00:00:57.880So, okay, let's unpack this a little bit because there's only really a little bit of unpacking to do.
00:01:05.860But, you know, maybe we can draw some comparisons to some of our neighbours and see where we end up.
00:01:11.380What was the purpose of the study to start with?
00:01:15.460I think Canadians often misunderstand the true cost of the healthcare system.
00:01:19.040In part, it's because we often hear these numbers that really don't make sense on an individual basis.
00:01:24.300When we hear we spent $230 billion on healthcare or $60 or $50 billion at the provincial level, that doesn't really mean a lot to a Canadian.
00:01:32.580It's also free at the point of view, so we don't really understand on an individual basis what we're paying.
00:01:36.960So, what we sought to do is determine by knowing, we know how much taxes each Canadian family or average Canadian family types pay each year.
00:01:45.180And we worked out simply as a portion of those taxes, what does healthcare cost them?
00:01:48.800Knowing that healthcare costs about 24% of the total tax bill.
00:01:52.480So, from that, you extrapolate, okay, here's what it's costing each of us.
00:01:59.340Now, I think what was shocking to me was, you know, right away, of course, the first thing that we did, and many people do, is say, okay, what does that number equal per person?
00:02:08.600And I think the number that you came up with was $19,060.
00:02:16.820For the average Canadian family of four.
00:02:18.560So, the average Canadian family of four has a cash income of about $182,800, their average tax bill is going to be about $77,000, 24% of that, it's $19,060, or sorry, $80,000 is the tax bill, $19,060 for a family of four.
00:02:37.160For an average three-person family, two parents, one child, it's about $18,300, two parents, no children, $17,400.
00:02:43.820And then, as we get to unattached individuals or single-parent households, the income numbers are much lower, which leads to healthcare spending numbers between $52 and $5,900.
00:02:53.940When you were going through this, were there any surprises that popped up or any notes that you thought, wow, I think we should all take note of this?
00:03:03.700We've been doing this for many years now, this study, just trying to help Canadians better understand how much healthcare actually costs them.
00:03:09.060What we have seen, though, since we started the study and since we started the data set in 1997, in fact, healthcare spending for the average family has risen faster than the cost of food.
00:03:19.080It's risen faster than the cost of shelter.
00:03:23.820It's only risen slower than clothing because clothing has suddenly declined since the pandemic and people have shifted their purchasing patterns.
00:03:30.340And then, at the same time, we're seeing reports coming out that Canadians, by and large, are not happy with healthcare, that wait lines are driving people away from hospital waiting rooms unattended.
00:03:44.720A million Canadians said that they, a million instances in Canada of people just walking out of the hospital because they didn't think it was worth their while waiting it out.
00:03:54.380But what are your feelings with that, that report up against this enormous cost increase?
00:04:06.900Well, I think if we step back from this report one step and look at the total cost of the Canadian healthcare system, healthcare in Canada, our healthcare system is one of the developed world's most expensive universal access healthcare systems.
00:04:18.560We're in the top five countries when it comes to spending, and yet, when it comes to access, when it comes to wait times, numbers of doctors, numbers of medical technologies, we're in the bottom five, bottom four.
00:04:30.660We have some of the longest wait times for access to healthcare in the developed world.
00:04:33.560So, this is a very expensive healthcare system that delivers very little in terms of access relative to what others do.
00:04:39.780And I think when we ask ourselves the question as a family of four, did we get $19,000 worth of value out of our healthcare system?
00:04:45.920That's a massive expenditure for healthcare system that is effectively turning people away at the emergency room door, that doesn't give us proper primary care access, that has remarkably long waits for access to non-emergency surgeries.
00:04:59.440Nadine, there's such massive coverage insurance plans in the U.S. for private healthcare that is effective and quick.
00:05:08.860Do you think that this comparison also is going to make Canadians say, hold on a second here?
00:05:13.580Maybe it's time to privatize some or all of this and, you know, rein it in as a business.
00:05:23.680Certainly, I think comparisons with the southern border are unavoidable.
00:05:26.840We know what the insurance costs down there.
00:05:28.540There are some meaningful differences, though, in terms of what the public system covers in the U.S. versus here.
00:05:32.920I think a more interesting comparison is let's look at Switzerland.
00:05:36.440Switzerland, as a share of total income, spends about what we do on healthcare.
00:05:39.560There really isn't a lot of difference.
00:05:41.420If you're a Swiss citizen in their universal access healthcare system, you have private hospitals and private healthcare insurance and private alternatives and cost share.
00:05:48.980All the things that we were told destroy Medicare or would destroy Medicare in Canada.
00:05:53.360And yet in Switzerland, you get some of the best access to universal access healthcare in the developed world.
00:05:57.820Very short waiting lists, lots of physicians, lots of medical technologies, lots of hospital beds ready to receive patients in need.
00:06:05.280Whereas in Canada, for the same amount of money, with government dominating the system and none of that private activity, we have some of the worst access to healthcare in the developed world.
00:06:14.040I think that's the interesting comparison is for $19,000 for the average Canadian family, we could have the best healthcare in the developed world.
00:06:21.460We just have to be more like Switzerland and less, unfortunately, like Canada.
00:06:26.940Well, that's, yeah, it is unfortunate to hear that.
00:06:29.820What are some of the steps you think we take or, you know, what do we say to our government to get us into a better position?
00:06:37.700And how do you think we push ourselves there?
00:06:40.300The first step, I think, importantly, is to get Ottawa out of the way of the provinces.
00:06:45.820Right now, Ottawa has the Canada Health Act, which governs a financial agreement between the federal and provincial governments.
00:06:51.720And it says, if you follow all the rules in the Canada Health Act, you get your health transfer, which is $55 billion.
00:06:56.800Well, that's being used as a stick to keep the provinces from actually reforming healthcare, because that act actually does stop some particular reforms and has been used to stop others.
00:07:06.440We need Ottawa to let the provinces innovate.
00:07:08.340Let Alberta, let Quebec, let British Columbia, let Ontario, let them innovate.
00:07:12.320And if other provinces don't want to, that should be a provincial decision.
00:07:16.180And then once the provinces are free, the structure is actually fairly straightforward.
00:07:20.200We need to allow private providers to compete in delivering services.
00:07:23.300We need to have some form of user fees or cost sharing a small fee to access the doctor's office, to access the emergency room.
00:07:30.060Not so we're trading off food versus healthcare, but certainly so we're trading off other things we may purchase in the economy versus healthcare to remind patients to make a more informed decision about when and where it's best to access the healthcare system.
00:07:41.080And finally, we have to allow people the opportunity to choose otherwise, to choose looking after themselves with their own resources when the universal system is unwilling or unable to meet their needs.
00:07:50.060Just those reforms will make the Canadian healthcare system far more like those healthcare systems and other more successful systems, but it's going to improve the healthcare system we have here in Canada.
00:08:00.040I would love to know how many Canadians, if you said to them, look, it's going to cost you an extra $5,000 a year, but it's going to give you instant access, better response times, all of these added benefits that we hope to find in our healthcare system.
00:08:17.640I wonder how many Canadians would just say, yeah, I'm good with that actually. I think that that's money worthwhile. Or do we expect the government to rein it into the degree that it's actually manageable at the rates that we are paying now? I'd be curious to see which way it goes.
00:08:35.940Well, I think the important point here is to understand, we don't need to spend anything more on healthcare than we already are to have really great universal access healthcare, we just need to spend that money more wisely, we need government to step to a more appropriate role of overseeing and protecting, overseeing and rather ensuring the healthcare system functions appropriately for everyone.
00:08:57.860And then allowing the private sector to do what it does best, which is deliver high quality services efficiently and effectively. That's the Australian experience, the Swiss experience, the Swedish experience, the German experience, the Dutch experience, any number of countries around the world that we can use as examples.
00:09:13.600Wouldn't it be amazing to say to Canadians, we can spend exactly what we are now, but we can actually have the universal access to high quality care in a timeframe that provides comfort and peace of mind that we've been promised, but we haven't actually gotten from our governments.
00:09:27.860Anything that you find in the way of news right now about our healthcare system is not exactly flattering. And I think Canadians, it's one of the top concerns that we have in our happiness. I would imagine that in the coming years, government's going to be held to a certain standard.
00:09:47.680What do you think is getting in the way right now of Canadians getting up against the federal government on this topic? And do you think that they can continue to ignore it or they're going to have to address it right now with the Carney government?
00:10:00.560I think governments are paying a lot of attention to it. Nobody wants to touch it because it is a bit of a third rail for politics, especially federally. There are a lot of interest groups and a lot of vested interests who benefit from the current system. We certainly are working very hard to defend it.
00:10:16.360And Canadians have been told for years and years that any reform we make to this system is going to mean necessarily adopting an American style and non-universal approach, which is nonsense and absolutely incorrect, but Canadians have become convinced of it.
00:10:29.140Even today across Canada, we're hearing ads from various interest groups saying we need public healthcare. We need the government to stay focused and not allow for the private sector to act in healthcare, even though we know the evidence is absolutely clear that gets us better healthcare sticking to the system.
00:10:44.620We have now just continues us down this path of terrible access for a very large price tag. So the vested interests are powerful in healthcare. I think there's a strong political dynamic discouraging reform, but the reality is provinces are having to move.
00:10:56.440They're realizing they're realizing they can't afford this system. They're realizing they can't keep going to the public asking to be reelected in the face of a healthcare system where hundreds of thousands of patients across Canada are leaving emergency rooms because they just can't get the care they need, where hundreds of thousands of Canadians, millions of Canadians are on a waiting list waiting for the healthcare they need in a healthcare system that sticks taxpayers with one of the largest price tags in the developed world.
00:11:19.400Reform begins with discussion, and the discussion has been about the price of public healthcare insurance 2025, put out by the Fraser Institute at the helm, Nadeem himself.
00:11:34.320So, man, delighted to spend a moment talking about this. Thanks for unpacking it for us and having a nice discussion.
00:11:44.980Dozens of other countries with universal healthcare have managed this. Better wait times, more access to doctors, the ease of surgery, and medical attention at all levels. Canada seems broken on almost every level, and we're paying more than most of those universal healthcare countries. Something needs done.
00:12:07.800A great discussion today with Nadeem. More discussions like this right here on this network. This is The Daily Canceled. Please subscribe and tell a friend about it, and feel free to make a comment. We'll catch you next time. Thank you.