True Patriot Love

00:00:00.000 Today I have Eric Coverdale from Gorkon Industries with me and I just wanted to really say hello

00:00:16.580 and welcome you. We're going to talk a little bit about solar energy and you know delve into

00:00:22.960 some of the history in Canada and also talk a little bit about the politics. I think it'd be

00:00:29.360 really interesting. So you know last night I was doing my fact checking before the podcast and I

00:00:38.840 was shocked to learn that renewables including solar had record level of revenues and production

00:00:47.060 last year in Canada. So you know I remember you know I was trying to think back what do I know

00:00:53.640 about renewable energy and solar. Well I was trying to think back when Premier Ford got in in Ontario

00:00:58.640 because we are in Ontario and we had this cancellation of contracts and you know all of a sudden you know

00:01:06.700 everyone who had solar farms and windmill farms you know seemed to be out of business and and those

00:01:14.040 deals were criticized and so that kind of you know were cancelled and you had the NDP and you're doing

00:01:21.200 reports you had the Liberal government supporting it. So it kind of was that roller coaster you know as

00:01:27.820 you call it the solar coaster. Yeah so you know we went through that and then now you know I didn't even

00:01:35.060 know that in 2025 the same government is actually reintroducing solar programs and wind renewable energy

00:01:47.460 programs. So why don't you take us through a little bit of that and kind of that roller coaster and and some of the why

00:01:53.780 and the rationale across Canada of what's going on in the solar work? Sure yeah so energy you know as we

00:02:00.720 chatted before you know we really started rolling here is extremely politicized I think because there's

00:02:06.440 just so much money involved in it right you end up with this kind of you know right left kind of argument

00:02:13.360 over the best way forward with it and yeah whoever's in power kind of wants to rebrand it as their own

00:02:20.180 success story. So a lot of flip-flopping happens you know whoever may be in power you know there's

00:02:26.700 always kind of something that's not going perfectly with rollout of energy projects so it's really easy

00:02:31.440 to yeah for someone to attack their political opponents right happens every time doesn't matter

00:02:37.140 regardless of political stripe so that is kind of you know how it's always going to be I think

00:02:43.100 and but the overall story is you know renewables are you know always going to be here they make

00:02:49.500 economic sense you might hear you know stories from some people that they're overly subsidized

00:02:54.640 but oil gas everything gets some sort of subsidy so it's really not a level playing field and it's

00:03:01.600 really a very complex thing to get involved into. So yeah you know overall solar is getting cheaper

00:03:10.160 from a technology standpoint so that's why I got into solar I you know realized that this was

00:03:16.480 you know basically a remake of of society really is what it boils down to right you know our ancestors

00:03:23.700 figured out how to make everything run on oil and gas and that was not sustainable so now we're having

00:03:29.500 to go back and and redo a lot of things with renewable energies. Yeah yeah so who out of curiosity

00:03:37.280 and I was trying to figure this out last night and you probably know this better than I do

00:03:40.620 who in Canada as a province does it really well like who is kind of the who is everyone following as

00:03:47.380 the preeminent solar guru and as far as provincial uh projects uh well I think Alberta um really will

00:03:56.540 will shine in the future um you know they're they're not immune to the whole political you know back

00:04:02.700 and forth that everywhere else has had but um they have the biggest opportunity because they have a

00:04:08.620 lot of um fossil fuel generation right now right so they're the only place in Canada I believe that

00:04:14.360 still uses coal plants for electricity generation so just a big opportunity to take that offline

00:04:20.300 to reduce their carbon emissions and ultimately lower their electricity bills too because uh you know

00:04:27.180 it's uh you know a little bit more money up front to build these renewable plants but uh you know then

00:04:33.020 you get free solar power after that right the input costs from the sun shining you don't have to mine the

00:04:38.860 coal you don't have to you know mine uranium or any of these things so um yeah the overall levelized cost

00:04:45.820 of energy as we say in the industry so like if you consider you know not just the price of producing power

00:04:52.640 but there's you know the price of environmental cleanups and uh and whatnot everything factored

00:04:57.920 in levelized cost of energy of solar is becoming cheaper than anything else available really oh yeah

00:05:05.520 yeah okay um so Alberta Alberta's kind of the leader because they need to do it because they're still

00:05:11.920 using coal right again right um so they're gonna probably uh transition uh and they have the listen

00:05:20.400 they have the they have the land and they have uh the sun wait we all have the sun but quite frankly

00:05:25.920 they get more daylight isn't that am i wrong on that one yeah that's actually true as well they

00:05:30.640 have the best solar resource right so just because where they are like behind the mountains yeah i guess

00:05:36.480 you know the mountains keep a lot of those clouds away so they they're just a very sunny place in

00:05:40.640 Canada yeah yeah yeah when i was out in Calgary they were telling me that they're trying to get me to

00:05:45.040 move there and they were telling me we get the most daylight of anyone they were very proud of it the

00:05:50.160 you know the people i was uh traveling with at the time and i was like wow that's pretty cool i

00:05:55.200 didn't know that so so solar solar in Alberta which is kind of weird because if you think about it you

00:06:00.080 think about oil and gas in Alberta and now you're talking you know solar and renewable and then um

00:06:06.960 you know you jump into it and then what about us in Ontario sort of we've kind of gone full circle we

00:06:12.800 basically loved it and then we hated it and then we now we love it again so where are we at now here

00:06:19.760 i think it's just coming back online now so um Doug Ford has been supporting the industry he's uh you

00:06:26.720 know been making some moves to indicate that this is the case um quietly i've been watching legislators

00:06:32.640 put together something that looks like the beginnings of virtual net metering which will be huge for the

00:06:37.440 industry because that means we'll be able to build a solar generating station um not actually at the place

00:06:44.560 where the power gets used with net metering um oh so okay trying to explain this uh in a way that

00:06:53.520 the layman can understand so net metering is when you can generate your own power and run your meter

00:06:59.280 backwards when you're not using as much as you generate yes um and normally this happens on the

00:07:05.360 same facility so you got to put rooftop solar panels maybe on a warehouse where you're using the power

00:07:11.280 right right um but virtual net metering means that you can put that solar panel somewhere else and um

00:07:19.120 you know basically by accounting uh you can say oh i generated this much power um so that can come

00:07:25.520 off my hydro bill on this other facility over here so it just opens up uh more opportunities for doing

00:07:31.360 these projects especially in urban areas where deployment of solar panels is more challenging yeah and

00:07:36.960 that was the issue wasn't it at one point i know that they've overcome a lot of that now it's it really

00:07:42.000 was the production the oversupply of energy through the whole grid right like that was the i think that

00:07:49.680 was the argument way back when why to cancel the program right because everyone was saying you know

00:07:54.560 we've we have we put this program into play for renewables but we already have so much energy online

00:08:00.880 what do we do with it all so why are we doing it right and is is that true or is that is that false

00:08:06.000 or is is are we are we still in that situation yeah well i mean our power needs are you know up and

00:08:15.520 down a little bit too right not just the policies so it is kind of true that we've needed less energy

00:08:20.640 because there was a lot of de-industrialization happening um you know in the early 2000s let's say in

00:08:26.240 that era yeah um and also switching over to more energy efficient appliances and lighting that

00:08:32.320 actually did reduce power uh requirements of the province quite a bit um but that's all being undone

00:08:38.880 we've we've already made all those efficiency gains and we're continuing to grow the population and now

00:08:43.920 even re-industrialization is causing a need for more power um and evs is a big one too right if

00:08:50.240 everyone's plugging in their electric vehicle um suddenly we need a lot more electricity so um yeah we

00:08:56.160 we're uh we're out of that whole we don't need so much power now and now we really need to

00:09:01.520 aggressively start uh building more generation and also more uh more infrastructure for distribution

00:09:08.000 um yeah we've been lagging an investment for quite a long time there as well um i'm not a utility guy i i

00:09:15.600 am not the the biggest expert on the ways that this is happening but um it's kind of common knowledge

00:09:21.200 that uh this is the truth right now yeah yeah it's wild the way the pendulum swings you know

00:09:26.560 i remember though you know we have too much energy and now quite frankly with data centers ev cars

00:09:31.840 everything else you know uh i think we're uh we're looking in this province a nuclear investment of

00:09:39.280 about 21 billion dollars over the next five years you know just on nuclear to kind of catch up with what's

00:09:46.640 going to happen and try to stay kind of ahead of that curve solar you know again i've learned so

00:09:52.400 much in the last you know a little while take me take me through kind of the uses of solar so the

00:09:59.200 residential projects commercial projects because you know last night i was digging into it too and

00:10:04.240 i'm like i build some homes like i'd like to do that kind of as my hobby right so and i've enjoyed it

00:10:12.720 but i don't use anything with respect to the solar you know technology in those homes right now um are

00:10:19.760 you seeing more of it is there people doing it like where where are you seeing it on grid and where

00:10:24.640 are you seeing people doing it yeah so um net metering on homes is a thing anyone can apply right

00:10:31.680 now in this province to um to do solar on their home and um there is one caveat that uh the industries

00:10:38.560 i'm very happy about which is that it's not net metering so what i described before with the

00:10:43.200 virtual net metering yeah really on commercial projects is what i was uh getting to there um

00:10:48.640 because you would never want to bother with that on a residential scale um what they want to do for

00:10:54.320 residential is uh load displacement only so that means you can't run your meter backwards that means

00:10:59.440 you can only generate power and use it in that instant real time yeah um and i think the reason they

00:11:06.160 don't want to do net metering anymore is because basically um you're getting paid for the retail

00:11:12.080 price of power if you're the solar generator um but you kind of freely load on the on the electricity

00:11:18.400 network because uh you know they're still having to um you know supply you power when uh when you need

00:11:25.440 it yes so uh yeah just the the you know there is a valid argument to be made that uh perhaps you know

00:11:32.480 the true value of power that you're generating is uh is a little bit exaggerated right because if you

00:11:38.320 had like you know solar and a battery together that's going to cost a lot more than just solar

00:11:43.200 yeah so um uh yeah that's kind of uh where the industry is right now um this is kind of a ontario

00:11:52.400 unique thing i've never seen anywhere else try to say that you can't do net metering it's only

00:11:57.680 low displacement um but it could very well catch on because uh utilities are always pushing back

00:12:03.520 right um there is a valid case to be said if if solar becomes you know 50 plus of generation um

00:12:11.760 yeah there's going to be a need for a lot more infrastructure to store that extra energy when uh

00:12:17.600 when when it's we've got an excess production and then re-dispatch it back out yeah when when we do

00:12:23.360 need the power so that's actually you know arguably even more money to build that out than it is to

00:12:28.560 build the solar projects to begin with so it's uh it's a big deal and who who take like i know your

00:12:35.040 company you're you know consulting and developing projects who would be doing that like you know

00:12:40.560 that's my question last night i was thinking okay is it a government entity or is it private is it like

00:12:46.400 take me through what that would look like and what does it look like in other provinces

00:12:49.520 the different structures yeah so um here we have the ieso the independent electricity system operator

00:12:57.280 and um and there's a number of these in north america and they are responsible for the overall

00:13:02.880 planning and reliability of the electricity system so from very top down um they make these decisions on

00:13:11.360 how they want to manage their networks and um and they are responsible for procuring energy

00:13:18.320 um yeah and uh you know technically they're supposed to be the real authority on it but

00:13:24.640 they do take directives from the ministry of energy too so that is the part where it kind of gets murky

00:13:30.160 and why you kind of see these solar programs come and go is because uh the provincial government um they

00:13:36.480 decide you know sometimes they may want to stimulate the economy so then they do a bunch of green energy

00:13:41.440 projects right at that time instead of actually when the ieso needs the power so um yeah that kind

00:13:48.320 of happens too and who is that a private body or is that a public body oh that would be uh a crown

00:13:55.120 corporation the ies yes yes oh yeah so yes yeah okay so and each province has their own

00:14:02.320 yeah yeah i'm not sure if it's actually each in every province um i think they're like saskatchewan

00:14:10.240 and manitoba might share one or something like that yeah um i know in the u.s there's uh there's

00:14:16.080 definitely not so many a lot of states share their system operators but um for ontario it's uh the ieso

00:14:23.840 it used to be called the ontario power authority i remember yeah i remember is there you know and the

00:14:29.600 thing that jumped to mind because you know i'm i'm kind of taking you through it thank you because

00:14:34.320 you're the expert and i'm learning and as i'm reading about it you know i'm thinking to myself

00:14:39.120 is this the most efficient way of doing this like so i'm kind of looking at i'm saying okay solar power

00:14:44.560 i get it i like the idea you know it makes sense to me you know it does the sun and everything going on

00:14:50.560 um is it structure of having government bodies actually oversee it because you have all the nuances

00:14:57.920 like you said you know you have ups and downs based on economy based on politics based on who lobbies

00:15:04.080 the hardest you know are there countries and the thing that came to mind are there countries that are

00:15:09.520 doing it better under different structures than us and is there something we can learn from them

00:15:15.520 like if you had to look at the world and say okay you know that's a model that's really cool

00:15:20.400 and anyone jump to mind well um china is definitely leading in deployment of energy projects all kinds

00:15:29.360 of energy projects um so you know their approach is uh is getting it done for sure um i think uh you

00:15:37.920 know there's nowhere with you know that much growth that's demanding that much energy so um you know it's

00:15:44.480 kind of happening out of necessity and uh um yeah who knows it gets kind of complicated uh just in our

00:15:51.600 own turf right without trying to compare apples to oranges to other countries but um uh china is

00:15:57.920 definitely uh doing a good job in deploying energy projects um there's no argument that uh that they're

00:16:03.200 the leader in in uh renewable deployment although i think the us was also um deploying at a very rapid pace

00:16:10.240 i think they were maybe neck and neck for a couple years there um for solar deployment but overall um

00:16:17.680 yeah nothing really compares to what china's doing not not saying that they're doing it in a good way i 0.99

00:16:22.720 think they could be um fouling things up in a lot of different ways too that you don't hear about but if

00:16:27.840 you just look at how much is getting deployed um yeah they're doing a lot technology is it their

00:16:33.280 technology is it their innovation or is it just the fact that they've committed

00:16:38.000 uh yeah i think it's really the demand is there so they need to meet that demand and uh there's a

00:16:45.200 political will to uh to grow the country and energy projects aren't vilified there it's uh you know

00:16:50.880 everyone wants to see these happen right it's not like canada where there's always this uh nimbyism

00:16:55.680 not in my backyard um so they don't have to deal with that um so it's a combination of all these

00:17:01.920 factors coming together that is still exists right i think people still don't want the panels and

00:17:07.440 don't they're still against it are they oh yeah yeah yeah very much so a lot of uh energy projects

00:17:13.440 get this even small scale ones um you know a lot of folks would uh be complaining about uh you know

00:17:19.920 the way it affects their views um it seems like for energy projects uh these things get a lot of

00:17:26.480 consideration more so than let's say real estate developers um i'm not sure why that is um maybe it's not

00:17:34.000 even true i'm not in real estate so i don't know what they have to go through to get their projects

00:17:38.160 done but uh oh no yeah i know wind wind turbines like good luck right like everyone argues about a

00:17:43.920 wind turbine you throw one up and everyone's upset uh solar panels yeah you know you know in where you

00:17:50.720 know in ontario i'm trying to think of where i've seen a very large solar field uh recently probably in

00:17:56.800 the west right yeah if you get outside of toronto a little bit you start to see more of them um yeah

00:18:03.680 like out by sarnia there was a really big one that just got built so when i'm thinking about yeah um

00:18:09.200 haldeman county had a really big one that went in i want to say maybe six seven years ago now um they

00:18:16.400 replaced a coal-fired generating plant there in anticoke it used to be the world's dirtiest generating

00:18:21.680 station i think there was a consortium of uh international uh uh countries or

00:18:28.720 ngos or i'm not sure who did it but yeah they were all uh up in arms over that because

00:18:33.840 you know it was so bad like and and this pollution was floating right like right over toronto right

00:18:38.080 because they're right upwind of us oh yeah um but like even in germany like they were their air

00:18:43.120 quality was being affected by that place so really it was really dirty oh wow yeah it's like it's like

00:18:48.560 our wildfires but yeah yeah yeah now our wildfires have replaced that so yeah canada's uh stepping

00:18:56.640 back up again on that front yeah unfortunately the uh so blue sky with me for a minute so you know i

00:19:02.320 want to get you you know when you wake up in the morning you say okay you know i'm gonna go consult

00:19:06.880 on a solar project where do you see it going and give me i was trying to figure that out too i'm thinking

00:19:12.000 okay we've kicked around so you so solar's been give me kind of the origin year where it's

00:19:18.320 solar really hit the mainstream yeah well i mean speaking from an ontario perspective um

00:19:25.840 centered perspective uh 2009 is when that uh green energy act happened in the province

00:19:32.000 um it was kind of a economic stimulus uh program as much as it was energy procurement program and um

00:19:39.280 they wanted to create a market to be world leaders in renewable energy i remember um in some

00:19:45.040 senses they succeeded although sustained policy would have been a lot better than what we ended up

00:19:51.360 having um but yeah there was a lot of projects being built it was very straightforward on how to

00:19:58.080 build the project and get a a firm contract for a 20-year period in this case to sell the power so

00:20:05.440 anyone investing felt reasonably uh confident in doing so it was very de-risked

00:20:11.280 oh yeah um it was definitely more lucrative than it needed to be um they were paying quite high

00:20:17.920 premiums um at the time it felt that was necessary to uh to really get have uptake yeah uh because it

00:20:25.680 was unproven technology and still people felt they were doing a risk to build these projects but um

00:20:31.440 those risks were uh were very overblown and a lot of people that got in early did very well with that

00:20:37.200 um i remember yeah it's funny i remember guys calling me and saying you got to come with me and

00:20:42.400 that we jump in the car and we go out to farms all across ontario and they they'd show me these

00:20:47.360 you know plans to do solar fields and you know what i mean in that you know you got to invest right

00:20:53.760 so there was a lot of discussion back then which you know which a lot of it came to fruition you know

00:20:58.560 which uh right after that it was the next big craze was cannabis you know everyone was calling me get in

00:21:04.960 my car let's go and then you'd have solar field cannabis field you know your cannabis warehousing

00:21:10.720 and yeah yeah it was interesting in the time sort of how those projects came but similar kind of

00:21:17.280 bouncy road right well i don't know if uh you could compare solar to cannabis with being fair to the

00:21:23.920 solar industry cannabis uh that was uh yeah a really crazy thing um definitely a lot of people

00:21:31.520 i think overestimated the demand yeah yeah totally speculative right yeah just grow it and they will

00:21:39.040 come whereas solar you know just i don't think it got its fair shake i think it just you know it got

00:21:44.400 off the ground and then it got canceled really right it got uh what 10 years in got a clean decade

00:21:51.280 how long did it run i've yeah something like that 2009 to 2008 i want to say eight or nine years it really

00:21:57.200 went yeah um yeah i mean you know there's no one stopping you from building a solar project right

00:22:03.680 now but um uh you know with all other energy forms being subsidized um there's not much of a business

00:22:10.880 case for it right if you go places like germany they've um got high levels of solar uptake because

00:22:18.560 they don't subsidize other industries so you end up with a higher price for power so these projects have

00:22:25.760 you know a good business case without any subsidy because no energy is subsidized this is what elon

00:22:30.400 musk was really pushing for in the us he wanted to have no subsidies for any energy because all you

00:22:36.640 do when you do that is you shift the price of power from the ratepayer to the taxpayer yes right and

00:22:43.200 who wants to pay high taxes right like i'd rather just paid on be up front paid on my power bill yeah

00:22:49.200 exactly usage yeah so it's a usage tax really is what he was buying for right it was an income tax

00:22:55.840 yeah well it's a subsidy is what elon wanted to do away with and um what's your thoughts on that

00:23:02.880 i i think it would overall be good i think there's a bit of short-term pain when you do something like

00:23:07.280 that because a lot of people have been depending on low costs of electricity um and they'll start to

00:23:13.040 see those prices go up but uh you know we're in a crisis of being overtaxed right now too so it's like

00:23:19.200 there's no free launch right like do you want to pay it on your tax bill or on your power bill but

00:23:24.080 but it sure takes that skew away from what type of power you're going to use to your point because

00:23:29.600 in order to get you know by subsidizing one you end up subsidizing all and it's funny solar took a

00:23:35.600 real big knock for being fully subsidized i think that pro you know the probably the ontario program

00:23:41.600 uh and i only see it from this perspective because i live here right but you know we kind of said oh

00:23:47.760 you know solar that was a bad deal for the taxpayer you know we paid everyone too much we made a bunch

00:23:52.320 of guys rich thank god it's done and then we all walked away right whereas you know probably a bad shake

00:23:58.640 for solar at the time because it wasn't solar it was just maybe the math that they did that was off to

00:24:03.520 your point is to um and maybe not the greatest contract right and they could have done a better

00:24:09.840 uh way of contracting for those guys but the right idea to get it started i think just wasn't

00:24:15.840 executed great and uh it took a knock but i'm glad it's back but so blue sky so now we're moving forward

00:24:24.000 where do you see solar going give me give me kind of that decade two decade look ahead where you see

00:24:29.680 solar kind of like where am i going to be looking at solar in 10 years well yeah solar is not going

00:24:37.600 anywhere it's going to be here the question is um how much is there going to be and what's the energy

00:24:43.280 mix going to be because um uh solar um you know as a lion's share of of all of our energy it's gone

00:24:50.640 from like less than one percent to something much more meaningful very quickly it's like eight or

00:24:55.520 something now yeah yeah i'm not even sure what that uh percentage may be on a pie chart but yeah it's

00:25:01.120 getting up there and um yeah it's going to take uh you know policy like right now in ontario they're

00:25:07.840 wanting to build a lot more nuclear plants um so that's going to shrink the share of solar if if they

00:25:13.680 stick with that policy um i would like to see them you know build more solar and batteries because uh

00:25:21.040 i just think it's safer and i think it's actually cheaper to do that um yeah when you consider the whole

00:25:28.000 life cycle cost of nuclear because there's all kinds of uh costs you know once these projects

00:25:33.120 are decommissioned right that don't really get baked into the level of cost of energy right

00:25:37.680 and who pays for that right usually taxpayers or you know environmental degradation other all kinds of

00:25:43.040 things um externalized costs we call them in the industry um so that's the one thing about solar

00:25:49.200 why i think people think it's expensive because it's very transparent about what the real cost is

00:25:53.440 right and you don't end up with all these other um hidden back-end costs right exactly yeah exactly

00:25:59.760 so you know it's interesting so in in 10 years from now so say we you know if if we can get solar

00:26:05.840 online uh what type of projects so am i looking at am i looking when you say batteries give me a feel

00:26:12.080 for what type of solar batteries we'd be looking at yeah so just big um energy storage facilities right

00:26:18.320 like tesla energy is a big part of uh elon's company right now and uh it's less talked about

00:26:24.400 because it's kind of boring in comparison to the robots and other things but um yeah uh they're

00:26:30.560 going to be very busy deploying basically big batteries on the grid that can charge when there's

00:26:35.840 more power than we need and discharge um when we need the energy back so um these storage projects

00:26:43.120 they don't need to be together with a solar project we can you know have transmission lines between

00:26:48.080 them right but um basically these uh projects are going to be needed to allow for the adoption of more

00:26:54.080 renewables so um a lot more storage projects coming online with renewables together um that's definitely

00:27:01.600 going to happen um it's just the proportion of how much of that are we going to have versus nuclear or

00:27:08.640 natural gas or other things right that's going to be up to politicians to decide yeah well it looks

00:27:13.680 like here we made our we kind of are committing into the nuclear field right like we we so far we've

00:27:19.120 kind of made a statement that we're going to go nuclear and and basically natural gas i don't know

00:27:25.440 honestly i don't know where that's going quite frankly uh those guys are they disappearing and what's

00:27:31.680 happening i have no idea they they're very quiet um and then solar to your point you know elon and the

00:27:37.520 stuff he's doing sort of in nevada and out in the us right now it's pretty cool do you see something

00:27:43.440 like that happening here um so like a big uh what he's doing in nevada like gigafactory so i think what

00:27:51.200 you're talking about is this gigafactory where they are building batteries um i think for both his

00:27:57.360 energy business and for the vehicles yeah so yeah these gigafactories um yeah they'll be popping up

00:28:03.520 everywhere right there's so much demand for it um it's hard to imagine that going away anytime soon

00:28:10.000 there was kind of a glut in the price of lithium um for the last couple of years um i think that's

00:28:16.720 just because you know like the cannabis industry or anything else we've been talking about right there

00:28:22.000 was you know everyone was over investing into production for a while and um and it's gonna kind

00:28:28.080 of go back the other way maybe there's under investment now i read just recently that uh they took a big

00:28:33.200 mine offline in china for lithium production because of the way prices are but they'll bring it

00:28:38.640 back when the market's there so this is just how these markets work right it's supply and demand they

00:28:44.080 need to balance each other it takes time for it to balance and aren't we so and that's canada you

00:28:49.600 know resource wise you know my understanding is we're totally set up for solar right as far as uh resources

00:28:56.960 to to create these plants and to create you know whether it be lithium or any of the other minerals

00:29:01.680 is that am i correct are we missing something that we need to yeah i think we've got pretty much

00:29:08.640 every kind of resource in this country right it's just uh what's the willingness to to develop those

00:29:13.920 resources and what about what about the you know you guys you know the reason you know we we came

00:29:20.480 across you for a number of reasons but one of the reasons was your expertise right so you know what is

00:29:26.320 the brain trust in canada right now for solar energy like are we are we you know is are people

00:29:32.000 leaving are they staying are they finding it a place they want to work like what what's happening

00:29:36.720 kind of in your industry for uh human resources because that's always as canada being the size of country

00:29:42.640 we are you know i have lots of conversations with people and they're really good ones but so they always

00:29:48.480 kind of lead down that path to you know but those people are leaving and going to the us or you know or they

00:29:54.960 came from china they're heading back or you know how are you finding in your industry right now for

00:30:00.560 people right now i think uh canada is an okay place to be for for solar definitely less hostile to solar

00:30:09.040 energy than than what they're experiencing in the us so trump is actually retroactively cancelling a lot

00:30:14.960 of renewable energy projects there yeah um so so that's not happening you know at least politically

00:30:21.600 there is a will to to maintain you know a strong solar industry here um yeah you know there's other

00:30:29.200 economic factors at play here and um you know are these uh is the industry supported act adequately

00:30:36.080 enough um i'm not really sure but uh yeah it's uh it's it's okay in canada right now overall um the

00:30:44.240 question is you know how are these projects being built right is it like a free market or is this like

00:30:49.040 you know brookfield renewable getting all the projects that's kind of you know what's questionable

00:30:54.640 about how things are being done yeah well that's always the case here right small country right so

00:30:59.120 that sometimes the power source gets consolidated to us first canada let's talk about that because you

00:31:05.120 know it's interesting you mentioned trump and i was going to get to that but let's jump into it for a

00:31:08.960 few minutes so he's going another direction obviously he's kind of made that statement you know solar

00:31:14.800 or renewables ah you know he wants to go kind of oil gas you know the other way so what's your

00:31:21.600 thought on sort of what he's doing and is there any opportunity for us out of that so is there uh

00:31:26.480 you know as they go one direction is there opportunity for us yeah i i think it's uh you

00:31:32.160 know renewables are the future and you know evs to a large extent of the future too um you know we

00:31:39.280 committed cripes we built those plants up in by windsor and london right we got to be our own

00:31:44.080 customer now right this is what they say so 20 what 60 billion or something yeah yeah and they're

00:31:50.240 built right so i mean it for sure is a good idea to to go to renewables right fossil fuels are just

00:31:56.880 not sustainable over the long term so you know this transition needs to happen what's maybe debatable

00:32:03.600 is how aggressively does this transition need to happen because it is a costly transition and in

00:32:10.080 canada for a lot of people it feels like they're too aggressively pursuing it so um i think that's

00:32:15.520 a very valid thing um well yeah we're still online i just heard the other day for 2035 for our ev

00:32:23.360 and uh car targets so they never that never disappeared right so that all sort of stayed in play

00:32:30.320 yeah i think it might even be 2030 actually oh is it oh yeah if i'm remembering correctly but uh

00:32:36.960 maybe there may be wishing for five it could be tiered it could be you know so many by 2030 and then

00:32:41.760 another you know down to zero by 2035 i can't remember which but um yeah the mandates are something

00:32:48.080 that uh the trump very much as a populist kind of guy i think that's how he garnered a lot of support

00:32:54.080 right nobody likes these mandates yes um they'd rather have the choice to get an electric car right so

00:33:00.000 you know when you're out shopping for an electric car if you think that ev is the best choice for

00:33:04.880 you and your family then you buy it that's kind of uh you know how most people like to make their

00:33:10.800 decisions right they like to be in control of their own lives and not have the government controlling

00:33:15.120 them so um yeah that's kind of what they're doing in the states right now versus canada it seems like

00:33:21.680 we're kind of complacent to be a little bit more controlled by the government yeah yeah we well again

00:33:27.840 yeah i think i agree with you i think smaller you know we we small ball here little smaller nation

00:33:33.280 of course a lot smaller so i think we we sometimes go there but i think you know with this solar

00:33:38.240 opportunity and even with the ev update there's a great opportunity um it's just how do we seize it

00:33:43.760 produce it and also keep it efficient enough to survive through it and that's the challenge right

00:33:48.720 now that we have um you know what can we be doing better on the solar field right now like so if we if

00:33:55.760 you had to kind of give us a recommendation for our country give us kind of the three to five points

00:34:01.680 that if you were say i said you know eric you know you're the prime minister tomorrow right what would

00:34:07.840 you do to the solar uh industry that would actually move it forward well that's definitely uh a complicated

00:34:16.880 answer right i'm you know definitely haven't got like three you know prioritize things to approach it

00:34:22.320 with but uh you know i you know there's a pretty strong um industry association the canadian solar

00:34:29.040 industries association um can react renewables actually it's wind and solar together so so they've

00:34:35.360 got some really good uh policy suggestions that they're always putting forward and um sometimes they

00:34:41.040 are adhered to and and sometimes not so who makes up this group um yeah they're they're uh like a

00:34:49.360 non-government organization and ngo oh yeah an industry association industry oh nice okay yeah

00:34:54.880 great yeah you guys are in it there's a bunch of other guys who who belongs like the yeah like any

00:35:01.920 you know solar company you know they may be a member and there's even like individual members

00:35:05.920 right um good who make it up and uh you know there's a small number of people who work there full

00:35:12.160 time um a lot of people kind of on boards you know volunteering that kind of thing to come up with

00:35:17.440 this policy yeah and anytime the government does something you know there's a lot of people in

00:35:22.320 industry they're always you know suggesting that there's something wrong with this policy needs to

00:35:26.880 change um so you know they're like the lobbyists i hate that i'll i'll use lobbyists from here 0.75

00:35:33.200 they're kind of the solar lobbyist group yeah they do lobby for the solar industry okay absolutely yeah

00:35:39.440 okay yeah we need it and then you know that so they create kind of the mandates that move it forward

00:35:44.320 so through the industry they collect and then they come up with kind of the plans to move it forward

00:35:50.000 so you know if what do you think their number one mandate would be right now for the government

00:35:57.440 yeah uh well adequate support for the industry you know with uh you know the proper subsidies and um

00:36:04.800 you know the proper you know things that prevent these projects from getting strangled in red tape

00:36:11.520 um so that happens a lot too there might be a project that looks feasible but then can never

00:36:17.440 happen because of some um connect connection issue right getting connection on the grid is a big problem

00:36:23.360 and and that problem is everywhere so that's not canada that's you know wherever in the world you go

00:36:29.040 um because you know obviously more important than the solar industry is power reliability right we all

00:36:34.000 want to be able to walk into a room and turn the lights on and not be like oh yeah what's up with this power

00:36:39.040 outage so um yeah energy reliability is here and ensuring that we've got the energy reliability for

00:36:46.880 economical prices for the power um these are kind of like priority one and two and then you know are

00:36:53.200 we getting clean sustainable power is never going to be more important than that so um you know with

00:36:59.520 respecting one and two um you know we want to have clean sustainable power too that's going to uh yeah you

00:37:07.760 know it's interesting you know when you talk about energy in canada i'm always kind of uh i'm torn a

00:37:13.920 little because i always wonder why we pay so much like we're so you know we're uh population wise we're

00:37:21.680 a small country land wise we're a huge country right second biggest land mass in the world to russia

00:37:27.600 right um we have resources out the wahoo but yet we still seem to pay kind of you know market rates for our

00:37:37.200 energy costs whatever it is right whether it's oil gas whether it's you know nuka whatever we do

00:37:42.880 we seem to charge this huge absorbent price to do it and i'm always wondering are we losing our

00:37:48.240 competitive advantage by like you know if we could drop down and actually produce things cheaper and

00:37:54.000 actually become a country that you could come here and do things cheaper would we not be getting the

00:37:58.960 advantage of that you know and and so you know when you bring up that it's like solar costs and and that

00:38:05.200 like is it a great opportunity for us to actually kind of reset the bar in canada to get our energy

00:38:10.800 costs at a decent level so we can actually attract more people to come here sure yeah like good energy

00:38:18.400 policy that works for for everybody is uh the best way to do that and you know here in ontario we've got

00:38:26.000 kind of average power prices actually it's really not that expensive here and if you go other places in

00:38:30.960 canada like in bc quebec they've got much cheaper than global averages for electricity so yeah um you

00:38:38.720 know the truth the truth is we do have cheap energy in canada so that's giving us a competitive advantage

00:38:44.240 um i think there's it could be managed better sure but same could be said of anywhere um yeah it's not

00:38:50.880 all bad you know things are still pretty good in canada and things are are going all right a lot of

00:38:56.320 fronts um yeah there's just always you know ways we can improve still well i know your reliability

00:39:02.800 you know your first one is power reliability you know i run a couple businesses in the gta right now

00:39:08.560 and i'm struggling with one on the east side right and so that's become a major thing to keep our

00:39:13.840 business running with you know power shortages power routages things like that so you know that's

00:39:19.280 become something that's become kind of paramount in that discussion of our business strategy

00:39:24.720 which it wasn't a few years ago right so which is very interesting that we're now having that kind of

00:39:29.360 conversation again which again you know brings me back to alternative sources of power which i think

00:39:35.440 is great that you're you know the industry is doing so well but can we keep growing it can we keep

00:39:41.280 advancing it because you know if i have to if i have to bring up more backup power generation to keep my

00:39:47.280 plant moving then that makes me start to think that the grid isn't as stable as i thought it was right

00:39:53.520 and i'm finding that now so it's something i didn't find you know before covet i was kind of

00:39:58.960 not thinking about it as much now i'm thinking about it more right and you know good for the guys

00:40:04.080 to do backup generation bad for the guys who have to get it and pay for it and keep it and maintain it

00:40:10.000 so you know i'm happy you know that solar is doing well i'm happy the industry is thriving and

00:40:17.200 uh you know i wanted to thank you for coming in today and having this discussion you know i'd like

00:40:23.280 to do one just before you go i'd like to do a session with you where uh maybe we just dissect

00:40:29.760 kind of you take us through a little of kind of solar and uh kind of the history of of how solar kind

00:40:38.640 of came to be and you know and the invention of it and how it works the the technical aspects of it

00:40:44.400 because you know before we started talking about you know solar and you know uh you know all the how

00:40:51.360 it was kind of developed and invented and i think you know that's kind of really good for canadians to

00:40:57.120 understand and uh hopefully we get some time to do that yeah sure yeah yeah i'd love to to talk

00:41:03.920 about that sometime thanks eric and look forward to talking to you again thank you for having me

The Truth About Solar Energy in Canada

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