Valuetainment - Episode 322： Alan Derschowitz On College Cheating Scandal

00:00:00.880 30 seconds. One time for the underdog.

00:00:03.300 One time for the underdog.

00:00:04.460 Ignition sequence start.

00:00:07.000 Let me see you put them up.

00:00:09.040 Reach the sky, turn the stars up above.

00:00:11.120 Cause it's one time for the underdog.

00:00:15.080 One time for the underdog.

00:00:17.260 I'm Patrick Bedevi, your host of ITIM, and today I'm sitting down with Alan Dershowitz,

00:00:20.160 who was a professor at Harvard for over 50 years, and we talked about the cheating scandal,

00:00:23.760 as well as what has changed with Democrats from 50 years ago to today,

00:00:27.060 and what's changed with Republicans from 50 years ago to today.

00:00:30.240 Alan, thank you so much for being a guest on ITIM.

00:00:32.040 A pleasure.

00:00:32.840 Yes, it's good to have you here.

00:00:33.840 Thank you.

00:00:34.260 And in Brooklyn, my God.

00:00:35.940 Out of all the places.

00:00:36.920 Yeah, this is where I grew up.

00:00:37.760 With this beautiful view of one of the most incredible cities in the world.

00:00:41.280 So, Alan, there's a lot of different angles for us to go to,

00:00:44.120 and we'll have some fun, some things we want to talk about.

00:00:46.820 But one of the things I want to talk about with you is because you've been teaching for such a long time,

00:00:52.580 and you've seen America evolve.

00:00:54.440 If America is a human being, if it's a DNA, if it's a, it's been evolving.

00:00:59.760 And for me, I grew up in a family that was very political.

00:01:02.800 My mother said they were communists.

00:01:03.960 My dad said they were imperialists, and I was born and raised in Iran.

00:01:06.160 So I ended up getting into the political side just out of curiosity.

00:01:09.700 Well, you know, I defend a lot of the Iranian dissidents now.

00:01:13.320 I was the lawyer for several of dissident groups,

00:01:17.420 and I represented some people who were killed,

00:01:20.580 family of people who were killed in Iran by the mullah.

00:01:23.540 So I've been very interested in Iran.

00:01:25.600 Also, I wrote a book opposing the Iran deal, the case against the Iran deal,

00:01:30.180 and I thought President Obama did a terrible, terrible job on that.

00:01:33.600 And although I voted for Obama and voted against Trump,

00:01:36.400 I supported Trump's decision to get out of the deal.

00:01:39.500 So why don't we start talking about your Trump diet, if that's okay with you?

00:01:43.040 Sure.

00:01:43.400 You mentioned the Trump diet.

00:01:44.560 Oh, yeah, I've lost 10 pounds.

00:01:46.240 You lost 10 pounds, yeah.

00:01:46.880 Nobody invites me to dinner anymore from my old friends on the left.

00:01:50.900 They think I'm a Trump supporter.

00:01:53.820 Look, I support some of the things he did.

00:01:55.480 I support his decision on the Iran deal.

00:01:57.460 I support moving the embassy of Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

00:02:00.660 I support many other of his policies, but I oppose his immigration policies.

00:02:05.880 I oppose his opposition to a woman's right to choose.

00:02:09.720 So I'm a liberal Democrat, but I appreciate whatever a president does,

00:02:14.420 if he or she does the right thing.

00:02:16.580 Out of curiosity, who's your favorite president of all time?

00:02:19.200 Lincoln.

00:02:20.000 I mean, that's a cliche, but I think Lincoln was the greatest president.

00:02:23.060 He was the greatest human being.

00:02:24.720 He was a man, I think, without many deep flaws.

00:02:28.520 You know, it's very hard to find people without flaws.

00:02:31.080 Jefferson owned slaves.

00:02:31.940 There's some rumors about him, but, you know, there's some of it,

00:02:34.280 but nobody has verified it.

00:02:35.760 You know, he did say at one point that he didn't think integration was really at all possible,

00:02:40.700 that maybe it would be better if former slaves went back to Africa.

00:02:44.300 That was a view he expressed, but his actions were superb.

00:02:48.840 So living, how about living?

00:02:50.320 Or not living, how about for as long as you've been around?

00:02:53.080 As long as I've been around, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, of course,

00:02:55.700 helped us win the Second World War.

00:02:57.720 Do you put him at the top?

00:02:58.920 I would say he was very, very good, deeply flawed, deeply flawed.

00:03:03.260 He had all kinds of problems.

00:03:05.480 Lyndon Johnson was a great president, but his human qualities were very, very flawed.

00:03:10.860 Jimmy Carter was a good former president, not particularly a good president.

00:03:14.760 Bill Clinton was a very good president, I think.

00:03:17.660 Ronald Reagan, I didn't vote for him, but I think was a very good president.

00:03:20.820 Have you ever voted on the right or never have?

00:03:22.700 Once I voted for a governor in Massachusetts, Governor Bill Weld,

00:03:26.860 who was a centrist, moderate Republican.

00:03:29.380 Got it.

00:03:29.760 But I always have voted Democrat.

00:03:31.760 Whether that remains the case, I don't know.

00:03:34.300 I'm going to remain within the Democratic Party as long as I can have some influence

00:03:38.640 on trying to marginalize the extreme left within the party.

00:03:41.920 Let's talk about that.

00:03:42.720 That was the first topic I wanted to get into, and you led me there.

00:03:45.080 Okay, so for me, what has been the evolution of a Democrat in the last 60 years?

00:03:54.700 You said you've been teaching 50 years, you shared with me your age, you started 25, you

00:03:59.640 stopped teaching at 75.

00:04:02.020 Okay.

00:04:02.600 You've been around for a while.

00:04:03.680 Yep.

00:04:03.980 What have you seen?

00:04:04.900 What is a Democrat in 1960 versus a Democrat today, or is it confused a little bit today?

00:04:09.060 It's very confused.

00:04:09.720 Let's start in 1960 or even in 1950, and remember the Dixiecrats were racist, segregationist Democrats.

00:04:17.240 So I could never support that, but you could support the Democratic Party because the Democrats

00:04:22.240 in the North were opposed to the Democrats in the South.

00:04:25.520 Then the Democrats really became a centrist, liberal party for many years.

00:04:29.260 They invited, you know, they nominated George McGovern and Michael Dukakis and other people

00:04:34.020 who were liberal, but centrist liberal, people like Bill Clinton and even Barack Obama and

00:04:40.960 Joe Biden.

00:04:42.080 Today, I'm afraid the Democrats are becoming the Corbyn party of the United States. 1.00

00:04:47.540 Jeremy Corbyn is a racist, anti-Semite, anti-American, horrible human being. 0.99

00:04:53.240 And guess who's his biggest supporter? 1.00

00:04:55.760 Bernie Sanders. 0.93

00:04:56.860 Bernie Sanders went over to campaign for that bigot and that anti-Semite. 0.97

00:05:00.220 A Jew going over to campaign for an anti-Semite. 0.97

00:05:02.680 Boy, you've got to scratch your head about that one. 0.89

00:05:04.560 No doubt about it, yeah.

00:05:05.080 So, you know, if Sanders ever got the Democratic nomination, I could not vote for him.

00:05:09.580 And I could not vote for some of the other hard left Democrats.

00:05:13.680 I hope that the Democrats will nominate a centrist candidate that I could vote for.

00:05:17.900 Who would you position right now as hard left and who would be a centrist?

00:05:21.600 Meaning, would Elizabeth Warren be hard left? 0.88

00:05:23.440 I would say she's hard-ish, left-ish. 0.84

00:05:26.360 70% for $40 million above?

00:05:28.660 You know, I would think the centrist candidate would be Joe Biden.

00:05:31.880 Okay.

00:05:32.120 There are others.

00:05:33.320 These folks are often very flexible in their views.

00:05:36.720 And they move to the left to win the primary, then they move to the center to win the election.

00:05:42.380 It's hard to do these days with the social media because everything anybody says is recorded and is played back.

00:05:48.160 So, I think Elizabeth Warren, I knew her for 25 years at Harvard Law School. 1.00

00:05:52.800 She was a centrist at Harvard Law School.

00:05:54.920 Then she got into politics and foolishly, foolishly moved left, left, left.

00:05:59.720 She didn't have to. 0.85

00:06:00.520 She could be the senator forever.

00:06:02.000 How did she, though?

00:06:02.520 What was the reason?

00:06:03.340 Do you know?

00:06:03.660 I don't know.

00:06:04.160 And she is not a hard leftist when it comes to foreign policy.

00:06:07.460 In fact, she didn't know anything about foreign policy.

00:06:09.120 Weren't her parents Republican or her father?

00:06:10.900 I think so.

00:06:11.640 Yeah, somebody was a Republican.

00:06:12.560 When I knew her as a professor, she was dead center, dead center left. 0.52

00:06:17.040 But now she's moved way to the left. 0.54

00:06:18.960 And I don't understand that.

00:06:20.340 I think it's hurt her prospects.

00:06:21.300 Do you think the 2016 election, Sanders kind of hurt Hillary Clinton because she felt like she had to be committed to the far left in order to win also Bernie's crowd.

00:06:33.420 So, it's kind of like chasing two different audiences and you lost both of them.

00:06:36.640 Do you think there was a bit of that going on?

00:06:37.660 Oh, I think there's no question.

00:06:38.780 There was a bit of that going on and it could go on again.

00:06:41.060 The primary system drives candidates to the left if they're Democrats, to the right if they're Republicans.

00:06:46.500 Look at Eric Cantor.

00:06:47.740 A very strong conservative leader of the House gets primaried and beaten because he wasn't far right enough for the Republicans.

00:06:55.820 The Tea Party helped really weaken the Republicans.

00:07:00.220 Remember, the Republicans lost the popular vote in the 2016 election.

00:07:04.420 They might have won if there were direct elections of president.

00:07:07.140 You can't know how people vote.

00:07:08.980 You know, whether Trump would have campaigned more in California than New York, with the Electoral College, nobody campaigns in New York.

00:07:14.380 Yeah, he just knew California and New York didn't matter.

00:07:16.660 Yeah, he knew what was going to happen.

00:07:18.060 Yeah.

00:07:18.460 So, okay.

00:07:19.400 So, when you say that, so today, when you're looking at them running, how big of a role are you seeing an AOC, Alexander Ocasio-Cortez, or an Elizabeth Warren, or a Bernie or a Beto?

00:07:31.880 How big of a role do you think they're playing in Democrats being confused?

00:07:35.320 Oh, a tremendous role for them being confused.

00:07:37.880 You know, the three new Congresswomen have moved the Democratic Party way to the left, and I see it as part of my responsibility to marginalize the three of them and make sure they don't become the face of the Democratic Party.

00:07:49.880 I don't have any problems about the one from Minnesota and the one from Michigan, because they'll never be the face of the Democratic Party.

00:07:56.640 But the New Yorker, she could be the face of the Democratic Party. 0.95

00:08:00.080 She's attractive. 0.97

00:08:01.460 She's verbal.

00:08:02.960 She seems to be fairly bright, no experience, and not a lot of deep knowledge, particularly about foreign policy.

00:08:09.520 But she presents well, so she could, in the end, damage the Democratic Party more than the others can, because the Democrats may see her as somebody who represents a wing of the party.

00:08:22.380 And there'll be a lot of people who can't vote for a party that has a wing like that.

00:08:25.780 Maybe if I go a little deeper with this on you is, do you think you are a pure Democrat?

00:08:31.720 Like, you think you're a 100% Democrat, or maybe you yourself may be an independent or libertarian, definitely not a Republican.

00:08:38.240 Maybe you're not a Democrat.

00:08:40.220 Maybe they are Democrats.

00:08:41.420 Is there a part of that that you're processing yourself for you or no?

00:08:43.980 Yeah, sure.

00:08:44.360 Ronald Reagan once said he didn't leave the Democratic Party.

00:08:46.640 The Democratic Party left him.

00:08:48.180 I haven't.

00:08:48.800 They haven't left me yet.

00:08:50.200 I'm still a big supporter of Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, that wing of the Democratic Party.

00:08:56.100 But they may leave me at some point, and I worry about that.

00:09:00.320 I'll stay within the Democratic Party.

00:09:01.720 I was going to quit the Democratic Party if they elected Keith Ellison to be their chairman. 0.82

00:09:06.260 Keith Ellison was too close to Louis Farrakhan, who was a horrible bigot.

00:09:10.560 And I have to tell you that I'm so proud of Chelsea Clinton for standing up against Farrakhan and standing up against Omar.

00:09:17.680 She, I hope, would be a face of the Democratic Party. 0.76

00:09:20.520 Chelsea?

00:09:20.940 I could strongly support her.

00:09:22.080 Yeah.

00:09:22.120 Really?

00:09:22.460 She's been very courageous.

00:09:24.420 She got a lot of heat for it, for what happened recently.

00:09:26.560 She did, but she stood up to the heat.

00:09:27.760 What do you think about the fact that she came back and she apologized?

00:09:29.740 Well, I wish she hadn't, but I understand that.

00:09:32.100 She's a nice woman.

00:09:33.000 I've known her since she's about 10 years old.

00:09:34.800 Her and her family used to come to Martha's Vineyard every summer, and we would see them socially when he was president.

00:09:39.120 I invited Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton to come to Rosh Hashanah Jewish New Year services on Martha's Vineyard, the first year he was elected president.

00:09:46.900 It was the first time an American president had ever been at a Jewish New Year service.

00:09:51.240 And so we've been friends to the Clintons ever since.

00:09:54.600 So if you were to leave, first of all, what would cause it, too, if you leave?

00:09:58.120 Where would somebody like you go?

00:09:59.420 Because when I listen to you and I read about you and I read your belief system, you're not, if I took the name out and forget about the name, forget about the resume, forget about the 50 years, forget about who you are that everybody knows.

00:10:09.640 You know, Clinton's friends, all this other stuff, you campaign for them.

00:10:13.400 Forget about the books, everything.

00:10:15.140 If I took it out and I say, here's a human being, these are their positions, what would you say he is?

00:10:21.200 Okay, maybe socially progressive, fine.

00:10:24.940 I think economically conservative, give or take.

00:10:28.940 I don't think you're radical to the point where, hey, I think we need to tax, raise this, raise this, raise that.

00:10:32.620 I don't think you're there.

00:10:33.500 You know, foreign policy, all that other stuff, you know, you have certain positions that may be conservative, you know,

00:10:39.040 where you're out with Israel, all this other stuff.

00:10:40.580 But I definitely don't put you as a Democrat.

00:10:42.160 So if you weren't a Democrat, I look from the outside, I would position you as somebody that may be more of an independent.

00:10:47.760 I would be.

00:10:48.380 I would be.

00:10:48.980 Okay, so if you were to leave, you would go independent.

00:10:51.120 Yeah, if we didn't have a two-party system, I wouldn't stay with the Democrats.

00:10:54.540 I'd become a libertarian or an independent.

00:10:56.660 Look, I'm thinking about writing a book called Why I Left the Left But Couldn't Join the Right,

00:11:01.000 or Why I Left the Democrats But Couldn't Become a Republican.

00:11:03.620 That makes sense.

00:11:04.160 If that happens.

00:11:05.260 And I think I speak for a lot of people who are very confused today.

00:11:08.760 I have to tell you that if Donald Trump were not the president, I think a lot of these folks would vote Republican.

00:11:14.900 But they now see it's impossible to vote for Democrats because of the extreme left elements,

00:11:21.040 and they find it very difficult to vote for Trump because of his personality and the way he talks

00:11:26.640 and what he sometimes says that they don't want to see as role models for their children.

00:11:31.060 Can you talk about that email you got from a friend of yours?

00:11:33.080 You didn't mention the name, the fact that, hey, I can support some of the stuff he believes in,

00:11:36.740 but I can't support him as the individual.

00:11:38.100 How do we get over that?

00:11:39.780 How do we as individuals get over it?

00:11:41.140 Because it's not an easy thing because a big part of voting, if it was logical, like I said this one time,

00:11:45.700 I said, what if we didn't know who the candidate was and there was no campaigning?

00:11:50.940 You got a sheet of paper that said, this is what this person believes in.

00:11:55.560 This is what this person believes in.

00:11:57.080 No face, no nothing, no nothing.

00:11:58.920 Because that's what happened in the earliest elections with Jefferson versus Adams.

00:12:03.000 There was no campaigning.

00:12:04.140 Yeah, so if we did that, how many more people you think would be comfortable voting for somebody?

00:12:08.100 Wait a minute.

00:12:09.020 I would vote for him?

00:12:10.760 There's no way in the world I would vote for him.

00:12:12.440 They were disappointed emotionally.

00:12:13.980 Sure.

00:12:14.300 So could you talk about that email you got and how can we get over that?

00:12:17.160 Well, I get so many emails.

00:12:18.360 You know which one I'm talking about.

00:12:19.440 I get so many emails like that.

00:12:21.620 People who are disappointed in me, they want me to join their team.

00:12:26.860 I don't join teams when it comes to politics.

00:12:30.400 Let me give you an example from my own life.

00:12:32.640 The original title from my book, The Case Against Impeaching Trump,

00:12:37.300 the original title, believe it or not, was The Case Against Impeaching Hillary Clinton.

00:12:41.920 Wow.

00:12:42.440 Because I thought Hillary Clinton would get elected. 0.97

00:12:44.720 Can I see it?

00:12:45.560 Sure.

00:12:46.020 I thought Hillary Clinton would get elected and I was going to write a book

00:12:49.660 about why it would be wrong to impeach her.

00:12:52.620 Remember, the Republicans were saying the day she comes into office, we're going to impeach her.

00:12:57.200 And so, of course, it didn't turn out that way.

00:12:59.940 So I just changed the name, Clinton to Trump.

00:13:02.280 It's the same book.

00:13:03.300 I'm making the same arguments.

00:13:04.920 But my radical left people think I've abandoned them and I'm a traitor

00:13:08.780 and I've compromised my constitutional views because I like Trump.

00:13:12.720 Totally false.

00:13:13.680 I would be making all the same arguments.

00:13:15.880 By the way, as a humorous thing, my publisher came up with a third cover

00:13:19.240 and that is The Case Against Impeaching Trump, but in a plain brown wrapper,

00:13:24.120 the kind we used to use to hide our dirty books that we were reading,

00:13:27.740 you know, so nobody should know we were reading them,

00:13:29.580 so that people on Martha's Vineyard could read my book without anybody attacking them

00:13:34.520 and knowing that it was me.

00:13:36.260 Yeah, that's a good point.

00:13:36.460 Right.

00:13:36.800 So that's why we produced this cover.

00:13:38.100 So interesting.

00:13:38.280 That's hilarious.

00:13:39.600 That's hilarious.

00:13:40.120 So for me, I think sometimes, like, even I run a company,

00:13:43.380 so sometimes in a company you will have a number one and you'll have a number two.

00:13:47.760 So in sports, if you only have a one and two and then there's a very big drop off

00:13:53.500 on number three, there's not really that much competition.

00:13:56.160 So Monopoly, two against everybody else, if you know what I'm talking about.

00:13:58.340 It's two against everybody else.

00:13:59.640 When a third shows up, it kind of gets exciting because now we, as the fans,

00:14:05.360 are really able to watch and say,

00:14:06.400 what, who's really the best?

00:14:08.300 I don't know who's really the best.

00:14:09.860 So for me, I think if we get a third party,

00:14:12.980 and I know a lot of people say,

00:14:13.940 we're not ready for it.

00:14:14.680 I don't think it's going to happen.

00:14:15.640 Everybody's worried about independent.

00:14:16.820 Oh, my God, if Howard Schultz runs, he's going to hurt Hillary Clinton.

00:14:20.160 He shouldn't.

00:14:20.740 Oh, he's going to hurt Biden because of this.

00:14:22.780 Look what Ross Perot did.

00:14:23.860 Ross Perot is the reason why Bush got...

00:14:25.040 All these things that you keep hearing about, right,

00:14:26.500 if independent got elected.

00:14:28.440 But isn't that too much politics, again,

00:14:30.820 if they're so worried about a third party

00:14:32.520 versus us being able to get these two sides

00:14:35.040 to have another competitor that they have to face off

00:14:37.040 and have an argument for?

00:14:37.760 Look, I would love to see a centrist party

00:14:39.660 that said we're going to combine together

00:14:42.020 real conservatives and real liberals.

00:14:45.060 We're going to exclude the extreme right wing

00:14:48.140 and we're going to exclude the extreme left wing.

00:14:51.180 It could work in other countries.

00:14:53.240 Can't work with the Electoral College in the United States

00:14:56.140 because in order to win the electoral vote,

00:14:59.940 you have to win majorities in enough states

00:15:02.740 with enough electors.

00:15:04.400 And so third parties generally have tended to be spoilers.

00:15:08.100 The last time we really had a third party

00:15:09.780 that had any chance of winning

00:15:11.080 was with Teddy Roosevelt back in the teens

00:15:14.180 of the 20th century.

00:15:16.480 And I just don't think that it's in our future.

00:15:19.060 I do think Howard Schultz would hurt the Democrats

00:15:21.800 and therefore he probably won't do it.

00:15:24.080 I think that Bloomberg would be as close as we could get

00:15:27.120 to having a third party candidate

00:15:28.760 that would get a lot of votes,

00:15:29.960 but he's had all of his people run through the numbers

00:15:32.360 and he doesn't see a path to winning

00:15:34.860 either the nomination or the election.

00:15:36.920 So reluctantly, he's decided not to run.

00:15:39.620 I could vote for him in a minute.

00:15:40.820 What do you think about that?

00:15:41.540 What do you think about his decision?

00:15:42.640 I think he's probably right empirically

00:15:44.760 and he doesn't want to hurt the Democratic Party.

00:15:46.880 So instead what he's doing is contributing

00:15:48.400 millions and millions of dollars

00:15:50.420 to candidates that he thinks have a chance of winning.

00:15:54.100 And I hope he's right.

00:15:55.340 Do you know who those names are?

00:15:56.640 No.

00:15:57.540 You know, he's a pretty secretive guy.

00:15:59.020 He sticks to himself.

00:16:01.160 I've had dinner with him a couple of times.

00:16:02.900 I like him very much.

00:16:04.560 And he's a very thoughtful guy.

00:16:06.700 He seems like a very interesting guy.

00:16:08.500 And I don't know if, like for me,

00:16:11.780 if I sat there and I say, you got Trump,

00:16:12.980 you got a person on the other side

00:16:14.320 that maybe he wouldn't want to face off.

00:16:16.260 I mean, if you got a guy that's worth 50 plus billion,

00:16:18.860 the argument about wealth and success and money is even,

00:16:22.460 if not an upper hand.

00:16:24.560 If you got, you know, names in New York,

00:16:26.900 he's also got some credibility in New York.

00:16:28.340 It would have made for an interesting matchup.

00:16:30.180 If it's a pay-per-view,

00:16:31.260 you want to see some matchups going on,

00:16:32.740 it would have been fun to see him

00:16:33.840 getting in the ring and competing.

00:16:36.720 So, you know, again,

00:16:37.860 let me challenge that a little bit

00:16:38.960 because sometimes, you know,

00:16:40.440 when you've been around for a while,

00:16:42.740 and I'd be curious to know

00:16:44.420 what you would say about this,

00:16:45.860 when you've been around for a while,

00:16:47.000 sometimes your belief system

00:16:48.300 becomes so deep and ingrained

00:16:50.780 that sometimes you have blind spots.

00:16:52.560 Absolutely.

00:16:53.020 And I'm not saying you have it.

00:16:53.780 No, no, no.

00:16:54.160 I'm just saying as anybody.

00:16:54.900 Sometimes we have blind spots.

00:16:56.000 We all have it.

00:16:56.740 You know, I run a business

00:16:57.940 and I watch sometimes.

00:16:59.040 I'm like, well, Pat,

00:16:59.560 you've been around for so long.

00:17:00.440 Maybe you're having a blind spot

00:17:01.520 within a business you're in.

00:17:02.720 And maybe you've got to kind of be open-minded

00:17:03.940 about what they're talking about over here

00:17:05.080 because anytime I'm too close,

00:17:07.020 innovation...

00:17:07.540 Look, I'm open.

00:17:07.780 I'm open to the possibility

00:17:09.440 that a third party may someday be able

00:17:11.440 to prevail in this country.

00:17:13.520 I don't think in the coming election

00:17:15.320 it will work.

00:17:15.560 Oh, no, no.

00:17:16.040 I'm with you on that.

00:17:16.860 I agree.

00:17:17.300 I just don't.

00:17:17.760 But the part I was going to ask you

00:17:18.900 was the following.

00:17:20.080 Do you think we need a...

00:17:23.000 Revolutionary is not the right word for it.

00:17:25.160 A true believer synergist,

00:17:27.440 somebody who can really move the crowd,

00:17:28.960 move the audience,

00:17:29.820 energize the audience

00:17:30.980 on the middle for somebody.

00:17:32.540 Like, for instance, day one.

00:17:33.700 Who thought Trump was going to be president?

00:17:35.080 Honestly, day one.

00:17:36.580 Who thought day one Obama was going to be president?

00:17:38.900 Who thought day one a lot of these guys

00:17:40.640 were going to be presidents?

00:17:41.340 I mean, Clinton went against senior...

00:17:43.860 Until that one debate takes place,

00:17:45.280 nobody thought he was going to win.

00:17:46.320 You know, Bush senior was resume director of CI.

00:17:49.060 He had all this stuff going on for himself.

00:17:50.640 Do you think the right person

00:17:52.980 with the right message that can move us

00:17:55.160 will inspire some from the right

00:17:57.120 and some from the left to say,

00:17:58.280 I'm going to go over here

00:17:59.460 and get the 40% type of number?

00:18:01.020 It's possible.

00:18:01.640 If you've got the right person.

00:18:02.920 But the problem is,

00:18:03.800 when you have that,

00:18:04.420 you can also just as easily

00:18:05.440 get the wrong person,

00:18:06.480 a charismatic populist leader

00:18:08.880 who is a racist or who is... 0.59

00:18:12.420 For the middle?

00:18:13.400 No.

00:18:14.000 I mean, saying...

00:18:14.880 Oh, yes.

00:18:16.000 You say you want to break the mold

00:18:17.380 and get a populist.

00:18:19.260 Yes.

00:18:20.320 Sure, a populist wouldn't necessarily

00:18:22.880 appeal to the middle.

00:18:24.080 But we have to remember,

00:18:25.160 if you look back at some of the

00:18:26.320 very bad elections in Europe

00:18:27.740 where they elected fascists

00:18:29.360 or communists or others,

00:18:30.720 the middle supported many of these folks

00:18:33.340 because the countries were in deep trouble.

00:18:36.280 The difference is,

00:18:37.120 America is doing great.

00:18:39.060 It's really doing great for the most part.

00:18:40.940 Even the poorest of Americans

00:18:42.820 are doing better than they did

00:18:44.680 in years past.

00:18:45.980 This is not a recipe.

00:18:47.120 That's not a democratic message right there.

00:18:47.780 I know.

00:18:48.400 This is not a recipe for extremism.

00:18:50.900 And yet we're seeing a movement toward extremism.

00:18:52.820 It's hard to explain.

00:18:54.240 The same thing is true in Eastern Europe.

00:18:55.980 Eastern Europe has never been better off. 0.95

00:18:58.040 Life in Poland, in Austria,

00:19:00.160 you name it, Lithuania, Latvia,

00:19:02.240 life's good in these countries

00:19:03.800 compared to what it was under communism,

00:19:06.400 under fascism.

00:19:07.740 And yet we're seeing a move to the hard right

00:19:09.940 with a lot of populism and bigotry.

00:19:12.940 So it's dangerous.

00:19:14.240 I asked you the question about

00:19:15.060 what's changed with Democrats

00:19:16.260 from 50s, 60s to date.

00:19:18.540 Let's ask the question on the other side.

00:19:19.860 What's changed with the Republicans side?

00:19:21.900 Well, I think we've eliminated

00:19:23.160 what we used to call Eisenhower Republicans.

00:19:25.540 And that is centrist Republicans

00:19:27.380 who were fiscally conservative,

00:19:30.700 foreign policy conservative,

00:19:32.740 but socially not so conservative.

00:19:35.720 It's like the British Conservative Party

00:19:37.880 is very different

00:19:38.760 from the American Republican Party.

00:19:40.260 British Conservative Party

00:19:41.320 supports a woman's right to choose,

00:19:43.120 supports gay rights,

00:19:44.100 opposes the death penalty,

00:19:45.260 supports gun control,

00:19:46.580 supports control of the environment.

00:19:48.720 I could be a conservative in England.

00:19:50.180 I think I would be a conservative in England,

00:19:52.140 certainly if the Labour Party

00:19:53.560 was headed by Corbyn.

00:19:55.060 The American Republican Party, however,

00:19:57.660 is now owned in large part

00:20:00.040 by the hard, hard religious right

00:20:03.320 and social conservative right

00:20:05.760 so that Donald Trump,

00:20:07.300 to get that vote,

00:20:08.360 has to be opposed to a woman's right to choose, 1.00

00:20:10.960 has to be opposed to gay marriage,

00:20:12.720 has to be opposed to environmental controls,

00:20:14.740 has to be opposed to gun control.

00:20:16.220 That makes it hard for a centrist

00:20:18.080 to move to the Republican Party.

00:20:20.300 Many of my friends have done that, though.

00:20:21.860 They say, look,

00:20:22.380 those are interesting issues,

00:20:23.900 but they're not the central issues.

00:20:25.800 The central issues are the economy

00:20:27.180 and foreign policy,

00:20:28.360 so I will hold my nose

00:20:29.600 on social issues

00:20:30.700 and vote Republican.

00:20:32.040 People do that.

00:20:32.760 It's understandable.

00:20:33.900 I'm not doing that.

00:20:35.100 Got it.

00:20:35.980 Got it.

00:20:36.360 At the moment.

00:20:37.080 That may change.

00:20:37.840 I tell you,

00:20:38.300 I'll listen to you,

00:20:39.760 and what I like about your arguments is

00:20:41.520 you'll go,

00:20:42.740 your argument's very logical,

00:20:44.560 and then there's some

00:20:45.060 that's purely belief,

00:20:46.140 you're a true believer,

00:20:46.820 like, you know,

00:20:47.180 anti-Semitism,

00:20:48.100 all that stuff.

00:20:48.560 That's poor,

00:20:49.360 that's blood,

00:20:49.800 that's heritage,

00:20:50.280 that's gold.

00:20:50.680 And I respect that,

00:20:51.620 because, you know,

00:20:52.820 you are who you are.

00:20:53.680 I'm an American.

00:20:54.980 I served the military,

00:20:55.800 but I still have a lot of love for Iran.

00:20:57.660 I was born and raised in Iran.

00:20:58.700 I have affinity to that country.

00:20:59.940 Look, Iran's a great country.

00:21:01.460 The people of Iran

00:21:02.120 have the best commitment

00:21:04.260 to liberty

00:21:04.840 and civil liberties

00:21:06.140 of any country

00:21:07.340 other than Israel 0.98

00:21:08.140 in the Middle East.

00:21:09.260 And it's interesting

00:21:09.920 that the two countries,

00:21:10.960 which have had

00:21:11.480 fairly strong traditions

00:21:12.560 of liberty,

00:21:13.240 the two Muslim,

00:21:14.240 non-Arab countries,

00:21:15.700 Iran and now Turkey,

00:21:17.480 are moving toward

00:21:18.480 religious fundamentalism.

00:21:20.020 And it's a tragedy,

00:21:20.860 because the people

00:21:21.280 don't want it.

00:21:22.200 The people don't want it.

00:21:23.100 It's a dictatorship.

00:21:24.260 What do you think

00:21:24.560 about the Shah?

00:21:25.580 Well, you know,

00:21:26.420 I think that the Shah 1.00

00:21:28.480 was mixed.

00:21:29.360 He had a lot of good.

00:21:30.600 He gave tremendous rights

00:21:32.040 to women.

00:21:32.740 He was much more tolerant

00:21:34.540 of minority religions

00:21:36.360 and other groups.

00:21:37.640 On the other hand,

00:21:38.660 he used dictatorial methods

00:21:40.600 to achieve some of his goals.

00:21:42.980 I still think

00:21:43.720 we should have supported him

00:21:44.700 and we shouldn't

00:21:45.640 have abandoned him.

00:21:46.440 We should have always

00:21:47.440 thought about the alternative.

00:21:48.940 You know,

00:21:49.120 what comes next

00:21:49.940 and what came next

00:21:50.900 has been horrible

00:21:51.940 for the people of Iran.

00:21:53.100 You know,

00:21:53.800 people, 1.00

00:21:54.220 gays are being thrown 1.00

00:21:55.080 off rooftops. 1.00

00:21:56.360 Dissidents are being murdered

00:21:57.500 by the thousands.

00:21:59.260 Is that an improvement?

00:22:00.440 No.

00:22:01.060 You know,

00:22:02.020 you have to always

00:22:03.200 think of things comparatively.

00:22:05.240 And so,

00:22:05.840 tyrants,

00:22:07.320 people who are dictators,

00:22:08.760 people who deny basic rights, 1.00

00:22:10.740 can be much better

00:22:11.560 than the alternative.

00:22:12.460 That was true of Iran. 0.95

00:22:13.940 That was true,

00:22:14.780 believe it or not,

00:22:15.540 of Saddam Hussein, 0.92

00:22:16.580 who was a terrible, 0.99

00:22:17.480 terrible, horrible tyrant. 0.99

00:22:19.100 That was, 0.98

00:22:19.820 it may be true in Syria.

00:22:21.400 Sometimes you prefer

00:22:22.500 tyrannical consistency

00:22:24.260 than you do

00:22:25.640 allowing in the radical elements

00:22:27.360 who you can't

00:22:28.020 have any control over.

00:22:29.560 It's always a choice

00:22:30.480 between evils

00:22:31.280 and sometimes

00:22:31.940 the worst evil

00:22:33.540 is the one you don't know

00:22:34.620 and that was certainly

00:22:35.420 true in Iran.

00:22:36.140 Let's talk a minute

00:22:36.880 about your book

00:22:38.160 before we go into,

00:22:39.500 before we go into talking

00:22:40.800 about some of the college

00:22:41.620 cheating scandal

00:22:42.300 that's taken place.

00:22:43.100 From your perspective,

00:22:44.340 I've been here

00:22:44.800 since November 20,

00:22:45.700 1990.

00:22:46.820 So that's senior,

00:22:47.920 then it was Clinton,

00:22:48.800 then, you know,

00:22:49.420 I've seen that transition.

00:22:50.960 But I wasn't here

00:22:51.600 for Reagan, Carter,

00:22:53.600 you know, Nick,

00:22:54.020 I wasn't here for that.

00:22:55.080 Has it been a typical

00:22:56.340 strategy from the opposing side

00:22:58.620 no matter who gets elected,

00:23:00.280 we drop the word impeachment?

00:23:01.900 And have you seen that

00:23:02.820 consistently from both sides

00:23:04.320 as a Democrat

00:23:05.400 or do you only see it

00:23:06.300 from one side?

00:23:07.160 I see it from both sides.

00:23:08.100 Without a doubt.

00:23:09.040 Look, Nixon should have

00:23:09.920 been impeached.

00:23:10.500 He committed high crimes

00:23:12.080 and misdemeanors,

00:23:12.880 obstruction of justice

00:23:13.740 and a range of other

00:23:14.620 serious, serious crimes.

00:23:16.480 Clinton should never

00:23:17.200 have been impeached.

00:23:18.020 That was not a high crime.

00:23:19.180 If anything,

00:23:19.660 it was a low crime.

00:23:20.660 It was a personal crime.

00:23:22.020 It didn't deal with governance.

00:23:23.600 Trump should not be impeached.

00:23:25.380 And Clinton, 1.00

00:23:26.140 Hillary Clinton,

00:23:26.720 should not have been impeached.

00:23:27.560 So I think we're seeing

00:23:28.360 the weaponization

00:23:29.640 of impeachment

00:23:30.460 for political purposes.

00:23:31.800 That's why I wrote my book.

00:23:32.840 I also wrote a book

00:23:33.520 called Trumped Up

00:23:34.180 where I argue that

00:23:35.560 the attempt to

00:23:36.500 go after Trump

00:23:38.640 or anybody else

00:23:39.560 by using the criminal

00:23:40.980 justice system

00:23:41.860 is a mistake.

00:23:43.200 I think the same thing

00:23:43.860 is true with Netanyahu 0.81

00:23:44.820 in Israel.

00:23:45.340 They're trying to

00:23:46.180 go after him

00:23:46.720 instead of beating him

00:23:47.460 in elections.

00:23:48.120 They're trying to

00:23:48.660 go after him

00:23:49.220 and destroy him 1.00

00:23:50.500 through criminal processes.

00:23:52.060 I think that's always

00:23:52.780 a mistake

00:23:53.320 with elected officials

00:23:54.580 unless the crime

00:23:55.580 is crystal clear

00:23:56.820 the way it was

00:23:57.560 with Richard Nixon.

00:23:58.600 Outside of him,

00:23:59.200 has it ever been

00:23:59.820 crystal clear?

00:24:00.980 Other than Nixon,

00:24:01.820 no.

00:24:02.100 In fact,

00:24:02.560 the other impeachment

00:24:03.300 that we had,

00:24:03.900 Andrew Johnson,

00:24:04.840 totally wrong.

00:24:05.740 Never should have been impeached.

00:24:07.080 He should have been

00:24:07.580 thrown out of office. 1.00

00:24:08.340 He was a bum, 1.00

00:24:09.300 but he shouldn't have been impeached. 0.98

00:24:10.460 He didn't commit

00:24:11.100 high crimes

00:24:11.560 and misdemeanors.

00:24:12.000 Yeah, that's a different story.

00:24:13.040 So does it typically

00:24:14.200 slow down on the second term?

00:24:15.900 No.

00:24:16.420 Typically what happens

00:24:17.660 is the president

00:24:18.880 often is weaker

00:24:19.840 in the second term.

00:24:20.940 So sometimes

00:24:21.760 if the other party

00:24:23.620 controls the House

00:24:24.680 and the Senate

00:24:25.340 or certainly

00:24:26.320 if they control

00:24:26.880 the House

00:24:27.320 even alone,

00:24:28.120 the arguments

00:24:28.620 for impeachment

00:24:29.140 increase.

00:24:30.060 I think the Democrats

00:24:32.020 have learned the lesson.

00:24:33.860 Republicans got hurt

00:24:34.760 in the end

00:24:35.320 when they impeached Clinton.

00:24:36.960 I think the leadership

00:24:38.020 of the Democratic Party

00:24:39.000 is not going to move

00:24:39.760 to impeach Trump,

00:24:40.680 though the radicals

00:24:41.580 in the party

00:24:42.060 are running

00:24:43.040 on that ground,

00:24:44.460 you know,

00:24:44.660 run to impeach him.

00:24:45.920 And some who ran

00:24:47.120 to impeach him lost,

00:24:48.400 but some won.

00:24:49.040 Do you have a relationship

00:24:49.740 with Nancy Pelosi at all?

00:24:50.960 Is there a...

00:24:51.460 I know her.

00:24:52.340 But nothing where

00:24:53.080 it's a communication

00:24:54.020 consultant?

00:24:55.160 Nothing like that?

00:24:55.880 No.

00:24:56.600 Yeah, because she's the one 0.95

00:24:57.480 that's kind of getting away

00:24:58.400 from it if you listen

00:24:59.160 to what she says.

00:24:59.540 I think that's right.

00:25:00.060 And I think Schumer too,

00:25:01.020 who I've known for a long time.

00:25:02.320 He went to Harvard Law School

00:25:03.280 as well.

00:25:04.160 I think Schumer

00:25:04.680 more influenced by Pelosi.

00:25:06.000 I think if Schumer

00:25:06.620 was the deciding fact

00:25:07.680 that she would probably say

00:25:08.600 impeach, impeach, impeach. 0.99

00:25:10.180 I don't know what happened

00:25:11.200 when Pelosi kind of

00:25:12.260 started saying,

00:25:13.420 hey, we've got to stop

00:25:14.120 this conversation

00:25:14.720 about impeachment.

00:25:15.540 But, you know,

00:25:16.180 they substituted instead

00:25:17.400 a thousand cuts of a knife

00:25:19.640 by having this investigation,

00:25:21.280 that investigation,

00:25:22.600 subpoenas.

00:25:23.700 That can be abused also.

00:25:25.400 I grew up during McCarthyism

00:25:26.680 when the House

00:25:27.520 Un-American Activities Committee

00:25:28.760 subpoenaed everybody.

00:25:29.740 Yeah.

00:25:30.180 And that was an abuse

00:25:31.180 of Congress

00:25:31.660 and some of the courts

00:25:32.380 so held.

00:25:32.980 So what do you think

00:25:33.580 about that?

00:25:33.980 What do you think

00:25:34.260 of what's going on right now

00:25:34.940 with the whole Mueller investigation?

00:25:35.880 I don't like it.

00:25:36.860 I don't think we needed

00:25:37.620 a special counsel.

00:25:38.980 I don't think we need

00:25:39.820 these investigations.

00:25:40.800 What I called for on day one

00:25:42.340 was a nonpartisan,

00:25:45.660 independent,

00:25:47.200 expert commission

00:25:48.280 to look into

00:25:49.780 the 2016 election,

00:25:51.940 which was a disaster

00:25:52.860 from every point of view.

00:25:54.060 I'm not talking about

00:25:54.560 the results.

00:25:55.040 I'm talking about the process.

00:25:56.220 Is there any credibility

00:25:57.100 in the Mueller investigation

00:25:57.980 that they're doing right now?

00:25:58.840 Is there anything

00:25:59.320 that's going to come out

00:26:00.140 and what are they

00:26:01.200 really afraid of?

00:26:01.940 What are they afraid of

00:26:03.100 that's going to come out?

00:26:03.700 I never thought

00:26:04.600 that President Trump

00:26:05.680 had anything much

00:26:06.460 to worry about

00:26:07.080 with the Mueller investigation.

00:26:08.300 I think he always had

00:26:09.220 much more to worry about

00:26:10.200 about the Southern District

00:26:11.700 of New York investigation

00:26:12.920 because that can look

00:26:13.720 into his business.

00:26:14.820 Dealings before he was president,

00:26:16.640 he would have no

00:26:17.260 constitutional defenses

00:26:18.280 against that,

00:26:19.540 whereas I think

00:26:20.220 if Mueller were to

00:26:21.180 make the mistake

00:26:22.060 of accusing him

00:26:22.900 of obstruction of justice,

00:26:24.300 for firing Comey

00:26:25.760 or anything like that,

00:26:27.040 he would have

00:26:27.480 constitutional defenses.

00:26:28.540 It can't be a crime

00:26:29.800 to exercise your

00:26:31.020 constitutionally authorized

00:26:32.720 political authority.

00:26:33.780 What is everybody

00:26:34.280 waiting for right now?

00:26:35.340 What is the waiting game

00:26:36.620 right now?

00:26:37.460 Well, I think people

00:26:38.820 are waiting to see

00:26:40.340 if they can make it impossible

00:26:42.620 for Trump to govern

00:26:44.160 by going after him

00:26:45.760 and everybody else

00:26:46.600 and diverting him

00:26:47.600 from his actions.

00:26:48.440 Look, I voted against Trump,

00:26:50.240 but when I'm in an airplane,

00:26:51.440 I root for the pilot.

00:26:52.760 I don't care who the pilot is.

00:26:54.320 I root for the pilot.

00:26:55.580 He's the pilot right now.

00:26:56.960 I want him to succeed.

00:26:58.940 I don't want necessarily

00:27:00.920 to succeed to the point

00:27:03.500 where he's reelected.

00:27:04.360 I think I want to see

00:27:05.100 who else runs against him.

00:27:06.580 That's not the point.

00:27:07.420 The point is he's president now.

00:27:08.960 I don't want to see him

00:27:10.000 have a terrible presidency.

00:27:11.500 It would be bad for America.

00:27:12.980 I want to see him

00:27:13.680 a successful president.

00:27:14.900 Then we can decide

00:27:15.800 who to vote for in 2020.

00:27:18.080 You've had strong opinions

00:27:18.960 about what's going on

00:27:19.880 with the college cheating scandal.

00:27:21.320 What is your biggest concern

00:27:23.260 with what's going on

00:27:23.940 with, is it Lori Loughlin

00:27:25.420 and Felicity Hoffman? 0.93

00:27:27.100 Some of these other names

00:27:27.820 that are coming up.

00:27:28.400 I think Yale was a part of it.

00:27:29.600 UCLA, USC, a lot of different names.

00:27:30.860 Harvard wasn't a part of it.

00:27:31.620 Well, the schools weren't part of it.

00:27:32.980 They were coaches,

00:27:33.840 particular coaches.

00:27:34.540 Sure, but the names

00:27:35.160 tied to the school.

00:27:35.940 Oh, sure, and it's

00:27:36.480 a terrible, terrible thing.

00:27:38.300 Look, I think we ought

00:27:39.460 to go back much more

00:27:40.380 to meritocracy.

00:27:41.460 I was so lucky.

00:27:42.680 I went to probably

00:27:43.520 the only college

00:27:44.340 in the United States

00:27:45.260 who was purely meritocratic.

00:27:46.840 I went to Brooklyn College,

00:27:47.800 just down the road here.

00:27:49.160 To get into Brooklyn College,

00:27:50.360 you either had to have

00:27:51.380 like an 87 average

00:27:52.500 in high school,

00:27:53.480 or if you didn't,

00:27:54.100 you had to take a test,

00:27:54.980 and you could pass the test.

00:27:56.700 Nobody asked you

00:27:57.300 who your father was,

00:27:58.100 who your mother was.

00:27:59.080 Nobody asked for a contribution.

00:28:00.420 There was no tuition.

00:28:01.740 I got in on the merits.

00:28:02.720 I took the test,

00:28:03.720 and I finished first in my class.

00:28:05.240 That's how I got from Brooklyn

00:28:07.960 to Yale Law School.

00:28:09.660 The same thing

00:28:10.140 at Yale Law School.

00:28:11.020 It was meritocratic.

00:28:12.040 I finished first in my class.

00:28:13.260 I was editor-in-chief

00:28:13.980 of the Yale Law Journal.

00:28:15.180 So Harvard offered me a job.

00:28:17.680 I want to go back

00:28:18.400 to the meritocracy,

00:28:19.860 where people aren't

00:28:20.700 given an advantage

00:28:21.480 to get into college

00:28:22.440 if you're an alumni child,

00:28:24.260 if you're an athlete,

00:28:26.540 if you have some other,

00:28:29.220 you come from a certain

00:28:30.080 part of the country.

00:28:31.040 I think schools

00:28:31.800 are much better off

00:28:32.760 if they're completely meritocratic.

00:28:35.120 You take a school

00:28:35.980 like Bronx High School of Science

00:28:37.920 High School

00:28:38.660 or Stuyvesant High School.

00:28:40.720 They're completely meritocratic.

00:28:42.220 You take a test,

00:28:42.840 you get in.

00:28:43.500 Yeah, so it turns out

00:28:44.780 the majority of the students

00:28:45.700 are Asian.

00:28:46.360 Good for them.

00:28:47.800 They study hard.

00:28:49.060 They work hard.

00:28:50.540 They have learned

00:28:51.540 how to take tests.

00:28:52.560 That's against

00:28:53.040 the Democratic Party argument.

00:28:54.440 I know.

00:28:55.160 You know what I'm saying again

00:28:56.300 because it's all about,

00:28:57.900 you know.

00:28:57.940 I believe that every student

00:28:59.480 should have a good education

00:29:00.740 and we should have schools

00:29:02.140 for people

00:29:02.640 very good schools

00:29:03.680 for people who didn't

00:29:04.360 get into Stuyvesant Town.

00:29:05.720 Stuyvesant.

00:29:06.300 But I don't want to diminish

00:29:07.440 the academic quality

00:29:08.620 of Stuyvesant

00:29:09.300 in the name of

00:29:10.400 identity politics.

00:29:11.320 When did that change,

00:29:11.960 by the way?

00:29:12.500 It hasn't changed

00:29:13.180 with those schools

00:29:13.880 but it's changed

00:29:14.820 with attitudes.

00:29:16.040 Attitudes have changed

00:29:17.140 and I have to tell you

00:29:18.220 in 50 years of Harvard,

00:29:19.280 there's no doubt in my mind

00:29:20.940 that the standards

00:29:21.540 have gone down considerably

00:29:22.760 as the result of

00:29:24.540 attempts to diversify

00:29:26.420 and never say anything

00:29:28.060 that's critical of a student.

00:29:29.340 Nobody gets a C anymore.

00:29:31.140 Every student is a B student.

00:29:32.980 At least.

00:29:33.720 B, A, A plus.

00:29:35.480 Now we're trying

00:29:35.960 to abolish grades.

00:29:37.140 You know what the impact

00:29:37.920 of abolishing grades

00:29:38.740 would be?

00:29:40.100 Family connections

00:29:41.000 will become even more important

00:29:42.320 because if you have

00:29:43.320 family connections

00:29:44.040 and nobody has grades,

00:29:45.520 guy with the family connections,

00:29:46.720 woman with the family connections

00:29:47.760 gets the job.

00:29:49.040 Grades gives you

00:29:49.860 an opportunity

00:29:50.420 to compete meritocratically

00:29:51.940 against wealthy

00:29:53.260 and powerful people

00:29:54.200 and if we abolish that,

00:29:55.720 well, I'm not a Democrat

00:29:57.060 on this issue.

00:29:57.620 Does a four-year degree

00:29:58.440 have the same credibility

00:29:59.260 today as it did

00:30:00.040 four years ago?

00:30:00.540 No, and it shouldn't.

00:30:01.400 But the one thing I do...

00:30:02.280 And it shouldn't.

00:30:02.620 What do you mean it shouldn't?

00:30:03.320 Because I think

00:30:04.200 we've watered down academics.

00:30:06.820 I think the one

00:30:07.400 where I agree with

00:30:08.360 even the liberal part

00:30:09.320 of the Democratic Party,

00:30:10.380 I would like to see

00:30:11.200 free tuition

00:30:11.880 for college

00:30:13.060 in as many places

00:30:14.380 as possible.

00:30:15.620 And I think there are

00:30:16.260 ways of doing that.

00:30:17.220 I have a plan

00:30:18.340 that I've always thought of.

00:30:20.020 Free tuition.

00:30:21.200 But when you want

00:30:22.080 to go to a school,

00:30:23.180 you have to pledge

00:30:24.400 contract

00:30:25.620 that you're going

00:30:26.680 to contribute

00:30:27.180 5% of your earnings

00:30:29.220 for the rest of your life

00:30:30.340 back to the school.

00:30:32.360 Free tuition.

00:30:33.960 Everybody gets

00:30:34.760 into the school.

00:30:36.140 5% back.

00:30:37.860 Nobody owes a penny

00:30:38.880 when they graduate.

00:30:40.360 And then...

00:30:41.280 What is 5%?

00:30:42.300 I give more than that...

00:30:42.920 That's a lot of money.

00:30:43.660 I give a lot more

00:30:44.380 than that to charity.

00:30:45.060 Are you kidding me?

00:30:45.580 That's a lot of money.

00:30:46.420 I give 10%.

00:30:47.220 For you,

00:30:47.800 because you earn

00:30:48.220 a lot of money.

00:30:48.840 No, but 5%,

00:30:49.840 that's a lot of money.

00:30:51.140 No, no, it's not

00:30:51.920 that much money.

00:30:52.400 You need to tell me,

00:30:52.660 so if I go,

00:30:53.360 I get free college,

00:30:54.440 I make 100 grand a year.

00:30:55.440 Okay, let's just average

00:30:56.180 right now it's 55K.

00:30:57.320 Yeah.

00:30:57.720 But do mean, okay?

00:30:59.220 Let's just say 50 now

00:31:00.400 and 100K later,

00:31:02.180 inflation, whatever.

00:31:02.780 Say it's 75.

00:31:03.400 Yeah.

00:31:03.980 75 times 40 is 1.5 million.

00:31:05.740 Okay.

00:31:05.880 5% off 1.5 million.

00:31:07.380 So you have an option.

00:31:08.540 Don't accept that option.

00:31:09.580 No, I love that.

00:31:10.020 Wait, no, no, no.

00:31:10.980 Everybody has that option.

00:31:12.260 When you apply to a school,

00:31:13.260 you have two options.

00:31:14.500 Pay tuition now

00:31:15.680 and be in debt

00:31:16.780 or sign this contract.

00:31:18.660 You choose.

00:31:19.640 If you think

00:31:20.440 you're going to make

00:31:20.900 a bloody fortune,

00:31:22.180 take the risk.

00:31:22.720 That's not free college.

00:31:23.300 Pay the tuition.

00:31:24.240 No, it's free college

00:31:25.040 for anyone who wants

00:31:25.760 it to be free college,

00:31:27.080 but it puts off

00:31:28.240 the decision

00:31:29.200 to when you have

00:31:30.520 a lot of money.

00:31:31.760 I think it really

00:31:33.000 makes people realize

00:31:34.280 what the word free means

00:31:35.420 because free to me

00:31:37.120 is the biggest

00:31:37.720 F-bomb in the world.

00:31:39.020 You know,

00:31:39.160 you've got to be careful

00:31:39.780 with the word free.

00:31:40.500 Of course, of course.

00:31:40.940 So, okay.

00:31:41.660 So now let me say

00:31:42.560 from my standpoint,

00:31:43.420 do you have any grandkids?

00:31:45.200 I do.

00:31:45.620 I have two grandkids

00:31:46.200 both in medical school.

00:31:47.600 Okay.

00:31:48.240 So today,

00:31:49.700 if I'm your kid,

00:31:51.020 okay,

00:31:51.340 and I'm 18 years old,

00:31:53.420 I'm a good student,

00:31:54.600 I'm okay,

00:31:55.300 I'm not crazy,

00:31:56.180 like, you know,

00:31:56.760 I don't have a scholarship.

00:31:58.300 Okay.

00:31:59.220 What would you advise me to do?

00:32:00.280 Would you still advise me

00:32:01.000 to go get a degree?

00:32:01.620 It all depends who you are.

00:32:03.260 If you have great

00:32:04.240 academic interests

00:32:05.280 and intellectual curiosity,

00:32:06.960 I say definitely,

00:32:08.080 yes, go for it.

00:32:08.760 Go to a good liberal arts college.

00:32:10.420 Don't think it's going

00:32:10.980 to help you that much.

00:32:11.940 If you want to be helped,

00:32:12.820 go to graduate school,

00:32:13.620 go to law school,

00:32:14.180 go to medical school,

00:32:14.880 go to business school.

00:32:15.960 But a good undergraduate degree

00:32:17.720 is very,

00:32:18.780 very important

00:32:19.180 if you have academic interests.

00:32:21.160 If you don't,

00:32:22.180 I would say go to a school

00:32:24.100 that will give you

00:32:25.400 the tools necessary

00:32:26.660 to get into

00:32:27.460 a business

00:32:28.300 or a trade.

00:32:29.280 Be trained for

00:32:30.420 the job you're going to have.

00:32:32.540 And I don't think

00:32:33.880 we should put that down.

00:32:35.120 If you want to go

00:32:35.540 to pilot school,

00:32:36.340 hey, I want to encourage that.

00:32:38.300 What is engineering school?

00:32:39.640 Engineering school

00:32:40.320 is a variation

00:32:41.720 of trade school.

00:32:43.360 Most engineering schools,

00:32:44.360 you don't get

00:32:44.700 a high dose of liberal arts,

00:32:46.700 but you learn

00:32:47.400 how to do things.

00:32:49.060 And I think we should be

00:32:50.660 pushing for a diverse array

00:32:52.440 of post-high school experiences.

00:32:54.980 So what is the big deal

00:32:55.780 with the scandal?

00:32:56.600 The scandal is what?

00:32:57.440 The fact that they pay

00:32:58.420 to get their kids in

00:32:59.220 even though they didn't qualify

00:33:00.120 in SAT and all this other stuff.

00:33:01.320 There are three groups of people.

00:33:02.920 There are the super,

00:33:03.640 super, super rich.

00:33:04.480 They weren't influenced

00:33:05.200 by the scandal.

00:33:06.020 It's very easy.

00:33:06.640 They give $100 million,

00:33:07.760 they have a building built

00:33:08.660 named after them,

00:33:10.000 and the kid gets in.

00:33:11.620 Then you have the poor people

00:33:12.800 who have no influence,

00:33:13.920 and they can't

00:33:14.780 buy their way in.

00:33:15.940 These are the middle rich people,

00:33:18.240 the people who are worth

00:33:19.160 $10 million,

00:33:20.540 $20 million,

00:33:21.620 but not $500 million.

00:33:23.440 They can't contribute

00:33:24.600 a building.

00:33:25.020 So they took the system

00:33:28.180 and they abused it.

00:33:29.800 And they said to themselves,

00:33:30.960 I'm not doing anything different

00:33:32.000 from what the billionaire

00:33:33.460 has done.

00:33:34.060 The billionaire bought

00:33:34.720 a building.

00:33:35.160 I'm going to buy a coach

00:33:35.940 or I'm going to rent him.

00:33:37.420 I'm not going to buy him.

00:33:38.140 So what is the scandal?

00:33:39.020 It's a crime.

00:33:39.680 It's a crime.

00:33:40.420 I know, I understand.

00:33:41.140 It's a RICO.

00:33:41.760 But for me...

00:33:42.980 I don't think it's a RICO.

00:33:43.800 I don't think that's going to hold up.

00:33:44.600 They're bringing it up as a RICO.

00:33:45.640 I know.

00:33:46.300 And I'm not sure

00:33:47.320 what Felicity Hoffman did 0.95

00:33:49.020 was a crime.

00:33:50.600 It is not a crime

00:33:51.540 under federal law

00:33:52.360 to bribe a private person.

00:33:54.080 I can bribe you

00:33:55.040 to make a better

00:33:56.060 television show for me.

00:33:57.140 That's not a crime.

00:33:57.700 I wouldn't do it.

00:33:58.520 But it's not a crime.

00:33:59.400 You have to bribe

00:34:00.000 a government official.

00:34:02.680 To be a RICO case?

00:34:03.600 To be any kind

00:34:04.440 of a criminal case.

00:34:05.280 Okay.

00:34:05.500 You can't bribe

00:34:06.700 a private citizen

00:34:07.520 except if there are

00:34:08.420 special statutes

00:34:09.300 that provide that.

00:34:10.220 So what is the difference

00:34:10.940 between a person

00:34:11.500 that gives a half a million

00:34:12.380 or a million and six million

00:34:13.340 versus the person that...

00:34:14.400 I went to Harvard

00:34:15.100 OPM program

00:34:15.880 and I stayed at the property

00:34:17.700 with the courses

00:34:19.260 doing Michael Porter.

00:34:20.140 All these guys were teaching.

00:34:20.600 Michael's a good friend of mine.

00:34:21.460 Yeah, Michael Porter.

00:34:22.180 And then they had

00:34:22.920 this other guy,

00:34:23.420 Lawrence Kulp from Danaher.

00:34:24.940 Brilliant, brilliant speaker.

00:34:26.320 And Lynette was running it. 1.00

00:34:27.800 But every day

00:34:28.360 we ate at this place

00:34:29.920 called the Chow Hall.

00:34:30.900 Okay.

00:34:31.520 So when I ate there

00:34:32.260 the first time

00:34:32.720 I was in the U.S. Army

00:34:33.480 before, I said,

00:34:34.080 Chow Hall,

00:34:34.580 why did they call it

00:34:35.280 also Chow Hall?

00:34:35.900 You know, U.S. Army Chow Hall.

00:34:37.360 No, no.

00:34:38.080 It's named after somebody

00:34:39.200 named Chow, Mr. Chow.

00:34:40.400 I'm like, oh, Mr. Chow.

00:34:41.660 So I go and I read

00:34:42.420 the whole thing.

00:34:42.800 Oh, this is a different Chow Hall.

00:34:45.500 It's a beautiful Chow Hall.

00:34:47.220 Incredibly built.

00:34:48.080 Beautiful place.

00:34:49.040 You know the only

00:34:49.680 president of Harvard

00:34:50.500 that doesn't have

00:34:51.220 a house named after him?

00:34:52.240 Every president of Harvard

00:34:53.260 has a house named after him.

00:34:54.440 I think the second

00:34:55.060 or third president of Harvard

00:34:56.240 his name was Hoar.

00:34:58.080 H-O-A-R. 1.00

00:34:59.440 And I've never been able

00:35:00.520 to figure out

00:35:01.240 why they don't have

00:35:02.440 a house named after him.

00:35:03.580 It's an absolute mystery.

00:35:08.200 So can I go to the,

00:35:09.820 yeah, I don't know if it's,

00:35:11.660 which one is this?

00:35:12.620 Did you go there?

00:35:13.640 Email. 0.98

00:35:14.100 He was at the whorehouse yesterday. 0.97

00:35:15.860 Right. 0.93

00:35:15.960 So what is the big deal?

00:35:18.600 If I'm going to give

00:35:19.320 a hundred million

00:35:19.760 and build a place

00:35:20.400 called Chow Hall

00:35:21.000 and another person

00:35:21.740 pays five million,

00:35:22.780 why am I not being

00:35:23.760 the one getting all this heat?

00:35:24.960 Because what you did

00:35:26.240 was legal.

00:35:26.920 In America, 0.65

00:35:27.640 we make sharp distinctions

00:35:29.260 between what might be

00:35:30.480 questionable morality-wise

00:35:33.260 and what's criminal.

00:35:34.720 And at least according

00:35:36.020 to the indictment,

00:35:37.400 these parents

00:35:38.120 and these coaches,

00:35:38.960 the coaches clearly

00:35:39.700 did something that was illegal,

00:35:41.120 if they took the money

00:35:41.980 and put it in their own pocket.

00:35:42.740 25 million bucks.

00:35:43.740 One of them.

00:35:43.800 But some of them

00:35:44.720 took the money

00:35:45.620 and at least gave part of it

00:35:46.820 to the program of the school.

00:35:48.900 People who did that,

00:35:50.060 the parents may not be guilty

00:35:51.380 of taking a tax deduction

00:35:53.260 if their part of the money

00:35:55.060 went to the school itself.

00:35:56.840 It's going to be complicated.

00:35:57.900 It won't be an easy case.

00:35:58.860 I think most of the parents

00:35:59.740 will plead guilty

00:36:00.460 and I think we'll see

00:36:01.580 a lot of plea bargains

00:36:02.560 and a lot of negotiation

00:36:03.780 as to what

00:36:04.840 the appropriate response is.

00:36:06.320 To me,

00:36:06.840 the real victims here

00:36:07.680 are the kids.

00:36:08.800 And, you know,

00:36:09.420 you're 15,

00:36:10.100 you're 16,

00:36:10.620 you're 17 years old.

00:36:11.640 Your parents are more interested

00:36:12.600 where you go to college

00:36:13.440 than you are.

00:36:14.420 For them,

00:36:14.800 it's prestige and status.

00:36:16.780 And these kids

00:36:17.980 are devastated.

00:36:19.820 Everybody in their school

00:36:20.740 knows now

00:36:21.720 that they bought their way in

00:36:23.020 and they're going to have

00:36:24.680 a really hard time.

00:36:25.700 And it also says,

00:36:26.760 you know,

00:36:27.060 my parents didn't think

00:36:27.960 I'm good enough

00:36:28.460 to do it on my own.

00:36:29.780 We had to cheat

00:36:30.440 to get me in.

00:36:31.300 That's a terrible,

00:36:31.940 terrible thing.

00:36:32.640 That's a tough one

00:36:33.280 right there.

00:36:33.760 Yeah, yeah.

00:36:34.460 So,

00:36:34.960 last topic here.

00:36:37.120 You were a,

00:36:38.140 were you a consultant

00:36:38.980 on the O.J. Simpson case

00:36:40.060 or were you one of the...

00:36:40.760 No, I was one of the lawyers.

00:36:41.560 So you were working

00:36:42.120 with Shapiro or Johnny Conkrum?

00:36:43.080 Yeah, I argued motions

00:36:44.320 and I was going to do the appeal

00:36:45.800 if he had lost.

00:36:46.920 But he won,

00:36:47.800 so I didn't do the appeal.

00:36:49.540 But you want me to show you

00:36:50.700 in 30 seconds

00:36:51.820 why he won the case?

00:36:52.940 You never see this

00:36:53.640 on television.

00:36:54.480 I'd be curious.

00:36:54.880 They found socks

00:36:56.880 of O.J. Simpson

00:36:58.380 which had the blood

00:36:59.200 of O.J. Simpson

00:36:59.900 and the blood

00:37:00.460 of a victim

00:37:01.140 of the murder.

00:37:03.300 What could be better evidence?

00:37:04.620 There were only two problems

00:37:05.640 with the socks.

00:37:06.740 The blood contained EDTA

00:37:08.660 which is an anticoagulant

00:37:10.080 not found in the human body.

00:37:11.540 It's a blood thinner.

00:37:12.480 If you had it in your body,

00:37:13.280 you'd die. 0.93

00:37:13.580 And it's used in test tubes

00:37:16.040 to prevent blood

00:37:16.960 from coagulating.

00:37:17.860 So that was pretty good proof

00:37:19.320 that Officer Van Adder

00:37:20.540 who had access

00:37:21.260 to the test tubes

00:37:22.240 simply poured them

00:37:23.440 on the sock.

00:37:24.440 And then the other thing

00:37:25.700 that was very important

00:37:26.580 is the socks had blood

00:37:29.000 on the outside,

00:37:30.860 a blood splatter.

00:37:32.000 The exact same blood splatter

00:37:33.600 on the second inside.

00:37:34.900 That makes sense.

00:37:36.080 But they also had

00:37:37.120 the exact blood splatter

00:37:38.220 on the third side

00:37:39.100 and the fourth side.

00:37:40.420 And if he had been

00:37:41.340 wearing the socks

00:37:42.160 when they splattered,

00:37:43.220 the third and the fourth side

00:37:44.280 wouldn't have the identical

00:37:45.300 mirror image blood splatter.

00:37:47.040 The only way you get

00:37:47.920 a mirror image blood splatter

00:37:49.260 is if the socks

00:37:50.200 are lying flat on the table

00:37:51.500 and you pour the blood

00:37:53.280 on top of it.

00:37:53.980 So we were able to prove

00:37:55.080 that the police set out

00:37:56.700 to frame somebody

00:37:58.080 they believed was guilty.

00:38:00.060 Framing a guilty man.

00:38:01.560 And the jury didn't accept that.

00:38:02.980 The jury said

00:38:03.460 we're not going to convict.

00:38:04.540 Come on.

00:38:05.140 Yeah, that's what happened.

00:38:06.900 And you don't see it

00:38:08.060 on the television shows.

00:38:09.260 They never produced

00:38:10.500 that piece of evidence

00:38:11.400 because they have a narrative.

00:38:13.180 They want you to think

00:38:13.900 that the only reason

00:38:14.700 he was acquitted 0.90

00:38:15.260 because he was black

00:38:16.180 and there were nine black

00:38:17.480 African-Americans

00:38:18.320 on the jury.

00:38:19.160 But there were three

00:38:19.920 non-African-Americans

00:38:20.900 on the jury

00:38:21.460 and they voted to acquit also.

00:38:23.880 So I asked Robert Shapiro

00:38:24.900 what he thinks about the deal.

00:38:25.900 Was he really guilty?

00:38:26.880 Now, what's your opinions

00:38:27.600 on that about that?

00:38:28.080 Well, you're the second person

00:38:29.940 to ask me that question.

00:38:30.760 The first person

00:38:31.320 was Benjamin Netanyahu

00:38:32.400 when he first got elected

00:38:33.620 prime minister of Israel.

00:38:34.640 He called me into his office.

00:38:36.140 We schmoozed a little

00:38:37.020 and then he took me

00:38:37.880 into his private room

00:38:38.700 and said, Alan,

00:38:39.200 I need to ask you something.

00:38:40.140 I thought he was going to ask

00:38:41.400 about the Iran deal,

00:38:42.240 the Palestinians.

00:38:43.000 He said, Alan,

00:38:44.640 did OJ do it?

00:38:46.020 I said, Mr. Prime Minister,

00:38:47.240 does Israel have nuclear weapons?

00:38:48.940 He said, Alan,

00:38:49.560 you know I can't tell you that.

00:38:50.940 I said, Mr. Prime Minister,

00:38:52.000 you know I can't tell you that.

00:38:53.460 A lawyer can never reveal

00:38:54.700 what he believes

00:38:55.760 about the innocence

00:38:56.460 or guilt of a client.

00:38:57.900 It's the same exact answer

00:38:58.860 Robert Shapiro gave.

00:39:00.140 I know you guys

00:39:00.540 haven't spoken for many years.

00:39:02.000 Not as interesting

00:39:02.640 with the prime minister of Israel.

00:39:04.320 Right, right.

00:39:04.980 Not as interesting as yours.

00:39:06.240 Obviously, I can talk to you

00:39:07.180 for hours

00:39:07.540 about many different topics,

00:39:08.540 but this has been a pleasure.

00:39:10.160 If you want to find out

00:39:11.100 more about

00:39:11.720 the case against impeaching,

00:39:14.480 not Hillary Clinton,

00:39:15.900 impeaching Trump.

00:39:17.100 We don't have

00:39:17.560 the Clinton version one.

00:39:18.580 But I have another book

00:39:19.400 coming out soon.

00:39:20.860 I have a book called

00:39:22.040 Defending Israel,

00:39:24.120 My Relationship

00:39:25.180 with my Most Challenging Client.

00:39:28.260 And it's a history

00:39:29.220 of my relationship

00:39:31.000 with Israel

00:39:31.580 over 70 years

00:39:32.780 from the time I was 10

00:39:34.440 until the current time.

00:39:36.780 Stories about every one

00:39:37.700 of the prime ministers,

00:39:38.660 every one of the presidents

00:39:39.520 who I interacted with.

00:39:41.020 And I think it should be

00:39:41.880 a really interesting read.

00:39:42.200 When is that coming out?

00:39:42.920 It'll be out in September.

00:39:43.860 Thank you so much for it.

00:39:44.920 Thank you so much.

00:39:45.060 Great interview.

00:39:45.620 Great questions.

00:39:46.120 Appreciate you.

00:39:46.860 Thanks everybody

00:39:47.540 for listening.

00:39:48.220 And by the way,

00:39:48.640 if you haven't already

00:39:49.300 subscribed to Valuetainment

00:39:50.500 on iTunes,

00:39:51.600 please do so.

00:39:52.840 Give us a five star.

00:39:53.920 Write a review

00:39:54.800 if you haven't already.

00:39:55.760 And if you have any questions

00:39:56.740 for me that you may have,

00:39:57.920 you can always find me

00:39:58.840 on Snapchat,

00:39:59.800 Instagram,

00:40:00.560 Facebook,

00:40:01.100 or YouTube.

00:40:01.780 Just search my name,

00:40:02.660 Patrick MidDavid.

00:40:03.680 And I actually do respond back

00:40:05.640 when you snap me

00:40:06.520 or send me a message

00:40:07.640 on Instagram.

00:40:08.660 With that being said,

00:40:09.320 have a great day today.

00:40:10.420 Take care everybody.

00:40:11.140 Bye-bye.

Valuetainment - June 18, 2019

Episode 322： Alan Derschowitz On College Cheating Scandal

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript