Truth Podcast - Vivek Ramaswamy - Papa John's Recipe for Success in America | The TRUTH Podcast #37

00:00:00.000 The good news is they've spent over $30 million investigating me.

00:00:04.000 My own board.

00:00:05.000 So they're taping you without your knowledge.

00:00:07.000 Unbelievable.

00:00:08.000 The left's ideology lowers the standard of living. 1.00

00:00:11.000 They function like morons. 1.00

00:00:13.000 Don't let anybody hold you back. 1.00

00:00:15.000 Amen.

00:00:16.000 Just do it.

00:00:16.000 Presidential candidate, Vivek Ramaswamy.

00:00:18.000 Vivek Ramaswamy, a Republican running for president.

00:00:20.000 We should not be apologetic to stand up and speak for the truth.

00:00:25.000 Let's talk truth.

00:00:27.000 Welcome to Columbus, Ohio.

00:00:28.000 This is an honor.

00:00:29.000 I'm joined by a guy I've actually looked up to for a long time.

00:00:33.000 I've been seeing you on TV for a lot longer than you've been seeing me on TV. Papa John, the founder of Papa John's, probably the best pizza chain on the planet, who I've enjoyed getting to know from afar.

00:00:47.000 I've been looking forward to this today for a long time, and we're here to have an open and honest conversation.

00:00:53.000 So, welcome to our podcast.

00:00:55.000 Well, you're mighty kind.

00:00:56.000 Thanks for having me, and it's a real honor.

00:00:59.000 So, we're going to get into what I think a lot of people, including me, are really interested in.

00:01:06.000 Deep dive of what happened back in 2018 and what we can learn from it.

00:01:11.000 But we'll get to that in a sec.

00:01:14.000 You're the American Dream Story.

00:01:17.000 I want you to tell your story so other people know about it.

00:01:20.000 How did you grow up and what got you to start what is probably the most successful pizza chain of our lifetime?

00:01:27.000 I'd say our number one key to success was we just had a great team.

00:01:32.000 We were really good at getting the right people on the bus and getting them in the right seat and getting them rolling all in the same direction.

00:01:42.000 And we understood the concept of momentum.

00:01:44.000 Once you have momentum, you want to hold on to it for dear life.

00:01:47.000 We had two fundamental principles early on.

00:01:50.000 Make a great product, superior, authentic Papa John pizza, and take care of your people.

00:01:56.000 Last year I was there in 16 or 17, I think our bonus to our employees was $34 million.

00:02:03.000 Really?

00:02:03.000 So they felt like owners.

00:02:05.000 And you owned 100% of the company?

00:02:09.000 We went public in 93. I had about 90% of the company.

00:02:13.000 Economically and voting?

00:02:14.000 And voting, yeah.

00:02:16.000 Okay, good.

00:02:16.000 We didn't have preferred shares at the time.

00:02:19.000 And then when public, I had about 75%.

00:02:22.000 And then when I got out in...

00:02:26.000 In 2017, 18, I had about a third.

00:02:28.000 Okay.

00:02:29.000 And if we just rewind the clock a little bit before then, how old were you?

00:02:35.000 Tell me your story a little bit.

00:02:36.000 What got you to start Papa John's?

00:02:39.000 What was the inspiration?

00:02:40.000 What brought you to that doorstep?

00:02:42.000 You know, I was kind of an entrepreneur and didn't know it.

00:02:45.000 Yeah.

00:02:46.000 Cut grass, painted gutters, painted shutters, did a litany of things on the side.

00:02:53.000 In Kentucky?

00:02:54.000 In Kentucky, Indiana.

00:02:57.000 It's on the border.

00:02:57.000 It's on the Ohio River, so it's one and the same.

00:02:59.000 Nice.

00:03:00.000 And then drove a forklift, cut right lickers, welded barges at Jeff Boat.

00:03:06.000 And then I got this gig washing dishes at Rocky Sub Pub.

00:03:09.000 I was 15 and I had to have a permission slip from the parents to wash dishes.

00:03:13.000 And I hated washing dishes.

00:03:15.000 And right across from where I washed dishes was where Frank Fondrisi made pizzas.

00:03:19.000 And unless you were a Fondrisi, Joe, John, or Frank Fondrisi, you had to wash dishes.

00:03:24.000 You couldn't make pizzas.

00:03:25.000 And so they finally got it right up in the scene.

00:03:27.000 They blew the doors off of it.

00:03:29.000 And the next thing you know, I graduated from washing dishes to making pizza, so it was a real honor.

00:03:35.000 And at Cutray Liquors, we'd buy a case of beer for $9 and sell it for $9.40, $0.40 gross profit.

00:03:42.000 At Rocky's, we'd sell a pizza for $9 and they have $3 in it.

00:03:47.000 So the economics of pizza early on intrigued me.

00:03:50.000 Plus, I love making pizza.

00:03:52.000 I love making the dough.

00:03:53.000 But you paid attention to those economics early on.

00:03:58.000 You sort of smelled that opportunity, actually.

00:04:00.000 I just thought, how can you make money on 40 cents growth problems?

00:04:03.000 Makes good sense to me, yeah, to ask that question.

00:04:05.000 So you had a knack early on, I got you.

00:04:08.000 Yeah, analytically, I was pretty skillful.

00:04:12.000 But with that being said, let's fast forward to Mick's Lounge, where we're $64,000 in bankruptcy, and we do a lunch special, Mick Burger and a Beer for a Dollar.

00:04:23.000 We're blowing the doors off of it.

00:04:26.000 Across the street is Jerry's Restaurant, which is kind of a dirty Denny's.

00:04:29.000 Charlie Moore owns it.

00:04:31.000 I've destroyed his business at lunch.

00:04:33.000 He comes over and says, John, I need to talk to you.

00:04:35.000 I said, hey, let me get through the lunch rush here.

00:04:38.000 He comes in at 1.30 and says, what's going on?

00:04:42.000 I said, we're doing a McBurger and a beer for a dollar.

00:04:44.000 He said, what's your food cost?

00:04:46.000 Hell, in college they don't teach you food costs.

00:04:48.000 I had no idea.

00:04:49.000 So we looked it up.

00:04:50.000 We had about $1.25, $1.30 in a McBurger and a beer.

00:04:53.000 So we weren't quite as savvy, maybe intuitively, but specificity, probably not as much so.

00:05:01.000 Okay, now you can pick up over time.

00:05:03.000 Yeah, we learned that over time, the food cost and labor cost, yeah.

00:05:06.000 And so you started it when?

00:05:08.000 Well, we were bankrupt in the bar in 83, Labor Day weekend of 83, and then we started the broom closet April 11th of 84, and then built the first Papa John's April 11th of 85, one year to the day.

00:05:22.000 Is that right?

00:05:22.000 Yeah.

00:05:23.000 Yeah.

00:05:23.000 All right.

00:05:23.000 Born in the same year as your daughter and I, I think.

00:05:26.000 Wow.

00:05:29.000 86. I was 85. Yeah.

00:05:31.000 So that's good.

00:05:32.000 And so you got your first one off the ground.

00:05:34.000 Got the first one off the ground.

00:05:36.000 Where was it?

00:05:37.000 Jeffersonville, Indiana.

00:05:38.000 Is that one still open?

00:05:39.000 Yeah.

00:05:40.000 Yeah.

00:05:40.000 Still does well.

00:05:41.000 Yeah, there's over 5,000 of them.

00:05:43.000 I know.

00:05:43.000 Yeah.

00:05:43.000 They're like cow patties.

00:05:44.000 They're all over the place.

00:05:45.000 A bunch where I grew up.

00:05:46.000 Yeah.

00:05:47.000 There you go.

00:05:48.000 But, you know, to answer your question is, I love making pizzas.

00:05:51.000 Mm-hmm.

00:05:52.000 And I was pretty good running the business.

00:05:54.000 And so when I talk to young entrepreneurs, it's just find something you love to do.

00:05:59.000 Find something you're good at it.

00:06:01.000 And as you all know, if you work it to the bone, sooner or later you'll beat the other guy.

00:06:05.000 They'll get complacent.

00:06:06.000 They'll get lazy.

00:06:07.000 They'll get lethargic.

00:06:08.000 And you just come in and you take their market share or you take their business.

00:06:12.000 And that's what you did.

00:06:13.000 That's what we did.

00:06:14.000 So Pizza Hut was probably the big competitor at the time when you took the scene, when you started to expand, or what was the market like?

00:06:20.000 Well, Domino's, Pizza Hut, and Little Caesars all started about in the mid-60s.

00:06:25.000 So they were all, you know, 4,000, 5,000, 6,000 stores.

00:06:29.000 So nobody thought a fourth player could come in a category because, you know, if you take Colitz, Coke, or Pepsi, you know, if you take beers, unless you flank it with an international beer, You know, there's two brands.

00:06:44.000 So it was Domino's and Little Caesars at the time.

00:06:47.000 Caesars had price, $5 a pie.

00:06:50.000 Domino's had speed.

00:06:51.000 They were fast.

00:06:52.000 And pizza had the buffet bar.

00:06:54.000 They were variety.

00:06:55.000 So at the time, 45-50% of the market share was independent pizzerias.

00:07:00.000 So we thought, what if you build a chain out of quality?

00:07:03.000 So we flanked them on the differentiation with quality.

00:07:06.000 Better ingredients, better pizza, Papa John's.

00:07:08.000 There you go.

00:07:09.000 That was actually a great slogan.

00:07:10.000 It stuck with me.

00:07:11.000 There's a story behind that too, but yeah.

00:07:13.000 Yeah.

00:07:13.000 And what were specifically the elements of quality that made the better pizza?

00:07:20.000 Everything in pizza that's better costs more money.

00:07:23.000 Everybody wants to own quality, but quality always takes time and costs more money.

00:07:27.000 So in our business, the protein in the flour, the gluten is the more protein, the more money, but the better the pizza.

00:07:36.000 Fresh packed sauce versus paste, twice the money, but much better on the flavor profiles.

00:07:44.000 Real mozzarella cheese, real meats, real veggies, the right box.

00:07:48.000 Seems like the sauce is also different.

00:07:50.000 Yeah, the sauce is way different.

00:07:51.000 The sauce is double.

00:07:52.000 You can buy a bag-in-the-box sauce for $10 a case, and you can buy a fresh pack for $22.

00:07:59.000 So it's substantially more to own up to the authenticity of better ingredients, better pizza, but we think people can tell the difference.

00:08:07.000 And how much did that eat into the margin that you were initially thinking?

00:08:10.000 Because that was part of the appeal, but then if you're playing quality...

00:08:13.000 How did you think about that trade-off for yourself?

00:08:15.000 Well, I think, you know, I'm conservative by nature.

00:08:18.000 And like I would build these distribution centers with dough machines, mixers, etc.

00:08:23.000 In my mind, I would think, okay, one day my grandson is going to see this warehouse.

00:08:29.000 He's going to see this manufacturing.

00:08:31.000 And I want him to get my mind on how I build it because I want him to be proud 10, 20, 30 years down the road that When I did something, it lasted.

00:08:40.000 And so the mindset was always longevity.

00:08:44.000 And I think that's where public companies get in trouble is they're chasing those quarterly earnings because they're chasing that stock price because they have options.

00:08:51.000 And that's the wrong mindset.

00:08:53.000 And they may be long gone as executives by the time they pay the price for that.

00:08:58.000 I think 80% of the companies that were Fortune 500 25 years ago are debunk.

00:09:06.000 They're on their business.

00:09:08.000 80%.

00:09:09.000 GE is not bunk, but it's a hollowed-out husk of what it was because of the same mentality.

00:09:15.000 If you have a normal company, a normal corporation with a normal board that's just doing business as normal, you're set up for failure long-term.

00:09:25.000 It's the wrong mindset.

00:09:27.000 Say what you mean by normal.

00:09:28.000 There.

00:09:30.000 I know what I think and I agree with you, but people are going to think on the consensus.

00:09:34.000 People are going to just, you know, do what's right for them in the short run.

00:09:37.000 The concept is, okay, if the average person is $35,000 in debt on credit cards and the average person is $40,000 behind on student debt, and we can talk about diet, we can talk about weight, You don't want to be normal.

00:09:51.000 That's right.

00:09:52.000 You want to be abnormal. 0.98

00:09:53.000 So a normal corporate board that has so-called professional board members, which usually are lifetimers, that are just normal corporate governance, if you really track it, it's a loser. 0.95

00:10:07.000 That speaks to me.

00:10:08.000 It's funny, even in this campaign, there's a trend in this country now, even in our party, say, let's just, we want normalcy.

00:10:18.000 Yeah.

00:10:19.000 I know what they mean, right?

00:10:20.000 Because our culture has gone in such a direction.

00:10:22.000 One of the things I often say in this campaign is, as Americans, we don't aspire to normalcy.

00:10:26.000 We aspire to excellence.

00:10:29.000 And I think, whether in business or in politics, that is an interesting choice to face, right?

00:10:34.000 If you're in disarray, normalcy sounds good, but...

00:10:37.000 We should aspire to more than that.

00:10:38.000 Let me ask you, did your grandson ever...

00:10:40.000 You have grandsons?

00:10:41.000 Yes, two.

00:10:41.000 And have they ever seen the shop you imagined?

00:10:46.000 Well, one's eight.

00:10:47.000 Okay.

00:10:48.000 And then one's four and a half.

00:10:50.000 Okay.

00:10:50.000 So they're not quite up for it yet.

00:10:51.000 Not yet.

00:10:52.000 Not yet.

00:10:52.000 Maybe in a few years.

00:10:54.000 But they've been in the pizza shops.

00:10:55.000 They've seen us make pizzas, yeah.

00:10:57.000 Yeah.

00:10:58.000 It's interesting to use the word...

00:10:59.000 First, I was wondering where you're going with that.

00:11:01.000 You said, I'm a conservative.

00:11:03.000 And then you tell me about your philosophy of thinking for longevity, but...

00:11:08.000 It's even in the heart of the word, conserve, right?

00:11:10.000 You wish to conserve the thing you created.

00:11:14.000 The Papa John story debunks the left's ideology on every front, every single front.

00:11:19.000 You know, no assistance, self-made, product quality, took care of our people, did it by the book, did it for the long haul.

00:11:26.000 We debunked that.

00:11:29.000 Would you say you were right-leaning much of the time?

00:11:32.000 Well, we built the company on conservative principles.

00:11:35.000 Not politically, but just they work.

00:11:38.000 Classical cultural principles.

00:11:38.000 I mean, the left's ideology lowers the standard of living.

00:11:41.000 Of course it does.

00:11:42.000 For everybody.

00:11:43.000 I mean, the quality of life goes down when you buy into that ideology.

00:11:46.000 Look at the agencies, as you call the fourth arm of government. 1.00

00:11:51.000 I mean, they function like morons. 1.00

00:11:54.000 They do. 1.00

00:11:55.000 It's anti-emeridocratic. 0.96

00:11:58.000 CDC, I mean, people are going to be dying from the side effects of COVID because they weren't open and honest about the side effects and the potency of the drug.

00:12:06.000 FDA, the food supply is poisonous.

00:12:09.000 It's going to make you sick.

00:12:10.000 So, you know, when the left gets a hold of things, and so we built Papa John's on conservative principles and stayed basically out of politics.

00:12:17.000 We did a couple fundraisers and this, that, and the other.

00:12:19.000 But it doesn't matter.

00:12:20.000 If you do not buy into the left's ideology, and if you're not one of their cronies, they're going to find a way.

00:12:27.000 They will come for you.

00:12:28.000 And it's demonic.

00:12:30.000 It's satanic.

00:12:32.000 And that's the problem.

00:12:33.000 A regular American, and I'm talking about the Democrat elite here, most Americans that are Democrat, they're like you and I. They want the best for their family.

00:12:42.000 They wake up.

00:12:43.000 They try to make a living.

00:12:44.000 They want a bright future.

00:12:46.000 They don't know the lengths of the elite left.

00:12:51.000 No regard for humanity.

00:12:53.000 No regard for the betterment of our fellow man.

00:12:59.000 I mean, the border alone.

00:13:01.000 The suffering.

00:13:02.000 The child trafficking.

00:13:04.000 They're doing this right in front of us.

00:13:06.000 It's just a total regard for us and humanity as people, as loving people.

00:13:14.000 And so we at Papa John's were on the TV over, you know, eight minutes.

00:13:21.000 We're doing $4 billion a year.

00:13:23.000 We're making $200 million in EBITDA. And we're just a huge target because we didn't...

00:13:27.000 When was this?

00:13:28.000 This is by when were you doing $4 billion a year?

00:13:30.000 We're doing $4 billion by 16, 17. Really?

00:13:32.000 Yeah.

00:13:33.000 Okay.

00:13:33.000 Wow.

00:13:34.000 Wow.

00:13:35.000 Yeah, it's a big company.

00:13:36.000 Over 5,000 stores.

00:13:38.000 EBITDA was $200 million a year.

00:13:40.000 Pre-tax profit was $165 million a year.

00:13:42.000 So we're making $3 million a week, $4 million a week.

00:13:45.000 It was a good ride.

00:13:47.000 Yeah, and trades at what?

00:13:49.000 10 times?

00:13:50.000 I took over in 2009. I came back in 2009. I've left three times.

00:13:55.000 All three times, they mess it up.

00:13:59.000 Yeah, it's funny.

00:14:00.000 Tell me about that.

00:14:01.000 That's kind of interesting.

00:14:02.000 We'll take 2009. October of 2008, beginning of 2009, the stock was $680 a share.

00:14:07.000 When I got off the bus, third quarter of 2016, it was $88.

00:14:13.000 So the company...

00:14:14.000 Why did you...

00:14:15.000 You just decided to move on to other pursuits in life?

00:14:18.000 I mean, most people make hundreds of millions to try to make hundreds of millions or more.

00:14:22.000 Yeah.

00:14:22.000 I saw your network.

00:14:24.000 And they're somewhat at parity.

00:14:26.000 And the question is, I made hundreds of millions so I could enjoy that little girl over there. 0.85

00:14:32.000 And my family, my friends.

00:14:35.000 I have aircraft.

00:14:36.000 I don't have a yacht because I think it's a waste of money.

00:14:39.000 I agree with you.

00:14:40.000 But I enjoy my life, and we'll tell you the irony here.

00:14:45.000 I'll talk out of both sides of my mouth.

00:14:47.000 When I was 21, I knew I wanted to make pizzas, and I knew I wanted to run the business.

00:14:51.000 Here I am, 61. I don't know.

00:14:54.000 I'm not exactly sure what I'm going to do next.

00:14:56.000 I have four criteria.

00:14:57.000 Okay.

00:14:58.000 What are they?

00:14:58.000 I'm actually interested in this.

00:15:01.000 It's got to be authentic.

00:15:03.000 Yep.

00:15:03.000 It's got to be truthful.

00:15:04.000 It's got to be real.

00:15:06.000 And if it's not substantive and stands the litmus test of truth, I don't want anything to do with it.

00:15:15.000 Two is it's got a better humanity.

00:15:17.000 I don't really want to do anything with alcohol or tobacco or the processed food bothers me a little bit, you know, a lot of it.

00:15:27.000 I think they're for sale. 0.99

00:15:29.000 I think they're all prostitutes. 1.00

00:15:31.000 All the government is prostitutes. 1.00

00:15:32.000 No, but USDA is pretty bad. 1.00

00:15:34.000 You would know it.

00:15:35.000 So better is humanity, authentic.

00:15:38.000 Three is it's got to be scalable.

00:15:40.000 Okay.

00:15:41.000 You're not running for the president of the Moose Club.

00:15:43.000 You want to be president of the United States.

00:15:45.000 You want to be...

00:15:46.000 Life is short.

00:15:47.000 We have an impact.

00:15:47.000 I love that.

00:15:48.000 And the fourth is you don't want to have to feed it.

00:15:49.000 And the reason I say that, it's not because profit, I think profit's a very good word.

00:15:54.000 It's not that profit's the main thing.

00:15:56.000 But when I get involved with something, I always make it better.

00:16:01.000 Well, if I'm making profits, I don't have the resources to make it better.

00:16:03.000 Because if I'm doing something, I don't care if it's making whatever it's making.

00:16:07.000 I'm going to do that plus twofold.

00:16:09.000 Don't have to feed it means it generates profit.

00:16:11.000 It generates cash flow.

00:16:12.000 Absolutely.

00:16:13.000 And I haven't decided what that is.

00:16:15.000 Spiritually, the work I do says be patient but opportunistic.

00:16:19.000 So I'm an entrepreneur.

00:16:21.000 I'm allergic to patients.

00:16:22.000 I mean, I've got the attention span of a strobe light.

00:16:26.000 So I'm sitting here for three years waiting for it.

00:16:30.000 I mean, you did five drugs.

00:16:32.000 You did the biology thing.

00:16:34.000 And then now all of a sudden you're running for president.

00:16:36.000 So you kind of jumped into the next gig.

00:16:38.000 And then you follow it.

00:16:39.000 Say what?

00:16:40.000 You have an itch, you follow it, is my view.

00:16:41.000 You have passion, you follow your passion.

00:16:43.000 And I'm sure it will strike for you, too.

00:16:45.000 So anyway, you thought you were graduating from Papa John's pizza chain many times, and then you come back and you had to save the thing and bring it back.

00:16:55.000 So you took it from $6 a share to, what did you say?

00:16:58.000 $6.80 to $88.

00:16:59.000 To $88.

00:17:01.000 I mean, 40 million shares, you're talking about a company that's worth...

00:17:06.000 Oh my gosh, $300 million that's worth $3.5 billion.

00:17:11.000 So that was about $3 billion market cap when you had $16, $17 when you left.

00:17:16.000 I think it was $3, $2 or $3, $4.

00:17:18.000 And I had a third of that.

00:17:19.000 So it was a good ride.

00:17:20.000 Yeah, that's great.

00:17:21.000 And you know, if I went back in, which I'm a little worried about.

00:17:24.000 They might pull you back.

00:17:25.000 Well, I'm not sure I could do it with this labor market.

00:17:29.000 You know, when people are not going to show up.

00:17:31.000 You know, it's interesting, right?

00:17:32.000 This is...

00:17:33.000 So this is one of the things I'm very focused on as president.

00:17:38.000 But I think if somebody's able to crack the code of how to actually do this now, boy, is the payout going to be big.

00:17:45.000 Because we have more, as you well know, we have way more jobs than we have people.

00:17:50.000 So actually, this gets to the heart of...

00:17:53.000 I'm not doing this right now, but it's an opportunity that I see hiding in plain sight, right?

00:17:58.000 Imagine if you were able to create a workplace that defected from the orthodoxies that leave other people uninspired to say that this is a worthy mission, this is why we're here.

00:18:09.000 And even if you're able to fill the open roles a little bit more than your competitors, that's the rate limiter to success right now.

00:18:17.000 I don't know if you can go back to Papa John's and actually bring that same mentality back.

00:18:22.000 I would imagine that's a big competitive advantage.

00:18:24.000 Well, you know what you got to do is you got to find somebody.

00:18:26.000 Even on the darkest night, there's always one star out there that you can see.

00:18:29.000 So there's a Chick-fil-A or a Texas Roadhouse.

00:18:32.000 I was down in Nashville at the Gaylord, and it was unbelievable the job that the hotel did.

00:18:38.000 So there are a few people out there that have got this figured out.

00:18:40.000 But yeah, I think you have a competitive advantage.

00:18:43.000 If you can motivate the workforce, if you can get them to show up and then show up on time.

00:18:49.000 But that's, I mean, the payoff would be huge.

00:18:53.000 And that's all about culture.

00:18:55.000 And, you know, when I was reading your book on the woke and how some of the employees were giving you pushback on BLM and Antigua, I found that fascinating.

00:19:05.000 And I also found fascinating that you...

00:19:08.000 You like taking that part of that corporate bailout as far as the liability, limit the liability.

00:19:14.000 And if you're going to play the woke game, then you're going to have...

00:19:17.000 You pay the price for it.

00:19:18.000 And if you want to, you can, but you pay the price.

00:19:20.000 You read the book.

00:19:21.000 I think it's pretty ingenious.

00:19:22.000 Very few people, like people read the first chapter, that part gets a little bit wonky.

00:19:27.000 I'm glad you read it.

00:19:28.000 Yeah, the employees, I never did get to the part where, you know, what do you do about this Black Lives Matter? 1.00

00:19:34.000 Yeah.

00:19:35.000 That's obviously tearing up cities and being destructive with employees that want you to support that.

00:19:40.000 I love that.

00:19:41.000 I want to get you a signed book before we're out of here.

00:19:43.000 That's good.

00:19:44.000 So you lead this, what, $6.88, $88 a share.

00:19:49.000 We're talking 2016 now.

00:19:52.000 2017, 2018 was when the big, you know, sort of famous controversy came up.

00:19:57.000 July of 18. July of 18. So walk me into the lead up to that.

00:20:03.000 And I gotta admit, it's still hazy in my head.

00:20:06.000 It probably is hazy in a lot of people's heads who are watching this, so it'd be helpful, right?

00:20:09.000 Let's talk about 2017, 2018. I'm retiring in 16, informally.

00:20:14.000 I'm off, I resign.

00:20:16.000 As CEO. You formally resigned as CEO in 17. And we have a management team that was grooming pretty good, but things were slipping.

00:20:23.000 And things weren't going well.

00:20:25.000 The stock had gone from 88 down to, say, 68, or what it is.

00:20:29.000 After you stepped down in 16. Yeah, the quality definitely was going backwards.

00:20:33.000 The culture, we were the best place to work in Kentucky.

00:20:35.000 So the business was not unhealthy, but it wasn't doing what it was doing.

00:20:40.000 And so I was going to have to make some changes with the board.

00:20:43.000 I had two or three board members that really needed to go.

00:20:46.000 And then I had the CEO and a few other folks.

00:20:49.000 These were independent board members that were just kind of dead weight hanging around.

00:20:52.000 Didn't understand the business and just, you know, really didn't get what Papa John's was about.

00:21:03.000 You know, this is all about where the rubber meets the road, the product. 1.00

00:21:07.000 It's the food, stupid. 1.00

00:21:08.000 And, you know, if you don't have your mindset on, the store manager in that store has to be unbelievably talented. 1.00

00:21:16.000 We, the 5,000 stores, we had 600 that were corporate stores.

00:21:19.000 We didn't have a limit on expertise or knowledge or institutional knowledge or capital.

00:21:24.000 Our limitation was, you know, talent.

00:21:28.000 And so we only had 600, 650 stores because that's all we could manage.

00:21:32.000 But to be a manager at a Papa John's, you've got to have interpersonal skills with people, P&L responsibility, motivation, hard work, the fundamentals of making the pizza.

00:21:44.000 It's a very difficult job.

00:21:46.000 I mean, Even for you and I, now you would excel at this and you would grasp it quick, but it's not like for somebody that's the faint of heart.

00:21:56.000 And so my focus has always been not on 5,000 stores, but one store 5,000 times.

00:22:02.000 What do I mean by that?

00:22:03.000 Okay, what are the product quality...

00:22:06.000 What are the service times and what's that manager making?

00:22:09.000 When I left in 16, the average manager was making $84,000 a year.

00:22:15.000 42 in salary, 42 in bonus.

00:22:17.000 That means half are making 60 and half are making 100. Now remember, this is seven years ago.

00:22:21.000 You don't lose anybody when they feel like owners.

00:22:24.000 And then you've got, of course, the upward mobility with promotions.

00:22:27.000 Yeah.

00:22:28.000 It was just a different mindset.

00:22:31.000 I liked our nice steady growth and they were always looking for flavor of the month or something knee-jerk or you know is there something new on the I mean all these side things that had really nothing to do with the business and that's the one thing I found so insightful about your book is let's just make widgets.

00:22:50.000 Just make soft drinks if you're Coke.

00:22:52.000 Just provide entertainment and experience if you're Disney.

00:22:54.000 Stay as far away from all this other stuff Because it's the distraction from doing what you really need to be doing, which is the customer experience.

00:23:03.000 We call it demonstrable value, which is what the consumer perceives through its five senses.

00:23:08.000 And if you got that piece right, demonstrable value, sooner or later you'll have perceived value.

00:23:13.000 I mean, Chick-fil-A had demonstrable value way before they had perceived value.

00:23:17.000 And then once you get high DV, demonstrable value, high PV, then you can raise the price.

00:23:22.000 You have a premium brand.

00:23:25.000 Very interesting.

00:23:26.000 I like that mentality.

00:23:28.000 I kind of want to go back because this is just interesting to me on a lot of levels.

00:23:33.000 I mean, I've been in corporate America.

00:23:35.000 I understand how companies, you know, the company I founded is a, you know, it's a multi-billion dollar, nine billion dollar public company now.

00:23:42.000 And I understand the dynamics.

00:23:43.000 It had subsidiaries, spinoffs.

00:23:46.000 And then also in the government, I talk often about the existence of the managerial class.

00:23:51.000 And the managerial class doesn't just exist in the government.

00:23:54.000 It exists in universities.

00:23:56.000 It exists in corporate America and boardrooms.

00:24:00.000 Can you tell me a little bit more about what the dynamic was heading into the controversy?

00:24:06.000 I didn't realize you were actually making changes to the board and the management team.

00:24:09.000 That kind of affects the way that I think I'm seeing this story.

00:24:12.000 When you say they didn't understand the business, I mean, I'll just be honest with you.

00:24:16.000 One of the things that irritates the heck out of me is people who are professional board sitters.

00:24:20.000 They call it, do you sit on a board?

00:24:23.000 And it's such an interesting word to use because it does seem about right.

00:24:27.000 People sit around but aren't particularly...

00:24:31.000 they expect to show up at four meetings a year, clip a little paycheck, put it out, you know, join the local country club and talk about which boards they're on.

00:24:38.000 There's something about public company board culture that it can be done really well, but the normal way that it's done certainly irritates the heck out of me.

00:24:48.000 But I don't know what your experience was.

00:24:50.000 So I kind of want to hear it in a little bit more detail, if you don't mind.

00:24:53.000 Well, as much as we tried to educate the board on the business, They just didn't understand it.

00:25:02.000 They had no concept of what it's like to work a 14-hour...

00:25:05.000 So you're the CEO, though, and you own controlling shares of the company.

00:25:08.000 So we being controlling the board means...

00:25:11.000 You're the CEO, you're the controlling owner, but you've got all these other managerial nonsense hanging around, and then you're wasting your time.

00:25:19.000 Instead of focusing on making one store 5,000 times, you can make it one store 6,000 times.

00:25:23.000 You're here educating these people.

00:25:25.000 Well, you try to educate, and you write a book, and you show brick by brick why it went from $6 a share to $88.

00:25:32.000 It's book.

00:25:34.000 Page by page, brick by brick on how you fix it, and how you keep it fixed, and how you, you know, as they say, don't let the cow get back in the ditch.

00:25:44.000 And, but, you know, you have, if you're a public company, you have to have a professional board.

00:25:49.000 It's all optics.

00:25:50.000 And we, in our board, we had, we actually, out of our six board members, had three women.

00:25:55.000 So we were, and one was Latino.

00:25:57.000 So we covered all, you got to cover these.

00:25:59.000 I mean, I could care less.

00:26:00.000 Well, you know, you get attacked.

00:26:03.000 And to answer your question is, like right now you're under attack.

00:26:09.000 You feel it. 1.00

00:26:09.000 You're not stupid. 1.00

00:26:11.000 I knew in 16 and 17 when I was getting ready to change management and change that board, I knew I could feel something was going to happen. 0.88

00:26:20.000 And I remember driving around at UofL and I heard something on the radio.

00:26:23.000 I'm like, well, that's not what I, you know, that's not really what happened.

00:26:25.000 But it kind of didn't faze me.

00:26:26.000 And I thought, they're going to attack me, but it doesn't matter because they're going to have to make something up.

00:26:31.000 I really thought that way.

00:26:33.000 Okay, well, you know, if they're going to, if they're going to have to make it up.

00:26:38.000 And I thought, well, they can't really make it up.

00:26:40.000 Well, guess what?

00:26:41.000 They made it up.

00:26:43.000 I mean, I saw it coming.

00:26:44.000 I felt it coming.

00:26:45.000 So what was it exactly?

00:26:46.000 Now, let's refresh, if you don't mind.

00:26:49.000 Okay, I thought doing the deal with Mitt Romney, some of the things we did politically.

00:26:56.000 I was involved with Charles Koch and AFP. I thought it was the DNC. I thought that was where, in the liberal media, I thought we're all, I mean, we'd give $18 million to Purdue for a business school, and they'd write a negative article in my hometown.

00:27:12.000 I said, my gosh, I just gave them $18 million to talk about it.

00:27:15.000 In the state of Indiana.

00:27:16.000 Yeah, in the state of Indiana, and the local paper wrote a negative.

00:27:20.000 I mean, it's pretty blatant that they're kind of against you even when you're trying to do good.

00:27:26.000 I've learned slowly how this works, yeah.

00:27:30.000 The hard way.

00:27:30.000 And that's the thing we'll talk about Trump later is that the institutional knowledge that guy has by having to go through, because he went into the office and played nice.

00:27:38.000 He let Hillary off and he didn't, you know, he's not going to, you know, he's got institutional knowledge.

00:27:43.000 But anyway, back to the ranch here.

00:27:46.000 So I knew something was going to happen.

00:27:49.000 I did not know that the board, when we put in the CEO that was going to hire an agency, that actually set me up.

00:27:57.000 I mean, that's pretty...

00:27:59.000 An agency, like a hiring agency.

00:28:00.000 An agency to work on the PR. Whoa!

00:28:03.000 Oh, this gets...

00:28:05.000 Wait, wait, wait.

00:28:05.000 You've got to get into details with me.

00:28:07.000 So this is real drama here.

00:28:09.000 Oh, so you're looking to make changes on the board.

00:28:12.000 Yeah.

00:28:12.000 And then who on the board hires?

00:28:14.000 You've got to go a little walk me through this here.

00:28:15.000 Well, the CEO was groomed to be hired.

00:28:17.000 The CEO hires an agency.

00:28:20.000 The new CEO. You're still chairman of the board.

00:28:22.000 I'm still chairman of the board.

00:28:24.000 Still chairman of the board.

00:28:24.000 So the new CEO hires an agency.

00:28:27.000 What agency?

00:28:28.000 Laundry service.

00:28:29.000 That's what it's called?

00:28:30.000 Yes.

00:28:30.000 Casey Washington.

00:28:31.000 Is it called laundry service?

00:28:32.000 Laundry service.

00:28:32.000 Oh, my God.

00:28:33.000 It's Casey Washington.

00:28:34.000 Who wants to run for governor?

00:28:36.000 Yeah.

00:28:37.000 Okay.

00:28:38.000 So I didn't follow any of this.

00:28:40.000 Casey Wasserman's best friend is Roger Goodell.

00:28:45.000 Roger Goodell's communications guy is Joe Lockhart.

00:28:50.000 Joe Lockhart works for Obama and Clinton.

00:28:54.000 Nice.

00:28:54.000 The whole same mafia.

00:28:55.000 It's the whole same mafia.

00:28:57.000 To say, hey, let's get this ad agency.

00:28:59.000 Not to think about great ads for how we can ramp up our market share on pizza, which might be an interesting thing for an ad agency to think about.

00:29:05.000 Not that.

00:29:07.000 But to think about how to sync you.

00:29:11.000 They came aboard for good ads.

00:29:13.000 They produced not so good ads.

00:29:15.000 They were assigned to help perpetuate my reputation and to build a back.

00:29:23.000 And so that was the goal.

00:29:25.000 That was their job was to clear up the comments I made on the NFL conference call that stirred up all the controversy.

00:29:32.000 The press was, Snodder says he's against kneeling.

00:29:36.000 Snodder says he's against the players.

00:29:39.000 I didn't say anything like that.

00:29:40.000 I said it needs to be solved to the owner's and player's satisfaction, and that's Goodell's job.

00:29:45.000 That's the transcript.

00:29:47.000 So that got me...

00:29:48.000 So when was that?

00:29:49.000 It was in 17?

00:29:50.000 That was September...

00:29:51.000 No, that was November 1st of 17. November 1st of 17. And just so people refresh, because I know it's impressed in your brain, but people's memories are so short, including mine...

00:30:02.000 So that's what happened is you made a comment when the players are kneeling during the national anthem.

00:30:07.000 You said what?

00:30:09.000 No, I didn't say anything about kneeling, players kneeling.

00:30:12.000 All I said was our sales are down 20% because people are put off by the NFL. Oh, is it really in Papa John's?

00:30:19.000 Okay.

00:30:20.000 I'm saying, and I said...

00:30:21.000 Because you guys sponsor them.

00:30:22.000 Sponsored them.

00:30:22.000 That was 35% of our spend.

00:30:24.000 40% of our spend was on NFL. Okay, so you got 40% of your spend.

00:30:28.000 I told you, you gotta walk me through this.

00:30:29.000 It's down 20% in viewers.

00:30:33.000 All right.

00:30:34.000 And franchisees who are small business owners are bleeding.

00:30:37.000 So my comment is this needs to be resolved to the owners and players' satisfaction.

00:30:44.000 Roger Goodell is not doing his job.

00:30:46.000 That's all I said.

00:30:47.000 They blew that into kneeling.

00:30:49.000 That's what I'm saying, the left.

00:30:50.000 Oh, I see.

00:30:51.000 So Papa John's did nothing to correct the record, which is basically malpractice, PR. Self-sabotage.

00:30:59.000 Self-sabotage.

00:31:00.000 So we're fighting that January and February.

00:31:02.000 Business is going down.

00:31:04.000 So you think it did have a negative impact on the business then?

00:31:09.000 I think...

00:31:09.000 The PR did.

00:31:10.000 Oh yes, absolutely.

00:31:11.000 No doubt about that.

00:31:13.000 And the fact that Papa John's didn't correct the record, which, by the way, if I had the PR team then that I have today, this would never happen.

00:31:20.000 Because it's like, no, no, no.

00:31:21.000 Because you've got to get on this.

00:31:23.000 When they misquote you, you've got to get on this quick.

00:31:25.000 Because it'll just grow.

00:31:27.000 Totally.

00:31:27.000 And that's what happened.

00:31:29.000 So we're making changes.

00:31:31.000 So Laundry Service does a prep session, a training session, because I'm getting ready to go out and do some interviews.

00:31:38.000 Unbeknownst to me, they taped the conversation.

00:31:40.000 The whole conversation, they're trying to provoke me.

00:31:44.000 Laundry Service.

00:31:45.000 They're trying to provoke me.

00:31:46.000 But hired by the company.

00:31:48.000 Papa John.

00:31:48.000 So they're supposedly on your side.

00:31:50.000 That's all their old job was, is to...

00:31:52.000 Is to help deal with this fallout.

00:31:55.000 Fallout.

00:31:55.000 Temporary PR fallout.

00:31:56.000 It's the job of these firms if they have one.

00:31:58.000 But then they have a conversation with you.

00:32:01.000 It's unbeknownst to you that they're taping when you're Papa John and Papa John's is hired them and you're chairman of the board as an outside firm.

00:32:14.000 I mean, that just boggles my mind.

00:32:16.000 It's evil.

00:32:17.000 It's the managerial class gone wild.

00:32:20.000 That's all documented.

00:32:22.000 They're taping you without your knowledge.

00:32:24.000 Unbelievable.

00:32:25.000 You want the good news or the bad news?

00:32:26.000 I'll take the bad news.

00:32:27.000 Okay.

00:32:28.000 Bad news is they tape the conversation.

00:32:30.000 Yeah.

00:32:30.000 You know what's the good news?

00:32:31.000 Yeah.

00:32:32.000 They left the tape running. 0.98

00:32:33.000 And when they hung up the phone, they said, we're going to kill this MF. Are you kidding me? 0.99

00:32:38.000 They left the tape running.

00:32:39.000 So we had a hot mic.

00:32:40.000 So we got them.

00:32:40.000 They did what they did.

00:32:42.000 It's plain as day.

00:32:43.000 So what did they say when you were off?

00:32:44.000 They said, he'll be fired by Sunday.

00:32:48.000 We hope he effing gets sent out to pasture.

00:32:50.000 They literally used that word?

00:32:51.000 Yeah.

00:32:52.000 Okay.

00:32:53.000 Unbelievable.

00:32:54.000 So what did you say during that call that they wanted to hang you up?

00:32:58.000 They kept provoking and provoking.

00:32:59.000 Like, what were they saying?

00:33:00.000 What were you saying?

00:33:01.000 Just give me the...

00:33:02.000 Well, first question out of the box.

00:33:04.000 By the way, it was supposed to be a branding meeting, and the first question was, are you a racist?

00:33:08.000 The first question.

00:33:10.000 For a branding meeting.

00:33:11.000 I mean, it just was not right from the get-go, and I'm stumbling through this, and finally then I just get...

00:33:16.000 But I'm like, you guys, I don't know what you're fishing for here, but, you know, I'm a founder.

00:33:22.000 Colonel Sanders is a founder.

00:33:23.000 Colonel Sanders actually called because he's from Kentucky. 0.98

00:33:26.000 Black people, the N-word. 0.96

00:33:27.000 I never use that word. 0.96

00:33:28.000 I don't know where you're all coming up, you know.

00:33:30.000 And the problem is— That's all you said.

00:33:32.000 Is that actually true?

00:33:36.000 Yeah.

00:33:37.000 Oh, that's known.

00:33:39.000 We have people that will testify.

00:33:40.000 So use it as a comparison.

00:33:41.000 There's another business.

00:33:42.000 He's doing this.

00:33:42.000 What the heck are you doing to me?

00:33:43.000 Why are you asking me these questions?

00:33:44.000 But let's be straight with each other because it's going to be a long-term relationship here.

00:33:49.000 The comment was anti-racist.

00:33:51.000 Yeah.

00:33:52.000 I don't use that word.

00:33:53.000 The problem is I said the word.

00:33:56.000 No, you uttered the word.

00:33:57.000 The syllables.

00:33:58.000 The syllables.

00:33:59.000 That's where...

00:34:00.000 You made a noise that came out of your mouth.

00:34:03.000 Which referred to a word that you were not using in a derogatory way.

00:34:07.000 I always look at intent.

00:34:09.000 The intent was, I would never...

00:34:11.000 You know, this happened to a guy at Netflix, actually, too.

00:34:13.000 You familiar with that guy?

00:34:15.000 So he was working for, who's over the CEO, Reed Hastings.

00:34:20.000 And he's like one of his top guys.

00:34:22.000 And he was saying, in the meeting, about their own content, that we don't want this word uttered.

00:34:31.000 In the stuff we put out.

00:34:33.000 The thing he was saying is, in our content filters, make sure that they don't say the N-word.

00:34:39.000 And for him saying it in the context that they shouldn't say it in their content, he was canned.

00:34:46.000 And then I'm on The Breakfast Club, by the way.

00:34:49.000 I don't know if you saw that podcast I did.

00:34:52.000 You know, there's hosts, they happen to be black, they're kind of grilling me.

00:34:57.000 He's just using the N-word right with me on set, which is interesting, just this dichotomy we've created where it's sort of awkward, actually.

00:35:05.000 You're not using it in a derogatory way, you're talking about somebody else who was using it in a derogatory way, yet that got you in trouble.

00:35:11.000 It's sort of a weird...

00:35:13.000 Sort of a weird moment, right?

00:35:15.000 Yeah, and I think the key is...

00:35:17.000 Was that the main thing they wanted to hang you with?

00:35:19.000 Or was there something else they said?

00:35:20.000 I mean, I guess they couldn't...

00:35:22.000 The good news is they've spent over $30 million investigating me, my own board, you know, and...

00:35:29.000 Of shareholder money.

00:35:31.000 Well, I own a third of it.

00:35:32.000 Yes, exactly.

00:35:32.000 They spend a third of my money.

00:35:33.000 Your money investigating you.

00:35:35.000 This is as bad as it gets.

00:35:37.000 This is inhumane.

00:35:38.000 But, you know, life's not fair.

00:35:42.000 The universe always works for you.

00:35:44.000 It never works against you.

00:35:45.000 I think so.

00:35:45.000 I do not know why the Creator put me through this.

00:35:49.000 I thought I was humble.

00:35:51.000 I thought I was gracious.

00:35:52.000 I thought I was kind.

00:35:53.000 I thought I created a company with total integrity that was a great place to work.

00:35:59.000 But, obviously, I was missing something.

00:36:02.000 Now, I don't want to go through this again.

00:36:06.000 Um, but we, you know, we have to go, okay, there's something bigger and better out there.

00:36:11.000 Yeah.

00:36:11.000 And that we're all going to have adversity.

00:36:13.000 There's no difference of diversity that I challenge that I face.

00:36:17.000 Then, you know, everybody, uh, hardworking Americans, they have the same adversity issues.

00:36:23.000 Maybe it has a few more zeros on it.

00:36:25.000 Maybe it's, but we all have problems.

00:36:28.000 Now, if you just told me, John, by the way, um, A board of directors of Papa John's is going to hire a CEO who's going to hire an agency who's going to paint the face of the brand a racist. 0.85

00:36:41.000 I said, you're out of your mind.

00:36:42.000 There's no way.

00:36:43.000 There's no way that you take a chance on painting the founder and the face and the namesake of a company as a racist.

00:36:52.000 And that board and that CEO did that.

00:36:55.000 And so it's kind of crazy.

00:36:57.000 It is kind of crazy.

00:36:59.000 And yet...

00:37:01.000 You know, it's interesting, actually, the element of this story that I find fascinating, I think, is that there's a temptation to say that it was just the culture in this country, which was totally going nuts and haywire.

00:37:14.000 And, you know, I think this is one of the effects was Trump's 2016 election, which caused about one third of people in this country to suffer from psychiatric illness.

00:37:23.000 They start believing things they never otherwise would have believed.

00:37:27.000 And there's a cultural change going on in the country.

00:37:29.000 The left has become vitriolic with respect to its ability to want to put somebody's head in the spike.

00:37:36.000 But it's tempting to pin the story on that and just say you were a victim of it.

00:37:40.000 What I find more interesting is it actually is just a classic story of corporate boardroom drama where some people felt threatened.

00:37:48.000 They want to threaten back to you, and then they're just using that crazy culture as a tool of woke smoke to actually just accomplish a corporate coup that left them in charge.

00:37:59.000 That's actually what I found most fascinating about this.

00:38:02.000 Well, the most powerful emotion is love.

00:38:05.000 You know, if you look at Buddha or Christ and all the great, I mean, the parabola effect they have on energy versus hatred.

00:38:14.000 And the worst emotion is jealous and envy.

00:38:18.000 And I had 10 million shares.

00:38:20.000 That stock will go up two to four dollars a day, you know, here and there.

00:38:24.000 And I can imagine being an executive making five or six hundred thousand a year and a board member making two hundred thousand a year.

00:38:30.000 And in one day I make 30 million.

00:38:32.000 I can see the jealousy thing sitting in.

00:38:35.000 So, you know, I think that's a lesson learned that, you know, if I always felt like if you did the right thing and you operated with integrity and you ran a clean shop, you were safe.

00:38:48.000 This has made my awareness go up a lot.

00:38:51.000 You know, what's the saying that, you know, the Buddha master, if a guy steps up behind him and knocks him over the head with the ball bat, does he get back up and hit the guy?

00:39:00.000 And the answer is, the right Buddha has awareness to know the guy's coming behind him before he comes.

00:39:05.000 Yeah.

00:39:06.000 That's been a real good lesson on awareness.

00:39:08.000 Now, I'm not going to go through life being paranoid.

00:39:10.000 I'm not going, oh my God, this person is going to take advantage of me.

00:39:13.000 It's life too short.

00:39:15.000 But the awareness and the level of consciousness has definitely been a huge impact on trying to be a better person.

00:39:22.000 What would you do differently if you were to go through that situation again?

00:39:26.000 Um, I would have moved quicker.

00:39:33.000 I gave him too much time.

00:39:34.000 I followed...

00:39:35.000 I'm getting the CEO out.

00:39:36.000 You're too gracious.

00:39:37.000 The CEO evaluation is July 15th.

00:39:43.000 And that's when I let him go.

00:39:46.000 I was going to let him go.

00:39:48.000 I should have let the CMO go in September of 2017. I should have let Richie go, the CEO, January of 2018. And Shapiro and Libby currently should have been March of 2018. And we would have started with a clean slate.

00:40:05.000 If I didn't want this to happen, that's what I would have done differently.

00:40:08.000 I would have moved quicker because I tried to follow the process of being good corporate governance and doing things by the book.

00:40:14.000 And that just gave them time to undermine and to make things up and sabotage me with a fake story of being a racist.

00:40:22.000 And so what happened afterwards?

00:40:28.000 They kicked me out of my office on Sunday night, 11 o'clock.

00:40:34.000 Canceled all my agreements, my founders' agreements, chairman agreement.

00:40:41.000 They being a special independent committee of the board or something.

00:40:44.000 They didn't do that.

00:40:45.000 They did all this, and then Sunday at 8 o'clock, they decided to do a special committee meeting.

00:40:52.000 And the only thing the special committee did was to fire me and get rid of me.

00:40:57.000 That's not what a special committee does.

00:40:59.000 Delaware law, you've got to do an investigation.

00:41:00.000 They did an investigation.

00:41:02.000 If they'd done an investigation, they'd have had the tape.

00:41:06.000 We had the FBI, Louis Free, look at this.

00:41:08.000 They would have had the data.

00:41:09.000 They'd have had the background.

00:41:09.000 They did not do a proper investigation.

00:41:11.000 And they really are liable under Delaware law on not having an investigation.

00:41:17.000 But we did trips with these people.

00:41:21.000 These people didn't make millions.

00:41:23.000 They made tens of millions of dollars.

00:41:25.000 We never had any lawsuits with Sorbanes, Oxy, nothing.

00:41:31.000 We were best placed to work for five years.

00:41:34.000 Stock went from $6 to $88.

00:41:36.000 Not one board member, when this went down, called and said, hey, by the way, man, we're sorry this is happening, but we're just trying to do our job.

00:41:46.000 Not one board member has called me since then.

00:41:48.000 Can you imagine 34 years of your life's work and you hire this board?

00:41:54.000 Wouldn't you think they'd have the decency to say, hey, can we have a cup of coffee?

00:41:58.000 Either you've got to go, John, or we've got to go.

00:42:00.000 But not one person has called and said, we're just really sorry you and your family and your loved ones have had to go through this.

00:42:05.000 Because it was hell there for the first year until I could get on top of it.

00:42:09.000 So, yeah, it's kind of...

00:42:12.000 It's a sad story, yeah.

00:42:12.000 Yeah, it's like, wow.

00:42:14.000 I mean, I've never had a curse word with this board.

00:42:16.000 I never had anything but a very collaborative, congenial...

00:42:22.000 And it wasn't any infighting, you know, because we were doing so well.

00:42:26.000 They didn't understand why we were doing well.

00:42:28.000 They were happy making money, sitting around cheering you on.

00:42:32.000 So you did not voluntarily step aside.

00:42:36.000 No.

00:42:37.000 They made you?

00:42:38.000 Yes.

00:42:39.000 Okay.

00:42:39.000 And then what happened then?

00:42:41.000 I didn't know what happened.

00:42:44.000 I was like, that's not what I said.

00:42:46.000 Yeah.

00:42:47.000 We didn't know at the time.

00:42:48.000 We didn't know there was a tape at the time.

00:42:51.000 And I was confused.

00:42:53.000 I'm like, there's no history of not treating everybody with respect and dignity.

00:42:57.000 There's no history of this kind of stuff.

00:43:00.000 Nobody, and I'm indebted.

00:43:01.000 To the black community.

00:43:04.000 Not one person has come forward and said, oh, by the way, I heard him do this, or I heard him say this.

00:43:08.000 When you're down and you're in the town square and they're throwing tomatoes, you figure 120,000 employees, you've got to figure one person is going to come forward and say, oh, yeah, he said this.

00:43:18.000 Not one person has betrayed me.

00:43:20.000 120,000 employees?

00:43:21.000 Please.

00:43:23.000 And not one, huh?

00:43:24.000 Not one person has come forward and said anything negative about me.

00:43:28.000 That's a feat of nature.

00:43:30.000 That has been gift number one, and gift number two is the tape.

00:43:36.000 This is how corrupt laundry service and Casey Washman is. 1.00

00:43:38.000 By the way, Casey Washman is on the airplane with Jeff Epstein.

00:43:46.000 I mean, they're friends.

00:43:48.000 They're on five legs.

00:43:49.000 Of course they are. 1.00

00:43:49.000 I mean, the shit these people... 1.00

00:43:51.000 Unbelievable. 1.00

00:43:52.000 It's unbelievable.

00:43:53.000 And that was back to the people that wake up every day, whether Democrat or Republican.

00:43:56.000 They just want what's best for their family.

00:43:59.000 They don't understand how...

00:44:01.000 And you're getting ready to get the baptism by fire.

00:44:05.000 How evil the elite left...

00:44:07.000 The elite left, they want to lower the population.

00:44:10.000 Totally.

00:44:10.000 I mean, the border.

00:44:12.000 Afghanistan.

00:44:13.000 Afghanistan.

00:44:13.000 I mean, say Papa John's was worth $3 billion.

00:44:16.000 I mean, we just left $85 billion worth of equipment over there.

00:44:20.000 I mean, the list goes on.

00:44:23.000 The drugs.

00:44:24.000 The meth.

00:44:25.000 Fentanyl.

00:44:26.000 You name it.

00:44:27.000 But they just don't understand how demonic and evil that these people are.

00:44:33.000 And that's the problem.

00:44:35.000 I thought the last election, the mid-cycle, I thought the electorate will see inflation, and they didn't see it.

00:44:42.000 Now, this cycle, for some reason, this feels different.

00:44:46.000 What do you think?

00:44:46.000 I think it feels different.

00:44:48.000 But I think it's not going to...

00:44:50.000 I'm not a passive observer, right?

00:44:51.000 I'm in this to change it.

00:44:53.000 I think that part of the problem is...

00:44:55.000 Yeah, there was a stage for us to see the challenges that people like you and I both have gone through, not only as CEOs, but challenges that people face in our culture every day.

00:45:04.000 But at some point, we're going to have to start running to something, right, to our own vision.

00:45:12.000 And so much of the left, not most of the Democratic, not most Democrats living their lives in the United States of America, but what we're thinking about as the people who control the keys to the institutional left, They're foisting this ideology of race, gender, sexuality, and climate.

00:45:31.000 I think we need to talk more about the value of the individual.

00:45:34.000 Hard work, success, self-determination, family, nation, God.

00:45:41.000 Individual, family, nation, God beats race, gender, sexuality, and climate any day of the week, but...

00:45:46.000 I think in our movement, in the conservative movement, we've been too shy in talking about actual values of our own that we stand for.

00:45:55.000 So I think that's what we missed in the 2022 election, the mid-cycle election, is it was all about pointing out the failures of Biden, which are obvious.

00:46:03.000 Anybody can stare that in the face and see it.

00:46:07.000 But people need to satisfy our hunger for purpose and meaning and direction and identity to say, no, no, no.

00:46:14.000 This is what we stand for and we will not apologize for it.

00:46:19.000 So nobody's doing that.

00:46:20.000 I'm aiming to do that in this race.

00:46:21.000 I think it's why it's going well so far.

00:46:24.000 But I think we have an opportunity for it to be different.

00:46:26.000 I don't think it's going to happen automatically.

00:46:27.000 I think you're onto something huge.

00:46:30.000 Principles and values and natural law.

00:46:34.000 There's a system in place.

00:46:36.000 Yes.

00:46:37.000 Whether you like it or not, when you play games and you hide things, sooner or later, the system seems to kind of hold things together.

00:46:48.000 When you have your principles and values, mutual respect, integrity, collaborative alliances, win-wins, faith, family, when you have principles in place, when things go awry, you have something to lean back on.

00:47:00.000 I never really looked at myself as Papa John.

00:47:02.000 I just looked at myself as John.

00:47:03.000 That was kind of like Kid Rock, his name's Bobby.

00:47:06.000 Yeah.

00:47:06.000 He's really like Kid Rock, he's Bobby.

00:47:07.000 And so when this all went down, he didn't go, no longer Papa John.

00:47:11.000 That didn't even faze me because, you know, I'll tell you what, one thing I did do with principal, I went right back to my mom because my mom didn't like this.

00:47:19.000 My mom was hard. 0.77

00:47:20.000 My mom was tough.

00:47:21.000 And she did not like this.

00:47:22.000 I went back to my high school baseball coach.

00:47:25.000 And I said, let's level set here.

00:47:27.000 I said, what?

00:47:27.000 I have no idea.

00:47:29.000 Peyton and I talked right after this.

00:47:31.000 He said, what's up?

00:47:31.000 I go, I don't know, Peyton.

00:47:32.000 I said, just for right now, you need to stay the hell away from me until I get this figured out how in the hell they did this, because I didn't at the time know what happened.

00:47:40.000 But to go back and lean back on principles gives you so much strength to endure and versity that if you don't have your principles and values, sooner or later, when you go awry, you're going to be lost.

00:47:54.000 That's what's interesting.

00:47:55.000 That's what grounds you.

00:47:55.000 I mean, sometimes it's hard to see it through the fog of the present.

00:47:59.000 You were, you know, God put in front of you a great challenge.

00:48:03.000 You think you took something away from it yet?

00:48:05.000 Oh, yeah.

00:48:06.000 Oh, yeah.

00:48:06.000 It's made me better.

00:48:08.000 What would you tell a young person today if you're giving them advice based on the other side of this experience and who you are today?

00:48:15.000 What do you want to tell somebody who's graduating from high school in this country?

00:48:18.000 Well, I'd tell them to vote for you for president.

00:48:20.000 I appreciate that.

00:48:22.000 I'd tell them, find something you love to do.

00:48:24.000 Find something you're good at.

00:48:25.000 I don't care if you're a dentist, engineer, biochemist.

00:48:29.000 Find what you do, find what you love, work it to the bone, and you'll make all the money in the world.

00:48:33.000 I mean, a lot of young people now lack that self-confidence that you had that led you to say, all right, well, I want to make the pizza.

00:48:41.000 It's a better business than the other thing I'm doing or had an opportunity to do.

00:48:47.000 Young people today, I think, lack a bit of that self-confidence.

00:48:51.000 How do we bring that back?

00:48:52.000 Well, first thing is you have great coaches.

00:48:54.000 You said you went back to your baseball coach.

00:48:56.000 That stuck with me.

00:48:58.000 I look at my elementary teachers, godfather in first grade.

00:49:03.000 Jennings in third grade teach me math.

00:49:08.000 The teachers I had and the schools I went to were exceptional.

00:49:13.000 Great coaches.

00:49:14.000 But the one thing you have to have is positive people around you.

00:49:17.000 I do not do well with negative people.

00:49:21.000 And unfortunately, these kids kind of ridicule each other and they pick on each other.

00:49:24.000 And you want people around you that are going to build you up and make you feel better.

00:49:28.000 So I think associate with the right people that have the right habits, that have the right values, and then just hope to God you can get a good coach and lead you the way.

00:49:37.000 But I think a lot of the negativity is we don't have a lot of role models to look up to.

00:49:41.000 And I think the negativity with social media and the constant badgering at each other and running each other down when you're young.

00:49:50.000 I mean, when people say things about you and I, we don't like it, but it's not going to keep us off our mission.

00:49:54.000 When you're 14 or 15 or 16 years old, you're malleable and you're going to be more prone to get down on yourself when other people are making fun of you, I think.

00:50:03.000 Yeah, I mean, it's interesting you say that.

00:50:05.000 I tend to agree with you.

00:50:09.000 You see this mentality now ingrained into the minds of younger kids to not only see yourself as a victim of just being bullied by the bigger kid in the class, but if you're a certain race or a gender or sexual orientation, you're oppressed.

00:50:26.000 And I think that we got to get past this mentality where, you know, something bad happened to you, doesn't upset and ruin your whole, doesn't mess up your whole day.

00:50:37.000 It's like you stubbed your toe, right?

00:50:39.000 Somebody said something mean to you.

00:50:40.000 Okay, that doesn't mean that that person is in the right, but it bothers you about as much as you stub your toe walking around the kitchen.

00:50:48.000 And I think that that's something that we would do well to bring back.

00:50:51.000 The president's not going to do it on his own, right?

00:50:53.000 That's what I'm asking you.

00:50:54.000 It's going to depend on people like you to tell your stories, coaches to lift kids up.

00:50:59.000 But I do think that part of the crisis in this country right now...

00:51:04.000 Is actually a loss.

00:51:05.000 Sometimes I call it a loss of national pride, and it is.

00:51:08.000 But it's even deeper.

00:51:09.000 It's a loss of self-confidence itself.

00:51:12.000 And if we can muster and build back some of that self-confidence, especially among young people, that's part of how you grow an economy.

00:51:19.000 You have more people like you who are willing, confident enough to take the risks that you did to start a new business, to create things in the world that did not exist.

00:51:28.000 That's probably the single most important ingredient to reviving this country.

00:51:31.000 Well, you can't have mutual respect if you don't have self respect.

00:51:34.000 Yes.

00:51:35.000 You can't have self-respect if you don't have personal integrity.

00:51:37.000 If you're not solid with yourself, okay, your personality is what you think, how you feel, and how you act.

00:51:45.000 What you think, how you feel.

00:51:47.000 I mean, you can think positive, but if you feel negative and you act negative, I mean, you know, and so I think it all starts with the individual.

00:51:56.000 And that was the beautiful thing about what the framers did, is they understood common sense and they understood human nature, both good and bad.

00:52:03.000 And they understood free markets.

00:52:05.000 A majority of them were businessmen.

00:52:07.000 They were.

00:52:07.000 They really were.

00:52:09.000 So they understood everything from a business perspective.

00:52:11.000 So I think it starts with the individual.

00:52:13.000 I mean, I just don't know how I'm going to be strong for my friends and my family and my community if I'm not strong with myself.

00:52:19.000 Are you religious?

00:52:21.000 Very spiritual.

00:52:22.000 Very spiritual.

00:52:23.000 I mean, I think anything...

00:52:25.000 Is that part of what gives you your sense of strength or is it something else?

00:52:29.000 Well, it's the only hope I got to get my ego out of the way, you know?

00:52:34.000 I think...

00:52:35.000 Like you said, your baseball coach, does he play more of a role or would it be a religious figure, a priest, or a pastor?

00:52:41.000 Yeah.

00:52:41.000 No, I don't do the religious dogma thing.

00:52:45.000 But I'm really good at moving molecules and particles with molecules and particles. 0.98

00:52:51.000 You and I know how to get shit done. 0.87

00:52:52.000 When you're building 5,000 stores in a store day, you know what you're doing. 0.98

00:52:58.000 I like being in, I call it the quantum field, and get out of the three-dimensional field.

00:53:03.000 Really get in the quantum field and get the energy out of the quantum field to make better decisions.

00:53:08.000 On the three-dimensional field, you know, through our five senses.

00:53:11.000 But I definitely...

00:53:13.000 This is...

00:53:15.000 We've always been spiritual and always knew there was...

00:53:19.000 I mean, there is...

00:53:21.000 God is truth.

00:53:22.000 I think God is real is one of your principles.

00:53:24.000 God is real.

00:53:25.000 I believe that, yes.

00:53:27.000 I mean, every time I get myself, even sword in the gray, even if it's accidentally sword in the gray, I get...

00:53:32.000 smacked upside the head i don't understand how these democrats get away because what they do is they hire lawyers and they wear the other guys down with lawyers and they take you know things going for three four five six years but the stuff they do i mean the russian hoax uh the hunter biden cover-up uh all this money coming in from these four i mean you know we're talking not one or two years but some of this goes back to 13 and 14 10 years and

00:53:57.000 Yet they're able to prolong this being exposed to the public and get away with things that you and I have no chance of getting away with.

00:54:05.000 That's the reality, but the question is what are we going to do about it?

00:54:08.000 I think it goes back to that.

00:54:09.000 You pointed it out.

00:54:11.000 You can't have mutual respect if you don't have self-respect.

00:54:14.000 To have self-respect, we've got to know who we really are.

00:54:18.000 And to me, that's part of what, that's our opportunity right now.

00:54:21.000 Fill that hole.

00:54:22.000 And that's the opportunity I see you have.

00:54:24.000 I remember being, I was born in 61, you know, right after JFK was assassinated.

00:54:29.000 But before he passed, he put in the President's Fitness Award.

00:54:33.000 Yes.

00:54:34.000 100 sit-ups, 100 push-ups.

00:54:35.000 And that was the religion that you did in elementary school.

00:54:38.000 And I think you're the kind of person that can bring us together and I mean, you're athletic, you play tennis, you're fit, you're sharp, you've been successful.

00:54:45.000 I think what a role model to give everybody else in this country a special hour.

00:54:50.000 You use hope.

00:54:51.000 That's what I think you could do.

00:54:52.000 I appreciate that.

00:54:52.000 I mean, I think that whether it's me or somebody else, it's being done through us.

00:54:56.000 I'm running to be the next guy who does it.

00:54:58.000 I want the person who's in the White House to be somebody that you and I can look at our kids and say in good conscience, I want you to grow up and be like him.

00:55:07.000 Whoever that is.

00:55:08.000 And that can be part of bringing back our self-confidence as a country, too.

00:55:12.000 We need role models, not just presidents, but CEOs, entrepreneurs, coaches.

00:55:17.000 I think you can do this.

00:55:18.000 I appreciate it.

00:55:19.000 What's your advice to me before we wrap up?

00:55:21.000 I want to be selfish here.

00:55:23.000 Tell me.

00:55:24.000 Be strong and receive.

00:55:28.000 I love your principles, your values.

00:55:31.000 The Constitution is the greatest document for freedom.

00:55:37.000 I usually say there was five agencies because you had the agencies and you also had technology.

00:55:43.000 You had the big guys, the three governments.

00:55:45.000 But I think your principles and your values and the way you're going about it, And I think you're walking the talk.

00:55:52.000 I think that's the key thing.

00:55:53.000 If you walk the talk and you're truthful, I don't think, and you're going to have to have an arsenal around you because they're going to come after you.

00:56:03.000 Sure.

00:56:03.000 And you see DeSantis.

00:56:04.000 DeSantis, you know, who's a great governor.

00:56:06.000 I'm a president of Florida.

00:56:07.000 A great man.

00:56:08.000 I think he's a great governor.

00:56:09.000 He's a great governor.

00:56:10.000 A great man.

00:56:12.000 And very good friends.

00:56:14.000 But, I mean, he had no idea what he's getting himself into when he We stepped into that presidential race on a national basis.

00:56:21.000 So, you know, just walk the talk.

00:56:24.000 Keep being you.

00:56:25.000 And then you're going to have to hire...

00:56:27.000 This is not a knife fight.

00:56:30.000 This is a gunfight. 1.00

00:56:31.000 You show up with a slingshot or a knife, you're going to get your ass whooped. 1.00

00:56:35.000 You're going to have to come with a bazooka because these people are nasty. 1.00

00:56:39.000 They play to win.

00:56:41.000 They'll do anything they can to win at all costs.

00:56:43.000 And as long as you're ready for that, you know, truth will always win over lies and light will always outshine darkness.

00:56:51.000 Love will always outdo hate.

00:56:53.000 Beautiful.

00:56:54.000 Beautiful.

00:56:55.000 I love it.

00:56:55.000 This got me going today.

00:56:57.000 You gave me my lift and win in my wings for today.

00:57:00.000 I appreciate that.

00:57:01.000 Well, thank you.

00:57:02.000 It's good to see you.

00:57:02.000 You've been a hero from afar.

00:57:03.000 This is a special gift and opportunity for me.

00:57:06.000 Well, you touched my daughter's heart.

00:57:08.000 She wanted this to happen.

00:57:09.000 Thank you.

00:57:10.000 I'm grateful.

00:57:11.000 I'm grateful that we did it.

00:57:12.000 I think this is just the beginning.

00:57:13.000 I have a feeling we're going to be allies for a long time to come.

00:57:19.000 And truthfully, I'm expecting to be in the White House for eight years, but the president alone is not going to drive our cultural revival.

00:57:25.000 It's going to take everybody, including people like you, to do your part, and I know you will.

00:57:29.000 And I cannot wait to see what that next adventure is.

00:57:32.000 I'm at the edge of my seat.

00:57:33.000 I'm excited.

00:57:34.000 Amen to that.

00:57:35.000 And let's go.

00:57:36.000 I want to see this 10% incentive.

00:57:38.000 We incentivize to do drugs.

00:57:40.000 We incentivize not to work.

00:57:41.000 And now you're incentivizing people to raise money.

00:57:44.000 I think it's beautiful.

00:57:44.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:57:45.000 It's beautiful.

00:57:46.000 You know, and the funny thing is the political consultant class, they're the ones who are, it's like the equivalent of these toxic ad agencies.

00:57:52.000 They're the ones actually collecting all the 10% of the money they raise.

00:57:54.000 I said, let everybody else do it.

00:57:57.000 Might as well democratize it. 1.00

00:57:58.000 That's my view.

00:57:59.000 So anyway, it's a lot of fun.

00:58:00.000 Thank you, John.

00:58:01.000 Thanks for having me.

Truth Podcast - Vivek Ramaswamy - September 12, 2023

Papa John's Recipe for Success in America | The TRUTH Podcast #37

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