True Patriot Love - September 08, 2026


Is Canada Really Spending More on Its Military？


Episode Stats


Length

24 minutes

Words per minute

156.3

Word count

3,850

Sentence count

140


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
00:00:00.000 I think what's ended up happening, too, especially within Western countries since the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991 era, was that it kind of, oh, well, you know, the age of conflict is over.
00:00:15.520 That the end of history, so to say, that we're now reaching this aspect of world peace.
00:00:21.560 And so a lot of countries started treating their militaries as kind of non-essential, right?
00:00:31.100 And so they became a bureaucracy like any other rather than as a very necessary part of any country.
00:00:46.520 Well, there's no doubt in the last several months we've heard about our military making steps forward, that we've made commitments to do more with Canada's military.
00:00:55.400 But how is that reflected in spending?
00:00:57.700 Well, I'll tell you what.
00:00:58.700 If you want to go down the rabbit hole on that kind of thing, you call up Liam DeBoer.
00:01:02.740 Liam, thanks for joining me to talk about redefining defence spending.
00:01:06.800 What do we mean by that to start with?
00:01:08.620 Because I think we saw a defence budget.
00:01:11.600 We heard about a bunch of things that we were going to be buying.
00:01:14.600 What am I missing?
00:01:15.520 Yeah, so in 2017, actually, is when they expanded the definition of defense, what counts as defense spending. And so from then on, it became veteran payments, peacekeeping and humanitarian operations, IT support to defense, defense personnel costs, and then just other program support.
00:01:42.400 And so a lot of what we see in terms of new, quote unquote, defense spending is really just redefining where certain other spending has already been going and then putting it under the label of military so that we can say we're putting all of this much more money into our military.
00:02:03.980 Okay, well, you know what, it's kind of new to me, but not so new that I'm hearing this because several months ago we had a chat with one of Canada's greatest experts on NATO, and Charlotte mentioned to us that when it comes to NATO commitment spending, things are included in the budget that you don't normally think about.
00:02:22.820 things like the roads and highways uh the water systems water treatment facilities um you know
00:02:29.620 certain um security elements to areas around our military bases which could be an entire city
00:02:37.380 yeah yeah and so there's actually a pretty good example of this recently which was just august 10th
00:02:43.780 ottawa announced a 768 million dollar construction contract for the rss main lab campus in nepean
00:02:53.620 and so yeah this is actually more so for cbsa and also health canada but because of these broadening
00:03:02.420 of terms now they can put it under that uh that nato defense budget and roughly roughly a billion
00:03:08.500 dollars over the next 10 years is going to count towards that but also even within nato itself
00:03:15.380 because they've got the five percent target that they want to countries to hit right and so 3.5
00:03:23.460 percent of that is direct spending things that need to be on actually military itself but then
00:03:29.380 1.5 percent can be military aligned so these kind of projects that we're seeing which yeah don't
00:03:36.260 actually necessarily necessarily bolster our uh military but yeah it makes uh makes for good
00:03:44.180 headlines what's going into that lab what what falls under that roof that might see this qual
00:03:49.940 because it's if 1.5 is the target that we have we're allowed to schmoo other i guess if there's
00:03:56.660 a better word for it to be able to schmoo this this number over other projects what's going to
00:04:02.900 be under this roof and and how's the justification applied yeah well part of this was for the uh
00:04:12.500 food supply chains and stuff as well which hey maybe you can make an argument for in terms of
00:04:18.420 yeah if something like a global conflict was to kick off then obviously food supply chains are
00:04:25.620 a very important thing to worry about in that scenario. But yeah, the actual buildings itself,
00:04:38.360 yeah, they're more so for food security and that kind of stuff. And a lot of it is just
00:04:43.360 bureaucracies, they're laboratories and stuff like that. So it's not even, you know, let's say
00:04:49.040 military warehousing or anything of that nature. It's more so essentially, yeah, more bureaucratic
00:04:55.240 buildings and as you say it's military adjacent perhaps but certainly i'm just assuming it's
00:05:00.780 definitely not under military watch in other words it's not under the executive branch of the
00:05:07.280 military right and yeah i mean there's there's other other examples of this too outside of this
00:05:13.360 new project that was just announced august 10th the coast guard is a good example of of a budget
00:05:20.240 that is now being counted as military despite the fact that the Coast Guard isn't armed.
00:05:27.100 It's considered a civilian arm, but $2.6 billion now gets counted toward the Canadian military budget
00:05:36.240 because of, yeah, the Coast Guard.
00:05:38.540 So, yeah, this is an ongoing trend.
00:05:42.540 Okay, well, I guess if it's a trend, then we kind of need to look at it
00:05:46.180 because what it says to me is this actually begins at NATO.
00:05:50.240 maybe I'm wrong about this, NATO accepting a country's sovereign security as part of a NATO
00:05:57.140 agreement, I guess maybe there's a military logic to each country in NATO having their own secure
00:06:03.660 base. But it almost feels to me like that should be a prerequisite of being a member of NATO,
00:06:09.700 that you're able to secure your food, that you're able to secure your borders and your waters
00:06:15.160 uh of a civilian nature before your military is applied anywhere does that seem unreasonable
00:06:21.880 no that seems pretty pretty reasonable i think i think what's ended up happening too especially
00:06:28.300 within western countries since the fall of the soviet union in 1991 uh one era was that
00:06:36.080 it kind of oh well you know the age of conflict is over that uh the end of history so to say that
00:06:43.260 We're now reaching this aspect of world peace.
00:06:46.760 And so a lot of countries started treating their militaries as kind of non-essential, right?
00:06:56.440 And so they became a bureaucracy like any other rather than as a very necessary part of any country.
00:07:07.200 Why do you think NATO is ramping up so much on a global level, trying to enforce this to the degree that a country like Canada is jumping around, trying to budget for improvements that are vastly needed?
00:07:21.960 And I think anybody in the military, anybody watching over our military would say, yeah, we need some revamping here.
00:07:28.880 But at what point do we think, wow, why is NATO pumping so hard on the accelerator right now compared to years gone by?
00:07:38.480 Well, I think, well, mainly because of the Russia invasion of Ukraine.
00:07:44.720 And then also there is added pressure with people looking at China invading Taiwan.
00:07:52.220 Then you've also got the Middle Eastern theater with Israel and Iran.
00:07:58.080 And just in general, I think these countries are starting to wake up to the fact that, yeah, no, conflict is still very much a human element.
00:08:10.720 And geopolitically.
00:08:11.800 And so, yeah, I think I think looking at that aspect of things and then also, too, once Trump came into office, he started pressuring NATO and other NATO countries saying, hey, America is essentially making up for all of the lack that the other countries are doing in spending.
00:08:35.780 You guys are kind of sitting here going, well, as long as we've got America in our corner, then we're safe.
00:08:40.440 And he put his foot down and pretty much said, no, we're not going to be subsidizing your guys' defense any longer.
00:08:46.620 And so if you want America to stay in the NATO alliance, then you guys have to meet your obligations.
00:08:54.700 it's kind of crazy to me that it really took that the americans kind of just saying okay look we're
00:09:01.460 gonna we're gonna have to get everybody to pay their their just due on this i mean for for so
00:09:08.840 long now i i'm the first to admit sure we'll be in nato whatever we've got america nato's great
00:09:15.740 because we've got america we've got this huge defense uh and and attack engine this machine
00:09:22.000 that can be put into action at the drop of a hat
00:09:24.760 that has placement all over the world.
00:09:27.500 I do see Trump's end of it that way.
00:09:29.700 Why should we have so much protectorate responsibility?
00:09:33.700 I think that that's overblown to some degree,
00:09:35.800 and I think we found that,
00:09:36.840 but I see the sentiment really pushing NATO hard right now
00:09:41.380 and NATO pushing its members in the same way.
00:09:45.080 I guess the members maybe, I guess my point on this is,
00:09:47.540 it seems to me like, Liam, we're getting to a place
00:09:50.320 where we can't afford to make those adjustments.
00:09:54.700 Therefore, we're going to use these percentages
00:09:58.220 in the adjacent way of spending for military
00:10:01.600 to bolster what we really need in our own country already,
00:10:05.140 which I think is probably okay as well.
00:10:07.480 But it is a little bit shifty
00:10:09.440 when you take a look at military spending
00:10:11.320 and you see a lab being built in Nepean, Ontario.
00:10:15.620 Yeah, yeah.
00:10:16.400 Well, and you know, this mirrors a larger trend within Canadian fiscal policy as a whole, even outside of the military itself. When Carney came into office, he started running the budget. Trudeau had everything under one umbrella, pretty much. And then Carney split it into capital and operation costs and said that, okay, well, we're going to balance the operating budget.
00:10:43.900 And then what ended up happening and both left-leaning think tanks have covered this, the PBO, who is considered independent and right-leaning.
00:10:54.600 So they all converge on this where the $300 billion of capital spending that Carney has been promoting as investments in Canada's future, about at least $95 billion of that is things that can't be considered an investment at all, like say corporate tax credits and so on.
00:11:16.240 And so there has been a lot of shifty accounting within Parliament since Carney came into office in order to, well, you can see how that looks, right?
00:11:29.660 It makes it if you take things out of the operating costs and put them into the capital bucket, then you make it easier to budget or balance your operating budget.
00:11:40.060 But then also you make it a good sales pitch for look at how much I'm investing.
00:11:46.540 And so, yeah, it seems like that's that's a lot, whether it's whether it's more mundane day to day kind of spending or whether it's the military stuff that there seems to be a lot of accounting shiftiness.
00:11:59.520 Well, you know, even if it's not shiftiness, it's a different perspective on accounting.
00:12:03.880 It's a completely different, it's not a ledger system anymore.
00:12:08.180 It's completely different.
00:12:10.480 It does feel, and I've said this before, I think you probably will agree with me,
00:12:14.140 it feels more like corporate reporting and corporate forecasting than it does that of a country.
00:12:22.440 You know, it feels more corporate than diplomatic.
00:12:25.420 It feels more forward thinking for the sake of getting you to buy in today than a real budget showing how desperate we are would actually be.
00:12:40.020 Now, to Carney's credit, it's hard to get people to build into a country and invest in themselves when they see the struggle on the books so blatantly.
00:12:48.580 When you can show me EBITDA or whatever the national version of that is for a country, when you can show us a future that is bright and cheery based on balancing the books, theoretically, it makes it a lot easier to get people to buy into spending now.
00:13:06.460 yeah yeah that makes sense and i mean too i think i think we are headed to this point where
00:13:13.140 the external pressures of the world are going to push things in a direction that
00:13:21.200 action is necessary like it won't necessarily be a sales pitch trying to get people on board
00:13:28.100 it will just you know go back to this no we we've got to do it kind of game and just pulling the
00:13:33.100 trigger uh no matter whether people are happy about it or not now obviously they'll they'll
00:13:38.460 try to bend the narrative in a way that that is beneficial to them but i do see us entering this
00:13:43.040 this world where it's it's less about uh yeah trying to get people to buy in and just doing
00:13:48.280 what you have to do because even you know china just this week uh august 28th they overhauled
00:13:57.300 their entire national defense mobilization law so they've pretty much made it now that uh yeah
00:14:03.940 the the updated framework is includes compulsory compulsory civil uh civilian service so men aged
00:14:11.780 18 to 60 then requisition of private assets if it's deemed in the benefit of their national
00:14:19.540 interest uh integration of technology supply chain mobilization all of this kind of stuff
00:14:24.900 And I think if I'm correct on this, there was also another major one where it was now they can do that. It used to be in terms of national sovereignty. So they could only invoke that kind of thing if it got invaded or attacked.
00:14:42.960 Whereas now they're categorizing it as national interest.
00:14:47.740 And so that could be going out if they want to, say, take Taiwan forcefully, then this mobilization measure could be could be used.
00:14:57.240 And, you know, we've got we've got guys to like Palmer Lucky down in the States who does a lot of defense building.
00:15:05.960 He was the one that created Oculus way back in the day, sold it, but now he works on national defense.
00:15:14.220 But he's made a point that pretty much everything coming out of China these days is dual use, like even their ferries that they're using for civilian use, that the government makes it so that they have to be able to also carry military equipment if need be.
00:15:31.660 And so, yeah, I think this is going to be a larger trend of of the world of everybody essentially preparing for something of that nature.
00:15:42.280 You know, if we had to have the Canadian version of it, maybe we say, OK, we've got the peacekeeping version of this frigate and we have the battle version of this frigate.
00:15:51.460 So, you know, it's the same unit, but let's make sure that it's it's it's being applied appropriately.
00:15:57.240 What else do you see out there, Liam, in the way of defense spending?
00:16:01.660 that is maybe not getting the spotlight that it should be at the moment i know that we've ordered
00:16:06.460 some planes allegedly uh we have ordered some submarines allegedly i don't know where we are
00:16:12.140 with those deals are we missing anything else out there you think well in terms of like actual
00:16:19.180 let's say like material um yeah whether it be tanks whether it be submarines whether it be
00:16:27.580 fighter jets this kind of stuff that's obviously an issue and should be taken care of but the
00:16:33.820 biggest one the biggest issue i see is in terms of recruitment and the people in terms of military
00:16:40.940 uh like you know it'd be i used to think about myself as a very patriotic person that if anything
00:16:47.960 if the time came around where i needed to fight for my country that i would be willing to do so
00:16:53.040 But over the last five to 10 years with how I feel that our government looks at people like me or even to how they've been abusing the treasury and so on, all of these kind of things.
00:17:07.320 It's like, why would I fight for this country?
00:17:09.700 It doesn't feel like the country is fighting for me.
00:17:12.340 And so I think that is the biggest issue.
00:17:15.980 And you talk to people in the military that have been there for decades, and they talk about how low morale is and how a lot of people in it are just waiting for their retirement package, essentially, and they're going to be out that door the minute that they can get it.
00:17:34.060 Yeah, it's hard to blame them when what are you fighting for.
00:17:38.520 that's a perspective that uh you know i don't think we often consider but it is really true
00:17:45.460 liam that if you are not really loving what your government has done for you if you're seeing
00:17:49.480 as a young person your parents struggling uh you know working several jobs you know you're living
00:17:55.820 in a situation where even getting groceries is difficult for the average person it's got to be
00:18:02.460 difficult to say I'm going to stand up and do something when so little has been done for the
00:18:09.760 country over a decade. That does make sense to me. So that motivation is definitely, there's no
00:18:16.620 motivation to say we've got this great thing, we're going in the right direction, we need you
00:18:21.860 to make sure that we have our sovereignty and our protection through this. Yeah, you're right,
00:18:26.300 I don't see that. I don't see that storyline.
00:18:30.300 And that's a broader trend across all Western countries.
00:18:33.980 I mean, it's very similar in the UK.
00:18:36.540 It's similar in places like Germany.
00:18:38.300 When you go talk to the young men, presumably the type of people that you would need to need to rely on in that scenario.
00:18:45.880 They all overwhelmingly feel very similarly where why would I fight for this country?
00:18:52.540 And yeah, it's, you know, that's kind of the inevitable endpoint of the last 10 years of social policies that they've been putting into place, whether it even be with public messaging and all of that kind of stuff.
00:19:07.260 They've been telling the young men of the country that they're an issue to be dealt with.
00:19:11.680 And then it's like, well, when you need those people, now you can't just turn around and expect them to, you know, jump by your side at first ask when you've been essentially telling them that they're a problem to be managed.
00:19:25.960 That's a good perspective, too.
00:19:27.820 I can see where you're coming from on that.
00:19:30.860 Yes, to motivate young men to be there right now is difficult.
00:19:35.180 And also, we have a generation that is more ready to watch, I think, than involve themselves.
00:19:41.320 I do think our military has a challenge ahead of them.
00:19:44.080 They really have to show how a young person is going to have a home in the future and a life.
00:19:50.300 And that's the, you know, it's a career thing more than it is a pride thing.
00:19:55.620 Yeah, I completely agree.
00:19:57.220 There needs to be both, yeah, the financial that, you know, also for just pure material that it's going to be worth my efforts and potential sacrifice, whether it's for the family that I leave behind in that scenario or, you know, have to come or coming home to.
00:20:15.240 But then also, yeah, then there is the ideological aspect as well of like, what am I fighting for if I'm, you know, you listen to, you listen to, for instance, Trudeau during his time where he was asked to define what a Canadian is.
00:20:31.640 And it's a very circular logic where he said a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian, which doesn't make any sense.
00:20:40.060 A rose is a rose is a rose.
00:20:43.000 Right.
00:20:43.340 And they've even too back in 2015 said that Canada has no, no core identity. So then when you're telling me that, you know, I need to step up and be ready to defend Canada, but you can't even define what Canada or a Canadian is, it's pretty hard to get somebody on board with that, that sales pitch.
00:21:04.720 And so I think that would be the very first necessary step in something like this to in terms of essentially, you know, because there's been how can you defend what you can't define?
00:21:19.220 Right. And there's been a there's been a push, especially since our last election cycle to, you know, to defend Canada, put your put your elbows up.
00:21:32.120 But it's more of an anti-American stance than it is a pro-Canada stance.
00:21:37.380 And so you really need to I think that that is the first the first issue that needs to be dealt with is starting to have a have a pro-Canada sentiment.
00:21:45.760 You know, Liam, we've had a hell of an issue being true patriot love.
00:21:50.520 As soon as people see the word patriot, the bristles go up in the back of their neck.
00:21:54.880 Ah, you guys are Trumpers.
00:21:56.600 You guys are, what are you, putting a trucker organization together?
00:22:01.420 No, no.
00:22:03.080 It's in our national anthem.
00:22:06.320 True patriot love.
00:22:08.240 Do you love your country?
00:22:09.360 Are you a patriot?
00:22:10.660 We've left no room for people to say, I love my country.
00:22:14.420 We want everybody to define themselves as independents in this country, but really we don't want them to love the country enough to even say, love your country, even though it's in our national anthem.
00:22:28.620 I do think that there is that disconnect of national pride that needs to come back in some fashion format, that we need to have our own identity as a nation, something that is worth defending.
00:22:40.920 Yeah, I completely agree. And I think, you know, even to this, this could go back to our, our very founding in terms of a lot of nations like consider America when it was when it was founded, it was founded through revolution and through war.
00:22:57.400 And so that, you know, that idea of we need to establish this and protect it at any cost, that is very different from how Canada came about, which was we have these kind of like leftover patchwork colonies and it's kind of becoming a nuisance to govern them from over the seas now.
00:23:19.160 And so let's just let them self-govern. And it kind of just fell together. And so that kind of mythos, that sense of self isn't as ingrained, I think, as some other nations like, say, America, where you get that patriotism from.
00:23:36.720 I can understand that too, but we do have to define ourselves in some modern term in this hemisphere, I think, to really get that sense of pride going.
00:23:48.800 $900 million to be spent on a science lab, that's under our defense spending.
00:23:54.060 NATO says it's okay, we can put it toward 1.5% over the next 10 years of our military spending, and that's for NATO-related security and resilience spending.
00:24:03.900 I guess we share the information in that lab with other NATO members.
00:24:08.100 We'll find out more about what happens in that building.
00:24:10.520 I guess under 300 people will be employed there.
00:24:13.920 And it looks like a pretty major commitment that we've made here.
00:24:18.800 Prime Minister Carney announced Canada had hit the NATO 2% target
00:24:22.480 with total defence spending of more than $63 billion.
00:24:26.620 One of it's going to a lab in Nepean, Ontario.
00:24:31.020 Liam, thanks for having this chat with me.
00:24:33.900 feels like therapy. I really needed that. Of course. Yeah. Thanks, Mike.