Balazs Orban is the Political Director for Prime Minister Viktor Orban's right-wing conservative party in Hungary. In this episode, Balazs talks about the lessons Orban has learned from standing up to the managerial class and bureaucracy in his country, and how we can learn from the success Orban and his party have had in standing up against globalism, feminism, and other globalist ideologies. He also discusses the challenges Orban faces, and the lessons we could learn from his experience in Hungary, as well as the lessons he has learned in the United States, as a country that has a strong tradition of traditional family values and a commitment to the family, and a strong sense of personal identity, in order to lead a nation that is truly a nation under God and a nation of people who are committed to a Godly, Christian, family, nation, and God-centered society. He also talks about how Orban s party has been able to stand up to a managerial class that seeks to extend a broader globalist agenda, including the corporate and managerial class, in a way that can be learned here in the U.S. and around the world. Thank you for listening to this episode of the podcast, and I hope you enjoy it! -Vivek and I look forward to hearing back from you in the next episode. -Vijay on the podcast. . Thank you so much for having me on your show, and for supporting this podcast. I've been looking forward to having you on the show. - Vaynerchand I'm so grateful to have you here in this episode! - Thank you, Vay, Vyas, for joining me in this conversation, and so much more! -Vivk, I hope that you enjoy the podcast! -Jon and I'm glad you're enjoying this conversation. -Jon, Jon, VYANES, and Vyans, and thank you for supporting the podcast - -Jon & Jon thank you, Jon, for listening, Jon and Jon's words, and vyans - in the future episodes of this podcast, - -Vyanservices - Jon, and Jon, Jon's blog post Vy, Jon & Jon's tweet & Jon, , and Jon s phone number is . . Jon's phone number?
Transcript
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00:00:48.000That actually lives in our hearts because it's created by the absence of real purpose and meaning.
00:00:54.000And I think if we want to be a true conservative movement in this country, around the world in the United States of America, we're going to have to fill that void with the things that used to fill that void.
00:01:05.000That's how you actually stop the poison from entering.
00:01:08.000Let's not just be against, though I think we've done that plenty, race, gender, sexuality, and the climate.
00:01:34.000That you are a child of two parents, a mother and a father.
00:01:39.000All of us are And that's the best unit of governance known to mankind.
00:01:44.000Let's talk about the nation, the idea of not being some nebulous global citizen, but a citizen of this nation, in my case, the United States of America, and that we won't apologize for it and that we do believe, yes, we are a nation under God.
00:02:00.000These are the things that satisfy our hunger for purpose and meaning.
00:02:04.000And yet today's conservative movement has all but abandoned an actual affirmative vision of our own.
00:02:10.000That's what I'm running to revive in our country.
00:02:13.000But one of the things I've found over the years is that sometimes you can see things clearer if you're looking from the outside in than if you're just looking at yourself from the inside out.
00:02:23.000And I actually like to do the same in return.
00:02:26.000One of the countries I have been carefully paying some attention to, I would say even studying over the last few years, is what's happened in Hungary.
00:02:34.000What Viktor Orban has done as the leader of Hungary.
00:02:39.000It's a different nation today than when I first went there for the better.
00:02:43.000And I think a lot of that is because of Orban's leadership.
00:02:47.000And, you know, I think that there's a lot we can learn outside of the partisan struggles of the current moment, Republicans versus Democrats.
00:02:54.000We can get wrapped up in an echo chamber in a bubble of our own.
00:02:57.000Sometimes we have a refreshed perspective by actually looking abroad and then bringing those lessons back in.
00:03:02.000And equally good to talk to someone who's from one of those countries who's looking at the United States and describes what he sees.
00:03:09.000So that's what we're going to do today.
00:03:10.000And that's why I'm pleased to welcome to today's podcast Balazs Orban, who works in Viktor Orban's administration.
00:03:17.000I believe he's the political director for Viktor Orban.
00:03:21.000He's going to talk to us a little bit about some of the lessons from Hungary and the experience in Hungary, pro-family policy, what that means, what it means to actually stand up to the managerial class and bureaucracy within a government, maybe an extension of a broader globalist agenda and how Hungary has managed to stand up to that.
00:03:39.000In a way that we could actually do well to learn from here in the United States.
00:03:42.000And so with that, Balazs, I want to welcome you to the podcast.
00:03:46.000I've been looking forward to this conversation.
00:04:14.000Viktor Orban and his right-wing conservative party won the elections first in 2010 and since then we are in power.
00:04:24.000So right now we have 13 years of experience and I think It could be that this is the most important reason why the word looks on Hungary.
00:04:40.000It's because we were just not talking about important values on the conservative side.
00:04:48.000We were not just talking about what should be done, but we actually did it and we introduced these We put these conservative values into everyday governmental practice.
00:05:03.000And it turned out that this is a kind of a very unique experiment on the Western world.
00:05:11.000And it's actually turned out that this is This is working and the country can be successful based on conservative, right-wing, Christian, democratic values.
00:05:22.000The values you also mentioned, like family, nation and God, these values could turn into practice and it will bring prosperity for the country.
00:05:46.000If you follow these values, if you are able to turn them into everyday governmental practice, then you are going to be successful economically, culturally, politically.
00:05:57.000And not the political party, but the country as such.
00:06:02.000Give me some examples of when you talk about reviving, let's say, family.
00:06:08.000I know that's been a big part of the pro-family policy agenda.
00:06:13.000What are some of the things you did to make that happen?
00:06:15.000It is, and it's connected to the problem of mass illegal migration.
00:06:22.000So all the Western countries are in demographic decline.
00:06:27.000And according to all the public opinion polls, mothers and fathers, boys and girls, Young parents, they actually want to have more children than at the end they will have.
00:06:50.000We don't have to We just have to help them to reach their goals.
00:06:56.000And the problem is right now that the liberal state is in favor of supporting mass, mainly illegal, migration instead of putting all the resources into family support programs.
00:07:18.000We stopped actually illegal migration on our borders and we said that we don't want to spend our money to the very costly integrational programs which are not always successful but we want to give these money to the families to those who want to raise more children and financially through government programs and through the complete environment Should
00:08:41.000So first, if you don't have to pay any personal income tax for mothers, they don't have to pay personal income tax if they have four children for their entire life.
00:08:53.000And we want to introduce that for mothers with three children.
00:10:45.000Right now we have kind of a strategic thinking on how to increase it further because you need to have 2.1% without immigration to have a sustainable population.
00:10:58.000To sustain the death rate without immigration.
00:12:08.000So everything, all the family support programs are not based on social issues, but based on the fact that you have the willingness to have a job, to get married, and to raise children.
00:12:29.000Because it still borrows from a liberal instinct.
00:12:33.000Well, not just a liberal instinct, but policies that could sound like a liberal policy of government providing aid.
00:12:39.000But to tie that to families that are procreating, contributing to the repopulation rate, And also actually working.
00:12:49.000Yes, Vivek, in this regard, Hungary is a bit different than the United States.
00:12:55.000And Anglo-Saxon conservatism is a bit different than the Hungarian conservatism.
00:13:00.000So, obviously, we conservatives, we are not in favor of a big state, for sure, that this is a liberal agenda.
00:13:09.000But we do think that conservatives should use the state To promote conservative values and support those who are ready to live a normal life with children, get married, get job, and so on and so on.
00:13:30.000So in Hungary, this question is not so controversial.
00:13:34.000And the government has, not only through programs, but also through PR activities, campaigns, the resource to create an environment where people think that the normal way of life is not to jump into the VOLC agenda,
00:13:59.000But to get married, to have children, to go to work and to live a decent and normal life.
00:14:06.000And without changing any kind of regulation in connection with abortion, for example, because of this initiative, the number of abortions halved.
00:14:20.000In the last 10 years, number of marriages, double number of divorces, halved, and as I mentioned, the fertility rate went up.
00:14:50.000I think that the way it lands on an American ear, Balazs, the way you put it in saying it's different in Hungary versus the US, I don't think it has to be so different in Hungary versus the US, actually.
00:15:01.000I think that the thing that people fear is when you talk about conservatives should use the state to promote conservative values.
00:15:11.000I would just, this is an American context, would frame it differently because the thing that people then think is fascism, totalitarianism, that we will, at behest of, you know, military or sort of, you know, police intervention, foist this onto you.
00:15:29.000And then people recoil and they fight back against the very things we want to promote, marriage, having kids and work.
00:15:34.000Versus what you're talking about is just using Really economic incentives to get people to choose the kinds of things that they would be better off choosing for themselves anyway, which is, I think, a very different proposition.
00:16:00.000That's why I started at the beginning with talking about the public opinion polls that we don't have to convince the people to have this kind of life.
00:16:14.000And there are some people who want to have another type of life.
00:16:20.000The states should guarantee their freedom to live their life what they want.
00:16:25.000But the problem is that in the Western societies, at least this is the case in Hungary, the majority of the people They want to live this life with the job, with the marriage, with the family.
00:16:40.000And I think the state cannot be neutral or cannot be hostile because right now, if I look around in many Western societies, if you want to have this kind of life, the state itself is hostile towards you.
00:17:00.000I'm not talking about being supportive, but it's also not neutral, it's hostile.
00:17:04.000Because it's a saying that all the social programs, all the social benefits, all the subsidies, All the positive discrimination elements in the system should go to that direction, which is not supportive for those who are belonging to the majority, but belonging rather to the minority.
00:17:29.000Without that, there is no flourishing society.
00:17:35.000But you also have to be economically supportive, as you said, to those who want to go to another pattern.
00:17:43.000And they are right now left behind by the political elite, by the liberal political elite.
00:17:49.000I think there's an interesting point you made here about the pro-life movement in the US as well, is this is how you get More women to yes in having the child, or even fewer being put in the position to have to face the choice of having an abortion.
00:18:08.000You don't have that if you're in the family context, two parents, with a level of even if you brought an extra kid in.
00:18:14.000So we have two kids, how can I handle three kids?
00:18:18.000We're promoting that because we have a population level birth rate issue.
00:18:22.000And I think this is different than, say, the Chinese model of, you know, they went the other direction with the one child policy and mandated.
00:18:29.000We're not mandating anything is your point in Hungary.
00:18:32.000You're saying that we will affirmatively promote the kind of society that we think will allow us to flourish, but while giving individuals and co-equal citizens still a chance to live on their own, So I guess if I was to give you three buckets using your own language, One is, one that is, as you put, hostile to pro-family, pro-nuclear family, pro-work, pro-childbirth environment.
00:19:01.000And that's hostile because it's giving money to everybody who doesn't do that without actually promoting those who are actually living in a family structure.
00:19:09.000One that is neutral, one that just says the government's done subsidizing anything and let people arrive at the choice that most of them want to arrive at.
00:19:18.000And then one that affirmatively Steers people in that direction using the power of the purse to do it.
00:19:26.000Sounds like you'd favor the third of those.
00:19:31.000I would describe the first one as a current progressive model.
00:19:36.000I would describe the second one, the classical liberal model, which did exist, which was the case in the beginning of mid-20th century.
00:19:48.000But it's not anymore there because the state is occupied by the progressive.
00:19:52.000So right now there is only the first model.
00:19:56.000And I would call for the alternative model, which is the third, as you described.
00:20:02.000This is, if you like this phrase, the conservative way of thinking.
00:20:07.000And then even within that though, this is crucial though, even within that conservative model, there's a choice between how you achieve it.
00:20:19.000One is what the progressives will naturally label you to be, which is fascist and forcing this onto people.
00:20:26.000And the other is one that says, no, we actually embrace an element of the classical liberal model of choice, but we're not neutral in the choice that we would like for you to make.
00:20:39.000We're rooting for you to make the right choice, but it is still your choice to make.
00:20:43.000That I think is the beauty of the final step of the act, which avoids.
00:20:48.000Which avoids some of the accusations that you'll otherwise face.
00:20:52.000True, and I think this is why the abortion issue is a very hard issue, it's a very hard topic, but this is why it's a good example.
00:21:03.000Like in Hungary, we didn't change any kind of regulation in the last 13 years.
00:21:09.000We have actually quite a liberal abortion policy, so you can choose freely whether you want to have the baby or not, but the government While it's maintaining the freedom of decision-making, gives you all the necessary financial and other kind of supports which are needed if you want to make a decision to keep the baby.
00:21:38.000And the reason is, I think the result is very obvious.
00:21:43.000More and more women, without changing any kind of regulation, which is without causing any kind of social conflict in connection with that very hard topic, are having a decision to keep the baby.
00:22:41.000Then we'll have birth rate, or what would you call net repopulation rate?
00:22:48.000Death rate minus birth, you know, death rate minus- Fertility rate, but- Fertility, net fertility rate.
00:22:55.000And then one is actually GDP as a percentage or sort of expenditure as percentage of GDP on what you'd call pro-family policies.
00:23:06.000In the US, that'd be basically zero right now, but both for military and for pro-family.
00:23:13.000It would be an interesting comparison.
00:23:16.000If you're open to it, I'm going to have my team get on this, but if you can help us fill out the Hungary side of this, I would be very happy to do so.
00:23:26.000So maybe we'll wrap with this, Balazs.
00:23:29.000What's been your observation of what this has done for the character of national pride in Hungary?
00:23:39.000It seems to me it's gone up quite a bit, but do you think it's the family foundation and the work culture that's doing it?
00:23:45.000Or are you guys independently focused on fostering Hungarian national pride in other ways?
00:23:50.000And which do you think is responsible for the resurgence of national pride you're seeing in the country?
00:23:55.000Well, it's a very complicated question.
00:23:59.000I think that it's a complex issue, but definitely there is one basic pillar of it and it's obviously economy.
00:24:09.000So, economically you have to be successful.
00:24:13.000And you have to be able to build up a workforce society.
00:24:18.000So in Hungary, we created one million extra jobs since 2010. So, you know, it's quite a significant number because the country's population is 10 million.
00:24:34.000So it's like, imagine that in the United States in 10 years time, you have 35 35 million more jobs.
00:24:42.000So it's quite a significant change in the society.
00:25:16.000I think it's a beautiful history, but it wasn't easy always.
00:25:20.000We have been occupied by foreigners many times in the last 1000 years by the Mongols and then by the Ottomans and then by the Germans, by the Habsburgs and then by the Nazis and then by the Russians.
00:25:37.000So it's like we just regained our independence After the collapse of the Soviet Union and there was quite a long transition period.
00:25:49.000But right now we have our sovereignty.
00:25:52.000We are able to make our own decisions in foreign policy and in domestic policy.
00:25:58.000We are getting more and more proud of our cultural heritage, of our institutional pillars like the church, the family, the nation itself and so on and so on.
00:26:25.000And the two things has to go, I think, in hand in hand.
00:26:28.000If one pillar is missing, then the whole architecture is not effective.
00:26:35.000Yeah, but I know there's this expression in, you know, often the Christian tradition of, to experience the love of God, you must experience the love of your family first.
00:26:47.000I think that there is something to be said about an analog for the nation.
00:26:51.000In order to be proud of your nation, you must have the pride of your family first as well.
00:26:56.000And I think you're more proud of a nation when you're also part of a family that you're proud to be part of and a family that is proud of you for being part of it.
00:27:05.000And it opens your heart to national pride as well, I think.
00:27:15.000Learned a lot in a short amount of time.
00:27:17.000I'm going to ask our teams to be in touch to sort of draw this, fill out some of these data points if that's something you're receptive to.
00:27:25.000And I know that's something we on the American side can learn from.
00:27:28.000I can't promise the same in return, but hopefully it'll be useful to you.
00:27:32.000Oh, but still, your country is wonderful.