Bail Reform, Crime, and Canada’s Prison Capacity Crisis
Episode Stats
Harmful content
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Summary
On this episode of the Crime Update, Mike and Paul take a deeper dive on a topic that was covered in our Crime Update last week: how many homicide victims are released from custody while on bail or conditional release. In fact, a third of those released on bail commit homicide.
Transcript
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Yeah, we knew we needed bail reform, but did anybody know that we needed it to the point where all we're trying to do is hit the obvious points to protect ourselves?
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No violent offenders out there. Nobody can provide surety who's got a crime.
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If you've got a history of violence, if this crime is a violent crime, I mean, really, these seem like very basic points, Paul.
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That's tplmedia.ca, tplmedia.ca slash local if we're in your town.
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So take a look and see local content as well as the national podcasts that we do.
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And today we're taking a deeper dive on a topic that we started during our crime update last week.
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I recommend you subscribe and follow along with the crime update
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because every week we give sort of an overview of what's going on crime-wise across the country.
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And this was on that list to talk more about it.
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When I say joining me, really, I'm joining you because you've taken a deep dive on bail
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reform, which is what we're talking about today.
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The Fed's dropped it about a week and a half ago now, and we're going to take a closer
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Yeah, just before they go on summer vacation, you know, on the 18th, they dropped this C-14,
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um which is very interesting because it really prompted my uh research onto how many people have
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committed homicides on bail oh yeah so i dove into it i was very curious an interesting starting
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point yeah you know and i so i went back i started diving i'm looking at trying to find 25 stats
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trying to find 24 none trying to find 23 guess when the last time we reported the number of
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people on bail that committed a homicide no idea 2022 there were 256 individuals charged with
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homicide while on bail or conditional release accounting for 30 percent of the cases that year
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that's incredible yeah and we just stopped we just dropped that stat well of course it got too high
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yeah you know and that happens you know recently i don't know if you've followed this but
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stats canada laid off a bunch of people so what happens with stats canada as you look at kind of
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the ebb and flow of uh employment as soon as the stat becomes too difficult for the government to
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deal with we just lay off that group or lay out that division and then off it goes that watchdog
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is now gone right so if you look at it we have about we have about uh 2025 we had 788 victims
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to homicide okay so it's roughly stayed fairly flat you know it's uh 1.91 per 100 000 population
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which it's funny when we do report the number everyone always says oh that's a low number
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compared to the u.s which is roughly three point something okay compare that to the u.s for me
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it's half okay right so if you look at it we're roughly half of what the u.s is so that's the
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stat we always throw on the table but we don't focus on the fat fact that the number includes
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a third of the people that are out on bail that do commit the crimes of murder so and you know
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then i then i went back and i actually looked and and you know the one that came to mind the
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one that popped up was one that i think pierre polyev um always refers to and this is the the
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a young lady in uh in Brampton that's killed by her partner who was out on gun charges so he was
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given bail he had a violent past he was given bail um and uh it's Paul Henderson and Flo Bellman
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uh basically he's saying that the court protected um this person let them out they committed the
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crime they were mad that they were in there for partner violence got out and shot their daughter
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and you know we just hear that time and time again and you know being familiar with peel
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i went dug into it and i said okay what happened out of that like what was the result of that
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well the the police uh crew or the police chiefs from peel all came together and they came up with
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set of recommendations and this was took a while was in 2025 um you know and it was interesting
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because the recommendations were review and expand reverse onus provisions for bail in cases involving
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uh violent crime serious offenses and organized crime these are these offenses include car thefts
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home invasion human trafficking and drug smuggling they wanted to actually have more money into jails
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and policing well that made sense because they know there's a backlog um and basically uh they
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wanted to prioritize victim safety in bail and release decisions right so that's currently not
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in there which we're going to talk about in a minute because prior to c14 your ability to get
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bail was based on the definitions it's uh three categories right and so they didn't have that in
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there which i thought was just bizarre in my mind in in the new reform version of this bill
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that this that's been put forward it's interesting because i took a look back and in just in march
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alone the conservatives put forward bills that are very very um i i would say really more detailed
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than what came out in this bail reform i'll give you one bill c-246 make sure sexual predators
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receive consecutive sentences so each offense is recognized and punished that was thrown out uh bill
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c-220 uh end leniency for non-citizens convicted of serious crimes and ensure deportation instead
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of special treatment that one got voted down bill c-243 stop yearly parole hearings that force
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victims families to relive the trauma again and again jail not bail so just even those three in
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the last year prior and of course i think i recall when pauliev came out with this these suggestions
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on the basis of the recommendations of the chiefs of police i i think that at that point the liberals
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were like don't worry about it we're already working on something they did they did every
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time he was either before or after them but you know mike and i don't know if you mentioned it
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274 did you call up 27 because i know that wasn't on my list because it's a little earlier
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so 274 this is the one that died on the order paper right it created a strict rule where anyone
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accused of three or more serious crimes crimes that carry a maximum penalty of five years or
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more would automatically presume to need jail while awaiting making bail highly unlikely for
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chronic offenders and the liberals said to that that's a hollow statement it's not even a it's
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not even law it's a very specific thing three strikes and you're out is a pretty consistent
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law in a lot of countries now right so the you know here you had the conservatives putting very
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specific motions in bills and putting them up and putting them up and putting them up so waiting
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waiting and the whole time as you mentioned the liberal government's saying it's coming it's
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coming so sean frazier right yeah uh he's the minister in charge of this now sean has a lot of
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interesting portfolios that he looked at immigration housing that he he made a horrific
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mess out of and i think has been duly noted with a lot of people you know he's been given this file
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and so he kept saying you know it's coming it's coming well it came just before they left for
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summer vacation and it arrived do you mind me mentioning it arrived on a friday late in the day
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yeah there's something to that i'm sorry but if you're expecting the media to cover something
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that's not the time of the week and the time of day that you do it you do that to avoid scrutiny
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yeah oh yeah for sure now c14 can we spend a few minutes because those people right i need to
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unravel that yeah so uh it makes bail harder to get for those accused of repeat and violent
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offending by creating new reverse onus rules in certain cases meaning the accused must show why
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they should be released right right that sounds great you know when i read it it's funny i've
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read this a couple times now you know the other day on the crime show and i've read it in prep
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and then i read it in prep again today i'm reading it and i'm thinking okay that sounds good
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however it it also requires first of all yeah it sounds okay because it's the first thing that they
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it's the headline yeah yeah violent criminals won't get out on bail they need to prove it to
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us and okay continue on into this yeah directs police to detain and accused for a bail hearing
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when it is necessary to protect public the public including victims and witnesses
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makes sense right oh of course yeah no another great headline the things that we really expect
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our government and our law enforcement already to do requires courts to consider more factors
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at bail hearings whether the allegations involve violence
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for walking down the street, then that must be considered.
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Requires courts to consider whether the accused
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but I'm going to go back into where we're coming from.
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where we were coming from before so in the in the uh the the legislation that's in place now
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um for just another 30 days till the new legislation gets enacted this c14 didn't
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require that right so which is odd to me that you wouldn't look at that you wouldn't ask the
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question so now you have to ask that question it seemed by the way if you don't mind me saying
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that seems ridiculous already that we for so many years just handled it that way and i think people
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don't even understand how bail works in this country we'll touch on that i'm sure requires
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courts to consider weapons bans in most cases yeah you can't carry a weapon after you no really get
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out okay wow so that requires courts to look more closely at an accused bail plan when a reverse
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onus applies right so we're gonna we'll jump into it for a minute but uh in the current system if you
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uh think that you're not going to get bail or you're going to get denied bail you go to a lawyer
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and you actually get the lawyer to create a bail plan the bail plan sets out you know you agree to
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an ankle blazing on your leg you agree to not carrying a gun you all those things um it prohibits
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courts from naming anyone as a surety uh who was convicted of a serious crime in the past 10 years
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so this just seems like a no-brainer right like you know i can't how badly have we managed this
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that common sense simple common sense checkbox points are have been missed for so long i mean
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that's in many ways to me the biggest topic here yeah we knew we needed bail reform but did anybody
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know that we needed it to the point where all we're trying to do is hit the obvious points to
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protect ourselves no violent offenders out there nobody can provide surety who's got a crime if
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you've got a history of violence if this crime is a violent crime i mean really these seem like very
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basic points paul they do they do well and the interesting part they're all in these bills that
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have actually been denied or turned down or said just wait it's coming i almost think the specificity
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of these ones was too much yeah for our government to get on side with now it has tougher sentencing
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laws too it requires consecutive sentences for violent auto theft and break and enter right which
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doesn't exist today okay that's also wild requires consecutive sentences for extortion and arson
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okay requires judges to consider interesting sorry arson and extortion two topics that we
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consistently have on our crime shows oh yeah every week every week this one was overdue yeah oh yeah
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well we waited we waited since well we started hearing about it through covet remember right
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that became all the thing yeah requires judges to consider consecutive sentences for repeat violent
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offending which i actually thought was in place i thought so too yeah anyways but uh well that's
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my point we've we let it go to the point where you know if you do something highly unlikely
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and i show up as a surety also highly unlikely yep there was no guarantee that i was going to
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even monitor you in any way there's no guarantee previously or up to this point that i don't have
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a crime that i'm i've got outstanding on the books so a criminal could get another criminal
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out of jail till trial seems like an incredibly wild scenario well right now the criminal code
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mandates uh that the bail judges can basically consider three factors um there's the primary
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secondary and tertiary grounds okay the primary grounds uh do you they the judge looks for do you
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have ties to the existing jurisdiction and what they're trying to find is there a flee issue yeah
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you know you're not going to attend court so do you have a history of not coming so when you commit
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that crime and you go there to get your bail they'll ask you a set of questions you know uh
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where do you live do you have ties do you have family do you have it they'll look at your your
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history to say do you have a history of not showing up for your bail hearings um is there
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an evidence that you could flee or that you have the means to flee right right we always hear about
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that right the second one which is interesting are are you likely to endanger public safety
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or interfere with the administration of justice while on bail that's a tertiary that's a tertiary
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uh secondary that's a secondary okay it's a secondary one so okay it seems like a primary
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one but okay so they they asked you do you have a criminal record do you have a history of not
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complying with your bail conditions relationship uh with the deceased or do you have uh have you
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made three threats to witnesses in the past okay so they look at all those things um
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you know the strength of the prosecution against you so whether or not you know they have
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good evidence that you if it's were you holding the smoking gun yeah is it a shut and dry case
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right yeah um and then last the last one the third one they consider which again is very interesting
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would your release offend a reasonable member of the public oh so that's the gauge that they use
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would a reasonable member of the public be okay with you being out on bail yeah so now they have
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to determine it's not joe who calls i guess so so now a reasonable member so they have to define
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the it's up to the judge to define what he considers a reasonable public member yeah so if
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he says i don't think the guy joe who calls the radio show ranting and raving is reasonable
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therefore he says he ups the standard so the gravity of the crime the strength of the prosecution's
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case uh whether they had a firearm so those are the things that they look at and then they create
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a bail plan right right so after these three factors they actually sit down and then they
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start to negotiate and they talk about who will supervise you where you live restrictions on your
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address curfews gps bracelets uh restrictions of phone and internet prohibitions of operating a car
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um who you can actually communicate with so you don't go communicating with the witnesses
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so they create that list they create a plan your lawyer takes it and then
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basically the judge determines if you get out okay and so that's what exists today
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okay yeah it sounds a little loose to be honest with you in a lot of ways based on bill c14 and
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the number of new things they've introduced that we thought were in here and they were doing already
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yeah right it seems like it was a pretty loose shoe oh sure well you know we just went through
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it quite frankly uh if we're now looking at uh reverse onus we're looking at uh
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accused bail hearings necessary to protect the public and and the feds are passing this down
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this is not this is not a federal this is not just for federal cases the fed the the government
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has said okay provinces you got this this one's on you here's the guidelines by which you're going
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to operate but now it's in your court no no pun intended yeah go and enact this yes this sounds
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like it could break pretty i hate to be down on bail reform i just want the right bail reform just
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like anybody but this seems like it could break between ottawa and any of the provinces because
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they have to be retrained this sounds like more uh more strain on the court system that is already
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really under a lot of stress right it sounds like we're going to need more places to incarcerate
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people yes which were already short on it feels like my first blush opinion and i maybe you'll
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set me straight on this that the government went not our problem that's what this bill reform feels
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like to us we made an election promise you guys go and deal with it here's the terms yeah make
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sure it's reverse onus and you have to define it now right so you have to come out and you have to
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you have to not only define it you have to then define it train it for consistency
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you know how hard that's going to be like seriously like think about it so so now what
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do they call that that precedence uh everything's going to be based on precedence and interpretation
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of this law and judges are going to be drawing on it now we've got before we even get to trial we
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have a caseload just for bail yeah i wonder what the i wonder what the hybrid is on this one
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what the hybrid well to me you know listen when they said reverse onus to me i thought that we
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would actually open something up and we'd see a plan of you know you have to uh if you uh created
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uh if you murdered someone if you use the gun if you like here are the you know the weapons and
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everything if you use those you don't get bail like you know these are the things that you know
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there'd be a point system that would actually make it almost impossible because you get five
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points if you know you uh uh you had pre-meditation you'd get you know six points if you use the gun
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you get if that's not how they're doing it paul that's how they should be doing it well you think
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so there'd be a scoring mechanism to determine a point system and if it's over that point system
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and then you would create a set of training for the judges that they could actually figure out
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how to use the point system so therefore you can create a precedent that was consistent across all
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the all the provinces but not this no well the feds don't the feds didn't drop anything with it
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no they said they're going to give a guideline yeah of what's acceptable and not acceptable but
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then they're going to leave it in the hands of judges do we even have enough judges i don't
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think we do who are going to then decide whether or not we can put somebody in jail into incarceration
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into a system that doesn't have enough beds for prisoners already so what the feds have done is
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said make it harder and by the way we're not making it easier for you that's what i found i
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saw that they put 3.9 billion aside for prisons in ontario oh wow okay i didn't know that but the
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3.9 billion really needs to go to restoring and retrofitting the ones that we already have
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and we are so over i think that we are 2400 uh prisoners more than we can handle in our
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prison system now yeah what do we do with this paul well with more people not getting well
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here's the thing optically it looks like more people aren't going to get bail right but right
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now based on the way this has been released who knows right because whatever they whatever the
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precedent whatever they decide to train however they do it they haven't unrolled that yet they
00:21:28.380
haven't unleashed that or told us what it is it sure puts the premiers in an odd spot yeah so now
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if i'm a premier i've been handed the ball here's the ball you figure out what you want to do for
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training your judges for the criminal offenses and if you do it wrong and someone gets hurt like
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this poor lady that got killed for the in brampton then they're going to point at you yeah that's
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not going to point at us because we gave it to you to figure out so now we came up with a solution
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and you were supposed to do it and you didn't do it here's the hot potato pass to you good luck
00:21:59.620
right yeah so now now if i'm a premier i got a bunch of issues right yeah i can go and i can
00:22:06.500
make bail reform really tough can't do this can't do that you can't do this you can make all those
00:22:11.860
things you can put it in okay where do you put the people so now you're in a catch-22 right
00:22:19.280
where do you get the courtrooms where do you get the judges yeah there's a whole new team of bail
00:22:25.540
judges that we need now well that's the thing you create you create a bail bail court so you create
00:22:31.580
a bail court and you create a maybe you create a scoring system or a mechanism fine you get there
00:22:36.680
and you get to bail court and you maybe you're super good at it so say within six months you've
00:22:41.840
created a system where you can click through it you can get you know 30 50 60 100 people a day
00:22:47.580
through it you get people through it you uh get rid of the backlog but it's so onerous because
00:22:53.180
politically you don't want to be on the hook for it that now you have to send them somewhere okay
00:22:58.060
now i got them i get you the more the more of these cases that get stopped at the bail end of
00:23:04.140
things the more stats you have on crime so where do you send them detention centers i don't know
00:23:10.540
yeah but detention centers are heinous detention centers right now are worse than prison yeah
00:23:16.460
people on the floors uh yeah we've caught there's cots there's caught after caught after caught it's
00:23:21.900
communal there's lots of crime there's lots of assaults there's it's really bad yeah when you're
00:23:27.260
short 2400 prisoner cells for the for the people who've already been tried and convicted yeah i
00:23:33.420
really i don't know where you put the bail people well that's the thing then i was just before the
00:23:37.980
show i was having a conversation with someone uh who was telling me a story about a friend of theirs
00:23:42.860
who is in uh a police person policeman and they basically are uh fairly tough from what they're
00:23:51.420
saying and difficult sometimes but they were uh they were complaining about how bad the detention
00:23:57.660
centers were yeah how ugly they've gotten and how how much crime is inside the detention centers
00:24:04.300
inside of canada so how fast can you go to build like you know you you know the stats right like
00:24:12.380
when i started off the show you know there's seven you know roughly 800 murders a year you know
00:24:18.420
there's uh 239 per 100 000 motor vehicles thefts we know the fraud rate is 436 per 100 000 people
00:24:29.660
we know cyber crime is 225 hate crime is 4882 and we know the approximate 2025 so we know all
00:24:38.820
those stats and we know the approximate sentencing against each of those right but the problem is you
00:24:45.220
can't sentence because you can't you have nowhere to put them yeah which we're still in the same
00:24:50.140
place we were six months ago when we did the show on jails well bail reform's okay so then you go
00:24:56.580
you get to go home okay we hope that you'll show up yep but then you show up for your trial and
00:25:02.960
you get sentenced at that point do we stay your sentence do we commute your sentence what do we
00:25:09.000
do how much of that then becomes a problem because we've got so many people awaiting trial
00:25:15.180
in jail right yeah okay so yeah yet we have a construction so in many provinces we have a
00:25:24.260
construction industry that's decimated us right that's the truth right now when we talk about
00:25:30.680
skilled trades what a you couldn't find a better place to hone your skills to build something than
00:25:36.900
a prison yeah even real estate is at a pre is not at a premium that it was you know just even a few
00:25:41.900
months ago well and for the most part for the most part you're going to be building that prison
00:25:46.040
outside the city in a farmland or somewhere and you know the city will accept you quite frankly
00:25:51.300
it gets through all your by bylaw uh exemptions go forward and you're going to be building
00:25:56.240
the prison there the city's happy to have you because that major factory that kept the city
00:26:02.000
alive is now gone so it has a huge amount of employment now when you look at the let's talk
00:26:08.760
about that for a minute and you know the number of prisons so the number of prisons i think before
00:26:13.240
the show we were looking at it it's like 261 uh prisons across canada yeah i had that jotted down
00:26:44.480
So a small percentage of their prisons are privately run.
00:27:07.600
So even if we're 10 times the population in the U.S., right?
00:27:17.900
And then also we have our rate of incarceration, incarceration capacity.
00:27:39.680
So, yeah, there is a huge deficit just in planning.
00:27:52.320
So in the criminality world, we definitely missed the target.
00:27:57.800
Someone dropped the ball on putting up the red alert
00:28:01.660
that we needed to be building prisons more frequently.
00:28:05.940
you're admitting that you have a crime problem with your country.
00:28:14.380
to if i don't report the stats and i don't want to tell you how many people are being arrested and
00:28:18.220
what your crimes are and i don't have any analytics to tell me what they are where they are how they're
00:28:22.860
happening why would i spend the time to actually try to build jails to house the people that because
00:28:27.780
i'm trying to deny that i'm having any of it happening we went into denial we came out of we
00:28:33.400
came out of covid with a pure denial of our criminal rates right we wanted to pretend that
00:28:39.120
we were canada the good that we weren't having crimes so what we did is we started pretending
00:28:43.880
we didn't need uh bail reform prisons it is total denial on our part like and it's it's crazy that
00:28:52.760
we keep it's crazy that we keep doing it because people are talking about like it's no secret
00:28:59.800
people are not not talking about you just have to watch the news every morning we all know it
00:29:05.720
having to create a law that says end leniency for non-citizens convicted of serious crimes
00:29:10.440
what the hell of course yeah i mean so so you know if if i'm if i'm sitting there you know
00:29:19.320
you you spent a lot of time mike in the movie business actually when i when i first met you
00:29:23.640
you and i met a gentleman who went and scouted sets that's right right so to me right away my
00:29:30.340
mind goes and i'm not trying to you know pretend i could fix this problem but right away my mind
00:29:34.980
goes to get the heck out there and find large uh warehouse empty buildings and rural communities
00:29:42.580
that would accept a prison or a detention center at multiple levels right remember kingston used
00:29:48.420
to have the worst offenders they used to have the badest of the bad millhaven and all of those yeah
00:29:54.020
exactly so you find areas that you can ship different levels of criminals into so you know
00:29:59.300
based on the you know the the uh type of crime and and then quite frankly and the and the and
00:30:05.700
whether you're trying to rehab them or not right that's the other thing or whether they're
00:30:09.700
rehabbable because quite frankly there does the chances of rehabbing someone who's a you know a
00:30:16.180
sociopathic murderer um you know who's killed you know eight people yeah is way different than you
00:30:24.100
know someone who just created manslaughter in a fight outside a bar right right so there's
00:30:28.820
different levels and i think that there is a certain amount of that now however the facilities
00:30:34.180
are double timing and triple timing for purpose yeah everyone's everywhere everyone's in each one
00:30:39.220
of them whether it's a detention center whether you know it's it's a prison but to me it would be
00:30:44.420
getting out there quickly now and trying to figure out not not build buildings it'd be trying to
00:30:51.220
retrofit buildings that exist to try to put people into place because you're behind the
00:30:55.940
eight ball you went into denial after covid now you're behind the eight ball you have 2400 people
00:31:01.700
coming into the system now you do this new bail uh reverse owner onerous if you actually get the
00:31:08.580
province so now here's the interesting let's play the devil advocate here yeah right you're the
00:31:14.180
province right i'm the federal government okay mike i want you to use the reverse onus uh process
0.56
00:31:22.420
for your jail reform okay right you're going to look at it and you say oh crap i don't have the
00:31:29.060
means to do this right so but what you're going to say so then you're going to what i would do
00:31:34.580
if i'm in your shoes i'm sitting in your shoes what i would do is i would say okay i'll do it
00:31:40.260
i'm going to make it very tough and i'm going to back up criminals out the wazoo so i'm going to
00:31:46.580
put all these people and i'm going to come back to you and say you're the one who wanted me to do it
00:31:52.060
i've done it now where do i put them so now i would take the ball and lob it back over the fence
00:31:57.580
oh that's all i would do is i throw it back i need more prison money yeah no not you see i would go
00:32:02.980
even further i would actually do it even further i need more prison money and you need to build them
00:32:06.800
yeah because i don't want the contracts who wants a prison contract think about it that's a good
00:32:12.120
you are the premier that brought prison you're the prison premier yeah right i would throw that
00:32:18.280
back to the prime minister right and say no you be the the prison prime yeah you'd be the jailer
00:32:23.880
yeah i don't want to be the jailer i don't want to be known because every one of those people you
00:32:28.360
throw in jail quite frankly has a family and they're not going to vote for you like this is
00:32:33.080
all about politics right throwing the ball back and across the fence right and no one wants it to
00:32:38.920
land on their side of the fence and where we're going to end up we're going to end up what not
00:32:44.200
doing anything again probably but i think you can't i think you can't because i think the mistake
00:32:49.560
that's made here i think where sean frazier bill c14 the mistake with that was made here
00:32:55.000
is it goes to the premiers the premiers can't ignore it now it's almost like they have to make
00:33:00.440
reverse onus so tough that bail can't be achieved right because now if you let loose
00:33:07.800
like you know and something happens it's on the province it's on the premier it's on the
00:33:12.200
that's true right now and now think about it it's closer to home before when it's in the federal
00:33:17.720
side and these crazy three-factor rules and everything the province could say well you know
00:33:23.160
it's happening because of the feds it's happening because of the criminal code right now the criminal
00:33:28.120
code's on you if it happens you're the premier of that province it's your responsibility oh the
00:33:34.120
citizens are going to be really mad right the citizens are going to be like so as soon as as
00:33:37.560
soon as uh you know jane or jimmy's parents get up crying on that mic on that hot mic and start
00:33:44.200
telling the story how your uh the the bail offender who got off came and killed their son or daughter
00:33:53.000
oh especially after you had the chance and you got new rules and you were mandated by the government
00:33:59.240
to do this no it's a tough situation it's an uh it literally puts them in a very awkward spot it
00:34:05.000
totally does yeah so now they put now if i'm sitting in their shoes i'm like i got it can't
00:34:10.280
get bill give me the money well i don't have the money where i don't why would it what what money
00:34:16.680
would i have well you either you're the one you gave me the reverse onus now you give me the money
00:34:20.280
to build the jails okay so now i've got he's already 78 billion in debt right right he's got
00:34:26.280
where's you getting the money to build my jails you can't take defense money because quite frankly
00:34:31.320
you know you got to show you got to show the g7 and you got to show nato and everyone that you
00:34:36.120
have the money to put into defense now so where are you going to get that you can't take it out of
00:34:41.640
what seniors payments we're watching you print money now when you do it so be careful exactly
00:34:47.320
you know you're going to cause inflation by actually spending more money so so now you're
00:34:51.320
you're in this kitchen we're going to increase tax like where are you so what about this the
00:34:55.040
provinces now have to okay they need more prisons yep they're going to be let's say in the current
00:35:01.580
forum they're on the hook to build those prisons not just build those prisons but maintain those
00:35:06.160
prisons staff those prisons oh yeah uh handle the loans on on property and the you know the upkeep
00:35:13.140
and expansion of those prisons now become a provincial burden what do they say per year it's
00:35:18.740
150 i i now this number may be wrong so fact check me guys it's 150 000 per inmate a year to keep an
00:35:27.060
inmate okay right so just you know i incarcerate you i put you on uh you know i give you three
00:35:32.740
years you know no no probation or whatever it is you have to spend three years you're a half million
00:35:37.620
dollar expense to the province yeah so now i'm forced to not do bail i got to get you into some
00:35:43.940
center you're costing me 150 that's an ongoing cost so like you look at the u.s the u.s that has
00:35:50.900
i don't know what's the prisoner rate mike it's crazy
00:35:58.020
yeah yeah of people in prison wow oh that's crazy so and the amount of the amount of prisoners in
00:36:06.020
the u.s is like an astronomical number right we've got 30 like 40 000 we have 40 000 people
00:36:12.100
in prison right now yeah in the u.s it's like a million people right yeah so you figure you know
00:36:17.540
150 000 times a million right you're a billion dollar ticket just on incarcerations in the u.s
00:36:24.820
is an industry so now we're 40 000 we go to a hundred thousand based on ours okay and we're
00:36:30.900
150 we're 150 000 holy cow yeah right now we're really that that's an insane number right so when
00:36:39.540
we're turning it's the next billion that the government didn't take a look at exactly so now
00:36:44.820
let's we can't predict the future on this but the one thing i will say can we just touch on the bill
00:36:49.900
for a second yeah it seems heavily porous and and leans on the provinces way too much for
00:36:56.820
interpretation i think even the the law society is saying that right then the next thing is
00:37:02.900
on that note where do you predict this ends up what can be done about this does it get adjusted
00:37:09.560
do we live with it do we live with it wrong and let it mount up this issue on a provincial basis
00:37:15.720
where do you think this goes where does it where does it go it gets lobbed back over the fence
00:37:20.920
yeah so you know now everyone's you know got their 20 22 week vacations they're off when it comes back
00:37:28.680
in the fall the first thing you're going to hear uh back to the federal government we all need
00:37:34.520
money so when they go to the end of the the premier's table when they all come with the key
00:37:38.360
issues yeah we can take care of it we can we can we have bail but now we need we need uh two billion
00:37:44.920
dollars to go build jails across the nation and we need a billion dollars a year to manage the
00:37:50.760
or 1.5 billion 1.5 we need another 1.5 so now your transfer payments for us just went up by that tick
00:37:57.560
yeah we're willing to do it but we have to do it now i don't see another option well there are
00:38:02.920
but they're i mean do we set a private private prisons do we well you know it's an interesting
00:38:09.800
it's even when you privatize it never works here no no but it's it's it's a very interesting so
00:38:15.960
you know the approach on this is very interesting right because on the liberal perspective they're
00:38:20.840
trying to leave it loose so they can get people rehabilitated and reformed and back on the street
00:38:26.120
so you know i don't want to be too onerous because quite frankly if i put the wrong person in jail for
00:38:31.480
too long it'll cause these impacts right on the conservative side they want hard and fast rules
00:38:37.560
of what you're sentencing and what you're you know when and why and how you go to jail right
00:38:43.160
makes sense yeah so which is fine yeah you look at other countries i think we have to go across
00:38:49.000
to other countries and see what's the model that's worked best in my mind quite frankly
00:38:54.600
you have to make it to the point you have to create it to the point where you display that
00:39:00.680
it's not um a holiday or a vacation for people to go to jail to get a crime yeah to put some in
00:39:08.980
do a crime that puts them in jail is it should have impact right so you know are you uh on hard
00:39:16.120
time are you are you trucked up to a mining uh mining uh community and are you going to work
00:39:22.240
every day are you on a detail are you on you know you because quite frankly right now what do we do
00:39:28.880
and forget forget the you know the sociopaths the you know the serial killers let's put those
00:39:34.640
park those those those are a tougher case you got to go kind of bury them away for the rest of their
00:39:39.680
life and they're done but you know for the car thieves and for the assaults and for those people
00:39:46.000
they're the ones who you got to take up and you got to get them to do hard so you
00:39:49.440
if all of a sudden all these people know that there's a consequence to their actions right
00:39:54.720
you know there's this this and this and it's well known through the community i'm going to think
00:39:59.680
twice before i go to do that right i'm not you want that to be the result of this yeah yeah fine
00:40:04.400
you know you can you can you know you can we just did a couple shows on it you know and the other
00:40:09.120
one that we have to address is we have to address minors in crime because that's become something
00:40:15.200
that's become more prevalent and using miners to inflict these crazy crimes on people uh whether
00:40:20.880
it's shooting a gun in their hands and then a little bit of cash and off they go and they you
00:40:25.840
know they go they get the minor offense you know status so they're they're in the minor zone you
00:40:31.600
know those are the things when you look at but if we if the consequences of their actions are known
00:40:36.480
and we publicize them and you know they they wear you know i hate to say it and a lot of people who
00:40:42.480
uh will go crazy when i say it having lived in the states and uh for 12 years and seen the way
00:40:49.060
different states treat crime when you're driving down the highway and there's a chain gang picking
00:40:54.420
up the litter and cleaning the highways in their orange jumpsuits it really does you you really
00:41:01.240
think twice about even honking your horn or doing it's amazing how that kind of message
00:41:08.640
causes you to kind of think twice when you're saying i don't want to be in that scenario oh
00:41:13.180
no i never want to creeps imagine how bad that scenario is right and that's what
00:41:17.040
and that's indoctrinated from childhood right so everyone who lives in that community
00:41:22.440
is seeing that like right in front of you they're seeing it happen you don't want to be that guy
00:41:28.840
no your parents have said you're going to end up on that chain gang out on the highway there
00:41:32.860
yeah yeah so you're told and you're seeing the live example so i you know again i like to see
00:41:39.100
the studies that show the most impactful effective way to do this and who's done this the best around
00:41:45.340
the world bring it but it's got to happen fast the problem is now see this ball that got rolling with
00:41:51.500
c14 the ball's been thrown over the fence 30 days paul 30 days it's in all these judges are going to
00:41:58.140
to start making rulings based on the reverse onus that's going to cause a bunch of other things
00:42:04.580
and when we come back if they've all made these tough rulings there's going to be a backlog of
00:42:10.460
people sitting in the system somewhere yeah either either post-trial waiting for prison
00:42:16.260
imagine that being on a waiting list for prison and or they're going to be delayed trial because
00:42:22.400
there's no place to incarcerate them on and not even if it's an obvious case even if it's like
00:42:27.660
a clear-cut case and somebody's going to go to prison for this they may find that it's delayed
00:42:32.420
way too long to even try the cases and then if i'm a police chief i'd be i'd be crying bloody
00:42:38.880
murder saying okay we did this they went there like you know i would i would be throwing the
00:42:45.940
ball because when i come to you to counsel you want me you want my officers to make a bail
00:42:51.820
determination right when after 25 years all you've done is disable our police force disable it
00:42:57.500
disabled now you want my officers my constables and my staff to make decisions with the courts
00:43:05.100
on whether somebody gets out on the streets oh no that's a pr problem for the police as well
00:43:10.040
yeah but then when i when i go when i go back when my budget's up for the following year to
00:43:15.040
get budgets done and i come back for more money and you say no
00:43:18.400
okay my officers can't oblige they can't yeah so what do you want me to do it so what they've done
00:43:26.060
is they've created the ball rolling on this is this this this gets worse now so because then
00:43:33.420
you know the council gets it they're going to go well okay i need to do a property tax increase i
00:43:39.340
got to find that money everybody's going to pay for this now you're in the middle of people's real
00:43:43.820
estate values crumbling down so those mill rates here's the interesting part this is kind of where
00:43:47.900
it all goes so where part of it goes this is the interesting rate right now so before your
00:43:52.940
home was worth x so then this we're not talking about this right now because everyone oh this
00:43:56.940
could be temporary or whatever you know you used to get your property tax based on your mill rate
00:44:00.940
based on the assessment of your home exactly now your assessment of the home you know the
00:44:04.780
the place i'm living in now right sold it the other they sold it the other day but on beside us
00:44:10.620
for half of what it was listed for right so now your valuations in that neighborhood a decent
00:44:17.100
neighborhood is actually starting to decrease now now my property tax mill rates and valuation so
00:44:23.020
at some point they got to come back because you know uh uh impact so or whoever it is it has to
00:44:29.100
come back and they have to take a look at those uh values and they're going to come back and say
00:44:35.580
oh you know all these properties are actually less than half so we have to go so then that actually
00:44:41.980
so you can increase the mill rates to try to keep the tax base but then people are going well
00:44:46.860
why is my property tax the same or more when my valuation of the asset that you're taxing me on
00:44:52.600
is decreasing so my wealth is eroded but yet you keep taxing me at the same level to keep my
00:44:58.140
services going because you created improper bail reform that you threw over the fence like it all
00:45:04.520
leads back already i already i want to fight my property tax yeah already i'm at a place where i'm
00:45:10.440
like how how am i at this place uh oh it's based on the impact evaluation oh yeah sure
00:45:16.680
And what do you do when you get those guys to come back?
00:45:21.340
And so now people won't even fight this increase because they know better.
00:45:25.920
But I don't think, well, I don't know if that's an interesting thing.
00:45:30.440
I think where they're going to, the challenge on the municipal level is going to come,
00:45:36.120
So people are going to, they're going to vote for people that actually will agree that there's no problem.
00:45:41.740
So if I'm a politician, which we have a bunch of elections coming up,
00:45:45.680
one of the things on your municipal side you should say you have to guarantee me no property
00:45:51.640
tax increases for the next four years if you can't we can't vote for you it doesn't matter
00:45:56.880
how much you like them how much they jump up and down on the podium like a funky chicken
0.75
00:46:01.160
how much crap they do you got to say to them you got to find dollars inside the whatever
0.98
00:46:05.840
and if not you have to go back to the province or the feds and figure this out because this is a
0.99
00:46:11.820
it's a vicious circle you've created whether it be this issue with bail reform but it can't land
00:46:17.620
back on the taxpayers no it can't it can't this is something you created you messed up you ignored
1.00
00:46:24.100
you should have been addressing along the way you shouldn't have squandered the money on stupid
0.99
00:46:27.520
projects right right and and that's why you know that sorry i was going to touch sorry i was going
0.95
00:46:32.540
to touch on that the pushback to the federal government not even at the municipal level is
00:46:38.800
we needed this taken care of and you're spending money over 50 years doing this and this and your
00:46:46.560
crazy budget what this doesn't even show up paul yeah this doesn't even show up that they're going
00:46:52.340
to reform the law to put people more people in jail did not include a major project that built
00:46:58.220
more prisons in this country that i know of yeah and now let me ask you this let's say that i'm a
00:47:03.220
municipality sorry now sometimes the more we do these shows a lot the deeper we get in yeah that's
00:47:09.780
when i start to get fired up here here's the one that's got me now if i'm kingston or peterborough
00:47:15.320
or one of these in ontario uh you know sorry as my reference point is ontario do we get a special
00:47:23.420
discount on our property taxes as a prison town do we get any benefits built in who covers those
00:47:30.260
benefits or do i just get stuck with the prison in my neighborhood 10 years after i bought my house
00:47:37.140
yeah we we don't seem to you know this is an interesting uh for a whole other show but no
00:47:42.260
matter what municipality you live in from bc toronto councils and people do not seem to be
00:47:48.180
very concerned about how their uh decisions impact your property values and we see it time and time
00:47:56.100
again whether it's six plex is small that popped in my mind yeah whether it's anything that you see
00:48:00.580
right yeah all these things that they're they're you know they seem to think that they want to
00:48:04.740
densify they want to do this they want to do that put a tiny house in your driveway yeah yeah yeah
00:48:09.620
put an addition that six stories you know what i mean like all right they want to allow all these
00:48:13.700
things to happen but yet they don't want to think about what the impacts are put a prison put a
00:48:19.140
prison in your back in your town yeah good luck getting someone to buy your house right yeah so
00:48:24.820
So now you got to, that's the next hot potato that Mr. Pally says.
00:48:27.780
So, okay, you know, now here's the interesting thing
00:48:31.900
So this is probably going too far, but let's keep going, right?
00:48:37.240
Go and figure out where the crime rates are highest
00:48:42.200
No, you created, you created, you wanted density.
00:48:44.660
So, hey, Mr. Torontonian or Mr. BC or Vancouver, you know what?
00:48:52.660
i'm going to put the prison in the downtown course so you can look at it right now american cities do
00:48:58.220
this so this isn't something that you don't see when you're in pennsylvania and you go drive
00:49:02.820
through you do see quite frankly where there is high crime rates and they go into those communities
00:49:07.940
and they build the prison right there downtown manhattan and you see it right and like everyone
00:49:13.140
who drives by it's like oh that's the prison yeah yeah you know and it's like okay but you know what
00:49:17.920
why should some guy lives is who's basically uh or some gal who has a home in a nice community
00:49:24.620
all of a sudden get lumped with a huge prison you know that has the the air siren go off every time
00:49:31.160
there's a break or any time uh there's yeah any time there's a break and then next thing you know
00:49:37.060
they dug their way out and they're running through your city and now you have to take your children
00:49:40.940
and shelter in place three times a year and that happens quite a bit by the way why did my life
0.70
00:49:47.280
become raising arizona suddenly what happened here but i that was that was my extension on
00:49:52.820
this thought as well okay if these towns don't get a benefit from it then really the prisons
00:49:57.280
need to go where there's the most crime because that municipality or that government or that
00:50:01.580
area of a province is not maintaining the right level of safety for the community and it's too
00:50:09.040
dense yeah so guarantee right away people will pay attention to their because then all of a sudden
00:50:14.460
your real estate will values will change because people will you know not only will i figure out
00:50:19.700
my schools i'll figure out what my crime rates are by that area and i'll go well i'm not paying
00:50:24.660
that much for that and by the way i'm not moving there because there's a potential if that gets
00:50:28.200
any worse i'm going to lose more property value and because you're going to build a prison so
00:50:32.080
that that'll and what that'll do is that'll cause people who don't care right now they sure will
00:50:37.760
care are we having a crazy idea i want people to feed this back because we did a show as you might
00:50:43.760
recall about protest parks yeah and i mean that was a whimsy that you and i just went down on on
00:50:50.220
the still like the idea so do i and a lot of people did i'd like to know if you think this
00:50:55.420
one point in particular should prisons be built in high crime areas because that's what was earned
00:51:03.240
in that area by that municipality city or town i i think that's an impact that's on the way and
00:51:10.740
if it's not thought of it really needs to be considered well that's the next part of this
00:51:15.900
this whole show at the end of the day what do we come up with we need more prisons yeah so more
00:51:20.640
prisons we're short 2400 beds right now and growing yeah so at some point they got to be
00:51:26.040
built and where are they going to be built so that's the next question that's the next ball
00:51:30.120
that gets thrown back over the wall but it gets thrown into the municipals so it goes in it gets
00:51:35.120
thrown into some municipality's backyard not even the province it's going to end up in a municipality
00:51:40.280
and a partnership with the province, which is often difficult,
00:51:43.300
with a federal mandate that is different from province to province to province
00:51:48.340
based on precedent, the judges that are answering to it,
00:51:58.860
But it does cause the ball to start being thrown.
00:52:02.760
But it's being thrown to a province standing there with no glove on going,
00:52:11.400
I think that that bail reform should have come with a strategic financial plan to build it out.
00:52:20.780
It should have had basically, it should have had criteria.