00:01:34.060And so there I was down at the air show, and that was the first public show of the RCF Golden Hawks
00:01:39.240and one of the early shows of the RCF Red Knight as well.
00:01:42.140And I just remember being mesmerized by these beautiful gold airplanes and then offset by the Red Knight.
00:01:49.480And then, you know, so I became a big fan as a young kid of flying and air shows and so on and so forth.
00:01:54.540And so, you know, fast forward five years later to our safe station, Lincoln Park in Calgary, where we're based at the time, and my dad took me out to McCall Field, where the Golden Hawks were flying out of, and lo and behold, you know, they taxi right in front of me, and the pilot at the back, Gold 7, Bill Grip, who I later found out, waved to me, and, you know, there I was now, I'm 11 years old, and boy, that was it, I was hooked.
00:02:21.540So everything I did from that point forward was to try and put myself in a position, you know, educationally and so on and so forth, where I could join the Air Force and maybe someday be lucky enough to fly in an aerobatic team.
00:02:40.900And I'm thinking before you get to the Royal Military College, those years are often challenging for a lot of teenage boys.
00:02:49.080So based on that experience with the RCAF and that Golden Knights pilot waving at you, I guess you were quite motivated through high school to stick to your math, your science, your physics to make sure your marks were up so you could be a pilot.
00:03:04.080Well, I thought, you know, to give myself the best chance of trying to get into the military and become a pilot, I thought RMC was the way to go.
00:03:11.740In fact, I did my first two years here in Victoria at Railroads Military College at the time.
00:03:16.240That was from 1970 to 72, and then on to RMC for my last two years, graduating in 1974.
00:03:23.380And so eventually, there were a few roadblocks along the way.
00:03:27.080I was first told my eyes weren't good enough to be a pilot.
00:03:29.500I had to take a couple of years to get in and see what they were.
00:03:32.760And so I got reclassified and got my wings in Moose Jaw in 1975.
00:04:06.820And to my good fortune and the fortune of all of my colleagues with me on that particular course, the commandant of the school was Colonel George, Lieutenant Colonel at the time, George Miller.
00:04:19.380And the base commander was Colonel Ralph Annis.
00:04:23.020They were both RCF Golden Hawks that I had seen fly.
00:04:26.640And so we actually graduated during the Saskatchewan Air Show in 1975.
00:04:32.500And they stopped the air show so that the 16 of us could get our wings.
00:04:35.820So that was a special privilege as well, especially with those really famous commanders in charge and leading the way for us.
00:04:43.560Speaking from the Lieutenant Colonel Dan Tamesy, a member of the Canadian Declaration from his time as a member of the Snowbirds and a past president of the Snowbirds Alumni Association.
00:04:53.580Dan, before you become a snowbird, you transitioned to one of the most demanding aircraft ever in the history of the Canadian Air Force, the Widowmaker, the CF-104 starfighter in Europe, in Baden.
00:05:06.560That must have been an insane jump to go from the Tudor to that rocket with winds on it in Germany, in West Germany during the Cold War.
00:05:15.240Well, it was, you know, and, you know, as you grow up and you get into the Air Force, you know, certain airplanes you would really like to fly if you can.
00:05:24.540And obviously, I wanted to try and become a Snowbird someday.
00:05:27.220But the fighter I really wanted to fly was a CF-104 starfighter.
00:05:30.800I just, I had watched that as a young boy again at Cold Lake, Alberta.
00:05:36.140And in fact, myself and another Snowbird colleague of mine, Danny Marissier, after our first Snowbird tour, were selected for the 104.
00:05:45.140It was actually in the very last CF 104 Starfighter course.
00:05:47.940So we finished that course in the spring of 1983 and then went over and flew in the last two Starfighter squadrons in Baden-Solingen, West Germany.
00:06:04.220We practice every single day to go to war, and that was what our job was.
00:06:10.400We took it very, very seriously, lots and lots of exercises, at least two major exercises every month, and we had a very good reputation among our allies.
00:06:21.080You know, we were down to three fighter squadrons at the time in Baden, but we had a very good reputation, and for the airplane that we had, I think we did a very good job.
00:06:28.340So that was an exciting tour for me, and certainly from the perspective of the family, the best tour we ever had.
00:06:35.540You know, living in West Germany and being able to tour around Europe at that time was really special for our family, so much appreciated.
00:06:42.960How thrilling and how fast were you going?
00:06:46.120Because I heard the reputation is the Canadian Starfighters were known for flying in the deck at maximum speed to get the target.
00:06:53.280So what kind of altitudes and speeds would you be flying in
00:07:00.600So, yeah, it's a very good question, Jim.
00:07:02.140And because of the small stature of the aircraft,
00:07:06.560especially the small wingspan, we had to fly quite fast.
00:07:09.620So when we took off, we would be cruising at 450 knots of ground speed.
00:07:15.980Ideally, unless the weather dictated otherwise,
00:07:18.100we would never get above 500 feet for the entire mission.
00:07:21.600And if you were flying in a low fly area, we would get down to 250 feet, which is a much more realistic altitude for what we were going to be experiencing if we had to go to war.
00:07:46.260And that would have been down, you know, around treetop level.
00:07:48.980So we did actually practice weapons deliveries. We had three different academic ranges in Europe, West Germany. We used one in sweeps in France and also in Pampa in Belgium. And so all of our pilots on the squadron, all the squadrons, went to the academic weapons range to deliver practice weapons at least twice a week.
00:08:09.760And then probably every six months or so, we would actually go to some of the live weapons ranges and drop real ordnance just for the feel of how heavy those bombs were on your wings when you let them go and so on and so forth.
00:08:24.220So very dynamic job and very enjoyable job for all of us who had the opportunity to fly the Starfighter.
00:08:32.440When did you start to find out that you may be recruited to the Snowboards?
00:08:36.720How did that transition from being in tactical fighters to potentially being part of this exclusive elite group called the Snowbirds?
00:08:45.400Well, I think, you know, the nice thing about flying fighters back in those days is because our role was low level, we were very comfortable flying low level to start with.
00:08:53.980And, of course, my first tour on the Snowbirds had been as a solo pilot.
00:08:58.460So I had made that as what we call a pipeline instructor.
00:09:02.000In other words, I instructed on the tour for just over about three and a half years and then made the team.
00:09:05.760but I was selected to fly the solo position and that actually really set me up well for going on
00:09:12.380for the Starfighter because I was already used to flying low level, doing low level aerobatics and
00:09:17.500so on and so forth. So I was comfortable in the low level environment and then similarly when I
00:09:21.820came back to command the team which was about nine years later, you know I'd flown the Starfighter
00:09:27.840for that three years low level and again I was very very comfortable and being comfortable
00:09:32.280obviously is a key to being able to fly well
00:09:56.980How close are you in formation of the snowbirds
00:09:59.780in terms of distance, wingtip to wingtip?
00:10:02.280Well, that's it. You're wingtip to wingtip. You're literally wingtip to wingtip. So, you know, it is placed probably about three to four feet behind the aircraft in front of you. But the line of stern guys, if you will, they call themselves the stem cats. They fly directly behind the lead. They fly at a nose tail, which means that the nose of their aircraft is literally looking up at the tail of the aircraft in front of them.
00:10:26.420it's very close and it's very dynamic and depending on the conditions of the day it can
00:10:32.080be quite exciting because if you've got a turbulent day and a hot summer day or a high
00:10:36.600density altitude for example those airplanes could be dancing around quite a bit and every
00:10:42.200pilot and this is where the core expertise becomes so important for the snowbird team
00:10:46.760every pilot is trained to stay within what they call a box in his position so for example the
00:10:52.980inter-pilots that fly around the leader, yes, that's two, three, and four, their box is only
00:11:00.240about a foot. You want to stay within one foot of that ideal position because you've got other
00:11:05.360pilots flying around you on the outside. So for the outers, your box is a little bit bigger because
00:11:11.280you don't have somebody flying off your wing, but you try and stay within about a two-foot
00:11:15.140area of moving around inside that box. Now, that's something that you achieve
00:11:21.060you know once you go on the air show circuit and this is why it takes six months to work up a
00:11:25.500snowbird show because every single maneuver is different of course the conditions you fly every
00:11:30.580single day are different the winds are different you know you may have to contend with weather as
00:11:35.040well and so it's a building block process it takes a long time and i think if there's one thing that
00:11:41.100you build in terms of the camaraderie of your team it's trust you have to trust a you have to trust
00:11:47.260the leader because the leader is the only guy looking at the ground in these formations right
00:11:51.920and you're if you're coming over the top of a loop and down the back side and gaining speed and
00:11:56.960and coming out and aiming to come out at 300 feet which is the altitude that the team normally flies
00:12:01.160at the wingers are only hanging on to the to the lead and so it's ultimately responsibility the
00:12:07.780lead to keep the formation safe similarly for the solos i mean um the the solos on their head on
00:12:14.680crosses are quite close and um you know it looks it looks really really close from the ground but
00:12:20.680there's there is some illusion involved what the snowbirds do with the solos is very safe everything
00:12:25.160they do is safe everything is built around safety so if you can imagine with safety being your
00:12:31.120principal concern every pilot every one of those nine pilots on your team has a comfort level right
00:12:37.220it's what you're prepared to accept in terms of how much movement is taking place in the formation
00:12:42.360for example see on a really really windy bumpy day and so any one of those pilots at any time
00:12:48.400during a show can call what we call shadow shadow would mean he's not comfortable in in the normal
00:12:55.120formation let's just move it out a little wider and so you can do that and um and then everybody
00:13:00.380no questions asked everybody just moves out slightly and keeps the show safe to the point
00:13:05.220that and i and i've actually experienced this both both as a winger during my time and also as a lead
00:13:10.880where the show becomes, the bumps are so severe
00:13:52.940You know, you can be the best pilot in the world, but if you don't have the personality to act as part of the team, then things aren't going to work out for you.
00:14:04.100And it's one of the things that the team has always analyzed during that tryout process.
00:14:09.400Back in my day, and it's a little different now because the tours tend to be a little bit longer now, but back in my day when it was a two-year tour, we would bring in eight pilots and four of them, and then you have a competition, and four of them are going to make the team.
00:14:22.680Well, it wasn't just flying skills you were being analyzed on.
00:14:26.100It was your ability to interact with the other guys, to be part of the team.
00:14:30.560it was also your ability to be very self-critical of your own performance so if we came down off a
00:14:36.300trip it didn't matter whether you would do it a two-plane or a four-plane you come down off that
00:14:40.760trip and you then you you say to that particular candidate okay how did it go in your mind what
00:14:46.780did you think um and then you have the opportunity to spill your guts and say well this was good but
00:14:52.980i was really really bad on this okay and that was one thing to identify your own mistakes to self
00:14:57.940critique but the other thing one was how are you going to correct it what was the technique that
00:15:03.080you're what technique are you going to use now to make the next mission better is it is it trim is
00:15:08.600it power um is it anticipation it could be any of those things so this is the beauty of the of the
00:15:15.380snowbird tryout because you get to analyze all of that and then at the end of the day you know you
00:15:20.360put the guys in a social environment as well and and see how they react see how they interact with
00:15:25.860each other so the beauty of that at the end is you know you've chosen eight pilots and who on
00:15:32.760paper have all the necessary you know professional attributes and flying skills to make the team
00:15:37.960but at the end of the day then you sit down as your incumbents and you say okay which of these
00:15:44.640four are we going to take and why are we not going to take the other four in other words
00:16:09.740Dan, as an Air Force brat and now as an adult with the kids of my own,
00:16:13.240I've been to a number of air shows and seen the snowbirds.
00:16:15.380And as much as they're flying impresses me, the ability of the pilots getting out of the cockpit and meeting and greeting people and having that one-on-one almost interaction and maybe inspiring future pilots has always impressed me.
00:16:30.880That is such an important part of the job, Jim.
00:16:33.680You know, we're a public relations organization, right?
00:19:01.300And I would say the example, last October, for example,
00:19:05.700at the end of the 2025 season, when the U.S. government shut down,
00:19:10.980the Snowbirds went down and rescued several of those shows.
00:19:13.580They were already on the schedule, but they were really big American shows
00:19:17.420that now didn't have the Thunderbirds or the Blue Angels to fly in them.
00:19:21.540And the Snowbirds went, and they amazed a lot of people.
00:19:23.980You know, there was a lot of Americans who had not seen the Snowbirds before,
00:19:26.660and they were really, really impressed.
00:19:28.180And some of the reports and media that came out of places like San Francisco, for example, were really heartwarming.
00:19:36.300So, yeah, everywhere the snowbirds go, they're really welcomed with open arms.
00:19:41.540And it's just so refreshing to see that continue because, you know, the snowbirds have performed in North America to hundreds and hundreds of locations.
00:19:51.940It's probably over 400 different locations now that the team has performed at.
00:19:55.460So there's a lot of people in North America seeing the team fly.
00:19:58.180and it's just a pleasure to perform in front of all those people
00:20:01.880and that's what the team is doing right now
00:20:26.600One of the things we're really concerned with right now, and I say we, I'm talking about the Snowbirds Alumni Association, of which I'm one of the directors, we believe that the gap now, as the plan stands, is going to be way too long.
00:20:43.760for all those reasons i just explained about how intricate the training process is and the beauty
00:20:50.920of the snowbirds and we're not unique in this regard at all is that every year you take your
00:20:57.080incumbent team members and you train your new your new pilots that process takes six months
00:21:02.520so if you stand the team down that core expertise which is so vital is perishable
00:21:10.140um snowbird flying is something you have to do all the time and you know the techniques that
00:21:17.020the snowbirds use are not used by anybody else in the rcaf so when it comes to the way we fly
00:21:23.120formation the way we do solo aerobiotics low level nobody else teaches that nobody else knows
00:21:28.560how to do it only the snowbirds know how to do that so if you shut the team down for any length
00:21:33.560of period at all those that skill set is lost and then when you try and start again and especially
00:21:39.080like you you don't start for five or six years then boy oh boy you've got a real challenge on
00:21:44.080your hands and and so we're just trying to to find a way a different way a better way
00:21:49.880of making this transition and and we believe that the way to do that is to keep the team flying on
00:21:55.200the tutor with a smaller team um very similar to what some of the other teams are doing for example
00:21:59.960the red arrows are transitioning to a seven plane team this year they're looking at a brand new
00:22:04.840advanced jet trainer um to be introduced in 2030 or 2031 and um and we would like to be doing the
00:22:12.220same thing by keeping the tutor flying at uh you know for that length of time so we all believe
00:22:18.320very strongly having you know collectively thousands and thousands of hours flying that
00:22:23.020airplane that the airplane is safe this is not an issue and by the way let me just say this that
00:22:28.840we're very strong supporters of the rcf uh don't get me wrong we're very strong support of the rcf
00:22:33.600We all had wonderful careers in the RSAF.
00:22:35.600So what we're trying to do here is to find a balanced way where we can keep the team flying
00:22:40.100and keep that essential core expertise on the Tudor until we can transition to a new aircraft.
00:22:45.800Now, the government has decided that they want that airplane to be the Syskin, the PC-21.
00:22:55.480It's not an airplane I personally would favor, but that's nothing against the airplane.
00:23:08.500So if we can keep the Tudor flying for a few more years on a reduced team to keep the core expertise, then get the new aircraft as quickly as we possibly can so we can do that transition.0.70
00:23:18.780Ideally, what you'd like to be able to do, and this is what the Red Arrows are going to do.
00:23:22.580this is what the italian fracchio tricolori are doing with their teams is you you finish a season0.56
00:23:27.180with with your your team intact let's say you know with the snowbirds and the tutor
00:23:31.460then you transition onto the new aircraft immediately the entire team you don't change
00:23:36.260anything you take that entire team you transition onto the new aircraft and you might take an extra
00:23:41.580say three months for example because you're going to convert onto that new aircraft and you're going
00:23:46.360to adapt your show onto that new airplane um but you can do that and that's the best way to do it
00:23:53.600Then nothing changes except you're now taking the show that you've been flying and comfortable with for as many years as you've been flying in the snowbirds.
00:24:00.980You put them on a new airplane, and all of a sudden, the next time they appear, and they appear when they say they're ready, and now you're flying a brand-new airshow and a brand-new aircraft, and that's what we think we need to do if we can.
00:24:13.180You left the military, Lieutenant Cunghill.
00:24:15.720You had been in over 20 years, and even at that time, the tutor was getting long in the tooth.
00:24:20.540Do you know any reason why the government didn't think about this transition earlier, so to prevent this gap between one plane to the next?
00:24:29.160You know, it's a really good question, Jim, and it's so unfortunate.
00:24:31.980I think everybody realizes now how unfortunate that this is, given the fact that the snowbirds are so important to our country.
00:24:39.140We've been trying to get new jets for the snowbirds for 23 years.
00:24:43.720I was involved way back in 2002 with some other interested parties.
00:24:48.360As a volunteer, you know, I don't get paid by anybody.
00:24:51.560I don't lobby for anybody particularly.
00:26:01.880And I know that, you know, I'm sure that there are various politicians now and perhaps some other senior military personnel who were retired that wish that somehow we could have transitioned onto a new aircraft before now.
00:26:15.880but we didn't so this is where we are um we have to face that reality and we have to do the best
00:26:21.080we can in the best interests of the country and the canadian forces and the rcf to transition
00:26:26.920onto a new airplane just as fast as we possibly can but the key is let's keep the airplane flying
00:26:33.240keep the tutor flying it's perfectly safe to fly um let's keep it flying for a few more years until
00:26:38.680we can make that transition a lot smoother and a lot faster after your flying career in the military
00:26:44.680You had a long and illustrious career as an airline pilot, flying some of the big boys, the Boeing 777 and all these other planes across the world for various airlines.
00:26:54.300Did you ever have passengers recognize you as a snowbird pilot and talk to you about that?
00:27:02.580Yeah, it's amazing, you know, when you've signed, literally, and back in our day when we were doing, you know, quite a few more shows, we signed about 10,000 autographs a year every season.
00:27:14.080and that's that's that's not an exaggeration at all you know we were doing 70 to 74 shows a season
00:27:20.280and um and so you're doing pr functions all the time so you know when you're when you're signing
00:27:26.620autographs people are noting who you are i can tell you that i still have autographs from the
00:27:32.480golden hawks in 1963 you know and i and i i'm very delighted to say i met most of those pilots um
00:27:39.140one of them ended up being my boss at Moose Jaw for a while. And so you kind of cherish these
00:27:45.000things. And so every once in a while, because you are kind of recognizable, someone will come up and
00:27:49.540say, hey, I remember you from, they may not get the year right, but they might say, I remember you
00:27:54.480when you were leading the Snowbirds and you did this. Or for example, in 1990, when we had red
00:27:59.480and white smoke to celebrate the 25th anniversary of the Canadian flag, that was a big year. It was
00:28:04.600a unique year. It was the only year we ever did the season with the red and white smoke. So
00:28:09.120Yeah, it does happen, and it's kind of nice.
00:28:11.400You're kind of surprised when it does happen, but, yeah, it's a nice thing when people recognize you for sure.
00:28:18.100And you've accomplished so much in your career as an adult, as a pilot, as a professional,
00:28:23.860but I would have to think there's an extra little boost of pride knowing what you contributed to the legacy of the snowboards, Dan.
00:28:33.780You know, our legacy goes back 97 years.
00:28:37.980In 1929, just five years after the RCF was formed, we had this new little aerobatic team called the Siskins, and that was the Siskins Fighter.
00:28:47.560And that's why we were the new trainers being called the Siskins.
00:28:50.560But the Siskins Fighter was formed in 1929.
00:28:54.140They started off with two aircraft doing little aerobatics.
00:28:58.560and then by 1931 they had this very the very first time in canada's great trans canada national air
00:29:05.240pageant it was called and they went to 26 cities starting in sydney nova scotia all the way out to
00:29:11.140vancouver they actually opened the vancouver international airport in 1931 and it was five
00:29:17.100siskins at that time five siskins on the team and about 18 civilian aircraft so it's this great
00:29:22.160entourage that went all the way across canada imagine in 1931 uh demonstrating you know flying
00:29:29.520prowess um and aerobatics to thousands and thousands of canadians and that was that was
00:29:35.620really the the really big start and then we've had so many different illustrious teams over the years
00:29:41.260you know the the blue devils was a team on the vampires uh we had lots of triple pop teams you
00:29:47.300You know, back in my day when we had the Starfighter and the Voodoo and the CF-5, all of those aircraft had multiple teams.0.97
00:29:55.860You know, one stage, one year, we had five different Voodoo teams flying across the country.
00:29:59.680And then you had the Golden Centenares in 1967, which were a phenomenal team and set a record of 121 shows in 1967, a record that will never be matched, ever.0.95
00:30:12.760An incredible year celebrating Canada's 100th birthday.
00:30:16.600And, of course, they had been formed thanks to the efforts of the Golden Hawks
00:30:20.220and the five years that they flew from 1959 to 1963.
00:30:24.040But, you know, you have to take your hat off, too.
00:30:26.220In fact, we just had a big celebration here at the BC Aviation Museum in Victoria
00:30:31.300where we dedicated the original Snowbird 1 aircraft.
00:30:34.840And one of the gentlemen we dedicated that to was Colonel O.B. Philp,
00:30:39.160who'd been the commanding officer of the Golden Centenares.
00:30:42.680And he became the base commander in Moostra in 1969.
00:30:45.920eventually discovered these white airplanes asked what they were well they were his old golden
00:30:50.240centenary airplanes and so that got obi's mind turning and he said right i'm going to start my
00:30:56.660own little air show team here and see what we can build on and that's exactly what he did in 1971
00:31:01.620a seven plane team non-aerobatic building block process and you know 1972 went to a nine ship
00:31:09.420And then in 1974, they actually got the new paint scheme that they're now, you know, Canadians are familiar with.
00:31:18.200And now we're doing formation aerobatics.
00:31:20.760We're doing changes within the formation, much as what you see in today's Snowbird show.
00:31:26.620So that all started way back in those days.
00:31:28.920So we dedicated this airplane to OB, who was from Sydney, British Columbia, and also to Major General Retired Glenn Younghusband and Colonel Retired George Miller.
00:31:38.440And they were the first two pilots to fly that very aircraft, which was tail number 175, and now is proudly on display at the DC Aviation Museum.
00:31:47.440And the last gentleman that we were really happy to dedicate the airplane to as well was a gentleman by the name of Badger, call sign Badger, Berger North.
00:31:56.660Badger was a senior instructor at the Flying Instructor School in Moosejah in 1971, but had a flair for art.
00:32:03.960and it was Badger that actually designed that that Snowbird crest the Snowbird logo and there's now
00:32:09.500so famous around the world so having those having those three well Obi's gone but he was represented
00:32:14.760by his daughter but dedicating the airplane to those four individuals was really special and
00:32:19.520that was all part of that great you know west coast extravaganza we just had with the Snowbirds
00:32:25.420so we had the entire Snowbird team there with us and boy that was that was so special to have them
00:32:31.040there and of course long autograph lines i mean the the autograph line for the snowbirds probably
00:32:35.380stretched close to 100 meters at one stage so that's how many you know kids and adults were
00:32:40.160out there to try and meet the team it's really special well it's amazing to me that here's
00:32:44.800here david foster one of the most accomplished singer songwriter producers musical icons in the
00:32:51.320last 50 years he looked like a teenager giddy standing by the snowbirds and the photos i think
00:32:56.800it's amazing it is amazing and you know david is such a great friend of ours um david is one of our
00:33:03.320original honorary snowbirds there's a society of honorary snowbirds of stuff in 1995 and the idea
00:33:08.240was to recognize special people canadians and americans alike but mainly canadians who had
00:33:13.700done something special for the team over the years and of course david had got this great
00:33:17.360movie come out in 1986 i think it was 87 actually called the real stuff and um and narrated the film
00:33:24.780and had all this fantastic footage in that production.
00:33:30.360It went, you know, shown all over North America for sure.
00:33:33.460And so Dave's been a close friend ever since.
00:33:47.660So the Snowbirds really went out of their way to do that
00:33:49.600because, of course, they're at Abbotsford
00:33:51.020and they're there for the Abbotsford Air Show.
00:33:53.860So, you know, kudos to the Abbotsford Air Show and to the Snowbirds for having, you know, adjusted the schedule to make this happen so they could come.
00:34:00.760And I can tell you, the people in Victoria were thrilled.
00:34:03.860There was about 70,000 out for that concert.
00:34:06.340And they were absolutely thrilled to see the Snowbirds fly over.
00:34:09.180And also, we had three CF-18s from 410 Squadron and Cold Lake come over as well.
00:34:14.520So it was one of the great nights in Canadian history, I tell you.
00:34:18.360If you're a David Foster fan, it was absolutely magnificent.