Valuetainment - Episode 391： Tupac & Biggie’s Murder Solved By Greg Kading

00:00:00.300 30 seconds. One time for the underdog. Ignition sequence start.

00:00:07.020 Let me see you put them up. Reach the sky, touch the stars up above.

00:00:11.140 Cause it's one time for the underdog. One time for the underdog.

00:00:17.440 I'm Patrick Biddy, your host of Valuetainment.

00:00:19.180 Today I'm sitting down with Greg Kading, who is the detective from LA trying to solve the Biggie homicide,

00:00:25.960 who killed Biggie that led to him finding out who killed Tupac. And all I can tell you is if you

00:00:31.200 remember the nineties, West coast, East coast, hip hop rap, the rivalry that was going on,

00:00:36.680 you're going to be very interested in today's sit down. Greg, thanks for making the time for

00:00:40.160 coming out. My pleasure. Thank you for having me. So, so before getting this, you had already done

00:00:46.700 200 cases, give or take. Yeah. Throughout my career, I was already, you know, a senior detective

00:00:52.680 at the time that I got this case, but I had come through narcotics and homicide and had a really

00:00:58.320 deep background in gang investigation. So it just seemed like a natural fit to, to take on this

00:01:03.500 case. Now, was this something that you went after? Or was it something that was just given to you

00:01:07.460 out of nowhere? It was given to me out of nowhere. Really? I was working major narcotics and I got

00:01:13.020 a phone call one day from a detective at robbery homicide division who was overseeing the new

00:01:20.600 resurrected Christopher Wallace, Biggie Smalls murder, which was being re-examined due to a

00:01:26.980 lawsuit that was being waged against the city of Los Angeles, wherein allegations had been made from

00:01:32.400 the Wallace estate that LAPD officers were complicit in the murder. Complicit in the murder. And is that

00:01:40.020 kind of what attracted you to it? Or you already kind of knew this was taking place? I had some

00:01:46.180 knowledge of the case, but very limited, really just superficial knowledge of the case. I was

00:01:51.980 attracted to it just by the challenge of it all. I enjoyed things that had to do with gangs. I enjoyed

00:01:57.980 things that had to do with narcotics. And of course, this is a high profile murder, wherein both of those

00:02:03.600 worlds were going to be visited. So all of those things kind of attracted me to it. And I knew the

00:02:09.040 department wanted to get to the bottom of it. Now, before even getting into it, what is the itch?

00:02:14.060 Why do you want to be a detective? Like, what is the inspiration behind, you know, I want to go find

00:02:20.540 out more. I want to dig up more. Where does that come from? Have you always been like that?

00:02:24.420 Yeah, I've always enjoyed puzzles. And that's what homicide, any investigation is. It's about,

00:02:30.040 you know, finding pieces of evidence and trying to fit them all together to get a comprehensive

00:02:36.840 picture of something. And so there's a challenge involved. And it's a lot of fun, you know, being a

00:02:42.080 detective. And especially in a city like Los Angeles, it can be a lot of fun. It can be

00:02:45.420 really challenging. But when you have a good partner and you got a team around you, it's

00:02:50.720 all worthwhile. Did you listen to hip-hop back then or no? Were you a hip-hop guy or?

00:02:56.000 No, no. I have to admit I wasn't. I'm kind of a classic rock guy. I came up on, you know,

00:03:01.700 Bob Seger and Aerosmith and that type of stuff. Slightly different music. Slightly different music.

00:03:06.020 And, you know, and again, back in the mid-90s, of course, there was kind of an adversarial

00:03:10.580 relationship between law enforcement and the gangster rap community. You know, songs from MWA

00:03:16.920 like F the Police and that were coming out. And so, you know, there was just these two different

00:03:21.400 worlds that were kind of frowning upon each other. Did you personally see them as the enemy

00:03:27.200 yourself? Was it kind of like, I want to put a stop to this and I'm willing to contribute? Was that

00:03:31.040 kind of your mindset or I'm just going to go do my job? Well, the gangs, you know, we perceived as

00:03:37.040 being, you know, they're a detriment to their community. And so that's what it is. You're

00:03:41.880 trying to protect the people in those communities that are trying to just get through their lives

00:03:45.580 with pursuing, you know, their own agendas. And then these gangs, they wreak all kinds of havoc

00:03:52.000 in the communities. So somebody has to be there to try to curb that. And that's us. That's law

00:03:56.640 enforcement. Did you have a personal incident that happened to you with a gang member

00:04:00.860 or anything that even created more fire in your belly or not really? You've never had

00:04:04.940 an issue yourself. Well, there were certainly gang members who I despised, you know, guys

00:04:09.460 that were out there, you know, committing murders and robbing houses and raping women and that 0.94

00:04:14.200 type of thing. But with that being said, I developed really good relationships with certain gang

00:04:19.280 members and we became friends. And even guys that I'd sent to prison for years, I'd stay

00:04:23.340 in touch with. And once they got out, I formed friendships with them. So everything really

00:04:29.020 is taken on an individual basis. But, you know, you have to judge the behavior at certain

00:04:34.020 times. The only reason I ask is because I can only imagine if you put 97 four inch binders

00:04:40.800 on this table, I mean, there's a high likelihood one of them is going to fall off, right? To

00:04:45.540 want to do that and pursue it, you can obviously say no to it, right? You can say, no, I don't

00:04:50.020 want to do this. I want to pass it to somebody else. Do you have the ability to do that? Or is

00:04:53.320 it, Kading, this is yours, you got to take it, go get the job done? I could have declined 0.90

00:04:57.920 it, you know, because they did. They wanted somebody who would be interested and motivated

00:05:01.520 to do the work. And so they didn't want to have somebody that the work was forced on.

00:05:06.100 It just doesn't, it doesn't amount to a good objective, proactive approach. So I liked it

00:05:12.880 because I have a certain kind of obsessive compulsive personality. And if you put something

00:05:19.460 like that in front of me, you know, the challenge is and I'm going to, you know, I'm going to

00:05:23.620 do my darndest to figure it out. So. And you need the right personality for this

00:05:27.520 because, because this is like I was telling you earlier, you know, so I'm like, okay,

00:05:31.320 I'm going to sit with Greg. Great. We've done a lot of different interviews on the channel.

00:05:35.320 We've never gotten into the hip hop side. And you know, my interest with Tupac. I said,

00:05:39.020 okay, great. Let me, let me want to pursue this. But the more and more you read and the more

00:05:43.580 and more you investigate, it's a never ending story with this, with the, all the conspiracies,

00:05:48.200 17 conspiracies that could be right five over here. Here's a person on this side. It was this

00:05:53.900 guy was that guy. So when it was first given to you, what was your first approach when you got it?

00:05:59.380 Did you say, let me go through all this material first then, or did you say, I don't want to look

00:06:03.780 at any of this stuff. Let me do my own investigation and I'll come to it. No, we had to review all the

00:06:09.280 information that was available at the time. All of those binders, we had to go through with a fine

00:06:13.840 tooth comb and start piecing things together and develop the most viable theories. Because

00:06:19.380 there are, there were some, you know, there was just some ridiculous allegations and theories

00:06:24.340 out there that, you know, we, we had to listen to, but we couldn't really take seriously just

00:06:29.300 based on, on face value. But putting together all the information contained in those binders

00:06:36.060 did lead us to the most viable and practical of the theories and decided that those would be

00:06:42.100 the ones that we'd spend our time and energy trying to prove or disprove.

00:06:46.640 Got it. So, so you're, you're getting it. You're looking at, you're reading all the material

00:06:51.380 yourself. Russell Poole himself had come up to a conclusion, right? And he, he was going

00:06:58.520 in a direction where he felt it was, you know, who he thought had handled the business for

00:07:03.240 Biggie or Tupac. First of all, what was that to the audience, assuming they know nothing

00:07:08.000 and they've not seen the documentary or read your book? And secondly, what direction did

00:07:12.800 you go after you read that?

00:07:15.120 So Russell Poole, he developed a loose theory based on some strong circumstantial evidence

00:07:21.680 that there were some police officers moonlighting for death row records and some LAPD officers

00:07:27.800 that may or may not be associated with Suge Knight. And through kind of a series of random circumstances,

00:07:36.280 put together this theory that these cops were involved. And the cops that he ultimately identified

00:07:42.200 was a notoriously bad cop from the LAPD, a disgraced cop named David Mack, who after the murders

00:07:50.760 of Biggie Smalls had robbed a bank. And you know, there was some indication that who he

00:07:56.200 was associated or with, with gangs down in Compton. So all of these things led Russell Poole down this

00:08:03.960 road where he started to fit information together to serve that theory's purpose. And we took it as a

00:08:11.560 serious theory. There was, as I said, really good circumstantial information to believe that this

00:08:16.680 could be true. And so we pursued that as a viable option while keeping in mind that it may not be

00:08:23.080 true also. And so it was kind of through a process of elimination that we'd take a theory. If we could

00:08:29.560 disprove it, then we knew we could set it aside and move on to the next theory.

00:08:33.880 Got it. Greg, do you mind if we go to the other room on the board? I have pictures of everybody and

00:08:38.440 I kind of want you to walk us through the connection of everybody with each other where, you know, when

00:08:43.560 you're investigating, I would picture like, you know, some of these movies that they're doing

00:08:47.640 investigation. They got all the characters up and you kind of are trying to figure out how you got

00:08:50.760 to the bottom of who killed them. Yeah. You mind if we do that? That'll be fine. Let's go to the other

00:08:53.640 one. Yeah. So Greg, I want to take a different angle with this because I think this gives the

00:08:58.280 audience a better visual to kind of see how everybody's connected to each other. So if you can

00:09:03.160 kind of walk us through what we know here is obviously it started with Biggie, the investigation,

00:09:07.400 Tupac kind of came in. And then I have Eazy-E here. I have P. Diddy and Suge Knight and a lot of

00:09:13.880 different characters, even Johnny Cochran and Russell Poole. If you can kind of walk us through

00:09:18.520 some of the connections here, that'll probably be most helpful. Great. Yeah. And this is very helpful

00:09:23.960 for me also during the investigation. This is exactly what we did, put together a big flow chart so we

00:09:29.400 could put faces to names and start making connections. So this is the way to present the case. So I appreciate that.

00:09:37.560 Of course, you've got Biggie and Tupac. There are victims killed in 1996, killed in 1997. Over here,

00:09:44.360 you have Russell Poole, who was the primary investigation back in 1997 assigned to investigate

00:09:49.640 Biggie's murder. And so, of course, we know that Biggie was with P. Diddy at Bad Boy Records and Tupac at

00:09:57.320 the time in 96 was under the death row with Suge Knight at the helm. So these are all just some of the

00:10:04.600 ancillary characters. These guys aren't really related insofar as the murder investigation is

00:10:10.200 concerned. But of course, we know Eazy-E and Snoop Dogg and Dr. Dre from the founding days of death

00:10:15.560 row. You know, Eazy-E coming out of NWA and Dre. And then, of course, Snoop Dogg joins forces and they

00:10:23.480 all become... How much do you buy into the conspiracy about the AIDS where Suge Knight said what he said on

00:10:28.760 Jimmy Kimmel? Or you've never investigated to find out the validity of it anyways?

00:10:34.360 We didn't take a deep dive into it. I don't believe it. I don't believe that he, you know,

00:10:39.720 injected him with a needle full of... Even though he said it on Kimmel?

00:10:42.760 Right. Well, Suge Knight said a lot of things, most of which are untrue. So it's just his nature

00:10:49.080 to throw out, you know, all kinds of nonsense. You know, he said Tupac's alive. He said that Diddy killed

00:10:55.320 him? He said, you know, he said a million different things. He'd make a good politician today.

00:10:58.760 There you go. Perhaps when he gets out of prison, he'll become one.

00:11:01.880 So walk us through the rest. Okay. So, you know, back in 96,

00:11:08.040 Tupac Shakur, as we know, was in Las Vegas, Nevada, watching a Mike Tyson fight.

00:11:12.520 He's along with Suge Knight and this big entourage of people with death row records. They're at the MGM.

00:11:18.440 After the fight, Tupac gets into a fist fight with a gang member from Compton named Orlando Anderson.

00:11:26.600 His street name was Baby Lane. After this fist fight takes place, security gets there. They break

00:11:33.080 it up. Everybody goes their own way. And Tupac Shakur later on that evening are on the way over to

00:11:39.400 Suge's nightclub. Do you mind highlighting this? And I don't mean to interrupt you. Orlando,

00:11:44.840 they got into a fight because of Trayvon claimed that he took the death row medallion. And at that

00:11:52.600 time he was given $10,000 for every medallion that they took. Apparently it was the case, right? Or

00:11:58.280 all of that's true, except the thing about him offering up any kind of bounty for those medallions

00:12:03.560 has always just been kind of street rumor legend. It's never been validated or verified,

00:12:08.280 but there was a rumor on the street that there was an offer of $10,000

00:12:12.040 to get one of these death row medallions, which Tupac had and many of the other people that death

00:12:18.360 row possessed. So they're heading over to Suge Knight's club. This is after the Tyson fight.

00:12:25.400 Suge Knight has got this club in Las Vegas called the 662. It's a new enterprise for him. He's trying

00:12:31.880 to secure a gambling license and a liquor license. So it's a really big night. It's an important night.

00:12:37.160 He's got Tupac alongside of him in a, in a BMW. Tupac's supposed to perform at the, at the club

00:12:43.320 that night. Mike Tyson's supposed to make an appearance. So it's a big deal. While they're

00:12:48.920 in route there, a white Cadillac pulls up alongside of them. Somebody leans out of the back window and

00:12:54.920 opens fire, hits Tupac multiple times, and he ultimately dies six days later in the hospital.

00:13:02.760 So the murder investigation out in Las Vegas begins immediately and they begin to question people,

00:13:10.280 including Reggie Wright, who was the head of security at death row. They try to question

00:13:15.400 Suge. He's not cooperative. Many other people within that entourage get questioned, but the

00:13:20.600 cops don't really make any real headway because people aren't, aren't cooperating.

00:13:24.680 So as a result of that fight that took place between Tupac and baby Lane,

00:13:31.560 Suge Knight gets himself involved in that melee and gets sent back to prison on a probation violation.

00:13:37.160 So six months later, when Biggie is shot, Suge Knight is in prison arms. He's in, uh,

00:13:42.360 the LA County jail facing these probation violations. Biggie comes back to LA in 1997. He's with

00:13:50.280 Diddy and his cousin, Little Cease and the rest of the bad boy entourage. They attend a party at the

00:13:55.640 Peterson Auto Museum on March 7th of 1997. And as they're leaving, the fire marshal is closed to the

00:14:02.280 party down for overcrowding. As they're leaving, Diddy and his bodyguard, they're in a, uh, suburban

00:14:09.720 leaving the location. Following them is Biggie Smalls, his cousin, and several other members of the

00:14:15.160 entourage in a dark SS Impala pulls up alongside, very similar to what had taken place in Vegas six

00:14:22.360 months earlier. An assailant reaches out the window, shoots Biggie several times, and he dies on the

00:14:27.160 way to the hospital. So now the 1997 Biggie Smalls investigation is unfolding. Um, and it's assigned

00:14:35.560 to this guy, Russell Poole, who is an LAPD robbery homicide detective. Got it. And, and, and a part of this,

00:14:43.000 when the shooting happened here and he went to jail, did, didn't he make, uh, an offer to him

00:14:49.320 for $16,000 to say that he wasn't hitting him. He was trying to help him. Did that actually take place?

00:14:55.080 It did. Uh, there is some question as whether it was $16,000 or $60,000. We've gotten different

00:15:01.480 versions of that story, but we know he did go to testify in his hearing and favorably trying to say,

00:15:08.600 yeah, uh, Suge was not kicking me. He was actually trying to stop the fight and he shouldn't be,

00:15:14.760 you know, violated for his probation. The judge doesn't buy it. He can see that Orlando's lying

00:15:19.800 through his teeth and, uh, Suge ultimately gets sent back to prison for eight years.

00:15:23.720 So it didn't help at all. Didn't help at all. All it did was expose him as a, uh, as a perjurer.

00:15:29.720 Got it. Okay. Let's, so from here at this point, we have both west coast, east coast top rappers 0.90

00:15:37.960 have been shot and killed, have been shot and killed. He died six days later. He died, you know,

00:15:42.200 on the way to the hospital. There's a recording apparently on, you can hear the recording, uh,

00:15:47.960 on the driver. It's like, I'm trying to find the hospital. What do I find the hospital? And then

00:15:51.480 he dies on the way there. Right. So what happens next? So after, uh, he's DOA, uh, the murder

00:15:58.920 investigation begins to unfold. They secure the crime scene back at the Peterson Auto Museum.

00:16:05.000 And as I said, um, shortly thereafter, Russell Poole becomes one of the primary

00:16:09.800 investigators, uh, to, to, to look into the matter. And he begins to figure out that there has been this

00:16:18.120 ongoing rivalry between these two camps. It's been going on for years. There's already been

00:16:23.160 violence between the two camps and we're seeing that there's this hostile animosity going on,

00:16:28.520 not only between Biggie and Tupac, but between Diddy and Suge Knight and then their respective crews.

00:16:34.920 So there's like these different levels of the conflict that are going on. So he begins to develop,

00:16:39.720 uh, you know, a theory that, uh, all of this is probably due to some type of interaction among all of

00:16:45.880 these, these people. And then an unexpected thing takes place while he's investigating that he hears

00:16:52.920 and responds to a shooting that takes place between two LAPD officers. This guy, Frank Liga,

00:16:58.760 who was working undercover narcotics at the time and an off duty officer named Kevin Gaines. These two

00:17:04.600 guys get into a road rage incident. They both pull guns on each other. Frank Liga shoots and kills Kevin

00:17:11.240 Gaines. And during the investigation of that shooting, he finds out that Kevin Gaines is driving

00:17:17.480 a vehicle that's registered to Suge Knight's wife. And during the, um, follow-up of that investigation

00:17:23.960 finds out that Sharitha Knight, his wife was actually dating this guy and had been for some time,

00:17:30.360 an LAPD officer. So for him, it raises the question, why is an LAPD officer dating the wife of a known

00:17:37.560 criminal and a guy who's got a reputation in Los Angeles that precedes him for violence and that

00:17:42.840 type of thing? Now at this time, does he know that that's taking place or no, it's not public info?

00:17:48.120 Uh, Suge is aware of the fact that this incident takes place. He's aware of the fact that they've

00:17:53.320 determined that, uh, his wife has loaned her vehicle to this police officer. Did he know it pre the

00:17:59.160 event or he learned afterwards? He knew it before. He was aware that his wife, yeah. So they were kind of

00:18:05.560 separated on the outs, yeah. So, uh, Johnny Cochran ultimately defends the lawsuit that's, uh, lodged

00:18:14.120 against the police department representing Kevin Gaines. It doesn't really go anywhere. Um, but,

00:18:20.440 you know, Johnny Cochran is of course a infamous LA lawyer. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So during, during,

00:18:29.320 by the way, his credibility, does he have a strong credibility of who he was with his past?

00:18:32.920 At the time, you know, Russell Poole was known as a really diligent, um, hardworking, uh, respected

00:18:40.760 detective. Had he worked on something this big before a case this level? Just some ancillary

00:18:45.720 involvement. You know, when, uh, Cosby's kid was killed in Los Angeles, he'd worked hundreds of

00:18:50.360 gang homicides and gang investigations. So he's got experience. This doesn't sound like that he knows

00:18:54.120 what he's doing. He knew what he's doing. Okay. And I remember when this, when this took place,

00:18:59.160 both of these events took place, P Diddy, Puffy and Snoop got on and they interviewed and they said,

00:19:04.440 we got to bring it together. And it was a way of them trying to bring peace. Let's bring West Coast,

00:19:08.920 East Coast together. You could tell there was fear in both of them, because if this continues,

00:19:13.800 he's probably next. There's a lot of other people that are going to be next. So they're trying to bring

00:19:17.480 peace. Yeah. Well, particularly Snoop Dogg, you know, I think he was in the middle of it. Dre didn't

00:19:23.000 really want anything to do with all the violence and nonsense going on around death row, which is why he

00:19:27.160 wasn't like that since they won with Dre. He just wanted to produce and do his thing and make,

00:19:31.240 make great music. So he wasn't about all this drama that was going on. Snoop also, he just wanted to,

00:19:37.560 you know, he wanted to do the same thing for all intent and purposes, make music. He wanted to be

00:19:41.240 able to go to New York and, you know, do things out in New York and promote his music out there.

00:19:46.520 But this conflict going on between them was making all of that very difficult.

00:19:50.280 Did you watch that when that interview took place, when they're trying to bring peace?

00:19:53.880 Like, do you, do you, when you're investigating, do you look at those types of things or not at all?

00:19:58.280 Oh, of course we do. Like, you know, hey, we're really not trying to hurt anybody. Nothing really

00:20:02.440 happened. Or does that actually bring more attention to say, why is he getting on there saying something

00:20:06.840 like this now? Does it put more of a target on him for saying that or no? Personally, I think he

00:20:13.400 would have preferred there be a truce, a piece. Pre, pre both of these events or post?

00:20:18.840 Uh, prior. Okay. And after both, because I think he wasn't, he knew how dangerous this

00:20:26.040 was over here. You know, he's a New Yorker. He's not a gangster by nature. He's just a guy who

00:20:31.640 wants to make music and, and be an entrepreneur and, and, you know, not have to deal with all of the 0.76

00:20:38.120 crap that was going on around Suge Knight. When it got really bad was when they were in Atlanta,

00:20:43.720 and then both of these guys and their entourages were at a nightclub. And they got into a little

00:20:48.120 squabble over some girls on the dance floor. And, you know, one thing led to a pushing match. And 0.88

00:20:52.520 then of course security tells them to all go outside. And then his bodyguard pulls a gun and

00:20:58.040 shoots and kills his bodyguard. So now there's blood on the ground. He holds him responsible for

00:21:04.200 the death of his friend. And the conflict is really bad. This all takes place long before these

00:21:10.200 guys get killed. How much long, how much before? So that shooting in, uh, 90, that was in 95.

00:21:15.720 So two weeks. In Atlanta. Okay. So a year before. So a year before this. And of course, even before

00:21:20.920 that, 94, he gets assaulted at the Quad Studios in New York and believes that both Puffy and Diddy,

00:21:27.960 at least for a little while initially, he thought that Puffy and Diddy had set him up and they were

00:21:32.680 responsible for that. What do you think? For that robbery. I don't think so whatsoever. And I think he

00:21:37.160 came to learn that it wasn't these guys in here amongst these guys. Is it fair to say that these

00:21:43.000 three were not gangsters? He was the only one. Correct. Definitely not these guys. You know,

00:21:48.760 he was a drug dealer, just a street corner guy. Um, you know, of course Diddy was coming up in the

00:21:54.040 music business and kept his nose clean for all intent and purposes. Uh, Shug was definitely from 1.00

00:21:59.640 the neighborhood. He wanted that whole gang atmosphere and reputation to be what death row was.

00:22:06.840 And Tupac ended up kind of becoming an affiliate of, of the gang that Suge Knight represented,

00:22:15.320 which was the Mob Pirus. He was not a gang member in any way, shape or form, but he certainly was 0.72

00:22:20.040 associating with them and claiming them, um, because he was looking for protection, not only protection,

00:22:26.760 but a sense of, you know, for lack of brotherhood and belonging. Which is most of them though,

00:22:32.280 right? Most of us, if you get into a gang, you're missing something. There's not a father figure.

00:22:36.520 There's not a French brother you have. So you kind of want to get into something. But, but based on

00:22:41.000 what I read is Tupac had a lot of different personalities. One day he's the entertainer,

00:22:45.560 one day we're taking over the world. One day it's a philosopher, one day it's the gangster. So you

00:22:49.080 didn't know who really showed up. So, you know, even him not necessarily taking claims of one certain

00:22:53.720 city, whether it's Baltimore, New York, LA, what are you really representing? Right? Yeah. But he was

00:22:58.920 man of the people, yet not really affiliated to any gang. So background wise, would you say he

00:23:05.320 wasn't like an OG, OG gangster compared to him? Oh, no, no, no, none, none whatsoever. You know,

00:23:10.680 he, he was a complicated guy, but, uh, you know, he, he certainly wasn't, you know, a gang member. Okay.

00:23:16.760 We call him an affiliate just by this, you know, just by nature of the fact that he's affiliating or

00:23:22.120 you don't call him a gangster or gang members. Not at all. Got it. Not at all. But we do have to

00:23:27.000 remember that he was at odds with these guys. When he was in jail, Suge was the one that came

00:23:32.200 out there and rescued him, got the bail money up, brought him to Los Angeles, allowed him to make

00:23:37.960 some, you know, phenomenal music. And so he saw in Suge a big brother or possibly father figure or mentor.

00:23:46.520 And then of course, Suge Knight's entourage embraced Tupac and he saw with them a sense of belonging.

00:23:53.400 Got it. Okay. So what happens next? So what happens next after this happens, uh, Russell Poole,

00:24:01.400 then becomes after the shooting in this whole, the aftermath of this cop on cop shooting, another

00:24:07.400 incident takes place in Los Angeles where a corrupt cop, a rogue cop named David Mack, robs a bank in

00:24:15.480 Los Angeles, a bank of America and, uh, runs away, runs out of there with like $722,000.

00:24:23.320 Investigators quickly figure out who he, what his involvement was and they arrest him. And when

00:24:28.760 they arrest him, they find out that he drives a black 1996 Chevy Impala, which is the exact same

00:24:35.640 vehicle as the suspects used in the murder of Biggie. They also find that there's photographs of him

00:24:41.080 wearing all of the, a red suit and a red brim hat, what was very indicative of how Suge Knight dressed.

00:24:47.400 And he's from Compton and he's got a loose affiliation with some bloods according to some

00:24:52.760 of the letters he's written while he's in jail. He's claiming these West Side Riders, I believe it 1.00

00:24:57.240 was, um, a Compton street gang. So Russ Poole knows that he has at least one cop who's loosely affiliated

00:25:04.120 with Suge Knight through his wife. And now he's got another cop who is claiming to be a gang,

00:25:09.480 dressing in red clothes, indicative of the bloods and drives a black Impala, which is,

00:25:14.840 matches the suspect vehicle in Biggie's shooting. So he begins to form a theory that, uh, potentially

00:25:21.240 this guy was involved in the murder of Biggie Smalls. Adding to that, we discover that while he

00:25:28.280 was in jail for the bank robbery, he's visited by this guy named Amir Mohamed and he goes into the

00:25:34.920 jail and visits David Mack. He becomes aware of this visit and he finds out that during the investigation

00:25:44.520 into Biggie's murder, an informant had mentioned the name Amir as being the shooter of Biggie Smalls.

00:25:51.400 And so he finds out there's an Amir that visits David Mack and that kind of adds fuel to the fire 0.98

00:25:57.640 of the theory that he's trying to develop. It's purely a theory. It's purely a theory.

00:26:01.720 Good circumstantial support for the theory. Sure. Uh, but it's, it's far from conclusive.

00:26:06.360 It, where, where, where does the story come with, uh, Louis Farrakhan where it's,

00:26:11.000 hey, are we good? I want to make sure I'm good with the brother or Muslim, you know, the Muslim,

00:26:14.680 you know, that, that conversation was that Puffy and them or what, where does that take place?

00:26:18.600 Yeah. So that takes place the night prior to Biggie's murder at the Peterson. They're at the

00:26:24.440 Soul Train Awards. Uh, their Puffy's entourage is bad boy entourage gets into a little bit of a,

00:26:30.760 a confrontation with members of the nation of Islam. And that's when, um, Diddy supposedly says

00:26:37.800 over to Farrakhan, Hey, we're cool, right? I mean, do we need, do we need this? And they call the incident.

00:26:43.880 Got it. But is there anything connected with that here or not at all?

00:26:47.640 There's nothing connected other than he's Muslim, not fruit of Islam, but Muslim, 1.00

00:26:55.480 and there's a conflict the night before. Got it. So it's completely, uh, separate.

00:26:59.160 Completely separate. Got it. Completely separate. But for him,

00:27:03.160 it's a loose connection. Sure. Yes. Sure. So now what, what role does Rafael Ray Perez play?

00:27:09.240 So Perez is most notable. He's kind of the face of what became known as the rampart scandal

00:27:14.840 in Los Angeles. He was another dirty cop who was going to our evidence, checking out cocaine under

00:27:21.000 an alias name, and then going out and selling and using the cocaine for his own profit. 0.75

00:27:25.800 He becomes discovered during that internal investigation. And then he ultimately makes

00:27:31.320 a deal with the district attorney's office in Los Angeles and starts to name all these other people

00:27:36.040 that he claims were dirty cops. Um, these two,

00:27:40.280 Was there a lot of dirty cops at that time? Is it a list as a long list or not really?

00:27:44.200 The whole rampart scandal ultimately turned out to be like three guys. Okay.

00:27:48.760 Including, you know, including him. He's the main one. So he was just throwing all kinds of dirt in

00:27:53.880 every direction, trying to get himself out of trouble. He was making a lot of false allegations

00:27:57.960 against a lot of innocent cops. Got it. Um, but the rampart scandal

00:28:04.120 legend kind of just took on a life of its own and is perceived as something much bigger than it actually was.

00:28:09.320 These guys used to work together. And so there was some, there was some

00:28:15.720 suspicion that he was also involved in the bank robbery, but that had, that had been ultimately

00:28:21.000 refuted. So now you have this, you read this, you do the investigation, 97 binders, you're going

00:28:26.520 through. This is what Russell Poole's theory is next. Where do you go next? So he's developed his theory.

00:28:32.840 He's presenting it to the department. They're like, okay, this is circumstantially interesting,

00:28:39.080 but it's far from being conclusive. Uh, let's not start making allegations. Let's not start making,

00:28:44.600 uh, you know, adding to a newspaper fodder with this theory. He gets frustrated and walks away from the job,

00:28:53.240 basically just quits the job a year prior to qualifying for his retirement.

00:28:57.560 And he goes out and writes a book. And so you've got, you know, a year and a half worth of

00:29:05.560 investigative material in these books. The case of Biggie Smalls is assigned to another

00:29:10.520 investigator. Tupac's case is still being worked out in Las Vegas, but he goes and writes a book

00:29:15.960 called Labyrinth. And that leads to, based on the book, a lawsuit is waged against the LAPD.

00:29:24.120 This is the $400 million lawsuit. This is the $400 million lawsuit that's waged against the LAPD.

00:29:29.560 Based on the allegations in the book that he, that he helps to write, an attorney gets a hold of Biggie's

00:29:35.560 mom and says, listen, I've read this book by this ex detective in Los Angeles. He's got all this

00:29:40.600 incredible information about how cops were involved and they're covering it up. Let's sue the department

00:29:45.480 and get to the bottom of this. So that's what takes place. The civil lawsuit goes in and out of court,

00:29:53.400 federal court, state court dismissed, refiled. And ultimately in 2006, the LAPD says, listen,

00:30:02.200 let's put a full court press on this, get a bunch of people involved. And that's how I get involved.

00:30:07.560 And we start to take our, take a fresh look at everything involving the case. But of course,

00:30:13.560 now it's nine years later, nine years later. So now you're on the $400 million lawsuit. Just a

00:30:20.280 question for you. When, when the, when the city of LA gets a lawsuit that big, are they worried

00:30:25.960 because they don't have the funds to go lawyer up and protect themselves? Is that where their first

00:30:30.120 brain goes? It was like, man, we cannot afford that kind of a lawsuit. It's a, it's a combination.

00:30:35.000 Yes. Of course it's that, you know, nobody wants to, you know, you never know what is going to

00:30:39.160 happen in a civil case. You know, you just, uh, juries are very fickle and you can't afford to

00:30:45.720 lose that kind of money. $400 million is no small change. So they say, listen, we're confident based

00:30:52.840 on all the investigative effort that has taken place in that nine year period, because it wasn't just him,

00:30:59.320 other investigators, teams of investigators had looked into all of his claims. And the LAPD was

00:31:04.760 very confident that should this go to court, they can successfully defend it and get out from under

00:31:11.720 that lawsuit. But in order to do that, they had to resurrect the case and have us take a new look at

00:31:17.720 it and see if we've missed anything. So, so why did they go from him to you? Is that because he had

00:31:23.000 the heart attack and he died? No, he died years later after I'd already, after we'd already been

00:31:28.520 involved. He died long after the fact. Long after that. He just died a few years ago. Who was he

00:31:33.400 about to have a meeting with that he was and then something happened where he'd had a heart attack

00:31:38.040 right before that? He was over at the homicide unit of the LA County Sheriff's and the LA County Sheriff's

00:31:44.520 was at that time, um, in charge of the investigation of Suge Knight when he ran over and killed this guy,

00:31:51.720 Terry Carter. It's a completely unrelated event, but the LA County Sheriff's Department is pursuing him

00:31:59.240 as a, as a murder suspect for running this guy over. And Russell Poole says, hey, I've got this idea.

00:32:05.800 Let's make sure, let's cut Suge Knight a deal on this murder in order to get him to cooperate

00:32:11.240 about the things he knows regarding these two murders. During that meeting, the investigators were

00:32:16.440 kind of looking at him cross-eyed. All these years had gone by. He comes out of the wood

00:32:21.640 work. He's been suffering from a whole bunch of, you know, personal problems and he basically just

00:32:28.120 collapsed and dies right there at the table. It's purely a conspiracy when people try to connect it

00:32:32.760 with any other events. Oh yeah. No, it's just a conspiracy. Nothing happened. He died from a heart

00:32:37.160 attack. Died from a heart attack. Tons of stress for years. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. This, this,

00:32:41.160 it's the world filled with stress. So, so you, you explained this situation perfectly well. Now,

00:32:46.120 what do you do next? So as we get involved, you know, we're going to treat all these theories as

00:32:50.520 if they're true. And then through a process of elimination, come up to the one that we can't

00:32:54.200 disprove. And that's the most viable theory. And then we're going to try to corroborate that.

00:32:58.520 So as we're looking into this, we know about all the conflict that's taken place between these crews,

00:33:03.800 between bad boy and death row and puck and big, and of course the gangs. And so we ultimately

00:33:10.760 want to corner this guy because we knew that he was a, he's a known gang member from Compton.

00:33:17.960 We know he was in Las Vegas at the time of Tupac shooting. And we know that he was at the

00:33:23.000 Peterson Auto Museum the night that Biggie was killed. So he's a person of extreme interest.

00:33:28.520 Up to this point in time, he'd been interviewed and says he doesn't really know anything and,

00:33:33.560 you know, kind of gives a, you know, throws a bunch of curve balls at us.

00:33:37.080 So we know that he's not going to sit down and just be transparent and open with us

00:33:41.400 after all these years. We develop an airtight drug case against him because we're aware of the fact

00:33:48.840 he's got a known history of dealing drugs and particularly to this guy in New York.

00:33:54.920 And we put an ironclad case against him, approach him and say, here's the deal, KPD. We have questions

00:34:00.680 about these murders. If you don't cooperate, you're going to prison for the rest of your life. And so are

00:34:05.560 several members of your family who are caught up in your drug organization.

00:34:09.560 He confesses to his involvement in the murder of Tupac Shakur in Las Vegas in 1996.

00:34:15.000 He tells us that his nephew, Orlando Anderson, was in the same car with him, which was the white

00:34:20.840 Cadillac. And they had gotten into the fight, obviously, between Tupac and Orlando. And now they're

00:34:27.000 going to go and retaliate at the club where they know that Tupac and Sugar are going to be. And they

00:34:32.920 go over to the club and hunt to hunt down Tupac. And prior to that, they meet with this guy in Las

00:34:41.480 Vegas, who happens to be Biggie Small's godfather. He's a close friend of Puffy. He's out in Las Vegas.

00:34:47.080 He's aware of all this conflict going on. He's aware of the shooting of Tupac. And so he gives him a

00:34:52.360 gun in Las Vegas. And then they set out, along with another guy named Corey Edwards and five or six

00:34:58.680 other members of the Southside Crips. And they go on the hunt for Tupac and Suge Knight. Ultimately,

00:35:04.760 they run into him on the strip, just off the strip, actually. And at the intersection of Flamingo and

00:35:10.280 Koval, the Cadillac pulls up. He gives him the gun. He leans out and shoots and ultimately kills Tupac 0.89

00:35:17.240 Shakur.

00:35:17.800 And in the car, he is sitting in the front passenger. Terrence Brown, T. Brown is the

00:35:25.400 driver. He had, I think, his mother-in-law rented the car, the Cadillac. And apparently,

00:35:29.160 Kifidi, every time he would go out, he would always rent a car.

00:35:32.200 And then in the back is Orlando right behind Kifidi. And then DeAndre sitting on this side,

00:35:37.880 he first gives the gun to DeAndre because the car is on this side. DeAndre says no.

00:35:41.960 Then Orlando says, give it to me. He turns around and he shoots, gets him. So that's pretty much the

00:35:46.600 event that takes place. And a lot of it was the attention because the girls were hollering, 1.00

00:35:49.880 hey, Tupac, hey, Suge. And they figured out they're them. They made a U-turn to go get him.

00:35:54.360 Right?

00:35:54.680 That's right. Yep.

00:35:55.640 So where do we go from here? By the way, he looks like Cuba Gunnar Jr. from American Gangster,

00:36:03.160 not Frank Lucas, but the guy that Frank Lucas was going up against, who was making Blue Magic

00:36:08.840 and spicing it up and selling it for a cheaper price. Anyway, just an interesting guy.

00:36:13.400 It's not too far off. He's a known, well, it was a well-known established drug dealer in Harlem for

00:36:19.240 years. He was getting a grip of dope from Kifidi out here on the west coast. Anyways, 1.00

00:36:25.720 he died a few years ago of cancer, natural causes. But he was a co-conspirator in this murder,

00:36:31.320 associated with these guys. And then, of course, these are your two primary suspects.

00:36:36.200 He provides the gun and the direction, and he follows it and does the shooting. So now we have

00:36:43.000 a confessing co-conspirator in the murder, which is huge for us investigatively. You know,

00:36:49.480 now we've got testimonial evidence to support this theory. And he tells us things that he could not

00:36:58.440 have known had he not been actually at the scene at the time of the murder. So we corroborate what he

00:37:05.560 says, and you validate it. So now we have, for all intent and purposes, solved this murder.

00:37:13.960 So now we've still got our other objective, which is to figure out what happened to Biggie.

00:37:20.200 So we take the same investigative approach, and we know that Suge has got a girlfriend. We've given

00:37:26.600 her an alias of Teresa Swan, and that she's complicit in a whole bunch of kind of white-collar 1.00

00:37:32.840 crimes, fraud, forgery, and that type of thing. Has she ever done time or gone caught or no?

00:37:37.000 She's been to jail. Okay. So she had a- She has a record. She has a record. Okay.

00:37:42.360 And a lot, she's got a history. She was his bad girl. You know,

00:37:46.280 she had a lot of women in his life. This happened to be the one that he could count on 0.95

00:37:51.720 to do something that the other girls may not be willing to do. So we basically find out that she's 0.93

00:37:57.240 involved in a bunch of fraud related to automobile purchases. We do the same thing with her that we

00:38:05.160 did to him. We approach her and tell her, listen, we've got a case against you. We're not only going

00:38:10.120 to send you to jail, but we're going to have your young children put into, you know, 0.79

00:38:14.680 put into foster care and, you know, your world's going to take a big 180 if you don't tell us what you know.

00:38:21.720 She ultimately breaks down, confesses that after the murder of Tupac Shakur,

00:38:27.640 Suge's at the county jail. She goes and meets with him. Suge says, listen, I want Biggie killed.

00:38:33.400 I want you to go ahead and get a hold of my boy Poochie from the neighborhood. He knows Poochie's a known 0.94

00:38:37.960 shooter. And he agrees to pay her $25,000, half of what she gives to Poochie. And they conspire to do

00:38:48.120 the murder. So on the night of Biggie Smalls' murder at the Peterson Auto Museum, she goes to the

00:38:54.600 to the party. He lies in wait outside in a dark colored Impala that Suge Knight had purchased for him.

00:39:01.080 And as Biggie Smalls and the entourage are leaving, he just simply pulls up alongside,

00:39:08.280 starts to shoot, hits, hits the big man who dies on the way to the hospital.

00:39:13.560 So this was validated by Teresa Swan, you know, whatever name you gave her was validated by her.

00:39:20.520 Correct.

00:39:21.000 Okay. And, and based on another interview with Reggie Wright, he always saw them,

00:39:27.720 but away from everybody talking. It was almost like a, it wasn't a public relationship. It was

00:39:32.680 more like a private relationship they had. Right, right. When you look back at the activities around

00:39:37.480 Death Row and specifically Suge Knight and his entourage of gang members, they were always out

00:39:42.440 front and center. You know, they, that, that was the image that Suge Knight wanted for his record company.

00:39:48.280 Reggie Wright explained to us that the relationship with Poochie was something completely different.

00:39:52.920 Poochie would stay in the cut. Poochie and Suge would always go off on their own to have private

00:39:57.560 conversations. We knew he was already wanted for at least one murder. And so he was the kind of guy

00:40:03.240 that you would go to if you needed something like that done. Is it fair to say that on this list of

00:40:07.480 all these faces, the toughest guys on this list, he would be one of them? These are your killers.

00:40:13.080 Okay. Right here. Got it. 0.97

00:40:14.680 Right. These are your CEOs, um, and you know, in a shock collar. Got it.

00:40:20.440 But these guys, you know, at the, at the top of the food chain and, uh, because this whole thing never

00:40:26.600 got dealt with responsibly, these two guys suffer the consequences. Got it. So what, what happens

00:40:32.440 next? So now, you know, Poochie's it, you guys make a letter that, hey, he testified and he's already

00:40:38.600 told us right before he died. And even on the letter, you put the date of the letter was April 1st,

00:40:44.200 1998, meaning April fools. Yeah. I think we were just trying to be a little bit too clever, but 0.95

00:40:49.000 ultimately it worked. Uh, she reads the letter. That's a ruse. It's a fictitious confession letter

00:40:55.880 that was signed by him and given to an attorney before he was, he was shot and killed in 2002.

00:41:00.920 Um, on a motorcycle, on a motorcycle, driving up the street. Most of these guys have all, you know,

00:41:06.760 expired. Um, so we show her the letter. She says, wow, that's exactly what happened. We tell her,

00:41:13.960 well, why don't you tell us what happened in your words? She explains her solicitation with

00:41:18.920 Suge Knight and how he had paid her and how he had told her to get ahold of him and commit the murder.

00:41:23.800 So we corroborated her statements and now for all intent purposes, effectively have solved both

00:41:29.800 these murders because we have corroborated co-confessing, uh, co-conspirators that are confessing.

00:41:37.720 So that's where we go to the department and we say, listen, we've got all the goods,

00:41:44.680 the department then has their attorneys reach out to Valetta Wallace in the estate and say, listen,

00:41:51.560 we've got, uh, new information in the case. It undermines and refutes your civil case.

00:41:56.840 You can continue to pursue that and spend money, but this is where we're going with it.

00:42:01.640 Valetta Wallace, an attorney at the hearing that they decide that they're going to retract their

00:42:05.880 lawsuit. It's dismissed in the whole case.

00:42:08.280 The whole case goes away.

00:42:11.000 The whole case goes away.

00:42:11.720 You've said that you believe behind all of this is Puffy. You've said this yourself with a million

00:42:18.440 dollars, whether it was a million dollars, whether it was a half a million dollars. Tell us a little

00:42:22.600 bit about that.

00:42:24.200 What I believe happened with, with Puffy was that, again, I don't think he wanted this conflict to

00:42:30.360 get worse than it already was. And if he could figure out a way to quell that, he would. In fact,

00:42:36.440 we have a statement saying that Puffy had reached out to the members of the Nation of Islam to

00:42:41.880 approach Suge Knight and say, hey, let's have a peace treaty. Let's squash this thing. But Suge wanted

00:42:46.120 nothing to do with it. So he was trying to get out from under this imposing threat, knowing that

00:42:51.480 Suge held him responsible for the murder of his friend. And whenever he would come to LA, he knew that

00:42:57.320 Suge Knight was trying to hunt him down. We have a reported incident, an investigation where Suge Knight

00:43:04.520 had accosted one of his associates at a Christmas party in Los Angeles, and they beat the living 0.98

00:43:09.800 shit out of this guy. He almost lost his eye in an attempt for these guys to gain knowledge about

00:43:17.000 where he lived in Los Angeles. So he undoubtedly becomes aware of the fact that these guys are

00:43:22.840 actively hunting me down. They're kidnapping, assaulting people. My life's definitely in harm's

00:43:28.920 way. And so I think that out of that desperation and fear, he turned to the streets and said,

00:43:36.040 can you guys kind of handle this for me? Because he knew that if you're going to deal with these gang

00:43:43.560 members, then the best thing to do is get their natural enemies to do the work for you.

00:43:51.080 And is that the million dollars? The million dollars was on the...

00:43:54.040 According to Keefy Dee, he says there was a kind of a loose conversation at Greenblatt's at Bunsen set,

00:44:00.600 in which Puffy allegedly tells Keefy Dee, listen, whatever it takes to get these guys off my back,

00:44:08.680 I need you to take care of them. He says we wanted a million dollars. Diddy's like whatever. But again,

00:44:14.840 I have to couch that with the understanding that he was in fear for his life.

00:44:21.400 I fully get that. Yeah, I fully get that. So, but the million dollars is from him,

00:44:25.720 but you don't know really if it's a million dollars or it's a half a million dollars.

00:44:28.520 I think it's just boastful talking. Okay, got it.

00:44:31.160 You know, it's like I saw if I see a really nice car that I'd like to purchase from you,

00:44:35.560 and I just, man, I'll give you a million dollars for that. Yeah.

00:44:37.720 It's just that kind of like loose... So how about the part where Zip gives him the gun,

00:44:42.360 he says, listen, right now is the time to do it. Everyone's in town. Go to 662.

00:44:46.360 Here's a gun that I have. He leaves it to him with the car. Right.

00:44:50.040 He gives him the gun. And then afterwards, when they talk on a call, he says, was that us?

00:44:56.840 And they're on the call together listening. And Zip says, yes, that was us.

00:45:01.240 Keefy says, yes, that was us. Yes, that was us. Keefy says, that was us.

00:45:05.000 And then he says, we'll take care. Zip says, we'll take care of the money. Six weeks later,

00:45:09.080 he's not getting the money. And, you know, he's finding out maybe he didn't get paid.

00:45:14.280 And then afterwards, he meets with an associate of P. Diddy, Puffy, saying, yeah, we did pay,

00:45:19.880 but Zip kept it. And then when they met, is that all been verified that maybe he did keep the money

00:45:26.840 or they did not pay? We don't have anything to validate other than his claim. Got it.

00:45:32.840 He's claiming that he had people that were closely associated with Eric that with Zip that told him,

00:45:39.000 hey, Puffy paid a half a million dollars and Zip kept the money. So that's his claim. We do know that

00:45:46.840 these two people do exist and that they were associated with him. But those people have never

00:45:50.600 verified that. So that that unpaid debt is it was definitely never collected.

00:45:58.040 So why why were you removed from the case in 2009 or, you know, a year before your retirement?

00:46:05.320 Why did they I mean, obviously, the show is called Unsolved, right on Netflix. Why was it like,

00:46:10.840 listen, you're going a little too deep with this. Stop what you're doing. We're going to we're going

00:46:14.840 to remove you and go a different direction. For the LAPD, once we bring them the confession of

00:46:21.000 Kifidi, their attitude is like, OK, well, that's Las Vegas's case. Pass all the information you have 0.88

00:46:29.000 on Tupac's murder to Las Vegas. Let them deal with Kifidi. Let them follow up and handle their own 1.00

00:46:37.480 murder case. With Biggie's case, now the LAPD is out from under this massive lawsuit. They're

00:46:42.920 breathing a sigh of relief. They've just spent millions of dollars conducting this investigation

00:46:49.400 with wiretaps and narcotics buys and all of this, you know, is a large operation. And at that point

00:46:55.320 in time, they realize prosecute prosecution wise, it's going to be very, very difficult to take the

00:47:02.520 remaining co-conspirators, which at that time really consisted of Kifidi, Eric Martin and Diddy,

00:47:10.120 and prosecute these guys based on the sole testimony of a convicted drug dealing gang member.

00:47:18.920 So they realize that it's going to be very, very tough to prosecute these people. We spent enough

00:47:24.840 time and energy on this. Greg, you're going to get reassigned back to cold case homicides. Everybody

00:47:29.800 else go back to your respective agencies. And they just... That's it. Yeah. But it's nothing bigger than

00:47:35.640 that. It wasn't like, hey, let's try to find out more. This is going to get us in trouble. We don't

00:47:41.240 want to get more negativity behind it. Or maybe even some cops internally are trying to protect some

00:47:46.520 people that are living. Any of those things could be possibilities or no?

00:47:50.520 Not for me. Not at all. I think it's just simply they were kind of indifferent about it. Like,

00:47:55.720 hey, Valletta Wallace sued us. We spent a lot of money trying to defend this lawsuit. We've spent a

00:47:59.720 whole lot of money trying to pursue the truth. We found that. And now we're just going to let

00:48:03.800 sleeping dogs lie because we can't prosecute the case, you know, for all intent and purposes.

00:48:08.520 It's not practical with Biggie's murder. And so, you know, you've got an ex-girlfriend who's

00:48:18.360 known to commit perjury. And she's going to take the stand and be the sole witness against Suge Knight

00:48:24.200 saying that he... Because this guy's dead, remember? And so now you've got this, you know,

00:48:30.040 relationship between the two. And she's the only person you can put on the stand to,

00:48:33.880 you know, point the finger at him. It's just not going to work out in court. And same thing with

00:48:37.720 Tupac's murder. You know, these guys just don't have any credibility in so far as getting on the

00:48:42.120 stand and testifying because of their backgrounds and their previous, you know, convictions and status

00:48:48.600 as gang members and established perjurers. It's just complicated. And so...

00:48:55.480 Even though you have this much evidence, it's still complicated? I mean, what that then tells

00:49:03.000 a person watching, how are they protected at this point that you know this happened?

00:49:09.400 You're not talking about a small brand. This guy was growing at a level that was pretty wild. And

00:49:14.680 you're not talking about... I'm not even talking here. I'm specifically staying here with the talent.

00:49:19.000 They're the ones that's making the money. They're the ones creating the opportunity,

00:49:23.400 but they're the ones that are doing the talent. Don't... Isn't there a reason to want to go

00:49:27.880 really find out the truth for not only fans, families, people involved, businesses involved

00:49:32.520 with them? Isn't there a reason to even go deeper with that? Well, there, you know, for us,

00:49:36.200 there's a saying in investigative circles, it's not what you know, it's what you can prove.

00:49:41.480 And knowing what happened is one thing, but then going to court and successfully prosecuting people

00:49:47.320 to bring them justice, that's a different thing. It's a different, it's a different,

00:49:53.960 it's just a different, you know, ball to juggle. And so we know what happened conclusively with all

00:50:00.280 confidence. And so that is the reason why I speak about the case and why I wrote the book about the

00:50:05.080 case is because I believe the public should at least be informed as to what took place in the

00:50:10.200 investigation, what evidence we developed, and how this all fits together. But as far as prosecuting

00:50:17.240 people and getting judicial justice in these cases, it's never going to happen. That's done.

00:50:22.040 Yep. The best thing we could have done, you know, rest in peace, Afeni Shakur,

00:50:26.200 the best thing we could have done was at least let the family and their friends know what happened.

00:50:30.600 And many of those people have given us their feedback saying, we've always known that was the truth.

00:50:35.160 They, who, the family and friends have told you. Oh, absolutely.

00:50:37.640 We've always known that to be the truth. Yeah. Many of them. When I spoke with,

00:50:41.480 with his aunt, Gloria, and I told her about the book and explained what was in it. She said,

00:50:46.840 that's very interesting. Thank you for all your time and effort. But we always knew that. So,

00:50:52.040 and of course we know that Afeni Shakur had sued Orlando Anderson after the shooting,

00:50:57.640 claiming that he was the shooter. How much after? Almost, you know, within a year.

00:51:02.440 Because he was going around at parties talking about, I'm the one that killed Tupac. Yeah.

00:51:05.640 Keefe said, why don't you stop talking? Exactly. You're being too loud.

00:51:07.960 Yeah. He was, he was boasting about it in the neighborhood. So it was not a well-kept secret.

00:51:12.440 The people in the neighborhood, in their inner circle, they all knew that he was responsible for

00:51:16.600 it. But again, it's very difficult to then get those people with any credibility up on the witness

00:51:22.200 stand and prosecute successfully. What are the chances of another thing? Like, do you think we're at a

00:51:28.360 point right now due to, again, social media where to start another East Coast, West Coast type of stuff

00:51:35.320 is pretty much mathematically impossible to do it today? I do believe it is just because of technology.

00:51:40.680 Sure. You know, back when Tupac was shot in Las Vegas, there was no traffic cameras. Even the video

00:51:46.760 that we see during the fight between these two at the MGM, it's so grainy, you can barely even make out

00:51:52.600 images. So technology's come so far. You'd have cell phone videos, traffic cameras, all types of

00:51:59.160 things that we could have utilized more effectively had we had that technology 20 years ago. And it would

00:52:05.800 have been easier to and faster to figure out who it was. Yeah, absolutely. If you had the technology

00:52:09.480 we have today. I believe so. So how about Keefe D, the fact that he's going around talking and he's

00:52:13.880 you know, saying a lot of different things right now in many different interviews. Can he get himself

00:52:19.000 in trouble with Las Vegas PD going after him for what he's saying? Absolutely. So his initial confession to

00:52:24.840 us was done under what's known as a proffer session. It's a it's an agreement between his attorney, him and

00:52:30.920 his attorney and the prosecution, in this case, the U.S. Attorney's Office, where he can disclose

00:52:37.160 everything he knows about a crime, answer all of our questions truthfully, but we can't use his own self

00:52:43.640 incriminating statements against him. It's called kind of queen for a day. You cannot use your own

00:52:48.840 self-incriminating statements against yourself. You can't use it against the individual. Correct.

00:52:54.360 Now that doesn't mean that he has immunity. That just simply means he's, we can't use his own

00:53:01.640 testimony against him. If other evidence or other people. Are you serious? So if a person says,

00:53:05.880 I did kill that person, you can't use that against the person? Under the unique conditions of this

00:53:10.600 agreement, this proffer agreement. Under the unique conditions of disagreement. Right. I got it. Not just the

00:53:14.520 average person. Of course, no. It's this agreement that he's made. It's a particular agreement having

00:53:20.280 to do with the fact that we had a bunch of narcotics. Fair enough. That makes sense. Yeah. That makes

00:53:23.640 sense. And then, and then any. But to follow up with you, I'm sorry to interrupt, but the statements

00:53:28.840 that he's made publicly after that, the ones that are not under our proffer agreement, he's gone on BET,

00:53:34.120 he's gone on Vlad TV, he's gone on all types of different platforms and tells the story about his

00:53:40.200 involvement, the involvement of his nephew, the story as I've explained it to you. He's confessed

00:53:46.360 to it multiple times now. And we're all sitting here kind of dumbfounded why Las Vegas hasn't reeled

00:53:53.000 him in and dealt with him. When you say, we, who is we? You and everybody that's involved in this case?

00:54:00.760 Yeah. Okay.

00:54:01.320 Fans, other investigators, advocates for, you know, for these gentlemen.

00:54:06.280 So is that an indirect way of hinting to him that stop talking and just kind of

00:54:09.960 go live your life and stop talking about the stories that's only going to get one person in

00:54:13.400 trouble and it's him? No, I, I'm just talking about, you know, go out there. And, uh, you know,

00:54:19.400 because again, I think that the story that he's revealing is for all intent, you know, he's,

00:54:23.480 he puts some little twists on it, but, uh, you know, he's ultimately explaining what happened.

00:54:30.040 I believe that Las Vegas PD and the LAPD, based on the evidence that we have currently,

00:54:35.960 should clear the cases and set history, right? You know, these men, their cases are not unsolved.

00:54:41.080 They're unprosecuted.

00:54:42.680 Unprosecuted, not unsolved, unprosecuted. How big of a difference is the personality

00:54:47.480 between them two? I know they grew up in the same place. How big of a difference in personality

00:54:51.160 do they have?

00:54:51.640 Uh, quite, quite different.

00:54:53.160 Okay.

00:54:53.800 Um, in person, they, they can both be somewhat charming. Um, you know, sitting down and talking to

00:54:58.920 Keithy D, he was cordial and respectful and, uh, and, and truthful. Um, but at the,

00:55:05.160 there's this whole other side to him as there is to him. Um, what makes these guys dangerous

00:55:10.680 is not who they are. It's who they know. It's the guys that they can influence to go out and commit

00:55:16.680 the crimes and do the shootings. So, you know, these guys as shot callers are dangerous by the nature of

00:55:22.520 who they affiliate themselves.

00:55:23.640 Got it. They call the shots. Somebody has got to go handle it.

00:55:25.880 Right.

00:55:26.280 Last thing here, F. Gary Gray. What involvement does he have with this whole thing here?

00:55:30.840 So, uh, F. Gary Gray, uh, was producing a show called Straight Outta Compton, basically

00:55:37.080 the feature film showing the development and life of NWA. He was, uh, going to have a character within

00:55:45.000 this feature film of Suge Knight. Suge Knight felt that he owes him money for using his image.

00:55:51.000 And so he began to show up at the set in Compton when they were shooting the feature.

00:55:55.560 And kind of threatening people around F. Gary Gray.

00:56:00.600 So F. Gary Gray and other people involved in the production, they get ahold of a guy named Terry

00:56:06.040 Carter. They know Terry Carter. He's one of those guys from the neighborhood everybody respects.

00:56:10.920 He's a guy that can go in and kind of mitigate a situation. And so he goes and tries to meet with

00:56:16.360 Suge Knight down at a hamburger stand, not too far from the set. And Suge Knight and another

00:56:21.960 individual that came from the set, a guy named Clay Sloan, get into a fight. And Clay is hitting

00:56:28.040 Suge through the window of his truck. Suge backs up and runs over Clay and almost kills him. And then

00:56:33.880 he pulls forward and runs over Terry Carter and kills him. So you can pull this video up on YouTube.

00:56:40.120 It's, it's a very graphic video of him being run over and killed. Ultimately, he gets prosecuted for

00:56:46.520 that vehicular manslaughter and receives a 28 year sentence, which he's currently serving. And for

00:56:52.120 all intent and purpose, that's a, that's a life sentence. That's a life sentence for someone like

00:56:55.320 him. Have you ever had a sit down with him face to face? Or no, I've conducted tons of surveillance

00:57:00.360 with him, listened to phone calls with him and, you know, obviously seen all of his interviews,

00:57:04.920 but I've never actually sat down face to face with Suge. When you do the surveillance,

00:57:08.760 does he sound like a pretty firm guy? Meaning if he wants something to be done to people?

00:57:13.880 He's a tremendous manipulator. Okay. Tremendous manipulator.

00:57:18.840 Nobody knows that better than Reggie Wright Jr. who's out there vocally talking about his history

00:57:23.640 with death row, his involvement with Suge Knight. And you know, he's, you know, he's got a really

00:57:28.520 interesting story to tell also. So let me ask a question, Greg, at this point, everybody here,

00:57:34.120 can anyone be litigated today that hasn't yet been? Not really. The only, the only possibilities I see

00:57:45.800 is that these guys created work environments that led to their murders. And so there is a, you know,

00:57:56.440 there's a civil situation where when you create such a hostile environment within the workplace,

00:58:03.400 and then somebody suffers harm because of that, that's, that's an actionable thing. Of course,

00:58:10.040 it would have to take his mother to kind of perceive that and see things that way.

00:58:14.360 But it's still a long shot. It's not like it's a long shot. It's a long shot. If they couldn't do

00:58:20.440 anything, his mother with the 400 million, and after all this, it's probably going to be a long

00:58:25.640 shot to do that. It really is. But keeping in mind that also that, you know, in a criminal court,

00:58:31.000 you're trying to prove something beyond a shadow of a doubt. In civil court, the burden of proof is

00:58:35.960 that much lower, and it's just more of a preponderance of the evidence.

00:58:39.800 So what's to come next with you, Greg, with this story? Is this story pretty much done for you? I

00:58:43.480 mean, obviously, it turned into, the book turned into a documentary, turned into a series. I know you

00:58:47.400 had a couple scenes as the bartender in the Netflix series. What's to come next with this story?

00:58:52.520 Anything to expect? Not really. You know, like I said, the majority of these guys have all met their

00:58:58.440 demise. And there's not much more to say about it. We've got to the bottom of it. And I think we can

00:59:07.240 conclusively and definitively say, this is what happened to these two individuals.

00:59:12.200 And this is the historical, factual case.

00:59:15.640 Well, I can tell you one thing. I was in high school when this happened. And I was a die,

00:59:20.040 I mean, I'm a diehard Tupac fan. At the time, as a kid, we were listening to him.

00:59:24.280 I got him into painting. And I've been on a flight with him before. I almost sold him an insurance

00:59:28.520 policy. But the insurance carriers will never approve. I had a meeting with him one time

00:59:32.440 through one of my associates at the Beverly Hills Hilton. And I said, I can't sell this

00:59:37.400 guy on insurance policy. Who's going to insure Shug now?

00:59:39.400 Yeah. You know, it's a very interesting story. And, you know, I know obviously a lot of time

00:59:43.160 was put into it to investigate this. So thank you for your service to do that and get to the bottom

00:59:47.640 of it and tell the story and, you know, turn it into a book and a movie now. And outside of that,

00:59:52.360 you know, if you haven't watched the series on Netflix called Unsolved, if you haven't watched it,

00:59:57.880 one, go watch it. I think it's 10 episodes. 10 episode limited series. Yeah. 10 episode

01:00:03.160 limited series. But Greg, we appreciate you coming out, man. This was great. And this visual

01:00:07.000 was a very different approach. I really like the way it ended up happening. Yeah. I think this is

01:00:10.600 the most effective way to tell the story. It's a convoluted and complicated story, but at least

01:00:15.080 this helps to put faces to names and put it together. I agree. This is a complete different

01:00:20.200 way of looking at it. Absolutely. Thanks everybody for listening. And by the way,

01:00:23.320 if you haven't already subscribed to Valuetainment on iTunes, please do so. Give us a five star,

01:00:28.920 write a review if you haven't already. And if you have any questions for me that you may have,

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01:00:37.320 Patrick VidDavid. And I actually do respond back when you snap me or send me a message on Instagram.

01:00:43.320 With that being said, have a great day today. Take care, everybody. Bye-bye.

Valuetainment - November 15, 2019

Episode 391： Tupac & Biggie’s Murder Solved By Greg Kading

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