Valuetainment - December 13, 2018


Episode 230： JFK Assassination Autopsy Details Revealed After 55 Years


Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 5 minutes

Words per minute

169.55005

Word count

11,179

Sentence count

877

Harmful content

Hate speech

2

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

On this episode of Let's Talk Conspiracy, host Patrick Bodeen sits down with one of the three men who held John F. Kennedy's brain in the autopsy room to discuss the JFK assassination and why he thinks two people were behind the killing of our president.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.880 30 seconds. One time for the underdog. Ignition sequence start.
00:00:07.000 Let me see you put them up. Reach the sky, touch the stars up above.
00:00:11.120 Cause it's one time for the underdog. One time for the underdog.
00:00:17.320 I'm Patrick Bedeby, host of Aletainment, and the one topic we're going to talk about today is JFK.
00:00:21.760 You know, the JFK assassination when it happened November 22nd, 1963.
00:00:26.240 It is a story till today, so many different conspiracies.
00:00:30.360 I went to one of three men who held John F. Kennedy's brain in the autopsy room to give us some insight of what he thinks on who was involved.
00:00:39.680 And he breaks down two people who had the biggest motivation to eliminate our president, get rid of our president.
00:00:46.120 And some tells me you're going to be blown away by what his answers are.
00:00:49.040 Jim, thank you so much for coming down and being willing to open up and talk about this topic with us.
00:00:53.880 Thank you for inviting me.
00:00:54.920 You're documented all over the place.
00:00:56.560 If you go read any of the, you know, the autopsies, any of the reports, whether it's the Warren Commission, whatever the reports you read, you're documented.
00:01:03.540 There are somebody that was a part of it.
00:01:05.400 But you've not wanted to come out and talk a lot about it.
00:01:08.740 Now, obviously, William, a friend of yours who decided to write a book with you, kind of maybe persuaded you to say,
00:01:14.880 this is a story we need to go tell.
00:01:16.340 Are you willing to do it?
00:01:17.240 But first, I want to thank you.
00:01:19.220 Secondly, is I want to kind of get some thoughts from you on what caused you not want to talk about it all these years and why now are you a little bit more comfortable?
00:01:29.960 I have to answer the people who ask me.
00:01:33.520 It's like, you know, if I had told you when I was in graduate school that I did the autopsy on JFK, would you have believed me?
00:01:42.540 And that's kind of the way that I look at it.
00:01:45.180 Was a part of it the fact that you didn't think people would believe you if you told them that?
00:01:50.040 Because if we were friends, let's just say I'm your friend and I'm your best man at your wedding or you're my best man at my wedding.
00:01:55.380 And you told me something like that, I'd be like, oh, my gosh, Jim, that's crazy.
00:01:57.860 Really, tell me about it.
00:01:58.880 I'd want to know more as a friend on what you did.
00:02:00.780 You seem like a private guy.
00:02:02.480 You seem like a simple man.
00:02:03.740 You don't seem like a, you know, you seem like you just want to, you've been married since August of 63.
00:02:08.380 Was there also a part of it where you just didn't want people to have a certain level of intrusion on your personal life?
00:02:13.280 I think a lot of it was that.
00:02:15.440 Okay.
00:02:15.960 There's a lot of memories that I have in that book that are specific, but there are other things in the book that I remember that I've tried to, you know, I tried to tie in some of the events.
00:02:28.580 When I first began this book, I was going to read, and I have all kinds of books.
00:02:34.580 I have a bookcase of books that people have sent me over the years.
00:02:38.780 I haven't read them.
00:02:39.840 I'm from Iran.
00:02:40.840 So I was born in Iran.
00:02:41.820 I saw the war.
00:02:42.600 I saw people dying.
00:02:44.280 I saw things that happened that maybe you don't necessarily want to experience.
00:02:48.660 I saw some weird scenes in my life with 10,000 men flagellating their backs on the streets, and there's a streak of blood.
00:02:54.820 I mean, I was eight years old when I saw that.
00:02:56.180 That's not something I want to see again, right?
00:02:59.280 Was this one of those things where you said, man, this was so traumatic on me that I don't ever want to revisit it?
00:03:06.600 Or was it the fact that you were just doing your job?
00:03:08.900 You have a lack of interest on the topic?
00:03:10.520 Like, honestly, you know, it just so happened I accidentally was chosen to be a part of this.
00:03:15.020 I didn't choose to be a part of this.
00:03:16.600 I was just doing my job.
00:03:17.980 Which one would you say was more of you?
00:03:19.160 I think the latter.
00:03:19.940 Okay.
00:03:20.840 Got it.
00:03:21.020 This is not a, you know, it's just not a highlight of my life.
00:03:26.680 It hasn't affected my life at all, but I think that's because I really not participated in it.
00:03:34.420 What's the reasoning, though?
00:03:35.780 Paul O'Connor was the other corpsman.
00:03:38.400 Right.
00:03:38.720 By the way, just to say when you say the other corpsman, the other corpsman who was part of the autopsy.
00:03:42.320 Right.
00:03:42.680 There were two of us.
00:03:43.200 There was two of them.
00:03:44.040 There were only two of us.
00:03:44.680 Paul enjoyed this, you know, being involved and that type of thing.
00:03:49.560 I had other goals in my life.
00:03:51.480 Most of the participation that I have done was at the encouragement of Paul.
00:03:56.980 Paul would call me and say, well, you know, this individual wants to interview you.
00:04:02.300 I would be hesitant about it and he'd say, well, and Paul would tell me, well, he's a good guy.
00:04:06.440 But it was a reluctance on my part.
00:04:09.120 You know, I didn't want to get involved in all of what was going on.
00:04:12.380 Is this after the two gentlemen who were kind of hostile to you with the HSCA committee that they interviewed you?
00:04:18.740 Even after that you were open to it or after you're like, I'm not doing any interviews?
00:04:22.060 Well, the interview was interesting.
00:04:24.240 I was in graduate school at that time.
00:04:26.120 I was in my office and I got a call from a lady and she told me that these two individuals, Kelly and Purdy,
00:04:33.080 were going to show up at my house on such and such date at such and such time.
00:04:37.960 And they were going to talk to me about my participation in the autopsy.
00:04:44.100 I said, no, you're not.
00:04:46.000 I said, you're not going to come to my house.
00:04:48.000 I don't know you.
00:04:49.120 You're strangers.
00:04:50.400 So then she told me that this was a Congress mandated commission and that I was compelled to do this or they would subpoena me.
00:05:00.800 At that time I was at Jackson, Mississippi in the medical school there.
00:05:05.760 And so I went to my local congressman.
00:05:10.340 One of his aides checked to make sure that this was legitimate and he suggested that I meet in his office.
00:05:17.340 So I met Purdy and Kelly in his office.
00:05:20.960 It wasn't an amiable type situation.
00:05:22.800 They had told me that that Purdy and Kelly were actually lawyers for the House Select Committee and where they were going to come to take a deposition.
00:05:31.680 Well, when the secretary for the congressman checked their credentials, we found out that indeed Purdy was an attorney, but Kelly was an FBI agent.
00:05:44.840 What were they trying to get from you, though?
00:05:46.380 I mean, what did they were they conspiracy, conspiratory side?
00:05:49.880 Were they trying to.
00:05:50.880 They basically were looking for a confirmation of the Warren Commission findings.
00:05:56.060 They wanted me to confirm.
00:05:58.300 That the magic bullet was.
00:05:59.800 Yeah.
00:06:00.360 Yeah.
00:06:00.980 And in a single bullet theory was correct.
00:06:04.300 And they never really asked me, you know, basically what what I did, what I saw or what I participate in.
00:06:13.800 And every time I would they were they were always saying, well, that can't possibly happen because of this, this and this.
00:06:22.980 They say, well, you know, another witness has said this.
00:06:26.820 There are there was only the doctors and Paul.
00:06:31.720 Well, so I knew that, you know, what they were saying came from from one of those individuals.
00:06:39.580 And this was you knew that in a moment based on the question, because, see, I until Paul call me in and talk to me about this interview or this deposition.
00:06:51.680 And I really never discussed the autopsy with Paul and so wait a minute.
00:06:57.540 So after the autopsy, you and Paul didn't have a debrief, you guys didn't talk about it, nothing ever.
00:07:02.340 Oh, no, no, because we were given orders.
00:07:05.540 You know, we were given orders by the secretary of the Navy and also by the Department of Defense not to discuss it.
00:07:16.940 So so the only reason you were open to the House committee coming to you is because it's coming from Congress.
00:07:21.540 Well, that plus, plus that was the first time they rescinded the orders.
00:07:26.620 Got it.
00:07:27.840 We they sent us letters for sending the orders when they interviewed you.
00:07:31.680 Did you get a feeling that they were for what the Warren Commission came out and the results?
00:07:37.880 That's what they said. Or were they against it to try to get conspiracy?
00:07:41.580 Were they kind of trying to get the checkmark from you to say that he also agrees that what they said in the Warren Commission is accurate?
00:07:46.800 I believe this. I mean, that was my my feeling.
00:07:49.820 Did you watch JFK movies? Did you watch the interview? Did you watch anything?
00:07:53.860 So you don't know till today? You don't you don't watch or follow any of this.
00:07:57.880 You've never been to the Dealey Plaza before. No.
00:08:00.220 For 55 years, you have fully disconnected that part of your life to not have to be tied to it.
00:08:07.300 I was actually surprised about the personal interest that people had in this after the 50 years.
00:08:17.560 You were surprised by that? Oh, yes.
00:08:19.820 Why would you be surprised by it? It's a president that was assassinated with you.
00:08:22.920 Well, I mean, the assassination to me is such an enigma in that it's never had a legal conclusion.
00:08:30.440 The conclusion has always been political.
00:08:32.920 Would you want to see a legal conclusion?
00:08:34.460 Yes, I'd like to see.
00:08:35.460 Would you participate in a legal conclusion?
00:08:37.660 Oh, so you would be.
00:08:38.740 Yeah.
00:08:38.960 So it's not the fact that you're just trying to set it aside and not do anything with it.
00:08:45.020 So you would be you would like to see like, you know, I think it was 1995 when they came out with the ARRB when they came out and they wanted to reinvestigate and find out what's going on.
00:08:56.280 And they went through certain things.
00:08:57.620 You would want to see somebody else open it up again to go through an investigation and find out what happened.
00:09:03.340 A legal investigation.
00:09:04.800 I know.
00:09:05.260 Not political.
00:09:06.000 Not political.
00:09:06.380 A legal investigation.
00:09:06.820 But everything, even the record review board, which is what you're speaking of, it had restrictions when the Clark Commission was there.
00:09:18.060 All of the people appointed to the Clark Commission had ties to the government.
00:09:22.540 They had obligations to the government.
00:09:24.880 The pathologists that reviewed the case and so forth are the doctors.
00:09:31.020 I'm not sure all of them were pathologists, but they had ties to doctors.
00:09:36.000 They had grants.
00:09:37.880 They were participating in federal projects and that type of stuff.
00:09:42.680 And the ones that probably would have been more objective, certainly people like Dr. Sarah Weck, after the House Elect, they were kind of excluded.
00:09:56.240 They were all pushed away.
00:09:57.600 So there's never, in my mind, in my opinion, there's never been a real objective committee or anything that's delved into this.
00:10:08.600 Why do you think?
00:10:09.760 Why?
00:10:10.280 Is it because if we found that, we would all be...
00:10:13.280 Well, I think that we, that gets into some things.
00:10:19.480 And I'm only judging, I can only judge by the autopsy.
00:10:23.020 And there are vastly more people out there that know more about anything outside of that morgue than I do.
00:10:29.940 But I, it just doesn't make sense that what we saw at the morgue, what we did at the morgue, and what I participate in, like the brain.
00:10:41.720 You know, there were two FBI agents that said there was no brain.
00:10:46.520 Paul said there was no brain.
00:10:49.180 But yet, Dr. Humes took a brain out of the cranium, handed it to Dr. Boswell.
00:10:55.220 Dr. Boswell and I went over, and I knelt down, and he gave me the brain.
00:11:02.020 I turned it upside down and put it in the sling.
00:11:04.220 You did.
00:11:04.780 I did.
00:11:05.120 So you held John F. Kennedy's brain.
00:11:06.380 Yes.
00:11:06.920 Well, I assume it was John F. Kennedy's brain.
00:11:10.220 Well, that's one other part, right?
00:11:11.580 Right.
00:11:12.440 And, but, you know, as the book describes and that, I don't know if it, I've been asked many times, is it, was it John F. Kennedy's brain?
00:11:23.280 Do you think it was?
00:11:24.280 I haven't, I really don't have any, any way of knowing, and neither does anyone else unless somebody who, who really participated in, in, you know, covering up some parts of the assassination can come forth and say.
00:11:43.980 Now, I'm also pessimistic in that, since there's so much stuff that's come out that if I relate it back to what I saw and so forth, there's always a question about it.
00:11:56.040 It sounds like you believe it's important for us to know the truth on what happened.
00:11:59.640 But you also believe that if it's a government investigation being done, whoever's involved on the inside, if it's only the government controlling it, not on the other side, we're only going to get the answer from somebody who's on the inside.
00:12:11.300 Well, for instance, I've worked with a friend of mine who's a neurologist.
00:12:16.540 I've tried to be allowed to go into the archives and review the photographs and the evidence that they have there.
00:12:28.100 I've been denied, but yet, he, he was allowed in, and to see the x-rays and so forth.
00:12:36.080 Now, those x-rays I participated in.
00:12:39.960 I actually helped position the body and so forth, and on the first set of x-rays that we did.
00:12:47.340 I remember the first photographs when the head was first unwrapped, they took photographs all during the autopsy, and I was busy, so I really wasn't paying much attention to that.
00:12:56.660 But the photographs from the fox photographs, they're strange.
00:13:03.260 But let me ask you this, because you said you didn't have interest, but why were you asking to want to get the photographs?
00:13:09.760 Was there a moment where you kind of felt obligated to want to find out again some answers?
00:13:14.120 Because it sounds like there's a little bit of conflict in the willingness, the desire, and also at the same time wanting to stay away.
00:13:20.820 Three years ago, I committed to this, to writing this book, and all of this has occurred within that time frame.
00:13:28.280 So you asked for the photographs in the last three years?
00:13:30.380 Oh, yeah.
00:13:30.980 So your desire to want to go deeper on this is the last three years?
00:13:34.200 Well, I have talked to, like I said, a friend of mine, the neurologist, and he and I have discussed what he saw in the archives and what I remember seeing, or what I actually participate in and remember seeing.
00:13:49.240 We've come to some conclusions, but not really things that I would consider to be emphatically true, okay?
00:13:57.800 As far as participating in this, three years ago, when I finally agreed to do this, if William would finish, because I'm basically thinning in medicine and science, and I'm not a journalist or a writer, and he agreed to help with it.
00:14:16.160 Then his first suggestion was that I needed to start reading the material.
00:14:21.160 I started a couple of books, but then I began to realize that if I read all of this material, then I may have a little brain melt, you know, and it might come in because, you know, 50-year-old memories are difficult enough to begin with.
00:14:42.260 So I stopped doing that, and then I began to talk to the people that I knew were at Bethesda, not necessarily in the morgue, but were at Bethesda.
00:14:52.860 And then I was fortunate enough to be able to talk to the honor guard people, a gentleman named Dennis David, who was in charge of a detail that actually...
00:15:06.120 He was an E-6 who became an officer later on, and he served for 11 years, I think.
00:15:09.980 Right.
00:15:10.140 What did he tell you when you spoke to him?
00:15:12.600 Well, he and I talked about the unloading of the body from the black hearse.
00:15:18.540 Dennis gave me more of a time frame than anything else because I was in the morgue actually from about 3.30 in the afternoon to about 8, 9 o'clock the next morning.
00:15:28.560 You knew the body was coming?
00:15:30.520 We were told the body was coming, yes.
00:15:32.480 Would you mind us going through the timeline of what happened from the moment they found out he's dead to the moment...
00:15:42.380 Because that's where the challenge is with this story, right?
00:15:45.360 I mean, you did the autopsy stuff.
00:15:46.440 The challenge for me when I look at it, I'm a numbers guy.
00:15:48.580 So, first they find out he's dead.
00:15:51.880 Boom.
00:15:52.320 Checkmark.
00:15:53.380 Then they say, let's put his body...
00:15:55.660 They wrap him up in a nice...
00:15:57.020 They put him in a really nice casket.
00:15:58.940 They take him to Air Force One.
00:16:00.540 That's number two.
00:16:01.940 Lyndon Johnson's waiting there rather than going back to D.C.
00:16:05.900 to have the body being delivered to the plane, which is kind of a little bit wild for that.
00:16:10.220 Gets to Air Force One.
00:16:11.760 Then they fly back to Bethesda, D.C.
00:16:14.480 They land.
00:16:15.980 They take that nice casket and they put it in the automobile that Jackie Kennedy is riding in to go to where you're at, the morgue.
00:16:24.120 They arrive actually at 7.30, but the body doesn't come in...
00:16:27.400 7.17.
00:16:28.800 And the body doesn't come in till 8.
00:16:30.480 And the challenge that I'm seeing there is another automobile delivers a casket that's used for Vietnam veterans back in the day.
00:16:39.380 It's just a cheapy type of casket that apparently they took John F. Kennedy and they put him in a body bag and they put him there.
00:16:45.180 And that was brought to you guys at around 6.30 and you had an hour and a half before 8 o'clock.
00:16:51.400 So, that's the part that's conflicting here.
00:16:55.320 See, and again, too, I really don't have any insight into that either.
00:17:00.480 But the report, you read the Bojean report and all of that, the numbers, him and Dennis David's timing.
00:17:06.740 And see, I had to have a timeline for this as I was writing it.
00:17:12.160 I had no personal timeline because, you know, all I saw was the body being brought in in what I consider to be a shipping casket.
00:17:23.820 That was striking in the fact is that it was the president's body in that such an ordinary plane.
00:17:30.360 You saw that?
00:17:31.280 Yes, yes, I did.
00:17:32.220 You saw the shipping casket?
00:17:33.420 Yes, I did.
00:17:34.420 And that's not typical protocol to put a president under a shipping casket.
00:17:38.060 I wouldn't think so.
00:17:38.840 You witnessed that yourself.
00:17:40.120 Yes, I saw it.
00:17:41.080 Checkmark not time, but you saw that part.
00:17:43.300 Yeah, the casket came in.
00:17:45.180 It was brought in by people.
00:17:49.640 They were in business suits.
00:17:54.080 And there may have been a couple of military officers with it.
00:17:57.740 But they were brought, it was brought in.
00:17:59.500 And it was brought into the morgue proper, sat down on the floor.
00:18:05.720 Paul helped them take the body out, and they put the body on the table in front of me.
00:18:13.500 Now, I've used, I used Dennis David's timeline.
00:18:17.180 And I use it because Sergeant Borgen's action report stated 635.
00:18:23.780 Several years ago, we talked to an individual.
00:18:26.920 His name was, well, he was Dr. J. Scott, I believe.
00:18:31.320 And he's told us that he was the officer of the day for the Bethesda Hospital.
00:18:37.480 During the conversation with William Law, William asked him what time the body came in.
00:18:43.760 And he immediately said 630.
00:18:45.600 So I took Sergeant Borgen and Dr. Scott as collaboration for the time that Dennis quoted.
00:18:55.000 And then I used that time as a timeline for the autopsy.
00:19:01.320 At that point in time, I had memories, but I wasn't quite sure of sequencing of them.
00:19:09.620 And then over the three years that I've been writing this book, I basically just write sections and certain things and so forth.
00:19:19.220 And then each section would begin to support or ask or create questions about that particular memory.
00:19:26.260 The timeline that I use, like I said, is Dennis's.
00:19:30.580 That timeline gave me the ability to say the body was here at 630.
00:19:35.720 When the body was put on the table, everybody was asked to leave.
00:19:40.280 The body was still, it was on the table, still wrapped into sheets.
00:19:43.760 The head and the body was separate.
00:19:45.260 And then Dr. Boswell left the morgue for, I don't know, 15, 20 minutes maybe.
00:19:53.140 And I just assumed he was going back up to the laboratory to, you know, talk to Dr. Humes.
00:19:59.360 While the body's in front of you?
00:20:00.940 Yeah, the body's in the morgue, in the morgue with Paul and I.
00:20:04.260 At this is what time?
00:20:05.220 I assumed that that had to be somewhere between 630 and 7 o'clock.
00:20:12.440 If I say it took them approximately 10 minutes to unload the body from the hearse and bring it to that.
00:20:20.320 Because, see, Dennis and his group or his crew, they did not bring it into the morgue.
00:20:28.740 They brought it to the morgue door, according to Dennis.
00:20:33.020 From the back.
00:20:35.120 Yeah, and somebody took it from there.
00:20:37.820 The morgue was set up where there was a little ante room that had coal boxes where we would put the bodies to me.
00:20:44.700 And then it came into the morgue proper.
00:20:47.840 So let me ask you, from the moment it was delivered to the morgue from the back,
00:20:51.940 not the one with Jackie Kennedy that arrived around 730 to 8 o'clock.
00:20:55.100 I'm talking the one that arrived early.
00:20:56.840 From that moment where it showed up in that cheap casket to the moment where you saw it,
00:21:02.580 what was that timeline?
00:21:03.700 I would say probably no more than five minutes.
00:21:07.880 Okay.
00:21:08.260 Because you just unloaded onto the dock and then brought into the double doors and then morgues immediately to the left.
00:21:18.440 As soon as it came through the door from the ante room, then I saw the casket.
00:21:22.760 And that's what I remember.
00:21:25.680 And the reason I remember that is the fact is that it was such a plain casket.
00:21:31.500 And that struck me as being that the president's body would be in a transport casket.
00:21:38.640 Now this entire time Jackie's thinking the bodies and the ornate casket that she is driving in,
00:21:42.960 that that's the one that's being delivered.
00:21:44.260 I really, on my part, that would be conjecture or speculation.
00:21:49.920 Got it.
00:21:50.500 And I'm not comfortable with that, with getting into that.
00:21:54.980 Let's come back to when the body came in.
00:21:56.920 When the body first came in and you saw it, did you notice anything out of the ordinary?
00:22:01.680 The body was wrapped, you know, the head was wrapped in sheets and the body was wrapped separately in sheets.
00:22:08.960 The body was taken out of the casket.
00:22:10.720 The morgue had two tables.
00:22:12.280 We did the autopsy on the table where I was.
00:22:15.260 The casket, the body was actually taken out between the back table and it was on the floor.
00:22:22.680 And it was put on the table in front of me.
00:22:25.320 At that time, Dr. Boswell thanked everybody and asked them to leave.
00:22:29.660 And everyone left the morgue.
00:22:30.820 Then Dr. Boswell left and Paul and I were there.
00:22:35.060 We were told not to unwrap the body and not to let anyone in the morgue.
00:22:40.040 And about 15 minutes, I'd say about 15 minutes later, Dr. Boswell came back and we unwrapped the body.
00:22:50.060 We left the head wrapped.
00:22:51.200 And then we spread a sheet over from the waist down.
00:22:54.800 And then Dr. Boswell handed me the clipboard, what we call a face sheet.
00:22:59.220 It's a form where you put all scars, wounds, any surgical, traumatic, whatever.
00:23:07.480 It's basically a superficial description of everything before you go to the body.
00:23:15.260 We were doing that as we were doing that.
00:23:18.380 I was writing down what Dr. Boswell was telling me.
00:23:22.720 It was a little unusual to be doing it that way.
00:23:25.400 It was usually the other way around.
00:23:27.060 And while we were doing that, just almost when we were finished, Dr. Humes came in and he had a...
00:23:34.260 He was followed by, I believe, three or four military officers.
00:23:41.080 They were flag-grade.
00:23:43.680 In other words, they were admirals or generals.
00:23:46.680 Got it.
00:23:47.080 The officers went into the gallery.
00:23:49.100 Dr. Humes came to the table.
00:23:50.640 I'm not exactly sure when Dr. Fink came in.
00:23:55.220 He was there when Humes unwrapped the head.
00:23:57.480 That's kind of convictory to what he says.
00:24:03.520 I mean, his report to his commanding officer, which he said he didn't come in until the brain,
00:24:11.200 the heart, and the lungs were out of the body.
00:24:14.300 When Dr. Humes, he unwrapped the head, he and Dr. Fink examined the head.
00:24:22.160 Right in front of you.
00:24:23.420 Oh, yeah.
00:24:23.780 Well, I'm standing at the shoulder.
00:24:25.380 I'm standing at the right shoulder of the president, looking down like that.
00:24:30.000 And at this point, how many autopsies have you done yourself up to this point?
00:24:34.460 And how many brains have you seen?
00:24:36.180 Oh, I don't know.
00:24:37.220 We, when I started, you know, it was Mary and August.
00:24:42.220 We went immediately to Bethesda.
00:24:44.220 I started doing my duty.
00:24:46.380 I was a student there.
00:24:47.700 I had classes and so forth.
00:24:49.180 But every fourth night, I had duty, and we would do two, maybe three, autopsies a night.
00:24:56.020 So I really don't know how many I had done.
00:24:58.660 So you've seen a number of different wounded brains.
00:25:02.580 You've seen different scenarios.
00:25:04.780 Most of the things that we did at Bethesda were actually patients from the hospital.
00:25:11.440 I remember only probably one other trauma that I remember is that a sailor had a night out and hit a concrete barrier.
00:25:20.220 Most of the others were people who had died from that.
00:25:24.480 We had drownings from Annapolis.
00:25:27.600 Had you seen any other shooting?
00:25:28.980 Like, had you done an autopsy where there was a...
00:25:31.020 No, I had not.
00:25:32.600 Got it.
00:25:33.060 No.
00:25:33.400 So while you're looking at Fink and Hume's doing what they're doing, what did you notice?
00:25:37.740 Did you see anything different?
00:25:38.920 You know, the description of the head wound that is in the autopsy report hesitate to use the word spin,
00:25:45.740 but I think it's a spin on what we really saw.
00:25:50.460 Could you elaborate, please?
00:25:51.460 Well, it's actually the size of the wound, location of the wound.
00:25:58.300 I believe that the measurement that's in the autopsy report actually is the measurement of the wound,
00:26:05.120 not of the opening where the bone and scalp was missing,
00:26:09.120 but it actually was a measurement of the total wound shown after the scalp was reflected.
00:26:18.120 In other words, the whole right side of the head was mouthful.
00:26:22.600 You could actually just move it around with your hands.
00:26:24.820 The skull was fractured in multiple areas from...
00:26:29.980 Would you mind if we take out the brain and you kind of show it to us what you mean by that?
00:26:33.460 A little bit more visual.
00:26:34.280 Is that okay with you?
00:26:36.460 Okay.
00:26:36.780 Now, the description of the wound is not going to be...
00:26:40.540 This is not going to give you a description of the wound itself.
00:26:45.060 It's only going to be the skull.
00:26:46.920 The skull is going to give you a description of the wound.
00:26:48.680 This will give you an idea of what I saw the brain look like as opposed to the extensive damage
00:26:58.860 that was in the autopsy report.
00:27:02.740 And this brain, the brain that I had, the...
00:27:08.360 This should be about to hit it.
00:27:11.140 The damage for this brain was basically in this area here.
00:27:19.260 That's what you saw?
00:27:20.440 Yeah.
00:27:20.780 Okay.
00:27:21.340 There's a portion of the brain here that was missing.
00:27:26.780 Fully missing?
00:27:27.600 Yeah.
00:27:27.940 Okay.
00:27:28.960 But it was less than a third of the total brain.
00:27:33.140 Less than a third of the total brain or less than a third of half the brain?
00:27:36.880 No.
00:27:37.060 The right side of the brain?
00:27:37.740 No, it was less than a third of the total brain.
00:27:39.920 Got it.
00:27:40.220 Okay.
00:27:40.440 It was approximately an area right here.
00:27:43.420 Got it.
00:27:44.180 Okay.
00:27:44.580 That's significant because in the autopsy report, they say that over half of the total brain
00:27:52.760 was missing.
00:27:54.120 The other thing in the autopsy report, they say that there was a deep laceration that ran
00:27:59.580 this way and was internally down into the ventricles here.
00:28:06.800 And then also in the ear, they had a description of it penetrating into this area here.
00:28:16.180 Now, the wound that I saw, this is the occipital area here and the parietal area here.
00:28:22.540 And then the temporal area in here.
00:28:25.440 The wound was here about approximately where my finger is and it extended down here.
00:28:32.720 It was about three and a half inches long, this being the length, about two inches wide.
00:28:40.220 Okay.
00:28:41.220 That was where the missing bone was and the missing tissue was.
00:28:44.320 Okay.
00:28:45.320 Okay.
00:28:46.320 It wasn't exactly a square or a round thing.
00:28:50.220 The top of it, of the wound was kind of domed and it came down and kind of had a little tail
00:28:58.200 type thing that came back down into here.
00:29:01.700 And then it kind of came back up in this area.
00:29:05.780 Now, the strange thing about it was at this top of the wound here, there was an incision
00:29:11.920 in the scalp that went approximately to the coronal suture here, went a little bit past here.
00:29:20.400 An incision.
00:29:21.400 An incision.
00:29:22.400 That you saw.
00:29:23.400 Right.
00:29:24.400 It was actually, see.
00:29:25.600 Why would there be an incision?
00:29:27.220 That's a good question.
00:29:28.560 The scalp had, you know, remember, all of this portion in this area is fractured, okay, to
00:29:37.960 the sagittal suture, which is this suture.
00:29:40.880 All of this area was fractured, but it wasn't gone.
00:29:45.200 It was still being kept intact by the scalp.
00:29:48.460 The scalp had rents and tears in it.
00:29:51.060 Now, along this area, it seemed like that some of those tears in the scalp had been surgically
00:30:02.680 connected.
00:30:03.680 The little connections to follow a fracture line in here, okay.
00:30:10.920 And that extended to about here, okay.
00:30:13.940 You know, that was the same.
00:30:16.060 And when Dr. Humes took the wrappings off of the head, there was a secondary wrapping
00:30:22.060 on it that I, you know, I think was a towel, but the scalp and the whole thing, this was
00:30:29.520 all matted hair and missing scalp, torn scalp, fatty tissue from underneath the scalp.
00:30:37.060 Which is all normal.
00:30:38.060 Yeah, which is all normal, okay.
00:30:39.940 It had kind of stuck to that secondary layer.
00:30:42.900 So as he was taking it off, this area kind of gapped open.
00:30:48.500 But as soon as we separated it from the towel, it went back together.
00:30:55.320 Now that's significant for the fact is that you could actually, if you wanted to do that,
00:31:05.800 you could actually lay this skull open.
00:31:08.560 You could actually take your hands and separate it.
00:31:12.160 Okay.
00:31:13.160 So that would have given you access to the brain.
00:31:17.320 Which means?
00:31:18.160 Which, again, speculation.
00:31:21.160 Sure.
00:31:22.160 Is that fact is that you would have had access, you possibly had access to the brain before we
00:31:28.580 received it in the morgue.
00:31:30.160 In the morgue.
00:31:31.160 But where would they?
00:31:32.160 That is, that's a question that I would ask.
00:31:34.760 Air Force One on the drive?
00:31:36.760 That's not enough time.
00:31:37.760 Would it be?
00:31:38.760 Well, I don't, there's a lot of theories, there's a lot of probabilities.
00:31:46.760 Last year, I have friends that were in school with me and I visited one of the friends in D.C.
00:31:54.160 And just out of curiosity, William Law and I, we actually went to visit Glencove, Glencove
00:32:02.660 Enix.
00:32:03.660 It was given to the military and before World War I.
00:32:10.260 It was under Walter Reed.
00:32:12.760 Walter Reed was responsible for it.
00:32:14.360 They used it for convalescence for World War I and World War II patients and so forth.
00:32:20.960 So I wanted to check out that because there was an individual, had speculated, he said
00:32:26.240 that surgery was done, a clandestine surgery was done at this Glencove annex.
00:32:33.080 And so we decided to see if it was possible.
00:32:35.860 We drove to the complex, drove back to the back gate at Bethesda, it was eight minutes,
00:32:44.460 GPS.
00:32:45.460 And the funeral home that was involved in it was Gawler's.
00:32:51.840 We actually timed the distance from Gawler's funeral home to Bethesda, which again was
00:32:57.300 about eight minutes.
00:32:59.180 Now, and recently we found that there may have been another funeral home that was involved
00:33:05.220 in it, Pumphrey's.
00:33:07.460 Pumphrey's supposedly had the contract with Bethesda Naval Hospital at that time.
00:33:17.840 Understand, I, my command was not the Naval Hospital.
00:33:22.620 My command was the Naval Medical School there.
00:33:25.420 There's also a possibility that the person, Tom Robinson, who performed, who actually prepared
00:33:32.940 the body along with a couple of other people, was not an employee of Gawler's.
00:33:38.320 He was an employee of Pumphrey's.
00:33:40.820 We haven't been able to confirm that.
00:33:42.820 I've tried in the last three years to get in touch with Tom Robinson, not been able to
00:33:50.240 do that.
00:33:51.240 What would be the difference if that was the case?
00:33:53.320 Well, I read an interview of Tom with a Swedish or Danish researcher.
00:34:02.700 Tom's description of the wounds and so forth are similar to mine.
00:34:09.440 And almost opposite of what's in, you know, what's being told in public and so forth.
00:34:16.480 The exaggeration of the wounds.
00:34:18.200 When we received the body, there were other things that were unusual.
00:34:23.020 The tracheotomy that we were told it was a tracheotomy in the throat, very unusual, even
00:34:28.800 for an emergency trach.
00:34:30.080 Why is that?
00:34:31.080 Well, first of all, I'd never really seen a trach that was done horizontally.
00:34:36.080 And I'd never seen a trach that was that large.
00:34:38.500 It also had some ragged edges.
00:34:40.820 Dr. Perry said that he actually had done that trach over a wound.
00:34:46.700 His description of the trach wound that he did was what you normally would expect.
00:34:57.000 But if you did a trach that was that wide, you would probably never do it because in
00:35:03.760 that area there would be a danger of damaging the thyroid.
00:35:08.200 So you wouldn't, it wouldn't be, even as an emergency trach, you wouldn't want to create
00:35:13.700 more damage.
00:35:15.700 And especially in this situation when you wouldn't want to damage one of the primary life supporting
00:35:23.700 organs.
00:35:24.700 That and the wound in the head, the only other wound that I actually saw was the one in the
00:35:34.700 back.
00:35:35.700 And it was, it was in the upper back at the upper border of the scapula.
00:35:44.000 But this is, that's the wound that was on the, on the head itself.
00:35:49.500 The wound wasn't obvious as to the extent of it and the margins and so forth until the
00:35:55.160 scalp was actually reflected back from it.
00:35:59.000 And when the scalp was reflected back, some of the bone that was adhered to the scalp had
00:36:05.000 fallen off of it, made it look larger than it really was.
00:36:09.000 And I think that's the measurement that's in the official autopsy.
00:36:14.000 So when you saw the brain, cause you know, the conspiracy is, it's not just one bullet,
00:36:19.000 the magic bullet, whatever you want to call it.
00:36:21.000 Uh, and there's shots from the front, not just from the back.
00:36:25.000 It's not just Oswald.
00:36:26.000 And by the way, no one's saying Oswald didn't shoot and he wasn't one of the shooters.
00:36:29.000 They're just saying that there may be somebody from the front as well that shot.
00:36:33.000 There's six or seven shots.
00:36:34.000 What's your thoughts on that from what you saw?
00:36:36.000 If in fact Oswald did shoot from the depository, the wound that was in the back that I saw
00:36:46.000 was not a fatal one.
00:36:47.000 The wound that I saw in the right temple.
00:36:49.000 And that couldn't have been Oswald?
00:36:51.000 No, no, it couldn't have.
00:36:53.000 It would have had to have come from, from actually the right front.
00:36:58.000 And you're certain about that?
00:37:01.000 I'm, yeah, I saw the wound.
00:37:04.000 Uh, Dr. Humes and Dr. Fink found the wound.
00:37:08.000 You examined this whole area of the back?
00:37:11.000 Yes, sir.
00:37:12.000 Were there any other wounds except one at the base of the neck and one up in the skull?
00:37:17.000 No, sir, there were not.
00:37:18.000 About the, the head wound.
00:37:20.000 Sir.
00:37:21.000 There was only one?
00:37:23.000 There was only one entrance wound in the head, yes, sir.
00:37:26.000 Now, can you be absolutely certain that the wound you described as the entry wound was
00:37:31.000 in fact that?
00:37:32.000 Yes, indeed we can.
00:37:33.000 So let me, let me ask you this.
00:37:35.000 When you see everybody on TV, every news, everybody from TV saying it's from back, at
00:37:42.000 that moment when this happened, you're there in the room, every conversation you go to dinner,
00:37:47.000 lunch, friends, people, co-workers, how are you holding yourself back from saying they're
00:37:53.000 lying?
00:37:54.000 That's not the case.
00:37:55.000 I guess it goes back to the same thing, credibility.
00:37:58.000 You didn't think they would believe you if you said anything?
00:38:00.000 Right.
00:38:01.000 I really don't want to be critical, but there are some really fine researchers out there.
00:38:09.000 They, uh, they've done a fantastic job and have dedicated most of their life to them.
00:38:17.000 They don't readily accept the possibility that, that they could be incorrect.
00:38:24.000 Everything that is new or contradictory to their theories, so forth, is automatically rejected.
00:38:38.000 I would be, I, you know, I would be more than willing to participate in a objective legal inquiry
00:38:48.000 where, where you would be able to, you know, someone who's objective, not, and I'm not talking
00:38:55.000 about a group of physicians to, to review the evidence and that type of situation.
00:39:01.000 I'm talking about a true law enforcement objective investigation into a murder.
00:39:08.000 Why do you think it hasn't been done yet, though?
00:39:11.000 Well, I'm not sure that it can be done.
00:39:14.000 Why do you say that?
00:39:15.000 I think the assassination of Oswald eliminated that possibility.
00:39:20.000 And I think it was, they wanted to keep, and this is all my opinion.
00:39:26.000 Okay.
00:39:27.000 I'm not, I have no inside information or anything.
00:39:30.000 I think they wanted, they wanted to keep it within the realm of control of the government.
00:39:37.000 You know how sometimes when me and my wife go and let's just say a name comes up, that's
00:39:43.000 her father's name and her father passed by, say, are you thinking about your dad?
00:39:48.000 Or you know how you go some places.
00:39:50.000 And for me, something comes up about Iran and Khomeini and the Shah.
00:39:54.000 She asks, hey, are you okay?
00:39:56.000 I'm sure JFK came up many times.
00:39:58.000 Was there ever like, babe, what do you think about this?
00:40:01.000 Jim, you okay?
00:40:02.000 Was there ever those moments or she just respected and says, look, if you don't want me to go there,
00:40:06.000 I'm not going to go there.
00:40:07.000 Well, actually, since I started writing the book, she's become more involved.
00:40:13.000 It's important to know you've been, you guys been married for 55 years and three months.
00:40:17.000 You got married August of 63, which was three years before the assassination.
00:40:22.000 So you're celebrating.
00:40:23.000 See, it was actually the August before the assassination.
00:40:26.000 The August before the assassination.
00:40:28.000 Yeah, that's what I was referencing.
00:40:29.000 So 55 years you've been married?
00:40:30.000 Mm-hmm.
00:40:31.000 55 years you've been married.
00:40:32.000 This is maybe going a little bit deeper myself, and I'm just curious to know what you think about it.
00:40:40.000 What is your opinion on Humes yourself?
00:40:43.000 Do you have an opinion on Humes?
00:40:45.000 I think Humes and Boswell and Fink, they were good people.
00:40:50.000 But one of the things that everybody seems to negate is the fact is that they were military.
00:40:59.000 They were in the Navy.
00:41:01.000 They were all career officers.
00:41:03.000 They were getting close to their retirement.
00:41:06.000 My feeling is that they were given a scenario, and they were directed to actually support that through the autopsy findings.
00:41:15.000 Now, I don't think that's that well with Dr. Humes.
00:41:21.000 He really wasn't that kind of an individual, but he had no alternative.
00:41:26.000 And that's one of the reasons I say that the autopsy, a lot of the autopsy report, is a spin on what we actually saw.
00:41:35.000 The measurement of the wounds, 13 centimeters, that's almost five inches.
00:41:42.000 That's almost an inch and a half over what I actually saw.
00:41:48.000 Now, as a caveat to that, I would like to say, you know, I didn't measure the wound, but he did.
00:41:57.000 But what I think he used, and then Dr. Boswell actually said in his notes that it was 19 centimeters.
00:42:06.000 And I think what they did was that the measurement was taken after the scalp was refracted.
00:42:13.000 Some of the bone had separated from the scalp and fallen in.
00:42:16.000 So it had increased the size of the wound that was actually missing, where it seemed to be bone was missing.
00:42:25.000 Were they being ordered?
00:42:26.000 Oh, yes. I'm sure.
00:42:27.000 And from all the way from the top?
00:42:29.000 Oh, I'm sure.
00:42:30.000 So then, what's your opinion on Lyndon Johnson?
00:42:37.000 Not very well.
00:42:38.000 I figured.
00:42:39.000 That was the entire question I wanted to ask you today.
00:42:42.000 I was in San Antonio, and I lived in San Antonio.
00:42:47.000 And Lyndon Johnson in San Antonio, or in Texas, was, I guess you could say, a good old boy.
00:42:56.000 Politically, he was supported.
00:42:58.000 He's not someone that you won't invite to dinner.
00:43:01.000 You know, it's amazing.
00:43:02.000 I'm reading a book right now.
00:43:03.000 I just finished.
00:43:04.000 A good friend of mine wrote, Robert Greene.
00:43:05.000 And he talks about Lyndon Johnson heavily.
00:43:08.000 Oh, yeah.
00:43:09.000 And he talks about how ambitious he was to the point where he was willing to do anything at all cost to make it to the next level in his career.
00:43:19.000 And how coming up for him, he would go against Hubert Humphrey, you know, the Triple H, Hubert Humphrey.
00:43:25.000 And then he had this one mentor of his, Russell, that kind of calmed him down.
00:43:29.000 And he tried to keep his motivation in.
00:43:31.000 And when you read about him, there's a little bit of animosity he has towards JFK and the amount of love he got.
00:43:36.000 A lot of animosity.
00:43:37.000 A lot of animosity because he was never a great orator.
00:43:40.000 And he was never loved like JFK was loved.
00:43:43.000 He was way more ambitious.
00:43:45.000 It was way more important for him to become a president than JFK.
00:43:48.000 Because in JFK's family, his older brother was supposed to be President Joseph.
00:43:52.000 And you know this because if you read history, the older brother was in war.
00:43:55.000 He died as a pilot and his father was depressed for several years.
00:43:59.000 And so when you read this, the part as I get deeper into this, a lot of things make sense.
00:44:04.000 You know, when you tie it up, a lot of things make sense.
00:44:07.000 Do you think a part of the investigation that is to be done,
00:44:12.000 do you think there needs to be him involved in it as well?
00:44:15.000 Or no, you're thinking more specifically from researchers.
00:44:19.000 Because I think a part of this is also to see two things.
00:44:22.000 One, you know the six soldiers that saw the casket coming in early, right?
00:44:27.000 There was a couple E-4s, a couple E-5s, and an E-6 that later on became a lieutenant.
00:44:32.000 So either they're lying, which why would they? They're not being monetized.
00:44:36.000 Why would they say that they didn't see it?
00:44:38.000 And then the other side is, you know, why wouldn't they tell the truth?
00:44:43.000 And then the opposite side is what is the motive behind wanting to take the front bullet wounds out?
00:44:49.000 What would be the motive?
00:44:50.000 So would you say Lyndon Johnson would need to be a little bit investigated to see there was a motivation there as well?
00:44:55.000 I would say, I guess I can answer that with a question.
00:45:00.000 Who were the two people in the government at the time that benefited the most?
00:45:11.000 Him and Hoover.
00:45:14.000 That's right.
00:45:15.000 Is that the right answer?
00:45:16.000 Mm-hmm.
00:45:17.000 Yeah.
00:45:18.000 I just got the chills out of my body.
00:45:20.000 Yeah.
00:45:21.000 It goes deeper than that, by the way, because you have to go like five steps prior to him and Hoover.
00:45:27.000 On why Hoover.
00:45:28.000 So the story goes back of Kennedy's running.
00:45:32.000 I'm going to go a whole different angle here.
00:45:34.000 And I'm curious to know what you're going to say here.
00:45:37.000 Kennedy's running and Kennedy's having a hard time with Illinois.
00:45:41.000 And there's a mayor, Cook County, who helps with the 7,000 to 8,000 people.
00:45:48.000 This is some conspiracy who were dead, but he helps.
00:45:51.000 And that mayor who won, won because a Chicago mob boss apparently helped him out.
00:45:57.000 And the mayor's son, who became a late mayor later on, they asked him, was a mob ever involved in helping you?
00:46:04.000 So then you go to Chicago, right?
00:46:06.000 In Chicago, you go to the mob that's trying to get JFK to become president.
00:46:11.000 JFK ended up winning.
00:46:12.000 He didn't need Illinois, but he ended up winning Illinois as well.
00:46:15.000 He won single-handedly over Nixon.
00:46:17.000 Okay?
00:46:18.000 So then that happens.
00:46:20.000 And when that happened, the mob always had Hoover not say that there is the mob.
00:46:27.000 There's no such thing as the mob.
00:46:28.000 And Hoover never said it.
00:46:29.000 JFK Hoover never said it.
00:46:30.000 But because the mob had some insider information on Hoover that Hoover didn't want to become public.
00:46:34.000 And I think you may know what some of those things may be.
00:46:37.000 At that time, it was a big deal.
00:46:39.000 And so when this whole thing is taking place, Lyndon's extremely ambitious on what he wants to be.
00:46:46.000 Fastest way to become a, you know, they say the fastest way to become a millionaire is to marry one.
00:46:50.000 And the fastest way to become a president is to be a vice president who eliminates a president.
00:46:56.000 Now, again, this is all stuff that I read and I research.
00:46:59.000 And then you find out why he waited by the plane, Air Force One.
00:47:04.000 You know, why years later when Jackie did a recording that the tapes was there and they found and they looked at Jackie Kennedy's recording.
00:47:12.000 Why did she say Lyndon was a very dangerous man?
00:47:16.000 She always feared him because she always felt like he wanted to do something to John.
00:47:21.000 And so when you put all these pieces of puzzle together and why when the commission came out, is it the Warren Commission when it came out?
00:47:30.000 Why would he say 75 year seal?
00:47:33.000 Why not 30 years?
00:47:34.000 Because that's the typical number.
00:47:35.000 Why would we do 75 year?
00:47:37.000 Well, the enlisted would be dead. 0.98
00:47:38.000 So no one would be able to investigate these guys.
00:47:41.000 All these things are a little bit too much for someone to say there's something here we're dealing with.
00:47:46.000 And, you know, even after the House Select Committee, my deposition and Paul's deposition was sealed again for another 50 years.
00:47:57.000 And it was only released because of the record review board.
00:48:05.000 There's so much involved in this.
00:48:07.000 And one of the things that I've tried not to do is to speculate.
00:48:14.000 Now, at the end of the book, I...
00:48:16.000 A little bit.
00:48:18.000 I do.
00:48:19.000 Yeah.
00:48:20.000 And, you know, I've had people say, well, you know, and I guess I have to defend...
00:48:31.000 I guess I have to defend the doctors.
00:48:33.000 If you were looking at a retirement and you had a family, you'd spent all your life, you know, in one organization, one company or something of that nature.
00:48:47.000 And something came and threatened your retirement and your pension and even possibility of jail time.
00:48:59.000 And you were told, well, you really don't have to lie about it, but you have to adjust it, what you know, to fit this...
00:49:09.000 narrative.
00:49:10.000 Yeah.
00:49:11.000 Were you told that?
00:49:12.000 I wasn't.
00:49:13.000 I was just...
00:49:14.000 I mean, I was too low on the totem pole.
00:49:17.000 I was just...
00:49:18.000 But Humes, Boswell, and they may have been because they were close to retirement.
00:49:21.000 I'm sure they were.
00:49:22.000 So they had to make the right decisions for their families because the 25, 30 years is on the line.
00:49:27.000 Sure.
00:49:28.000 Makes sense.
00:49:29.000 I mean, they were all...
00:49:30.000 I think they were 30-year people.
00:49:31.000 And 30-year people, you know what happens with them.
00:49:33.000 You know what I wouldn't mind doing?
00:49:35.000 Why don't you and I take a break and why don't we go to the Dealey Plaza and kind of see that,
00:49:40.000 and then come back and finish the interview if you don't mind?
00:49:42.000 Yeah, sure.
00:49:43.000 Because based on what we're talking about here, I'd like to see what you think the other angle would be.
00:49:48.000 If it was shot, where would it be coming from?
00:49:50.000 If you don't mind taking a break and going to the Dealey Plaza.
00:49:52.000 So that's the X right there.
00:50:15.000 So Jim, if that's the X and the shot from Oswald came from there and you're looking at the brain,
00:50:22.000 we would have to assume the other shot that you saw in the front would come from where?
00:50:26.000 If we're standing there, probably right there.
00:50:30.000 Somewhere around there.
00:50:31.000 Because actually the shot was in the temple, exited here.
00:50:35.000 Temple, hit the temple.
00:50:36.000 Got it.
00:50:37.000 Right a little bit above and in front of the ear, right in the hairline.
00:50:41.000 That was the first wound.
00:50:43.000 And then it exited back here.
00:50:45.000 And that's why he kind of shook back and he went back?
00:50:48.000 Yeah.
00:50:49.000 And see, the thing about it is that the wound that they mentioned in the autopsy and so forth,
00:50:54.000 in the back of the head is an injury wound.
00:50:56.000 I never saw that.
00:50:57.000 You never saw that?
00:50:58.000 No.
00:50:59.000 I should have seen it because I handled the body for the x-rays.
00:51:03.000 I actually placed the film cassettes for the customer.
00:51:10.000 What does this do for your own level of curiosity being here?
00:51:13.000 Does it do anything for you?
00:51:15.000 Not really.
00:51:16.000 I mean, I always wanted to come down and see it.
00:51:21.000 It's a lot smaller than I thought.
00:51:23.000 I see it as well.
00:51:24.000 Yeah, that's right.
00:51:25.000 It's a place now.
00:51:26.000 People all over the world come here to see this x.
00:51:28.000 There's a throat wound probably would have come from right...
00:51:31.000 Over the bridge?
00:51:33.000 Probably right off of the railroad up there.
00:51:36.000 Or it could have come from an individual.
00:51:39.000 See where those people are standing?
00:51:40.000 This group or the ones in the back?
00:51:42.000 The group right there.
00:51:43.000 Yes.
00:51:44.000 To the left.
00:51:45.000 Where the guy is with the camera.
00:51:46.000 It could have come from there.
00:51:48.000 In one of the photographs in the book, the neck wound, you can see in the right side of the neck wound,
00:51:53.000 where there's a ragged area to the top.
00:51:57.000 If you look closely, you can also see that there is a ridge or tunnel under the skin that goes upward.
00:52:04.000 So what was that?
00:52:06.000 Are you saying that's another bullet?
00:52:08.000 I think that's probably the one that Dr. Perry described.
00:52:12.000 I think it was removed.
00:52:13.000 Because, see, the one in the back never penetrated the pleural cavity.
00:52:17.000 And Humes could actually probe it with his little finger.
00:52:21.000 But there was no wound, there was no bullet or...
00:52:24.000 You said he went in, what, an inch, an inch and a half with his finger?
00:52:27.000 Uh, little finger.
00:52:29.000 With his middle, with his pinky?
00:52:30.000 With his little finger.
00:52:31.000 Yeah, but Humes had huge hands.
00:52:33.000 But he did.
00:52:34.000 Actually, it never penetrated the chest cavity or the pleural cavity.
00:52:38.000 Apparently, it did make a bruise on the lung.
00:52:40.000 Because on the backside of the middle lobe of the right lung, just above the middle lobe,
00:52:47.000 on the first lobe, there was kind of a reddish spot there that we saw.
00:52:52.000 They moved it up to the top of the lung.
00:52:55.000 They also moved the wound in the back from the area where it was to the neck wound.
00:53:01.000 And all of that was to support the single bullet theory.
00:53:04.000 So, let me ask you.
00:53:05.000 Can you put a number to how many bullets you think there was shot or no?
00:53:10.000 Just what you saw with the brain.
00:53:11.000 Oh, I don't know.
00:53:12.000 You wouldn't be able to know that.
00:53:13.000 I can tell you.
00:53:14.000 When I left the morgue that night, I saw at least two wounds that I knew were wounds.
00:53:19.000 I wasn't aware of the neck wound because we had been told it was an emergency trach and to leave it alone.
00:53:26.000 Got it.
00:53:27.000 And those were the only two wounds I saw.
00:53:31.000 I never saw the supposedly entry wound in the back of the head.
00:53:35.000 And in reality, if there had been an entry wound there, where they located it, it would have been within the big wound in the back of the head where all this stuff was missing.
00:53:44.000 It would have had to have been either on the margin of it or whatever.
00:53:47.000 And I didn't see that.
00:53:49.000 And then the pictures that they show, honestly, I believe that was government misinformation.
00:53:55.000 It's inconceivable to me that Fox would have had possession of those.
00:54:01.000 They've been so tight on everything else.
00:54:03.000 Everything's been just totally locked away in.
00:54:07.000 All of the real evidence that was given to Robert Kennedy, and apparently he disposed the most of it.
00:54:13.000 There's just too many questions.
00:54:14.000 Well, so you're saying there's nothing really can happen for there to be an open investigation now, right?
00:54:19.000 I don't think that the government will allow it because there's so much stuff that they still have sequestered that they won't release.
00:54:28.000 And we were hoping Trump wouldn't be involved in all of this to the point that he would release it.
00:54:33.000 And he did.
00:54:34.000 He released a lot of it.
00:54:36.000 But the thing about it is it wasn't significant stuff.
00:54:39.000 It wasn't significant stuff?
00:54:41.000 It had nothing to do really with the autopsy.
00:54:45.000 What's the biggest worry with it?
00:54:47.000 Is the worry and the concern that if it comes out that it was an inside job, it's going to show the rest of the world a level of instability,
00:54:54.000 you know, a level of unstable government internally?
00:54:57.000 I don't think that that's the case.
00:54:59.000 You know, when the founding fathers established the country, they didn't establish a House of Lords.
00:55:06.000 Now we have a House of Lords, which is Congress.
00:55:10.000 So I think it's a CYI.
00:55:14.000 CYA, you mean? 0.89
00:55:16.000 Yeah.
00:55:17.000 Yeah.
00:55:18.000 I believe that.
00:55:19.000 Yeah, I believe it too.
00:55:20.000 And I investigated an attorney general or an assistant attorney general and they subpoenaed him and he just ignores it.
00:55:27.000 How is that possible without repercussions?
00:55:29.000 Of course, Johnson said it was because the people couldn't handle the right information or what really happened.
00:55:36.000 I think it goes further than that.
00:55:38.000 But that's, again, too, that's my, you know, that's my take on it and that's speculation on my part.
00:55:44.000 And what you notice with him, he was loved around the world.
00:55:47.000 You know, a lot of countries around the world started museums on behalf of his name because of the level of admiration they had for him.
00:55:53.000 So I think that's probably why there's such a high level of wanting to know exactly what happened.
00:55:58.000 What was the motivation behind it?
00:55:59.000 Well, I think that he was one of the first people in a long series of presidents that actually was beginning to look at the people as people.
00:56:09.000 Power.
00:56:10.000 Who's in charge?
00:56:11.000 Whether it's Republican, Democrat.
00:56:13.000 Yep.
00:56:14.000 Or me or you.
00:56:15.000 Yep.
00:56:16.000 And that's all politics in this country has become.
00:56:19.000 It's his power.
00:56:20.000 They buy him.
00:56:21.000 It's easy to buy him nowadays.
00:56:23.000 It's a money game.
00:56:24.000 And you wonder.
00:56:25.000 You go and see who can be bought and who can't be bought.
00:56:27.000 And, you know, the voters sitting there saying, I like this guy, but it's not as much as you liking the voter.
00:56:32.000 There's too much of that.
00:56:33.000 Like you said, corporations are coming in and are able to buy votes.
00:56:36.000 And whether they want to do something that has to do with regulation or making it difficult for their competitors to do something, they're not looking at the political side.
00:56:43.000 They're looking at more regulation that's going to heart competition.
00:56:46.000 Let me ask you, did you ever, did you spend a lot of time studying Oswald or not really?
00:56:50.000 His background, you know, him wanting to be a Russian citizen and all that stuff or no?
00:56:54.000 I really don't know.
00:56:55.000 You know, people ask you, do I think he killed Kennedy?
00:57:00.000 Well, that's actually not a finding question.
00:57:03.000 Because if he shot at Kennedy and then shot from behind Kennedy, then what he did, he was apparently responsible for the backroom, which was not a fatal one.
00:57:12.000 It would not have been a fatal one.
00:57:14.000 You're certain of that, that it wouldn't have been fatal?
00:57:16.000 No, no.
00:57:17.000 And you saw that back wound?
00:57:18.000 Yes.
00:57:19.000 What would have been worst case with that?
00:57:20.000 They would have done surgery and he would have recovered?
00:57:22.000 Oh, no.
00:57:23.000 They probably would have just removed the bullet and closed it.
00:57:28.000 I mean, it wasn't destructive in the sense that it hit a vital organ or it hit, even broke a rib.
00:57:35.000 The whole information, the whole report that are out there, the autopsy report and so forth, they don't make sense from a medical standpoint, from an anatomical standpoint.
00:57:47.000 They just don't make sense.
00:57:48.000 It's almost like they've been manipulated or spun.
00:57:52.000 The information is to lead someone to a conclusion that's not the truth.
00:57:58.000 Is there anybody out there that is coming from the right place, morals, values, character, integrity, that is extremely motivated to want to investigate this and want to do something about it?
00:58:11.000 Is there someone you know that's out there wanting to get deeper into this topic or no?
00:58:14.000 No.
00:58:15.000 If this is ever going to have a legal solution and so forth, it's going to have to come through the government and because they're the only one who can release the evidence.
00:58:26.000 What evidence is still there?
00:58:28.000 And see, we still don't know.
00:58:29.000 You know, I'm not allowed to see photographs that I was there.
00:58:32.000 That's amazing.
00:58:33.000 That amazes me.
00:58:34.000 I'm not allowed to see the x-rays that I took part in.
00:58:37.000 How is that even possible?
00:58:38.000 That amazes me.
00:58:39.000 Are any of those guys, the enlisted guys, even Dennis or O'Connor, are any of them still in contact with you?
00:58:45.000 Are they still around?
00:58:46.000 I can't know a lot.
00:58:47.000 Humes, Boswell, are any of them still around?
00:58:50.000 Nope.
00:58:51.000 And that's what Lyndon wanted because he knew once everybody was gone, there's nothing that's going to come back.
00:58:55.000 That's right.
00:58:56.000 Wow.
00:58:57.000 That's right.
00:58:58.000 And what year was the 50 years put on you?
00:59:00.000 Oh, it was 75.
00:59:01.000 75, so 2025.
00:59:03.000 That's amazing.
00:59:04.000 And by the way, they measured it.
00:59:06.000 One of the things about Oswald is how long the distance was.
00:59:10.000 They said they brought 12 marksmen to test shooting it while a target is moving.
00:59:17.000 12 out of 12, they all hit the target.
00:59:19.000 So it said it's not a target that really needs somebody to be a sniper to be able to hit it.
00:59:24.000 It wasn't that difficult of a target to hit.
00:59:26.000 But Oswald himself is an interesting character.
00:59:29.000 And Ruby died as well two years later.
00:59:31.000 So he's not even around for somebody to be investigating and say,
00:59:33.000 what are you connected to as a local nightclub owner or restaurant owner?
00:59:36.000 Well, you know, my opinion, if Oswald had lived, they would have had to have had a legal trial.
00:59:42.000 If the administration did reach out to you to want to go deeper on this, would there be an interest on your end or no?
00:59:48.000 Sure.
00:59:49.000 But I only have the information that I have.
00:59:51.000 There's always an interest with this.
00:59:52.000 So maybe if the right person sees this message, they're able to reach out and billions of people, this is not millions, billions of people would like to know what happened here.
00:59:59.000 There's too many unknowns that are not fully answered yet.
01:00:02.000 And there's too many signs from credible sources that makes you question things.
01:00:06.000 Well, I agree.
01:00:07.000 Also, I'd like to know who, what, where and why.
01:00:11.000 I don't think in my lifetime I'll ever know, but it would be, you know, it would be something I really would like.
01:00:16.000 Well, you never know.
01:00:17.000 You never know what happens.
01:00:18.000 The part about you is from me on why I wanted to do this because Bill contacted me and says,
01:00:24.000 Pat, you know, let's try to see if we can do something with you and Jim.
01:00:27.000 I'm in the business of reading people because that's what I do for a living.
01:00:30.000 I run a business.
01:00:31.000 I'm supposed to see who I'm doing business with and what I do for a living.
01:00:34.000 There's nothing about you with a motive to monetize and use this as a platform to make a multimillion dollar contract, book, any of that.
01:00:44.000 You come across as somebody that you're just trying to get to the bottom of it and investigate it because there's some unknowns.
01:00:49.000 And 50 plus years later, you've agreed to kind of talk about it a little bit more than before.
01:00:53.000 And so, I don't know, I think there's something there.
01:00:56.000 The purpose of the book is to get the information out there.
01:00:59.000 You know, I guess it has to do with my own mortality.
01:01:01.000 It's just absolutely unconscionable that what's being taught in schools now is not true, but it's accepted as part of history.
01:01:11.000 Someone once said that history is written by the winners and we definitely lost in this.
01:01:16.000 You hear the other one, whoever controls the present controls the past.
01:01:19.000 Some say whoever controls the present controls the future, right?
01:01:21.000 That's true.
01:01:22.000 It says a lot.
01:01:23.000 Well, this was great to kind of see the perspective of something was to happen.
01:01:26.000 Which angle would it come from?
01:01:28.000 Being able to stand out there, it would be impossible, but I can tell you the angle from the wound in the back, it actually went down at about 30, 45 degree angles.
01:01:43.000 Oh, like this?
01:01:44.000 Yeah.
01:01:45.000 From the front?
01:01:46.000 No, from the back.
01:01:47.000 Was he like this when he got shot or was he straight?
01:01:49.000 Because he was going like this and then he got shot.
01:01:52.000 I think he got shot first in the throat.
01:01:55.000 And that's what his hands came up for.
01:01:57.000 What he did was his hand came up, he went down like this and then he went back like this.
01:02:03.000 And this is the shot.
01:02:05.000 And you can see the tissue and stuff out here.
01:02:09.000 And people say, oh, well, half his brain was blown out.
01:02:13.000 They don't understand that a brain is a very delicate type thing.
01:02:17.000 Once it's protected by the meninges and the skull, there would have been a lot of liquidification.
01:02:25.000 A lot of liquid that would cause the pressure of the bullet.
01:02:31.000 As the bullet entered, it created pressure within the skull cavity.
01:02:35.000 And it fractured all of his side.
01:02:38.000 And then where it exited, it blew the bone out.
01:02:43.000 But as it passed through, it created pressure in the brain.
01:02:48.000 You've seen demonstrations of people shooting watermelons?
01:02:52.000 Yes, yes.
01:02:53.000 I mean, we just shot, it's interesting, we were at a place called Drive Tanks two weeks ago.
01:02:59.000 And I was on a tank, we were shooting stuff up.
01:03:02.000 And I was shooting at watermelons and a few pumpkins.
01:03:07.000 And I shot the pumpkin and the front is just a hole, but the back is a blast, right?
01:03:12.000 And the gentleman comes up and he says, the best thing is, this is the front, this is the back.
01:03:16.000 This is the front, this is the back.
01:03:17.000 He says, if you want to know exactly what this means, it's what happened with JFK.
01:03:21.000 It's the same exact analogy you use.
01:03:22.000 I believe it.
01:03:23.000 So, look, if you're somebody who follows history, I'm sure you're fascinated by what we just saw here at the Dealey Plaza.
01:03:31.000 I am myself as somebody who was in the military.
01:03:34.000 But, you know, what I'd like to do, if you don't mind, Jim, is obviously we're at the end here.
01:03:39.000 And the book that you wrote with William Law at the cold shoulder of history.
01:03:43.000 Why don't you take a minute and tell us a little bit about what I'm going to get as a reader if I read this book.
01:03:48.000 I think you'll get a different perspective on the whole JFK assassination.
01:03:53.000 These are my memories of what I actually participated in concerning the brain.
01:03:58.000 Dr. Boswell and I did the body proper.
01:04:04.000 And what I observed from Dr. Humes and Dr. Fink's examination of the head, we actually took three sets of x-rays.
01:04:13.000 I actually helped Gerald Custer, who was the x-ray tech, place the cassettes and move the body and so forth.
01:04:20.000 For the first set of x-rays, he took them and when he came back, he brought an assistant with him.
01:04:27.000 I think it'll give the reader some thought, but it also is going to require the reader to make some judgments on his own.
01:04:37.000 It's going to make you go and say, really? Let me go look it up.
01:04:41.000 No way. Let me go Google it, which I think it's great, by the way. I actually think that's a great thing.
01:04:45.000 Yeah, that's the purpose.
01:04:47.000 And I think that book does that. If you're interested in that topic, you, your parents, your kids, anybody, I'd go get the book, gift it for somebody.
01:04:55.000 And if you haven't watched the interview I did with Clint Hill, it was an interview done about two years ago or so, Clint Hill.
01:05:02.000 I suggest you go watch that as well. With that being said, Jim, thank you so much for coming out.
01:05:06.000 Truly, thank you for your time and thank you for your courage, for wanting to open up and tell the story and as well as your service.
01:05:11.000 Thanks, everybody, for listening. And by the way, if you haven't already subscribed to Valuetainment on iTunes,
01:05:16.000 please do so. Give us a five star. Write a review if you haven't already.
01:05:20.000 And if you have any questions for me that you may have, you can always find me on Snapchat, Instagram, Facebook or YouTube.
01:05:26.000 Just search my name, Patrick David.
01:05:28.000 And I actually do respond back when you snap me or send me a message on Instagram.
01:05:33.000 With that being said, have a great day today. Take care, everybody. Bye-bye.
01:05:36.000 See you, everybody. Bye, everyone.
01:05:38.000 Bye-bye.
01:05:40.000 Bye-bye.
01:05:42.000 Bye-bye.
01:05:46.000 S-Tool Stats.
01:05:48.000 Bye-bye.
01:05:50.000 Bye-bye.