True Patriot Love - Ontario’s 407 Deal Is Still Costing Drivers

00:00:00.000 They called it innovation. The world's first fully electronic open access toll highway.

00:00:04.960 No booths, no stopping, no friction, just motion. But for millions of Ontarians, the 407 isn't

00:00:10.940 freedom. It's a rolling invoice. A 108-kilometer monument to what happens when the government

00:00:16.200 sells tomorrow to survive today. In 1999, Ontario leased Highway 407 for 99 years.

00:00:22.800 The price? $3.1 billion. At the time, it was pitched as smart economics. Debt reduction.

00:00:29.820 fiscal responsibility, modern infrastructure.

00:00:32.600 But here's the problem with short-term political math.

00:00:35.180 Time compounds.

00:00:36.820 Today, the same highway is estimated to be worth more than $30 billion.

00:00:40.880 The tolls generate hundreds of millions every quarter.

00:00:43.900 Drivers pay some of the highest roadway costs in North America

00:00:46.960 just to escape congestion created by the public system beside it.

00:00:50.760 And the irony becomes almost impossible to ignore.

00:00:53.920 The public built the road.

00:00:55.420 The public sold the road.

00:00:56.280 And now the public pays private investors to use that road.

00:01:00.260 Except investors aren't just foreign anymore.

00:01:02.820 Your pension fund owns it too.

00:01:04.760 The Canadian Pension Plan Investment Board now controls over 50% of the highway,

00:01:09.140 meaning Canadians are trapped inside one of the strangest economic loops ever created.

00:01:13.240 You pay tolls to help fund your retirement,

00:01:16.000 because your retirement fund owns the toll road you already paid taxes to build.

00:01:21.180 This isn't just about traffic anymore.

00:01:23.360 It's about a country monetizing access to itself.

00:01:26.280 because one public infrastructure becomes a permanent profit engine citizens stop being

00:01:30.680 owners and they start becoming customers tonight we ask the uncomfortable question did ontario

00:01:36.680 solve a budget problem in 1999 or create a 99-year extraction machine that canadians can never escape

00:01:47.080 driving and commuting in the 400 series highway in southern ontario is amongst the most painful

00:01:53.400 exercises you will find i would rank it with the pain of the um the los angeles freeway that you

00:02:01.120 see the multi-lane freeway in los angeles and the major highways around the world but nothing

00:02:08.220 compare to the out and out daily congestion at all times of the day even on weekends and holidays

00:02:15.780 there are jams on the 400 and the 404 and the 401 and every highway and trying to get from one part

00:02:24.200 of the city to the other for work or for family or for recreation entertainment purposes is getting

00:02:30.140 worse and worse it's the largest urban area in the country and it has some of the worst traffic grid

00:02:36.140 in north america among the very worst well jim so we we see a lot of two-lane highways up north

00:02:42.140 right northern ontario anything uh referencing highway 11 which is one of the most dangerous

00:02:46.240 highways in the entire country all the way down to the 401 in southern ontario it's a mess um our

00:02:51.360 infrastructure has always been a mess get on the highway 102 in nova scotia from the airport to

00:02:55.740 truple i don't remember or i don't know if you remember six months ago i had a thing over top

00:03:00.200 of my desk of infrastructure comparably from the u.s canada and europe so we're 75 years behind

00:03:06.520 europe at that time as of last year yep and 40 to or 35 to 40 years behind the united states just

00:03:11.900 terms of infrastructure okay like i've been i've driven from nova scotia from newfoundland

00:03:18.700 basically every province in the country there's not one province in canada brady

00:03:22.860 that you can't find an issue with the roads and transportation system that is immediate need of

00:03:28.540 upgrade so not one so if we if we all agree that the infrastructure even from from the statistics

00:03:33.900 standpoint we're behind okay push that off to the side so we're not gonna we're not gonna complain

00:03:38.220 about infrastructure okay that's a completely different show yeah what we're going to complain

00:03:41.900 about is the cost of the 407 the ridiculous deal that was done which i i had laid out in my opening

00:03:49.740 monologue and now where we're at in 2026 um over 30 years later this thing has been built it's there

00:03:56.140 and it seems like this is a luxury item at this point okay but time is money time is money and so

00:04:02.380 every day when i leave our studio and i hit home north of toronto yeah i have no choice if i don't

00:04:09.340 take the 407 for a couple exits to get to another highway i'll add 45 minutes to my drive by going

00:04:16.460 down to the 401 because it's so bad during the day and that's part of the problem for millions of

00:04:22.780 people in southern ontario sometimes you have to bite the bullet pay the 407 toll fees otherwise

00:04:29.500 you may may not get to something on time or be stuck in traffic or it's a risk you are gambling

00:04:35.500 you are with your time every time you get in the 401 and that's part of the business plan

00:04:39.720 as we were breaking this down that's part of the business plan the stress of looking that can you

00:04:45.680 just save 45 minutes to get home a little bit earlier to have a little bit more time to yourself

00:04:49.060 or to get to that next appointment that you're supposed to be at right they're hoping that

00:04:52.680 you're stressed out they're hoping the 401 and this is in terms of the people who own the 407

00:04:57.120 right now they're hoping that you're stressed out and that you're gonna bite the bullet and pay the

00:05:00.880 fee to get on here i don't know for people in other parts of canada who've never been on one

00:05:06.800 yeah the 401 is the busiest stretch of highway in the country yes and it runs really busy busy from

00:05:13.040 east to oshawa on the east end all the way to milton on the west end through the busiest corridor

00:05:19.280 of driving in the city and it used to have something called rush hour now there is no

00:05:23.680 such thing as rush hour always rush hour so and that's commuters yeah and people driving on

00:05:28.720 vacation and tractor trailers and logistics and go buses and you you every vehicle you think of

00:05:36.320 is on there all times every time going as fast they can to get there because everyone's in such

00:05:40.800 a hurry okay so we we've laid out infrastructure is pushed over here now our anger for the 407

00:05:45.600 we've somewhat justified it a little bit but let's start let's before we get too crazy and

00:05:49.840 and we start breaking down every one of our specific anger points.

00:05:54.920 Let's talk about why the 407 was created

00:05:57.180 and the reason why the 407 seemed like it used to be a really good idea

00:06:01.380 and where we got to 30-something years later.

00:06:04.640 It's built north of the city, north of Steeles Avenue,

00:06:07.700 in what's called the 905, and that's the suburbs.

00:06:10.740 That's the Peel region, York region, Durham region suburbs.

00:06:14.140 So almost a ring highway.

00:06:15.580 And if you go to Regina and Edmonton and Calgary

00:06:18.500 and a lot of cities in winnipeg a lot of cities across canada they have something called a ring

00:06:23.300 highway yeah and instead of spending all day stuck in traffic you can hop on the ring highway

00:06:28.160 get to one of the four quadrants of wherever city you are in canada and get to where you want to go

00:06:33.820 it's way more efficient it's less congestion less stuck in traffic but with toronto they had never

00:06:40.340 had anything like that so they thought let's build like a almost a horseshoe ring highway

00:06:45.940 around toronto bypass the nonsense that's the 401 and keep people moving and build an area because

00:06:53.020 they knew there was going to be growth more growth north of the city more access for people to drive

00:06:57.500 so it started as a plan to basically alleviate traffic inside of the gta and the surrounding

00:07:02.280 areas 100 and then it got extended big time it's been extended all the way out to niagara falls

00:07:07.600 yes right and uh how far north does it go just past peterborough right or just

00:07:11.440 east to the the 115 okay so we we've we've expanded this thing um the property the original

00:07:19.580 property that this was built on who do you know who owned that property it was a collective of

00:07:23.740 people but i actually don't i thought it was just uh landowners and farmers or whatnot that owned

00:07:28.500 the property it was and that's the collective and then it felt like um a lot of that land kind of

00:07:33.740 got backdoor sold okay so i i have a friend who and i'm not gonna out their name because i don't

00:07:38.820 get them in trouble with the stuff i don't know if a lot of this is public or not but from my own

00:07:42.100 sources i know someone that used to own a good chunk of that land okay through family and they

00:07:46.580 they it was completely kind of donated and given away to the 407 there and now that was some family

00:07:52.180 stuff they didn't want to leave you know so they owned it they owned a good chunk of that land

00:07:57.060 okay and it got kind of donated so i know that there were some weird deals on how the land was

00:08:02.740 acquired but let's just say the land was acquired and it was acquired legally and perfectly everybody

00:08:06.100 spent the money that they needed to spend they built this highway and to alleviate stress on

00:08:10.500 the 401 the 403 the 427 anything that was seen like it was getting congested hopefully if we

00:08:15.700 open up this 407 this will alleviate the congestion and it did i remember as a kid i just started

00:08:21.540 working i was young i was born in 84 so by the time 94 95 came around i seen the use for something

00:08:27.300 like this that was in the car in the back seat way too much and it made things a lot easier to

00:08:31.540 get it really did somewhere and it was affordable and that's the word that i'm going to keep using

00:08:35.940 throughout this show affordable at the beginning the toll rates were very reasonable very reasonable

00:08:40.980 and this is before the transponders this is just going off your license plate that's right then it

00:08:45.220 started getting a little expensive so we figured okay if you're a regular 407 user we're going to

00:08:50.180 give you a transponder which is going to give you some discounts it's going to give you some kind of

00:08:54.020 basically your acquiring points and you hear a beep because it's electronically scanned yeah

00:08:58.820 so when you get off your exit you'll hear three beeps knowing that it it made it noted your travel

00:09:05.140 time and how far and how many exits you went so it used to be affordable you could get from one end

00:09:10.900 to the other end without feeling like you actually took a chunk out of your paycheck for right so

00:09:14.500 we got your 407 bill every month it was was like oh okay a couple hundred bucks maybe 400 if you're

00:09:19.940 using it a lot but it wasn't painful it wasn't painful it didn't feel like a mortgage payment

00:09:24.180 didn't feel like a rental payment right and this is where we're at now where these are succeeding

00:09:28.180 some of these people are using the 407 doing are all around toronto succeeding their rent payments

00:09:33.940 Well, I mean, right now, it wouldn't be unusual for someone to spend $400 to $500 on a week traveling in the 407 for work and family purposes.

00:09:45.420 Yeah.

00:09:45.700 That's not unusual.

00:09:46.640 A week.

00:09:47.400 A week.

00:09:48.240 Yeah.

00:09:48.620 And you add that in a month, that adds up.

00:09:50.420 I mean, there was a woman, there was a story in Southern Ontario recently, a woman, I think it was well over $1,500 for one month.

00:09:57.160 $1,700.

00:09:57.680 Yeah, $1,700 for one month of toll fees on the 407.

00:10:01.920 And that was a viral story around the nation a couple of weeks back.

00:10:05.160 And that's what we were planning on doing a 407 talk for a while now, and it just didn't seem like it was the right time.

00:10:11.120 Well, now it's the right time because now this is a national story of people, like people on the West Coast.

00:10:17.740 I could only imagine them opening up that article and seeing, what do you mean $1,700 to drive on a highway per month?

00:10:25.660 What are the people in Toronto doing?

00:10:27.280 My sister-in-law used to live in New Jersey, and it's all toll highways in New York, New Jersey, Connecticut.

00:10:32.880 But their toll rates are a fraction.

00:10:34.580 It's not $1,700.

00:10:35.680 It's $1.25, you know, $3 here and there.

00:10:38.860 It's so much cheaper.

00:10:40.720 And wild guess of what this works out per kilometer right now.

00:10:43.620 The rate of the 407, what it works out to per kilometer, the average.

00:10:47.180 Because certain parts of the 407 cost more than others.

00:10:50.060 Is it $1 something?

00:10:51.060 It's $1.

00:10:52.100 Yeah.

00:10:52.340 We're looking at $1 to $1.25, depending, is the average.

00:10:57.280 which is way way too much what are we talking about what are we talking about well a company

00:11:02.560 well a company and the canadian pension plan who own the 407 are making money and that's i brought

00:11:09.760 that up in the opening monologue and we'll break that down as to how that happens so uh anybody

00:11:14.560 who's an economic expert or an infrastructure expert says that this deal that canada did over

00:11:19.520 these past 30 years and we'll explain the deal that actually happened would be a deal that you

00:11:24.160 you would never want a government to make in the first place nor would you ever let a government

00:11:28.520 make that deal again now this was not the federal government this was at the time the very uh

00:11:34.640 controversial premier mike harris who did make a lot of friends in ontario with his way he governed

00:11:40.800 the province but that was his great deal and at the time in 1999 the province made just over three

00:11:47.860 billion dollars for selling the highway and money that was used for different things for the

00:11:52.180 province and at the time he was trying to sell it to the peoples what a great deal for canada

00:11:57.720 what a great deal for ontario we just made over three billion dollars yeah selling this highway

00:12:02.700 3.1 billion in 1999 the problem is is they never accounted for inflation or time or population

00:12:10.140 growth times compounding so now the market value if you were to buy the 407 now would cost 35

00:12:17.300 billion dollars it's gone up 12 times even some estimates as high as 38 yeah so it's 12 times the

00:12:25.460 value is when the province sold it yeah 12 times yeah so i don't know like i said i'm not an

00:12:31.400 economics expert hello i'm not even a highway expert but i know a bad deal when i hear one

00:12:36.540 right right and in 1999 you can't tell me well we didn't know the future no you have a rough idea

00:12:41.800 that this is a not a great idea if this thing's only projected to generate three billion dollars

00:12:46.780 in 1999 why would you only pay 3.1 for it that's not business and as a matter of fact in the mid

00:12:54.700 to late 1990s before the sale a lot of the municipal mayors in different pockets of the

00:13:01.020 province of ontario got together with the premiers at the time from bob ray to mike harris and

00:13:08.540 government officials and they did long-term growth projections yeah looking ahead 15 20 25 years

00:13:14.860 identifying pockets of the province that they knew were going to grow they knew needed

00:13:20.220 infrastructure and they knew needed highways so they knew in 1999 that the you know the

00:13:26.540 clarington oshawa area the east willinbury north york region the milton georgetown area were all

00:13:32.380 going to grow huge yep and so they had all these plans these 30 40 year plans to build suburbs and

00:13:38.060 whatnot but they never took into account that the highway would be so they could have easily

00:13:43.660 asked for 10 billion in 1999 and still would have been a deal i i'm not going to say it sounded like

00:13:49.260 some sort of backdoor plan uh you can't because that's easy to do and be like oh well somebody

00:13:54.140 obviously knew and they did some no that's not what it is i think this was just really bad planning

00:13:58.700 right and we can break down negotiating bad negotiating bad planning and bad projections of

00:14:03.100 what the actual future could bring in canada um which seems to be a recurring theme here so now

00:14:09.820 country the the the upside the upshot of all this is there's an upside no not an upside it's it's

00:14:16.140 the the result of this yeah is the highway system in southern ontario is almost untenable the the

00:14:23.660 401 is so clogged with heavy trucks trying to get to the city to avoid tolls that sometimes it's

00:14:29.420 hairy when you're driving on the 401 through the city and it's chewing up the roads to no end now

00:14:35.180 marth styles the ontario leader the ndp doesn't have great ideas all the time but she has one

00:14:41.260 great idea that's long overdue for the love of god and i broke down the math make it free for

00:14:47.980 heavy trucks to use the 407 it would cost ontario 250 million dollars a year to pay for all the

00:14:55.420 heavy trucks to bypass the 401 however there's a proposed highway 413 that doug ford in the

00:15:02.620 the province wants to build that will probably cost 18 billion dollars that's 72 years worth of

00:15:10.260 trips for those heavy trucks up and down the 407 to get off the 401 so you're saying don't build

00:15:17.420 that highway just give the 407 to the trucks no but we can we'll pay for it but make it free for

00:15:24.160 all the heavy trucks all the tractor trailers all the ones who are going from the east end of

00:15:29.520 Ontario and they're heading for Kitsch or Waterloo or the Windsor border or the other way are heading

00:15:34.060 for Ottawa or Montreal, make it free for them to use the 407, get off the 401. That would make a

00:15:40.400 huge difference. So if the 407, let's say we put all the trucks on there, citizens still have access

00:15:46.080 to it as well? Absolutely. I'll gladly pay. I mean, they're going to pay for the trucks. I'll

00:15:52.960 gladly pay for my 407. Who's paying for the trucks? The provinces. Okay, so the taxpayer.

00:15:58.600 The taxpayer.

00:15:59.320 The taxpayer is going to pay for the trucks.

00:16:01.100 I mean, otherwise we're paying $18 billion to build the 413.

00:16:04.380 Yeah.

00:16:06.500 That's the price tag of that highway.

00:16:09.820 Is there, I guess because I'm already looking at this thing as a whole big mess.

00:16:17.640 And if we were to add, yes, I would love to free up the 401 and the 407 and the 427 or the 403.

00:16:22.700 Everyone would love to do that and put these guys on the 407.

00:16:24.980 i still feel like this is costing taxpayers more dollars than it needs to i think the taxpayers of

00:16:34.060 the province have been screwed over so much in the last 25 plus years yeah this is the best of

00:16:39.820 a bad deal but it's still not ideal brady but we've been screwed over twice on this thing are

00:16:45.580 we going to do it a third time but okay what's the alternative status quo keep the rates the

00:16:51.200 way they are keep the 401 being chewed to nothing because they're on the on the 401 every day

00:16:57.180 complete gridlock on the major highways as you said throughout the southern ontario area every

00:17:04.500 day because they're avoiding the tolls on the 407 and then doug ford talking about building an 18

00:17:10.480 billion dollar highway from the 400 to the 401 called the 413 highway well i'm happy that you're

00:17:17.060 coming up with solutions for because the one thing that i couldn't do for the past week after

00:17:21.500 looking at all this was come up with a solution of how to fix it i don't know if it's just me

00:17:25.960 being weak-minded or if this is such a mess that you need a team of people to come in here and

00:17:30.680 train right so something needs to be done so this is just me going this way coming up with my own

00:17:35.580 little idea but you can't tell me that logistics experts and transportation experts and people

00:17:42.740 that do this and have got PhDs in this can't get together and come up with a solution that will be

00:17:48.960 more efficient and work for more people than what we're doing right now. Because what's the old

00:17:53.840 thing? You keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. That's

00:17:57.860 insanity. Okay. So if every quarter we're averaging 491 million in revenue, let's just

00:18:03.400 say 500 just to be, to round it up. Yeah. That's two bill a year. Yeah. We're doing 2 billion a

00:18:09.300 year i think that if you did this you were that number is going to drop because you're going to

00:18:15.340 see you're not going to see as many civilians going on there because not only can they use

00:18:18.360 the 401 now it's not as congested but you're also going to see people not wanting to get stuck in

00:18:22.800 the gridlock of being inside of these trucks that people driving on the highway in the 401 one of

00:18:26.960 the biggest scares that they have is but you're boxed in with all these massive trucks in and

00:18:31.300 then wind oh right you see these trucks moving and in the winter with this it's really bad

00:18:36.220 So, okay, so let's say just to be fair, we're going to lose $100 million right off of that quarterly price.

00:18:43.360 All right.

00:18:43.900 Okay, so we're going to lose $400 million a year off of that $2 billion.

00:18:47.220 So we're looking at $1.6.

00:18:48.560 How long would it take for us to get ourselves out of the hole?

00:18:53.640 Right now, as far as getting out of the financial hole, I have no idea.

00:18:58.120 But I do know that if we do something to make it free for tractor trailers and heavy trucks to use the 407, we can get out of this endless hamster wheel of infrastructure.

00:19:09.340 Because every two or three years, not only is the 401 jam with people and trucks and cars, they have to do heavy construction to fix it.

00:19:17.200 And I agree with you. 0.99

00:19:18.020 That helps the civilian, right?

00:19:19.500 So the civilian gets a little bit of a break here.

00:19:21.800 And thank you, right?

00:19:23.980 You could use one.

00:19:25.720 Individuals need a break.

00:19:26.660 We definitely do in this country.

00:19:28.120 but what does this do for Ontario and the debt and where we are now in a zone where the Canadian

00:19:35.240 pension fund owns 50% of this, which I said in the opening monologue, we have paid for this to

00:19:43.600 be built with tax dollars. We are now paying out our tuchuses to ride the thing just to reinvest

00:19:51.140 back into our own pension fund brady as far as getting ontario out of debt that is way above my

00:19:59.440 pay grade like i i'm just dealing with this is part of the debt though this is a big part of

00:20:04.780 the ontario debt yeah okay so the debt is different levels it's this debt yeah and then it's the debt

00:20:10.440 of hiring contractors to fix the 401 every two and three years and there's the debt of people

00:20:17.120 losing tens dozens of hours every week of productivity because they're stuck in traffic

00:20:23.000 and the mental health wear and the wear on the cars and the pollution and then the debt on the

00:20:28.700 environment so there's multiple layers to the debt brady and that's my concern if we can get

00:20:33.920 the trucks off the 401 get them on the 407 i think mart styles is a great idea things are moving a

00:20:40.820 lot you're saving 15 20 25 minutes on your commute that's huge especially in this part of the country

00:20:46.840 it's huge so the canadian pension or the canadian pension plan investment board there's 700 or 780

00:20:53.160 billion assets under management liability estimate is 1.86 trillion yeah that's from the frazier

00:20:59.960 institute yeah i don't understand and i don't think i ever will why the canadian pension

00:21:06.680 investment board is involved in this i don't understand why we're gonna why they buy things

00:21:11.880 that make money yeah i know but this makes money this is short-term money you know but oh but for

00:21:17.160 the last number of years there you want to talk about a sure thing for the pension plan it's been

00:21:22.040 investing on the tolls in the 407 right the tolls have not went wow this is really messed up because

00:21:28.680 like i said we're taking care of the civilian but we're screwing the population at the same time so

00:21:33.560 it looks like we're taking care of the individual but the individual is still paying seventeen

00:21:37.480 hundred dollars a month yeah that's the cpp is there to make money for the pension plan of

00:21:43.720 canadians and they're looking at the 407 as something that consistently makes money every

00:21:49.160 year the population of southern ontario is not going down the rates on the tolls are not going

00:21:54.820 down of course they're going to invest because they're making the pension money every year

00:21:58.640 producer nick i'll check back in with you in five minutes but can you can you somewhat come up with

00:22:03.600 an alternative solution just so we have two different ones that I can choose from thank you

00:22:09.100 okay because like I said I don't know if there I know that there was people lobbying this back

00:22:14.700 in the day saying do not buy this thing like this is not a good idea or sorry do not sell this don't

00:22:19.320 sell it not a good idea they were on the rooftop like don't do it screaming we've had numerous

00:22:24.120 uh articles we've had many documentaries put out everything from cbc professors papers on it

00:22:30.560 professors at universities that put theses together there has been more people screaming

00:22:35.020 that this thing is a mess and please get it under control and it's still going on 30 years later

00:22:40.120 okay but here's the problem brady from you think about when they sold it yeah and how long they

00:22:45.220 haven't owned it there's no chance that there's no chance that ontario or the federal government

00:22:51.760 have the money to buy it back but we can't buy it back we have to buy it back at the dollar that

00:22:55.880 it's worth today right because they're carrying so much debt so okay let's come up with a solution

00:23:00.140 Which is worth way more than the $30 billion or $38 billion that we've estimated to be.

00:23:04.420 But maybe if you put heavy trucks and tractor trailers on the 407 for free, you're not rebuilding the 401 every three years.

00:23:11.660 Maybe it's every 10 to 12 years.

00:23:13.820 And maybe just maybe people aren't spending 45 minutes to an hour trying to commute in the 401.

00:23:19.000 We've cut 15 or 20 minutes each way off their drive.

00:23:21.900 To me, that's huge.

00:23:23.240 So how does a truck qualify to be free?

00:23:25.600 Is this done through a transponder and they just wipe the bills?

00:23:27.920 The one thing I've read, it's the weight.

00:23:29.640 So it's 5,000 kilograms over that you would qualify as a heavy truck to be able.

00:23:35.780 So like the big trucks, the big tractor trailers, the big heavy hauling, you know, the flatbeds with cranes and excavators on it.

00:23:44.740 All the ones that, like you say, you get boxed into the 401, your white knuckle, they'd be on the 407.

00:23:51.520 Okay, so we have the year increase in trends, the five-year freeze.

00:23:55.760 What do you know about the five-year freeze?

00:23:57.080 I don't know.

00:23:57.560 So the five-year freeze, rates remain static during the pandemic and its aftermath due to lower track volumes and contractual agreements with the province.

00:24:05.700 Right.

00:24:06.160 So the 2025 reset came in after that.

00:24:08.580 The toll increased for the first time in a half a decade with per-kilometer rates jumping up 3 to 14 cents.

00:24:13.660 That's a big jump.

00:24:14.400 That's a huge jump.

00:24:14.960 So why would the CPP want to be part of it?

00:24:17.040 But that's before the spike.

00:24:18.400 So the 2026 spike this year saw a much more aggressive increase in some central zones, like a stretch through North York and Vaughn.

00:24:25.100 rates increased as much as 34 cents per kilometer and that's one of the busiest stretches of the

00:24:29.980 highway and that's during the afternoon rush hour so they they've not only done it by the area that

00:24:35.900 it's in but the time so for people who don't know have never been to this part of the country that

00:24:41.580 takes you from the 404 to the 400 the two major north south corridors in southern ontario has

00:24:49.660 the highest rate yeah because that's where people are trying to trying to get somewhere did you ever

00:24:54.940 go on the 407 you probably did because it was years uh here did you ever go on the 407 during

00:24:59.420 the pandemic oh yeah did you ever go on the 401 during the pandemic yes i did 403 uh basically

00:25:04.620 every highway 427 yeah remember how beautiful that was it was like kramer with the empty highway

00:25:10.380 in steinfeld it was awesome it felt gross because it almost felt like a ghost town like every time

00:25:14.540 you're driving down you're like i what do you know those apocalyptic movies where you're alone

00:25:18.220 on the highway or like it felt like a walking dead or the fallout or whatever it is right

00:25:22.540 World War Z, you're kind of freaked out here.

00:25:24.380 Yeah, the book of Eli or something.

00:25:25.880 It's just these empty highways.

00:25:27.060 And it was beautiful, but it wasn't realistic.

00:25:29.420 And they must have lost a good chunk of money.

00:25:32.000 So I can't see this just being because inflation is going up

00:25:35.060 and because we've got to raise the cost of this thing

00:25:36.940 to make more money for the pension.

00:25:38.160 I think it was like, holy crap, we lost like two years worth of dollars here.

00:25:41.580 We need to make up for this thing.

00:25:42.680 And by the way, the heavy trucks, they get charged 338 cents per kilometer.

00:25:50.260 that would that's a lot that's a lot that's a lot per kilometer rate for a higher

00:25:58.860 are much higher for heavy trucks and multi-unit trucks during peak times

00:26:02.880 get them get rid of that get them off the 401 there's all the other ancillary highways are

00:26:10.580 jammed with trucks trying to avoid that cost because obviously if you're an owner operator

00:26:14.900 or your company you can't pay that okay it's too much so i will nick go ahead nick yeah nick what

00:26:20.740 you got so um some solutions so invest in transit so find other public transit solutions to get

00:26:29.700 congestion down um i like that solution yeah i don't think but again um look at you they're always

00:26:36.660 but nick i will say this i agree but we're always in this country 10 15 years behind where we should

00:26:42.340 be we're trying to play catch up all the time i don't know if you gentlemen have uh been on the

00:26:46.840 go train recently my goodness keep the 407 going i was on the subway saturday night ttc was mess

00:26:53.320 what a mess keep going so uh other one was congestion pricing changing pricing in in regards

00:26:59.900 to demand yeah um better crash clearance again this is a serious issue with clearing uh you know

00:27:05.960 crash cars oh yeah that um but here's the real big brain solution guys tunnel underneath the

00:27:13.960 401 you're not for that are you no i'm joking this was uh that's okay the premier of ontario

00:27:21.240 doug ford yeah exploded the idea of building an express tunnel on the 401 from mississauga to

00:27:28.600 i think pickering um and the cost of it no one could even fathom how much it would ever cost

00:27:35.380 We can't even put an extra lane in a highway now in due order.

00:27:39.960 How are we going to build a tunnel?

00:27:41.020 This sounds like the tunnel under the ocean that Elon wanted to build.

00:27:44.140 Remember, he was going to build a highway under the ocean.

00:27:47.580 Now, mind you, the project and the PowerPoint looked great.

00:27:50.540 I watched the whole presentation on it.

00:27:51.860 It looked amazing, but we're not there yet.

00:27:54.860 Thank you, Nick.

00:27:55.600 Thank you for the tunnel.

00:27:56.540 I forgot about that.

00:27:57.660 But I think you're in the same spot we're in,

00:27:59.540 which is my confusion and frustration for this episode.

00:28:02.220 There is no good answer here.

00:28:03.500 This is a 99-year lease.

00:28:06.820 So, all right.

00:28:07.860 So, if you can't get out of it, then you have to...

00:28:10.460 You're not getting out of it.

00:28:11.360 So, all right.

00:28:12.040 Then you have to...

00:28:12.640 All right.

00:28:13.060 You're not even going to buy your way out of it, Jim, because the number is absurd.

00:28:16.180 Then pay for the heavy trucks.

00:28:18.600 The lease is the lease.

00:28:19.440 You might be right.

00:28:19.840 Pay for the heavy trucks. 0.99

00:28:21.360 Bite the bullet.

00:28:22.340 Forget building the 413. 0.69

00:28:24.740 Take that money you were going to use at.

00:28:26.460 You've got seven decades of heavy trucks paid for on the 407.

00:28:30.340 so to me it's the only way yeah i i don't know i think this was more of a political timing thing

00:28:39.780 right i think uh i think premier mike harris at the time did something that was a political move

00:28:45.720 um where they weren't really breaking this down for the long-term thing it was a quick solution

00:28:50.540 it was short-term cash well to say hey guys look at i just made us three billion dollars here as

00:28:55.940 premier and i did it in in an afternoon ha ha look at me but no one thought about 30 years later

00:29:01.460 where you were like dude you just did one guess what the irony all that is brady his whole thing

00:29:05.620 was the common sense revolution that's when we got elected as premier the common sense revolution

00:29:11.540 we're going to bring common sense back to ontario but they didn't use common sense when they sold

00:29:16.340 the 407. so should we be lighting the torches and grabbing the pickforks and and going on the

00:29:21.140 anti-mike harris campaign still the teachers of ontario can still have they they've got that we

00:29:27.340 don't have to do anything so now we're basically left to deal with it like like every other

00:29:32.500 decision that's been made that seems to be leaving us in a in a long-term problem um you may be right

00:29:38.020 but okay we just did a show you know mike and i talking about war rooms and and planning and

00:29:44.260 brainstorming we actually do need to check your ego at the door and bring non-partisan politics

00:29:50.940 different parties uh academics logistics people people who who use it all the time let's come up

00:29:58.720 with a plan that can work for everybody that works for everybody and gets trucks off the 401

00:30:05.060 and maybe brings the cost down and maybe makes things move more smoothly and also is tied into

00:30:10.820 more transit more options for people a lot of the times people are using highways in southern

00:30:15.700 ontario because they don't have another option to get from home to work and i like how you said

00:30:19.920 leave the ego at the door let's get the people that are the most qualified to go into a war room

00:30:23.840 to sit down and have this discussion about this this problem or any sort of problem when it comes

00:30:28.880 to infrastructure or any sort of issue that we've got going on in individual provinces but the one

00:30:33.320 thing that they're going to leave at the with the ego is leave your political belief system there as

00:30:37.820 right so if marit styles and the ndp has an idea don't just you know get rid of it because she's

00:30:43.760 the ndp let listen actually listen to people sorry just because yeah sorry uh actually listen

00:30:50.880 to people yeah with ideas if someone's a professor if someone maybe is not your political slant and

00:30:57.280 is coming at it from a whole wacky way well maybe actually listen to what they say they may have

00:31:02.880 something to provide to this idea to this debate that could help how did canadians end up paying

00:31:08.400 their own pension fund to drive their own on their own highway because that's a canadian thing that's

00:31:13.520 that is the most canadian thing ever brady the the most canadian tax thing ever when we say we're

00:31:19.120 overtaxed we pay the toll every day yet then they're paying it to our own pension plan the

00:31:24.720 answer is technically a paradox because the cpp investments acquired and a controlling stake in

00:31:29.520 the 407 meaning one of the canadian canada's largest public retirement funds profits directly

00:31:33.600 from toll revenue in theory canadians benefit as a pension contributors but in practice commuters

00:31:39.360 feel like they're being financially or they're financing their retirement through daily roadway

00:31:43.200 fees it transforms mobility into a reoccurring extraction system like the pension plans are there

00:31:50.480 for pure profit once upon a time the ontario teachers pension plan owned a huge stake of

00:31:57.120 maple leaf sports entertainment of the toronto maple leaves yeah you're right yeah they have

00:32:00.320 And they sold it for a fabulous profit.

00:32:04.520 So the teacher's pension plan in the province of Ontario

00:32:07.060 made it like gangbusters when they sold their share

00:32:10.200 to Bell Media and Rogers Media.

00:32:12.280 So the Canadian pension plan at one time

00:32:14.260 will take a look at this,

00:32:15.740 and when they think they've maxed out the profits,

00:32:18.000 we'll sell that to someone else.

00:32:19.520 But as far as Canadians for our pension plan,

00:32:23.000 I mean, it sucks for people driving every day,

00:32:25.640 but for people in other provinces,

00:32:27.260 they're like, yeah, Toronto, keep driving

00:32:29.380 because we're making money in our pension. 1.00

00:32:31.080 Just another one of those things for the boomers 0.99

00:32:33.480 who are already retired to profit off of it. 0.97

00:32:35.380 For a month into Mooshaw, they're celebrating.

00:32:37.400 This is great.

00:32:38.240 Okay, the 99-year lock.

00:32:39.900 Why can't Ontario just take the highway back, Jim?

00:32:42.520 Because they'd have to pay for it.

00:32:44.240 Nah, that's why.

00:32:44.960 Because the cost they sold it is a fraction of what...

00:32:48.040 Whoever would sell it is not going to sell it for the evaluation.

00:32:52.020 They're probably going to sell it for more,

00:32:53.400 thinking it's not going to go down in value.

00:32:55.440 Okay, well, tell me what better fits the definition of the 407.

00:32:59.460 Is transportation infrastructure or investment product?

00:33:03.760 Oh, that's a good one.

00:33:04.900 I'd say right now it's an investment product.

00:33:08.360 Because the CPP, yes, of course it's transportation, it's a highway,

00:33:13.180 but it's making the pension plan so much money.

00:33:17.120 What changes when infrastructure is run like a corporation instead of a public service, Jim?

00:33:20.860 They only care about profit.

00:33:22.260 They don't care about the people.

00:33:23.500 100% priority shift.

00:33:25.200 It's all about profit.

00:33:26.440 Gridlock dependency.

00:33:27.600 Does congestion on the 401 actually increase the value of the 407?

00:33:30.980 I think we've kind of proven that.

00:33:32.740 And their business has proven that.

00:33:34.340 They hope that you're stressed out.

00:33:35.580 They want the 401.

00:33:36.980 Maybe the Canadian pension group is the ones putting all those trucks parked on the side of the road.

00:33:42.560 So you go to your Apple Maps and you have to get somewhere for work, for family reasons, for whatever reason.

00:33:48.120 And always it gives you the option, right?

00:33:50.780 It gives you the toll option.

00:33:52.160 My Uber gives me the option.

00:33:53.440 And then you realize, wait a sec, it's going to be another 40 minutes if I don't pay the toll.

00:33:57.880 I don't have another 40 minutes.

00:33:59.000 Do you know how many times I've heard, hey, sir, are we taking the 407?

00:34:02.600 And I'm like, I guess we are, buddy.

00:34:04.340 Right.

00:34:04.900 Otherwise, you'll never get anywhere.

00:34:06.300 Otherwise, I'm living with you in this armpit stew of an Uber for the next three hours, right?

00:34:13.140 Okay.

00:34:13.400 So the bigger Canadian pattern, is the 407 an isolated case or part of a larger trend?

00:34:18.680 I hope it's isolated.

00:34:19.900 I haven't seen any examples like this in other parts of the country.

00:34:22.620 So many analysts are seeing it as part of a broader shift towards monetizing public assets, airports, utilities, parking systems, bridges, health care services, and even data infrastructure increasingly operate through public, private financial models.

00:34:34.820 The 407 became an early blueprint for converting public necessity into long-term revenue streams.

00:34:39.660 These analysts are saying that this is the way the country's going.

00:34:42.140 And let's face it, I was remiss by giving my answer because Mark Carney has stated a number of times they're seriously looking at privatizing the airports of the country.

00:34:51.980 that means you would say Brady and Jim incorporated here's the price tag to buy the Regina airport or

00:34:58.500 the Halifax airport you would run it now and I guarantee the boys are probably already planning

00:35:03.040 something for the next couple weeks on this too but they're really talking about doing

00:35:06.180 privatizing health care as well having two different types of health care for it and then

00:35:11.120 another privatization like they're really starting to kind of bring this up in in these back rooms

00:35:16.280 apparently oh that is don't want to see this happening but I think this may be right that

00:35:20.920 this is a bigger pattern that's going on inside of our country we're starting to have to pay for

00:35:24.480 things that used to be public services okay so you see how the headaches involved with the 407

00:35:28.840 every day for people imagine the airport in your city in canada run by the abc corporation from

00:35:36.960 name the country and they have a bit of a labor issue on the friday of a long weekend going into

00:35:43.620 the holidays and it's a work to rule their short staff and you're missing your flight because that's

00:35:49.620 the first thing that happens it's bad enough it's right now in canada imagine if it's run by a

00:35:54.160 private company and it's funny because uh i know a few people that have flown this week and they

00:35:58.140 just said they're like domestic is it is an animal house right now because no one's flying

00:36:02.100 internationally right now from canada no expensive and whatever else is going on but i have to fly

00:36:06.160 to halifax a couple weeks i'm already like the airports don't need any more headaches you add

00:36:10.480 something like this and it's going to be even worse okay and then the last one i'll ask you

00:36:13.980 about is the pension time bomb why does the cpp ownership make this politically complicated

00:36:19.980 Well, because our aging population, the stress on the pension, and as a matter of fact, this has been sort of intimated by Mark Carney and his team with the Liberals, that they would like to use the pension money for investment, for the wealth fund, for different things.

00:36:37.860 so it used to be that was taboo you would never ever touch the money in the canadian pension plan

00:36:44.100 that whatever government how you were running it you were running it with this but never that and

00:36:49.980 now carnie's peeling back the layers and go you know what i think we can use that for things and

00:36:54.380 that could be a dangerous road to go down because that if we lose that for a lot of canadians they

00:37:00.660 lose everything the reason why i would consider this being a time bomb is because canadians are

00:37:06.580 simultaneously the customers the investors and the resource group here

00:37:12.180 right that's not good this will eventually eat itself the what the

00:37:18.200 highway the political pressure group right so your political pressure group

00:37:22.280 you're a customer and you're the original investor in the product right

00:37:26.920 those three things shouldn't really I know what are the other but but this is

00:37:31.640 only affecting the people in southern Ontario from anywhere and other parts of

00:37:36.120 country it's your cpp is gaining money from the profit of this but you don't use it well it makes

00:37:42.120 it probably makes our friends in alberta a little happy because when we were out there they're like 0.75

00:37:45.800 ottawa ottawa ottawa ontario you're screwing us you're screwing us well we're not you could be in

00:37:51.880 any province in the country you'll never use the 407 but you'll benefit from it you're going to 0.95

00:37:56.040 benefit from it well well you got closing thoughts on this because i'm i'm still angry um and i'll

00:38:02.440 be i'll be brutally honest here i don't drive on the 407 anymore i don't even drive on the 401

00:38:08.440 hell i do not drive in ontario i try not to drive at all i i'm on the 401 and the 407 and the 400

00:38:16.520 and the 404 unfortunately every day for work for family for leisure i'm on the highways all the

00:38:22.280 time but this is part of a bigger trend happening to me in north america and in canada it's called

00:38:29.320 the public private consortium yeah that was the whole thing with the eglinton crosstown and look

00:38:34.560 how way over budget way past schedule and a lot of governments figure if i can get the brady and

00:38:41.820 nick corporation to work with us it'll be less taxpayer dollars they'll benefit it's win-win

00:38:47.740 well we just registered the company yesterday so hopefully this is on our way i i'm not convinced

00:38:52.960 it's always win-win i'm not convinced that's always the way to go unfortunately the reality

00:38:58.820 is in Canada, especially in the big city areas, you can't build subways and go bus designated lanes

00:39:06.880 and LRTs and roads fast enough to develop and meet the demand in the population. Our

00:39:13.340 infrastructure, as you said, is way behind. So if we can't build it fast enough, we have to come up

00:39:18.960 with other solutions to keep things flowing because they've done all these in-depth studies.

00:39:23.540 We are losing billions of dollars in productivity every year for being stuck in traffic.

00:39:29.980 I really do feel like Ontario needs to give up the attachment to as many millions of people that we have and start trying to encourage people to move to other provinces.

00:39:40.640 But that's not reality.

00:39:41.720 I know, but that's not going to happen.

00:39:43.580 I mean, like Ontario just started a new working relationship with New Brunswick.

00:39:46.920 And we're going to send out some guys here, and then hopefully you can meet a nice family

00:39:51.220 or get yourself structured in a white picket fence, and you'll stay in Moncton forever.

00:39:56.680 And we might have to get to that point because, yes, we can complain about bad deals.

00:40:01.320 Yes, we can complain about highways and infrastructure being behind.

00:40:04.400 But the real problem is there's too many people in this area, Jim.

00:40:07.700 But Brady, that's the problem.

00:40:08.960 look at this is the economic engine of the nation manufacturing yeah media finance you know like

00:40:16.560 entertainment so all these major industries the epicenter is on southern ontario that's the

00:40:22.420 reality of it and and i mean i with you like in a perfect world we'd have stretch some of this out

00:40:28.780 we'd stretch i mean the profits tried this that's one thing mike harris did everything was centralized

00:40:34.500 in toronto and they put the mto in st catharines they put the olg in sudbury so they moved it

00:40:40.660 around to different parts of the province so it wasn't all clumped in toronto but there's still

00:40:45.160 so much business and so much money and so much investment and infrastructure in the southern

00:40:50.240 ontario region yeah that until other areas of the country have a huge car plant or a data center or

00:40:59.040 you name it and a reason to go there this is where the jobs and the money are it's like i said i'm i

00:41:04.960 love it because i'm in ontario so there's lots of opportunity right there and i would be a hypocrite

00:41:09.760 to say that i don't want lots of business going on here and i don't want the highways to be full

00:41:13.840 of people that are on their way and commuting and everybody's doing something and generating an

00:41:17.520 income but it does get to the point where like you said you're now if you have to pay 1700 a month

00:41:25.120 to make just to give yourself a few extra hours a week yeah a few hours look brady

00:41:31.440 i don't know if the jobs and opportunities are worth it if they get to the point where they move

00:41:36.080 major job centers to muncton to moose jaw to prince george bc to chicotomy quebec so there's

00:41:44.320 areas of the country where you don't have to live in southern ontario and you could build a career

00:41:49.040 and build your job resume in those other areas.

00:41:53.000 That's part of the problem.

00:41:54.380 You have to set the industry and other parts for people for a reason to go there.

00:41:58.580 So in the early 90s, a group of really smart people sat down and said,

00:42:03.360 hey, we've got to do something about this 401.

00:42:05.760 This thing is going to eat itself.

00:42:07.160 It's going to implode.

00:42:08.140 We've got to get something going.

00:42:09.640 And they come up with this really good idea to make, let's make a toll highway.

00:42:13.760 And then they sell the land and they sell the highway.

00:42:16.640 And then they buy it back somewhat.

00:42:19.040 but we can't actually buy it out no we're we're now we're stuck in a position where we either

00:42:26.840 need to slowly keep increasing rates do something extreme like let the trucks drive on it for free

00:42:32.600 that's my vote and we don't i'm always i just don't like seeing things that are subsidized

00:42:39.800 get more subsidies but what is the what is and i don't mean that as a whole like there's some

00:42:45.280 things that should get more money that's in more funding but i mean we can't keep going with the

00:42:48.740 way it is we can't it's not workable unfortunately until they as nick said build more credible um

00:42:57.880 transit solutions for people that's still you can have that that's great but you're still gonna have

00:43:03.260 all those trucks chewing up the 401 every day you might be this might be the best answer like i said

00:43:09.760 it's not that i love it and i'm not i'm not crapping on on your answer i think you brought

00:43:14.480 one because at least you brought one nick brought one too but i like yours a little bit better than

00:43:18.640 nick's but no brady this is part of the problem in a war room think tank with all the experts

00:43:24.160 everyone's going to be passionate about what they think is the solution but the at the end of the

00:43:28.480 day all levels of government and academics and the experts in the field of logistics from

00:43:33.520 transportation have to get together and come up with a better way not just for the 407 401 in

00:43:39.440 southern ontario but sort of applying it all across everywhere yes apply it everywhere apply

00:43:44.560 it everywhere so hopefully alberta or vancouver is not going to see a toll ruled come anytime soon

00:43:49.440 um that's not already there right now because it sounds like we don't know how to build a new one

00:43:54.080 because we would be doing a deal like this again well i know from like when you're going from

00:43:57.760 dartmouth to halifax and going on the angus l mcdonald bridge there's a toll there's a toll

00:44:01.920 and there's tolls in vancouver too like there's there's tolls out there but i mean there's nothing

00:44:05.280 like this nothing like this there's no seventeen hundred dollars a month to get to work and back

00:44:09.760 right just to just to make sure that you have a couple extra hours with your kids but thanks

00:44:13.840 jim for sitting down and trying to come up with a solution for me the great thing about this though

00:44:19.440 is that we have an open comment section perfect which means we're going to get a lot of solutions

00:44:23.760 hopefully in that comment section they're going to call me and you names they're going to call

00:44:27.280 me and you brilliant and everything in between and the best part about this i'll get on the 427

00:44:31.600 and the 407 before it gets too busy thanks jim thanks do the best brother

True Patriot Love - May 08, 2026

Ontario’s 407 Deal Is Still Costing Drivers

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