a little bit more radical

00:45:02.460 than them. And then that's how people end up sort of drifting off. And as you guys were saying,

00:45:07.100 if you don't offer people a way back in, right?

00:45:10.800 Then think of the people

00:45:13.160 who have been kicked off of social media, right?

00:45:16.080 Permanently.

00:45:16.620 People are just kicked off of social media,

00:45:18.240 cut their PayPal, cut their funding.

00:45:20.840 Don't let them do this.

00:45:21.840 Don't let them have a bank account.

00:45:23.920 Do you think that's going to moderate them?

00:45:27.900 That's when you're going to,

00:45:29.160 that person is now likely,

00:45:31.300 that's the person you now need to keep an eye on

00:45:32.940 because who are the people who are going to be like,

00:45:34.900 oh, come talk to us.

00:45:35.980 You know, we'll talk to you. It's going to be the other people who already are, you know, not beyond the pale, but more radical and more extreme in certain ways.

00:45:48.500 And that's literally how people get, that's how people get, that's how people get radicalized.

00:45:54.220 And also it's just, it's also just not kind. It's not fair.

00:45:57.980 if you want to we talk a lot about kindness and fairness and tolerance and diversity but rather

00:46:04.720 than just paying lip service to these things think about what they really mean and actually

00:46:09.020 try to act on them and it's not kind to cut someone's funding and get them fired from their

00:46:16.640 job and make sure that they can never live and eat again or feed their children because they said

00:46:23.540 something you don't like or maybe they genuinely maybe they genuinely cocked up right maybe they

00:46:27.540 genuinely did something bad right but should now they have to suffer and they they can't they can't

00:46:35.540 do anything now it's like come on that's not what kind of society does that to people how much of it

00:46:41.480 is about the fact that certain groups have changed the meaning of words because if you convince

00:46:50.540 people that if I if you say look up biology if you don't agree with JK Rowling yeah that is quote

00:46:57.680 unquote erasing the existence of trans people yeah or if you criticize the Black Lives Matter

00:47:03.700 organization you're erasing or committing violence against black people yeah or and I you know we can

00:47:11.220 go down the whole list you know if you don't agree that the gender pay gap is what people say then

00:47:15.760 you're hurting women like what like you can go down the list right so we have become convinced

00:47:22.080 now that silence is like silence is violence speaking is violence but violence isn't violence

00:47:28.820 right if it's by the right person if it's by the right person so how much of this is about the fact

00:47:33.600 that very sneakily these people have substituted meanings for words they know that don't apply at

00:47:39.300 all yeah sure like i don't like to use the terms the left and the right but the left broadly

00:47:44.700 speaking is very, very good at this. Very, very good at changing the language and controlling

00:47:49.240 the net, the language and controlling the parameters in which people speak. It's incredibly

00:47:53.540 clever. Um, and it's, it's been happening for many, many, many decades and people need to wake up to

00:48:00.140 that and not play the game. There are a lot of words in terms I do. I refuse to use. I just don't

00:48:05.420 use them because I'm never going to call someone a cis man or a cis woman. I'm never going to use

00:48:10.820 the term violence in relation to something that's not actual violence. I'm never going to,

00:48:19.120 what are some other terms that are used, right? I refuse to, you know, bastardize the English

00:48:25.180 language to fit people's ideology because I know why it's done and it's just done,

00:48:30.820 it's a weapon, it's a tool, right? It's a tool, right? Because if you can control people, it's

00:48:34.460 1984. If you can control people's words and language, you can ultimately control their

00:48:40.580 thought and you can move the Overton window so that someone now saying something benign like

00:48:47.540 there are only two genders can now be deemed as violence or hate speech or an attack or an erasure

00:48:53.660 of people's existence right and they always go from zero to 100 real quick right if you just

00:48:58.420 you're mildly critical of something and suddenly you want to erase someone's existence and you

00:49:02.480 don't think they should be allowed to it's like whoa hang on hang on hang on didn't say any of

00:49:08.480 that. And so people need to not play the game, right? Just not play that game. If there's words

00:49:15.680 or terminology and things you don't agree with, or someone is trying to redefine the meaning of

00:49:21.920 a word, right? Someone says racist, and they're trying to convince you that it means, you know,

00:49:26.640 that black people can't be racist. Only white people can be racist because racism is now

00:49:30.360 privilege. Plus power. Yeah. It's discrimination plus power. And if you don't have the institute,

00:49:37.200 Don't play that game.

00:49:39.160 Don't just say, no, that's BS.

00:49:40.760 That's nonsense.

00:49:41.360 That's not what it is.

00:49:41.940 But don't you also think that there's a lot of people

00:49:44.320 who do very, very well out of propagating this narrative?

00:49:47.540 It's an industry.

00:49:48.920 Worth billions.

00:49:50.380 Worth billions.

00:49:51.500 You should get in on it, man.

00:49:54.900 The grievance industry,

00:49:57.160 whether that's corporate feminism

00:50:00.460 or it's corporate race baiting,

00:50:03.680 and politicians, right?

00:50:05.680 That's how they get votes.

00:50:06.920 Because again, like I said, most people have this herd mentality.

00:50:10.140 So it's easy to dupe people.

00:50:12.920 You know, if you're a politician and you speak in a certain way and you play the identity

00:50:17.980 politics game, then they do it because it works.

00:50:22.960 And I don't know how I can get this message out there, but I'm like, it shouldn't, people

00:50:29.880 shouldn't let it work on them, right?

00:50:32.100 If a politician gets up tomorrow and they just start talking all this stuff about people of color and, you know, black people and white supremacy and dismantling the patriarchy or whatever, that doesn't work on me.

00:50:45.220 I'm like, what are you talking about?

00:50:46.400 Like, you're just speaking nonsense, right?

00:50:47.960 You're just trying to pander to certain demographics and certain people.

00:50:51.200 And actually, that's what I find offensive.

00:50:53.040 I'm like, I find it offensive if you think I'd fall for that.

00:50:55.760 You see what I mean?

00:50:56.900 But unfortunately, a lot of people do.

00:50:59.000 It does work on them.

00:50:59.940 And you get people saying like, oh, well, they said they'll do this.

00:51:05.940 They mentioned my demographic in the thing.

00:51:08.020 So that means that they're supportive.

00:51:10.180 And I'm like, look, none of us should play this game.

00:51:12.160 And again, if that game can be played one way, it can be played any way.

00:51:16.900 This is the thing, right?

00:51:17.780 I'm very much an equalist.

00:51:19.800 So what concerns me as well with some of the identity politics being played on one side

00:51:24.780 is like, okay, y'all might think that's all good now.

00:51:27.020 But what is now the argument against the white nationalists?

00:51:30.720 I've spoken to black people, and they'll be saying some of their opinions on some of this stuff.

00:51:36.000 And I'm like, dude, you're literally saying the exact same thing that white nationalists did.

00:51:41.180 You're literally saying the same thing, right?

00:51:43.080 Especially when people start talking about separatism, right?

00:51:47.220 Or people talk about only supporting black businesses or doing this or definitely not marrying outside of your race, etc.

00:51:54.380 I'm like, this is literally the same thing white nationalists say.

00:51:58.140 So unless, I mean, if you think they're right, okay, fair enough.

00:52:01.680 Y'all can have your, you know, white conda and Wakanda or whatever.

00:52:05.900 But, you know, for the rest of us who are quite happy to live in a multiracial, multiethnic, harmonious society and don't really care about all that stuff, we don't want to be caught in that crossfire.

00:52:18.180 And I think that's the thing.

00:52:21.120 You know, every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

00:52:23.400 So if people are going to get like super duper on the, say, the black identity train and bandwagon, you then don't have, you can't really say anything if a fringe group of, say, white people went off and, you know, wanted to form their own white identity, white power movement.

00:52:43.060 Because, you know, without being a hypocrite, you then can't criticize.

00:52:47.060 If they're like, well, that's not a problem.

00:52:50.380 Yeah, but it's like, well, they're saying black power.

00:52:52.440 they're saying only buy from black businesses they're saying you know don't intermarry etc

00:52:56.360 you know that's that's what they're saying and it can't be like oh well that one's bad

00:53:00.980 and that one's okay because it all falls apart so again i think people need to think

00:53:06.500 people need to think more deeply about this stuff brother i agree with you but that's why i'm not

00:53:11.460 optimistic about what's happening right now because i just that's what i see coming yeah

00:53:15.380 do you think that's coming i don't i don't know man i'm i'm generally an optimist by nature

00:53:22.180 I'm generally an optimist by nature.

00:53:23.660 And as I said, I think, you know, 90% of the people in the middle of this, you know, 90% in the middle are decent.

00:53:31.780 This is also why I don't like this narrative of people trying to say that, you know, that's, you know, I don't like it when people say things like the UK is a racist country.

00:53:42.080 You know, I don't, again, I don't, and then people get mad at me for not liking that.

00:53:46.420 But it's like, I don't like that because you are painting a lot of people who I know are good, decent people who are not racist.

00:53:56.180 You're just saying, if you say the UK as a whole or like British society as a whole is that, it's like, well, you're kind of talking about all of us, right?

00:54:04.480 So if that's not the case, then please word your stuff.

00:54:09.440 I'm not trying to language police people, but word yourself a bit more carefully, right?

00:54:14.360 If you say that there's a difference between saying there is racism in Britain and saying Britain is a racist country.

00:54:21.920 Those are different statements.

00:54:23.100 The first one's like, yeah, of course, right?

00:54:24.680 There are racist people everywhere.

00:54:26.020 But suggesting that Britain as a whole is racist in 2020 is it's damning a lot of people.

00:54:33.920 And it's just not.

00:54:36.080 But even in 1820, not everybody was racist, right?

00:54:39.680 There were people fighting for the rights of slaves, et cetera.

00:54:42.060 so that's the thing

00:54:43.500 you can't just make

00:54:44.520 these generalized statements

00:54:45.460 about anything

00:54:46.260 no

00:54:46.800 and that's why

00:54:48.240 it's important

00:54:48.800 that you're getting

00:54:50.260 that message

00:54:50.820 of people need to be honest

00:54:51.860 and accurate

00:54:52.360 which is what you're really saying

00:54:53.380 yeah

00:54:53.580 it's really important

00:54:55.360 but listen man

00:54:56.260 it's great to have you back

00:54:57.180 and keep putting your voice out there

00:54:59.220 you inspire lots of people

00:55:00.620 and then they inspire others

00:55:02.440 and so on

00:55:02.940 and that's what we try

00:55:03.840 and do as well

00:55:04.240 so thanks for coming back on

00:55:05.280 most welcome

00:55:05.800 we've got one more question for you

00:55:07.440 and it's the one

00:55:08.520 we always finish with

00:55:09.500 which is

00:55:10.360 what is the one thing

00:55:11.180 that we're not talking about but we really should be wow uh give me a second yeah last time he kept

00:55:17.640 it light and said abortions yeah so let's see what comes out with this time wow he's gonna double

00:55:22.940 down on it abortion part two um i think we should talk more about family family and the importance

00:55:33.440 of family and family structures i think one of the biggest problems facing the west i think the

00:55:37.880 biggest problem actually is rooted in family. I think the biggest problem is lack of, lack of

00:55:43.200 fathers, whether they're absent or just, you know, bad parenting. I think a lot of what we're seeing

00:55:49.180 now is the result of decades of letting that family structure disintegrate in many ways and

00:55:57.240 not have any standards around that. So I think there needs to be more honest talk and discussion

00:56:02.660 about, you know, men and women in society and relationships and marriage and family and children

00:56:10.940 and raising that next generation. I think that, again, I think political correctness often gets

00:56:18.700 in the way of this. And we're living in this time when there aren't supposed to be, it's kind of

00:56:23.320 like there aren't even supposed to be any standards. It's just kind of like, well, every

00:56:26.660 family structure is the same and just do whatever. And we know that that's not the case. If someone

00:56:31.820 likes data you can even you can look at the data on that and you can you can see the reality of it

00:56:35.860 there's nothing worse than not having a father for you it's it's a big big big problem and a lot

00:56:40.560 of the stuff we talk about i think is is rooted in that so i'd like to i'd love to see society

00:56:45.080 speaking about that more honestly and openly and again if you want to talk about you know the

00:56:50.820 slogan black lives matter and you're talking about some of the problems in some of those

00:56:55.560 communities specifically especially in america so much of it is rooted in fatherlessness and

00:57:01.340 people being misguided along those lines so ultimately if we want to fix that problem

00:57:05.500 then i think we need to talk about that that's really important message man thank you for coming

00:57:10.220 back if people want to follow you they go to add zuby music on twitter and just tell everybody you

00:57:15.940 know you've got a podcast as well yep sure um my podcast real talk with zuby is available on all

00:57:20.860 platforms um youtube spotify apple podcasts you can also find my music on all digital platforms

00:57:27.740 Just search for Zuby and you can find me on all social media, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube at Zuby Music.

00:57:34.880 All right. Thanks, guys. Thanks for watching.

00:57:36.440 Make sure you go and follow Zuby and we'll see you very soon with another brilliant episode.

00:57:40.680 Take care and see you soon, guys.

00:57:57.740 Thank you.

TRIGGERnometry - June 24, 2020

Zuby - The Problem with Black Lives Matter

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