True Patriot Love - Small Towns： Are They In Trouble？

00:00:00.000 Small towns and cities across Canada are dying on the vine and you've got a list of some of the

00:00:05.080 reasons. Demographic hollow out Mike, economic squeeze, the missing middle, the housing paradox

00:00:11.160 and of course the urban rural polarization. Add on wildfires Mike, it's a problem.

00:00:22.080 On a recent trip to the west I made some observations. On a recent trip to the east

00:00:26.840 my good friend Paul Micucci also made some observations about what is happening in small

00:00:31.740 towns and cities across this country this is tplmedia.ca I'm Mike and this is Paul Micucci

00:00:37.680 hey Mike how are you good thanks for taking the time to talk about this because this really

00:00:41.980 it's kind of anecdotal in the sense that we just experienced a trip uh different directions across

00:00:48.420 the country and we landed back in Toronto with some commonalities in the way of observations

00:00:54.340 about the small towns and cities across Canada.

00:00:58.560 I, for example, you know, went up through Ontario

00:01:02.120 where there are towns that were once bustling

00:01:05.240 like Thunder Bay and Sault Ste. Marie

00:01:07.120 that are now diminishing in size.

00:01:10.680 Thunder Bay felt a lot like a ghost town.

00:01:13.240 In fact, the morning that I was there,

00:01:14.980 there was bears wandering through town.

00:01:17.760 Yeah, well, you know, I think it's down

00:01:20.120 to almost 100,000 people.

00:01:21.740 And I remember I did a project in Thunder Bay years ago, and it was almost double the population.

00:01:26.240 I think it was more than double the population.

00:01:28.400 So I think what we're finding, Mike, you know, these, and I did the same thing.

00:01:32.880 So I went from Kingston into Ottawa, Montreal, then hopped over, you know, that long drive into New Brunswick.

00:01:41.720 And, you know, you realize how big this nation really is and how intense it is to upkeep the infrastructure of this nation.

00:01:50.160 So, you know, as you're going and you're looking at it, you're thinking, wow, how do we how do we do this as a as a country?

00:01:56.040 Because, you know, 40 million people and we're spread out like very dispersed.

00:02:01.440 So, you know, as you're driving along, you see a small town, you see a home here, a home there.

00:02:06.180 And you think, OK, well, these, you know, they they they need water.

00:02:10.440 They need electricity. They need sanitation, infrastructure, roads.

00:02:16.160 You need all these things. These people have to be educated somehow.

00:02:19.180 there have to be schools they have to health care uh so you're you know you you're kind of looking

00:02:24.620 at you think wow i don't know how this all is managing it and then you start you actually get

00:02:30.380 the feeling when you're out there we're so remote right now somebody living here cuts a finger off

00:02:35.740 they're in a lot of trouble or how the hell did the kids get to school in the middle of winter

00:02:40.540 all the way out here yeah well and and and we mentioned uh you know a couple times i've talked

00:02:46.300 to you about it uh the number of traffic uh stops and number of construction stops that we endured

00:02:55.420 through our trip i can't even count them it had to be over 400 uh places on the highways where we

00:03:03.020 were going down to 60 then back up to 110 and down to 60. same to the west yeah so you know and that

00:03:09.180 by the way is the same highway that we were on it's the major yeah thoroughfare of canada yep

00:03:15.740 yeah man the work that has to happen on that just to keep it moving well but moving for who mike so

00:03:21.420 that was my question as i was traveling across i'm sitting there and i'm you know char is with

00:03:25.980 me and we're talking we're having this conversation i said who do you think lives here right because

00:03:31.180 we were actually listening to the show that um i think jim and and brady uh and liam did which was

00:03:38.860 on birth rates right so here we are listening to sean i said char you know birth rates are down

00:03:44.540 we know that there has been a hollow out demographically of these areas you the young

00:03:50.620 people have fled into the urban centers they're not staying you know they're going into high-tech

00:03:57.100 jobs they're not staying on farms or anywhere else and we're actually it's interesting so as

00:04:02.220 we're going further east and we got into like pei we're talking and we're up in tignish which is the

00:04:09.340 far corner of the northeast of canada yeah that is remote very remote and we're having a great

00:04:14.860 interview with uh francis morrissey um from royal star foods a terrific guy and he's telling us the

00:04:22.540 story how their kids are no longer there and that they've had to actually uh bring in a group of

00:04:31.180 filipino people which are doing amazing uh in the food processing of the lobsters and the fish that

00:04:36.940 he's doing but you know they didn't pass it down to a generation or a community of people there

00:04:43.260 that were waiting for those jobs like many generations did uh they're supplementing yeah

00:04:49.020 they're supplementing with immigration trying to keep an industry going which i think is it's a

00:04:53.740 wonderful story yeah but it is the story of two tales right this because if you have a farm or

00:05:00.460 quite frankly maybe you don't have a farm maybe you've sold your farm and quite frankly you're

00:05:05.180 just a senior living there your kids aren't there so the tax base isn't there that's true so now

00:05:12.220 now infrastructure starts to suffer now there aren't new schools going in there's no it's hard

00:05:17.500 to attract people to come into an area that's disintegrating right which then causes the economic

00:05:22.700 squeeze so now all of a sudden you know all your costs all your rural business costs are going up

00:05:28.620 right because uh the businesses that are still there don't have as many people to sell to so in

00:05:34.460 order for them to stay there they have to increase their prices to insure your property uh whether

00:05:40.300 it's a hardware store or a grocery store any of those have to go up right like the cost because

00:05:46.700 they have to maintain they have the same cost base which is very interesting and anyone coming into

00:05:52.620 the town you know and that was a big i think you mentioned mike before the show remember during

00:05:57.900 covet everyone was like okay let's move to a small town and work remotely yeah yeah i came across an

00:06:04.140 an article from mclean's mclean's magazine from 2018 so uh they were talking about how

00:06:10.680 the article is entitled the rumor of the death of small towns and cities in canada is greatly

00:06:16.520 exaggerated right and that was because they experienced this this impact of people vacating

00:06:22.720 the urban centers uh at that time but that fascination quickly vanished oh yeah people

00:06:30.020 well now you have to come back to work right so now people who had actually gone out so now

00:06:33.920 other cottages which is a whole other issue so now now you've actually gone out and maybe you've

00:06:39.900 bought that property you know outside the city a couple hours and you were working remotely and

00:06:45.200 now your company said we want you to come back to work so you've you've actually went and you've

00:06:51.420 renovated or you've even built a new property well I got to tell you from a construction perspective

00:06:56.680 the cost to construct in rural Canada is more than in urban well it must be just based on the

00:07:03.780 availability of people to build it based on the materials getting there based on so many other

00:07:09.000 factors yeah yeah you have to you have to bring your specialty trades from afar you have to put

00:07:14.260 them up overnight you know somewhere they can get to they have the their cost of gas travel

00:07:19.440 everything else and then quite frankly materials you know uh let's be serious during covid we

00:07:26.260 actually for the most part everything we were building we were going and hauling so we would

00:07:31.540 to the lumber yard and haul our own wood we would go to you know the steel guy and we'd sit inside

00:07:37.140 his factory and we'd fabricate with the steel guy and then we'd bring a trailer and we put the

00:07:42.020 the steel on the trailer and ship it to site like we were going and getting everything that supply

00:07:46.260 chain is really uh that's that was a really practical at the moment yeah necessity for you

00:07:52.260 but you can't do that in rural canada because quite frankly you got to get it shipped somewhere

00:07:56.100 where you can pick it and that somewhere is quite far so what do you have to do do you have to have

00:08:00.500 everything delivered that's going to go into the construction process almost entirely before you

00:08:05.460 even begin like okay you get the footings in the foundations or whatever yeah but then there's a

00:08:10.020 lot of materials that work in tandem you probably have to have them all there and the trades to

00:08:16.180 arrive at the same time everything has to go rural canada is a little wild for weather i'm sure that

00:08:21.700 can be a factor but for anyone who's ever you know for the home builders on the listening to the show

00:08:26.980 they're probably screaming at it sorry no and that's fine the way trades work for the most part

00:08:32.420 like in the in the residential construction business they'll have six projects going at once

00:08:37.380 right and so what they'll do is they'll give you two days of their your time or their time they'll

00:08:42.500 give it to your project and then you have to fight them for an extra day or two to stay on your site

00:08:46.980 because they're actually going to one of the other six because they got to keep working and your

00:08:52.100 project may be delayed so your electrician who you said come you know next week you might call

00:08:57.140 him up and say well the you know the plumber didn't get out of the way so i'm going to delay

00:09:02.020 you a week so he keeps six projects going to maximize his return you have to ship you have

00:09:07.940 to move someone up into rural canada and get them to build quite frankly they're going to ding you

00:09:13.060 a high cost because you know they're not going to sit around waiting for the plumber if they have to

00:09:17.700 to sit around waiting for the plumber you're paying the plumber and the electrician and because

00:09:22.500 there's no other job if you're in the city that's okay yeah well they go to the next job and they

00:09:26.920 don't bill you they bill you roll yeah everybody's sitting on a holding fee exactly until things

00:09:31.940 organize oh my the project management would be very uh anxiety building yeah so and then remember

00:09:38.540 so just before i finish you know now you know the and i had friends that did this and they would

00:09:43.440 call me up and they'd say i have a friend who was uh having lunch with me yesterday he's moving

00:09:48.220 uh you know into another country and i said to him that's great he's going to build his own home

00:09:53.220 i said that's awesome you know you have to be careful so now you have infrastructure decay so

00:09:58.580 now we're talking about the fact that these uh cities are getting older they don't have the

00:10:02.720 populations people have moved away well you know do you have enough power do you have enough you

00:10:09.260 is your septic system or your you know your sewage systems that are actually in your neighborhood

00:10:14.620 are they up to speed will they handle supply like there's there's a lot of you have to be at that

00:10:20.300 point you know in a city you don't have to worry about those things like it's pretty simple you

00:10:23.820 find a lot right you you know it's going to be serviced you walk over with a pickaxe you lift

00:10:29.340 the sewer cap you look down you know you figure out pipe size of existing water there's some pretty

00:10:35.100 standard things you do you know you figure out where your you know the the power lines are coming

00:10:40.540 in and where your gas is it's it's pretty simple stupid right no not hard to do now i'm you know

00:10:48.060 and uh i'm out on a farm or i'm out in a small city you got somebody with two witching sticks

00:10:53.100 trying to find your well location yeah you might have 10 25 30 acres that you're trying to figure

00:10:58.220 out and all of a sudden you you go to locate and you figure out hey i have to run that line another

00:11:03.180 10 acres from the main road ah you know it's it's not easy oh i have to divert my road and entryway

00:11:09.740 because i have services coming in all that's it seems like it does seem like a massive undertaking

00:11:15.500 to build in there has to you almost have to have a reason to do it right but okay the reason to do

00:11:21.340 it but then what's your resale mike so then you know it's a forever home like great but your

00:11:25.980 forever home is it a good investment at that point because what are you going to do with it and now

00:11:30.940 people say well i'm going to go find an old home and i'm going to renovate an old home

00:11:35.260 well old homes and like and that's one thing i noticed on our trip down east old homes are old

00:11:42.460 like you know like depression old yeah like 1930s i promise you paul from personal experience yeah

00:11:50.780 these are at 30 000 feet are glorious beautiful thing but boy when you open the front door and

00:11:56.060 start to live in there i promised you the hundred year old problems are much different than new home

00:12:02.220 problems oh yeah uh so yeah if you're going to create a forever home for your family how do you

00:12:07.420 build this and does your family even want to stay there like take a look at uh your your guest uh

00:12:13.100 morrissey down there in in the east well his family doesn't want anything to do with the

00:12:17.580 business they've gone off this way he still has that infrastructure that is his life and to be

00:12:23.100 honest with you is it really worth all that much money uh probably not he's probably better just

00:12:29.100 keeping service on that it's not a massive return it's not a real estate bubble that you're going to

00:12:34.060 hit in these rural areas right there's something interesting i wanted to point out yesterday in a

00:12:39.580 discussion with uh one of our immigration experts uh phil oh yeah i love phil uh he was uh talking

00:12:47.100 to brady i listened in on this he was talking to brady about how uh pr points and citizenship points

00:12:55.260 are not awarded for being in toronto or vancouver and that sort of thing and i thought to myself

00:13:00.620 when i heard this yeah well this should be some kind of inspiration for rebounding some of these

00:13:05.820 towns because if you want citizenship you're better off being outside the major centers

00:13:11.900 how is that not becoming more appealing or is it that our migrant

00:13:18.340 new immigrants to canada just don't know that this is a possibility have we presented to them

00:13:26.320 that this is not a good thing to do therefore creating the demise of these these areas that

00:13:32.940 are being hollowed out by demographic and and birth rate issues i don't know why why we haven't

00:13:39.760 made a bigger push on saying get to these rural areas and help us rebuild. Yeah if there's

00:13:46.160 industries so I agree with you I think if there's an industry that's viable and there should be

00:13:51.640 because you figure we did a show recently on tariffs and the 50% tariffs and the number of

00:13:57.040 items that were getting whacked and how we had to become self-sustaining as a nation so common

00:14:03.020 sense I agree with you it makes sense that you know any new person coming to Canada should be

00:14:07.880 diverted into a rural community whether it be farming mining uh or any of the other fisheries

00:14:15.000 whatever it is right because quite frankly there's industries there that we can self-sustain

00:14:19.720 ourselves if we can provide those items nationally we can we can do that the challenge is a little

00:14:26.680 bit of that mike as we got going and it kind of tweaked me before the show and we started digging

00:14:31.240 into it now you got to layer on some new things and and that we're seeing uh and i think it's like

00:14:37.480 one of those oh you know one of those surprise uh-oh uh because now we're seeing wildfires

00:14:42.920 everywhere across canada again for you know the third or fourth year straight we're having these

00:14:48.040 smoke warnings in the major you know if you look at a map of canada right now uh and i'll try to

00:14:53.880 provide one for for nick right after the show that we can put in right here yeah but uh it's

00:14:59.960 it's um it's lit up right across the country now every rural sector in almost every province

00:15:05.880 yeah so so now the reason and the reason i bring it up so now i decide i want to go to a small town

00:15:12.280 um or you know the the government says to me you go live in a small town or even go to a fairly

00:15:17.160 sizable city thunder bay so you have to find housing which is tough sometimes because there's

00:15:22.200 not as much housing so you got to get there you got to find housing you got to secure your family

00:15:26.600 in a nice environment which is tougher because your selection is lower right um hopefully you'll

00:15:31.880 be adopted well so people will you know be happy to see you so that's always well we can touch on

00:15:37.000 that in a minute as well because services need to be there for immigrants like bridging programs yeah

00:15:43.160 language and all that stuff so so you get there so and um you know and i'm going to take white horse

00:15:49.080 so you know as an as an example of a city because i i was just watching before with christoph

00:15:55.080 an interesting video on how white horse has fireproofed themselves so now you land in this

00:16:01.560 city and you know the 36 000 people i think if i get that wrong sorry white horse but

00:16:06.920 36 000 people living in white horse uh been up there before they've decided they have significant

00:16:13.400 challenges now because they have infrastructure but they're at risk from now uh wildfires

00:16:19.960 where it's located that makes sense right it does you yeah and i've heard this that the wildfires

00:16:25.600 well that's interesting paul because we're just talking about this before the show as well

00:16:30.040 really really remote north places have uh fires burning about 365 days of the year exactly this

00:16:36.500 is an ongoing concern so they they they now because they've realized it good on them like

00:16:41.820 that's very smart so they realize that their assets are all at risk of having zero value

00:16:46.780 uh insurance is hard to get so what they've done is they've created a mitigation plan so they've

00:16:52.740 went out and they've actually created a uh energy break or a fuel break what is that so they went

00:16:59.060 out and cleared two kilometers of trees so mostly spruce and pine uh adjacent to the city i've been

00:17:04.820 up there a couple times and so and it's very dense like like most honestly and that's the other thing

00:17:10.840 got me when i'm heading east how dense the forests are you leave the the but it's like

00:17:16.680 like every inch is another it's like like another tree going up it's it's not like wide dispersed

00:17:23.240 which i runs wick is wild as you drive through new brunswick you think if i if i walk if i enter

00:17:29.080 the woods for a nature break yeah i never find the car again oh yeah unless you're great with a

00:17:35.080 compass you'd be you'd be in trouble and you can't take a gps for sure so so now they go there and

00:17:41.560 they have a couple kilometer fuel break outside and around the city so what do they do they they

00:17:47.000 just plow that down it's like devoid of vegetation of any kind but it's honestly they had to get the

00:17:53.640 government to give them i think it was somewhere ups just under 20 million dollars to clear cut

00:18:01.080 that two kilometers and it's a big swatch it's like you know let's first say 50 kilometers around

00:18:07.320 the city they have to actually create like a moat it's almost like that's what i was gonna say yeah

00:18:12.760 used to do in castles yeah so the city now and and then so think about it so you're a new canadian

00:18:19.960 you come to a small city the government doesn't have the money to go and create these clear-cut

00:18:27.400 moats or clear-cut areas fuel breaks around 50 times no across canada no or whatever yeah

00:18:35.240 whatever the numbers how many fires are burning if you can find out right now in canada as we're

00:18:39.000 doing this oh yeah it's crazy so so the government doesn't have the money so in or if you want to

00:18:43.880 stay there now so what's what's really becoming clear in my mind mike it's not only do you have

00:18:48.440 all the you know economic squeeze you have the demographic push um you have the missing middle

00:18:54.760 class and the housing paradox that we just talked about you have all these things now you layer on

00:19:00.600 the fact that you have a critical wildfire issue so no it's not that your bridge found fell down

00:19:07.880 or your water uh system got contaminated it's now that you may be burnt to ash or you're evacuated

00:19:14.520 for an extended period of time right well and if you're you know if you're evacuated who knows what

00:19:20.360 happens so but but now you have that issue so you layer that issue on and you're like okay

00:19:26.760 what cities and what groups of people now if they want to live there have the ability to do

00:19:32.280 themself now it doesn't sound like much but quite frankly i don't know if um i was lucky enough at

00:19:38.200 a very young age uh my grandfather my grandfather bought a property and developed it um in cottage

00:19:45.960 country up by the minden halliburton area okay so we cut trees all summer long so um and for those

00:19:53.560 of you it's not like trees you get in the the city these are trees like like massive trees right um

00:20:00.680 100 year old yeah behemoths like a tree is like one tree takes three men all day with chainsaws

00:20:07.320 like big like 36 inch chainsaws and you're gonna start at the top and work all the way down on them

00:20:12.680 And so we would do that all summer to clear cut the property.

00:20:16.360 So, you know, now the machinery, in the case of like Whitehorse,

00:20:20.460 they bring in the big machines that are, but again, that's very costly, right?

00:20:26.060 Well, how many fires were there, Christoph?

00:20:28.380 So right now, the 900 fires, you cannot, I mean, some of them,

00:20:32.900 but once again, we don't have that ability,

00:20:36.920 and nor the mentality that in most of these cases to go and do this.

00:20:41.180 we don't have the funds or the clear cutting equipment to clear cut fast enough to get there

00:20:45.660 to probably save them all so right so you know that that's great and they're smart enough they

00:20:51.900 did it so like good on them i was when i was watching the star i was like wow that's really

00:20:56.540 cool that they did it but that doesn't even say like at the end of the day and they even admit it

00:21:01.900 that's only one thing and they and they uh they go down and they control burn and they've actually

00:21:08.220 reseeded with aspens uh to get the spruce and pine out because aspens don't uh spruce and pine burn

00:21:15.580 like a like a like a flame to the top it just goes straight up the oils are highly flammable

00:21:21.020 in in the green in the green elements of the plant yeah exactly whereas aspen smolders down below

00:21:28.300 right right yeah so they're planting aspens as fire lines so as they as they control burn they

00:21:34.460 plant the aspens and then they have helicopters in the air like think about that now they have

00:21:39.740 helicopters going almost 24 7 to see because what they have to start doing if it happens

00:21:47.020 they have to be careful of floating ash so once the fire gets close to the fuel line then it'll

00:21:54.860 start to burn up and it'll start to ash out and ash depending on wind currents will start to be

00:22:00.940 going over so if it starts landing over the fire line it'll restart the fires once again that and

00:22:07.420 they have to bury that under quick so they have to be moving with bulldozers to try to to try to

00:22:12.300 take the element because you can't spray it and you know we don't have enough uh water bombers

00:22:19.260 to get to everyone now even the 900 fires you're talking about so now we're in this kind of critical

00:22:25.500 crazy position where you had all these other things now you've got this so

00:22:30.920 all these things i hate to say it when people are assessing what your value of your real estate is

00:22:37.380 when you're getting to the point where you're trying to sell what would what would make someone

00:22:43.360 want to live that life because that's a pretty hard life yeah man you get you you raise a good

00:22:47.520 point so your home your real estate is you have to just realize that real estate that property

00:22:54.160 it has no value no value it's just your livable value it's your it's right so why would you fix

00:23:00.340 it up right so you wouldn't have a custom nice home in a small well you just wouldn't do it

00:23:05.680 you'd have a very rudimentary but then you also need a decent living by which you can build a

00:23:10.840 retirement because you're not doing what boomers did in the major cities and selling your home at

00:23:16.020 a huge profit to care for the rest of your life you actually have to have a job that is putting

00:23:22.240 money in the bank and you still have to have a lifestyle yeah you may not maintain the home

00:23:26.600 like you're going to get a two hundred thousand dollars a year value out of it but you do want

00:23:32.700 to live in a nice house so to do that we have to have jobs and industries and places for people to

00:23:40.060 go and make money well more of that more so than even in the city i think yeah well you do and it's

00:23:47.920 interesting so coming into the show someone handed me this and it's it's actually just from a few

00:23:52.740 days ago which i was i was shocked because they didn't pick this up and this is on ontario

00:23:57.780 cottagers right are now uh being warned especially up in muskoka to be careful with the dry conditions

00:24:09.180 coming up well we have yeah a heat wave on the way right and uh yeah and you know the article

00:24:16.000 talks about the high number of airbnbs that are actually in here that people developed through

00:24:21.080 covid that they create these beautiful airbnbs that people and the challenge is the people going

00:24:26.900 up into these areas don't understand the issues with lighting fires fire bands what happens with

00:24:33.140 the wind the lake weather nor do they care no so they're you know they're out there having

00:24:37.400 you know marshmallow roasts and getting a few in them and having fun but not paying attention

00:24:43.080 So, you know, what maybe your nest egg that you thought going up to a beautiful cottage country, which is not even your full-time home, just your partial home, has almost the same conditions now.

00:24:54.140 So it really is becoming a challenge.

00:24:56.840 And we haven't still as a nation sat down to address what to do.

00:25:04.000 Whereas Whitehorse, quite frankly, they're trying, right?

00:25:09.000 They're actually thinking through this.

00:25:11.400 It's a city, and they're saying, you know, how do we slow this fire down?

00:25:15.760 Where are the brakes?

00:25:16.860 Like, what do we do if this happens?

00:25:18.320 Well, that's management, right?

00:25:19.780 I mean, there's not a solution.

00:25:21.860 There's no solution.

00:25:22.820 There's only managing the problem.

00:25:25.660 The cottage country thing really got me.

00:25:27.440 I mean, the Airbnb thing, you're right.

00:25:30.500 I mean, tenants can be careless enough.

00:25:34.640 Airbnb, you get an Airbnb for a couple of reasons.

00:25:39.000 one you're going to go on vacation and you want to do something with the family and maybe you'll

00:25:43.220 be more cautious or whatever but yeah you're going to have a bonfire you paid for the week

00:25:47.080 you're going to have a bonfire yeah even if the even if the sign in town says high fire risk no

00:25:53.280 fires you yeah you're going to do it the rocks are out there by the chairs right what are you

00:25:59.480 going to do sticks are in the forest i'm sorry people are going to do it sure they are and then

00:26:03.700 the other element of uh the airbnb is it's a party scenario and yeah flicking butts who knows

00:26:12.760 what's going to happen but you're right uh airbnb stands for uh air bed and burn maybe because

00:26:19.520 people are careless i can see several problems coming out of that but okay so now how do they

00:26:27.300 deal with it because now they're in also do you want to live in a town full of airbnbs sorry no

00:26:33.200 no i'm i'm with you on that i don't but you know as i'm as again as i'm driving east and i'm you

00:26:38.080 know we're going through and i'm saying see all the dead trees oh yeah right so that's the other

00:26:43.840 thing so the worst winters we have now the colder winters the worst winters the windier winters the

00:26:48.880 icier winters more trees fall down more trees are knocked down and the asian beetle has destroyed

00:26:55.120 so many swaths of forests that just stand there like timber now exactly so which are just ripe

00:27:00.720 for this so so now on top of all these things which the you know the rural canada is enduring

00:27:07.440 they really unfortunately when we talk about infrastructure issues now we have to lump this in

00:27:12.880 and if we lump this in if there's no plan how do we develop plans and it does i guess mike where

00:27:20.240 my thinking goes to and i know people you know probably don't like the concept i wouldn't if i

00:27:25.920 was living there now you have to start to amalgamate people like take areas and say okay

00:27:33.380 do you mean actually push the physicality of these towns to together yeah so you have to take

00:27:40.240 ridings or areas and push them into one i know politically they hate that idea because you know

00:27:44.820 a lot of votes in rural canada you know get a lot of emphasis because very frankly they count as a

00:27:50.380 seat right yeah so you know and that's always the argument if i have more people so i should have

00:27:55.280 more seats in the area with higher populations than less but you know quite frankly representations

00:28:00.480 required no matter what so there you are yeah exactly but but you know for the most part take

00:28:05.680 a take away the politics which you know politics plays in everything from infrastructure to life

00:28:11.440 um you know yeah the over the last decade we as a community or as canadians have emphasized

00:28:18.800 infrastructure in the big city so the political push on infrastructure has basically pushed us

00:28:24.480 to do more upgrades to build more condos mill more retirement homes mill that's just reality

00:28:30.640 that happened you know you can't deny that which meant the decay of the infrastructure in smaller

00:28:35.920 cities now with all the influx of wildfires and all the problems with declining populations

00:28:41.920 you need to start to say to people okay you need to transition into this if we're going to take

00:28:46.400 care of you now we're going to have to transition you into this area and around this area we're

00:28:51.680 going to have to build fuel brakes and we're going to have to try to find a way to make sure

00:28:56.560 you're safe i mean and you have basic needs to survive because we can't just leave you out there

00:29:03.760 like i think it is a moral responsibility that we have to have that conversation now well i think

00:29:08.080 that people might have to be given the opportunity to do something that is it's going to have to be

00:29:12.320 government-backed paul i mean nobody's going to give up their property i'm not giving up my family

00:29:17.360 property for 150 years just to go move over to thunderville over there i never even liked the

00:29:23.160 thundervillians so you know i think that that i i can see the challenges in it but i think that if

00:29:29.480 it's presented in a way that is look we're going to build better infrastructure we're going to have

00:29:33.120 places for school there's going to be jobs we're moving a government uh a department of the

00:29:38.580 government federal government here the provincial government here so there's jobs we're going to

00:29:43.100 create that i think you have to create an appeal factor right yeah we're not doing that anywhere

00:29:49.160 other countries do it you know and we've talked about on other shows you know and uh you know

00:29:53.900 look what britain's doing britain's britain's building communities right yeah multi multi

00:29:58.980 income multi-scale multicultural communities and the other thing they're doing is they're

00:30:03.900 nationalizing things like the water for example the um the water uh system the the water i guess

00:30:12.020 treatment facilities and the infrastructure the piping and stuff was last done kind of the late

00:30:18.100 60s 70s and it was done by a company that was given the contract to do it now all of that is

00:30:23.980 disintegrating uh you know the it's time for the nation to take it over so they're actually

00:30:30.620 nationalizing their water they did the same thing with steel so that they can keep an industry

00:30:35.300 moving in manchester yeah they did the same thing they're about to do the same thing with oil

00:30:39.500 again and so that they can keep so what they're what is essentially happening there and I don't

00:30:45.460 know that it'll work is they're drawing people from rural areas to industries nearby the oil

00:30:51.800 industry the water uh the water uh rehabilitation program uh the steel factory all of those are

00:30:59.740 so if you lived in in um Peterborough or or the Kawarthas but there was work for you in Peterborough

00:31:06.220 you might move the 30 kilometers closer that it's going to make going to work convenient yeah so that

00:31:12.980 is one of the things i think that we're seeing in in uh in britain also in germany they've done this

00:31:18.740 in several ways they've drawn people out of the major centers into actual jobs moving government

00:31:25.160 facilities out there i think we have to do things like that again sudbury is a good example yeah yeah

00:31:30.640 the chinese you know i bring it up on multiple shows the chinese build cities around him so they

00:31:35.580 they create the economies or you know sectors whether it be mining or whatever and then they

00:31:42.660 build cities or you know the cities pop up because the economy and the economics of the cities are

00:31:47.560 there before right and then the people go there and they go to live and quite frankly we're it

00:31:53.100 looks like and unfortunately you know there's i don't know upwards of a hundred town cities

00:31:59.720 communities in canada right now that are going to disappear you know it's interesting paul and i

00:32:05.080 heard this and maybe you did along the way I would ask people you know what do you think about I can't

00:32:11.720 help it the politics comes in so I ask people this basic question so what do you think about

00:32:16.740 Carney what do you think about our government right now and you know consistently the response

00:32:21.380 that I get is was sad oh I don't care about them they don't care about me they don't care what we

00:32:27.320 do out here oh well we did a podcast in a small town where sylvester stallone shot rambo and the

00:32:36.220 guy told us that no we've been forgotten by the media for a long time nobody comes here they don't

00:32:41.060 care about our issues when you start to amalgamate and we're finding this as we travel the country

00:32:47.600 that even just amalgamating with shows a topic communities come together closer but we don't

00:32:53.720 make a huge effort on that front people feel abandoned right in these small towns these small

00:33:00.200 cities so how do we make that more appealing with a declining birth rate how do we save these towns

00:33:07.700 I think you're right we have to start with infrastructure plans man I think it's amalgamation

00:33:12.400 you know amalgamation honestly Mike you know in the and in the urban centers we amalgamated years

00:33:18.660 ago you know there's lots of amalgamation of cities and it was for we couldn't we couldn't

00:33:23.760 afford to have the infrastructure and the government and the overhead to keep them

00:33:28.320 was it the best thing probably not we had a lot of bumps it took us quite a while to get through

00:33:33.360 and even today we see some of the challenges with amalgamation but you know we got through it and

00:33:39.180 quite frankly it was because of the same issues our cost base was becoming too high now with the

00:33:44.780 cost base becoming too high and the infrastructure decaying i think it's amalgamation of the small

00:33:49.780 cities into into bigger cities um i know people won't love it wow but could they love it like

00:33:56.360 let's see what that looks like yeah i mean when you say we need to amalgamate cities and we're

00:34:01.200 going to move you guys together yeah that sounds like a forced hand yeah but there's got to be a

00:34:05.280 way to do this paul that makes some sense that has appeal like i say to what is the beacon that

00:34:10.100 that the government puts up or that you know industry puts up to get people there well

00:34:15.880 unfortunately by not doing anything it forces it it actually just erodes to the point where it's

00:34:22.240 done so you know there is and that's a sad thing to think about but that's what will happen right

00:34:28.700 and so you know there is a there is a quite a few articles out there that talk about by 2030

00:34:33.680 I think upwards of 50 cities will have just disappeared.

00:34:38.160 So, you know, they won't be able to have a city hall.

00:34:40.980 They won't be able to have a mayor.

00:34:42.200 They won't be able to have a council.

00:34:43.740 So they'll just, there'll be people living sporadically

00:34:47.060 with very little health care under the region.

00:34:51.680 You know, I don't know how they'll take care of themselves,

00:34:53.960 feed themselves, find shelter.

00:34:55.760 Maybe this is a regional thing, Paul.

00:34:58.060 Maybe this becomes a regional issue.

00:35:00.380 I mean, you take a look at it.

00:35:01.420 How many regions do we have in Ontario?

00:35:03.100 sorry i don't know the number offhand but maybe what we need is a regional strategy that encourages

00:35:09.180 people to be part of certain regions and other regions to incentivize to to create amalgamation

00:35:15.980 by the way is a great thing amalgamation rarely causes problems amalgamation of cities has made

00:35:25.020 great cities in this country you know bringing smaller towns and cities together but when you're

00:35:31.180 in such a rural widespread area with ownership in in indigenous areas and things like that

00:35:39.580 and maybe that's the other thing there's areas in this country that are really indigenous based

00:35:46.220 and those cities nearby could use that infrastructure boost as well why are we not creating

00:35:53.020 that amalgamation no i agree mike you know and i didn't hit on it but you know and people can say

00:35:59.100 well i don't like the idea but you know what honestly look at whitehorse so you know let me

00:36:04.860 just use that example if you were really interested in staying you as a community would have figured

00:36:10.540 some of the things that they're figuring out and they're trying in whitehorse right now to attempt

00:36:14.300 to stay so you would have you know you would have actually figured out fuel breaks you would have

00:36:18.540 done controlled burns you would have you know gone out and and tried to immigrate new people to your

00:36:25.100 area like they're doing up in technician like there are things that you would have actively done

00:36:30.300 to make industry come towards you protect that industry create safety if you didn't do it and

00:36:37.420 you start now it's probably too late and then i don't know if you didn't do it yeah i see your

00:36:41.820 point yeah you didn't do it you kind of let this happen you did let that like you know i'm so you

00:36:46.300 know and quite frank and listen the terrible thing is it's a lot of people it's a lot of older people

00:36:51.900 that are stuck or still in these same these smaller towns yeah right their kids left but

00:36:57.500 you know they weren't able to go out and grab a chainsaw and do uh you know controlled burns

00:37:01.980 they weren't able to do that that's unfortunate and that's the sad thing of this quite frankly

00:37:06.940 because you know that's that whole thing in real estate when you stay too long you don't sell your

00:37:11.420 property you know your value can go down and that's what we're going to see a little bit of

00:37:16.060 for those people who moved to those towns saying they were going to live the holy bliss of small

00:37:21.020 town canada they're kind of in an odd situation now because they doubled down sold their property

00:37:26.940 now the good thing is they probably sold their property inside the city for a higher amount

00:37:31.740 and hopefully they didn't build a new property then spend all that money that they made

00:37:36.700 on a new property they probably they downsized a little if they didn't downsize you know they're

00:37:41.500 probably in for quite a loss right are you kidding me who the hell made a profit on the

00:37:45.900 house that they left in toronto they people ran from the city from their mortgages they did they

00:37:51.740 did yeah a lot of them did a lot of it was unaffordability in toronto and the perfect storm

00:37:57.180 to find a reason to go yeah exactly uh well listen i i would like to talk more about amalgamation and

00:38:03.580 so what i'm going to do if you don't mind in the coming weeks and maybe even while i'm making my

00:38:07.820 trip to the west and while you're going to the east let's consider what this plan might look

00:38:12.540 like and see if we can find a couple of experts who have thought about this before yeah because

00:38:16.540 or have tried this and let's see if we got something here because i don't think it's a

00:38:20.620 terrible idea personally yes it does sound harsh on the physicality but what is worse losing your

00:38:28.540 your life your lifestyle or you know creating a better scenario that's been bought through

00:38:35.740 yeah well i think it's you know optionality unfortunately they don't have a lot and that's

00:38:41.340 the challenge and that's the sad thing about what we're seeing now this we have a beautiful country

00:38:46.460 i i don't think anyone argues it's it's massive you know for and people come here because land

00:38:54.540 you know when i when you go back to where you know my family's from all they talk about is the amount

00:38:59.580 of land you can own based on what you could own in europe and everyone's that comparison yeah oh my

00:39:05.100 god what you can get here yeah unfortunately the population and our infrastructure is just not

00:39:11.260 working right now and we see it you see it in spades as we travel across canada well uh hopefully

00:39:16.860 we'll create some industry and uh take some roadblocks away that get us back to producing

00:39:21.820 that bring these back to life some of these towns yeah or combine downs get them down yeah let's

00:39:28.140 create new industry that brings them together into one into better pockets yep sometimes sometimes

00:39:34.620 you show up with radical ideas did you know that i like this one though thanks so much uh paul

00:39:39.820 thank you and thank you for joining us don't forget uh subscribe wherever you're watching

00:39:44.300 or listening to this and keep an eye out our debate and think tank areas are about to open and

00:39:50.540 our behind the curtain uh staging area you'll be invited into that opens shortly so stay with us

00:39:59.900 Share this with a friend.

00:40:01.180 I'll see you next time.

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True Patriot Love - August 03, 2026

Small Towns： Are They In Trouble？

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