Valuetainment - Episode 292： General McChrystal - The Myth & Reality of Leadership

00:00:00.000 30 seconds. One time for the underdog. Ignition sequence start. Let me see you put them up. Reach the sky, turn the stars up above. Cause it's one time for the underdog. One time for the underdog.

00:00:16.820 I'm Patrick Bedevia, host of Valuetainment. Today I'm sitting down with General McChrystal, four-star general who reported directly to Barack Obama. And then he had a follow now. But afterwards he wrote a bunch of books on leadership. Some of his philosophies about leadership can help you in the world of business.

00:00:31.080 There's only 14 four-star generals at any given time in the U.S. Army. And today I have the privilege and the honor to sit down with a four-star general, General McChrystal. General, thank you so much for making the time to be a guest on Valuetainment.

00:00:44.880 Pat called me Stan, please. Stan, no problem. Absolutely. I just want to make sure I pay that respect. Because when I was in the Army, you know, I was a Hummer mechanic. So, you know, on the Hummer mechanic you would see, that's a Colonel's Hummer. You know, that's a Captain's, that's a Lieutenant's. And then I would see General's star, but I never met a General. So for me it was always, you know, one day. And by the way, for you watching in the military, we used to say, be my little General. So Brigadier General, which is a one-star. Major General, which is a two-star. Lieutenant General, which is a three-star. And then a General is a four-star, which is...

00:01:14.860 You've been one of them. Before you become a four-star, I'd like to go back and kind of find out trends. I want to know what was it like in your transition and you becoming who you are today.

00:01:24.080 So let's go right all the way back to high school. Okay. If I was in high school with you, we're in 10th grade, 11th grade. Who were you in high school?

00:01:31.300 Yeah. In high school, I was very interested in sports. Okay. Played football, basketball, and baseball in high school. You know, I wasn't a star or anything like that, but that was what you did. I was a pretty good student. I didn't study that much, but I was smart enough to do okay.

00:01:48.140 I was very interested in history. My father was a soldier and he did two tours in Vietnam. And so during those years when he was going, I was very interested in what was going on in the world.

00:02:00.060 And of course, because I grew up in Arlington, Virginia in those years, we were close to Washington, D.C. A lot of history happened there.

00:02:07.140 When I was nine, Dr. Martin Luther King gave his famous speech at the Lincoln Memorial, I have a dream. I remember the night that Richard Nixon resigned from the presidency in 1974.

00:02:18.820 I remember 1968 after the assassination of Dr. King. Cities around the United States exploded, but Washington, D.C. exploded in violence and flames.

00:02:29.700 And so history seemed not only something that I enjoyed reading about, but it was also up close. It felt tangible.

00:02:35.860 How was it for you seeing that? And by the way, before that, were you history when you were younger?

00:02:41.580 Would your father sit with you and say, son, let me tell you what happened in Gettysburg. Let me tell you who the hero was here.

00:02:46.700 Was it that kind of relationship with your father?

00:02:48.660 Well, I was very close to my father. It was my mother who did that.

00:02:52.100 My mother was always interested in history, particularly mythology, Greek and Roman myths, the heroes.

00:02:59.840 I remember being given books on William Wallace of Scotland, on Roland, on King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table.

00:03:08.440 How old were you during these?

00:03:09.860 Oh, I was like four and five.

00:03:11.600 Come on.

00:03:12.020 As soon as I started to read, at first I look at the pictures.

00:03:14.780 Four or five, you're being given Greek mythology?

00:03:16.360 Yeah. And we had this wonderful book. I still have it to this day. It's published in 1929. It's called Greek Tales for Tiny Tots.

00:03:24.960 And it's got these simplified stories with hand-drawn pictures of Perseus, Theseus, Achilles, Atlas.

00:03:31.580 And I still have it. I was read to it by my mother. Then I read it to my son when he was at a young age.

00:03:38.000 And then recently, I've started reading it to my oldest granddaughter.

00:03:41.380 When you're reading that, what did it do to you? Was it like, I want to one day be a hero?

00:03:46.700 I want to one day be somebody that, like, what inspirations did you get from reading those stories?

00:03:52.340 Or was it more your mom was sharing these stories because she wanted to learn to certain values, principles, virtues that are going to stay with you for a long time to come?

00:04:00.840 What feelings were you getting from hearing these stories?

00:04:02.760 Well, it's interesting. My mother never made that open. She never said, I want you to be like this.

00:04:08.240 I think she liked the romance of it. But I also think that she was imbuing in me the idea that I could make a difference, that I could matter, and that it was within my grasp, but it was inside me.

00:04:19.920 It was up to me if I was going to be something. Because if you read the mythology, most of the heroes and heroines are flawed.

00:04:26.560 They have some great strengths, and they have some great weaknesses. And usually their rise is up to something they've done, and their fall maybe as well.

00:04:34.040 It's personal responsibility. It's the idea that sometimes great events require you to step up and do things.

00:04:40.840 And so I think that that's what she believed in, and it rubbed off on me.

00:04:44.440 Okay. So you're in high school. You're an athlete. You said you weren't really much, you know, big with the grades. You're not really doing that well.

00:04:50.420 So did you know at that point that the moment I turned 17, 18, I'm going. I'm going to join the Army. You know, is that something that you were thinking about?

00:04:57.920 Yeah. From about age three, as soon as I was conscious, I wanted to be a soldier.

00:05:02.760 People would ask me, what are you going to be at probably age five? I said, I'm going to be a soldier.

00:05:06.600 And so when I was 17, I applied and was accepted to West Point, where my father had gone to school.

00:05:11.940 I didn't apply to any other colleges. Nowadays, kids apply to 10 or 12, and they've got safety ones. I had no plan.

00:05:18.040 I applied to West Point, and then I didn't get accepted until the last week of May of my senior year.

00:05:24.640 And you have to enter the first week of July. So in the spring, I'm going to West Point, and I don't hear from them.

00:05:30.360 And then you get to May, it starts to be a little white knuckle that maybe I wasn't going to get to do what I'd always dreamed of.

00:05:37.140 But it worked out.

00:05:38.240 So when you did, was there that moment of, you know, I'm following Dad's footsteps, and Dad was proud, you know, that you got accepted.

00:05:44.840 Is that kind of the feeling you had going through it?

00:05:46.760 I think so, but my father had had, I had two brothers older than me and a sister older than me.

00:05:53.100 And my oldest brother had gone to Washington University and then had gone into the Army through ROTC.

00:05:59.520 I had another brother who had gone to the prep school for West Point, and then had decided when he got to West Point that this wasn't for him, and so he left.

00:06:06.380 And I know my father was very hesitant to encourage or push me because I think he felt as though he might have pushed the brother right above me too much.

00:06:16.300 So when I was applying, my father didn't push me.

00:06:19.320 In fact, I kind of expected him to put his arm around me and let's go through this process.

00:06:23.380 He didn't do that. He didn't fight against it.

00:06:24.980 But I think he wanted to be sure that it was something that I wanted to do.

00:06:28.880 How did you take that?

00:06:29.860 I think I understood at the time what his motivation was.

00:06:33.580 And were your older brothers, the kind of brothers who are like, hey, you know, when are you going to be joining?

00:06:38.240 When are you going to do your part?

00:06:39.280 Was it that kind of a culture?

00:06:40.560 Was it that kind of a family?

00:06:41.460 No, it was never much talked about.

00:06:44.560 It was just considered sort of automatic.

00:06:47.500 My father was a soldier.

00:06:48.660 My father's father was a soldier.

00:06:50.580 My four brothers, I have five brothers, we're five boys and a girl, were all soldiers at some point.

00:06:56.400 My sister married a soldier.

00:06:58.040 When I got married later, I married the daughter of a career soldier and her three brothers are soldiers.

00:07:02.540 So it wasn't something you talked about.

00:07:05.220 You just automatically, what are you going to do in the Army?

00:07:08.060 What was your dad's rank, by the way?

00:07:09.480 How far along did he get?

00:07:10.860 He became a major general.

00:07:11.960 He was an infantryman who served in Korea and Vietnam, earned four silver stars in those wars, and then retired as a two-star general.

00:07:20.580 That's pretty solid right there when you're looking at it.

00:07:22.360 Now, how about his father, your grandfather?

00:07:24.720 He was a colonel.

00:07:25.580 He entered during the First World War and went up through the Second World War and retired as a colonel in the early 50s.

00:07:31.140 I never knew him.

00:07:32.100 He died when I was an infant, but I've still got pictures of him, and he was a very distinguished-looking guy.

00:07:38.920 My father used to describe him as not very flexible.

00:07:42.800 He's one of those guys that was sort of stereotypical Army officer of the 1920s and 30s.

00:07:49.240 Not a bad father, but not an easy-going guy.

00:07:52.280 My father, on the other hand, was, if you ever saw the movie The Great Santini with Robert Duvall as this hard-drinking, braggadocious officer, my father was the other end of the spectrum.

00:08:03.820 My father was incredibly quiet, incredibly self-effacing.

00:08:08.300 I never saw him talk about his combat.

00:08:11.020 Even in the years when I had shared that experience, we didn't sit down and talk about battle X or battle Y.

00:08:17.680 And as I bragged to people before, I never saw either of my parents do anything wrong in my whole life.

00:08:23.300 I never saw them keep extra change if somebody gave them the wrong change at a store.

00:08:27.320 I never saw them take a parking spot that they shouldn't have.

00:08:30.600 I never saw them cut a corner.

00:08:32.620 That makes quite an impression on kids because, you know, my father would never wink and a nod, we're going to cut the line.

00:08:38.120 That's just not either of my parents.

00:08:40.180 Was it a very conservative church-going family or no?

00:08:42.700 We were Episcopalians.

00:08:44.020 My father had been raised as a Catholic, and they settled on an Episcopalian, but we weren't deeply religious.

00:08:49.680 It was sort of a quiet, there are things you do, and there are things you don't do.

00:08:53.560 So it wasn't a daily Bible study with mom and dad and Sundays, no matter what, we're going to church, no matter what happens?

00:08:59.520 No, not at all.

00:09:00.720 In fact, my mother was very well-read, and she was very idealistic about a number of things.

00:09:06.420 When my father was off in the Vietnam War, my mother was actually in opposition to it.

00:09:10.980 And she was a strong believer in many liberal causes, particularly the civil rights movement.

00:09:16.080 She'd come from the South.

00:09:17.280 So she had this sort of fire-burning insider about social justice.

00:09:22.800 My father was less obvious about that, but my mother became a local politician, a ward boss, not a candidate. 0.72

00:09:29.100 So you always knew that she had things that motivated her that came from inside her in a place of deep beliefs.

00:09:38.600 Was your father also liberal on the policies as well?

00:09:42.580 He was, but you wouldn't have known it one way or another because he was a career soldier, so he never talked about it.

00:09:47.300 It wasn't until my father retired that I began to really know what political beliefs he had because he just didn't think it was appropriate.

00:09:54.100 So let me ask you a question.

00:09:55.280 You know, everybody, I grew up, my mother's side, they were all communists.

00:09:58.420 My father's side, they were imperialists.

00:10:00.260 So I became a confusist, obviously.

00:10:01.900 I mean, I'm sitting in the middle.

00:10:03.120 One is saying rich people are greedy.

00:10:04.580 The other one is saying poor people are lazy.

00:10:06.340 I'm confused.

00:10:07.000 So who was right?

00:10:07.680 You know, I would sit there and I said, listen, both of these guys make a point.

00:10:12.700 So neither one of them is 100% right, but neither one of them is 100% wrong.

00:10:16.420 There's some point in there that it makes sense.

00:10:18.220 Which one of the, I believe you're a registered Democrat.

00:10:21.540 I think I saw that you're probably more on the left than you are on the right.

00:10:25.860 I'm an independent.

00:10:27.040 Okay, so got it.

00:10:28.020 I will say that on many things, I probably side a bit more with, you know, a liberal progressive side.

00:10:35.140 What would you say those would be?

00:10:36.320 If you were to say two or three items, what would you say those would be?

00:10:38.760 On many of the social things, I believe in a woman's right to choose.

00:10:41.720 Okay.

00:10:42.120 I believe that 49,000 Americans being killed by guns in a year is too many.

00:10:46.960 Now, I'm not a person who says we've got to do away with all guns.

00:10:49.880 I've got to say we have to be sane about how we deal with firearms in America.

00:10:54.760 And it should begin not from hardline positions on the left or right, but from an understanding that that's too many people dying every year.

00:11:02.400 I'm pretty liberal on a lot of social issues about rights for everyone.

00:11:06.740 I think everybody should have rights.

00:11:08.800 I don't think it's our right to take somebody else's rights away.

00:11:12.360 On the other hand, I believe a lot in personal responsibility.

00:11:14.720 If your room is messy and you don't pick it up, that's your responsibility to do that.

00:11:19.300 I think that we have individual responsibilities that go into broader community responsibilities.

00:11:25.720 I think that right now, we probably don't take our broader social or community responsibilities as seriously as we should.

00:11:33.120 We are our brother's keepers.

00:11:34.960 If other Americans need something, that is something we need to pay attention to.

00:11:39.900 You don't think we're doing that?

00:11:40.820 Well, I don't think we do it as well as we could.

00:11:43.180 I think that we sometimes get inside our world and it's natural and you start to protect what you have or protect those closest to you.

00:11:51.720 But if you think about what a nation is, it's a covenant between people who become citizens.

00:11:57.160 And really what's implied there is we each get some rights.

00:12:00.620 We get the right to be protected.

00:12:02.060 We get legal rights.

00:12:03.060 We have some responsibilities that go with that, like voting and paying taxes.

00:12:06.920 But I think our responsibilities go a bit wider.

00:12:09.640 I think our responsibilities actually go.

00:12:12.420 They're implied to everybody.

00:12:14.620 If I need something that I think society needs to consider, if it's a real need, we have a responsibility to take care of each other.

00:12:23.220 That's a good point.

00:12:23.920 I think the challenge is how do you differentiate between the key word was a real need.

00:12:29.140 How do we differentiate between a real need?

00:12:30.580 Because I lived in a city where I saw a lot of social workers were being paid money on the side to be able to get you on Social Security without you doing it.

00:12:40.480 And I saw a lot of people doing that.

00:12:42.500 And so all of a sudden I'm like, oh my gosh, I mean, what is going on here?

00:12:45.440 These people don't need it.

00:12:46.640 They can work in their 40s.

00:12:47.980 But why are they going on Social Security?

00:12:49.520 And all of a sudden taxpayers are paying for it.

00:12:51.020 Those dynamics kind of got me to say, how do we figure out what is a real need?

00:12:55.500 How do we do that?

00:12:56.420 It's incredibly hard.

00:12:58.240 So there's no simple solution.

00:12:59.540 I would say that if someone has the ability to perform in society, they have the responsibility to do that and they ought to be held accountable to that.

00:13:06.520 On the other hand, there are a lot of people in society who don't have that ability.

00:13:09.600 And young children often pay the bills for parents or anyone who brings them in the world and won't do that part or can't do that part.

00:13:19.740 I mean, it can be a pretty tough world if you don't get some lucky breaks as you go along.

00:13:24.580 So I think we have a responsibility to look at that.

00:13:26.840 There's going to be abuses.

00:13:28.020 There always will be.

00:13:29.260 Any system you create, there are abuses.

00:13:31.920 There were also abuses in the financial system in which people with huge amounts of money took huge liberties and corrupted the system.

00:13:41.240 So it happens all along the spectrum.

00:13:44.080 That doesn't mean we should step away from the requirement to take care of each other.

00:13:48.700 It means that we've got to be realistic about human nature.

00:13:51.700 We've got to spend the time and effort to put systems in.

00:13:55.280 And we can't get frustrated when things aren't perfect.

00:13:59.660 I don't think they will be.

00:14:00.900 I don't think people are perfect.

00:14:02.840 But I think that's no reason to suddenly write off, you know, the other part or any parts of our society.

00:14:08.880 I agree with you there.

00:14:09.720 So I was, my parents were divorced growing up.

00:14:12.540 I had a 1.8 GPA in high school.

00:14:14.920 And I looked at a lot of my friends.

00:14:16.740 And I said, you know, what's going to go, what's going to happen here with me?

00:14:19.800 And a lot of my friends would say, be careful with Patrick because Patrick's probably going to go into drugs.

00:14:24.340 He could be a statistic.

00:14:25.280 He could be this.

00:14:26.080 And by the way, they had a valid point because I was, you know, headed in that direction.

00:14:29.760 And one day, you know, recruiter Jesus Guerra kept following up with me.

00:14:33.240 And one night I drank a little too much.

00:14:35.580 My sister almost got evicted. 0.95

00:14:37.020 I had all these people.

00:14:37.820 We're putting a party at the apartment complex.

00:14:39.440 I woke up in the morning.

00:14:40.300 They stole my 1983 Toyota Corolla.

00:14:43.240 We found it six months later when I was in boot camp.

00:14:45.820 We found it in T01 out of all the places.

00:14:47.960 Well, I finally found this 83 Corolla that was probably worth like $800.

00:14:51.440 But then that day I said, I'm going to join the army.

00:14:53.520 So I made that decision.

00:14:54.440 I went in the army.

00:14:55.200 And then from that route, I got out, went and became an entrepreneur.

00:14:58.000 You know, I think sometimes when you, I think the battle becomes, so, you know, capitalism

00:15:03.640 works because the individual must get some credit, but the collective wouldn't happen

00:15:08.060 without the collective, right?

00:15:09.620 And this is the battle we have.

00:15:10.780 This is why we have a left and a right.

00:15:11.980 So, you know, you being independent, I'm a registered independent myself.

00:15:14.740 So it's interesting when you're saying that.

00:15:16.940 Going back to the guns, for a person that's a four-star general, you're not saying let's

00:15:21.680 ban guns.

00:15:22.340 You're not saying let's ban semi-automatic weapons.

00:15:24.800 You're not saying that, right?

00:15:26.300 No, I'm not.

00:15:27.000 Because I don't know, statistically, you'll find that semi-automatic weapons aren't the

00:15:32.060 cause of most deaths in America.

00:15:34.280 I like the idea that people say that there are some people who should never have any guns

00:15:39.680 and that there are some guns that nobody should ever have on the spectrum.

00:15:44.720 I think if we really want to protect the Second Amendment, we better protect it from its excesses.

00:15:50.260 You know, when they did the Second Amendment, if you study it, to, you know, allow for a

00:15:56.300 well-regulated militia, we also had a period when you had very crude musket, typically smooth

00:16:02.640 bore weapons.

00:16:04.180 And so you didn't have the ability to do mass.

00:16:06.040 And the idea was not that everybody would be able to shoot their neighbor.

00:16:10.160 It was to prevent a government becoming too strong and therefore being able to press the

00:16:15.220 states and oppress local areas because the militias would be strong enough to counterbalance.

00:16:19.480 Technology has gone a long way since then.

00:16:22.860 And so right now, a single individual can be very, very dangerous to everyone else and

00:16:28.460 a lot of people who don't deserve it.

00:16:29.920 And so I think society has the responsibility to look at firearms in society and protect

00:16:37.260 all of us as a group.

00:16:38.560 If we protect everybody's right to have a tank or a thermonuclear weapon, pretty soon

00:16:44.340 that small percentage who don't have control, who use them are going to create, you know,

00:16:48.560 unrecoverable damage.

00:16:50.420 So I think we need to avoid the excesses that some people see in the Second Amendment.

00:16:55.100 You know, hunting's fine, target marketmanship, fine.

00:16:57.820 Even the defense of your family and your home.

00:17:00.200 There's nothing wrong with that.

00:17:01.340 I mean, that's part of your responsibility.

00:17:02.540 It doesn't sound like you have any concerns.

00:17:03.680 Are you saying maybe a little bit deeper of a background check would be, is that kind of,

00:17:07.400 is it more technical?

00:17:08.320 Like, maybe you buy a gun, you don't get it for 48 hours.

00:17:11.140 Is that kind of where you're...

00:17:12.320 It's that kind of thing.

00:17:13.500 I also think that registration of guns is not a bad thing.

00:17:16.560 I think if you are a responsible enough person to own a gun, having it registered shouldn't

00:17:22.000 be a problem.

00:17:23.160 I know there's always the concern that the government's going to come take them away,

00:17:26.160 but the reality is that the government wanted to take weapons away.

00:17:29.080 The government has so much power, talking about just physical power, they could do that.

00:17:33.300 So, I don't think that we should be opposed to controlling weapons in a careful way.

00:17:38.800 We control a lot of things.

00:17:40.020 We control many drugs.

00:17:41.220 We control types of food.

00:17:43.100 We control things.

00:17:44.120 And so, we ought to look at anything that's got this kind of power ought to have maturity

00:17:49.000 built into it.

00:17:49.840 Why do you think there's a challenge with wanting to, you know, impose deeper background checks

00:17:55.580 or, you know, 48 hours of getting your gun versus just getting it right off the bat?

00:17:59.700 In Texas, I can go buy a gun and walk out and I have something.

00:18:02.120 You know, I'm living in Texas, but I also lived in L.A. and L.A. had to wait some time

00:18:06.720 to get it.

00:18:07.600 Why do you think there's a pushback with that?

00:18:09.040 Do you think it's really the fact that government's going to have too much control over the people

00:18:12.640 that believe in pro-gun, the NRA, those folks?

00:18:14.840 I think it is the fact that the argument or the discussion on guns has become an argument

00:18:19.400 to either end.

00:18:20.900 And there's a perception by some people that any move towards more regulation equals a move

00:18:27.040 towards total ban on firearms.

00:18:29.160 I don't really think that that's the intent of the vast majority, any kind of majority

00:18:33.500 of Americans.

00:18:34.300 We sometimes characterize it that way.

00:18:36.400 And it stops us from doing common sense measures that need to be done.

00:18:40.960 Fair enough.

00:18:41.940 Why don't we talk leadership since you have so much experience with that?

00:18:44.280 I mean, that's something where I believe I was earlier tweeted a couple of days ago.

00:18:49.340 I said, if there's two skillset that'll help you advance in life, one is learning how to sell

00:18:52.440 because everybody that becomes a president, they know how to sell.

00:18:56.100 You know, President Trump knows how to sell, President Obama knows how to sell, Bush knows

00:18:59.740 how to sell, and President Clinton knows how to sell. 0.97

00:19:01.780 But the other one is leadership.

00:19:02.780 I think leadership's the one that will help you go way farther in life than anything else

00:19:07.220 will be.

00:19:07.860 I'd want to go a couple things.

00:19:09.500 One, obviously you had your career, but prior to going to that, I'd want to talk to you

00:19:12.720 about how it was having a father who was a two-star general.

00:19:16.280 What were some of the leadership things you took away from him?

00:19:19.260 I mean, when you're saying you never saw your dad wink and we're going to go, you know,

00:19:23.220 the car or change or money or any of that stuff, that's an incredible example of parents you

00:19:29.660 had.

00:19:29.940 I mean, that's unbelievable to have someone like that.

00:19:31.980 But were there any conversations or things you saw when your dad was making certain decisions

00:19:35.480 saying, those qualities are going to help me advance as a leader in life?

00:19:38.700 It's interesting.

00:19:39.920 When I was young, I saw my father treat people, how he interacted with everyone.

00:19:45.000 And he was always courteous and he was always thoughtful.

00:19:47.660 He was never bombastic.

00:19:49.260 I never saw my father give an order.

00:19:51.820 I mean, maybe me and my brothers were told to do or stop doing certain things sometimes.

00:19:55.580 But it wasn't the way he led.

00:19:57.380 He was almost gentle.

00:19:59.980 And yet in combat, I'm told that he was not.

00:20:02.160 He was almost gentle in how he dealt with everyone, very respectful.

00:20:06.260 And at the end of the day, I think what he taught me is people follow you because they

00:20:11.560 believe in you.

00:20:12.360 They believe that you're going to lead them somewhere they need to go.

00:20:15.360 You may be able to direct them for very short periods, but if you direct someone, they'll

00:20:21.400 typically go as far as you can see and then they'll stop because they're not tied to you.

00:20:27.560 And so what he taught me was leadership is actually that.

00:20:30.280 It begins with the leader, but the leader has to create a relationship with the followers

00:20:34.760 that is respectful, that is genuine, that is empathetic on both sides so the leader can

00:20:41.000 understand what the followers' perceptions can be and what their position is.

00:20:46.100 And I think vice versa.

00:20:46.980 You've got to be human enough with the people you interact with for them to understand you.

00:20:51.020 If you're standing too high on the pedestal and you are a godlike figure, there may be

00:20:56.200 a sort of fascination and reverence for you.

00:20:59.560 But I don't think it's the same as the deep bonds of leadership where people will do anything

00:21:04.320 for you, give you the last drop out of the quarantine or risk their lives.

00:21:08.480 So who were some of the military leaders you admired?

00:21:10.520 You read a lot.

00:21:11.240 So was there anyone that you said, you know, if there's somebody, I mean, outside of your

00:21:14.820 father, if there's somebody you read upon, I said, I'd want to one day be recognized and

00:21:18.580 take this style of leadership.

00:21:19.900 Were there any names?

00:21:21.160 Yeah, there's one that I lower level, I've saved lower level.

00:21:24.240 It's a brigadier general in the Civil War, a guy named John Buford.

00:21:27.740 He was Southern by birth, but he stayed in the United States Army.

00:21:30.680 He had gone to West Point.

00:21:31.740 He had served before the Civil War.

00:21:33.720 And then he became a cavalry division commander.

00:21:35.980 His force would often range out in front of the Army of the Potomac War on the flanks and

00:21:41.220 do independent action.

00:21:42.220 And in the Battle of Gettysburg, he goes in front of the Army.

00:21:46.160 He picks ground that is different than the Army had planned to fight on.

00:21:50.320 He decides that this is the best place for the Army of the Potomac to take on Robert E.

00:21:54.640 Lee's Army of Northern Virginia.

00:21:56.160 And he makes a decision.

00:21:57.200 He's a 37-year-old officer.

00:21:59.560 And he makes a decision to commit the 90,000-man Army of the Potomac to battle.

00:22:04.800 He didn't have the authority to do that.

00:22:06.560 But he did it because he had a great relationship with his superiors in the force.

00:22:11.080 He thought he was doing the right thing.

00:22:13.580 They had enough trust in him to then bring the Army forward just on his word.

00:22:18.360 And everybody on both sides knew that the Battle of Gettysburg had every likelihood of deciding

00:22:23.220 the outcome of the Civil War.

00:22:24.840 And so think about it.

00:22:26.100 If you're 37 and you commit the Army and maybe the nation.

00:22:31.720 90,000.

00:22:32.540 That's right.

00:22:33.340 To the critical moment of this four-and-a-half-year war.

00:22:37.600 And he did it.

00:22:39.180 And then six months later, he died.

00:22:41.220 And there's some said he died of a form of influenza.

00:22:45.020 Some said he died literally of exhaustion because he had served so hard and so courageously.

00:22:50.900 And then he died in the fall of 1863 and he was deeply mourned.

00:22:54.240 What do you admire about him?

00:22:55.620 What do you admire about that decision?

00:22:57.160 Is it the fact that he was alone when we made a decision and maybe people disagreed with

00:23:01.060 him?

00:23:01.360 What part of it was it?

00:23:02.260 I think that he had the courage to make a decision which might have been wrong.

00:23:06.520 He had the courage to communicate his decisions to his bosses, but he had to make it independently.

00:23:12.280 And he was willing to accept responsibility for it.

00:23:14.680 The first thing is he committed himself and his cavalry division to an uneven battle against

00:23:20.600 approaching Confederates.

00:23:21.840 So they could have been wiped out and killed.

00:23:23.960 So for the first morning of the battle, what he does is he has this very uneven defense where

00:23:29.160 he's holding on by his fingernails, he and his cavalry division.

00:23:32.860 Then when the Army comes up, they commit to what he had said.

00:23:35.980 So the willingness to commit his reputation, his personal safety and everything to that

00:23:41.840 kind of decision for the nation, I think was really admirable.

00:23:45.520 I think it's hard for us to sometimes admire when leaders make a decision that we don't

00:23:49.380 support because it could go either way.

00:23:51.680 Because that story could have gone the complete opposite way, right?

00:23:54.100 And then, you know, John Buford is a whole different story where a failure in leadership,

00:23:58.660 failure in decision.

00:23:59.480 How do you think we as citizens ought to look at that if one of our leaders, let's just

00:24:03.380 say, didn't make the right decision?

00:24:04.640 How do we handle that?

00:24:05.600 Yeah, it's a fair case.

00:24:07.160 I think that the thing about failure in decision making is if it's done from the right intentions,

00:24:13.700 if it's done with a responsible mindset, if you decide to take the left fork instead of

00:24:18.960 the right fork, but you tried to do the right thing, I think we ought to celebrate it.

00:24:23.280 I think we ought to say, okay.

00:24:24.820 Fair enough.

00:24:25.180 Yeah.

00:24:25.680 Because if they get the right one, that might have been dumb luck. 0.93

00:24:29.260 You know, they might have flipped a coin and they dumb luck and we tell them they're

00:24:32.080 they're a great leader and a hero.

00:24:33.800 But people have got to make decisions.

00:24:35.860 One of the things I found in organizations and in the government is there was a tendency

00:24:40.020 to do what I call decision avoidance.

00:24:42.700 And somebody would come to you, Pat, and they'd say, we want to do this.

00:24:45.600 And what you might do if you wanted to avoid a decision, you'd say, bring me more information.

00:24:51.280 And in the time it took them to bring you more information, the opportunity came and

00:24:55.760 went or the risk was there.

00:24:57.580 And then you didn't approve it and you didn't disapprove it.

00:25:02.260 What you did is you made no decision.

00:25:04.320 And so you couldn't be held responsible.

00:25:07.280 And I see that in organizations sometimes where we put leaders in places and they practice

00:25:12.120 that kind of avoiding decisions.

00:25:15.360 And it's not what we hire leaders for.

00:25:17.520 Is there any examples of that?

00:25:18.920 I used to see it in the Pentagon all the time.

00:25:21.000 And bureaucrats in government are often not rewarded for decisions.

00:25:26.900 And so they try to avoid making them as often as they can.

00:25:31.020 We had a time we were going after it.

00:25:32.960 That's so interesting.

00:25:33.720 You say that they are not rewarded for making decisions.

00:25:37.580 So I'm better off not making them because if I make the wrong one, it could hurt my legacy

00:25:41.140 or my career.

00:25:41.880 Exactly.

00:25:42.660 And they're not held to account for avoidance.

00:25:44.600 We were trying to do an operation across the border to go after an al-Qaeda interact leader.

00:25:51.040 And the way we got around that was we got the people who were going to do the op, just

00:25:55.360 two operators from Delta Force.

00:25:57.600 Then we had the training command all on this conference call.

00:26:00.420 And at the top was President Barack Obama.

00:26:02.360 We started with a commander who's going to lead this.

00:26:04.600 We say, we want to get approval for this.

00:26:06.320 We want it to go forward.

00:26:07.200 And he gives this briefing.

00:26:09.440 And then somebody asked a question.

00:26:10.620 It was one of those questions, sort of decision avoidance.

00:26:12.940 Well, what if this, this?

00:26:14.980 And he said, well, let me ask him.

00:26:16.280 And he went down to the two operators who were going to do the operation.

00:26:19.080 Jim, Bob, what are you guys going to do in that case?

00:26:21.740 And they answered the question.

00:26:22.900 President Obama then comes on the line and says, okay, has anybody got any more questions?

00:26:27.460 And basically saying, everybody, if you don't have a real valid question, shut up.

00:26:32.160 And in a moment, in about 30 minutes, we got approval for an operation that would have

00:26:35.760 taken three months in the norm of bureaucratic system.

00:26:39.200 And it was brilliant.

00:26:39.920 Now, you can't do that for every...

00:26:41.380 Do you think a part of the story, I had Chris Peranto on one time.

00:26:45.280 Chris Peranto was the, from the movie 13 Hours.

00:26:47.940 I don't know if you remember the movie 13 Hours.

00:26:49.920 What do you think?

00:26:50.560 Was there any part of indecision in that situation that we had?

00:26:53.660 I think there, there's no doubt some.

00:26:56.140 Okay.

00:26:56.360 But the reality is, I think, that that Benghazi has become so politicized that it's hard for

00:27:02.260 people to talk about it really.

00:27:03.440 In reality, when I think of Benghazi, I think of Ambassador Chris Stevens, a brave U.S. diplomat.

00:27:10.140 He goes to a place, Benghazi, which is less secure than other places in Libya.

00:27:15.460 And he chooses to because he thinks that's where he can execute some of the business he

00:27:19.780 needs to do.

00:27:20.340 It takes a lot of courage to do what he did, by the way, to be where he's at.

00:27:22.880 There wasn't enough security.

00:27:24.460 And some of the Libyan security melted away.

00:27:26.980 And so, a very difficult situation happened and Chris Stevens is killed.

00:27:31.260 Now, there are two ways we could have looked at this.

00:27:33.700 One was to start a lot of investigation, pointing fingers and this and this, which is

00:27:37.520 unfortunate what we did.

00:27:38.560 The other is, we could have said, here's a brave ambassador who went in harm's way to

00:27:43.820 do the nation's bidding.

00:27:44.820 He was killed.

00:27:45.800 We had to honor him.

00:27:46.680 We had to build a statue to him.

00:27:48.060 We had to hope that we have a thousand more ambassadors like him.

00:27:51.660 Because if we don't want our ambassadors to be in any risk, we had to put them all in

00:27:55.340 Ohio.

00:27:55.820 They just won't be very effective in dealing with the countries.

00:28:00.160 So, we've got to understand that there's risk in doing things.

00:28:04.220 And what we should do is celebrate the people who understand the mission is worthy of the

00:28:09.380 risk.

00:28:09.560 That's interesting.

00:28:10.120 It took the attention away from him being a hero into it being politicized.

00:28:14.700 And unfortunately, that happens way too often on both sides, by the way.

00:28:17.340 You see it all the time.

00:28:18.720 And I don't know necessarily how that's avoidable because typically both sides do because there's

00:28:23.460 probably some kind of an election going on.

00:28:25.660 Let's go back to some of the experiences you had as a leader yourself.

00:28:28.900 So, West Point, since three years old, I'm going to be a soldier when I grow up.

00:28:32.100 You get accepted.

00:28:33.000 You got the news.

00:28:33.900 It's awesome.

00:28:35.020 You're going through it.

00:28:36.140 You're an officer.

00:28:36.920 So, from that moment, was it something like, I can't wait for my first deployment?

00:28:41.400 Is that kind of what you have?

00:28:42.780 Because, you know, obviously, I have to get experience to see what my dad went through,

00:28:46.240 what my brothers are going through.

00:28:47.400 How soon afterwards did you get some experience?

00:28:49.800 Well, it took a long time.

00:28:51.060 But I'm going to back you up just a little bit, Pat, because I went to West Point to

00:28:54.980 be my father.

00:28:56.280 He was a combat veteran.

00:28:57.540 He was an officer.

00:28:58.240 You went to West Point to be your father.

00:28:59.360 And so, I didn't go to West Point to be a West Point cadet.

00:29:02.740 And that's an interesting thing, because when I went to West Point, I arrived at age 17,

00:29:07.380 and West Point was 170 years old when I arrived.

00:29:10.800 And they took the place very seriously, and I didn't.

00:29:14.800 And so, I got there thinking I was going to sort of cruise in, high five for four years

00:29:18.140 and move on.

00:29:18.900 I ran into some issues.

00:29:20.440 I had problems with grades.

00:29:22.140 I didn't do well in math.

00:29:23.360 I didn't study like I should have.

00:29:24.760 I had significant conduct or discipline problems.

00:29:29.480 Really?

00:29:30.100 Yeah.

00:29:30.580 Can you elaborate?

00:29:31.720 Oh, yeah.

00:29:32.840 The first summer I got there, in Beast Barracks, a friend of mine and I got what we call slugged,

00:29:40.060 a big punishment for disapprobation towards a cadet superior.

00:29:43.640 And I didn't even know what disapprobation was.

00:29:45.440 It's disrespect.

00:29:46.660 Some guy came up, and we were doing something he didn't like, and he yelled at us.

00:29:50.600 And then he walked away.

00:29:51.780 And he walked away, and we thought, we looked at each other, and we sort of gave him the,

00:29:55.300 you know, and we laughed.

00:29:56.560 He had circled around through this bathroom and caught us doing that.

00:30:00.020 So, boom, I'm slammed with my first slug.

00:30:02.300 And then I got three more slugs in my first year and a half there.

00:30:06.580 So, I became what they call a century man.

00:30:08.520 I walked more than 100 hours on the area in the first.

00:30:11.720 Let me ask you, at this time, do they know who your father is or no?

00:30:14.200 Like, because if they know who your father is, they're going to give you a harder time,

00:30:16.960 you know, a tougher time than somebody else.

00:30:18.620 I think people knew.

00:30:19.860 I didn't think they cared.

00:30:20.860 Got it.

00:30:21.300 You know, I think they were happy to give me a hard time or not.

00:30:24.340 No matter what.

00:30:24.940 I brought that on myself.

00:30:26.220 Got it.

00:30:26.680 I was the hard head who made it really tough.

00:30:29.580 So, my first two years at West Point, I came very close to flunking out academically.

00:30:33.600 I came within a few demerits of being thrown out for conduct.

00:30:38.360 Robert E. Lee went four years to West Point and never got a single demerit.

00:30:41.120 I became within just a handful of demerits of getting thrown out, which is a lot more than that.

00:30:46.500 Then a couple things happened.

00:30:47.760 I met my now wife of almost 42 years when I was a sophomore, and suddenly there was kind

00:30:54.500 of a different focus on my life, and that was good.

00:30:58.120 It normally happens.

00:30:58.960 And then at the beginning of my junior year, I had a new tactical officer come in to take

00:31:03.860 our company, a guy named Dave Barato, and he came out of Special Forces, and he sat down

00:31:09.580 at the beginning of the year for a counseling session with each cadet individually.

00:31:13.900 And I remember sitting down, expecting to be told how bad I was, and he goes, I think

00:31:18.860 you've got amazing potential.

00:31:20.120 You're going to be a great cadet and a great Army officer.

00:31:22.780 And I remember looking over, I said, are you looking at my file?

00:31:26.180 You know who I am?

00:31:28.040 And he goes, yeah, I know who you are.

00:31:30.080 Let me tell you what I think you're good at, and let me tell you where you've stumbled.

00:31:34.120 And it was amazing.

00:31:34.920 I remember walking out of there thinking, wow, here's somebody who is, and I'd never been

00:31:39.800 treated badly before, but here's a guy who just said, all that stuff's kind of irrelevant

00:31:44.700 because you've got things that are going to make you great.

00:31:47.380 Was that the first experience of a non-family member doing that to you in the military?

00:31:52.200 Yeah, it was.

00:31:52.800 Okay, that's why you remembered.

00:31:54.020 And I'm still friends with him to this day.

00:31:56.960 And he was just that kind of motivational leader and a lot of experience that I hope to get.

00:32:01.580 So I then graduate after four years.

00:32:03.220 I go into the Army, the 82nd Airborne Division in Fort Bragg, and I was excited about that.

00:32:08.140 But it was the 1970s Army, and the 1970s Army was struggling.

00:32:11.960 It was post-Vietnam.

00:32:13.460 We had drug problems.

00:32:14.960 We didn't have a lot of money.

00:32:16.420 Leadership was pretty uneven.

00:32:18.200 It wasn't the 82nd Airborne of the movies that I had seen and that I wanted to be.

00:32:22.520 So when you went 82nd, you were second lieutenant.

00:32:24.620 I was brand new second lieutenant.

00:32:26.240 I joined the 82nd, and it was a great experience, but it was certainly not as good.

00:32:32.500 The troops weren't as polished art as I thought they'd be, but it was good leadership training.

00:32:37.460 I started to learn that the real thing about the Army, every soldier, if you think of soldiers, everybody dresses the same.

00:32:45.140 Everybody sort of has the weaknesses hidden behind a uniform and a rank and whatnot.

00:32:51.540 You look at Tory soldiers, they're all perfect.

00:32:53.420 Well, that's not real soldiers, as you know, Pat.

00:32:55.320 Real soldiers are a bunch of individuals, each with a life, a history, a background, problems.

00:33:00.660 And so when you get into the Army and you suddenly, my first platoon of paratroopers, you know, I joke with them.

00:33:06.060 They were a bunch of Yehoos. 1.00

00:33:07.200 There was heavy drinking. 0.99

00:33:08.400 There was heavy foolishness.

00:33:09.600 When they ran out of beer money at the end of the year or at the end of the month, they had this electrical cord.

00:33:14.460 They'd plug in a socket, and it was stripped down, and they could literally send electrical current through the group of them.

00:33:20.380 And they'd get in a circle, and they'd close the thing.

00:33:22.900 And I mean, it's funny, but they were, a lot of them, from tough backgrounds, and they would do anything for you if they trusted you.

00:33:31.380 And so the reality is, it reminds you, you don't have to go to college, you didn't have to have the opportunities I'd had to be a really good paratrooper.

00:33:40.520 The difference is what you did or didn't do on a daily basis.

00:33:43.940 And you've got that choice every instant to do the right thing or the wrong thing.

00:33:47.820 And so you watch that, and you start to get away from the idea that the leader is the leader because of their family background, their social caste, their education, or anything else.

00:34:03.220 The leader is the leader because they decide to be, because they accept the responsibility.

00:34:08.800 It means that the leader, when it's difficult, has got to stand a little taller.

00:34:12.560 The leader may have to carry a little more load than is theirs necessarily.

00:34:16.320 The leader's got to accept danger.

00:34:20.040 The leader's got to do things that aren't convenient.

00:34:23.400 I remember one of the first things the second lieutenant does in a good light infantry unit is learn that during the field, they have to inspect their soldier's feet.

00:34:30.840 And I'm talking, you take the boots off, you take the socks off, you get up close.

00:34:34.840 Because the soldier's feet are the health of a light infantry unit.

00:34:38.200 If their feet are wet, blistered, or any problems, they're not going to get from A to B.

00:34:43.320 And yet, it's not something you direct down, the lieutenant checks the feet and get right up close and personal with the nasty feet of a bunch of 20-year-olds.

00:34:51.880 That's not beneath you.

00:34:53.260 That is what you're supposed to do.

00:34:55.820 That is the kind of responsibility.

00:34:58.480 Those are biblical principles, right?

00:34:59.840 That's right.

00:35:00.160 There are a lot of biblical principles.

00:35:02.340 Let me ask you, for someone, there's no way you became a four-star general without being tested a few times, right?

00:35:08.520 What were some of the times, I mean, there's only 14 of you.

00:35:11.740 I mean, we have to really, there's 330 million people who live in America, 14 four-stars.

00:35:15.400 It's, it's, it's even a bigger deal than being a billionaire because the percentage are working so against you.

00:35:23.020 But what were some times when you were going where you're sitting there and you have to make a tough decision,

00:35:27.680 you don't have time to call a friend or somebody to consult, and you have to make that decision.

00:35:32.900 What were those moments for you?

00:35:34.700 Yeah, I go through a couple.

00:35:35.640 One, I was a lieutenant in that same battalion in the 82nd.

00:35:38.240 We were going out to do a mortar live fire, and I was a very exacting officer, so I said,

00:35:43.880 when we go out to do a mortar live fire, we will dig pits.

00:35:46.740 The mortars go in, which is what you do in combat, which is a lot of work.

00:35:49.740 They're big, round holes.

00:35:51.520 So before you do it, everybody's got to get there, and this small platoon's got to dig for three or four hours straight to get down,

00:35:58.160 and then before we can fire the mortars.

00:36:00.320 So we go out to this place, and I say, okay, we're going to dig the mortars in.

00:36:03.840 They were used to me at that point, and they said, okay.

00:36:05.840 And then we go to open the range with range control, and range control says, no, you don't have that firing point.

00:36:12.440 And I said, whoa, what do you mean?

00:36:14.080 So we got in the vehicle.

00:36:15.120 My platoon sergeant and I was just a little older than me, and we drove to range control.

00:36:19.100 We said, we do, and he says, no, you don't.

00:36:20.780 He showed the paperwork.

00:36:22.100 I had filled the paperwork out wrong.

00:36:24.000 We were supposed to be at a different firing point, and I said, well, hey, help me out here.

00:36:28.480 I've already had my guys dig in.

00:36:29.860 Just change paperwork and we'll be good.

00:36:32.020 And they said, no, you're going to go to the one you've got.

00:36:34.180 So I went back, my platoon sergeant and I, first thing you had to do was take the mortars out of the thing and then fill in the holes, which took about an hour.

00:36:40.840 Put everything in the vehicles, move over to the correct point, you know, maybe half a mile away.

00:36:44.940 And when we got to the new point, it's now well after midnight.

00:36:47.780 It's cold.

00:36:48.840 It's wet.

00:36:49.620 What are we going to do?

00:36:51.040 And I remember sitting there thinking, I screwed up.

00:36:53.520 They've already dug in once.

00:36:54.600 They've gotten the training.

00:36:55.360 I had always said that when we shoot mortars, we're going to do it right.

00:36:58.160 We're going to dig in.

00:36:58.920 So I remember saying, okay, we're going to dig in. 1.00

00:37:01.960 And they're thinking, holy smoke, this idiot screwed it up. 1.00

00:37:05.600 Now we're going to pay the price. 1.00

00:37:07.780 The only thing I could do was dig with them, which is what I did.

00:37:10.460 But I think that, you know, I was glad I did it because at first it was not a happy place at first.

00:37:17.380 But then after they started doing it, they, I think they grudgingly accepted how difficult that decision was for me to make.

00:37:24.560 I'm the only officer.

00:37:25.440 I'm sort of ostracized. 1.00

00:37:26.700 And they, with a good humor, they said, okay, you know, we don't hate you for being stupid, you know. 1.00

00:37:31.460 And we dug in. 1.00

00:37:33.180 This is at Ford Breck.

00:37:34.340 Are you a first or second at that time?

00:37:35.840 I'm a second lieutenant.

00:37:36.500 Okay.

00:37:36.940 Yeah.

00:37:37.300 I don't have any stature.

00:37:39.860 And then later, a few years later, I was a captain.

00:37:42.040 And I came out of Korea.

00:37:43.740 I wanted to go to an infantry company and command a company.

00:37:47.800 I arrived to the post and I was told, no, you're not going to add to a company.

00:37:51.240 You're going to go to division staff and work this horrible job where most of the people up there had been fired.

00:37:56.800 It was my impression.

00:37:58.240 And I was just desperate not to get stuck in there and wanted to go.

00:38:02.260 So I spent about 10 days while they argued over where I was going to be assigned.

00:38:07.460 And then finally, at the end of the argument, I was told, okay, you're going to what they call Department of Plans and Training,

00:38:12.940 which I didn't want to go, be a staff officer.

00:38:15.940 The guy who ran it, this lieutenant colonel, had heard that I didn't want to be there.

00:38:20.300 So he already is sort of spring-loaded to be angry with me and not like me.

00:38:23.960 And I don't blame him.

00:38:25.220 He didn't want to be there either.

00:38:26.380 He wanted to be down in the battalion.

00:38:27.920 It's about late in the afternoon and all this argument.

00:38:30.940 I go in to report to him.

00:38:32.880 And I report in and said, okay, sir, you know, Captain McChrystal reporting.

00:38:37.300 And he looked at me and he says, you know, I heard you don't want to be here.

00:38:41.540 And in a split second, I said something, which for the rest of my life I've been happy about.

00:38:46.100 I said, sir, that's right.

00:38:48.040 I would love to be out in a rifle company, but I'm here.

00:38:51.360 And while I'm here, I'm going to work as hard as I possibly can with as good an attitude as I can possess for you.

00:39:00.160 That's what I'm going to do.

00:39:01.780 And I believe that if I do a good job, that over time, you'll take care of me and help me get to a company at some point.

00:39:08.520 And it was amazing to see the countenance.

00:39:10.220 And you told him that.

00:39:11.100 I told him that face to face.

00:39:12.440 I screwed up the courage and said it.

00:39:14.380 And this lieutenant colonel's countenance changed.

00:39:17.220 And it was amazing.

00:39:18.340 He goes, you're right.

00:39:18.880 You mean respect.

00:39:19.520 Yeah.

00:39:19.980 He says, you're right.

00:39:21.720 Most of us don't want to be here.

00:39:23.440 And I certainly appreciate that that's the attitude you're bringing here.

00:39:26.660 And he was better than his word.

00:39:28.540 He took care of me.

00:39:29.560 I was there about seven months.

00:39:31.480 And then he architected me to get down to command a rifle company.

00:39:35.280 And he was a wonderful boss while I was there.

00:39:37.240 But it was one of those moments where I could have pouted and felt like I was getting screwed because other captains weren't having to do this.

00:39:45.340 But what was the point?

00:39:46.080 Instead, I was lucky enough to, in that moment, remember how he felt being there because he desperately didn't want to be there either.

00:39:54.400 And I learned a lot of leadership from him as well.

00:39:56.540 So it's those moments.

00:39:57.920 I got as many wrong as I got right.

00:40:00.300 I mean, you know, thanks for sharing that.

00:40:02.820 It's amazing when I was in, I just, I can't hear enough of these stories.

00:40:07.000 There's so many lessons in these stories, truly.

00:40:09.360 So many lessons because, you know, there's one thing in the world of business.

00:40:12.280 If you get something wrong, you're put out of business.

00:40:15.360 You know, if you get something wrong in the world of military and you're in war and line of fire, your life is done.

00:40:21.140 And not only your life being done, you could have all these soldiers that are reporting to their lives being in your hands.

00:40:25.680 So let's talk about your book.

00:40:27.280 I know you've written.

00:40:27.920 A few books.

00:40:28.780 The other book I saw, The Team of Teams.

00:40:30.700 I like how you put it, how the top down is a typical way.

00:40:33.540 Then the other way is the groups.

00:40:34.880 And then now it's, it's reporting.

00:40:37.880 It's almost like a flat system where you see a lot of Silicon Valley companies using.

00:40:41.800 I thought that was fascinating, by the way.

00:40:43.580 And I think people in business need to read The Team of Teams.

00:40:46.660 But your recent book, Leaders, let's talk about that.

00:40:48.820 Sure.

00:40:49.140 You know, what can I take away from reading the book and what inspired you want to write that book?

00:40:53.400 I've written three books.

00:40:54.620 My first was my memoirs and that's sort of your life story.

00:40:56.860 The second team of teams was a study in organizational leadership that's been amazingly successful because part of it's our story of transforming a military force, Joint Special Operations Command, in combat.

00:41:10.360 We changed how we operated, changed our culture, hugely.

00:41:15.100 And that's not common in the military world, what you did, because that's not, that's very unorthodox.

00:41:19.640 I'd never seen it before, but I was a part of this amazing group of SEALs, Delta Force, Rangers, aviators of just stunning quality, elite.

00:41:31.120 And we'd been the best in the world at what we did.

00:41:33.500 And suddenly in Iraq, starting about 2003, we found out that as good as we were, we were wrong for that task.

00:41:40.680 We were wrong for that challenge because the enemy had changed.

00:41:44.760 Information technology, Al-Qaeda in Iraq, became a completely different kind of foe.

00:41:49.500 And they were beating us.

00:41:51.120 And so our first response was, you know, how can this happen because we're Super Bowl victors?

00:41:56.080 We got to do this.

00:41:56.980 And then we realized that what we really had to do is look inside and become basketball players, which is hard to do to people who are proud and sad.

00:42:05.180 On that experience, when I left the service, we started studying whether that was unique to the military or special ops or even to warfare.

00:42:13.920 And what we found is it's not.

00:42:15.100 It's facing all organizations today.

00:42:17.460 It's complexity and speed.

00:42:18.460 And so Team of Teams connects those two.

00:42:22.000 It examines what happened to us and what happens in other business places.

00:42:26.440 And I've had more companies come to me and say, we run our business according to your book now.

00:42:31.460 And you know what's amazing?

00:42:32.600 It's easier to do in the world of business than military.

00:42:35.740 And the fact that you're in the military, to me, it's mind-boggling when you think about it.

00:42:39.240 It was, yeah, it's much harder in the military.

00:42:41.480 Because it's order, rank, who are you talking to, like that drop, you better listen or else threat.

00:42:46.280 It's a, so.

00:42:48.060 Many things are done by law.

00:42:49.940 And so there's all kinds of bumpers that stop you.

00:42:53.480 Even the assignment system where you put people through assignments quickly, it stops someone from being, I went to command JSOC for two years and stayed five.

00:43:00.620 But that never happens.

00:43:02.340 I was just this aberration during wartime where they let me stay to allow it to occur.

00:43:07.620 But we finished Team of Teams.

00:43:09.380 And I was 63 years old.

00:43:11.340 And I came to the conclusion that as sad as this sounds, after being taught leadership so many years and getting a chance to do it and write about it, I wasn't quite sure what leadership really is.

00:43:23.500 We started studying it.

00:43:24.620 And we went back to Plutarch, the first century Greek historian who wrote the first biographies.

00:43:29.820 And he paired Greek and Roman leaders together.

00:43:33.000 And for a century and a half, everybody read Plutarch.

00:43:37.640 Plutarch, Theodore Roosevelt carried it in his breast pocket, said he read it a thousand times and it's forever fresh.

00:43:43.940 Alexander Hamilton took notes about Plutarch at night when he was a young officer at Valley Forge when he had a lot of other stuff going on.

00:43:51.960 So this was seminal.

00:43:53.620 If we were 75 years ago, Pat, you and I would both have read it.

00:43:57.180 We'd have it on our bookshelves.

00:43:59.380 But nowadays it's sort of out of fashion.

00:44:01.480 We came to the conclusion that leadership isn't what we think it is.

00:44:05.760 And as we studied, we found out it never has been.

00:44:09.740 So what we did was we decided to use Plutarch's model of pairing leaders.

00:44:14.520 And we selected, first we selected 12 leaders in pairs.

00:44:18.580 We selected founders, Walt Disney and Coco Chanel.

00:44:21.940 We selected reformers, Martin Luther of the Protestant Reformation and Dr. Martin Luther King.

00:44:27.820 We selected heroes, Chinese admiral from the 15th century, Zhong Ha and Harriet Tubman.

00:44:33.800 We selected power brokers, Boss Tweed of New York City, and then Margaret Thatcher. 0.74

00:44:39.020 So we selected this eclectic group to include zealots, Maximilian Robespierre of the French Revolution and Abu Musab al-Zakai, who I fought for two and a half years.

00:44:47.580 And we took these 12 profiles.

00:44:50.360 You put the guy you fought on that list. 1.00

00:44:51.640 And we killed him.

00:44:52.140 That's so interesting. 0.99

00:44:52.680 That's right. 0.99

00:44:53.080 And we killed him. 0.99

00:44:53.480 Because I respected him.

00:44:54.640 At the end of the day, what we found was every one of these leaders was completely different.

00:45:01.260 And yet there are things about leadership that we derive.

00:45:04.500 So, for example, we learned that most people might say, well, we're going to take these leaders.

00:45:09.360 We're going to put them and find the similarities, bring it down to top two or three things and write a book that says the three leadership behaviors you need and go forth and make a lot of money and be successful.

00:45:19.020 What we found is leadership's extraordinarily contextual.

00:45:22.680 It's different in every situation, every moment, the followers, leaders, the situation that you're in.

00:45:28.700 Because of that, it's impossible to replicate in a generic sense.

00:45:32.720 There's no such thing, in our view, as a generic good leader.

00:45:35.460 And we came up with, we identified these myths that have always colored how we think about leadership.

00:45:41.820 One of them is the formulaic myth.

00:45:43.480 That's the idea that if I have certain behavioral or attributes, if I'm thrifty, brave, clean, whatever, I'm going to be successful.

00:45:50.220 And yet when we studied history, what we find is people who have the majority of those often fail.

00:45:55.600 And people who've got almost none of them often win.

00:45:58.660 Is it because they wing it because they've been getting away without having to use a lot of it?

00:46:02.120 And so they can pretty much beat the regular guy.

00:46:05.460 So like this, and I never have to get too disciplined and put too much effort into it.

00:46:09.340 The answer would be sometimes.

00:46:11.360 The answer is almost always, it depends.

00:46:14.960 The answer is because the situation is always so different.

00:46:18.800 The really great leader is the person who can come into a situation, empathize with the people they're working with, their followers.

00:46:25.560 Although follower may not be the right word.

00:46:27.540 It may be partner or participant, but we all use follower.

00:46:30.980 To understand what their needs are, what their perspectives are.

00:46:33.700 Also understand the situation.

00:46:36.060 If you take someone like Vince Lombardi, he had a coaching style when he was coaching high school.

00:46:40.420 He had a different style when he coached college.

00:46:42.780 He had a different style yet when he was coaching the Green Bay Packers.

00:46:45.880 And Paul Horning would drink a case of beer the night before a game.

00:46:48.880 That's a different guy than a cadet at West Point.

00:46:50.920 And his quarterback told him, he said, every time you call me out like this in front of my peers, I lose credibility.

00:46:54.800 That's right.

00:46:55.160 And he adjusted, and he adjusted.

00:46:56.480 That's right.

00:46:57.100 And so we think of him as this one kind of person.

00:47:00.740 Actually, he was a very adaptable leader.

00:47:04.540 Now, he's a hard guy.

00:47:05.320 And so what we found is this idea that there's a formula for good leadership isn't true.

00:47:12.680 And then we have another myth that we came up with that we realized.

00:47:16.620 It's the attribution.

00:47:17.680 It's the idea that if the organization wins or loses, it's the leadership fault or his credit.

00:47:22.760 So you don't believe everything rises and falls on leadership?

00:47:24.940 No.

00:47:25.440 I used to.

00:47:27.500 In fact, I might say it rises and falls on leadership, but not on the leader.

00:47:32.560 Because I don't think leadership is something that you or I have, and we pull it out of our pocket and we throw it.

00:47:38.280 I think leadership is a product of interaction between the leader and followers in the situation.

00:47:44.580 It's like an emergent property.

00:47:46.500 It's like you mix certain chemicals together, and if you get the right ones together, you get a certain outcome.

00:47:50.920 That's leadership.

00:47:51.640 Did you come up with things where certain principles are evergreen that are always going to apply for 100 years from now, 50 years from now, and other industries as well, or also goes back to it depends?

00:48:00.860 Yeah, it depends.

00:48:01.540 So everything is a depends.

00:48:02.800 It depends.

00:48:03.100 Now, there are things we want.

00:48:04.980 We want values from leaders, but in reality, leadership's not dependent upon that.

00:48:10.000 Look at how many people of really negative values are very effective leaders.

00:48:15.360 Grant is one of them.

00:48:16.620 I mean, Alexander did some stuff.

00:48:18.760 I mean, the list is a long list.

00:48:20.080 Almost every leader has a dark side, and then there are some people who are almost all dark side, and yet they're still effective leaders.

00:48:28.620 Think of Adolf Hitler. 0.81

00:48:29.660 Leadership is effective or it isn't.

00:48:31.900 It's not good or bad in terms of value decision.

00:48:35.320 And so as we study these leaders, we came out with this humility that leadership's far more complex than most of us realize.

00:48:45.480 And there's no such thing as the great man or the great woman who stands on the pedestal and is the fulcrum of history.

00:48:51.960 In fact, those people who we put on the pedestal, historically, the closer you look, yeah, they fall.

00:48:58.280 And so the 13th profile, we added Robert E. Lee.

00:49:01.400 And we added Robert E. Lee because he had been the leader most central in my life.

00:49:05.980 You mentioned him earlier when you said when he went through West Point, flawless, no issues, nothing.

00:49:10.320 Exactly.

00:49:10.880 I have a Robert E. Lee statue in my house right next to Grant.

00:49:14.020 Yeah, as you should.

00:49:15.440 He's a great guy, but he wasn't a perfect guy.

00:49:17.500 He made some fundamental mistakes, bad decisions that can't be forgiven or overlooked.

00:49:23.660 But it doesn't mean that we say that they're of no value.

00:49:28.280 That they weren't, that they were bad people.

00:49:31.460 What we say is they're human, just like us.

00:49:33.360 So you would categorize Hitler also as a human. 0.72

00:49:35.480 Yeah, he probably tests the case more than anyone else.

00:49:38.460 But yeah, he had a value set and a set of perspectives that I think were skewed.

00:49:44.140 But he probably could have passed a lie detector test of was he doing the best thing for the German people.

00:49:49.860 I agree with you on that.

00:49:51.060 Did you read a lot of his material?

00:49:52.640 Like, did you ever read Mein Kampf?

00:49:53.680 I did, I did.

00:49:54.420 You went through that.

00:49:55.440 Yeah, I mean, when you're younger, you want to read the things that people wrote.

00:49:58.280 It's amazing how he would go to the local political debates just to watch and see the debates and say,

00:50:04.120 one day I can do this better and I don't know why they're not making decisions.

00:50:07.260 And I can, like, he was a true believer.

00:50:09.960 I don't know if you read that book by Bonhoeffer.

00:50:11.660 He is a, he would, like you said, if he did a lie detector test, he would have thought I did everything right.

00:50:15.920 And the one on the rise of Hitler, the recent book, on the rise of Hitler, describes him as a tuning fork.

00:50:21.300 And he could get the pitch of what people wanted, needed, and he could meet that in just the right tone.

00:50:28.040 And, of course, it's hard to argue that that wasn't the case.

00:50:31.240 By the way, again, fascinating stuff.

00:50:33.320 We can talk about the stuff all day long.

00:50:35.000 You know, final thoughts with you.

00:50:36.700 I know you also have a soft heart in things you want to do with contribution with the youth and some projects you're working on.

00:50:42.860 Why don't you tell us a little bit about that?

00:50:44.600 Well, thanks, Pat, because I feel very strongly about it.

00:50:46.660 I think if we go back to the idea of America as a nation, you know, someone says, well, God created America.

00:50:54.140 No, no, no, no.

00:50:54.720 People came to the United States, and America was built, the United States of America was built over time as an agreement between people.

00:51:00.800 And that agreement between people with rights and responsibilities is pretty sacred.

00:51:05.480 And if we don't uphold it, we're not going to have the kind of society we need.

00:51:09.780 And the foundation of that is citizens.

00:51:12.480 It's the people who have those rights and responsibilities.

00:51:16.660 You know, most of us in the U.S. didn't do anything to earn our citizenship.

00:51:20.780 We're born and we got it.

00:51:22.740 Other people have to do an awful lot more to get it.

00:51:25.580 In many cases, they hold that a little more dear because they understand it was something that was hard-earned.

00:51:32.540 Ours was earned by people before us.

00:51:34.580 But where do people learn the citizenship that really shapes you in life?

00:51:39.980 You went into the Army, and I'm going to take a wild guess that you came out better than you went in.

00:51:44.540 Absolutely.

00:51:45.020 You didn't love every day.

00:51:47.140 You didn't value everything you did.

00:51:49.260 Many of the things that made me better than I otherwise would be, I didn't enjoy in the moment.

00:51:53.940 I think people have to have experiences where they contribute to something big.

00:51:58.600 How do you do that, though?

00:51:59.340 How do you get somebody who's never been there to be able to relate to somebody else's situation?

00:52:04.880 Well, I think you've got to put them together, and you've got to put them in that.

00:52:07.600 I don't think you can do it in civics class or with a well-written article.

00:52:10.380 People who go in the military get that experience.

00:52:14.140 Not only do they get something they didn't want to do necessarily, but they do it with people not from their zip code.

00:52:19.620 Like my first paratroop platoon and people you served with, you suddenly have a different connection with people because they're not them anymore.

00:52:27.820 They're not those people.

00:52:28.800 They're, guess what, they're up close, and, you know, they're a lot more like us than they are different from us, and we have this shared experience.

00:52:35.200 But only 30% of young Americans qualify to enlist in the military.

00:52:40.140 70% don't qualify for physical reasons, academic reasons, legal reasons.

00:52:45.520 And so 70% of Americans right now don't get that kind of opportunity to learn from the experience.

00:52:51.780 So I think what we need is a program that allows every young American to have a realistic opportunity to do a year of national service, conservation, health care, education, something they do like AmeriCorps, Peace Corps.

00:53:05.400 Mandatory or is this choice?

00:53:07.500 Partly, I tell people that my fantasy in the dark is mandatory.

00:53:11.740 But in reality, what I advocate is voluntary but culturally expected.

00:53:16.420 And what I mean that is people do it, and then suddenly you meet somebody completely different from you, and you start the conversation with, where did you serve?

00:53:24.300 Well, I taught in schools in Louisiana.

00:53:25.800 I did this.

00:53:26.440 I worked on trails and something.

00:53:28.540 You each did something for this common thing we own together, the United States.

00:53:34.100 You know, people who do service, they vote at three times the rate of people who don't do service later in life.

00:53:40.280 They volunteer at higher rates.

00:53:42.140 They have a higher investment in society, and it reflects in what kind of citizens they become.

00:53:47.780 It allows everybody to be more proud of themselves.

00:53:51.720 Think of this, these two things.

00:53:53.160 Suppose you get to the airline, and you wait for your flight, and they say, all military, active duty military, you get to go on first.

00:54:00.400 What if they said, all young people doing their year of national service, you go on first with the military?

00:54:07.340 Because they're both, it's two sides of the same coin.

00:54:09.760 There's a lot of young people, you know, every once in a while, I'm on a flight, and we applaud the military, and they get on.

00:54:14.760 There are a lot of people who are never going to get applauded in their lifetime.

00:54:17.260 And then suddenly they're doing something, and they're going to have those moments.

00:54:21.340 How do you feel about society there?

00:54:22.920 I think people would be very open to it.

00:54:24.580 I don't think there'd be a pushback on that.

00:54:27.460 Matter of fact, I mean, you look at a lot of different denominations.

00:54:29.740 Yeah.

00:54:30.180 LDS does that all the time.

00:54:31.560 So they come back connecting to a community.

00:54:34.120 I was in Costa Rica.

00:54:35.220 I understand them better.

00:54:36.280 I went to Mexico.

00:54:37.180 I understand them better.

00:54:38.080 I think that's a very easy-to-be-accepted idea.

00:54:42.760 I don't see that because for us, one of the things we did in our office every year, Christmas morning, another man named June, he would always, he had an experience with his daughter, and he started doing things on Christmas Day, Christmas morning on Skid Row.

00:54:55.340 So I was 23, 24 years, I said, do you mind if I join you?

00:54:57.800 He says, sure.

00:54:58.420 I said, I'd love to go with you.

00:54:59.300 So we started going, and then it got bigger and bigger and bigger, and then we would take 100 people with us, and we'd go to Skid Row.

00:55:04.980 And we just talked about it the other day, by the way.

00:55:06.940 We'd go to Skid Row, and we would bring, you know, 200 McMuffins.

00:55:10.160 We would bring blankets, toothpaste, toothbrush, clothes.

00:55:13.640 And what I started noticing happen, that group that participated in that, most of them are still around until today.

00:55:20.760 It's so weird, you know, when you say this.

00:55:22.620 Most of them are still around today because you started Christmas morning, December 25th, after opening up gifts, most people open up.

00:55:28.460 We're 5 o'clock, we're in downtown LA.

00:55:30.900 And we did that for 7, 8, 9 years consecutively.

00:55:33.600 So I don't think people would be against that.

00:55:36.160 Matter of fact, I think there'd be more people being receptive to that because what parent doesn't want to see their kids experience service, you know, especially those that you're saying.

00:55:44.360 I mean, you're talking legal immigrants.

00:55:47.580 You're talking people that are here legally to be able to participate in something like this.

00:55:51.480 It's profound.

00:55:52.480 Yeah.

00:55:52.720 I think it's profound.

00:55:53.520 Is there a name behind it?

00:55:54.920 Is there a website behind it?

00:55:55.360 It's the Service Your Alliance.

00:55:57.320 Is there a website?

00:55:58.260 There is.

00:55:58.820 Service Your Alliance, one word.

00:56:01.200 Service Your Alliance.

00:56:02.820 Alliance.

00:56:03.440 Dot com.

00:56:04.120 Dot com.

00:56:04.520 And I'll tell you what, it's really powerful.

00:56:07.540 What we need is some political leadership to help along.

00:56:10.120 John McCain was our biggest supporter.

00:56:12.080 We have others on the Hill.

00:56:13.500 But we need, you know, critical mass and political leadership along with corporate leadership and just leaders at every level doing this.

00:56:20.760 Because it's not political.

00:56:22.080 It's not left or right.

00:56:22.960 If there's no political agenda behind it, you'll get support.

00:56:26.980 Exactly.

00:56:27.140 If there's the political agenda behind it, you know people are going to turn against it.

00:56:30.560 And if we have more and more independent stuff, Democrats need Republicans more than they think they need.

00:56:35.880 And Republicans need Democrats more than they think they need.

00:56:38.620 And generally the eagle flies fast when he's leveled.

00:56:41.440 And that's right in the middle.

00:56:42.380 If we can kind of listen to one another every once in a while and go into boardrooms.

00:56:45.320 And by the way, what did you think about that day when President Trump sat with Nancy Pelosi and sat with Chuck Schumer and Mike Pence was sitting to the right of President Trump?

00:56:54.340 Do you like that?

00:56:55.140 Do you like to see more things like that?

00:56:56.740 I like to see it every day.

00:56:58.000 Think of Tip O'Neill and President Reagan.

00:57:00.840 You know, they were different spectrum, but they were talking.

00:57:03.420 They were buddies, though.

00:57:04.220 They would have beer.

00:57:05.040 Yeah.

00:57:05.280 Have you read the book Chris Matthews wrote about Tip O'Neill?

00:57:08.700 I did.

00:57:09.040 Did you ever read that book?

00:57:09.960 I did.

00:57:10.260 I couldn't put it down.

00:57:11.280 Exactly.

00:57:11.640 Yeah, I couldn't put it down, the stories on how they were, they would have their fights, their battles, but at the end of the day they had so much respect for each other and they got things done.

00:57:19.260 It'd be great to see that happen.

00:57:20.600 I don't think we've seen that for 10 years.

00:57:23.060 I agree.

00:57:23.300 I don't think we've seen that for 10 years.

00:57:24.820 I think it's left and right.

00:57:25.780 I don't think we've seen that.

00:57:26.480 So when I saw that I said, I was literally in a meeting, it popped up.

00:57:29.980 I said, this is old or is this new?

00:57:32.400 This can't be new.

00:57:33.200 What are they doing to you?

00:57:34.120 And I couldn't even listen to it.

00:57:35.060 I sit away and listen to it.

00:57:35.880 I said, well, not bad.

00:57:37.240 A little bit of agreement, a little bit of Chuck pushing.

00:57:39.440 This is your shutdown.

00:57:40.360 It's not my shutdown.

00:57:42.200 You're deciding to do it.

00:57:43.020 Well, you shut down didn't work.

00:57:44.680 But again, like I said, if it's more left, right, we come together and argue, fight, have a beer afterwards, have some good food, and then be able to figure out solutions, I think we'll head in the right direction.

00:57:54.920 You know, I'm more comfortable calling you sir.

00:57:57.520 You're the first four-star general I've ever shook hands with.

00:58:00.940 I was a specialist when I got out of the army.

00:58:03.400 You know what a specialist is.

00:58:05.060 It's an E-4.

00:58:06.620 Heart of the army.

00:58:07.240 So for me, it's a pleasure and an honor, truly, as a guy that served this military proudly to meet another four-star general.

00:58:17.700 And if you have any questions, thoughts, send me a tweet and himself.

00:58:20.960 We're going to put, are you on Twitter as well, I'm assuming?

00:58:23.420 Tweet us.

00:58:24.000 Let us know what you took away from today's sit-down with General McChrystal.

00:58:28.140 Thank you so much for your time.

00:58:29.060 Truly, thank you.

00:58:29.780 Thanks, everybody, for listening.

00:58:31.120 And by the way, if you haven't already subscribed to Valuetainment on iTunes, please do so.

00:58:35.740 Give us a five-star.

00:58:37.180 Write a review if you haven't already.

00:58:38.620 And if you have any questions for me that you may have, you can always find me on Snapchat, Instagram, Facebook, or YouTube.

00:58:44.660 Just search my name, Patrick David.

00:58:46.560 And I actually do respond back when you snap me or send me a message on Instagram.

00:58:51.380 With that being said, have a great day today.

00:58:53.320 Take care, everybody.

00:58:54.020 Bye-bye.

00:58:54.280 Bye-bye.

Valuetainment - April 30, 2019

Episode 292： General McChrystal - The Myth & Reality of Leadership

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