Valuetainment - July 16, 2019


Episode 342： Michael Franzese - Untold Stories of the Mafia


Episode Stats


Length

31 minutes

Words per minute

228.13214

Word count

7,127

Sentence count

652

Harmful content

Misogyny

4

sentences flagged

Hate speech

8

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, Michael Francisi talks about the power plays that were pulled on him growing up in the streets of New York City. He talks about how he dealt with them and how they shaped him into the man he is today.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.800 30 seconds. One time for the underdog. Ignition sequence start.
00:00:07.020 Let me see you put them up. Reach the sky, touch the stars up above.
00:00:11.140 Cause it's one time for the underdog. One time for the underdog.
00:00:17.260 I am Patrick Mede David, your host of Alletainment.
00:00:19.440 Today we're going to have another Michael Francisi interview,
00:00:22.020 except this one's going to be untold stories of the mafia that he hasn't shared in the past before.
00:00:26.180 It's good to see you again, Michael.
00:00:27.260 Good crowd, huh?
00:00:28.060 Yes.
00:00:28.380 Good crowd. They've been looking forward to spending some time with you.
00:00:33.020 You know, we're talking in the back. I'm like, Michael, what do we talk about that we haven't already talked about?
00:00:38.080 How many of you guys have seen the interview, by the way? Anybody seen the interview?
00:00:41.040 So that's the challenge.
00:00:42.020 A few people.
00:00:42.600 Yeah, a few people have seen the interview.
00:00:44.440 So why don't we take it in a complete different direction today, you and I.
00:00:49.980 One, power plays that maybe were, you know, pulled on you.
00:00:55.840 And probably the stories I wouldn't mind if we can get into is maybe early on when you're coming up,
00:01:02.480 somebody that was able to do a power play on you, that you were kind of sitting there saying,
00:01:07.100 wow, I can't believe that guy actually pulled it off on me.
00:01:09.320 That helped you learn to become better yourself on the street.
00:01:11.800 And then later on, we can talk about reading people in rooms, in negotiation rooms.
00:01:18.020 Many of the guys here sit with investors, competitors, buyers, sellers, vendors, partners.
00:01:23.620 How do you read the room?
00:01:24.920 Who's really the decision maker?
00:01:26.260 Who's the EF hut and who's not?
00:01:28.200 But having said that, let's go back to power plays.
00:01:30.100 So coming up in the streets of New York, I mean, these are the times of the 80s.
00:01:34.460 These are tough times.
00:01:36.040 These are competitive times.
00:01:38.060 These are times that's about territory.
00:01:39.600 You've got to be able to stand up.
00:01:40.800 And in our world, worst thing that can happen to you is go out of business.
00:01:44.660 In your world, worst thing that can happen to you is you're out of life.
00:01:48.280 It's a completely different ball game, right?
00:01:49.680 You could get killed.
00:01:51.020 So what were some stories or examples you had of power plays played against you and power plays that you played against somebody else that was in a more stronger position than you were?
00:02:01.960 You know, early on, I got a great education.
00:02:04.300 You know, that could be a very treacherous life.
00:02:06.480 Obviously, people, you know that.
00:02:08.180 And when I was a young recruit, recruit meaning I had just been proposed into the life and I now had to prove myself to get my stripes.
00:02:17.400 So you had to do anything and everything you were told to do.
00:02:19.820 And at the time, I was just feeling my way.
00:02:22.020 I had gotten in trouble.
00:02:23.320 I had a few indictments.
00:02:24.440 So I had really gone through it.
00:02:26.420 And I had a couple of businesses going.
00:02:27.980 I had a market, you know, like a market where you have all different stations.
00:02:32.000 You got meat, you got fish, you got the whole thing.
00:02:34.600 So we had a meat division there.
00:02:37.400 And Paul Castellano, who was the boss of the Gambino family at the time, he had a lot of people involved in the chicken business.
00:02:43.860 He's a wholesale chicken guy.
00:02:45.620 So one of his relatives was selling me chickens.
00:02:48.440 We had to buy from him because he was the boss.
00:02:50.520 Legit business.
00:02:51.580 It was legit, yeah.
00:02:52.500 Got it.
00:02:52.760 I think so.
00:02:54.420 So anyhow, I was buying all my chickens from him.
00:02:58.080 It's Memorial Day weekend.
00:02:59.300 The anniversary is actually coming up.
00:03:01.480 And I buy a load of chickens for him.
00:03:03.400 And I'm selling them to people.
00:03:04.740 We're wholesaling them and giving them away.
00:03:05.920 Memorial Day, we have a beautiful weekend.
00:03:07.880 So we sell to this one woman. 0.99
00:03:09.300 And on Tuesday, she comes back.
00:03:11.840 And she said, you sold me bad chickens. 0.95
00:03:14.520 I said, what do you mean?
00:03:15.820 Well, they were all filled with maggots.
00:03:17.720 Now, they were only in my freezer for a day, right?
00:03:20.280 So it couldn't have been us.
00:03:21.920 So I said, I'll take them back.
00:03:23.300 I gave her back the money the whole bit.
00:03:24.820 So I call up Paulie's guy.
00:03:26.880 And I said, listen, I'm not going to pay you for these chickens because there was something wrong with them.
00:03:30.360 There was maggots.
00:03:31.360 He said, no, you're going to pay me for the chickens.
00:03:33.560 I said, no, I'm not going to pay you.
00:03:35.220 We go back and forth.
00:03:36.380 He starts cussing me out.
00:03:37.560 I start cussing him out and so on and so forth.
00:03:39.780 He says, you know who I am.
00:03:40.940 I said, I don't care who you are.
00:03:42.500 You know, I'm a young, brash guy at that time.
00:03:44.820 And I hang up the phone on him.
00:03:46.840 Next thing you know, I get a call from my boss at the time.
00:03:50.200 He was at Cap Regime.
00:03:51.540 And he says, get downtown right away.
00:03:54.200 I got to see you.
00:03:54.880 So I jump in my car.
00:03:56.400 I go downtown.
00:03:57.120 I go to downtown Brooklyn.
00:03:59.220 I said, what's the problem?
00:04:00.760 Did you have an argument with somebody on the phone?
00:04:03.000 I said, yeah.
00:04:03.720 I said, over these chickens.
00:04:04.780 And I explained the story to him.
00:04:06.580 He said, do you realize who that guy was?
00:04:08.660 And I said, I know.
00:04:09.600 But he still sold me bad chickens.
00:04:11.080 Do I have to pay, you know?
00:04:12.540 So he said, you're in a lot of trouble.
00:04:15.000 That's Paul Castellano, his nephew.
00:04:17.220 He got back to Paulie.
00:04:18.380 He's the boss of the Gambino family. 0.95
00:04:20.360 You got a lot of trouble here.
00:04:21.520 You're not supposed to get out of control with a guy like that.
00:04:24.240 You always keep your temper.
00:04:26.340 I said, well, what are we going to do?
00:04:27.480 He said, we're going to have a sit down with him.
00:04:29.380 He says, but here's the deal.
00:04:30.680 When we get to that table, you don't open your mouth.
00:04:33.780 I don't care what Paulie says.
00:04:35.240 I don't care what he accuses you of.
00:04:37.080 I don't care what names he calls you.
00:04:38.800 You don't open your mouth.
00:04:39.960 And you don't answer unless we answer for you or we tell you to answer.
00:04:43.820 That's the rules.
00:04:44.800 I said, hey, you got it.
00:04:45.880 Whatever I got to do, I saved my life.
00:04:47.700 I was 23.
00:04:49.540 23.
00:04:50.500 23 years old.
00:04:51.400 So we get to the meeting, and I'm getting abused, Pat.
00:04:55.320 He's calling me all sorts of names.
00:04:57.280 You know who I am.
00:04:58.140 Who do you think you are?
00:04:59.180 I know who your father is, but that doesn't give you a right to talk to my nephew like that.
00:05:03.220 On and on and on and on and on.
00:05:04.680 And I'm not answering.
00:05:05.540 They're answering for me, right?
00:05:07.640 So the bottom line is, he says, do you want to buy chickens for me anymore?
00:05:12.220 And I looked at my guy.
00:05:13.260 I said, can I answer?
00:05:14.300 He said, answer.
00:05:15.220 I said, no, I don't want to buy chickens from you.
00:05:17.220 I mean, you would have thought this was like the biggest deal in the world, right?
00:05:20.960 A couple of pounds of chickens.
00:05:22.200 It was always over that.
00:05:23.200 But, you know, in that world, everything is very technical.
00:05:26.740 They make a mountain out of a molehill.
00:05:29.080 And, you know, the thing, Patrick, at that meeting, what happened at these sit-downs,
00:05:33.720 the old timers were very technical.
00:05:35.580 For instance, rules of a sit-down.
00:05:38.180 Let's make you and I are made guys.
00:05:41.220 We're having an argument.
00:05:42.880 You're lying through your teeth.
00:05:44.720 Lying, every other word is a lie.
00:05:46.680 If I call you a liar, I lose the argument automatically.
00:05:50.440 If I get upset with you and lose my temper, I lose the argument automatically.
00:05:55.440 You've got to know how to keep your mouth shut.
00:05:57.680 You've got to be able to outsmart that person, right?
00:06:00.480 And don't let them make you fall into a trap.
00:06:02.380 Because a lot of times, if an old timer was wrong, he's trying to get you into a trap.
00:06:06.360 So on technicalities, you lose.
00:06:08.620 So I'm starting to figure this out here.
00:06:10.540 So I said, look, I don't want to buy chickens from you anymore.
00:06:12.940 I said, but I'm going to do whatever my boss tells me to do.
00:06:15.580 If he tells me to buy them, I'm going to buy them.
00:06:17.080 I said, I'm a good soldier in that regard.
00:06:19.000 But back and forth, back and forth, I took all the abuse.
00:06:22.960 And at the end of the day, I didn't have to pay him for the chickens, but I had to continue buying chickens from him.
00:06:28.100 That was the compromise, right?
00:06:29.920 So now I get in the car, and they turn around, and he starts yelling at me for a minute.
00:06:37.040 And then all of a sudden, everything is silent.
00:06:38.780 There's the boss and my cop regime, and they crack up laughing.
00:06:41.960 Like, this was the biggest, funniest thing.
00:06:43.960 He said, I've never seen Paulie get so mad over chickens.
00:06:47.560 He said, you happen to do that, blah, blah, blah.
00:06:49.440 And we all had a good time over it.
00:06:51.680 But what I learned at that point, I learned just about these technicalities and how you've got to keep your head in a meeting like that.
00:06:59.760 You've got to learn to outsmart people.
00:07:01.320 You've got to be able to read the room.
00:07:03.320 You know, I learned that whenever I went into a meeting like this, I tried to learn the personality, the character of the person I was up against.
00:07:12.020 John Gotti, for instance.
00:07:13.640 You can never let John Gotti think that you won an argument.
00:07:17.420 His ego wouldn't allow it.
00:07:19.220 So you had to figure out a way to outsmart him to make him think he won, but you actually got what you want.
00:07:25.420 And when you can master that art, you'll do pretty good.
00:07:28.780 And, you know, whatever I did in my old life, I was able to apply that to business in life now.
00:07:34.420 So that was my first.
00:07:35.580 But, you know, they got over me a little bit, but we kind of compromised.
00:07:37.960 But it was a big lesson for me because that was my first major sit down against a major guy.
00:07:44.060 So, Michael, let me ask you this.
00:07:45.340 So in my world, I mean, obviously a lot of times you'll be on a board and you're negotiating with somebody and you know somebody in the room isn't telling the truth.
00:07:55.480 What is the benefit of not calling that out?
00:07:58.340 Well, you know.
00:07:59.240 Or is it a different world than the world you were in?
00:08:01.220 Well, in my world, I mean, you can pay serious consequences.
00:08:04.980 You can't be disrespectful in that life, Patrick.
00:08:07.080 You know, two made guys, two guys that actually took the oath.
00:08:10.180 You can never disrespect one another.
00:08:11.860 Never.
00:08:12.760 I mean, you know.
00:08:13.600 Two made guys could never disrespect one another?
00:08:15.200 Never disrespect, no.
00:08:16.120 So what does disrespect mean?
00:08:18.240 Calling a guy a name, calling him a liar, raising your voice to him.
00:08:22.500 Really?
00:08:23.040 Yeah.
00:08:23.480 A made guy cannot do a made guy.
00:08:25.260 No.
00:08:26.300 That's a major because the life allegedly is built on respect.
00:08:31.140 So you can never disrespect anybody.
00:08:33.040 You can never outwardly do it.
00:08:34.700 Like, I'll be honest with you.
00:08:35.500 I had a meeting with another made guy once.
00:08:38.760 And he's trying to get involved in the gas business.
00:08:41.640 And I'm trying to keep him out.
00:08:42.800 He was a guy from my own family.
00:08:44.520 But he was trying to make a deal with Gotti to bring them into the business.
00:08:47.780 And I didn't want him.
00:08:49.160 So I said, can I talk to you a minute?
00:08:50.820 And this guy's doing life in prison right now.
00:08:52.760 So we go in the other room.
00:08:54.300 We get in the other room.
00:08:55.460 I called him every name in the sun.
00:08:57.600 You're a liar.
00:08:58.440 You're this.
00:08:58.780 You're that.
00:08:59.720 When we walk out, we're shaking hands.
00:09:02.060 You're the best guy in the world.
00:09:03.020 But I wouldn't let anybody see it.
00:09:04.140 Because now if he told anybody I called him that, I'd call him a liar.
00:09:07.520 So they had to believe me.
00:09:09.900 You know what I mean?
00:09:10.560 The same way they had to believe him.
00:09:11.980 So he would never try to challenge that.
00:09:14.180 But no, in that life, you can never be disrespectful to one another.
00:09:17.740 No matter what it is, you had to just bite your tongue and try to outsmart the guy.
00:09:23.820 You know, one thing I learned, Patrick, in a meeting, and you know this.
00:09:26.880 You're the master of this.
00:09:28.660 There's sometimes you could be in a meeting, and you could be the smartest guy in a room,
00:09:32.700 and you don't want to let anybody know that.
00:09:34.220 Let everybody talk.
00:09:35.120 Let everybody think they're smarter than you.
00:09:36.780 But you really know what's going on.
00:09:38.980 There's other times when you're in the room, you could be the least smartest guy in a room.
00:09:43.940 But you've got to make them think that you're smarter than them.
00:09:47.220 And if you can master that technique, then you can get just about anything you want in any negotiation.
00:09:53.380 I found out to be true. 0.99
00:09:54.520 How do you size that up?
00:09:55.560 Like what things do you look for?
00:09:57.700 Is it similar to like a game of poker where you know the guy's tilting, he's frustrated.
00:10:01.840 After he loses, he goes all in.
00:10:04.080 Are you looking for signs to kind of read everybody, or have you done your due diligence before meeting?
00:10:08.940 How does that take place?
00:10:09.820 When I'm able to, I do my due diligence.
00:10:12.180 I want to know the personality, the character of the people I'm in with.
00:10:15.780 But there's times when I'll test somebody.
00:10:18.380 I'll throw out a word or two that I know is false, and I'll see how he responds.
00:10:23.320 If he wants to make me think I know what I'm talking about, I'll say something that has nothing to do with anything,
00:10:27.320 or it's totally absurd, and we'll see how they answer.
00:10:30.680 And sometimes they'll try to, they'll give you an answer, and you can start to, you know,
00:10:34.360 they'll indicate to you what kind of personality they are, and really what you have.
00:10:38.020 The main thing is just let people talk first.
00:10:41.420 Try to get as much out of them as you possibly can, and then you can kind of figure it out.
00:10:45.560 Like with Gotti, a couple of times I had to sit down with him.
00:10:49.240 I knew that he could never believe that I was winning.
00:10:52.300 So in the midst of the argument, I had to figure out what he really wanted
00:10:56.060 and how I can get what I want, letting him think that he got what he wanted.
00:11:00.520 I don't know if I'm explaining that right, but, you know, it's all about how you carry yourself.
00:11:06.120 It really is.
00:11:07.680 But you've got to be prepared.
00:11:09.260 So, again, like I'm thinking about for ourselves versus yours.
00:11:14.020 Did you, did your world, Michael, did everybody pretty much know everybody's character?
00:11:18.300 Like, was it like, hey, Tony, I'm about to go sit with Vinny.
00:11:22.740 Tell me a little bit about Vinny.
00:11:24.100 Or did you already know who Vinny was or who, you know, Johnny was?
00:11:27.600 Because maybe in our world, like if we go into a meeting and we don't know somebody, you know, outside of that,
00:11:32.980 like if you're saying, you know, you're the smartest, you're not the smartest, you know, make yourself the opposite or whatever you are.
00:11:38.580 Was there other methods you used to be able to read people in the room?
00:11:42.060 Was there any other thing you did or to look for?
00:11:44.240 I'll give you another story.
00:11:45.740 I got stories for everything that I learned, you know.
00:11:47.900 I had a big automobile dealership and I had an office that was on the second floor.
00:11:52.160 It was overlooking a car lot.
00:11:53.380 A big Chevrolet dealer.
00:11:54.260 But one of the guys that worked for me was out one day in the lot and I see him having an argument with somebody.
00:12:01.040 Yelling back and forth, argument, argument, argument.
00:12:03.480 I don't pay attention.
00:12:04.340 I go sit at my desk.
00:12:05.320 A few minutes later, he comes upstairs.
00:12:07.440 His name was Jerry.
00:12:08.180 I said, Jerry, what's that argument about?
00:12:10.020 He says, some guy says we sold him a lemon.
00:12:12.120 He wanted his money back and he's going back and forth.
00:12:15.000 You know, he called me a name.
00:12:16.420 I called him a name.
00:12:17.220 He says, and then he mentioned that he had a connected uncle, a brother-in-law.
00:12:21.560 I'm sorry, a connected brother-in-law.
00:12:22.820 I said, well, what do you mean connected?
00:12:24.560 He said, he didn't have anybody connected.
00:12:26.880 He was just mounting off.
00:12:27.920 He said the guy's name was Mario.
00:12:29.780 He says, so I told him go F Mario and F you.
00:12:33.380 And I said, Jerry, I told you don't talk like that.
00:12:35.460 This is New York.
00:12:36.240 You never know who's somebody.
00:12:37.400 He didn't know anybody.
00:12:38.580 I said, well, you know somebody, right?
00:12:40.380 Don't talk like that.
00:12:41.760 No, don't worry about it.
00:12:42.620 He don't know anybody.
00:12:43.840 Okay.
00:12:44.760 Next day, I get a call.
00:12:46.600 Another maid guy, a guy by the name of Tony. 0.97
00:12:48.680 Tony the Gawk, we call him.
00:12:49.880 He's a big guy.
00:12:51.120 And he says, Mike, I got to see you.
00:12:52.960 Please come into Brooklyn.
00:12:54.220 So I just happened to say, Jerry, I don't feel like driving.
00:12:56.600 I got to go into Brooklyn.
00:12:57.580 We're on one guy and drive me.
00:12:58.680 So we go into Brooklyn.
00:13:00.640 We had a meet at a place called, it was on 18th Avenue.
00:13:04.340 It was called the 19th Hole.
00:13:05.760 There was a Chinese restaurant next to it.
00:13:07.420 So we go in the back of the Chinese restaurant.
00:13:09.620 Now, here's what happened.
00:13:10.360 The guy that I had to meet was another maid guy, but I never met him as a maid guy.
00:13:16.300 So if you're a maid member of another family, I can't just go up to you and say, hey, I'm 0.95
00:13:20.540 Michael Francis.
00:13:21.160 I'm made with the Columbo's.
00:13:23.100 You're so-and-so. 0.73
00:13:24.140 You're made with the Bananos. 0.99
00:13:25.100 We had to have somebody that knew us both introduce us.
00:13:29.380 Got it.
00:13:29.560 Right?
00:13:30.220 Michael, Amiga Nostra, so-and-so.
00:13:31.980 And then we can talk as maid guys.
00:13:34.340 So Tony was that guy.
00:13:36.060 So we go in the back of the room, and there's a big old-time guy, big guy there, and he's
00:13:40.160 got two guys with him.
00:13:42.000 And Tony says, Michael, Amiga Nostra, meaning a friend of ours, Mario.
00:13:46.860 I said, Mario, that sounds familiar, right?
00:13:49.100 So I sit down.
00:13:50.220 I'm a young guy.
00:13:50.980 He's an older guy.
00:13:51.700 And I says, Mario, what could I do for you?
00:13:53.240 And he says, you got a guy by the name of Jerry Zimmerman with you?
00:13:56.280 I said, yeah, I know Jerry.
00:13:57.960 He pounds his hand on the table.
00:13:59.640 He says, I want him dead.
00:14:01.980 I said, whoa.
00:14:03.300 I said, now I'm putting it together, Mario, the scene.
00:14:06.660 So now I'm thinking, I said, okay, Mario, do me a favor.
00:14:08.760 I got to go to the restroom. 0.55
00:14:09.820 I had a long drive in from Long Island.
00:14:11.380 Because here's the deal.
00:14:12.700 If they knew Jerry was out there, and they bring Jerry to sit down, before I could prepare
00:14:18.540 him, and he says something wrong, I can't save him.
00:14:21.720 Because I'm a made guy, he is a made guy, and we always have the right of way.
00:14:25.360 So even if it was somebody under me, if he would have said something wrong, he's in trouble.
00:14:29.040 In bad trouble.
00:14:29.900 What, what, what can, can you do anything to change that or no?
00:14:32.840 No.
00:14:33.560 Not if he was, if he said the wrong thing, and he was disrespectful in any way, or he answered
00:14:39.320 wrong, I can't help him.
00:14:41.420 That's just the way it goes.
00:14:43.400 So I said, Mario, I got to go to the restroom.
00:14:45.160 So I go outside, Jerry's by the bar.
00:14:46.860 I said, Jerry, Mario's in there, and he's not happy.
00:14:49.620 I said, get out of here. 0.56
00:14:50.540 Go up the street to the diner, wait for me, right?
00:14:53.080 So he goes up to the street to the diner, and now I'm relaxed.
00:14:55.540 I go back in.
00:14:56.300 I says, Mario, what could I do for you?
00:14:58.320 And he said, you know, this guy was very disrespectful.
00:15:01.120 This is my brother-in-law, and so on and so forth.
00:15:03.440 And he says, you know, he said, F me, and all this kind of stuff.
00:15:07.480 And I said, Mario, I got to understand, I'm going to lie here.
00:15:10.200 I said, Mario, your brother-in-law's not telling you the truth.
00:15:13.020 I said, I was sitting by the window.
00:15:14.360 I heard the whole thing.
00:15:15.260 I said, Jerry never said that.
00:15:16.540 Your brother-in-law's lying.
00:15:18.180 How could you, I know my brother-in-law 20 years.
00:15:20.160 He says, well, I know Jerry 20 years.
00:15:22.020 You know, and we're going back and forth, and he says, well, I want to kill Jerry Zimmerman.
00:15:26.140 I said, well, then I got to kill your brother-in-law.
00:15:27.700 So what are we going to accomplish here?
00:15:29.040 You know, this is how it's.
00:15:29.840 This is literally how this is going.
00:15:31.180 This is literally.
00:15:32.200 I mean, you would have thought it was a nuclear explosion.
00:15:34.620 This was over.
00:15:36.120 He said, well, I'm going to put him in a hospital.
00:15:37.480 I said, well, I got to put your brother-in-law in a hospital.
00:15:39.480 So what are we going to do?
00:15:40.260 We're going to go back and forth with this thing, right?
00:15:42.780 I'm telling you, Patrick, this went on for three hours because he was an old timer.
00:15:47.060 He wouldn't budge.
00:15:48.620 Not budge, an inch, right?
00:15:50.460 Now I'm saying, man, this is going to go all the way up to the boss.
00:15:53.180 I said, we're going to have a whole production here.
00:15:54.740 I said, Mario, tell me what you want.
00:15:57.000 What do you want out of this?
00:15:58.040 I said, no, don't even tell me.
00:15:59.280 I'll tell you what I'm going to do.
00:16:00.440 I'm going to give your brother-in-law a new car.
00:16:02.960 Tell him you won the argument.
00:16:04.260 You won.
00:16:04.640 I'll give him a new car, and I'll take care of Jerry.
00:16:07.500 Well, I want Jerry in a hospital.
00:16:08.480 I said, stop the hospital.
00:16:09.540 I'll take care of Jerry.
00:16:10.600 He's my guy.
00:16:11.320 Take the new car.
00:16:12.120 Tell your brother-in-law you won.
00:16:13.700 You know, whatever it is.
00:16:14.460 You got it made.
00:16:15.560 That's how I finally resolved it, right?
00:16:17.480 But listen to this.
00:16:18.660 I go out, and I'm yelling at Jerry and everything.
00:16:21.440 And I said, Jerry, I don't trust this guy.
00:16:23.460 I don't trust him.
00:16:24.380 I said, you happen to be walking down the street, and a safe falls on your head.
00:16:27.220 I can't do it.
00:16:27.720 I said, here's what I'm going to do.
00:16:28.940 He said, what?
00:16:31.060 I said, you got a brother out in California.
00:16:32.820 I said, go out to California for a while.
00:16:34.820 Go relax out there.
00:16:36.060 When I think everything's all right, I'll call you back.
00:16:39.140 And you got to understand, Mario resented me because I'm 30 years younger than him.
00:16:42.560 I'm a new guy, so he already don't like me for that reason alone.
00:16:45.860 So Jerry goes out, and about two months later, he calls me up.
00:16:50.160 He says, hey, chief.
00:16:51.580 He says, we're going to be in the movie business.
00:16:54.100 I said, what do you know about movies?
00:16:55.300 Ah, don't worry.
00:16:55.920 It's easy.
00:16:56.360 We got a script and all this kind of stuff.
00:16:58.120 Don't worry about it.
00:16:58.680 He says, send me $83,000.
00:17:00.360 You'll be my partner.
00:17:02.160 I said, all right.
00:17:02.740 So I sent him $83,000, and we produced this movie called Mausoleum, which was a horror
00:17:07.860 movie, right?
00:17:09.140 P.S.
00:17:09.560 The end result is a million dollars later, we produced this movie, a horror movie that
00:17:14.120 didn't scare anybody but me, I'll be honest with you.
00:17:17.500 But that's how I backed into the movie business.
00:17:20.580 And then from there, I realized right away, I'll tell you what I said.
00:17:23.780 You remember Golan and Globus?
00:17:25.200 Anybody remember that name?
00:17:26.240 Peter Guba would have told you all about them.
00:17:28.140 They were two guys, they had a company, and they were doing all of these, you know, kind
00:17:33.040 of exploitation films.
00:17:34.800 So I spent a million dollars on this film.
00:17:36.760 So I go and see them.
00:17:37.660 They had offices in New York.
00:17:38.860 I said, hey, I got this film.
00:17:40.300 We spent a million dollars.
00:17:41.700 And he said, okay.
00:17:42.740 He said, we'll give you 25 grand.
00:17:45.180 I said, I don't think you heard me.
00:17:46.620 I said, I spent a million dollars on this.
00:17:48.780 He said, no, we'll give you 25 grand.
00:17:50.260 That was it.
00:17:51.360 So I said, no, thank you.
00:17:52.780 So I take the film, but that's when I realized you had to be in the distribution business.
00:17:57.740 So I bought a distribution company at that point.
00:18:00.060 And that's how I started to get involved in the film business way back when.
00:18:03.260 On an accident, on a mistake, because I didn't pay attention.
00:18:06.620 I just sent them the money.
00:18:07.680 I didn't look into anything.
00:18:09.060 I didn't research anything.
00:18:10.240 I just trusted Jerry.
00:18:11.500 And, you know, I almost got destroyed on that film.
00:18:14.500 Did it end up being profitable?
00:18:15.980 It ended up being profitable, yeah.
00:18:17.400 So saving Jerry's life made you money.
00:18:19.600 Yes.
00:18:20.600 A lot of headaches, but it made me money, yes.
00:18:22.940 It was worth saving his life.
00:18:24.740 Michael, let me ask you this.
00:18:26.960 You know, running a business, a lot of people who run a business here, you wonder whose support,
00:18:34.600 who is sales, whose operations, who's this, who's that.
00:18:38.200 In your world, you would tell me, you guys got soldiers, you guys got earners, right?
00:18:42.820 What is the difference between a personality of a soldier and an earner?
00:18:47.540 And did you ever have a situation where a soldier also was a great earner?
00:18:51.860 But was there a quality for each?
00:18:54.060 We had about, at that time, we had about 115 made guys, guys that actually took the oath.
00:19:00.420 Out of the 115, Patrick, 20 of us were earning.
00:19:04.180 That's it, 20 of us.
00:19:06.100 The other 95 who had a, you know, a gambling problem, we gave them a union job.
00:19:10.960 We tried to do our best to support them, but then they did a lot of the, you know,
00:19:16.100 the heavy work, the street work, because, you know, it's like anything else.
00:19:19.820 You want to protect the golden goose.
00:19:21.240 So the guys that are bringing in the money, you try not to jeopardize them.
00:19:24.920 And the other guys that are just capitalizing on being part of that life,
00:19:28.560 we made them do the work, you know, most of the time.
00:19:30.980 Was there a personality difference or no?
00:19:33.100 Like, was there a trend amongst the 95 soldiers that they were not business savvy,
00:19:38.760 they were not communicators, they were not leaders, maybe they were tougher guys,
00:19:43.360 maybe they were not?
00:19:44.180 What was the difference between the two?
00:19:45.520 Yeah, I mean, you could tell almost immediately, you know,
00:19:47.760 you talk to a guy a few minutes, you know if he's got a head for business or not.
00:19:51.400 And then, you know, some of those guys, they're just thrilled to be part of the life,
00:19:56.700 and they want to do whatever they got, but they don't know how to earn.
00:19:59.020 I mean, they really don't.
00:19:59.960 You got to give them a job, you got to support them.
00:20:02.000 Look, in that life, we were all Shylocking money. 1.00
00:20:04.100 You know what Shylocking means, lending it out in your serious rates. 1.00
00:20:06.940 Every one of us were in that business.
00:20:09.660 So what I did with the guys around me that really couldn't earn on their own,
00:20:13.720 I would give them money in turn to put out on the street.
00:20:16.760 So we'd earn a couple points a week, I'd give it to them,
00:20:19.200 and then, you know, that's how you made guys earn back then.
00:20:21.600 It was a little easier, you know, because you had that kind of thing going.
00:20:25.020 And, you know, back then in the 80s, bank money wasn't easy to come by.
00:20:29.720 So we had plenty of customers that wanted money all the time.
00:20:33.260 I lent a lot of business people money back then.
00:20:35.340 And you were making, what, two and a half to five points?
00:20:38.080 Yeah, it would go from two and a half to five points, you know.
00:20:41.080 And then sometimes if you, you know, I'll be honest with you,
00:20:43.580 if you wanted to take the business over, you know, you give the guy,
00:20:47.160 you make it a little harder for him to pay every week.
00:20:49.280 So he'd pay five, six, seven points.
00:20:51.200 But, you know, it's easy.
00:20:52.580 You come to me at 12 o'clock, you got the money at two.
00:20:55.080 There's no application or nothing, you know, and you go about your business.
00:20:57.940 But it was big business at the time.
00:21:01.420 Michael, a lot of the names that we know, you know, the Gotti, your father,
00:21:06.340 who's legendary at what he did within that world, and Persico, Paul Castellano,
00:21:11.840 all these guys, the names that we've seen all across Hollywood.
00:21:15.440 Who were some of the names that were earners that we don't hear the names?
00:21:19.640 Like guys who you would say, that guy was legit.
00:21:23.040 This guy was real at what he was doing.
00:21:24.460 But it's not commercialized like some of the other names.
00:21:27.860 Castellano was legit.
00:21:29.000 He was a big earner.
00:21:29.880 He had a good head for business.
00:21:31.220 He was, you know, he had a lot of legitimate things going.
00:21:33.820 And then if you're a boss, people are sending you money all the time, you know.
00:21:37.740 Patrick, when I went into the gas business, I'll tell you how it happened.
00:21:41.360 You know, I backed into that too.
00:21:42.600 You know, a lot of people have the impression that mob guys sit in their social clubs.
00:21:47.220 And this is important for you to know.
00:21:48.520 They sit in their social clubs, and they target businesses.
00:21:51.280 They say, we're going to go after this, going to go after that.
00:21:53.520 It doesn't happen that way 90% of the time.
00:21:56.500 It's somebody within the business that has some kind of scheme to make a little extra money.
00:22:01.900 And they'll come to us and present it to us because they figure if they need financing, we can give it to them.
00:22:06.760 If they need, you know, some muscle, we can give it to them.
00:22:09.520 And we're never going to tell on them.
00:22:11.160 So they come to us.
00:22:12.140 That happened to me so often.
00:22:13.660 People that wanted to make a few extra bucks, they'd come to me.
00:22:16.120 And that's how I'd get involved.
00:22:17.280 That's how I got involved in the gas business.
00:22:18.820 So, you know, there were really legitimate guys.
00:22:24.540 Persico, for instance.
00:22:25.680 He was a pretty good earner.
00:22:27.340 When I found out what I had with the gas business, I went to him and I said, Junior, here's the deal.
00:22:32.600 I'm going to show you more money than you ever saw in your life.
00:22:35.760 But, and he right away said, no drugs.
00:22:37.460 We don't get involved in drugs.
00:22:38.560 Because we didn't get involved in, we got involved in drugs, we got killed.
00:22:41.560 We weren't allowed.
00:22:42.200 Big fallacy out there that mob was pushing drugs back then.
00:22:45.400 Not true.
00:22:46.280 Some guys were doing it on a sneak, but as a business, we didn't get involved.
00:22:50.040 So I said, Junior, it's not drugs.
00:22:51.760 He said, what is it?
00:22:52.500 I said, it's gas.
00:22:53.980 What do you mean?
00:22:54.640 I said, well, it's a tax thing that I created.
00:22:58.100 I said, but here's the deal.
00:23:00.280 Everybody's going to want to get involved in this.
00:23:02.040 From all five families, they're all going to want to get involved.
00:23:04.920 As soon as you open that door, we're going to get in trouble.
00:23:08.060 I said, it's going to be the same thing that happens all the time.
00:23:11.200 I said, you've got to make me win every argument.
00:23:13.620 You can't play politics.
00:23:14.720 Don't sell me out.
00:23:15.700 I told them just like that.
00:23:17.240 I said, you do that.
00:23:18.220 You make me win every time because I'll be right, and I'm going to show you more money
00:23:22.040 than you ever had.
00:23:23.620 Let me see.
00:23:25.080 At one point in time, after probably six months, I was bringing them in almost $2 million a
00:23:29.740 week.
00:23:30.680 Now, in that life, $2 million a week buys you a lot of loyalty.
00:23:33.840 Trust me.
00:23:34.640 I never lost an argument in the gas business.
00:23:36.860 Never lost.
00:23:37.520 And I went against Gotti.
00:23:38.700 I went against Castellano.
00:23:39.900 I went against everybody that wanted a piece.
00:23:43.000 So, you know, does that apply to the real world?
00:23:46.040 Look, when people are making money with you, they're happy.
00:23:48.300 I mean, that's the way it is.
00:23:49.340 You know, they're happy.
00:23:50.040 I mean, money buys a lot of loyalty in business.
00:23:52.500 You know, people don't want to disrupt that.
00:23:54.000 And it's true on the street, and I think it's true in real life, too.
00:23:56.500 I've seen that.
00:23:57.040 You know that.
00:23:57.600 Powerful.
00:23:58.080 That's very true.
00:23:58.800 So, when you make money, your partners, vendors, everybody's happy.
00:24:01.820 You continue doing business, and they do additional things for you.
00:24:05.660 You had a lot of issues, I mean, within your career, whether it's government or lawyers
00:24:11.120 or any of that stuff.
00:24:12.500 How do you yourself see the court system that we have?
00:24:17.100 And outside of the court system, you know, today, like in a marketplace of being an entrepreneur
00:24:22.380 or building a business, what do you think are some things business people need to look
00:24:26.540 out for that has to do with lawyers, that has to do with the government and regulation?
00:24:32.540 You got me going on a wrong subject there.
00:24:34.500 But, you know, listen, you know, and I wrote this in my book.
00:24:38.240 Look, I made a lot of money illegally, a lot of money.
00:24:41.040 You know, I had this gasoline tax fraud case, I mean, deal that at one point in time, we were
00:24:46.120 pulling in $7, $8 million a week.
00:24:48.520 Okay?
00:24:48.840 A lot of it cash.
00:24:49.600 A lot of it, I had to devise a system to send money through wires overseas to various
00:24:53.800 bank accounts.
00:24:54.500 We did different things to try to hide the money that we were earning.
00:24:58.200 When I finally got in trouble, when the government came on me with these racketeering laws that
00:25:02.080 are devastating, you don't ever want to get involved in a RICO, very, very hard to defend,
00:25:06.580 and it'll cost you millions of dollars, even if you're innocent.
00:25:09.480 It doesn't matter.
00:25:10.100 Just defend these cases.
00:25:11.380 They're very difficult.
00:25:12.020 And, you know, in all my cases, like Giuliani indicts me on a case, I had a million-dollar
00:25:18.660 bail.
00:25:19.540 I paid my lawyers almost $3 million.
00:25:21.860 I spent seven months in a courtroom every single day on trial.
00:25:26.820 It took me a year and a half to prepare.
00:25:29.080 I was found not guilty, but it cost me $20 million.
00:25:32.220 Wow.
00:25:32.900 $20 million to be found not guilty.
00:25:35.500 Yeah.
00:25:36.180 So, at the end of the day, all right, I didn't go to jail, but look at the devastation it
00:25:40.060 causes.
00:25:40.480 How many people can handle that, you know, and pay that kind of money?
00:25:44.340 Me, I don't like a lawyer unless I absolutely, I hope there's no lawyers in here, no offense
00:25:49.140 matters.
00:25:49.300 There are a few, but.
00:25:50.620 Unless I absolutely need them, I try to avoid them.
00:25:54.540 That's, and I've been through lawyers my whole life.
00:25:57.260 But I tell you this, you know, you cut corners legally, that's fine.
00:26:02.000 But it absolutely doesn't pay to do anything that's going to bring you heat with the government
00:26:06.460 or the IRS.
00:26:07.760 It took me, literally, when I got out of prison, I had a $103 million fine from the IRS.
00:26:15.680 $103 million.
00:26:16.960 I'll tell you how.
00:26:19.060 My partner in the gas business became an informant, and he started to testify in all
00:26:23.260 the gasoline trials, right?
00:26:24.980 There was probably seven or eight of them.
00:26:26.920 Every time a witness got on the stand and said, oh, I gave Francis $5 million, I gave Francis
00:26:31.680 $6 million.
00:26:32.960 Next thing I know, I get a letter from the IRS.
00:26:35.720 They assessed me that, when the guy was saying it from the witness stand, even if the guy
00:26:41.200 got, the case was acquitted, they still assessed me with it.
00:26:45.160 And then they used to say, if you want to pay by credit card or whatever.
00:26:47.880 So I used to write my credit card and say, here, pay it, right?
00:26:50.400 I used to get these notes in prison.
00:26:52.460 So I get out, I got $103 million fine from the IRS.
00:26:56.380 Now, how do you get by on that?
00:26:58.160 I'll give you a little secret.
00:26:59.160 I used to go to try to buy a car, and they said to me, are you kidding me?
00:27:02.580 You got $103 million fine.
00:27:04.260 I said, yeah, but let me tell you the flip side of that.
00:27:06.280 If I owe the government $103 million, you must know I'm a pretty good earner, so give me the
00:27:10.320 car.
00:27:10.900 They said, okay, you got it.
00:27:13.380 I swear to God.
00:27:14.660 I said, what are you worried about the credit report?
00:27:16.200 I owe them $103 million.
00:27:17.060 You know I can make money.
00:27:18.160 Okay, they gave me the car.
00:27:18.920 You got to be kidding me.
00:27:19.980 I swear to God.
00:27:21.540 Same way I bought a house that way one time at the bank.
00:27:23.800 I said, don't worry about that.
00:27:25.020 I'm going to pay.
00:27:26.200 And when you're on the street, you learn some of that dialogue.
00:27:28.380 But anyway, so every year I'm going to court in Brooklyn on this $103 million.
00:27:35.280 I said, look, if you claim there's money someplace, go and get it.
00:27:38.360 They wrote a book that I got money buried all over the world, and they're investigating
00:27:42.160 me like crazy.
00:27:43.000 They're making me sign statements.
00:27:44.480 I don't have money in foreign banks.
00:27:46.560 Every year I'm going back.
00:27:47.960 Every year I'm going back.
00:27:49.060 20 years.
00:27:50.440 I finally get in front of the judge.
00:27:51.960 I got mad at my lawyer.
00:27:53.020 I said, you're not solving anything for me here.
00:27:55.120 They keep coming.
00:27:55.840 I'm not paying them.
00:27:57.380 So I told the judge, you know, I live in California.
00:27:59.880 I said, why are you just making me come here all the time?
00:28:01.900 I'm saying the same thing.
00:28:02.900 I live in California.
00:28:03.940 Change the venue.
00:28:05.460 He was so tired of the case.
00:28:07.000 He said, I got a good idea.
00:28:08.260 I'm sending it out to California, right?
00:28:09.960 So he sends it out to California.
00:28:11.940 This is funny.
00:28:13.220 About three months later, I get a call from the agent.
00:28:15.780 He's coming.
00:28:16.300 I got to see it.
00:28:17.000 So I walk in.
00:28:18.420 He looks at me.
00:28:19.780 He said, I got to ask you a question.
00:28:21.140 He's got about 20 file boxes in the back of you.
00:28:23.680 He says, what is all of this?
00:28:26.020 I said, well, didn't people tell you what this is?
00:28:29.280 He says, all they do is send me boxes and say you owe 103 million.
00:28:32.920 I said, I've been fighting the case for 20 years.
00:28:35.080 We're going to fight it for another 20 years unless you make a deal and settle with me now.
00:28:39.280 He's okay.
00:28:40.180 He says, 103 million.
00:28:42.400 He's how about we settle for 10 million?
00:28:44.520 I said, I don't think you're hearing me.
00:28:45.580 I don't have any money.
00:28:46.300 We're not going to settle for anything.
00:28:47.880 Bottom line is we're back and forth.
00:28:49.720 I settled it for $250,000.
00:28:54.060 Yes.
00:28:55.560 No way.
00:28:56.080 You got to hear the best.
00:28:57.900 So he says, you're going to write me a check.
00:28:59.700 I'll give you 30 days.
00:29:00.740 I said, you didn't hear me.
00:29:01.840 I don't have any money.
00:29:03.020 I said, you got to stretch this out over five years.
00:29:05.160 I'll pay you every month, right?
00:29:06.820 He stretched it out over five years.
00:29:08.760 You got to be kidding me.
00:29:10.100 Swear to God.
00:29:11.440 So I said, unless you want to keep investigating.
00:29:13.320 He just wanted to get rid of me, too.
00:29:14.780 He said, let's just settle this thing.
00:29:17.040 103 down to 250, five-year payout.
00:29:19.460 That was it.
00:29:20.260 We got a couple of construction company guys here that are very good at shoveling and digging for money.
00:29:26.940 Are there any hidden spots you want to advise them going digging for some money?
00:29:30.780 Well, here's what they tell you.
00:29:31.760 Okay.
00:29:32.640 Here's how the IRS gets you.
00:29:34.320 The statute of limitations is over on any money that I might have stolen back in the 80s, right?
00:29:40.900 But here's how they get you.
00:29:42.100 They make you sign a statement under the penalty of perjury that you have no money in farm banks.
00:29:47.180 You got no money here.
00:29:48.140 They go down a laundry list.
00:29:49.540 Like, you got no money in your bathroom, in your closet, in your shoebox.
00:29:52.560 They go through the whole thing.
00:29:54.160 And there's a 10-year statute of limitations on the perjury.
00:29:57.480 So they don't get you for the money.
00:29:58.940 They get you for the perjury, right?
00:30:00.820 So I was talking to a few people today at lunch.
00:30:03.260 Today or yesterday, I remember, at lunch.
00:30:04.700 And the last statement I signed, I have 19 months to go before I have to sign another one.
00:30:11.580 So now I was talking to my lawyer.
00:30:13.160 I said, look, if I refuse to sign another one, what are they going to do?
00:30:16.880 He said, well, probably when you have a year left, they're going to tell you to come in and sign another one.
00:30:22.100 And I said, well, if I say no, what are they going to do?
00:30:24.180 I said, let's take them to court.
00:30:25.820 Let's argue with them a little bit.
00:30:27.600 I said, because if we get a lapse of time and there is any money there, and I'm not saying there is, but just in case there is, you know, I don't know who's in this audience, but just in case there is.
00:30:39.740 We're just looking for cross streets.
00:30:41.760 That's all we want.
00:30:42.620 Maybe that lapse of time, I can go grab a few bucks if there's anything there until I sign another one.
00:30:47.900 But then it's too late for them.
00:30:49.100 Who knows?
00:30:49.920 Thanks, everybody, for listening.
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00:30:58.780 And if you have any questions for me that you may have, you can always find me on Snapchat, Instagram, Facebook, or YouTube.
00:31:04.820 Just search my name, Patrick MidDavid.
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00:31:11.740 With that being said, have a great day today.
00:31:13.460 Take care, everybody.
00:31:14.180 Bye-bye.