Valuetainment - Episode 232： Laws of Human Nature Dissected by Robert Greene

00:00:00.840 30 seconds. One time for the underdog. Ignition sequence start. Let me see you put them up. Reach the sky, touch the stars up above. Cause it's one time for the underdog. One time for the underdog.

00:00:17.320 I'm Patrick Bedevi, your host of ITM. And in today's podcast, we're going to be talking to Robert Green, the author of 48 Laws of Power. Except today we're talking about his recent book that just came out, Laws of Human Nature.

00:00:27.800 Robert, thank you so much for joining us here today. It's good to have you back. It's good to have you back. So, Laws of Human Nature. You know, I read your book and one of the things I like about the way you started the book is the fact that, you know, we all think when we read a book like yours, as you're going through it, you're reading and you're saying, yeah, that other person's like this. Oh no, this other person's like that. He's talking about her. He's talking about him. He's talking about them.

00:00:55.600 These evil people out there. And then all of a sudden, bam, you hit me in the face and you say, I'm talking about you.

00:01:02.860 So you're sitting there saying, oh my gosh, like you, we think we are so much more polished, superior and smarter and intelligent than we really are. And then you challenge that perspective and you completely give a spin to it.

00:01:16.080 So what inspired you to want to write a book, The Laws of Human Nature?

00:01:19.360 Well, you know, each of my books kind of comes at a historical moment.

00:01:23.340 So the 48 Laws of Power was at a moment where I think people were being really hypocritical about power.

00:01:30.880 There were a lot of self-help books out there that were so soft and gentle, like everything is sort of Pollyannish about power.

00:01:39.860 And you just need to be positive and have an open attitude and be nice to people and you'll get ahead.

00:01:45.060 And it really pissed me off because my experiences in Hollywood and elsewhere and in all the different jobs I've had is that's not what the world is like.

00:01:55.600 So I felt angry. And when I'm angry, I write a book.

00:02:00.020 And so Mastery, I was really angry because I thought people don't know how to make things anymore.

00:02:05.420 They're so techno-obsessed.

00:02:08.580 They're so into their algorithms.

00:02:10.520 They're so, think that they can get anything easily or quickly.

00:02:15.240 And we're going to find ourselves in a world where bridges are going to fall apart.

00:02:19.240 People don't know how to design things or make things or write a book anymore.

00:02:23.640 And I was really worried about it.

00:02:25.220 So I wrote, I was angry.

00:02:26.420 So I wrote Mastery.

00:02:27.840 So The Laws of Human Nature, I think we've lost a sense of psychology, of what really motivates people.

00:02:34.360 I think people, we're living in times where people have never been more self-obsessed,

00:02:39.220 more self-absorbed for whatever reasons.

00:02:42.620 Social media, maybe a little bit?

00:02:43.840 Social media plays a huge role in that.

00:02:45.920 And so people are kind of locked into their own little world.

00:02:49.220 You may not realize this, but I think that the source of most of the pain that people feel in their life,

00:02:56.080 the source of most of their failures in life, why they hit a wall, why they can't get any further in life,

00:03:01.380 is because they don't understand people.

00:03:04.120 They don't understand what motivates.

00:03:06.080 They can't get inside the mind of the other person.

00:03:08.380 They're always thinking of themselves.

00:03:10.960 And because of that, they don't have the ability to persuade or influence people to get them to move in the direction they want.

00:03:18.180 Their relationships with people are very thin and brittle.

00:03:20.980 There's no real deep empathic connection.

00:03:23.720 Specifically to today's times is what you're saying.

00:03:26.140 Yes.

00:03:26.480 Got it.

00:03:26.800 It's getting worse and worse out there.

00:03:28.700 But also a lack of self-awareness.

00:03:31.660 As you were pointing out in the beginning, everyone thinks it's the other person that's narcissistic or aggressive or is envious or has a dark side or is repressed or is short side.

00:03:43.740 Not me.

00:03:44.420 Not me.

00:03:44.560 No.

00:03:45.520 So a lack of self-awareness and the lack of what really motivates people.

00:03:51.580 And I encounter it all the time.

00:03:53.940 I do a lot of consulting with very high-powered people in business, in politics.

00:03:59.200 All over the world.

00:04:00.700 You would go to the Middle East for a month because somebody was hiring you to help them out with decisions they were making.

00:04:07.000 Yeah.

00:04:07.220 And I was always shocked at how they could be so smart about some things but be absolutely ignorant about people.

00:04:15.940 Like they hired somebody who ended up being the partner who stole the company.

00:04:21.000 As if a person like that doesn't leave traces behind them in their past that they were going to do that.

00:04:28.060 You know, on and on and on.

00:04:29.240 I could give you a hundred different stories of the same thing.

00:04:32.080 So I'm always shocked at how people don't have a sense of the psychology of the people they're dealing with.

00:04:38.900 They don't know how to judge people's character.

00:04:41.580 They're basing their opinions of people on their appearance, whether someone's charming or good-looking or articulate.

00:04:49.000 And they're not looking behind the surface, behind the mask.

00:04:53.120 So that anger kind of fueled this book and was sort of one of the main reasons I wrote it.

00:04:58.940 I'm hoping you get angry every three years.

00:05:00.680 That's what I'm hoping.

00:05:01.640 So hopefully three years from when you get angry, you're going to keep writing books for the next 30 years.

00:05:06.060 But, you know, it's interesting you say that.

00:05:07.860 I read a book one time by a British diplomat called Leaderless Revolution.

00:05:11.800 And he said some of the biggest revolutions nowadays are starting without a leader because it's becoming a completely different era we're living in.

00:05:18.040 And revolutions are driven by three different things.

00:05:20.020 Something that bothers you, something you love, something that you hate and you're angry about.

00:05:24.360 And typically the biggest ones are obviously number three, hate and anger, because you want to do something about it.

00:05:28.960 Let me get into a few pages I've marked off.

00:05:31.540 Okay.

00:05:31.740 And I don't know how many of them we'll get into with this interview, but we'll try to get into some of them.

00:05:34.880 So you say here on page 100, this is the section where you're talking about see through people's masks, right?

00:05:41.980 And you say, realize the following.

00:05:44.240 The word personality comes from the Latin persona, which means mask, which means we're all wearing a mask, right?

00:05:51.960 In the public, we all wear masks, and this has a positive function.

00:05:57.140 If we displayed exactly who we are and spoke our minds truthfully, we would offend almost everyone and reveal qualities that are best concealed.

00:06:06.340 So does this mean that we're all living a life of lies or does it mean that some of us actually, those who are willing to surround yourself with people who are willing to tell you the truth and your sensitivity doesn't get into it, to find your blind spot, you're able to advance.

00:06:26.020 What does it mean to you when you write something like this?

00:06:28.420 Well, I'm basically challenging this idea, this notion that people have that acting in life, in being social, and in wearing that mask is a bad thing, as if we need to be more authentic and be just who we are.

00:06:44.200 And I think that's completely bogus.

00:06:46.000 I think humans are actors.

00:06:48.760 From the age of two years old, three years old, we learned how to manipulate our parents by crying when we needed to cry, being charming, saying certain things.

00:06:58.940 We learn how to act.

00:07:00.980 And when we grow up, I have, earlier in that chapter, I make the point, if you met a person that said exactly what he felt every time, you know, you would hate that person.

00:07:12.380 He would never have any friends.

00:07:14.460 So, let's be honest about this.

00:07:18.220 We're all acting.

00:07:19.600 When we're in the office, we're not telling our boss exactly what we think about his stupid ideas, or what he's wearing, or his clothes, or et cetera.

00:07:28.760 We say what we think is appropriate for that situation.

00:07:32.460 We are courtiers.

00:07:34.180 And I want to bring some honesty into that and say, stop fighting that need to be an actor.

00:07:40.260 In fact, what you want to be is you want to be a better actor.

00:07:42.860 You want to be good at this.

00:07:45.580 Well, so you are not saying, be truthful.

00:07:49.100 You're saying, learn to act better.

00:07:51.340 Because there's some contradictions to that within the book as well, though, right?

00:07:54.560 Yeah.

00:07:54.840 Well, it depends on the situation in which you're being truthful.

00:07:58.020 You need to be truthful about yourself.

00:08:00.500 You need to be honest about who you are.

00:08:02.240 You need to be honest that you have a dark side, that you have aggressive impulses, that you can feel envious.

00:08:07.560 So you need to be truthful about yourself.

00:08:09.460 But being a social animal, which is what we are, means that you have to mold what you say and how you act to the situation that you're in.

00:08:21.380 You can't just simply blurt out what you feel.

00:08:24.680 That's being an animal.

00:08:26.140 That's not being a human being.

00:08:27.900 A human being controls his emotions, has the ability to control what he or she says.

00:08:32.480 I see a thousand times in business situations, the number one sin that people make mistakes in, in negotiations or in meetings, is they talk too much.

00:08:42.480 They say things that they shouldn't have said.

00:08:44.520 They reveal things about themselves that they shouldn't.

00:08:46.720 You need to have more self-control.

00:08:48.660 You need to be better at wearing that mask.

00:08:50.900 And you need to enjoy the sense of being a good actor and playing a role.

00:08:54.780 Some of the best people who are the most successful are really good at playing a role, are really good at this sort of acting aspect.

00:09:03.140 Does this kind of go to later on in the book when you talk about how Hubert Humphrey's story with Lyndon Johnson, how he meets, you know, Russell.

00:09:12.120 And Russell becomes like a courtier or becomes a mentor to, you know, Lyndon Johnson to take his ambitions and say, you're a little bit too vocal.

00:09:20.920 Your ambitions are a little too crazy.

00:09:22.620 You're rubbing people the wrong way.

00:09:23.720 And he finds a way to befriend Hubert Humphrey and at least to who he becomes.

00:09:26.800 So is that kind of intertwined with that story or no?

00:09:30.020 Yes, it is.

00:09:31.300 I mean, all my books are trying to make you, the reader, more outer directed.

00:09:36.000 So as I said, we're increasingly self-absorbed.

00:09:39.460 We're always thinking about ourselves.

00:09:41.560 Do people like me?

00:09:42.560 Did I say the right thing?

00:09:44.660 You know, am I being respected?

00:09:46.760 And I want to flip the scenario.

00:09:48.360 I want you to look and think about the other person, what they need, what they're thinking, their psychology, their background, their problems.

00:09:55.920 And starting from that position, you have the ability to influence them.

00:10:00.340 And that may lead into some of this acting ability where you know how to present the proper front for them, et cetera.

00:10:07.980 I know I get a lot of flack for this in my books, and I've had it since The 48 Laws of Power and The Art of Seduction.

00:10:15.000 But I'm saying to be a social animal and to be able to get along with people, of course, sometimes you need to be honest.

00:10:23.920 I don't think you should be dishonest with your wife and your children.

00:10:27.440 Those are personal situations.

00:10:29.340 I'm talking out in the business world.

00:10:31.760 I'm sure you, when you're addressing your thousands of employees at those, I've been to that in Vegas, you're playing a role.

00:10:42.240 You're wearing a mask.

00:10:43.860 You're showing them a kind of persona that's going to impress them.

00:10:47.180 You're being a leader.

00:10:48.660 Being a leader means being assertive, being strong, talking in a certain tone of voice, carrying yourself in a certain way.

00:10:55.720 You're an actor, and the better you are in front of a crowd in doing that, the more people will think of you as a person of authority, right?

00:11:04.460 That's a different perspective of thinking about it.

00:11:06.120 Now, do you think there's partly some people who struggle with that, or maybe they don't struggle with that, that we need to improve in that?

00:11:12.520 Because in the book, you talk about how one woman can meet a man, and a man can open up and say, let me tell you about the way I was raised, my relationship with my mother, and he starts crying.

00:11:22.160 And one woman can say, wow, what an emotional guy.

00:11:26.080 I love this guy.

00:11:27.040 Sensitive.

00:11:27.880 Sensitive.

00:11:28.560 Man, his heart, I felt him.

00:11:30.380 And another woman can say, what a pansy.

00:11:32.980 You are so weak, right?

00:11:34.600 Do you think the struggle is to try to get everybody to like us that becomes the issue where eventually we don't end up becoming who we really can become?

00:11:45.360 Or are you actually saying that one has to learn how to wear a different mask to deal with the person that wants the sensitive side or this side?

00:11:53.040 Because that can become a very complicated life because you become bipolar having to become so many different personalities.

00:11:58.980 So I'm really curious to know if we can dig a little deeper on what you're saying here.

00:12:02.360 Well, I'd say...

00:12:04.040 You know what I'm asking, right?

00:12:04.980 I think I do.

00:12:05.580 But I'm saying you need to be aware of the person that you're dealing with.

00:12:09.340 Now, some people are truly toxic, and we've all encountered them in our life.

00:12:15.260 They're no good.

00:12:16.860 They can ruin your life.

00:12:19.020 They're aggressive.

00:12:20.480 They're selfish, whatever it is.

00:12:23.620 And my book is full of stories of those types.

00:12:26.720 Now, when you're with them, you need to be able to suss them out.

00:12:30.540 You need to be able to see the signs that you're dealing with a toxic person.

00:12:34.920 So I'm telling you to be aware in the moment that every person you deal with in life is different, is an individual.

00:12:41.760 You, Patrick, have a background that's unique, right?

00:12:45.140 You've explained some of that to me.

00:12:46.620 The more I know about your unique background, about what makes you who you are, the better I'm able to deal with you.

00:12:53.540 It doesn't mean I have to become a fake person with Patrick.

00:12:57.300 It just means that when I know that you have these particular sensitivities and these particular values, I have to be aware of that.

00:13:06.180 And I have to not offend you, you know, or do things that are going to turn you against me.

00:13:13.720 So it's not like you have to make everybody like you, but you have to understand every person that you deal with and what makes them tick and what makes them an individual.

00:13:21.740 Sometimes you do have to alter yourself and how you talk to a person depending on who they are.

00:13:28.140 And you're not bipolar.

00:13:29.420 This is where the argument gets sidelined and is not right.

00:13:33.720 When you are in your daily life and you meet Jordan Peterson, for instance, you talk to him a certain way.

00:13:43.140 And when you meet somebody else who maybe you don't respect as much, you suddenly become another person.

00:13:48.520 I'm saying you're not aware of how deeply you are acting in your everyday interactions.

00:13:53.400 I agree with that.

00:13:54.020 You're always shifting your persona depending on who you meet.

00:13:57.140 You'll notice in your own life, there'll be people you meet who make you kind of aggressive.

00:14:02.120 You'll be very aggressive and assertive in them.

00:14:04.340 And other people you meet who make you very intimidated and you'll be the exact opposite.

00:14:08.980 You change depending on the people that you're with.

00:14:11.920 That's sort of natural.

00:14:13.240 That's how we are.

00:14:14.260 But you're not aware of that.

00:14:15.300 You're not aware of how much you are actually.

00:14:17.480 Are you saying to be in the equilibrium the most wins, like regardless of who you're sitting with,

00:14:23.140 or still have to make some adjustments no matter who I'm sitting with?

00:14:25.480 Yeah, that's why you brought up the Lyndon Johnson story.

00:14:27.920 The brilliance of Lyndon Johnson as a communicator was that he tailored his message to every different person that he met.

00:14:35.560 He wasn't the same with Hubert Humphrey as he was to Dick Russell, as he was to John F. Kennedy.

00:14:40.900 He was a master at always sort of shifting depending on the vulnerabilities and the values of the person he was dealing with.

00:14:48.980 So you need to deal with people as individuals.

00:14:52.120 People are complex.

00:14:54.380 We like to simplify them.

00:14:56.220 Some more than others.

00:14:57.300 Some more than others.

00:14:58.080 But everyone is more complex than you think.

00:15:01.340 And we like to simplify them.

00:15:03.600 So when we're dealing with someone, we think we have a snap judgment about them.

00:15:08.340 They're like this or that.

00:15:09.640 But they're more complicated than you think.

00:15:12.540 And so the more you can figure out what makes them different, what makes them an individual,

00:15:17.080 the better your chances of having the ability to influence them.

00:15:20.980 Influence is an important part of this book.

00:15:23.760 And some people might think that that's kind of something evil, that I'm being very Machiavellian.

00:15:30.720 But as I've made the point from the 48 Laws of Power, there's no worse feeling in life than the fact that you can have no influence over the people around you.

00:15:40.180 That you can't influence your children or your spouse or your boss or your colleagues.

00:15:45.540 We all want the ability to persuade people to be able to move them in some direction.

00:15:53.300 So there's nothing evil about that, in my opinion.

00:15:55.620 No, I'm with you there.

00:15:56.860 So, by the way, Lyndon Johnson seems to be a guy you like to write a lot about.

00:16:01.340 Because you've written about him before.

00:16:02.660 It's true.

00:16:03.180 With how he went on a run and he ran for office.

00:16:05.720 And how the day after he got elected, the next day he was hospitalized from exhaustion because he works hard.

00:16:11.060 I think you talked about that in 33 Strategies.

00:16:13.800 Or Chapter 4, I think.

00:16:14.880 It's maybe Chapter 4 or 5.

00:16:15.940 It's one of the first few chapters that you said, you know, throw everything at one goal.

00:16:20.800 Death ground strategy.

00:16:21.740 Death ground strategy, which is the sickest strategy.

00:16:23.740 Out of all of them, that's my favorite strategy that you have.

00:16:26.140 I agree with that strategy.

00:16:27.920 But do you think sometimes a person being way too ambitious, because you know Lyndon knew from day one he wanted to be a president.

00:16:35.300 It wasn't like it was an unknown thing.

00:16:39.020 Like everybody knew he wanted to be president.

00:16:40.800 Do you think Russell sitting down with him and him finally being able to trust somebody to say, listen, I don't have a bigger motivation than you.

00:16:47.520 I can't.

00:16:47.980 I'm not trying to be a president.

00:16:49.260 I can help you get to the next level.

00:16:50.880 Do you think the moment he felt like Russell's coming from a standpoint of really wanting to give him some direction and help him out.

00:16:56.840 He put his guards down and say, let me just speak to this guy and allow him to counsel me a little bit.

00:17:01.660 You think him learning how to tame his ambitions in a way that a lot other people would want to counsel him, help them eventually become a president.

00:17:08.940 You know, some of the most aggressive, powerful people in history had incredibly high levels of ambition.

00:17:18.200 And they had to learn to control that on their rise to the top.

00:17:22.840 That's how people become successful, is by their ability to channel their energy.

00:17:28.240 So you have to be aware that the game is social, that the winners in life have a wider base of operation.

00:17:35.720 They have more supporters.

00:17:36.780 They have more allies than other people.

00:17:38.740 You're not going to get very far in life if you're alienating everyone around you, right?

00:17:44.300 You have to learn self-control.

00:17:47.540 I mean, all my books are about learning how to control yourself.

00:17:50.520 You're asking me how you learn to control yourself?

00:17:53.080 It's baby steps.

00:17:54.260 It's little things.

00:17:55.360 I mean, I have all sorts of lessons in all of my books.

00:17:59.340 Like, if you're angry about something, you don't act on your anger.

00:18:05.220 You wait 24 hours, 48 hours before sending that email, before yelling at someone.

00:18:10.280 These are little steps you take to learn to control that.

00:18:14.560 If you're highly ambitious and you show too much of it, sometimes it's good to show ambition,

00:18:20.680 but you need to show a certain amount, not too much to frighten people.

00:18:25.340 Well, that's what these books are about.

00:18:26.900 They're being self-aware that in a certain situation, you enter an office, 30 people,

00:18:32.780 and you suddenly show that you want to be like the number one person,

00:18:37.740 you're going to find your path really difficult in life.

00:18:40.600 But if you show that you don't have any ambition, no one will respect you.

00:18:44.940 So you have to hit that proper medium.

00:18:47.200 Got it.

00:18:47.500 And you learn how to do that.

00:18:49.520 You learn by your mistakes.

00:18:51.040 You learn by the people you've pissed off that you've alienated.

00:18:54.080 And you learn self-control.

00:18:55.820 Powerful.

00:18:56.220 Ive was on the board of directors of a publicly traded company run by an entrepreneur who was very successful,

00:19:04.740 but who had no self-control.

00:19:07.620 He couldn't control himself in an interview.

00:19:10.380 When he was interviewed by a reporter, he would talk about his sex life.

00:19:14.620 He had no ability to censor himself.

00:19:19.720 And when he got angry, he yelled at people.

00:19:23.200 He baited so many enemies that he ended up destroying himself.

00:19:27.040 I was part of the group that fired him as the CEO of the company,

00:19:31.300 and then the company just completely tanked because of that.

00:19:33.800 I see that all the time.

00:19:34.860 We're looking at that with Elon Musk.

00:19:37.300 You have a person like that who has no self-control, and it becomes a problem.

00:19:42.140 And so what do you think about what Elon Musk is doing?

00:19:44.020 Are you saying Elon Musk is somebody that has fully lost control,

00:19:48.340 or is Elon Musk a person who is going through logical people trying to tame his creativity,

00:19:57.780 and they're clashing together?

00:19:59.520 Because these guys are looking at profits.

00:20:01.200 This guy's thinking about changing the world.

00:20:02.980 Yeah, but what happens is your ego gets in the way.

00:20:06.640 I've seen people like that.

00:20:07.960 They think that they cannot be challenged.

00:20:10.240 They think so highly of themselves that they can't stand anybody challenging them.

00:20:15.960 So yeah, look, you've created a publicly traded company now.

00:20:20.160 If you don't want people to challenge you,

00:20:22.040 if you don't want the difficulties that come with a publicly traded company,

00:20:25.820 then don't do it.

00:20:27.100 It's very simple.

00:20:28.300 If you don't want those kind of walls,

00:20:30.300 those obstacles that people are going to put up,

00:20:32.160 then don't do it.

00:20:33.020 But he made that decision.

00:20:34.500 And once you make that decision,

00:20:36.240 and you're a strategist,

00:20:37.420 you're not just an entrepreneur,

00:20:39.180 but you're a leader and a business person,

00:20:41.140 you have to make compromises.

00:20:43.140 You have to control what you tweet.

00:20:44.860 The car business is an extremely difficult business.

00:20:48.360 It depends on mass producing something at a reasonable price.

00:20:53.920 And so you have to have a scale that you can manage.

00:20:57.880 And he never really had that.

00:21:00.220 He didn't build his company up in an organic, slow fashion.

00:21:04.080 He was too ambitious.

00:21:05.100 He went too quickly.

00:21:05.900 I saw that with the man who I was on the board of directors.

00:21:10.040 He expanded too quickly,

00:21:12.340 which gets back to your ambition thing.

00:21:14.660 So you have to be careful,

00:21:16.720 and you have to be a strategist in life.

00:21:18.580 And I think someone like Elon Musk

00:21:20.220 lacks a degree of self-control.

00:21:23.060 So who would you think would be a good strategist in the business world?

00:21:26.460 Are your opinions the same with a guy like Jeff Bezos?

00:21:29.200 Yes, he's extremely smart.

00:21:30.680 I read an article recently about the guy who took over, I believe it's Best Buy.

00:21:36.640 He's really smart.

00:21:38.180 He's doing an incredible job in an industry that's dying.

00:21:43.100 You know, a large store that's selling technology.

00:21:45.460 It's a terrible business to be in.

00:21:47.560 He's extremely wise in how he treats his employees and how he built his business slowly.

00:21:52.180 I think Reed Hastings is a great example.

00:21:55.560 He's made some mistakes, but he's built, I think he's quite a smart strategist.

00:21:59.700 So what do you think about Bezos?

00:22:00.900 Do you think Bezos is a great strategist?

00:22:03.140 Yeah, he's almost too great a strategist.

00:22:05.180 What does that mean?

00:22:05.720 Well, that means I'm not necessarily in favor of monopolies like that.

00:22:11.680 I think there's some dangers to it.

00:22:13.100 He understood that you can go five, ten years without making any money, without any profit.

00:22:20.720 But as long as you expand the brand and you get people addicted to what you can give them,

00:22:25.180 then he thought long term.

00:22:27.240 He was a visionary.

00:22:28.400 He thought in terms of 10, 15 years.

00:22:30.500 And if I have any fault with business leaders is they don't have that ability to look past the quarterly report.

00:22:36.720 He was willing to lose a lot of money knowing that he was building something extremely powerful.

00:22:41.600 He's a great strategist.

00:22:42.580 So what's the difference in your mind between Elon Musk and a Jeff Bezos?

00:22:45.980 Elon Musk is more of a visionary, but he's not a practical person.

00:22:50.160 He's not an ABC type person.

00:22:52.620 He's not able to, I think, build something that's sustainable.

00:22:55.260 We'll see.

00:22:56.800 But I think he got too, he was too much of in a hurry.

00:22:59.400 And he believed too much in his own myth.

00:23:02.320 And he thinks that anything he touches is going to be brilliant and great.

00:23:06.200 He doesn't know his own limits.

00:23:08.760 Bezos would make mistakes and he would kind of learn from his mistakes.

00:23:12.980 He's a humbler person in a way, although he probably has a pretty big ego by now.

00:23:17.700 Elon Musk doesn't seem like somebody who's learning from his mistakes.

00:23:20.480 I don't know.

00:23:20.900 I could be wrong.

00:23:21.740 But I think he's someone who's a little bit out of control.

00:23:24.660 Why don't we lead into the toxic, different toxic types, if you don't mind.

00:23:28.660 And I'm going to read this part here.

00:23:29.820 This chapter is Determine the Strength of People's Characters.

00:23:33.120 So you talk about the toxic characters and then you go into a strong character.

00:23:36.860 I kind of want to highlight that as well.

00:23:38.560 But prior to doing that, I want to read this part to you on what you say in the book.

00:23:43.520 You say,

00:23:43.800 The weak character begins from the opposite side.

00:23:45.920 They are easily overwhelmed by circumstances, making them hard to rely on.

00:23:50.200 They are slippery and evasive.

00:23:52.520 Worst of all, they cannot be taught because learning from others implies criticism.

00:23:57.520 This means you will eventually hit a wall in dealing with them.

00:24:01.400 They may appear to listen to your instructions, but they will simply revert to what they think is best.

00:24:07.200 You talk about the hyper-perfectionist.

00:24:09.520 Then you talk about the relentless rebel, the personalizer, the drama magnet, the big talker, the sexualizer, the pampered prince, pleaser, savior, the easy moralizer.

00:24:20.920 And I'm reading this.

00:24:21.920 I'm like, oh my gosh.

00:24:23.900 You know, I had a little bit of that at this phase of my life.

00:24:28.040 This was a little.

00:24:28.720 Yeah, I mean, I'm reading it.

00:24:29.820 It's like a part of it.

00:24:31.020 I'm like, maybe this is a little bit of me.

00:24:32.340 And so we sat there and I said, so which one do you think this is me?

00:24:34.820 And we're going through it in a plan.

00:24:36.340 I send a text message of these eight pages to like 40 people.

00:24:39.300 And I wanted them to do it.

00:24:40.520 And I said, what is your takeaway from this?

00:24:42.680 And I saw some people's response.

00:24:44.420 Some people would say, no, I sent it to 40 people.

00:24:46.840 And I just said, what do you think about these eight pages?

00:24:50.260 And some people's response was, well, it makes me know how to deal with a few people in my life.

00:24:55.780 Right?

00:24:56.560 And then some people's response was, I don't see any of it as me.

00:25:00.180 Okay?

00:25:00.540 Okay, no problem.

00:25:02.340 And then some people were like, wow, I can see some of my flaws.

00:25:06.660 And it was so interesting on how people read some of these pages.

00:25:11.100 So toxic types.

00:25:12.980 Why don't you talk a little bit about these different toxic types?

00:25:15.560 There's no one more dangerous than a person who has no self-awareness.

00:25:21.600 They can't see who they are.

00:25:23.500 Because that gives them license to do whatever they want and feel justified.

00:25:27.220 So I want you to become aware of perhaps you have these tendencies yourself.

00:25:33.260 The ability to judge people's character, maybe one of the most important chapters in the book,

00:25:38.580 but one of the most important skills you can develop in life.

00:25:41.240 Because think about it, you are constantly in a situation in life in which you have to decide on whether you want to associate with this person or not.

00:25:50.040 You want to hire them as an employee.

00:25:52.160 You want to vote for them for president.

00:25:54.240 You want to marry them.

00:25:55.880 You want them to be your friend.

00:25:57.320 We've all been in situations where we thought somebody was a certain way.

00:26:03.280 And then a year later or a few months later, we discover a whole other side to their personality.

00:26:08.180 And it's not good.

00:26:09.600 And we're surprised and we're disappointed.

00:26:12.280 And we tend to blame them as if they were fooling us.

00:26:15.960 People leave traces of who they are.

00:26:18.600 You're just not picking up the signs.

00:26:20.860 I say in this chapter, nobody ever does anything once.

00:26:24.320 If somebody has done a bad deed or you see them mistreating somebody else, and then they'll come back and say,

00:26:32.500 Oh, it just came over me.

00:26:34.100 It has happened once.

00:26:35.620 I'm not, that's not who I am.

00:26:37.100 You'll believe them.

00:26:38.360 You should not ever believe them.

00:26:40.240 You should realize that people have patterns.

00:26:42.660 When they do something bad, they probably have done it before and will do it again.

00:26:46.800 So these are types of people who have certain patterns.

00:26:49.820 And I want you to be able to pick them up.

00:26:52.020 And we're making the distinction between strong and weak characters.

00:26:56.660 A weak character can't stand any kind of criticism.

00:26:59.980 They can't learn from situations.

00:27:02.440 Their ego is too fragile.

00:27:04.840 And a strong person can adapt and can take criticism.

00:27:08.460 Let's say you sent that out to 40 employees.

00:27:11.280 And I thought what you said was you wanted them to assess you as a leader through the prism of those.

00:27:17.200 No, I did that with the people I work with on a daily basis.

00:27:19.520 Like I did that with Mario.

00:27:21.120 I did that with my wife.

00:27:21.940 I did that with people.

00:27:22.640 And I said, which one do you think is me?

00:27:23.800 That's a sign of a strong character.

00:27:25.840 And that's a sign of someone who is a good leader.

00:27:27.960 I have a quote in there from Schopenhauer that fools do not show up wearing a cap and bells.

00:27:35.640 And evil, destructive people don't have horns on their head.

00:27:39.040 They've learned to disguise themselves.

00:27:41.660 So really toxic people have learned since an early age that if they just simply display their ugly behavior, they'll turn off people.

00:27:51.220 And so they learn to be charming.

00:27:53.340 And they learn to be kind of seductive.

00:27:55.900 And they wear a mask that disguises you from the reality.

00:27:59.860 Is it the fact that every 100% of people fall under one of these toxic types?

00:28:04.920 No.

00:28:05.540 No.

00:28:05.840 So there are people that don't fall under any of these toxic types.

00:28:08.680 We all have a little bit of them.

00:28:09.900 Well, that's what I'm saying.

00:28:10.800 I have a little bit of the hyper-perfectionist in it for sure.

00:28:13.380 I can see that.

00:28:14.360 I can see that because I can see that because how many years have you and I been talking about writing this book?

00:28:19.600 I mean, I remember one time you and I spoke and you're like,

00:28:21.900 Pat, if I have one other person, your mother had just called you that day.

00:28:26.000 And she said, how are you doing with the book?

00:28:27.560 And you were upset.

00:28:28.460 You said, if my mother calls me one more time asking me how the book is looking, I'm going to lose it.

00:28:32.840 I don't want anybody to ask me about the book.

00:28:34.360 You wrote 300 books to write this book.

00:28:35.980 Over 300 books to write this book.

00:28:38.000 I can see that.

00:28:39.020 But what I want to know is the following.

00:28:40.700 Okay.

00:28:41.380 One, almost all of us have a part of the toxic types.

00:28:46.680 The perfectionist, a relentless rebel, personalizer, drama magnum, big talker, sexualizer, pampered prince, pleaser, savior, easy moralizer, etc., etc., right?

00:28:55.740 We all have it.

00:28:56.460 We do.

00:28:56.780 Okay.

00:28:57.700 Is the key self-awareness and then have somebody give counsel to you or is it self, like can you address it yourself?

00:29:06.480 You know what I'm saying?

00:29:07.240 Is it something that maybe I need to sit down and consult with anybody because how I view myself is obviously, you know, nine out of ten times different than how other people view me.

00:29:17.360 Would you agree with that?

00:29:18.280 Definitely.

00:29:18.820 So do you think we almost need somebody else who knows us very well to give us their feedback with us willing to take it?

00:29:25.720 Well, it's a question of both.

00:29:27.260 It's a great question.

00:29:28.440 It's good to get feedback.

00:29:30.260 It's just sometimes you can't trust people's feedback.

00:29:32.620 I agree with that.

00:29:33.060 People will be political with you, particularly you as a CEO of a great company.

00:29:37.860 They may not be very honest.

00:29:39.080 They may be afraid to be honest with you.

00:29:40.740 Your wife may be less so, but even she has her limits.

00:29:44.980 Even she knows that she doesn't want to, she needs to please you or stay on your good side.

00:29:49.960 So you need to have the ability to do both.

00:29:53.300 The greatest sign is when you've had an interaction with people and it didn't go the way you expected it.

00:30:01.420 The person was colder than you thought.

00:30:03.820 Maybe they were offended.

00:30:05.300 Are you going to go back home and, God, that guy's an asshole.

00:30:09.500 Fuck him.

00:30:10.280 What an idiot.

00:30:11.200 Are you going to go home?

00:30:12.360 Are you going to say, what did I do wrong?

00:30:15.140 Was I being too dramatic?

00:30:17.140 Was I being too personal in this situation?

00:30:20.160 Was I moralizing too much?

00:30:22.520 Can you go home and self-reflect and say, well, maybe I have some of these problems.

00:30:28.160 That's the difference between you and the toxic type.

00:30:30.540 The toxic type can't go through that process.

00:30:33.580 Let's say that the quality in a person is almost like a metal.

00:30:37.740 There's the word tensile.

00:30:39.300 If you're a strong person, you can bend a little bit.

00:30:43.440 That metal, if it bends a little bit, is actually stronger.

00:30:47.280 People who are weak can't take any kind of criticism, can't look at themselves.

00:30:54.060 Their ego is very fragile.

00:30:56.240 They're going to wilt under any kind of challenge.

00:30:58.680 Okay, so let's go through the process on when you talk about the superior character, right?

00:31:05.340 Because you talk about that, and it's incredible how you explain it.

00:31:07.760 Say I'm somebody that has one of these toxic personalities, right?

00:31:12.040 Masks that I wear due to upbringing.

00:31:15.320 Mother, like when you tell the story about how Howard Hughes was raised with a mother that almost was all over him and loved on him.

00:31:21.740 He couldn't do anything wrong, and the dad wanted him to have a certain set of standards to continue the family legacy, and then he didn't want to be dependent, and I don't want to be, and then they die, and then boom, he's left to do this.

00:31:32.640 And he's a technical guy, but he's not really a businessman and a visionary and a leader.

00:31:36.140 You're explaining all that other stuff.

00:31:37.540 But say I'm somebody, I read it.

00:31:39.340 And I said I got three of them, and it concerns me, and I want to change.

00:31:42.900 And I see a trend on the kind of people I attract or the kind of people I keep losing in my life, right?

00:31:47.720 Like I remember one time I dated three girls in a span of four years.

00:31:51.440 They were all the same.

00:31:52.820 Like why am I attracting this problem in my life?

00:31:55.080 And I said, one day I'm sitting there, I'm like, oh, this girl, these girls nowadays.

00:31:58.860 I'm like, dude, it's not these girls nowadays.

00:32:00.400 It's you.

00:32:01.860 So then I came from this standpoint, and then I said, dude, I am not playing around.

00:32:05.300 I've got to figure out who the hell this guy is.

00:32:07.200 Because I wouldn't let my own daughter marry a guy like me.

00:32:09.420 That was my biggest challenge I had.

00:32:10.740 So I'm staying single for a while.

00:32:12.060 I've got to figure myself out.

00:32:13.200 How does somebody who knows this to go to the superior character?

00:32:17.000 So what processes do I need to go through?

00:32:19.100 The main thing is, is knowing that you have that quality.

00:32:24.180 See, like if you don't think that you have, let's say you are a hyper-perfectionist, and

00:32:29.420 I have those tendencies, but you're not aware of it.

00:32:32.580 You don't think that you have that problem.

00:32:35.060 You're never going to be able to stop it.

00:32:36.800 You're never going to be able to control it.

00:32:38.640 So 90% of the game is your self-awareness.

00:32:41.580 So when you get in a situation the next time where your tendencies, I make a point in the

00:32:48.380 book that we have a lower and a higher self.

00:32:50.860 The lower self is this kind of animal part of us that makes us act without thinking, that

00:32:56.160 makes us fall into patterns, that makes us get emotional, that makes us take the path

00:33:00.760 of least resistance.

00:33:01.760 And we're constantly falling for that because it's easier.

00:33:06.720 It's the animal part of our nature.

00:33:08.880 If you're aware of this part of you, if you're aware that you have these tendencies, then you

00:33:13.760 can begin to control them.

00:33:15.440 But I don't want people to think that you have to aim too high.

00:33:20.560 You're not trying to become Gandhi or something.

00:33:23.020 We have our flaws and we have our limitations.

00:33:26.460 So you are aware that you have a pattern with certain women.

00:33:31.100 Okay, three of them.

00:33:32.580 I can bet you that there was probably a fourth woman that you were about to fall for.

00:33:37.680 Or maybe this happened.

00:33:39.480 Okay, and maybe you did.

00:33:41.640 But then at that point you realize, oh, here I'm doing it again.

00:33:44.440 Yes.

00:33:44.800 All right, I got to step back.

00:33:45.620 It takes time.

00:33:46.680 Yeah.

00:33:47.160 When you make a mistake, when you have a painful relationship, a painful, a bad interaction,

00:33:51.880 you step back and you say, is this a pattern in my life?

00:33:56.160 Now with that awareness, you can begin to break that pattern.

00:33:59.400 You talked about creativity and having people give you some counsel and feedback.

00:34:05.780 Two days ago, we were with Chip Wilson.

00:34:07.100 I don't know if you know what Chip Wilson is, founder of Lululemon.

00:34:09.260 Oh, sure.

00:34:09.700 He's worth $3.9 billion.

00:34:11.780 And so we get along when we talk politically.

00:34:13.880 We may go at it for a long time and have some incredible conversations together.

00:34:17.760 But I always walk away saying, this is my friend.

00:34:20.740 We have a relationship together.

00:34:21.640 I feel the same way, Patrick.

00:34:23.060 100%.

00:34:23.460 I totally respect you.

00:34:25.280 100%.

00:34:25.640 You're a great CEO.

00:34:26.920 Thank you.

00:34:27.260 You're a wise leader.

00:34:28.800 I appreciate that.

00:34:29.320 You're not a toxic type.

00:34:30.480 Thank you so much.

00:34:31.320 Thank you.

00:34:32.260 So the part he said to me that was very interesting, and I walked away.

00:34:37.020 He said, a true creative person is never happy.

00:34:40.180 Because whatever product he creates, he's never happy after he produces it.

00:34:43.680 But he said, the challenge sometimes is, nowadays, that board of directors drive away creativity

00:34:49.860 in the company.

00:34:50.440 So as the company gets around longer, all they want to do is profit.

00:34:53.580 So fire people, raise costs, and do this.

00:34:57.340 It's almost like printing money to make the economy look good.

00:34:59.960 But then you know you're going to have a hit a few years later.

00:35:02.700 And so I asked him a question about how to get the creative person to deal with the logical

00:35:08.440 people that are going to tell you trends.

00:35:09.940 Look, we can't be doing this.

00:35:10.840 Last time we did, we lost money.

00:35:11.780 All this other stuff.

00:35:13.180 How do you, having studied so many different people and having studied so many different

00:35:16.820 things, where do you see the balance of a creative visionary, Elon Musk, knows he needs

00:35:22.380 data.

00:35:23.480 He knows he needs to look at trends.

00:35:25.220 He knows he needs to sit down and talk to the logical people that they see numbers.

00:35:29.320 And the logical people know they need Elon.

00:35:31.900 They need a guy that's going to cast a vision on where to go next.

00:35:34.520 How do you make those two personalities work?

00:35:36.920 From the Elon Musk perspective, he has to be aware that he has limits.

00:35:43.280 That he's not great at certain things.

00:35:46.160 That he knows how to come up with a great idea for the Tesla car, but how to make, how

00:35:54.900 to build it to a scale that it can become like a General Motors.

00:35:58.560 He's in over his head.

00:36:00.740 He's going to need help.

00:36:02.540 He decided to go to become a publicly traded company so he could raise money on a different

00:36:07.580 level than if he were private.

00:36:09.020 So you need to realize that you're dependent on other people.

00:36:12.380 All right.

00:36:13.120 So if you're Elon Musk and you're just gone public, you're aware that you have your limits.

00:36:20.140 You're aware that you can be a bit egocentric.

00:36:22.760 All right.

00:36:23.040 Who am I going to bring onto the board?

00:36:25.580 That's a key decision.

00:36:26.860 Am I going to bring on a bunch of yes-men who are just going to kowtow to everything I say?

00:36:32.680 Which I think he started off with a board like that.

00:36:35.020 Or am I going to bring people on who are just numbers people who are going to make my life

00:36:39.820 miserable, who are only about a quarterly report for boosting the price on Wall Street?

00:36:45.080 Or am I going to bring in smart, strategic people who are going to cover for my flaws?

00:36:49.820 So a great leader realizes, and I talk a lot about this in the war book for great generals,

00:36:57.680 know that they have flaws and limitations.

00:37:00.380 And the people they hire are designed to cover those flaws.

00:37:05.280 So if I'm not great at execution, I'm going to hire people to serve on the board who are

00:37:11.620 practical, who have a track record, but who are not meddlers.

00:37:15.080 So it's a key element there is who you choose to be on your board.

00:37:19.760 That's a tough thing.

00:37:20.740 And he talked about that.

00:37:21.920 Let me tell you.

00:37:22.800 It is such a tough, it's easier to say it than tougher to be in a situation because when

00:37:27.100 you're hiring a board...

00:37:28.080 I've been in this situation, so I know how tough it is because you could hire someone

00:37:32.740 who is like that and then they get on the board and they feel the pressure from being

00:37:36.120 a publicly traded company and for getting in trouble with shareholders.

00:37:40.420 Who am I beholden to, the shareholders or to the CEO?

00:37:43.660 And at some point you're legally responsible to the shareholders and you start changing

00:37:49.180 who you were.

00:37:50.460 So it's a difficult decision and a lot of it's based on the character of the people

00:37:54.320 that you choose.

00:37:56.060 But the main thing would be for the guy that I worked for and my board was like Elon Musk

00:38:03.220 and he could not be aware of his own flaws and limitations.

00:38:07.160 He thought he could do the whole thing.

00:38:08.960 He built this company from one store to hundreds of stores around the world.

00:38:14.100 Why does anybody know more than I do?

00:38:17.840 You know, and I told him beginning from day one, look, you have limitations.

00:38:23.000 There are things that you're not good at.

00:38:24.820 Let me...

00:38:25.180 You told him that.

00:38:25.800 Yeah.

00:38:26.080 How was his reaction when he had that conversation with you?

00:38:28.220 He just wouldn't listen.

00:38:29.240 He loves me because of the 48 laws of power.

00:38:31.620 He brought me onto the board because...

00:38:32.860 So he wanted more power.

00:38:34.020 He didn't want to...

00:38:34.760 He wanted a yes man.

00:38:35.880 He wanted someone just to validate his ego.

00:38:38.360 So the Elon Musk thing is who do you choose to be your lieutenants?

00:38:42.800 It's not a science because once you get on the board, people change, you know.

00:38:48.360 But you have to have a mix of people from different backgrounds and create.

00:38:53.860 It's like choosing a basketball team.

00:38:56.700 You've got to have the right kind of mix.

00:38:58.840 And then from the board point of view, you have to understand that this is the creative

00:39:03.840 person.

00:39:04.440 This is the person who's driving the company.

00:39:06.860 You can't put straitjackets on them.

00:39:08.880 You can't tell them to be someone that they're not.

00:39:11.240 That's tough to do for them.

00:39:12.580 It's extremely tough because you're feeling shareholder pressure.

00:39:15.780 So in my case, the guy who was this visionary CEO, he was brilliant.

00:39:20.420 He's a brilliant entrepreneur.

00:39:22.000 He knew how to design clothes.

00:39:23.840 And the board was trying to constrain him and always like not giving him the money that

00:39:29.240 he needed.

00:39:29.740 He wanted to constantly borrow more money to expand, et cetera.

00:39:34.000 They were putting all sorts of limitations on him that were making so he couldn't use his

00:39:38.700 strains.

00:39:40.000 So it's the fact that the board members and the CEO are aware of their own limitations.

00:39:47.380 Now that's easier said than done.

00:39:48.600 No doubt about it because I'm in these meetings all the time.

00:39:52.000 But I won't read this part to you.

00:39:53.100 Okay, so two things.

00:39:54.380 And then let's go into envy.

00:39:55.680 And I got some questions I want to ask you about persuasion and possibly even an event

00:39:59.560 that happened in Argentina two weeks ago when a guy got up and gave his opinion about how

00:40:05.260 millennials should change and they don't understand this and they don't understand that.

00:40:09.260 And I'm like, this is a completely different perspective he's coming from.

00:40:12.760 Maybe what your opinions are about some generational, how everybody has certain tech.

00:40:16.880 So you talk about here in the book, you obviously talk a lot about the narcissistic leader.

00:40:20.160 But you say, if anyone dares to challenge the narcissist, they are more prone than others

00:40:25.540 to go into deep narcissistic rage.

00:40:28.100 They are hypersensitive.

00:40:29.440 They also like to stir up constant drama as a means to justify their power.

00:40:34.360 They are the only ones who can solve problems they create.

00:40:38.200 Constant drama also gives them more opportunities to be the center of attention.

00:40:42.260 The workplace is never stable under their direction.

00:40:45.740 How does one who is going through this, now you and I talked about it earlier when we

00:40:48.960 talked about presidents, and I said there's not a single president we've had that doesn't

00:40:52.340 have a slight element of narcissism.

00:40:54.880 You know, Trump has it, Obama has it.

00:40:57.620 Every CEO has it.

00:40:58.640 Every CEO has it, right?

00:41:00.160 And there could be a good thing, but learning how to control and come to the next level.

00:41:03.760 How do you prevent this from happening, from constantly creating problems to solve if

00:41:10.100 there are no problems?

00:41:11.700 Okay, so I have a definition of narcissism that's a little different from other people's.

00:41:17.000 Normally we think of a narcissist as someone who loves themself.

00:41:20.320 And I'm actually saying that a narcissist is a person who doesn't love themself sufficiently.

00:41:26.300 So in order to get through life, we have to have a degree of self-esteem.

00:41:31.540 We have to think that we're worthy of certain things.

00:41:33.880 We have to have a sense of inner worth.

00:41:35.460 If we don't have that kind of bedrock from within, we constantly need attention and validation

00:41:41.780 from other people, right?

00:41:43.860 I need attention.

00:41:45.020 I need to stir trouble.

00:41:46.620 I need to feed my ego.

00:41:48.620 I can't get it from myself.

00:41:49.960 I have to get it from other people.

00:41:51.700 That's a classic, what I call a deep narcissist.

00:41:54.900 And that's why they cause so many problems in life.

00:41:57.480 And I measure it.

00:41:59.060 I say, imagine it like a water line.

00:42:01.900 And here at the top is someone who's not a narcissist.

00:42:04.380 Here at the middle is kind of an average person.

00:42:07.720 And as you sink deeper into narcissism, you're more and more self-absorbed.

00:42:12.400 You can never get up to that mid-level point where you can start thinking about other people.

00:42:16.560 At the high point, you're someone who's very empathetic.

00:42:19.320 You're able to get inside the mind of other people.

00:42:21.700 You understand their moods, their emotions.

00:42:24.200 Most of us fall at that range of maybe 60%, 50 being the middle line.

00:42:30.380 We have moments of narcissism where we get self-absorbed, particularly if we have problems.

00:42:34.380 And we turn inward.

00:42:36.960 But then we have enough self-esteem because of our parents and because of our background that we raise ourselves back up.

00:42:43.380 And we don't keep continually sinking into that narcissism.

00:42:46.520 We want to get higher.

00:42:47.680 We want to get to that level where we're able to be more empathetic.

00:42:51.300 A deep narcissist has sunk so far below that they can never get up to even to that halfway point.

00:42:56.800 They're so self-absorbed.

00:42:58.240 They're so insecure.

00:42:59.160 They constantly must stir up trouble.

00:43:02.120 They need to be the center of attention.

00:43:04.320 If to be the center of attention means to create a great work of art, that's fine.

00:43:09.520 But sometimes to be the center of attention means to mess with people, to create problems, to stir up trouble, and to be at the center of that.

00:43:16.960 Once somebody is at that level, like a 20 or a 30, these are just arbitrary numbers, there's nothing that's going to raise them back up.

00:43:24.420 That's who they are.

00:43:25.880 There's nothing they can do.

00:43:27.460 There's almost nothing other people can do.

00:43:29.560 They are, what's the word?

00:43:32.660 They're damaged goods.

00:43:33.760 There's nothing that can happen.

00:43:36.160 I don't think so.

00:43:37.320 Wow.

00:43:38.420 Those are some strong words right there.

00:43:39.920 Well, I have a story, actually a story that got cut from the book.

00:43:43.540 If you got my bonus material, if you pre-order the laws of human nature, you get some bonus material.

00:43:49.180 There's a story I cut that I gave you about Robert Oppenheimer, the physicist, who was a deep narcissist who managed to kind of cure himself.

00:43:57.740 And the way he cured himself was through work.

00:44:01.060 Instead of absorbing himself and getting attention, he put all of his energy into the Manhattan Project and into later becoming a great physicist, sort of a public figure.

00:44:13.900 He turned against nuclear arms, etc.

00:44:17.180 He sort of cured himself.

00:44:18.820 You can perhaps cure yourself through your work, through getting out of this.

00:44:23.000 Interesting.

00:44:23.280 Getting your attention through what you achieve rather than through what you stir up from other people.

00:44:29.080 But generally, once you get past that low level, there's nothing you can do because you're addicted to getting attention from other people.

00:44:39.520 When you're in the business world, you have to deal with so many different personalities.

00:44:42.680 Yeah.

00:44:42.920 And it first starts off on you realizing, hey, why am I attracting people like this?

00:44:46.040 Well, maybe because they're like you, right?

00:44:47.360 And you're attracting your own self.

00:44:49.200 And then you change.

00:44:50.080 Oh, wow, I'm attracting quality people.

00:44:51.660 What's going on over here?

00:44:52.500 Well, there's a reflection that's taking place as well.

00:44:55.300 And sometimes as I'm coaching, I'm sitting and going through these conversations, I think about some of the things I saw happening early on in my career.

00:45:02.140 One of the things you wrote in this book, page 47, okay?

00:45:05.640 You said moralizers.

00:45:06.880 Because, you know, sometimes we talk about narcissism and bipolar and people say, this person, they're like this, they're narcissistic, they're this.

00:45:13.720 Moralizers who try to separate themselves out and denounce the narcissist in the world today are often the biggest narcissist of them all.

00:45:21.960 That's right.

00:45:22.440 They love the sound of their voice as they point fingers and preach.

00:45:26.920 We are all on the spectrum of self-absorption, creating a self that we can love in healthy development.

00:45:33.520 There should be no stigma attached to it, right?

00:45:35.580 This whole idea of I'm above narcissism.

00:45:37.980 No.

00:45:38.120 I can't believe somebody would be somebody like this.

00:45:40.240 No.

00:45:40.400 I think they are some of the biggest narcissists in the world.

00:45:43.060 They are.

00:45:43.080 They are.

00:45:43.780 In other words, if I write about aggression or I write about envy or I write about narcissism, every single human being that has ever lived is inside that circle.

00:45:53.620 We all have that quality.

00:45:55.540 And the worst type of people are those who say, oh, no, it's not me.

00:45:59.300 I'm not a narcissist.

00:46:00.640 I'm not aggressive.

00:46:01.780 I never feel envy.

00:46:03.700 It's not possible.

00:46:04.660 I explain why we are all narcissists, why we're all self-absorbed.

00:46:09.660 It comes from the way that we are raised as children and how we need to feel validated for ourselves.

00:46:17.800 So the people who claim that they're not narcissistic are generally very dangerous.

00:46:22.420 I've seen them manipulate and divide in ways that just makes no sense to me.

00:46:26.560 And I think they're extremely powerful when it comes down to persuasion.

00:46:31.020 Sounds like you've had some personal experiences.

00:46:32.680 Yes, many of them.

00:46:33.680 Can you share one?

00:46:34.700 So the campaign, let's just say if I'm dealing with you and you did something that you have to make a tough decision, okay?

00:46:42.600 They'll go campaign their sympathy, not their sympathy, their unfairness, like that word.

00:46:49.940 It's so unfair and I don't know how to handle this and I'm coming from this place and I'm trying to and I'm, you know, going to church and I'm going through this and I'm really.

00:46:58.180 And then people are like, oh, my gosh, Patrick, you're being unfair and I can't believe you're doing this and coming from that.

00:47:03.560 And maybe you're not understanding on this and I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.

00:47:07.860 This is an entire game being played.

00:47:09.800 And then a year and a half later, everybody realized it was a game being played.

00:47:12.620 And this isn't just one instance.

00:47:14.060 This has happened multiple different times.

00:47:15.400 Here's the crazy thing.

00:47:16.600 These are good people.

00:47:17.540 And typically the part that I see for moralizers leads me to the chapter that you're talking about here next.

00:47:23.620 I think more passive aggressive, hardcore.

00:47:27.500 But the moralizers to me are people that are driven by envy.

00:47:32.620 That's the challenge for me with moralizers.

00:47:35.080 Most people that come from a place of moralizers are now willing to be that guy, Schopenhauer, the guy you're talking about who was a narcissist at the highest level and says,

00:47:45.100 rather than me being at a level 20 that you explained, kind of like the book Power Versus Force.

00:47:49.180 I don't know if you've read Power Versus Force.

00:47:50.540 I think you would love that book.

00:47:51.980 So rather than me, you know, trying to be this narcissist, I'm going to put all my energy into work and see what I can build.

00:47:57.460 And look what he did later on.

00:47:58.420 He was against nuclear, all this other stuff.

00:48:00.540 I think moralizers are not willing to put to work.

00:48:03.480 That's the challenge.

00:48:04.600 They want that same attention that some of these people get in their lives with the work, but they're frightened of putting the work in.

00:48:10.280 So let's talk about signs of envy, okay?

00:48:12.900 So again, I read this, and one of my favorite things you do in this book, it's like speaking to my father.

00:48:20.540 When I go up and I say, let me tell you what this person said.

00:48:23.360 Let me tell you what that person did.

00:48:24.280 Let me tell you what this person said.

00:48:25.440 And my dad would come back and says, but you did this.

00:48:29.020 But how about what you did?

00:48:30.640 But you caused this.

00:48:32.440 And then I'm like, how could you say that I'm your son?

00:48:35.420 But you did this.

00:48:36.940 Why are you only looking at it from your perspective?

00:48:38.800 Why are you thinking it's the other person?

00:48:41.180 There's a part of it that's on you as well.

00:48:42.700 And that's a tough place to be.

00:48:43.960 Good father.

00:48:44.340 Oh, he is.

00:48:45.360 So when I read signs of envy, it takes me back on every element of myself when I was being extremely lazy and somebody was passing me up.

00:48:54.420 And I had some signs where I'm like, oh my gosh, all this other stuff.

00:48:57.320 Like when I was in high school or certain ages of my life.

00:48:59.600 And I'm like, I realize how much of this can apply to everybody.

00:49:03.320 So here's what you talk about, signs of envy.

00:49:04.980 Poisonous praise, backbiting, the push-pull limit, right?

00:49:11.160 And then you go envious types, the leveler, which is sick.

00:49:15.460 I'm going to read the leveler.

00:49:17.140 You say the leveler is the following.

00:49:19.620 When you first meet them, levelers can seem rather entertaining and interesting.

00:49:24.560 They tend to have a wicked sense of humor.

00:49:27.020 They are good at putting down those who are powerful and deflating the pretensions.

00:49:31.660 They also seem to have a keen nose for injustice and unfairness in the world.

00:49:37.220 But where they differ from the people who are genuine empathy for underdogs is that levelers cannot recognize or appreciate excellence in almost anyone, particularly those who are alive.

00:49:48.700 They have delicate egos.

00:49:50.380 Those who have achieved things in life make them feel insecure.

00:49:53.200 They are highly sensitive to feelings and inferiority.

00:49:55.660 They envy, initially feel, and just when you explain levelers to me, it was like unbelievable.

00:50:02.620 What prompted you want to write about this?

00:50:05.000 That's one.

00:50:05.860 Second, how does one watching this who maybe secretly deals with envy, but they don't want to publicly talk about the fact they deal with it because it's one of the seven deadly sins envy, right?

00:50:16.360 How does one handle that?

00:50:17.900 How does one deal with that?

00:50:18.960 Handle one's own envy or from other people?

00:50:20.820 No, no, no.

00:50:21.580 Forget about other people.

00:50:22.720 So first, let's address my own.

00:50:24.640 I'm a moralizer, right?

00:50:26.840 I keep playing the card of, well, life is not all about this, you know, my connection and it's this, and I'm trying to be such a moralizer type of human being, right?

00:50:35.860 And these people are too ambitious and these people are too much about wanting all the attention.

00:50:40.800 And I don't.

00:50:41.400 I don't want a lot of attention.

00:50:42.360 Well, most people who are like that, there's no advice I can give them that's who they are.

00:50:46.600 They're locked into that.

00:50:47.860 There are certain people who I call envy or types who, because of their childhood, they feel that they always deserve more.

00:50:54.820 They're entitled to have more from people.

00:50:57.160 They feel like they are privileged somehow.

00:51:00.000 They're not willing to go out and do the work.

00:51:02.180 They want other people to give, give, give more.

00:51:04.860 Nothing's ever going to change them.

00:51:06.700 It's best that you recognize them and stay away from such types.

00:51:09.660 That's how you said that.

00:51:10.180 They can be very destructive.

00:51:11.240 In the end of that chapter, I have a, I have a section on how to use your own envy.

00:51:17.440 So the number first point is to recognize that you feel it, to not be in denial.

00:51:23.200 This book is about how you tend to be in denial.

00:51:26.140 Envy is one emotion that almost no one will ever admit to, because to admit to feeling envy is to admit that you feel inferior to another person.

00:51:35.300 We don't like to do that.

00:51:36.660 We want to feel superior.

00:51:37.740 So no one will ever admit that they acted out of envy.

00:51:41.680 You, Patrick, me, Robert, we have done things out of life out of envy.

00:51:46.660 It's natural.

00:51:47.340 It's human nature.

00:51:49.580 Chimpanzees, they've done studies.

00:51:51.040 Chimps and primates showed signs of envy.

00:51:54.480 What does it come from?

00:51:55.800 It comes from the fact that we're a social animal, and we're constantly comparing ourselves to others.

00:52:00.920 Does he have more than I do?

00:52:03.140 Is he getting more respect than I'm getting?

00:52:05.420 Is his car better than mine?

00:52:07.480 Does he have more perks and privileges than I'm getting?

00:52:10.580 How did he get into that university and I didn't?

00:52:13.080 We're all doing it.

00:52:14.420 Stop denying that it's happening.

00:52:15.860 It's how the brain functions.

00:52:17.020 Once you're aware that you actually feel envy and you're finally honest with yourself, then you can move beyond it.

00:52:23.660 Instead of constantly feeling envy for someone who's powerful, turn that into something competitive.

00:52:30.780 Instead of, like, being angry and deciding to sabotage them, why don't you work on becoming better than them?

00:52:36.820 Using the fact that you feel inferior to this person should impel you to excel, to become better than them.

00:52:43.560 So you're saying let the feeling of envy make you competitive to want to outdo and outcompete and outwork and outstrategize them.

00:52:49.320 Because you're not going to get rid of envy.

00:52:51.380 It's the silliest idea that you're going to somehow be Gandhi and you're not going to feel it.

00:52:55.640 You're going to feel it, but turn it into something productive and positive, you know, where you actually achieve something.

00:53:02.140 Yeah.

00:53:02.320 Instead of tearing people down and criticizing them and moralizing, build something and excel.

00:53:08.400 Use it as a force to make you competitive.

00:53:10.460 You always tend to compare yourself to people who are more powerful than you.

00:53:14.700 Why don't you look down on the scale and look at people who are less powerful than you and compare yourself to them so that you can begin to appreciate what you have.

00:53:23.700 You know, oh, he's got so much better parents than I do.

00:53:26.720 I wish I had a mother like that.

00:53:28.420 Well, look at your friend who had the worst kind of mother and feel appreciative of what you have.

00:53:33.800 It wasn't that bad.

00:53:35.160 So look at the other side and compare yourself to people who have it much worse than you.

00:53:39.900 And also, instead of feeling, there's a thing called schadenfreude, which is a form of envy, where if someone says that they've had a bad experience, it almost makes you feel happy inside.

00:53:53.600 You get joy from other people's pain.

00:53:55.740 If your friend doesn't get hired for a job, for a moment you feel almost kind of happy because it's...

00:54:02.480 What did you say that's called?

00:54:03.520 That's called schadenfreude.

00:54:04.620 Okay.

00:54:05.280 It's German for joy in pain, feeling joy in other people's pain.

00:54:10.160 It's a very big component of envy.

00:54:13.600 You like to read about other people's failings.

00:54:15.880 It's social media, what is the most popular subject, some powerful person who has a foible who fell.

00:54:22.240 Everyone loves it.

00:54:23.180 They feed off it.

00:54:23.900 It's a feeding frenzy.

00:54:25.460 That's schadenfreude.

00:54:26.800 Well, you want to have the opposite.

00:54:28.780 You want to develop what we call midfreude, which is if somebody has good news, you actually feel joy for them.

00:54:35.800 You don't feel pain, that you don't feel envious.

00:54:39.320 You actually share their joy.

00:54:41.580 You open up your spirit.

00:54:43.440 These are not easy.

00:54:44.720 They're not natural.

00:54:45.340 No way.

00:54:45.980 Phil Helm, you talked about that.

00:54:47.860 Phil Helm, you talked about how a guy...

00:54:49.200 Poker player.

00:54:49.600 Poker player.

00:54:50.220 Phil Helm, you talked about how a guy stole money from him.

00:54:53.260 And he sat there and started thinking about positive thoughts about the guy.

00:54:56.540 And eventually he ended up being able to have a relationship with this guy because he conditioned himself to start liking this guy rather than having resentment.

00:55:02.360 It was the hardest thing he had to overcome.

00:55:04.160 And then once he overcame that, then he ended up becoming the biggest bracelet winner.

00:55:07.140 He's got 15 of them now.

00:55:08.520 So that idea, what you're talking about, is easier said than done.

00:55:12.140 Extremely difficult.

00:55:12.780 But you brought up the right word, conditioning.

00:55:15.000 You can condition yourself and you can train yourself to feel differently.

00:55:19.160 So now let's talk about the other side.

00:55:20.740 So one is how to handle my own envy that I have for others.

00:55:23.320 How about when there's other people that are envious of my game and what I'm doing?

00:55:27.060 How do I handle that?

00:55:27.960 Because especially in a competitive world, when you come up...

00:55:31.540 I mean, I'm sure a lot of authors are not happy about the fact that every time you put an ink on paper, you sell a New York Times bestseller.

00:55:37.160 I'm sure a guy like you experienced that as well.

00:55:39.220 I get tons of envy.

00:55:40.720 So how do you handle it coming in as a person that's growing and doing bigger things in your life from friends, family, peers, competitors?

00:55:47.320 Well, first of all, you have to understand that that's what you're experiencing.

00:55:51.940 You know, people will disguise their envy.

00:55:55.820 They will criticize you.

00:55:58.140 They will say, oh, Patrick, you cheated your way to the top or you did this out of the other.

00:56:04.100 You got to where you are out of some unfair means or you don't really deserve your success.

00:56:10.140 And you won't recognize that as envy.

00:56:11.920 They may be more subtle with their criticisms.

00:56:14.400 You'll think that they're just being critical of you, but they're trying to be honest.

00:56:18.460 But in fact, they are feeling deep amount of envy.

00:56:21.980 So the problem is recognizing when envy is occurring.

00:56:26.320 Oftentimes, you don't recognize that that's what's going on.

00:56:29.140 You think that the people are just don't like you or criticizing you as opposed to the fact that they are envious of your success.

00:56:35.240 So half the game is to recognize that people are feeling this emotion and to not get dragged down onto their level.

00:56:43.360 The other thing is to recognize the types of people who are toxic enviers.

00:56:48.700 So everybody feels envy.

00:56:51.040 So if your assistant or somebody or colleague has a bitchy comment to you that hurts you and that you feel comes from envy,

00:57:01.620 it's probably best to just let it go by, to do the Phil Helmuth strategy and to not take it personally.

00:57:07.900 And to recognize that envy is like poison ivy.

00:57:11.480 It's out there.

00:57:12.400 It exists.

00:57:13.280 There's nothing you can do about it.

00:57:14.660 Everybody feels it.

00:57:15.860 Just accept it in some people.

00:57:17.500 But then there are the toxic types who are going to ruin your life.

00:57:22.020 They're going to become your partner or your friend in order to wound you.

00:57:26.340 They feel envy and their strategy is they're going to become your assistant or your colleague or your business partner or your wife.

00:57:34.520 That happens.

00:57:35.920 And they're going to end up trying to sabotage you and ruin you.

00:57:38.860 That's their strategy.

00:57:41.060 So you have to recognize people who are prone to feeling a lot of envy.

00:57:45.000 And I give you a kind of a code for finding it.

00:57:50.560 Give me a summary.

00:57:51.240 Give me a bit.

00:57:51.660 Because sometimes you have a blind spot, right?

00:57:53.640 Love creates blind spots, right?

00:57:56.680 Flattery creates blind spots, you know.

00:57:59.060 All of these things create blind spots.

00:58:00.540 So how do you, what do you look for?

00:58:03.020 Okay, well, on a very simple level, I have a chapter on nonverbal communication.

00:58:08.660 Very big on that because we humans communicate a lot through our body language.

00:58:12.740 Enviers will reveal themselves through what we call micro-expressions.

00:58:18.280 And I have a strategy in there that this philosopher advised.

00:58:21.880 If you tell somebody suddenly, you suspect that they're an envier and you tell them of some good news that has happened to you,

00:58:28.240 for a split second you will notice a slight frown on their face,

00:58:32.860 a slight sign of unpleasantness like they swallowed a lemon.

00:58:36.180 Then the skies with a smile.

00:58:37.720 I swear if you're aware of it, you'll see it.

00:58:40.960 On the other hand, if you tell them something bad happened,

00:58:45.140 oh, I got that, I didn't get that job, or I lost, you know, the mortgage in my house,

00:58:50.620 for a moment you'll detect a slight smile, a slight look of pleasure.

00:58:54.820 It only lasts for half a second.

00:58:57.180 There's a guy named Paul Ekman who writes about emotions,

00:59:00.100 and he's coined the expression micro-expressions,

00:59:03.920 and he literally can show you photographs of what they look like.

00:59:09.020 They're very fast and very,

00:59:10.620 because people can't help but feel a little bit of excitement when you tell them bad news,

00:59:15.000 or feel a little bit of pain when you tell them something good about yourselves,

00:59:18.900 but then they disguise it.

00:59:20.240 So that's one way.

00:59:21.640 Another way is that people are praising you,

00:59:24.540 and it's too effusive.

00:59:25.920 It doesn't feel justified.

00:59:28.320 It's like you've only known them for a week,

00:59:30.320 and they're saying,

00:59:30.800 God, Patrick, you are the greatest person I've ever met.

00:59:33.460 You're so wise.

00:59:35.740 It's not natural to say for people to be like that.

00:59:38.900 It's natural for us when we meet someone to be a little wary around them.

00:59:43.120 But if someone is suddenly praising you,

00:59:44.880 and it doesn't seem justified to anything that you've done or said,

00:59:47.900 they're probably disguising some envy.

00:59:50.420 So if you know somebody who tells you gossip,

00:59:53.480 gossipers are envy types.

00:59:56.460 So they share with you some gossip about somebody else in the business.

01:00:01.160 And it's okay.

01:00:01.780 Everybody gossips.

01:00:03.140 But if they do it a little too often,

01:00:05.060 or it's a little too strong,

01:00:06.920 a little too salacious,

01:00:08.220 they're probably at some point going to be gossiping about you.

01:00:11.880 And so that's a sure sign that they feel envy toward the people that they're trying to criticize.

01:00:16.880 This is why I say this.

01:00:18.380 Guys, you're watching.

01:00:20.160 First of all, you've got to order this book and read this entire book cover to cover.

01:00:22.540 I don't read his books.

01:00:24.260 I study his books.

01:00:25.300 I don't just read this guy's books.

01:00:27.040 In the world of business,

01:00:28.060 if you don't realize your number one product is people,

01:00:30.860 you're going to be left behind.

01:00:31.900 So go one more sign about the envy thing.

01:00:34.760 When somebody's doing it to you,

01:00:36.020 the whole thing you're talking about,

01:00:37.340 when you ask a question and say,

01:00:38.860 you won't believe what just happened in my life,

01:00:40.160 and we just had a big promotion to see that subtle half a second,

01:00:43.560 or my wife and I just had the worst argument ever.

01:00:46.800 I think things are going in the wrong direction,

01:00:48.800 and that subtle thing to see, right?

01:00:50.360 It could be a micro expression,

01:00:53.120 or it could also be where they go with you on that.

01:00:57.720 Now, I'm talking about you can actually test people's envy.

01:01:00.500 You go, my wife and I just had the worst argument.

01:01:03.520 She's such a bitch.

01:01:04.920 And then they go,

01:01:06.000 and they try and subtly make you feel even worse about your wife.

01:01:10.400 They're trying to sabotage you and destroy you.

01:01:13.180 Natural reaction for me,

01:01:14.520 if you said I had this terrible fight with my wife,

01:01:16.400 is I want to try and maybe help you repair it.

01:01:19.160 Get over it.

01:01:19.860 Deal with it.

01:01:20.620 This envier is going to want to make you feel worse,

01:01:23.280 and you're not going to recognize that that's what they're up to.

01:01:26.200 They're going to go,

01:01:26.840 God, your wife is such a bitch.

01:01:28.380 You really should think about leaving her,

01:01:30.360 even though you have children or whatever.

01:01:32.280 They're going to find,

01:01:33.100 oh, she was like that in that argument.

01:01:35.160 I saw her, and she was like this,

01:01:36.680 and she's worse than you think.

01:01:38.880 So it's not just the micro-expressions.

01:01:41.560 Fuel on fire.

01:01:42.360 It's what they do afterwards.

01:01:44.340 Or if you have some success,

01:01:46.220 it's not just the micro-expression.

01:01:48.160 They'll find a way of devaluing it.

01:01:50.080 So, for instance, for me personally,

01:01:52.340 I had friends who I suddenly had success with the 48 Laws of Power,

01:01:57.480 and they'll go,

01:01:59.060 boy, that book is sure making a lot of money.

01:02:02.260 And the implication was,

01:02:03.820 I mean, they said it differently,

01:02:04.840 was I wrote the book to make money.

01:02:06.820 You know, it's a put-down.

01:02:09.000 But they're coining it as kind of half praise, right?

01:02:14.280 Well, that's a sure sign,

01:02:15.820 because really what they're saying is,

01:02:17.760 you're just a soulless hack who wrote your book,

01:02:21.020 not because you believe in it,

01:02:22.580 but because you want to make money.

01:02:24.420 So those kind of comments that get under your skin,

01:02:27.320 that make you think about yourself,

01:02:29.520 and maybe I'm not so good,

01:02:31.060 is actually designed by the other.

01:02:33.120 We live in a culture...

01:02:34.400 Do you call it out?

01:02:35.300 Do you call it out when that happens,

01:02:37.840 or do you just kind of put it,

01:02:39.400 store it and say,

01:02:40.260 got it, move on?

01:02:42.020 95% of the time,

01:02:43.700 I store it and move on.

01:02:45.340 But sometimes I give them a comeback,

01:02:47.600 or I put it back on them,

01:02:49.600 and I sort of turn the tables.

01:02:51.300 Because I don't see you just taking it all the time.

01:02:53.320 Well, sometimes you can't help it,

01:02:55.420 take it.

01:02:55.940 It's like a friend,

01:02:57.340 or somebody you don't want to offend,

01:02:58.980 and there's no point in getting...

01:03:01.300 But I have my subtle digs,

01:03:02.900 my way of getting back at them.

01:03:04.880 You know, I don't take it all the time.

01:03:06.260 So, you know, here's what I did.

01:03:07.420 I had a person that we,

01:03:10.640 a long time ago, I worked with.

01:03:12.800 And every time we had some kind of good news,

01:03:16.080 it would be like,

01:03:17.120 hey, look at the email we just got.

01:03:18.360 This person wants to partner with us and do this.

01:03:20.200 Yeah, it's probably a fake email.

01:03:22.000 Oh, look at this other person.

01:03:23.040 They want to do this, this, this.

01:03:24.040 Ah, they probably would never do anything like that with you.

01:03:26.200 Sure sign of envy.

01:03:27.140 Yeah, and then you know what I realized?

01:03:28.440 I got together with a couple of my teammates,

01:03:29.860 and I said, listen, moving forward,

01:03:30.960 no good news goes to this person.

01:03:32.700 Yeah.

01:03:33.320 No good news goes to this person.

01:03:34.940 Just keep it,

01:03:36.080 we'll deal with it,

01:03:37.140 and we'll move on.

01:03:38.020 Because every time we share it,

01:03:39.180 there's negativity that comes back,

01:03:40.540 and we don't know where it's coming from.

01:03:41.900 It kind of adds up.

01:03:43.020 Last thing here.

01:03:44.600 You know, you and I, Robert,

01:03:45.960 we can sit down.

01:03:46.760 Two hours feels like five minutes,

01:03:48.220 and I don't even know what time goes by, right?

01:03:49.860 So, a couple weeks ago,

01:03:50.780 I'm in Argentina,

01:03:51.360 and I'm at this insurance conference,

01:03:53.380 and we're staying at this palace,

01:03:54.600 and it's a nice place,

01:03:55.480 Buenos Aires.

01:03:55.940 We're being spoiled and having a good time,

01:03:58.360 and all these CEOs of insurance companies

01:03:59.820 are over there.

01:04:01.060 And on one of the sessions,

01:04:03.060 they start asking about

01:04:05.380 working with millennials,

01:04:07.700 and how do you get insurance agents,

01:04:10.360 millennials to become insurance agents.

01:04:11.940 So, first of all, you have to realize,

01:04:12.960 life insurance is as boring as it gets.

01:04:14.720 You know, for us,

01:04:15.540 when we do what we do,

01:04:16.600 it's not the most exciting industry,

01:04:18.620 and it's been terrible,

01:04:19.640 because a lot of people don't know

01:04:20.740 how to connect with the next generation.

01:04:22.780 That's been the biggest challenge.

01:04:24.260 The industry is an insane industry.

01:04:27.040 More money is made in this industry,

01:04:28.620 and lives are changed,

01:04:29.320 because it's a great product.

01:04:30.560 Today, insurance carriers are making products

01:04:32.960 that a person can take advantage of

01:04:34.320 while you're alive.

01:04:35.580 So, doctor tells you,

01:04:36.680 you've got terminal illness,

01:04:37.600 or chronicle illness,

01:04:38.880 you had $600,000 life insurance policy,

01:04:41.100 now they're giving you the $600,000

01:04:42.720 to enjoy while you're alive,

01:04:43.960 before you die.

01:04:45.000 Things have innovated,

01:04:46.160 but they don't know how to connect

01:04:47.380 with the generations, right?

01:04:48.740 So, you study generations,

01:04:51.660 and you see what happens.

01:04:53.520 Boomers, Gen X, Millennials,

01:04:56.280 all these other things.

01:04:57.360 What are you seeing happening

01:04:59.100 with a certain spirit

01:05:00.380 that's with these generations

01:05:01.460 that we ought to pay attention to,

01:05:03.100 to be able to know

01:05:04.100 that the next generation needs this

01:05:05.220 so we can communicate with these guys?

01:05:06.680 What do we do with that?

01:05:07.640 People in a generation

01:05:08.860 are going to think differently

01:05:10.840 than you are thinking.

01:05:12.340 It's a natural process.

01:05:14.140 This goes back thousands of years.

01:05:16.400 The oldest recorded bit of history

01:05:19.680 on some tablets from Sumer,

01:05:23.920 like 9,000 years ago,

01:05:25.600 are these young people nowadays

01:05:27.620 are so worthless.

01:05:29.300 This is the worst generation.

01:05:30.940 They're going to make our country fall apart.

01:05:33.520 In other words,

01:05:34.360 the present generation

01:05:35.600 always thinks the previous generation

01:05:37.320 is screwed up,

01:05:38.440 not as smart,

01:05:39.300 not as together,

01:05:40.460 soft, whatever.

01:05:42.420 And I think that the older generation

01:05:44.720 is also problematic.

01:05:47.180 Everyone thinks

01:05:47.680 that their generation is superior.

01:05:49.740 So you want to be aware

01:05:50.900 of the fact that

01:05:51.580 if you're dealing with Millennials,

01:05:53.260 they're not inferior,

01:05:55.000 they're not superior,

01:05:55.940 they're just of a different generation.

01:05:58.120 It's like an animal

01:05:58.940 that evolved in a different way.

01:06:01.080 And so you want to be aware

01:06:02.340 of what makes their life different

01:06:03.840 and where their values come from.

01:06:06.320 If you're a Gen Xer,

01:06:07.800 you valued more than anything

01:06:09.520 individualism.

01:06:11.100 You grew up in that period

01:06:12.400 where your parents

01:06:13.600 were from the 60s generation

01:06:15.240 and they tended to not be

01:06:16.980 the best parents

01:06:17.900 and they often left you alone.

01:06:19.660 Now, yours might have been different,

01:06:20.980 but that was the culture

01:06:21.920 that we lived in.

01:06:23.760 So people in the Gen X generation,

01:06:25.500 and this has been proven by studies,

01:06:27.500 tended to be much value

01:06:28.980 individualism and self-reliance.

01:06:31.420 Millennials are not like that at all.

01:06:33.860 They grew up in the period of 9-11

01:06:35.880 and the crash of 2008.

01:06:38.720 They are very much more fearful about it.

01:06:41.520 They don't necessarily believe

01:06:43.240 that they control their own destiny.

01:06:45.640 They think that there are

01:06:46.360 a lot of forces out there

01:06:47.540 that they can't control,

01:06:49.240 particularly when it comes to

01:06:50.380 like Wall Street

01:06:51.180 and things like that.

01:06:52.540 And so they're very wary

01:06:53.540 and they're not so appealing

01:06:55.260 to them as an individual,

01:06:56.720 as a kind of a Gen Xer,

01:06:57.860 will fall on deaf ears.

01:06:59.820 They're much more attuned

01:07:00.940 to the social realm,

01:07:03.000 to being around other people,

01:07:04.360 to causes.

01:07:05.580 Millennials are really big on causes.

01:07:07.640 So you have to know their spirit

01:07:09.440 and know that if you're going to

01:07:10.880 try to appeal to them

01:07:11.940 and sell life insurance,

01:07:13.500 you're going to have to approach them

01:07:14.660 from a totally different angle

01:07:16.360 than you approach somebody

01:07:17.740 who's a boomer or a Gen Xer.

01:07:19.380 You have to adapt to their spirit

01:07:20.880 and not feel superior to them.

01:07:23.060 So I explain in the book

01:07:25.120 how you kind of create a profile

01:07:27.100 of that generation.

01:07:28.860 There are also great books

01:07:29.760 written about millennials

01:07:31.140 so that you can get to understand them

01:07:32.840 and get out of yourself

01:07:34.360 and out of your way of thinking.

01:07:35.720 They don't think the way

01:07:37.560 that you and I think.

01:07:39.780 When I grew up,

01:07:40.980 the first thing I wanted to do

01:07:42.320 was leave my parents' house

01:07:43.580 when I was 18,

01:07:44.380 get the hell out of the house

01:07:45.560 and be on my own in college

01:07:47.360 and have everything for myself.

01:07:49.820 Millennials don't think that way.

01:07:51.420 They like to stay at home.

01:07:52.600 They're living in their house

01:07:53.520 until they're 28, 30 years old.

01:07:55.600 They're afraid of independence.

01:07:58.460 They don't want to own a car

01:07:59.760 because it's going to bring them down.

01:08:01.800 It's going to make them more dependent.

01:08:03.440 They're afraid of that.

01:08:04.160 That's not a moral judgment.

01:08:06.500 And I, if I were a millennial,

01:08:07.660 I would probably be the same way.

01:08:09.300 It's just different.

01:08:10.660 They have other positive traits

01:08:12.200 besides that they're more community-oriented

01:08:14.600 than a lot of people

01:08:15.420 from my generation or Gen Xers.

01:08:17.580 But you have to recognize

01:08:18.920 what makes them different

01:08:20.000 and not come at them

01:08:20.940 from your moralizing perspective.

01:08:23.760 It's so amazing you say that

01:08:25.040 because Chip Wilson two days ago

01:08:26.380 said the following.

01:08:27.140 He said,

01:08:27.820 I said,

01:08:28.400 your ideal customer,

01:08:29.620 you are so specific on who it is.

01:08:31.700 After researching this guy.

01:08:32.880 It's a 32-year-old woman

01:08:35.120 born on September 28th

01:08:37.040 who owns a cat,

01:08:38.540 isn't married,

01:08:39.440 takes care of her health,

01:08:40.380 but is thinking about getting married,

01:08:42.080 but she doesn't have to.

01:08:43.560 That's his ideal customer.

01:08:45.620 And the moment he understood,

01:08:46.540 that's his customer.

01:08:48.220 And the moment he identified that

01:08:50.160 to understand how socially

01:08:51.700 we're changing all these things

01:08:52.960 and listening to everybody

01:08:53.940 talking about yoga,

01:08:54.920 health,

01:08:55.160 all these things,

01:08:56.240 he saw how things are changing

01:08:57.680 and he capitalized on it.

01:08:59.680 I think it's important

01:09:00.380 to know generationally.

01:09:01.740 One time,

01:09:02.480 Time Magazine did an article,

01:09:03.660 I think two and a half years ago,

01:09:04.680 it was titled,

01:09:05.220 The Narcissistic Generation.

01:09:07.180 And he said,

01:09:08.060 you know,

01:09:08.520 the millennials are this,

01:09:10.040 his dad is this,

01:09:10.820 six pages,

01:09:11.380 he's saying all this other stuff.

01:09:12.660 But then at the end it says,

01:09:14.200 if you are saying

01:09:15.820 that this generation is lazy,

01:09:18.460 they don't appreciate this,

01:09:19.340 they don't appreciate this,

01:09:21.080 all you're saying is

01:09:21.960 that you're getting older.

01:09:23.260 Because at one point,

01:09:24.420 you were like them.

01:09:25.320 And I thought it was a great ending

01:09:26.820 to an article with Time Magazine.

01:09:28.020 So, again, Robert,

01:09:29.840 you and I can talk for hours

01:09:31.120 and I think everybody

01:09:33.000 ought to read this book.

01:09:34.580 And if you haven't watched

01:09:35.580 the first sit down Robert and I did

01:09:37.820 that had to do with

01:09:38.500 40 Laws of Power

01:09:39.500 and 33 Strategies of War,

01:09:41.440 I highly recommend you

01:09:42.860 to go watch that interview as well

01:09:44.040 because it'll go a different direction

01:09:45.420 than we went with his prior books

01:09:47.020 that he's read.

01:09:47.500 I think you don't need

01:09:48.220 to just order one book.

01:09:49.220 I think whoever that's

01:09:50.000 a true valutainer,

01:09:51.380 go order those five books,

01:09:53.000 every single one of them.

01:09:54.420 Mastery,

01:09:54.880 33 Strategies,

01:09:56.260 48 Laws,

01:09:56.800 Art of Seduction,

01:09:58.080 and this one,

01:09:58.940 50th Law is a book

01:09:59.840 I know you'll like a lot,

01:10:00.820 but I'm talking entrepreneurs.

01:10:02.520 Those five,

01:10:03.240 I recommend you order

01:10:03.960 every single one of them

01:10:04.700 slowly but surely

01:10:05.240 start reading them.

01:10:06.300 Having said that,

01:10:07.420 brother,

01:10:07.840 thank you so much

01:10:08.680 for your time.

01:10:09.180 Truly.

01:10:09.540 Thanks so much.

01:10:10.100 Really enjoyed it.

01:10:10.600 Yes, thank you.

01:10:11.820 Thanks everybody for listening

01:10:12.960 and by the way,

01:10:13.520 if you haven't already

01:10:14.140 subscribed to Valuetainment

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01:10:16.460 please do so.

01:10:17.700 Give us a five star,

01:10:19.000 write a review

01:10:19.640 if you haven't already

01:10:20.440 and if you have any questions

01:10:21.580 for me that you may have,

01:10:22.780 you can always find me

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01:10:32.500 on Instagram.

01:10:33.540 With that being said,

01:10:34.220 have a great day today.

01:10:35.260 Take care everybody.

01:10:35.980 Bye bye.

01:10:40.600 Bye bye.

01:10:43.540 Definitely.

01:10:44.700 Bye bye.

01:10:47.120 Bye bye.

01:10:49.480 Bye bye.

01:10:50.820 Bye bye.

01:10:51.620 Bye bye.

01:10:52.200 Bye bye.

01:10:52.420 Bye bye.

01:10:53.820 Bye bye.

01:10:54.180 Bye bye.

01:10:54.780 Bye bye.

01:10:56.080 Bye bye.

01:10:56.480 Bye bye.

01:10:56.980 Bye bye.

01:10:57.560 Bye bye.

01:10:58.520 Bye bye.

01:10:58.660 Bye bye.

01:10:58.880 Bye bye.

01:10:58.900 Bye bye.

01:10:59.720 Bye bye.

01:11:01.480 Bye bye.

01:11:01.540 Bye bye bye.

01:11:01.780 Bye bye.

01:11:01.880 Bye bye.

01:11:02.480 Bye bye bye.

01:11:02.540 Bye bye.

01:11:03.220 Bye bye.

01:11:03.860 Bye bye bye.

01:11:04.420 Bye bye bye.

01:11:04.860 Bye bye bye.

01:11:05.980 Bye bye bye.

01:11:06.320 bye bye bye.

Valuetainment - December 17, 2018

Episode 232： Laws of Human Nature Dissected by Robert Greene

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