Valuetainment - Episode 263： Highest Paid Mafia Boss Tells the TRUTH About the Life

00:00:00.000 If you go on YouTube right now and type in the word mafia, you're either going to come up with the first or the second one.

00:00:21.740 No matter what part of the world you're in, my sit down with Michael Franzese, it's over 3.5 million views.

00:00:26.320 It became a phenomenon after we did the sit down because of how detailed he told the stories.

00:00:31.000 A lot of people said, this man reminds me of Michael Corleone from the movie Godfather.

00:00:35.740 You'll know why once you listen to this podcast.

00:00:38.420 Michael, I have to tell you, you're one of the most fascinating people that I've been looking forward to sitting down with.

00:00:45.680 And you had Nicky Eyes.

00:00:47.560 What's up, guy?

00:00:49.160 And Mikey Franzese.

00:00:50.760 I know that guy, yeah, I want to see him.

00:00:52.000 When you hear about the modern day, not even a modern day, you know the movie Godfather, everybody has the poster.

00:00:58.240 And you watch the movie and you hear about Michael Corleone and you think, is there really a character like that?

00:01:04.420 You pretty much are the real life Michael Corleone per se of that story, right?

00:01:10.580 So, it's exciting to be sitting out with you.

00:01:13.580 Appreciate you for making the time and welcoming us to your place here.

00:01:18.300 Well, thank you.

00:01:19.400 Yeah, and I have been compared, obviously, to Michael.

00:01:23.280 I think it's a good comparison at times because Al Pacino, he played a terrific role in that movie.

00:01:29.120 Yeah, and there is a certain flow that I watch in the movie with him and I see with you where the mannerisms, it's amazing how close that is with the mannerisms that you have on the way you speak.

00:01:42.440 So, let's get right into it.

00:01:43.860 If you don't know Michael Franzese, let me give you some stats.

00:01:47.060 Here's the best way to open it up so you'll know who we're sitting down with.

00:01:51.340 So, in 1986, Fortune Magazine, November 10th, Fortune Magazine does an article saying the 50 biggest mafia bosses, right?

00:02:02.000 And when you go through this, the part in here that's fascinating to me is the following.

00:02:08.860 They have you down on 18th place, right?

00:02:11.980 And then they had John Gotti at 13.

00:02:14.920 So, you look at this and you say, well, you're 18, Gotti is 13, and then you have Anthony Salerno at first,

00:02:21.100 and you have some of these other names, Persico, Carmine Persico, who you worked with very closely for many years,

00:02:25.820 Salvatore, Santora, some of these names that people know about.

00:02:29.080 The part that I looked at, Michael, there's not a single person on this list where their age starts with the number three except for you.

00:02:38.320 Gotti was 46, you were 35.

00:02:41.740 So, we're not just talking about somebody who made it to the high level of the Colombo family, the five families, the Colombo family yourself.

00:02:48.260 You did it at 35 years old.

00:02:50.160 How was it being raised into that environment and that family?

00:02:54.080 I would say I had a good role model as far as, you know, my dad being a real person of substance in that life.

00:03:02.760 And, you know, I love my father.

00:03:04.400 He was everything to me growing up.

00:03:07.380 And, you know, he was an important figure there.

00:03:09.760 And it's not that I tried to emulate him, Patrick, because I never thought I would be part of that life growing up.

00:03:15.600 You know, I had different thoughts.

00:03:16.860 I was going to, you know, I was an athlete.

00:03:18.380 I was going to school.

00:03:19.160 I was going to be a doctor.

00:03:20.000 But once I made the decision to get into that life, I had, as far as I was concerned, the best guy in the world to model myself after.

00:03:28.500 And that was my dad.

00:03:29.680 I learned a lot from him.

00:03:31.260 Directly watching all the things that was taking place.

00:03:33.480 Yeah, just the way he carried himself, you know, the way people respected him, the respect that he had for my mother and my sisters, and just the way he carried himself, you know.

00:03:43.860 And he was a man's man.

00:03:45.640 And, you know, from the time I was five years old, my father drummed it into my head, you know, Michael, you have to be a man's man.

00:03:51.300 That's the standard in life you have to live up to.

00:03:54.340 He, in many ways, formed the person that I became later on in life.

00:03:58.020 He had so much street credit that you can tell if somebody did something to you and they knew who your dad was, there was a line.

00:04:04.200 Like, you couldn't mess with it.

00:04:05.320 How was it being raised in that environment?

00:04:07.580 Well, it was different.

00:04:08.400 You know, I always tell the story.

00:04:10.180 I was an athlete, and baseball was really my sport.

00:04:13.760 And my dad would never miss a game, no matter what he was doing.

00:04:17.060 Mob business, legit business.

00:04:18.360 I'd be playing ball, he'd show up.

00:04:19.920 He'd always come to the field late, and he'd pull up in a big black Cadillac or a black Lincoln.

00:04:24.360 He'd get out of the car, dress sharp in a suit.

00:04:26.440 And he'd always have five or six guys with him, because he never traveled alone.

00:04:30.420 And I'd be up to bat, and they'd walk out on the field, and the umpire would take one look at him and never call strike three on me.

00:04:36.280 So, I mean, it had his advantages, you know, being Sonny Francis' son.

00:04:40.080 You know, he was just a great father, you know.

00:04:42.840 And obviously, I knew there was something different about him, but my dad never spoke about it in the house.

00:04:47.800 Really?

00:04:48.360 Never.

00:04:48.780 So, you didn't really know fully what was taking place?

00:04:51.300 Never from him.

00:04:53.000 I knew because he was such a high-profile figure that we lived in an environment where law enforcement was around us all the time.

00:05:00.500 And he was under surveillance from five or six different agencies, from the feds right down to all the state and locals.

00:05:06.760 So, they would park cars around our house and follow us wherever we went.

00:05:10.020 And, you know, I viewed them at that time as the enemy, because I viewed my dad as my hero.

00:05:15.120 And so, I knew who he was.

00:05:16.680 I obviously read the papers.

00:05:18.080 He had a lot of press.

00:05:20.140 And I observed things, but never from his mouth.

00:05:23.380 He would never bring it into the house.

00:05:25.540 In the house, we were just a family.

00:05:27.640 That didn't exist.

00:05:28.740 Isn't that interesting?

00:05:29.480 Yeah.

00:05:29.860 There are six areas I'd like to touch upon here with you.

00:05:32.800 One is a story on how that life was, two, how the game, because you wrote a book, I'll Make You An Offer, You Cannot Refuse, the game between what you had to experience and how similar that is on the corporate side.

00:05:43.940 I think there's a lot to be learned from the entrepreneurs who watch this.

00:05:47.920 How to identify a conciliary?

00:05:49.900 I really want to stay on that because what it means to be a conciliary, how do you identify it?

00:05:53.840 It's a very fascinating way you talk about it in the book.

00:05:58.300 Human nature, you know, how do you read through the BS and how do you read through some people that are trying to take advantage of you?

00:06:05.500 What are some of the things that you saw?

00:06:08.160 And then some side questions about characters and then some fun questions at the end that we'll go through.

00:06:12.680 So, why don't we get into it as far as when you knew and you said, I want to get in, how did you get into the whole, you know, family?

00:06:23.220 I want to become a made man.

00:06:25.080 How did that whole experience take place with you?

00:06:27.200 You know, Patrick, I never aspired to be a made man.

00:06:31.500 You know, I was on a different path in life.

00:06:33.980 But I was 17 years old when my dad drew a 50-year prison sentence and went off to serve his federal time.

00:06:42.320 And I sat with my dad.

00:06:44.020 I visited him in the federal jail before they shipped him off to the penitentiary.

00:06:48.600 And he said to me, Michael, I'm innocent.

00:06:50.740 I didn't commit this crime.

00:06:51.880 He was alleged to have masterminded a nationwide string of bank robbers.

00:06:55.220 He said, I never knew the witnesses.

00:06:57.200 I'm not a bank robber.

00:06:58.520 The witnesses were all drug addicts, junkies.

00:07:00.660 And one thing I knew, my dad hated anything to do with drugs.

00:07:04.080 My whole life he preached against her.

00:07:05.640 He would make up stories about drug addicts to scare me never to take drugs.

00:07:09.660 So, I knew he would never bother with people like this.

00:07:11.640 So, I believed him.

00:07:12.340 And when he went away, Joe Colombo, the boss of our family, who we were close with, he kind of took me under his wing because my dad was his underboss.

00:07:20.520 And I started to meet a lot more of my dad's friends, you know, and they were influencing me.

00:07:24.360 Mike, you know, what are you doing going to school?

00:07:25.980 I was a pre-med student at that time, shortly after that.

00:07:29.820 You know, if you don't help your father out, he's going to die in prison.

00:07:32.920 So, I went to see him in Leavenworth and I said, Dad, I'm not going to school.

00:07:35.860 You're going to die in here if I don't help you.

00:07:37.500 He didn't want that.

00:07:38.520 I mean, he kind of argued, no, I want you to go to school, get an education.

00:07:41.420 I said, Dad, it's too late.

00:07:42.360 My mind is made up.

00:07:43.760 And he said to me, he said, if you're going to be on the street, then I want you on the street the right way.

00:07:48.180 In his mind, the right way was to become a member of his life.

00:07:51.280 And he proposed me at that point for membership into the life.

00:07:54.780 And you know the interesting thing, Pat?

00:07:56.640 My father, even at that point, never told me what the life was about.

00:08:01.120 He said, you know, you're not supposed to talk about that life with anybody outside of it.

00:08:05.140 And he wouldn't violate that policy, even with me, his own son.

00:08:07.980 My dad's a good soldier.

00:08:09.540 He just said, go home, somebody will be in touch with you, do whatever you're told.

00:08:12.680 It was kind of on-the-job training.

00:08:14.820 And two weeks later, I sat with the boss and, you know, he ran things down for me and told me what to expect.

00:08:21.080 And for the next year and a half, I was kind of a recruit where I kind of learned the life,

00:08:25.440 how to do anything I was told to do to prove myself worthy.

00:08:28.020 And then Halloween night, 1975, is when I was formally inducted into that life.

00:08:34.080 You remembered vividly?

00:08:35.680 Vividly, yeah.

00:08:36.580 And how was, what was that process like?

00:08:38.220 Was there a ritual?

00:08:39.120 Was there an experience you had to go through?

00:08:41.040 Very, very solemn ceremony, very serious.

00:08:44.180 Six of us walked into a room individually towards midnight that night.

00:08:47.900 It was a very secure setting, obviously.

00:08:49.720 I walked into a room.

00:08:51.160 The boss was seated at the head of like a horseshoe configuration, the underboss in the consulary area to his left and right.

00:08:56.320 And all of our capital regimes are captains, are alongside of them.

00:09:00.200 And I walked down the aisle, stood in front of the boss.

00:09:02.660 I held out my hand.

00:09:03.500 He took a knife right here, cut my finger.

00:09:05.620 Some blood dropped on the floor.

00:09:06.860 This is a blood oath.

00:09:08.160 I cupped my hands.

00:09:09.220 He took a picture of a saint, Catholic altar card, put it on my hands and lit it a flame.

00:09:13.800 It didn't hurt.

00:09:14.420 It burned quickly.

00:09:15.360 It was just symbolic.

00:09:16.680 And he said, tonight, Michael Francis, you are born again into a new life into La Cosa Nostra, this thing of ours.

00:09:22.900 Violate what you know about this life.

00:09:24.680 Betray your brothers and you will die and burn in hell like the saint is burning in your hands.

00:09:29.860 Do you accept?

00:09:30.840 Yes, I do.

00:09:31.900 And that's it.

00:09:32.840 That's the ritual.

00:09:34.100 That's short and sweet, but extremely serious.

00:09:37.700 Now, there were six of you.

00:09:39.600 Six of us.

00:09:40.260 We went in individually.

00:09:41.400 You take it alone.

00:09:42.380 Got it.

00:09:43.900 And then out of these six, apparently, you're the only one that's alive.

00:09:47.520 They're all dead.

00:09:48.440 They're all dead.

00:09:49.560 Not one of them died in natural causes.

00:09:51.280 Every one of them were murdered.

00:09:52.600 Wow.

00:09:53.660 So why are you still here?

00:09:56.080 You know, because if you read the story and you put yourself out there, it's not like you went and you ratted people out or you became an informant.

00:10:05.000 There's nothing there that people will say.

00:10:07.460 Even some of the guys that were upset that you stepped away, they don't call you informant.

00:10:12.120 They just say, you know, it's impressive to see that he was able to make it and we're proud of him.

00:10:16.300 Even some of your enemies are saying good things about you.

00:10:19.300 How was that process for you?

00:10:21.440 You never hear somebody survive when they leave the family.

00:10:24.320 How did that happen with you?

00:10:25.700 Well, you know, Patrick, I didn't have any grand plan because there's no blueprint to walk away from that life, not enter a program and survive.

00:10:34.440 And, you know, I'm only saying this because it's a fact.

00:10:37.860 I don't know of anybody else that has done that successfully, especially at the level that I reached because I was at a pretty high level.

00:10:44.040 You know, I didn't know how it was going to work out.

00:10:45.920 I knew that when I walked away, people are going to be very upset.

00:10:49.680 You don't walk away from that life.

00:10:50.960 You're not allowed to renounce it.

00:10:52.700 And I had a lot of trouble as a result.

00:10:55.200 But, you know, for me, there's two sides of this.

00:10:57.960 There's a spiritual side, obviously.

00:10:59.660 I'm a person of faith.

00:11:00.660 And the bottom line for me is I believe God had a different plan and a purpose for my life.

00:11:04.840 And over the past 20 years, I've seen more evidence of that.

00:11:08.680 And I'm very secure with that.

00:11:10.400 It's God's plan.

00:11:11.560 But aside from that, you know, I realized that God never throws you into the fire without preparing you first.

00:11:17.400 So I spent 20 years in that life at a very high level.

00:11:20.280 And I was a good student of the life.

00:11:22.120 I observed and I watched.

00:11:23.460 And I reached a certain level there.

00:11:25.900 So I knew I had to make changes.

00:11:28.240 You know, one of the horrors about that life, and I don't know if you know this, but you might be in trouble, in serious trouble.

00:11:34.360 Your best friend walks you into a room.

00:11:36.140 You don't walk out again.

00:11:37.660 And unfortunately, I've experienced that in my life with other people.

00:11:41.140 And so I said, okay, they're not going to walk me into a room.

00:11:45.260 They're going to have to work to get me.

00:11:47.060 I move out of New York.

00:11:48.720 I would have never made it to New York.

00:11:50.700 I move way out across the country to California.

00:11:52.900 And it's one thing to try to walk somebody into a room.

00:11:55.220 It's another thing to send a hit squad to try to get somebody who knows what's going on.

00:12:00.960 And I never put a house in my name, no utilities.

00:12:04.060 I never went to any nightclubs.

00:12:06.720 Bad place for me.

00:12:07.560 I know who hangs out there.

00:12:09.000 Somebody sees me.

00:12:10.040 They make a call to New York.

00:12:11.220 They want to be a hero.

00:12:12.020 I walk in the parking lot.

00:12:13.160 Boom, I'm gone.

00:12:13.860 I stopped creating patterns in my life.

00:12:17.020 I never went to the same restaurant every Tuesday night.

00:12:19.520 I never walked my dog every morning at 7 o'clock.

00:12:22.320 So if somebody was scoping me, they had a tough time in figuring out where I was.

00:12:26.820 And I was very disciplined in that.

00:12:28.300 Very disciplined.

00:12:29.080 Because I never sell my former associates short.

00:12:31.780 There's very capable guys there.

00:12:33.920 And then what happened, I just outlasted everybody.

00:12:38.020 I mean, who went to jail?

00:12:39.300 Who got killed?

00:12:39.880 We had a big war in our family in the early 90s.

00:12:42.220 About 13 guys got killed.

00:12:44.200 Another 20 or something went to jail for life.

00:12:46.380 And I just outlasted everybody.

00:12:48.040 And you know, the major thing for me was that I never testified against anybody.

00:12:52.560 I didn't send anybody to prison.

00:12:54.440 I didn't put anybody in trouble.

00:12:56.120 Had I done that, it would have been a lot worse.

00:12:58.240 It would have been a lot worse.

00:12:59.400 Because some people had personal feelings against me.

00:13:03.080 Because when I left, you know, look, I was making a lot of money.

00:13:05.480 A lot of people were earning with me.

00:13:07.160 And when you shut that off, people get upset.

00:13:09.320 And they resented that.

00:13:10.600 You know, especially my boss at the time.

00:13:12.580 But the fact that I didn't hurt anybody over a period of time, that really went in my favor.

00:13:18.120 And listen, you know, there's no guarantees.

00:13:21.380 You know, I'm still careful when I go to certain places.

00:13:23.700 Still till today?

00:13:24.340 Oh yeah.

00:13:24.740 Really?

00:13:25.580 So the level of paranoia is not gone?

00:13:27.720 It's not paranoia.

00:13:28.720 You know, it's not a macho thing.

00:13:30.620 I don't want you to think that.

00:13:31.720 But I just feel very secure.

00:13:34.180 But, you know, look, God doesn't tell you to be stupid.

00:13:37.160 I can't go back to Brooklyn and say, hey guys, I'm moving back into the neighborhood.

00:13:40.520 You know, it would be like thumbing my nose in their face.

00:13:42.880 So I don't do that.

00:13:44.220 But, you know, listen, I'm a speaker.

00:13:46.500 I'm out in front of thousands of people every week.

00:13:48.880 I've signed books for hundreds of people.

00:13:50.480 I don't know who's on that book line.

00:13:52.100 You know, you never know.

00:13:53.300 You know, I'm not a kid anymore.

00:13:54.540 You know, God has blessed me with good things in my life.

00:13:58.160 And I think I'll be around for a while longer.

00:14:00.460 But if not, I mean, what could you do?

00:14:01.840 I mean, that's how I look at things.

00:14:03.960 It seems, Michael, that you're very resolved.

00:14:07.000 I mean, when speaking to you, there's none of it that you're uncomfortable, which is fascinating.

00:14:12.160 But talking about numbers, I don't know if everybody really knows what kind of numbers you were bringing in.

00:14:18.000 The numbers I read about, you were making six to eight mil a week, six to eight million per week.

00:14:24.100 And you were selling a half a billion dollars of gas per month.

00:14:28.920 And they said you are the highest moneymaker, mafia boss outside of Al Capone.

00:14:35.040 I mean, there's a lot of people that are making money with you.

00:14:37.800 How did that happen?

00:14:38.960 People think that mob guys sit around in their social clubs and we start to target different businesses.

00:14:45.380 Well, we're going to take that over.

00:14:46.400 We're going to do this.

00:14:47.440 Normally, it doesn't happen that way.

00:14:49.220 What happens is people come to us.

00:14:51.220 People would come to me with all sorts of deals.

00:14:53.800 And it was mostly guys that came inside their company that had a way to make some money.

00:14:58.040 And they figured they can do it with me.

00:14:59.440 I can protect them.

00:15:00.280 I can finance them.

00:15:01.200 We have strength.

00:15:01.940 You know, all that.

00:15:02.980 And that's how this happened in the gas business.

00:15:04.680 Some guy came to me at a very small gasoline operation.

00:15:08.980 And he said, you know, I have a way to defraud the government out of tax on every gallon of gasoline.

00:15:13.700 It was attractive to me because at that time I didn't like the government.

00:15:17.400 And, you know, my targets back then were always bigger companies.

00:15:21.640 I didn't go after small.

00:15:22.860 The list of companies I see, I'm like, you didn't go after small.

00:15:26.460 No, I didn't go after small.

00:15:27.520 I figured the ones that can afford it, no problem.

00:15:30.540 And the government was a huge company.

00:15:33.000 So what happened, he had a couple of other wise guys that were kind of trying to extort him in his business.

00:15:39.280 And I was able to solve that for him.

00:15:42.100 And then we went into business together.

00:15:43.840 And I'll tell you how it happened.

00:15:45.280 I put somebody with him because I didn't know him that well.

00:15:47.800 And I said, I'm going to put this fellow with you.

00:15:49.580 We're going to see exactly what you got going on.

00:15:51.760 And we'll try to figure this out.

00:15:53.700 Well, the guy I put with him was a butcher.

00:15:55.600 He was my butcher.

00:15:56.640 Big guy.

00:15:57.340 He had a scar across the top of his head.

00:15:59.180 Big Vinny, we called him.

00:16:00.260 So he's coming to him.

00:16:01.060 Every Saturday he would bring meat to my house, right?

00:16:04.320 So this Saturday he pulls up and he's got this big box on his shoulder.

00:16:08.300 And I said, what are you doing with all that meat?

00:16:10.120 Are we having a party or something?

00:16:11.280 I don't know about it.

00:16:12.040 He says, hey, chief, it ain't meat.

00:16:14.020 I said, what is it?

00:16:14.760 He said, come on in the kitchen.

00:16:15.840 We go in the kitchen.

00:16:16.520 He puts the box down.

00:16:18.160 He opens it up.

00:16:19.340 $280,000.

00:16:21.120 He said, that's the first week's take in the gas business.

00:16:25.640 And long story short, he really got my attention at that point.

00:16:29.420 I grew that $280,000 into at times almost $8 million a week.

00:16:35.060 We bring it per week.

00:16:36.220 Per week, yeah.

00:16:37.620 And basically, you know, devised a scheme, built upon what that little germ of an idea that he had.

00:16:43.240 And we were defrauding the government out of tax on every gallon of gasoline.

00:16:47.300 It was $0.20 to $0.40, depending where you were located.

00:16:50.320 The government couldn't figure it out.

00:16:51.940 We had a very efficient scheme put together.

00:16:54.380 They just couldn't figure it out.

00:16:55.720 We were always one step ahead of them.

00:16:57.200 And is this part of the whole RICO story, which was, you know, kind of linked to that where corporation after corporation after corporation.

00:17:06.400 And then the last one, he would file a bankruptcy.

00:17:08.400 And this was figured out on how to avoid paying the taxes, which allowed you to kind of compete against your marketplace.

00:17:14.800 So you had guys that were buying a million gallons, all of a sudden they're buying two, three.

00:17:19.180 Then they're doing 10 million gallons from you.

00:17:21.620 And you're one of the biggest vendors to them.

00:17:24.100 Patrick, we would...

00:17:24.920 And you're not even Middle Eastern or from Texas.

00:17:27.020 You know, you're Italian doing this.

00:17:28.540 I had probably 300 gas stations.

00:17:30.600 We had branded and unbranded stations.

00:17:32.740 And what we would do is, let's say it was a mobile station.

00:17:35.240 I'm just picking that out because we dealt with all of them.

00:17:37.680 And we go to a station and say, how much are you paying for a gallon of gas?

00:17:40.340 They say, oh, I'm paying a dollar.

00:17:41.540 How would you like to pay 95 cents?

00:17:43.500 Now, five cents is a big saving for you.

00:17:45.620 I said, great.

00:17:46.360 I said, I'll tell you what you do.

00:17:47.540 How many gallons, how many loads a week are you getting from mobile?

00:17:50.480 Oh, we're getting six.

00:17:51.580 All right.

00:17:52.160 Buy three from them, buy three from us.

00:17:53.860 We'll deliver in the middle of the night.

00:17:55.180 We'll save you that.

00:17:56.140 By the end of the day, they wanted us to service them all.

00:18:00.060 They didn't want to buy anything from mobile anymore.

00:18:01.680 I said, you can't do that.

00:18:02.640 You've got to keep your brand.

00:18:03.940 Nobody can compete with us.

00:18:05.240 And if we bought a couple of gas stations, like I remember one incident, there were four

00:18:09.940 gas stations on a corner, big ones.

00:18:12.280 We bought one of them.

00:18:13.580 And I went to the other three and I said, now, here's the deal.

00:18:16.740 I said, I'm going to be the lowest guy on a corner.

00:18:19.280 I said, if you sell for 95, I'm going to sell for 92.

00:18:22.660 If you sell for 92, I'm going to go down to 80 until I put you all out of business.

00:18:26.880 So let's keep it at a certain level and we don't have to compete.

00:18:29.300 You told them that.

00:18:29.960 So there was a regulated number that we're doing with, so no one's.

00:18:32.440 I said, if you guys stay at this number, you'll be fine.

00:18:35.480 If you try to compete with me, I'm going to knock you out because you can't compete with

00:18:39.180 me.

00:18:39.840 And pretty soon they were all buying from me anyway.

00:18:41.820 There'll never be anything like that again.

00:18:43.820 I don't know if I read this or I saw you talk about it, where one of the guys you did business

00:18:47.720 with, was this the oil guy who for eight years tracked everything that you were doing, who

00:18:52.580 was actually the guy that ended up becoming the informant that gave the information that, you

00:18:57.780 know, stopped the entire operation?

00:18:58.980 Yeah, he was my partner.

00:19:00.480 He's passed away now.

00:19:01.880 We never had an ill word in seven years that we were together.

00:19:05.740 My kids called him Uncle Larry.

00:19:07.580 His kids called me Uncle Michael.

00:19:09.480 But the whole time I was his meal ticket because he knew if he ever got in trouble that I was

00:19:15.080 the guy that they would want.

00:19:16.260 So he kept a diary on me.

00:19:18.720 He testified against me in one case, a big case where Rudy Giuliani indicted me, and I

00:19:23.520 was acquitted.

00:19:24.260 So the jury still didn't believe him.

00:19:25.940 You're making all the family's money now.

00:19:28.560 They're all kind of happy about you, but at the same time, you know, you're there as

00:19:33.080 well.

00:19:33.800 What happened when all of a sudden you were growing a little too fast?

00:19:37.580 What kind of threats did you start seeing at that point?

00:19:40.020 Were there some people that were power people saying, wait a minute, I don't like this guy

00:19:42.900 having this much power?

00:19:44.480 Yeah.

00:19:44.720 You know what happened?

00:19:45.420 I had a couple of things against me.

00:19:47.240 Number one, I was a younger guy.

00:19:49.200 And the older guys tend to resent you.

00:19:51.000 You know, you're young, you're doing all this, you're making all this money.

00:19:54.080 And that comes with the territory.

00:19:55.660 You can't help that.

00:19:56.440 You try to deal with it as best you can.

00:19:58.560 You know, you're not flaming that fire, so to speak, but it happens.

00:20:02.500 And then, you know, I had teamed up with the Russians.

00:20:04.880 I had all the Russian mob guys in Brighton Beach, Brooklyn, were all my partners, and they

00:20:09.140 were a pretty big crew.

00:20:09.920 And I think it was Newsday, a publication out in Long Island, had written a story that

00:20:14.700 I was becoming so powerful I was going to break away from the Columbo's and start my

00:20:18.460 own family.

00:20:19.480 No truth to it whatsoever.

00:20:20.960 It was like a fairy tale, fiction, made up.

00:20:23.200 But it got into people's heads.

00:20:25.800 And, you know, my boss started to question some of the Russian guys.

00:20:29.980 Got it.

00:20:30.420 Some things started to happen like that.

00:20:32.300 And I knew it, so I was on my guard about it.

00:20:34.300 You know, my father and I discussed it.

00:20:35.920 My dad was always in and out of jail on parole.

00:20:38.280 So when he was out, we talked about these things.

00:20:41.440 But I knew I had to watch myself.

00:20:43.380 You know, it comes with the territory.

00:20:45.840 What was the one event that happened where you're kind of like, listen, I got to start

00:20:50.020 taking a look at what's going on with me.

00:20:51.640 Was it Joey Columbo's story?

00:20:53.480 Was it the Castellano, what Gotti did to him?

00:20:56.040 Or what was it where you're like, listen, I'm going to start paying a little bit more

00:20:59.560 attention on what's going on in the marketplace right now.

00:21:01.420 You know, it wasn't that.

00:21:02.360 It was an incident that I had personally with my boss when they basically walked me into that

00:21:07.640 room.

00:21:08.280 And really put me on the hot seat because there was a story that said that I had stole

00:21:14.300 $2 billion from the government and I'm handing the family $2 million a week.

00:21:19.560 So, I mean, I got questioned, you know, they were saying, $2 billion, Michael.

00:21:22.900 I said, hey, my answer was when they write about everybody else, it's a lie.

00:21:27.320 When they're writing about me, all of a sudden it's the truth.

00:21:29.540 I said, come on, man, I'm giving you guys all this money.

00:21:31.900 You don't have to do anything.

00:21:32.960 I'm taking care of everything.

00:21:34.120 You know, I put nobody in trouble.

00:21:36.600 Nobody's on the line here.

00:21:37.820 If anybody goes down, it's going to be me and my crew.

00:21:40.680 I said, well, what's going on here?

00:21:42.440 You know, so I got a little upset about it.

00:21:44.160 And then I was talking to the boss and you don't lose your head with the boss, but I got

00:21:47.580 a little angry.

00:21:48.160 And then I had to tone myself down a little bit, you know.

00:21:50.960 And, but that put me on the alert.

00:21:54.020 I said, you know, I got to really watch myself here because, you know, mistakes here you pay

00:21:59.440 dearly for in life.

00:22:01.000 And it kind of just, like I said, put me really on my guard.

00:22:04.980 Yeah, I'll be honest with you.

00:22:05.560 I thought I was, I thought I might have gotten killed that night.

00:22:08.260 You know, the setup was bad.

00:22:10.100 My best friend was walking me into a room.

00:22:11.940 It was a, it was a room in Brooklyn.

00:22:13.900 I'll be honest with you.

00:22:14.940 You know, I had to walk out of the car and into that house and base, that basement apartment.

00:22:19.700 It was probably a 30 yard walk.

00:22:22.060 That was either the longest or the shortest walk of my life.

00:22:25.260 Yeah.

00:22:25.520 I mean, I, as I speak now, I can hear the crickets chirping and I can remember the smell of the

00:22:32.240 flowers.

00:22:33.380 Yeah.

00:22:33.560 Cause you know, Patrick, I learned something.

00:22:34.800 When you think you're going to meet your maker and I wasn't a religious guy at that point,

00:22:37.820 you start to pray.

00:22:39.240 And I was, I was nervous.

00:22:40.960 I tried not to show it because I said, Hey, if this is it, this is it.

00:22:44.660 You kind of get conditioned to that life.

00:22:47.320 But yeah, that was the night and I didn't appreciate it.

00:22:50.800 Years later now, cause you have, you hear stories that your father was involved and he

00:22:54.900 wasn't involved.

00:22:56.620 How do you feel about that whole situation?

00:22:58.900 Or was your dad really kind of saying, let's find out if Michael is really making this money

00:23:02.740 and I'm not, you know, we're not getting a piece of it.

00:23:04.720 How did you respond to that at that time?

00:23:06.700 I think my dad kind of threw me under the bus a little bit that night.

00:23:09.620 He, uh, you know, he went in separately and I was told that he didn't defend me.

00:23:13.760 He just kind of backed off and said, Hey, if my son is stealing, he does everything.

00:23:17.260 I don't do anything.

00:23:18.080 I was, I'm on parole.

00:23:19.100 He handles everything.

00:23:21.120 And I was on bad terms at that time.

00:23:22.720 No, we were on great terms.

00:23:24.160 And, uh, it really hurt, you know, because I said, man, it kind of gave me really pause

00:23:28.640 because I said, you know, if this life can separate father and son, what do we really

00:23:32.820 have here?

00:23:33.400 I never said anything to him because, you know, again, in that life, you learn to keep

00:23:37.300 things quiet until the right time.

00:23:39.860 And, uh, but it really put me on notice that I got to really be careful.

00:23:44.200 I was very disappointed in him.

00:23:45.700 I didn't, it didn't change my love for him or anything, but I was extremely, I was really

00:23:49.640 disappointed.

00:23:50.320 It really hurt.

00:23:51.420 How do you, from a moment like that, that's a, that's a big scar.

00:23:54.500 This is a man that grew up.

00:23:55.860 You need to be a man's man from five years old.

00:23:58.280 You know, he's shaping you into who you are and he's coming to your games.

00:24:01.100 He's always at your game.

00:24:03.180 How do you, from that moment, trust anybody else and not believe that, you know, at some

00:24:09.140 moment, somebody could turn on me?

00:24:10.420 Is that the faith part that completely changed it, that brought the peace?

00:24:14.420 It did.

00:24:15.220 You know, I understand my father.

00:24:17.620 I know he's really a product of that life.

00:24:20.300 And I kind of understood, even though I didn't appreciate it.

00:24:23.660 I knew my dad still loved me.

00:24:25.160 It wasn't anything like that.

00:24:26.660 It's very hard to explain to anybody else.

00:24:28.580 Like even my wife has a real problem with this.

00:24:30.600 She says, you know, you know, how do you forgive that?

00:24:33.420 I used to tell her, you know, don't worry about it.

00:24:35.520 It's okay.

00:24:36.640 And, you know, we have this special bond between us and I understand the life.

00:24:40.580 I'm a product of it too.

00:24:41.880 But it was still disappointing because I would have never done that to him.

00:24:45.180 But I'll tell you what, I almost thank him for it now.

00:24:48.280 Because I'll tell you this, Patrick, I met my wife two years after that.

00:24:51.780 And that's when I made the decision to walk away from that life.

00:24:56.480 But if this incident didn't happen with my dad, I don't think I would have ever walked away.

00:25:00.940 Wow.

00:25:01.420 I think that was God's way of separating me from this bond or this hole that my dad had on me.

00:25:09.400 So I looked back and I said, actually, it was a good thing because I don't think I would have walked away.

00:25:15.680 It's amazing how you process it that way.

00:25:19.180 I mean, I don't know who can sit there and go through that and not think of it a different way.

00:25:24.180 But the way you're processing is the man that did this to give your life maybe a second chance type of a situation.

00:25:30.480 Very interesting.

00:25:31.360 So now he's 100 years old.

00:25:32.800 You know, you were telling me, you know, he had a surgery recently.

00:25:36.460 He's doing good.

00:25:37.700 He's still sharp.

00:25:38.540 He thinks he's going to live a long time, which is great.

00:25:42.060 He still talks to me like I'm part of that life.

00:25:45.240 He's unbelievable.

00:25:46.080 Is he still reminiscing and telling old stories that you remember, Michael?

00:25:49.660 Yes.

00:25:50.320 You know, I always say this.

00:25:51.820 Look, my dad did a lot of rough things in his life.

00:25:54.940 So did I.

00:25:55.440 I went to jail for a crime that I was guilty of.

00:25:57.400 But, you know, that particular crime that he did 38 years in prison for, he was innocent of.

00:26:02.740 And I'll take that to my grave.

00:26:04.260 Really?

00:26:04.680 Oh, 100%.

00:26:05.480 I investigated that case, spoke to every witness.

00:26:08.800 They recanted their testimony.

00:26:10.540 We gave them lie detector tests, proved they lied at the trial.

00:26:13.200 The FBI was complicit in turning them against my dad.

00:26:16.960 It was a bad case.

00:26:18.100 He was framed, 1,000%.

00:26:19.700 People say, well, you know, he got away with so much.

00:26:22.300 That's not how our system's supposed to work.

00:26:24.340 They have enough tools and weapons, the government, to get people the right way.

00:26:27.700 They're not supposed to do that, no matter what or who you are.

00:26:30.380 Because if they do it against the bad guys, one day they can do it against the good guys if it suits them.

00:26:34.200 So I always say, tell people, look, you wouldn't want my dad's life in the last 50 years.

00:26:39.720 That man suffered.

00:26:40.800 Did 38 years in prison.

00:26:42.820 My sister died of an overdose of drugs while he was away.

00:26:45.700 My brother was a drug addict.

00:26:47.340 My brother actually turned against my father, went into the witness protection program,

00:26:52.100 and testified against him and got him thrown back in jail.

00:26:54.600 My kid brother.

00:26:56.240 I mean, my father was destroyed over that.

00:26:58.380 You know, my mom passed away in the last years before she passed away.

00:27:04.440 I can only describe their relationship as ugly because she blamed him for everything.

00:27:08.660 You know, 33 years without a husband, she blamed him for everything that went down.

00:27:12.080 So, I mean, the guy suffered tremendously.

00:27:14.620 And I have a real heart for that.

00:27:16.000 You know, I love my dad.

00:27:17.160 And we patched things up, you know.

00:27:18.900 It's amazing how, you know, people said I'd never have a relationship with him again.

00:27:23.860 That, you know, when I walked away.

00:27:25.880 And God has brought it full circle.

00:27:27.240 And I found out one thing, Patrick.

00:27:29.560 You have to give children, children want to love their parents.

00:27:33.420 You've got to give them a real reason not to love their parents.

00:27:36.480 Powerful.

00:27:37.280 Absolutely.

00:27:38.240 I'm just thankful that we have this relationship again.

00:27:40.880 So, Sparks Restaurant is famous for, you know, Paul Castellano.

00:27:45.080 He got shot outside by John Gotti and that whole relationship.

00:27:50.100 How was Paul Castellano?

00:27:51.740 Was he really just a money business guy?

00:27:54.140 I knew Paul.

00:27:55.000 I didn't know him well because he was a boss.

00:27:57.000 I was young at that time.

00:27:58.560 But I was in his company quite a bit.

00:28:00.560 And I did have an incident with him.

00:28:03.180 And quite honestly, you know, the word on him on the street was not great.

00:28:07.700 I don't think he had a lot of real friends on the street, especially in the other families.

00:28:11.320 I know in our family they didn't talk well about him.

00:28:14.440 More of a business guy, you know, that kind of a thing.

00:28:17.020 I think people think that maybe he didn't earn the position that he had because he was so close to Carlo and Carlo gave him that spot.

00:28:23.900 You know, it went down with Gotti.

00:28:25.480 I mean, it was either him or Gotti at that point.

00:28:28.120 And John made the move.

00:28:29.400 And, you know, in our life, there's no election process.

00:28:33.580 You know, if you're going to take over, you're going to take over the hard way.

00:28:36.240 You don't rival a boss and look for votes.

00:28:39.920 You rival a boss by eliminating them.

00:28:41.920 You know, look, money is always at the root of just about everything there.

00:28:44.960 You know, if you're a good—you make people earn, people like you.

00:28:47.980 That's the bottom line, you know.

00:28:49.300 And if they don't like you, they'll tolerate you because you're earning with them.

00:28:52.420 But he was kind of known to be a greedy guy.

00:28:54.960 And he didn't fit the profile of the real mob boss in a way, you know.

00:29:00.880 Gotti doesn't make that move on his own.

00:29:03.260 And he kind of solicits people, hey, what do you think?

00:29:05.820 He tries to get some support that if this would have happened, you know, how are people going to react?

00:29:10.860 So he kind of knew how it was going to work out if he took them out.

00:29:14.080 Every time you had a running with him, you've had obviously many runnings with him.

00:29:17.240 You've done a couple sit-downs with him.

00:29:18.900 How was Gotti like personality-wise?

00:29:21.200 Why did he have this, you know, larger-than-life story, even nowhere near the kind of money you brought in?

00:29:28.180 What made him that special?

00:29:30.220 Well, you know, he fit the Hollywood profile.

00:29:32.980 So to speak.

00:29:33.900 I mean, he had the look.

00:29:34.940 He had the mannerisms.

00:29:36.640 You know, one thing I will say about John, I happen to like him.

00:29:39.780 You know, socially, a lot of fun.

00:29:41.980 We would go in a club.

00:29:43.140 I mean, a lot of fun.

00:29:44.240 I mean, he was a good guy to be around.

00:29:45.860 Business, he didn't really understand business.

00:29:48.640 And it was a nightmare dealing with him in that respect.

00:29:51.620 Because the one thing about Gotti, in his mind, he always had to come out on top.

00:29:55.420 He could never be a loser.

00:29:56.640 Never.

00:29:57.500 So it was very hard to negotiate and do anything.

00:29:59.980 You had to make him think that he won, even if you were winning.

00:30:03.660 It was the only way to get around and get something out of him.

00:30:05.780 So you had to kind of have that mentality going in with him.

00:30:09.040 But it was very difficult to deal with in that regard.

00:30:11.760 I respected him because he made no bones about who he was.

00:30:15.120 Yeah, I'm a gangster.

00:30:15.900 I'm a mobster.

00:30:16.480 I love this thing.

00:30:17.400 That's all I am.

00:30:18.220 And that's all I ever want to be.

00:30:19.400 And it was public about it.

00:30:20.320 Yeah, it was public about it.

00:30:21.440 And that was it.

00:30:22.700 You know, people say he destroyed the life.

00:30:24.680 He didn't destroy the life.

00:30:25.760 You know, I mean, we all destroyed the life.

00:30:27.800 You know, the government just one-upped us with their technology, with the laws, with

00:30:31.980 the informants they had.

00:30:33.220 I remember reading this where you said, when you went to prison, they didn't bother you.

00:30:38.280 When he went to prison, he got bullied in prison.

00:30:41.220 My father taught me something.

00:30:42.460 He said, Mike, when you go into prison, remember three things, three words that are going to

00:30:46.220 take you, make you have an easy go of it with other guys.

00:30:49.780 You remember to say, please, thank you, and excuse me.

00:30:54.540 You know, because you bunk into somebody, excuse me.

00:30:57.820 You know, you ask somebody, please, may I have this?

00:30:59.980 You don't cut in front of people on a line.

00:31:02.100 Because everybody that, so many guys, rather, I should say, that got no respect on the street

00:31:07.600 want to get all the respect in there because they're putting on a show for everybody else.

00:31:12.220 So little silly things become major things.

00:31:14.920 Got it.

00:31:15.640 So you can't throw your weight around.

00:31:17.140 Now, you can't take any nonsense, but, you know, people have to understand.

00:31:21.200 You may be the silent type, but don't mess with me, and I'm not going to disrespect you.

00:31:24.540 Don't disrespect me.

00:31:25.740 And John carried himself differently, paid the price.

00:31:28.340 And I know a few guys that did that, so.

00:31:30.840 Business, you wrote this book.

00:31:32.340 I'll make you an offer you can't refuse.

00:31:33.960 When I read books, you know, I'll leave my mark and write down.

00:31:36.800 I made so many marks in this that was just, and it's a small book.

00:31:41.420 And I'm amazed.

00:31:42.780 I will tell you, if you haven't read this book, you have to read this book.

00:31:47.320 It was in 2009, which social media wasn't around.

00:31:50.700 I hope we can make this book become a phenomenon because I think every entrepreneur, salesperson,

00:31:57.180 leader must read this book.

00:31:58.460 So make a list of it.

00:31:59.560 We'll put a link on the bottom for you to get as well.

00:32:01.180 You linked it between business and the mafia life that you went through, and you talked

00:32:07.860 a lot of different parts of it.

00:32:10.980 Tell me about the sit-down, which was obviously very big in the business you were in.

00:32:17.700 And sit-down to us, maybe we go into a boardroom, and, you know, we're sitting and negotiating

00:32:22.240 with our investors or, you know, advisory board, whatever it is.

00:32:25.780 How was sit-down like for you guys?

00:32:28.500 Well, it was the basis or the format in which we resolved everything.

00:32:33.920 I mean, anytime we had to resolve a business dispute, something more serious, we did it

00:32:39.180 at a sit-down.

00:32:39.860 That's what we called it.

00:32:40.960 It's funny because my publisher, after they read that chapter, they don't have any more

00:32:44.440 meetings.

00:32:45.020 They have sit-downs now.

00:32:46.000 You know, the whole place is a sit-down.

00:32:48.080 These were high-level, very sophisticated meetings, believe it or not.

00:32:52.960 And we had certain rules, you know, if you're a made guy and you're at a sit-down, you had

00:32:58.300 to be respectful, no matter what the situation was.

00:33:01.600 In other words, if I'm a made guy and I'm arguing something and I'm lying and you know

00:33:07.980 I'm lying, you can't call me a liar.

00:33:09.920 If you call me a liar, you lose the argument automatically.

00:33:13.300 You have to figure out a way to make people know that this guy is wrong and I'm right.

00:33:18.540 And the old-timers were very tactful at this, you know, they would try to get you into a

00:33:23.200 trap where you would just say something and you're done.

00:33:26.020 It's all over.

00:33:27.140 So you had to really learn how to respectfully get your point across and you had to know the

00:33:33.340 mentality of the personality of the person going in.

00:33:36.620 Well, you don't defeat them.

00:33:37.880 These old-timers were smart, you know, they were cagey.

00:33:40.560 I had so many of these because it was like every day of my life when I was in the gas

00:33:44.960 business, I had somebody trying to take over, somebody trying to get in.

00:33:48.420 Because, you know, in New York, there's a lot of us and we were constantly engaging with

00:33:53.680 one another on different matters.

00:33:55.140 And I had a big crew, so the guys in my crew got in trouble.

00:33:58.000 I had to sit down with other people.

00:33:58.880 It was constant, the way of business.

00:34:00.780 So you learn how to carry yourself there.

00:34:02.600 And it really helped me in my negotiation skills in business.

00:34:08.400 It really helped because going in, I would figure out what I wanted, what I would settle

00:34:13.880 for.

00:34:15.360 And I would keep, you know, I learned one thing.

00:34:18.140 It's always great to let the other person talk.

00:34:20.820 Let them talk.

00:34:21.600 Let them just keep talking.

00:34:22.760 Throw out a word that gets them a little bit and he'll talk more.

00:34:25.700 And as he's talking, you can kind of figure out his mentality, his personality, what you can

00:34:30.160 get out of him, what you can't get out of him.

00:34:31.680 And it helped me a lot in negotiating deals later on.

00:34:36.080 And, you know, sometimes you may be the smartest person in the room and you don't want anybody

00:34:40.600 to know that.

00:34:41.900 You just want to keep quiet like you don't know anything.

00:34:43.880 Let them think they're smarter than you.

00:34:46.000 And there's other times when you're not the smartest person in the room, but you want

00:34:49.780 people to think you are.

00:34:51.360 So you have to learn how to have that skill.

00:34:55.400 Were you a big reader?

00:34:56.120 Because what you just said is art of war, right?

00:34:57.960 So, you know, when you're strong, you know, you got to show that you're weak.

00:35:02.560 When you're weak, you got to act strong.

00:35:04.000 So were you one that's, I mean, obviously I, you read Machiavelli, Prince, that was kind

00:35:08.600 of the Bible for the family, right?

00:35:11.120 But were you always reading?

00:35:13.100 No, I wasn't a big reader.

00:35:14.280 Honestly, I became a reader in prison because I have a lot to do, but no, it's just something

00:35:19.040 I developed, I think, along the way.

00:35:21.920 One real talent that helped me or skill or two, number one, I recognized a good deal because

00:35:27.820 I got a lot of stuff thrown at me and I recognized what was good and what wasn't going to work.

00:35:32.760 And that's important because you can waste your time with stuff all day long.

00:35:35.840 And secondly was, I always say, I knew how to put the right people in the right place

00:35:41.480 and get them and motivated them to do the work properly.

00:35:45.940 My mantra always was at that time, do what you do best and delegate the rest and then

00:35:51.280 make sure they do the job.

00:35:53.180 And that always worked for me until today.

00:35:55.680 You know, there's things that I'm just not good at and I don't even try to do them.

00:35:59.060 I don't want to be bothered with it, but I'll get somebody that's going to do them a lot

00:36:02.140 better than me.

00:36:02.720 Oh yeah, yeah, I had to.

00:36:04.760 So who was the best guy you saw at a sit-down?

00:36:07.200 Were you, every time you went there and you knew he was going to be at the sit-down, you

00:36:10.140 either learned a lot from him or you knew this was not going to be an easy one?

00:36:14.480 Yeah, well, Gotti was tough.

00:36:15.680 I mean, you know, you knew going in, you had to just outsmart him and let him think he

00:36:20.180 won, but you get out of there with what you want.

00:36:21.940 Really?

00:36:22.180 Oh yeah.

00:36:22.760 Wow.

00:36:23.440 Yeah.

00:36:24.080 You know, I had to deal with him.

00:36:25.580 Long story short, it may sound silly, but it wasn't at the time.

00:36:28.560 We had a big flea market, a swap meet.

00:36:30.620 And there were two partners there.

00:36:33.180 One of them was an accountant, legitimate guy, and he was my guy.

00:36:38.600 And there was another guy that he was partners with that was kind of a street guy, and they

00:36:42.500 couldn't get along.

00:36:43.480 And the kid was stealing out of the market, so the guy came to me, so I threw the kid out

00:36:47.540 of the market.

00:36:48.100 I said, you can't come back.

00:36:49.100 You're done.

00:36:49.860 We're taking it over.

00:36:50.680 Well, he runs to John, and John says, he gets in touch with me.

00:36:55.560 He said, Mike, this kid belongs to me, and half the market is mine.

00:36:58.180 I said, John, the guy didn't even know who you were.

00:37:00.300 He ran to you.

00:37:01.000 Now, all of a sudden, you know him your whole life.

00:37:02.720 You know, that's what happens in that life.

00:37:04.740 So I have a big sit down, and we can't get along.

00:37:08.040 And I said, I told my guy, I said, you're never going to get along with this guy, and

00:37:11.400 I'm never going to get along with John in this market.

00:37:13.400 I said, so we have to do something.

00:37:14.900 Either we're going to buy him out, or he's going to buy us out.

00:37:17.460 So I knew at the time that he would never stand for me buying him out.

00:37:22.860 Never.

00:37:23.360 Pride.

00:37:24.020 Yeah, pride.

00:37:25.020 So I had to have him buy me out.

00:37:28.480 But if I told him to buy me out, he wouldn't buy me out.

00:37:30.820 So I went in there, and we sat down.

00:37:32.260 I said, John, I'm buying you out.

00:37:34.000 And the first words, it's like I knew.

00:37:35.700 He said, you don't buy me out.

00:37:36.580 I buy you out.

00:37:37.480 I said, no, I'm buying you out.

00:37:38.440 We went back and forth.

00:37:39.300 Finally, I gave in.

00:37:40.120 I said, all right, buy me out.

00:37:41.060 So he buys me out.

00:37:42.840 We get out.

00:37:43.620 We share the money or whatever.

00:37:45.500 Three months later, the market went down.

00:37:47.460 He closed it, because I knew what they were going to do.

00:37:49.180 Now, who got the better end of the deal?

00:37:51.040 I don't know, because I know what I got.

00:37:52.640 Who knows how much he got when he busted the market out?

00:37:55.300 But it worked out better that way.

00:37:57.140 But he thought he won.

00:37:58.520 He could tell everybody he got me out of the market.

00:38:00.500 Meanwhile, I got what I wanted.

00:38:02.300 So that's how you had to deal with him.

00:38:03.920 Very interesting.

00:38:04.880 Anybody else that was very good in the sit-down, that was a different approach than him?

00:38:08.220 You know, I sat down with Castellano.

00:38:11.700 He was rough.

00:38:13.420 You know, he was more business.

00:38:14.900 But, you know, he's a boss, so he can throw his weight around a little bit more.

00:38:18.240 And you had to be mindful of that, you know.

00:38:20.700 But you had to be respectful and just hold your ground, you know.

00:38:23.900 But he was good.

00:38:24.940 He was really good.

00:38:25.940 I sat down with Fat Tony Salerno, who was the boss of the Genovese family.

00:38:29.120 I liked Tony a lot.

00:38:30.180 You know, I really liked him.

00:38:31.300 I really respected him.

00:38:32.660 He was very good.

00:38:33.440 The old timers were good.

00:38:34.440 Younger guys, not so much.

00:38:37.620 But, you know, I had an advantage.

00:38:38.820 I mean, I always had my father, you know, early on was my mentor.

00:38:42.260 So he kind of gave me clues as to how to go in and win.

00:38:46.280 And he was good.

00:38:47.240 35, it's like you were the LeBron James of the era, right?

00:38:50.100 I mean, you were the youngest guy.

00:38:51.700 I mean, 11 years is the difference to the second youngest guy.

00:38:55.360 And that's Gotti.

00:38:55.940 And you're doing it at 35, sitting with these powerful guys negotiating.

00:38:59.440 Michael, how was compensation figured out?

00:39:01.760 Okay, 40 cents.

00:39:02.840 I'm bringing in half a billion gallons, six to eight million a week.

00:39:06.260 How was the money spread?

00:39:08.360 So the soldiers, you know, and then you got, how was that spread?

00:39:13.140 Was there an arrangement that everyone knew how the numbers would be?

00:39:18.440 It's 10% here or 5% or 20% here?

00:39:20.620 Or would everything vary and nothing was really a steady number that would always be there?

00:39:26.860 I had my own formula.

00:39:28.340 And I discussed it with my father.

00:39:30.060 And we came to this conclusion.

00:39:31.520 If it was a legitimate deal, I didn't have to give anybody anything.

00:39:36.200 It was my deal.

00:39:36.940 Like I had a couple of automobile dealerships.

00:39:38.780 I had a movie.

00:39:39.320 I had a lot of stuff legitimately.

00:39:41.000 That was mine.

00:39:41.900 So if you started and nobody else helped you start, it's 100% yours?

00:39:45.700 It's mine.

00:39:46.400 And you don't have to share any of it?

00:39:47.600 No, unless I took them in as a partner and they gave me money or whatever.

00:39:50.980 No, it was totally mine.

00:39:52.140 Got it.

00:39:52.280 So my legit stuff was mine.

00:39:54.800 The street stuff was different.

00:39:56.660 Like when I first got involved with the gas business and I knew what I had, I went and

00:40:01.000 see my boss.

00:40:02.740 I sat down with him.

00:40:03.700 I said, Junior, I'm onto something.

00:40:05.700 It's Persico.

00:40:06.180 I said, I'm going to show you more money than you've ever seen before.

00:40:10.560 And he said, we don't do drugs.

00:40:12.040 I said, it's not drugs.

00:40:12.920 You know I'm not into that.

00:40:14.140 I said, I'm into the gas business.

00:40:16.540 I said, but here's the deal.

00:40:18.020 I don't need you to do anything.

00:40:19.640 But when other families learn of what we have, everybody's going to want to get involved.

00:40:25.760 I said, as soon as that happens, we're going to blow it.

00:40:28.480 I said, you've got to keep this within the family.

00:40:31.460 I said, if we have an argument, you've got to make me win.

00:40:34.760 You've got to make me win.

00:40:35.740 Don't play politics, nothing.

00:40:37.500 You do that for me and I'll show you more money than you ever saw before.

00:40:41.860 And he said, show me.

00:40:43.860 And I'm starting to bring him every week.

00:40:46.740 All he had to do was sit back.

00:40:48.060 I didn't ask him for anything, right?

00:40:49.940 But every time we had to sit down, I had to win.

00:40:52.460 Now I'm bringing him $2 million a week.

00:40:54.180 That buys a lot of loyalty.

00:40:56.080 And my formula was, if I brought the deal in and I didn't need anything from you,

00:41:02.020 you got 25% of anything.

00:41:03.760 25% goes back to the family.

00:41:06.040 Got it.

00:41:07.140 If I needed you in some way, like I had to have money from you or whatever,

00:41:11.080 that was different than maybe my full partner.

00:41:14.720 So the override was a 25% override?

00:41:17.240 25%.

00:41:17.940 Wow.

00:41:18.180 That was my deal.

00:41:19.120 And I was a captain, so there was nobody between me and him.

00:41:22.480 So I gave it to him.

00:41:23.640 Like if I was a soldier, I'd have to give it to my captain.

00:41:26.280 My captain then would give it to him and they'd work it out.

00:41:28.380 Once you're a captain, you only report up, right?

00:41:30.180 There's nobody else between you.

00:41:31.000 Report directly to the boss.

00:41:31.780 You talked about conciliary, right?

00:41:34.400 Counselor.

00:41:34.900 I can tell you I am where I'm at right now because I've had some amazing advisors in my life.

00:41:40.840 I can't even, we were talking about Dudley earlier.

00:41:42.760 We were talking about certain, you know, Tom and some of these other guys that have affected my life.

00:41:46.900 How do you know who is a conciliary where you can open up with?

00:41:51.640 Like in your world, that's a big part of your life and your business.

00:41:55.140 So how do you identify one?

00:41:57.240 And when do you know this is going to be the guy that I'm going to go to?

00:42:00.320 The conciliary is an official position in our life.

00:42:03.620 For every made man or for?

00:42:06.900 There's one conciliary in every family.

00:42:10.160 And the conciliary, his official position is that he is the liaison between the men and the boss.

00:42:18.580 In other words, in that life we're told this.

00:42:21.120 Everybody is equal.

00:42:22.440 You may be the boss, but you're still equal.

00:42:24.340 You don't have better rights than the soldier.

00:42:26.660 We're all made guys.

00:42:27.680 We're all equal.

00:42:28.200 You just happen to have a different position.

00:42:30.040 You're in control, but we're equal.

00:42:31.940 You can't violate a soldier's right either.

00:42:36.500 So if a soldier has a problem, maybe with the boss or something,

00:42:40.020 he's supposed to go to the conciliary, and the conciliary straightens it out with the boss.

00:42:44.740 That's in theory how it is.

00:42:47.160 In practice, it doesn't work that way because the boss appoints the conciliary.

00:42:52.340 And if you have a problem with the boss and you go to the conciliary,

00:42:55.340 you're probably going to get killed or get in trouble.

00:42:57.360 So you never send anything to the conciliary.

00:42:59.720 It was kind of a nonsense position, you know, and usually it was a guy that the boss respected

00:43:07.080 that, you know, he would run things off of, and they'd discuss things together

00:43:10.820 and figure out what they have to do in any situation.

00:43:13.660 You didn't have an individual conciliary, but I obviously,

00:43:16.740 the guy that I trusted the most and talked with was my dad.

00:43:19.300 If I had something that I thought I needed advice with, I'd talk to my dad.

00:43:22.500 Perfect. It was immediate.

00:43:23.500 That was it.

00:43:24.080 It's good to have that one person there that you could go to and say,

00:43:27.160 look, you know, especially my dad because he knew the life so well.

00:43:30.080 What made a very good conciliary?

00:43:32.140 So if you were to say, here's what makes a very good conciliary, what would you say it was?

00:43:37.980 Wisdom. He had to know the life.

00:43:40.700 He had to have good discernment, you know, on, you know, how to figure things out.

00:43:45.380 He should be a cool-tempered guy.

00:43:48.780 And he should be sincere and, you know, and not have his own personal agenda.

00:43:53.840 That's important.

00:43:55.180 But that's rare.

00:43:57.300 I'm telling you, it's rare in that life.

00:43:58.560 There's so much politics that goes on there.

00:44:00.920 You really had to be careful.

00:44:02.640 What was the benefit of being a conciliary?

00:44:04.940 It's a high position.

00:44:06.880 You know, it's, I mean, the underboss and the conciliary were kind of equal.

00:44:11.060 Really? Really?

00:44:14.040 Wow.

00:44:14.620 So that, that much of a respected position.

00:44:17.220 So let's transition to human nature.

00:44:19.240 You know, what were, what were some of the things that you learned where you would go and have a sit down

00:44:24.140 or you'd meet with people and you would say, I don't know if I feel comfortable with this guy.

00:44:28.340 I don't know if I trust this guy.

00:44:29.460 I feel comfortable trusting this guy.

00:44:30.740 Right. Was there a methodology that you eventually put together or was it still an intuition type of thing when you were reading people?

00:44:39.140 It was more intuitive, I would say, because everybody was so different.

00:44:44.040 And obviously, if you had experience with somebody more than once, then, you know, all right, I know what I'm up.

00:44:49.380 I'm in for with this guy.

00:44:50.720 But it was more intuitive because, again, with me, I had so many, you know, with so many different people.

00:44:57.840 And I pretty well knew, you know, when you start to get some experience in that life, you know, right away, you know, when somebody is out to get you.

00:45:05.880 And so to speak, you know, they're they're looking to, you know, not make things turn out for you.

00:45:10.920 Well, you know, you just deal with it because I would assume probably a person who ends up becoming a boss in that world.

00:45:17.260 You have to be very good in human nature.

00:45:20.420 You know, you've got to be able to figure it out and see who's even if you have a sit down, you're sitting and you're looking at this guy saying that guy's not on my set.

00:45:27.880 This guy's on my set.

00:45:28.800 That guy's in the middle of this guy.

00:45:30.780 There was a lot of that probably going on all the time.

00:45:32.720 Yeah, you know, you know, the problem, though, Patrick, with that life, you know, that life is like it's like a wheel turning around.

00:45:39.720 And the guy that's on the bottom today can end up being on the top tomorrow.

00:45:43.780 And you always had to be mindful of that.

00:45:47.420 So, for instance, you know, in Gotti's case, you know, he could have had a soldier close to him that was a nobody, really.

00:45:56.180 And then all of a sudden, Gotti's the boss.

00:45:58.000 And now this guy becomes somebody.

00:46:00.040 So a guy that you didn't have much respect for, now you better respect him.

00:46:04.960 Got it.

00:46:05.500 So because of that, you always tried to treat people the right way.

00:46:10.020 Very interesting.

00:46:10.380 Yeah.

00:46:10.860 Because you never know, you know, where that guy's going to be.

00:46:13.240 The next day or the next week.

00:46:15.120 And then he's got it in for you.

00:46:16.520 And then you've got a problem.

00:46:17.500 That is very interesting when you think about that.

00:46:19.460 Because if that guy comes up, the influence is going to be with him.

00:46:22.480 Right?

00:46:23.180 So let's transition into some interesting characters.

00:46:26.480 So Rudy Giuliani.

00:46:27.940 Right?

00:46:28.240 He's coming up.

00:46:29.260 Right?

00:46:29.500 And he wants to clean house is what he wants to do.

00:46:33.020 Rudy says a guy who wrote a book, Man of Honor.

00:46:37.540 Man of Honor.

00:46:38.020 Man of Honor.

00:46:39.300 Who is the person?

00:46:40.320 Man of Honor.

00:46:40.940 Okay.

00:46:41.420 So he writes the book.

00:46:43.240 And then he gives the blueprint to them to know what the Ricoh game was.

00:46:49.540 And he puts that together.

00:46:51.020 And they had the best FBI agent at that time.

00:46:53.380 Some guy named Lindley or Lin, you know, that he knew how to go and create an informant.

00:46:58.540 And he goes and figures out with the Green Reaper, the Scarpa, I think.

00:47:03.460 So is that really true to that?

00:47:06.720 I don't believe any of that.

00:47:07.260 Or is that more?

00:47:07.680 Okay.

00:47:08.100 I don't believe any of that.

00:47:09.100 I mean, Giuliani says that the reason he was in.

00:47:12.600 He had a position in Washington, D.C. in the Department of Justice.

00:47:15.600 And his story was that Joe Bonanno wrote this book.

00:47:21.140 And he being an Italian-American, Giuliani, was so insulted by this book because he made the mafia out to be like a family.

00:47:30.240 Like it was a very legitimate, great thing.

00:47:32.200 And he was so insulted by Giuliani that he had a clean house because of it.

00:47:36.940 And that's why he came to New York and became the U.S. attorney there so he could attack the mob and clean house.

00:47:42.960 I don't know if I believe that.

00:47:44.240 I think he was an opportunistic guy.

00:47:46.660 And being a U.S. attorney in Manhattan is an extremely prestigious position.

00:47:51.540 And he picked our guys to go after and build his career at that point in time.

00:47:57.300 And he did a great job of it.

00:47:58.740 I mean, let's face it.

00:47:59.620 He has that repetition until today, you know.

00:48:01.420 I mean, he was very capable at what he did.

00:48:04.480 The racketeering, the RICO statute, had been on the books for over 10 years when Rudy came in.

00:48:09.460 But nobody ever used it.

00:48:11.080 He learned or he saw how to use it effectively.

00:48:14.200 And he started using it against us.

00:48:16.120 And it was designed to be used against us, but nobody ever did it.

00:48:19.500 And it's an extremely difficult law to navigate around.

00:48:24.200 I mean, I had three RICO indictments.

00:48:25.800 To me, I mean, I think it's an unconstitutional law, but it's a law.

00:48:30.560 Nevertheless, it's on the books, so you live with it.

00:48:32.820 But, you know, he just was determined to make his name on us guys.

00:48:37.140 And he did.

00:48:37.940 Did you ever have a one-on-one runner with him?

00:48:40.640 I had one-well, in the courtroom, the day I was-he indicted me on a big RICO case.

00:48:46.760 And the day of my arraignment, I had-he was giving me bail.

00:48:50.620 And he came up to me and he said, Francis, if I convict you on this case, I'm going to give you double what your father got.

00:48:55.700 You're going to get 100 years.

00:48:57.340 And that's the kind of time they'll give him.

00:48:58.560 He told you this.

00:48:58.780 He told me straight out.

00:49:00.560 And I said, Rudy, I beat you guys three times already.

00:49:04.120 Let's go for round four.

00:49:05.500 I told him, you know, I was kind of arrogant back then.

00:49:08.560 But, you know, I was on trial for several months and I was the lead defendant and I was acquitted in that case.

00:49:17.140 Some of my code events were convicted.

00:49:18.560 I got 30 years.

00:49:19.540 So, I would have probably got at least 50 if I lose that case.

00:49:23.320 So, to say that I won that case was a blessing is an understatement.

00:49:27.480 Wow.

00:49:27.880 I'd still be in prison.

00:49:28.920 Wow.

00:49:29.640 What do you think about Rudy today?

00:49:30.980 What do you think?

00:49:31.300 Like, when you see Rudy today on TV, I mean, I saw news was on.

00:49:34.960 So, when you watch TV and you see him, how do you look at him when you, you know?

00:49:41.560 I'm okay with him.

00:49:42.580 I mean, it's not personal.

00:49:43.700 You know, I actually saw him one time.

00:49:45.460 He actually, he said some good things about me later on.

00:49:49.140 Because when I was walking away from that life, most of the people in government said,

00:49:53.600 ah, it's a fraud, he's not really walking away and he's pulling a scam over the government

00:49:57.260 like he did in the gas business.

00:49:58.840 Everybody said that.

00:49:59.720 But Rudy said, you know what?

00:50:01.160 He's a pretty smart guy and he knows his life is on the run and I think his walking away may be genuine.

00:50:07.000 He said that early on.

00:50:08.700 What year, what year was, it was in the 90s?

00:50:10.200 Yeah, it was, yeah, it was in the, it was in the early 90s, I think, when that, yeah.

00:50:13.740 He came in and he said that.

00:50:14.760 Very interesting for him to say that.

00:50:16.380 But listen, he's a very capable guy.

00:50:19.700 No question about it.

00:50:20.860 I will tell you this.

00:50:21.780 I thought he was a great mayor in New York.

00:50:24.080 I really did.

00:50:24.800 He did a lot for that city.

00:50:27.120 Without a doubt.

00:50:28.660 So, I mean, I can't knock his, you know, his abilities.

00:50:32.840 He was good at what he did.

00:50:34.980 He says a big part of it was something about his dad.

00:50:37.660 You know, and his dad said, we can't be bullied in New York.

00:50:40.700 And that was his inspiration, which I'm like, wow.

00:50:42.900 What a thing to remember for your dad to instill that you get that much drive to want to go against the five families.

00:50:50.460 That's got to be a chip on his shoulder to want to do something like that.

00:50:53.500 You know, I mean, it's a good narrative.

00:50:56.840 But if you're going to make your name in New York, you're going to make it two ways.

00:51:00.120 You're going after Wall Street or you're going after the mob.

00:51:02.860 That's it.

00:51:03.820 And he chose both.

00:51:06.540 Let's face it.

00:51:07.340 I mean, he got Boeski and he got, what's his name?

00:51:10.800 The other big guy.

00:51:12.860 Oh, gosh, I forget.

00:51:14.160 Milken.

00:51:14.680 He got Milken.

00:51:15.400 And he got us.

00:51:16.420 He got us all.

00:51:17.200 So, I mean, you know.

00:51:19.400 But I'll tell you what.

00:51:20.720 I owe a lot to him.

00:51:22.040 And he doesn't even realize this.

00:51:24.460 When I was on trial, Irizo, my gas business partner, had become an informant.

00:51:30.120 They were creating the case against me and the gas business.

00:51:33.980 And Irizo was the star witness.

00:51:36.980 Well, when Giuliani found out that they had this big witness against me and I was on trial,

00:51:43.140 he wanted that witness to testify against me.

00:51:45.900 The problem was Irizo didn't really know anything about that case.

00:51:49.300 But there was a big dispute, I found out afterwards, between the Eastern District and Giuliani

00:51:54.140 over getting Irizo to testify because the Eastern District didn't want to give him up.

00:51:58.080 That was their guy.

00:51:58.780 You know how it is.

00:51:59.500 The government.

00:52:00.820 Anyhow, Giuliani's got a lot of juice.

00:52:02.320 He wins.

00:52:03.300 We put Irizo on the stand.

00:52:05.440 Okay.

00:52:06.040 And we crucify him up there.

00:52:07.740 Destroyed him on the stand.

00:52:09.220 Okay.

00:52:09.900 Jury didn't believe him.

00:52:10.760 I get acquitted.

00:52:11.880 What happens now?

00:52:13.360 Now the government is scared because I just beat their main witness against me in the gas case.

00:52:18.120 They're ready to throw him out of the witness protection program.

00:52:20.500 Wow.

00:52:21.440 That's what gave me the leverage to negotiate the deal that I got because they were afraid I was going to beat him again because I had won four cases now.

00:52:28.140 I know they called John the Teflon down, but I've won four cases too.

00:52:32.480 And the Giuliani case was a big loss for them.

00:52:35.740 And if you look back, that was the only case that ended up in an acquittal.

00:52:38.820 He convicted everybody.

00:52:40.360 We were the only ones where there was an acquittal.

00:52:42.180 So that gave me the leverage to go in and make the deal in the Eastern District and only, I said, only get 10 years.

00:52:49.900 Because that was a bonus back then, only get 10 years.

00:52:52.360 They were giving everybody 50 and 100.

00:52:53.880 You got 10?

00:52:54.820 I got 10.

00:52:55.360 That's amazing compared to some of the other stories you hear about.

00:52:57.940 I'll tell you this.

00:52:58.820 I believe if I originally didn't testify in the Giuliani case and I beat him, they wouldn't have made the deal with me.

00:53:04.120 They would have taken me to trial because it was the gas business.

00:53:06.500 They figured they had me.

00:53:07.540 Wow.

00:53:07.860 They were going to put me away forever, but they got scared.

00:53:10.240 How much would you have gone?

00:53:11.240 $35, $50?

00:53:12.440 Oh, easy.

00:53:13.540 Easy.

00:53:14.500 $50 minimum.

00:53:15.520 Really?

00:53:16.260 Yeah.

00:53:17.380 Patrick, they were giving guys 100, 150 years.

00:53:20.320 Wow.

00:53:20.740 And I'm the youngest at all of these guys.

00:53:22.560 They're going to give me 300 years.

00:53:24.040 That's unbelievable.

00:53:25.080 They would have crucified me.

00:53:26.420 When you have time to think and really analyze the way life goes, and you look back and I said,

00:53:30.720 man, all these negatives turned into a positive for me.

00:53:33.680 They gave me breaks that I didn't realize were happening at that time.

00:53:37.360 You know, that's a big part of my faith when I talk to people.

00:53:39.980 I said, you know, the misery that you're going through now might be the blessing for you later on.

00:53:45.120 I said, it happened in my life in more than one situation.

00:53:48.780 You know, my father, okay, betraying me that later broke that tie that got me out of that life.

00:53:54.020 Because everybody I know, either dead or in prison for the rest of their life, everybody.

00:53:58.000 So how was I going to walk away?

00:54:00.560 I had a major bullseye on my back.

00:54:02.540 They weren't going to let me go.

00:54:04.260 No way.

00:54:04.780 That is an unbelievable story right there.

00:54:06.520 By itself, that's an unbelievable story.

00:54:08.280 So, Rudy Giuliani, you know what would be fun?

00:54:10.860 It'd be fun to be at a sit-down with you, Rudy, and just hearing the conversations now.

00:54:19.500 I would love that.

00:54:20.420 Huh?

00:54:20.840 I would love it.

00:54:21.380 I would rub it in.

00:54:21.980 I would love to see it.

00:54:22.700 The first thing out of time, Rudy, you know, I'm the only guy to beat you.

00:54:25.280 You know what I'm doing?

00:54:25.600 I'd start it off like that, put him right on the defensive.

00:54:31.040 So, some characters, you know, a couple characters that I'm curious about if you ever had a running

00:54:35.040 with.

00:54:35.600 Did you ever have any business with Roy Cohen?

00:54:38.560 I did.

00:54:39.040 But how was his personality?

00:54:42.520 Because you hear Roy Cohen, the influence with Trump, and, you know, he was working with

00:54:47.700 the five families, and everybody trusted him because he wasn't leaking any information to

00:54:51.880 anybody.

00:54:52.860 You know, the story that he had in the court many years ago that you read about all the

00:54:56.400 time.

00:54:56.680 So, how was Roy Cohen?

00:54:59.200 He was respected.

00:55:00.380 But I'll tell you my major Roy Cohen incident.

00:55:02.740 I get indicted in the Giuliani case.

00:55:06.380 Roy reaches out to me, I go to his office, I go see him, he said, I heard about the case.

00:55:13.160 He says, I can get your indictment squashed.

00:55:16.340 Now, Patrick, nobody gets an indictment squashed, not in the federal level, not when you're a

00:55:20.320 target like me.

00:55:21.060 I said, okay.

00:55:21.780 I said, what do you want?

00:55:22.960 He said, I want 250 grand.

00:55:25.100 He says, and I'll make it go away.

00:55:27.840 I said, I'll tell you what.

00:55:29.800 I said, I'm calculating, I got to go to trial, this and that, and I lose, you know, I'm going

00:55:34.860 to go.

00:55:35.040 I said, I'll put a million dollars in escrow, okay, when the indictment is squashed, take

00:55:42.000 the whole million.

00:55:43.620 Because I knew it wasn't going to happen.

00:55:45.480 He said, well, you know, it doesn't work that way.

00:55:47.100 I said, that's how I work it.

00:55:48.940 I said, I'm giving you four, three times the money, four times the money.

00:55:51.680 I said, I'm putting it in escrow, take it, squash the indictment, you got it.

00:55:56.120 That was the end of that.

00:55:57.920 He's trying to beat me.

00:55:59.220 Yeah.

00:55:59.740 You know, because then they come up with another excuse.

00:56:01.440 That's right.

00:56:01.820 He says, we never trusted our lawyers.

00:56:04.300 Never tried.

00:56:04.960 Even the lives, even the ones we loved, we hated.

00:56:07.160 Well, you know, Gagani apparently had a great lawyer, but.

00:56:09.980 Bruce Cutler.

00:56:10.580 You know who I'm talking about.

00:56:11.280 Yeah, Bruce Cutler.

00:56:11.940 I knew Bruce well.

00:56:12.880 Was he, so he also, people didn't trust him either?

00:56:15.380 You trust him to a point.

00:56:16.840 Right.

00:56:17.180 Because it's money.

00:56:17.860 It's my fees per hour and the whole.

00:56:19.420 You never, you never, ever, ever admitted to your lawyer, no matter how much you trust

00:56:24.080 him, that you were guilty.

00:56:24.900 Was Roy trusted?

00:56:27.140 No.

00:56:28.100 Really?

00:56:28.620 No.

00:56:29.420 Seriously?

00:56:29.940 He was a, let me tell you something about their life.

00:56:33.120 And I don't mean this to be offensive.

00:56:34.980 Anybody that wasn't a made guy, it could have been the President of the United States or

00:56:38.940 the Pope.

00:56:39.520 If you're not a made guy, you're a sucker.

00:56:41.980 Everybody was on the same level.

00:56:44.080 And Roy Cohen, if you could use him, you used him.

00:56:46.760 But did we trust him?

00:56:48.200 Hell no.

00:56:49.960 Bruce Cutler.

00:56:51.060 We used him and everything else, but you don't trust them 100%.

00:56:53.700 That makes sense.

00:56:54.100 I mean, that's just the way we dealt with them.

00:56:55.940 That makes sense.

00:56:57.060 So was Joey Gallo really the guy that, you know, that killed, you know, Joe?

00:57:03.180 Joey Gallo was the guy that did it.

00:57:04.680 Was it validated?

00:57:05.280 It wasn't him.

00:57:05.740 It wasn't him personally.

00:57:07.580 Of course, he had the.

00:57:09.060 But he was behind that, yeah.

00:57:10.740 That was verified.

00:57:11.700 Everybody knew that it was.

00:57:12.760 100%.

00:57:13.240 Was Nicky Black as feared of a man as they paint him out to be?

00:57:20.080 No.

00:57:20.700 Okay.

00:57:21.320 No.

00:57:22.340 I got along well with Nicky.

00:57:24.340 I'll tell you one story, though.

00:57:25.680 I went into his, he had a bar, and he was a brutal guy, I got to tell you.

00:57:31.480 And some guy owed him money, and I went in the back with him.

00:57:34.080 He said, Nick, Mike, come over here.

00:57:35.240 And he was breaking the guy's hands and everything like that.

00:57:37.820 He said, I owe the money, you know.

00:57:40.000 And I said, Nicky, come on, man.

00:57:41.820 You know, I said, how's the guy going to pay you if you break his hands?

00:57:44.220 He can't even go to work, you know.

00:57:46.280 You know, but no, he wasn't.

00:57:48.620 You got to understand something, too, Patrick.

00:57:50.960 You know, John Gotti was feared by everybody.

00:57:54.340 John talked a lot, but we all were capable of doing what we had to do.

00:57:59.500 You know, we were only in fear if we did something wrong and we knew we had to be afraid.

00:58:05.040 But because you throw your chest out, you're no more capable than I am.

00:58:11.460 In other words, if I got an order to kill you, I'm going to kill you.

00:58:15.020 I don't care who you are.

00:58:15.960 I have to.

00:58:17.140 Otherwise, my life is at stake.

00:58:19.080 So we didn't fear people in that way.

00:58:22.040 But, you know, there's people you don't want to cross.

00:58:24.440 Like Junior, my boss, he was a treacherous guy.

00:58:27.800 I don't want to cross him because I don't know what's going to happen.

00:58:30.720 Was he that bad?

00:58:31.860 I mean, the stuff you read about him is like.

00:58:35.560 They call him the snake.

00:58:36.840 I mean, he was a treacherous guy.

00:58:38.840 I mean, I liked him.

00:58:39.480 Don't get me wrong.

00:58:40.140 I got along with him.

00:58:41.020 But I knew not to mess with him.

00:58:44.540 So we all had that kind of a fear.

00:58:47.520 You know what I mean?

00:58:48.120 Don't don't mess because you may walk in a room and not walk out.

00:58:51.300 What made Capone special?

00:58:52.820 You know, in the community, was it anything significant that because they put you and Capone in the same league for the most money made.

00:59:00.180 Right.

00:59:00.440 So.

00:59:01.060 Well, listen, what they always said, and I believe it to be that the gas business was the most money that we had seen since the days of prohibition.

00:59:10.220 Now, we're not adjusting for inflation.

00:59:12.500 Sure.

00:59:12.860 But so, I mean, he was an earner.

00:59:14.900 He had he caught it lucky like I did, I guess.

00:59:18.360 You know, I found the gas tax at that time.

00:59:20.460 There was prohibition and he he found the right deal and he was able to capitalize on it.

00:59:25.500 So when it comes on to sports, do you think, you know, the whole Pete Rose story and all these things you hear about back in the days?

00:59:34.340 OK, you think a lot of it still happens today?

00:59:37.320 As far as as far as.

00:59:39.260 Hey, make sure you don't win by 11, you know, make sure you, you know, don't pitch the game like this.

00:59:46.800 You do this.

00:59:47.640 I know it happens a lot in a high school and a college level.

00:59:50.160 Do you think it still happens at the highest level?

00:59:52.340 In the pros, I don't believe so.

00:59:54.280 Because the salaries now that these guys make, you know, they can afford to lose.

01:00:00.460 They'll pay their bets.

01:00:01.600 They'll pay their debts.

01:00:02.580 You know, back in my day, it was a different story.

01:00:06.240 You know, I had bookmakers working for me and we had a lot of athletes gambling with us.

01:00:10.160 And I remember bookmakers calling me up, hey, Mike, so-and-so is into me for 25 grand.

01:00:14.060 Should I cut him off?

01:00:15.480 I said, why would you cut him off?

01:00:17.080 All you're doing is writing an entry on a piece of paper.

01:00:19.720 I said, get leverage.

01:00:20.960 Let him get into you for 250 grand and then bring him to me.

01:00:24.760 The higher the loss, the more leverage you got over the guy, you know, because they didn't have that kind of money back then.

01:00:29.960 Now, 250 grand, they're paid off.

01:00:31.920 What's the big deal?

01:00:32.500 Nothing.

01:00:32.760 No, no.

01:00:33.960 I mean, look, Michael Jordan is a legendary degenerate gambler.

01:00:37.420 And I'm not calling him personally.

01:00:38.760 I'm just calling his gambling gambler.

01:00:39.920 Sure, sure, yeah.

01:00:40.960 The guy can lose a million dollars a week.

01:00:42.600 It wouldn't faze him.

01:00:43.480 Yeah.

01:00:44.020 You know, so, I mean, you can't-

01:00:45.380 And there's some controversy behind him with the whole, what happened to his dad.

01:00:49.060 You remember that whole thing about was it, was it not.

01:00:51.480 And Stern told him to step away.

01:00:53.020 But, I mean, I don't know the story behind it.

01:00:54.880 I definitely believe, because I was working with the NBA at that point in time.

01:00:59.300 And they told him to get away.

01:01:00.660 You definitely believe that.

01:01:02.020 A hundred percent, I believe that.

01:01:03.460 And he went and played baseball for a year just to get, let things die down.

01:01:07.760 And then he came back.

01:01:09.160 You know, yeah.

01:01:10.000 I mean, that was the inside talk at that time.

01:01:12.780 I read both sides.

01:01:13.720 And I'm like, you know, it's kind of convincing.

01:01:15.280 I just don't know for me to say that.

01:01:17.840 But you hear some high, credible sources saying that, you know, that this took place.

01:01:23.600 Last few things here before we wrap up.

01:01:26.060 So, you got a new project coming up.

01:01:28.080 I literally got an email a week ago.

01:01:29.660 I said, hey, did you know Michael got casted for a movie with Tom Hanks and, you know, with Katarina Radivojevic from, you know, Croatia?

01:01:40.260 Or, you know, the movie's going to be in Croatia.

01:01:42.040 It's a $50 million budget.

01:01:43.260 But how did this all of a sudden happen?

01:01:46.820 You know, I had a role in a movie recently called Let There Be Light with Kevin Sorbo.

01:01:52.980 And long story short, how that happened, the writer is a good friend of mine.

01:01:56.120 He wrote me in to the, and then he said, Mike, I want you to play the part.

01:01:59.860 I had no intention of doing it, but I ended up doing it.

01:02:02.860 It was an ex-mob guy who became a pastor.

01:02:05.400 Big stretch, big stretch for me, right?

01:02:08.360 So, I was basically playing myself.

01:02:10.240 But, you know, I'm involved with a fellow by the name of Tom Creole.

01:02:13.960 And Tom is, he goes after black money.

01:02:17.260 Black money meaning money that's used to finance terrorist groups.

01:02:24.240 And money that's used to go after Christian, you know, martyrs.

01:02:29.120 I mean, to martyr Christians.

01:02:30.740 And he and I are kind of working together.

01:02:32.620 And he created a film, a game, rather, called, oh, gosh, I forget, Eva something, the game, right?

01:02:40.260 And they're creating a movie out of the game.

01:02:42.240 And I think they spoke to Tom Hanks and he wants to be in it.

01:02:45.060 Let me tell you about this movie.

01:02:46.280 It's an early project.

01:02:48.520 So, who knows if it will ever come to pass.

01:02:51.400 But, yes, they want me to play the role.

01:02:52.920 And I said, look, because of the cause, I'll be involved with it.

01:02:55.640 I'm not an actor.

01:02:56.440 I don't intend to be an actor.

01:02:58.340 But I guess if the right thing comes up and it works for you, you do it.

01:03:02.460 So, I do know that you had some experience with movies in the past that you, you know,

01:03:07.980 had somebody that worked with you, that, you know, you funded some movies, a quarter million dollars,

01:03:12.120 that led to another half a million dollars.

01:03:13.560 So, there are some stories about what are you working on nowadays?

01:03:16.380 What are some projects you're working on nowadays?

01:03:18.360 A couple of things are real exciting.

01:03:20.180 My main project right now is I'm doing a stage show in Las Vegas.

01:03:24.740 And it's the history of the mob in Las Vegas set to music and dance.

01:03:30.560 It's a musical.

01:03:31.420 Wow.

01:03:31.820 And we're telling the whole history of the mob from the 1950s, okay, when they got involved

01:03:37.800 and actually created Vegas, right through the 80s when they kind of were pushed out.

01:03:42.080 And I'm going to narrate it actually on stage.

01:03:45.460 And a little bit of my story is going to be interspersed in that, the way we've designed it.

01:03:49.820 But it's a really cool project.

01:03:51.580 I'm very excited about it.

01:03:52.720 It's going to appear at the plaza downtown.

01:03:54.480 We have a marketing arrangement with the Mob Museum.

01:03:58.840 That's a big museum downtown in Las Vegas.

01:04:01.740 I have a relationship with them there.

01:04:03.580 And it's going to premiere in May of next year.

01:04:06.160 So, I have that.

01:04:08.000 And I've got two television projects.

01:04:10.300 One is a scripted series called American Royalty.

01:04:14.140 And that is the history of the mob in New York from the 50s right through the mid-70s.

01:04:18.860 And we're going to tell the story of the five families.

01:04:22.220 And I'm really excited about the project because I'm with a great company.

01:04:26.360 And they put together a great showrunner and writer who's got tremendous credits.

01:04:31.000 And I think that's going to go next year.

01:04:33.120 And I'm doing a true crime unscripted show that's called A Mafia Democracy.

01:04:39.240 And basically, the theme of the show is that we're going to highlight cases

01:04:44.920 where the government was complicit in framing somebody.

01:04:49.860 And we're going to be holding the government accountable in cases like that.

01:04:53.760 The first case that we're going to highlight in the first season is my father's case.

01:04:57.740 Wow.

01:04:58.360 We're going to tell that whole story.

01:04:59.700 Unbelievable.

01:05:00.500 In six episodes.

01:05:01.420 Does he know about it?

01:05:02.500 He does.

01:05:03.400 And I said to him, Dad, for 50 years, you've been complaining that you've been framed.

01:05:09.000 I believe you.

01:05:09.680 A lot of people believe you.

01:05:10.860 But you never want to talk about it on camera.

01:05:13.640 I said, I'm going to do this show.

01:05:15.360 I said, but you have to get on camera.

01:05:17.260 And all you have to say is, I was framed.

01:05:19.300 I'm going to ask you some questions and you've got to cooperate.

01:05:21.760 You know what he says to me?

01:05:22.720 He says, let me ask my lawyer.

01:05:24.900 I said, Dad, you don't have a lawyer.

01:05:26.660 I gave you a lawyer.

01:05:27.820 I said, and your lawyer is going to say yes.

01:05:29.260 So you've got to commit to me that you're going to do it.

01:05:31.280 So he committed.

01:05:31.840 He said, yes, I'll do it.

01:05:32.840 That's cool.

01:05:33.560 He's never been on camera.

01:05:34.440 My dad has never said a word to the press.

01:05:36.560 He's never been interviewed.

01:05:38.080 So this will be the first time.

01:05:39.800 The oldest made guy in America, okay, is finally going to be on camera and say some things.

01:05:44.600 And I said, you don't have to admit who you are, what you did, or what you were involved in.

01:05:48.400 I'm going to get him to do that anyway.

01:05:50.160 But, yeah, he's agreed.

01:05:51.800 I think it's important.

01:05:53.040 You know, again, I want people to understand.

01:05:55.900 I'm not anti-government.

01:05:57.140 I'm not anti-law enforcement.

01:05:58.420 I have many friends in law enforcement.

01:06:01.120 I have brothers in Christ in enforcement.

01:06:03.540 And I tell people, I have five daughters.

01:06:05.360 When they walk down the street, I expect law enforcement to protect them.

01:06:08.640 I'm a friend to law enforcement.

01:06:10.400 But what I don't like is when they go rogue and they frame people and they put people away and they destroy lives.

01:06:16.220 They have enough weapons and tools to play by the rules and go and get people the right way.

01:06:22.500 And most good people in law enforcement feel the same way.

01:06:25.680 So I'm not, you know, I'm not going against them.

01:06:28.060 But to me, it's an exciting series.

01:06:30.380 It's kind of like, you know, John Walsh in America's Most Wanted.

01:06:33.380 He had a personal stake in this.

01:06:35.580 And I'm going to host that series.

01:06:37.320 It looks like they want me to do that.

01:06:39.180 And hopefully that will be a success and it will have the right impact.

01:06:42.220 And I'll be honest with you, Patrick.

01:06:43.600 I don't think there's ever been a time in my lifetime where a show like this would be more relevant than today.

01:06:50.140 Because the feeling with government is not great today.

01:06:52.240 No, it's not.

01:06:53.280 No, it's not.

01:06:54.040 And you kind of talked about it in the end of your book.

01:06:56.340 You know, if there's anything I would say when you buy the book, I'll make you an offer you can't refuse.

01:07:01.720 The last chapter really gets into your beliefs about the government and politics and all that, which I think it's very fascinating.

01:07:09.580 Maybe we can talk about that on another time.

01:07:11.500 But, guys, again, if you haven't read the book, go buy the book.

01:07:14.720 We'll put a link on the bottom.

01:07:15.780 Michael, thank you so much for opening your home to us.

01:07:17.720 Thank you, Patrick.

01:07:18.140 Appreciate your time.

01:07:18.940 Thank you.

01:07:19.600 Thanks, everybody, for listening.

01:07:20.880 And by the way, if you haven't already subscribed to Valuetainment on iTunes, please do so.

01:07:25.500 Give us a five-star.

01:07:26.900 Write a review if you haven't already.

01:07:28.400 And if you have any questions for me that you may have, you can always find me on Snapchat, Instagram, Facebook, or YouTube.

01:07:34.300 Just search my name, PatrickVidDavid, and I actually do respond back when you snap me or send me a message on Instagram.

01:07:41.340 With that being said, have a great day today.

01:07:43.060 Take care, everybody.

01:07:43.780 Bye-bye.

Valuetainment - February 06, 2019

Episode 263： Highest Paid Mafia Boss Tells the TRUTH About the Life

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