Valuetainment - August 09, 2019


Episode 353： Confessions Of The Mafia Hitman For Tony Spilotro


Episode Stats

Length

59 minutes

Words per Minute

181.39993

Word Count

10,869

Sentence Count

1,165

Misogynist Sentences

7

Hate Speech Sentences

9


Summary

Frank Collada was a former Mafia hitman in Chicago and Las Vegas. His story was featured in the movie Casino starring Robert De Niro and Joe Pesci. Frank talks about the differences between Chicago and Vegas and how he became Tony Spallatra s hitman.


Transcript

00:00:00.980 30 seconds, one time for the underdog, ignition sequence start, let me see you put em up, reach
00:00:09.240 the sky, touch the stars up above, cause it's one time for the underdog, one time for the
00:00:16.220 underdog.
00:00:17.300 I'm Patrick Bedevi, host of Item, and today I have Frank Collada with me, who was a former
00:00:20.660 mafia hitman for Tony Spallatra in Las Vegas, his story was told in the movie Casino, if
00:00:25.740 you've seen the movie Casino with Robert De Niro, with Sharon Stone, and Joe Pesci, Frank
00:00:30.880 Collada's story is also in the movie Casino, so enjoy this interview with Frank Collada.
00:00:34.560 Frank, thank you so much for being a guest here on Valuetainment, appreciate you for coming
00:00:38.080 out.
00:00:39.380 So Frank, you know, you hear a lot of different stories about all these mob families, New York,
00:00:45.380 Chicago, all these different outfits, what was the biggest difference culturally with
00:00:51.140 Chicago mob family versus the ones in New York?
00:00:54.220 You know, I don't know how to answer that question, to be truthful, which we're a bunch
00:00:58.140 of Italian people, if that's what you're looking for, and we stuck together, we had
00:01:04.020 values, principles we lived by, and we had one boss, we didn't answer directly to the
00:01:11.160 boss, we had several underbosses that we answered to, he was far, far in the distance,
00:01:17.120 you know, but we know where the messages were coming from.
00:01:20.620 So you think, so that's one of the things I wanted to touch up on.
00:01:23.600 So New York had five bosses, when Lucky kind of divided everybody up, and everybody went
00:01:27.880 through the five bosses, and then they would come, kind of work together.
00:01:31.020 Chicago was under one boss.
00:01:33.200 What do you think was different than the benefit of having one versus having five?
00:01:36.280 One boss, one leader, let's say, it's not as confusing for sure, when you got five different
00:01:47.180 families out there, like New York had, you run into problems, everybody's got different
00:01:52.980 things, different territories.
00:01:54.960 In Chicago, this one boss, you knew what he wanted.
00:02:00.100 He had different made men around him.
00:02:02.280 They were called made men.
00:02:04.360 And these guys had territories.
00:02:06.700 So if you work for one of these made men, you knew that he was getting the orders from
00:02:11.260 the underboss of the head guy.
00:02:13.980 At that time, it was Paul Rico.
00:02:18.120 He was the boss in Chicago from 1962 to 1972.
00:02:23.000 They called him Paul the way to Rico.
00:02:26.160 Ricardo went into retirement.
00:02:27.820 But as soon as Rico went back to jail, or died, I'm sorry, then Ricardo takes over temporarily.
00:02:35.840 And then he puts somebody else to control things.
00:02:38.780 And at that time, they used a guy by the name of Jack Cerrone.
00:02:42.720 And then when Jack went to jail, I mean, he could go on and on.
00:02:45.840 Then they used Joey Ayupa, another boss.
00:02:49.460 And Joey Ayupa goes all the way back to Al Capone.
00:02:53.300 Isn't Joey also the one that ended up putting the hit on Spilaccio because he was too concerned
00:02:59.560 about what was taking place here in Vegas?
00:03:02.160 Joey Ayupa was in penitentiary at the time for the Las Vegas skim.
00:03:08.280 If he was out, Tony would have probably never got murdered.
00:03:11.980 The guy that put the hit on Tony Spilaccio and his brother Michael was named Joe Ferriola.
00:03:17.640 Joey Ayupa, we used to call him John the Gold.
00:03:21.500 But why do they say Joey Ayupa?
00:03:23.180 A lot of articles talk about the fact that Joey put the hit.
00:03:25.620 Joey Ayupa was in jail.
00:03:27.040 He was very close to Tony.
00:03:29.720 Very close to Tony.
00:03:31.840 And that's one of the reasons Tony became the guy he was, because of Joey Ayupa.
00:03:37.380 The only thing I believe that Joey Ayupa was thinking about at that time was getting out of jail.
00:03:42.780 I mean, as an old man, they put him in jail.
00:03:45.820 Got it.
00:03:47.260 Got it.
00:03:47.700 So he was a boss in jail.
00:03:48.820 So, okay.
00:03:49.420 So let's go back before we talk about some of the Vegas stuff.
00:03:52.200 You know, when I read a lot of stuff on you is, Frank, I mean, you've been a tough guy since you were a kid coming up.
00:03:59.200 It's what I hear about.
00:04:00.380 So coming up in the streets of Chicago, who were you in the streets of Chicago?
00:04:04.200 Like, if I knew you at 12, 13, 14 years old, who was Frank?
00:04:07.040 Frank, just a tough guy that didn't take orders well from people, that had a sort of a complex about wearing thick glasses.
00:04:20.200 At the time, I used to wear real thick glasses.
00:04:23.060 So I had a complex over it, and I'd fight in a New York second, you know.
00:04:28.220 And a lot of people would say, he's a tough guy.
00:04:31.880 Don't mess with him, referring to me.
00:04:33.880 I never heard that, but later on in years, I used to hear all them stories.
00:04:39.620 So, and who were your parents?
00:04:40.900 What did your mom do?
00:04:41.860 My father was killed when I was eight years old in an automobile accident.
00:04:47.700 He was being pursued by the police.
00:04:50.340 My mother was a wonderful lady.
00:04:52.080 She was a housewife, took care of us.
00:04:55.620 She was eight months pregnant with my brother.
00:04:59.660 At the time, my father was killed in this automobile accident.
00:05:03.880 And I had a sister, an older sister, five years older than me.
00:05:08.440 My mother did the best she could do.
00:05:11.800 She was left a little money.
00:05:14.540 But, you know, the money runs out.
00:05:16.600 So she never worked, so she had to find a job.
00:05:20.200 And she was good.
00:05:21.340 She never wanted me to be the way I turned out to be.
00:05:23.660 She never wanted you to go that route?
00:05:25.060 Oh, no. She would never take no money.
00:05:26.380 Frank, was that in your environment at all, or no?
00:05:28.440 Was the mob and the mafia around you at all, or no?
00:05:33.220 Listen, when I grew up, my father was a real tough guy.
00:05:37.960 He was a legendary guy.
00:05:39.520 Everybody knew about Joe Collada.
00:05:41.300 That was his name.
00:05:42.760 So I used to hear these stories about my father.
00:05:45.700 He never wanted to be connected to the Chicago outfit.
00:05:48.980 Although he did things for him.
00:05:50.500 He just never wanted to be connected because he didn't want anybody telling him how to live his life as I was.
00:05:59.940 See, that's the things I learned.
00:06:01.720 I sort of wanted to be like him.
00:06:04.300 He was a driver, a wheel man, and a killer.
00:06:07.620 And a killer.
00:06:08.660 Oh, yeah.
00:06:09.920 He was a killer.
00:06:10.740 From these stories I heard, now, of course, he's not going to tell me this.
00:06:13.820 His friends and relatives, not my mother, relatives, maybe distanced cousins.
00:06:23.020 So I idolized him.
00:06:26.080 But he isn't what drove me to be the person I turned out to be.
00:06:32.680 I hung in a neighborhood where I used to see all these old-timers.
00:06:37.260 Smoking cigars, had the fedoras on their head, trench coats, top coats.
00:06:43.820 Nice cars.
00:06:46.500 Never working.
00:06:48.220 Beautiful woman around them.
00:06:50.820 I thought maybe this was the kind of way I wanted to go.
00:06:55.460 To be like them, but I don't want to be connected.
00:06:57.900 I don't want to be a gangster.
00:06:58.980 What age did you see that?
00:07:00.400 At what age did you start seeing the fedora?
00:07:02.360 14.
00:07:03.140 At 14?
00:07:03.760 15.
00:07:04.560 And your dad died when you were 8?
00:07:07.360 Correct.
00:07:07.980 And when you were 8, you had a brother that was coming.
00:07:10.700 He said your sister's 5 years older than you?
00:07:13.380 That's correct.
00:07:14.300 And so let me ask you, what impact did it have when you heard the story?
00:07:18.340 You're 8 years old.
00:07:19.220 You hear the story.
00:07:19.900 Mom, somebody tells you dad just got into an accident.
00:07:22.200 Cops were chasing him.
00:07:23.760 What kind of an impact?
00:07:24.760 Because this is a man you idolized.
00:07:26.060 What did that do to you?
00:07:27.800 It hurt me to lose my father, of course.
00:07:29.900 Of course.
00:07:30.480 They troubled me deeply.
00:07:32.980 It really bothered me.
00:07:34.380 The impact it had was not as far as getting even with the police or anything like that.
00:07:39.080 I admired him.
00:07:42.180 My mother always told me, don't believe all the stories you hear.
00:07:46.960 But I admired my father.
00:07:49.600 And of course I believed them stories.
00:07:52.220 So it had a big impact on my life.
00:07:54.260 I thought about it years later.
00:07:58.180 And I think it set me in a direction I went.
00:08:01.860 Did it produce any rage at all or no?
00:08:04.320 Was there anything like, you know, because of this, I'm going to want to be like my dad even more than I wanted before?
00:08:10.420 Well, I did see a lot of rage in my father.
00:08:13.860 I seen a lot of rage in my father.
00:08:16.660 My mother was never struck by my father.
00:08:20.240 He verbally screamed at her all the time because he was a very jealous man.
00:08:24.800 My mother was a very attractive woman.
00:08:27.140 Very good woman.
00:08:28.760 But my father was a very insecure man.
00:08:31.860 And he screamed at her.
00:08:33.040 He was particular about the furniture.
00:08:35.440 I mean, and as a kid, the sticks in your head.
00:08:38.080 Wow.
00:08:38.200 Your mind is developed when you're six.
00:08:40.860 And of course I'm eight years old.
00:08:43.420 So, but I never done the things he did as far as hollering at females as I got older.
00:08:48.260 Because I think I learned from that.
00:08:49.960 And some people go the opposite direction.
00:08:51.780 Interesting.
00:08:52.420 But I learned from that.
00:08:53.820 But I still love my father.
00:08:56.320 And I never seen him stealing.
00:08:59.340 I just heard stories about him stealing and killing people and stuff like that.
00:09:05.920 And that was fashionable then for people to talk about stuff like that.
00:09:10.700 And that was probably setting me on my way.
00:09:14.260 Got it.
00:09:15.120 So it was a source of, you know, maybe inspiration, but also at the same time a way of life.
00:09:21.700 So you're 14 years old.
00:09:23.660 You're seeing these fedoras.
00:09:24.820 You're seeing this lifestyle.
00:09:26.320 You're kind of a kid that you don't want people to push you around and tell you what to do.
00:09:29.880 You've built a little bit of a reputation.
00:09:31.940 What was the first experience on how you started getting close to the family?
00:09:36.860 The Chicago outfit?
00:09:38.100 Yes.
00:09:38.440 That family?
00:09:41.400 Well, of course, I knew they were around all the time.
00:09:44.140 And you'd hear stories about them.
00:09:46.080 And then you'd see these individuals and you would start admiring them.
00:09:49.660 And then my friend that I started hanging with at the time, we were Shining Shoes together.
00:09:56.320 It's a known story.
00:09:57.500 It's in one of my books.
00:09:59.160 His name was Tony Splacho.
00:10:00.560 And he was a tough street kid.
00:10:03.260 He had five brothers.
00:10:05.480 And we got in the confrontation.
00:10:08.520 You and Tony.
00:10:09.240 Oh, yeah.
00:10:10.620 And Shining Shoes, different territory.
00:10:13.860 And then we come to find out that his father and my father were good friends from the old neighborhood, let's say.
00:10:20.680 And we became friends, Tony and I.
00:10:23.000 It's something like you would see in a movie, but this is true.
00:10:25.560 And we realized that we were going to be friends the rest of our life, which we were.
00:10:33.320 And we fought together.
00:10:34.740 We stole together.
00:10:35.960 We beat up people together.
00:10:37.660 You fought together or you fought together?
00:10:39.360 We fought other people.
00:10:40.220 Other people.
00:10:40.860 Got it.
00:10:41.120 We never fought each other.
00:10:44.140 Was his father's reputation like your father?
00:10:46.980 No.
00:10:47.220 His father, his name was Patsy.
00:10:50.220 His father was a hardworking man.
00:10:52.260 He owned a restaurant and the neighborhood, the old neighborhood, Grand and Ogden.
00:10:56.920 And he was famous for his meatball sandwiches.
00:11:00.040 The reason being that my father and him, his father got along so well.
00:11:06.160 My father used to go in there.
00:11:07.460 Everybody liked Patsy.
00:11:09.180 One day, Patsy told my father.
00:11:11.640 He says, the black hand.
00:11:13.020 I don't know if you people are aware what the black hand is.
00:11:15.800 There are a bunch of grease balls that first came here many, many years ago before there was a syndicate and all of that.
00:11:21.380 And they used to muscle their own kind, meaning all the immigrants from Italy, take money from them.
00:11:30.280 So they were putting the muscle on Tony Splacho's father, Patsy.
00:11:34.720 They go around and they take money from him.
00:11:37.260 So one day, he told my father, he said, hey, Joe.
00:11:40.380 He said, but these grease balls are driving me crazy.
00:11:43.320 He said, they come here once a week.
00:11:44.640 If I ain't got the money, they're threatening me and this and that.
00:11:48.000 So my father said, what day they come here?
00:11:49.560 And he told them.
00:11:51.880 My father says, I'll be here next Thursday or whatever day it was.
00:11:55.880 So these couple of grease balls come in there.
00:11:58.840 They couldn't speak English.
00:12:01.020 You know, this is what I call grease balls.
00:12:04.440 What year is this, like 40s, mid-40s?
00:12:06.600 Yeah, that was, I don't, I wasn't even in existence then.
00:12:11.100 That's what I'm asking.
00:12:11.940 So it's prior to your existence.
00:12:13.420 Like you're not born yet.
00:12:14.260 I wasn't even born yet.
00:12:16.920 So they went in there and my father was in the back room with another couple of guys.
00:12:21.420 And they start threatening Patsy Splacho.
00:12:26.100 My father and the other guys come out of the back room and kill these guys.
00:12:30.240 Took them and dumped them somewhere.
00:12:32.160 I don't know, but killed them and dumped them.
00:12:34.500 Two guys.
00:12:35.800 Yeah, two guys.
00:12:37.680 From there, it went a little further.
00:12:41.340 Then they went and got the leader, the head guy.
00:12:47.200 And they caught him in a motel room.
00:12:50.380 He went on the run, him and his wife.
00:12:52.620 And they caught him in a motel room with his wife.
00:12:56.600 They didn't kill the wife, they killed him in bed.
00:12:58.820 And that ended the black hand in Chicago.
00:13:03.540 That ended it.
00:13:05.040 And regardless of what you hear, this is a true story.
00:13:08.020 That ended it.
00:13:10.700 Then the Chicago outfit came about.
00:13:15.140 All right, Capone and so on.
00:13:16.760 Then it started coming about.
00:13:18.920 And my father was a recognized individual.
00:13:21.600 And he didn't want to be part of any kind of an organization.
00:13:25.160 What was his reasoning for that?
00:13:26.200 Because we were all Italians.
00:13:29.040 What do you want to bother your own kind for?
00:13:32.000 Hard-working people that are selling fruit and vegetable on the street.
00:13:36.180 And you coming from the same country these people come from.
00:13:39.240 And you want to humiliate them and take their money.
00:13:42.800 Do like they do.
00:13:43.800 So he's got money to protect them.
00:13:47.720 Got it.
00:13:48.860 Interesting.
00:13:49.480 So then you and Spalatra start doing things.
00:13:51.680 You guys are fighting people.
00:13:52.740 You're doing all this other stuff together.
00:13:53.980 And he also had a reputation.
00:13:56.400 He said he had five brothers.
00:13:58.360 And then you work.
00:13:59.860 And when did the money-making process start for you?
00:14:03.280 When did you guys start making some real money?
00:14:04.840 Well, we were making money.
00:14:06.580 You know, they call it the bank route.
00:14:09.920 You know, this was later on.
00:14:12.120 Well, what happened was Tony always used to tell me.
00:14:15.360 He used to say, Frankie, one day I'm going to be a boss in the outfit.
00:14:18.700 This was his words.
00:14:20.280 And you hear this all the time.
00:14:21.540 How old was he when he told you this?
00:14:23.280 We were about 16 years old.
00:14:24.960 Wow.
00:14:25.640 And I tell him, I don't want to be involved with them people.
00:14:28.320 You know, I want to do what I'm doing.
00:14:29.780 I was robbing whatever.
00:14:31.380 Robbing with other guys.
00:14:33.100 And he said, well, when I become a boss, I'm going to make you my right-hand man.
00:14:37.480 I said, thank you, but I don't want to be involved, Tony.
00:14:40.880 And he says, okay, okay, okay.
00:14:43.260 And when we were 18 years old, in one of my books, Tony come and got me and he said, we've got a big robbery.
00:14:53.080 I want to include you in it and Richie, Richard Gorman, Dickie Gorman, they call him.
00:14:57.820 He was the guy that I brought around.
00:14:59.640 He was a thief.
00:15:02.500 He says, we're going to go with three other guys.
00:15:04.380 You don't know them.
00:15:05.280 I said, I never robbed with strangers.
00:15:07.820 He said, that's all right.
00:15:08.520 I know these guys.
00:15:09.400 They're from Grant and Ogden, meaning the neighborhood I was born and raised in.
00:15:14.180 So we went down there and we met the three individuals.
00:15:18.120 One of the guys became our boss in later years.
00:15:21.720 His name was Joe Lombardo.
00:15:23.400 They call him Joey the Clone.
00:15:25.680 He's in jail now doing natural life.
00:15:29.220 So we went and we met these three individuals.
00:15:32.360 And then we drove all of us to Indiana.
00:15:37.520 It was a bank.
00:15:39.400 And I thought, well, we could rob a bank in Illinois.
00:15:41.560 Why do we got to go to Indiana?
00:15:43.480 They said, we're going to rob the safety deposit boxes in the bank, in the vault.
00:15:49.500 So we cased it out.
00:15:51.000 We cased it out for a couple weeks.
00:15:53.440 It was a very difficult robbery, very time-consuming because we had to go to the building next door,
00:15:58.860 through the basement, through a double foundation, and into the bottom of the bank,
00:16:03.660 and go through the floor of the bank and go into the vault.
00:16:06.680 Just like you would see in movies.
00:16:08.300 We'd done it then.
00:16:10.180 With tools that weren't as modern as they are today.
00:16:16.320 And we got in there.
00:16:18.180 We didn't count the money as we were taking it out.
00:16:20.500 We threw it in duffel bags.
00:16:21.700 When we got back to Chicago, of course, there was two cars.
00:16:27.780 I don't want to go through the whole thing.
00:16:28.980 It'd take forever to tell you about it.
00:16:31.460 We got to Chicago.
00:16:32.380 We counted the money on the bed in this guy's place, one of the guys that was with us.
00:16:37.580 It was on a full-size bed.
00:16:39.180 The money was like a foot high.
00:16:42.000 Covered the whole bed.
00:16:44.260 All denominations in jewelry.
00:16:47.160 I was 18 years old.
00:16:48.760 I've never seen that much money in my life.
00:16:53.380 It was $750,000 cash.
00:16:57.180 And it was like, I didn't know, we didn't know the value of the jewelry.
00:17:00.600 It was like a million in jewelry.
00:17:01.920 And I thought, wow, I'm a millionaire.
00:17:05.880 And we all thought that.
00:17:07.600 Then the bad news came.
00:17:09.720 That's when I really learned about the Chicago outfit.
00:17:13.380 Joel Lombardo says, you know, I work for the bosses.
00:17:16.240 I run crap games, dice games.
00:17:18.860 He says, we got to kick in 20%.
00:17:20.640 I said, I ain't giving nobody shit.
00:17:23.440 Tony says, Frankie, we got to.
00:17:26.020 He says, they'll kill us.
00:17:27.020 We won't be able to spend the money.
00:17:29.480 I said, I ain't giving them no money.
00:17:30.940 Why should I give them no money?
00:17:32.840 I said, we robbed the place.
00:17:34.660 They don't know about it.
00:17:36.220 He said, well, Joey's going to have to tell them.
00:17:38.620 He says, we got to give it to them.
00:17:41.760 So I says, all right.
00:17:43.380 One of the guys didn't want to give it up.
00:17:45.820 I don't know whatever happened to him.
00:17:47.280 I never seen him again after that.
00:17:48.620 Really?
00:17:49.260 I never seen him.
00:17:51.580 I know that I got my 20%.
00:17:53.480 I mean, I know that I got my money.
00:17:56.460 The jewelry, we wind up keeping the money out of that.
00:17:59.140 Now, you only know, on jewelry, if it's worth, say, an estimated value of $1 million, you're
00:18:05.020 lucky you wind up with 25% of it.
00:18:06.720 That's right, yeah.
00:18:07.900 So just to get it is all right.
00:18:11.820 So I wind up with like $50,000.
00:18:13.720 I'm 18 years old, $50,000.
00:18:17.180 $750,000 robbery.
00:18:19.080 But still, that's a lot of money, right?
00:18:20.780 In 1956, that's a lot of money.
00:18:22.540 That's a lot of money.
00:18:23.100 A lot of money, yeah.
00:18:23.780 So I was, you know, happy to get it, and that's when I learned about what they should
00:18:30.440 get.
00:18:31.400 And then I learned again that I had to give 20%.
00:18:34.840 I always knew it, but, I mean, another big robbery, the first Brinks truck robbery in
00:18:39.640 Chicago history, I done with five other guys, an armored car.
00:18:45.100 And we wound up with $360,000, and then all of a sudden, we had to give another 20% to
00:18:53.860 the outfit.
00:18:55.020 And I told Pops, Peanuts Pamsko, he was like one of our guys that put the score together.
00:19:00.460 He said, we got to give the guys in Cicero 20%.
00:19:04.100 I said, these guys, they're making money, they ain't doing shit.
00:19:07.460 So I had to keep the money in my house until the two guys come and pick it up.
00:19:11.680 They're 20%, and they brought it to the boss.
00:19:13.760 So that's the way it goes in Chicago, you know.
00:19:17.520 If you make a large score, you got to kick in 20%.
00:19:20.700 What benefit do you get for that?
00:19:22.120 What do you get in return for that?
00:19:23.200 Protection or?
00:19:23.380 You get to do it actually what you want to do, you know what I mean.
00:19:26.460 You just can't kill people, you know.
00:19:28.540 If you got a score that's big, you go and ask them, hey, is this place connected?
00:19:32.940 If it is, let me know, and they'll tell you, no, go ahead and do it.
00:19:36.800 Of course, by doing that, you're letting them know what you're doing.
00:19:39.940 You know, the outfit.
00:19:41.180 Then you got to kick it in.
00:19:42.260 But if it's a small robbery, you know, you want to be a bookmaker.
00:19:48.600 As I said previously, I think I told you, that's where the biggest source of income came in Chicago,
00:19:55.120 was illegal gambling, not drugs, illegal gambling.
00:19:59.480 Who was the first that got into drugs, or no one ever got into drugs?
00:20:02.400 Yeah, it's pretty strange, but I don't know if you've ever heard of it.
00:20:08.180 They call him Matt Sam DiStefano.
00:20:11.460 He was the juice man.
00:20:13.320 He started out with $150,000 on a loan from Paul Rico.
00:20:18.060 He met him in jail, and he said, you borrow me $120,000, and I'll make you a million a year.
00:20:23.880 And he did.
00:20:25.300 So when he set him up, when he gave him that money and set him up, they needed to have somebody with this Sam, because he was nuts.
00:20:32.880 This Sam, Matt Sam, was nuts.
00:20:35.100 I mean, really a psychopath killer.
00:20:38.180 So they put Tony Splatcher with him, and Sam's brother, Mario.
00:20:42.700 Sam was so bad, he killed his own brother.
00:20:44.960 He did, or he would?
00:20:46.220 He did.
00:20:46.880 His younger brother killed his own brother.
00:20:48.000 Sam killed his own brother.
00:20:49.060 Yeah.
00:20:49.320 For what reason?
00:20:50.220 Drugs.
00:20:51.980 He was stealing drugs.
00:20:54.340 Sam got into the drug business.
00:20:56.020 I'm not varying away from this.
00:20:57.940 He wasn't a made man.
00:20:59.940 He was making over a million dollars a year for the outfit.
00:21:03.420 So they protected their investment with him.
00:21:06.240 Now, they knew that he got into the drug business, but they kept their arm distance, because they didn't want that.
00:21:13.880 That's a terrible thing to be involved in in Illinois.
00:21:16.560 But yet, they got the money.
00:21:20.180 In other words, if he, the profit, he would, giving them profit, you know, so much.
00:21:25.020 I don't know what it was.
00:21:25.900 I can't honestly tell you.
00:21:27.680 And that's when I found out that they were dealing these drugs through Sam, only Sam at the time.
00:21:34.180 And then after a while, the door opened a little bit, you know, a little bit more.
00:21:37.700 But the big bosses, it was more like bootlegging, going back to the bootlegging, all right?
00:21:44.620 Because there's a lot of money in drugs.
00:21:46.480 But still, illegal gambling was more money.
00:21:50.260 More money in illegal gambling than drugs.
00:21:52.340 Oh, man.
00:21:53.220 Back then, these guys are all multimillionaires from alcohol to bootlegging days, you know.
00:21:59.040 Let me ask you, Frank, what is the relationship at that time between the Chicago outfit and New York?
00:22:06.280 And I know there was some stuff in Milwaukee and Florida and some of this other stuff, but mainly Chicago and New York.
00:22:11.120 How did you guys view each other?
00:22:13.060 How did the families look at each other?
00:22:14.940 We got along.
00:22:16.140 Okay.
00:22:16.520 That was their business.
00:22:18.280 Chicago was our business.
00:22:19.480 I don't believe that we ever need, I don't know if any time I needed anybody from New York to help us.
00:22:28.640 Or I know Tony hung around with a couple guys from New York, and they were pretty nice guys.
00:22:34.560 What he'd done with them, I don't know.
00:22:37.380 I know there was one guy that was sent from New York.
00:22:40.980 He was a young guy.
00:22:42.360 He was sent there because they killed his father.
00:22:45.020 His father's name was Louis Ebley.
00:22:47.060 The son's name, we call him Louis DeMooch.
00:22:50.480 When they whacked his father, his father was a hitman in New York.
00:22:54.340 The New York send the son to Chicago with us because he was like wanting to get even for his father getting killed.
00:23:03.380 So they send his son to Chicago.
00:23:06.460 I never did like the guy.
00:23:08.260 As I was growing up, I can't stand him.
00:23:11.300 He was one of the guys involved in Tony Splacho's murder, too.
00:23:15.140 In Vegas.
00:23:16.940 No, in Chicago.
00:23:17.840 That's where they killed Tony.
00:23:19.140 Wow.
00:23:20.720 He was one of the guys involved in the murder.
00:23:22.080 And Tony was his boss.
00:23:24.100 Interesting.
00:23:25.180 So did he end up getting even with anybody in New York or no?
00:23:27.960 Who?
00:23:28.580 Mooch.
00:23:28.980 He never got it.
00:23:29.600 No, no, no.
00:23:30.440 Yeah, he had it.
00:23:31.060 When he got to Chicago, he was told.
00:23:32.660 You could open up these juke boxes and these pinball machines, pick a territory, you know, you got to kick it in.
00:23:40.860 So the kid was making a lot of money for him.
00:23:43.000 So, Frank, the families are still, you know, the money eventually is going back to Naples and it's going back to Sicily, right?
00:23:51.080 It doesn't matter if it's Chicago or New York.
00:23:52.620 I don't think Chicago money goes back to Sicily.
00:23:54.600 Chicago money never went to Sicily?
00:23:56.500 As far as I could tell you, no.
00:23:57.960 Why now?
00:23:58.420 What was the difference between Chicago?
00:23:59.300 Why?
00:24:00.540 They weren't running nothing over here.
00:24:02.560 May have done it in New York, but they weren't running nothing in Chicago.
00:24:05.240 So you guys didn't go to the voting every four or five years that you voted?
00:24:08.640 They were?
00:24:09.120 Vote.
00:24:09.580 When you would go and vote in the family in Sicily, there was, no one from Chicago was part of that.
00:24:15.180 Not that I know of.
00:24:16.160 Interesting.
00:24:16.800 I can honestly tell you that.
00:24:18.100 Not that I know of.
00:24:19.380 Not that you know from Chicago.
00:24:20.460 Okay.
00:24:20.660 I mean, I would have heard.
00:24:21.680 I think I would have heard.
00:24:22.700 Yeah.
00:24:23.020 Because I was connected to all the big guys.
00:24:25.600 I should have heard.
00:24:26.720 I never heard.
00:24:28.560 Maybe it was that secret that I should know.
00:24:31.340 Did Spolatra go to Sicily or I don't know.
00:24:33.240 No.
00:24:33.320 No.
00:24:34.140 No.
00:24:35.240 No, not a lot or no, you never heard him go there?
00:24:37.760 I know he never went.
00:24:38.620 Oh, you never?
00:24:39.140 He never went.
00:24:39.500 I know the furthest place he ever went was like Paris, the UK.
00:24:43.720 It was for jewelry robberies.
00:24:46.580 Jewel robberies.
00:24:47.400 Right.
00:24:47.920 Got it.
00:24:48.960 Interesting.
00:24:49.640 So when does Spolatra become a boss?
00:24:52.240 What age?
00:24:54.260 He really got involved when he was 18.
00:24:57.540 And I believe in, I'm trying to think of the year when he became a made man.
00:25:01.100 I think it was in 1970, and between 74 and 77.
00:25:08.060 So mid-30s.
00:25:08.360 I'm not quite sure.
00:25:09.720 Mid-30s.
00:25:10.580 Well, he was born in May and I was born in December.
00:25:13.060 So we're not that much of a difference in age.
00:25:16.260 38.
00:25:16.800 Both of you born in 38.
00:25:17.920 Yeah.
00:25:18.340 Okay.
00:25:18.820 Got it.
00:25:19.600 So he becomes a made man.
00:25:21.280 And at this point, what are you guys doing together?
00:25:23.540 You're still running together?
00:25:24.580 I was in and out of jail.
00:25:27.060 I was in and out of jail.
00:25:28.540 I got out of jail in 1974.
00:25:30.820 I went in in 1968 for a robbery I didn't commit.
00:25:35.600 True story.
00:25:36.940 I got framed by the government.
00:25:39.160 Don't say they can't.
00:25:40.180 Anybody can frame you.
00:25:41.740 They were just so mad at me because I was beating all these cases.
00:25:45.800 They told me, we'll get you.
00:25:47.240 They framed me and I said, you framed me.
00:25:50.180 That's the way it goes.
00:25:51.540 I got 15 years.
00:25:52.940 Then a lot of things happened.
00:25:54.840 A couple other people rolled, became government informants.
00:25:58.980 And with all these cases, they start testifying me on about the Brink struck robbery, this, that.
00:26:04.000 I wound up with 36 years.
00:26:05.860 But they combined all the years.
00:26:08.240 The highest sentence, they run them concurrently, turned out to be 15 years on the bump case,
00:26:13.560 the case that I didn't have a case.
00:26:15.320 So I did state and federal time.
00:26:18.700 15 or 6?
00:26:20.020 On the 15, I did state time.
00:26:22.660 I did four years.
00:26:23.620 They paroled me.
00:26:24.360 Got it.
00:26:24.820 To a federal detainer.
00:26:26.520 Total time you've been in.
00:26:27.600 How many years?
00:26:28.120 Six years.
00:26:28.760 Total time, 12 years.
00:26:30.480 You did another six.
00:26:31.600 Why not?
00:26:32.340 Two years here, a year there.
00:26:34.200 You know.
00:26:34.500 Anything for murder or no?
00:26:36.000 Nothing was ever for murder.
00:26:37.240 But, obviously, you've committed many.
00:26:41.180 Yes, I did.
00:26:42.300 Yeah.
00:26:42.620 Not many.
00:26:43.340 I've committed murder.
00:26:44.360 Do you know the number?
00:26:46.380 Two directly, two indirectly.
00:26:48.920 Two directly, two indirectly.
00:26:50.840 Does that at all go in your...
00:26:52.260 One's a very famous one.
00:26:54.020 One's a very famous one.
00:26:55.200 They call it the M&M murders.
00:26:57.280 Is this the one with Jerry?
00:26:59.260 No, it's the one with Billy McCarthy and Jimmy Moraglia.
00:27:03.000 Jerry.
00:27:03.520 You're talking about Jerry Listener?
00:27:04.880 I'm talking about Jerry Listener.
00:27:05.860 That's a different one.
00:27:06.700 That wasn't as famous as the M&M.
00:27:09.000 If you've seen the movie Casino, the guy's head in the vice.
00:27:11.780 Mm-hmm.
00:27:13.200 That was the M&M murders.
00:27:15.340 Don't make me be a bad guy.
00:27:16.740 Come on.
00:27:17.520 That's a pretty tough scene to watch.
00:27:19.280 In real life, his head was jammed down in the vice.
00:27:22.880 Face forward, down.
00:27:24.720 It wasn't up.
00:27:26.540 I didn't do that.
00:27:28.420 But you were there.
00:27:29.820 Yeah, but let's say Tony done it.
00:27:33.880 Interesting.
00:27:34.920 So here's a question for you.
00:27:37.920 I was in the military.
00:27:39.440 Okay.
00:27:39.740 And in the military, you know, you talk to special forces, you know, Delta.
00:27:44.780 You talk to a lot of these guys.
00:27:45.920 Eventually, it becomes part of your job where you don't necessarily look at it as,
00:27:50.840 I did something and I killed this person.
00:27:53.560 Right.
00:27:53.760 How was it for you as a first time when it happened?
00:27:56.480 Like, was it just kind of like, this is my job, this is what I'm supposed to do?
00:27:58.920 Or was there a part of it where you afterwards felt guilty, thought about the family, the kids,
00:28:03.640 people, or no, cold?
00:28:05.200 Here's what my job is.
00:28:06.160 I'm doing it.
00:28:06.560 I'm good to go.
00:28:07.360 Well, I didn't look at it as a job.
00:28:09.600 I looked at it as an order that I received.
00:28:12.920 I knew there was, you don't get no paycheck for killing nobody.
00:28:17.840 You know, like when there was, you know, did you get money?
00:28:20.640 No, you don't get a paycheck.
00:28:21.700 You get stripes, though.
00:28:23.180 Yeah, I guess you could call it stripes or a notch.
00:28:25.740 I don't know.
00:28:26.220 I never thought of it that way myself.
00:28:29.200 I thought of it was, if they come to you and they tell you, Frankie or Pete,
00:28:35.380 I want you to kill Pete over there, or Harry, you don't ask why.
00:28:41.960 They wouldn't come to you if they didn't think you would do it.
00:28:45.000 If you say, no, I don't want to do it, you're going to die.
00:28:49.620 So they come to you because they know you would do it for them.
00:28:52.600 That's a very common, when you ask people who have killed, whether it's military or you ask gangsters, you know.
00:29:01.300 Like being in the military.
00:29:02.020 Yeah, it's very much where I don't feel guilty because it's an order.
00:29:05.280 I don't really do it.
00:29:05.920 Somebody told me to do it.
00:29:07.000 But I try to tell people, and people start like, oh, like the military, how could you disgrace our military?
00:29:13.020 I'm not disgracing our military.
00:29:15.360 But that's the way you would take it, as an order from up above, a lieutenant or a sergeant.
00:29:19.500 So let me ask you, did it ever, like, did it ever haunt you at all with the decisions on what you did?
00:29:24.120 Did it ever, like, middle of the night, you're like, shit, I really did this tonight?
00:29:26.860 No, it bothered me.
00:29:28.060 I didn't, I mean, it's not something you relish in doing.
00:29:33.220 But after I rolled and seen the light, let's say, of course it bothered me.
00:29:41.020 Interesting.
00:29:41.600 And I think about it.
00:29:43.720 I think about the faces all the time.
00:29:46.100 Do you really?
00:29:46.800 Yeah.
00:29:47.200 Till today?
00:29:48.220 Hell yeah.
00:29:49.380 I could picture their faces, like, right now looking at you.
00:29:52.400 How do you process it?
00:29:53.400 Like, how does it happen when you're sleeping?
00:29:55.040 Once it's done, it's over with, there's nothing I could do.
00:29:57.380 I can't, you can't bring them back once it's done.
00:30:00.100 Am I sorry for my sins?
00:30:01.300 You bet I am.
00:30:02.920 You bet I am.
00:30:04.620 Interesting.
00:30:05.340 So let me ask you, so at this point, you're in Chicago, you're doing what you're doing.
00:30:09.060 At what point did you make your way out to Vegas?
00:30:12.540 I had several businesses going at the time in Chicago.
00:30:19.300 So around in 1978 or the early part of 1979, I had a disco and I just got rid of it.
00:30:28.960 And Joe Lombardo, I remember I mentioned his name earlier.
00:30:32.740 We call him Joe.
00:30:33.540 You didn't call him Joey the Clown to his face.
00:30:35.640 You'd get killed.
00:30:36.960 So Joey comes into my place and he shakes my hand.
00:30:40.940 He said, congratulations.
00:30:42.680 And I thought he was congratulating me because I sold a joint.
00:30:46.740 And I said, yeah.
00:30:47.640 He says, nah, I got another step I got to do in life.
00:30:50.300 He said, what are you talking about?
00:30:51.260 You're moving to Vegas next week.
00:30:54.460 And I looked at him and I said, well, I guess I'm moving to Vegas.
00:30:57.560 The reason why I knew what he was talking about, because prior to that, Tony had asked me, Tony Splacho, four or five times to move to Vegas with him to be his backup guy.
00:31:11.720 Was he already in Vegas or no?
00:31:13.100 He was in Vegas since 1972.
00:31:15.260 Oh, so way before you, like seven years before.
00:31:17.820 Don't forget, I was in jail.
00:31:19.480 I didn't get out until 74.
00:31:20.640 That's right, six years.
00:31:21.240 Yeah, that's right.
00:31:22.660 Got it.
00:31:23.180 So I said, all right, I guess I'm moving to Vegas, but I can't do it in a week, Joe.
00:31:29.800 He says, do it in the fastest amount of time you can.
00:31:32.960 So like in a couple weeks, three weeks, I did move to Vegas.
00:31:37.220 And that's when I knew that my functions were going to be in Vegas.
00:31:41.580 Did I know there was a skim going on?
00:31:43.360 Yeah.
00:31:43.800 Did I know how it was going on at that time?
00:31:46.180 No, I didn't want to know, but I did find out.
00:31:48.720 Of course I didn't want to know.
00:31:50.100 That's one more person that knows.
00:31:51.720 That's one more person that could die.
00:31:54.260 So what I knew what I had to do, I had to protect the hotels that the Chicago Outfit controlled.
00:32:00.620 There were four hotels.
00:32:02.220 It was the Stardust, the Fremont, the Hacienda, and the Marina.
00:32:07.160 Four properties that we controlled.
00:32:11.420 You know, in other words, they had a guy, they put him in there.
00:32:14.600 His name was Alan Glick.
00:32:16.360 He was one of these rich real estate developers or whatever he was.
00:32:19.840 I didn't know the guy personally, I just knew who he was.
00:32:23.760 And Lefty was in there, he thought he was going to be in there to manage the gambling part of it.
00:32:30.280 But being that he had a record, he couldn't do that.
00:32:33.440 So they made him in charge of entertainment.
00:32:35.720 But he still was over to oversee the skim.
00:32:40.120 Lefty was.
00:32:41.120 Lefty.
00:32:41.500 He never watched him take it out.
00:32:44.880 He didn't know.
00:32:45.380 He just received the money.
00:32:47.300 As I say on my tour, he received the money once a week.
00:32:52.060 And then he would drop it off.
00:32:54.360 And if you've seen the movie Casino, that's the direction it went.
00:32:59.560 Got it.
00:33:00.220 And what ways did you make money here?
00:33:02.400 Pardon me?
00:33:02.980 What ways did you make money here?
00:33:04.280 Obviously, there's a lot of different opportunities.
00:33:05.640 There were several ways that they make money.
00:33:06.360 There were several ways.
00:33:09.040 When I came out, Tony told me that what my functions were going to be.
00:33:13.440 To make sure nobody cheated in these hotels.
00:33:18.800 To shake down bookmakers, guys that were doing illegal bookmaking.
00:33:24.280 Get them for 20% or more.
00:33:26.120 And I said, well, these guys are connected.
00:33:27.940 The guys in different cities.
00:33:29.840 Don't worry about it.
00:33:31.700 He says, just do it.
00:33:32.920 He says, you'll see what happens.
00:33:34.640 I said, I send my guys out.
00:33:37.420 Now, before that, I told him, Tony, these guys got to earn a living.
00:33:43.920 If we muscle these bookmakers, you're getting the money.
00:33:46.780 They ain't going to do it for nothing.
00:33:48.880 He said, tell them they could steal out or they could do whatever they want in Vegas.
00:33:54.240 They could what?
00:33:54.980 Steal.
00:33:55.740 Rob.
00:33:56.200 From you?
00:33:56.880 From them?
00:33:57.480 From homes, businesses.
00:33:59.520 Oh, I see.
00:34:00.340 Which was a no-no at the time.
00:34:02.620 I said, you sure you got the okay from Chicago?
00:34:06.140 Because of what's going on on her?
00:34:08.580 You know, with us and the money in the casino?
00:34:10.800 He says, it's all taken care of.
00:34:13.140 Your guys could do what they want to do.
00:34:16.140 I said, okay.
00:34:17.120 So, I told my guys, and man, it was like opening up a can of worms.
00:34:21.920 So, we got that name, the Hole-in-Wall Gang.
00:34:24.080 Yeah.
00:34:26.280 So, I did my little thing, catching cheaters in hotels, muscle and bookmakers, sending that
00:34:32.080 money back to Tony.
00:34:33.300 But, what I found out in doing that, the first guy was from Boston.
00:34:38.120 I went and put the muscle on him.
00:34:39.600 I sent Larry Newman.
00:34:40.760 He worked for me.
00:34:41.500 He was a killing machine, this guy.
00:34:43.860 He also came here from Chicago?
00:34:45.220 Yes.
00:34:46.240 I met him in prison.
00:34:47.220 He was doing 125 years for a triple murder.
00:34:50.260 He only did 11 years.
00:34:51.640 Where is he originally from?
00:34:53.220 Some suburb in Chicago.
00:34:54.820 Well, in Chicago.
00:34:55.840 Yeah.
00:34:56.100 Okay, got it.
00:34:57.260 He was a crazy guy.
00:34:59.240 Crazy.
00:34:59.980 Crazier than Sam Madman or whatever?
00:35:02.560 Sicker.
00:35:03.220 I should say sicker.
00:35:04.220 Sicker than him?
00:35:04.440 Oh, yeah.
00:35:04.960 Oh, yeah.
00:35:05.300 He was a sick man.
00:35:06.220 He would kill anybody.
00:35:08.360 He would do things to people that are disgusting.
00:35:11.180 I mean, if you kill somebody, shoot them.
00:35:13.900 He would chop them up and everything.
00:35:15.860 He was a sick man.
00:35:17.760 So, anyway, I told Tony this.
00:35:20.060 And Tony said, tell your guys they could do this, they could do that, and all this.
00:35:24.340 I said, all right.
00:35:25.640 He said, then he told me, sorry, back off of this guy from Boston.
00:35:32.160 I said, why?
00:35:32.820 Is he paying up?
00:35:34.180 He said, yeah.
00:35:34.860 He said, I talked to his bosses in Boston, and they told me, all right, Tony, look out
00:35:41.020 for my guy, and we'll cut you in on my reaction.
00:35:44.740 So, you see the game he was playing?
00:35:47.900 He'd tell them, I'll protect your guy.
00:35:50.780 They'd tell Tony, from other cities, New York, everywhere.
00:35:54.900 We'll take care of you, Tony.
00:35:56.120 Make sure that nobody muscles our bookmaker.
00:35:58.760 And that's what happened.
00:35:59.720 So, we used to go out and do this for him, which opened up the door for my gang, you
00:36:05.720 know, my crew.
00:36:07.320 What's the biggest hit you guys had here?
00:36:10.180 The biggest what?
00:36:11.060 Biggest hit.
00:36:11.820 Biggest jewelry.
00:36:13.600 I know you guys did a lot of different things.
00:36:15.140 Yeah, a lot of different things.
00:36:16.280 You know, a couple hundred thousand in jewelry, maybe 80,000 in cash.
00:36:24.260 You know, but it was plentiful.
00:36:25.820 In other words, at that time, nobody, people didn't report to the government their tips,
00:36:33.760 and they keep the stuff in the house.
00:36:35.760 I mean, I opened up a restaurant in three days out there, and that's all we did was
00:36:41.660 burglarize three houses.
00:36:43.780 Here?
00:36:44.540 Yeah, it was all cash.
00:36:45.580 And you had a restaurant?
00:36:46.860 Opened it up with the cash.
00:36:48.460 Did you do anything with Johnny Russo at all, or no?
00:36:51.340 I knew Johnny Russo.
00:36:52.500 He was in the movie The Godfather.
00:36:54.000 He was in the movie The Godfather.
00:36:54.760 Yeah, Johnny Russo's a good guy.
00:36:56.560 I told Johnny Russo one thing.
00:36:58.840 I said, Johnny, you know what you are?
00:37:00.980 You're the guys that portray me.
00:37:02.620 I'm the real thing.
00:37:04.020 He's, I know, I know.
00:37:05.100 He's a good guy, Johnny.
00:37:06.040 I was playing with him.
00:37:07.180 What year was that?
00:37:07.940 How long ago was that?
00:37:09.480 78, 79.
00:37:10.960 Gianni was connected to Costello, though.
00:37:13.160 Gianni, years ago, he had a relationship with Frank.
00:37:15.920 Whatever, he probably had a relationship with him, but he knew us guys.
00:37:19.680 I knew Johnny.
00:37:20.160 And he had a nightclub here, I think, for like a school.
00:37:22.160 Yeah, I was in jail when he had it.
00:37:23.180 He killed somebody there.
00:37:24.560 Yeah, yeah.
00:37:25.080 I lived at the Marie Antoinette when I first moved out there, and he used to date a woman
00:37:30.220 in that building, Deanne Warwick.
00:37:32.220 Mm-hmm.
00:37:33.180 You see?
00:37:34.460 So I'd see him every day, and I'd see her.
00:37:36.820 Why'd you live there?
00:37:37.620 Was it intentional?
00:37:38.480 I bought two condos in there.
00:37:40.260 Oh, okay.
00:37:40.920 When I first moved out there.
00:37:42.540 Got it.
00:37:43.020 Then I was told I can't live there no more.
00:37:45.580 By the Homeowners Association, because of who I am.
00:37:50.140 The cops were coming in there.
00:37:51.820 Constantly.
00:37:52.460 Cops.
00:37:53.240 Yeah.
00:37:53.380 They'd raid my place all the time.
00:37:55.380 Interesting.
00:37:56.440 Interesting.
00:37:56.820 So let me ask you.
00:37:58.200 I mean, obviously, this thing's going.
00:38:00.380 You're doing what you're doing.
00:38:01.680 At what point did things turn for you?
00:38:04.060 At what point did things turn with you and Tony?
00:38:07.500 Because I know FBI got involved.
00:38:08.960 They started kind of watching what you guys were doing.
00:38:11.460 That never bothered me with the FBI being involved.
00:38:14.980 As a matter of fact, I know it was like a security blanket.
00:38:18.660 You know, who's going to hit us?
00:38:20.100 Who's going to kill us?
00:38:21.000 With these cops watching us all day long.
00:38:25.660 What bothered me is Tony was never contributing to our cases, like financially.
00:38:35.880 Wasn't Tony's attorney, Oscar Goodman, that ended up being your attorney as well?
00:38:39.940 He represented you, right?
00:38:41.540 He was a co-attorney.
00:38:45.280 He was a co-attorney.
00:38:46.720 Yeah.
00:38:47.080 John Mama was my attorney.
00:38:48.500 He was an advisor.
00:38:49.700 Got it.
00:38:50.080 So that's all he did.
00:38:51.420 How was your relationship with Oscar?
00:38:53.580 It was good at the time.
00:38:56.080 But Oscar got mad at me after I rolled.
00:39:01.360 And that's his business.
00:39:02.980 But I made a statement.
00:39:04.120 He used to wear a Rolex watch.
00:39:06.240 And it was a knockoff.
00:39:07.860 It was a phony.
00:39:09.720 So one day, when I was going to court, I didn't have a tie.
00:39:13.900 So Tony said, you got to have it.
00:39:15.620 Oscar said, where's your tie?
00:39:17.720 I don't wear ties.
00:39:18.600 I wear sport jackets.
00:39:19.700 So Tony took his tie off.
00:39:22.700 I said, I don't make knots.
00:39:24.180 So Oscar says, I'll make it for you.
00:39:26.440 So Oscar made the knot.
00:39:28.060 And as he's making a knot, I'm looking at his watch.
00:39:30.980 I said, you got a phony Rolex on.
00:39:33.420 He said, because I don't want guys like you to rob me.
00:39:36.360 So I said that.
00:39:37.480 And it went all over the air after I rolled.
00:39:39.840 So it embarrassed them.
00:39:42.340 So then he said, the guy don't even know how to make a knot on his tie.
00:39:45.620 Who cares?
00:39:47.300 And what is this in the 70s?
00:39:49.120 Is this 70s, 80s?
00:39:49.960 Same era?
00:39:50.260 It was in the 70s.
00:39:50.960 It was in the 70s.
00:39:51.580 It was 80s, the early 80s.
00:39:52.780 Have you guys reconnected at all since then?
00:39:54.820 Oscar?
00:39:55.500 Not at all.
00:39:56.860 There's no need to.
00:39:57.960 There's no need to.
00:39:58.800 He stays away from me.
00:40:00.180 When we were doing the movie, he was on the set.
00:40:03.100 He used to see me.
00:40:03.900 He didn't come near me.
00:40:05.240 Who would ask you the questions on the movie?
00:40:06.840 Who was asking you questions?
00:40:08.060 I worked right with Martin Scorsese.
00:40:10.060 Oh, you worked directly with?
00:40:11.100 I sat in the chair right next to him.
00:40:13.340 So what questions were they asking you?
00:40:15.480 How was Tony out of this?
00:40:15.920 How did that scene go?
00:40:16.680 Did he use that type of gun?
00:40:18.040 Is this the way you shoot somebody?
00:40:19.480 That specific.
00:40:19.960 Is this the way you break a hole in the wall?
00:40:22.540 Whatever we did, you know, in real life, he asked me.
00:40:25.620 So anything you've seen in that movie was directions for me.
00:40:29.480 Marty sat right next to me.
00:40:31.660 And was Pesci asking you questions?
00:40:33.740 Was Frank asking you?
00:40:34.060 Pesci did too, and so did De Niro.
00:40:35.860 De Niro as well.
00:40:36.800 Yeah.
00:40:37.820 Got it.
00:40:38.820 And they were asking you what?
00:40:39.980 Frank Vincent.
00:40:41.120 Just how this guy acted, their language.
00:40:44.220 Like one particular scene, they called it Vig.
00:40:48.080 So I told Marty, what are you saying, Vig?
00:40:49.900 I said, we call it juice, you know, money.
00:40:55.620 You know, you collect interest, it's juice.
00:40:58.000 And then they were saying something about, they call it, I call it merchandise, stolen swag.
00:41:05.120 He says something about swag in the movie.
00:41:07.240 I said, what's swag?
00:41:08.580 He says, stolen stuff, stolen property.
00:41:11.360 I said, we call it merch, short for merchandise.
00:41:13.940 So I changed a lot of scenes.
00:41:16.820 The language, another scene, Frank Vincent said, you jerk off, he said to somebody.
00:41:22.620 And so, Marty, we never use that term.
00:41:25.260 We say jag off, just like it said, jag off.
00:41:28.520 So Frank Vincent had to change the scene around.
00:41:32.320 Unbelievable.
00:41:33.660 It's the truth.
00:41:35.540 How was Pesci, by the way?
00:41:36.660 How was Pesci with it?
00:41:37.380 Pesci was all right.
00:41:38.200 I got along with Pesci.
00:41:39.300 Yeah.
00:41:40.220 Did anybody, on the set, you didn't get along with?
00:41:42.260 I got along with everybody.
00:41:43.040 Okay, yeah, sir.
00:41:43.740 So it was a good experience for you.
00:41:46.020 Well, I never was going to become a director or anything, you know.
00:41:48.800 Sure.
00:41:49.580 I thought maybe one day to do a movie, never became that.
00:41:54.960 And I was very close with Nick Bledgy.
00:41:57.980 Very close to him.
00:41:59.160 He's a good friend of mine, Nick.
00:42:00.440 So, you know, when you look at the history of it, you got Frank Costello, Lucky Luciano,
00:42:07.220 you got Meyer Lansky, and you got Bugsy.
00:42:10.440 And I know you and I were talking briefly about Meyer Lansky.
00:42:13.720 Who was, how was Meyer Lansky viewed in this whole thing?
00:42:17.860 You know, you watch Bugsy and you kind of see who he was.
00:42:20.560 Or you watch the movie Mobsters with him and he's playing this role in Meyer Lowkey,
00:42:25.620 but he made a few hundred million dollars.
00:42:27.360 How did you guys view Meyer Lansky?
00:42:29.120 How do we view him?
00:42:31.020 From Chicago, because he wasn't a Chicago.
00:42:32.480 I viewed him as a Jew that, as a Jew that had a lot of connections
00:42:38.120 and he made a lot of money for the Chicago outfit and the New York.
00:42:42.380 And the Chicago outfit.
00:42:43.560 Oh, well, that's the way I viewed it.
00:42:44.880 Got it.
00:42:45.000 That's the way I thought about it.
00:42:46.580 Whether he did or he didn't, I didn't know.
00:42:49.120 But that's the way I thought about him.
00:42:51.300 And I gave this guy a lot of respect over that, you know.
00:42:55.920 So there was a lot of respect in there for him?
00:42:57.620 Oh, yeah.
00:42:57.740 Was he a feared guy or was he a respected guy?
00:43:01.220 Was he a feared guy?
00:43:02.480 Was he feared or was he respected?
00:43:04.360 I respected him.
00:43:05.860 God.
00:43:06.300 Frank, who were the ones that were feared?
00:43:08.160 Names that were feared?
00:43:09.140 Because it's a big difference.
00:43:09.880 The names that were feared?
00:43:11.060 Names that were feared.
00:43:12.200 Names where you say, you know, this person was feared.
00:43:15.520 Like you take Sammy, you know, you talk about the madman he was feared.
00:43:19.680 You talk about maybe Larry Newman was a little bit off and he was a bit feared.
00:43:24.140 Who else was the feared personality?
00:43:25.900 Man, there was a lot of guys.
00:43:27.900 Angelo Lopetri.
00:43:31.960 Chucky Nicoletti.
00:43:37.180 What's his name?
00:43:38.140 I got that.
00:43:38.600 There's so many names, I'm losing their names.
00:43:41.940 Was it Giancana Field?
00:43:43.060 Giancana.
00:43:44.740 Yeah.
00:43:45.060 He didn't fear a guy like Tony Ocardo because you knew he would give the direction.
00:43:50.420 Joey Iupa would give the directions.
00:43:52.580 Rico would give the directions on hits and stuff like that.
00:43:59.140 There's this guy Frankie Calabrese that came along.
00:44:01.820 Frankie Calabrese, yeah.
00:44:02.700 Yeah, I knew Frankie Calabrese when he was nobody.
00:44:05.520 Nobody.
00:44:06.160 Believe me when I tell you.
00:44:08.660 And he was feared.
00:44:09.840 Yeah.
00:44:10.260 Frankie come to me and wanted to get in the outfit.
00:44:13.180 He wanted me to, excuse me.
00:44:16.040 He wanted me to hook him up with the outfit.
00:44:21.120 And I told Tony, and Tony said, we didn't want nothing to do with the guy.
00:44:24.880 Frankie was a machine.
00:44:25.920 He worked for a union then.
00:44:27.920 Then Frankie became a feared hitman.
00:44:32.580 And there was Harry Aylerman.
00:44:35.120 There was Butchie Pestracelli.
00:44:37.340 There was James Turtorello.
00:44:40.120 I could go on and on.
00:44:42.100 There's a list of hitmen.
00:44:43.240 But there's a reputation of these guys that were feared.
00:44:45.680 Maybe they were not the biggest earners, but they were feared in the streets.
00:44:49.360 Some of them were very big earners.
00:44:51.980 Earners and fear.
00:44:52.860 Yeah, and hitters.
00:44:54.220 Got it.
00:44:55.020 So you're following up with Tony.
00:44:57.420 I mean, when you read about it, you guys are best friends for a long time.
00:45:00.240 You guys have been friends since you were in Chicago running the streets.
00:45:03.120 And you were doing the shoe shining and all this stuff.
00:45:05.100 Since 12 years old.
00:45:06.280 So when you read about it, you see the story.
00:45:08.980 When the FBI came and you guys were kind of going through it.
00:45:11.440 And you're not saying anything.
00:45:12.380 You're not talking to the FBI agents.
00:45:14.080 You're not saying anything to them.
00:45:15.480 And you heard the recording.
00:45:17.480 You know, what was it on the recording you heard that kind of threw you off?
00:45:20.740 It threw me off?
00:45:21.660 Yeah.
00:45:21.800 I was, I got locked up.
00:45:25.080 And the first day I got locked up, I was in the county jail out there.
00:45:28.600 Clark.
00:45:29.220 Clark County Jail.
00:45:30.620 And I received a visit from an agent.
00:45:32.320 And he said, we got information that there's a contract that on your life.
00:45:38.420 And I told him to get the fuck out of the room.
00:45:41.840 I knew the games they play.
00:45:44.300 So when he got to the door, he says, if we could show you positive proof that there's a contract that on your life, would you cooperate?
00:45:53.720 I says, I can't tell you that.
00:45:55.440 So I walked out of the room, this conference room, and they brought me down to, I was in that dormitory, and they brought me to a cell.
00:46:06.520 I said, why are you putting me in a cell?
00:46:08.920 And he said, because there's a contract out on you.
00:46:11.380 This is the Clark County Jailer.
00:46:14.800 So I went in.
00:46:15.640 Just before I went in the cell, they called me back out.
00:46:18.500 And they said, they want to see you back upstairs again.
00:46:22.680 I said, I don't want to go up.
00:46:23.740 They said, you got to.
00:46:24.800 So I went up.
00:46:25.540 And when I went up, there was a couple agents there.
00:46:28.780 I don't remember their names.
00:46:30.320 They had these reel-to-reel recordings, and the earphones, and they had transcripts.
00:46:37.960 And he told me, if you don't mind, listen to it and tell me who's talking at them.
00:46:45.440 So I listened.
00:46:46.360 Then he interrupted me.
00:46:47.360 He said, who is the voices?
00:46:48.360 I said, I can't tell you right now.
00:46:50.960 I want to see.
00:46:51.740 I want to hear the whole thing.
00:46:53.200 That's when I heard the voices.
00:46:55.540 And it was two familiar voices.
00:46:59.020 And the one guy said, what's going on out there?
00:47:02.060 He called him T, short for Tony.
00:47:05.280 He says, it's not me.
00:47:06.940 It's the other guy.
00:47:10.300 And I'm listening to the other guy.
00:47:11.820 He's got to be referring to me, I'm thinking.
00:47:14.140 He's like a loose cannon.
00:47:16.600 He's in the can right now.
00:47:18.560 They locked him up.
00:47:19.980 I can't control him.
00:47:22.500 He should be making the bad pretty soon.
00:47:26.660 He says, he's the one that's doing all of that?
00:47:28.840 And he says, yes.
00:47:30.460 He's going to clean your dirty laundry.
00:47:32.140 Now, I didn't fall out of a tree.
00:47:36.760 I've heard that term used too many times.
00:47:40.160 So I put the earphones down.
00:47:41.820 I said, I want to go back to the cell.
00:47:44.620 He says, do you know the voices?
00:47:46.260 I said, yeah, I know the voices.
00:47:48.780 You want to tell me?
00:47:49.820 It's not at this time.
00:47:51.980 Are you ready to cooperate?
00:47:53.380 I said, not at this time.
00:47:54.980 I need to think about it.
00:47:57.500 Locked me in my cell.
00:47:59.780 I contemplated several things to do with myself physically.
00:48:03.540 Then I says, if I do that, he won.
00:48:06.060 Meaning he won, like suicide?
00:48:07.480 Huh?
00:48:07.980 Suicide.
00:48:08.660 Absolutely.
00:48:10.400 Because I never was brought up that way to roll.
00:48:13.360 To be not an informant.
00:48:15.700 There's a big difference between being an informant and a witness.
00:48:20.120 I never was brought up that way to testify.
00:48:22.280 And it rolled, when you use that word, that's like snitching.
00:48:26.240 Is it the same thing?
00:48:26.960 Yeah, exactly.
00:48:27.300 Okay, got it.
00:48:28.120 I wasn't raised this way.
00:48:31.400 So I said, nah, I can't do that.
00:48:34.680 I said, first of all, I don't have the guts to kill myself.
00:48:37.760 Second of all, if I did it, Tony winds up a winner.
00:48:41.780 It's me and it's Blacho.
00:48:43.620 So I waited until the morning.
00:48:47.400 In the morning, I asked the guard, could I make a phone call?
00:48:53.680 He said, what do you need?
00:48:54.580 I said, I need to talk to them agents that were here.
00:48:58.040 He says, we'll get right back to you.
00:49:00.480 Within 30 seconds, the door opened.
00:49:02.680 I said, Jesus Christ.
00:49:04.340 I thought maybe the agents were sleeping in the room upstairs.
00:49:07.640 Wow.
00:49:08.080 That's how fast they were there.
00:49:10.040 And I told them, you know, I'll cooperate.
00:49:13.880 They instantly moved me out of that jail, put me in a motel.
00:49:18.760 I had armored guards everywhere you could possibly think of.
00:49:22.620 And then they, he started interviewing me, the one guy.
00:49:30.160 And he wanted me to talk about murders and I didn't want to.
00:49:33.800 They want you to talk about murders first to show how sincere you are about being a witness.
00:49:38.660 And I said, this is something I've never done before.
00:49:42.540 I said, this is a hard thing for you.
00:49:44.680 You're asking me to do it.
00:49:45.800 I said, I can't do it right now.
00:49:47.620 So I talked about other crimes.
00:49:49.960 Then at the very end, he says, you've got to talk about murders.
00:49:54.020 He says, then you'll get your immunity.
00:49:57.460 But he says, we didn't read you your rights.
00:50:00.380 If we read you your rights and you talked about murders, then we can hold you to it.
00:50:06.860 But as long as we didn't read you your rights, we can't hold you to it.
00:50:10.840 That's something, though.
00:50:11.600 I never knew that.
00:50:13.540 So I had to take a chance.
00:50:15.020 What was I going to do?
00:50:16.880 So I took a chance.
00:50:19.560 As soon as I said that, he got up and walked out of the room.
00:50:22.700 He said, another guy will be talking to you.
00:50:24.700 I said, I walked into a fucking trap.
00:50:27.200 That's the first thing out of my mind.
00:50:29.040 Because I can't trust these guys.
00:50:30.660 All my life, they're chasing me around, trying to kill me, put me in jail.
00:50:35.500 All of a sudden, I said about murder.
00:50:38.640 Another guy come in the room, talking to me.
00:50:41.720 And I was friends with this guy till this day, the agent.
00:50:46.460 Dennis Arnley, his name is.
00:50:48.460 You were friends with him till this day?
00:50:49.560 Till this day.
00:50:50.140 Really?
00:50:51.200 How did a conversation when you speak to him?
00:50:52.100 And those wives and kids, everything.
00:50:53.580 How did you talk when you talked to him?
00:50:54.880 What did a conversation?
00:50:55.700 We're friends.
00:50:56.300 We talked about everyday affairs.
00:50:59.700 We're friends.
00:51:01.400 I built up a trust in me and a trust in him.
00:51:04.200 Get out of here.
00:51:04.980 I'm serious.
00:51:06.620 The FBI agent?
00:51:08.080 He's retired.
00:51:09.560 Wow.
00:51:10.620 Several of them.
00:51:12.680 And several Metro cops that I'm friends with all.
00:51:16.880 To this day, the same guys that used to chase me around, trying to kill me.
00:51:21.280 We looked at it in a different...
00:51:22.620 It was a ball game.
00:51:23.920 We played...
00:51:24.560 It was a ball game.
00:51:26.100 They just had more people in their gang than us.
00:51:28.500 Yeah, that makes sense.
00:51:29.460 Frank, what did it do to you with your relationship with Tony?
00:51:34.320 Like, how did you view this friendship now of nearly 30-something years, 40-something years?
00:51:38.960 It destroyed me.
00:51:39.740 Yeah.
00:51:40.180 It destroyed me that a friend would do this to me.
00:51:43.880 My best friend.
00:51:44.700 I love this guy like my brother.
00:51:48.420 For him to put...
00:51:50.160 Cast all the weight on me, it was devastating.
00:51:53.440 You know, I never thought he'd do that, but he had to take the heat off of him because
00:51:58.400 he was doing wrong.
00:52:00.280 You see, he got paid back in the end, right?
00:52:03.640 Yeah, of course.
00:52:04.520 I mean, it's the main scene.
00:52:05.200 I could go back to Chicago tomorrow and live there.
00:52:07.700 You could go back to Chicago.
00:52:08.740 You bet you I could.
00:52:09.480 No one would do anything to you?
00:52:10.560 You bet I could.
00:52:11.420 Really?
00:52:12.940 They knew.
00:52:13.680 They knew back there.
00:52:15.460 They knew.
00:52:15.960 A lot of guys back there said, why would Frankie roll?
00:52:19.040 There has to be a reason would cause him to do this.
00:52:23.380 He would never do that, and I would never do that.
00:52:26.500 Once he got the head, was there validation where your credibility went up?
00:52:30.320 My credibility...
00:52:31.820 With who?
00:52:33.620 With Chicago outfit.
00:52:34.820 I would never go back there and try to be a gangster.
00:52:39.520 No, that's not what I'm saying.
00:52:40.560 What I'm saying is, so you're doing what you're doing.
00:52:43.380 You go and you roll.
00:52:44.400 My credibility as far as what I've done?
00:52:46.400 Yeah, meaning, so who's really the one?
00:52:49.160 So maybe it was Tony.
00:52:50.340 Maybe it was you.
00:52:51.080 How did Chicago view you and Tony?
00:52:52.740 First of all, they didn't approve of me rolling, which they never would.
00:52:58.800 Of course they would, yeah.
00:53:00.200 They never would approve of it, and I don't blame them.
00:53:02.280 They wouldn't kill me if I went back there.
00:53:05.540 They know I had to do what I'd done.
00:53:08.900 We're not going to sit down and have pasta and share pasta together.
00:53:13.040 I have no fear of my life, absolutely none, of going back there.
00:53:19.140 At one time I did, I had fear.
00:53:21.240 At what point did that fear go away?
00:53:23.600 It took 23 or 25 years.
00:53:26.420 Oh, so the fear is a reason, like two decades that has gone away.
00:53:29.020 A decade that's gone away.
00:53:29.600 When I went in, it was, I've been 34 years.
00:53:34.180 Got it.
00:53:34.860 So 25 years.
00:53:36.220 Got it.
00:53:36.620 When I first put my first book out, that's when I opened up the door.
00:53:41.480 The day Tony died, what was your immediate reaction?
00:53:46.060 Who called you?
00:53:47.140 Like what happened to you when that happened?
00:53:48.780 I was called prior to him being found.
00:53:54.740 So you knew this was going to take place.
00:53:56.300 I heard it on the news.
00:53:58.080 I was in the witness protection program in Mobile, Alabama.
00:54:01.920 Oh, no, but did you know that this event was coming or no?
00:54:04.620 You heard it the day it happened.
00:54:05.720 I heard it on TV that the Splatcho brothers were missing.
00:54:13.220 I said, wow.
00:54:15.060 I said, well, they're dead.
00:54:16.600 I thought to myself.
00:54:18.300 Then I get a call from the marshal service, and the marshal service says to me,
00:54:22.260 the FBI want to speak to you.
00:54:26.580 So I go talk to the FBI.
00:54:29.580 They come over.
00:54:30.740 They didn't come over.
00:54:31.840 We talked on the phone.
00:54:33.140 That same guy, Arnoldy.
00:54:34.760 Friend.
00:54:35.560 Yeah, agent.
00:54:37.180 He says, Tony and Michael didn't show up for court.
00:54:41.360 Do you know where they would have ran off to?
00:54:44.520 I said, they didn't run anywhere.
00:54:47.040 He said, how do you know that?
00:54:48.400 I said, because I know Tony.
00:54:49.520 Tony, I says, if I was a guest of mine, I'd tell you they're dead right now.
00:54:55.940 How do you know that?
00:54:57.220 He said, because I know Tony ain't going to run.
00:54:59.600 I says, I know it.
00:55:01.240 Tony knows that you're going to get caught sooner or later.
00:55:06.400 I've been around this guy all my life, Dennis.
00:55:08.300 I know he's not going to run.
00:55:11.060 He says, really?
00:55:12.140 I said, yeah, you'll see.
00:55:14.640 Four days later, the body showed up in the cornfield.
00:55:17.260 He said, where do you think they were killed afterwards?
00:55:22.020 I said, they weren't killed in no cornfield.
00:55:24.860 He said, where?
00:55:25.460 I said, probably in a basement, some house.
00:55:27.860 Where?
00:55:28.180 I said, either in Cicero, Illinois, or Bensonville.
00:55:34.560 Why do you say that?
00:55:36.100 Because we got people that live in them towns.
00:55:38.940 And you could do stuff in their houses.
00:55:42.520 That was it.
00:55:43.380 Interesting.
00:55:44.720 Years later, with Sammy the Bull, when that happened with Sammy, how did you view Sammy?
00:55:51.480 I figured the guy had to do what he had to do.
00:55:53.780 I figured Gotti threw him to the wolves.
00:55:57.420 Similar story?
00:55:58.300 Yeah, similar story.
00:56:00.040 I never disrespected Sammy.
00:56:01.980 I always felt as though Sammy was a man like me.
00:56:04.880 I consider myself a man.
00:56:06.280 It's Sammy a man.
00:56:08.320 Did you guys ever speak or no?
00:56:10.000 Huh?
00:56:10.380 Did you ever speak or no?
00:56:12.300 You and Sammy.
00:56:13.120 Okay, got it.
00:56:14.000 You know, Sammy's got his own private life.
00:56:16.540 I know he did 20 years, the poor guy.
00:56:19.020 You know, but that's, how do you get involved in drugs?
00:56:22.860 You know, I don't know what the story is there.
00:56:25.320 Final thoughts before we go into the books here.
00:56:29.560 What is the, you know, conclusion you got from living that life?
00:56:33.560 Obviously, it's a whole different story today where a lot of that doesn't exist.
00:56:38.720 When you said you had a moment two years after you were, you know, you rolled,
00:56:43.160 what happened to you when you're like, you know what, this is not a life I want to live.
00:56:45.680 I want to live a changed life.
00:56:46.700 What were those events?
00:56:47.840 What was that process like?
00:56:49.180 Well, you know, you're around legitimate people and you see how they live.
00:56:54.920 And, you know, even legitimate people have a bad side to them, you know.
00:57:01.160 And I start going to church and stuff like that.
00:57:06.920 I always, I was raised a Catholic.
00:57:10.180 I went to Catholic school as a young man.
00:57:13.980 So I went back to the religion.
00:57:15.880 And then I stopped going to church and I just know that there is a God and a Jesus, you know.
00:57:22.040 And I do my prayer and that's all.
00:57:26.500 Hopefully, he's accepted me.
00:57:30.060 Hopefully.
00:57:30.380 Interesting.
00:57:31.780 Very interesting.
00:57:32.560 Well, you know, your story is a very, very interesting story.
00:57:37.600 And there's a lot of different lessons in there.
00:57:40.160 You know, I'm always curious, different about the Chicago versus New York and what cultures they have on the leadership style.
00:57:45.780 But here's what I would say if you're watching this.
00:57:48.660 Obviously, you've seen on Valley Timmy, we've done a lot of different mob interviews.
00:57:51.760 Whether it's Michael Francis, Gianni Russo, Oscar Goodman.
00:57:55.460 I mean, I can go on with a lot of different lists that we have.
00:57:57.440 And there's a lot of exposure that we accidentally got into this market.
00:58:00.200 If you'd like to know more about his story, he wrote a book called The Rise and Fall of a Casino Mobster.
00:58:05.620 But if you ever pay a visit to Vegas, you do personal tours, apparently.
00:58:09.780 Maybe tell us a little bit about this personal tour.
00:58:11.180 I do personal tours, yeah.
00:58:12.720 I put people in my personal vehicle or I take them in a rented vehicle and I bring them to all the locations in Las Vegas that we shot the movie Casino.
00:58:23.280 The movie and places where people were murdered, robberies.
00:58:28.200 And it's personal.
00:58:29.700 I'm in the car with my people.
00:58:31.420 You tell the story about what happened here, what happened there.
00:58:34.340 Interesting.
00:58:34.900 And if they ever go to TripAdvisor and stuff like that, they get my phone number, you know.
00:58:39.840 And by the way, even the Mob Museum, do you take them to the Mob Museum?
00:58:42.540 Because I know your picture's on the wall at the Mob Museum as well.
00:58:45.340 Do they go through that tour with you or no?
00:58:47.100 Do you go there?
00:58:47.540 I don't.
00:58:48.540 I do speaking engagements.
00:58:50.080 Yeah.
00:58:50.640 They call me quite often.
00:58:51.740 Okay, got it.
00:58:52.460 And I do speaking engagements there.
00:58:54.160 If you, again, want to find out more, go order his book.
00:58:57.420 Frank, thank you so much for coming.
00:58:58.760 I really enjoyed talking to you.
00:58:59.860 Truly.
00:59:00.620 Thanks, everybody, for listening.
00:59:01.920 And by the way, if you haven't already subscribed to Valuetainment on iTunes, please do so.
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00:59:09.300 And if you have any questions for me that you may have, you can always find me on Snapchat, Instagram, Facebook, or YouTube.
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00:59:22.380 With that being said, have a great day today.
00:59:24.120 Take care, everybody.
00:59:24.840 Bye-bye.
00:59:25.080 Bye.
00:59:25.680 Bye-bye.
00:59:26.020 Bye-bye.
00:59:30.860 Bye-bye.
00:59:30.980 Bye-bye.
00:59:31.420 Bye-bye.
00:59:32.120 Bye-bye.
00:59:33.220 Bye-bye.
00:59:41.080 Bye-bye.
00:59:41.280 Bye-bye.
00:59:42.800 Bye-bye.
00:59:43.120 Bye-bye.
00:59:44.160 Bye-bye.
00:59:49.160 Bye-bye.
00:59:50.300 Bye-bye.
00:59:51.120 Bye-bye.
00:59:52.880 Bye-bye.
00:59:53.060 Bye-bye.
00:59:54.280 Bye-bye.
00:59:54.500 Bye-bye.