True Patriot Love


Why Calgary Matters Right Now — On Location in Calgary


Episode Stats


Harmful content

Misogyny

8

sentences flagged

Hate speech

6

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Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Jovan Mangat is a long-time advocate for separation from Canada and has been involved in the movement since the early 1980s. In this episode, he talks about the origins of the movement and how it came to life.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Today we're going to check in with one of the OG thinkers on the topic of separation.
00:00:10.680 Somebody who put their efforts in early days and really can give us sort of a backgrounder, I think.
00:00:17.760 Because you and I keep asking, where did this come from?
00:00:20.600 How is it coming on so quick and so hard, so fast right now?
00:00:24.640 Right, and this isn't a new thing, so we're going to talk about that today.
00:00:28.700 But it's been something that's been talked about and talked about here in Alberta and Quebec for years.
00:00:35.520 And even when I was a kid, I remember the conversations happening.
00:00:39.280 And now it's coming to fruition for a number of reasons.
00:00:43.560 So, yeah.
00:00:44.440 Yeah, please, joining us, Jovan Mangat, who was one of the original people.
00:00:50.760 I guess it must have been a group of you think tanking this through a number of years.
00:00:56.020 But you've been very active on this front.
00:00:58.700 Thanks for joining us, by the way.
00:01:00.880 My pleasure, Paul and Mike.
00:01:02.980 It's wonderful to be here and really talking about the, I would say, the independence movement, not the separation.
00:01:10.200 But we call it independence because that's what we're really after is independence from the federal government,
00:01:16.880 from the liberal damaging policies that are always geared towards Alberta.
00:01:21.920 So, you know, I've been a long-time independence supporter, probably, I think, since the early 80s.
00:01:29.840 I didn't get involved until the first time I ran in elections was in 2012 for the Wild Rose Party, which Daniel Smith was a leader.
00:01:39.720 That's right.
00:01:40.320 And very smart lady. 0.99
00:01:42.100 I loved working for her.
00:01:44.520 And, you know, we finished well behind the winners.
00:01:48.320 And then I ran again in 2015.
00:01:51.120 And Brian Jean, who is the Minister of Energy right now, currently, he was the leader.
00:01:56.460 And so the independence movement, I'll just, you know, if you'll let me enlighten you a little bit of how it all developed.
00:02:05.120 So we moved to Canada in 1970.
00:02:08.020 My dad immigrated here in 69 from Kenya, East Africa.
00:02:12.660 And, you know, I always wonder why did we leave such a beautiful tropical country to come to minus 40?
00:02:19.900 That's a good question.
00:02:21.040 That's a fair question.
00:02:22.620 And, well, you know what?
00:02:25.840 Opportunity, safety, tolerance, all of that was in Alberta.
00:02:30.620 And we never left Alberta because the opportunities always existed here.
00:02:34.620 And when I was in high school, really, in the mid-70s, the, I hope my age doesn't show when I say that.
00:02:43.260 Yeah, welcome to the club.
00:02:45.000 I can see that.
00:02:46.160 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:02:47.100 More than one club we belong to, huh?
00:02:48.980 All right.
00:02:49.300 And really, it started with the Western Canada Concept Party.
00:02:53.780 And they're talking about Western separation because Pierre Trudeau, who got into power in 1968.
00:02:59.000 And just let me remind listeners, since 1963, the Liberal Party has been in power except for two long-serving conservative prime ministers, Stephen Harper and Brian Mulroney.
00:03:12.380 Okay?
00:03:12.920 So the liberals are to be blamed for what's really happened in Canada over the last 60 years.
00:03:19.640 And it started with Pierre Trudeau when he got elected in 1968.
00:03:23.200 He really wished to centralize power in Ottawa, make it a central government.
00:03:28.440 Because that's the culture of, really, Quebec.
00:03:32.420 And confederation is not in that manner.
00:03:36.780 Confederation means we're a bunch of provinces tied together in agreements.
00:03:41.860 And the power was not supposed to be in Ottawa.
00:03:45.460 But the Liberal Party under Trudeau wanted to centralize it and gain as much power over provinces as possible.
00:03:54.740 And if you study these statistics, no country in the world has their central bureaucracy as much as Ottawa does.
00:04:03.800 Forty percent of federal bureaucracy is in Ottawa, not anywhere else in Canada.
00:04:09.040 So when he introduced official bilingualism in 71, it only gave power, really, a power to a very small minority.
00:04:18.700 And in my opinion, one of the most damaging policies Canada has is bilingualism. 0.99
00:04:24.760 Only 16 percent of Canadians are bilingual.
00:04:28.640 And outside Quebec, it's less than three percent.
00:04:31.180 We spent two billion dollars a year on official bilingualism in Montreal, where the French language wasn't spoken as much and it was really English.
00:04:41.800 Justin Trudeau came along and said, we need to spend more money.
00:04:44.940 Well, no, the free market is telling you English is the language.
00:04:48.300 So at that point, is that the first thorn in the paw?
00:04:51.720 For me, it is, yes.
00:04:53.020 And for the movement overall, does it all seem to coincide around that same era?
00:04:58.620 The movement is all, the movement is about, okay, we're contributing about 75 billion dollars in federal taxes and equalization payments to Ottawa.
00:05:11.660 We only get back 26 billion.
00:05:14.000 So we're contributing a net loss of 47 billion, 45 to 47, every single year.
00:05:22.160 That's the basis on which, growing up, I had always thought, okay, Alberta wants their own thing. 0.98
00:05:28.460 So when you do that for, you know, 60 years, 50, 60 years, there has to be an end result.
00:05:36.880 So when this separation, Western Canada separation, started in, you know, the mid-70s, you had Gordon Kessler getting elected in 1982 in the writing of Olds Desbury, which is just north of Calgary.
00:05:48.600 And then Brian Mulroney gets elected, and the movement kind of dies down a little bit because he says we need a Western diversification program, gives us a little bit of money.
00:05:59.540 But nothing really changes because after, was it eight years, nine years, the Conservatives get defeated.
00:06:05.220 John Gretchen comes in. 0.54
00:06:06.380 You know, the taxation is just insurmountable.
00:06:12.860 We get taxed to death.
00:06:15.660 I mean, currently, Canadians contribute 45 to 50 percent of their income to taxes, which include, you know, you include all taxes, property tax, liquor tax, smoking tax, airport tax, fuel tax.
00:06:32.100 We're just taxed to death.
00:06:34.000 So Albertans realize that we're getting so much, but what are we getting in return?
00:06:38.860 Really nothing.
00:06:39.400 We have no power.
00:06:40.520 Every time we elect the Conservatives in Alberta, we have no voice in Ottawa.
00:06:44.640 We get overruled by the Maritimes, Quebec, and Ontario.
00:06:48.000 So even the Conservatives, when they get into power, they can't do much for Western Canada because the power is in Eastern Canada.
00:06:58.300 And the Senate also.
00:07:00.600 Harper tried to fight for a Triple E Senate.
00:07:03.060 He couldn't do it because the Supreme Court ruled it's a constitutional matter.
00:07:07.020 You have to open up the Constitution.
00:07:08.360 Well, John Chrétien, in 1994, I believe, gave veto power to Quebec for any constitutional change, but yet they haven't signed on the Constitution.
00:07:18.980 Well, how did he give veto power to Quebec?
00:07:22.060 Because they changed a little bit of the law.
00:07:26.080 According to the Constitution, you're supposed to have seven of the ten provinces that comprise 50 percent of the population to change any wording in the Constitution.
00:07:36.860 But then John Chrétien introduced a Parliament Act saying that, okay, you need to have B.C., Ontario, Quebec, two of the three prairie provinces, and the Maritimes.
00:07:53.140 I think it was one province of the Maritimes that comprise 50 percent to have veto power for any constitutional changes.
00:08:01.080 Well, you could get all the other provinces agreeing, but if Quebec doesn't agree, it's vetoed.
00:08:06.860 That's not fair.
00:08:08.240 Okay.
00:08:08.740 So, again, we're mistreated.
00:08:10.740 So, bilingualism is one.
00:08:13.180 Here's another one.
00:08:14.660 Supply management.
00:08:16.200 Now, not too many Canadians know about supply management.
00:08:19.200 You ask them-
00:08:19.740 It's certainly showing up on our radar since COVID, right?
00:08:22.320 Yes.
00:08:22.660 So, supply management really introduced, it was introduced in the mid-60s, and the intent was that we need to safeguard the supply, and we need to safeguard people who are farmers in poultry, dairy, you know, those type of farming.
00:08:43.160 Well, what the end result is, Canadians pay 30 percent more for dairy and poultry, more than the Americans.
00:08:52.880 Well, now, any other province that needs to apply for a permit so they can produce more eggs or more milk, well, that's not going to happen because then it's all under control.
00:09:06.040 It's centralized.
00:09:06.620 Well, to me, that's socialism, and I can argue all day against socialism because, you know, being from Kenya, Africa, socialism has ruined Africa.
00:09:18.760 There's no open markets.
00:09:20.500 There are no investment.
00:09:21.240 So, the end result of supply management is to enrich farmers in Quebec and Ontario.
00:09:30.820 While the net worth of- let me just read this a little bit.
00:09:36.200 The net worth, I had it written down, is that the poultry farms have, if you just give me a minute, I think the poultry farms have about $4 million in net worth.
00:09:49.520 And then the dairy farmers, their net worth is about $5 million.
00:09:55.700 So, it's controlled, okay?
00:09:58.480 It's not an open market.
00:10:00.100 Well, my argument is, well, why don't we have supply management for cucumbers?
00:10:05.060 Why don't we have supply management for beef? 0.99
00:10:07.720 Why only dairy and poultry, okay?
00:10:12.180 So, here I have the numbers.
00:10:13.500 The dairy farmers' net worth is around $4.5 million, and the average poultry farmer net worth is around $6 million.
00:10:21.140 It's a very protective industry.
00:10:23.200 So, now, from Alberta's perspective in modern-day terms, you know, we talk about this quite regularly.
00:10:30.860 Yeah.
00:10:31.060 The federal government, oh, it's the most resource-rich province in Canada, and one of the most resource-rich places on earth.
00:10:40.480 And then the federal government comes in, takes transfer payments, gives very little back, and then puts caps on what can be done environmentally,
00:10:50.340 particularly, you know, making oil prices not attractive to the world, limiting oil output, limiting, putting ourselves in a tariff scenario.
00:11:01.340 That has to be frustrating for a province that is so dependent on the price of a barrel of oil.
00:11:07.960 Yes.
00:11:08.660 And so, let's analyze that a little bit, okay?
00:11:11.580 Our GDP per capita is the highest in Canada.
00:11:17.200 We're about 74,000.
00:11:18.500 It used to be higher.
00:11:19.520 It used to be 90.
00:11:20.600 But with this introduction of these Justin Trudeau policies to cap everything, environmental laws, we cannot do much.
00:11:30.360 So, Albertans want to export their commodities, but we're hampered by these policies.
00:11:36.280 That's another reason the independence movement gets stronger and stronger every day.
00:11:43.080 We can't even change that because we have no voice.
00:11:46.440 We only have 36 MPs.
00:11:48.920 I believe it's 36.
00:11:51.740 And we have no power.
00:11:54.600 Underrepresented.
00:11:56.700 Overmanaged.
00:11:57.700 Well, here's another example.
00:11:59.120 The Senate.
00:12:00.020 We have six senators from Alberta.
00:12:02.060 How many senators come from Nova Scotia?
00:12:05.520 And they only have a population of under a million.
00:12:07.660 Just 10.
00:12:08.940 Maritimes has a population of about 2 million.
00:12:11.540 They have 30.
00:12:13.180 Alberta has six, population of 5 million.
00:12:15.280 We contribute the most to the country.
00:12:19.060 Okay?
00:12:19.540 So, I think I understand the history a little bit better now.
00:12:23.540 And it's not so different, Paul, actually, from what I thought.
00:12:27.220 No.
00:12:27.400 And I think from what we've always assumed.
00:12:29.160 But here's the questions that remain in my mind, if you don't mind, and you can indulge me on this.
00:12:35.000 Okay, so, today in the news, the premiers all get together, and Eby says, this amounts to treason.
00:12:43.140 I hate to pull the word out.
00:12:45.240 Certainly had it pretty quickly on hand.
00:12:47.760 This is treasonous.
00:12:49.500 That's the first part of my question.
00:12:51.560 How do you feel about that comment?
00:12:53.540 Okay.
00:12:54.180 What's the definition of treason?
00:12:57.060 Defying the laws of a country?
00:12:59.160 It means overthrowing the government.
00:13:00.300 Overthrowing the government in an area?
00:13:02.440 And Albertans have not done that.
00:13:05.060 They are exercising the law.
00:13:08.160 The law says, according to the Clarity Act, you can have a referendum on independence.
00:13:14.180 We are not overthrowing the government.
00:13:15.840 In fact, I believe, in my opinion, Eby is treasonous because of his support by the Chinese Communist Party, not allowing our resources to be developed. 0.90
00:13:28.980 Okay.
00:13:29.140 According to Sam Cooper, I've listened to his podcast a few times, probably the greatest investigative journalist we have in Canada.
00:13:37.060 Indeed, indeed.
00:13:37.640 And he said, Eby was one of the smartest lawyers, politicians he's ever met.
00:13:43.860 And then he got influenced by the Chinese Communist Party.
00:13:47.440 Now, to me, that's treasonous because you're not acting on the best of the interest of your citizens, of the B.C. residents.
00:13:57.960 Why are you giving a sole contract to the Chinese to build the ferries?
00:14:04.240 That's treasonous.
00:14:05.460 We are exercising what, by law, we can do.
00:14:12.060 We are not overthrowing the government.
00:14:13.980 We're changing to what we feel is our right.
00:14:18.440 And that's exercising the right to a referendum.
00:14:22.720 And there are laws how you can get to the referendum.
00:14:27.160 And the law says you need 177,000 signatures.
00:14:30.560 And that's what we're doing.
00:14:32.160 Where are you at at the moment?
00:14:33.660 I have no idea.
00:14:34.700 We're just, our focus just is on getting signatures, getting people in the lineup, and voicing where we can sign, where people can sign the petition.
00:14:47.340 We're totally focused on that.
00:14:49.320 And I, as a volunteer, you know, we're focused on that.
00:14:52.720 We, I mean, the movement wants to get about a million signatures.
00:14:58.460 So we've got till May the 2nd to get to that point.
00:15:02.300 And you have to remember, we're, we're doing our signatures according to Elections Alberta, right, where Thomas Lukasik could just get signatures from wherever, get to a park.
00:15:15.260 But we have certain laws we have to follow.
00:15:18.040 So we're under strict guidelines.
00:15:19.940 We're following that.
00:15:21.480 And we're, you know, we're law-abiding citizens.
00:15:24.880 This is, this is what divides us from other countries. 0.61
00:15:29.160 We're law-abiding, we have good laws, and we're following those, those laws.
00:15:35.160 Javon, so help me a little bit.
00:15:37.380 So May comes, and you get the votes.
00:15:39.500 Yes.
00:15:39.680 And the, the independence movement gets the votes, right?
00:15:42.800 You get the votes.
00:15:44.320 What next?
00:15:45.100 So take me through kind of, I just want to, and, and then how do you see it going?
00:15:49.640 Because that's where, I guess, a lot of Canada is asking the question, if that's the case, where does it go?
00:15:56.320 And if the independence movement moves forward, how is the structure, and how does Alberta fit into Canada?
00:16:04.000 So, like, just.
00:16:06.640 So, if we do get the signatures after Elections Alberta verifies everything, yes, that's fine.
00:16:12.920 Then, by law, a referendum has to be held, okay?
00:16:17.080 And we're only wishing for one question on the referendum.
00:16:20.940 And when that question is presented, people vote on it.
00:16:23.900 And if it passes, okay, then it's incumbent upon the governing party of Alberta to negotiate with the federal government on how we are going to become independent.
00:16:38.760 So, you know, they, they have to negotiate on the military, whether we say, okay, we'll use the RCMP for a couple of years till we get our own police.
00:16:50.120 The pension fund has to be negotiated on, you know, tax agency, all of that.
00:16:55.880 So that takes time.
00:16:56.840 And let's, and suppose, let's say, after a year or two years of trying to negotiate and it gets nowhere, okay, the federal government is playing very, very difficult.
00:17:10.940 Well, then, what I, my understanding is that if another foreign country recognizes us as an independent state, we can declare to be an independent country.
00:17:22.980 That has happened in Kosovo, Kosovo declared independence from Serbia.
00:17:28.760 Well, the first two countries to recognize them were Japan and Canada, and then the UN recognized them.
00:17:33.900 So that's the path is going to go.
00:17:36.340 I'm, that's as far details I can, I know of, right?
00:17:41.420 The other details, all of that is, I guess, will be after the referendum has passed.
00:17:47.980 And we're, I'm hoping, listen, I'm, I'm a son of an immigrant.
00:17:52.760 I wasn't born here, born in Kenya, but I moved here when I was in, I was 12 years old.
00:17:58.180 So I, I really am a true Albertan because I can see the, the destruction the liberal party has caused to Alberta.
00:18:06.980 And then, then saying we're Canada.
00:18:10.300 Well, we're not Canada.
00:18:12.020 We're a confederation.
00:18:13.540 We're so many different provinces.
00:18:15.180 We have different cultures.
00:18:16.840 Our culture is different from Quebec. 0.98
00:18:18.540 Our culture is different from the Maritimes.
00:18:21.000 You know, it's, and I've, I've door knocked thousands of doors and I met people from Ontario.
00:18:26.220 And they say, we'll never move back to Ontario.
00:18:28.940 We, we love the atmosphere in Alberta.
00:18:31.400 We love the people.
00:18:32.600 We love what's the opportunities are here.
00:18:34.900 One of the great books I read was, I came across, it was $10.
00:18:41.140 It was in chapters before it became Indigo.
00:18:43.680 It was called Alberta Titans.
00:18:46.260 And, and it was just stories about how people in the early 1900s, 1920s, 1930s came to Alberta from Ontario for the Maritimes.
00:18:55.600 Because, you know, growing up in Calgary, you see all these great names, like, I mean, not now, but like CFC and TV, the Calgary Brewery, you know, founders of the Stampede.
00:19:08.260 It just gave you a story how they were able to settle and really what I came away was that, okay, in the early part of the 1900s, people took risk with their capital and labor to produce a product, offer a service, and they made profits.
00:19:25.520 They hired more people, so Alberta really became the kingdom of free enterprise over the years.
00:19:32.900 And if you examine Western cultures, Western countries, why have they progressed economically so much than other countries?
00:19:41.340 It's just because we allowed free enterprise to go.
00:19:44.560 And I'll give you a great example.
00:19:46.940 India was a closed economy for 70 years.
00:19:50.300 It wasn't until Manmohan Singh was elected as prime minister, I believe, in the early 90s.
00:19:57.340 And he had been educated at Harvard and as an economist, and he understood open markets.
00:20:03.560 He slowly started opening up the markets of India, like a billion people.
00:20:08.840 You know, whatever India produces, it gets consumed in India, you know, a billion people.
00:20:14.060 So, right, that's a population thing for sure.
00:20:17.960 But you need, you need income, right?
00:20:19.740 If you don't have income, you can't buy.
00:20:21.460 So that has continued with Prime Minister Modi.
00:20:24.920 He has lowered taxes.
00:20:26.460 He's opened up markets more.
00:20:28.460 India now has become the third largest economy in the world.
00:20:31.560 It's just displaced Japan. 0.99
00:20:33.660 So we believe in less central control.
00:20:38.040 And to afford people a greater standard of living, you have to have free markets.
00:20:45.340 Because the end result always is you can have socialism, communism.
00:20:49.960 After 50, 60, 70 years, those systems fail and the open market survives.
00:20:55.940 Javan, is there a compromise that would suit Alberta, you think?
00:21:01.280 Javan, no, absolutely not.
00:21:04.760 Nothing will change.
00:21:06.220 You think equalization payments will ever change in the Constitution?
00:21:10.660 Never.
00:21:11.640 Supply management, so many times other countries have tried to say to Canada,
00:21:16.420 you need to get rid of supply management.
00:21:18.360 New Zealand has abolished supply management.
00:21:22.420 I believe it was in 1982.
00:21:24.040 And their exports, right, they export 98% of their milk.
00:21:30.140 It's like $19 billion a year.
00:21:33.200 Australia got rid of their supply management in, I believe, it was 2005 or around there.
00:21:39.460 So their exports are like $3 billion a year.
00:21:43.780 Why are we so fearful of abolishing supply management?
00:21:48.820 Okay, I've abolished it.
00:21:50.620 Do you want to stay in Canada?
00:21:52.540 That's only one.
00:21:54.780 What about equalization?
00:21:56.080 We have more negotiation to do to keep these guys in.
00:21:58.040 What about the Senate?
00:21:58.900 Yeah.
00:21:59.180 You know, there's no division of power in Canada.
00:22:01.840 You elect the Parliament, the Prime Minister becomes king.
00:22:04.480 And look at the changes that Pierre Trudeau made, that Justin Trudeau made.
00:22:10.260 So it's not going to change anything, in my opinion.
00:22:15.640 It's interesting, because, you know, I've been coming to Calgary,
00:22:18.400 did the stampede since my early 20s and back and forth.
00:22:21.760 I do notice the difference in the city, for sure.
00:22:25.380 I understand.
00:22:26.300 And what type of difference do you notice?
00:22:28.980 Crime, homelessness, I see a lot more of, quite frankly.
00:22:32.060 The state of the city, as far as cleanliness.
00:22:34.280 You know, you're noticing what's going on.
00:22:35.940 And it's funny, friends that I do, when I do visit with friends here that I have here,
00:22:41.360 they're worried about their kids now.
00:22:44.120 I never heard that, right?
00:22:45.200 So the first thing they say to me, even this morning, having a coffee with a friend,
00:22:50.500 and, you know, what are my kids going to do?
00:22:53.300 What are my kids going to do?
00:22:55.580 Are they going to stay here?
00:22:56.880 You know, should we be looking at going?
00:22:58.460 That's the conversation now.
00:23:00.260 I'm glad you brought that up.
00:23:02.100 Because when I've campaigned, I ask the question,
00:23:06.720 just imagine if you came to Alberta in the early 1900s.
00:23:10.660 There's nothing here.
00:23:11.980 There's grass.
00:23:13.340 There's some buffalo.
00:23:14.940 There's the Bow River, the Elbow River.
00:23:17.620 How did we achieve this level of prosperity, this level of standard living?
00:23:24.020 Can you analyze and explain to me how we achieved that?
00:23:27.100 And out of Canada, we are the most prosperous.
00:23:29.920 So how did we achieve it?
00:23:31.440 Oh, productivity and hard work, right?
00:23:33.420 Well, that's one way.
00:23:35.580 But I think all of that relates to because we had less regulation, lower taxes,
00:23:40.980 a more open market, so people could take a risk.
00:23:45.220 So, you know, I got this definition of an economy.
00:23:49.000 What's the definition of an economy?
00:23:50.700 The Montreal Economic Institute, I sort of copied their definition,
00:23:55.380 then changed it a little bit.
00:23:57.540 I define economy as either an individual or a group of individuals
00:24:02.480 taking risk with their capital and labor to produce a service or a product for profit.
00:24:10.980 And when you have, you know, thousands of people doing that,
00:24:15.720 you have a great economy, right?
00:24:18.080 And Alberta has all of the makings of doing that. 1.00
00:24:21.440 More resource, more processing, you know, all of that leading to more employment.
00:24:28.220 From the people that service the rigs, to the people that process,
00:24:31.920 to the people that manage that supply chain here within the province.
00:24:36.980 More freedom to do that makes a better living for everybody.
00:24:42.460 Yes.
00:24:42.820 And this is the reason, right?
00:24:45.360 I ask people, okay, 1900 is nothing here.
00:24:48.520 We became prospects.
00:24:49.500 This is the reason.
00:24:50.100 How do we preserve the system so it's better for our children and grandchildren?
00:24:55.680 Okay?
00:24:56.260 So it's the free market system.
00:24:58.640 And we'll never be able to have that until we escape the claws of the Liberal Party
00:25:04.240 and the powers of Ottawa.
00:25:06.760 Okay?
00:25:07.420 And we know that's not going to change.
00:25:09.060 Until we get independence, we're in control.
00:25:10.900 We're trying to make it prosperous for future generations,
00:25:15.880 just as the settlers and pioneers of Alberta did that for us.
00:25:21.900 It's so wild to us that we show up for the Conservative Convention here in Alberta.
00:25:28.320 And within a matter of a couple of weeks,
00:25:30.980 this is all heated up to the point where there's lineups for people to sign a petition
00:25:35.080 while the leader of the Conservative Party is trying to hold his position.
00:25:40.160 It's an interesting distraction in town here
00:25:43.020 that kind of illustrates the disappointment that Albertans have with our government.
00:25:48.820 I don't see them taking too much advantage of that.
00:25:51.080 Are you not aligned all that much as a group with the Conservative Party federally?
00:25:55.100 Or do you find any alignments out there?
00:25:58.080 We're not.
00:25:58.960 You know, I certainly am not.
00:26:00.060 I used to be supporting the Federal Conservatives.
00:26:03.420 But even they, when they're in power, what have they done?
00:26:06.420 Have they changed supply management?
00:26:08.220 Have they changed equalization?
00:26:09.460 Have they changed by, nobody wants to address the most difficult decisions.
00:26:14.140 And that's, you know, that's why we elect these people.
00:26:17.660 They want to take the easy route.
00:26:18.980 They want to make their $215,000 a year.
00:26:22.180 Do we need 365 MPs in Canada making $215,000 when effectively they have no power?
00:26:29.340 Their pensions, you know, you serve 15 years, are over $100,000 in the private industry.
00:26:33.900 You work 30 years and your pension is hardly $1,000 a month.
00:26:37.460 So, our whole bureaucracy is out of line.
00:26:42.460 The Conservatives can't even do much.
00:26:44.380 In fact, I've told people, the Alberta Conservative MPs have no effect.
00:26:51.640 They should become the Bloc Alberta, just like Bloc Quebecois, right?
00:26:56.480 We've had that discussion.
00:26:57.600 So, why don't they do that?
00:26:59.760 Well, listen, the other opinion I think people have out there is, oh, Danielle Smith's dragging Alberta down to the, you know, is aligned with the separatist, sorry, independence movement. 0.60
00:27:10.700 Correct.
00:27:11.380 And it's, and really what she's going to do is just hand it off to the U.S. and there's going to, it's going to become a part of the U.S.
00:27:17.120 It won't be independent at all.
00:27:18.480 Well, you know what?
00:27:20.020 Those words are so easily said because that, it's fear-mongering, okay?
00:27:26.400 We do not wish to become under another federal government.
00:27:32.180 We're escaping one.
00:27:33.520 Why would we choose to have become another province or another state under another federal government, especially when you could have, you know, the Democratic Party with, you know, maybe Gavin Newsom has the president.
00:27:48.780 So, when he's down to California, do we wish that happened to Alberta?
00:27:52.360 No way.
00:27:53.540 We wish to become people of our own decision-making.
00:27:58.800 And that's just fear-mongering.
00:28:00.380 It's very easy to say that you've become the 51st state.
00:28:03.820 You know, when you, when you cannot argue logically, you cannot argue with the stats that I presented, with the policies that I presented, you are going to just throw out vile words.
00:28:14.580 You're going to throw out false narrative because that's all you have.
00:28:18.180 I don't think that I have any surprises in this discussion, to be honest with you, Paul, because in being here over the last year, you feel this.
00:28:28.820 You feel this, at least from a portion of the population of Alberta, that this is boiling under.
00:28:37.380 I have one last question.
00:28:39.020 Profile for me an independence supporter in Alberta.
00:28:43.980 Who are these people?
00:28:45.260 That's me.
00:28:45.700 You know, I've been to about nine town halls during the last year, and where the independence movement has presented all these stats, and there's some horrendous stats that would make your mind boggle.
00:29:02.220 Alberta lost five, you know, Canada lost $500 billion worth of investment when Justin Trudeau introduced all those policies.
00:29:09.200 Okay, so the average independence supporter is looking at all this, right?
00:29:15.900 They're just like me.
00:29:17.060 I go to these small towns, talk to people, you know, small towns that are like 400 people.
00:29:22.880 I'll tell you one story.
00:29:25.080 I went to Cremona, which is a beautiful village on the west side of Calgary.
00:29:31.280 I think it's northwest, sorry, northwest, and the population is 400 people, okay?
00:29:37.420 And, well, you know how many people showed up to the town hall?
00:29:40.680 Like 350.
00:29:41.920 Wow, it's that important.
00:29:43.340 It's very important.
00:29:45.180 And people are, these people are born in Alberta, raised in Alberta.
00:29:51.000 They've never liked the Liberal Party.
00:29:52.320 This movement comes along after 50 years, okay?
00:29:56.300 This is not something new.
00:29:57.860 This has been festering in Alberta since the mid-70s.
00:30:01.980 Finally, you know, this movement comes along, is able to educate everybody, gather some stats,
00:30:07.760 and it just started in small towns, and it slowly grew.
00:30:13.180 Every movement you can study goes from one or two people, and it takes 50, 60 years.
00:30:18.560 You can study the NAACP, the Civil Rights Movement, right?
00:30:23.480 It started in the early 1900s.
00:30:25.300 NAACP was, I think, created in the early 1900s.
00:30:28.280 It took them 50, 60 years to get the Civil Rights Act.
00:30:31.520 It really is a matter of perseverance, isn't it?
00:30:33.680 It is.
00:30:34.400 And it's usually a small population, right?
00:30:36.080 It's like usually 7% to 13% of the population start, and then from there, people join on.
00:30:41.340 And that's what caught our attention, honestly, you know, for this trip and coming out and meeting you and others,
00:30:47.160 is the fact that this is exponentially growing now at a rate, and you can feel it, right?
00:30:51.400 You can see it.
00:30:52.080 That's a movement, right?
00:30:53.180 That's a movement.
00:30:54.120 Yes.
00:30:54.540 And you can look at other movements around the world, too.
00:30:58.380 Independent countries that, you know, were under British colony slowly, slowly it developed,
00:31:03.120 and it becomes a greater movement at the very end.
00:31:06.840 People think it happened overnight.
00:31:08.540 But no, it's been here for 50 years.
00:31:10.300 It feels like that right now.
00:31:11.660 We've noted that.
00:31:12.600 In the last few weeks, it's really hit sort of a peak in discussion.
00:31:19.060 And I think it's because people's emotions have been locked up for so long,
00:31:23.820 they didn't know what to do until they said, oh, well, you can vote for a referendum.
00:31:28.000 Okay?
00:31:28.700 And, you know, thank you to our Premier Daniel Smith, who introduced, I think, Bill 14,
00:31:33.800 and this became that you need 177,000.
00:31:36.880 There's a way to do it.
00:31:37.860 Yes.
00:31:38.760 We're following the law.
00:31:40.300 This is how it's done.
00:31:41.600 We're not treasonous.
00:31:42.960 We are dedicated to the province of Alberta.
00:31:46.480 You know, and just a couple things.
00:31:48.660 And some of the, you know, some of the things, representation, I understand, and I understand
00:31:54.060 why, you know, that Senate House, how that annoys you.
00:31:58.160 But a lot of the other things, quite frankly, I am hearing everywhere in Canada right now.
00:32:04.240 So whether it be supply management, whether it be what are my children going to do, those
00:32:09.440 are very common, right?
00:32:10.480 So as we go across Canada, we do feel that crime, all those things.
00:32:15.140 We're seeing all of them.
00:32:15.900 So there are commonalities that we all have, you know, and productivity.
00:32:22.140 Like that has been the, you know, Ontario, for example, quite frankly, that's been our
00:32:26.940 Achilles heel in the last 10 years, right?
00:32:28.980 It's just our productivity per capita has gone second.
00:32:32.960 It's one of the worst in the industrialized nations.
00:32:35.200 Second last.
00:32:35.940 Yeah.
00:32:36.300 In the developed countries out of 38, right?
00:32:39.100 We make nothing.
00:32:40.400 We've kind of eroded.
00:32:41.940 And it's a shame because that's not who we were as Canadians.
00:32:47.540 So I feel the pain on those fronts.
00:32:50.340 You know, I'm with Mike.
00:32:51.740 You know, I know confidence in finding a solution is dwindled, but I still do feel that the commonality
00:32:58.980 in all those things across Canada, if they could actually be fixed or addressed, you know,
00:33:06.140 and then the representation piece to me is just sitting down and figuring that out for representation
00:33:12.500 based on participation in the economy.
00:33:16.780 Well, I think achieving Alberta independence would really help the rest of Canada because,
00:33:23.980 like I said, people only change when times are difficult, when something drastic changes
00:33:28.480 in their life.
00:33:29.760 And this will be a drastic change.
00:33:31.420 They will have to become creative.
00:33:33.160 The, you know, the end result of equalization payments is like 25% of Nova Scotia's budget
00:33:39.120 is equalization payments.
00:33:40.700 If there was no equalization payments, okay, that would have forced the Maritimes to become 0.95
00:33:46.660 creative.
00:33:47.740 Maybe it's a tourism industry that would have just expanded, okay?
00:33:53.260 It would have forced Quebec to become more creative and seek more trade.
00:33:59.100 But the income, the revenue from Hydro-Quebec is not in the equalization payments.
00:34:05.720 How is that fair?
00:34:06.740 That's unfair.
00:34:07.000 Will that ever change?
00:34:07.940 No.
00:34:08.640 No.
00:34:09.000 Like I said, Alberta independence will be better for the rest of Canada.
00:34:15.200 It will force them to think.
00:34:17.440 It's an interesting perspective.
00:34:19.240 I will tell you this, as a multi-generational Canadian, I would hate to lose Alberta.
00:34:26.040 I think that all of Canada would.
00:34:28.540 And if you did a petition to keep Alberta in, I'd be curious to see what the response
00:34:33.840 from Canadians was.
00:34:34.920 Because that petition might be part of the solution to say, look, Albertans need a better
00:34:41.040 deal or we're going to lose them.
00:34:42.800 And then how do you guarantee 40 years from now, another Liberal may not come along and
00:34:47.600 say, you know what?
00:34:49.020 We're going to put a tax on export oil.
00:34:51.900 We're going to say, those pipelines have to be shut down.
00:34:56.300 There's no guarantee.
00:35:00.000 And it's happened, right?
00:35:02.200 It's happened all the time.
00:35:03.200 I was going to say, if there's already evidence that this has occurred, it's hard to not see
00:35:07.420 it on the horizon.
00:35:08.860 Like I said, nothing will change in this country.
00:35:10.940 Nothing.
00:35:11.160 People are too comfortable.
00:35:13.520 We have a trillion dollars in debt.
00:35:16.300 I mean, if we're giving $45 billion every year to Ottawa, why do we have a trillion dollars
00:35:21.840 in debt?
00:35:22.640 And why does Alberta have $100 billion in debt?
00:35:25.700 Where has that money gone?
00:35:30.440 Javan, thank you so much for trying to get this through to us.
00:35:35.000 And by the way, with great logic and great kindness.
00:35:39.040 So I do appreciate it.
00:35:40.000 There was no shouting over this.
00:35:42.220 Just some logical moments that we all need to consider as Canadians.
00:35:46.300 When you wonder why Alberta wants to separate, you've just heard a bunch of great reasons.
00:35:52.520 Can people find out more through you?
00:35:54.860 Or where do you recommend Canadians on the whole and Albertans take a look at this?
00:35:59.680 Well, if they simply Google Alberta independence, the page for, I believe, Stay Free Alberta will show up.
00:36:07.020 And that's one of the sites they can look at.
00:36:10.520 Twitter is very good.
00:36:11.780 The Rise of Alberta is on there.
00:36:13.540 And you know what?
00:36:15.540 I recommend people who want to study Alberta independence, read this book.
00:36:22.580 I've bought a bunch of books.
00:36:24.460 This book is really good.
00:36:25.540 And it's every chapter is by a different author.
00:36:29.580 So Dr. Barry Cooper has written a chapter.
00:36:31.820 Oh, wow.
00:36:32.380 The moment of truth.
00:36:33.280 Ted Morton has written a chapter.
00:36:34.940 Preston Menning has written a chapter.
00:36:36.860 Jack Mintz has written a chapter.
00:36:38.500 And one of the great authors of Alberta has been Dr. Michael Wagner, who has written three books.
00:36:45.160 This is one of the books, no other option.
00:36:47.620 There's Alberta Separation Now and Then was the first one. 0.94
00:36:51.940 Gives you a history.
00:36:53.320 A really good book to read.
00:36:55.800 Corey Morgan has written a book.
00:36:57.980 He's a great journalist based in Calgary.
00:37:00.440 Great writer, yeah.
00:37:01.180 Great writer.
00:37:01.900 I love listening to him.
00:37:03.100 And then we have Colin McLeod, a transplant from Africa, like I am, from Kenya.
00:37:10.680 Strong, strong, independence-minded.
00:37:13.240 Great author.
00:37:14.260 Great person.
00:37:15.520 And somebody, I would also recommend reading Janice McInnes' book.
00:37:19.900 I don't know if they can see this.
00:37:21.220 Where's the camera?
00:37:21.860 Okay.
00:37:22.040 Put that camera there, yeah.
00:37:22.860 This is a great book that I read.
00:37:25.000 It's called Minding the Public Purse.
00:37:26.960 She was an NDP, finance minister in the NDP government, where Saskatchewan was going bankrupt.
00:37:32.600 How do you address that?
00:37:34.080 She closed down 52 hospitals, because they were in small towns like 700 people.
00:37:39.640 You know, governments get in power.
00:37:42.260 These MLAs, MPs get in power.
00:37:44.420 They take the easy route.
00:37:45.880 You know, we'll build a hospital, keep people appeased.
00:37:48.200 We don't care about the debt.
00:37:49.680 Let it build up.
00:37:50.440 The future generations, the future elected officials can look after it.
00:37:55.040 We'll get our 100,000, 200,000 here, and we'll get a pension, and we're out.
00:37:58.600 But, well, Janice McKinnon, we had to make some really difficult decisions, and she made them.
00:38:06.340 Boy, do I have respect for her.
00:38:08.840 And they were able to get out of that debt.
00:38:13.020 Will an independent Alberta be a democracy?
00:38:15.020 It certainly will be, and, you know, we need a division of power.
00:38:21.380 Like, the U.S. has a good system.
00:38:23.120 There's division of power.
00:38:24.540 The power is not just held by one person.
00:38:26.920 There's the House.
00:38:27.900 Then there's the Senate.
00:38:29.320 They devised a great system.
00:38:30.760 I mean, I give a lot of credit to the founding fathers who sat and figured out 250 years ago, you know, can we, like the king, can we just give one person the power?
00:38:41.620 You know, they knew that would be trouble.
00:38:44.520 How do we divide the power of the country?
00:38:48.840 I think their system is working great because there's control.
00:38:54.480 And, you know, time to time, it may not be perfect.
00:38:57.740 No system is.
00:38:59.200 But I'll tell you, it's better than what we have because we elect them.
00:39:03.000 So, Justin Trudeau got in with, like, the 33% popular vote.
00:39:07.420 And I like the two-party system because you get in with more than 50% of the vote.
00:39:13.080 So, you got 50% of the electors that voted for you.
00:39:16.420 You're in power.
00:39:17.740 I want to do what's right for Albertans in Alberta.
00:39:20.960 I'm not here to get reelected.
00:39:22.900 Okay, you're in there for four years, five years, whatever.
00:39:25.280 Let's make decisions of what's right for Alberta.
00:39:28.500 If you paid me zero salary, I'd still be doing it, right?
00:39:32.280 Unfortunately, I didn't get elected, but that's always my dream, right?
00:39:36.220 Do it for the citizens you're representing.
00:39:40.720 Make those tough, tough decisions.
00:39:43.000 We have to balance the budget.
00:39:44.660 We don't have money all the time to do this project or that project, okay?
00:39:49.520 Because that debt, people think somehow it'll be taken care of itself.
00:39:55.440 It will crush you like it did to Argentina. 0.85
00:39:59.100 Argentina was one of the richest countries in the 1900s.
00:40:03.440 When Juan Peron got elected, I believe, in 1952 or 53,
00:40:07.580 that country has been downhill.
00:40:10.000 They've gone bankrupt about eight, nine times.
00:40:13.160 Their peso has been devalued.
00:40:16.000 After 70 years, like I said before,
00:40:18.340 you can have socialism, communism, the free markets take over.
00:40:22.380 Millet gets elected, he just knocks out eight ministries right away.
00:40:25.860 So they can't afford it.
00:40:27.700 Four out of 10 Argentinians live in poverty
00:40:30.160 because 70 years of socialism has done that.
00:40:34.240 So, you know, it's wonderful to talk about,
00:40:37.240 you know, we should all be equal,
00:40:38.720 we should all have equal opportunities, right?
00:40:41.920 But we're all different.
00:40:42.880 We all have different talents.
00:40:44.400 We have different thoughts.
00:40:45.800 We have different intelligence.
00:40:46.800 And the only way I can see everybody working together
00:40:50.300 is through the free markets
00:40:51.280 because that gives an opportunity to people
00:40:53.560 to exercise their freedom.
00:40:56.560 Thanks for talking to us about this.
00:40:58.140 It's a tough topic.
00:40:59.300 Maybe I talk too much.
00:41:00.440 No, I would love that.
00:41:01.460 I think that we should continue to talk about it.
00:41:03.360 And I would love to.
00:41:04.240 As we get closer to the deadline on this,
00:41:07.340 it'd be nice to reconnect with you
00:41:08.640 and just get a feeling for what's happening here
00:41:11.680 and what you think will happen.
00:41:13.440 But understanding it from the beginning to this point
00:41:16.440 is super helpful.
00:41:17.900 Thank you so much, Siobhan.
00:41:18.800 Well, you know, it was a pleasure.
00:41:20.220 And I really appreciate that you invited me here to speak
00:41:23.440 because I'm very passionate about it, right?
00:41:26.480 And I just talk out of pure passion, pure thought
00:41:30.940 because I can see what's happened
00:41:33.260 and I can see what's coming.
00:41:34.680 We see you looking out for your fellow Albertan.
00:41:36.760 That's for sure.
00:41:37.680 Thank you very much.
00:41:38.460 It was a real pleasure.
00:41:38.740 Thank you so much.
00:41:39.340 What a pleasure to meet you all.
00:41:40.360 Thank you for joining us.
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00:42:00.200 See you next time.