Valuetainment - Episode 327： What is Scientology

00:00:00.000 30 seconds, one time for the underdog, ignition sequence start, let me see you put em up, reach the sky, turn the stars up above, cause it's one time for the underdog, one time for the underdog.

00:00:16.860 I'm Patrick Bedevio, host of IETAM, and in this interview, I'm sitting down with a former member of Scientology Church who worked at the SEAL organization for nearly 15 years, and he breaks down the inside scoop of how he viewed Scientology and what the church did.

00:00:31.220 A lot of this stuff is almost unreal to believe, but I'll let him give you the story of what happened with his experience while he was with Scientology.

00:00:38.080 So I got a call from a few entrepreneurs, good friends of mine, they said, Pat, what do you think about Scientology?

00:00:42.240 And I said, listen, I think the best way to answer the question of what I think about Scientology, and I have my own opinions about it, I have a lot of friends who are Scientologists, and I've worked with many in the business who are Scientologists, I said, let me reach out and find out who we can interview that can tell you all about Scientology and we can go through questions.

00:00:59.080 So we contacted David Miscavige, he's the one that pretty much runs Scientology, and we realized the last time he did an interview apparently was 24 years ago with Ted Koppel.

00:01:08.260 And so then after that, our team did a little research, we came up with a name that we found, Mark Healy, we contacted him.

00:01:14.880 Now this may not necessarily be the favorite person that Scientologists would want me to interview, because it would be a lot different if we did David, but if we can't get David, we wanted to get somebody, we got Mark here.

00:01:24.600 And for some of you to know who Mark is, Mark worked with the church for 15 years from 1990 up until 2005, four years after L. Ron Hubbard died.

00:01:35.980 He was there for 15 years, the INT base, right, the international base, which is...

00:01:40.600 It's the facility that controls and runs Scientology internationally.

00:01:44.820 Internationally, and you guys got roughly about 5,000 people that work for the Church of Scientology, give or take.

00:01:50.240 Yeah, and at that facility there was about, it varied, but there was about maybe 5, 6, 700 people at that one facility in California.

00:01:58.440 Got it.

00:01:58.960 And he also wrote a book called Blown for Good, which we'll talk about the book, which, Blown for Good, he'll tell you what blown means.

00:02:04.560 Blown means when you step away from the church, because he stepped away from the church and some ugly things happened to him.

00:02:08.860 He's going to share some of that experience.

00:02:11.220 And aside from that, you were also in a recent Emmy award-winning series called Scientology with Leah Remeni, The Aftermath, right?

00:02:21.360 There's now going into three seasons.

00:02:22.960 You've been interviewed on that multiple times yourself, so maybe we'll talk about that a little bit.

00:02:27.260 But with that being said, thanks for coming on to Valuetainment.

00:02:29.780 Absolutely.

00:02:30.460 I am looking forward to this sit-down.

00:02:32.420 So before we get into it and get a little bit about your experience on your background, I know your mother was a Scientologist.

00:02:38.860 In 1979, she joined the church.

00:02:41.640 You were 6 or 7 years old at the time.

00:02:43.400 And then afterwards, all you know is Scientology until you started working at 16 until 31.

00:02:47.960 But what is Scientology to you?

00:02:50.920 When you think about the word Scientology, what does it mean?

00:02:54.040 Now when I think...

00:02:54.960 Then.

00:02:55.220 Then.

00:02:55.640 Then?

00:02:56.120 Yeah.

00:02:56.360 I just knew it as like a belief system.

00:02:59.420 L. Ron Hubbard has written thousands and thousands of policy letters and bulletins.

00:03:04.660 And the policy letters have to do with how you work in an organization and how...

00:03:09.440 And they also apply to business, Scientology businesses.

00:03:12.120 And then the bulletins have to do with the, like the teachings of Scientology and the auditing, the counseling they do in Scientology and the courses and that sort of thing.

00:03:22.980 So I went to a Scientology school when I was little.

00:03:26.800 I did Scientology courses at the Scientology Center at night.

00:03:31.100 And that's sort of all I knew as a kid was that's how we did things.

00:03:37.480 You just...

00:03:38.360 They have certain ways of going about living and that's all I knew as a kid.

00:03:44.820 So when I was recruited to work for the Sea Organization, it's almost expected when you're a kid in Scientology that the best thing you could possibly do is join the Sea Organization.

00:03:57.180 Because of?

00:03:58.080 Because that's the most dedicated group of Scientologists.

00:04:01.240 They dedicate a billion years.

00:04:03.520 You actually sign a contract, a billion-year contract, when you join the Sea Organization.

00:04:09.160 Meaning what?

00:04:10.140 Meaning if you live a billion years for the rest of your life, you're with them.

00:04:13.520 Yeah, like when you die, you need to come back the next lifetime to work for them again.

00:04:17.940 In the Sea Organization, sometimes when people die, they actually have an in-memoriam notice that goes out.

00:04:24.660 And it says at the end, this person is granted a 21-year leave of absence.

00:04:30.760 And we expect to see him back.

00:04:33.100 Interesting.

00:04:34.320 So let me ask you, did you yourself, your mother was one, until you joined.

00:04:38.740 So for your mother was at Scientology 11 years, from 79 to 90, until you joined and started working in the int base.

00:04:45.060 Did you look at Scientology as a religion or was it more a secret society type of a thing, like a Freemasons?

00:04:52.240 Was it more like a personal development, Tony Robbins type of-esque group that had been around longer than he had been around?

00:04:59.600 And it's kind of like the Earl Nightingale type of, you know, I'm learning how to process issues, how to work better.

00:05:05.800 How did you view it when you were in it?

00:05:07.640 Not today, how did you view it when you were in it?

00:05:10.120 Well, they kind of drilled into us the whole religion angle.

00:05:13.060 Like, we're a religion, we believe in, these are our religious beliefs.

00:05:17.880 So when I was there, I would say I viewed it as a religion, but at the same time, when you're at the international headquarters, there's crazy shit going on in you all over the place.

00:05:29.360 So when you see that stuff, there's a lot of mental gymnastics happening to justify we're doing this in the name of religion.

00:05:38.880 Like, this guy David Miscavige is beating people.

00:05:43.300 You actually witness him doing that?

00:05:44.640 Absolutely, absolutely.

00:05:46.140 When you say beating people, what do you-

00:05:47.760 Punching with your fist into the face, shoving, kicking, punching, kicking, throwing people across tables, against walls.

00:05:56.500 Who are the people that this is happening to?

00:05:58.300 Most of the people that he would give beatdowns to were international executives.

00:06:02.720 So the people that were in charge of running Scientology.

00:06:06.140 They were the most beat people at that property.

00:06:09.220 These are influential names.

00:06:10.900 These are influential figures within the church.

00:06:12.860 Yeah, if any Scientologist knew that the people, of the people that he was beating, they would all know their names.

00:06:20.540 Like Mark Ingber, Mark Yeager, Guillaume Lessev, Heber Jens.

00:06:25.600 Any of the people, Mike Rinder, these people that he would give a beatdown to were well-known executives in Scientology.

00:06:34.560 And they're also in the C organization.

00:06:36.620 So the people that are fighting and the people that are beating each other up are the top executives of Scientology.

00:06:45.240 So it's not, it wouldn't be a public member like a person who goes into an org in Cincinnati.

00:06:51.600 That person wouldn't see or be part of any beatdowns.

00:06:54.780 It's behind the scenes.

00:06:55.480 It's all behind the curtain.

00:06:57.060 Did it ever happen to you?

00:06:58.100 Did you?

00:06:58.580 On two occasions, David Miscavige struck me.

00:07:01.600 And one of the last occasions was in the 2000s.

00:07:05.500 It was shortly before I left.

00:07:06.800 And he punched me and he basically, I had glasses at the time, he punched me so hard in the face that my glasses broke.

00:07:14.900 And I went up against a cabinet and like kind of like a desk unit.

00:07:20.780 And when I, I didn't fall down or anything, but when I kind of regained myself, he saw that I was coming for him.

00:07:28.800 And he's not a big guy.

00:07:30.420 He usually has an entourage with him though.

00:07:32.520 And as soon as he saw the look in my eyes, these two guys grabbed me and they just took me out of the building.

00:07:37.740 And as I was being let out of the building, he said, he said, did you see that?

00:07:41.400 That guy was going to hit me.

00:07:43.420 And I said, as they were leading me out, I said, yeah, he said, did you see that?

00:07:47.880 That guy was going to hit me.

00:07:48.940 Now, let me ask you this, not, not to play the devil's advocate, but how many other people have come out saying what you're saying about David actually hitting people?

00:07:56.360 At least 20 or 30 other people.

00:07:58.380 20 other people have come out saying this has happened.

00:08:00.720 Absolutely.

00:08:01.080 So let me ask you, if that is the case, how come he's still running the entire thing?

00:08:04.560 Because they've got a group of 50 people there that they write affidavits for the people.

00:08:10.800 Right.

00:08:11.100 They give them to them.

00:08:12.020 Right.

00:08:12.320 And they sign them.

00:08:13.920 Yeah, but.

00:08:14.640 So he's got 50 people against the 30 people that say that never happened.

00:08:19.940 He never touched a soul.

00:08:21.860 David Miscavige never even yelled at anybody.

00:08:23.920 Once he found a little birdie outside in the grass and he picked him up and nursed him back to life.

00:08:27.980 I mean, the affidavits of these people writing, they're like, they're like pure fiction, but they've got, they could, and they, and if they wanted to, they could have 200 of those affidavits.

00:08:39.960 Has there ever been a deep investigation into the church or no?

00:08:43.120 Absolutely.

00:08:43.840 Like deep, deep investigation.

00:08:45.140 Absolutely.

00:08:45.720 I've seen government drone footage of the international headquarters that the FBI showed me on a laptop.

00:08:51.440 And what's been the court ruling afterwards?

00:08:53.520 There was, it was, it was dropped.

00:08:55.460 So, but you see how that, so, so I'm not trying to defend the Scientologist.

00:08:59.920 I'm not trying to defend the other side.

00:09:01.080 I'm just trying to get an argument on both sides to say, okay, if that's really happening, why, why hasn't the court would, because if the court, so somebody may process it and say, well, the court probably didn't because David paid him off.

00:09:13.060 Well, no, I can tell you exactly how they get out.

00:09:14.580 Tell me why.

00:09:15.520 Tell me how.

00:09:15.880 Because whoever has the best lawyers and whoever spends the most money on their legal team is the one who wins a case.

00:09:23.060 And Scientology, in the cases that have been brought against them, have, like, myself and my wife sued Scientology.

00:09:32.760 And Scientology spent tens of millions of dollars fighting that case.

00:09:37.460 Your case.

00:09:38.280 My case.

00:09:38.720 Just your case.

00:09:39.400 Just my case.

00:09:40.260 Scientology has an unlimited legal and private investigator and dirty tricks budget that they can pull from.

00:09:49.640 They have, they have an entire spy wing in Los Angeles.

00:09:54.760 In the 1970s, there was a group called the Guardian's Office, and that's the, that was the spy wing of Scientology.

00:10:02.900 They perpetrated the largest infiltration into the United States government in its history.

00:10:08.740 You can Google this.

00:10:09.600 Guardian's Office, FBI, it'll show up.

00:10:14.560 I think it was 11 of Scientology top officials were jailed, had jail time, based on this whole thing.

00:10:21.400 The FBI conducted a raid of several Scientology facilities.

00:10:25.160 I think it was in 1977.

00:10:27.520 And in that raid, they found documents that exonerated people that had, Scientology had sued.

00:10:34.220 And they found all this evidence about how Scientology basically framed these people.

00:10:38.720 All sorts of dirty tricks.

00:10:40.380 Okay.

00:10:41.100 That organization is called the Office of Special Affairs today.

00:10:45.080 And it's in Hollywood.

00:10:45.960 It's on 6331 Hollywood Boulevard.

00:10:48.240 And that organization is the one that hires the lawyers.

00:10:52.000 They hire private investigators.

00:10:53.440 Is it part of the church?

00:10:54.580 It's absolutely.

00:10:55.280 It's the people that work in the Office of Special Affairs are C organization members.

00:11:00.640 One thing you got to know about Scientology is that L. Ron Hubbard, if he wrote anything, that's, it's, it's in stone.

00:11:07.380 It can never be changed.

00:11:08.320 And L. Ron Hubbard wrote a policy that says when somebody leaves Scientology and if they attack Scientology or they speak badly about Scientology, the policy is to destroy them utterly.

00:11:19.880 Is that public to the members?

00:11:22.020 No.

00:11:22.600 That's public to the 5,000 that work there?

00:11:25.280 It's an internal policy.

00:11:27.080 Who knows?

00:11:27.620 Who has read that?

00:11:28.560 The 5,000 people that work there?

00:11:30.380 Most of them probably have.

00:11:32.060 And they know about it.

00:11:32.940 This is not a, this is not a, this is a common thing.

00:11:35.560 People would know it.

00:11:36.300 If they leave, you have to destroy them.

00:11:37.740 Even to a point, there's a book, it's called the Ethics Book.

00:11:41.140 And that is a book that any Scientologist can read.

00:11:43.180 Anybody can read it, even if you're not a Scientologist.

00:11:45.540 And in there it has crimes and high crimes and misdemeanors.

00:11:48.720 And in that it talks about if you associate with a suppressive person, if you help a suppressive person, if you give a suppressive person a platform to speak out.

00:12:00.500 These are high crimes.

00:12:01.760 So, either way, this group, the opposite of special affairs, one of their sole purposes is to destroy critics of Scientology.

00:12:12.160 That's all they do.

00:12:13.320 They actually have graphs on their wall in their desk unit of how many Scientologists they've cut connections from these suppressive persons.

00:12:21.320 Some may say, well, that's common in other religions as well, right?

00:12:24.200 Like, I was part of a group, then I watched the religion of what happened in front of my eyes when a couple of the people stepped away from the church.

00:12:31.380 Their families turned against those two people.

00:12:34.400 It was very ugly when that happened.

00:12:35.840 I'm like, wow, that was pretty ugly.

00:12:37.180 And they used to be lifted up and all this other stuff.

00:12:39.540 But just because something happened.

00:12:40.680 Yeah, there's one thing in Scientology it's called disconnection.

00:12:43.660 In other, they have different words for it in other religions.

00:12:46.640 Okay, that's one thing.

00:12:48.000 So, I leave and you don't want to talk to them anymore.

00:12:51.040 Okay, that's fine.

00:12:51.980 Okay.

00:12:52.480 But when you call Child Services to try and get my kids taken away, or you have private investigators camped outside my house.

00:12:59.480 Are you saying that from somebody else or did that happen to you?

00:13:01.760 No, that happened to me.

00:13:02.660 They call Child Services to take your kids away.

00:13:05.220 Child Services got an anonymous tip that our kids were in danger.

00:13:08.580 And Child Services showed up to our house.

00:13:13.620 When we were working with the FBI in the investigation, we gave all the information over this Child Services thing to the FBI.

00:13:22.660 Without saying it, they said, yeah, they did that.

00:13:26.720 So, that's what I'm saying.

00:13:28.240 You can say, oh, well, other religions.

00:13:30.280 I don't know how many other religions have millions and millions of dollars.

00:13:34.740 Oh, I know a lot of them.

00:13:35.620 They're dedicated to spending on private investigators to follow former members.

00:13:40.440 Okay, I don't know the exact thought on that.

00:13:42.200 Well, I'll tell you this.

00:13:42.920 There was an individual who worked at the international headquarters, and he left in the 1980s.

00:13:49.500 David Miscavige, and this is documented.

00:13:52.000 This has been reported on by the Tampa Bay Times.

00:13:54.760 Two private investigators were paid by David Miscavige, and they reported to David Miscavige.

00:14:01.720 They watched this former Scientologist who worked at the Ant Base for 25 years.

00:14:08.040 Two private investigators.

00:14:09.580 That was their whole life.

00:14:11.160 They were paid millions and millions.

00:14:12.480 Just two guys were paid millions and millions of dollars to watch one single ex-Scientologist.

00:14:19.620 That's one.

00:14:21.180 How important was that one?

00:14:23.020 He was the guy that David Miscavige, they have these levels in Scientology.

00:14:27.820 Yeah.

00:14:28.060 They have OT levels, operating Phaeton levels, and you pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to get through these levels.

00:14:33.620 How many levels?

00:14:33.960 I've seen 15 levels.

00:14:34.980 I've seen 10 levels.

00:14:35.900 How many levels are there?

00:14:36.540 They have eight levels.

00:14:37.720 Okay.

00:14:38.000 This guy that left, David Miscavige, thought he took nine and ten with him because they don't have a nine and ten.

00:14:48.180 Like they have, L. Ron Hubbard wrote a chart that goes from OT1 to OT15.

00:14:55.260 That's what I've seen, the OT1 to OT15.

00:14:57.600 Yeah, but L. Ron Hubbard only finished up to eight before he died.

00:15:01.100 He himself.

00:15:01.940 He himself only wrote.

00:15:03.400 Truth revealed is number eight.

00:15:05.100 He only wrote up to eight, so they've been telling Scientologists that these nine through 15 exist, but they don't.

00:15:13.140 That's fiction.

00:15:14.900 But when this guy that left, David Miscavige thinks, oh, I think he took nine and ten with him because the guy that left worked with L. Ron Hubbard.

00:15:23.780 So this is not a regular guy that left that they spent $25 million on.

00:15:27.980 This is a pretty influential guy that they left.

00:15:30.040 Okay, so let me.

00:15:30.800 But either way.

00:15:31.780 Yeah.

00:15:32.040 So you say it's like other religions.

00:15:33.900 Well, I worked there for 15 years.

00:15:35.620 Yeah, but this is.

00:15:36.140 And I've seen other.

00:15:37.140 I've seen other things.

00:15:38.300 And don't get me wrong.

00:15:39.080 I've seen other horrible stuff that happens in other cults and other religions.

00:15:42.660 But from working there for 15 years, I can tell you that Scientology, and Scientology has been around since the 50s, Scientology has spent 60 to 70 years perfecting this spy ops, this black ops type of engagement against former members.

00:16:03.780 So there might be other places that do it.

00:16:07.220 Scientology's spy operations are not low level.

00:16:12.180 They know how to do stuff.

00:16:14.040 Well, I mean, if you think about it, Enron.

00:16:15.900 Enron is a very big company, multi, multi-billion dollar company.

00:16:19.280 They have some of the best lawyers, better lawyers than anybody else at that time.

00:16:22.900 Yeah.

00:16:23.220 They still were taken down.

00:16:24.480 I mean, you can go through Barry Stearns.

00:16:25.820 These are $50 billion empires, bigger than Scientology, bigger than a lot of these.

00:16:32.080 These are massive empires.

00:16:33.880 And if the proper investigation is done, they still go down.

00:16:37.520 How come that hasn't happened to Scientology?

00:16:40.280 And I know Scientology has, give or take, 20,000 to 30,000 members.

00:16:43.420 I don't know the exact numbers.

00:16:44.480 You would know better than I would.

00:16:45.520 That's about accurate.

00:16:46.420 That's accurate.

00:16:47.020 20,000 to 30,000 members.

00:16:49.020 And, you know, the biggest name is probably Tom Cruise.

00:16:52.360 And you have Travolta.

00:16:53.440 I know in the past, Seinfeld dabbled with it a little bit.

00:16:56.240 But he says, I was never part of it.

00:16:57.360 I just took a few courses.

00:16:58.860 Brad Pitt used to be the one.

00:17:00.180 He used to date a girl who was a big Scientologist.

00:17:01.360 You know, he used to dabble with it a little bit.

00:17:04.460 You have some other names.

00:17:05.320 Katie Holmes, all these girls that were with Tom Cruise used to be a part of it.

00:17:08.540 One of Tom Cruise's ex-wife that introduced him to Scientology, she left.

00:17:12.980 Mimi Rogers.

00:17:13.580 Yeah, she used to be a Scientologist.

00:17:14.840 And Tom Cruise is a part of it.

00:17:16.060 Greta Van Susteren.

00:17:17.920 Susteren is a Scientologist herself.

00:17:19.560 And she works for Fox News.

00:17:21.320 You know, I don't know about John Travolta.

00:17:23.500 Aside from John Travolta's style, I dressed like John Travolta from Saturday Night Fever when I was in the Army.

00:17:27.480 He's got great taste.

00:17:28.540 He knows how to dance.

00:17:29.780 But I don't know if I would put John Travolta as a genius.

00:17:32.260 I don't know if I would put him in that category.

00:17:33.960 He's not their best spokesperson.

00:17:35.300 I would tell you, Tom comes across as a very smart guy to me.

00:17:39.260 Tom does.

00:17:40.220 When I saw Tom's interview with Matt Lauer, and he's going back and forth.

00:17:44.480 He may have, you know, some people said it hurt his career, but he made the comeback.

00:17:48.320 That interview, when you listen to him, there's parts of it where it's kind of like, you know, this guy's making sense.

00:17:53.880 And he's pushing Matt back there, going back and forth.

00:17:56.900 And Greta's not a dummy.

00:17:58.700 Greta's a smart person.

00:17:59.780 So if it's what you say it is, and you're not the only person that's saying this.

00:18:04.920 Why have so many smart, intelligent people have been turned on to this?

00:18:10.720 Why is that?

00:18:11.280 Is it just because of the power and the fame?

00:18:13.020 Or is it because the content has actually changed their lives?

00:18:16.240 I explain it like this.

00:18:17.700 Let's say you have a relationship problem.

00:18:20.300 Like you just can't get into relationships.

00:18:22.740 And you, some of the Scientologists says, hey, we have a course.

00:18:25.840 We can help you with relationships.

00:18:27.840 Sure.

00:18:28.080 I already know as a Scientologist, that is, and they call this a ruin.

00:18:32.640 Something that you have in your life that you can't figure out.

00:18:35.480 And you can't solve it.

00:18:36.840 And they say, we have a course that will help you with that exact thing.

00:18:40.600 And then you, it's 50 bucks, 100 bucks.

00:18:42.960 You do that course.

00:18:44.160 When you do that course, you find out there's actually another 10 things that are messed up with your life.

00:18:49.340 That you didn't even know were messed up.

00:18:51.040 You just wanted to sort out getting a girlfriend.

00:18:52.920 Okay, well now, they sell you another $5,000 worth of courses to handle those 10 problems that you figured out.

00:18:59.520 Okay, fast forward.

00:19:00.820 15 years later, your third divorce.

00:19:03.740 You spent a half a million dollars.

00:19:06.420 And you've been chasing this relationship thing that then turned into all this other stuff.

00:19:11.980 And it doesn't matter what your ruin is.

00:19:15.440 Scientology has a course that will handle that ruin.

00:19:18.000 If you're a person that is not good at communicating, they have a communications course.

00:19:22.980 If you can't get along with your family, they have a course called How to Get Along with Others.

00:19:27.000 You can do that course.

00:19:28.200 They've isolated, and this is the genius of L. Ron Hubbard.

00:19:32.940 He isolated all these different areas of life that people have problems with.

00:19:36.940 And they made these little $50 courses.

00:19:39.120 That's the cheese.

00:19:40.520 Once they get you in the trap, then it just goes like that forever.

00:19:44.160 All the way up to OT8, it's always a bait and switch.

00:19:47.420 All these things.

00:19:48.220 They say, oh, you've got these aliens attached to you.

00:19:51.000 So it's creating imaginary problems to have a solution for the imaginary problem,

00:19:56.980 which is called the Hegelian dialectic, which is...

00:19:59.940 Exactly.

00:20:00.380 I don't know if you're familiar with that.

00:20:01.620 I am, but this is the best part of it.

00:20:03.020 It's like a house of cards, this whole thing.

00:20:05.420 Right.

00:20:05.720 But you build it.

00:20:07.060 Right.

00:20:07.540 So you're the one...

00:20:08.160 It's an old tactic.

00:20:08.960 I mean, it's very...

00:20:09.320 They get you in.

00:20:10.180 Right.

00:20:10.340 You build the house of cards yourself, and you're navigating all these problems

00:20:14.700 that you have now essentially put in...

00:20:18.620 You've put in your own roadblocks in front of you, and they're saying,

00:20:21.940 oh, this is how we can get you through that roadblock.

00:20:24.860 And that's essentially what happens.

00:20:26.700 Now, I've talked to Scientologists that have gone all the way up to OT8,

00:20:30.600 and they're like, yeah, I got nothing.

00:20:35.020 Like, if I could have rewind and got rid of all that, I'd be right where I am right now.

00:20:40.820 You learn a lot of things in Scientology about yourself,

00:20:45.100 but most of those things are prompted for you to say.

00:20:49.760 So they are trying to get your money.

00:20:52.900 That's the bottom line.

00:20:53.940 They're trying to get your money.

00:20:55.220 And they're also trying to get you to get other people in so they can get those people's money.

00:21:00.920 And now here's another thing.

00:21:02.180 And not a lot of poor Scientologists.

00:21:03.700 If you know people who are in Scientology, most of those people that you know have money

00:21:09.080 because they don't need poor people.

00:21:11.860 They don't need people that don't have money because they're just like, what are they going to do?

00:21:15.960 They're going to do that little $50 course, and then what?

00:21:18.000 That's it.

00:21:18.820 Okay, that's not a good value for them to get in those sort of people.

00:21:25.720 And L. Ron Hubbard, I think it was in the 60s or the 70s,

00:21:29.220 he actually wrote this program, I think it was called Project Celebrity.

00:21:33.860 And he made a list of all the people that he wanted in Scientology and said, go, go get them.

00:21:38.920 And they've been doing that ever since.

00:21:41.040 They get one Scientology celebrity in, and then he gets one or two other ones in,

00:21:44.840 and then that one gets one or two other ones in.

00:21:46.600 And so, even though they only have 20,000, 30,000 people in Scientology,

00:21:51.880 yeah, 5,000 of those are giving them a few million bucks a year.

00:21:55.660 They don't pay any, like, they don't pay these 5,000 people that work there.

00:21:59.720 They're not making any money.

00:22:01.100 When you worked there, what were you making?

00:22:02.380 When you worked there for 15 years?

00:22:04.080 I was getting, if you got paid, it was 50 bucks, but then taxes got taken out,

00:22:09.020 and it was about 46 bucks, 24 cents a week.

00:22:11.680 I got, when I left, $46.26 a week, or 24 cents a week, I can't remember, FICA, SDI,

00:22:21.720 whatever they took out, but this is the thing.

00:22:23.620 I was working 120 hours a week, every week.

00:22:27.300 The schedule was about 110 hours a week, but we worked, sometimes we pulled all-nighters,

00:22:33.460 sometimes we pulled multiple all-nighters, but either way, it averaged out about between 110,

00:22:38.020 120 hours a week that we worked, 52 weeks a year.

00:22:41.180 You're sleeping, you're sleeping at the place.

00:22:43.080 Now, at the headquarters, they actually live right next to where they work,

00:22:47.080 but at the time when I lived there, I lived just down the street from this compound.

00:22:51.480 So you didn't live at the compound?

00:22:52.980 I didn't live at the compound.

00:22:54.080 I was restricted to the property, not allowed to leave the property,

00:22:57.120 which was probably for a year out of those 15 years I slept under my desk,

00:23:01.040 or in a closet, or something like that.

00:23:02.960 Oh, so you were not confined to have to live on the property.

00:23:05.460 You did live off the property.

00:23:06.540 I did.

00:23:07.380 So you had a car, you could go around, you could do your things.

00:23:09.720 I had a motorcycle, but most of the time I just walked back and forth.

00:23:12.800 Okay.

00:23:13.300 Because you hear some stories about, you know, you're confined, you cannot leave,

00:23:15.940 you have to watch the only TV that they're playing over there,

00:23:18.520 and they edit the videos and all this other stuff.

00:23:20.080 Absolutely.

00:23:20.600 But you actually lived off of campus.

00:23:22.440 But like a block away.

00:23:25.740 So if I'm a block away, well, let me ask you, can I date another girl?

00:23:28.960 Can I go to a bar?

00:23:31.420 Can I have a girl come over my place?

00:23:33.020 When you get off work, the bars are already closed.

00:23:34.960 They've already had last call by the time you'll get off.

00:23:36.720 And you get bars.

00:23:37.360 I mean, if you're in L.A., I know the right bars.

00:23:39.320 Not in Gilman Hot Springs, California.

00:23:41.600 Listen.

00:23:41.940 But here you go.

00:23:42.540 Any marketplace that can sell alcohol, they'll make the money.

00:23:45.000 But go ahead.

00:23:45.500 Yeah.

00:23:45.740 When I left in 2005, from 1990 to 2005, I got my Social Security statement.

00:23:50.800 It said for the entire 15 years that I worked there, I made a total of $29,000.

00:23:57.220 For 15 years of 120 hours a week.

00:24:00.380 I think I averaged it out one day between the all-nighters and all that stuff.

00:24:04.640 I think it was about 30 cents an hour.

00:24:07.860 30, 35 cents an hour.

00:24:09.480 Which is less than slave labor in China.

00:24:13.560 People that make iPhones in China are making more money than SeaWorld members.

00:24:17.720 And they get Sundays off.

00:24:19.060 We didn't get Sundays off.

00:24:20.120 We had to work seven days a week.

00:24:21.600 You said 20, how many thousand dollars in 15 years?

00:24:24.480 $29,000 in 15 years.

00:24:27.100 Do you have this to show it?

00:24:28.400 Absolutely.

00:24:29.020 I'll send it to you.

00:24:30.020 You have it?

00:24:30.660 I have it, yeah.

00:24:31.420 Okay.

00:24:32.060 So you made $29,000 in 15 years.

00:24:34.180 I made more money in the first three or four months after I left in 2005.

00:24:39.380 I made more money in that few months than I made in 15 years working for someone.

00:24:42.780 But how is that?

00:24:43.640 So, again.

00:24:44.700 So, here's the thing.

00:24:46.520 They're getting all this money from people.

00:24:48.320 They're not paying anybody anything.

00:24:51.120 And so it's basically a cash machine.

00:24:54.680 They're buying properties because they can't stockpile the money as a non-profit.

00:25:00.320 I don't know all the legalities of it, but I don't think you're allowed to hoard the money.

00:25:03.760 You've got to spend it.

00:25:04.580 And so they buy real estate with that money.

00:25:07.740 And then they renovate that real estate.

00:25:10.760 And then they get that property designated historical property.

00:25:14.540 And then, so they're making money on real estate.

00:25:16.840 They're making money on donations.

00:25:18.000 And really, as far as I can tell, the only thing that they spend money on is legal, private investigators, and dirty tricks.

00:25:27.960 That's like their, that's one of their biggest budget expenses is messing with former members to not have them tell what happened in Scientology.

00:25:36.520 And here's the reason.

00:25:38.100 People say that right now Scientology's got about $3 billion.

00:25:41.940 And a lot of that is soft assets.

00:25:46.700 If you had $3 billion, how much would you spend to keep it?

00:25:51.760 $500 million on legal?

00:25:53.360 That's nothing.

00:25:55.420 I'd spend it to keep the $3 billion.

00:25:57.360 But how many people out there like you can say that you worked 120 hours a week for many years for $29,000, you know, 30 cents an hour?

00:26:05.000 How many people also can say what you just said that you know of, that are out, that have left the church?

00:26:09.400 At least 100.

00:26:10.380 At least 100.

00:26:11.380 Yeah.

00:26:11.600 So here's my question.

00:26:12.620 How can an organization do that, period?

00:26:15.240 Under the guise of religion.

00:26:17.720 Because when you're...

00:26:18.600 Under the guise of religion, you can do that with your congregation?

00:26:20.660 Absolutely.

00:26:21.340 Yeah.

00:26:21.660 You turn this whole place into a religion, you just lock the door, keep these guys here all night long.

00:26:25.900 Because...

00:26:27.540 Wait a minute, that's a law?

00:26:28.780 That's a law?

00:26:29.540 Well, no.

00:26:30.480 The state or the federal government is not allowed to interfere with a religion.

00:26:34.360 Separation of church and state.

00:26:35.380 That's right.

00:26:35.880 You can't...

00:26:36.300 A judge can't say, you can't do it that way because the religious doctrines say this is how we do it.

00:26:45.600 So even today, a court order was issued in a case, like a ruling was issued,

00:26:52.680 in a couple that they basically gave about a million bucks to Scientology.

00:26:57.100 And they were ripped off.

00:26:58.260 They donated for things that other people were also donating.

00:27:01.440 So, like they said, oh, we're going to put a star on top of this building in Clearwater called the Superpower Building.

00:27:06.640 Well, they...

00:27:07.020 It's literally called that.

00:27:08.100 It's...

00:27:08.320 There's a building in Clearwater, Florida called the Superpower Building.

00:27:11.640 Does it say it on the...

00:27:12.540 Does it say...

00:27:13.100 Absolutely.

00:27:13.640 They call it the Superpower Building.

00:27:15.900 It's got a giant...

00:27:17.300 It's actually a pretty cool name.

00:27:18.600 Superpower Building.

00:27:19.160 If I go in there, am I going to have superpowers?

00:27:21.540 Is it just like X-Men and people like that are in there?

00:27:23.920 No, but you know the crazy thing is that when you leave Scientology and you speak out about it,

00:27:27.780 you're called a suppressive person.

00:27:29.620 And any Scientologist that runs into you, they have to run away.

00:27:33.680 They can't even look at you.

00:27:34.480 So you're a suppressive person.

00:27:35.120 I'm a suppressive person.

00:27:35.840 So what am I interviewing you?

00:27:37.220 You're called a PTS, a potential trouble source, because you're connected to a suppressive person.

00:27:42.500 But here's the thing I wanted to tell you.

00:27:43.920 I'm a PTS, Mario.

00:27:44.840 You're a PTS.

00:27:45.680 Just by being connected to me right now, you're a PTS.

00:27:48.800 Now, what if I would have interviewed David Miscavige?

00:27:51.200 Would I still be a PTS or no?

00:27:52.900 Well, no.

00:27:53.280 You're connected to me now.

00:27:54.380 That's it.

00:27:54.820 We're locked.

00:27:55.500 I'm a PTS for life.

00:27:56.720 Well, unless you disconnect from me.

00:27:59.080 You have to send me a formal letter saying,

00:28:00.960 I can't associate with you anymore because you've committed suppressive acts.

00:28:04.620 And then maybe, depending on how much money you give them,

00:28:07.480 they can take you off the list of being a PTS.

00:28:10.640 But this is my point about the superpowers.

00:28:13.240 If I walk into a grocery store and there's 10 Scientologists there,

00:28:18.280 they're going to run out of the grocery store.

00:28:19.720 They can't even look at me or be near me, okay?

00:28:23.320 Even if they've done superpower.

00:28:27.000 So I table the question, who's really got the superpowers?

00:28:30.940 I can scatter them like roaches.

00:28:33.760 Anyway.

00:28:34.100 Do you ever run into these guys?

00:28:35.300 Oh, I've run into people and they literally will turn their backs and walk away.

00:28:40.460 They can't even look at me.

00:28:42.160 They cannot even look at me because I'm a suppressive person.

00:28:45.860 And Scientology is a snitch culture.

00:28:48.540 So if there's another Scientologist in the egg aisle and I'm in the cereal aisle

00:28:52.340 with the goody-goody two-shoes Scientologist,

00:28:54.880 that other person, if they talk to me, that other person will write a report

00:28:58.620 and say, hey, I saw Joe Blow talking to Mark Headley.

00:29:02.120 And then that person will get pulled in and say, what the hell?

00:29:05.800 Why were you talking to Mark Headley?

00:29:07.340 In our industry, there's a little bit of that with me as well,

00:29:09.820 but that's a whole different topic.

00:29:10.960 But go ahead.

00:29:11.400 Okay, so you were saying that this superpower building that we have in Florida, right?

00:29:16.160 Yeah, so they were donating.

00:29:17.480 This couple was donating.

00:29:18.780 A million dollars.

00:29:19.960 Yeah, well, they donated different amounts for different things,

00:29:22.480 but they said, we're going to put this cross on top of this building.

00:29:25.040 Well, they told another 50 people that they were paying for the cross on the building.

00:29:29.260 So they basically just oversold the same thing to get money from people.

00:29:33.300 Got it.

00:29:33.540 Anyway, long story short, a judge ruled today that if you sign an agreement

00:29:41.260 with Scientology that says you're going to be,

00:29:44.000 I think they call it a parishioner agreement

00:29:45.820 or some sort of agreement to participate in Scientology,

00:29:49.780 when you sign that, it says in there that you will be subjected

00:29:53.140 to Scientology's arbitration rules.

00:29:56.600 So if you want your money back, you have to do it the Scientology way.

00:30:01.000 And in Scientology, it's a kangaroo court.

00:30:03.560 You're a suppressive person now.

00:30:05.120 You want your money back?

00:30:06.120 Screw you.

00:30:06.920 That's it.

00:30:07.440 End of story.

00:30:07.960 You're not getting your money back.

00:30:08.840 And your case doesn't withstand in the court.

00:30:13.100 Like you go in there and say, hey.

00:30:14.280 Our case was a separate thing.

00:30:15.580 In our case, we had different causes of action in our case.

00:30:19.360 And because the FBI was investigating Scientology for human trafficking,

00:30:24.040 our lawyers put all the eggs in the human trafficking basket,

00:30:29.460 which was one of our causes of action.

00:30:31.300 And they got rid of all the other causes of action,

00:30:34.480 physical assault and false imprisonment and whatever the other causes of action were.

00:30:40.560 And the FBI, who knows exactly what happened, but that case fizzled.

00:30:45.800 And then our case was dismissed because there wasn't human trafficking happening there.

00:30:50.060 So who has won against them so far?

00:30:52.120 Well, they've settled a lot of cases.

00:30:56.200 And I think I'd have to, this would have to be verified,

00:30:59.580 but I'm almost positive that any case that has actually gone to trial, Scientology is lost.

00:31:05.580 So if it goes to trial, they lose.

00:31:07.360 Give me one example.

00:31:08.360 Like what's gone to trial?

00:31:10.080 There was a case involving a guy named Larry Wallersheim.

00:31:14.120 And he sued the church for $30 million.

00:31:16.540 And they fought it for years and years and years.

00:31:19.140 And I was there in the church when they were fighting this case.

00:31:22.460 And they had this thing, this slogan, not one thin dime for Wallersheim.

00:31:26.820 And they fought it and they fought it and they fought it.

00:31:29.040 And the day it was going to trial, the Scientologists gave him a check for $30 million.

00:31:34.280 They gave him.

00:31:35.060 And is this on public information?

00:31:37.400 He goes around telling everybody he got a lot of dimes.

00:31:39.340 He got a lot of dimes for him.

00:31:40.740 So, okay, let's go back a little bit.

00:31:42.460 I know we'll come back to this again.

00:31:44.720 Why was L. Ron Hubbard so fascinating?

00:31:48.180 What made him?

00:31:48.940 So you see some of his interviews, the way he would speak, you know, and, you know, the stories.

00:31:54.300 I was a this.

00:31:55.320 I was a physicist.

00:31:56.400 I used to do this.

00:31:57.520 I used to be in a Marine.

00:31:58.920 I was a commander, you know, and then you do the research.

00:32:01.840 And twice he had to step down and this.

00:32:03.860 But why was he so fascinating that people looked at him and say, this is a brilliant man?

00:32:09.020 Why did that happen to him?

00:32:10.880 I think he was charismatic and I think he was full of shit.

00:32:15.980 So he was a good bullshitter.

00:32:18.080 And he would make up preposterous stories to impress people.

00:32:23.140 And a lot of people bought into those stories.

00:32:25.540 And like you said, he said he had this many medals and he was this and he was that and his childhood was this.

00:32:31.780 And he was a brother of the Blackfeet Indian, all this stuff.

00:32:36.620 And then when you actually, people start researching, they find out like 90% of what he said is complete bullshit.

00:32:43.020 So I think he was like a circus barker.

00:32:48.860 He was like a carnival barker.

00:32:50.060 He got people riled up and he got people excited and he said, this is what we're doing.

00:32:56.240 And it was a time in the 50s and the 60s when there was a threat of nuclear war and there were all the atomic bombs are going to go off.

00:33:05.920 And so people wanted something to grab onto and they wanted something to believe in.

00:33:10.740 And he was saying, we're against all that.

00:33:12.900 We're going to go off and do this.

00:33:14.840 And I think at that time it was sort of, we're going to be dead and we should try and do something.

00:33:22.300 Was that the pitch originally?

00:33:23.660 I think so, yeah.

00:33:24.100 And a lot of his early lectures, he talks about atomic bombs and what the whole planet could be wiped out tomorrow.

00:33:31.220 And there was always, and that's another thing in the Sea Org, which was if we don't do the job right now, we might not get another chance.

00:33:39.060 And we've got to be dedicated to the bone.

00:33:41.960 We've got to be dedicated because we've got so much work to do.

00:33:45.000 And if we don't do it, the whole planet's going to get wiped out.

00:33:48.300 So who did he convince to become a religion?

00:33:51.440 I mean, whoever he sold the idea to that approved it.

00:33:54.300 I mean, either it's brilliance or the people who represented the government that approved it to be a religion are idiots.

00:34:01.720 So which one is it?

00:34:02.780 Well, what happened was Scientology in the 60s actually got a tax-exempt religious recognition.

00:34:08.860 And then a lot of the money was going to Hubbard and they lost it for that exact reason because he was getting the money.

00:34:15.200 And you can't do that.

00:34:16.400 So they lost their tax exemption.

00:34:17.900 And then they fought that all the way up until 1993.

00:34:22.340 And the IRS granted them tax-exempt status in 1993.

00:34:26.400 But what led up to that was they filed thousands and thousands of cases against individual IRS agents.

00:34:34.100 They filed cases against the IRS.

00:34:36.500 They were suing them everywhere and anywhere in the United States.

00:34:40.960 The IRS.

00:34:41.760 They were suing.

00:34:42.380 Scientology was suing them.

00:34:44.700 Scientology is suing the IRS.

00:34:46.320 Yes.

00:34:46.620 The individual agents of the IRS, they had launched legal cases, thousands.

00:34:53.340 I think it was like 2,000-something legal cases against the IRS that Scientology filed.

00:34:58.520 When Scientology was about to get tax exemption, they had a billion-dollar tax bill.

00:35:06.100 Because they hadn't been paying taxes since they lost their tax exemption, I think, in the 60s or the 70s.

00:35:12.900 They owed a billion dollars.

00:35:15.140 If the IRS would not have granted them tax exemption, they would have been done.

00:35:19.860 In 1993, Scientology would be no more.

00:35:22.480 Because they didn't have a billion dollars.

00:35:24.700 Okay.

00:35:25.560 They went and met with the commissioner of the IRS at the time in 1993.

00:35:29.180 And they basically told him, if you give us tax exemption, this all goes away.

00:35:35.740 All the cases will disappear tomorrow.

00:35:37.560 They'll be done.

00:35:38.480 Gone.

00:35:38.840 They got tax exemption.

00:35:41.460 So, it's not like...

00:35:44.460 They bought their way into being tax exempt.

00:35:46.400 Exactly.

00:35:46.460 It's not like they got tax exempt.

00:35:47.540 So, they paid a billion dollars to get tax exempt?

00:35:49.800 No, no.

00:35:50.740 They didn't pay the bill.

00:35:53.100 They didn't pay the bill.

00:35:54.120 They got tax exemption.

00:35:56.780 And I think they settled any outstanding taxes for like $20 million, $20, $30 million.

00:36:02.300 And that was it.

00:36:03.100 You're good to go.

00:36:04.720 Who approved that?

00:36:06.300 I think the commissioner's name was Fred Goldberg, I think, was the commissioner of the IRS back in the 90s.

00:36:12.780 This is in the 90s when this became official.

00:36:14.580 Yeah, it was August 1993.

00:36:17.640 And now, here's the craziest thing in this whole...

00:36:20.300 1993, that's seven years after he died.

00:36:22.420 So, it didn't even happen while he was alive.

00:36:24.040 Nope.

00:36:24.980 And he had said that certain things in Scientology couldn't happen unless they were tax exempt.

00:36:33.100 So, there was pockets of money, millions and millions of dollars worth of money that were parked places that could only be unlocked if they became tax exempt.

00:36:41.600 These were things that L. Ron Hubbard had dictated before he passed away.

00:36:45.960 But it's not like the church down the street that's having a weekly Sunday service, and they're doing marriages, and they're doing funerals, and they're doing something for the public.

00:36:55.000 And for that reason, we give them a break.

00:36:58.440 Scientology is destroying families.

00:37:00.740 They're busting up relationships.

00:37:03.140 They're bankrupting people.

00:37:04.640 They're putting money on people's credit cards illegally.

00:37:07.000 They're doing all sorts of things that absolutely do not benefit the public.

00:37:11.600 But they're getting that same benefit of not having to pay taxes.

00:37:15.400 And because of that, that's how, from 1993 to now, they go from owing a billion dollars to having three billion dollars in assets.

00:37:25.100 Three billion dollars is not a lot of money for somebody to go after them, if you really think about it.

00:37:28.800 It's not.

00:37:29.420 But they're also, they're not that big.

00:37:31.600 They're just not that big.

00:37:32.500 What's the biggest the church ever was?

00:37:34.120 Is today the biggest it's ever been at 20,000?

00:37:36.340 I would say in the 90s.

00:37:37.840 I think in the 90s, they probably had, I'd say, 100,000 people.

00:37:41.800 Oh, so they've dropped off tremendously.

00:37:43.600 Oh, since 1996, at the international headquarters, L. Ron Hubbard wrote this policy that all statistics have to be graphed.

00:37:52.660 All.

00:37:53.380 And they have thousands and thousands of statistics that they keep in Scientology.

00:37:58.460 Scientology is micromanaged to the nth degree.

00:38:01.480 When we worked at the property, someone would come by every day and check our graph.

00:38:06.060 Every single day for every single person, they'd check your graph to make sure that you had marked it for the day.

00:38:11.780 That, like hourly during a day.

00:38:14.280 That's efficiency.

00:38:15.380 Okay.

00:38:15.980 It's not really because you spend a lot of time marking your graph and there's nothing really to put on.

00:38:19.860 Anyway, but regardless, they have statistics in the headquarters by years.

00:38:27.120 And since 1996, Scientology statistics across the boards, membership, enrollment, new people in, OT-8s, OT-5s, everything across the boards down.

00:38:41.220 Everything since 1996.

00:38:43.860 And I think the reason that is, is the Internet.

00:38:48.560 So the Internet is working against them right now.

00:38:50.540 Well, yeah, because they have this policy of disconnection.

00:38:53.480 And if you were in Scientology and you got kicked out and your family didn't talk to you anymore, that was it.

00:38:59.940 We never heard from you again.

00:39:01.060 So let me ask you some basic questions.

00:39:02.540 You know, religion questions.

00:39:03.560 So it's a religion.

00:39:04.240 What does Scientology believe happens when you die?

00:39:06.820 They believe that you come back.

00:39:08.500 Reincarnation.

00:39:08.980 Absolutely.

00:39:09.100 So they believe in reincarnation.

00:39:10.180 Yeah.

00:39:10.480 Who was Scientology's God?

00:39:11.980 Was there a creator?

00:39:13.700 No.

00:39:14.240 And you learn about, I mean, there's policies from L. Ron.

00:39:16.880 There's writings of L. Ron Hubbard where he says that Jesus is a pedophile.

00:39:20.960 I mean, they don't believe in God.

00:39:22.120 There's absolutely no, they say this when they try to get people in that, oh, no, you can be a Buddhist.

00:39:29.540 Oh, you can be a Christian.

00:39:30.540 Oh, you can be a Catholic.

00:39:31.560 That is 100% not true.

00:39:33.780 And even some of the crimes in Scientology are mixing practices.

00:39:39.140 So being a practicing Catholic and being a Scientologist, you can't do it.

00:39:42.920 It's not allowed.

00:39:43.740 But they believe, they teach you that you're the eighth dynamic, which is a God.

00:39:51.700 So you could be a God.

00:39:52.940 Yeah.

00:39:53.380 Now, that's a very effective method that other churches also use, that if you get it to a certain level, you could be a God.

00:39:59.640 Sure.

00:39:59.980 They say you are a God.

00:40:01.500 From day one, or you can be a God.

00:40:03.240 No, no, there is a God dynamic.

00:40:05.500 They have these different dynamics, which it goes from one through eight.

00:40:08.180 Yeah.

00:40:08.520 And the eighth dynamic is the God dynamic.

00:40:11.620 What is God to them?

00:40:12.560 Like, if you define God to them, and maybe it's a different definition for God.

00:40:15.460 I think they call it the creator or a force, a universal force.

00:40:20.840 Like, you can create whatever life you want to create.

00:40:22.620 You can create planets.

00:40:24.160 You can, if you, so, okay, now that's a different story.

00:40:26.740 Now we're getting a little different story.

00:40:28.360 But if you can create your own life and you're a God, maybe that's their interpretation that you can be your own God.

00:40:33.600 So, okay, so who created everything?

00:40:35.820 Is it going back to them of Dianetics, to three different concepts of Dianetics?

00:40:39.640 You know, the real, you know what I'm talking about.

00:40:41.800 Yeah.

00:40:42.040 So what created the planet?

00:40:43.960 What created?

00:40:44.800 That's hard to say because a lot of times L. Ron Hubbard goes into trillions and trillions of years ago,

00:40:51.160 and he talks about that there's billions and billions and billions of planets.

00:40:55.480 What's the craziest thing you ever read that he said?

00:40:58.280 Craziest thing.

00:40:59.360 I don't know.

00:40:59.800 That's a lot.

00:41:01.720 Give me one of them.

00:41:03.020 Like, something where, if somebody said, that's just craziness, what is it that you...

00:41:08.400 You can only wash windows with ammonia and water and newspaper.

00:41:13.540 Period.

00:41:14.420 That's it.

00:41:15.740 Windex is not allowed.

00:41:18.820 Like, stupid stuff.

00:41:20.760 Every time you use a car, you have to wash it.

00:41:24.560 No, I'm serious.

00:41:25.860 Don't worry about how it broke these things.

00:41:27.420 Every time you use a car, you have to wash it.

00:41:29.240 If you drive to the market and drive back, you got to wash your car.

00:41:32.080 You can wash...

00:41:32.920 You can only wash windows with ammonia and water and newspapers.

00:41:35.500 That's it.

00:41:36.040 You cannot use Windex.

00:41:37.320 What else?

00:41:38.600 I don't know.

00:41:39.360 That's what I'm saying.

00:41:39.940 There's so many bizarre...

00:41:42.120 Like, you can't use...

00:41:43.500 You can only use one kind of shoe polish for your boots.

00:41:46.680 Like, one brand.

00:41:48.760 Like...

00:41:49.320 But what's the psyche behind it?

00:41:51.160 What's the...

00:41:51.820 That's the...

00:41:52.220 That's the word Hubbard said.

00:41:53.420 I mean, that's what I'm saying.

00:41:54.440 It's just...

00:41:55.060 It's whatever way the wind was blowing that day.

00:41:58.160 So then, is it a lot of...

00:41:59.820 It's just...

00:42:00.720 I'm telling you.

00:42:01.700 It's just a bunch of bullshit.

00:42:02.880 That's why it's hard for me to say, oh, he said this one thing.

00:42:05.640 This dude has said so much...

00:42:07.580 But you know what it makes me think about?

00:42:08.780 I mean, there's volumes of bullshit.

00:42:09.220 Here's what it makes me think about.

00:42:10.240 It makes me think about, you know, some of these bigger families.

00:42:13.420 Like, Arnold Schwarzenegger, first time, when he met Jackie Kennedy's brother, John F. Kennedy.

00:42:21.380 When she met John F. Kennedy.

00:42:23.780 He went up to John F. Kennedy and he said, hey, so what's your favorite color?

00:42:27.820 And John F. Kennedy's answer was, oh, we only wear red.

00:42:31.780 He says, no, no, but what's your favorite color?

00:42:34.920 He says, we like red.

00:42:37.300 No, what's yours?

00:42:38.200 So these are some of the things you hear that are weird, but that's maybe a cultural ritual thing that they have for their family.

00:42:44.880 So are these a lot of L. Ron Hubbard's rituals that were passed down to everybody?

00:42:49.060 Oh, yeah.

00:42:49.520 Like, he would be seen as their god.

00:42:51.160 Yeah, yeah.

00:42:51.840 No, he is source.

00:42:53.360 They call him source.

00:42:54.460 L. Ron Hubbard is source.

00:42:55.500 Got it.

00:42:55.740 So if L. Ron Hubbard said, you can only wash windows with ammonia and newspaper and water, that's it.

00:43:02.960 Like, you get in trouble.

00:43:03.980 If you get a can of Windex out and you start spraying those windows, you're going to get a report written on you.

00:43:09.420 What do they think about promiscuity?

00:43:12.200 100% against that.

00:43:13.920 Oh, really?

00:43:14.380 In the C organization, if you want to have relations with a girl, you have to be married.

00:43:21.040 You can't even, like, do a test drive.

00:43:22.720 You have to be married, period.

00:43:24.060 So no sex before getting married.

00:43:26.040 Yeah.

00:43:26.360 So they're firm about that.

00:43:27.480 Oh, 100%.

00:43:28.440 I've, there's a...

00:43:29.600 Is there a specific type of a condom I have to use?

00:43:31.780 No, no.

00:43:32.480 Are they pretty open about it?

00:43:33.040 In the C organization, they have a prison camp that's called the Rehabilitation Project Force.

00:43:38.840 If you have sex with your girlfriend before you're married, you'll go to the Rehabilitation Project Force.

00:43:44.020 Because I need help?

00:43:44.940 Yeah.

00:43:45.260 You need to be rehabilitated because your morals, your moral compass is out of tune.

00:43:50.220 And you can spend a year, two, ten years on the Rehabilitation Project Force.

00:43:55.940 I mean, what is that rehabilitation?

00:43:57.680 Is it, like, such an exciting moment of rehabilitating with somebody?

00:44:00.440 No, no.

00:44:00.820 You do hard labor, like construction or janitorial stuff.

00:44:04.260 Oh, okay.

00:44:04.760 All day long, every day.

00:44:05.860 I'm thinking like I'm rehabilitating with another sexual partner to get it out of my system.

00:44:09.580 And there's no relations while you're on the RPF, period.

00:44:12.780 None.

00:44:13.440 No, none.

00:44:13.660 Now, you were married 13 years, though.

00:44:15.220 I've been married 26 years now.

00:44:17.200 But at the time, when you were leaving, you were worried because you were worried about what's going to happen with your marriage, right?

00:44:21.420 Yeah, well, I didn't see my wife a lot when I was there.

00:44:24.300 She worked in, she worked actually for David Miscavige.

00:44:27.220 She worked in the Religious Technology Center.

00:44:28.780 Wow.

00:44:29.220 And I worked in the production organization.

00:44:32.040 So we did video and film.

00:44:33.320 So you guys are still married?

00:44:34.620 We're still married.

00:44:35.280 We have three children.

00:44:36.120 Did your mom also leave the church?

00:44:37.740 No.

00:44:38.200 I've not spoken to my, my mom is disconnected from me.

00:44:41.320 I'm not allowed to speak to her.

00:44:42.000 She's alive?

00:44:42.980 Yeah, and my sister and my brother.

00:44:44.560 And they're still part of it?

00:44:45.560 I've not spoken to them since 2005.

00:44:47.040 What do they think of you?

00:44:48.180 They think I'm a suppressive person.

00:44:49.900 My mom told her family, who's not in Scientology, she said that if she spoke to me, it would risk the future eternity for all mankind.

00:45:00.700 She told her family that, who aren't in Scientology.

00:45:03.140 If she spoke to me, it would risk the future eternity for all mankind.

00:45:07.380 Some of this stuff, it is you're saying.

00:45:08.920 But she believes that.

00:45:10.180 Your mom believes that?

00:45:11.000 She believes that if she speaks to me, that all future mankind's eternity is at risk.

00:45:16.040 What do you believe in now?

00:45:17.900 I'm sort of like a karma guy, like do good things, good things will happen to you.

00:45:22.000 So you don't believe in God?

00:45:24.380 I'm curious, because this experience, what has it done to your spiritual life?

00:45:27.820 It's made me very cynical in terms of that angle.

00:45:31.800 So that's why I say, I do have this idea that there is something greater than us.

00:45:38.000 And there's some sort of force.

00:45:40.720 I don't say that I'm religious, I say I'm spiritual.

00:45:44.360 Do you believe there's a creator?

00:45:45.460 You think there is a God?

00:45:46.020 I think there's somebody out there that's doing something.

00:45:48.860 But I'm not, I don't believe in organized religion.

00:45:53.280 So Buddhism may be good for you?

00:45:55.060 Yeah, sure.

00:45:56.720 I've studied all sorts of things since I left.

00:45:59.340 But like I said, I'm a bit skeptical.

00:46:02.620 And I'm a bit sort of like, I do a double take or a second guess, a second look.

00:46:07.980 Because I think, hmm, I kind of did that.

00:46:10.960 Have you ever sent your mom like a Bible?

00:46:12.680 Just say, Mom, I want you to read this Bible, it may change your life.

00:46:15.100 No, we saw her at a funeral a few years ago.

00:46:20.060 She saw you?

00:46:21.180 Yeah, and that's when she said this to the family, was after that.

00:46:24.480 Because she talked to my boys.

00:46:27.000 I have three boys that she'd never met.

00:46:29.160 I have five, ten, and twelve-year-old.

00:46:31.080 So what does your twelve-year-old think about this whole thing?

00:46:33.440 Like, do they give it a hard time when you go to school or not really?

00:46:36.040 No, no, no one knows anything.

00:46:36.980 No one knows what's going on.

00:46:37.840 Maybe in high school, maybe they'll have to explain.

00:46:40.020 But even then, you know.

00:46:41.380 No one would care.

00:46:41.940 I'm a rock star, I'm on TV.

00:46:43.020 So what other rituals do they have?

00:46:46.020 What other things is there in Scientology that may be comparable to other things?

00:46:49.340 You know how you said promiscuity, they don't believe in that.

00:46:51.840 Well, that's across the board with religion.

00:46:53.840 Elber and Hubbard wrote a book called The Way to Happiness.

00:46:56.400 It's basically like the rewrite of the Ten Commandments.

00:46:59.780 Don't murder, don't steal.

00:47:01.560 So same, the Ten are the Ten.

00:47:02.680 Don't sleep with your neighbor, your wife's neighbor.

00:47:05.380 You know, all this kind of stuff.

00:47:07.100 They do Sunday services, they do marriages, but it's all under the guise of, we're a religion.

00:47:14.520 So they basically took the easy stuff that they could do, that would make them like other

00:47:18.900 religions, and said, let's do all that stuff.

00:47:21.000 Let's make a chapel.

00:47:21.840 I saw a model, I was reading somewhere, where it was almost like he was following a system

00:47:26.120 of being a martyr when he was married three times, and he says, everybody in my family

00:47:30.520 pretty much, you know, went against me because they wanted him to move, and he didn't want

00:47:34.740 to move to California.

00:47:36.300 And his daughter said, no, that's not actually the case.

00:47:38.720 It's a different story because my mom didn't want to go through it anymore.

00:47:41.440 And then his first son, L. Ron Hubbard Jr., who changed his name to Wolf, or I don't

00:47:46.240 know what the new name is.

00:47:47.480 The Wolf, yeah.

00:47:47.880 What happened there?

00:47:49.500 What happened with his family?

00:47:50.840 Because a lot of times you'll hear, you know, leaders go through what they go through, and

00:47:55.960 then there's a falling out.

00:47:56.960 Like when Billy Graham had a falling out with his son, Franklin Graham, everybody's like,

00:47:59.860 oh my gosh, if his own son doesn't want to follow him, maybe Billy Graham is somebody

00:48:04.060 that's Ronald Reagan's oldest son, Ron Reagan, you know, his biological son is against him.

00:48:09.780 He's a liberal.

00:48:10.500 What is up with Ronald Reagan, right?

00:48:12.860 So what do you know?

00:48:14.320 Did you ever meet his son?

00:48:15.520 Like, what do you know about the whole story of his kids against L. Ron Hubbard?

00:48:19.300 I've never met his kids.

00:48:21.380 I'm very good friends with L. Ron Hubbard's granddaughter.

00:48:25.400 And she escaped, I want to say like four or five years ago, from the exact same place

00:48:31.420 that I worked.

00:48:32.200 How long was she there?

00:48:33.540 She was there since she was born.

00:48:35.300 How long is that?

00:48:37.260 30 years.

00:48:38.180 Okay.

00:48:38.420 30, 35 years.

00:48:39.700 Got it.

00:48:40.700 And she is the daughter of Diana Hubbard, who is the only child of L. Ron Hubbard that

00:48:47.780 still is in the C organization.

00:48:49.800 That still is in the C organization.

00:48:50.840 She still works there.

00:48:52.360 And she works at the international headquarters.

00:48:54.280 And so her and Diana, her mom, it's like nothing.

00:48:56.780 There's no relationship at all.

00:48:58.040 No.

00:48:58.660 Because she escaped.

00:49:00.060 Wow.

00:49:01.060 So L. Ron Hubbard had other kids as well.

00:49:04.580 And those kids have not spoken out.

00:49:07.640 He's had seven kids.

00:49:08.520 I think seven is the kids he's got.

00:49:09.880 Yeah.

00:49:10.260 And I think the ones that are still around, well, I don't know about the ones before.

00:49:14.660 Like in Scientology, those other families and those other wives, they don't exist.

00:49:18.700 Like they're not, I didn't even know about them until I got out of Scientology.

00:49:22.400 Got it.

00:49:22.740 Like I found out he was married two times before.

00:49:25.440 Got it.

00:49:25.880 After I left.

00:49:26.760 Like what?

00:49:27.380 Like in Scientology history books, they're not in them.

00:49:30.480 They rewrote his history.

00:49:32.200 So as far as I know, there's about three or four kids that are still around doing stuff.

00:49:39.180 And I'm pretty sure that Scientology has them sort of taped up.

00:49:47.320 Like they're not going to say anything.

00:49:49.220 They're not going to say anything.

00:49:50.420 No.

00:49:51.000 So how about.

00:49:51.820 And I think it has to do with bank accounts.

00:49:54.180 Yeah.

00:49:54.740 So how about, is it Jenna Miscavige?

00:49:57.180 That's right.

00:49:57.800 So what happened there?

00:49:58.800 It's a very similar situation.

00:50:00.820 Besides, he's only been married once.

00:50:02.520 Jenna is his niece.

00:50:03.580 Jenna is his niece, who is the daughter of his brother.

00:50:08.260 And she worked at the headquarters as well.

00:50:11.200 And she also escaped.

00:50:12.400 And she wrote a book, and it doesn't paint her uncle very nicely.

00:50:18.460 And it also, in that book, it basically talks about how he took pleasure in separating her

00:50:26.500 from her mom and dad.

00:50:28.140 David did.

00:50:28.660 Yeah.

00:50:28.880 David Miscavige.

00:50:30.180 How he separated them pretty much every chance he got.

00:50:33.320 And he took pleasure in it.

00:50:34.660 That's kind of the takeaway from that book.

00:50:36.500 And she didn't have that great of an upbringing, just in general, in that Scientology world.

00:50:43.240 But his wife has been disappeared since, I think, 2007.

00:50:50.180 And there's a lot of speculation on where she is and that sort of thing.

00:50:53.380 But up until then, she was with him everywhere.

00:50:56.100 And anywhere he went, his wife was by his side.

00:50:58.200 When I worked at the property, if he showed up in your area, nine times out of ten, she'd be with him.

00:51:03.380 And she was his assistant.

00:51:04.760 He's chairman of the board, COB, and she was COB assistant.

00:51:08.760 And any time he came to your area or did an inspection, she was with him.

00:51:12.440 So for her to be not with him, that's a little suspicious.

00:51:16.200 His brother escaped from the church.

00:51:19.420 David's.

00:51:20.160 David's brother, Ron, Ron Jr., escaped from the church.

00:51:23.420 Ron was just on Joe Rogan.

00:51:25.800 Is that a different?

00:51:26.340 That's Ron Sr.

00:51:27.020 That's his dad.

00:51:27.740 Oh, that's right.

00:51:28.260 That's his dad that was on Joe Rogan.

00:51:29.340 His dad recently escaped.

00:51:30.840 Yeah.

00:51:31.380 And he doesn't have anything good to say about David.

00:51:35.100 His own dad.

00:51:36.120 His own dad.

00:51:36.900 And I knew Ron very well when I worked at the property.

00:51:40.480 His dad.

00:51:41.100 Yeah, because I was over the production areas and he was a musician.

00:51:44.800 And he was like a score composer musician at Golden Air Productions.

00:51:50.980 And I knew him very well.

00:51:52.800 And it was kind of weird to see Dave Miscavige show up to an area and to hear his dad say, yes, sir, no, sir.

00:52:01.460 Like his dad had to call him, sir.

00:52:02.740 Yeah.

00:52:03.340 Yeah.

00:52:06.340 So, I'm telling you, Dave Miscavige has the, the property's about 500 acres and I'd say David Miscavige ego just barely fits there.

00:52:18.000 I mean.

00:52:18.260 Who's he like?

00:52:18.760 What's his personality like?

00:52:19.940 Because there's not a lot of stuff to read up on this guy.

00:52:22.780 By the way, I've been given the video, the introductory video when somebody wants to introduce Scientology to you multiple times.

00:52:28.380 It's a DVD, you put it in, you watch it.

00:52:30.040 And it's a video of him.

00:52:30.760 It's him speaking, his hands are like this.

00:52:32.500 At the Celebrity Center.

00:52:33.060 Yeah, at the Celebrity Center.

00:52:34.280 And by the way, you know, I've seen that multiple times and I've listened to the story, the pitch, the presentation.

00:52:41.000 But like you said, Koppel, the last time the interview was done 24 years ago, there's really not a lot of stuff on him.

00:52:47.220 No.

00:52:47.560 So, is that intentional?

00:52:49.060 Absolutely.

00:52:49.840 So, what's the reason why it's intentional?

00:52:51.900 Because he is above that.

00:52:55.700 Got it.

00:52:56.180 So, it's.

00:52:57.160 I'll give you a good example.

00:52:58.380 When they did that interview with Ted Koppel, it won an Emmy, that show.

00:53:03.780 Ted Koppel got an Emmy.

00:53:06.200 David Miscavige didn't get an Emmy.

00:53:08.180 They made an Emmy for him.

00:53:10.020 Like, they made a replica Emmy and gave it to David Miscavige because he's really the one that earned the Emmy.

00:53:16.260 When David Miscavige went to a party, it was, I think it was like Oprah or it was like a Missy Elliott birthday party.

00:53:23.860 I don't know, something.

00:53:24.600 John Travolta was there, Oprah, Bill Clinton was there.

00:53:28.380 When he came back to the property, somebody said, sir, sir, is it true that you met Bill Clinton?

00:53:34.740 David Miscavige said no.

00:53:36.500 He met me.

00:53:37.200 That's David Miscavige.

00:53:38.760 That's David Miscavige.

00:53:40.980 He's hardcore.

00:53:41.580 I mean, from the 15 years that I worked there, he was pretty much, I'd say 99% of the time, he was a prick.

00:53:50.840 And every once in a while, like on rare occasions, when you'd be with him, he'd just be a d***.

00:53:59.080 He was pretty hardcore.

00:54:01.080 We'd be in meetings and he would punch people in the meeting, like while they're sitting.

00:54:07.640 You can't, you say things like that.

00:54:09.100 At the sitting at the table.

00:54:09.820 That's so hard to believe, though.

00:54:10.860 No, no, I'm telling you, dude, I've seen it so many times that we would get called, and that's the other thing.

00:54:17.840 Dude loves to have meetings.

00:54:19.460 So we're having meetings all the time.

00:54:22.340 So, like, you're in the production area, like I was over a lot of people, and you're trying to get work done.

00:54:28.900 You can't be sitting in meetings.

00:54:30.720 Five, six, seven hour meetings.

00:54:34.040 Oh, yeah.

00:54:35.320 We got all the time in the world, folks.

00:54:38.160 Nobody's going anywhere.

00:54:39.380 120 hours a week you're working.

00:54:41.100 Yeah, you could do a 10 hour meeting.

00:54:42.500 That's nice.

00:54:42.860 Squeeze that in, no problem.

00:54:43.780 There was a time period in the early 2000s when you would go to a meeting, and there's going to be one beatdown for sure.

00:54:51.860 There could be multiple beatdowns in a meeting, in a single meeting.

00:54:56.120 And because I was over a bunch of different production areas, so sometimes I'd have to go to, like, three or four meetings in a row.

00:55:03.480 So I would be at one meeting, and you'd really, I mean, in my book I compare it, it's called Blown for Good Behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology.

00:55:11.480 Because when I got out, that was the only thing I could find that was like that, where, oh, no, it's all wonderful.

00:55:16.780 Everything's wonderful here.

00:55:18.100 And there's propaganda, and there's a whole organization made to shoot propaganda films.

00:55:22.460 But when you're there, you're fearing for your life.

00:55:26.100 You're thinking, today could be, my number could be today.

00:55:29.660 I could get a beatdown in this meeting.

00:55:31.620 No one got killed, though.

00:55:33.020 No one got killed.

00:55:34.380 But if you go to a meeting.

00:55:36.160 You say fear for your life, though.

00:55:37.120 And you're not, no, fear for my safety.

00:55:39.200 Oh, for safety.

00:55:39.960 You're not allowed to hit back.

00:55:41.480 Okay?

00:55:44.000 Like, it's one thing.

00:55:44.940 If you want to go toe-to-toe with me, and I got a fighting chance.

00:55:47.960 Like, I'm pretty stocky.

00:55:50.280 I can use my weight.

00:55:51.620 Okay, but if I can't hit you back, what am I going to do?

00:55:54.560 It reminds me of the interview with Michael Francesi when he said, you cannot hit a made man.

00:55:59.320 Right?

00:55:59.540 You cannot hit a made man.

00:56:00.740 It's similar fundamentals of the Italian mafia.

00:56:03.400 Yeah.

00:56:03.600 You can't raise your hand on a made man.

00:56:04.680 So, that was why I pretty much knew when that one time when he punched me, and then I was like, you know, like, and he said, did you see that?

00:56:15.240 That guy was hitting me back.

00:56:16.200 I thought at that point.

00:56:17.500 Game over.

00:56:18.300 Was that in 03?

00:56:18.860 The Pope of Scientology.

00:56:20.540 I think it was, I want to say it was 2003, 2004.

00:56:23.760 So, you're already on your way.

00:56:24.940 You're almost on your way out.

00:56:25.820 The Pope of Scientology just gave me a beat down, and I, if left to my own devices, would have fought back.

00:56:32.500 I don't know how much of a future I've got here at this point, because now he knows that I'm unstable.

00:56:42.140 I'm an unknown commodity, so to speak.

00:56:45.060 But either way, he had an assistant that would, when his wife was there, but then he also had another assistant, was called his communicator.

00:56:54.700 And she had Band-Aids and a little fanny pack for people that would get bloody from him giving beat downs.

00:57:03.620 So, like, somebody would get punched, and then there would be, and this is the thing.

00:57:08.120 Now, here's the craziness.

00:57:09.500 You're sitting in a meeting, a conference room table with people around it, and people are getting choked and punched and shoved up against walls, and then they're getting a little cut.

00:57:18.880 And they're not getting out of their seats.

00:57:21.180 They're sitting there.

00:57:22.560 There's more meeting to go.

00:57:23.800 And then it's like, hey, and then it's like, it's not even, he's not even saying get that person in being.

00:57:29.980 He's just like, hey.

00:57:31.240 And the assistant's like, yes, sir, gets a Band-Aid, gives it to the person.

00:57:34.840 That person's putting, or someone's helping them put a Band-Aid on.

00:57:38.240 You cannot, that's the thing, you cannot make this shit up, okay?

00:57:42.460 This is from multiple people.

00:57:45.540 There's Jefferson Hawkins is a person who was at the international base.

00:57:49.140 He's the one who created those Dianetics Volcano commercials.

00:57:52.340 That's the guy who made those.

00:57:53.800 He wrote a book called Counterfeit Dreams.

00:57:56.100 There's another girl that was in the international management.

00:57:58.420 Her name is Amy Scobie.

00:58:00.020 She wrote a book called Abuse at the Top.

00:58:02.900 Ron Miscavige wrote a book.

00:58:04.260 My book is out there.

00:58:05.680 There's people that worked at that place.

00:58:08.480 And if you read my book, and then you read Amy's book, and you read Jeff's book, you'd be like, okay.

00:58:14.260 Exact same story.

00:58:16.100 Different perspective.

00:58:17.680 Different person.

00:58:18.960 Different areas they worked in.

00:58:21.080 But the overriding message is that David Miscavige micromanages the hell out of Scientology.

00:58:28.880 And that he's abusive.

00:58:31.000 He's got a temper, a huge temper.

00:58:33.580 He's got a giant ego.

00:58:34.720 And when you're at that property, you don't mess with him.

00:58:38.900 If he says jump, you say how high.

00:58:41.180 Is there a replacement coming up anytime soon?

00:58:43.020 No.

00:58:43.120 He'll be going for a while.

00:58:44.320 All the people that are under him, he has beat them or told all their deepest, darkest secrets to each other.

00:58:52.160 When I was there, they created this thing called The Hole.

00:58:56.120 And it was the International Management Building.

00:58:58.120 It's two double-wide trailers.

00:58:59.980 And all of the executives in Scientology are locked in those two trailers.

00:59:03.980 They're not allowed to leave.

00:59:05.040 They sleep there.

00:59:05.800 They eat there.

00:59:06.540 They do everything there.

00:59:07.920 Once a day, they're marched down to a facility that has some showers.

00:59:11.760 And they can take a shower.

00:59:13.020 And then they're marched right back up there.

00:59:15.860 And all they did all day long was have seances and confess crimes.

00:59:21.200 All day long.

00:59:22.500 He said, you guys are in here until you confess all your crimes.

00:59:25.740 And no one leaves until you do that.

00:59:29.080 I left in 2004.

00:59:31.100 I talked to a girl who left in, I want to say 2010.

00:59:35.460 They were still in there.

00:59:37.180 They were still confessing their crimes.

00:59:39.060 So if you worked in a group of ten people and you were the boss,

00:59:42.260 and all of these nine people under you were all confessing their crimes to each other,

00:59:46.100 like the horriblest things they did that destroyed Scientology

00:59:50.040 or screwed up a whole plan or program here or there,

00:59:53.500 when you leave, who's going to take over that?

00:59:56.920 No, I know you screwed up that.

00:59:58.240 No, you screwed up this.

00:59:59.480 They're all, I think, if David Miscavige got hit by a bus tomorrow,

01:00:04.220 I think 90% of those people would just be like, I'm out.

01:00:08.020 Really?

01:00:08.440 Oh, yeah.

01:00:09.400 So let me ask you a question.

01:00:10.440 Because they know he's going to, if they, that's the other thing.

01:00:12.940 When you're there, you know that if you leave,

01:00:17.480 they're going to make your life miserable.

01:00:20.860 Let me ask you this.

01:00:21.780 And the only reason I left, because I knew, I'd rather be dead than to be there.

01:00:27.040 Seriously, you say that?

01:00:28.220 Oh, absolutely.

01:00:28.960 I contemplated just driving into a wall and just killing myself.

01:00:33.660 You're being serious.

01:00:34.740 Absolutely.

01:00:36.100 Suicide.

01:00:36.800 Death would be a better existence than living there.

01:00:41.300 When you were planning on leaving, did you and your wife have a conversation about leaving?

01:00:45.080 If you say anything to anyone.

01:00:47.020 Even your wife.

01:00:47.720 Even your wife.

01:00:48.400 Boom.

01:00:48.780 You're done.

01:00:49.340 So when you left, how much longer did your wife leave?

01:00:52.200 A few weeks.

01:00:53.440 Most people there weren't allowed on the internet.

01:00:55.700 I was, because I was over a research department and I was over a bunch of production areas,

01:00:59.760 I was setting up internet stations.

01:01:02.280 So I was allowed to get on the internet.

01:01:04.300 It says 05.

01:01:05.260 So 05, Facebook came out.

01:01:06.580 04.

01:01:06.860 04?

01:01:07.520 Yeah.

01:01:07.840 This is in 03, 04.

01:01:09.780 I was on the internet.

01:01:10.580 I had a Hotmail account that nobody knew about.

01:01:13.060 That you use on the outside.

01:01:14.380 That I used.

01:01:14.760 Kind of like Hillary Clinton stuff.

01:01:16.140 I used on the side.

01:01:17.340 Yeah.

01:01:17.480 Anyway, my wife knew that I had that email account.

01:01:21.040 But no one else knew that.

01:01:22.980 When I left, she called her sister, who wasn't at that headquarters.

01:01:28.500 It was just her sister who lived in Los Angeles.

01:01:31.600 And she said, hey, can you email Mark something?

01:01:34.100 I got a new phone.

01:01:35.040 Because after I left, they gave her a different phone, so I couldn't call her.

01:01:37.760 They said, she said, can you call, give Mark, email Mark and give him this new number.

01:01:44.260 My phone got switched, and he's on a project.

01:01:46.120 I just want him to know my new number.

01:01:48.600 And so then, over a few weeks, we orchestrated how we could get her out.

01:01:52.800 How you can get her out.

01:01:53.900 And when I escaped, I drove off on a motorcycle.

01:01:58.400 Did anybody chase you or not?

01:01:59.500 Absolutely.

01:02:00.060 They ran me off the road in the security truck.

01:02:02.600 Because I saw your cover of the book.

01:02:03.840 Yeah.

01:02:04.320 It shows a motorcycle with two cars behind you.

01:02:06.280 Yeah.

01:02:06.400 Right after that picture, they drove me off the road.

01:02:08.720 And when they drove me off the road in the security SUV, somebody called 911.

01:02:14.680 And that person saved my life.

01:02:16.500 Because if the cops wouldn't have shown up, I would have gotten right back.

01:02:20.680 Are you still in contact with that person that saved your life?

01:02:23.540 No.

01:02:23.860 I never knew who it was.

01:02:24.700 It was an anonymous caller.

01:02:26.100 Called 911.

01:02:26.980 Got it.

01:02:27.920 But the police, by the time, because the Scientology guys, they have a scanner.

01:02:32.780 So as soon as they heard that the police were coming to sort this out, they left.

01:02:38.980 And the cops pulled me over.

01:02:41.400 They said, what the hell?

01:02:42.920 They knew what the hell before they got there.

01:02:45.820 As soon as they saw where my address was, they said, oh, he lives at the property.

01:02:49.320 And that cop called for backup.

01:02:52.440 And they escorted me into the town, away from the property.

01:02:56.320 Because the town is about 15 minutes from where it's in the middle of the desert, the compound.

01:03:02.000 So if you escape on foot, nine times out of ten, they catch you.

01:03:05.760 They just get you and bring you back.

01:03:07.900 What do you mean they catch you?

01:03:09.020 Like, who's chasing you down?

01:03:10.540 They have a drill.

01:03:11.860 When someone leaves, it's called a blow.

01:03:13.840 Blow, yeah.

01:03:14.360 Okay, so someone who's left is referred to as blown or so-and-so blew.

01:03:20.440 They have a drill there at the property called the blow drill.

01:03:24.540 So if somebody escapes, there's about 50, 60 people that snap into action.

01:03:29.120 They call hotels.

01:03:30.300 They run, they go on the internet.

01:03:32.640 They look up your credit card account to see where your last charges were.

01:03:36.160 This will blow your mind.

01:03:37.460 They have people that work for Verizon, Sprint, AT&T.

01:03:41.200 If you have a sister or a brother or whatever that's got a phone account,

01:03:46.320 they will tap into their phone account and see if you called them.

01:03:49.860 Come on.

01:03:50.340 When I got my dossier, a guy that escaped from the Scientology compound,

01:03:56.600 he had my dossier from the Office of Special Affairs.

01:04:00.180 They have all the phone calls I made for months,

01:04:03.280 who I called, how long, and how long the conversation was.

01:04:07.960 I'm telling you, you go like, oh, they're just like other religions.

01:04:10.400 Really?

01:04:10.780 You think so?

01:04:11.540 So what do you foresee taking place with Scientology?

01:04:14.120 If you know this much that you know, and you're on Leah Romani,

01:04:17.400 and you're doing all the things that you're doing,

01:04:18.940 what do you foresee taking place?

01:04:20.820 I don't think I can talk enough about it.

01:04:25.420 Because if I do this show with you,

01:04:28.140 and one person gets saved from not getting into it,

01:04:31.380 or one person whose daughter is dabbling with it,

01:04:34.280 it manages to get them out.

01:04:35.760 It's totally worth it.

01:04:37.980 100%.

01:04:38.460 You're a crusader of wanting to stop everybody and anybody from getting involved.

01:04:41.760 I spent 15 years in that hellhole.

01:04:44.820 If I can make it so anybody doesn't have to spend a day in that,

01:04:48.620 then it's worth it to me.

01:04:50.780 It's worth it.

01:04:51.820 But yeah, back to the blow drill.

01:04:56.240 These people are activated, and they will find you.

01:04:59.800 They found me when I left.

01:05:01.720 They found my wife.

01:05:02.660 When my wife escaped, she got on a Greyhound bus in Riverside.

01:05:07.740 And I told her to go a totally different way so they wouldn't know where she was going.

01:05:12.720 I told her to turn off her phone so they wouldn't be able to track the GPS.

01:05:16.120 When she got to wherever it was, the misdirection,

01:05:20.860 when she got there, she didn't know how to use a phone card

01:05:23.740 because we grew up in this bubble.

01:05:26.960 So she went to go make a phone call, and it only took phone cards.

01:05:29.860 It didn't take coins.

01:05:30.980 She didn't know how to call.

01:05:31.980 She didn't know how to get a phone card.

01:05:33.200 She didn't even know how to call me without a...

01:05:35.100 There's no way to do it.

01:05:36.380 She turned on her phone.

01:05:37.420 When she got to Vegas, they were waiting for her at the bus station.

01:05:43.000 When she got off the bus, there was two people from the international headquarters

01:05:46.260 standing there waiting for her.

01:05:47.800 Were you there as well?

01:05:48.660 No, no. I was in Kansas City.

01:05:50.560 So what happened when she got there?

01:05:52.080 She sat down in the middle of the bus station.

01:05:54.620 And this is all in my book.

01:05:55.720 It's actually pretty crazy.

01:05:57.100 She sat down in the middle of the bus station and told them

01:06:00.000 if they touched her, she would scream.

01:06:03.000 And so they watched her sit in the bus station.

01:06:05.380 And when her bus came, they watched her get up and get on the bus and go.

01:06:08.560 And while that was happening, they called me.

01:06:11.060 And I didn't know they...

01:06:12.120 How did they even have my number?

01:06:14.100 New number you have.

01:06:15.020 I totally knew.

01:06:15.720 Phone, knew everything.

01:06:16.640 They just called me.

01:06:18.120 Hey, we got Claire.

01:06:19.560 We got your wife.

01:06:20.420 She's not coming.

01:06:21.160 And I'm literally losing my mind on the other end

01:06:23.280 because I thought I had planned it out pretty good.

01:06:25.780 And then about an hour later, she called me and she said,

01:06:28.220 no, they didn't get me.

01:06:28.920 I'm on the bus.

01:06:29.540 I'm coming.

01:06:30.400 That's a light story.

01:06:32.280 On this season of The Aftermath,

01:06:35.380 there is an escape story that is unbelievable.

01:06:39.160 When you hear...

01:06:39.880 You've got to watch.

01:06:40.720 When you watch and you hear how this girl escaped,

01:06:43.940 and this is a girl that escaped, I want to say, like two years ago.

01:06:47.340 So Scientology would say this never happened.

01:06:49.320 No one has to escape.

01:06:50.280 If somebody wants, they can just walk right out the door.

01:06:52.540 No, no.

01:06:52.860 This girl escaped in the most insane way that you could possibly believe,

01:06:57.260 like that you would see in a movie.

01:07:00.400 And there was another couple that tried to escape,

01:07:02.860 and they were intercepted that this girl knew and talked about.

01:07:05.480 What is Leah Remini's purpose of doing what she's doing right now?

01:07:09.120 What is her outcome?

01:07:10.300 Because, you know, she was on Howard Stern.

01:07:11.600 Oh, yeah.

01:07:11.980 And on Howard Stern, she said, look, this works.

01:07:13.600 Just leave me alone.

01:07:14.280 If it works, it works.

01:07:15.220 Leave me alone.

01:07:15.640 And then she turned into wanting to step away.

01:07:19.200 What is her reasoning to get to this point?

01:07:21.880 Like, listen, there are people that leave the church,

01:07:23.960 and they just go about their business.

01:07:25.560 But she's in Hollywood, and she's in Hollywood going against

01:07:29.120 and coming out with something like this and wins an Emmy.

01:07:31.000 What was her motivation to have the tipping point of saying,

01:07:33.620 screw it.

01:07:34.220 I don't care if I lose friends.

01:07:35.300 I don't care what happens.

01:07:36.060 I have to go out there and tell the story.

01:07:37.500 What happened to her?

01:07:38.500 Well, I think she would best answer that.

01:07:41.360 But from what I've been able to ascertain, she saw a glimpse of what happens behind the scenes.

01:07:50.540 So she saw, she was friends with Shelly Miscavige.

01:07:54.780 They would trade cards and gifts and Christmas and all that stuff.

01:07:58.920 They were basically like, they were friends.

01:08:00.780 As friends as you could be with Shelly Miscavige and her being a Scientology celebrity.

01:08:05.160 And when Shelly was disappeared and just vanished, and suddenly birthday cards aren't getting answered

01:08:12.680 and notes aren't getting answered, she was writing to Shelly.

01:08:16.560 What happened to Shelly?

01:08:17.500 Shelly was David Miscavige's wife, and she was basically, according to people that were there,

01:08:23.720 she did some stuff that Dave didn't like.

01:08:26.020 And so he was like, you're done.

01:08:27.480 You're out of here.

01:08:28.540 And he shipped her off.

01:08:29.520 The place where she's most likely at, or has most likely been at, is a facility called

01:08:34.660 the Church of Spiritual Technology, which is a secret compound up in the mountains, up

01:08:39.560 near Big Bear and Lake Arrowhead.

01:08:41.500 At that property, they put all of L. Ron Hubbard's writings, they etch them into metal plates.

01:08:47.640 And they put all of his recordings onto golden records.

01:08:50.240 And they seal them in titanium capsules.

01:08:54.920 And they dig vaults into sides of mountains that are nuclear proof.

01:09:00.640 And they store all these writings.

01:09:02.400 Because they believe when the whole place is blown up and obliterated,

01:09:06.180 that it's going to be like someone's going to find these.

01:09:09.560 You're thinking she's over there right now.

01:09:11.280 That's where she is.

01:09:11.800 Because there's only about maybe 10 or 15 people that work at that facility.

01:09:15.680 How public was she?

01:09:16.940 Like, when David was up, was she public in the videos and the talks?

01:09:20.280 Absolutely.

01:09:20.800 If he was at an event, she was standing right by his side.

01:09:22.940 And she's no longer there?

01:09:23.920 For how long?

01:09:24.980 Since 2007.

01:09:26.020 So you think that may be one of the reasons why she decided to come out and go against it?

01:09:29.300 No, no.

01:09:29.760 She's not against him.

01:09:30.860 She just screwed something up and he got pissed at her.

01:09:33.140 No, no, no.

01:09:33.740 Not Shelly.

01:09:34.140 I'm talking about Leah.

01:09:36.300 I'm talking about Leah.

01:09:36.640 So Leah was at a wedding.

01:09:40.200 She was at Tom Cruise's wedding to Katie Holmes.

01:09:42.360 And David Miscavige was the best man in their wedding.

01:09:45.460 Where's Shelly?

01:09:46.940 She wasn't there.

01:09:49.300 Scientology billed it as the wedding of the century.

01:09:52.020 Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes.

01:09:53.240 David Miscavige's wife's not here.

01:09:55.200 She didn't come.

01:09:56.180 She didn't get an invite.

01:09:57.520 I don't think so.

01:09:58.920 And Leah was like, and she asked, where's Shelly?

01:10:02.440 That's what happened.

01:10:03.540 She asked, where's Shelly?

01:10:04.700 And then she got in trouble.

01:10:05.720 And she had to go get interrogations and this thing called sex checking, which is where you have to basically confess whatever crimes you have against Scientology and against David Miscavige.

01:10:15.800 And she got a little taste of what happens in the real Scientology.

01:10:21.780 So most of your Grant Cardone's and your Bob Duggan, these big millionaire guys that give money to Scientology, they don't see any of this.

01:10:31.860 And I'm pretty sure that if they did see it, that might give them a reason to go like, whoa, hold on a second.

01:10:40.280 But when you're a Scientologist, you're trained to, as soon as somebody starts talking bad about Scientology, that's it.

01:10:48.120 You cut, that's it.

01:10:48.820 You block it.

01:10:49.600 You just go, nope, I'm not hearing it.

01:10:52.000 Like you, you shut it off.

01:10:53.520 You cannot hear anything bad about Scientology.

01:10:55.920 And that's really how they continue on is this policy of disconnection.

01:11:01.180 That disconnection is the control mechanism that they use to keep people in Scientology.

01:11:07.940 Because if every ex, there's more ex-Scientologists than there are current Scientologists.

01:11:13.320 Of course, if it's 100,000 to 20, that's 80,000 that are no longer part of it.

01:11:17.500 So if they heard what those people had to say about what happened to them, then most people would be like, I don't think so.

01:11:23.480 I'm out of here.

01:11:24.060 So let me ask you this other question.

01:11:25.400 So you've had dealings with, I'm assuming you've had dealings with probably Cardone and Cruz.

01:11:30.480 You've had some dealings with some of these guys.

01:11:32.180 What was your dealing like with Tom Cruz?

01:11:33.960 When I was at the international headquarters, he needed to audit somebody.

01:11:39.540 And most of the people there have been in Scientology for a long time and had done Scientology courses and counseling outside of, before they got into the Sea Org.

01:11:48.920 Well, I got into the Sea Org when I was 16, so I didn't do anything.

01:11:51.560 I haven't even read Dianetics to this day.

01:11:53.100 And so he needed somebody to basically be like a guinea pig for him to practice on.

01:11:59.120 Tom.

01:11:59.740 Yeah, and I was that person.

01:12:01.400 So he did all sorts of Scientology processing on me.

01:12:03.920 How was Tom like when you dealt with Tom?

01:12:05.600 He's a great guy.

01:12:06.520 He's a little over the top.

01:12:08.240 He's always the double handshake guy.

01:12:10.940 He's the, do you need anything?

01:12:12.180 Do you need a water?

01:12:12.840 Do you need this?

01:12:13.500 Do you need that?

01:12:14.140 Do you need that?

01:12:14.600 You sure?

01:12:15.040 Everything good?

01:12:16.040 That's Tom.

01:12:17.540 And that was in...

01:12:18.420 So a cool guy.

01:12:19.240 That was in the early 90s.

01:12:20.800 Yeah.

01:12:21.000 And he was kind of a newbie in Scientology at that time.

01:12:25.460 He had said that.

01:12:26.200 He'd been in it for a while, though.

01:12:27.280 Well, he wasn't doing anything.

01:12:29.220 Right.

01:12:29.740 He was just a Scientologist.

01:12:31.020 He wasn't doing anything.

01:12:32.280 When you're at the international headquarters and you're doing courses, now you can call yourself a Scientologist.

01:12:37.380 Got it.

01:12:37.960 He was with Nicole Kidman at that time.

01:12:41.140 And I don't even think they were married at that time.

01:12:43.280 And she was at the property, too.

01:12:44.940 She was doing courses in the same room with him.

01:12:46.860 And where he was doing the counseling with me, she was right there doing courses.

01:12:52.820 She was doing the PTSSP course, which is where you learn about potential trouble source and suppressive people.

01:12:58.520 So she was studying about me and what a PTS would be.

01:13:01.220 She was doing that course 10 feet from where we were doing the counseling.

01:13:03.900 And so was Kirstie Alley.

01:13:05.320 They had Kirstie Alley there as a prop.

01:13:06.900 Because you can't set up, like, a little super, super exclusive course room for Scientology celebrities and them be the only two celebrities.

01:13:16.200 So they threw Kirstie in there as a prop.

01:13:18.100 And she's doing something that was totally 100% useless.

01:13:22.400 Anyway, but they weren't even married yet.

01:13:25.900 And at the time, he was shooting.

01:13:27.920 I think he just finished shooting Days of Thunder.

01:13:29.980 He had, like, the longish kind of hair.

01:13:32.000 A lot of people say it's not a good me.

01:13:33.140 I've watched that 50 times in the Army.

01:13:34.720 When I was there, I think I was, like, 17, 18.

01:13:40.040 So to you, it's like it's Tom Cruise.

01:13:41.440 Come on.

01:13:42.100 What are you going to do?

01:13:43.140 I thought, this guy.

01:13:44.620 And that's what I remember.

01:13:46.340 Holy.

01:13:47.860 I'm going to get to hang out with Tom Cruise for a few months.

01:13:51.300 Anyway, fast forward to the next time I saw him was in 2004.

01:13:56.020 14 years later.

01:13:57.020 Yeah.

01:13:57.560 He never.

01:13:58.640 He came to the property.

01:14:00.440 And he arrived in a helicopter.

01:14:02.400 He was whisked in.

01:14:03.280 He did whatever he did, and he left.

01:14:05.200 I think he did a lot of research for films, Mission Impossible films and stuff like that.

01:14:09.060 He did at the property.

01:14:10.500 And there was a huge library we had in the castle where we did all the film shooting.

01:14:14.540 And he basically had free run of the whole place.

01:14:17.220 Anyway, he was at the property and getting toured around.

01:14:20.660 We had just built a ton of stuff, editing post-production bays, online bays, all these avid edit bays, all this cool stuff.

01:14:27.400 And he was getting a tour.

01:14:29.900 And I was in one of the areas when he was walking through.

01:14:33.700 And he was like, Mark.

01:14:34.980 And I was like, ah.

01:14:36.720 So even then, he was chill with you.

01:14:38.700 He was.

01:14:39.040 He was chill.

01:14:39.540 But at that time, he was a totally different dude.

01:14:42.900 Oh, really?

01:14:43.560 Oh, yeah.

01:14:44.240 He was like, he was hardcore.

01:14:47.220 In too deep with David.

01:14:48.740 Yeah.

01:14:49.120 And at the time, Dave would tell us, I just told Tom that I beat the shit out of all you guys.

01:14:56.140 And he said, if I need it, he'll come over here and he'll beat the shit out of you guys.

01:15:01.500 And he was basically, so at that point, Tom knew what was going on.

01:15:07.300 Dave was telling Tom what he was doing.

01:15:09.340 Is that a conspiracy when David told Tom that you've got to leave Nicole Kidman?

01:15:12.300 Like that whole thing.

01:15:13.300 Is that just a story?

01:15:15.040 Okay, so you don't know enough to comment on that one.

01:15:19.060 I'll tell you what we knew at the property.

01:15:20.620 Right.

01:15:21.200 Fact, fiction, I don't know.

01:15:23.040 Because it was all what we were told.

01:15:25.880 It was kind of like, if Dave Miscavige says that Nicole Kidman is sleeping with Ewan McGregor

01:15:30.680 and she's pregnant, even though Tom is sterile, then she's an SP.

01:15:36.160 That's what we were told.

01:15:37.720 So that was the rumor that was going around the base, was that Tom and Nicole both had assistants.

01:15:44.080 And both of those assistants were Scientologists.

01:15:47.300 And both of those assistants reported up to the church on every move they made.

01:15:52.500 Through that information, it was ascertained that Nicole had cheated on Tom because she was pregnant.

01:16:01.860 And as far as everyone knew, including Tom, he was unable to have kids.

01:16:06.500 So that she was pregnant meant that she was sleeping around.

01:16:11.380 So that's what we were told.

01:16:13.260 I wasn't there.

01:16:14.360 I wasn't in the bedroom.

01:16:15.000 I have no idea what happened.

01:16:16.700 But Marty Rathbun, who had since left, did many interviews where he said that he was tasked with getting Tom back in to the fold.

01:16:25.280 That was one of the things that they used to basically get him back in.

01:16:29.120 So it may have never happened.

01:16:31.000 It may have been a conspiracy.

01:16:32.120 Because obviously he ended up having kids afterwards.

01:16:35.480 Right.

01:16:35.820 Okay.

01:16:36.340 But either way, when he divorced her, he was back in hardcore.

01:16:42.080 And I think that was in the early 2000s or late 90s.

01:16:45.800 So I read about the fact that L. Ron Hubbard in the 70s, he just kind of said, I'm going to go live on a ship for, he pretty much lived on a ship for like a decade or something like that in the 70s with some friends.

01:16:57.140 And it would come and they go.

01:16:58.220 And a lot of his philosophies got clear on this ship, apparently.

01:17:02.460 That's where the Sea Org was started.

01:17:04.020 In 1965.

01:17:05.400 Right.

01:17:06.460 He was being basically hunted by different governments.

01:17:11.580 And he had to find a place to go where they couldn't get him.

01:17:16.380 And that ended up being in the ocean.

01:17:18.760 Is this also documented, by the way?

01:17:20.020 Absolutely.

01:17:20.660 Because I know there was a lot of countries he couldn't even go park, you know, he couldn't even go.

01:17:24.600 They couldn't even dock the boat there.

01:17:25.740 Dock the ship.

01:17:27.860 So this is actual factual that these events.

01:17:30.200 I'm pretty sure.

01:17:30.980 There was six countries that he couldn't go to.

01:17:33.680 I was going to say, there's a certain thing where I think in certain countries his passport was not valid there.

01:17:39.620 Like he could not travel to that country.

01:17:41.280 And then after that is when he decided to come back and he calls it the Sea Org.

01:17:46.040 And that's sort of a lot of the inspiration came from that ship.

01:17:48.980 Yeah.

01:17:49.100 So that's where he wrote a lot of the counseling procedures and a lot of the courses were all written in that 1960s, very early 70s period.

01:18:00.040 Was when a lot of these things were tested on people.

01:18:03.340 Right.

01:18:03.620 And then codified.

01:18:04.900 And then he would write it.

01:18:06.380 And then they would send that out to different Scientology organizations.

01:18:09.600 In the 70s, the Sea Organization moved to land.

01:18:13.980 And when they moved to land, they eventually ended up in Clearwater.

01:18:21.840 And the Clearwater, that giant facility in Clearwater, is called the Flag Land Base.

01:18:27.800 Because the Flag Ship is the ship that controls all the other ships.

01:18:34.020 So when he landed in Clearwater, that's where Flag ended up.

01:18:38.500 And now we're on land.

01:18:40.000 It's called the Flag Land Base.

01:18:41.280 And to this day, it's called the Flag Land Base.

01:18:43.020 Same thing.

01:18:43.540 Yeah.

01:18:43.800 And that's what I'm saying.

01:18:46.040 When L. Ron Hubbard says it's the Flag Land Base, it's the Flag Land Base.

01:18:49.580 So it's never going to change to anything else because he's not writing any new stuff.

01:18:55.340 I thought it was interesting that he went away and he did a lot of his writing to put the system together.

01:18:59.660 It's almost as if he put the playbook together on how to grow the church.

01:19:02.940 But by the way, what were some of the bigger names in the 70s that were part of it?

01:19:06.040 Was there any celebrities in the 70s?

01:19:07.620 Sure.

01:19:07.940 You got like Stanley Clark, who was a famous jazz musician.

01:19:11.180 Right.

01:19:11.420 Chick Corea.

01:19:13.880 There was a guy.

01:19:15.020 When I went to a Scientology school in Los Angeles, there was this guy, Brody.

01:19:18.740 He was like a football player.

01:19:20.340 John Brody, I think was his name.

01:19:22.740 John Travolta was a big 70s, 80s.

01:19:25.960 Oh, so John Travolta goes back to the 70s, 80s.

01:19:28.180 Oh, yeah.

01:19:28.780 Okay.

01:19:29.340 Got it.

01:19:30.120 Got it.

01:19:30.480 So the Ted Koppel interview, there was some controversy within the Scientology church

01:19:36.860 because apparently when you go to a certain level, that's when the name Xenu comes up.

01:19:42.220 Yeah.

01:19:42.500 And OT3, I think, is where they first talk about Xenu, who's this intergalactic overlord.

01:19:48.320 Right.

01:19:48.960 And you learn about these little aliens that are attached to you.

01:19:53.520 You have thousands and thousands of these little aliens attached to you.

01:19:56.620 I have aliens attached to me.

01:19:57.920 Everybody does, especially you.

01:20:02.120 Anyway.

01:20:03.060 I have Middle Eastern aliens, Mario.

01:20:05.200 Are you from Iran?

01:20:06.660 From Iranian.

01:20:07.340 Iranian aliens attached to you.

01:20:10.200 And you have to do these OT levels.

01:20:13.680 And that's where you basically kick them out.

01:20:17.380 You evict them one by one.

01:20:19.140 And it takes forever because there's so many of them.

01:20:21.820 And it could take you 10 years to evict all these guys.

01:20:24.760 Well, Xenu is the guy who made all those aliens.

01:20:29.880 He took thetans, or beings, from other planets, and he dumped them in some volcanoes on Earth.

01:20:36.840 And that's how he created all these aliens that attach to bodies.

01:20:40.100 Okay.

01:20:40.900 When they did the Ted Koppel interview, they showed that whole story of Xenu.

01:20:48.600 Because this is written.

01:20:49.620 There's L. Ron Hubbard lectures you can listen to on the internet where he tells the entire story.

01:20:54.380 It's not made up.

01:20:55.440 This is what they believe.

01:20:56.520 There was a South Park episode that detailed this entire, what Scientologists believe.

01:21:02.800 And they told the whole Xenu story on that episode.

01:21:05.240 Are you ready to hear the truth?

01:21:07.820 I guess.

01:21:08.980 The genius of South Park.

01:21:10.380 Right?

01:21:10.680 And I watched the episode when I first left.

01:21:13.820 Okay.

01:21:14.020 So when you're in Scientology, they believe that if you hear about this story.

01:21:19.220 Of Xenu.

01:21:19.820 Of Xenu.

01:21:20.820 Before you get to that level, then you will die of pneumonia.

01:21:25.380 Because that's the way that trap has been built.

01:21:28.960 Is that if you gain this information before you're ready to receive it, then you will basically self-destruct.

01:21:36.320 Okay.

01:21:36.640 So in Scientology, it is a suppressive act.

01:21:40.820 So if you've done OT3, you're not allowed to tell anyone about Xenu.

01:21:46.160 Even if somebody's already done OT3, you still can't even tell them about Xenu.

01:21:50.440 You can't tell anybody about Xenu, period.

01:21:53.360 And because of this thing, you're going to kill them.

01:21:56.320 So in the Ted Koppel interview on Nightline, they told the whole Xenu story.

01:22:02.100 He did or they did?

01:22:03.460 Ted did.

01:22:04.000 No.

01:22:04.260 They did a whole piece on it.

01:22:05.380 Like, they had had a prepared piece.

01:22:07.020 Okay, got it.

01:22:07.760 And so they didn't tell Dave they were going to do it either.

01:22:10.640 They totally, totally surprised.

01:22:13.180 It was like, hello, gotcha.

01:22:15.100 What about this?

01:22:15.780 And then Dave, they say, what about that?

01:22:19.100 And then Dave says some spin like, oh, that's some random lecture that L. Ron Hubbard gets.

01:22:26.380 No, that's like, that's like the big, big, that's like an origin story in Scientology.

01:22:32.160 Like, this is a big belief precept of Scientology is this thing about the aliens.

01:22:39.640 And you learn as you go.

01:22:41.000 There's all sorts of other things.

01:22:42.380 You learn, basically, when I was talking about the bait and switch earlier, this is another one of these bait and switches.

01:22:48.160 Because on OT3, you find out about all these aliens.

01:22:51.100 And then on OT7, you have to get rid of all the aliens.

01:22:54.020 And then on OT8, you find out you created the aliens.

01:23:00.140 They were never there.

01:23:01.460 You created them.

01:23:02.980 I created the aliens.

01:23:03.960 You created the aliens.

01:23:05.700 Is this like a...

01:23:06.640 Because you're a god.

01:23:07.780 That's where you learn.

01:23:08.600 On OT8, you're a god.

01:23:10.160 And you created the aliens as a game or as a task for yourself to be able to get rid of them.

01:23:16.620 And anything that you did that was aberrated came from the aliens.

01:23:20.520 So when you cheated on your wife, that was one of the aliens that made you cheat on your wife.

01:23:24.660 I mean, this would make half the men in the world happy.

01:23:26.820 Right.

01:23:27.020 You could blame an alien.

01:23:27.780 I've got aliens.

01:23:28.780 That's why I'm a gambling program.

01:23:30.540 I don't have demons.

01:23:30.880 I have aliens.

01:23:31.480 The aliens want to go to Vegas.

01:23:32.740 I want to stay here with you, honey.

01:23:34.360 I love you.

01:23:36.040 Wow.

01:23:36.540 So Zeno was a big...

01:23:37.860 Because I read a lot about that interview with Ted Koppel created a lot of controversy

01:23:43.360 that from there on, it was kind of like, you know, let's not even start addressing it

01:23:46.240 because it's better off we no longer do interview.

01:23:48.920 That's why I asked you earlier, why hasn't he been on TV since then?

01:23:52.260 Well, now he's...

01:23:54.780 At the property, when I left in 2005, he was paranoid that he thought people there were trying to poison him.

01:24:03.160 Poison him.

01:24:03.820 Yeah.

01:24:04.640 So let me take it on a different side.

01:24:08.520 So you think the church is going to collapse once David is no longer involved.

01:24:13.160 That's what you think is going to happen.

01:24:14.480 Unless enough people speak out.

01:24:16.520 Like, I'm one person.

01:24:18.260 There's hundreds, maybe even thousands of people that have similar stories to mine.

01:24:22.680 If those people would speak out as well, then it would probably speed it up.

01:24:27.540 And it might even collapse before David Miscavige gets hit by a bus or whatever happens to him.

01:24:33.860 You think one of the reasons why some people have such a strong emotional connection to the Scientology church

01:24:39.340 is because, like I can tell you from personal experience with friends,

01:24:43.120 I had an office of mine, Granada Hills, right?

01:24:46.600 We were in Granada Hills.

01:24:47.880 And we probably work with 50, 100 Scientologists in our office.

01:24:53.120 And one thing I can tell you, my experiences with them, if I tell you it's 90% positive,

01:25:01.060 it's probably an understatement.

01:25:03.160 I had a great experience working with these guys.

01:25:05.640 And those guys are not exposed to any of the things that I've talked to you about.

01:25:08.580 I wouldn't know.

01:25:09.120 I mean, I could tell you, they worked.

01:25:10.720 They were workers.

01:25:11.740 Yeah.

01:25:12.040 They'd be out there running, gunning, running, appointment.

01:25:13.860 They didn't have a problem driving six hours to an appointment, an Audi.

01:25:16.680 Nothing.

01:25:17.140 They were workers.

01:25:18.160 Hardcore workers.

01:25:19.280 And I remember how many friends that I, you know,

01:25:22.200 I had a couple of friends that were going through trying to overcome heroin and ecstasy and addiction to Vicodin.

01:25:29.380 Vicodin was the hardest one out of all of them, even harder than heroin.

01:25:31.900 And, hey, why don't you try Scientology's methods called Narconin or something like that.

01:25:38.960 Narconon.

01:25:39.160 Narconon, yeah.

01:25:40.220 And send them there because the system that L. Ron Hubbard came out himself with,

01:25:45.040 from his own research that he did, this helps people, you know, overcome a drug addiction.

01:25:50.280 And the amount of testimonies I heard, it's a lot of positive testimonies.

01:25:54.760 You know, that I, I mean, obviously there's three people that died that they went through because I've read that as well.

01:25:59.500 I'm going to give both.

01:26:00.240 So, but, you know.

01:26:02.120 If a hundred people get off drugs and three end up dying, the FDA wouldn't approve that drug.

01:26:08.500 I don't think.

01:26:09.480 No, it wouldn't.

01:26:10.380 It wouldn't.

01:26:10.840 But did you yourself, while you were there or even after you left,

01:26:15.060 did you also see yourself positive experiences on the way they handled people that got off drugs

01:26:22.120 and then they stayed off of drugs?

01:26:23.740 Because when somebody's on drugs, it's, I'm with Robert Shapiro.

01:26:28.380 Robert Shapiro was the dream team, O.J. Simpson's attorney.

01:26:31.860 Yep.

01:26:32.300 And he lost his son, Brent Shapiro.

01:26:33.800 He started a foundation called Brent Shapiro.

01:26:35.380 And he said there's this notion that people who are on drugs, they're in control.

01:26:38.960 He says they will lie to you and say anything to you to convince you that they're okay.

01:26:43.120 And they're not because psychologically they're gone.

01:26:45.400 So, here's a person that's hostage with the drugs and they don't know how to stop their addiction.

01:26:51.440 And I find a church called Scientology that helps me get off of something that I've had no control over.

01:26:56.080 No organization has been able to fix this.

01:26:57.820 No government organization.

01:26:59.500 Nothing's been able to fix it.

01:27:00.560 I'm off of it.

01:27:01.540 I'm going to give my life to this.

01:27:03.320 Do you think there's a part of it where my loyalty is to it because you were able to help me get off drugs?

01:27:08.440 Do you think there's some of that going on?

01:27:09.560 Well, I'd say that there are probably some people out there, like I know Kirstie Alley, for instance, was a drug addict.

01:27:15.360 And she got off drugs through the Narconon program.

01:27:18.580 That's how she's such a dedicated Scientologist, I think.

01:27:22.500 I happen to know, because before I worked at the international headquarters, I worked at the parent organization that was over Narconon.

01:27:29.460 And I happen to know 100% that the entire Narconon drug rehabilitation program is just Scientology courses.

01:27:37.560 There's nothing, there was nothing developed for Narconon.

01:27:43.080 Meaning?

01:27:43.760 Meaning there's a thing in Scientology called the purification rundown.

01:27:47.660 Before you're allowed to do anything in Scientology, whether you've done drugs, whether you're an addict, whether you got some Novocaine from the dentist, doesn't matter.

01:27:56.580 Every single person that goes into Scientology, the first thing they have to do is called the purification rundown.

01:28:01.780 And it's, you sit in a sauna five hours a day, and you take a whole bunch of vitamins, and you sweat out all the drugs, supposedly.

01:28:08.880 That's how it works.

01:28:09.520 That's what L. Ron Hubbard said.

01:28:12.640 That's exactly what Narconon is.

01:28:14.860 It's that, with all the Scientology taken out of it, they do the exact same thing.

01:28:19.380 It wasn't like we said, oh, let's develop and research a program that gets people off drugs.

01:28:23.920 Was it effective, though?

01:28:24.880 Was it?

01:28:25.220 No.

01:28:25.740 It's totally not effective.

01:28:26.940 So you're saying it's not even effective.

01:28:28.200 No, you can read testimonies from people that worked at Narconon.

01:28:31.760 The people that work at Narconon, a lot of times, they recruit them to work at Narconon.

01:28:37.280 After they do the program, they say, hey, you know what?

01:28:41.060 We got you off drugs.

01:28:42.380 Why don't you stay here and help more people get off drugs?

01:28:45.440 Most people are like, well, that's great, because I'm not going to be able to get a job pretty much anywhere outside of here.

01:28:49.920 And then they start working there, and then they start trading drugs for sex with the students.

01:28:55.780 Students are dying.

01:28:57.180 Students are ODing.

01:28:58.840 When their money runs out, the insurance runs out, they just dump them on the corner, and they say, you're out.

01:29:04.300 There's no more money.

01:29:05.540 Your parents aren't paying.

01:29:06.700 You're done.

01:29:07.400 You're out of here.

01:29:07.960 So for whatever good that Narconon does, the bad, I assure you, far outweighs it.

01:29:15.880 You believe that.

01:29:16.660 Oh, 100%.

01:29:17.660 I know.

01:29:18.900 In Narconon, they say, in Scientology, they say they have a 76% success rate.

01:29:24.320 That's what they say.

01:29:25.040 They claim that 100%.

01:29:26.960 In publications, in their website, in pamphlets, they say we have a 76% success rate.

01:29:33.900 If you go to any drug rehab program in the world, they're going to say, impossible.

01:29:39.060 That is 100% impossible.

01:29:41.140 There's no way that's possible.

01:29:44.040 The best, most effective drug rehabilitation programs usually have like a 20% to 30% success rate.

01:29:51.560 Maximum.

01:29:52.240 Interesting.

01:29:52.760 Like the ones that are scientifically, they've studied the people that have left.

01:29:56.080 This 76% success rate is just like Scientology's enrollment figures or their member figures.

01:30:01.940 If you ask Scientology, how many members do you have?

01:30:05.240 They say 15 million, 17 million, 20 million, 10 million.

01:30:10.880 There was a time, and there's videos on the internet where public relations people that work for Scientology

01:30:16.780 will tell you that over the years, they would say, hey, we have 5 million members.

01:30:22.180 And then they'd do a newspaper article a year later, and someone would say, how many members do you have?

01:30:25.700 And they'd say, what did we say last time?

01:30:27.440 I said, we said 5 million.

01:30:28.260 Okay.

01:30:28.720 We have 6.5 million members.

01:30:30.480 And over the years, they just kept the figure going.

01:30:34.460 I was working at the international headquarters.

01:30:36.860 We were tracking all this stuff.

01:30:38.020 They don't have those people.

01:30:39.100 When you say 20,000 members, you said the number 20,000 to 30,000 members.

01:30:43.620 Is that, how are you measuring the 20,000 to 30,000?

01:30:46.460 How many are paying today?

01:30:47.880 That's right.

01:30:48.280 That's people that are doing Scientology services and that are active in Scientology.

01:30:53.560 Got it.

01:30:53.980 That's the way Scientology counts it.

01:30:55.380 Versus if I once took a class and I attended, that total is about 5 million.

01:31:00.400 That's right.

01:31:01.140 That's still a big number.

01:31:02.040 So 5 million people have taken their courses?

01:31:03.900 Well, or watched a film.

01:31:05.960 Oh, okay.

01:31:06.380 They'll do a thing on Hollywood Boulevard in Los Angeles where they pass out movie tickets.

01:31:11.360 They say, hey, you want to watch a free film?

01:31:13.100 Right down the street from Man Chinese.

01:31:15.140 And you walk in there and you watch a film.

01:31:16.640 You're on that list.

01:31:17.940 You're one of those members.

01:31:19.060 You watch a 30-minute film.

01:31:21.140 You're a member.

01:31:21.720 I'd be curious to know how they measure that number.

01:31:23.120 So last but not least, this last question here to wrap up before we finish off with the book.

01:31:28.720 So what do you do now?

01:31:29.960 So you've been part of the church.

01:31:31.280 You were there.

01:31:31.980 You worked.

01:31:32.540 You did your part.

01:31:33.380 You left.

01:31:34.380 You were telling me earlier you were trying to buy a car.

01:31:36.560 You had zero credit, nothing on your name, nothing going on.

01:31:39.820 And you bought this car from Galpin Ford, which is a place I bought three cars from off of Roscoe.

01:31:45.700 A guy named Jaime Godina sold me the car.

01:31:48.860 Right off the 405s.

01:31:49.720 Right off the 405s.

01:31:50.780 I had a friend I was dating at that time, but I know that Roscoe and Bassett area very well.

01:31:56.120 So going back to it, what do you do now?

01:31:59.000 I mean, I know you run businesses as well.

01:32:00.540 You've done millions of dollars and revenues as well.

01:32:02.600 So tell me about your business life today.

01:32:04.800 When I left in 2005, I had nothing.

01:32:08.140 My wife also as well, no high school diploma.

01:32:12.020 No, we didn't do college.

01:32:13.300 We didn't, nothing.

01:32:15.900 We, I worked in the film industry in Hollywood for a little bit.

01:32:19.420 Yep.

01:32:19.580 I'm doing post-production visual effects stuff.

01:32:22.920 And then in 2007, I created an audio-visual systems integration company.

01:32:28.480 And that company is going strong to this day.

01:32:32.380 And we do, we basically design and install audio-visual systems for museums.

01:32:39.100 So.

01:32:39.300 It's a niche.

01:32:40.000 Yeah.

01:32:40.500 We've worked on.

01:32:41.100 Around the world or is it mainly in the States?

01:32:42.820 We've done a lot of work in the States so far.

01:32:44.980 We have, do have some projects coming up in other countries.

01:32:47.900 But we've done three presidential libraries.

01:32:51.360 We do a lot of music libraries.

01:32:53.200 We do museums all over the United States.

01:32:55.080 And then I also have another company that my wife runs, which is a bookkeeping company.

01:33:01.400 So she has basically staff all over the United States and they do remote bookkeeping.

01:33:08.360 So this was when I was doing a lot of computer systems and we could remote in.

01:33:13.120 I thought, oh, we should have a thing.

01:33:14.720 We could do remote bookkeeping so you don't have to have a bookkeeper.

01:33:16.980 So you do millions per year?

01:33:19.540 It depends on the year.

01:33:20.800 But we, we, my wife and I, we have a competition.

01:33:24.020 You've done well for yourself financially.

01:33:25.640 We have done well.

01:33:26.600 When I left Scientology in the first three months that I was gone, I made more in those

01:33:32.280 first three months than I made in 15 years.

01:33:34.560 And that's when I realized I could make a lot more.

01:33:38.700 Here's a crazy question for you.

01:33:40.020 Crazy question for you.

01:33:41.100 How much of your current work ethic is stemmed from your years with Scientology?

01:33:47.980 Well, I was working 120 hours a week.

01:33:50.380 That's what I'm saying.

01:33:50.940 So I'm built, I'm built for stamina.

01:33:54.380 So do you see why I'm asking that question?

01:33:55.720 Because I lived, I lived in Iran and when I lived in Iran, you know, I would say, you

01:33:59.780 know, oh my gosh, we were bombed.

01:34:01.380 We were this.

01:34:02.060 We, I was so paranoid because any day you could die.

01:34:04.120 And then I went in the military.

01:34:05.440 We're working a hundred hours a week in the military.

01:34:07.520 This is crazy.

01:34:08.140 We're making no money.

01:34:08.840 But then that's made me a couple hundred million dollars, right?

01:34:11.940 So, but you also, you, right now, your life is a paradise.

01:34:16.820 Oh, heaven on earth.

01:34:17.980 That's right.

01:34:18.320 Every day.

01:34:18.860 That's how mine is.

01:34:19.700 Right.

01:34:20.000 I, if I work, like when I first left at six o'clock in the afternoon, I was like, what

01:34:27.680 am I going to do?

01:34:28.960 I got, I'm going to, I'm, I'm ready to go until midnight.

01:34:32.000 I was working till one or a midnight or 1 a.m.

01:34:34.780 And you learned that at Scientology's craziness when they worked.

01:34:37.200 I didn't learn it.

01:34:38.100 I was, I was like a, I was a, I was a slave.

01:34:41.480 I get it.

01:34:42.080 I fully get that.

01:34:43.000 So I'm programmed to work.

01:34:44.900 So, and also there's a policy that they have there, which is if you have a problem, solve

01:34:51.180 it.

01:34:52.060 Like you can't say to your senior, I have a problem.

01:34:55.240 What other principles you learned that help you in your career?

01:34:58.440 Because I'm telling you the stuff that they would tell me, the assist, the audit, the

01:35:02.360 this, the that.

01:35:03.200 That's all bullshit.

01:35:04.620 And I have, and I, from being there, I discount any of the technology, I discount.

01:35:10.000 Okay.

01:35:10.420 I don't think I learned anything from them.

01:35:14.480 I think the lessons I learned from being there are what I learned.

01:35:19.200 Like I've put up with so much of David Miscavige's bullshit that when I was working and I didn't

01:35:24.840 have my own company, there wasn't a boss that I worked for that I was like, you know, come

01:35:29.720 on.

01:35:30.680 This is the, like, like my boss came to me when I first left.

01:35:34.320 My boss said, hey, would you mind staying till eight tonight?

01:35:37.860 And I'm thinking to myself, you know, it's like five o'clock.

01:35:40.820 I'm thinking, like, I could stay till eight.

01:35:42.540 Did you say he's going to punch me in the face at all?

01:35:44.280 No.

01:35:44.400 What are you thinking?

01:35:44.920 But that's the thing.

01:35:46.120 It's like, if you ask a regular person, can you stay till eight, that's a big ask.

01:35:51.360 Yeah.

01:35:51.620 We get it here all the time.

01:35:52.660 Believe me.

01:35:53.200 It's crisis.

01:35:53.960 But even one time they said, in order to make a deadline, we had to get a show edited

01:35:57.780 and to the channel.

01:35:59.340 And it had to air.

01:36:00.560 And we had to get all these effects cut into the show.

01:36:04.000 And it was, there's no way to get it done unless we pulled an all-nighter.

01:36:06.960 And I was the only one who could get all the stuff together and get it.

01:36:11.280 And I pulled an all-nighter.

01:36:12.780 And I was like, it was like, dude, you were the most awesome guy ever in the world because

01:36:18.400 you stayed all night.

01:36:19.420 And I'm like, dude, I was pulling an all-nighter maybe once or twice a week for the last 15 years.

01:36:24.020 Crazy question.

01:36:24.900 You think if you didn't have that experience there, you'd be making the kind of money

01:36:27.460 you're making today?

01:36:29.080 I don't think so.

01:36:30.240 Okay.

01:36:30.760 So, interesting.

01:36:31.920 By the way, I appreciate the answer.

01:36:33.240 Well, yeah, but because also the obstacles that we had when I was there was, and for

01:36:39.780 a lot of the time that I worked there, I dabbled in audio-visual systems, even though

01:36:44.240 it wasn't my assigned post.

01:36:45.600 You were making videos, that's right.

01:36:46.740 I was designing or I was saying, oh, we should use this, we should use that.

01:36:50.860 And then right before I left, that was my actual official post.

01:36:54.220 Interesting.

01:36:54.580 But so, I had what now I spend maybe a year or two planning and designing and going through

01:37:01.340 with the architects and all, I didn't do that in a week.

01:37:03.920 And it was always messed up because we should have been doing it a year or two when they

01:37:10.280 were planning the building, not a week before we're supposed to install it.

01:37:13.460 That's right.

01:37:14.100 So, everything was always, oh, there's no power here, oh, there's no conduit, all these

01:37:18.520 silly things that would never have happened.

01:37:20.460 And so, there's a rule where, I think it's called the 10,000 hour rule, I got about 90,000

01:37:26.420 hours, okay?

01:37:28.000 So, I'm good.

01:37:30.580 I know every wrong way, from being in Scientology, I know every wrong way to do everything.

01:37:36.900 Business, systems, everything.

01:37:39.900 I know the wrong way to do it.

01:37:40.680 It's made you millions.

01:37:42.120 Believe me, I am not who I am if I didn't go through hell and back with my family and

01:37:46.340 if I didn't go through hell and back living in Iran, living in a refugee camp.

01:37:49.400 There's no way in the world I am who I am today.

01:37:51.980 No way.

01:37:52.600 Some of the stories I say, people don't even believe the stuff that we went through.

01:37:55.920 And so, I asked that question because I want to know how much of it reflected off your success

01:37:59.540 today and you were transparent enough to say, yes, it did.

01:38:01.960 I wouldn't be the person I am today.

01:38:03.560 Here's a question for you.

01:38:05.400 Say David's watching this right now.

01:38:07.020 Yeah.

01:38:07.580 Okay?

01:38:08.360 He's somewhere in Clearwater.

01:38:10.680 Yeah.

01:38:10.780 No one, he's got his iPhone, he's in the bathroom, he's in his office, he's in his bed,

01:38:15.400 he's by himself, in his car, somewhere parked, no one knows he's watching this video.

01:38:19.860 He's going to clear his history by the time he's done watching this.

01:38:21.860 Yeah.

01:38:22.280 But he's watching this right now.

01:38:23.540 Okay?

01:38:24.560 And he's seen the show Scientology, the Aftermath, he's seen some of this.

01:38:31.080 He's going to hear about it 24-7 because he's the name, he's the face, right?

01:38:34.220 Oh, no.

01:38:34.460 They've created thousands and thousands of websites about us.

01:38:37.120 Sure, but here's the question.

01:38:39.080 Say he has a moment and he says, okay, if there was anything Scientology Church could

01:38:46.700 do to adjust and to positively continue its course of what they want to do, is there anything

01:38:53.980 the church could do?

01:38:55.280 And I know you have a lot of, you know, personal experience that's frustrated you.

01:39:00.060 Is there anything they could do to make the church better from the internal side?

01:39:05.320 On the external side, based on what you're saying, a lot of them haven't experienced,

01:39:07.960 a lot of members haven't seen it.

01:39:09.380 They just kind of go to their courses.

01:39:10.560 This course helped me.

01:39:11.380 I found another issue I've overcome.

01:39:13.060 I'm getting better.

01:39:14.000 I feel better.

01:39:14.640 I can't believe who I'm becoming.

01:39:15.640 One day I'm going to be a great leader.

01:39:16.680 I can create my own life, my own, you know, God, all this other stuff.

01:39:19.560 I'm going to be an OTA.

01:39:20.320 Great.

01:39:20.840 Is there anything David, who leads the entire church, could do to make Scientology an organization

01:39:27.880 that's going to gain credibility and continue growing?

01:39:30.560 Anything.

01:39:31.820 End the abuse and end the disconnection policy.

01:39:34.520 What's the disconnection policy?

01:39:36.520 It's where they're separating and destroying families.

01:39:39.180 It's their excommunication policy.

01:39:42.900 So you're saying if they did those two things, Scientology would be a good organization.

01:39:47.500 Maybe they're not a religion, but they'd be a good organization that they could do good

01:39:50.460 for society.

01:39:51.680 Well, no.

01:39:52.120 I think if they ended those two policies, then it wouldn't be, they wouldn't be hurting

01:39:57.300 people as much, I think, if they ended those two policies.

01:40:01.460 And I also think that it would self-destruct if they ended those two policies.

01:40:04.840 And so whatever you tell them, they're not going to be able to do it because if they

01:40:08.700 do it, it's going to self-destruct.

01:40:09.700 If they didn't disconnect people, then people would say what happened to them, and then

01:40:13.200 those people would get out of Scientology, and then it would be a fast, quick demise.

01:40:17.460 But right now, they're milking it for every second they can get and trying to keep the

01:40:23.120 people that are in there and ordering interrogations and separating mothers and sons and daughters.

01:40:29.360 And I mean, when you hear these people, you watch this after, you watch Scientology, the

01:40:32.800 aftermath on A&E, and these stories, if you can watch an episode and not cry, then you

01:40:39.060 get problems.

01:40:39.760 If those things change, is the content valuable enough where it's life changing?

01:40:44.160 If those things?

01:40:45.380 If, let's just say, those two things change, is the content valuable enough where it can

01:40:49.800 last?

01:40:50.700 No.

01:40:51.440 It's, I'm telling you, L. Ron Hubbard repurposed other stuff.

01:40:54.920 But a lot of people say Tony Robbins did that.

01:40:56.540 A lot of people say a lot of authors today did that.

01:40:58.140 A lot of people say, and they've given their own, you know, because, you know, everything's

01:41:02.340 written after the Bible.

01:41:04.100 If you take the Bible, a lot of the principles come from Proverbs.

01:41:06.640 Well, prior to that, you know, if you go back and look at Sun Tzu and what he wrote, if

01:41:10.460 you go back and study Confucius, you know, if you go, so a lot of, that's been said a lot

01:41:15.280 of times with every single religion and book and all that.

01:41:17.900 You know, you wrote a book, your book copied this other book, and this financial book copied

01:41:21.800 this.

01:41:22.220 Well, in Scientology, you can't do Scientology partway.

01:41:25.900 You're either in it or you're not.

01:41:29.040 And the first policy letter that you read in Scientology is called Keeping Scientology

01:41:32.720 Working.

01:41:33.700 And in that policy, L. Ron Hubbard says, we'd rather have you dead than incapable.

01:41:39.260 So if you do the relationship course, it leads to Xenu.

01:41:43.260 If you do the communications course, it leads to Xenu.

01:41:46.360 If you do the how to make work easier course, it leads to Xenu.

01:41:50.640 They're all those things are all going to lead to you spending hundreds of thousands of

01:41:54.400 dollars to rid yourself of space aliens.

01:41:56.380 You are full for the world is a better place without Scientology.

01:41:59.560 Absolutely.

01:42:00.120 Okay.

01:42:00.460 So you're dead set on that.

01:42:01.460 Okay.

01:42:01.680 Very cool.

01:42:02.440 Okay.

01:42:02.640 So to wrap it up, give us a, you know, a quick plug for the book.

01:42:07.600 I know you give a couple of them and obviously more of these stories are going to be probably

01:42:11.220 in there.

01:42:11.740 So what am I going to pick up if I read the book?

01:42:13.680 You're going to find out all there is to know about the international headquarters,

01:42:18.220 how the day-to-day workings are, the schedule, what we did, where we ate.

01:42:23.040 You're going to find a whole bunch of crazy stories about people that tried to escape and

01:42:27.880 then were captured about how I escaped with the help of the police.

01:42:31.820 You're going to find out all kinds of craziness about David Miscavige.

01:42:35.060 If you know people that are in Scientology, they might even be in the book too.

01:42:38.500 Because we shot movies with people, we did videos, films, audio recordings, all kinds

01:42:46.600 of craziness that happened at the International Headquarters.

01:42:48.760 The place where I worked is called Golden Arrow Productions and it was the propaganda arm

01:42:53.220 of Scientology.

01:42:54.600 So anything that was made to make Scientology look good, that's where we made it.

01:43:00.080 That's where we did it.

01:43:01.780 And the book's called Blown for Good, Behind the Iron Curtain of Scientology.

01:43:05.320 You can get it on Amazon.

01:43:06.480 You can go to blownforgood.com.

01:43:08.860 You can order it direct from there.

01:43:09.900 I'll even sign a copy for you.

01:43:11.420 I thought it was interesting how you self-published it and ended up winning all these awards even

01:43:14.800 though it was a self-pub.

01:43:15.900 Well, that's the...

01:43:16.460 Very interesting on the level of interest it ended up having.

01:43:20.400 The reason I did that is because a girl that wrote a book told me that Scientology threatened

01:43:25.280 to sue the publisher.

01:43:27.300 And she actually was at the imp base as well.

01:43:30.340 And she wrote a book and they threatened to sue the publisher and the publisher had already

01:43:33.620 paid her for the book and they never published it.

01:43:35.620 Wow.

01:43:35.900 So, I realized in order to get the book published, I had to start a publishing company.

01:43:41.100 Mark, thanks for coming up, buddy.

01:43:42.680 Thank you for having me.

01:43:43.780 Thanks, everybody, for listening.

01:43:45.020 And by the way, if you haven't already subscribed to Valuetainment on iTunes, please do so.

01:43:49.640 Give us a five-star.

01:43:51.040 Write a review if you haven't already.

01:43:52.540 And if you have any questions for me that you may have, you can always find me on Snapchat,

01:43:56.620 Instagram, Facebook, or YouTube.

01:43:58.580 Just search my name, Patrick David.

01:44:00.120 And I actually do respond back when you snap me or send me a message on Instagram.

01:44:05.460 With that being said, have a great day today.

01:44:07.220 Take care, everybody.

01:44:07.780 Bye-bye.

01:44:08.240 Bye-bye.

01:44:13.240 Bye-bye.

01:44:14.840 Bye-bye.

01:44:15.400 Bye-bye.

01:44:16.420 Bye-bye.

01:44:16.560 Bye-bye.

01:44:17.940 Bye-bye.

01:44:18.900 Bye-bye.

01:44:20.600 Bye-bye.

01:44:30.160 Bye-bye.

01:44:30.600 Bye-bye.

01:44:31.260 Bye-bye.

01:44:33.180 Bye-bye.

01:44:33.980 Bye-bye.

01:44:34.800 Bye-bye.

Valuetainment - June 25, 2019

Episode 327： What is Scientology - A Religion or Business？

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