Valuetainment - Episode 343： Tim Donaghy Opens Us About NBA Referees

00:00:00.820 30 seconds. One time for the underdog. One time for the underdog. Ignition sequence start.

00:00:06.960 Let me see you put them up. Reach the sky, turn the stars up above.

00:00:11.100 Cause it's one time for the underdog. One time for the underdog.

00:00:17.260 I'm Patrick Bedevi, your host of AITM, and today I'm sitting down with Tim Donahue,

00:00:20.780 who was a former referee who got arrested, went and did time.

00:00:24.080 He opens up about what the NBA looks like today, and if referees are still gambling and cheating.

00:00:28.920 Me, as a big sports fan, I always followed, you know, basketball, baseball,

00:00:34.260 and sometimes when you got the referees that affect the game, you get pissed off when a referee makes a good call or a bad call,

00:00:40.100 and you wonder, is there something going on here?

00:00:42.720 So today we have Tim Donahue. Let me tell you a little bit about Tim Donahue's background.

00:00:46.640 He reffed from 1994 to 07, which is a very interesting 13-year career,

00:00:52.520 because during that time he reffed with MJ's peak, Kobe's peak, LeBron's peak, Shaq, a lot of other names.

00:00:59.480 So we're going to get into a lot of those personalities.

00:01:01.200 But also there was a part where from 03 to 07, he was gambling while refereeing,

00:01:06.520 which ended up costing him his job, ended 15 months in prison.

00:01:09.680 And he wrote a book we'll talk about.

00:01:11.020 Very, very interesting stories that if you're a sports fan or somebody that even is in that world,

00:01:16.620 you're definitely going to be blown away by some of the stories that he has.

00:01:18.740 So with that being said, Tim Donahue, thanks for being on the way, Tainman.

00:01:21.600 Thanks for having me.

00:01:22.200 Yeah, we had an interesting lunch earlier.

00:01:25.280 Those conversations were good.

00:01:26.680 So I wish some of it was recorded, but I'm sure we're going to touch up on some of the stories.

00:01:31.760 So Tim, before we get into the whole story,

00:01:35.020 the first question I want to know when I go back and I call people around who went to school with you,

00:01:40.220 I found a few guys that went to school with you who knew you when you were 16, 17, 18.

00:01:44.680 I asked them, I said, how was he in school?

00:01:47.280 You know, and they told me what they thought how you were in school.

00:01:49.520 But I want to ask you, who were you in high school?

00:01:51.560 If I went to high school with you, who was Tim?

00:01:54.540 Definitely the class clown.

00:01:55.780 You know, I like to push the envelope a little bit and have a lot of fun.

00:01:59.640 So definitely the guy that was trying to make everybody laugh.

00:02:03.440 Were you a chippy guy? 0.63

00:02:04.580 Were you always a competitive guy?

00:02:06.120 Were you always like, were you from a family that you had high expectations?

00:02:10.380 Where was that coming from?

00:02:12.200 Definitely probably overly competitive.

00:02:14.700 Even today when I do something with the kids, you know, talk about having four daughters,

00:02:20.060 you know, whatever it is, if we're playing a game of cards, you know, I want to win.

00:02:23.320 So, yeah, overly competitive, you know, with every aspect of, you know, you play to win.

00:02:28.960 That's the way I grew up.

00:02:30.040 Did you play all sports or was it mainly basketball?

00:02:32.200 Mainly basketball, baseball, a little bit of football when I was younger.

00:02:34.740 But the main thing that I enjoyed the most was basketball.

00:02:38.120 And you were a pretty competitive basketball player.

00:02:39.920 I mean, like you played.

00:02:41.440 You actually know how to play the game.

00:02:43.060 Yeah, definitely.

00:02:43.760 I mean, like I said, when I got involved in doing something competitive, it wasn't something

00:02:49.700 where, you know, second place was an option.

00:02:51.600 You played to win and win at all costs.

00:02:53.780 Is that a standard that was set by pops or mom?

00:02:56.600 Was that like a family standard, like you better compete?

00:02:58.720 I think it's just a standard growing up with, you know, four brothers.

00:03:02.800 Everybody was competitive in the area that I grew up in.

00:03:05.840 You just played to win.

00:03:07.020 There was no way that, you know, anyone wanted to come in second place.

00:03:10.880 If you went home in second place, you better go home with a bunch of blood on you.

00:03:14.540 I read somewhere that you had a one time you came home and you had a third place trophy

00:03:18.860 or a second place trophy.

00:03:19.940 You pulled down the window, you threw it out because you didn't want to show your dad

00:03:22.340 you were second or third place.

00:03:23.500 Right over the Walt Whitman Bridge, you know, rolled the window down, threw it right in the water.

00:03:27.440 Literally.

00:03:28.060 Absolutely.

00:03:28.540 And you remember this.

00:03:29.580 Oh, sure.

00:03:30.080 Because, you know, I had older brothers that, you know, had trophies.

00:03:34.200 You know, we all lined them up on the heaters in the bedroom and, you know, nobody had a

00:03:38.240 second place trophy.

00:03:39.260 It wasn't like it is today where everybody gets a participation trophy, you know.

00:03:43.060 It was a first place trophy or nothing.

00:03:44.880 So you definitely didn't want to walk in my house with that.

00:03:47.760 Is that competitiveness, like the part I'm trying, I got three kids myself, so I'm just

00:03:52.000 curious to know, was it driven by somebody?

00:03:55.660 Meaning, was it just because you had four brothers, you know, four of you and obviously

00:03:59.200 that's a competitive environment, period.

00:04:00.800 But you're in Philly, which is a very competitive sports city.

00:04:04.200 All sports is competitive.

00:04:05.800 And the culture in Philadelphia, especially where you grew up at.

00:04:09.080 So was your dad expecting all of you guys to perform at a high level or no, it was purely

00:04:14.360 just the brothers?

00:04:15.720 No, no, absolutely.

00:04:16.660 I mean, my dad, you know, had high expectations for all of us and whatever we got involved

00:04:21.360 in, even today, you know, when I got in all my trouble, we'd have conversations.

00:04:26.140 I'd be like, I don't know what I'm going to do with my life.

00:04:28.140 And he said, you know, I don't care if you have to dig ditches for a life, just be the

00:04:31.920 best ditch digger you can be.

00:04:33.840 He would tell you that?

00:04:34.620 Absolutely.

00:04:35.100 Really?

00:04:35.620 Absolutely.

00:04:35.900 So even when you went through it, he still kept the same mindset with you?

00:04:38.260 Yes, yes.

00:04:39.240 Wow.

00:04:40.000 Was he a guy that he felt bad for you for going through it or no?

00:04:42.420 He just said, man up, take the responsibility.

00:04:44.140 Like, what approach did he take with you?

00:04:46.060 I think deep down he probably felt bad, but no, definitely man up.

00:04:49.500 You got yourself into this.

00:04:50.540 You're going to have to get yourself out of it.

00:04:52.000 You have four daughters and, you know, dig deep and do what you have to do.

00:04:56.620 Interesting.

00:04:57.300 So how does one go about becoming a referee in the NBA?

00:05:00.460 I mean, obviously, you don't have a lot of referees.

00:05:02.280 Like, this isn't an option where you got 200 refs, ref in a game.

00:05:06.160 It's typically the same faces for a decade, two decades.

00:05:09.240 Some even 30 years are refereeing, right?

00:05:11.120 Or more.

00:05:11.880 So how does one become a referee?

00:05:13.780 You know, I was fortunate that the area I was from was a hotbed for referees, whether it

00:05:18.340 was college referees or even NBA referees.

00:05:20.720 We had Joe Crawford.

00:05:21.840 We had Tom Washington, Steve Javi.

00:05:24.060 So, you know, we had a lot of people that, you know, came from our area.

00:05:27.720 So, you know, it was just-

00:05:29.740 Why is that, though?

00:05:30.240 Why from there?

00:05:31.760 I think what happened was is people saw and these people were accessible in the community

00:05:37.100 and you thought to yourself, wow, if he did it, I could probably do it.

00:05:40.760 Because I guess I'm asking a question.

00:05:42.220 You went to school, same school that what, Ed Molloy Crawford went to?

00:05:47.120 Joe Crawford.

00:05:47.760 Joe Crawford.

00:05:48.360 Molloy.

00:05:48.980 Molloy.

00:05:49.600 Mike Callahan.

00:05:50.420 I mean, that's a- So, you know how you say Silicon Valley, all the technology companies

00:05:54.660 come out of- Why refereeing there?

00:05:57.140 I mean, there's refereeing going on everywhere.

00:05:59.380 Is one guy made it and he started making money so people followed his footsteps?

00:06:03.160 What was the reasoning for that?

00:06:04.400 I think, you know, Crawford was a big guy in our area.

00:06:07.800 He was accessible in the community.

00:06:09.620 It's not like, you know, he was some- Felt like he was somebody special.

00:06:13.760 He gave back to the younger referees and would go to a park where you were reffing, you know,

00:06:18.880 a men's league game and he'd show up and he'd start giving you pointers.

00:06:22.380 So, he passed it down to a lot of people in that area and it was great basketball in the

00:06:27.140 Philadelphia area so you were always refereeing, you know, the good athletes so you learned

00:06:31.820 a lot quicker than maybe somebody that was refereeing somewhere else.

00:06:35.200 So, you got used to the bigger guys and the hard play and when you got in front of those

00:06:39.860 people that you were looking to impress, you were ready for it.

00:06:45.300 So, what was your break?

00:06:46.300 I mean, I know you went to Villanova for school yourself, right?

00:06:51.160 And then you were refereeing some college games but when was your break when you all of a

00:06:55.620 sudden got the offer to go into the NBA?

00:06:57.340 You know, what happened for me was I was lucky because my father was a Final Four official,

00:07:01.800 did the Final Four for several years.

00:07:03.380 So, my last name was recognized in the officiating community.

00:07:07.340 So, when I started to do it, I got a lot of breaks probably a lot sooner than a lot of

00:07:11.400 other people did so it was a training process and a training program and, you know, I took

00:07:17.360 it very seriously and I was fortunate that, you know, I made it to the NBA.

00:07:21.440 What was your first game?

00:07:22.340 First game you reffed.

00:07:23.100 Do you remember that?

00:07:23.800 I do.

00:07:24.460 I do.

00:07:24.900 It was in Indiana and they were playing Houston.

00:07:28.760 Indiana will be Reggie Miller, Olajuwon era.

00:07:36.100 So, that's a good era.

00:07:38.000 Larry Brown coaching, tough coach.

00:07:40.380 Thousand wins, yeah.

00:07:41.400 Yeah.

00:07:41.840 And at the end of the game, Reggie Miller makes a move and he's always trying to draw contact

00:07:47.100 and jumped into somebody and I called an offensive foul.

00:07:50.960 Miller, over Olajuwon Fowler.

00:07:54.440 They're going to call an offensive foul on Reggie Miller.

00:07:57.400 Oh, boy, that took a lot of guts by that young official and, boy, look at the debris come

00:08:03.160 out on the court.

00:08:04.200 And the place went nuts, threw stuff on the court.

00:08:07.860 Game couldn't be played for about 20 minutes and that was my first game and, you know, how

00:08:12.300 you always go back to your hotel room and you watch SportsCenter, da-da-da-da, da-da-da.

00:08:16.620 There's my picture.

00:08:18.540 And it was funny because I don't know who did it.

00:08:21.500 Nobody would admit it.

00:08:22.240 But, you know, I had football helmets sent to my house from one of the other referees,

00:08:25.860 you know, saying you're probably going to need this for the rest of your career.

00:08:28.340 So, that was my first game and it was something that I always remember.

00:08:33.720 What was that reaction?

00:08:34.640 I mean, your dad being a referee, did he call you saying, what are you doing?

00:08:37.520 That was a good call.

00:08:38.320 Was that, did you hear?

00:08:39.500 Well, I'll never forget.

00:08:40.320 Daryl Garrison was at the game and as we walked off the floor and went into the locker room,

00:08:44.460 he said, we're going to find out real quick if you're going to make it in this league because

00:08:48.040 that call better be right.

00:08:49.820 And he backed me up and supported me and so did Rod Thorne with the call.

00:08:53.780 Looking back, probably would have been the easier call to make, would have been just to

00:08:57.740 put Reggie through the line.

00:08:59.620 It was one of those things that could have went either way.

00:09:02.000 But, you know, I called the offensive foul.

00:09:04.700 What did your dad tell you?

00:09:05.820 Did he tell you anything when he saw you on ESPN or no?

00:09:08.220 No, I mean, my dad would watch the games.

00:09:10.320 And, you know, give me pointers here and there.

00:09:12.180 But the college game was really much different than the NBA game.

00:09:15.840 It wasn't, you know, in college, you refereed the rules as they were written in the rule

00:09:19.080 book.

00:09:19.400 In the NBA, you refereed personalities and names on the front and the back of the jersey.

00:09:23.680 So it was a different game.

00:09:25.680 Interesting.

00:09:26.320 Complete different game.

00:09:27.200 Yes.

00:09:27.740 You actually were one of the three referees of the night when the Pacers against the Pistons

00:09:33.340 fight took place.

00:09:34.300 Right.

00:09:34.500 What happened?

00:09:35.700 I mean, obviously, everybody knows what happened with Ben Wallace and Ron Artest, but how did

00:09:39.880 it get crazy all of a sudden?

00:09:41.980 I think you guys had to stop the entire game and send everybody home.

00:09:44.600 Yeah.

00:09:44.820 It was just bad blood, I think, from previous games.

00:09:47.400 And the game was pretty much decided and over.

00:09:50.440 And during a dead ball after a free throw, you know, they start pushing each other.

00:09:55.160 And the next thing you know, we're trying to straighten things out.

00:09:58.620 And Artest goes over and sits by the table and somebody, you know, throws a beer on him

00:10:02.920 and then all hell breaks loose.

00:10:04.660 So, yeah, standing in the middle of that with chairs flying and, you know, Jermaine O'Neal

00:10:12.200 squared up with a guy and punched him.

00:10:15.260 And if there wasn't so much water and beer on the floor, he lost his back foot.

00:10:19.600 And I think if he didn't lose his back foot, I think that kid would be dead because, you

00:10:23.680 know, there's a guy with a lot of power just punching somebody as hard as he could.

00:10:27.060 So it was definitely scary.

00:10:28.740 What made it get to the point where you're like, we have to call the game.

00:10:30.980 We have to say, what was the tipping point?

00:10:32.640 There was just too many fights going on in the stands.

00:10:36.240 The floor was completely soaked with things.

00:10:38.860 Who called the shots to say the game is called?

00:10:40.760 Ron Garrison, who was the crew chief at that time, said, there's no way we can play this

00:10:44.260 game.

00:10:44.520 We got to get out of here.

00:10:45.260 Someone's going to get seriously hurt.

00:10:47.240 And, you know, everything was just flying all over the place.

00:10:49.800 So we just ran for cover.

00:10:51.640 When's the last time that ever happened to the NBA?

00:10:53.040 I don't think it ever happened.

00:10:54.160 I don't think.

00:10:54.700 I mean, I was researching.

00:10:55.820 How many times has a game been called?

00:10:57.480 I don't think it's.

00:10:58.180 I mean, in baseball games, you get called for rain.

00:11:00.920 Right.

00:11:01.120 But you get a game called for this.

00:11:03.420 Yeah.

00:11:03.700 It was definitely scary.

00:11:05.120 Plus, Rashid was on the floor.

00:11:06.780 I was afraid he was going to take a swing at me.

00:11:11.780 Oh, my God.

00:11:12.860 And obviously, Ben's a big boy.

00:11:14.760 Artes is a big boy.

00:11:15.860 All the tough guys were all in the game.

00:11:17.920 I grabbed Ron Artes by the jersey, and he drug me like I was just an ant right up into the

00:11:23.760 stand.

00:11:24.140 So it was like I wasn't even on his back.

00:11:27.800 Yeah.

00:11:28.360 It cost him how many games?

00:11:29.880 68 games?

00:11:30.700 Yeah.

00:11:31.040 The rest of the year.

00:11:31.920 And then Steven Jackson said something like that game cost him $3.8 million, some big

00:11:38.080 number with the fights that broke out in the stands.

00:11:40.980 But I think the last time I saw something like that take place was in 96, 95 season when

00:11:46.380 Vernon Maxwell ran up 16 rows and Ori pulled him back.

00:11:50.220 I don't know if you remember that game or not.

00:11:51.780 I do.

00:11:52.360 I do.

00:11:52.860 This was a long time ago.

00:11:54.100 I'm like, what is Vernon Maxwell doing?

00:11:55.440 Ori pulled him out and said, listen, we got to get out of here.

00:11:58.040 I had never seen it that bad with fans.

00:12:00.860 But it was an interesting one.

00:12:02.560 OK.

00:12:02.900 So as you're going through and you're reffing and you're doing what you're doing, all these

00:12:06.600 different personalities, who were some of the toughest guys to ref because they talk

00:12:12.180 so much smack to you? 0.84

00:12:13.900 You know, you got to go back to Gary Payton.

00:12:16.700 You know, Reggie Miller was tough at times because he always was trying to draw contact.

00:12:20.880 You didn't know if he was causing it or if the defender was calling it.

00:12:24.340 Carl Malone and, of course, you know, Rashid Wallace was one of those guys that, you know,

00:12:29.040 was always bickering back and forth with the referees.

00:12:32.380 I guess the question I would ask is, you know, the level of difficulty on you because you watch

00:12:38.700 the games and you see who talks a lot to the refs and who doesn't, right?

00:12:42.940 Who talked a lot to you that brought so much pressure to you?

00:12:46.460 Meaning you're playing a game.

00:12:47.560 You know, today you're going to be facing off with Kobe, Jordan, Shaq, Malone, Olajuwon,

00:12:52.800 all these big personalities.

00:12:54.380 Who did you know was demanding to never miss a call on him out of everybody?

00:12:59.480 Rashid, because even if, you know, you were right sometimes, he'd tell you you were wrong.

00:13:04.940 So he was one of the toughest guys to referee because it was just relentless.

00:13:09.240 No matter what, you knew it was going to be a headache the entire 48 minutes.

00:13:13.680 Do you have a story with Wallace?

00:13:15.460 I read about it in the book about, you know, he's got 25 points and they win by 30.

00:13:21.800 And at the end of the game, he takes the ball and, you know, was upset with a call

00:13:25.740 and bounced it to the other referee who was walking away and hit him in the back.

00:13:29.180 And I called a technical foul on him.

00:13:31.360 And he really didn't say much at that point.

00:13:33.500 But, you know, he was really upset and he waited for me out in the parking lot.

00:13:38.220 He waited for you in the parking lot?

00:13:39.540 Yeah, jumped out from behind a pole and literally wanted to fist fight me.

00:13:42.940 So it took about 10 people to hold him back.

00:13:46.200 But he really wanted to kill me.

00:13:47.600 Like to the point of wanting to really hit you.

00:13:49.760 Yeah, squared up, fist in the air.

00:13:51.880 You know, I'm going to kick your ass, you son of a bitch type, you know, screaming. 1.00

00:13:55.720 What was your reaction?

00:13:56.940 My reaction was to stand there and act like I wasn't scared.

00:13:59.940 But I was, you know, definitely terrified.

00:14:02.880 Yeah, he's what?

00:14:03.600 He's 6'11".

00:14:04.420 6'11", long, lengthy, and I'm sure he's been in a couple of scraps in his day.

00:14:09.020 I'm sure he has.

00:14:10.140 Yeah, he would lead the league in technical fouls, I think, every year, 17, 21, 16.

00:14:15.100 Grew up in Philadelphia himself.

00:14:16.420 He's also a Philly guy.

00:14:17.200 I didn't know that.

00:14:17.920 Yeah.

00:14:18.360 I didn't know he grew up there.

00:14:19.540 So you reffed for Mike, right, when he was at his peak.

00:14:23.360 And you reffed with Kobe, right?

00:14:25.460 Who was more demanding?

00:14:27.100 You know, I think with your referees, they came at you two different ways.

00:14:30.900 I think Michael came at you in a way that was, you know, more professional.

00:14:36.400 He would let you know that, you know, you owed him one or he felt like you missed a call.

00:14:40.460 How would he do that to you?

00:14:41.600 Verbally?

00:14:42.120 Verbally.

00:14:42.480 He'd come up to you at a, you know, dead ball or, you know, at a free throw and come over

00:14:46.580 to you and just, you know, whisper to you or, you know, let you know, you know, I got

00:14:50.660 hit down there.

00:14:51.220 What's going on?

00:14:51.780 Why aren't you making this call tonight?

00:14:53.180 And plant the seed in your mind that, you know, when he goes to the basket and he misses

00:14:57.200 a shot, you know, it's not because he missed a shot.

00:15:00.640 It's because he was fouled.

00:15:01.700 Would he berate you and belittle you or that wasn't his thing?

00:15:04.740 No, no.

00:15:04.940 He was never really like that.

00:15:06.840 He was, you know, pretty professional when he went after the referees.

00:15:10.320 Interesting.

00:15:10.840 How about Kobe?

00:15:11.840 Kobe, you know, he was a little more adamant, a little bit more cocky about it, a little

00:15:15.680 bit with the aspect that I'm deserving of it.

00:15:18.220 He knew he was the best player in the game at that time.

00:15:21.020 And, you know, he wanted that treatment that Jordan got for so many years.

00:15:25.080 And he let you know when he felt he wasn't getting it.

00:15:27.200 Did he end up getting his ways or?

00:15:29.320 Oh, absolutely.

00:15:30.060 I'll never forget that, you know, there was a game and this is one of the games where I

00:15:34.580 passed information along to people I shouldn't have.

00:15:36.680 But Phil Jackson sent a tape into the league office and one of the group supervisors came

00:15:43.480 in and told the referees that they sent a tape in that said, you know, here's 25 plays in

00:15:48.740 the last three games that Kobe was fouled on and the referees missed the call.

00:15:52.560 They did different things to plant seeds in the NBA office in the referees' mind to, you

00:15:57.980 know, if they felt that their star player wasn't getting the treatment that they deserved.

00:16:01.420 How often does that happen?

00:16:02.740 Is that pretty common?

00:16:03.940 Very common.

00:16:04.400 For coaches and owners to send videos into home office for you guys to see?

00:16:08.060 Not for the referees to see, but for the association to see.

00:16:10.840 And then hopefully it's going to be passed down.

00:16:13.400 I don't think the league office wanted it passed down in the manner that it was passed

00:16:17.120 down to us, you know, before a game like that.

00:16:19.880 But, you know, that's planting a seed in our heads to make sure we don't miss a play going

00:16:24.460 to the basket with Kobe.

00:16:25.780 And I knew that, you know, he was probably going to go to the line 20 times that night

00:16:29.520 and probably have 30 points.

00:16:31.600 Is that protocol?

00:16:32.620 Is that typical protocol?

00:16:33.740 Like, it's not frowned upon.

00:16:35.220 If I'm Phil, if I'm Popovich, if I'm Riley, if I'm whoever, and I'm not happy about the way

00:16:39.840 the game was reffed, and I take these three plays and I record them and I moderate it

00:16:42.920 and I send it in, that's very much protocol?

00:16:44.900 Yeah, that's done all the time.

00:16:46.020 That's done all the time.

00:16:46.900 Especially during the playoffs.

00:16:47.660 Did anybody do more than others?

00:16:49.780 I think, yeah, I think Mark Cuban really started to go overboard with that and bombard the league

00:16:56.180 office with plays and situations where he felt his team was getting screwed.

00:17:00.440 I noticed one thing you said about Mark is that most of the time his complaints, he was right.

00:17:05.940 So he wasn't just a business guy that didn't know the game and he wasn't savvy.

00:17:11.000 He actually was a business guy who understood the game and when he would get upset about a

00:17:15.900 missed call, most of the time he was right.

00:17:18.200 Is that what your experience was with him?

00:17:19.920 Definitely.

00:17:20.480 I mean, I personally, I liked him.

00:17:21.940 I would always say hi to him.

00:17:23.040 Most of the referees hated his guts because they felt that our job was made harder because

00:17:28.000 of all the complaints that he did, which made us have to break more tape down and file

00:17:32.920 more reports based on the fact that they wanted us to monitor our calls more.

00:17:38.860 And it was because he was sending stuff into the league office and he was asking, why don't

00:17:43.260 the referees do this? 0.64

00:17:44.340 Where's the breakdown from the referees on what's a correct call and what's an incorrect

00:17:48.060 call?

00:17:48.540 Was there a trend with what he wasn't happy with or no?

00:17:51.200 Was there like a specific series of three things, this travel you didn't call or this

00:17:56.200 offensive file you don't call?

00:17:57.400 Are we going to call the kicks with Miller?

00:17:59.120 Or is there any trend yet with things he wasn't happy with?

00:18:01.540 I think Mark's biggest gripe was, and he was 100% right, is that there was so much subjectivity

00:18:08.120 and the rules weren't being reinforced as they were written in the rule book.

00:18:12.480 So, you know, and personalities came into play.

00:18:15.460 So one night somebody may call, you know, rough house play in the post and then the next crew

00:18:21.100 will come in and they're going to let it go.

00:18:22.820 He wanted more of a consistent whistle from the group of referees rather than having different

00:18:28.140 crews officiate different ways.

00:18:30.020 I remember one time I read somewhere saying that they asked David Stern, what does the

00:18:35.480 ideal finals look like?

00:18:37.660 And he said Lakers versus the Lakers, right?

00:18:39.420 He was a big Laker guy, although later on he kind of stopped the Chris Paul trade for

00:18:43.280 Pau Gasol that one year, if you remember what happened with that year.

00:18:46.960 Was there a feeling of the commissioner favors two or three teams and the rest of us are just

00:18:53.040 owners?

00:18:53.720 You're not following the rule book.

00:18:54.980 Is that where the frustration was coming from?

00:18:57.460 Yeah, I think so.

00:18:58.240 Like you said, when he makes a comment that the best ratings would be the Lakers versus

00:19:02.860 the Lakers, the referees see that.

00:19:05.360 And the referees are paid based on advancement from the first round to the second round, the

00:19:10.500 third round to the finals.

00:19:11.700 And they know that you're being graded on certain things.

00:19:15.080 So, you know, Bavetta would say he was the NBA's go-to guy.

00:19:18.540 He was put on game sixes to make game sevens.

00:19:21.620 He said that.

00:19:22.080 He said that several times.

00:19:24.340 And a lot of times he was, you know, on a game six that helped the Lakers advance to

00:19:28.780 a game seven.

00:19:29.620 Or, you know, it was a situation where Portland should have won a series.

00:19:34.380 The Lakers won because of a lot of the calls that he made.

00:19:37.640 The famous Sacramento game six where, you know, things happen at the end of the game

00:19:43.740 that just seemed flat out backwards.

00:19:45.260 And this is a terrible call.

00:19:50.840 And now Bob Delaney with the whistle and the foul on E-box.

00:19:55.740 What is happening here?

00:19:57.360 And here's Christie on the foul once again.

00:19:59.900 Toby Bryant ran over Mike Bibby.

00:20:01.960 Oh, an elbow.

00:20:03.300 Yes.

00:20:04.060 And the Lakers wondering what is going on.

00:20:06.100 This in effect icing try to gather themselves.

00:20:10.680 This Western Conference final series is even.

00:20:14.360 That game seven in Sacramento, his mindset was it's another game.

00:20:18.940 It's a lot more revenue.

00:20:20.560 And game sevens are great for the league.

00:20:22.540 And let the game seven, let the best team win.

00:20:25.580 Of course, L.A. goes into Sacramento and upsets them.

00:20:28.240 That's a year that, you know, Sacramento probably should have had a ring on their finger.

00:20:30.800 I clearly remember this.

00:20:31.540 I remember where I was at.

00:20:32.360 Every game I watched, I could tell you exactly where I was at.

00:20:34.720 Who was reffing game six?

00:20:36.420 I know you were.

00:20:37.060 Who else was in that game?

00:20:38.200 No, that's a bit of a misconception.

00:20:40.580 It was Bob Delaney, Ted Bernhardt, and Dick Bavetta were refereeing that game six.

00:20:45.020 So I think people get Delaney and Donaghy confused a little bit.

00:20:48.200 And that's the game where in the fourth quarter, I think Lakers shot 27 free throws versus, you

00:20:53.580 know, the Kings shot 10 free throws or 7-4-9, I want it to be exact.

00:20:58.340 And Lakers shot 27, which is insane to shoot 27 free throws in the fourth quarter.

00:21:02.440 And you see the whole play.

00:21:03.240 That happens from the Chris Webber offensive foul.

00:21:06.060 You know which one I'm talking about.

00:21:06.980 He turns, they call the offensive foul.

00:21:09.020 And then a series of fouls that made no sense, absolutely made no sense.

00:21:13.240 And then they lose the game.

00:21:14.740 So when that happens, how much of that is association coming down saying we need a seven

00:21:21.800 for the Lakers to go to game seven versus Nets, Kings?

00:21:25.980 I'd rather have Lakers Nets than have, you know, the Kings.

00:21:29.400 How much is it from the association?

00:21:31.000 And how much is it just pure business?

00:21:32.360 Well, nobody really ever comes down and says, you know, fix this game or we need the Lakers

00:21:36.580 for ratings.

00:21:37.360 But what they do is they'll show you plays that happen early on in the series and show

00:21:42.540 you things to concentrate on.

00:21:45.260 It might be a player in the post is too physical.

00:21:48.120 He may be traveling before he makes his move.

00:21:51.140 And they'll show you these plays.

00:21:52.620 And they were always for the team that was down in the series to benefit them.

00:21:57.540 Got it.

00:21:57.680 So they'd show you 10 plays and eight of them were going to help the team that was down

00:22:01.680 in the series.

00:22:02.280 And they'd throw two in just to not make it so obvious.

00:22:05.540 Did the same refs ref game seven or no? 0.99

00:22:07.600 No.

00:22:08.360 Is that a protocol?

00:22:09.700 What happens is when you're in the playoffs, you'll referee game one and maybe a game four

00:22:15.960 or a game seven.

00:22:17.480 So you're never going to ref, you know, the whole series or you're going to be left out

00:22:22.500 a couple of games before you're back in.

00:22:23.560 But there's an incentive for it to go game seven so I can get another game, right?

00:22:26.940 Do you get paid per game or is it you get paid per game or it's just a set?

00:22:30.280 Per round.

00:22:30.500 But we always helped all the games went seven games because it was more assignments for

00:22:34.360 the referees.

00:22:35.100 So the more games you guys make more money, the more games it is.

00:22:38.260 Right.

00:22:38.460 You'll get paid per round.

00:22:39.300 But there's extra bonus money for the airlines.

00:22:42.500 You know, you flew, they gave you $2,500, $3,000 for an airline ticket and yet you were

00:22:47.960 flying on a free ticket.

00:22:48.880 Maybe that's an issue.

00:22:50.640 Maybe the comp is structured in a way for me to have an incentive to drag the series

00:22:55.020 versus not emotionally being connected with it on my pocket so I'm not tempted to do something.

00:22:59.740 Do you think sometimes the way the comp structure is built for refs, you are sitting here reffing

00:23:05.360 these guys that are making 20, 30, 40 million a year.

00:23:07.520 You're making 275 and you're like, wait a minute, this is insanity.

00:23:11.480 I'm on the same floor as you.

00:23:12.620 I know I'm the ref, but I'm only making this much money.

00:23:14.920 Do you think sometimes that leads to a little bit of a temptation or no?

00:23:17.980 I think it does.

00:23:18.840 I think we were paid very well.

00:23:21.820 So, you know, the salary was good and so was the, you know, extra benefits of the airline

00:23:26.740 money and the per diem money.

00:23:28.200 So the top referees were making, you know, well over $400,000 a year when you talk about

00:23:33.520 refereeing into the NBA finals.

00:23:35.340 What is it today?

00:23:36.120 Is that the same number?

00:23:36.980 I don't know if it's, you know, going up from there or not, but I'm sure it's got

00:23:42.060 to be, you know, somewhat the same or even better.

00:23:45.300 $400,000.

00:23:46.260 Interesting to be making $400,000.

00:23:48.340 So Bovetta was reffing that game, Kings-Lakers.

00:23:52.000 Now I'm a diehard Laker fan, so I'm kind of glad the way it turned out because, you know,

00:23:56.240 that was a three-peat year for them.

00:23:57.640 But still, I want a real game.

00:23:58.920 I want proper officiating as a fan because you want to know who's really winning.

00:24:02.420 You don't want to see somebody else have an influence.

00:24:04.040 Didn't Danny Crawford go to MJ's camp, the flight school that he had, and they spoke

00:24:12.080 about Bovetta?

00:24:12.900 What happened there?

00:24:14.000 Because it seems like Jordan had some issues with Bovetta as well.

00:24:17.320 Or was it Bovetta or was it a different referee he was talking about?

00:24:19.380 Well, it was Bovetta. 0.59

00:24:20.420 I think, you know, what happens is every referee has players they like and dislike.

00:24:25.780 And every player, you know, when they walk out onto the floor, looks at the referees and

00:24:30.120 knows whether they're going to get the benefit of a whistle or not.

00:24:32.980 And Jordan felt that he didn't get the benefit from Bovetta at times.

00:24:36.800 So, you know, he talked about it with Danny Crawford, who was working his summer basketball

00:24:41.880 camp and getting money.

00:24:42.940 So where Bovetta may not be giving Jordan the benefit of the cause, I can guarantee you

00:24:49.180 Danny Crawford was because he was working that summer basketball camp getting paid.

00:24:53.860 Got it.

00:24:54.040 Just like when Bennett Salvatore had Jordan's sneakers in his restaurant autographed up on

00:24:59.060 the wall.

00:24:59.560 I can guarantee you that, you know, he got the benefit of the cause when Salvatore was

00:25:03.620 on the floor.

00:25:04.260 So every referee.

00:25:05.540 Very interesting.

00:25:06.260 Yeah.

00:25:06.380 Every referee had their, you know, likes and dislikes, you know, with a player and a

00:25:11.480 coach.

00:25:11.860 So the way I see it when I look at it from the outside is just like some of these companies

00:25:16.260 nowadays have lobbyists.

00:25:17.740 You know, you see Amazon moving a part of their headquarters close to D.C. and being right

00:25:22.100 next to, you know, Virginia because that's where the politicians and the lawmakers are. 0.98

00:25:26.240 Was there a lot of that going on with players and refs as well?

00:25:29.040 Like, listen, we got to win this ref over.

00:25:31.520 We got to win that ref over. 1.00

00:25:32.860 Was there some that played that strategy a lot or was it an unspoken rule?

00:25:37.620 You know, relationships, both positive and negative, existed in the NBA with the referees

00:25:42.540 and the players, referees and the coaches and the referees and owners.

00:25:45.980 Joe Crawford, for example, hated Cuban.

00:25:48.540 You know, I read a story in the book about him turning to Mark Cuban and literally putting

00:25:53.380 his hands down his pants and playing with his junk, you know, and taunting Cuban. 0.97

00:25:59.360 He did it, you know, many times.

00:26:01.280 You're serious.

00:26:01.580 Yeah, to the point where Cuban had a camera focus on Crawford and sent the tape into the 0.79

00:26:06.520 league office.

00:26:08.120 The top guys hated Mark because they felt like he changed the structure of what we needed

00:26:13.860 to do after the game with breaking down tape.

00:26:16.640 Were Danny and Joey friends?

00:26:19.180 Buddies.

00:26:19.760 So they are buddies.

00:26:20.740 Oh, yeah.

00:26:21.300 So who Joey doesn't like, Danny doesn't like, that they were so in cahoots that if you were

00:26:25.120 bad with one, you were bad with the other?

00:26:26.420 For the most part, they were very good friends.

00:26:28.880 And the bottom line is a lot of people, like I said, didn't like Mark because of the fact

00:26:33.900 that they felt he added to our workload.

00:26:36.700 You know, a lot of guys like to go out to the bars after the game and do their thing.

00:26:40.640 You know, when Mark came in, it was after the game we were in the locker room or a hotel

00:26:45.280 room for two hours.

00:26:46.360 Yeah.

00:26:46.540 Breaking down the tape and sending reports in.

00:26:48.820 Let me ask you.

00:26:49.800 So, you know, in the business world, you know, a lot of companies run their priorities in

00:26:53.240 different ways.

00:26:53.720 For instance, there are some companies in Silicon Valley that, number one, is engineer.

00:26:57.520 You don't mess with engineers.

00:26:59.040 You give them whatever they want, spa treatment, good treatment, leave them alone.

00:27:02.780 They're going to have attitude sometimes.

00:27:04.420 They're going to be pissed off sometimes.

00:27:05.640 Do not mess with our best engineers, right?

00:27:08.020 When you look at the NBA at the top, what is the level of priority who they're loyal to?

00:27:13.640 If you have owners, if you have players, if you have fans, if you have referees, if you

00:27:20.100 have executives, if Mark is complaining to the association about Joey and Danny, from

00:27:25.180 my standpoint, I'm like, wait a minute, he's one of your 30 owners.

00:27:28.300 You know, that's a priority.

00:27:29.700 How did the association treat the most important client at the top?

00:27:32.940 They bowed down to him.

00:27:34.360 I mean, the referees were a necessary evil.

00:27:36.920 If they could have these games played without...

00:27:39.020 Even the association saw you guys as evil?

00:27:41.100 Absolutely.

00:27:41.800 There was always a...

00:27:42.660 How come you guys never got fired, though?

00:27:44.000 You know, at times they did let some referees go.

00:27:45.920 Who got fired?

00:27:46.520 Any big names that got fired?

00:27:47.780 Never a big name that got fired.

00:27:49.460 It was always, you know, recently they paid Eli Rowe $350,000 to kind of walk away from

00:27:55.240 the game.

00:27:56.160 Is he a top 10 ref in the game?

00:27:57.760 No, no.

00:27:58.340 Never anyone like that would ever be fired.

00:27:59.400 Well, that's what I'm talking about.

00:28:00.740 I mean, was the NBA...

00:28:01.660 Well, look what Joey did with Tim Duncan.

00:28:03.740 And another technical foul.

00:28:05.460 And this is one Duncan.

00:28:07.260 He's thrown Duncan out of the game.

00:28:09.740 That's the second technical, which is an automatic ejection.

00:28:14.040 Maybe Crawford felt he was showing him up by constantly laughing.

00:28:17.400 That was pathetic.

00:28:18.240 And everyone thought he wasn't coming back.

00:28:21.020 And, you know, he ended up coming back.

00:28:23.380 And everybody joked around that, you know, he had pictures with David Stern with farm animals

00:28:27.900 somewhere because they couldn't understand the fact that David Stern brought him back

00:28:32.140 again after this being another serious problem that he had on the floor.

00:28:36.900 After, you know, warning after warning after warning.

00:28:39.740 And they still brought him back.

00:28:40.740 So, who is their priority?

00:28:42.460 Who is the NBA's priority to protect?

00:28:44.580 Definitely the players.

00:28:45.920 Okay, players first.

00:28:46.860 Absolutely.

00:28:47.360 That's the product.

00:28:48.340 That's the product.

00:28:49.040 So, number one is players.

00:28:50.380 Who would you say is two?

00:28:51.680 Fans or NBA owners?

00:28:53.640 I think it would be the players, the owners, and then the fans.

00:28:57.320 I mean, you saw recently Westbrook in Utah.

00:29:00.880 I don't know if you saw...

00:29:01.600 $25,000 and the fans got permanently banned.

00:29:05.200 Why is that fan being permanently banned?

00:29:07.340 The fan didn't curse.

00:29:08.480 You know, what did that fan do that you're going to permanently ban him?

00:29:12.120 Same with Dolan in New York.

00:29:14.420 The guy says, sell the team, and now he's not allowed back to watch a game.

00:29:18.740 What do you think about that?

00:29:19.800 I think it's terrible.

00:29:21.740 You're there to have fun, scream and cheer, whether it's positive or negative.

00:29:26.880 I just, I found it was absurd that they said that these fans couldn't come back.

00:29:31.400 You think that decision is made with front office?

00:29:34.200 Meaning, did Utah's owner call front office and say, what should we do?

00:29:39.100 And the NBA said, Adams said, you better permanently ban the fan from the game?

00:29:43.980 Or do you think it's the team that made the decision without the enforcement of the association?

00:29:48.900 I think it's the team that makes those individual decisions.

00:29:50.560 Oh, interesting.

00:29:51.360 So, it's left to Utah to make that decision.

00:29:53.160 Yes, I believe it.

00:29:54.440 So, it's kind of like how the government is ran.

00:29:55.800 You leave the states to run it the way they want.

00:29:57.420 Federal makes the decision, and the states make the decisions the way they want.

00:30:00.620 Interesting.

00:30:01.520 And you don't agree that was the right decision?

00:30:03.520 I don't.

00:30:03.980 I mean, I could see if somebody screamed or cursed or said something, you know, offensive with kids and women around.

00:30:10.840 But, to me, they just, you know, they voiced an opinion.

00:30:14.480 I don't understand why, you know, that was such a major issue.

00:30:16.800 Well, did you hear what Westbrook said, that they said to him?

00:30:19.660 No, I believe that that wasn't the case, because they interviewed the guy, and they had the tape.

00:30:24.080 Don't they have enough audio to be able to hear what the fans said?

00:30:27.080 I mean, you should be able to hear all this stuff.

00:30:28.880 It's not like you can't investigate that and figure out what the fans were saying.

00:30:31.800 You'd be shocked, but my understanding.

00:30:32.940 You've got 20 people around them to interview and say, what do they say?

00:30:35.380 They have cameras up in the scoreboard that they can roll back things,

00:30:39.680 and if somebody throws something from a seat, they can zero in and find out who threw it.

00:30:44.280 So, there's cameras and audio everywhere.

00:30:47.000 So, I would think that they could definitely determine what was said.

00:30:50.960 So, when it comes down to Danny Crawford, Joey Crawford, and an owner like Cuban, 0.99

00:30:56.040 what control do owners have to say who gets to ref?

00:31:00.000 Nothing, right?

00:31:00.760 It's all association assigning who refs what game,

00:31:03.720 and the owners have no say for who refs any game.

00:31:06.900 Supposedly, they have no say, but, you know, there was two guys that were released a couple years ago,

00:31:12.260 Kevin Fair and Phil Robinson, and, you know, supposedly Mark Cuban had a lot to do with that.

00:31:18.260 They were in the league 15, 16, 17 years, weren't refereeing in the playoffs,

00:31:22.460 and, you know, he voiced his opinion.

00:31:24.680 Why are we paying somebody so much money when he's not, they're not talented enough to be a,

00:31:29.320 so they ended up getting rid of him.

00:31:30.940 I'm sorry.

00:31:31.500 I mean, if I am Adam Silver or David Stern,

00:31:34.920 who would you say in the NBA is as involved as an owner as Mark Cuban is?

00:31:40.540 Honestly.

00:31:41.320 Here's what I mean by it.

00:31:42.300 He's owned the Mavs since, what, I don't know, 92, 93, 90, I don't know the exact year.

00:31:47.980 I want to say 92, I think, when he bought them, give or take, when he bought the Mavs.

00:31:52.340 So, after he purchases the Mavs, how many NBA owners do you think have attended their team games,

00:32:00.240 as many as Mark Cuban has?

00:32:02.320 How many NBA owners?

00:32:03.520 I don't think anybody.

00:32:04.300 No, but I think they started to because once he started to do it, they—

00:32:07.920 But that's my point.

00:32:08.540 What I'm trying to say is if I'm the association, I want more Cuban owners.

00:32:13.560 I want owners that are as involved as him.

00:32:15.840 I don't want a Dolan.

00:32:17.160 I want a Cuban because he cares.

00:32:19.540 He's on the—that's why he's involved emotionally to it.

00:32:22.500 And so a Mark Cuban, believe it or not, recruits more guys like me to one day want to own a team where Dolan doesn't.

00:32:29.800 Mark Cuban's a guy that says, you know what?

00:32:31.920 Hey, one day I'd like to own a team like Mark.

00:32:34.800 Hey, one day I'd like to own a team.

00:32:36.040 Like maybe Mark said, one day I want to be as a great owner as Jerry Buss.

00:32:39.640 Because Jerry Buss was the best owner in the history of the NBA.

00:32:42.560 33 seasons, you win 10 championships, 10 out of 30.

00:32:45.760 That's a pretty solid run rate you have.

00:32:47.460 And now your daughter's running. 0.99

00:32:48.420 Maybe a different story with Jim and Jeannie.

00:32:50.360 But, yeah, when I see that, I'm like, maybe you ought to listen when a couple of these referees.

00:32:54.560 So do you think refs should get fired if you notice a trend that they're taking sides? 0.91

00:33:00.920 Like, do you think refs ought to be fired and not be protected by union, even the best ones?

00:33:04.720 You know, I think a ref should be fired if his percentages are low and they're tracking every call every referee makes.

00:33:12.860 And they're saying that, you know, every referee has a percentage attached to their name.

00:33:18.240 Yeah.

00:33:18.440 So they should get rid of the bottom 5% every year and bring in somebody else because the rules are clear cut. 0.99

00:33:25.040 They're in black and white.

00:33:25.880 Like, they give you tape, they show you what to call, and they put it out there for you.

00:33:30.380 And if you're not making, you're not doing the job, or if you have a sales rep that's not selling the product, how long are you going to keep that, you know, sales rep?

00:33:37.700 You're going to get rid of them, and that's what they should do with the referees. 0.99

00:33:39.880 If they're not doing their job, they should be released.

00:33:42.600 Yeah.

00:33:42.820 I mean, if you want me to compete in a marketplace and you're doing it based on a rule book, we're going to enforce the rule book.

00:33:47.520 And the part that gets frustrating is when you have an edge over me because you've got seven referees that are on your side, and they're manipulating the game.

00:33:55.760 They control the game, and they hate me because I'm a vocal owner because I show up and I care about my business, and you're going to throw me under the bus like a Joey Crawford, one out of 15.

00:34:04.440 Joey or Danny?

00:34:05.080 I think it's Danny's the one that's one out of 15 playoffs, Mavs record.

00:34:08.780 I don't know.

00:34:09.120 It turns me off as an owner knowing I—because whoever buys a sports team has gone through capitalism, period.

00:34:16.680 Or somebody in their family made the money.

00:34:18.600 Like Dolan, his family made the money.

00:34:20.140 He got the money.

00:34:21.220 But they have gone through the marketplace.

00:34:23.300 And in the marketplace, you play with the rules.

00:34:25.040 And when you play with the rules, if the rules are not fair, you're going to compete.

00:34:28.660 You have to figure out what you can do and pivot and all this other stuff.

00:34:31.800 So when you go into a league that there's additional games and manipulation, it's a little bit frustrating for an owner.

00:34:37.460 So I can fully understand where he's coming from.

00:34:39.660 Sure, because you go into it, and you want to get the best coach.

00:34:41.860 You want to get the best GM to build your team based on the rules,

00:34:46.220 on how they're written in the rule book.

00:34:47.880 And that, at times, just isn't something that's happening.

00:34:50.900 How many times do you see coaches being fired after having one bad season, two bad seasons?

00:34:54.860 They're gone.

00:34:55.340 First person you fire is who?

00:34:56.640 The coach.

00:34:57.240 It's an easy person to blame.

00:34:59.040 This guy stuck with Carlisle for how many years now?

00:35:01.460 A long time.

00:35:02.220 Right.

00:35:02.580 A long time.

00:35:03.860 And there's been some times where he could have made the decision because everybody said,

00:35:06.720 he should get rid of him, change it up, bring somebody else.

00:35:09.280 And you kind of see the discipline of the fact that he sticks with people.

00:35:12.200 He's a great owner.

00:35:12.720 Anyway, that's a complete different conversation.

00:35:15.580 You know, when did it happen for you, the whole story of you all of a sudden saying,

00:35:19.960 look, there's a gambling opportunity here.

00:35:22.500 What was that process when you got introduced to the sheep, Batista?

00:35:26.280 And maybe walk us through that part.

00:35:29.240 You know, what happened was is I love the golf.

00:35:31.640 So I'm golfing at country clubs, starting to play in big money golf matches.

00:35:35.340 After golf matches, jumping in the car and heading to a casino, sitting at a blackjack table,

00:35:41.160 the excitement's there with all your buddies from the country club.

00:35:44.880 And it just became a situation for me where I loved it.

00:35:48.860 I was playing cards in my basement.

00:35:50.320 I had a big poker table in the basement.

00:35:52.320 And every day of my life, I was, you know, golfing.

00:35:55.680 I was playing cards.

00:35:56.820 I was betting on games, college, football, college basketball.

00:36:01.540 And it just escalated to, you know, my one buddy having the Philadelphia Daily News with him

00:36:06.880 asking me to pick a couple games for him in the NBA.

00:36:09.640 I had just come from home, and I looked at the referee list of who was refereeing the games.

00:36:16.140 I saw a couple of the guys somewhere.

00:36:18.600 Maybe it was, you know, an example that you were using with Danny Crawford had a problem

00:36:22.320 with the Mavs.

00:36:24.160 And I rattled off three games to him real quick based on who was refereeing, and I went 3-0.

00:36:29.040 And he calls me up the next day and he goes, man, was it that easy?

00:36:33.140 And I was like, yeah.

00:36:35.100 And not thinking really much about it.

00:36:37.120 And then it just kind of snowballed.

00:36:38.780 We started betting on NBA games.

00:36:40.820 And then, you know, when things happened, like the thing with Kobe Bryant, and I knew

00:36:44.860 he was going to start going to the line because they were complaining with the league office

00:36:49.660 and the referees were being told that these plays were being missed, that, you know, I

00:36:54.520 started passing along information like that to them when I was officiating some of the

00:36:58.220 games.

00:36:58.680 So, you know, I got up to a line and then I just jumped over it and I shouldn't have been

00:37:03.360 doing it.

00:37:03.820 And when you did, was it the moment, did you know, like, the point of no return, like,

00:37:08.620 you knew it was like, I am too deep?

00:37:11.240 Was it the first time we were like, I'm too deep?

00:37:13.200 Or no, you didn't think you were too deep?

00:37:14.640 No, I didn't think I was too deep.

00:37:15.780 Then it got to the point where, you know, I was doing it and I said to my buddy, you

00:37:19.820 know, listen, we got to stop this.

00:37:20.960 This isn't right.

00:37:21.560 And we stopped.

00:37:22.220 Then we just floated back into doing it and then we stopped for good.

00:37:26.540 And what I didn't know was that this guy was passing this information along to the sheep

00:37:33.060 and to another guy that was associated with big gamblers and they were making millions

00:37:38.540 of dollars on these games.

00:37:40.060 So when we stopped doing it and the sheep and all his people weren't getting the plays 1.00

00:37:44.700 anymore, I went into Philadelphia for a game and Tommy Martino, who was a high school buddy

00:37:50.440 of mine, you know, called me up and said, hey, listen, I'm going to come down and see

00:37:54.060 you.

00:37:54.600 And, you know, they came down and they picked me up and in the car was James Batista.

00:38:00.340 And he told me that, you know, he was getting the plays for, you know, years from Jack and

00:38:06.320 Cannon and they were making millions of dollars on it and that he needed to get, continue to

00:38:11.200 get those plays.

00:38:12.280 And if not, you know, he was going to expose me to the NBA or have somebody visit my wife

00:38:17.020 or kids in Florida.

00:38:18.220 And it was a flat out, flat out.

00:38:20.940 So it was something that, you know, we set it up and I was to give Martino the plays and

00:38:25.500 Martino relayed them to Batista.

00:38:27.160 And they were making millions of dollars and it was hurt over a Gambino wiretack. 0.94

00:38:33.220 How did you feel in that moment when that statement was made?

00:38:35.620 Like, what was your immediate reaction or was there an immediate, like, did you startle?

00:38:39.740 Sick because, you know, I'm screwed.

00:38:42.500 I can't all of a sudden call somebody up and say, hey, listen, this is what I've been doing

00:38:46.120 for the last three years.

00:38:47.280 Can you just let me go and I won't do it anymore and keep my job?

00:38:51.580 I knew I was screwed.

00:38:52.800 Either way, I was done.

00:38:53.860 I was hoping at the end of the basketball season, after giving them the picks, that

00:38:58.240 it was going to be over and we're never going to do it again.

00:39:01.060 But, you know, I was highly mistaken.

00:39:02.500 They were never going to, you know, as the FBI agents say, release the golden goose.

00:39:07.160 You're, you know, putting too many, you know, dollars in their pockets for them to just stop.

00:39:12.860 So now this continues post that statement for how long?

00:39:17.200 So he makes that statement to you, if you don't continue, we're going to have to pay a visit.

00:39:21.220 I believe it was December 22nd and it went on for the next three or four months to where

00:39:25.480 they were really banging the games and the lines were going from 10 points up to 14 or

00:39:30.780 15 points because they were just betting millions and millions of dollars on it.

00:39:34.520 And the FBI agents said normally they wouldn't touch a gambling case, but it was putting so

00:39:39.480 much money into the coffers of, you know, the crime families that, you know, that's why

00:39:44.200 they got involved.

00:39:45.040 This is a documented or off the meaning?

00:39:47.440 Is it bookies or is it, you know, online, you know, gambling, Vegas type of stuff?

00:39:53.300 How were they doing it for not to be tracked or to be tracked?

00:39:56.520 I think they were doing it everywhere.

00:39:58.440 I think Batista was so strung out on drugs and, you know, owed so many people so much

00:40:03.960 money that he was getting down whoever would take his action.

00:40:07.800 So I think that they were doing it everywhere.

00:40:09.280 Even documented, meaning it doesn't matter if it was Vegas, bookies, I'm going through

00:40:13.720 everybody.

00:40:14.380 And the word on the street now is, is that the people actually in Vegas, you know, knew

00:40:20.640 that was going on and they were piggybacking on the bets also.

00:40:23.520 So the red flags were going up, but they were just ignoring them on purpose because they

00:40:28.540 were, they were also making money.

00:40:30.180 Had he already dropped your name where he had credibility with the bets he was making or

00:40:35.000 no?

00:40:35.740 No, not at that point.

00:40:36.620 And I think that, you know, it was, you know, want to keep it a secret, not expose it and

00:40:40.340 then maximize it to the, to the best that you could do.

00:40:43.260 I think as he got more strung out on drugs and he started losing money, betting on other

00:40:48.240 things, the word out now is that, you know, he, he lost $7 million of people's money and

00:40:54.880 they were coming after him.

00:40:55.900 And he said, well, well, wait a minute.

00:40:57.680 You know, I got a golden goose and his name's Tim Donaghy.

00:41:00.360 So back off.

00:41:02.280 I'm going to get you your, your money back.

00:41:03.860 Just be patient.

00:41:05.160 Got it.

00:41:05.660 What was the biggest bet they were, they were making?

00:41:07.820 Did you know the numbers?

00:41:08.740 Were they telling you or not really?

00:41:10.160 No, they weren't telling me, but, but you know, the, the, the agent said they were betting

00:41:13.640 millions of dollars a game.

00:41:15.040 What were you making per, uh, per, per victory?

00:41:17.880 I was getting $2,000, uh, a game that won.

00:41:21.520 Per?

00:41:22.080 Cash.

00:41:22.920 Cash.

00:41:23.200 And when it was happening where you're like, oh my gosh, this is an additional source of

00:41:25.980 income.

00:41:26.300 I mean, I can really double down with this.

00:41:28.760 Sure.

00:41:29.040 Because, you know, I, I, I always like to have a big wad of money in my pocket to hit the casinos,

00:41:33.840 to, to golf with, you know, uh, you know, standing over a putt, you know, sometimes we were betting

00:41:39.740 $500, $1,000.

00:41:41.040 You know, you're going to make that putt.

00:41:42.000 I mean, it was just, uh, out of control, but I loved it.

00:41:44.400 I loved the excitement of it.

00:41:45.720 So what role did Jack play?

00:41:47.640 Was, was Jack pre, uh, uh, the sheep or was he post?

00:41:52.200 No, Jack was pre the sheep and, and Jack was just my, my good buddy, great guy.

00:41:56.740 Uh, and.

00:41:57.720 He's, well, he was what, six, five.

00:41:59.100 He actually, he played or something like that.

00:42:00.820 Played at St. Joe's, uh, great athlete and, uh, you know, a, a super guy and, you know,

00:42:05.640 great family guy.

00:42:07.100 And, you know, it just, uh, was a situation where, you know, he was to put the bets in

00:42:12.280 and keep my name out of it.

00:42:13.800 But what was happening is, you know, the guy that he was putting the bets in was, you

00:42:18.320 know, taking that information and knowing that we were buddies and, and using that information

00:42:23.580 and passing along to people.

00:42:25.800 Got it.

00:42:26.600 When's the last time you spoke to Jimmy?

00:42:29.400 Jimmy Batista?

00:42:30.700 Yeah.

00:42:31.720 Uh, he owes me money for restitution that I paid.

00:42:35.340 So from time to time, I have to send him a text message.

00:42:38.420 It says, you know, where's the check?

00:42:40.460 Seriously.

00:42:40.960 Yeah.

00:42:41.580 And so you have, there's a relationship.

00:42:43.040 It's somewhat of a relationship or, you know, an email that I'll have to send to his attorney

00:42:48.240 and him, you know, he, he's not a, uh, you know, a friend of mine, uh, in any way, shape

00:42:53.480 or form, but due to the fact that he, you know, owes me that money, there's some, you

00:42:57.840 know, conversation from time to time.

00:42:59.220 What, what is the story about Schmaga?

00:43:00.960 You guys, you guys use this phrase Schmaga like a kid from school and what, what was that

00:43:05.220 all about?

00:43:05.620 The code?

00:43:06.800 Yeah.

00:43:07.080 Schmaga was, uh, you know, it was a kid from Holy Cross that was, uh, mentally and physically

00:43:12.920 handicapped and the Martino family, Tommy, uh, you know, really cared for this kid.

00:43:17.840 He really didn't have any family members and they took him in as if he was, you know, their

00:43:22.280 own son for years.

00:43:24.440 And, uh, we all met him.

00:43:25.840 We all hung out with him.

00:43:27.080 We take him out to eat and he was just kind of a part of our family, so to speak, you know,

00:43:31.500 and, uh, you know, the Martinos were, you know, gracious and everything that they, they

00:43:37.120 did for, for that kid.

00:43:38.480 And, uh, we, we said that when we needed a name for a game where it was just a, uh, uh,

00:43:44.460 you know, can't lose situation.

00:43:46.140 And I think Tommy said, you know, well, let's call it a Schmaga because that was, uh, Joey's 1.00

00:43:51.080 nickname, Schmaga.

00:43:52.140 So that's, that's what that was.

00:43:53.700 That meant double or triple the bet that you're making.

00:43:55.720 Anything you could do.

00:43:56.200 Yeah.

00:43:57.020 And, uh, uh, what, what I, based on what I hear about Tommy, Tommy was, uh, Tommy was

00:44:02.900 what?

00:44:03.200 5'4", but he was great with the ladies. 0.77

00:44:05.520 People liked him.

00:44:06.440 They respected him.

00:44:07.340 He was strong.

00:44:08.560 He'd be pissed off if he heard you say he's 5'5".

00:44:11.140 He's 5'5".

00:44:11.960 My apologies, Tommy, if you're watching this.

00:44:13.840 He's, uh, he, uh...

00:44:15.240 Tommy, I heard good things for what I've heard from what people said about you.

00:44:18.060 He was, uh, a good looking kid, uh, very likable kid, uh, you know, and, and...

00:44:23.840 He walked like he's seven feet tall.

00:44:25.600 He had swagger.

00:44:26.200 Every girl loved him.

00:44:27.100 He was funny as could be.

00:44:28.760 I think we talked about it earlier.

00:44:30.540 His, his cousin, Paulie Martino, a venture capitalist who has a lot of money, you know,

00:44:35.820 is, is doing a film based on his, uh, life called Inside Game.

00:44:39.780 And I think it's, I haven't seen it yet.

00:44:41.480 I'm going to see it next week, but I think it's like a cross between Goodfellas and The

00:44:44.700 Hangover.

00:44:45.460 So...

00:44:45.820 Get out of here.

00:44:46.360 I think it's, uh...

00:44:47.120 So they're going to highlight the part about refereeing as well?

00:44:50.480 I think they're definitely going to touch on that, but I think it's mostly, uh, you know,

00:44:54.020 like I said, I haven't seen it yet about him and, and he was a funny kid.

00:44:56.900 So, uh, I think it'd probably be a funny movie.

00:44:59.020 Are you participating in like, uh, they bring, you know, as a consultant to do anything with

00:45:02.940 it?

00:45:03.240 Uh, I, I may, uh, you know, uh, take a look at it and, and see, make the decision after

00:45:07.840 that and, and help them with some marketing on it.

00:45:10.340 It's interesting.

00:45:11.020 You know, when you, when you grow up in different cities, every city has its own culture.

00:45:15.720 Every city.

00:45:16.240 I mean, I grew up in, uh, I lived in Tehran 10 years, right?

00:45:19.340 It's a different cult.

00:45:20.120 When I explain people what it's like growing up in Tehran and people say, come on, are you

00:45:23.760 out of your mind?

00:45:24.220 Are you freaking kidding me?

00:45:24.980 I don't believe that.

00:45:25.580 That's, that's Tehran. 0.97

00:45:26.900 You know, I lived in Germany in a city called Erlangen, right outside of Nuremberg.

00:45:30.360 It was a, uh, refugee camp.

00:45:32.560 So the culture growing up, there's a complete different thing.

00:45:34.460 You see different things.

00:45:35.260 I grew up in Glendale, California, which is like the, the capital of Armenians around

00:45:40.820 the world.

00:45:41.320 If you live in Glendale, there's more Armenians in Glendale than, you know, anywhere else except 1.00

00:45:45.480 for Armenia.

00:45:46.640 So every city has its own culture.

00:45:48.320 I've lived in Kentucky, Tennessee, all over the place.

00:45:50.780 What is it like?

00:45:51.860 You know, the, the culture of Philadelphia and sports, because, you know, almost everybody

00:45:57.540 I talk to that's from Philadelphia, when it comes down to sports, they talk about it

00:46:01.520 like it's religion.

00:46:02.240 I would put Philadelphia first.

00:46:03.740 I'd put Boston two, New York three is the way I put.

00:46:06.820 What makes Philadelphia this special when it comes down to sports?

00:46:10.460 Just passionate with their sports teams.

00:46:12.860 It's a situation where Sunday at one o'clock, everyone's in front of the TV waiting for the

00:46:17.640 Eagles to come on.

00:46:18.780 And I'll never forget, you know, I was dating a girl one time that was, you know, not really

00:46:24.160 a big sports fan.

00:46:25.080 And I'm at her house one o'clock and I'm like, you know, where's your dad?

00:46:28.440 Why aren't the Eagles, you know, what's going on here?

00:46:31.040 And it, it just was very rare that, you know, you're not a big, passionate Eagles, Flyers,

00:46:37.680 Phillies fan.

00:46:38.220 And, you know, it comes down to the, it's what everybody revolves around, you know, the

00:46:42.040 city doing well with their sports teams.

00:46:44.240 One of the questions I want to get into is the part about being asked that you fixed the

00:46:49.200 game.

00:46:49.480 And you're saying you didn't fix the game.

00:46:51.140 They're saying you fixed the game.

00:46:52.200 And obviously there was an investigation done with the FBI, Phil Scalia, I want to say the

00:46:57.360 last name.

00:46:57.980 Scala.

00:46:58.460 Scala.

00:46:58.900 Yeah.

00:46:59.140 And some other names that were involved in it.

00:47:01.040 And I want to hear your part.

00:47:02.920 What is the difference between fixing and gambling?

00:47:06.060 So you were convicted specifically for gambling, right?

00:47:10.380 You were not convicted for anything to do with fixing the game.

00:47:13.840 Right.

00:47:14.040 I think what the big misconception is, is people think that I was out there calling fouls

00:47:19.680 on Shaq and Kobe and LeBron and putting them to the bench to where I was betting on the

00:47:24.320 other team and winning.

00:47:25.600 You know, that wasn't the situation.

00:47:26.920 The situation was I was taking information of what the league office wanted to be called

00:47:31.680 in those games and who was going to be put at an advantage or a disadvantage or relationships

00:47:36.440 that existed with referees and owners or, or certain players.

00:47:40.740 Like you said, there was a time where Danny Crawford was one in 15 when he was refereeing

00:47:46.460 the Dallas Mavericks games.

00:47:47.840 There were times where I knew, you know, Crawford was going to stick it to a certain

00:47:51.640 team because he had problems with them.

00:47:53.560 So with that information, you know, that's what I did and, and use that information.

00:47:58.660 It wasn't like I was going out using the whistle on a nightly basis to make sure, you

00:48:03.400 know, the bets won.

00:48:04.720 Okay.

00:48:04.980 So, but you also say that most referees gamble in the NBA.

00:48:09.400 Would you agree with that?

00:48:10.420 Would you say that you've made that statement?

00:48:12.200 Yes.

00:48:12.640 Most referees gamble in the NBA.

00:48:14.000 Okay.

00:48:14.180 When you say that, what are you saying?

00:48:15.240 Are you saying like thousand dollar games, $500 games, $5,000 games?

00:48:19.780 What do you mean when you say they gamble?

00:48:21.740 What I meant by when they gamble is, you know, David Stern made the famous comment when,

00:48:26.580 when this story went down, I was a rogue referee.

00:48:29.360 2007.

00:48:30.040 Yeah.

00:48:30.160 Legal gambling will cost you your job because it was in our contract.

00:48:33.480 You couldn't bet.

00:48:34.120 And illegal gambling will cost you your freedom.

00:48:36.320 And he didn't realize at that time that, you know, probably 55 out of 58 NBA referees

00:48:42.280 gambled, whether it was on the golf course, you know, we all went to the casinos, we went

00:48:46.140 to the racetrack.

00:48:47.700 You know, we did, a lot of us gambled on football games, even amongst each other.

00:48:51.800 So I think he really had to backtrack and, and realize that, you know, what he said was

00:48:57.560 wrong, but he couldn't fire 55 out of 58 referees because they, they gambled, even though that's

00:49:03.920 what he said.

00:49:04.500 Let's look at a couple of the numbers, because I know based on what I see is the NBA investigated

00:49:09.200 17 games in the 06 season, I believe.

00:49:12.500 Right.

00:49:12.680 And out of the 17 games, if I remember this correctly, only one came where you called two

00:49:18.540 offensive fouls on Collins.

00:49:20.960 I'm sure you know this because you read it yourself and you're seeing it yourself.

00:49:24.500 And then ESPN, the magazine went and investigated 40 games of that season.

00:49:29.180 And I think the breakdown on the 40 games is 10 was a blowout.

00:49:31.960 And then 23 out of 30, the calls favored the people and the teams that you bet on, or you,

00:49:40.440 you said that we're going to win.

00:49:41.940 So that's 23 out of 30 that favored the calls.

00:49:45.040 Three of them went against and four was, you know, it is, it is what it is.

00:49:51.980 But when you look at those rates, you know, they came back with the numbers saying that's

00:49:56.240 like 6,155 to one, chances of that happening.

00:49:59.680 And so ESPN and magazine's claim is, no, he did fix the game.

00:50:04.080 He was pulling the calls in a direction where the people that were betting would favor them.

00:50:09.440 What do you say to that when that number comes back?

00:50:11.760 I mean, how do you process that yourself when you see that?

00:50:14.460 Well, first of all, I don't know that those numbers are true, but just let's say that

00:50:17.720 they are for the argument's sake.

00:50:19.980 The FBI and the NBA both did a investigation going through every tape.

00:50:25.300 Trust me, if the prosecutors could have charged me with fixing games, they would have done

00:50:29.020 it.

00:50:29.600 They, you know, wanted me to go to jail for a long time.

00:50:32.120 Do you think so, though?

00:50:33.180 Absolutely.

00:50:33.860 Tell me why, though.

00:50:34.760 Why do you say that?

00:50:35.860 Because my brain goes to a different place.

00:50:37.780 Because when I was being questioned about, they asked me, you know, a number of times.

00:50:42.580 They were going over the tapes.

00:50:43.700 And I think at the end of it, when they stood up in court and said that, you know, a lot

00:50:49.600 of my allegations didn't hold water in order to support the NBA, when I was saying that

00:50:55.140 certain referees were doing certain things in a playoff series, you know, they said that

00:51:01.760 the allegations didn't hold water.

00:51:03.220 I just think if the prosecution had any say in it, and the NBA, that I would have went

00:51:08.480 to jail for a long time.

00:51:09.540 I think the FBI agents who did the investigation realized that I was telling the truth at every

00:51:14.400 turn.

00:51:14.720 And that's why Phil Scala wrote the foreword for the book.

00:51:17.800 You think David Stern wanted you to go to prison for life?

00:51:21.000 I think that he wanted me to definitely disappear.

00:51:23.060 Because I think that, you know, when my attorney, John Laurel, filed a lot of the motions in court

00:51:28.700 and started giving certain examples, it caused a lot of problems for the NBA.

00:51:32.960 So I think at some point he realized that, you know, I was going to start to talk.

00:51:37.140 Yeah.

00:51:37.360 So I'm seeing it from a different standpoint.

00:51:38.920 And help me process this and tell me, you know, if you agree or disagree.

00:51:43.600 The way I see it is, you know, what happened with the NFL when a movie came out regarding

00:51:49.020 concussions with Will Smith.

00:51:50.940 And then they showed data afterwards, numbers and families with household income above $150,000

00:51:58.000 started pushing their kids away from playing football because they don't want their kids

00:52:01.580 to have concussion.

00:52:02.540 This is really making sense.

00:52:03.760 This is really taking place.

00:52:05.160 If it did come out that you did fix the game, if it did, wouldn't that have hurt NBA's credibility

00:52:12.700 and reputation if there is a referee that did fix the game?

00:52:17.280 Wouldn't that kind of hurt David Stern?

00:52:18.900 Absolutely.

00:52:19.380 Because it's on his watch and he's supposedly monitoring this whole thing.

00:52:23.640 So, yeah, it would have been an embarrassment and a black eye. 0.74

00:52:26.700 Absolutely.

00:52:27.060 And then that would have hurt the game, fans, numbers, owners, volume, advertising.

00:52:33.180 I mean, it would have hit me.

00:52:34.360 There was a, because at that time he was running an organization.

00:52:36.340 He was saying what?

00:52:36.940 When you're running a company that's a $4 billion franchise, you have to look at the

00:52:40.320 profits, the numbers, you know, you have clients, you have customers, you have owners.

00:52:43.680 So for me, it almost goes back to the situation where you're saying, you know, Jordan would

00:52:48.700 give autographed shoes to that one ref and he puts it in his restaurant or such and such

00:52:52.820 person has lobbying with the refs to build a relationship.

00:52:56.820 Wouldn't a David Stern be lobbying at the top with people in the government to kind of,

00:53:03.380 hey, let this one go.

00:53:04.900 We'll control it from here.

00:53:06.220 We don't want a lot of attention for this.

00:53:07.660 The game is doing good.

00:53:08.420 The league is doing good.

00:53:09.780 Everyone benefits from this.

00:53:11.280 Let's just make sure this guy goes to and does his time 15 months and we'll leave him

00:53:16.640 alone.

00:53:17.060 He leaves us alone.

00:53:17.940 He can't come back to the league.

00:53:19.120 We can't.

00:53:19.740 Wouldn't there be a possibility of a conversation like that with Stern?

00:53:23.660 There was.

00:53:24.480 In fact, John Laura called the league office and said, hey, listen, we would like to come

00:53:28.140 in and speak with you and go over, you know, what Tim early on, what Tim actually did.

00:53:32.960 You know, I wanted to help them and show the cracks in their, you know, cement, so to speak,

00:53:38.940 and they didn't entertain it.

00:53:40.140 And then afterwards, you know, he said a lot of things and took my, you know, retirement

00:53:46.440 money away from me and did a lot of things with the restitution that, you know, made it,

00:53:51.220 you know, difficult for me to survive.

00:53:52.840 Made it difficult for you to survive, but did it hurt the NBA brand?

00:53:56.800 Because if I own a team, I'm competing against 20, how many NBA teams are there right now?

00:54:01.140 Is it 30 or 31?

00:54:02.020 It's something like that, right?

00:54:02.900 Right, yeah.

00:54:03.320 I'm competing against 30 other teams.

00:54:05.300 Okay.

00:54:06.300 But if I'm Stern, I'm competing with three other teams.

00:54:10.140 Which is who?

00:54:11.380 MLB, NFL, NHL.

00:54:13.600 Right.

00:54:14.080 NHL is a niche product.

00:54:15.520 It's a different kind of a sport, right?

00:54:17.600 But I am competing against NFL.

00:54:19.520 Maybe not MLB because MLB is different as well.

00:54:22.100 And I'm trying to make sure NBA becomes what?

00:54:24.040 Number one, right?

00:54:24.920 Sure.

00:54:25.020 So, and at that time, you know, everybody knows what happened with baseball in the 90s

00:54:30.900 with the strike and all this other stuff.

00:54:32.620 And I don't know when I watch this.

00:54:35.740 Like when I watch it saying, okay, from what you tell me, if I'm an attorney, if I'm a jury,

00:54:40.480 if I'm a judge, if I'm whatever I'm doing, I'm sitting there saying, okay, if you're getting

00:54:44.000 two grand a pop, if you call a couple calls here and there, you may say, Pat, I'm telling

00:54:48.100 you, I didn't do it.

00:54:49.800 Maybe emotionally you're vested on the 23 out of 30 games.

00:54:52.720 Let's say that's true.

00:54:54.380 I definitely don't want that to be public if I'm Stern because that's going to hurt the

00:54:58.700 league.

00:54:59.300 So then it makes me go back and look at and say, well, if that is the case, how many of

00:55:05.260 the owners are sitting there and saying, look, and if this is happening, because right

00:55:07.480 now, look who's pissed off today, this season, Paul George.

00:55:09.740 You heard Paul George just came out.

00:55:10.840 He didn't even stop.

00:55:12.140 Here's a guy that could potentially win the MVP this season.

00:55:14.700 Realistically, LeBron's out.

00:55:16.300 Harden's probably not going to win it this year.

00:55:17.760 Westbrook's probably not going to win it this year.

00:55:19.200 Anthony Davis is definitely not going to win it.

00:55:20.940 It's probably Giannis.

00:55:22.420 He's not happy.

00:55:23.260 LeBron's not happy.

00:55:24.280 Steve Kerr's not happy.

00:55:25.540 Let's say LeBron's typically not happy.

00:55:27.360 He's the best.

00:55:28.020 He can not be happy.

00:55:29.180 He is who he is.

00:55:30.960 But some of these complaints they're making, you're sitting there watching and saying,

00:55:34.500 look, man, I mean, it just, is there some of it going on?

00:55:38.080 So my question for you would be, do you think there's any fixing of the game going on today

00:55:43.560 with any of the referees?

00:55:44.920 I know you're an outsider now looking and you're not in the circle anymore.

00:55:48.040 I'm sure none of these referees can talk to you because you're probably the anti-you-know-what.

00:55:53.080 You better not be talking to, you know, yourself or else.

00:55:56.720 I would just assume most industries do it that way.

00:55:58.860 If somebody is a former FBI guy that went, you know, whatever rogue, you can't talk to

00:56:03.320 that guy because if you do, you're going to lose your job with us because we don't trust

00:56:05.920 you.

00:56:06.080 You're talking to an outsider, loose lips. 0.83

00:56:07.640 Let's just say if I'm thinking that, do you think there's anybody fixing the game today?

00:56:12.680 I don't think they're fixing games, but I think there's so much subjectivity still in

00:56:16.880 the game.

00:56:17.300 I think there's situations where relationships are positive and negative, and I think it

00:56:22.940 spills out onto the floor.

00:56:25.160 Chris Paul and Scott Foster just got into it recently, and, you know, I think that when

00:56:30.440 Foster has the opportunity, he's going to continue to stick it to them.

00:56:34.180 Is that okay, though?

00:56:35.380 It's okay because the league allows it to continue to happen.

00:56:38.400 So how do you regulate that?

00:56:40.080 You know how NFL, here's what I like about what the NFL has done, okay, and you know where

00:56:43.860 I'm going with this one.

00:56:44.840 There's some of the stuff that they have, you can go back through the red flag and, you

00:56:49.740 know, we're going to review this, or we're going to do that, and we're going to do

00:56:52.100 that, why can't they kind of go a little bit more into that?

00:56:55.940 Is it because it's going to slow down the game?

00:56:57.580 Is it going to lengthen the game?

00:56:58.900 I think that's where it's heading, and I think it has to be done.

00:57:01.400 If you look at officiating in all the major sports, name me one hockey referee.

00:57:06.880 Name me one, you know, NFL back judge.

00:57:11.840 You can't do it.

00:57:12.760 The NBA is the only league that you can continually name the referees because there's always,

00:57:19.020 you know, they have to hire more referees.

00:57:22.100 You can spread the games out so that the players don't see the same referees on a continuous

00:57:26.220 basis.

00:57:26.740 Yeah, you lose credibility.

00:57:27.880 Look at, honestly, I can't stand watching boxing at all.

00:57:31.540 You know, you saw it again with Triple G, the first fight versus Canelo.

00:57:35.220 Oh, this referee scored it seven, whatever the score was, five, I don't know what, four

00:57:40.240 to eight or five to seven the way they scored it, and you lose trust.

00:57:45.280 I watch UFC because at least UFC, you know who's going to be winning it.

00:57:48.340 There's some credibility, even though a big personality guy like Dana White is running

00:57:53.200 it, which you know there's some politics involved with him because he's a power guy.

00:57:56.920 You have to listen to the way he runs the show.

00:57:58.780 He built an empire.

00:58:00.080 I still trust the results of UFC way more than I do basketball.

00:58:04.820 And even like for me, a question for you, I'm curious to know what you said about this

00:58:08.180 because I saw you the other day, you were standing by the computer and TV and you were

00:58:13.040 talking about what happened.

00:58:13.740 I think it was a Dwayne Waite call or some game it was that you were saying.

00:58:17.060 This one, it should have been, it was a Miami game, I think it was.

00:58:19.500 I don't know which one it was, but I just saw it.

00:58:21.980 The Golden State Warriors, they're facing Cavs, okay?

00:58:25.400 And it's the season where they went 73-9 and the whole Draymond Green situation that took

00:58:29.480 place.

00:58:30.420 When you watch that, okay, they call the foul.

00:58:32.760 I get it.

00:58:33.780 Let's say fouls there.

00:58:34.700 Technical foul, fine.

00:58:35.540 Do you think a one-game suspension is granted for something like that for Draymond?

00:58:41.760 Like why did they suspend him for a game in the finals?

00:58:44.780 I think it depends on who was up and down in the series.

00:58:47.400 I think if Golden State would have been down in the series, there would have been no suspension.

00:58:53.320 But, you know, if they're up in the series, there's a suspension.

00:58:56.020 Why?

00:58:56.360 Because it takes a good player away off the floor and it allows for the series to go on

00:59:02.060 a little bit further.

00:59:02.680 It allows for Cleveland to win a game.

00:59:05.540 You know, I just think it's a situation where even Stu Jackson, who used to have Vandaway's

00:59:11.140 job, would say when he went to suspend somebody, especially during the playoffs, David Stern

00:59:16.540 would call him up screaming and yelling.

00:59:18.240 And it all depended on what the situation was with the series at the time.

00:59:22.260 So it was so much, you know, subjectivity on what the circumstance was.

00:59:27.080 But that's too much politics.

00:59:28.940 That is too much politics.

00:59:30.240 And it questions the integrity of the game.

00:59:32.560 And that's why they're always going to have problems until they figure out a way.

00:59:35.300 How do you fix that, though?

00:59:36.100 Because that's a no, because that's a four-peat.

00:59:38.160 That's not a three-peat.

00:59:38.980 And no one's done a four-peat in a long time since, what, Celtics?

00:59:41.220 I think the only team that a four-peat was, what, the Celtics?

00:59:43.900 So Golden State's building an empire.

00:59:45.120 There's a big difference between a two-peat and a four-peat.

00:59:48.060 And they don't even have a three-peat, depending on if they win this year, which they have a lot

00:59:51.000 of locker room issues.

00:59:52.340 So I have a problem with that.

00:59:54.160 I think you have to hire more referees.

00:59:56.140 And I think every year you have to get rid of the ones that, you know, call percentages

01:00:00.760 below par and have a standard.

01:00:02.860 And that way the players and the fans and the owners will see that there's some turnover.

01:00:07.780 But Kiki made the decision, not referees, to give the one-game suspension, right?

01:00:11.240 I mean, it's not like the—

01:00:11.980 I think that came from a way above him.

01:00:13.440 I don't think that that was his decision.

01:00:14.620 So Adam is the one that got him above.

01:00:16.440 I think so.

01:00:16.680 I think, you know, Stu Jackson came out and said, you know, when it gets to that point that,

01:00:20.340 you know, the commissioner gets involved.

01:00:22.640 Yeah, that's disappointing.

01:00:23.700 I mean, I don't know how you feel about that, but that's disappointing.

01:00:26.420 Let's transition.

01:00:27.300 I got some other questions, a complete different direction I want to go into with you.

01:00:30.900 And I'm curious to know what you're going to say about this.

01:00:32.420 So what do you think about steroids in sports or PED in sports?

01:00:36.580 Like, you know, GH, you know, growth hormone, steroids in football, steroids in baseball.

01:00:42.960 What do you think about steroids and additional things that people are using in sports?

01:00:47.100 You know, I think it puts them at an unfair advantage, you know, for the people that aren't doing it.

01:00:52.400 So I think it's tough that you have to really regulate it to make sure that everyone's playing under the same, you know, rules and field.

01:01:01.140 Do you think they should make it legal or no?

01:01:03.680 No, I think that you have to make it illegal because I think it sends a bad message to the kids.

01:01:09.220 Because, you know, if you do this, you know, which is probably hurting your lifespan that, you know, you're going to be able to end up like these guys.

01:01:16.940 I think it just sends the wrong message.

01:01:19.220 Okay.

01:01:19.580 So some of these guys are coming and saying, look, I'm playing football, man.

01:01:22.000 I'm getting my ass kicked and I'm being hit by a 330-pound person.

01:01:24.860 I kind of need my body to be a little bit stronger.

01:01:26.740 I need a little bit of GH to be able to handle this.

01:01:29.840 You don't know what it's like to be hit head on with a freaking helmet that can crush anybody's skull.

01:01:35.040 And, you know, this guy's on something and I'm not to be able to have that.

01:01:38.940 So I ask this question because it leads me to a whole different thing.

01:01:42.300 You think Canseco did the right thing by coming out and telling everybody's story about who was doing what and who was doing this?

01:01:48.060 You think that was the right move on his end?

01:01:50.220 You know, I think he had a story.

01:01:51.760 I think he was, you know, fed up with the way it was the direction that it was heading.

01:01:56.380 And he wanted to, you know, come out and say his side of it because I think it was obvious that, you know, he definitely was on steroids.

01:02:02.740 And I think he admitted it.

01:02:03.760 So with that, I think he just wanted to make sure everybody else knew what was going on.

01:02:08.280 Did it help baseball, you think?

01:02:10.980 I think it took a little bit of excitement out of the game because at that time, you know, it was all those home runs were flying out of the park.

01:02:17.440 So I think it kind of, it hurt it.

01:02:19.580 But I think in the big scope of things, I think it, you know, it helped the younger generation that they took that out of the game.

01:02:26.580 You know, I think that the league, to be honest with you, came up with a different way of trying to keep that excitement.

01:02:33.580 And we all know they say that the balls are juiced now.

01:02:36.160 So, you know, don't do the steroids because the ball is going to go out of the park anyway.

01:02:41.600 So, you know, they came up with a different avenue to keep that excitement in there.

01:02:45.820 So I think there's always going to be situations that fans are going to question, you know, what's being done and how it's being done.

01:02:53.520 As a fan, as an outsider, I don't know if you're a baseball guy or not.

01:02:56.120 I am.

01:02:56.860 You're an all-sports guy.

01:02:58.000 So did that do anything to you about the opinion of the game in baseball?

01:03:02.040 Did you look at it and say, I trusted more, I trusted less?

01:03:04.160 Or did you like, I really don't give a shit?

01:03:06.040 No, no.

01:03:06.540 It didn't matter to me either way.

01:03:08.100 Got it.

01:03:08.780 So what do you think about Pete Rose?

01:03:10.200 Does he belong in the Hall of Fame?

01:03:11.920 You know, I do.

01:03:12.840 I think he, you know, belongs in the Hall of Fame.

01:03:15.120 I think he should be judged for what he did on the field during his playing days.

01:03:19.600 Obviously, he made a mistake.

01:03:20.980 He's finally come to the point where, you know, he said that he, you know, he did what he did.

01:03:25.700 And I think that he should be given that opportunity.

01:03:28.500 I hope he does while he's still here that, you know, he makes it into the Hall of Fame

01:03:32.360 because I think he's somebody that, you know, deserves it.

01:03:35.820 And I think it would really, you know, change his life.

01:03:38.640 How many times has the NBA or have any owners reached out to you to want to hire you as a consultant

01:03:46.160 or bring you in?

01:03:47.600 I know this is a crazy idea, but has anybody from the NBA office, front office, or any sports team,

01:03:54.160 I'm not looking for names.

01:03:55.200 I'm not asking you to throw names here.

01:03:56.520 I'm just asking, has anybody from the league ever reached out to you, considered to employ you?

01:04:01.480 No.

01:04:02.020 Never?

01:04:02.580 No.

01:04:02.920 Any NBA owners?

01:04:03.820 I had had conversations with one owner early on, and unfortunately it fell through.

01:04:10.260 And, you know, I thought it was going to be something that I was going to do, but it didn't work out.

01:04:14.220 If I am the NBA and I hired you as a consultant, what could you bring in value to the NBA?

01:04:21.260 Would you be able to identify areas where the integrity of the game would be going higher?

01:04:27.820 Would you be able to help them out?

01:04:29.160 Absolutely.

01:04:29.560 You have to look at it from an experience and referee perspective of what referees are

01:04:34.720 doing on the floor, who they're talking to during timeouts, before the game, who they're

01:04:39.280 laughing with.

01:04:40.480 You know, and all of that from a perception-wise, other referees, you know, will pick that up

01:04:46.940 because they know maybe this guy's, you know, getting in a position to try and get a call.

01:04:52.900 You know, other players will look over and see, why is he talking to that guy and he's not

01:04:56.620 talking to me?

01:04:57.160 An owner or a coach will look over to timeout and say, why is he talking to that guy and

01:05:01.800 not talking to me?

01:05:02.700 And then what happens after that series and the next couple times down the floor?

01:05:07.460 Did they get a call?

01:05:08.520 Did you go back to why he got that call?

01:05:10.640 Did he, because he had conversation with him?

01:05:12.800 There's just a lot of things that you have to look at in regard to...

01:05:16.480 How about the other side?

01:05:17.320 Would a sports team benefit from hiring you?

01:05:19.600 I think I could show them the mistakes that the referees are making or what they're calling

01:05:25.400 so that they could go over that in practice in regard to prepare for certain referees and

01:05:31.580 what they're calling.

01:05:32.580 Or look at the league office and see what they're telling the referees to call and make sure that

01:05:37.760 their players are doing things the right way and enforcing what the referees are being told

01:05:44.280 to call it.

01:05:45.740 So it changes from every given night.

01:05:48.740 They have a webpage and they're sending out plays to these referees and telling them to

01:05:52.340 call these certain things.

01:05:53.500 How big of an impact could you make points-wise per game?

01:05:55.620 I think that, you know, we talked about this at lunch.

01:05:57.380 I think there's no doubt, you know, if you know the tendencies of the referees and you

01:06:01.920 know what they're calling, that there could be a difference of two, three, or four points

01:06:05.120 if you are aware of not doing what they're going to call.

01:06:08.820 You take four points times 82 games, that's 328 points, something like that.

01:06:13.460 That could cost you like three, four, five games.

01:06:15.920 That could be eight playoffs, sixth, you know, eight spot, 10 spot.

01:06:19.840 I mean, we're not talking little numbers here.

01:06:22.240 So my follow-up for you would be this.

01:06:24.020 Would Adam Silver be okay if I, one of the sports owners, hired you as a consultant?

01:06:28.220 I think that there would be a problem.

01:06:29.560 I think that early on I was going to have a job with one of the owners and I think that

01:06:33.960 he basically was told to stop talking to me.

01:06:36.520 That's my personal opinion.

01:06:37.580 I don't know for sure, but...

01:06:39.340 So do you know who Frank Avangale is?

01:06:41.220 I do.

01:06:41.880 So what do you think about Frank's story?

01:06:44.220 A great story.

01:06:44.960 I remember the movie with the FBI agents with the money, right?

01:06:49.160 Yeah.

01:06:49.420 Yes.

01:06:49.840 He's the guy that had eight different identities.

01:06:52.740 He was a surgeon.

01:06:54.140 I think he was a pilot.

01:06:56.060 I wouldn't say he was a lawyer and he would go to the banks and get checks, all these weird

01:07:00.100 things he would do, right?

01:07:01.200 And eventually the FBI finally said, what the hell is this guy doing?

01:07:03.880 He went to prison, I think, for five years.

01:07:05.280 And later on, the federal government hired him.

01:07:08.140 Because if he knows how this works, man, we are going to be able to catch everybody else.

01:07:14.040 Do you know Joseph Kennedy's story?

01:07:15.900 He's the market crash guy on what he did and how he manipulated the stock market and made

01:07:19.900 all this money.

01:07:20.460 He would make it go up, make it come down.

01:07:22.420 Do you know who finally hired him?

01:07:24.000 FDR.

01:07:24.440 You know what position he got?

01:07:26.580 He ran SEC.

01:07:29.160 So think about the, like, this is like you're going after the biggest market manipulator and

01:07:34.480 you're hiring him as a president to become the guy running SEC.

01:07:41.020 He ran it because he knew what everybody would be doing.

01:07:44.260 And then FDR was able to clean up the financial industry with the manipulation that was taking

01:07:48.600 place.

01:07:49.300 And this list goes on.

01:07:50.540 This isn't just these two names.

01:07:51.760 There's, you know, other names we can look at.

01:07:53.540 So Joe Kennedy, Frank Abingale, you know, there's a lot of guys that come in.

01:07:57.060 And I think from an outsider looking in, if Joe Kennedy gets hired by FDR, if FBI and the

01:08:03.620 federal government hires Frank Abingale, if you got, if you got these kinds of things

01:08:07.760 going on, what about if Adam Silver or somebody came in and said, hey, we're going to make

01:08:12.960 a call to, this is going to be weird.

01:08:15.580 It's going to be strange.

01:08:16.440 People can think we're crazy, but we are hiring Tim as a consultant and he's going to

01:08:22.760 come in and he's going to do X, Y, Z to clean house and kind of show us stuff that he can

01:08:28.100 help out in this area.

01:08:29.560 What would you think if you got a weird call from front office or somebody said, listen,

01:08:33.920 we would like to talk to you about possibly bringing you in, but here's some of the arrangements.

01:08:40.000 Would you even entertain that idea?

01:08:42.180 Oh, absolutely.

01:08:42.700 I mean, you talk about, you know, my love of basketball and growing up and making it to

01:08:48.400 the NBA.

01:08:48.880 I'd be foolish not to, you know, want to entertain that, but I don't think it would

01:08:53.540 happen with the NBA.

01:08:55.180 You know, possibly maybe one of the other sports leagues, I think it would be an opportunity

01:08:59.200 or maybe, you know, an individual team, but I just don't think the NBA would do that just

01:09:05.220 based on the black eye and rightfully so that I did and I put on the league.

01:09:10.260 So, you know, I wouldn't be waiting for that phone call, to be honest with you.

01:09:14.060 And neither from the teams.

01:09:15.100 I think it's a possibility one of the teams in the NBA, but I think it would be something

01:09:20.320 that would not be publicized, that it would be, you know, behind closed doors that I could

01:09:24.520 break down tape and look at calls.

01:09:26.740 I know there's been some retired referees that have done that for, you know, a lot of

01:09:31.020 the individual teams.

01:09:32.780 Just by sitting down with you and having a conversation, I'm like, oh my gosh.

01:09:35.300 I mean, I would want to know that as an owner, especially if I'm in a smaller market guy,

01:09:40.880 not even the bigger market guys, because the bigger market guys, they don't need it.

01:09:44.180 They already got the favoritism going for them, right?

01:09:46.220 I mean, the NBA wants who in the finals today?

01:09:47.920 If you think about it, who does the NBA want in the finals this year?

01:09:50.680 You want Golden State against who?

01:09:52.460 Boston, yeah.

01:09:53.080 Boston or Philly.

01:09:53.920 That's who you're going to want, right?

01:09:55.280 You're now going to want Toronto.

01:09:56.240 Certainly not Milwaukee.

01:09:57.420 Certainly not Milwaukee in that market, right?

01:09:59.460 You're not going to want Milwaukee because in one way, if Milwaukee wins, Giannis is staying.

01:10:04.640 Do you really want Giannis staying in that market or do you want Milwaukee losing and

01:10:08.160 Giannis going to an L.A.?

01:10:09.800 Or Giannis going to a different Dallas market?

01:10:12.460 You know, I don't know if I want him to stay over there, but I don't know.

01:10:14.800 I just look at it from the standpoint of if this is a game of having an edge, if Bezos

01:10:19.160 goes out there and hires some interesting people to give him an edge, former FBI agents, you

01:10:22.980 know, former people like that, why are you hiring former FBI agents?

01:10:25.360 For what?

01:10:26.660 You know, but what's the reason behind that?

01:10:28.260 And he runs a trillion dollar company.

01:10:30.300 If I'm the NBA, here's how I would notice it.

01:10:32.680 I would hate for a documentary or a movie to be made about your story.

01:10:37.300 So let's just say somebody sees this because, you know, these interviews, sometimes they

01:10:39.840 see it like a Michael Francis was on our show.

01:10:42.460 We ended up getting 10 million views between a couple interviews.

01:10:45.260 One was 6.2 and another one's like 2.2 and one in Russian is like a million and then

01:10:49.420 all the other stuff.

01:10:50.900 A&E contacted him, show in Vegas, all this other stuff.

01:10:53.480 I would, if I'm the league, I am much more excited about hiring you than allowing somebody

01:11:01.400 from Hollywood to reach out to you and make a movie about this, like Concussion, because

01:11:05.020 I think that movie is going to hurt the NBA more than the NBA hiring you and signing a

01:11:11.280 10-year contract with you as a consultant to keep you in as long as XYZ stuff you agree

01:11:16.100 to, that would be my move.

01:11:19.300 I need you as my agent.

01:11:20.700 I would make a hell of an agent, but I'd run a company, but that would be my approach.

01:11:24.680 So let's do a lightning round and then we'll wrap up and we'll talk about the book and

01:11:28.440 we'll send it off.

01:11:28.980 So I'll give you some names.

01:11:29.840 Just tell me what you think about it.

01:11:31.040 First word that comes to mind or whatever thing you want to say about him.

01:11:34.200 Okay.

01:11:34.800 First one, one of your best friends in the world, David Stern.

01:11:38.260 Arrogant.

01:11:39.080 Okay.

01:11:39.920 LeBron James.

01:11:41.780 Powerful.

01:11:42.720 Ron Artes.

01:11:43.380 Funny.

01:11:46.240 Really?

01:11:46.680 Michael Jordan.

01:11:48.400 The goat.

01:11:49.760 Wow.

01:11:50.220 Phil Jackson.

01:11:52.080 Sarcastic. 0.79

01:11:53.720 Popovich.

01:11:54.740 Miserable.

01:11:56.140 Why do you say that?

01:11:57.440 I just think he, I've never met somebody night in and night out that could be so miserable.

01:12:02.220 It just, it was never a smile or, you know, in a good mood.

01:12:06.880 It just seemed like it was no matter what, whether he was up 20 or not, he just seemed...

01:12:10.600 Interesting.

01:12:11.800 Joey Crawford.

01:12:12.480 That's a tough one.

01:12:14.420 Good guy.

01:12:16.540 What was the first three words you thought about before you said good guy?

01:12:19.480 That's what I want to know.

01:12:20.840 It's tough, but he, you know, to be honest with you, he's a giving guy to the community

01:12:25.640 and he really gives back and, you know, would take the shirt off his back for people.

01:12:30.860 Danny Crawford.

01:12:33.540 Talented.

01:12:35.060 Bovetta.

01:12:36.920 Shady.

01:12:37.320 Okay.

01:12:38.920 Rashid Wallace.

01:12:39.880 I'm trying to think on the floor or off the floor, but on the floor, nuts.

01:12:43.140 Rick Mahorn.

01:12:44.100 Great guy.

01:12:44.860 Adam Silver.

01:12:45.940 Different because I really don't know him.

01:12:48.060 I just know him from what he does now, but I think it's a different take on what David

01:12:53.260 Stern was like.

01:12:54.260 Better or worse?

01:12:55.040 Better.

01:12:55.420 Much better.

01:12:55.920 I think, you know, professional, likable, seems to want to just do things the right way.

01:13:01.760 Interesting.

01:13:02.780 Jack Nicholson.

01:13:03.960 Funny.

01:13:04.860 Funny.

01:13:05.440 Okay.

01:13:06.940 And then that's about it.

01:13:08.740 Those are the names I have for you.

01:13:09.960 Well, so look, if you thought today's interview was interesting, we haven't even gotten into

01:13:14.580 like 50 stories in here.

01:13:16.120 He had an incident one time with Barkley in the locker room with, I mean, you just have

01:13:20.600 to see what happened there.

01:13:22.080 A couple incidents with Jordan and Phil Jackson, which was pretty epic, and a lot of other stories.

01:13:26.520 If you're an NBA guy, you want to hear it from his perspective.

01:13:29.160 But, you know, one of the things you were telling me about, why don't you talk a little

01:13:32.020 bit about Ref Picks?

01:13:33.040 Tell me what this Ref Picks website, RefPicks, P-I-C-K-S dot com, right?

01:13:38.440 Right.

01:13:38.700 So it's a website for people that gamble casually.

01:13:41.520 Obviously, hopefully nobody has a problem.

01:13:43.720 We basically guide them through the pitfalls of, you know, traps to stay away from.

01:13:49.160 And I put out NBA picks based on the referees and the relationships that exist.

01:13:53.460 Literally.

01:13:53.740 So if you're, you know, into betting on the ballgames as a form of entertainment, you

01:13:58.600 know, we guide you through, you know, how to hopefully be a winner and not a loser.

01:14:02.680 With that being said, Tim, thank you so much for coming out here and being a guest on Valuetainment.

01:14:05.820 Thanks for having me.

01:14:06.160 Truly, really enjoyed it.

01:14:07.100 Thank you.

01:14:07.640 Thanks, everybody, for listening.

01:14:08.880 And by the way, if you haven't already subscribed to Valuetainment on iTunes, please do so.

01:14:13.520 Give us a five-star.

01:14:14.920 Write a review if you haven't already.

01:14:16.280 And if you have any questions for me that you may have, you can always find me on Snapchat,

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01:14:22.460 Just search my name, Patrick VidDavid.

01:14:24.360 And I actually do respond back when you snap me or send me a message on Instagram.

01:14:29.340 With that being said, have a great day today.

01:14:31.080 Take care, everybody.

01:14:31.800 Bye-bye.

Valuetainment - July 17, 2019

Episode 343： Tim Donaghy Opens Us About NBA Referees

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