THE STATE OF EDUCATION IN CANADA
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Summary
In this episode, we speak with substitute teacher, Roger Tumanyuri, about the state of Canada's education system and how it compares to the rest of the world. We also talk about what it means to be an adult in Canada and where we rank on the global education scale.
Transcript
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Everyone keeps saying Canada has one of the best education systems in the world.
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More than half of our adults have post-secondary degrees.
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Our students still rank in the global top tier.
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and nearly half of Canadian adults struggle with basic literacy.
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So how can we be the most educated country in the world and still be falling behind?
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because if we're spending more, getting worse results,
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then maybe the system isn't as strong as we think,
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and maybe we're confusing credentials with actual education.
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And Brady Wedham, grade 11 class photo, I guess, is the look.
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And the conversation runs deep on education right now around this place.
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We've done several episodes over the last three or four weeks
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I had the opportunity to speak with Nick Dolinsky,
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And I'll recommend you go back and watch that episode as we talked about the decline of literacy in Canada.
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Today, we're going to focus on education on the whole and where we sit on the global level.
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Roger, what immediately were some of your preconceived notions about what was going on with education in Canada?
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Before looking at any data, I thought our education system in terms of reading and writing, understanding of grammar, was on the decline from when I was in high school.
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I think we were taught differently than kids today.
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But the data that I have now read would argue otherwise.
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Well, actually, it's so funny because the data that you get, depending on where you get it from, and don't forget, we have an education system that runs region to region, province to province, and on a federal level, the funding comes in to some degree.
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But when you look at the big picture across Canada, in some cases, it's comparing apples to oranges.
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And we're given two different types of stats too, right?
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So we're given the overall stats, which is the entire education system, which includes the Catholic school system, private educations, things like that, which can be a whole bunch of different types of teaching, and then the public school system, right?
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So overall, those look like they're doing very well.
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But what we specifically broke down is the public education system and how we, how do we stand on the global scale?
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like well it's interesting yes we are number 10 globally in student performance and we are
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the number one most educated population number one in the world number one now once you once again
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30,000 feet right yeah some of the stats that you found i think support this yes um well we are
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globally uh number one in um adult education attainment uh we have what do you think that is
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My initial reaction to that is, yeah, right now we're number one at adult education,
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probably because we have so much immigration coming in and so much retraining.
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And at that level, before you get to post-secondary education, it is it is free.
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So people are coming to this country and they're upgrading their skills
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and getting educated, arguably, for the first time.
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So a lot of adults are entering that education system and they're getting captured in this stat.
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It's much higher than the U.S. or the U.K. and most of Europe, actually, for that matter.
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Not all of Europe, but most according to the stats that we have here.
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And, yeah, according to the PISA 2022, so PISA actually stands for Program for International Student Assessment.
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Well, OECD is the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.
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So within that group, you have the PISA scores.
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So we're measuring or standardized testing students within the OECD countries.
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Now, remember 25 years ago when they, so they, in high school specifically, they used to have OEC.
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So anybody previously that was born after like 1985, 1986 has no idea what I'm talking about.
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But if you were born in that era or before, we had OAC, which was basically like your 13th grade, I guess, right?
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They ended up getting rid of that about 25 years ago, maybe a little bit over that now, but I think it was about 2000, 2001.
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So they would make anybody from grade 9, grade 10, grade 11, grade 12, write this equivalency test.
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So our tracking of our education got better over the years.
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And I'm wondering if this has finally caught up now.
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if we're if this is why we're seeing that well i think it's interesting because 78 of students
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meet baseline math proficiency which is something we've always maintained pretty consistently uh
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82 percent meet reading proficiency uh however uh and by the way that puts us still in the top
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10 education system globally uh you know outperforming countries like singapore japan
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South Korea and Estonia but having said that stats are also showing and and Nick if I get off
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Nick is here we just did an episode about this if I get off the rails on this please stop me
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but how we've educated for literacy in Canada is also catching up with us where we're finding out
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that a huge percentage of students arriving even to English programs at university have never read
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a book where understanding information through reading is not really working for a large
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percentage of Canadian kids. They can't read well enough to follow instructions. So it's a reading
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comprehension thing. It's not so much that they're dyslexic or there's an illiteracy. They're just
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not comprehending what they're reading, it sounds like. And it also sounds like we've left some of
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the students that struggle in the dust in the process. Yeah, well, that's always been a thing,
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right? Like we, I know that in Canada, we specifically have a really good program when
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it comes to dealing with kids with mental health, right? Autism. We have workers that are there
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specifically inside of these school systems for them, but you're right. If you don't fall into
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that category, you might kind of just fall into a category that gets left in the dust where it's
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like, you're not in that situation, so you don't need the extra attention, but maybe you do need
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a little bit more one-on-one work, but you're stuck in a group setting, right? Yeah. How do we,
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how do we actually how do we maintain that do we just hire more government jobs and have well i
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think that how we educated for a little while uh made a difference when it came to literacy
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um the the method by which we started teaching was not that that we learned which was
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phonetically phonetics yeah we learned phonics remember those books yeah well phonics was a big
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thing in the 90s too right you couldn't turn on the tv without seeing a commercial to order the
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Hooked on Phonics, which was getting adults into that system, right?
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How long did that phonetics, when did that roll up,
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It wasn't started because of this, but in the 90s it became popular,
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largely because phonics was not being taught in schools.
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and it sort of filled the gap in a private way, so to speak.
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And so that is the one area that we're starting to see now.
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and maybe you guys have a different perspective on it.
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By the way, we're not doing as well as the only North American country consistently in the global top 10 is only, sorry, outperformed.
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I want to correct myself by Singapore, Japan, Korea, and Estonia.
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We are outperforming U.S. and U.K., so I just wanted to correct myself on that.
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But if Canada is failing, most of the Western world is failing worse is the kind of the message in that.
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you know like england and and uh the u.s comparable but still doing i think they're
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they're trying to increase their they're trying to work on that right now right and like so in
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2018 it's been reported now that canada is slowly on a decline so yes we may be listed in the top
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10 and yes we may be the number one for population but there is a steady decline that's happening
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here now is that city decline happening because these other countries are starting to amp their
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game up and these numbers are balancing or is this something else that's going on well when 48
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percent of canadian adults have low literacy rates we've had this problem for a long time this has
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been it's been around for a minute yeah but from what i've read that decline is across the board
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like across the world from the 2018 testing to the 2022 testing and why do you think that it's
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contributed to covid covid okay how do we i mean are we underspending on education it just seems to
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me we overspend on everything but you know what what is it costing us to educate out there right
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now so that's a really good question so the research that i gathered says we spend 5.5
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percent of gdp on education okay okay so to put that in context um we spend like 11 to 12 percent
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on healthcare um wow so this is a still a very significant number yeah 16 to 18 percent on
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we'll call it a social safety net things like uh employment insurance and pensions but get this
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we only spend 1.2 to 1.4 and we're trying to increase that uh on defense
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so we spend more than double the amount on education than we do on national defense
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we really haven't spent much on defense in a very long time.
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Yeah, I was going to say, I think our last purchase was
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some guns that don't work and a bunch of canoes.
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So having said that, no, I think now, like you say,
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However, what this does to education when you spend 5% of,
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Singapore is the only other one that I saw that was much higher
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or South Korea, between 18,000 and 25,000 per student.
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But the dedication in those countries to that education
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The education system there is fortified by a real strict
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regiment of hard work and discipline we were talking about this before the show i was just
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about to say you know maybe this is a take that and i'm going to cut you off but maybe this is a
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take that i just come up with on my own i don't even need stats but i know firsthand from having
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an ex with a kid that i was around every day while he was in school through covid and then
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after covid that discipline is not a thing anymore in public school i went to school i was
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under the becca book system i was lucky enough to go to a private school as a young kid but i got
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strapped i got in trouble i was one of the last kids that came from that era right there was
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discipline you did something wrong you you paid a punishment for it and it kept you in line well
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there's that type of discipline but what type of discipline are you talking about i was talking
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about whipping kids no i'm not doing that nobody's doing that when you whip a child you end up with
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a brady and that's our motto for the day we're talking a bit more about physical and mental
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discipline like the kids in japan yeah um they actually have to clean the classroom and i don't
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mean tidying things up and making sure you know books are at a right angle with respect to the
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tabletops they're actually mopping the floors every day before class discipline is a big thing
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there yeah and have you ever seen the lunch rooms in a in a school in japan go look at the automated
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lunch rooms they're not automated machines they're automated people the the the class and the
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elegance that they have just putting lunches together for these kids and they look like
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five-star lunches so you're getting it yeah there's a discipline thing there and there's
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like done well in japan because i only showed up for lunch a lot of times in high school and if it
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was good lunch i stayed the rest of the day and here's the thing too about japan they even had
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discipline going all the way up once you leave school you know you have to keep a waistline a
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certain like if you're if you're if your waist is too big for how big your body is and your
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employer finds out they're actually penalized by the government what the government's penalized
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yeah there's a discipline thing that goes starts from school and goes all the way up through the
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workforce so well i think a lot of cultures actually represent that that do well on the
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list i mean if you take a look japan singapore south korea all of these asian countries have
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a discipline right and we can break down what they're not good at and we can do that all day
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long but in terms of what they're doing very well disciplining the system you know what we're really
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good at canada teaching equity okay of all things well explain equity explain fairness happens to be
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a big deal yes or so we believe in the education system uh yeah that i think that extends into
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participation trophy kind of thing bled into that certainly i mean when i was a kid growing up
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playing soccer and rugby and football you know there was a first place trophy and a second place
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trophy and that was it now everybody gets a participation award no no bronze didn't exist
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back all right okay right you either won or you were the the first loser second place yeah it was
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that now our kids are playing hockey and they don't keep score they just well i mean the time
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on the scoreboard i heard a story recently of uh it came from mexico my wife was explaining to me
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that when she was a teacher the students they would line them up every day uh at the schools
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and it was lowest marks to highest marks in the line and they they took that away and because it
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was you know parents actually became the problem why isn't my kid at this point in the line and
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stuff like that but it also became a moment where the kids were like whoa i'm not doing as good as
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you wow you get different treatment when you do well you get to be noted for doing well
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makes you want to work harder it kind of when they eliminated it i would imagine that a little
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bit of that incentive went away yes incentive can be difficult wanting what somebody else has
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often makes you work harder to get it and i think that we've eliminated that in canada
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equity replacing it no roger you're you yeah you don't have the same hairline uh maybe as brady
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does but we're going to put you in with the guys who have hair yeah and is that fair what that is
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that ultimately fair to guys like me with no hair or the guys like brady with beautiful hair no hair
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he's covering it up with that cap yeah isn't that frustrating huh so having said that brady
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leaves combs at my desk just to poke fun at that is not nice yeah it's not nice but you can take
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care of your beard with it please stop oh that's true i could i think that it makes a difference
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that students have the ability to perform achieve and be noted for it and yes if somebody's really
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struggling in a classroom that's the moment you're going to find out that's the moment you're going
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to see okay they need to be part of a different part of our education system they need special
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attention or they need to be motivated in the classroom in some way but i think keeping
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everything equal in the classroom demotivates so many people you know if you were a great student
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what do you care suddenly that's right i we're gonna skate i would argue that that's unfair to
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the high achievers yeah it demotivates them 100 do they still have an honor roll i believe that
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they still do i don't think that it operates the same way and maybe you're not even allowed to
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announce it anymore i don't know i do remember when i graduated everybody's scholarship was
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announced you knew that you know you were going here you were going there you still have a
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a Victorian do you even allow that there's a valedictorian do we have this anymore when my
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kids graduated yes I'm not sure at this point but this is a you know a few years now I would imagine
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that we're getting back to it because one thing that I think is going to become very important
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to Canadians is seeing that we are educated properly we've all once it starts to become
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part of the regular vernacular that we are stagnating with our education I think that
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we're going to snap back into place with it and something's going to change equity is going to be
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part of the equation, but not as important. So let's say we're going to, we're going to stick
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with the statistic now. We've done our own research. We've all come up with our different
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opinions on this. And let's say we are number one in terms of population from what our statistics
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are all saying. How do we keep that? Well, I think that we're number one based on a long glide
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after a huge amount of hard work to create an amazing education system. It's now starting to
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fail um but it's left us in the top 10 for the moment i don't think that we're going to be there
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much longer if we don't change something quickly roger what do you think you make a really good
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point i think we've done quite well and kudos to all the teachers out there listening oh yeah
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any teacher educators watching if ever there's a noble profession uh teaching is certainly one of
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them um and we've got oh my god you'll do anything to get a b plus won't you
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sorry i was always the guy leaving apples for the teachers right um but i think with anything um
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there are extreme pressures internationally uh from other countries that are competing for this
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top spot like singapore like finland um i'm sure the u.s is chomping at the bit to work its way
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back up that ladder but a lot of changes in our society um i think trickle down into how whom we
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educate and how we educate those people yeah and um i think funding is a big thing um trickles down
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from the federal level to the provincial level so i think as long as we keep our focus on education
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I think we have a chance of staying in that top 10.
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But we seem to be sliding out of these top 10 scales,
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of what it is to live in a quote-unquote good country.
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This is not the only scale that we're sliding down at the moment.
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where we stand it with our education globally now we're starting to see cracks in the armor there
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our health care uh dropping off of the top 10 well the block of ice that is canada is melting
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and we're watching it well okay so now here's the other thing this leads to another problem
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in the future that we're not discussing yet but we will and that is brain drain if we don't have
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the right kind of educated people here in this country we're going to keep bringing people in
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that are not homegrown. That means we've not created a fertile environment for them to grow
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with an education that leads the best to stay here in Canada. You know, we can have great jobs
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for them, but we need the people to fill those jobs. And if we want to expand into other markets,
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into other industries, we need a wide breadth of really well-educated people to do it.
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that maybe will rattle us back into shape but here's the thing we're now noticing a decline
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in our education as we sit here we say yes we're in the top 10 but none of us are excited we're
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proud we're proud that we built that system but i'm happy that we've held it yeah we're all wide
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awake to the idea that it's in decline at the moment alongside many things we've let things go
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in this country for a long time on decline until it became an emergency scenario i think the time
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to deal with this is almost past the time we should have been dealing with it and we really
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do need to put a focus on it now well i i have a biased opinion on this and i i can't not be just
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because i you know we have a phd and so of course i think we need to implement the christian becca
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book system into the public school system um take out the science section because the science
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section isn't really great obviously it's based in christianity um put that public the public
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school science back into it and i think we just fixed everything really why is that take anybody
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watching take a look at the becca book system it is it's original times tables it is things like
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you'll remember every word in the webster's dictionary that isn't a noun every adverb every
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verb you'll go through tables like this it sticks in your head you i'll do the shortest one i
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possibly can and as our was we're being being been have has had who does did shall would should
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would make my must can't could these things are stuck in my head from a little kid i never at a
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loss for words so interesting me just previous and my sister my brother uh people that i know
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that i grew up with that were all under this becca book system all seem to be stable in terms of
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education they can pick up a book they can read it have no problems they can retain that information
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Like these little teeny tiny things that are good, you know,
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foundations for your everyday life are built really well
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It's not the only one out there, but I'm biased towards it because I was raised.
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I think that's a tendency for people who have finished being educated
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But I also think it's time for us to look at what countries like Singapore, Korea, South Korea, and all of these various countries are doing that make a difference to education.
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And then maybe start to replicate that or apply that here.
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Or just start whipping the kids again, like I said earlier on the episode.
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You know, even just the appreciation of the written word through spelling and proper grammar.
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I think that's kind of gone by the wayside, and there are probably some reasons why it has, like spellcheck and AI, I'm sure.
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But you can get information now so much easier than you could before.
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Growing up, we had, you know, a collection of encyclopedias.
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That's right, we bought them at the grocery stores.
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So that's where I got educated by a grocery store.
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the rich kids in my neighborhood ordered them online and got uh britannica encyclopedia
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britannica yes i kind of came from a caveman we had them show up at our house already paid for
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by my mom my dad's like oh nice this would be good kindling you know what i'm going to show
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you guys something we have all the technology in the world here to take a look at the globe
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at any time when we're following the news i'm going to show you the computer we're using talk
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amongst yourselves anyway speaking of educating yourself um one of the things that i tell people
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all the time is that we're so blessed to be in the world right now currently because it doesn't
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matter what you want to be you'll never get a real degree that you can print off but you can
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become anything if you have the patience and the actual understanding i could i could give you
00:25:00.540
surgery right now if it was my passion i might not survive i'm not going to have any degrees i'm not
00:25:05.640
going to make any money but i could do it if i wanted to what did you bring us here this is our
00:25:11.260
fancy computer for looking up stuff around the globe it's a book look at that that's an actual
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atlas and this this one uh this is a student atlas our partner paul stole it from school when he was
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a little boy i think and hung on to it yeah we use this a lot because we're in the habit of
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understanding how to look through an atlas and find a place if i handed this to uh let's say
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grade six and said okay find me africa and uh and and then drill down from there to south africa
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20 minutes later they still be flipping through the book i think is that africa nope that's canada
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bud yeah nice try though it's a pretty close pretty big place uh so you know nothing that's
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still part of our life here i think that our generation tends to grab for a book because
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me and the teacher looked at me and they're like
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Well, for us, we'd have to have a really long extension cord.
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But having a phone in the school was like, no, no, you can't.
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You can't be communicating while you're in class.
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Now there's rules that say the kids have to be able to have their phones,
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which is, I don't know, there's got to be logic behind that.
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This gets back to the blue ribbon participation.
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If your parents are trying to get a hold of you, the PA system will tell you.
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Not everybody has a challenge that makes it impossible for them to take a note.
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Well, Roger, would you want to leave us with the last thought
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on what you think about the state of public education inside of Canada?
00:27:31.440
No, just taking this from a pro-Canada perspective,
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I'm sure that accounts for children and adults.
00:27:50.480
We have a strong equity system like we talked about before.
00:27:57.120
and um yeah we're actually beating most western nations like the u.s and the uk so i think that
00:28:04.820
bodes very well for canada something uh for which we should be very proud and uh i'm actually proud
00:28:11.880
after reading these stats i thought would be much worse because like we were talking earlier a lot
00:28:16.360
of things in in canada are on a massive decline but to see that we're still in the top 10 makes
00:28:21.780
me feel a little good a little bit better all right roger your turn brady oh i just think we
00:28:28.680
should whip the kids no okay i'll tell you what roger i'll take the i'll take thank you i'll take
00:28:33.880
what you said yes and i absorb it and i will tell you what i think of it are you crazy scores in
00:28:42.260
math reading and science have dropped since 2018 an increase in low performing students across all
00:28:47.820
subjects math is in decline especially flagged as a concern and canada uh overall has i might
00:28:55.000
repeat 48 of canadian adults have low literacy skills and as i read this i notice i might be
00:29:01.200
one of them having said that yeah it's good that we can be proud but we got to stop being proud
00:29:07.440
and get back to work and become number one again or among the educated in this world that are going
00:29:13.880
make a difference to this world at this moment this makes us all qualified to go to university
00:29:20.200
and then come out and struggle looking for a job just like anybody else but it doesn't take us
00:29:26.600
around the world as leaders uh we are not a force in education anymore we did a good job when we
00:29:32.680
were small we're getting bigger we need to look at the future in education and yes i'm proud to
00:29:37.640
be canadian am i proud of our education system and our educators absolutely are they in trouble
00:29:43.080
are we in trouble absolutely looks like it looks like you might be right yeah so let's put a cap
00:29:48.460
on this right now sorry roger got really upset there don't worry i'll get a detention but having
00:29:53.940
said that i'll see it's important that we are proud but we need to keep an eye on this thing
00:29:59.320
yeah all right that's just my uneducated opinion and anybody who's watched knows that that's true
00:30:04.700
uh roger tumenieri brady wetham i'm mike wickson uh thanks for joining us tplmedia.ca this was a
00:30:11.560
lighter conversation on a heavier topic. But we go deep on many, many topics down the rabbit hole
00:30:17.940
in some cases. And we hope that you'll join us for that. You can also download the app
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00:30:32.240
Patriotic means looking out for each other and fixing things together. True patriotism is being
00:30:39.040
in the country you love surrounded by people you love and great weather being a patriot is being
00:30:43.760
a part of your community and caring for it it doesn't matter who you are or where you're from
00:30:48.160
patriotism is the one thing we all share it's okay to be critical of government and still be a
00:30:54.400
patriot it's gratitude to your country of course i'm a patriot i'm canadian it's my home well