True Patriot Love - Why Ontario’s Liquor Shelves Are Empty

00:00:00.000 some of your uh favorite american alcohols are no longer on the shelves here in ontario i know that

00:00:09.840 for sure i hear the complaints uh jim beam has closed up shop south of the border because uh

00:00:15.120 apparently canadians drank all the bourbon that they needed to sell and uh it's almost a confusing

00:00:21.200 time in the world of alcohol sales and production here in canada the reason that i say that is

00:00:28.800 because i really don't follow that industry all that closely i don't drink uh most of my family

00:00:35.360 uh you know they they dabble but none of us are really connoisseurs of alcohol save for a tequila

00:00:41.760 in my house on occasion uh but that is an ethnic thing that we welcome in our home so i reach out

00:00:48.960 today for a better understanding of what's going on from andre prue he's a freelance writer you'll

00:00:54.320 find him in toronto life and his podcast two guys talking wine positions him perfectly as the guy we

00:01:01.440 need to talk to about what's happening on the liquor shelves and the wine shelves here in canada hey

00:01:06.160 andre hey mike how's it going good thanks for doing this i really appreciate it you are the guy in the

00:01:11.280 know you you make wine even yes i've got a little company the adx wine company we make about 400 cases

00:01:18.240 of a high-end wine per year that you can find on the shelves of some fine restaurants from toronto to

00:01:24.320 ottawa to hamilton uh but uh not on the shelves of the lcdo uh making it even more exclusive uh and

00:01:32.240 great reviews on it by the way speaking of reviews you're in the know as i point out you're writing

00:01:36.800 about what's happening in the wine world on a regular basis and your podcast covers it can you uh sort

00:01:42.720 of unpack for me what's going on legally uh here in canada on on the on the liquor shelves oh uh i

00:01:50.400 mean where to even begin like the fact that like we have the 13 different jurisdictions i think that

00:01:55.200 most people watching this would know is that alcohol sales vary widely from province to province and um

00:02:01.600 you know i recently my family is from saskatchewan i live in ontario uh on a visit back home you know was

00:02:07.840 shocked to see that things had changed quite a bit it's quite recent that the saskatchewan government

00:02:13.840 had opened up their sales to private uh private retailers um i was very excited to see a wine and

00:02:20.320 beyond had opened um american products are back on the shelves of saskatchewan stores um and you know

00:02:27.040 i'm very much in support of the uh elbows up movement but i could not resist picking up a bottle of

00:02:34.560 weller bourbon which is something that even when it did hit the shelves in ontario would sell out

00:02:40.480 virtually instantly um so you know apologies that my elbows aren't as high up as many other people

00:02:47.440 would probably like them to be um but the thing that i was also very very shocked about was the fact

00:02:54.400 that i went into this individual shop you know in the um in the east end of regina and they had at least

00:03:02.000 20 different bottles of champagne available for new year's like proper champagne from france from

00:03:08.720 france from the champagne region bubbles yeah not not lumping in all the sparkling wines into one

00:03:13.600 category where you know even if i set foot in the oakville or the summer hill location of the lcbo in

00:03:19.680 ontario and as someone who is a connoisseur and a journalist i do make the tracks to the flagship stores

00:03:25.760 in ontario to look for the good stuff for lack of a better term your selection is half what this

00:03:32.880 little warehouse type store in the east end of regina has so um you know i'm fairly critical of

00:03:39.280 the lcbo and in general and how things are going and you know paying attention to the news right now

00:03:45.920 you know as i've said i'm fully in support of what canada is doing with risk or what ontario is doing in

00:03:51.040 restricting us alcohol sales because it is one of the very few fronts in this trade war where we

00:03:56.880 actually do hold a couple of cards in our hand and it seems to be yeah and i mean it is something where

00:04:03.360 you know in states like kentucky and california more so in in kentucky and tennessee where your

00:04:10.000 lawmakers are likely to have the ear of the president you have people willing to put pressure on the

00:04:14.800 president to eliminate tariffs move tariffs like it's one of the few fronts of this trade war where we

00:04:19.920 have an upper hand you know california to a lesser extent because i don't think donald trump is

00:04:25.200 paying too much attention to what the californian lawmakers are saying he's made it he's a little

00:04:30.000 disconnected there you're with me or you're against me and like this is this is not partisanship in any

00:04:35.760 way shape or form it's just a statement of a statement of fact but um so now let me ask you andre

00:04:42.960 sorry uh let me ask you then so this this reduction of product on the shelves

00:04:47.200 um it seems consumers are missing it there is no doubt about it if you you know i did a little

00:04:52.080 bit of reading online is any of this going to change in the next little while here in ontario is is really

00:04:57.120 the the question i mean we're starting to see cracks forming a little bit on the patience of the the

00:05:03.840 populace like wab canoe in manitoba you know recently announced stocking the american products that

00:05:10.160 were in the warehouse and donating proceeds of that uh to charity if i'm not mistaken mistaken which

00:05:18.000 which i do think is you know an interesting move because we do have american products sitting in

00:05:22.400 warehouse and you know as someone who owns a wine business you know it i don't sell my products out

00:05:28.160 instantly when a pallet of adx rose sitting in a warehouse i have to pay my like 12 to 20 bucks a month

00:05:34.960 storage fee you know this is going on for most of the year and think about the number of pallets that is

00:05:39.360 and you know i'm i'm always critical of how the lcbo is run in terms of it not being an efficient

00:05:44.480 operation this is definitely not an efficient way to do business even with a trade war going on

00:05:50.000 and there have been calls for for premier ford to you know release the products maybe do something

00:05:56.160 similar to manitoba or just sell them out you know um on the other hand though you know as someone who

00:06:04.000 writes about wine went to kentucky on his honeymoon and loves american whiskey as i said earlier in this

00:06:10.720 there are alternatives from other parts of the world like if you're really jonesing for your

00:06:15.840 california cabernet sauvignon you know it might be a time to start discovering australia or south america

00:06:20.800 and frankly you might save a few bucks if your go-to is is ultra premium california like

00:06:25.680 like i do think that this is where the elbows can and could be up well it's interesting because in

00:06:31.840 other industries uh other sectors uh most recently i i did an interview with dan mcteague about oil for

00:06:38.960 example it's time for canadians to start to find other markets to sell to and other markets to buy

00:06:44.160 from yep that are not so reliant on you know us customers i hope that that happens and so far are you

00:06:52.800 starting to see any other um i guess uh manufacturers uh distributors of wines for example starting to

00:07:01.040 make headlines or uh headway here in canada um well i know that it is the challenge because making wine

00:07:08.640 is climate specific uh and like this is something i've had this is somebody who's covered the ontario

00:07:13.200 wine industry quite closely that i still deal with on a regular basis and people say we can't make good

00:07:18.000 red wine in ontario and when someone says that to me i ask what they typically drink and they say

00:07:22.960 california italy south america it's just like we the reality is we don't have the climate to

00:07:29.040 make like big juicy red wines that people love here um so you know if your go-to has been california this

00:07:36.080 might not be the the place the place to be but places like bc and whatnot so we we but we are seeing

00:07:44.320 you know much to my chagrin like we're seeing people in the ontario wine industry trying to respond

00:07:49.760 trying to meet that demand in the hopes that we might discover uh new customers or customers

00:07:55.760 might discover new products that they they like um i remain skeptical because during the pandemic in

00:08:01.440 2020 we did see an immense surge in local interest and an immense surge in local sales for the local

00:08:09.040 wineries in ontario but you know the moment the restrictions were lifted people went back to their

00:08:13.120 old drinking habits so you know as much as we're going to weather the storm here even if the

00:08:18.880 tariffs are here forever there's no way that this market is going to remain completely closed to the

00:08:23.520 americans indefinitely especially with negotiations that are going to take place you know at some point

00:08:30.480 like there's no way this market's going to stay completely closed but you know we are seeing the ripple

00:08:35.280 effects i did see a news article uh published by um a colleague i've traveled with yesterday saying

00:08:41.600 that um ultra premium wineries in california are starting to look at readjusting their prices and as

00:08:47.440 a consumer this is something i've been very excited about um the political landscape having a direct

00:08:52.880 impact on that tourism from canada to california down 25 tourism from europe down to california 15 and

00:09:00.000 this is all due to the current political climate but you know i've been saying for years that you

00:09:06.080 know there's a bit of a storm on the horizon for a region like california that doesn't have the pedigree

00:09:12.000 of a region like france um with just you know the quality of the product is very good but it's hard

00:09:18.640 to justify the prices of some of them and outside of tariffs and i know like that's what brought us

00:09:25.600 together to have this conversation is the jim beam story when you and i uh did a bit of a pre-interview

00:09:32.240 alcohol consumption has been going down over the past few years and that was my next question it seems

00:09:38.480 like you know we keep hearing oh it's bad for your health you know for a long time of course it is uh

00:09:45.520 you know it's one of those things uh for a long time and you might recall this we heard you know the

00:09:50.160 french live longer healthier lives because they drink wine every day uh we later found out that

00:09:55.920 it had more to do with how they categorize morbidity in that country as opposed to the wine having

00:10:02.960 anything uh saving grace in there but yeah we've seen uh maybe through the use of cannabis uh in the

00:10:09.520 marketplace i don't know if that's had an effect but certainly uh people have a more health conscious

00:10:14.400 approach to drinking i i don't think it's just a health conscious approach like there's so many

00:10:19.680 facets to this this story um and i've been finding it fascinating because uh in my past life i was a

00:10:26.240 news producer at cfrb in in toronto and for the longest time millennials were being blamed for

00:10:32.560 everything everything that was going wrong in the media everything that was going wrong with the housing

00:10:35.520 market blah blah now people are blaming gen z saying oh it's gen z's fault that wine sales are dropping

00:10:40.080 gen z aren't drinking them and it's because of the the healthy lifestyle blah blah blah but you know i'm

00:10:44.080 taking the pulse of uh my cohort boomers can't mix it with their medications you understand andre so

00:10:51.040 well i mean boomers are still buying the ultra premiums of this is something i recently did a

00:10:54.720 trip to portugal um i'm a big fan of port um you know fortified sweet wine you know there's a good

00:11:02.160 chance that your grandparents drank it you know my grandparents certainly drank it kept a bottle a

00:11:07.040 bottle in the liquor cabinet but like it's really good stuff and when i assembled my piece that i did

00:11:12.000 because i i interviewed some winemakers there and visited some of the wineries in in the city which

00:11:16.960 just as a quick plug if you're ever planning a vacation the city of porto is one of the most

00:11:21.120 beautiful places on the planet um i was expecting doom and gloom when i was doing my research on

00:11:26.720 sales stats but i actually wasn't really surprised when i got the numbers back to me it's the entry level

00:11:32.880 category you know if you're the owner of yellowtail right now if you're the owner of like seven deadly zins or

00:11:38.000 josh apart from the terrace if you're if you're at the bottom of the market and you're mass producing

00:11:43.280 what is basically plonk for the masses this is where i'd be worried uh because when i pulled the

00:11:49.520 sales stats on porto the entry level market has completely collapsed and is in the process of

00:11:56.000 collapsing further but the ultra premium the vintage ports the 10-year the 20-year tawnies the stuff that

00:12:02.560 hits the top shelf the stuff that costs a little bit more the category is actually increasing so

00:12:08.080 it's more of a a refined or exclusive brand uh uh that people are seeking out they'd rather have the

00:12:16.160 premium brands than just uh buy slop and and uh become unwell in the process you well i guess if

00:12:22.880 you're not necessarily that but like if your go-to was you know picking up a half dozen bottles of

00:12:27.200 yellowtail and having that be your typical wine to have around the house that kind of culture is

00:12:31.440 disappearing and like myself included i i don't i don't drink on the weekdays i save it for the

00:12:36.560 weekend and even then i preach moderation because frankly i'd rather open a 50 bottle of um you know

00:12:43.600 penfolds on a saturday with a really nice cut of meat then you know open up an eight dollar bottle of

00:12:51.680 yellowtail on a monday with whatever i'm cooking throwing together quick in the kitchen for me and my

00:12:56.480 time right you know and you make it more of a a destination moment uh in your week that has uh

00:13:03.200 some some special meaning to it a better meal it comes alongside a special moment just for you it's

00:13:09.440 not part of the daily grind as it were for people and i i'm noticing that as well well and we're even

00:13:14.240 seeing that in france like in a in a in a country where culturally speaking like you talked about the the

00:13:19.600 um the way they they took a look at at how these factors affected their health the french consumption

00:13:27.600 of wine is going down when you're in france um they consider wine part of the meal like wine is food

00:13:34.560 there that's not something that exists here because of our prohibition history you know wine is one of

00:13:39.680 the evil alcohol in general is one of the evil parts of society and then like this is where it's all

00:13:45.120 really nuanced and i'm going a little bit all over the place but like when push comes to shove alcohol

00:13:50.320 is not good for you but when you take a look at what's on your plate there's a lot of stuff on your

00:13:54.720 plate that isn't good for you salt fat carbs calories for that matter if you want to go to a very basic

00:14:01.040 level it all comes down to moderation right i think so i think moderation is actually something that's

00:14:07.040 hurting many industries uh you know fast food is another one out there that we're seeing a reduction in

00:14:12.560 in many ways uh you know in the category of people that can afford other food people are making

00:14:18.480 healthier choices uh in that regard well and even better even better choices like we we take a look

00:14:24.160 at uh you know like i said i spent a lot of time focusing on on my cohort just because we were blamed

00:14:28.720 for so many things for the longest time but you know the concept of farm to table in my household is

00:14:36.640 not like a buzzword like it's it's a philosophy um you know i'm not someone who necessarily shops

00:14:42.960 organic but you know living in hamilton and having access to a couple of great farmers markets and you

00:14:49.360 know a couple of great retailers that focus on purchasing from farms direct from ontario you know

00:14:57.040 my elbows were always up in in that matter like i bought local because it feels good to support local

00:15:04.160 farmers and even if it costs a little bit more like in the middle of the winter if you can get

00:15:08.320 your hands on a tomato that was grown hydroponically in a greenhouse in grimsby versus a bunch of

00:15:15.200 tomatoes that were shipped in from mexico and if all you can afford is mexican tomatoes i understand

00:15:20.640 fantastic make the choice like like by all means it's a wonderful world that we live in with globalization

00:15:26.000 that we can get whatever we want to eat whenever at whatever time of year but when you can taste that

00:15:31.760 ontario greenhouse tomato in january february it tastes better and monday monday to sunday like this

00:15:39.040 is not a weekend thing for me i want my food to taste good monday like every day of the week hey

00:15:43.600 andre you know you gotta be thinking here is there anything you think that the government could be

00:15:48.160 doing provincially maybe also federally to help support uh more of a global market for wine makers like

00:15:55.520 yourself that are sort of craft wine makers that have made it into the commercial uh side of things the

00:16:00.800 the consumer side of things is there something more that could be done to promote within ontario

00:16:07.520 uh for wine makers spirit makers uh and and even craft breweries is there something that we're leaving

00:16:13.120 on the table yeah well mr mr carney said it from the onset it's an election promise that he still

00:16:18.080 hasn't come through with and that's getting rid of inter-provincial trade barriers i've been fortunate

00:16:22.320 enough with my little 400 case a year wine company to export and yes that's right it's considered an

00:16:27.760 export like to another when it goes to another province when it goes to another province i've

00:16:31.280 exported to skatchewan bc and prince edward island and what happens when my case of wine leaves my

00:16:39.200 warehouse it gets taxed by the lcbo and when it enters the new province where it arrives it gets

00:16:45.440 taxed by their local liquor board as well and you know i've said before like alcohol is not a healthy

00:16:52.000 thing alcohol is a drug it needs to be regulated it needs to be taxed it pays for our health care

00:16:56.480 i am not whining about the level of taxation that i'm paying but it is hard to compete when something

00:17:04.240 gets taxed twice while it's staying in the country so you know maybe not only that but you're paying

00:17:10.080 tax on on so many things along the way in the process of actually manufacturing uh you know even

00:17:16.000 even growing i would imagine there's uh you know the purchase of grapes all of everything is taxed along

00:17:21.840 the way uh to have an additional tax within our own countries that's a tough one to swallow well listen

00:17:27.280 my wholesale price on a bottle of rose and this is being completely transparent to everyone listening

00:17:32.560 is about 14 14.50 and that's with grapes uh cost of bottle and that includes a tiny bit for me and my

00:17:42.000 my three colleagues that run it like it doesn't pay it doesn't pay most of my bills or frankly any of my

00:17:46.480 bills we keep the money in the company uh but that's neither here nor there we retail that bottle for

00:17:51.920 22 so that's where it's a fine margin when we're doing locally but when we sell it wholesale to say

00:17:59.920 the bc liquor board they mark it up uh i believe it's between 80 and 100 percent so when my bottle hits

00:18:07.360 the shelf of the bc market it becomes a 45 bottle of rose and you know if we really are trying to support

00:18:14.880 the local industry we need to find a better model for fair taxation for the local producers

00:18:19.600 uh because frankly it's cheaper to manufacture a bottle of wine in another country even at a small

00:18:24.080 scale even at an ultra premium level and it's it's just making it next to impossible to be able to

00:18:28.960 compete um what about export to uh to the us and other markets are there uh i mean certainly with the

00:18:36.160 us at the moment we have uh tension and and issues there but generally speaking when you're exporting

00:18:43.520 to other countries are there challenges that we could overcome here at home it all comes down to

00:18:48.960 taxation right like the fact the fact that the the alcohol laws still are prohibition era laws um

00:18:56.800 you know we're dealing with hundred year old laws we're dealing with hundred year old levels

00:19:00.480 of taxation it does it does make it a challenge i know we have seen a lot of ontario wineries have

00:19:05.040 quite a bit of success um exporting to countries in europe i know the uk has been developed as a very good

00:19:10.560 market um and that's one of those things where it's a dollar and cents issues like even with the

00:19:15.520 level of taxes thanks to the exchange and just the cost of living in the uk you know a great bottle

00:19:20.720 of ontario wine becoming 35 40 50 pounds a bottle is in line with what else you can get in that market

00:19:28.400 so it's just it it's incredibly challenging to be competitive in foreign markets and when i'm saying

00:19:36.800 for and i'm also including other provinces um just because of the amount of taxes that end up on that

00:19:42.400 bottle i saw an event uh taking place uh it was a couple of years ago now at canada house in london

00:19:49.600 and uh the the event was uh showcasing wines and spirits from across canada and uh there were some

00:19:56.880 great reviews i recall that uh more than anything but the one thing that i did note was that uh price

00:20:02.560 competitiveness was uh almost the headline uh from everybody who who wrote or or responded to this

00:20:11.440 and that was because you know they're the the whole focus was these are great products these are great

00:20:16.480 wines and spirits but to get them into this country at a competitive price and uh you know you know up

00:20:23.520 against this other brand from france and this other brand from germany and uh it just seemed like an

00:20:30.080 impossible market to meet i mean i can't add anything to that beyond the fact that like the the

00:20:38.160 producers are jumping up and down trying very hard to shine the spotlight on it but the other thing to

00:20:44.240 keep in mind too is i think i think a lot of people think about alcohol and like this is also the global

00:20:50.160 shift with how people are are drinking is like once upon a time you know your your liquor cabinet had

00:20:58.320 just products from large distillers and i don't want to name any to throw them under the bus but

00:21:03.760 you're dealing with you're right but you're dealing with large corporations that provide union jobs and

00:21:09.040 make a lot of money for their shareholders but like when you're talking about about craft wine and even

00:21:14.560 craft spirits to a certain extent like my company is is four guys like we're that's it we're four guys

00:21:19.680 who run the business and then you know whoever we contract our workout to whether they bottle for us or

00:21:25.360 sell us or our suppliers like these are small businesses they're mom and pop shops they're

00:21:32.720 they're three four four scrappy guys from ontario just trying to make their dream of making wine come

00:21:38.000 true we're not we're not a unique story how do you guys do that you got you got two of you loading the

00:21:43.520 grapes uh into the vat and two of you stomping the grapes is that uh switch it up fortunately fortunately

00:21:51.040 mike um there are machines that were able to rent that take care of more of the the dirty work for

00:21:56.800 us but the the structure of the company is two of our partners are are competent winemakers and the

00:22:01.840 other two of us take care of the selling of it it's uh okay it's a nice arrangement but i can see that uh

00:22:08.080 if we want craft uh product out there in the market we do need to take care of our own i can see

00:22:13.440 that that's where i think elbows up becomes most important when it's four guys trying to make great

00:22:18.480 product that you couldn't get anywhere else in the world uh by the way if you don't mind sharing with

00:22:23.040 us what's the uh what's the wine what's the name uh the name of the company is the 80x wine company

00:22:28.000 80x wine.ca is our website uh we called it 80x because all the business partners are born in the

00:22:34.000 1980s and the year of the company yeah the year we founded the company um the new york post was blaming

00:22:40.880 millennials for the demise of the wine industry much like uh people are doing now so we decided to take

00:22:45.440 ownership of it and uh pretty much exactly like i predicted when we founded the company um you know

00:22:51.680 our generation is drinking less we're drinking better so you know though i know what i want to

00:22:56.240 company is producing as high a quality wine as we can as economically as possible this leads me to

00:23:02.560 another question i've been dying to ask you for some time uh even even just away from the show

00:23:07.040 you know uh mark walberg's got his own uh tequila now azul uh uh casa azul uh you've got uh george

00:23:13.680 clooney with his by the stop mixing me up with george george clooney people uh he's got his own um

00:23:20.320 uh tequila i believe uh what's that uh anyway uh uh i i think uh a bunch of uh comedians have their own

00:23:29.040 uh sports players there's everybody everybody's got their name on a bottle these days so how do you

00:23:34.160 feel about that and and and what's the product like by and large is there is there any sort of like oh

00:23:38.960 if it's got somebody famous on the bottle you're gonna want to take a pass or is this pretty good

00:23:43.840 product i mean it's it's pure marketing and and you have to you have to hedge your bets on who the

00:23:50.320 target market is and what the product is and uh it is it is a minefield right you know like for example

00:23:56.640 like the the wine brand 19 crimes um they did a partnership with snoop dog and with martha stewart

00:24:02.960 um the martha stewart chardonnay is if you really like oaky chardonnay not terrible and not too

00:24:11.280 expensive and um as someone who loves to cook and spend time in the kitchen uh martha stewart is my

00:24:17.680 favorite felon i'm a big fan of her the big fan she's a she's a cool felon yeah i also just think

00:24:23.040 it's cool how she's just kind of taking ownership of like what's going on um but the same company came

00:24:27.440 up with a snoop dog red that was like loaded with sugar crazy high in alcohol and you know it's one

00:24:34.000 of those things too where you know as a child of the the 90s it's just like how hard is it to

00:24:40.160 to you know if you own a gin company do a gin and juice collab with snoop dog and print money as

00:24:47.120 opposed to slapping his face on a wine bottle but on the on the other side of the point on the other

00:24:52.320 side of the coin you know um there's a small winery in new zealand called in vivo and they did a

00:24:58.880 partnership with sarah jessica parker you know i enjoyed sex in the city i'm not like the core

00:25:04.080 demographic of that but you know she's an actress she's actively involved in the assemblage the final

00:25:09.280 blending of that wine and i remember getting the sample sent to me sipping it in my backyard during the

00:25:13.680 summer making some notes being like like holy crap is this good this has way more business um or this

00:25:21.200 is no business being as good as it is with a celebrity name attached on it yeah it's it always

00:25:26.160 makes me suspect to be honest with you but i have heard that uh um george clooney's which

00:25:31.360 george clooney's uh tequila again i gotta look that up i don't i don't know uh it'll come to me while

00:25:37.120 we're doing this but i've heard that that and the mezcal both very good uh casamigos that's it yeah

00:25:45.120 oh casamigos casamigos is very good stuff uh top shelf top shelf tequila i think a little overpriced

00:25:52.560 for what it is but i mean that's the other thing i keep in mind with when i'm i'm shopping brands

00:25:57.040 and i think this is just the inherent millennial snob in me is if i'm overpaying for something to pay

00:26:02.960 for the marketing uh i tend to take a pass and try to find a smaller producer that's doing something

00:26:07.920 on a on a comparable level that's a big change i think also as you point out uh the ability to search

00:26:14.400 out understand uh do the research now get a get chat gpt to give you a a pairing suggestion

00:26:21.920 uh and make you more informed i think is also an opportunity of your generation now every generation

00:26:27.600 but not too much gpt make sure you follow me at andre weinerview on social media platforms because

00:26:32.480 you'll get a you'll get personalized recommendations and i offer uh dialogue that chat gpt cannot

00:26:39.680 i will promise you that's true having known andre for many years the dialogue is brilliant i just

00:26:43.840 want you telling people to to to go to the computer uh to to replace the function of us wine writers

00:26:49.360 here no no i i i don't want to do that no i i i understand and the research uh it takes many hours

00:26:55.840 and and uh it's very enjoyable for you but i will say this andre of all the people i've talked to about

00:27:00.720 wine um you're really super knowledgeable and unsnobby entirely even the fact that you make your own wine

00:27:08.560 which gets great reviews uh it doesn't seem to uh rattle you into becoming a different guy about

00:27:15.680 wine and alcohol you really are looking out for uh the average drinker who who wants to get some good

00:27:21.760 quality product once again toronto life is where you'll find them two guys talking wine is the

00:27:26.320 podcast i would assume that's available everywhere podcasts are everywhere podcasts are available canada's

00:27:31.200 second longest running podcast online i've heard it's the longest running one but you know it's a

00:27:37.760 technicality there that's my opinion uh listen andre i really appreciate this and i hope you join us again

00:27:43.280 uh as we head to spring and uh we start to have a look at the the horizon of what will come out of

00:27:49.440 uh the next growing season here in ontario i wish you and your partners great success with your wine thanks like

True Patriot Love - January 14, 2026

Why Ontario’s Liquor Shelves Are Empty

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