Valuetainment - Episode 221： Goldman Sachs to Backgammon Grand Master Predicts Market Crash

00:00:00.000 30 seconds, one time for the underdog, ignition sequence start, let me see you put em up, reach

00:00:09.240 the sky, turn the stars up above, cause it's one time for the underdog, one time for the

00:00:16.240 underdog.

00:00:17.280 I'm Patrick Medevi, host of AITEMEN, and today our sit down is with Victor Ashkenazi, who's

00:00:21.760 an immigrant from Russia, escaped communism to come to New York, goes to NYU, works at

00:00:26.540 Goldman Sachs for 11 years, and one day wakes up and he says, ah, I think I'm going to

00:00:30.780 go be the best backgammon player in the U.S., and that's exactly what he does.

00:00:34.560 How are you?

00:00:35.240 Very good, thank you, sir.

00:00:36.260 Hey, thanks for coming and visiting us on Valuetainment.

00:00:39.100 Thank you.

00:00:39.500 So as we're going and playing the game, maybe we can learn a little bit more about you, as

00:00:43.460 well as your background in the game, as well as some of the market things that's going

00:00:46.280 on.

00:00:46.420 So prior to talking about your Goldman Sachs side, talk about the backgammon game.

00:00:51.120 Like for somebody who doesn't know, you know, most people say chess, we know chess, it's

00:00:54.260 a popular game.

00:00:54.900 What is the difference between chess and backgammon, and what makes this game so special?

00:00:59.060 Chess was my first childhood game back in Russia.

00:01:01.400 You know, I played in some junior tournaments, and then when I arrived to New York at age 25,

00:01:06.800 I actually started playing some chess in the Times Square.

00:01:08.980 It helped me to learn English, because I didn't speak any English at that time.

00:01:13.080 But also I noticed there is another game called backgammon, you know, people play next to us,

00:01:17.860 and I noticed, you know, people play for money.

00:01:19.740 It's a lot of excitement, you know, around that game.

00:01:21.520 I started learning this, and, you know, as soon as I started playing in tournaments and

00:01:25.660 recognized that I can play, you know, a good game.

00:01:28.320 And the difference between the games is just chess is a very sure thing.

00:01:31.960 So, for example, if I play a little bit better than you, I would probably win nine games out

00:01:35.980 of ten, if not ten out of ten.

00:01:37.720 In backgammon, that's not the case, because backgammon, in backgammon, the luck is involved.

00:01:42.660 You know, luck is in these two things.

00:01:44.320 It's called dice.

00:01:45.340 You roll the dice, and that's the number on the dice.

00:01:47.400 So, it can be a good number, it can be a bad number, and that brings the variety, you

00:01:51.660 know, to the result.

00:01:52.940 So, best player or a better player not always win the game.

00:01:56.820 Similar to the poker.

00:01:58.220 So, I would say that backgammon, in terms of, like, a skill, probably somewhere between

00:02:02.260 chess and the poker.

00:02:03.620 Interesting.

00:02:04.200 So, better player win more than he would probably win in poker, but, of course, he win less

00:02:09.940 than he would win in chess.

00:02:11.340 Got it.

00:02:11.700 So, poker, somebody could go who's an amateur, and they could get lucky and go on a streak

00:02:15.520 and beat the best guys in the world, right?

00:02:16.900 Absolutely.

00:02:17.140 Like, Moneymaker did, remember?

00:02:18.220 That's right.

00:02:18.660 I remember O4, when he, O4, O3, when he won $2.5 million.

00:02:21.360 So, he was an accountant, apparently, right, when he won and won this.

00:02:23.680 He actually didn't, yeah.

00:02:24.460 He didn't even buy in.

00:02:25.440 He won, like, a satellite tournament, you know, paid, like, $20 or only $30 to get into

00:02:30.380 the main event, you know, to the $10,000 event, then won the whole event.

00:02:33.960 So, what's the idea?

00:02:35.040 I mean, I play the game, but why don't you tell the rest of it?

00:02:37.440 What is the idea of the game?

00:02:38.520 How does somebody win the game?

00:02:39.620 Right.

00:02:40.220 This is the original position.

00:02:41.640 Backgammon actually have a few variations.

00:02:43.000 If you go around the world, the game called different, you know, sometimes it's called

00:02:46.520 Tavla in Greece.

00:02:47.600 It's called Shesh-Besh in Iran.

00:02:49.540 Yeah.

00:02:49.780 And they have different variations.

00:02:51.460 This is, like, a westernized variation.

00:02:53.760 It's called Backgammon.

00:02:54.720 So, we have 15 checkers.

00:02:55.900 This is 15 checkers each.

00:02:57.640 This is the original position.

00:02:58.860 The goal is to bring your checkers, and in this position, my checkers are white and Patrick's

00:03:04.380 checkers are black.

00:03:05.560 We're going to bring them around the board and try to get them off, you know, all the board.

00:03:10.100 So, as soon as you get all 15 checkers off the board, the game is finished.

00:03:14.000 So, whoever did it first, win the game.

00:03:16.080 That's it.

00:03:16.620 Simple.

00:03:17.100 Okay.

00:03:17.380 So, we're going to play a little bit, if you don't mind.

00:03:18.700 Let's see if I can get lucky or not, play against the best one in the world.

00:03:21.560 So, first, what do we do?

00:03:22.540 I roll the dice on this side.

00:03:23.680 You roll the dice.

00:03:24.080 Yeah.

00:03:24.320 You just roll.

00:03:25.240 So, you have a number.

00:03:26.000 Double five.

00:03:26.680 Okay.

00:03:26.980 Double five.

00:03:27.680 All right.

00:03:28.000 So, it means you have to play five four times.

00:03:30.000 Yep.

00:03:30.380 So, we go right here.

00:03:31.880 That's beautiful.

00:03:32.540 So, you take your dice, and I roll mine.

00:03:34.920 Got it.

00:03:35.320 Four, three.

00:03:37.240 Four and three.

00:03:38.440 Interesting.

00:03:39.260 Okay.

00:03:40.780 So, how much of this is math, and how much of it is reading the other person?

00:03:45.920 Because, you know, poker is a lot of reading the other person, right?

00:03:47.980 But chess could be more math and not necessarily reading the other person.

00:03:50.700 How much of this is also reading the other person?

00:03:52.280 Again, it's a little bit in the middle between the two.

00:03:55.120 So, in terms of reading the other person, why it matters in backgammon, right?

00:03:59.020 When I start playing new player, and I realize not just level of his game, but also his tendencies, right?

00:04:05.020 So, after a few games, I kind of get a feel, either he's too careful, you know, like the

00:04:11.360 sure thing, or he's very aggressive.

00:04:13.360 So, they don't hit you too much.

00:04:14.600 Right.

00:04:14.780 So, they're playing safe.

00:04:15.480 And also, the cube is involved, right?

00:04:16.940 Got it.

00:04:17.180 The cube is multiplied, you know, the cost of the game, right?

00:04:20.800 So, if somebody gives you a cube at two, and another person accepts, it means that we're

00:04:25.120 playing for a double stake.

00:04:26.500 And it's a big part of the skill of the game.

00:04:28.460 And when I notice that player play very aggressive cube or very passive cube, that changes my behavior

00:04:34.220 over the board.

00:04:35.220 You know, if it's very aggressive, I probably going to give him, you know, a little later.

00:04:39.640 Or if person is very passive, I'm going to be playing much more aggressively with him,

00:04:44.000 just to maximize the equity of my game.

00:04:46.400 Got it.

00:04:47.400 So, you're adjusting.

00:04:48.400 You're adjusting according to player.

00:04:49.400 Absolutely.

00:04:50.400 All the time.

00:04:51.400 Interesting.

00:04:52.400 Yes.

00:04:53.400 This is a big part.

00:04:54.400 Very interesting.

00:04:55.400 It's a big part to generate a good future.

00:04:59.300 I can see for a few moves, first moves, Patrick actually knows what he's doing.

00:05:04.240 That makes me think now, you know.

00:05:05.960 Let's see what's going to happen here, man.

00:05:08.980 How did you do against your father?

00:05:10.300 Oh, my father kicks my ass.

00:05:12.220 But you know, I would say now, I'm probably better than my father.

00:05:15.020 But it took a while.

00:05:16.020 It took a while.

00:05:17.020 I mean, you know, Middle Eastern, man.

00:05:18.020 You get together.

00:05:19.020 They would play Rami.

00:05:20.020 Would you play in cafes?

00:05:21.020 Because I have a lot of friends on Facebook from Iran.

00:05:23.640 And I see how they play because they have those outside cafes and people play on the

00:05:27.800 street.

00:05:28.800 Did you do that?

00:05:29.800 Yeah.

00:05:30.800 The same thing.

00:05:31.800 You know, I play with my dad.

00:05:32.800 I play with my sister.

00:05:33.800 I play with the family.

00:05:35.880 And it gets loud.

00:05:37.460 Like I said, they were playing Rami and they would play Rami, Backgammon, I think a couple

00:05:42.240 other games.

00:05:43.240 But it was very, very competitive to play the game.

00:05:45.520 Very good number.

00:05:46.520 And good play.

00:05:47.520 But I got lucky.

00:05:49.520 Didn't let you go.

00:05:51.520 You're locking me in there, huh?

00:05:53.260 Oh, lucky.

00:05:54.260 Luck plays huge role.

00:05:55.260 Like this double five, it's called a joker, which means the best possible number over

00:05:59.460 the board.

00:06:00.460 Yeah.

00:06:01.460 And you play it correctly again.

00:06:05.640 So so far, how many errors have I made based on the moves I'm making?

00:06:08.220 Actually zero.

00:06:09.220 Really?

00:06:10.220 Yeah.

00:06:11.220 Interesting.

00:06:12.220 So so far, it's zero errors.

00:06:13.220 Yeah.

00:06:14.220 You play so far perfectly.

00:06:15.220 But then also, you know, it starts, the cube starts playing.

00:06:16.220 That's what changes the game.

00:06:17.220 Yeah.

00:06:18.220 The cube, when to take it or when to pass it.

00:06:21.380 And that multiplies the cost of the game.

00:06:23.420 Got it.

00:06:24.420 So right now wouldn't be a bad time for me to put the cube up.

00:06:26.420 Right?

00:06:27.420 Because if you're here.

00:06:28.420 Actually, this is about the perfect time to give you.

00:06:29.420 Yeah.

00:06:30.420 I think so.

00:06:31.420 You're way ahead, so-called the race, which means you're much closer home than I am.

00:06:35.620 Yeah.

00:06:36.620 But I still have enough of a game to take it, which means it's one of, you know, one of the

00:06:40.820 best times to give a key.

00:06:41.620 Yeah.

00:06:42.620 I don't think it's that far of a lead that I have on you right now.

00:06:45.620 In terms of, in terms of the so-called peep count, you know, the race, I think you have

00:06:48.820 a big lead.

00:06:49.820 But because you have to still clear this point, you probably need a double to do.

00:06:53.220 Yeah, I do.

00:06:54.220 Because you're going to, you're probably not going to move this year for too long.

00:06:56.220 Right.

00:06:57.220 You're going to wait until this is staying.

00:06:58.220 I'm going to wait forever.

00:06:59.220 Yeah.

00:07:00.220 Absolutely.

00:07:01.220 Absolutely.

00:07:02.220 Yeah.

00:07:03.220 Because this is my chance, actually.

00:07:04.220 Okay.

00:07:05.220 So then I have to kind of lock up in case I get lucky as well.

00:07:07.220 Yeah.

00:07:08.220 But also, you asked me before that backgammon, you know, what part luck plays, you know?

00:07:13.320 It plays a big part, but like I said, not as big as in poker.

00:07:16.680 Also because it's not a sure thing like chess, it makes backgammon so much popular for players

00:07:22.580 who like to gamble.

00:07:23.660 As you know, it used to be in the 80s and 90s, it used to be an incredibly popular game among

00:07:27.400 rich and famous in America.

00:07:29.120 Hugh Hefner, you know, play, but it was a choice game in the Playboy mansion.

00:07:32.120 Yeah.

00:07:33.120 Also, big time money people in Manhattan all play backgammon.

00:07:38.120 I still remember times when, you know, some of the finance guys from Wall Street would

00:07:43.120 come to the clubs and bring like, you know, case with like a hundred thousand dollars or

00:07:48.120 a million dollars and play for that.

00:07:50.120 That big of a game, million dollar games.

00:07:51.120 Yeah.

00:07:52.120 And play for like 10,000 a point with bunch of the very strong players who would combine

00:07:57.120 their forces against them.

00:07:59.120 So, and also, you know, even now, you know, the game maybe lost a little bit of popularity

00:08:02.120 compared to the 90s, but it's coming back now a little bit.

00:08:05.120 And still big names play this game.

00:08:07.120 I mean, like, just to name a few, Pamela Anderson plays backgammon.

00:08:11.120 Pamela Anderson plays backgammon.

00:08:12.120 Yeah.

00:08:13.120 Leonardo DiCaprio.

00:08:14.120 And Lin-Manuel Miranda.

00:08:16.120 Hugh Jackman.

00:08:17.120 Just names.

00:08:18.120 Wolverine plays backgammon.

00:08:19.120 Just on top of my head.

00:08:20.120 I mean, if Wolverine plays backgammon, you got to play backgammon, right?

00:08:23.120 Yeah.

00:08:24.120 And I give lessons to some of the European celebrities, you know, over Skype or it just,

00:08:30.120 it's still a game of rich and famous.

00:08:32.120 You know, no coincidence that the world championship every year takes place in Monte Carlo, you know,

00:08:37.120 where the money is and where the posh is, you know, you know, depends on where it is

00:08:41.120 in the world, right?

00:08:42.120 In some countries like Turkey, Iran, Israel, everyone can play backgammon.

00:08:46.120 You know, it's not, it's not like elite game, you know, but-

00:08:49.120 But in America it is.

00:08:50.120 In America it is.

00:08:51.120 Why do you think the game doesn't have a tournament?

00:08:52.120 Like in America, as big as like poker has a big tournament.

00:08:55.120 What's the difference between this?

00:08:56.120 Is it the fact that it's eight players and maybe takes a little longer?

00:08:59.120 It's actually a great, great question.

00:09:01.120 First of all, American does have federation, backgammon federation, USBGF,

00:09:05.120 and they do own the American backgammon tour, which is a series of like 16 tournaments,

00:09:12.120 you know, around the year where the-

00:09:14.120 In the States.

00:09:15.120 In the States.

00:09:16.120 Yeah.

00:09:17.120 Yeah.

00:09:18.120 There are like two in Vegas, you know, one in New York, not as big as poker.

00:09:21.120 And I think, again, it's just my opinion, but I think the main reason is because poker

00:09:25.120 is the game that every American learn from their childhood.

00:09:28.120 They play in the families.

00:09:29.120 They understand.

00:09:30.120 Also, poker has simpler rules than backgammon.

00:09:33.120 It's easier to understand the poker-

00:09:35.120 You think poker is easier to understand than backgammon?

00:09:37.120 Yeah.

00:09:38.120 Really?

00:09:39.120 Because they all play from the childhood.

00:09:40.120 I mean, it takes a little bit of more of a skill, at least on the amateur level, to understand

00:09:45.120 what's going on over the board.

00:09:46.120 I can see that.

00:09:47.120 I can see that.

00:09:48.120 But also poker is also, you know, was built on a lot of money involved in tournaments.

00:09:53.120 Nothing, you know, and I still think that backgammon can go through the same path.

00:09:56.120 You think it can go through the same path?

00:09:57.120 Yes.

00:09:58.120 Yes.

00:09:59.120 And a big part of the poker elite actually comes from backgammon.

00:10:01.120 I told you, like, one of my friends, like Eric Seidel, you know, one of the best tournament

00:10:04.120 players in poker.

00:10:05.120 He used to be full-time-

00:10:06.120 I talked to Phil Helmut.

00:10:07.120 He talked about backgammon.

00:10:08.120 He said he likes backgammon.

00:10:09.120 He said he likes backgammon.

00:10:10.120 He played in childhood.

00:10:11.120 Yeah, he told me about backgammon.

00:10:12.120 Phil Ivey knows how to play backgammon.

00:10:13.120 Like-

00:10:14.120 Wow, Phil Ivey?

00:10:15.120 Phil Ivey knows how to play backgammon.

00:10:16.120 Yes, he took backgammon lessons.

00:10:17.120 Interesting.

00:10:18.120 Yes, he knows how to play.

00:10:19.120 So, I'm just saying a big part of the poker elite, you know, comes from backgammon and

00:10:23.120 they know how to play.

00:10:24.120 Like Dale Harrington and some other famous poker players.

00:10:27.120 Now, let me ask you.

00:10:28.120 Interesting.

00:10:29.120 Why did you do it that way?

00:10:30.120 Did you keep it out so if sixes and five comes, you don't have to wait because wow,

00:10:33.120 what a move you just made.

00:10:34.120 That's so interesting what you just did.

00:10:36.120 It's a great recognition from you, so it means that you understand the game.

00:10:39.120 Unbelievable what you just did.

00:10:40.120 Yeah, I'm saving sixes, yes, so I don't have to run from there.

00:10:42.120 That is so amazing.

00:10:44.120 So, you are allowing me to run out of my sixes versus yours.

00:10:47.120 So, if I get a six and a one, I'm screwed.

00:10:49.120 You leave a shot immediately.

00:10:50.120 It doesn't mean you're going to lose.

00:10:51.120 Yeah, but you're about to lock it up.

00:10:52.120 You lock it up.

00:10:53.120 I'm done anyways.

00:10:54.120 Okay.

00:10:55.120 But that's my chance.

00:10:56.120 Yeah, I see.

00:10:57.120 So, before we go more into the game and you, Goldman, because I'm really curious about

00:10:59.120 your mind with Goldman Sachs because investments, I mean, we're in the world, so I want to know

00:11:02.120 what you're thinking about.

00:11:03.120 But walk me through what it was like for you as you, you know, you grew up in Russia.

00:11:07.120 You grew up in a government that was communism.

00:11:09.120 A lot of people never lived in a communistic country.

00:11:11.120 They don't know what it is.

00:11:12.120 There's some parts of it that sounds like it's noble.

00:11:14.120 There's some parts of it that doesn't, and now you live in America, you work for Goldman

00:11:17.120 Sachs, which is like the epitome of capitalism, and for me, from Iran coming here.

00:11:22.120 What was it like for you growing up in a communistic nation?

00:11:25.120 My feeling always is that it's two completely different, like almost separate lives, you

00:11:30.120 know, that one is not continuation.

00:11:32.120 Yeah, you played.

00:11:33.120 Yeah, I played a wrong.

00:11:34.120 Yeah, you're right.

00:11:35.120 So one is not continuation of another, and rather it's a completely separate life because

00:11:40.120 it's almost surreal to think that in a lifetime of one person, you can have, you know, like

00:11:45.120 grew up in a communist country when every morning you start from listening to the political

00:11:52.120 propaganda, even starting from the very early age in the school.

00:11:56.120 What do you mean by that?

00:11:57.120 Like, what did it look like?

00:11:58.120 Like, we would come to the school, right?

00:12:00.120 And we would have to line up, and that would be beginning of the school day, right?

00:12:04.120 Everybody would line up in a big, big room, and some political propaganda, like a school-dedicated

00:12:11.120 person would give us an overview of the political day that happened before, would say something

00:12:17.120 like, oh, United States, you know, just did these bad things again, and this, and we stopped

00:12:22.120 them here.

00:12:23.120 It was just like a pure propaganda thing, you know?

00:12:25.120 It's almost like 1984, you know, one of my favorites, by the way.

00:12:29.120 And they just, you know, they tried to put certain things in your mind, like brainwash

00:12:33.120 you, you know, like just so to make some kind of a zombie out of you.

00:12:38.120 And then suddenly, out of nowhere, from the top, it was not even revolution from the bottom,

00:12:42.120 right?

00:12:43.120 Soviet Union just collapsed on itself, mostly from the top.

00:12:45.120 They just told us in like 1989 that we don't have the same country.

00:12:50.120 It's not socialism anymore.

00:12:51.120 It's suddenly democracy.

00:12:53.120 We were all watching this amazing TV production, which used to be so filtered, where people would

00:12:59.120 go to like a new Congress would gather and actually discuss the real issues, you know,

00:13:04.120 like real democracy started.

00:13:06.120 And it was like the biggest hit on TV that I ever saw because the whole country was watching

00:13:10.120 those political debates and couldn't believe that their own, you know, eyes that it's actually

00:13:14.120 happening.

00:13:15.120 Wow.

00:13:16.120 And this is under Gorbachev, right?

00:13:17.120 Yes.

00:13:18.120 Yes.

00:13:19.120 It's 1989.

00:13:20.120 So, and for a few years, it was like a very surreal time.

00:13:21.120 We still, we still had no idea what the money is, what the real job is.

00:13:25.120 But at least discussion started about where the country would go.

00:13:29.120 And also the borders open, borders open, right?

00:13:32.120 We used to not be able to travel anywhere.

00:13:34.120 And suddenly when I'm still…

00:13:35.120 What does that mean though?

00:13:36.120 You say it so normally, like to somebody that doesn't know, you will not be able to travel

00:13:41.120 anywhere.

00:13:42.120 You couldn't leave Russia.

00:13:43.120 You couldn't just not only leave Russia.

00:13:45.120 Even inside Soviet Union, you pretty much would have a place where you would be, you

00:13:50.120 would have to leave permanently.

00:13:51.120 You can't just freely change the city unless you would find a job and somebody on Communist

00:13:56.120 Party would approve your movement.

00:13:59.120 It was not a free movement inside its own country, but let alone the overseas.

00:14:04.120 So, yeah, you could not travel freely overseas.

00:14:07.120 That would be impossible.

00:14:08.120 Right.

00:14:09.120 And suddenly like when I was 19, everything changes, right?

00:14:12.120 It's like in the movie, you know, it's impossible to believe.

00:14:15.120 Our generation, my generation is so, so lucky because we got a taste of this like an old

00:14:21.120 country, you know, which had its own like advantages, you know, like education was very

00:14:26.120 good, for example, right?

00:14:27.120 Medicine was free for everybody.

00:14:28.120 Was it really?

00:14:29.120 Yes.

00:14:30.120 So you are saying it was really good.

00:14:31.120 Yes, because it helped me, right?

00:14:32.120 Interesting.

00:14:33.120 That's part why I succeeded.

00:14:34.120 I mean, you went to St. Petersburg, right?

00:14:35.120 Right.

00:14:36.120 That's why part of why I succeeded coming here.

00:14:38.120 Right.

00:14:39.120 But at the same time, there was no opportunity, right?

00:14:41.120 No opportunity to make money, no internal competition.

00:14:43.120 So what's the motivation though?

00:14:44.120 I mean, if there's no competition, so why would you even go to school though?

00:14:47.120 It was like, almost like, first of all, if you don't go to school, you may be prosecuted.

00:14:51.120 So there was a system where everybody have to go through the same process.

00:14:54.120 So was it almost like the system that was forced?

00:14:57.120 Yeah.

00:14:58.120 That's what I was going to say.

00:14:59.120 They forced you to do a lot of things.

00:15:00.120 Pretty much everything.

00:15:01.120 Pretty much everything was forced.

00:15:02.120 You know, Joseph, at one point you loved the system.

00:15:04.120 Like you were diehard Russia, communism.

00:15:06.120 Were you ever or no?

00:15:07.120 Actually, myself never.

00:15:09.120 But I was very different all the time.

00:15:11.120 You know, I was from a Jewish family and we were always like, they called them dissidents,

00:15:15.120 right?

00:15:16.120 Which means people who have different opinion.

00:15:18.120 There were very small minority of the country who have those different opinions, but we were

00:15:22.120 one of them, right?

00:15:23.120 We never believed actually the communist party.

00:15:25.120 We never followed them.

00:15:27.120 You know, we had relatives in different countries.

00:15:29.120 Actually, my grandmother was living in New York somehow.

00:15:32.120 And so we knew, we had a little bit of information how life.

00:15:35.120 Could you talk to people?

00:15:36.120 Was there a phone service to talk?

00:15:37.120 No, no.

00:15:38.120 Let me get this right.

00:15:39.120 So phone call, you can't talk to anybody in America.

00:15:41.120 So you can't even find that if America is a great country.

00:15:43.120 No, you could send the letter, but everything was filtered, right?

00:15:46.120 You could not like freely.

00:15:47.120 They would open every letter that would come to you.

00:15:49.120 They would open every letter that came in.

00:15:51.120 Yeah.

00:15:52.120 And would decide whether to give it to you or not.

00:15:54.120 Oh my gosh.

00:15:55.120 We have still countries like that, right?

00:15:56.120 I know.

00:15:57.120 North Korea, I mean, for example.

00:15:58.120 But I don't think people fully understand what that really means.

00:16:01.120 Like, imagine you can't, like, think about how much you hated when somebody opens your

00:16:05.120 letter.

00:16:06.120 Like, imagine someone, that's like privacy.

00:16:07.120 Why'd you open my letter, right?

00:16:08.120 No, no one had any privacy, no.

00:16:10.120 That was not even in discussion.

00:16:12.120 And at least we understood the rules of the game.

00:16:15.120 Many people didn't, and they pay for that.

00:16:17.120 But this new opportunity arise, right?

00:16:19.120 When the new country, and everything started developing very quickly.

00:16:22.120 89.

00:16:23.120 Yeah, yeah.

00:16:24.120 I actually remember that I opened one of the first real estate agencies in Moscow with

00:16:28.120 two of my friends.

00:16:29.120 Suddenly we made our first money.

00:16:31.120 We couldn't believe it.

00:16:32.120 We never saw a dollar.

00:16:33.120 And suddenly we calculated.

00:16:34.120 I remember I was sitting in one of the first banks in Moscow, you know, calculating like

00:16:39.120 $100,000 with my hand.

00:16:41.120 It was just like, it was a crazy experience.

00:16:43.120 And then my grandmother got, you know, ill in New York.

00:16:46.120 So I came here to look after her.

00:16:49.120 And in the process was like learning English, trying to see what I can do here.

00:16:54.120 And I actually found a job as a computer programmer.

00:16:56.120 Another financial company, SunGuard.

00:16:58.120 I was a trading system brass at the time.

00:17:01.120 They were, they actually had about 60%, they handled about 60% of the NASDAQ trades.

00:17:05.120 I worked there for like seven, eight years.

00:17:07.120 And in the process also, I finished the master's degree in NYU for financial engineering.

00:17:12.120 Here?

00:17:13.120 Yeah.

00:17:14.120 At this point, you were speaking English or no?

00:17:15.120 In Russia, did you speak English?

00:17:16.120 No, no, of course.

00:17:17.120 Yeah, I picked up, actually, Bagram helped me to pick up English on the street.

00:17:20.120 That's amazing.

00:17:21.120 I learned English like a child, you know, on the street.

00:17:23.120 I never read books.

00:17:24.120 I never, like, I was just playing Bagram.

00:17:26.120 They cursed me.

00:17:27.120 And that was, that was my school, you know.

00:17:29.120 I was like a Bronx, but yeah, I was like a Bronx kid, you know, sitting over the board,

00:17:33.120 you know, and just like learning.

00:17:34.120 And the only person, you know who was your grandma when you came in?

00:17:36.120 Yeah, yeah.

00:17:37.120 Unbelievable.

00:17:38.120 You know, and life development, that's master's degree from NYU, actually.

00:17:42.120 That's what opened the door for me to Goldman, you know, where I went through different, you

00:17:46.120 know, few different departments.

00:17:48.120 And my final one was for the last four years was the electronic market making desk.

00:17:52.120 You know, the market maker is, for people if they don't know it, that's the financial institution

00:17:58.120 that responsible for providing two side quotes for, you know, if I'm a market maker for

00:18:02.120 Apple, it means that 20, you know, not 24 seven, but during the market open, I must provide

00:18:07.120 two side quote.

00:18:08.120 Usually it's a little bit wider than the market, but at least it ensures the orderly market

00:18:13.120 liquidity.

00:18:14.120 That's what market makers do.

00:18:15.120 Market makers do, they provide liquidity to the market.

00:18:18.120 In case of like a big market events, there has to be somebody who would be selling and

00:18:22.120 buying when everybody's scared.

00:18:24.120 You know, that's what market, sometimes they pay price for that, but big institutions do

00:18:28.120 that to attract clients.

00:18:29.120 They show that it's a big, you know.

00:18:31.120 So you're dealing with money all the time for 11 years.

00:18:34.120 Pretty much, yes.

00:18:35.120 So going back to Russia, one of the topics Gerard and I talk about a lot is our educational

00:18:39.120 system here that we have in America.

00:18:41.120 How, and I remember math being very big in the Middle East.

00:18:44.120 How much did Russia focus on math?

00:18:46.120 I'm curious because I don't see math being that big of a thing here in America as it was

00:18:50.120 to the Middle East.

00:18:51.120 I agree.

00:18:52.120 And that's actually, I mean, it's bad for America, but it's a blessing for us.

00:18:57.120 The reason is, you know, the math, actually one probably single reason why so many Russians

00:19:03.120 and French people that I know and people from Middle East actually do well in America.

00:19:07.120 I have friends who got to the university here and they were not even like specializing in

00:19:12.120 math back in Russia.

00:19:13.120 They were just okay.

00:19:14.120 But compared to the average student here, they were so good.

00:19:18.120 They were tutoring.

00:19:19.120 And the university would give them free education just because they help other students with

00:19:23.120 math.

00:19:24.120 Yeah.

00:19:25.120 I think the math education here is pretty sad, you know.

00:19:27.120 It has to be improved.

00:19:29.120 And you believe that because you remember like in Russia, math was like very early.

00:19:32.120 Oh, it's everything.

00:19:33.120 It's everything.

00:19:34.120 Because sometimes you hear people saying things like, yeah, I'm just not a math person, you

00:19:38.120 know, or I'm just not this.

00:19:39.120 Yeah, I know.

00:19:40.120 And math is really, it's not like people think of math as like such a sophisticated discipline.

00:19:46.120 It's not.

00:19:47.120 It's really a pretty simple key to all more sophisticated sciences like physics, like chemistry,

00:19:52.120 you know.

00:19:53.120 But math is a key.

00:19:54.120 It's a tool which helps you to figure out things.

00:19:57.120 And without having like a simple tool, life is not the same.

00:20:00.120 You know, you just, you go back to Middle Ages, you know, you have to be, you know, we

00:20:04.120 have to move forward.

00:20:05.120 And that's what America is good for.

00:20:07.120 They attract all the people like me and you, you know, who are willing to work and who can

00:20:12.120 help it to move forward.

00:20:13.120 Do you remember the day you came to America?

00:20:16.120 Absolutely.

00:20:17.120 So tell me about it.

00:20:18.120 First time actually.

00:20:19.120 That's funny that you ask because it was September 29, 1995.

00:20:22.120 And why I also remember that it was the first time I was flying and I was, we were flying

00:20:26.120 from Moscow through Amsterdam and it was a two-decker and I was like amazing.

00:20:30.120 Like I never, never saw such, such thing before.

00:20:32.120 Yeah.

00:20:33.120 It was actually very surreal, you know, just to land.

00:20:35.120 What was your first thing?

00:20:36.120 Like what, cause I remember like for me, when I came to America, my first naive reaction,

00:20:40.120 it was November 28, 1990.

00:20:41.120 And when I came, I remember vividly.

00:20:44.120 I remember the date.

00:20:45.120 I remember it.

00:20:46.120 You said September 25th, 29, 1995.

00:20:47.120 Yeah.

00:20:48.120 For me, November 29, 1990.

00:20:50.120 When I landed.

00:20:51.120 Okay.

00:20:52.120 The innocent eyes, like I was looking for Rocky.

00:20:55.120 I'm like, where is Sylvester Stallone?

00:20:56.120 Really?

00:20:57.120 So was there any-

00:20:58.120 I had no idea what to look for really.

00:21:00.120 I had no clue.

00:21:01.120 Because see, at the time when me and you moved, information didn't flow through the countries

00:21:07.120 as freely as now.

00:21:08.120 That's right.

00:21:09.120 We keep forgetting.

00:21:10.120 But the cell phone, my first cell phone actually wasn't even my first year in America.

00:21:14.120 It was 1999 when I got my first job in SunGuard.

00:21:17.120 They actually gave me the job, you know, cellular phone.

00:21:21.120 That was my first mobile phone.

00:21:23.120 Internet, everything.

00:21:24.120 You know, it's actually, you know, developed over the last 15, 20 years.

00:21:28.120 Before then, information didn't flow as freely between the countries, you know.

00:21:32.120 We didn't know much about the world.

00:21:33.120 You know how sometimes you hear people say white privileges if you're born in America and

00:21:38.120 you're white, yeah, white privileges.

00:21:39.120 I had this debate three days ago in Argentina, okay, with this guy, a good friend of mine,

00:21:44.120 Chris.

00:21:45.120 And he says, Patrick, you know, you got to realize America, you know, don't you think

00:21:48.120 there's white privileges?

00:21:49.120 And I said, you know, honestly, I think in America there's immigrant privileges.

00:21:53.120 He says, what do you mean?

00:21:54.120 I says, I think I have an edge over you.

00:21:56.120 And he says, what do you mean by that?

00:21:57.120 I said, you don't realize how amazing your country is.

00:21:59.620 I know how amazing this system is.

00:22:02.120 I know how this can change my life.

00:22:04.120 That's my words to many people.

00:22:06.120 Sometimes people forget.

00:22:07.120 So for you, you know, you've seen communism, you've seen capitalism.

00:22:11.120 In what ways do you see the form of economy of capitalism, you know, in what ways for yourself,

00:22:16.120 from your eyes?

00:22:17.120 Because many people can read about it, but you've lived both lives.

00:22:20.120 And it's not like you left Russia when you were two years old.

00:22:23.120 Absolutely.

00:22:24.120 You left when you were, you know, in your 20s.

00:22:25.120 So you lived there for a while.

00:22:26.120 It's not like you don't know what the difference is, right?

00:22:28.120 What are the biggest differences for you?

00:22:29.120 From you growing up in a place where you can watch TV, phones, nothing, controlled.

00:22:33.120 Your father worked at a company with 5,000 employees reporting your father.

00:22:36.120 So a person like that in America would be making a million dollar your income.

00:22:39.120 He was a really poor guy.

00:22:40.620 And he's a really poor guy.

00:22:41.620 And he's a really poor guy.

00:22:42.620 And then you come to America.

00:22:43.620 We have nothing.

00:22:44.620 What was the biggest difference for you seeing that?

00:22:45.620 It's just like, it's really a couple of very simple things, you know, which you can

00:22:48.620 only appreciate when you have background like mine and yours, right?

00:22:51.620 Freedom of travel and opportunity.

00:22:53.620 That's what really it is, you know?

00:22:54.620 That's what it comes to, right?

00:22:55.620 And that's what socialism or communism takes away from you.

00:22:58.620 That's why I'm actually a little paranoid.

00:23:00.620 You know, anytime I hear socialism, new socialism or any socialism, I get scared.

00:23:05.620 You know, I like, I have a difficult time to support anything that have now that have

00:23:10.620 having this background that have socialism in it.

00:23:13.620 It gives you anxiety as well?

00:23:14.620 Yeah.

00:23:15.620 It gives me anxiety as well.

00:23:16.620 Yeah.

00:23:17.620 I'm just, I want to run.

00:23:18.620 The things that socialism takes away from you is the opportunity to be the person that

00:23:21.620 you can be both professionally and personally really, to say things that you want to say,

00:23:27.620 to travel, to actually know the world, you know, because we have very short life.

00:23:30.620 Yeah.

00:23:31.620 People don't realize our life is so, so short, you know, and it's only one.

00:23:34.620 I know people, some people believe it's more than one, but I do think it's one.

00:23:38.620 There's many things.

00:23:39.620 You want to, first of all, to be able to reach your potential, right?

00:23:43.620 And to see different things.

00:23:44.620 And unless you learn different cultures and see different places and have this opportunity

00:23:50.620 to reflect those cultures on you, I think it's very difficult to, you know, your limit

00:23:55.620 is very low, you know, if you live in your own small bubble.

00:23:58.620 So how does somebody that hasn't experienced what you've experienced, right?

00:24:03.620 You know, you lived in Russia.

00:24:04.620 You know the difference.

00:24:05.620 How does somebody who's in America that thinks we should go to maybe a system closer to Europe

00:24:10.620 or all of that stuff, how can they know the difference?

00:24:13.620 Can they read a book?

00:24:14.620 Could they watch a movie?

00:24:15.620 Much more difficult.

00:24:16.620 It is difficult when you not experience yourself.

00:24:18.620 Like I said, I mean, like there are books, of course.

00:24:20.620 I mean, you can read, you know, I mean, like I said, 1984 is my favorite one.

00:24:25.620 But it's extreme, of course.

00:24:26.620 It's utopia in this book, you know.

00:24:28.620 Normal countries don't go to that kind of level.

00:24:31.620 But we can also observe, right?

00:24:32.620 We can.

00:24:33.620 People like to bring some good example of socialism, which is like Northern Europe, like Denmark

00:24:38.620 or Sweden.

00:24:39.620 Yes.

00:24:40.620 I'm a world traveler because of back.

00:24:41.620 I mean, you were just in Moscow three days ago.

00:24:43.620 Yes.

00:24:44.620 Yes.

00:24:45.620 Moscow and Spain and Canada.

00:24:46.620 And I've been to Denmark many times.

00:24:48.620 I have good friends from Denmark and Sweden, those two countries that usually been brought

00:24:53.620 as an example of great things, you know, like socialism.

00:24:57.620 Actually, people know that, you know, people who live there currently, you know, I don't

00:25:01.620 think they're that happy with the, you know, the way their country developed.

00:25:05.620 Though, and also I think it's very difficult to compare small country, you know, with a

00:25:09.620 mono nation, pretty much like Denmark or Sweden, with a big multinational, you know, country

00:25:14.620 like Russia or America.

00:25:15.620 I think we, you know, we need to develop our own system.

00:25:19.620 Also, we can look at the negative examples like Venezuela, actually like Brazil now a

00:25:24.620 little bit too, you know, which is about-

00:25:25.620 They've got some political stuff going on right now.

00:25:26.620 Yeah, yeah.

00:25:27.620 They've got a new president they're looking at.

00:25:28.620 Yeah, yeah.

00:25:29.620 Which is like way, way on the right, you know, a guy I would never vote for.

00:25:33.620 But the reason he actually even came to picture is because the dissatisfaction that the country

00:25:39.620 have with, you know, with economical development that been brought by, you know, pro-socialist

00:25:45.620 governments and everything.

00:25:46.620 But again, it's my position, you know, like I said, I'm not a political person at all,

00:25:51.620 but from experience, yes, I'm-

00:25:53.620 Yeah, I'm always curious.

00:25:54.620 From capitalism.

00:25:55.620 Any time I see somebody, if you want to roll the dice, any time I see somebody that's

00:25:59.620 from, you know, Russia or any of that environment, I ask myself, what was the reasoning for coming?

00:26:06.620 Do you like?

00:26:07.620 Do you not like?

00:26:08.620 I had a person I was, she was my shopper at the Nordstrom's.

00:26:11.620 And we would always get along.

00:26:12.620 We'd always talk.

00:26:13.620 And she would always, we were always fascinated by each other.

00:26:16.620 And she had a son that was 24 years old.

00:26:18.620 And I would say, so tell me, what do you think about, I'm sorry, what do you think about,

00:26:24.620 so tell me why?

00:26:25.620 Why is that a good one?

00:26:26.620 Because I'm getting closer for 5-5 or 5-6 versus-

00:26:28.620 Because you're still a little bit ahead in the race.

00:26:30.620 Yeah.

00:26:31.620 Which means you just, you don't want to have contact.

00:26:33.620 You want to just bring safely your checkers around and move them out.

00:26:36.620 I'm looking more for contact because I was behind in the race.

00:26:39.620 The race is much closer now than it was.

00:26:41.620 Much closer nowadays, yeah.

00:26:42.620 So that's why it's actually debatable now.

00:26:43.620 You can actually cover the ace and just wait for my six just to get a shot yourself.

00:26:47.620 Yeah.

00:26:48.620 It is closer now.

00:26:49.620 But you're still ahead in the race.

00:26:51.620 So I think it is a correct move.

00:26:52.620 It'll be interesting to see what happens.

00:26:53.620 And you're still holding me here.

00:26:54.620 Yeah.

00:26:55.620 It's not that easy to run for me.

00:26:56.620 So, yeah, because if you get, you get a 6 and you are single.

00:26:57.620 Unless I hold 6-5.

00:26:58.620 6-5, it's done.

00:26:59.620 That's good.

00:27:00.620 You're out.

00:27:01.620 Not done, but I run.

00:27:02.620 Yeah.

00:27:03.620 So, and he gets the 6-5.

00:27:05.620 Speaking of the day, when you are as good as you, you can call the stuff.

00:27:10.620 I know it's scary, you know, when a good player can call the number.

00:27:13.620 Are you serious?

00:27:14.620 That's the scariest thing.

00:27:15.620 So I asked her, I said, what did you like about Russia?

00:27:17.620 And she says, honestly, I miss communism.

00:27:19.620 I said, why do you miss it?

00:27:20.620 She says, because there was a big community aspect to it.

00:27:23.620 We would always be together all the time.

00:27:24.620 And nobody was driven by money.

00:27:26.620 So it was about family.

00:27:27.620 It was about us spending time together.

00:27:29.620 In America, you're so competitive that you don't have any time to spend time with your family.

00:27:33.620 This was the element, she said, where I said, you know, maybe that's a good argument to make on that side.

00:27:38.620 But she said, yeah, in Russia, we'd come home.

00:27:40.620 We'd have food together.

00:27:41.620 We'd hang out together.

00:27:42.620 We'd go fishing together.

00:27:43.620 But then she would, I said, so do you not believe in capitalism?

00:27:45.620 She says, I'm mixed now.

00:27:47.620 I'm in the middle.

00:27:48.620 There are some elements I like because they kept our family together.

00:27:50.620 Now my family is divided.

00:27:51.620 You know, it all depends on the personal story, right?

00:27:53.620 Always.

00:27:54.620 Like life doesn't have simple answers.

00:27:56.620 Like in Russia, by the way, and in some of the Eastern Europe too, not just in Russia,

00:28:01.620 communism or socialism makes a little bit of a comeback.

00:28:04.620 You know, there are some of the pro-socialist parties that gain more votes now.

00:28:08.620 Like even in like pre-Baltic and Latvia, you know, which used to be very, very anti-Soviet.

00:28:13.620 Okay, seems like I'm going to kill you now.

00:28:16.620 But, you know, so, but it's normal, you know.

00:28:20.620 You shouldn't take it.

00:28:21.620 No, no, no.

00:28:22.620 You came.

00:28:23.620 So you're putting the four now.

00:28:24.620 Yes, yeah.

00:28:25.620 Because I think I'm ahead in the race now.

00:28:26.620 I think you are ahead of the race.

00:28:27.620 Let me see.

00:28:28.620 But by sizable, not mine.

00:28:29.620 Yeah, because I have a lot of six.

00:28:31.620 We have two checkers off.

00:28:32.620 But you got a lead though.

00:28:33.620 You see, people who play backgammon, they actually can calculate so-called pips, right?

00:28:37.620 Okay.

00:28:38.620 So every spot on backgammon is a pip, one pip.

00:28:41.620 Okay.

00:28:42.620 So the way I count this race, right?

00:28:44.620 So we have both two checkers off.

00:28:46.620 Yeah.

00:28:47.620 Which means we have same amount checkers left on the board, right?

00:28:49.620 So I would compare, you know, our positions geometrically.

00:28:53.620 For example, on the six point, this is a six point, right?

00:28:55.620 You have three extra checkers compared to mine.

00:28:58.620 And I have three extra checkers on the three point, which means I'm up nine pips.

00:29:02.620 Three by three is nine.

00:29:03.620 Mm-hmm.

00:29:04.620 Rest looks the same except for this checker and this checker.

00:29:06.620 Another three pips.

00:29:07.620 Mm-hmm.

00:29:08.620 So I'm up 12 pips.

00:29:09.620 That's a lot.

00:29:10.620 Which in this position is a lot.

00:29:11.620 Is a lot.

00:29:12.620 So the way I'm looking at it is I'm going 24, 39.

00:29:14.620 You can do that too.

00:29:15.620 That's how I'm doing it.

00:29:16.620 But you're doing it faster the way you did it.

00:29:17.620 Yours was faster.

00:29:18.620 Yes.

00:29:19.620 Because when you're playing for money, you don't want to show that you're counting pips.

00:29:22.620 Got it.

00:29:23.620 You want to do it seamlessly, like you're just having fun.

00:29:25.620 So the way you did it was seamless.

00:29:26.620 Right.

00:29:27.620 So I have to take it, right?

00:29:28.620 Because if I don't take it, 12 is a big number.

00:29:30.620 I have to get sixes.

00:29:31.620 That'd be six number 24.

00:29:33.620 You get a five, six, 11.

00:29:34.620 Then we're even.

00:29:35.620 The chances of that, I'm going to, I'll take the one.

00:29:37.620 So you should pass it.

00:29:38.620 You should save.

00:29:39.620 That's it.

00:29:40.620 I am passing.

00:29:41.620 Yeah.

00:29:42.620 You should save it.

00:29:43.620 But you know, for the sake of the game, just for fun.

00:29:44.620 Okay.

00:29:45.620 Yeah.

00:29:46.620 Let's play.

00:29:47.620 So six, two.

00:29:48.620 Okay.

00:29:49.620 That's a good one.

00:29:50.620 Six, five.

00:29:51.620 You're closer.

00:29:52.620 Four, one.

00:29:53.620 Four, one.

00:29:54.620 Let's see what happens here.

00:29:56.620 Six, five.

00:29:57.620 Six, five.

00:29:58.620 Wow.

00:29:59.620 Now it's even, right?

00:30:00.620 Patrick, I'm Grandmaster, not you.

00:30:01.620 So you can't beat me.

00:30:02.620 Stop it.

00:30:03.620 Stop it right now.

00:30:04.620 So a part of it has to be also smack-talking, right?

00:30:07.620 Because Grandmasters are also professional smack-talkers.

00:30:09.620 Yeah.

00:30:10.620 We don't want this game end up like this, you know, Habib versus, you know, Connor, you

00:30:15.620 know.

00:30:16.620 It's just like, you know.

00:30:17.620 Russia comes out of nowhere.

00:30:20.620 You don't, you know.

00:30:21.620 Oh, my gosh.

00:30:22.620 So I'm hoping you get a three, one, right?

00:30:24.620 That's what I'm hoping for.

00:30:25.620 Two, one.

00:30:26.620 That kind of works.

00:30:27.620 All right.

00:30:28.620 So here.

00:30:29.620 Oh, there you go.

00:30:30.620 Wait, wait, wait.

00:30:31.620 You missed the point.

00:30:32.620 You should give me eight cube just before this.

00:30:33.620 Tell me why.

00:30:34.620 Oh, now.

00:30:35.620 Because you're a huge favorite, right?

00:30:36.620 So now.

00:30:37.620 Before this double four.

00:30:38.620 Before you roll.

00:30:39.620 You give me eight.

00:30:40.620 Because I would not take it anyway.

00:30:41.620 Got it.

00:30:42.620 By not giving it, what you're risking is you can roll something, you know, like taking two checkers

00:30:46.620 off, right?

00:30:47.620 And I can get lucky.

00:30:48.620 I can roll like a double four.

00:30:49.620 Yeah.

00:30:50.620 And win the game.

00:30:51.620 You wouldn't even give you the chance.

00:30:52.620 I know.

00:30:53.620 Would you have taken it or you would have not taken it?

00:30:54.620 Of course not.

00:30:55.620 I could not take it.

00:30:56.620 I got it.

00:30:57.620 Okay.

00:30:58.620 Got it.

00:30:59.620 But you won four points.

00:31:00.620 So I got four points.

00:31:01.620 Okay.

00:31:02.620 That was interesting.

00:31:03.620 You watch this movie, Big Short, and it tells you what's going on with the market back

00:31:10.620 in 08.

00:31:11.620 You know, the 07 where they're selling a paper on the back end and it's Negam, Negam, Nina,

00:31:16.620 no income, no asset, no income, no asset.

00:31:18.620 But it seems like we're going back to that a little bit.

00:31:21.620 I see some of the stuff that some of the bad habits are creating again today.

00:31:25.620 Some say they're bullish about the market.

00:31:27.620 A lot of people are afraid of the market.

00:31:29.620 Where are you at with everything that you're watching?

00:31:31.620 I'm probably more on the cautious side right now.

00:31:33.620 Really?

00:31:34.620 Actually, recently myself, I've been very aggressively invested for years, including my 401Ks and

00:31:41.620 everything.

00:31:42.620 And recently, I actually started taking more cautious approach, which doesn't mean that-

00:31:45.620 How recent is recent, by the way?

00:31:47.620 Actually, weeks.

00:31:48.620 Within the weeks.

00:31:49.620 Oh, so this is like-

00:31:50.620 I made my investment changes, yes.

00:31:52.620 Part of this mid-term elections, of course, November, because any political changes bring

00:31:57.620 risk to the marketplace.

00:32:00.620 Also, the market been up for so long.

00:32:04.620 And I know how-

00:32:06.620 And also, I'm thinking that the tax changes that have been made and the positive effect

00:32:10.620 for an optimism for market maybe, you know, being already taken into account.

00:32:14.620 Also, you know, with instability around the world, you know, with like oil price, you know,

00:32:19.620 the situation in the Middle East, the oil price is a little bit up.

00:32:21.620 You know, I think maybe gold is going to do well over, I don't know, not a year.

00:32:26.620 But maybe five years because, you know, as a safe, one of the safe instruments.

00:32:32.620 But yeah, I'm just, I'm more in bonds now.

00:32:36.620 Like I said, I don't know when the, you know, correction or crisis may happen.

00:32:41.620 But I do think that it's more of a chance of a downside currently than an upside.

00:32:47.620 Or when I say currently, I mean next year or two.

00:32:50.620 Next year or two.

00:32:51.620 So you think the mid-term elections after it goes, let's just say it goes favorably in some

00:32:55.620 and you go back in equities again a year from now?

00:32:57.620 Could you?

00:32:58.620 Possibly.

00:32:59.620 Possibly.

00:33:00.620 But I think now it's worse to be on the safe side.

00:33:01.620 Let me ask you.

00:33:02.620 Is there any possibility of a crash, like an 08 type of crash?

00:33:05.620 Like the kind where we went from 11 to 6, you know, with a down drop.

00:33:10.620 Then everybody was going from a 401k to a 201k, if you remember those days?

00:33:13.620 I think it's more of a chance of like a normal size of correction, you know, like within 5%,

00:33:18.620 10%.

00:33:19.620 But you ask me, is it possible that there will be some crash?

00:33:22.620 Yes.

00:33:23.620 I mean, it is possible.

00:33:24.620 I mean, we have certain areas where, you know, like a student debt, for example, you

00:33:29.620 know, where certain, you know, like the problems are growing.

00:33:33.620 Doesn't mean that they cannot be solved.

00:33:35.620 And we don't know.

00:33:36.620 It all depends like how it all works together, you know.

00:33:39.620 If problem starts in certain area, you know, it may be just magnified by certain events,

00:33:44.620 you know.

00:33:45.620 God knows, I mean, like terrorist acts, you know, like a war in the middle.

00:33:49.620 Yeah, that's a different story.

00:33:50.620 You know, like I'm just saying.

00:33:51.620 And then those, you know, things which we used to live with, you know, which we used to

00:33:56.620 think, you know, kind of think, okay, it's normal, like it's amount of the student debt,

00:33:59.620 you know, or car loans or whatever, you know, suddenly start playing a much bigger role

00:34:04.620 than it was before, you know, just because it's already, you know, the marketplace already

00:34:08.620 have an issue, right?

00:34:10.620 And like I just said, you know, and when market goes up for, you know, so long and with such

00:34:17.620 a huge optimism, at the same time, economy seems like in a pretty decent place right now

00:34:22.620 in terms of like unemployment and, you know, general consumer optimism, though still not

00:34:28.620 enough of the well-paid jobs, you know, that's one of the concerns, right?

00:34:31.620 So the most of the added jobs are more like low-paid and still doesn't look very good for

00:34:38.620 middle class because the most of the jobs that been created, you know, either high-paying

00:34:43.620 job or low-paying job, you know, not so much in the middle.

00:34:46.620 And I think United, you know, like economy of United States still very much depend on how

00:34:52.620 well the middle class feel.

00:34:53.620 That may be a little bit more concern.

00:34:55.620 Yeah, so it's interesting you said college loans.

00:34:58.620 So, you know, the part that made the Big Short movie such a good book was the fact that there

00:35:03.620 was a Billy Bean money ball aspect to it.

00:35:06.620 I don't know if you know who Billy Bean is.

00:35:07.620 You may know him.

00:35:08.620 Billy Bean was the predictive analytics guy in baseball that changed the face of the game

00:35:12.620 from Oakland A's.

00:35:13.620 They focused on on-base percentage rather than home runs or any of that stuff.

00:35:17.620 So how there was an idea to say this formula is going to work.

00:35:20.620 We don't have to pay the best players.

00:35:22.620 Let's get guys at on-base percentage, right?

00:35:24.620 So the part that Big Short that makes it interesting to a guy like me is they were able to find

00:35:30.620 markers.

00:35:31.620 Like the guy goes and looks at every loan and says, this thing is in default.

00:35:35.620 This thing is back three months.

00:35:36.620 This thing is back two months.

00:35:37.620 So there's two different kinds of crashes.

00:35:39.620 The one kind of crashes, 9-11 happened.

00:35:41.620 I started off Morgan Stanley Dean Widow on 9-10 a day before 9-11.

00:35:44.620 So that's the kind of a crash you wake up in the morning, mark this down 800 points.

00:35:48.620 You can't control that.

00:35:49.620 Absolutely.

00:35:50.620 You can't control that any time under any president, right?

00:35:52.620 The part I'm asking about a guy like you that's faced 40 million to 50 million trades a day,

00:35:57.620 you know, for 11 years with 19 other guys, 20 total guys with you together.

00:36:02.620 Is there a marker that you had a Goldman Sachs guy you studied to say, these are the three

00:36:07.620 things to look out for that could completely be a disaster for a big market crash to happen?

00:36:13.620 And if yes, are you aware of any of those things today or not really today?

00:36:17.620 First of all, I don't have those exact markets as you described.

00:36:21.620 I just look at overall health of the economy.

00:36:23.620 Okay.

00:36:24.620 You know, if I see one thing like amount of loans, for example, you know, if just like,

00:36:29.620 you know, like remember those mortgages, you know, if it's just the standards of like giving

00:36:33.620 mortgages, you know, going lower and lower, you know, or the amount of student loans, you know, like-

00:36:38.620 1.4 trillion.

00:36:39.620 Exactly.

00:36:40.620 Do you think that can have an effect on the economy?

00:36:41.620 Of course, like it is a bad market.

00:36:43.620 Again, how important it is compared to the size of the economy now doesn't seem to be

00:36:47.620 important, you know, or the one event that would bring the market down.

00:36:51.620 But again, like it's all in combination, right?

00:36:53.620 When you have other factors, you know, all together, so they may play a negative role.

00:36:59.620 And what I can say about all financial companies, right?

00:37:03.620 Because from inside, and I know people being very concerned about the practices of financial

00:37:08.620 companies, and we've seen bad stories even after the financial crisis, not just Goldman,

00:37:12.620 right?

00:37:13.620 Wells Fargo, right?

00:37:14.620 Remember their accounting disaster?

00:37:15.620 Of course, yes.

00:37:16.620 It was massive.

00:37:17.620 Elizabeth Warren went after them, yes.

00:37:19.620 Absolutely.

00:37:20.620 But still, from inside, I can tell you, and I was in the middle of like trading, you know,

00:37:23.620 which is like, you know, it's many more rules now, many more compliance, many more people like

00:37:28.620 managers looking in the mirror, much more than they used to.

00:37:33.620 It's not just the profit anymore, you know, they just, they're much more responsible.

00:37:36.620 You're saying the broker-dealer world?

00:37:37.620 Yeah.

00:37:38.620 Like the securities world.

00:37:39.620 Yeah, yeah.

00:37:40.620 They're just much more responsible and conscious of the overall health of the company.

00:37:45.620 And also, they have in mind now whether we do the right thing or wrong thing for a client.

00:37:50.620 So client first, you know, that used to be said, but now it, at least in Goldman, I believe

00:37:55.620 that's the true mentality, at least within the world that I was part of.

00:37:59.620 Well, the fines dictate that it's being enforced more today than maybe 20 years ago.

00:38:03.620 I think you would agree with that.

00:38:04.620 Absolutely.

00:38:05.620 Absolutely.

00:38:06.620 Yeah.

00:38:07.620 But still, again, you know, the excess in any areas, you know, like I said, like whether

00:38:09.620 it's a student law or like, you know, you have to be like in the middle, like I'm not

00:38:13.620 part of the process.

00:38:14.620 Like for example, who verified these mortgage loans and everything.

00:38:17.620 It seems to me that real estate prices keep going up at very rapid pace, which it could

00:38:23.620 be concerned by itself too.

00:38:24.620 It could be developing another bubble, you know, and I don't know the standards of the

00:38:29.620 given mortgages at what level they are now.

00:38:32.620 Maybe they need to be, you know, they need to be revisited.

00:38:34.620 If all the people who get those mortgages actually, you know, prudent and can pay them,

00:38:39.620 or it's just been given just for to grow the business and to get more bonuses and everything,

00:38:44.620 that's always should be a concern, you know.

00:38:47.620 And that's one of the drivers for real estate prices.

00:38:49.620 With your permission.

00:38:50.620 Is it me?

00:38:51.620 Absolutely.

00:38:52.620 Okay.

00:38:53.620 Are there any major concern you have with currently when you look at the debt that we have in

00:38:57.620 America, right?

00:38:58.620 Do you have any major concerns you look with how one day we're going to have to pay this

00:39:03.620 $200 trillion back?

00:39:05.620 I'm actually more concerned that it's going to be more than this amount, you know, because

00:39:09.620 it's growing a lot.

00:39:10.620 That's exactly it.

00:39:11.620 Like every president that we get lately, regardless of which side of the party he belongs to,

00:39:16.620 actually benefit to the big growth of this national debt.

00:39:19.620 Whether they say they're going to do the, you know, like a responsible fiscal policy or

00:39:24.620 not, they still like have so many promises they make during campaign that grow.

00:39:29.620 So yeah, I think it's definitely a concern.

00:39:31.620 Again, if American economy will keep growing and then the amount of debt compared to the

00:39:38.620 size of the, you know, of the economy may not be as significant.

00:39:44.620 But if economies start contract at any point, you know, the size of economy and if its unemployment

00:39:48.620 will start going up, all those things will come together.

00:39:51.620 Yes, it will become a problem.

00:39:52.620 But again, I don't think it's a problem right now because that's how American economy been

00:39:59.620 built and, you know, that's the difference between United States and Europe, right?

00:40:04.620 We lend a lot, lend the money.

00:40:06.620 I mean, we borrow a lot and we, you know, we grow through our, you know, internal consumers.

00:40:13.620 And that brings the debt too.

00:40:15.620 But still, some areas needs to be looked at.

00:40:18.620 Definitely the student loans.

00:40:20.620 You know, I'm getting really lucky right now.

00:40:22.620 I don't know if you're watching this.

00:40:23.620 This is very abnormal how lucky I'm getting.

00:40:24.620 No, no, this is the best number you have.

00:40:26.620 But, you know, and it is a concern, of course.

00:40:29.620 Okay.

00:40:30.620 So did you guys pay attention?

00:40:32.620 Did you at all pay attention to school loans?

00:40:35.620 Like, is that a marker that Goldman pays attention to?

00:40:37.620 I'm sure certain departments, yes.

00:40:40.620 But again, in my role-

00:40:41.620 You realize how strange this is?

00:40:42.620 Yeah.

00:40:43.620 You're really well.

00:40:44.620 Doesn't mean you're going to win.

00:40:45.620 No, that doesn't mean I'm going to win because-

00:40:46.620 Don't get too high.

00:40:47.620 No, I know I'm not.

00:40:48.620 You get 1-6.

00:40:49.620 You're still locked this place up, so-

00:40:51.620 Regardless how you play here, by the way, you have to leave a shot anyway.

00:40:57.620 This shows that I'm not playing that aggressive on this move.

00:40:59.620 But that's your best move.

00:41:00.620 I know it is.

00:41:01.620 I mean, if I hit you-

00:41:02.620 Because it will be more, if you hit me, it will be more shots.

00:41:04.620 Yeah.

00:41:05.620 Yeah.

00:41:06.620 It's actually, you check your play.

00:41:07.620 And that's actually one of the signs of the player who grew up playing backgammon from Middle East.

00:41:11.620 Usually they don't understand the cube, but their checker player is pretty decent.

00:41:15.620 So I should have put this down already because I got it.

00:41:18.620 No, no.

00:41:19.620 I didn't mean it particularly.

00:41:20.620 Yes.

00:41:21.620 No, before double six, it was still not a cube.

00:41:22.620 Okay.

00:41:23.620 So you did fine here.

00:41:24.620 Okay.

00:41:25.620 But I'm just saying, so your checker play is actually very, you know, it's good.

00:41:28.620 Interesting.

00:41:29.620 Thank you.

00:41:30.620 You have a good feel for position.

00:41:31.620 I got to thank my dad for it.

00:41:32.620 Yeah, absolutely.

00:41:33.620 So let me ask you, before I roll the dice, are you asking, if this guy gets a 6-1, it's

00:41:37.620 over.

00:41:38.620 I'm hoping this guy gets a 3-4.

00:41:39.620 Yeah.

00:41:40.620 I know exactly.

00:41:41.620 Even before you roll, what I don't want you to roll.

00:41:43.620 Oh, yes.

00:41:44.620 Three ahead or just one ahead?

00:41:45.620 Like one.

00:41:46.620 In backgammon one.

00:41:47.620 Like in chess, it's a few moves.

00:41:48.620 Okay.

00:41:49.620 Here, you can't predict what's going to happen.

00:41:51.620 That's why you cannot be more than one.

00:41:52.620 I got it.

00:41:53.620 But I can see my position is dead here.

00:41:54.620 Got it.

00:41:55.620 So I don't have to be like, you know, I don't need to look five-hat.

00:41:58.620 There is no...

00:41:59.620 I'm just curious because, you know, you didn't just go from being a, you know, guy that played,

00:42:04.620 like you were interviewed one time and a guy asked you, he says, I'm so jealous about

00:42:07.620 guys like you that you go from playing part-time to all of a sudden become one of the best

00:42:11.620 in the world.

00:42:12.620 How do you do that?

00:42:13.620 Actually, first of all, a lot of work too.

00:42:15.620 I work on backgammon, right?

00:42:17.620 I play like one match every day at least.

00:42:19.620 Plus I told you I have students.

00:42:20.620 What is a match, by the way?

00:42:21.620 Is a match up to five or matches up to how many?

00:42:24.620 What difference between match and money game, money game doesn't have like end point, right?

00:42:30.620 It doesn't, we don't play till like 11 and match does.

00:42:33.620 Regardless if it's a five points, 11 points or nine points, it does have an end point.

00:42:37.620 That's the difference between match and the money game.

00:42:39.620 Money game is just open-ended game.

00:42:41.620 It's plus or minus, right?

00:42:43.620 You don't play, like match, for example, if you play till five, I can beat you 5-4, right?

00:42:48.620 In a money game, that would mean just plus one.

00:42:51.620 Got it.

00:42:52.620 I got it.

00:42:53.620 So if we're playing a thousand dollars, I owe you a thousand bucks.

00:42:55.620 Exactly.

00:42:56.620 Money is just plus and minus.

00:42:57.620 Got it.

00:42:58.620 So money you're playing plus minus, but if you're playing, is tournament like the money

00:43:01.620 type or is a tournament a 5-4?

00:43:02.620 Tournament is always matches.

00:43:03.620 So how many matches do I play to advance?

00:43:05.620 Are you?

00:43:06.620 If you play like world championship in Monte Carlo, like you probably would have to win

00:43:10.620 eight matches to become a world champion or eight long matches, like usually 19 points.

00:43:15.620 19 means 19 to seven or 19 to something or?

00:43:18.620 Yeah, to 19.

00:43:19.620 So whoever reaches 19.

00:43:20.620 First to 19.

00:43:21.620 Yes.

00:43:22.620 19, sometimes to 18 too.

00:43:23.620 So I have to beat eight different people up to 19.

00:43:26.620 Yeah.

00:43:27.620 And never lose.

00:43:28.620 Never lose eight in a row.

00:43:29.620 That's insane.

00:43:30.620 I mean, that's crazy.

00:43:31.620 This is like-

00:43:32.620 At least poker you can, you know-

00:43:33.620 It's like tennis grand slam, right?

00:43:35.620 You have to win like seven, I think seven matches.

00:43:37.620 So it's-

00:43:38.620 Same identical thing.

00:43:39.620 Similar to that.

00:43:40.620 Very interesting.

00:43:41.620 So what do you think about my opening move?

00:43:42.620 3-2 I did.

00:43:43.620 Is that a decent opening move?

00:43:44.620 It is.

00:43:45.620 Because typically some do 2-3 here.

00:43:46.620 In money game, I would do this.

00:43:48.620 Again, first of all, opening move is not that important because the difference between

00:43:51.620 them is very small and it's more like a style wise.

00:43:54.620 So this is like a more aggressive play because it creates more opportunities for you to make

00:44:00.620 important points.

00:44:01.620 But also it gives more opportunity to hit you.

00:44:04.620 So it has upsides and it has downsides like everything in life.

00:44:08.620 Yeah.

00:44:09.620 So 6-4, 6-3 hits this.

00:44:10.620 This is more risky.

00:44:11.620 But it's in the same time-

00:44:12.620 But in the money game you're doing it.

00:44:13.620 Yes.

00:44:14.620 Definitely.

00:44:15.620 So what's your opening favorite thing?

00:44:16.620 I've read 1-3.

00:44:17.620 I've read some people-

00:44:18.620 3-1.

00:44:19.620 3-1 is the-

00:44:20.620 Tell me why though.

00:44:21.620 I don't-

00:44:22.620 So one of the things I read about you is the fact that you come back after your games

00:44:28.620 and you run it up and you study your own-

00:44:30.620 Do you really do that?

00:44:31.620 I can-

00:44:32.620 You know, when I play serious match, even if it's like 5-hour match, 19-point match, right?

00:44:37.620 When I'm in good shape and I really pay attention to what I was doing, usually I can come back

00:44:41.620 home and without any recording I can restore every move that happened from my memory in the

00:44:46.620 game.

00:44:47.620 Chess players do that too.

00:44:48.620 I used to play chess in my childhood, like until I was 15.

00:44:51.620 I used to play blind, you know, like a blindfolded chess.

00:44:54.620 So it's not very unusual for the top players to do that.

00:44:59.620 Like if you go like best chess players in the world, they can restore most of their games too.

00:45:05.620 Just-

00:45:06.620 It's a function of the memory.

00:45:07.620 Yes, in the memory.

00:45:08.620 That's what I do in background.

00:45:09.620 Like every move I can-

00:45:10.620 If I really thought about the moves that were sitting there, I can go back home and I remember

00:45:14.620 all key positions and I can sometimes go move by move.

00:45:17.620 Can you kind of walk me through the educational system in Russia?

00:45:22.620 So first grade, second grade, you know, high school, college.

00:45:25.620 Is it the format similar to America like 12th grade and an associate's degree, bachelor's,

00:45:30.620 master's, PhD?

00:45:31.620 How similar are we?

00:45:32.620 And in what areas is Russian educational system better than ours?

00:45:36.620 At least the one you experienced.

00:45:37.620 But that actually was my first comment, right?

00:45:40.620 The one that I experienced is very different from the one that exists now.

00:45:44.620 Today.

00:45:45.620 Absolutely.

00:45:46.620 So today's more westernized?

00:45:47.620 Absolutely.

00:45:48.620 Got it.

00:45:49.620 Russia is a very interesting place.

00:45:50.620 It's one of the, actually it's very similar to Europe in a way that they don't like America.

00:45:55.620 Like if you listen to TV-

00:45:56.620 Still?

00:45:57.620 Yeah.

00:45:58.620 Not still, actually now it's probably at its highest.

00:46:00.620 Wait a minute.

00:46:01.620 So more now than 30 years ago?

00:46:03.620 After Gorbachev time.

00:46:04.620 Since 1989-

00:46:05.620 Got it.

00:46:06.620 Now the anti-American rhetoric is probably at its highest.

00:46:09.620 But it's not a unique place, right?

00:46:10.620 A lot of places in the world, people don't like America, even some of our-

00:46:15.620 Why do you think that is?

00:46:16.620 Is it because nobody ever likes number one?

00:46:18.620 Is that kind of the idea?

00:46:19.620 Absolutely.

00:46:20.620 No, people don't like successful, don't like strong.

00:46:23.620 But why?

00:46:24.620 Is because, you know, they think that we just, you know, we just decide for them.

00:46:29.620 Or I mean, we, United States, decide some things for them.

00:46:32.620 I said, but without us, you couldn't do that.

00:46:34.620 You don't have really army, you know, like, or serious army to, you know, to face the challenges

00:46:40.620 of today.

00:46:41.620 But like I said, like you said, they just, people don't like number one.

00:46:44.620 People don't like strong and powerful.

00:46:47.620 And, you know, that's the main reason I think.

00:46:50.620 That's interesting.

00:46:51.620 So America, I read a stat that America has, I think it's 40 million immigrants and the

00:46:59.620 number, I don't know if you know this, the number two country in the world for immigration

00:47:02.620 is Russia.

00:47:03.620 I had no idea.

00:47:04.620 Did you know that?

00:47:05.620 Number one is-

00:47:06.620 In America?

00:47:07.620 No, America's number one.

00:47:08.620 That attracts the most people that want to come live.

00:47:09.620 Okay.

00:47:10.620 But Russia's number two out of 11 million.

00:47:11.620 Why is that?

00:47:12.620 I'll explain.

00:47:13.620 It's not a true immigration, really.

00:47:15.620 This is mostly Russian-speaking people.

00:47:17.620 You see, what happened to Soviet Union, right?

00:47:18.620 It used to be 15 republics and they disintegrated, right?

00:47:22.620 Became 15 different countries.

00:47:24.620 So Russia became Russia, but also in many of those countries, Russian-speaking people,

00:47:30.620 or even Russian native people that moved to those countries because Soviet Union sent

00:47:35.620 them there for like work or something, they just appear or start living in a place which

00:47:41.620 became probably less friendly to like Russian language, for example, to Russian culture,

00:47:45.620 and even felt like Russia probably didn't play a good role in them being part of Soviet

00:47:51.620 Union.

00:47:52.620 Sometimes took them by force like Littwa, Latvia, and Estonia, those countries came to Soviet Union

00:48:00.620 not by the will, but by the agreement that Stalin signed with Hitler in 1940.

00:48:09.620 So not everyone in Soviet Union were equally happy to be in Soviet Union, right?

00:48:15.620 So Russian population in those countries, after the disintegration of Soviet Union, found

00:48:21.620 itself not always in the best situation.

00:48:23.620 So they move sometimes back to Russia from some of the Asian republics like Tajikistan.

00:48:28.620 And that counts as an immigrant for the status.

00:48:30.620 Absolutely.

00:48:31.620 So that's how they're calculating.

00:48:32.620 That's what these numbers come from.

00:48:34.620 Yeah.

00:48:35.620 Because it's not like an immigration from like normal immigration to Europe from like Africa

00:48:39.620 or Asia.

00:48:40.620 No, it's mostly Russian-speaking people.

00:48:42.620 I read somewhere when Reagan was having a conversation one time with Gorbachev, and Gorbachev

00:48:48.620 said, hey, what can we do in Russia to improve things like in America?

00:48:53.620 And he said, look, everybody in your country drives the same car.

00:48:55.620 Everybody in your country wears the same clothes, same underwear.

00:48:58.620 Everybody has the same thing.

00:48:59.620 You got to let people compete, and you got to let them really go at it.

00:49:02.620 And that wasn't happening today.

00:49:03.620 Russia has a lot of billionaires today.

00:49:05.620 There's a lot of people making money today.

00:49:07.620 Now, obviously, you know, you always hear about the KGB, KGB, and all these other things.

00:49:11.620 But it's amazing what capitalism done to a country like Russia today.

00:49:15.620 It's actually very interesting.

00:49:16.620 Well, that was my second part of my thought that first, on the surface, Russia doesn't

00:49:21.620 like America a lot.

00:49:23.620 In the same time, if you look at the Russian development over the last 10 years, especially

00:49:27.620 under Putin, by the way, over the last 10 years, first move, by the way, today that

00:49:31.620 I didn't like that you made.

00:49:32.620 So tell me, you would have gone 5-1?

00:49:34.620 Oh, I would have gone 1-5.

00:49:35.620 First of all, this is a great point.

00:49:37.620 I would not just like open up like that because you give opportunities to hit you and to make

00:49:42.620 point to me.

00:49:43.620 So you would have done what, 1-5?

00:49:44.620 Hit any 5, yeah.

00:49:45.620 Even 5 down.

00:49:46.620 Got it.

00:49:47.620 You would have kept it still here with the 6.

00:49:48.620 Yeah.

00:49:49.620 But I think this point is important to keep.

00:49:50.620 Got it.

00:49:51.620 Okay.

00:49:52.620 This is just too risky.

00:49:53.620 Got it.

00:49:54.620 Okay.

00:49:55.620 But yeah.

00:49:56.620 So in the same time, Russia does everything like America.

00:49:58.620 You know?

00:49:59.620 Today.

00:50:00.620 Yes.

00:50:01.620 It hates it on the surface.

00:50:02.620 The traditional system is actually copied.

00:50:03.620 They even have now new system, which is very similar to SAT after the school.

00:50:08.620 Soviet Union never had it.

00:50:10.620 And Russians hate it, but they have it.

00:50:12.620 So every student after the school now have to take like SAT type of a test.

00:50:16.620 Have you ever faced off anybody where you said this guy is a, is there any, like you know

00:50:20.620 how Kobe goes against, you know, some of the players in LeBron faces Kevin Durant.

00:50:24.620 Is there anybody in your world where you say this guy I face, the guy is a beast.

00:50:29.620 Is there anyone in your world that's super competitive at shoot?

00:50:32.620 Just to be honest with you, usually that's how I'm viewed, especially in the money game,

00:50:36.620 right?

00:50:37.620 Those two Japanese guys, they're very strong tournament players, you know, but in terms

00:50:40.620 of money, I have, I have a stigma of like being feared.

00:50:45.620 Like, like I have almost no.

00:50:46.620 You don't blame them.

00:50:47.620 Like nobody really plays me in the world.

00:50:49.620 I mean, you start talking and you look.

00:50:50.620 Or not nobody.

00:50:51.620 I mean, there are a couple of guys I'm sure that would, you know, you always can find

00:50:54.620 to play, but normally, yes, that, that just, there is a fear factor, you know,

00:50:58.620 that plays into that.

00:50:59.620 It's a little bit like, you know, like a Kasparov in chess when, when people just like,

00:51:03.620 it's, aside from the normal strengths that you have, there is also some, some like a,

00:51:08.620 some.

00:51:09.620 Mind?

00:51:10.620 Yeah.

00:51:11.620 Some, some, you know, like a, maybe killer instinct, you know, maybe some, something,

00:51:14.620 something of that nature.

00:51:15.620 Who was Victor in school?

00:51:16.620 Were you an athlete?

00:51:17.620 Were you a competitor?

00:51:18.620 Were you fierce?

00:51:19.620 Oh, incredible.

00:51:20.620 Yeah, yeah.

00:51:21.620 First of all, fierce, I wouldn't call fierce.

00:51:22.620 Actually, I was actually a little bit chubby.

00:51:24.620 I was fighting my extra weight through the whole school.

00:51:27.620 But in the same time, I was, I was actually very good at sports.

00:51:31.620 Surprisingly, I play all kinds of sports.

00:51:33.620 I was like a semi-professional soccer, soccer player after the school.

00:51:37.620 When I was, I grew up like in like, probably around, around eighth grade.

00:51:41.620 Before that, like I said, I was a little chubby and I was a little shy.

00:51:44.620 Interesting.

00:51:45.620 But I still did sports and like ping pong, I'm pretty good.

00:51:47.620 Were you super competitive?

00:51:48.620 Yeah, always.

00:51:49.620 Yes.

00:51:50.620 In chess too.

00:51:51.620 I played the game in chess.

00:51:52.620 I was like 13.

00:51:53.620 It was a regional junior tournament in Russia.

00:51:55.620 Of course, I lost and it took like five hours to play the game.

00:51:59.620 And I couldn't leave it.

00:52:00.620 I was just sitting over the board and actually the tears were going through my face.

00:52:05.620 It took me many years actually to learn how to lose.

00:52:09.620 It's actually very difficult.

00:52:10.620 I still don't want to know how to lose.

00:52:12.620 I want to win, but at least I can understand the complexity of life now and the fact, and

00:52:19.620 accept the fact that I'm not going to win 100% of the time.

00:52:22.620 Does that bother you?

00:52:23.620 Are you like-

00:52:24.620 Maybe it's aging, right?

00:52:25.620 I don't know.

00:52:26.620 Maybe it's not a good thing.

00:52:27.620 No, I think-

00:52:28.620 Do you accept losing?

00:52:29.620 Listen, let me put it to you this way.

00:52:30.620 You're April 1st.

00:52:31.620 My dad's April 10th.

00:52:32.620 I get along with all April.

00:52:33.620 I hire April and October babies because to me, April people are-

00:52:35.620 Aries is-

00:52:36.620 I can always count on April babies.

00:52:38.620 I don't know what it is.

00:52:39.620 It's competitors.

00:52:40.620 Yeah.

00:52:41.620 They're perfectionists.

00:52:42.620 There's a part of it that's perfectionist.

00:52:43.620 Do you think that's what makes you be obsessed about studying your trends when you go home

00:52:47.620 and you look at it and say, what was the flaw?

00:52:49.620 Was it luck?

00:52:50.620 Was it something I could have done?

00:52:51.620 That one play I should, like the my five one that I did and you caught my five when

00:52:55.620 you said I should have played this one five.

00:52:56.620 I do it all the time.

00:52:57.620 So you do it all the time.

00:52:58.620 I couldn't sleep.

00:52:59.620 If I lose-

00:53:00.620 One play.

00:53:01.620 I go to bed and I put the match.

00:53:03.620 I don't have to put the board, right?

00:53:04.620 I can do it in my mind.

00:53:05.620 Of course.

00:53:06.620 And I go through the plays and suddenly it's like, okay, I have to check.

00:53:11.620 I wake up, I put it on the computer, this play, this play, check, this play, you know,

00:53:15.620 because my mind cannot go to rest.

00:53:18.620 But in terms of like competitive, yeah, I mean, that's part of which, first of all,

00:53:23.620 you know, you can become good or best through different ways, right?

00:53:28.620 We look at the champions in different sports or different occupations and they all different,

00:53:34.620 right?

00:53:35.620 You don't have to be like the same way.

00:53:36.620 You don't have to be like people like to say, oh, you're super competitive, but it's

00:53:40.620 just my way, right?

00:53:41.620 It doesn't mean that everybody, I've seen different people, very analytical and calm and they still

00:53:46.620 were very good, right?

00:53:47.620 So whatever works for you, right?

00:53:49.620 Whatever drives you, whatever, because it has to be interesting in the end of the day.

00:53:52.620 That's the key, right?

00:53:53.620 We're all children inside.

00:53:55.620 Like it shouldn't be boring.

00:53:56.620 I agree with you.

00:53:57.620 I totally agree with you.

00:53:58.620 Right?

00:53:59.620 But there is, so childlike, you have that childlike competitor is what you got.

00:54:03.620 Yes, definitely.

00:54:04.620 I hate losing.

00:54:05.620 I still do.

00:54:06.620 I still do.

00:54:07.620 I don't cry anymore, hope, you know, I hope so.

00:54:10.620 Not every time.

00:54:11.620 Do you ever, have you ever played a match where you said, I played perfect?

00:54:15.620 You ever say, I played a perfect game?

00:54:17.620 Many, many times.

00:54:18.620 Seriously?

00:54:19.620 Many times.

00:54:20.620 That's actually one that I would say, I have a friend, you know, Phil, he's, you know,

00:54:24.620 he's a big, I mean, teacher too.

00:54:26.620 He would, he would get a kick, you know, that I'm talking about him here.

00:54:29.620 But he says, it's probably tough to be Victor Ashkenazi because all your life, you're actually

00:54:36.620 losing to someone who is worse than you.

00:54:39.620 And it's so, it's very frustrating.

00:54:40.620 It's gotta be tough.

00:54:41.620 It's very frustrating, you know, like, you just like, you don't really lose to somebody

00:54:46.620 better than you.

00:54:47.620 You always lose to, you think, how did I lose to you?

00:54:49.620 You know who would say that?

00:54:50.620 How did I lose to you?

00:54:51.620 Kobe would say that.

00:54:52.620 Jordan would say that.

00:54:53.620 And to learn to deal with this, that's internal work.

00:54:56.620 Wow.

00:54:57.620 To become a good loser.

00:54:58.620 I'm still not, by the way.

00:54:59.620 Yeah.

00:55:00.620 But I'm much, if you ask anybody, they would say, Victor now and Victor 10 years ago is

00:55:04.620 different.

00:55:05.620 Really?

00:55:06.620 Yeah.

00:55:07.620 I can shake the hand.

00:55:08.620 I can congratulate.

00:55:09.620 I can put even...

00:55:10.620 Before you wouldn't?

00:55:11.620 Not always.

00:55:12.620 Not always.

00:55:13.620 I can be just, you know, like...

00:55:14.620 Really?

00:55:15.620 Sometimes, yeah.

00:55:16.620 Because, you know, you see a lot of that in poker.

00:55:17.620 Phil Helmuth is a little bit like that.

00:55:18.620 Oh, yeah.

00:55:19.620 But he's a brat.

00:55:20.620 He is a brat.

00:55:21.620 Poker brat, yeah.

00:55:22.620 I don't think...

00:55:23.620 Actually, I could be to that extent, but yeah, not as loud and not as often.

00:55:26.620 What'd you think about the move I made?

00:55:27.620 Would you have played the other way, the two, to protect this rather than this?

00:55:30.620 Because I calculated the six.

00:55:31.620 Yeah.

00:55:32.620 It's actually...

00:55:33.620 It's a good move you made.

00:55:34.620 I probably would a little bit prefer this because it covers more...

00:55:37.620 More of it?

00:55:38.620 More of it.

00:55:39.620 You know, it gives me six.

00:55:41.620 But I'm not 100% sure this is a good one because it holds this better.

00:55:44.620 That's what I did.

00:55:45.620 Am I more concerned about protecting this or this?

00:55:47.620 I understand.

00:55:48.620 Yeah.

00:55:49.620 Both of them if you can, right?

00:55:50.620 But yes, I like it because this one is actually close now.

00:55:53.620 So your first choice would have been the other way.

00:55:54.620 Yeah, just...

00:55:55.620 To lock up the three here together.

00:55:56.620 But I think they're close.

00:55:57.620 Okay.

00:55:58.620 I wouldn't criticize you for this move.

00:55:59.620 Got it.

00:56:00.620 Actually, the only...

00:56:01.620 How many games did you play?

00:56:02.620 Three?

00:56:03.620 Three.

00:56:04.620 The only really play that I hated that you made was 5-1.

00:56:05.620 Yeah.

00:56:06.620 I think that was bad.

00:56:07.620 Makes sense.

00:56:08.620 But everything else, it's debatable at worst.

00:56:09.620 Makes sense.

00:56:10.620 And by the way, you see, if you made my play, double six would not go from here.

00:56:13.620 That would be close.

00:56:14.620 Got it.

00:56:15.620 Any six...

00:56:16.620 You're right.

00:56:17.620 And I would have protected this one as well.

00:56:18.620 Right.

00:56:19.620 That was a mistake then.

00:56:20.620 No.

00:56:21.620 I mean, again, you're all different number, right?

00:56:22.620 Just...

00:56:23.620 So I'm going to lose sleep over that screw up that I just made.

00:56:26.620 Screw this thing.

00:56:27.620 I can't believe I made that mistake.

00:56:29.620 Are you a perfectionist?

00:56:30.620 You look like one.

00:56:31.620 I am as well, man.

00:56:32.620 I am as well.

00:56:33.620 So how did you learn finally how to enjoy it?

00:56:35.620 How did you finally learn how to enjoy the game?

00:56:37.620 Because, you know, sometimes when you are...

00:56:40.620 Because you seem like the type of guy that you're not going to do anything, you know,

00:56:44.620 to just wing it, to just have fun.

00:56:45.620 I feel like you're the guy that if you're going to say, I'm going to learn this game,

00:56:48.620 I'm learning it to become the best of the best in this, right?

00:56:51.620 So there is a part of madness in it where you go through a phase of not enjoying it.

00:56:56.620 Like some people are like, what is wrong with you?

00:56:58.620 You're freaking killing everybody.

00:56:59.620 Why can't you enjoy it?

00:57:01.620 But you still can't.

00:57:02.620 Did you have to?

00:57:03.620 Are you still not there?

00:57:04.620 Or are you finally enjoying the game?

00:57:06.620 No, I always did.

00:57:07.620 Because my sports side is not the only side I have.

00:57:10.620 Like every human being, I'm a complex person, right?

00:57:13.620 To different people, it's a different thing, right?

00:57:14.620 Some people think it's a math game.

00:57:16.620 Some people think it's something else.

00:57:17.620 To me, it's a music.

00:57:18.620 Music.

00:57:19.620 Why is it a music?

00:57:20.620 Yes.

00:57:21.620 Because I feel like there is a certain harmony within backgammon position, right?

00:57:27.620 And with this harmony, when I play position and it feels harmonical every move, usually

00:57:34.620 it's also a right move too.

00:57:36.620 It's very interesting.

00:57:37.620 So it does have internal rhythm and internal harmony, the backgammon game, that I really

00:57:42.620 enjoy.

00:57:43.620 And that's what actually makes me a good player because I'm not very mathematical in terms

00:57:47.740 of like, not just mathematical, I don't remember all kinds of positions.

00:57:51.620 You don't?

00:57:52.620 My approach to the game is more like I develop this internal tool, which you can call a harmonical

00:57:57.620 tool.

00:57:58.620 When I look at the new position for me, the new number, that tool helps me to find the

00:58:04.620 best solution at that particular moment.

00:58:06.620 And I think this is the best way to...

00:58:08.620 Interesting way to put it.

00:58:09.620 It's like you put the...it becomes musical because it sounds perfect when you play a great

00:58:13.620 game.

00:58:14.620 Absolutely.

00:58:15.620 Yes.

00:58:16.620 Interesting.

00:58:17.620 And usually when it looks good or it feels good, it's actually a good move as well.

00:58:20.620 Like this one.

00:58:21.620 See what you just did.

00:58:23.620 That's very interesting what you just did.

00:58:24.620 See, instead of playing safe...

00:58:25.620 Yeah.

00:58:26.620 So you just hit me because...

00:58:27.620 Because making the four point is very big, right?

00:58:30.620 It eliminates this gap in my position in which you can jump.

00:58:33.620 Got it.

00:58:34.620 Even like, you don't have much of a board yet.

00:58:36.620 I can even tolerate you to hit me on the ace more than you jumping to the four point

00:58:40.620 and jumping out.

00:58:41.620 I want to close it.

00:58:42.620 So when I close it, I want to start from the best point I can make, which is the four point

00:58:46.620 in this position.

00:58:47.620 In the same time, I want to hit you.

00:58:49.620 I don't want you to roll freely.

00:58:50.620 That's why I hit you lose.

00:58:51.620 So the basic is, if you're going to have any one of the ones locked up, the most important

00:58:55.620 is here.

00:58:56.620 Least important is here.

00:58:57.620 Just very basic.

00:58:58.620 Yeah.

00:58:59.620 From the base.

00:59:00.620 Also, another point is when your opponent don't have many points made in his board,

00:59:03.620 your points are...

00:59:04.620 You can be playing more aggressively.

00:59:06.620 You can be playing more aggressively.

00:59:07.620 Yes.

00:59:08.620 Me.

00:59:09.620 Because you don't have many points.

00:59:10.620 Who cares if you're open because I...

00:59:11.620 So it's easy for me to come in.

00:59:12.620 You got right now 66% open, right?

00:59:13.620 Right.

00:59:14.620 Is that kind...

00:59:15.620 Yeah.

00:59:16.620 Do you calculate it that way or no?

00:59:17.620 No, I just know that it's more than 80% for me to come in on this board if you hit me.

00:59:20.620 So it's not a big deal.

00:59:21.620 Got it.

00:59:22.620 Well, let's see what we're going to do here.

00:59:23.620 I've got the three, but the six I'm locked there.

00:59:26.620 Yeah.

00:59:27.620 So I've got to come here.

00:59:28.620 Still, you have a good position.

00:59:29.620 I'm not going to cube this because of these two checkers stuck there.

00:59:32.620 So I have to still do something with this guy.

00:59:34.620 Hopefully, you know, make the three point like this.

00:59:38.620 You know, what a beautiful one.

00:59:39.620 Wait a minute.

00:59:40.620 You got hit, right?

00:59:41.620 I didn't hit you.

00:59:42.620 That's right.

00:59:43.620 Yeah.

00:59:44.620 Okay.

00:59:45.620 That was my best number.

00:59:46.620 Wow.

00:59:47.620 Because this is a problem.

00:59:48.620 I'm stuck there.

00:59:49.620 I'm not afraid of this now.

00:59:50.620 So now it's a big cube.

00:59:51.620 So now you're putting that.

00:59:52.620 I'm going to accept it.

00:59:53.620 I'm going to say, meaning I'm going to give you the game.

00:59:55.620 Yeah.

00:59:56.620 Because what I'm saying.

00:59:57.620 There's no way in the world.

00:59:58.620 Yeah.

00:59:59.620 Five on six is 80.

01:00:00.620 Percentage of the games I win, but also it's a lot of gamins.

01:00:03.620 So almost every game that I win here is going to be multiplied.

01:00:06.620 Explain to me.

01:00:07.620 Explain to me what you mean.

01:00:08.620 Okay.

01:00:09.620 So for instance, I roll.

01:00:10.620 I don't hit.

01:00:11.620 You roll.

01:00:12.620 You go here, right?

01:00:13.620 Is that what you're going to do to me next?

01:00:15.620 No.

01:00:16.620 First of all, I gave you cube, right?

01:00:17.620 Yes.

01:00:18.620 What I'm saying is the reason why you can't accept this to the two, you have to say pass,

01:00:21.620 is because majority of the games that I win here is white.

01:00:24.620 Of course.

01:00:25.620 I win like 75%.

01:00:26.620 But say I do.

01:00:27.620 Almost every game I win is a gammon.

01:00:29.620 So it's not going to be just two points, it's going to be four.

01:00:32.620 That's why it makes it more dangerous for you to take this cube, right?

01:00:34.620 Got it.

01:00:35.620 So let's say I win here 75% of the games.

01:00:37.620 Yep.

01:00:38.620 But more than 60% of those 75% will be gammon on four.

01:00:41.620 So you're going to lose not two, but four.

01:00:43.620 Got it.

01:00:44.620 That's why it's a big pass.

01:00:45.620 Got it.

01:00:46.620 That was interesting.

01:00:47.620 Yeah.

01:00:48.620 That's what you call an ass whooping, right?

01:00:49.620 Right.

01:00:50.620 That's a good way of putting it right there.

01:00:51.620 No, not this particular game.

01:00:53.620 I just won one game out of three or whatever.

01:00:55.620 Yeah.

01:00:56.620 But it's a beautiful game.

01:00:58.620 It has a lot of variety.

01:01:00.620 It's actually very, very complicated.

01:01:02.620 People underestimate complexity of this.

01:01:05.620 People think it's all luck.

01:01:07.620 It's actually not.

01:01:08.620 It's all skill.

01:01:09.620 I like this game because there's math to it.

01:01:11.620 I couldn't get into chess.

01:01:12.620 Yeah.

01:01:13.620 To me, this is...

01:01:14.620 Chess is true.

01:01:15.620 For chess, you have to study too much.

01:01:17.620 You have to know the openings, you know, just a lot of work.

01:01:20.620 Here, you can just play and develop your style.

01:01:22.620 Is there something...

01:01:23.620 Is there a number that you definitely don't want to get when you open up the game?

01:01:26.620 Like, do you have a worse...

01:01:27.620 You know how some players in, like, 210.

01:01:30.620 Doyle loves a 210 to go play against people, right?

01:01:33.620 I don't...

01:01:34.620 Is there anything where, for you, opening up, it's like, I hate getting a 5-1?

01:01:36.620 No.

01:01:37.620 I mean, it's objectively the worst number, yes.

01:01:39.620 What's the worst number to start off with?

01:01:40.620 Probably 5-1.

01:01:41.620 Probably 5-1.

01:01:42.620 Okay.

01:01:43.620 But, again, it is what it is, so I don't have, like, favorite.

01:01:46.620 My favorite and my least favorite would be based on my chances after that.

01:01:49.620 Is there a favorite?

01:01:50.620 On just equity.

01:01:51.620 3-1.

01:01:52.620 3-1, of course, because it makes the 5-point.

01:01:53.620 Got it.

01:01:54.620 4-2 is the second one because it makes the 4-point.

01:01:56.620 6-1 makes the bar, it's going to be number 3.

01:01:58.620 I think I read somewhere you said for two months you didn't play, you just watched everybody

01:02:03.620 play, right?

01:02:04.620 In the beginning, yeah.

01:02:05.620 Did you watch somebody play where you kind of remember that person who's a regular person,

01:02:10.620 they have a regular job, they're not rich, they're just somebody that makes, you know,

01:02:13.620 $60,000 a year, but they were amazing at the game.

01:02:16.620 Do you remember somebody like that?

01:02:18.620 Because, for me, when I think about this game, I think about somebody that's good with math,

01:02:21.620 I think about somebody that's good with studying trends, all that other stuff.

01:02:24.620 Did you know somebody that was very good at it but they never made it to a different level

01:02:27.620 in their life?

01:02:28.620 Backgammon is a very interesting world, right?

01:02:30.620 It attracts certain personalities which you're probably not going to meet in any other parts

01:02:35.620 of life.

01:02:36.620 Like, I know people who used to be homeless living on the street of New York and then

01:02:41.620 ended up on the cover of New Yorker, right?

01:02:44.620 Just from Backgammon, right?

01:02:45.620 And just teaching.

01:02:46.620 You know somebody.

01:02:47.620 Yeah.

01:02:48.620 And then teaching billionaires, you know.

01:02:49.620 And then I know people from, like, Japan, my close friend, Akeko, she's a two-time world

01:02:53.620 champion cancer survivor in her 30s.

01:02:56.620 She's like a national hero now in Japan in all big newspapers, huge, huge star, and almost

01:03:02.620 like anti-Japanese woman, like very independent.

01:03:05.620 Very, like, Backgammon gives you access to certain people which you never, I guarantee,

01:03:12.620 you're never going to meet in other parts of life.

01:03:14.620 Why?

01:03:15.620 I don't know.

01:03:16.620 It just brings the characters.

01:03:17.620 I don't know how.

01:03:18.620 Interesting.

01:03:19.620 Yeah.

01:03:20.620 You know, like people which have different views of the world and of the life and enjoy

01:03:24.620 different things, not necessarily just normal jobs, you know, like go to the office and just,

01:03:29.620 like, be, like, nine to five.

01:03:31.620 So, in terms of, like, not reaching their potential in Backgammon, I think people who work in New

01:03:38.620 York, they mostly look at Backgammon just for, you know, like a fun, some passion.

01:03:42.620 You know, they don't try to make profession out of it.

01:03:45.620 Yeah.

01:03:46.620 Because I think about it.

01:03:47.620 I'm like, you know, to be good at this, you're good at maths.

01:03:48.620 You could get so many different jobs that have to do with numbers and make big money.

01:03:50.620 Absolutely.

01:03:51.620 Why don't you?

01:03:52.620 Why don't you figure out a way to monetize your ability?

01:03:53.620 And most of them they do.

01:03:54.620 Oh, most of them they do?

01:03:55.620 Yes.

01:03:56.620 Okay.

01:03:57.620 So, the answer is, in the game of Backgammon, those who become very good, they find a way to

01:04:00.620 monetize it.

01:04:01.620 Okay.

01:04:02.620 That actually brings me to a story that you just, what do you say in mind?

01:04:04.620 There used to be experiment in a broker house named Saskahana.

01:04:07.620 One of their main brokers was a backgammon player, strong player, but also a backgammon

01:04:13.620 aficionado.

01:04:14.620 So, he believed, he had a theory that people, and you know how trading desks in big firms

01:04:19.620 hire people, right?

01:04:20.620 It's mostly Ivy Leagues, MIT, Harvard.

01:04:23.620 You know, MIT is not Ivy League, but you know, those type of universities.

01:04:26.620 And this guy actually hired gamblers from New York streets, mostly backgammon money players,

01:04:33.620 who never had a job before.

01:04:35.620 Really?

01:04:36.620 I think four or five of them at a time, and put them against Harvard graduates in trading,

01:04:41.620 in options trading.

01:04:43.620 And, of course, these guys killed Harvard people, just killed them.

01:04:48.620 And the reason is, it's ability to recognize the opportunity when, because what backgammon

01:04:55.620 and poker does.

01:04:56.620 It actually, all it does is just, you recognize the opportunity to gamble or to take a risk,

01:05:05.620 right?

01:05:06.620 When to take a risk.

01:05:07.620 Calculative risk, right?

01:05:08.620 It's not a gamble, really.

01:05:09.620 It's not a casino.

01:05:10.620 You don't play automatic.

01:05:11.620 You actually become a kind of a casino, right?

01:05:14.620 You just, you try to find opportunity where you are a favorite, so-called arbitrage.

01:05:19.620 You know, that's what you do in backgammon.

01:05:20.620 Of course.

01:05:21.620 That's when you give a cube.

01:05:22.620 You know, that's when you feel the weakness of your opponent.

01:05:24.620 Yes.

01:05:25.620 And also psychologically, too.

01:05:26.620 You know, when maybe he doesn't feel that well, maybe he's prone to make a mistake at

01:05:29.620 this time.

01:05:30.620 That's what backgammon money game is, you know, and that's very close to trading.

01:05:34.620 That's why those people were very successful in trading.

01:05:37.620 Some of them stayed in the industry.

01:05:38.620 Actually, some of them become pretty big in the financial world, you know.

01:05:43.620 Some moved, you know.

01:05:45.620 What a great idea, though, for a guy to do that.

01:05:47.620 It is.

01:05:48.620 Go recruiting backgammon players.

01:05:49.620 Yeah.

01:05:50.620 Pretty much hustlers from the street, people who may not have, like, never had any formal

01:05:56.620 job, you know, don't know what the suit is, you know, how to come to office, you know,

01:06:00.620 how to, you know, talk to other people, but they know how to gamble.

01:06:05.620 What's this company's name?

01:06:06.620 Saskahana.

01:06:07.620 And where's the base stand of it?

01:06:08.620 Oh, I think they are in Philadelphia now.

01:06:10.620 They're still trading options, I think.

01:06:11.620 Wow.

01:06:12.620 Like I said, some of the gamblers actually made their way up through the Wall Street, you

01:06:18.620 know, letters, and actually, when I got to Goldman, my first interview, not the Goldman,

01:06:23.620 but the trading desk, first interview was with a guy, he's from Norway.

01:06:28.620 By the way, Goldman is incredibly international now.

01:06:30.620 He's in my 25-man group.

01:06:32.620 Actually, the only reason he hired me was because I was backgammon, like a star.

01:06:37.620 Because he himself was a poker player.

01:06:39.620 You were already a star at that time?

01:06:41.620 Yeah.

01:06:42.620 Yeah.

01:06:43.620 I wasn't Goldman, but I was doing compliance.

01:06:44.620 Actually, kind of opposite, right?

01:06:45.620 I was actually making trader's life miserable.

01:06:48.620 That's defense.

01:06:49.620 That's boring stuff.

01:06:50.620 Miserable, yes.

01:06:51.620 But that's all I could do.

01:06:52.620 See, when you come as an immigrant to a new country, you don't always have all the choices

01:06:56.620 in the world, right?

01:06:57.620 It's difficult enough when you grow up here to make it to the trading desk in Goldman.

01:07:02.620 I mean, very few can actually make it.

01:07:04.620 You know, you have to be fortunate in some way or another.

01:07:07.620 I was fortunate through this guy who recognized this, you know, who wants to have this, you

01:07:14.620 know, recognition of the risk and opportunity and believe in that because he was himself

01:07:20.620 a poker player.

01:07:21.620 And he just like, he valued that element in people.

01:07:25.620 And he gave you the opportunity.

01:07:26.620 Yeah.

01:07:27.620 Isn't that amazing?

01:07:28.620 Four years ago.

01:07:29.620 Isn't that amazing?

01:07:30.620 Yeah.

01:07:31.620 So, with this whole dice game, right?

01:07:33.620 I mean, you know, the dice, they say there's people that are professional with dice.

01:07:37.620 I had a friend here, Richard Turner.

01:07:39.620 They call him the card mechanic.

01:07:42.620 So, he knows how to manipulate cards, right?

01:07:45.620 And you look at him, the way he shuffles, you would have, I mean, it's impossible what

01:07:48.620 he does.

01:07:49.620 Do you know guys that you play with that are also, you know, magicians when it comes down

01:07:53.620 to the dice?

01:07:55.620 And is that, can you read it?

01:07:57.620 Do you see people that know how to do that?

01:07:58.620 Yeah.

01:07:59.620 Also, I wouldn't call them magicians.

01:08:00.620 I would call them crooks.

01:08:02.620 But yes, I actually had a couple of personal stories.

01:08:06.620 One of them was in Monte Carlo in the beginning of like 2005 or 2006.

01:08:10.620 I was one of the newbies there, came and started playing for money and actually beat a couple

01:08:15.300 of guys, probably wrong guys at the time, for money.

01:08:19.180 And then some other guy just bumped into me in a very posh hotel and started talking to

01:08:25.900 me in Russian, like he knows me and said, oh, let's play backgammon for money.

01:08:29.900 And I was already like a great player.

01:08:31.900 I thought, well, you know, why would you challenge me?

01:08:34.900 You know, like everybody's scared and you suddenly like jump into me.

01:08:37.900 I said, okay, let's play.

01:08:38.900 So, we play like 200 euro a point or something.

01:08:40.900 And I was like losing, I don't know, a few thousand.

01:08:43.900 Then my friend like came and sat down watching the game for like 10 minutes and just told

01:08:47.900 me, stop playing, just pay this guy and let's go.

01:08:50.900 I said, well, I mean, like I obviously see that guy is playing worse than me and gets

01:08:54.900 very lucky.

01:08:55.900 So, I just paid and we went.

01:08:57.900 He said, this is a cheater.

01:08:58.900 I mean, he's a cheater.

01:08:59.900 He's like that dice mechanic.

01:09:02.900 So, he said he just, the way, again, the way the cheating been done, at least to my knowledge,

01:09:08.900 over the years, right?

01:09:09.900 There was a couple of cheating incidents in New York over the years, but it was also involved

01:09:13.900 all the things that come with backgammon, which is like, it was a guy's board, especially

01:09:19.900 made with some magnets, very heavy board underneath.

01:09:22.900 Got it.

01:09:23.900 And his dice also had magnets, which would be more heavier on like a six, for example,

01:09:28.900 right?

01:09:29.900 When he has to roll it and he would exchange the dice during the game, you know, they would

01:09:32.900 start playing with normal dice, win a lot of money and somehow it was proved that he

01:09:37.900 was cheating.

01:09:38.900 So, he didn't get paid.

01:09:39.900 So, the idea isn't on the way you roll it.

01:09:41.900 The idea is all a magnetic type of thing is what it is.

01:09:43.900 Well, that's just one of the things.

01:09:44.900 What other things I've seen, because I travel around the world, right?

01:09:47.900 As we discussed, I've been probably to like 50 plus countries playing backgammon, right?

01:09:52.900 And everybody's different.

01:09:53.900 Like, for example, I play with some guys in Georgia for money and what I noticed is during

01:10:01.900 the match, before important roles, they were dropping their dice to the floor, right?

01:10:07.900 And I had to look down.

01:10:09.900 So, when I was looking up again, you know, they would roll the number and it was always

01:10:14.900 a lucky number, you know?

01:10:15.900 For example, when they need to hit me, right?

01:10:17.900 Very important, you know, shot.

01:10:20.900 And then people told me that this is like a professional, cheating professionals.

01:10:24.900 What they do is when they're dropping the dice and they're picking up from the floor and put it back into the cup, they put only one

01:10:30.900 die back into the cup and another one they're fixing with their finger.

01:10:34.900 And when they roll, you know, first of all, your eyes are busy being down, right?

01:10:38.900 When you look up, they roll already, but they roll only one die.

01:10:41.900 And the second one they just put on the board very quick.

01:10:45.900 But, of course, it requires a lot of skill, right?

01:10:47.900 Sure, of course.

01:10:48.900 I can't do that.

01:10:49.900 But they put the number which they need to hit you, like, for example, three.

01:10:51.900 Isn't that amazing?

01:10:52.900 Yeah.

01:10:53.900 So, but again, I play for 20 plus years, right?

01:10:57.900 And I've heard like two stories like that and it never happened.

01:11:00.900 So it's not as common in the game as it is?

01:11:01.900 Not at all.

01:11:02.900 People are more concerned usually with the internet play, both for poker and baggammon, you know?

01:11:07.900 Collusion or people can break into the programs and somehow like cheat, you know?

01:11:12.900 Maybe there have been a couple of stories with poker.

01:11:15.900 Baggammon, they're concerned that people use computer to help them play because you can ask computer

01:11:20.900 for best decision.

01:11:21.900 Computers in Baggammon, you know, there are programs that exist that play on the level

01:11:25.900 of the best players in the world.

01:11:26.900 Similar in chess.

01:11:27.900 In chess, actually, they're even stronger.

01:11:29.900 So if you have computer help, you know, you're gaining huge advantage.

01:11:34.900 So I think it's your turn.

01:11:36.900 Okay.

01:11:37.900 So let me ask you, how old were you when the wall, were you in Russia when the wall went

01:11:43.900 down?

01:11:44.900 Yes.

01:11:45.900 Yes, I was 21.

01:11:46.900 Okay.

01:11:47.900 I told you, you know, during our pre-interview.

01:11:49.900 It's just amazing set of events.

01:11:52.900 You really live second life within the same life because the changes that we went through

01:11:58.900 were so drastic.

01:12:00.900 It was a completely different country almost overnight, right?

01:12:04.900 It was from very like strict almost North Korea type of a country.

01:12:08.900 We went to the place where we actually had a real parliament, real congress where people

01:12:15.900 were discussing issues.

01:12:16.900 And they were translated live on every TV channel.

01:12:19.900 I keep because I'm ahead in the race.

01:12:22.900 Probably still small.

01:12:23.900 I think you're ahead.

01:12:24.900 Yeah.

01:12:25.900 You're definitely ahead.

01:12:26.900 Probably still small take because I don't have much of a board.

01:12:28.900 But if you don't, if you pass it, I wouldn't blame you too.

01:12:31.900 So, and people would look.

01:12:34.900 I'll take it.

01:12:35.900 So if I'm taking it, I put it here or what do I do?

01:12:37.900 You put it in.

01:12:38.900 You can put it here.

01:12:39.900 Okay.

01:12:40.900 So you have opportunity to give it at four anytime, you know, and punish me for my stupidity.

01:12:49.900 And suddenly you have these people on TV discussing real issues and you feel real democracy.

01:12:57.900 That was really the once in a lifetime experience.

01:13:01.900 Imagine having a C-SPAN channel, right, which shows like a congress discussions and everybody

01:13:09.900 in the country would be watching it like something like some pop show, like some concert, you

01:13:14.900 know, like something like very, very hot.

01:13:15.900 That was the situation in the Soviet Union for a couple of years because nobody was exposed

01:13:21.900 before to the, or had experience to have a live open discussion about anything.

01:13:26.900 So everybody was watching, everybody was tracking it.

01:13:29.900 It's amazing.

01:13:30.900 And it was also the new opportunity.

01:13:32.900 So actually within a year after the Berlin Wall, you know, fall, I opened the company,

01:13:40.900 real estate company in Moscow with two young partners.

01:13:43.900 We didn't know what we were doing, but it was interesting.

01:13:45.900 It was one of the first companies.

01:13:46.900 That's the one you were telling about, the real estate.

01:13:47.900 You guys got money.

01:13:48.900 Yeah.

01:13:49.900 First time you see any dollars, you know, we were incredibly poor, everyone.

01:13:52.900 And I remember we made our first deal to like, you know, sell some apartment and we

01:13:57.900 got enough money to travel to overseas, which was another amazing thing.

01:14:02.900 Nobody could do that before.

01:14:03.900 And we flew 11 hours to the Canadian islands, which was in Spain.

01:14:08.900 And I felt as rich as Rockefeller probably never did.

01:14:11.900 You know, it wasn't because you never saw any money before.

01:14:14.900 And you just, it felt to me like, like it's a limitless opportunity.

01:14:18.900 Like, like I can do anything.

01:14:20.900 Like I'm a king of the world.

01:14:21.900 There.

01:14:22.900 Yes, there.

01:14:23.900 Though I had still had nothing, relatively nothing.

01:14:25.900 But compared to what we had before or what we were before, the opportunity really, you

01:14:30.900 know, that's what changed.

01:14:31.900 What do you think is tougher?

01:14:32.900 Do you think it's tougher for a regime to go from communism to capitalism or from capitalism

01:14:36.900 to communism?

01:14:37.900 Which one is tougher to do?

01:14:39.900 I wouldn't even put it directly like that, like communism, but I would say it's

01:14:44.900 always more difficult to improve things than, and it's easy to make things work.

01:14:49.900 I love that answer.

01:14:50.900 Oh my gosh.

01:14:51.900 What a powerful answer.

01:14:52.900 I think it's so easy to screw up things.

01:14:54.900 What a powerful answer.

01:14:55.900 You know, it is.

01:14:56.900 It is.

01:14:57.900 Like we see many examples.

01:14:58.900 People get complacent.

01:14:59.900 Yes.

01:15:00.900 They think, oh, we're so rich.

01:15:01.900 You know, we're rich.

01:15:02.900 I mean, we have great examples.

01:15:03.900 I mean, look at GM, General Motors.

01:15:05.900 Biggest company in the world in the 70s and 80s.

01:15:07.900 Like, look like they were dominating the world.

01:15:09.900 Yeah.

01:15:10.900 Within what?

01:15:11.900 Like 25 years?

01:15:12.900 Bankrupt.

01:15:13.900 Like nothing.

01:15:14.900 Completely nothing.

01:15:15.900 You know, need to be saved.

01:15:16.900 You know?

01:15:17.900 Like they were on the top of the world within one generation, you know?

01:15:20.900 And it's so easy because we live during unprecedented times in terms of how quickly things change.

01:15:26.900 We live during such an informational revolution, you know, all these new companies bring things

01:15:30.900 that happen during our lifetime and changes.

01:15:32.900 My opinion probably never happened during any of the lifetimes of previous generations.

01:15:37.900 And that's what makes us different.

01:15:38.900 Amazing number.

01:15:39.900 That's an amazing number.

01:15:40.900 If you weren't going to get that, I was going to give you a...

01:15:43.900 Too early.

01:15:44.900 That would be too optimistic to give a cue because you're behind in the race.

01:15:47.900 But that's an amazing number.

01:15:48.900 That was...

01:15:49.900 The game is over right now.

01:15:50.900 I mean, it's...

01:15:51.900 Pretty much.

01:15:52.900 It's very difficult for you to win this race.

01:15:53.900 That's impossible for me to win it right now.

01:15:54.900 Unless you roll a few double sixes.

01:15:55.900 So is there any way that a regular person can play against you online?

01:15:59.900 Do you play on any apps, anywhere that...

01:16:01.900 Any websites or...

01:16:02.900 I play just with friends and for fun on Greed Gammon.

01:16:06.900 Greed?

01:16:07.900 Greed Gammon.

01:16:08.900 Greed, G-R-E-E-D, Gammon.

01:16:10.900 Yes.

01:16:11.900 And that's an app.

01:16:12.900 Yeah.

01:16:13.900 Yeah.

01:16:14.900 And I give lessons there too.

01:16:16.900 When I talk to students, we sometimes play the match and we would be on FaceTime or Skype

01:16:21.900 and just discuss plays.

01:16:22.900 So if somebody wants to get a hold of you, what website do they go to?

01:16:25.900 It's victorashkinazi.com, you know, surprisingly.

01:16:28.900 My first and last name in one word.

01:16:31.900 And yes, you can inquire about lessons there and just general background questions.

01:16:36.900 Victorashkinazi.com.

01:16:37.900 Let me ask you.

01:16:38.900 What I just did.

01:16:39.900 Yeah.

01:16:40.900 I went here, here.

01:16:41.900 I would do exactly the same thing.

01:16:42.900 You wouldn't do this because it's later a little bit in the game?

01:16:45.900 Again, remember what I said before.

01:16:46.900 Yes.

01:16:47.900 You play more aggressive when your board is better than opponent.

01:16:50.900 So in this situation, my board is better because I made a five point already.

01:16:53.900 Okay.

01:16:54.900 You have nothing.

01:16:55.900 I got it.

01:16:56.900 It's much more dangerous for you to get hit now.

01:16:57.900 Anytime I hit you, I'm going to start cubing.

01:16:59.900 Tell me the importance of this.

01:17:00.900 Why this?

01:17:01.900 Why is this so important?

01:17:03.900 Why is one three the most important?

01:17:05.900 Because five, why five point is the most important?

01:17:08.900 It closes to six and it builds your prime from the top.

01:17:10.900 So after that, every point, the highest point, more important than less.

01:17:14.900 So it's more important than this.

01:17:15.900 So if I make this point instead of five, for example, you know, my position is like a Swiss cheese.

01:17:20.900 You know, it just, it has so many holes.

01:17:22.900 Here I'm building so-called prime.

01:17:24.900 Yeah.

01:17:25.900 Right?

01:17:26.900 Prime is the points in a row in backgammon.

01:17:27.900 Got it.

01:17:28.900 So I have an opportunity to build this point.

01:17:29.900 It will be already three, four point prime.

01:17:30.900 Got it.

01:17:31.900 And hopefully I can hold some checkers of you behind my prime.

01:17:35.900 But if I build low points, it creates a lot of holes in the position.

01:17:39.900 Too easy to come in.

01:17:40.900 You know, you don't hold, you don't hold this position well.

01:17:43.900 So what's the second best thing to start off with?

01:17:45.900 Two, four?

01:17:46.900 Five, then four.

01:17:47.900 Yeah.

01:17:48.900 Two, four.

01:17:49.900 Then three, five.

01:17:50.900 Absolutely.

01:17:51.900 Yes.

01:17:52.900 So you wouldn't say six, one?

01:17:53.900 Six, one actually a little better than three, five.

01:17:54.900 The bar point.

01:17:55.900 Six, one this point.

01:17:56.900 Six, six?

01:17:57.900 Six, six you cannot start with because everybody are all one die first, right?

01:18:00.900 But yeah, six, six actually great.

01:18:02.900 Got it.

01:18:03.900 Double ace is amazing number because you build five and the bar point.

01:18:06.900 Got it.

01:18:07.900 Again, thank you so much for joining us here on Valuetainment.

01:18:08.900 And being willing to play an amateur backgammon.

01:18:12.900 Thanks for your time.

01:18:13.900 I had an amazing time.

01:18:14.900 Thanks everybody for listening.

01:18:15.900 And by the way, if you haven't already subscribed to Valuetainment on iTunes, please do so.

01:18:20.900 Give us a five star.

01:18:21.900 Write a review if you haven't already.

01:18:23.900 If you have any questions for me that you may have, you can always find me on Snapchat, Instagram, Facebook, or YouTube.

01:18:29.900 Just search my name, Patrick MidDavid.

01:18:31.900 And I actually do respond back when you snap me or send me a message on Instagram.

01:18:36.900 And with that being said, have a great day today.

01:18:37.900 Take care everybody.

01:18:38.900 Bye bye.

01:18:39.900 We'll be right back.

Valuetainment - November 30, 2018

Episode 221： Goldman Sachs to Backgammon Grand Master Predicts Market Crash

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